Truth Wanted 08.25 06-20-2025 with ObjectivelyDan and Jamie the Blind Limey

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Why, Well, that's the question in it. It's one of
the first questions we ask as children, over and over again,
usually ending up at the dead end of just because.
But I'd like to focus on it a little more.
I'd like to ask, because I've been at this for
a couple of years, I've become jaded. They've heard so
many arguments and so many viewpoints and worldviews that I'm

(00:25):
having trouble understanding sometimes why people call into these shows.
So I would like to ask you, why do you call?
Is it for acceptance, vindication, argument, clout, comfort, education? What
reason do you have to have these conversations with us?
As much as we want to have them with you, Now,

(00:48):
we are bound to believe that your beliefs to you
are true, that what you perceive to be true is
to you truth. But I'd like to ask you, if
you're calling us and you're not trying to convince us
of this truth, then why bother? If you don't have

(01:08):
the courage of your convictions, then there isn't really a
place for you here. But if you have a belief
that you hold to be true, no matter how fringe
or personal, or esoteric or weird, we want to hear
about it. We want to hear you try and convince
us of that truth. So call in and convince us
if you can, because the show starts now.

Speaker 2 (01:34):
Hello, Hello everybody, and welcome back to another episode of
Truth Wanted. I am your host, Objectively Dan, and this
is the live calling show that happens every single week
Friday's at seven pm Central Time, where we talk to
people about what they believe and why. If you'd like
to call us, you can certainly do that numbers five one, two,
nine nine one ninety two four two, or you can
call it through your computer ed timey. That's cc slash

(01:56):
call t W as always, Truth Wanted is a product
of the Atheist Green of Austin, a five A one
C three nonprofit organization dedicated to the promotion of atheism,
critical thinking, secular humanism, and the separation of religion and government.
In every single week, I always try to have a
special guest with me. This week's no Devid. It's Jamie
the Blind BlimE me, Jamie. Welcome back to the pod.

Speaker 1 (02:17):
That's special in scare quotes, and I'll leave you to
decide what that means special.

Speaker 2 (02:22):
But everybody is special, and you are special. Jamie, that
is that is true?

Speaker 3 (02:27):
That is true.

Speaker 1 (02:27):
Thing You're tapping into your cousin, Bob Ross's cousin persona.

Speaker 2 (02:32):
I know you have a great perspective and that's why
you're on the show. And I think other commenters would
agree with that, and other callers will agree with that
once they call into the show, which lines are open
right now, and they should do that, so, you know,
just saying.

Speaker 1 (02:45):
Well, I'll drop this sort of the humility a little
bit because I do. I am glad of that. I'd
said this on TikTok that I've made recently, and I'm
happy of the platforms that I've been given to express
my express my viewpoints. And I do feel appreciated by
the ACA so as much as I can give myself

(03:07):
as much stick as I like, and I do, and
everyone at the ACA has imposter syndrome. Nobody thinks they're
the king of the crop, no matter how popular or.

Speaker 2 (03:18):
Wish there I think, I'm sure, Actually I.

Speaker 1 (03:20):
Think, why must you turn a show with the word
truth into it into a cathedral of lies?

Speaker 2 (03:29):
No, that's true. I think we have a lot of
great hosts who are exceptional and very humble at their
own skills and comfort a great variety of backgrounds, including yourself, Jamie,
So don't say yourself too short.

Speaker 4 (03:42):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (03:42):
Humility keeps you sharp and keeps you open minded, and
that's what we want to be on this show. Like
I said in the intro, please, if you believe something,
it doesn't matter how weird you think we think it
might be. We want to know the truth. So if
you think something's true, honestly truly think it's true. God
I said, the are true so many times it stunts
to lose meanings.

Speaker 2 (04:04):
Yeah. Absolutely, And on that note, we should talk about
are we want the Truth segment, which is our sayd
that we put out there every single week. We're asking
you guys a question or a prompt and we want
your responses to it. I'm gonna have Kelly come back
onto the screen here and introduce that for us. What's up, Kelly?

Speaker 5 (04:22):
Hey, what's going on? I'm muting my microphone so I
don't want to do it again?

Speaker 2 (04:28):
Hell yeah, hell yeah, all right, Kelly? What was last
week's prompt?

Speaker 5 (04:33):
The last week's prompt was, uh, you know what ell wrong?
Answers only? What should the title of Jesus' autobiography be? Yes,
that's what it was. I as soon as I write it,
I went, oh, yeah, that's what it is. And we
got some really good answers this week. Number three from
Godwin seven, I didn't know you changed your number the

(04:53):
title of Jesus's autobiography Matthew, Mark, John and Luke I
Am My Father.

Speaker 2 (05:00):
Which is an interesting title. And I don't know what
the Matthew are supposed to be, just just naming the
Gospels or what do you think that part of it's
supposed to be.

Speaker 5 (05:11):
I thought it might have been a plan sign on
a different book, but a reference that we're just yes.

Speaker 2 (05:17):
That's what I'm saying. It sounds like you're doing like
a Beatles thing or something that I don't know, like
they're trying to name all the names. I'm not sure
about that one, but great answer regardless.

Speaker 5 (05:25):
And from number two from the Amazing Incredible The Person
We Love the Most Miranda Runsberger, the title of Jesus's autobiography,
Who's My Daddy?

Speaker 2 (05:35):
An excellent answer, excellent answer, No, No, it's really good.
Thank you for that one.

Speaker 5 (05:44):
And number one the number one answer from Bagel Bites
Jesus's autobiography Brose Before hose my Walk with the Disciples.

Speaker 2 (05:52):
Another banger, another great one. Thank you Bagel Bytes for
this one. This is a great prompt. Those are good ones.

Speaker 1 (06:01):
I have to steal one as a reference from the internet.
They forgot him.

Speaker 2 (06:08):
Yeah, that's another good one as well. But yeah, it's uh,
I don't know. It was a great prompt. I was
excited to see the answers for that one. But now
that we're at the next week, Kelly, we have to
have you know, next week's prompts.

Speaker 5 (06:20):
So yes, yeah, So what do you not want to
be in the middle of when the Apocalypse starts?

Speaker 2 (06:27):
Yes? And before we Okay, let me just put this
out there, okay, because make sure it's not that we
can read on the show. I'm just saying this goes
out to a lot of different people. I'm not saying
we're a family show. I'm just saying, you know, like,
come on, just be reasonable here.

Speaker 6 (06:43):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (06:43):
So I'm putting that out there. But yeah, that's my qualifier.
What what not to be in the middle of when
the Apocalypse starts? Jamie on this one well.

Speaker 1 (06:52):
As a child of the nineties and a fan of
the Roland American Dean devn Uva. My answer is is
I don't want to be stuck in the middle of
traffic during the stuffs. The apublics as well.

Speaker 2 (07:05):
You're absolutely right. Every single Apocalypse movie that has people
stuck in traffic, like, I'm pretty sure eighty percent of
the time they don't make it. What's the exception, like
the beginning of Resident Evil too, maybe I don't know.
Every other time it's not good.

Speaker 5 (07:18):
Yeah, and all the other movies have like all dam
bandoned directed cars on the highway. Yeah, I'm pretty sure
that's not where you want to be.

Speaker 2 (07:25):
Yeah, that's a good one. What about kell you got one?

Speaker 4 (07:27):
You know.

Speaker 5 (07:27):
I had a really tough time with this because I started,
like I asked my son because I couldn't think of
something new and had an orgy, and I was like,
I don't know, that might be a great place to
go when you're at the end, you know, right. So
I was having a hard time. I was thinking, if
it's something pleasurable, I wouldn't really want it to end,
But if it was something that sucked, I might be
glad it was over, right. So it's so I was

(07:48):
thinking something wrong, something mediocre with being stuck in traffic
was perfect being stuck inside the waiting off in the
waiting room of a doctor's office, something totally mediocre like that, right.

Speaker 2 (07:59):
Okay, I can see the angle there now, I know.
I just said, we got to make it. I don't know,
not it's safe for work, but just you know, but
it would be funny if you were tied up, you know,
sort of a pulp fiction style thing where you're just
kind of tied to a chair or something in the
middle of something, and then the apocalypse happens and nobody
can get you out that will, you know, get in

(08:20):
the middle of it. But that's where my head. But
I don't I think you guys at home can do
better than all three of us. So give us your
best yell responses and we will read the best answers
next week. Thank you so much Kelly for being our
back up post today, and we'll maybe see you if
we have issues. I don't know, it happens sometimes, so yeah,
hopefully hopefully we want see again, unless you know you

(08:42):
want to come to the after show, which Kelly will
be there today Discord After Show A little early pluged
for that. But anyway, back to you, Jamie, Jamie, what's
What's what's been happening in Jamie's world? What's on your mind? Bud?

Speaker 1 (08:53):
Well, there are things that I can only really refer
to obliquely. I've been more sort of getting out and
getting active and be boots on the ground, because one
thing we did do was we went and held up
signs and said no, please, don't put the Ten Commandments
in schools, and they did anyway, but you know, we tried.

(09:14):
You know, just because of fight seems hopeless, it doesn't
mean it's not worth having. And other than that, I've
just been sort of living my life and getting ready
for you know, doing the shows. I've been doing a
little bit more in the background, getting ready for the
back cruise. We're going to talk about that later, and
cooking more. I'm becoming the sauce I'm becoming the sauce boss.

(09:35):
I'm learning all different kinds of sauce making techniques. So yeah,
and I made a homemade custard tark yesterday, so that was, Yeah,
that's pretty good. I'm gonna have to see if I
can find I want to try and find vegan recipes
so I can make you something down because that'd be cool.

Speaker 2 (09:50):
It's appreciating for sure.

Speaker 1 (09:52):
I mean if I just left the eggs out of
the banana bread that I made, then that would have
been fine.

Speaker 2 (09:56):
Yeah, banana bread recipes, that's definitely a thing. That's cool. Man.
I'm ha before you there. Yeah, there's a let's just
say the news hasn't been you know, the news has
been cheery for a while, and every week we're like, yeah,
the news hasn't been great, and I feel like the
next week happens and it's even worse. Like for me,

(10:16):
I was talking about this before the show, like, you know,
they just introduced a new generative AI tool at our
work that's like custom built by our company to help
us with stuff, and like it's not taking my job now,
but what about ten years from now? You know what
I mean. It's like, what is this future going to be?
Like I don't know. And you know, when I was

(10:37):
a kid, it was like, oh, yeah, the future is
gonna be awesome. We're gonna have robots to everything. And
now it's like, oh no, we're gonna have robots to everything.

Speaker 6 (10:45):
You know.

Speaker 2 (10:45):
Like it it's not it's not great, it's not good.

Speaker 1 (10:48):
But I am like this far away from turning fiction
into uh, into reality, start wearing red robes, calling anything
with artificial intelligence and an abominable intelligence and screaming techno heresy.

Speaker 2 (11:02):
Yeah. Well, you know, our public question today was something
on the lines of, you know, can AI be moral
or not?

Speaker 7 (11:08):
Right?

Speaker 2 (11:09):
I have morality? Even? Yeah, first of all, obviously, you know,
kind of a loaded term on that, but like, are
we going to have to try AI in a court
of law or one day? Like are we going to
have to judge it based on like what is the
what's going on here?

Speaker 1 (11:24):
I don't know, we're talking in the back room. And
basically the whole like the the ethical routines that are
trying to program into drive a loss cars is essentially
can we make into an algorithm the trolley problem? And
it's like, yeah, well.

Speaker 2 (11:38):
There's a video that went viral recently. I can't remember
which school, but it was one of these Ivy League
schools of you know, they had a graduation ceremony and
like they showed a shot, you know, they show the
kids walking on stage and there was a kid like
without his laptop showing Chad Gpt on there like celebrating
when he got his degree, like implying that like Chad

(11:59):
Gpt helped him, you know, with his degree area was
kind of celebrating that. It's just like, yeah, that's like
that's the thing. Huh. That's the thing that people in
college have access to and are probably usually and you know,
I might have been using it too, I don't know,
But like what do we do about that?

Speaker 1 (12:16):
Well, I'm just old enough to have remembered and had
done the book research in an actual physical library for
point in the university, and like that seems like an
alien concept now, Like yeah.

Speaker 2 (12:28):
See I at least got to google stuff, you know,
and that was that was helpful, I'd say, but like,
you know, still had to read and cite the things
that I'm reading right or else it wasn't gonna make sense.
I mean, I guess, you know, teacher's not going to
necessarily look up all your sources. You could like fake
it or whatever, but like there was still some effort
involved in that process, you know. Nowadays, I don't know,

(12:50):
I don't know, and it's not great. I've also been
reading stories about people who are having like really, how
should I put this, Let's say health not help healthy
relationships with AI. There's a suburb that I look at
where it's just people posting about like, oh, I've discovered
percursive AI. These are all of my conversations I keep

(13:10):
having with them, and they talk about how they have
conversations with the for like hours every day, you know,
and I don't know. It's real weird. We're into a
real weird time with that.

Speaker 1 (13:21):
Yeah, I mean considering that, I praise technology for enabling
human connections in places where they otherwise wouldn't be. Like
during the pandemic, I got into VR and VR chat
just to be with people in the even in a
virtual space, and that kept me saying, yes, I couldn't

(13:42):
go anywhere, I couldn't do anything. I was like based,
and I was in a like a three hundred square
foot shoe box apartment. These four walls felt like a prison.
And to put on a magic magic facebox that transports
you to another world full of people dressed as giant
cats was a relief from that Monotoonly.

Speaker 2 (14:00):
That makes a lot of sense because you're talking to
other people and there's a real community there, Like there's
some people who have been playing with the same World
of Warcraft group for like twenty years and maybe don't
hang out at all in person, but like the connections
built there are totally real, right, But when it comes
to just an AI, it's just it's just not a person, right,
Like it's just not it's just generating stuff. I don't know,

(14:23):
it seems different.

Speaker 1 (14:24):
Yeah, I mean, I don't want to be a lud.
I don't want to be throwing my that my clogs
with sabot into the gears if not necessary. But this
is the first technological advancement where the more I learn
about it, the less I trust it, because it's just
it just feels like we're stealing human thoughts and words,
mashing them up and serving them back to you in

(14:46):
a sort of repackaged sludge like a virtual chicken nugget,
and and destroying the environment in the process. It's like
this doesn't seem to be much good about this. But anyway,
maybe I'm mister done sayer.

Speaker 2 (15:00):
Look, I don't think you do. Say. It's more just
like this is the thing, it exists, now, we got
to deal with it. I just think that's the way
to go, right, Because like cars are a thing now, right,
that wasn't always a thing. Planes are a thing. I
don't know, like lots of technologies that ostensibly took other
people's jobs. I mean, that's what the original Lightites were about.
They were they were concerned about technology taking their jobs.

(15:24):
I mean, so there's a real concern there, right, So
we just got to do the same thing. I think
otherwise the people with the you know, ruling class interests
will use it for their own things.

Speaker 1 (15:36):
And here's an interesting quandary for any theist out there.
Do you think that AI could deliver good, a decent sermon.

Speaker 2 (15:42):
Yeah, I've thought about that too. I've challenged this because
can in a I give a sermon that is like
like like like I don't want to say holy, but
it can be inspired by the Holy Spirit. Because that's
the thing in Christianity right when people are speaking, they
are speaking because they're inspired or they have the Holy
Spirit imbued them. If you can have a language model

(16:04):
that's just change trained on every single time a Christians
ever said that about their speech and they take those speeches,
does that make it imbued with the Holy Spirit? I
don't know. I don't know the logistics of.

Speaker 1 (16:15):
That, but it would be interested. I mean, if you
believe that the Lord works in all in all way,
isn't that the universe is under his command, then he
already is, since everything's inspired by the Holy Spirit in
some some standpoints. But anyway, I'm not an ecumenical experts.

Speaker 2 (16:33):
We're reconstructing, we're reconstructing signifiers to make meaningful languages, just
by the rules of grammar, right, and syntax. That's that's
that's what's happening there, right. So, like a video is
recreating audio and video like in a way that's not
real in a sense, right, it's a it's a computer
capturing that. So a large language model is kind of

(16:56):
the same thing in that regard, right, where it's like
it's it's just capturing or attempting to recreate a facility
of what's there. So I don't know, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (17:06):
I would I would draw a distinction between because like
there's this video which is a recording of something that
actually happened and is a fact siambility of the event
as it was, and then generative AI is a new
thing built from the building blocks of that, which I
think is so it's not a facsimity and it's not
a copy. It's a reconstruction. But anyway, I mean only
slightly off topic, I think maybe. I don't know.

Speaker 2 (17:28):
I don't know. I thought a good topic. I mean,
it's what I've been interesting in lately. I think it's
on a lot of people's minds. There's more depressing topics
we could talk about, you know, so I'd like to
stay on one depressing topic at all time. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (17:42):
And it does to truth because I mean a lot
of people are going to these large language models to
to to ascertain what is true. It's like I asked GROK,
I asked chat GPT and it said this, and I'm like, and.

Speaker 2 (17:57):
Yeah, so that is going to be a new way
that we're going to have to argue with people because
they're going to have to They're going to take what
we said and put it into chat GPT and wait
for the response and then reach obbygt's response to us, Like,
I can definitely see that happening, if it hasn't happened
to us already when we talked to people.

Speaker 1 (18:16):
Yeah, I think there are I mean, there are definitely
non evil applications for these tools. I mean I know
that a friend of the friend of the show and
host Forest Alcy likes to have his. He's like, you
use it as a proofreader and asks ask the AI, like,
is there anything I'm missing? Are there any glaring flaws?
Am I committing any fallacies? Et cetera. And it's good

(18:37):
at picking those out and then you make the adjustments yourself.
I'd be interested to I mean, you'd be kind of
harrowing to feed in all of the conversations I've had
on these shows into a large language model and then
ask it, where have I been an idiot? And it's
like here, here, here.

Speaker 2 (18:57):
Yeah, I'm really curious to see just what human beings,
how human beings are going to feel about AI in
the next like ten twenty thirty years, what what that
relationships can look like, because it's it's about to it's
about to change, I think, in real time, and we're
seeing it for sure. But on that note, maybe it's
time that we talk to some real humans on the phone.

Speaker 1 (19:17):
What do you say, Well, as far as we can
trust that they are real humans, let's do it.

Speaker 2 (19:22):
I guess that's true. I guess we can't one hundred
pent verify that.

Speaker 1 (19:25):
But road, that's a road to sollipism, and I don't
want to go down it.

Speaker 2 (19:30):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, right, let's just let's
just keep it moving. But before we get to our calls,
I have to think the wonderful people that support the
show on the Patreon. I want to thank everybody that
donates on the Patreon, but specifically I want to give
a shout out to our patron of the week. So
this week's Patron of the Week is going to be

(19:51):
that Dion Leche. Thank you so much, Dion, and thank
you to everybody that donates on the patreon. You guys
are a for thatot. Further Ado, let's get on with
the show.

Speaker 4 (20:05):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (20:05):
And I am talking like this because I have the
calls on a different tab. But now we're going to
talk to the folks on the show. We have a
couple of people here. I think I want to start
with Tucker, who is calling from Iowa. Tucker, you are
live on truth. Want of what's going on?

Speaker 4 (20:23):
Hi, guys? Hello, Hello, excuse me? Hello, just real quick, Jamie,
I want to it you know, I'm I'm with you.
I distrust AI for the same reason because the sources
that it's learning from, it's it's everything out and it's
not all good. It's not all that. Yeah, So that's
why I don't trust it.

Speaker 1 (20:43):
So good on your mate, go ahead.

Speaker 4 (20:48):
No, I wanted to be in the show. Notes. Uh,
you had highlighted church separation of church and state, and
I think that the separation of church and state argument
could be very valuable in continuing to push back against

(21:08):
taking away you know, women's right to choose. Because yeah,
there are some people who are not religious that don't
are against abortion, that's very true. But I feel like
the vast majority are trying to ban it based on
religious beliefs. It's not just Christianity. I mean, if you

(21:31):
doubt that, just take a drive past your local Planned
Parenthood clinic any day of the week. What you see
outside their doors.

Speaker 2 (21:40):
I don't doubt that. You know, a lot of people
who are pushing for it are doing it for religious motivations.
What I do doubt is whether it could be a
solid defense on the Supreme Court level, because there have been,
as you mentioned, secular arguments, sort of anti abortion arguments
to be made, and I think that would you from

(22:01):
what I've seen the cursory research I've done on a
lot of these decisions, those are the ones that do
get put forward. They never say, oh, we're doing this
because of the Bible. I mean sometimes they do actually
in the state legislation and stuff, but as far as
like Supreme Court stuff, from what I've seen, they do
say like, no, there's secular reasons because X, Y and z,
you know, and then that does become a bit of
a pickle.

Speaker 4 (22:20):
Well, I think we have to pay attention to the
debate and the people who are debating, because you know,
while there may be other arguments put forth, we've got
to really kind of commit to doing the work, you know,
try to because there are some wallmakers that just don't care.
They come flat out and say, you know, we need

(22:43):
to do this because God is against it. And you
see it. You see it in every state legislature, and
you this is I think this is something that can
be started because we need for this to co to
coal us. We really need people that are willing to

(23:04):
do the work to hold the first on the on
the first first tier, hold the legislative's feet fire, and
if they are stupid enough to lean on religion even
a little bit, push back hard, very hard. And then
so we need to make the media out let me
just finish this real quick and I'll shut up. We

(23:25):
also need to, uh, the media has to do better.
The media has to take back their responsibility.

Speaker 1 (23:32):
Okay, So here's my question. It's a couple of things
of thinking, right. Okay, firstly, we try our best here
at the ACA, and there's organizations that you work with
like Freedom from Religion Foundation and that kind of stuff.
Who are you know, boots on the ground in the
in the capitol buildings, home signs, going to meetings, calling representatives,

(23:53):
stuff like that. So people are doing it. And in
an ideal world, yes, religious belief I would not be
part of an intrinsic part of the legislative decision making process,
and it would be based on evidence and science and
ethics and things like that. But in the real world

(24:13):
right now, at least, there are plenty of religious people
out there, and even if they're not explicit in the
choices they're making because of their religious beliefs, there may
be implicit religious leanings in the way that they make
their choices. It's one of the reasons why we champion
critical thinking. So what I would ask is, yes, I
agree with you on everything you said in terms of

(24:34):
the observations that you make with that. Yes, people should
be fighting the good fight. Yes, the media should be
more truthful than that kind of thing. But what my
question is, Tucker, is how do we actually do that.
It's all well and good pointing out a problem when
but what we're looking for is solutions, actionable solutions. We've

(24:58):
got a few, we're always looking for more. And the
other problem is is that, much like the entirety of history,
religion is often used as a justification for for other things.
I am a believer in the theory that one of
the major reasons why anti abortion legislation is being pushed
and now they're going after things like contraception and stuff,

(25:22):
is that the rich elite, they don't care about God.
What they care about is having a bunch of uneducated
drones to basically work slave wages in their factories. So
and to have a broad, easily manipulated proletariat to essentially
keep them in their their status of wealth. Throw more

(25:42):
bodies on the pile. So we are fighting interests that
have unimaginable resources behind them. So I am absolutely open
to any suggestions on how we can fight that.

Speaker 6 (25:54):
Well.

Speaker 4 (25:54):
I think we need to take a mago approach.

Speaker 2 (25:57):
Please elaborate.

Speaker 4 (25:58):
Yeah, we need to open up the fire hose and
throw everything at him, and that means some deep pocket
elite are going to have to start walking the walk
and it's just talk talk. I am sick and tired
of Democrat leadership being so careful that they end up

(26:20):
screwing us in the end. Joe Biden and his Attorney general,
we're so fucking careful to not to not appear partisan
that we end up with Trump in the White House again.

Speaker 2 (26:35):
Yeah, yeah, Tucker. You know, we're limited on our political commentary,
as you know, because we're the product of a five
one three I should Yeah. What I can say, what
I can't agree with you is everything loss change in
this country by one big mechanism, and that is lobbying.
Right for better or worse. Lobbying is what happens for

(26:58):
every antiortion lobby the group. There is other groups that
are working for the rights of women's health. Right groups
like Freedom from Religion do lobbying work like that's also
part of what they do. And it is a kind
of activism that whether it's you know, whether it's acceptable

(27:18):
or not, is the status quo. The case is how
change gets done. So to me, the most material effective
change people can do is you know, making whatever contributions
people feel necessary to groups that they feel that they're
in support of. That's really the only thing we can do.
That's just how the laws set up. It's not set

(27:38):
up so that you and me can go over to
the White House and be like, I think things to
change and well you don't like it here, you know,
then it just be chaos. Right, So, for better or worse,
I don't know. That seems to be my only option
is supporting groups like that. I don't know, Jamie, what
do you think.

Speaker 1 (27:53):
I just wanted to reiterate that actually I'm right with
you there, Dan, And I'm also just to say that
I agree in that policy over partisanship is literally what
we're all about in terms of five oh one c. Three.
It doesn't matter the name of the person, the face
of the face that they have, the party that they
belong to. If they are promoting policy that is in

(28:13):
alignment with our goals, well like I will support them.
It's one of the reasons why we work with religious organizations.
You think, why would there an atheist organization work with
religious organizations because we're all about the same things. I
can argue with people from places like Texas Impact, which
is a which has religious components about the epistemology of

(28:33):
whether their God belief is rational or not. But we
can have that conversation after we've stopped them from putting
the Ten Commandments in schools or banning abortion because God
said so, or legislating against the LGBT because to lay
with another man is an abomination in front of God,
or any of that bollocks. So yeah, once we fought

(28:53):
the good fight and everyone has the luxury of having
like God does go be doing the real though, we'll
have those conversations. But until that point, I will link
arm in arm with rabbi and priest and imam and
and you know, Guru, as long as they are aligned

(29:15):
with the goals of humanism and the separation of religion
and government.

Speaker 2 (29:19):
Yeah, yeah, I know you're bringing a good point there, because, like, yes,
religious interests are very much in the conversation when it
comes to abortion right and the laws that take effect
with that. But at the same time, I don't want
to play the atheist card when I'm having a conversation
with people about that, because that adds a whole extra

(29:40):
baggage to the conversation that I just am not. I
don't think you're going to meet people in the middle
with I think you can meet people in the middle
of our people who have had pregnancy scares, people who
have had issues with their own health and have had
to seek treatment at places like plan Planned Parenthood or
other healthcare you know places. Right, I think like that

(30:02):
kind of push and that's what a lot of people
try to do is a really good thing because you're
just going to relate to people more on those issues
than that, and also make the case that, yes, this
is a woman's health issue, rather than just oh, it's
a it's a Christian issue. That's what they want you
to think, right, that it is a Christian issue. But
there are lots of Christians that are actually okay with abortion,

(30:23):
and if not outright supported as a necessary procedure, you know,
a process, rather when you know when it comes to it.
So I don't know more than one ways to eat
an elephant. I guess what do you think?

Speaker 4 (30:37):
The only one who atheists are not the only ones
who support the separation of church and state. And I
didn't say it. That's also true about yeah, and I agree,
I agree, you know, you take your allies where you
can find them, absolutely, but there are. I think there
are many, many opportunities and we need to start being

(31:01):
more creative about finding them.

Speaker 2 (31:03):
Yeah, yeah, maybe so. And yeah, you're right, you know,
I shouldn't characterize your argument as just for atheist right,
but separation from church and state. I don't know that that.
I see where you're going with that. Do you see
where you're going with that? Because there are people who
definitely are doing this for their religious reasons. Right, it
is religious uh you know, doctrine that makes that happen,

(31:23):
But you know, it is what it is. I don't know.
We're on the same page, Tucker, We're both we're both
picking up what we're putting down here, I think. So,
I don't know, there's no need to elaborate there anything
else you want to talk about with us, though, while
we got you on the line.

Speaker 4 (31:38):
Yeah, just one last point. Back in the nineties, the
Human Rights Campaign kept shushing the trans community because they
said it's not worth Basically, it was that, uh, you know,
not right now. Wait, you know, wait until this happens,
not right now, Wait until we get you know, protection

(31:59):
from being fired, not right now, wait until we get
domestic partner rights. Not right now? Okay, And That's what
I see happening here with with you know, with that
kind of argument is you know, if not now when and.

Speaker 1 (32:14):
We see yeah, groups that we would all we would
normally or we nominally be aligned with, who are like
saying well we should we should step away from certain
social issues because they're politically unwise or whatever. All we
can do as people and as an organization is to
not towe that line. And we don't. Everyone I know
here at the ACA, myself included, are are thoroughly would

(32:37):
be And it's and it feeds directly into our mission
secular humanism. Humanism, humanism means right, human rights, human rights
are trans rights. Saying that loud and proud as a member.
They don't think I'm going to get in trouble for
saying that. I know that because we're going to Tyler
Pride this next weekend to set up a booth.

Speaker 2 (32:56):
Tucker. Tucker's trying to make a metaphor here and saying
that that that conversation is what they're seeing in this conversation,
which is about actually, I'm not entirely sure because are
you saying that we're not support I mean, we definitely
support people being atheists. And stuff. I'm not I'm not
sure where that go.

Speaker 7 (33:11):
No.

Speaker 4 (33:12):
No, your your response to my you know, suggestion of
using church and state separation is I understand it, and
I sympathize with it, and in some ways you are right.
But you know, it's like they've got you know, you
know the other side has huge resources, and right now

(33:36):
the political climate just isn't you know. Uh, I'm not
saying the example.

Speaker 2 (33:42):
Well, look, if you don't mind me interrupting, because I
think I think we're talking past each other, because I definitely,
you know, obviously we support church and state separation. What
I think the disconnect is people who are pro uh
uh pro life the position right they they literally think
you're killing a human being right like that. I think

(34:04):
a lot of them seriously do consider that, and that
that kind of argument doesn't have anything to do with
God necessarily. I mean, if you want bringing souls into it,
that's fine. I'm just saying I think I think we
can disavow people of these kinds of dramatic beliefs when
we talk about that, you know, the process that happens
when pregnancy occurs, that don't have anything to do with

(34:24):
the atheism versus Christianity or state versus church stuff, right,
I do think like that that can happen without it.
That's really more of.

Speaker 4 (34:32):
My point understood, and I definitely respect that opinion. My
purpose in bringing up the old human rights campaign position
was at some point to almost any almost any, almost
any viewpoint or or process is going to seem useless.

(34:56):
And IM just hoping that, you know, like I said,
you know, like I was going to close with, I think,
I just think we need to be more creative. And
I'm not saying that every argument should rest on that.
That's what I meant by people need to do the
work and read the legislative transcripts, dig into the backgrounds

(35:16):
of the people lobbying or legislating, and you know, build
a case. And that's really all I wanted to say.

Speaker 2 (35:24):
Gotcha, do you hear you? Yeah, for sure, Tucker. I
appreciate that, And thank you for sharing your perspective on
the show, you know, and I do.

Speaker 4 (35:33):
I do appreciate your I do appreciate you guys's pushback
because you always you always do it constructively and I
always come away thinking about things a little differently.

Speaker 1 (35:43):
So well, great, thank I would I would comment one
thing This is something that my housemate told me we
were talking about certain things, and that we should as
much as we possibly can take ourselves and our egos
out of arguments and make it and and and that
kind of thing, because like, if you have a very personal,

(36:03):
very powerful, passionate standpoint on something, that's a great fuel
and a great motivator. But if someone's making an argument.
I've done this myself many many many times in the past,
where the issue that's on my mind is the most
important issue and the most impressing, and this is the
thing that should be talked about. But if I step

(36:23):
back and take myself out of the equation, that particular
line of argumentation is not currently the most effective. And
yes it does sort of. You know, might say, well,
then you're going to disregard people who have the same
kind of thing, like I said that they're not not
paying attention to trans right specifically during the nineties as
as an allegory for it. But again, like getting frustrated

(36:47):
because you're saying that we should be doing this. Plenty
of people are. It's just that the resources on our
side are dwarfed by those And you did say, yeah, well,
you know, these are these billionaire philanthropist should get their together.
Oh my goodness, if you could find a way to
get like to make that happen, so many organizations like
us will be great. If you get like actual money

(37:08):
behind our arguments, that'd be amazing. But like, how the
heck do you convince a billionaire to throw more than
a few crumbs a thing when it's in their best interests.
I don't know, yes, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (37:24):
Anyway, we do have to We have other callers that
are on the line, and I do want to get
to some other folks here, so I am gonna go
ahead and end this one. But I once again, I
just want to say thanks so much chographer calling it,
and I'm so glad I just respond to your feedback
there that yes, I'm glad that we can have a
healthy push and pull and both of us can can
take something away, because I definitely have taken it away

(37:46):
from you as well when you've called in, So thanks
so much for that, and hope to hear from you
at another time, Jamie, did you know that it's that
time of year again where we're gonna have a back
cruise and everybody's going to hang out on boat or
maybe two. We'll see and a bunch of people are
cut Forrest val Chi will be there, j Mike will

(38:07):
be there. I'm going to be there. So if you
guys want to hang out with us in a party,
it's going to be August sixteenth, twenty twenty five. You
can get your tickets in info a tiny dot cc
slash back Cruise and the tickets sell out fast speaking
which I don't know if my tickets reserved. Somebody bought
a ticket for me. I don't have a ticket. Yeah, yeah,
they've it's been reserved for me in the past. I

(38:28):
hope it's there now. Actually I didn't check in on that.
I need to figure that out.

Speaker 3 (38:31):
Well.

Speaker 1 (38:32):
One of the things you can do if you can't
make is the back cruise yourself, is you can sponsor
a host to go or sponsor a crew member to
go in your stead. We also have early bird tickets
today will sell out quickly. Well, you get a bit
of a scount and some extra a little bit and
bubs and trust. It's wonderful. I have been twice. It's

(38:53):
always been a riot. It's great. This time, our very
own Sophie Spina has taken the reins and will guarantee
that this year finally we will be doing karaoke.

Speaker 2 (39:05):
Oh yeah, that's right, because that Yeah, there's a whole
thing about that. Okay, uh yeah, more information uh at
tiny out cec slashbackers if you want to check that out.
And also if you want to hear our show in
audio only format, there's a way to do that. It
is at tiny dout cc slash a m podcast for
all of the latest ACA shows. But you know, I'm
not going to keep you know, we got outther announcements.

(39:26):
We can keep clean saying for later. Let's keep moving,
Let's keep the show moving. Han, Jamie, I want to
talk to I want to talk to Michelle who is
calling to us from New York. Michelle, you are live
on truth Wanted. What's up? Yeah, Hi guys, you guys
doing doing it good? Michelle, Thank you for calling into
the Truth Wanted today. I know I believe I talked

(39:47):
to you on Talk Heathen before. So cool to hear
that you've you've come on to.

Speaker 6 (39:52):
Here with with Christy Powell.

Speaker 2 (39:56):
That's right, that's right, fine, a fine, indeed, I'll agree
with you on that. What'd you want to talk to us?
About today.

Speaker 6 (40:04):
Yeah, Jamie, what do you think about? And I think, Jamie,
you're gonna be invested in this idea. And I wanted
to talk about two things, but I wanted to kind
of the second thing is gonna the first thing is
going to lead into the second thing, and it's gonna
overark and it's gonna be great. Okay, I wanted to
talk about church state state church separation n subject member,

(40:29):
But can cus vote with a bias vote? Or why
s no vote is truly by it?

Speaker 2 (40:35):
Right?

Speaker 3 (40:36):
I mean?

Speaker 6 (40:36):
But can thea's not vote their theological dent or opinion? Like,
can they vote with a clear open mind and just
their mind not their heart?

Speaker 1 (40:46):
Organ Yeah, I'd say so. I mean, there are examples
of people who hold religious beliefs that run counter to
some of the things that they do. There's actually a
good number of biblical scholars, so practicing practicing Christians or
other religions, but then use their academia and go, yeah,
know a lot of the stuff in the books that

(41:07):
form the basis of the religion I believe in are
actually deeply flawed and philosophically bankrupt and that kind of thing. So,
you know, I have people in mind on that. But
we can't ever truly remove our own biases. All we
can hope is that people are aware of their biases,
like nowhere your biases lie, and try and at least

(41:30):
acknowledge them, if not attempt to remove them. But we're human, like,
belief is not something you choose. It's something that just happens.
You either believe something or don't, and belief informs action,
voting being an action. So I trust that some Theists
will have the critical thinking faculties to be able to

(41:51):
be introspective enough to recognize their own biases and mitigate
them if possible. Do I think all Christians can do that? No,
because I don't think people can do that. And that's
what I say on that. What do you think done?

Speaker 2 (42:04):
I think this is a I think this is a
very dismissive question of people at large, because, Okay, take
an organization like the Catholic Church, right, I would say,
out of all the organized religions in the world, they're
up there with the most of the organized right as
far as like what everyone's supposed to believe and stuff right,

(42:25):
And you still see divisions and party lines on what
Catholics vote on. Right, maybe not as strongly as you
do per se between like evangelical groups versus other groups.
But like there's still definitely a division. Like not everybody's
theological beliefs intersick with their politics, and it may be
because they don't actually fully realize that. But like I

(42:47):
think a lot of people are more practical than you
might expect. The Internet kind of clouds our vision on
this because we especially our show, because we talk to
people with all kinds of world views. Right, But you know,
by and law, large religion in America to a lot
of people, at least are the ones who say they
believe in God but don't go to church every week
may not actually impact their political opinions as much as

(43:10):
one might assume. Rather, I'm not saying that it doesn't
have it, because it definitely does, right, But I don't know,
I'm not convinced that we shouldn't trust a Christian to
vote properly because of their Christianity. I mean, like that's
that's kind of a stretch to me. I don't know,
that's not enough data to really tell me one way
or the other.

Speaker 1 (43:30):
There's certain prominent public figures past and present who are
known to be religious but their standpoints and how they
acted and what they said seems to run contrary to
the sort of common belief. Stephen Colbert is a practicing Catholic,
but he's like one of the most progressive TV show
hosts I've seen. So unless he's lying through his teeth

(43:51):
every night.

Speaker 2 (43:52):
That's right. And by the way, I'm not saying that
Stephen figure like Stephen Colbert is consistent. Okay, No, I
don't think so. I think if he was more consistant Catholic,
he wouldn't have the opinions that he does. But that's
that's America, right, That's the beauty of it. You can
just kind of make ship up and just kind of
go with it, and that that's really what it means
to live in this country. I think it's just kind

(44:13):
of do what you want for better or worse.

Speaker 6 (44:16):
You know.

Speaker 1 (44:16):
The running the running gag between between myself and Forest
is he really would like if he could go back
and debate anybody with the question Steve Roger and Steve
Rogers Rogers mister Rogers, not Steve Rodgers. Yeah, because he
was a Presbyterian.

Speaker 2 (44:34):
Like presarian minister. Yeah, but he was.

Speaker 1 (44:37):
Also the chilliest groovuest dude whoever childre and grooved, and.

Speaker 2 (44:42):
He had values. He had a sense of values. He
had values for for what kids needed and what people needed.
And I think that he was able to translate that
into his theology.

Speaker 6 (44:53):
Right.

Speaker 2 (44:53):
But he's also a very educated man, very studied man,
and you know, like there's other material factors at play here,
Like I religion is, yes, can't it be an indicator? Absolutely,
But let's not make the mistake as atheists and define
it as the only variable by which we should consider
somebody to be like smart or capable of reason. Okay,

(45:15):
because like that kind of rhetoric is that's what gives
us a bad name. It really does. But those are
my thoughts on that, Michelle, what do you think?

Speaker 6 (45:22):
Which is why? See, I don't think the way I
asked the question or formed the question was dismissive, Like
maybe if I said, why don't Christians vote bias or
something better than maybe just their dogmatic theological fundamental beliefs,
But I said, can they so? But in that regard, Yeah,
you're right, Dan.

Speaker 3 (45:42):
And so are you.

Speaker 6 (45:43):
Jamie. You had some great points which will lead me
into my next thought. And Jamie, I know you have
a lot to say about this, because I've heard you
say a lot about this very subject coming from a
country and hailing from a country that has long since
had a church state kind of thing official to the
head of their state. And yeah, and uh, you're very

(46:06):
much invested in that. And one time I heard you call.
You actually were so enthralled with the conversation of one
night's show. I don't know if you remember this. You
actually called into the show to comment on a couple
of different things, and you had said, I can't I
don't know if you said I can't wait, but he said,
one day in the future, and I think it'll be

(46:27):
a better future. Something like to those regards. In that regard,
but like when people will go to cathedrals and look
at the stained glass and the iconography, you know, in
the books, and and we'll say, well, that's what people
used to believe a long time ago when they were
dumb or Neanderthals, and now we evolved past all of that.

(46:47):
And I'm just like, I understand maybe you're you're more
invested in that kind of a rigorous thought and like
a more of a direct kind of thinking, and to
go down those lines because you do come for the
country that really up toll is still in entralled within
a true se kind of thing.

Speaker 1 (47:07):
I mean kind of we we have like I can't
like I'd have to get the numbers up. But England
as a whole is a more secular society than America.
And that's one of the reasons I bring it up.
It's like, in it crazy that that I come from
a country with a with a with a with a
national church, with with with a state church, and where

(47:30):
our national anthem has the word God in the title
and all this kind of stuff. But most people treat
religion like a hobby. It's it's it doesn't come in
some of our politics as much as it does here
in the US. And and part of the reason for
that is, weirdly, because we have a lot more religious
representation in our population. We have so many more Sikhs

(47:52):
and Muslims and Jews and other kinds of denominations. And
also we know what sectarian violence looks like, like We've
seen what people who believe God on their side do
in living memory. And so there is an intrinsic understanding

(48:12):
that the overt religious dogma is can be dangerous so
the state, the church, the state religion is so is
so mild?

Speaker 2 (48:24):
This is this was interesting, Jamie. This is a heart take.
But if you wanted to make the case against the
separation of church and state, I would cite the UK
in Then are you if I was to make that
case because in my opinion, you tell me this is true?
Or now as a citizen, right, because it is so integrated,
the church into the into the state of the UK, Right,

(48:48):
it was forced on some level to be secular. And
what I mean by that is it had to serve
its citizens, which come from all walks of life, different believes,
different structures. And so because it's it's integration into its government,
it ends up becoming the sort of you know, Christianity
as a hobby in some sense, right, it's not a

(49:11):
requirement in the same way that you know, the kind
of religious sort of expectations here in America? Am I
making sense on that? There's something to do that.

Speaker 1 (49:20):
It's also that we've had it, We've had it for longer.
The way it came about was sort of a double
act of rebellion. It first of all, it was Protestantism,
and then that became Church of Him when Henry that
it's like, I am the pope now and so and
we had the Civil War, which was again it was
a Catholic versus Protestant thing and Cromwell and all that like. Like,

(49:42):
it's one of the problems within America being such a
young country compared to a lot of the rest of
the world, is that we've kind of done it all.
We've we've had all the wars, we've had all the fights,
we've had all the religious schisms, and it's kind of
just settled down into a sort of melunge now. And
that's why is Lamophobia the big thing in the UK,
because it's like, you know, who doesn't like a heavy

(50:04):
dollop of racism with their religious bigotry, And he really
is about Islamic culture and race rather than the Islamic religion.
So again, I can't speak for the whole of the UK.
I can only go from my own observations. I wouldn't
recommend that we instigate a state religion now. If you could, like,

(50:24):
if you could go back five hundred or six hundred years,
which is again twice as long as this country has
been a country, mayybe it would have worked out the
same way, but I again can't say that that's going
to be the case.

Speaker 2 (50:40):
So I just think it's fascinating because it's like you
just don't have the problems that you would the things
that we would worry about right in a church and
state not being separated, you just don't have. In the UK,
you just really don't. It doesn't manifest that way, which
is a I don't know, I think, something to think about.
But anyway, that's kind of a changing here, Michelle, I

(51:00):
don't know what do you think?

Speaker 6 (51:01):
Here's one thought deposit and this is Jamie again. Dan,
sorry to text you out, but you definitely you want
to be in your.

Speaker 2 (51:08):
Show and all.

Speaker 6 (51:10):
So Jamie the Blind Limey, don't you even though you did?
Do you remember I don't think that believe that that
opinion that I shared.

Speaker 1 (51:17):
With you, not quite so we will evolve past it.
I think that's a little bit harsh on current believers
because you know, like we were saying that you can
be a perfectly rational, more reasonable, intelligent person and still
be a feist. But yes, I think the model that
I was looking at was how sort of Japan treats religion,
in that they have several that there are sort of

(51:40):
culture appropriate, but they don't stick to one and it
is far more cultural and secular. Like people go to
the shrine at New Year, but they have that, but
they have Buddhist they have Christian weddings and Buddhist funerals,
but they believe in Shinto. But they don't actually believe
there's a real spirit in their coffee tape, but they
act as if it is because it means that they're

(52:02):
going to look after their coffee table. And so the
religious practices that permeated the country, and they were vehemently religious,
Like again five six hundred years ago in the fifteenth century,
especially during the Secoco time where they were separated, they
were hunting Christians down and executing them. Right, so they

(52:23):
did again, they did all that, and now it's turned
into this is just our culture. We go to the
shrine because it's the thing you do at thinks. It's
like I celebrate Christmas. I celebrate Christmas even though I
don't even know if Christ really lived, but boy, oh boy,
do as I like me some turkey and presents and
family and love and the message of togetherness and the
sort of secularization and the culture culture fighting of it,

(52:45):
and I do like visiting cathedrals. I mean I did
when I was back in England. I went to this
wonderful cathedral in North England and it was just this
massive Gothic building, huge buttresses, and it's amazing, and I'm like, Wow,
they really wanted to impress on you that God is there,
and God is huge and you better be scared of him.
So that's what I'm hoping for, that we don't erase religion,

(53:09):
but we recognize that it's a building block. It was
a building block of the culture. It has its place
in history, even a place of veneration in some ways,
but remove the truth of God from it. Like God
is real and he's an actual person and he has
actual opinions on where you can put your penis. So

(53:29):
that's maybe.

Speaker 6 (53:31):
That's maybe the point that I truly wanted to make
about entire into the second point of mine is that
the vibe the one prophecy. Hey, listen, guys, I don't
Bible prophecy is pretty much all of them appreciate it.
And if you have me, if I had to chime
in on what he uses anobiography would be in the
wrong answer, only it would be he came on in

(53:53):
what he came once in Why he's not coming again
in death? But for he is coming again in death?
Right because only I don't know anyway, because I don't
think he's coming back anytime soon in any way. But don't
you think if the Bible says there will.

Speaker 7 (54:08):
Always be a remnant of believers, that it's a little
more romantic in this if the world continues to have
believers in it, at least ones that might even be
more open minded and liberal.

Speaker 6 (54:20):
But as long as they still hold true some theology
and doctrine and sanctity to their belief and in the faith,
and no matter what it is, like, that's romantic. You know,
they're painting with a little bit of a broader brush.

Speaker 2 (54:35):
Yeah, I mean, I guess to my response is probably
the same as Jamies. I think the world would be.
I don't want to erase all Christianity and pretend like
it didn't happen per se, Right, I think that's too
proud of a brush. Like you know, he's talking about Japan.
I went to Japan. I saw the Shinto shrines, and
I saw some of the ceremonies that were done there.

(54:56):
There's a real culture that's happening. There a real living
history that have up there that I wouldn't want to
take away from somebody. What I am wanting to take
away is this belief that some people have are morally
superior than others. I want to take away this ability
of that people can use to oppress other people right
through their beliefs. I mean, that's the kind of stuff

(55:18):
that Jamie and I think are both interested in.

Speaker 7 (55:20):
Right.

Speaker 2 (55:21):
I can appreciate the construction of a cathedral just as
much as the next Christian, you know, but I can
do that in a very secular lens. I don't need
to believe in God to appreciate that. So, you know,
am I going to I'm not here to eradicate culture,
per se. I'm here to help with people's cognitive biases

(55:43):
and to help them discern what true things are. Sure,
but you know, I think, you know, you get to
a real bad place if you start talking about, you know,
erasing people from existence. That's not really or people's ideas
for existence, that's not really what when I'm after, you know,
not a great look.

Speaker 1 (56:04):
Yeah, appreciating things in the historical context is fine. I
don't have to agree with the policies of William the
Conqueror to think that Warwick Castle is awesome and cool.

Speaker 2 (56:15):
So it's like playing metal gear solid. It's like, I
think war is bad, but also like the models of
the guns and stuff in the game are like really cool.

Speaker 1 (56:25):
That's that's so Kajem likes cool. I hate war exactly.

Speaker 2 (56:31):
So there you go. That's just a sad thing here anyway, Michelle,
anything else you want to have before we let you go?

Speaker 6 (56:37):
No, definitely not. I don't want to add anything. Just
that you guys agreed and watch the show. Are you
guys still living on for Profits?

Speaker 1 (56:44):
Yes? The Nonprofits is still a flagship show of the
a c A. It comes out regularly during the week. Kelly,
our backup host, is one of the regulars there and
is excellent on it. We've also got people you may recognize,
Let's goott Dickie, Jimmy Jr. And AJ also commenting on

(57:04):
news being all topical, like I would recommend you aren't it?

Speaker 2 (57:08):
Yeah, unfortunately, thank you have a good one. And on
that note, I would like to read a super chat
that we got that was on the screen quickly but
is not there anymore. But as the crew can put
it back on. I can see it. Hey, there it
is from Godwin gave four dollars a night and says
thanks for that. I said, Hi, guys, just hopped on

(57:29):
the live FYI. My w W T T answer was
a play on luke, I am your father. Love you guys.
Keep up the good work. Okay, okay, I see that now,
because you got the Luke in there. All right, that
makes more sense. Thank you for that context. Did not
thank you for sending money to give us that context.

(57:50):
That's that's especially good. So we appreciate that.

Speaker 1 (57:54):
As a lifelong Star Wars fan somewhat jaded these days,
I should have called that when I was head.

Speaker 2 (58:00):
You don't have to be a lifelong Star Wars fan.
You know, you can just kind of not be a
fan for a while, you know, if it's not doing
it for you.

Speaker 1 (58:07):
All well, although the latest animations not to get too
far off it, animations did one and it really is
the most English thing that Star Wars is evident or
it's almost like, oh the forest is strong listen.

Speaker 2 (58:20):
Okay, all right, I don't know about that. I have
to check that out. So, yeah, super chats are one
way you can support us and one other thing I'd
like to point out if you've ever said to yourself, wow,
I think objectively Dan's cool. Can I watch more of him?
And the answer is yes. And also Jamie and also
our other hosts if you like Talk Heathen that is,
we do have a Talk Heathen live stream is twenty

(58:43):
four to seven. Go check that out and see all
the awesome hosts that contribute to the network. And also
our atheists Experience one and I'm on a few of
those two. So you know, if you're just interested in me, yeah,
there's some options for you. But yeah, go check those
out if you want to watch more content and not
live and you're bored, because there's always something live happening,

(59:04):
even if it's old shows. Last but not least, before
we move on, I got to thank the amazing, wonderful,
spectacular Stupend his crew that he'll make the show happen
every single week with the catcam as well. Beautiful, perfect
time for that cat cam. Oh my god, that was great.
Look at that kid.

Speaker 1 (59:22):
One of the rare times, one of the rare times
recently I'm not in studio. I'm trying to be in
the studio more so, you know, to remind people of
the Free Thought Library. It's a real place you can
really go to.

Speaker 2 (59:31):
Really, that's right on that note, we do need to
cancel you, Jamie, because we just got a super chat. Yeah,
let's just let's get that bad boy back on the
screen here if we can. Crew from Caitlin Beyond who
said for ninety nine it's a canceled Jamie. He used
a instead of the flagship show, and yeah, that is sin.
Actually you are going to hell. I'm just letting you

(59:52):
know right now you don't forgive that. Kelly is cursing
up a storm at you right now here. It is
crazy looking. I've never seen him so mad.

Speaker 1 (01:00:01):
I'm breaking my programming. I know they're gonna have to
put me back into the re education chair.

Speaker 2 (01:00:07):
He's smiling now, but he was a face. I mean,
he was trying to put the fear of God in you,
and you don't believe in gods. So that's should tell
you how scary it was you brought me.

Speaker 5 (01:00:18):
I didn't realize you brought me up. I was still
looking at you, just a picture of Jamie. Yeah, I
was going you fuck, how could you get that wrong?
You bastard?

Speaker 2 (01:00:27):
He's so mad it was crazy exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:00:30):
You can come to the back cruise and being with sticks,
It'll be fine.

Speaker 2 (01:00:34):
Yeah. Thanks for the cameo, Kelly, and thank you again
crew for all the work that you do. We have
some more calls, uh callers I want to talk to us.
We have one from Japan speaking of Japan is calling
us hello for our sofas. How are you hey?

Speaker 1 (01:00:52):
I'm doing one in itself doing well. Please don't quiz
me on my Japanese. I've forgotten almost all of it.

Speaker 2 (01:00:59):
And I didn't even by that to learn the language
too much. I'm'll be honest. I figured I would get
by when I was there, and you know what I
turned out of just okay. So there you go, forever Sophas.
What do you want to talk to us about today?

Speaker 3 (01:01:10):
Bill?

Speaker 8 (01:01:11):
I was prompted by your clever channel and marketing techniques
to call in regard to AI not having morality. I
gets to the stance, I hold, is that an issue
you guys are pretty keen on talking about. I'd be
happy to.

Speaker 2 (01:01:25):
Go over that absolutely. I mean I was, first of all,
thanks for calling it clever, because it was my idea.
Actually no, it wasn't my idea. It was one of
the crew member's ideas. I kind of I got the
ball rolling on it, though, I'll put it that way. So, boy,
this is the episode where I just pretend to be
a narcissist. Huh. I've made like a couple different jokes
about my own ego today. I do I feel about
that anyway? No, it's a good question because I'm definitely

(01:01:47):
interested in it. I know Jamie's interested in it. So
what do you want to talk about it?

Speaker 8 (01:01:50):
Well, I'll just say I don't think it's sensical to
have any morality drawn from AI. At the stands, I
think AI is icy auto correct, and so if we're
going to get morality from AI, I think we're just
kind of, I guess, falling from the soup of all
of the things that's gathered from because you know, AI
is just at the lamb, is just gathering from all

(01:02:11):
of the you know, written data online and that's such
sort of things. I don't think AI think about anything,
And so yeah, I don't think it would makes sense to
gain morality from it either.

Speaker 1 (01:02:20):
Okay, that's a that's a very valid standpoint, and with
large language models, I tend to agree with you. Yes,
Spicy spicy also correct, like Google soup. But there are
certain things where computational logic is going to be used
in situations that call for morality. So here's an example,

(01:02:44):
like the programming of avoidance protocols in driver driverless cars.
How does one or can one algorithm algorithmise that's not
a word, turn into an algorithm? Things like the trolley
problem like what do you do? Who do you hit?
Where do you crash? What's the priority? And so? Do

(01:03:05):
you feel that the morals and ethics can have a
place in computational situations?

Speaker 2 (01:03:10):
Yes?

Speaker 8 (01:03:10):
I do. I think that that would be a counter example, right,
because then you would have to actively be teaching the
model to work a certain way, would you know?

Speaker 1 (01:03:19):
Indeed, slightly counter to encounter. But do we not have
to be taught and learn as people what morality is?

Speaker 4 (01:03:28):
I mean?

Speaker 1 (01:03:28):
Do you feel that people have an intrinsic value like
ethical or moral compass within them? I'm not saying that
God wrote it on your heart or whatever, but likes
as creatures. Do you believe that a person with no
external teaching will still be able to form an acceptable
moral compass? And can we not do that to I? I?

Speaker 8 (01:03:49):
Yeah, that's an interesting question, and so yeah, about how
people gather their own ethical frameworks and realities. I think
that's a complex question with you know, a complex answer.
I don't think if you have somebody who's ever been
taught anything, right, like you can think of I can't
remember her name now, but there was an example, right
of a girl who had born and completely like neglected

(01:04:09):
like latype of psychopath parent, right, laughing like a and
it's fair all data out and take of like by clients.

Speaker 4 (01:04:14):
Right.

Speaker 8 (01:04:14):
But so obviously you need some sort of education, right,
you need some sort of upbringing people to have them
understand things about society and and whatnot. I guess I
just don't see where AI fit to that.

Speaker 2 (01:04:27):
I think our technology is a reflection of our morals, right,
So like what we think is acceptable are things that
we build and AI, especially large language models, as a
type of AI. Right, Let's be clear, because people say
AI and they just kind of mean whatever, Like it's
not all the same thing. But you know, we're talking
about things that we're going to be able to identify

(01:04:48):
as persons people like that. That seems to be a
thing that's going to happen if it doesn't happen already
a lot of people already associate large language models with identities.
But like, I'm kind of interested in this idea of
can we judge actions based on models and and the
and the materialist answer seems to be no, because we
know that they just come from whatever we program them

(01:05:11):
to be, right, whatever the data is.

Speaker 7 (01:05:12):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:05:12):
But then again, kind of to Jamie's point, it's always
coming from people though, right, It's always coming from from something, right,
So it just kind of make you wonder, Okay, is
it turtles all the way down then? Because if we
can judge the people, can we not judge their creations
to their creations not factor into that as well. I
don't know. I don't have a clear answer or idea,

(01:05:34):
but I do think it's a bit murkier than maybe
some might give the issue credit for it. If that
makes sense? Am I making sense, Jamie? I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:05:42):
Yeah, it seems to be. I mean, I'm thinking of
examples of large language model type AI that's used to
sort of emulate people, again, not to get to get
to weebe. But there's a there's a there's a VTuber
called Neurosama who is entirely large an interactive large language model.
That's what they are. They have an avatar and they

(01:06:02):
interact with the audience, and they learn and grow. They
have filters put on them by their creator to make
sure they don't say anything that's going to get the
channel bound from twitch. But and they may, and sometimes
they can seem very compelling as a person. But they
are just an interactive large language model. And so are

(01:06:24):
we ever going to get to a point where those
kinds of models are so complex that we're going to
find them indistinguishable from real people other than a past
the cheering test and all that kind of thing. And
if so, if a large language model is large enough
and complex enough to intuit through these Baysian calculations of
probability of next word, what the best next word is,

(01:06:46):
and it matches what is moral? I mean, a moral
lesson that's correct, is a moral lesson that's correct, no
matter where it comes from. Yeah, so I don't know,
Like I said, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:06:57):
Yeah, I don't think of cars as evil, right, But
like Agent Orange, I don't have any good things to
say about that, you know, but there you could say
that was the creation of an evil desire, So you know,
maybe we have to say the same about AI and
those as creations, but I don't know. We've been talking

(01:07:18):
for a minutes forever. Service what do you think?

Speaker 8 (01:07:20):
Oh, if you think cars can't be evil, you should
watch Transformers. There's this guy's called the Septicons.

Speaker 2 (01:07:25):
Damn, damn. That's a good point though, Holy shit, Yeah,
you're right. Yeah, I take it bag.

Speaker 8 (01:07:32):
As I attempted a joke, But yeah, I guess, I guess.
I don't think I can be convinced that we'll ever
be able to like remove our hands from the models,
you know what I mean? And you could think of
like a pretty prescio example recently, like with pharmaceutical companies
declining based off of AI. People claims right, yeah, and
by by principle, I'm a real utilitarian. So like, the

(01:07:54):
utilitarian part of me is saying, yeah, I want to
do whatever causes the least suffering to humanity, and so
maybe things like AI models can help towards that. But
the rural part of me is saying, like, well, hold on,
you know, I don't want to murder somebody to give
organs to ten other people that have with ten other
people live because mathematically, right, that makes more sense, and
so I think there'll always be some kind of well wait,

(01:08:17):
you know, when it comes to AI, it just seems
like something that will never be able to more than
as a tool.

Speaker 1 (01:08:23):
I mean, I could see that. I mean, the only
the only thing I would say is that if we
ever got to a point where these these tools and
this tech do, if not become sapients at least approximate
sapients in a in a functional form, we just treat
them as as children, teach them well, give them boundaries,

(01:08:44):
and hope that we can make sure that they the
actions they take and the information they generate, and the
and the standpoints that they that they espouse as as
agents are generally moral. But again, I am not a
moral absolute just everything is relative. So what is moral

(01:09:04):
isn't a concrete thing even and with one of the
problems with computers is that they tend to want to
be absolute in what they do. So yeah, it's tricky one.

Speaker 2 (01:09:14):
But you can learn about moral absolutism from Shaggy Bet
right now if you really wanted to. Which is something
to think about, Not really, actually, it's just there's not
really much to think.

Speaker 1 (01:09:24):
But I know it.

Speaker 2 (01:09:25):
Sounds like a good point, but it's not I don't
have anything else to add to this conversation. I think
I think we've said my piece, so I don't know
forever self is Was there anything else you want to
add before we let you go.

Speaker 8 (01:09:36):
In regards to this Yeah, in regards to this topic,
I think I said my thoughts, you guys said yours,
and kind of you know, head nod and about that,
it sounds like though we're probably in similar understanding, Like
I don't think morality literally exists, right, I think it's
worth use of fiction too, you know, yeah, to work
work with the world around us, and so in how

(01:09:58):
far we can use that in terms of things like AI.
I think that's a question. But I guess maybe this
is like because that was I was raised a Christian, right,
and I deconverted in my teens like many people. Maybe
maybe there's like a part of me that think there's
some there's some moral part will always happen like automated away.
But that's just where I'm at today.

Speaker 1 (01:10:16):
And we are now veering from well into the philosophical
because the idea of what constitutes the human, the self,
the soul or whatever. Boy, boy, have we not solved
that problem.

Speaker 2 (01:10:28):
Nope, we definitely have it. And you know what, I
don't think the three of us are going to maybe
maybe forever sof as well. I don't know about you
and me, Jamie, Well, I don't think we're on the
cutting room. We're on the Yeah, we're on the cuting
room floor for that, I think. But anyway, forever Selvis,
thank you great, Oh my god, great points and great conversation.
I hope you call in again. I really liked what

(01:10:49):
you had to say and I hope continue to hear
from you. Also, great point about the Scepticons, because Megatron
is I guess it is an evil AI so or
is it? Would you make a distinction if he's a
robot or a transform? Is he a robot?

Speaker 6 (01:11:04):
Well?

Speaker 2 (01:11:05):
It is he like a cyborg?

Speaker 1 (01:11:06):
Well, the thing is God, I don't want to get
into slug transform a little bit.

Speaker 2 (01:11:10):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:11:10):
They're they're born and grow like they don't they're not programmed,
they are they are living, they.

Speaker 2 (01:11:16):
Are right, So that cyborg. Right, it's a cyborg.

Speaker 1 (01:11:19):
Because cyborg is flesh and metal. They like they are
grown beings that are grown from metal, not not not organics.
And it's weird. I don't know my brain.

Speaker 2 (01:11:33):
You need a representative from hasbrot it. Yeah, this I
think because I don't. I don't know either, give us
and it's having a confusion. Another uh, super chat by
the way from Godwin who gave four ninety nine and said,
please post the flyers and get your friends to call
in support the shows. Oh yes, in case you didn't know,
we do have flyers that you can post in areas

(01:11:53):
that you have permission to post in and if you
want more people to call in or to watch the show,
that is one way to do it. We just have
that out there for everybody that wants to do it.
So thanks to the folks who have done that. And
another super channel I need to read from a Godwin
very generous to thank you so much god Win a
dollar ninety nine given and said, can you recommend good
places to post your flyers? That is a great question.

(01:12:19):
I think again, anywhere that you have permission to post,
like a college campuses. If you're on a college campus,
you know usually have some places where students can put
stuff up, right parks, It depends, right, some places you're
allowed to put it up, some places you're not. Check
your local jurisdictions on that. If your workplace has a board,

(01:12:41):
I don't know. Those are my ideas. Yeah, yeah, I
need Jamie.

Speaker 1 (01:12:45):
I mean, you know, wherever you can get permission. I
always find that if you live in a this is
kind of an American thing. But if you live in an
apartment complex and they've got a bulletin board at the front,
maybe they'd be amenable to it. So people are going
into the office. We'll look at it whatever. It's just
that we don't want we don't want to evangelize or

(01:13:05):
proselytize in the same way that some we don't. We're
not going door to door saying have you not thought
about your Lord and Savior Jesus today?

Speaker 2 (01:13:14):
If you're a welcome member of your church community, you
should put it on your church bulletin board with permission.
With permission, that would be awesome and I would love
to see a picture of that. But on that note,
let's try to speed things along here because we got
less time and still a lot of calls in the queue.
I am curious, are you you know? I think we'll

(01:13:38):
try John, who says that they're calling from Mars, which
is an interesting location. John, you are alive on Truth Wanted.
How can we help you?

Speaker 3 (01:13:48):
Yeah? My question is why do some atheists hate Christians
about a cause?

Speaker 1 (01:13:54):
Well, you'd have to ask some atheists Christians.

Speaker 2 (01:13:58):
Yeah, that's their opinion. I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:14:00):
Someone that's friends of Christians.

Speaker 2 (01:14:02):
Yeah, I definitely don't hate Christians.

Speaker 1 (01:14:04):
But go ahead, I get an example.

Speaker 3 (01:14:06):
So I know Christians in person, in real life, right,
they never be here in the manner that I've seen
behave online. A lot of them seem to hold his
deep hate within that they can't express a person. But
then online, like many trolls, they release that negative energy.

Speaker 2 (01:14:24):
Jo you said Christians release a negative nager or atheists, Well.

Speaker 3 (01:14:27):
You could, you could. It could be said of certain
Christians as well. But I'm saying in general, whenever a
Christian goes into an atheist chat, and a Christian would
have going to this chat, now, how would he be treated?

Speaker 1 (01:14:38):
We ask him to call in, and as long as
he's not proselytizing in the chat, then uh, you know,
we we make it clear that the chat is not
for arguments, it's not for debate, it's to comment on
the show. And if a Christian call is in the
shut in there trying to make points. It's like, why
you may he eat the chat call hosts so careful.

Speaker 2 (01:14:57):
I can't speak for all I know the post of atheism.
I can't speak for all atheists spaces. What I can
say is that for a lot of real life places,
it's not a great place to be an atheist. Where
I'm from, which is Waco, Texas, you can't throw a
rock without hitting at least three churches, right, And so
online spaces are a commonplace where atheists have found community,

(01:15:22):
and so they sometimes poke a little bit of fun
when it comes to Christians that come in and they
take it too far. Yeah, absolutely, it happens every day.
I wish it wasn't. It's kind of cringed sometimes, to
be honest with you. But that doesn't engage from the
fact that in most places, like it's particularly in the US, right,
it's not an okay space or okay to openly be

(01:15:44):
an atheist. And so, you know, they go to their
own spaces, and when other people try to invade those spaces,
at least maybe they perceive it as an invasion. They
might be a bit more hostile, but you know, your
management very people are people, They're going to be responding
differently depending on their life experiences.

Speaker 1 (01:16:01):
And if a fellow atheist truly was hated on Christians
for no saying, for no reason, right, that was that's
that's your point. We're about reason here, we're about sound epistemology.
I would come at them just as viciously as I
would to a blind believer, as I would to a
blind non believer, because if they're just hating indiscriminately for
no reason other than just to hate, I would have

(01:16:23):
them question their belief. Why are you so full of
hate for this? What reasons do you have? Are they
good reasons? Do they come from a pace of rationality
in critical thinking? Or are you just being like done
like fueled by emotions. The whole angry atheist thing is
often a response to religious trauma, and may not be
entirely maybe justified, may not be may not be justified.

(01:16:46):
Usually not that healthy in the long term, and should
be dealt with. But if I only speak to myself,
atheism is not a monolith. But if someone was saying, oh,
far bloody hate Christians, Christians are all stud and terrible,
one of the things I will always push back on.
And I have heard he said, religions and mental Christianity's

(01:17:07):
mental illness, and like, don't you fucking dare say that
that that that denogress Christians and mental illness. That is
not cool. So so yeah, I would always whether someone's
if someone's doing something anything for no good reason. I'm
a I'm a skeptic before I'm an atheist, I would
question their belief and why Yep.

Speaker 2 (01:17:27):
Okay, point, thank you, okay, thank you, John, anything else
you want to add?

Speaker 3 (01:17:32):
I think you guys kind of gave a good breakdown
of some of the things I've observed. And and you know,
I have a lot of I meet a lot of
people because the police I'm from, there's a lot of atheists.
It's like the flip side. But you know, I've noticed
that there's a lot of atheists that are very kind
in person. I mean, I'm not not all atheists, obviously,
not all Christians, but not all people. But you know,

(01:17:52):
because I'm not going to broadly generalize all atheists.

Speaker 1 (01:17:55):
That's literal fantasy.

Speaker 3 (01:17:56):
Yeah, sure, but I think, but I think there's there
is a problem online where there's a lack of discussion
right there needs to be I think more more discussions
and common ground right where we could agree and then
you know there's areas that we're going to obviously disagree,
but I think we should do it in a way
where you know it's civil and we were not biting
each other's heads up.

Speaker 1 (01:18:16):
I would I would say that's maybe more of a
problem with with online discourse in general. The chambers social
media and there are and and doing it in the
real world is usually more when you do it face
to face is great. A friend of the show Secularity
has is championing this, like, let's get believers and non

(01:18:39):
believers into the same physical space to talk about things
in a general in a in a in a inclusive
and friendly atmosphere, because yes, argument and division and vitriol
is entertaining, and and shows like this and show and
on the other side as well and talk and stuff.

(01:19:01):
We get the views and the clicks if we're having
our old smack smack a Rooney SmackDown and calling each
other's idiots and and poking holes in each other's logic.
So I can understand where those where those impressions may
come from. And I think it's as much of the
fault of the medium as it is are the people
engaging with it.

Speaker 2 (01:19:21):
But yes, I agree with that andter wrapt things up
to John. You know, if you want somebody to in
front of like r slash atheism with you, I'm with you.
I'm just saying there's a lot of spaces where I
actively cringe. But you know, I also know that our
slash atheism is.

Speaker 3 (01:19:38):
I think there's there's there's like some some places like
Alex O'Connor and I've seen him recently talk about some
of the divias he's had with some Christians, and I
like those type of conversations where people are able to
sit down and not like, you know, just eat each
other or not eat each other literally, but you know,
figuratively they're eating each other and biting each other and

(01:19:59):
that's not really les and it's just it is cringe.

Speaker 2 (01:20:02):
It is cringe. I agree with you, there's uh, you know.
But at the same time, some people really respond to
sort of the big bomb bass, right. I mean there's
a reason why a lot of those ones that are
bomb bass they give used to as well. I'm not
saying it's right. I'm not saying it's you know whatever.
I'm just saying, you know, there's a reason that it

(01:20:23):
exists out there too, for better or worse, and that
that's for anybody. But look, if you're looking for people
who have reasonable lakes on things, welcome to the show.

Speaker 3 (01:20:32):
Baby.

Speaker 2 (01:20:33):
Well you know, come watch us. Well, we'll show you
what it's up. We'll show you what we're about. Bayway. John,
I'm gonna let you go because we are at the
end of close to the end of the show here
and we need to get a move on. But thank
you for calling in. I hope to hear from you
sometime in the future. With that, I think we have
time for maybe one more call.

Speaker 1 (01:20:50):
Jamuary can push it. I can push it. Yeah, I
do have a pretty hard hustlef but I can push
for one more.

Speaker 2 (01:20:55):
Okay, we'll do one more. Sorry, folks, I know you've
got a couple of calls in the you. We can't
get to everybody. I know some of you guys have
been waiting.

Speaker 1 (01:21:03):
So what I would suggest to what I'd like to do, Actually,
I'm okay, hijack. I'd like to bring on John from Canada,
and I'd like to bring on Kelly, our backup host,
to be a third voice on this one.

Speaker 2 (01:21:13):
Okay, all right, I think we can do that. We
got John from Canada wanting to speak with us. John,
we're at the end of the show, uh where we
want to keep things brief, but you are alive with
us on truth wanted.

Speaker 9 (01:21:25):
Go ahead, Okay, this is gonna be brief. The first
Dan was congratulations on.

Speaker 2 (01:21:31):
Your wedding, Thank you, trip was great, and thank you
for that. Appreciate it.

Speaker 9 (01:21:36):
Okay. So I get to get to the point after
years of arguing with after years of arms Field, I
think and I'm saying that I'm not saying completely, saying
a bit more old you of your point of view.

Speaker 2 (01:21:48):
Okay, So what's the change now? Because you've called into
this show, I mean more times than maybe anybody else
that's ever called in. So you know what, what what
does getting you on this path?

Speaker 9 (01:21:59):
Well?

Speaker 2 (01:22:02):
Okay, yeah, I mean we agree with you there.

Speaker 1 (01:22:04):
So I'm just gonna say, I'm gonna I'm gonna leave
this to him when I'm going to bring him on
to say, I think we can attribute a lot of
that to the compassion and hosting style of our man
in the middle here, Kelly. So if you want to
take it away Kelly and sort of maybe discuss this
potential deconstruction.

Speaker 5 (01:22:20):
You know what, I'm happy to talk to John. John
has been one of my favorite callers forever. I love
John the DUTs man, and I'm so glad that that
he called tonight and is like starting to reassess the
things that you that he's been thinking about. So congratulations John,
I I really am really happy to see you thinking
about things.

Speaker 2 (01:22:39):
Yep.

Speaker 1 (01:22:39):
And I would say that we have had conversations the past,
you and I John, and they haven't always been the
friendliest we have got. You can sometimes get a little
bit vicious because we when we do have h standpoints
that we hold quite daily, we do defend them very,
very vigorously. So I think you stand as an example
for where toning down the venom and amping up the

(01:23:01):
empathy really helps.

Speaker 6 (01:23:03):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:23:03):
I am overjoyed to hear you say these things.

Speaker 2 (01:23:07):
Not to be a Debbie downer, not to be that guy,
but I am going to be the skeptical one here
because John, you've called into the show a lot, and
sometimes you've contradicted yourself. You've supported some positions some weeks,
in some positions another week. If you're on a path
where you're truly deconstructing, that's great. I don't know you.
I don't know your life, and I can't tell you

(01:23:28):
whether you're being honest with us or not. What I
want to see is you walk the walk and talk
the talk.

Speaker 6 (01:23:34):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:23:35):
I don't want to have another call like a week
from now for you saying, oh, I'm actually a Christian
again and we're going to talk about why abortion is
bad or something.

Speaker 7 (01:23:43):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:23:43):
I mean, if that's how it goes, that's how it goes.
But if this is an you know, an honest assessment
of where you're at and this is where you're coming to,
that's great. More power to you, and I'll be just
as happy as the other guy's over here. But I
need a little bit more evidence, right, because that's something
we talk about a lot on this show, and so
far the evidence hasn't shown up for me yet, but

(01:24:06):
it could and it can.

Speaker 5 (01:24:08):
I go ahead, John, I wanted to say somebody, I
want to give you a chance to talk first.

Speaker 9 (01:24:12):
So oh well, I said, I still okay. I want
to make this clear. I still have my issues with
Wolf and I'm still against Fourth, but we wanted to
that God. I wanted to accept that God might not
be real as well as Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:24:28):
That's fair. That's fair, that's fair. There are different issues, right, right.
I wouldn't I wouldn't expect you to one hundred percent
agree with everything that we think and feel, right.

Speaker 5 (01:24:37):
So, you know, yeah, Interestingly enough with Seth Andrews, who's
a very well known atheist. If you listen to some
of the first episodes of his podcast, he talks himself
about being against abortion because that was, you know, the
society that he was raising, and that was the morals
that he had when he became an atheist. Now he's
changed over the years and he's more pro pro choice today.

(01:24:59):
But yeah, I mean that really has nothing to do
with you being an atheist, and and maybe maybe your
ideas of that will change after a while too. You
never know, you know, so, but I you know, John,
the last the last three or four conversations I've had
with you, I have totally totally enjoyed them, And as
far as I'm concerned, those kinds of those conversations have

(01:25:20):
been pretty good evidence for me that you're walking a
different path. So go ahead and think you're gonna say something.

Speaker 2 (01:25:27):
I understanding, Well, see, I'm not saying it's it's it's
a done said deal here, But you know, I gotta
know for sure, John, I just got to know for
sure and and look like again, it doesn't have to
be a thing of absolutes. But well, here's what I'll say.
I'll leave it at this, okay, because we got to
wrap things up. I didn't want to be an atheist.
I wanted to be a Christian. But more than wanting

(01:25:50):
to be a Christian, I wanted to be right and
that is what led me to where I'm at today.
And I hope that's the same force that's leading you
today wherever your path is. So I will I'll leave
it at that. Kelly, I don't know if you have anything.

Speaker 1 (01:26:04):
Yeah, I.

Speaker 9 (01:26:06):
Want to say one thing to look clear. I am again,
But whenever they get that, we'll.

Speaker 2 (01:26:12):
Cross that bridge when we get yeah, you know.

Speaker 3 (01:26:18):
That.

Speaker 5 (01:26:19):
But you know, it's good to see that you're actually
like thinking about I always say having an open mind
is not accepting alternative facts. It's taking the facts that
you already have inside your mind and re examining and
actually be you know, researching whether or not they're true
facts or not. And it's really good to see you
on this path and opening up your mind John, I

(01:26:39):
I'm really I'm really happy to see it. Man, I'm
loving it.

Speaker 2 (01:26:43):
I'm totally like three more calls you. I think that's
what it is for me.

Speaker 1 (01:26:50):
He does backslide a little bit too.

Speaker 5 (01:26:52):
I think that's a little bit normal. I think a
little you know.

Speaker 1 (01:26:55):
So, I mean, I just don't.

Speaker 2 (01:26:56):
Want to go next week and to saying yeah, I
think like, I don't know, I don't know, you know,
you know what I'm.

Speaker 1 (01:27:01):
Doing sound richest double cream coming from me and having
in the context of the conversations. I jump, but no pressure,
and you know, he'sl It's okay, take your own pace.
It's fine, it's fun.

Speaker 2 (01:27:12):
Love your best life, John.

Speaker 4 (01:27:13):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:27:14):
Absolutely, Uh. Anyway, we.

Speaker 1 (01:27:20):
Have a good night, Thank you, thanks for calling. Love
you to death.

Speaker 2 (01:27:23):
Man, have a good night, have a great one. And
I think that's a nice positive. Yeah, I see again.
I have to hold my tongue. I can't pop that
cork for celebration just yet. I can't. Yeah, it's cool, can't.

Speaker 5 (01:27:35):
Well, I get and I understand why. I just that
that I have had I think, just recently, probably a
few more conversations with John than you have. So I'm
a little bit more convinced. And I have had like
people in the comments and the show comments telling me
that I'm being bamboozled by John, and I I think
he's being pretty genuine this time.

Speaker 2 (01:27:54):
I really do.

Speaker 5 (01:27:55):
And I do expect a little bit of backsliding from him,
because that would be normal.

Speaker 1 (01:27:59):
So yeah, well, I'm I'm weirdly considering how jaded I
can be. Sometimes I am optimist in the ability for
at least a person to change, if other people to change.

Speaker 2 (01:28:14):
I'll give some insider baseball to the folks who watch
this show. Okay, I have considered a personal ban on John.
I never been any callers like ever, and I've had
conversations with Kelly about this because every time every time
John is called, we get comments about it and people
complaining about it, and it doesn't seem like it's something
that people actually enjoy. I want to make a sure

(01:28:35):
that people enjoy, and if a particular caller is getting
in the way of that, you know, then maybe there's
something that to be said there. But I never went
through with it. I just let it call in and
we got his calls. We want his call, So again,
if this turns out to be part of our hard
work in talking to this guy. I'm going to be
celebrating right there with it. I just need a little
bit more time to see it, right, I know, a

(01:28:57):
lot of time enough. We'll get there, though, we'll get there.
On that note, Kelly, thanks so much for being back
up host today, and thank you Jamie for joining me
as host.

Speaker 1 (01:29:07):
I think it was a fantastic show. I think that
last call was a capstone for everything we're talking about
perception of atheism, when Monolith had some wonderful conversations. I
wish I could do this all night, but unfortunately, I'm
going to turn into a pumpkin in the next few minutes.

Speaker 2 (01:29:20):
So yeah, we'll wrap things up for you. One thing
I need to get out of the way is a
super chat that we got another generous donation from Godwin.
Thank you so much for that. It gave another dollar
ninety nine and said, how do you know optimism is
the good one? Which I mean, I don't know enough
about transformers low again, I need an expert.

Speaker 1 (01:29:40):
Yeah, I mean he seems to be more humanist at
least in terms of robotist.

Speaker 10 (01:29:47):
That sound like though, and everybody, yeah, bottle, but but
freedom is the right of all sentient creatures.

Speaker 1 (01:29:57):
I can get on board with that. So if he's
espousing that, then he's on the right foot at least
with me.

Speaker 2 (01:30:01):
That's true. That's fair. Kelly, what is our segment this week?

Speaker 5 (01:30:05):
Our promptly?

Speaker 2 (01:30:07):
We want the segment? Of course, yeah it is, I
said segment. But yeah, you know that's cool.

Speaker 5 (01:30:12):
I got I figured it out. I'm smarter than I look.
I have to keep telling people what do you not
want to be in the middle of when the apocalypse starts.
There's a lot of things open too, I mean, so.

Speaker 2 (01:30:25):
Leave a lot of things open. Leave a comment below.
I know you guys can come up with better answers
than we came up with.

Speaker 5 (01:30:30):
I came and I knew what the prompt was for
three or four days too, so it still couldn't come
up with a better answer.

Speaker 2 (01:30:36):
So if you want to stick around, there is an
after should that happens on the atheist community of Austin
fan discord server and Kelly is going to be in
there in just a second, and maybe me, maybe me
who we'll see for folks who are watching live, But folks,
until that happens, I need to say thank you so
much for watching today's episode of Truth Wanted. That about

(01:31:00):
wraps it up for another great episode. Remember to always
keep one the truth and I'll see you next time.

(01:31:29):
Watch the nonprofits and join the hosts in the live chat.
Visit tiny dot cc slash y t n b

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