Truth Wanted 08.36 09-05-2025 with Kelley Laughlin and @mikebrigandi_

In today’s episode of Truth Wanted, Kelley Laughlin and Mike Brigandi sort through nihilism and the utility of spiritualism. How would this life be different if our inherent and objective purpose is only to believe in things that are untrue?

Michelle in NY has some thoughts on the utility of god and spirituality; the earth exists because god wants us to feel good and if something is beautiful, it is true. How do we explain cancer in children based on this hypothesis? What is the difference between a cursed world and a natural world that has things you don’t like? The belief in unicorns and leprechauns may also help people feel good. How important is it that these things are true? How can untruthful statements that make you feel good, affect your life in negative ways? 

Tucker in IA is skeptical of nihilism and believes we have an inherent purpose to make this world a little bit better before we are gone. How do we know what our own inherent purpose is? If the purpose is to leave this world without regrets, how do we explain serial killers fulfilling their purpose? If purpose is not subjective, how can this objective purpose be linked with us?

Thank you for tuning in this week! Eli Slack, our back up host joins us to review the calls and remind us of the question of the week: Name a time believers don’t mind playing god. We will see you next week!


Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/truth-wanted--3195473/support.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Those of you who know me know that I am
really fascinated by cryptids, those often out of focus residents
of the dimly lick corners of the Internet. Bigfoot NeSSI chupacabras, dogmen,
relic dinosaurs, and giant slows are just some of the
animals hovering around the edges of science with one foot
in the realm of the fantastic. Do you think some

(00:22):
of these cryptid species may exist? Have you even maybe
had an crypted experience yourself? Is so we want to
talk to you, So give us a call because the
show is starting right now. Hello, and welcome to another
episode of Truth Wanted. I am your host, Kelly Laughlin,

(00:46):
and this is a live colline show that happens every
single week on Friday at seven pm Central Time, where
we talk to people about what they believe and why
they believe it. And if you'd like, you can call
us at one five one two nine two four to
two or through your computer at tiny dot cc slash

(01:07):
tw Truth Wanded is a product of the Atheist Community
of Austin, a five oh one c three nonprofit organization
dedicated to the promotion of atheism, critical thinking, secular humanism,
and the separation of religion and government. And every week
we have a special guest joining us here on the show,

(01:29):
and this week is no different. We have the master
of minced Morphine, the disputant of Deletarius debaters, the amazing
Mike Burgandhi, how you doing, Mike.

Speaker 2 (01:41):
I'm doing great. Thanks for having me and I appreciate you,
Kelly and justin de Construction Zone for inviting me on.
I'm excited to get going cool.

Speaker 1 (01:51):
Yeah, I'm really happy to have you here. It's a
really pleasure to meet you. So I'm looking forward to
having a really great show, get some great calls and
uh and here you actually debate live instead of having
to watch you on a recorded show. So we'll see
what happened what, We'll see what happens to what comes along. Now.
One of the things I wanted to do tonight is

(02:12):
a lot of all time fans of the show may
remember that we once did a feature that was kind
of unofficially known as Dan's Deep Dives. Dan always liked
the term the name truth bombs better, so I'm going
to stick with the name truth Bombs, and we are
going to be bringing them back as a weekly feature.
So I'm going to do our first truth bomb in

(02:32):
a long time tonight, and if Mike doesn't mind bearing
with me for a few minutes, I am going to
take a drink and get started on that. And today
I am going to talk about the Jabba Fi. Now,
I you know, if you're scheemish, sure you have your
have arachnophobe phobia, toy boat, toy boat, toy boat, this

(02:56):
segment might not be for you because we're going to
talk about the Jibba Fofi, which in Congolese means simply
very big spider. And this is supposedly a very big spider. Now,
I thought it would probably probably be good to start
this segment to talk about actual, really big spiders. And

(03:19):
I'm sure everyone is seen as Tarantula, but there is
actually spiders in real life that are quite a bit
larger than Tarantula's. And the giant goliath bird eating spider
of South America is the largest spider known. It is
serious nightmare fuel. Its body can be over five inches
long just the body and weighs three aces of a pound,

(03:42):
and it has a leg span of twelve inches. Now,
in two thousand and one, the giant Huntsman spider of
Loos was found and it has an even wider leg span,
but it's not as large. It has a small spinlely
body weighs several ounces less, but it's actually large in
lake span. Some of you may have seen photos that

(04:04):
were circulating around the internet a couple of years ago
of a giant five foot fossil spider. Those were fake.
There was never a fossil found like that. The largest
fossil spider ever found is the mongol Erachno Jurassica, and
it's just a wopping two and a half inches long.
So we don't even have like just like the five

(04:24):
foot centipedes, we don't have anything like that in spiders. Now,
is there any evidence for a jabab fofy?

Speaker 3 (04:32):
You know?

Speaker 1 (04:32):
If I'm sure a lot of you know how I
feel about the word evidence, And hopefully by the end
of this you'll understand why I feel the way I do.
But now picture this. It's eighteen ninety I'm gonna draw
a picture here for you. You're an English missionary in the
jungles of Uganda, and your journey journeying along the shores

(04:52):
of Lake Nyasa with several porters to carry your equipment
because you know you're a European lazy and you're rich,
and get the natives to do it. For two of
your reporters. They stumbled into a large, sticky web, nearly
impossible for them to get out of, so you go
to help them cut them out with your knife, when suddenly,
not one, but two giant spiders appear out of ambush

(05:16):
and rush towards you. These things are like four feet wide.
They attack the men caught in the webs. You draw
your gun. You're able to chase the spiders away by
shooting at them, but the porters have been bitten and
they die within twenty four hours. Now this sounds like
a really crazy story, I'll totally admit it totally does.
But English missionary, mind you, Arthur Simms declared it to

(05:39):
be true, saying it actually happened to him. And of course,
I mean he was a missionary, so he wouldn't have
wied right. But probably the most well known encounter with
the jabab Foefie occurred in nineteen thirty eight when Reginald
Lloyd and his wife were driving down a road in
the African jungle. And believe me, I try to nerve

(06:00):
it down to a location better than that when he
thought when he saw what he thought was a monkey
scurrying onto the road, but upon closer examination, it turned
out to be a three foot spider. So can a
spider that big actually exist? Now? Spiders have a strange
respiratory system called the book lungs. Book lungs aren't really lungs,

(06:24):
but they're called that because they're a bit of convergent evolution. Now,
since under most people understand what a lung does and
how it works, it's easier to call this alone because
it performs the same function even though it doesn't do
it in the same way. To put it simply, there
are cavities underneath the spider's abdomen, and these cavities contain

(06:49):
sheets of tissue that are stacked like pages in a book,
which is why we call them book lungs. And these
pages absorb oxygen straight from the air. Now, etymologists are
across the board. Across the board agreed that these booklungs
could not support a creature larger than the goliath bird
eating spider, even when the atmosphere was rich in oxygen

(07:11):
as I mentioned before, and there were five foot centipedes
the largest fossil spider was a whopping two and a
half inches, so we're pretty sure that these book lungs
that spiders have just couldn't support something that large. Now,
I suppose it could be possible that in an eracnid
evolved the more efficient way of breathing. I don't want

(07:33):
to roll out the black swan spider lung, but we
just don't have any evidence of that as of right now.
So it leads us to wonder if there is a
jabab fofy in the jungle or is it just complete,
completely fake or legendary. And it is possible. I think
that there might be a giant spider in the Congolese jungle.

(07:54):
I really do, in all honesty. I don't think it's
three to five feet in size, though I think most
of the descriptions of the spider say it dwells in
burrows or tunnels, possibly like a trap door spider, And
it could also be nocturnal and as such really seen
by people during the day. So can you imagine you're

(08:16):
alone in the jungle at night and you come across
the spider that is literally a foot across now, and
it's jumping out of a hole in the ground. Now, personally,
I'd start running and I wouldn't stop until I was
completely out of bront And I've known people that encountered
an inch long wolf spider, and in the retelling it

(08:38):
turns into a spider the size of a cat. And
I think that's what we have going on here, that
it's simply a case of fishermen's exaggeration. I caught a
spider this big, and that's it. And that's what I
got for you about the jabab Fofi. I'd love to
hear your comments about it. If you'd like to leave
a comment down below, we'd love to hear about that.

(08:59):
And speaking of comments down below. Every week we do
a segment called We Want the Truth, where we ask
a question of our fans and we pick the best
three answers for the next week and have our very
patient backup posts who's waiting in the wings come up
and read them for us. So, Eli, you want to

(09:19):
come on up here, and.

Speaker 4 (09:21):
Oh my god, Kelly, it's about time, is kidding? Yeah? Hey, guys,
So last week we asked you for the question of
the week. Everyone complete the sentence. Everyone knows that vampires
don't appear in mirrors, but few people know that they
also don't dot dot dot. And here are our top

(09:43):
three answers from last week from the comments. Number three
Chuck Gados, frequent contributor. Everyone knows vampires don't appear in mirrors,
but few people know that they hide their coffins and
obscure places to protect their bodies from rats, vultures, hyenas,
and medical students. I think it's a good one. Number
two from Peanut Handber. People don't know that vampires love garlic,

(10:08):
but they go through a huge number of epinephern autoinjectors.
That one lost me for a second at the beginning,
but you brought me back at the end. I'm there.
Number one Harry Nick Nicholas. Vampires have few regrets because
they can't reflect. And I think that's a pretty solid
number one.

Speaker 1 (10:26):
That's pretty solid, Prow well done.

Speaker 4 (10:29):
Those are our top three, and we're gonna have another
question for next week, which I'll get to in a second,
and you can have your answer read next week on
the streams. So next week's question is going to be
name a time believers don't mind playing god, Mike, do
you have an answer for this one?

Speaker 2 (10:49):
Name of time when believers don't play are playing God.
Let's see, I would say that when they are when
they wear glasses, for example, and the they have miraculously
somehow improved on God's design intelligently so called.

Speaker 4 (11:05):
Yeah, I'm kind of thinking along the same lines, Kelly.

Speaker 5 (11:08):
What about you?

Speaker 1 (11:09):
How about when it's time to judge people they don't like?

Speaker 4 (11:12):
Hmm, that's another good one. Yeah, mine, I was thinking
along the same lines as Mike. Circumcision. They don't seem
to mind making alterations to God's perfect creation right out
the gate, basically immediately. It's perfect except for this. So anyway,
that is our question for next week. Name a time

(11:33):
believers don't mind playing God. Put your answers in the
comments down below and we'll so. Look that's three best
ones to read out next week. Have a good show, guys.
That's it for me.

Speaker 1 (11:42):
All right, Thanks you, I appreciate it. We'll see at
the end of the show. See you left, And now
we get and now finally, after I've done all this talking,
we'll get the Mike. Hi, Mike, how are you doing great?

Speaker 5 (11:53):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (11:53):
Yeah, I was actually looking at a lot of your
work this week, and I was really impressed you're actually
a very good debater, and I didn't get to it.
I was looking at some of the other stuff and
I actually didn't notice it. But you mentioned before the
show you were working on a series with dinosaurs.

Speaker 2 (12:08):
Yeah, I have a TikTok account where I go through
all kinds of scientific explanations for things. I love talking
about pallionology, I love talking about space, and so recently
I've been doing a dinosaur series where you talk about
the origin of we found and discovered them and things
like that.

Speaker 1 (12:25):
That's awesome. And one of the things that I was
really surprised and happy to learn before the show is
that you have a background in geology as well.

Speaker 2 (12:32):
Yes, I do have a degree in geology, although currently
I'm not in a job that is utilizing it. But
that degree has helped me over time understand more through
science and it has improved my debate skills because of it.
And so yeah, I've been doing this for a few
years now and I love doing that.

Speaker 5 (12:51):
It's fun, and.

Speaker 2 (12:52):
I love that science is a way kind of like
a message the methods and principles of science or a
message to especially in today's time where people don't quite
have a scientific disciplining anymore, but scientific methods help make
help people understand how to think in a more critical way.

Speaker 1 (13:14):
Yeah, I totally agree with you there. Of course, I
obviously have a background of science as well, and this
whole like anti science revolution that we're experiencing right now
is real disheartening to me. So what are your thoughts
on that?

Speaker 2 (13:31):
Yeah, so I agree with you that there's like this
collective anti science movement going on. These are like rebellious
movements going on in social media, and I think it
largely has to do the fact that for the law,
I mean, there's very many reasons for it's multifaceted. But
I think underlying all this is a systemic issue with education.

(13:51):
I think that teachers focus a lot too much on
grades and focus on that, and students kind of get
lost in the science, which at heart is about curiosity,
and teachers sometimes don't facilitate that. But there's also the
the the problem in the fact that social media that
the way the culture of social media is who cares

(14:14):
about what I post online?

Speaker 6 (14:15):
I don't.

Speaker 2 (14:15):
I don't. There's no accountability. I can just post whatever
feels good and people will just accept it. And so
we've accepted this culture where we become lazy and we've
our standards of understanding and critical thought have declined through time,
and that has to change or else. What we're seeing
are these rebellions people just say Nope, I don't want

(14:37):
to I don't have to accept that.

Speaker 5 (14:38):
I'm going to go I'm going.

Speaker 2 (14:39):
To be guided based on what feels good. And that's
a big problem, right right.

Speaker 1 (14:44):
I'm going to I'm going to believe the stuff that
backs up what I want to believe, not what's true.

Speaker 5 (14:48):
Right exactly.

Speaker 1 (14:49):
It's frustrating, it really really is. I find it super frustrating,
really frustrating. Now I want to go back to the
dinosaur thing for a second, because I totally in fast
needed by dinosaurs as well. So what are you like
concentrating on specific species of dinosaurs or are we looking
at generalizations? Are you talking about how they fossilized, like

(15:10):
the different classes of dinosaurs? What are we doing?

Speaker 5 (15:14):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (15:15):
I wanted I like talking about it all right, I'd
like talking about every aspect of it.

Speaker 1 (15:19):
I was.

Speaker 2 (15:20):
One of my first videos was about Mary Anning. A
lot of people don't know about her. She's one of
the first people to really discover these extravagant fossils in
the southern coast of England in the eighteen hundreds, and
she offered lots of advice to scientists in the area,
but she didn't get credit for her work because back
then women didn't they weren't accepted in the geological society.

(15:44):
And so now you know, two hundred years later, we're
finally giving her credit for her work. But yeah, we're
talking about fossilization. We're talking about, you know, how dinosaurs
went extinct, certain unique features about them, like perhaps their
air sacks that people a lot of people don't realize this,
but dinosaurs are became large because mainly because of their

(16:05):
air sacks. Their bones are hollow, but they're very, very strong,
but they're hollow, allowing for space and cavities inside where
there could be air sacks that help them breathe more efficiently,
and that's what allowed them to become larger over time
versus other species. Yeah, so all these kinds of fascinating stuff.
I just love talking about inspiring people to learn more

(16:28):
about these topics because I know people think it's it's
who cares about that stuff, but it actually has implications
for how you see the world today, how we treat
other people, we treat animals. I think understanding more about
the world helps you appreciate it more and appreciate other
people and ultimately makes a world a better place.

Speaker 1 (16:48):
Yeah. I totally agree with that, and it really did
my heart good. They hear you mentioned it, Marianni, So
that was awesome. Yeah, discoverer the ichthyosaur. So yeah, yeah,
she she really got kind of shifted in her day, unfortunately,
and kind of just made a subsistence subsistence living by
selling fossils at the at the at the beach basically.

Speaker 2 (17:11):
Yeah, but she was very meticulous when she would get
these fossils. She was very meticulous, and she drew diagrams,
very elaborate diagrams, and she I mean that work was
given to the scientist. And uh so it wasn't just
that she you know, people said, oh, she's doing it
for the money. Well no, not necessarily, because first of all,

(17:32):
she didn't get paid that much. And more importantly, she
really cared and she was really curious. And back then
they didn't they didn't call these things fossils. Back then,
they called them curious, uh, curios, curios. And and because
I mean, these things were back then were like novel
things that nobody understood yet, and so discovering these things

(17:55):
was amazing. So today we take her for granted, but
back then it was a very important thing for them
to discover these things really amazing.

Speaker 1 (18:04):
One of my favorite old theories I'm going to use
it in the Culte colloquially of how fossils came about
was that a water spout had picked up these seeds
quote unquote seeds of life, and it had deposited them
on the rocks, and these animals had tried to grow
in the rock, just as they did in the water,
but because it was rock, they died and there where

(18:26):
they were stuck in the rock. I always thought that
was an extremely funny and hysterical explanation for how they
came to be, but it was a working idea at
one point.

Speaker 2 (18:38):
So yeah, Yeah, understandings of evall through time. And that's
also important to understand. When you stand science, you understand
that there are limits to your knowledge at the time,
and you have to take that into consideration. There are
certain biases you might have about something, you have to
take that all into consideration. And now in retrospect, we
see all the mistakes people have made in that has

(19:00):
helped improve the science. And that's the beauty of it.
It's a self improving machine that's been going on for hundreds.

Speaker 1 (19:07):
Of years now. If I'm going to ask you a hypothetical,
if you could, if you could go, you got the money,
you've got the time to study anything in geology, what
would you go study? Because I'm a rock nerd, I
gotta know.

Speaker 2 (19:21):
I would say anything to do with the the K
the K T Boundary, any any places around there. I
would love to study more about those areas. But also
the African Rift Valley. I think that was really that
was an important part for human evolution. That area is
just really geologically interesting. And yeah, so those areas as

(19:42):
well as Antarctica. I mean, I don't like the gold
That's why I am here in Florida, But at that time,
there's really amazing geology in Antarctica. Studying that studying and
that anything in that area is amazing.

Speaker 1 (19:57):
I always wanted. I was always fascinated by the neurology
of the Cola Peninsula in far north of Russia. But
the same thing I don't like to like when it
gets that cold I'm not never going to go there,
but I would love to. I really would. So we
do have a we do have a call. I don't
know if you'd like to go ahead and try to
jump into a call.

Speaker 5 (20:18):
Yeah, sure, that's let's skin in all right.

Speaker 1 (20:20):
I have to do one thing before we do though.
Every week we choose one of our Patreon, our patroons
over at Patreon, and we give them a shout out.
And this week we want to shout out to let
me see here, Don Nelson. Thank you very much, Don,
and I want to say thank you not only to you,

(20:41):
the amazing Don Nelson, but to everyone who donates through Patreon.
We really appreciate all our patrons. So and if you'd
like to help, you can find us at tiny dots TC,
tiny dot, cc slash, Patreon tw So, thank you very
much for that. And uh, let's go to see let's
jump into a call. Here we have Michelle from New York.

(21:03):
Shee her the utility of the utility of a belief
in God or God's and the supernatural is what she'd
like to talk about.

Speaker 7 (21:11):
So Hi, Michelle, that is how you guys doing good?

Speaker 1 (21:18):
So what I'd like to exactly what go ahead. I
was go ahead, I was going to ask you what
you wanted to talk about. We have a little bit
of a lag, so it's a it's a little confusing,
Sorry about that.

Speaker 7 (21:30):
Yes, yes, yes, so I'd like to go I guess
should we define the terms of spirituality and and utility first?

Speaker 3 (21:40):
I guess would would that be the right way we're out?
Maybe we want to make sure we were like in
gods and God in God? Where should we go first
to go to God and God's to find that and
then define spirituality and that sort of thing.

Speaker 1 (21:55):
Well, it's it's it's your, it's your, it's your talk.
So do you think you should start at Well, let's.

Speaker 3 (22:02):
Go with defining spirituality first, because I think when we
get into the realm of talking about a God or
God's that gets quite murky.

Speaker 6 (22:13):
For me.

Speaker 3 (22:14):
Spiritual spirituality is any sense of a connection to something
that is outside external, something external outside yourself that you
feel connected to, that makes you feel some sense of
belong in this because I think that God wants us

(22:35):
to feel at home on earth and in this universe,
fragared as it is. H And then if you want
to find God or me, God is not maximally powerful.
But I think he limited his power. I think if
he is all noway, I think he limited. Orthodox Church
believes that he may have actually limited his foreknoledge as

(22:57):
to keep people's free will intact. That's why it doesn't
work all in free will straight out and the utility
part of course. You know, I'm going to say some
things that you guys already mentioned, maybe that you don't
don't like. But I think when you come, when you
come to realize that the famous author said truth is
beauty and beauty truth that if there's anything beautiful in

(23:20):
faith or religion, or anything missed spiritual, it is beautiful.
It is a form of truth, no matter how intrinsic
we're subjective or objective, that truth is.

Speaker 1 (23:32):
Okay, we we got a whole bunch of stuff we
covered here, so I don't want to go too much
farther before we get a chance to respond. Mike, do
you want to take the first shot at.

Speaker 2 (23:41):
I'm just curious, what's the question here? You're saying that
God is God exists because he wants us to feel
happy and good and at home is exit.

Speaker 3 (23:52):
No, No, No, I think we exist. This earth exists
because in anything that because He wants wants us to
feel good and he and and anything that we're connected
to that exit extent external from us that makes us
feel connected to a greater, higher source. It is something
he wants us to be.

Speaker 2 (24:15):
Okay, so he wants you to So you're saying we
exist because God wants us to feel good and happy.
But we can look at you know, I mean this
immediately makes me think of the problem of evil. You know,
we can contrast the very good moments, and I agree
that there's amazingness happening in the world around us, but
there's a degree of problems, there's degree of evil that exists.

(24:37):
I mean, we can surely look at things like cancer,
you know, bone cancer, and children. I mean, why would
that exist under your hypothesis. It seems very unlikely that
God would want children to go through this.

Speaker 3 (24:49):
Yes, that is true. And I've often struggled with the
with the Odyssey question as well. I think that's the
ultimate question that really is the probably the biggest nail
in call. But you have to remember, okay, and I
don't normally go with about the creation story that I
know the best.

Speaker 2 (25:10):
So you agree that would be evidence against God right,
So you agree that what I just stated would be
evidence against God's existence?

Speaker 3 (25:17):
Correct, Yes, well, yes, of course, there's no doubt about it.
I mean, that's that's the Odyssey question is one of
the biggest nails in the cofin Okay.

Speaker 5 (25:24):
And so what what else? Now?

Speaker 2 (25:27):
What else is your hypothesis offering to the table so
that we can say, okay, which which one's more likely?

Speaker 5 (25:33):
Right, God existing or not?

Speaker 4 (25:35):
Right?

Speaker 2 (25:35):
What is going to move us towards the God's existence? Because, uh,
you know, we can put forth a kind of naturalistic
hypothesis that matches or exceeds your ability to explain the
world around you.

Speaker 3 (25:48):
So you could, yeah, you could. But this is a
fractured We live in a curse broken fracture in the world.
And of course God one who planted the tree of
the knowledge of goodden in the garden.

Speaker 2 (25:58):
But you say, but you say it's a cursed world.
But that's presuming your perspective on it. I mean, what,
clearly this world may be indifferent. Maybe the universe doesn't care.
You know, the universe doesn't have a care about us.
Why must it be that that we live in a

(26:18):
cursed world versus just a natural world that you don't.

Speaker 3 (26:22):
Like natural I don't like all of it.

Speaker 2 (26:25):
Yeah, you just don't have it. You just don't like it.
That's really what you're telling me.

Speaker 1 (26:29):
It seems I'm fine.

Speaker 3 (26:31):
I like world.

Speaker 5 (26:32):
I mean, I mean, there are some things you don't
like about, right.

Speaker 2 (26:36):
The things you call cursed are just things you do
not prefer to exist, That's what I mean, Like.

Speaker 3 (26:43):
Childhood, sex, slavery, are vague, gun poverty, childhood, cancer.

Speaker 2 (26:47):
Course, yes, yes, yes, The point is you're you're you're
equivocating here. You're saying that curse, a curse world must
uh entail God's existence, But it might just be that
it's a natural world that you just don't like.

Speaker 3 (27:02):
Right.

Speaker 2 (27:03):
I have preferences about things I don't like, but I
don't call that a cursed world because when you call
it a curse world, that implies that there is some
being that has a judge that's making a judgment on
the world, that the world is bad. Right, Why you
know or what we're doing is bad? Why why must
that be the objective facts a reality? Why can't we

(27:25):
just be in the world in which there are things
we like and don't like, and that's it.

Speaker 3 (27:30):
I think we're getting away from the main top. The
main point of my call and point of my call
is to say to me, God doesn't have to exist
in any form of reality for me to find utility
in believing in Aim.

Speaker 2 (27:44):
Oh okay, I see, so you're saying, well, okay, so
what kind of utility does it bring you to believe
in God?

Speaker 5 (27:49):
Makes you comfortable?

Speaker 3 (27:50):
For me?

Speaker 5 (27:52):
For me, yeah, what kind of utility does it bring
you to believe in God?

Speaker 3 (27:55):
The utility it brings me, It brings me fear of God, fung,
it makes, it makes seem a permanent if it's the
last always more because yeah, I.

Speaker 2 (28:09):
Yeah, So I agree that there there might be a
very minor level of utility, of positive utilitia that comes
about when you believe in these things. I mean, but
so it can believing in unicorns that give you money, right,
leprechns that make you rich, right, I can, those might
give me utility too, but they have no bearing on
its truth value.

Speaker 5 (28:29):
I mean, uh, it's.

Speaker 2 (28:30):
Going to be a very I mean, no one's going
to accept. I mean, would you accept if I said, uh,
believing in leprechauns giving me gold? Would that be evidence
of leprechauns too? Because I feel happy after their belief
for believing it if.

Speaker 3 (28:44):
It makes you happy. By biomes, I always work your
belief because I'm not one of these, I'm not a Fundamentally,
is it more important?

Speaker 1 (28:55):
Is it more important for you to feel good about
that belief rather then for that belief to be true? Okay,
all right? I mean that that you know gives us
a better idea of where you stand at. So I'm sorry,
I go ahead.

Speaker 3 (29:09):
Money hate that. I hate I hate that I have
to give you, guys, because I know you guys don't
like that answer. That's a real answer.

Speaker 1 (29:16):
You guys don't like No, I don't, I don't, I don't.
It's not that I disliked that answer at all. I
just wanted to see where we stood. There's no reason
for me to dislike that answer.

Speaker 2 (29:25):
There's so so where I would chime in here is
saying that I agree that there might be some positive
utility here, but there's nothing that this. I understand where
you're coming from. Right, you believe in God because it
makes you feel better about the existential questions about reality, right,
death and all these things. But that, again, presuppose is
that as an atheist, I feel bad, and there's some

(29:49):
kind of inherent nihilism as an atheist that is negative.

Speaker 5 (29:52):
No, I could. I could be an atheist and be
very happy. In fact, I am.

Speaker 2 (29:56):
I'm very content, and it's in what I'm confronted with,
these questions about where do we go?

Speaker 5 (30:02):
How do we get here?

Speaker 2 (30:03):
When I'm confronted with these questions, I don't cower away
and say, oh, I'm just going to believe in God
and make me feel comfy. I face these questions, and
I know from your perspective that might seem scary to
confront the mysteries of the world and say, oh, what
happens when we die? Maybe nothing happens, Maybe we just
turn to dust and that's it, right. That might scare
you initially, but when you face those demons and you

(30:26):
face those fears and you you could actually come out
of the other side of that with a reduced amount
with a diminished amount of fear, because you recognize, at
the end of the day, it's okay. If we turn
to dust and don't come back, it's okay. Right, there's
a kind of acceptance that occurs that.

Speaker 3 (30:45):
Yeah, that reminds recently, I was taking a ride on
something fun more fun right or mind over the soma
be names. But I was like in a transcendental meditation
for a few moments, I did not owe my body
or had so thought in my head. Then don't have
that out of it to ask my God, that's what

(31:06):
that is Socrates. Then we have nothing to fear of
death because it's your dream, no thought, and you can't
usual your body.

Speaker 2 (31:14):
Well, yeah, the point here is that you can be content.
You can face these existential questions with humility, with curiosity,
wonder and acceptance and say, yeah, this is it. Maybe
this is all we got in the people you love,
the family you have, that's all we have. And in fact,

(31:34):
in my view, it makes this life all that more
meaningful because this is all we got, right, the finitude
of it makes it all that more meaningful to me
versus what you're doing. It's kind of like, oh, I
feel better temporarily because I feel better, but in the
long term, you're you're you're missing out on all the appreciation,

(31:56):
the humility that comes from accepting our possible fates of
not coming back to this, you know, or not living forever.
I think there's a huge amount of utility in accepting
those things, and so yeah, that's just my perspective as
an atheist.

Speaker 1 (32:14):
Is it also possible that it might be dangerous to believe,
to like follow an idea because it makes you feel
good and then base life decisions on that feeling good,
the only to have it fail because it's not actually
a truthful statement, you know. So that's why I was
kind of surprised when you said it was more important

(32:35):
to feel good than to be truthful, because I mean,
it might make you feel really good right now, but
two weeks from now, it might all fall apart and
they're going to feel twice as bad as you're feeling
right now. So I always worry about, you know, whether
or not if the statement isn't truthful, whether that's going
to affect your life in a negative way if you
buy into the idea, the untruthful idea. Does that make

(32:58):
any sense to you at all?

Speaker 3 (33:00):
It's absolutely perfect times, Kelly, I tell you what it does.
And it's not a question I haven't thought about. What
about all the alcoholic drug addicts and people who turn
around their lives because they were in a hotel motel
where they read The Gideon Bought and some very sile
of it and dot say became Christians.

Speaker 1 (33:19):
Just because I now I could wait, wait, wait, wait
a minute, wait a minute, because I'm going to say,
I'm going to jump in right here. What about all
the drug addicts and the alcoholics who changed their life
without that Gideon Bible? What about I know I know
at least one ex drug addict alcoholic who changed their
life because they stopped believing in these type of things

(33:42):
that they realized that this supernatural entity was not going
to change my life and make it better. The only
thing that was going to do that was myself getting
up and making that change, wanting to make that change,
and doing the physical things that are needed to make
that change. So what do you think I mean, like,
I hear where you're coming from Turgideon's Bible, but there's

(34:04):
people on the other side as well. So I'm not
sure that that utility is that useful when you can
get to the same place without it.

Speaker 3 (34:12):
Can I answer you?

Speaker 1 (34:13):
I was just having.

Speaker 3 (34:16):
Just having this dialogue with someone three or four people
in his meeting room not too long ago or last
by last week, and I said, I said, I said him,
don't tell me you're like the fundee Christian who says, hey, mate,
I know what you think you have going on over here,
Come on over to my side. I'll show you the
I'll show you the real thing that you're just teaching

(34:38):
the same you're preaching. You're preaching to it to you're
preaching the same, the same thing. You just you're you
ain't preaching, You're just not preaching anything supernatural. The same
but the same message. We got the same, we got
a different.

Speaker 1 (34:50):
What believing in yourself? I'm not sure it's the same
message because the message I was just talking about was
believing in yourself, not in the supernatural being.

Speaker 3 (34:59):
But if he's your and he helps you and he
wants to that.

Speaker 1 (35:03):
There's no butt here. I don't think I don't think
you're understanding what I'm saying. Right, there's not a The
two things aren't the same because I one one is
saying there's not a supernatural being and I can make
this change without it, and the other one is relying
on a supernatural being that may not exist and making
that change. So I know, you know you, you yourself exist.

(35:28):
So instead of relying on a thing that might not exist,
why not rely on yourself to make that change?

Speaker 3 (35:34):
Hey, if alcoholics and drug addicts are getting free. I'm all,
if they're stopping, if they're stopping beating it on their wives,
are getting set free and not beaten on their wives anymore.
And alcoholics, you are getting free. I don't care how
it's done, to stay off the fucking drug. Doesn't that look?

Speaker 2 (35:50):
Look, we can agree that there there is some utility here.
You know, if somebody is going through a terrible time
in their life and there and their belief in God
might help them to some degree get out of that.

Speaker 5 (36:01):
Yeah, we're saying that's okay.

Speaker 2 (36:02):
But but at the same time, it doesn't have to
be the case that God is the belief that is
the only one that can do that.

Speaker 3 (36:09):
Right.

Speaker 2 (36:09):
The point is that there are other ways of seeing
the world that can get you out of this, that
can get you two better times. And so the point
I'm trying to say is that that the belief in
God is not somehow unique in this. There's no exclusivity
with the God view that somehow makes you a better
person only exclusively with this view. Right there, there's alternative

(36:33):
views that I.

Speaker 5 (36:34):
Would argue do an even better job.

Speaker 2 (36:36):
If you actually think and take the time to ponder
what you're believing right, a secular point of view could
do a far better job in helping your in your life.

Speaker 5 (36:47):
Are okay?

Speaker 2 (36:48):
So you agree with me that you agree with me
that there are holes in the God belief. You agree
with me that there's more possible utility and not believing
in God? Why do you continue believing in God?

Speaker 3 (36:58):
I've spent an hour in an hour weeping just because
because he was loved, because he's just loved to my
heart and I felt so and I felt as big
what he has for me and the rest he managed,
and I was weeping utter tears. And to me, that's
a super natural encounter the vine and for me to
take when you say anything better than that, the truth

(37:19):
that's higher than that, that that takes something sacred away
from me, that takes something special away from me? Can
that can can you see that that is there something
I still take anything true of that moment, of those
moments and if there is no God.

Speaker 2 (37:34):
We're not saying you can't have a special moment. What
we're saying is ultimately your belief in God is unfounded.
There's no substance there. And the reason the reasons why
you believe in God I think are just baseless. You're
basing it on emotions. If anything, right, this is just
an appealed to emotion.

Speaker 5 (37:54):
Oh, I felt a.

Speaker 2 (37:55):
Certain way, I had a certain experience. I was out
of body and there for God. That's him speaking to me.
This is a common inference to me. But I think
it's invalid. I think it's invalid to say I felt good,
therefore God talked to me. I think that doesn't make
any sense, and we have to do further investigation. You
understand your situation.

Speaker 3 (38:15):
Your premises. Your premises are sound, and you gotta be true.
I've got to sense to you. I'm a game pass
of studying religion, and not just Christianity. I mean, all
the page iving religion is that we're done by it
all intact. But yeah, but Kelly, that const was interacted
at you. I want you to know. I just got no.

Speaker 1 (38:36):
That's cool. I would give you know what honestly. Honestly,
even if it was I wouldn't have taken it personal.
So don't worry about that. I've got I'm sixty five
years old. I got a pretty thick skin by now.
So I have to say, though, when it like when
you were talking before about how you know you didn't
want to turn your back on all of these years

(38:58):
of belief in this and you and you this feeling
that you had and I couldn't help, but thinking this
kind of sounds like a sunk cost fallacy. You know
that I've invested so much into this that I'm going
to keep investing in it even if it's a bad investment,
because I don't want to admit that I've already invested
so much into it. Do you know that? Do you

(39:18):
understand the sunk cost fallacy?

Speaker 3 (39:20):
I've never heard of it, but I'm getting it.

Speaker 1 (39:23):
And I had learned that lesson when I was very
young with one of my very first cars. Bought a
used car and kept sinking money into it every time
it would break down, and it would just break down
again six months later, And by by the time two
years had gone by, I could have taken the money
I had invested in this old, beat up car and
actually bought myself a much better car. But I had

(39:45):
but I had to keep this one running because I
had already invested so much money in it. I didn't
want to just let it go.

Speaker 8 (39:54):
You guys are good, you know me, I call I
call I call Flien stuff, and like, I just think,
if ever I could pull something.

Speaker 3 (40:07):
Out that would entrust these guys watch like a good
sound argument for any sakes, I feel bit way better
about myself for some reason. This might believe you.

Speaker 1 (40:17):
Know what, Michelle, I'm impressed by your by your persistence
in trying to find that. That's impressive in and of itself.
So keep that, keep that up because that's that's that's
your sense of curiosity and your sense of wanting to
think better, working and that, and you don't give that up.
Keep working that.

Speaker 3 (40:35):
But if if the god thing is point why should
I Why should I mean, should I give it up?

Speaker 8 (40:41):
Though?

Speaker 3 (40:41):
Why you're saying, you're saying, don't give it up? But
if the god thing is pointles, shouldn't I give that?
Shouldn't I give that up?

Speaker 1 (40:47):
I wasn't talking about your belief in God. I'm talking
about your your desire to know and to find and
to find better arguments. That's what I think is good.

Speaker 5 (40:57):
Yeah, I would.

Speaker 2 (40:58):
I would advise you to continue learning, keep learning, keep
asking questions. You're on the right track, you're learning, You're
asking the right questions. That's the whole part of all
this right, I'm not. We're not necessarily here to say
we have their truth and you must believe this. What
we're saying is investigate the world. Let's probe it, let's
poke it, let's see what happens. And that's how we

(41:18):
discovered the truth. Sometimes it might make mistakes, we might
be wrong, we might have beliefs that are wrong, and
that's what we have to accept if you want to
know the truth.

Speaker 3 (41:27):
Right, Hey, do you guys want to know the number
one reason why I want Jesus to be Lord and
come back in the sky. Number one why is that
I can be the first person to notice he's riding
on the notice he's riding on the clouds, and look
up in point and say.

Speaker 6 (41:41):
Holy shit, Jesus fucking Christ.

Speaker 1 (41:48):
I'll admit that would be fun. Oh my god, there
easy got a halo and everything. Shit, Oh I know
where I'm going.

Speaker 3 (42:01):
Okay, guys, you've been more than Grace's with your time.
I'll let you go.

Speaker 1 (42:05):
Thanks Michelle, thanks for calling in, and you know I
encourage you to call back. You know, I know we've
talked before and I'd love to talk again.

Speaker 2 (42:12):
So thanks all right?

Speaker 1 (42:14):
That one, well, Mike, thank you, Thank you.

Speaker 5 (42:16):
Thanks talking to you.

Speaker 1 (42:17):
Yeah, that one very well. I was happy with that one.
And we've got another call in the cue. But I
want to make a few announcements. You can get your
truth Wanted merch I think I got a truthmanded mug
up there at by visiting tiny dot cc slash merch Aca.
We got t shirts, hooties, mugs, hats, all kinds of
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(42:41):
own nonprofit smug over there. And another way you can
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that we can read them, we will read them and
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truth Wanted, if we get a super chat, we will
stop and do a super truth and throw out a

(43:02):
weird random fact at you. So that will be in
effect this evening as well. And you can become a
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It costs I don't think it costs that much at all,
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(43:22):
and it will give you early access to YouTube shorts
and clips and last but not these and this, and
I really really really mean this tonight because we had
a ton of problems tonight. One of our crew members
actually hopped in their car rushed over to the library
to work on the equipment. And I want to say
that the crew is amazing, springing the crew came up

(43:46):
to see it. Everybody give a big hand up to
the crew because they are the real heroes here. They're
the guys who make the show work. They are the
people that I look up to. So really seriously, they
did a great job tonight, got us work in just
minutes before we went on live, so they were it
did great.

Speaker 5 (44:04):
Yeah, thank you guys.

Speaker 1 (44:06):
And with that, I think I think we should go
and get ahead and take this second call. And this
is Tucker Dave dem and Iowa. Tucker is skeptical of
nihilism and feels that our lives do have a purpose. Hi, Tucker,
how are you? Haven't talked in a while?

Speaker 6 (44:20):
Yead a minute, hasn't it high? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (44:24):
How you've been?

Speaker 6 (44:25):
I'm sorry? What's your you know, up and down? Normal
life things? How about you?

Speaker 1 (44:31):
We're gonna make the same thing, you know, right? Yeah?
We better not because everybody doesn't want us too. But yeah,
same things, you know, the same ship, different flies pretty much.

Speaker 6 (44:43):
Exactly, although I do have one slid in here for
about a week. Tired of it. Anyway, I'm sorry that
I remember.

Speaker 1 (44:51):
Your co Mike, Mike.

Speaker 5 (44:53):
Nice to meet you.

Speaker 1 (44:55):
Amazing, Mike, amazing.

Speaker 6 (44:57):
So I think that my story might to intersect a
little bit with Michelle. You had a great conversational there,
and what I'm hearing, what I heard from him was
that his belief, uh you know him right. So I
would say that most most Christians did not believe in Nihili.

(45:21):
But I do believe that we do have a purpose,
and I believe that that purpose is to make our
world a little bit better after we're gone. So I'm
not necessarily saying there's going to be any in reward
for me except on my desk. If I can go
without regret, then I will have fulfill my life. And

(45:43):
that's a conversation I had with my dad a few
years before he died, when death and after life came up,
and that's something that he always wrestled, something he always
wrestled with when I was in the church. I tried,
uh well, I tried to say not know Bundy, and
that backfired wildly. But towards the end of his life,

(46:07):
he he started to really think about any uh uh,
the Lakota religious traditions. He he was very heavily into
the spiritual beliefs and practice are playing I think in
comfort from that Native Americans don't.

Speaker 1 (46:27):
Can I ask you cation.

Speaker 6 (46:28):
Tuckerda Yeah, yeah, yeah, because.

Speaker 1 (46:32):
I want to I want to get I want to
get back to the topic here if about whether we
have an inherent purpose or not. If we did have
an inherent purpose, do you think we would all know
what that purpose was.

Speaker 6 (46:45):
I think we all have our own way of fulfilling that,
some of us post Collins shows well.

Speaker 1 (46:52):
That that's kind of where I was going. I'm not
so sure that it's an inherent purpose so much as
a purpose that we ourselves choose.

Speaker 6 (46:59):
But I think ultimately that purpose, as I said, is
be able to leave this world without regret. However, but
the individual can accomplish that, and they can accomplish that
by doing the things that are come naturally to them.

Speaker 1 (47:16):
Understand Okay, so so so Jeffrey Dahmer, I was going
to go That's where I was thinking.

Speaker 2 (47:23):
Natural, natural, you know, calling us to do those things
he did, you know, consume consume human somehow, you know,
do you have this terrible thing? Would you say that
was his inherent purpose?

Speaker 4 (47:36):
You know?

Speaker 6 (47:37):
No, No, I don't. I'm saying that the inherent purpose
for every human is to die without regret. Jeffrey Dahmer, right, right?

Speaker 1 (47:47):
What if?

Speaker 2 (47:48):
What if that was the way he saw it, that
he would live doing those things and he wouldn't regret
doing those things.

Speaker 1 (47:55):
That that's that's my that's the idea. What the idea
I was thinking about is be because we don't all
think the same way, so we might think other ways
of getting out of that regret. Right, So, so like
your way of your way of relieving that regret might
not be the same way that I would relieve that regret,
or that Mike would relieve that regret or Eli our
backup post to. So it's hard to say, you know

(48:18):
what that purpose is if we're all not having the
same purpose.

Speaker 6 (48:24):
I think that you're missing him saying because you basically
repeated you know when you say you and Mike, Eli
and everybody has a different way of thinking, acting, No,
making the world a better place.

Speaker 1 (48:38):
And that that's but but we don't have to all
think that we're making the world a better place. That's
what I think you're missing, Tucker, that not everybody thinks
that they need to make the world a better place.

Speaker 6 (48:50):
And I'm still working through that. Okay, I don't have
a definitely. My preliminary thoughts on that are that like
got twisted up somehow, and.

Speaker 2 (49:04):
Okay, but how My concern is that you are saying,
you're putting forth this idea that there's this purpose that
everybody has and is to do better wriddenly without regrets.
But again, how are we gauging what is objectively going
to be the case for every person, what their purpose
is supposed to be? And this is what you're putting forward.

(49:24):
Everybody has a purpose that we can objectively verify.

Speaker 5 (49:27):
How do we do that? That's the problem.

Speaker 2 (49:29):
And if you can't do that, well, then I can
agree that we have purpose, but it's not it's subjectively
the case that we have purpose, and we can we
can make value judgments about the world subjectively, and so
we can be purposeful by our own choices without having
to adhere to some kind of objective purpose.

Speaker 6 (49:47):
Sometimes you can be purpose in your own This is
not a dog guy. It's not a commandment, This is
not a spiritual thing. This doesn't come from the spiritual.
This comes from six decades on this earth where I
spent literally six decades finally to stand that I had

(50:09):
a purpose and I was able to fulfill that purpose
my last few years at work. And I will look
around at people who are making a difference, see that
they are. They have different talent and different goals and
different ways of meeting those goals. And I think, like
I said, I haven't I haven't completely figured this all out.

(50:33):
But I think that if there is a person who
is doing harm, and I know that there are people
out there who be leave it's their job to do harm. See,
they think they're doing they think they're doing their perth.
They have they have missed the signals or twisted them

(50:54):
up somehow.

Speaker 2 (50:55):
Okay, yeah, and that's that's the thing I'm concerned about.
How do you know the signal the chow signals they
are That's the question, right, where are the true signals
coming from?

Speaker 6 (51:03):
I'm saying it's different. It's it's different for every person
to uh to each his own ability.

Speaker 2 (51:12):
Okay, so you're saying it comes from within intuitively yes, yes, okay,
well that well we can agree that intuitively we have
very strong convictions about what we ought to do, what
we should be doing, and how we should be living
our lives. But again, this fits, This is compatible with
a with a view in which there's no objective purpose.

Speaker 3 (51:32):
Right.

Speaker 2 (51:33):
I think you're conflating the two. You're you're conflating the
strong conviction somebody has in their purpose versus uh, with
you know, objectivity. Right, there's a difference. Yes, right, you
can have something, you can have a very strong intuition
about something, yet it not be objective.

Speaker 6 (51:48):
I'm not saying that this is a mindless you know,
following of some impulse. It's not impulse. It is you
feel intuitively what you can do according to your ability
to live the life that will end the regret And uh.
And I know that you're going to keep up, keep

(52:09):
on bringing up, you know what about people like Jeffrey Dahmer.
And all I can say to that is that you know,
we're each responsible for examining those impulses or intuitions and
judging whether or not they advanced overall good And if

(52:30):
you're not, you have a responsibility to check out why
you're getting those impulses and people like Jeffrey Dahmer never, never,
tried never, And how.

Speaker 8 (52:40):
Do you know that?

Speaker 2 (52:41):
How do you know that Effrey number wasn't following his
objective purpose?

Speaker 1 (52:46):
That that's that That's what I was trying to think
of before, is like, you know, you keep saying that
we have different ways of this this is why we're different.
We have different ways of achieving this purpose. But the
thing is, and I think that's something that Mike and
I have been trying to get cross, is that we
don't all have the same purpose. It's not a question
of having different ways of getting to the purpose. It's

(53:07):
that we just have different purposes. And I think that's
where we're running into the problem between what you're saying
and what we're saying.

Speaker 6 (53:14):
So you don't ultimately think that ultimately our our Okay, so.

Speaker 1 (53:19):
I hear it purpose leave the world better than I
found it. I believe it's my purpose to leave the
world in a better place than I found it. And
I know you've heard me say it's not about what
you you know, if you've been bad or good in
the past, it's about being better every day and making
the world around you better every day. Right, But that's
my purpose, that's not inherent to everybody. That's what I

(53:42):
But that's just my inherent that's my inherent belief. But
my belief is not the same belief that everybody has.
Not everybody has that same purpose that I have. Even
though you and I might have a common have that
as a common purpose, certainly everyone does it.

Speaker 6 (53:57):
So you don't think everyone wants world without regret, I don't.

Speaker 1 (54:01):
I think a lot of people don't care about regret,
and I think a lot of people don't care about
making the world a better place.

Speaker 6 (54:08):
And those are the people that never never. I'm not
saying that. I mean, you're born to you were born
to make the world a better place by hosting truth
and dang you were I hope to make the world
a better place by.

Speaker 1 (54:27):
No, it's it.

Speaker 6 (54:29):
It is based partially on number one. You've got to
recognize that everything you do has an impact on the
world one way or another. Sure, maybe just within your familiar.

Speaker 1 (54:40):
You've heard my butterfly speech, right, it seems you know,
like the butterfly effect, everybody be the butterfly. Just doing
a little tiny thing changes the whole world.

Speaker 6 (54:51):
Right, Yeah, that the changes the world.

Speaker 2 (54:54):
Look, I think you're speaking to something deep. You're speaking
to something very deep. There's an evolutionary read reason why.
I think people have that natural intuition because a lot
of us are caregivers. We care about our children. You
want our children to succeed. And you know that's what
kept us and our tribes or local tribes. We're very
tribal animals, and so evolution describes as perfectly as to

(55:17):
why most of us typically care for others and try
to be empathetic. And of course you're going to be
anomalies or people don't care, right, But I think this
is perfectly in alignment with you know, a kind of
view in which purpose is subjective. It's there's no and
you keep pinting to there's got to be a reason
why everybody has this purpose. There's got to be everybody

(55:38):
must have this purpose, or there must be some kind
of objective purpose that the world instills in us. I
think that's the problem that there's the missing there's a
missing link there. You haven't linked this objective purpose with us.

Speaker 5 (55:51):
Does that makes sense?

Speaker 6 (55:52):
I think that I get what you're saying. I just
think that I'm not connicating very well and and that
definitely your point, definitely more thought. Yeah, yeah, wow, you
guys just really making me think.

Speaker 1 (56:10):
Sorry Tucker, Sorry Tucker, No.

Speaker 6 (56:14):
No, no, don't be sorry. That's why I called.

Speaker 1 (56:19):
I'm just I'm just kind of I was just joking.
I love to make people think, and I'm glad Mike
helped Golong with that too. Actually, probably Mike did more
than I did.

Speaker 6 (56:27):
So oh. You know me, I generally bounce back and
figure things out. And if I make a change, if
I have to say, Mike, where can I do you
have content? Where can I find it?

Speaker 2 (56:42):
Yeah, TikTok YouTube, I'm out there, search my name, you'll
find it.

Speaker 6 (56:47):
This Mike what I'll find you.

Speaker 1 (56:52):
Ill. We'll talk about it too at the end of
the show.

Speaker 6 (56:54):
So okay, great, great, Well, thanks for taking my call, guys,
and are a good show. Good talk a lot.

Speaker 1 (57:02):
Well, Thanks for Colin, Tucker. I always appreciate talking to you.
I was expected to get a Vegan call tonight.

Speaker 2 (57:08):
To be honest with you, I'd be fantastic if we could.

Speaker 1 (57:13):
Yeah, I honestly thought we were going to were. Still
we have some open lines, folks. We still have some
time if you'd like to call in and talk to Mike.
I would call in and talk to Mike. Yeah, if
I wasn't already on the show, I would totally be
calling and talk to you. I've totally been enjoying listening
to you. I've been sitting back going, Wow, this is
freaking awesome. So uh yeah, maybe we should bring Eli

(57:37):
up and we can talk about some of the things
that we did get, some of the calls we did get.
Let's bring hither he is there's my buddy good show.

Speaker 4 (57:45):
Yeah, I agree with Kelly Mike. It was a lot
of literally entertaining to listen to it. Awesome and I'm
glad you were here.

Speaker 2 (57:51):
Yeah, the first call was Both calls are great, but
the first call I think we had a good conversation
and it was really good points raising both sides.

Speaker 1 (58:00):
I agree, what did you What did you think of them?
Sell's call?

Speaker 4 (58:03):
By and large, I agree with the two of you.
I think that utility doesn't outweigh harm. So even if
religion did provide some sort of novel benefit, which I
don't think that it does, which is no benefit that
we can't get from some secular source, I don't think
that that would would you know, merit keeping it in

(58:25):
while ignoring the harm that it also causes. So I
think the question isn't whether it has utility. I think
the question should be whether it causes harm and whether
you can get that utility elsewhere. And I think in
the case of religion, the answer is yes on most
of those counts.

Speaker 5 (58:42):
So yeah, I mean, that's as.

Speaker 4 (58:43):
Far as Michelle. But for for what Tucker had to say,
I think I think that the primary like biological purpose,
if you want to call it, that, is to just survive.
And for most yeah, for most organisms, you know, pass
on your genes as well, but that is just part
of surviy, right, that's so that your DNA can survive.
So it still ties back to that primary, you know,

(59:07):
instinct to just continue living. So I think everything else
is just culture, society, and you know, any things we
tiey that. For humans and other social animals, surviving includes
cooperating with other like organisms for most, for most of us,
in cases like Dahmer or in many other cases, that
instinct to cooperate is subdued, and sometimes it's replaced by

(59:29):
other instincts. Like I wonder what that tastes like, And
I yeah, like I don't think everybody comes to the
same conclusion that like, oh, like I should leave the
world without regrets. I think a lot of people, you know,
do end up leaving the world with regrets but still
feel like they did what they were supposed to have
done in life. And that's because of the harm that
we're talking about from before, from from these belief systems
that you know, impose the idea to live life a

(59:53):
certain way.

Speaker 1 (59:54):
Yeah, I'm sorry, Mike. I was just gonna say real quick,
I think some belief systems like make regret a part
of life and go ahead. That was all I wanted
to say.

Speaker 2 (01:00:04):
I was going to say that a lot of when
you when you when your beliefs do not align with truth,
he might think it gives you temporary comfort, but it
might inadvertently cause down the road issues with I mean
good example of this is people who refuse to learn
the science because of their belief in God. And then
this uh, this uh proliferates through social media and other places,

(01:00:27):
and so people feel that I feel no longer to
feel the need to care about science or facts or
truth because oh, God's going to do it right. Oh,
we don't care about climate change because God is going
to take care of it, or we don't care about,
you know, the terrible things happening the world because God
is going to save us.

Speaker 4 (01:00:45):
You know.

Speaker 2 (01:00:45):
So those comfortable beliefs, they might feel good, but they
might have terrible impacts on society when it's when they're
confronted with reality.

Speaker 5 (01:00:56):
I agree.

Speaker 1 (01:00:57):
Yeah, well, saying that that trap of real lying and
the supernatural thing to make the world better too, like
praying to God or you know, whatever it is that
you do that I fell, and you know I talked
about the drug addicted alcoholic. I was obviously talking about myself.
And it was when I finally gave up those supernatural beliefs,

(01:01:17):
when I finally stopped waiting for something outside me to
make the changes in me that I needed to change.
That's when I realized that I needed to make those changes.
So for me, it was getting rid of those supernatural
beliefs that helped me make my life better.

Speaker 4 (01:01:32):
I thought that sounded familiar.

Speaker 2 (01:01:34):
Yeah, yeah, I would say as a Christian, because I
used to be Christian about you know, over ten years ago,
I would say that my life today's an atheist, is
I feel far better off?

Speaker 5 (01:01:44):
I feel far I mean this is anecdotal, but I'm.

Speaker 2 (01:01:47):
Saying that that initial comfort you might perceive you yet
from religion is going to down the road.

Speaker 5 (01:01:53):
It could clearly lead.

Speaker 2 (01:01:55):
To a worse off perspective of the world. I feel
like I'm farm were tolerant than I ever was, and
feel I feel more accepting of others. And we see
this a lot with religious people get stuck in those pipeline,
those bubbles where they refuse to look at the other
options available to them because they are just very strongly

(01:02:17):
convicted in their belief in God. And so now these
are things that you might not see as a Christian
or a theist, but you know, we need other perspective.
That's why other perspectives are important.

Speaker 4 (01:02:27):
Yeah, I agree, I had that thought at one point
during one of the calls. I'm way more comfortable with
mortality at this point as a non believer than I
ever could have been as a believer.

Speaker 2 (01:02:35):
So yeah, those are the places where people get scared
to go. You know, they get scared face that those
harsh realities. But I think when you do it, you
come out of it like, oh, saying not bad, It's okay,
We're here, we're alive, We're chilling, and that's you have
to kind of face your demons.

Speaker 5 (01:02:56):
In a way.

Speaker 4 (01:02:57):
Yeah, yeah, totally agree.

Speaker 5 (01:02:58):
Kelly.

Speaker 4 (01:02:59):
What do you think at sir your show?

Speaker 1 (01:03:01):
Yeah, well, I guess it is my show tonight. I
was just like, no, it's the show, but I guess
tonight it is my show. So I was looking at
one of our people at our text chat, wass the
Humans said that we should ask Mike how he feels
about specialism, which is spark a fun conversation between him
and I.

Speaker 4 (01:03:21):
So can you handle it in thirteen minutes?

Speaker 1 (01:03:25):
Yeah, that's what I was thinking. I don't think we
could do a good one in thirteen minutes, but yeah,
it might. We probably should have gotten to it earlier.
It might have been a fun conversation. I know I've
been been railed on about my beliefs on that so
and I don't think people understand the nuance that I
put into my idea, so because I do have a

(01:03:45):
pretty nuanced opinion on it. So it's been people seem
to miss that nuance a lot.

Speaker 5 (01:03:51):
So interesting.

Speaker 1 (01:03:52):
We should talk about it later. I want to hear this.

Speaker 5 (01:03:54):
Yeah, I'd I'd be down for that.

Speaker 1 (01:03:58):
Well, next time you come back, we'll get we'll do
we'll try to get all vegan calls at next time,
so that'd be awesome. I feel like we're just dragging
some time out. We're just just short of the end
of the show, so we I think, you know, maybe
start now. You know what, Let's let's do a couple
of things. First. Number one, Mike, if people wanted to
find you, and I'm sure people do because you were

(01:04:20):
freaking awesome here tonight, where can people find you at heck?

Speaker 2 (01:04:23):
Yeah, yeah, thank you for that kind words. You can
find me on my TikTok channel. It's just my name,
that's my handle on everything, just Mike Burgandi TikTok. I
have lots of science videos you would love, some videos
about religion, some videos about other things, philosophy, per apps.
But my YouTube channel is where I have the longer

(01:04:44):
form content where I do debates. I post on my
debates there, so yeah, you can find them. Find me
out on YouTube and TikTok.

Speaker 1 (01:04:53):
I watched several of your debates this week to get it.
Because I'll be honest with you, Mike, I had never
heard of you until I found out I was going
to be hosted this week, So yeah, I really enjoyed
what I saw there, so I really encourage everybody else
to go check them out. He did a great job debating,
thank you, thank you very much, and Dan before Dan

(01:05:15):
Always before he wraps up the show, he always likes
to ask the guests, do you have any wards of
wisdom for us? I don't know what just happened. I
lost video and audio. I don't know if anybody can
still hear me.

Speaker 5 (01:05:26):
I can hear you. I don't see anything though.

Speaker 1 (01:05:29):
Yeah, so I don't know what was going on. So
I guess that's it for us this night, this evening.
I would love to have everybody come back and watch
us again. Next to me, as I mentioned, we did
have a lot of tech problems before the show. Apparently
some of them have come back. We're getting hit by
the gremlins, and with that, I think maybe we'll just
wrap it up and remember, folks, get out there and

(01:05:52):
keep wanting the truth.

Speaker 5 (01:06:13):
Watch the nonprofits, and join the hosts in the live chart.
Visit tiny dot c cy slash y t N