Episode 51: Marvin Gaye's "I Want You"

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Cliff (00:00):
You're listening to Toondig, a conversation between two
lifelong friends about the powerof music, one album at a time.
I am Cliff Seal.

Kyle (00:07):
And I'm Kyle Stapleton.
Each episode, we talk about a singlealbum in depth, unpacking it through
conversation to understand what makesit worth appreciating and learning a
little bit about life along the way.

Cliff (00:16):
If you're listening for the first time because we're covering an artist
or a record you love, we can promise youwill learn something new or gain a new
perspective by the end of the episode.

Kyle (00:25):
And if you've stuck with us for multiple episodes, you know, by now that
you're bound to expand your horizons aswe share clear entry points for artists.
You may have never triedto get into before.
Today, we're talking about,I want you by Marvin Gaye.
We are back.

Cliff (00:40):
Once again, dragged into submission by the people that we've
met out in this world who seem tothink that you and I talking into
microphones together about musiccreate some sort of joy in their life.
Which I continue to be bothdelighted by and shocked by.

Kyle (00:57):
have such a hard time rectifying the, steadily deteriorating hell hole.
That is the internet landscape withthe great things that have been
wrought from talking about music andthrowing it into the internet void.
like getting hit up by a.
Vinyl bar in Bangkok, Thailand who wereplaying some of our music recommendations

(01:20):
at their listening station.

Cliff (01:22):
Yep

Kyle (01:22):
How does that happen?
Music is a, is a beautifulthing far beyond us.
And I think we're going to betalking about a particularly
beautiful piece of music today.
Quite excited about it.
It's the, I think, longest break we'veever taken from the one record at a time.
We've done some really cool sort ofdiversions that I'm, pleased as punch

(01:44):
with, namely deep diving into heavy music.
but it's good to be back with like theOG format it is a little different now
though, because it's tied into this sortof new chapter that we're exploring.
We somewhat psychopathically builta whole calendar, with a different

(02:05):
album recommendation every day.
Precision engineered for maximum diversityof all stripes day over day in your life.
So 366 new albums taking the algorithmand the stupidity and the junk out of it.
Just one new thing to focus on eachday in a little bit of meditative

(02:25):
fashion and to your point, just like.
gobsmacked that a one single humanperson that's not us cares at all
but just the volume and passionof the response has been crazy.

Cliff (02:36):
all we can do is trust the joy that we are putting together and then
putting back out about just music ingeneral, but you know, we'll probably
talk more about this not only in thisepisode, but in future ones, we've got an,
a special focus now, I think on learningto extract joy from music as a discipline,

(02:58):
in any scenario, in any context, almostno matter what you're listening to.
And I'm sure we'll talk more about.
Some of the reasoning behind thatcalendar idea, but the way that having a
predetermined thing to listen to each dayputs you in a different position relative
to music and gives you the challenge ofsaying, okay, I don't get choice today.

(03:23):
Today I get this one bit ofmusic and today I'm going to
figure out how to like it.
and that's a fun

Kyle (03:32):
or you know, think about, think different thoughts, and then walk
away and never listen to it again,but be glad that you did the thing.

Cliff (03:39):
like is relative, I guess, but the ability to appreciate something,
not just in a kind of bland historicalsense, but in a like, I believe that
there's something in this that I canget out of it, no matter what it is,
and that is easy enough we're, weconstantly find ourselves To be clever.

(04:02):
So, naturally, the calendar startswith something like Dark Side of the
Moon by Pink Floyd, so that we couldget a bunch of people on board with
this idea who are like, oh yeah, I'mgonna be listening to a bunch of stuff
that makes me feel cool every day.
And then, it's not too many weeks beforeyou hit, uh Oops, I did it again, or
something else that maybe otherwiseconfronts your idea of what sort of

(04:26):
music you're supposed to be listeningto to keep up the pretense of who you
think you are relative to all that music.
I know that we found a lot of joyeven just in that moment of hearing
from especially Some white guyswho were like, so you want me to
listen to Britney Spears today?
Like I do and I'm surprisedthat you're surprised

Kyle (04:49):
I will be doing it as well

Cliff (04:51):
Absolutely.
I had a great day.
Yeah.

Kyle (04:53):
I especially like, and have come to appreciate and reflecting
after a few months of this exercise,that you are no longer the same
person at the end of the day thatyou were at the beginning of the day.
You either are thinking about a record youalready know in the context of where you
are in life now, or And like just beingforced to listen to an album you like

(05:16):
is different than selecting it yourself,like different headspace entirely, or
you have been served something that,the tentacles of the algorithm wouldn't
get you to, it was just like totalhard left back of the vinyl bin that
you never got around to thumbing to.

(05:37):
And then you know, you know somethingdifferent or you've been somewhere in
the world or you've, you've traveledto a place in inner space that
you've never explored, you know, justlike all that excites me so much.
And as we get older, as the shows andrecords and miles and life experiences

(05:58):
accumulate, and it gets harder and harderto find the high, I guess, so to speak.
I'm more filled withgratitude than I've ever been.
That music can still do for mewhat it did when I was three years
old and my parents put on a recordin the corner of the living room.
I don't know of anything elsein the world that can do that.

Cliff (06:17):
We're gonna end up talking a lot about that idea how to apply it
And then how to get really good at it.
I think one thing that we are leaninginto, me and you, and we're trusting other
people who have told us that we help themin this way, and we're trusting ourselves
because we help each other in this way,but we're leaning into the idea that we

(06:39):
have some amount of talent about doingthis with pretty much any amount of music.

Kyle (06:45):
I don't know about any of that shit.
I just know.
I just know.
I feel compelled to do it.
I'm just going to keep doing it, whetherthere's anything to do with it or not.
It just is such a joy that there isto do with it and other people kind
of get excited to do the same things.

Cliff (07:03):
Yeah, 100%.
But every time we lean into that ideaand just share how we're thinking
about finding a way to experience anew bit of music, we hear from someone
else who says, honestly, somethingjust totally unexpected, either like
we get a message about, I'd neverthought to listen to this, or I can't
believe I've never listened to this,or I've never paid attention to it

(07:26):
that way or I'm going to draw a visualinterpretation of everything I'm
listening to every day because this ischanging my life in a really specific
way, like this idea that what we can doNot only in general, but specifically
in these podcast episodes is not onlytalk about albums the way we have
in the past, which we've heard frompeople are really fun to listen to.

(07:47):
And we teach something, uh, andwe learn something and we learn to
appreciate something different thanwe did before all that's still true.
And we want to carry all thatstuff forward and we want to
give interesting things and notjust sit for an hour and give.
Blank, dumb opinions about certain thingsand how we like certain genres and not,

(08:08):
but instead to go really specifically intonot only what about the music makes it
interesting, but specifically, as we'lltalk about in this episode and others.
Real legitimate listening exercises thatwe can do to extract things because it
turns out that me and you, Kyle, aredoing a lot of these things, whether
we're preparing for a podcast episodeor whether we're just trying to figure

(08:31):
out if that new Escuela Grind EP is asgood as we hoped it was going to be.
In either case, we know howto sit down with a thing.
And try to get some stuff out of it.
And if we aren't sure where to go,we can prompt ourselves with a few
things and try to figure out howto listen actively or passively.
And so that's going to be intertwinedinto more of what we talk about and more

(08:53):
of what we experience when it comes tothese records, because we can teach other
people how to see things that we don'tsee yet, because they can have their own
experience with it just by exercisingsome, honestly, just discipline.
Learning to listen to music and loveit as a discipline and learning to
get better at approaching it thatway and seeing what else kind of

(09:14):
unfolds in life when you do that.

Kyle (09:16):
You know, it hadn't occurred to me until just now, and you didn't
say it exactly this way, but like theidea that our opinions don't matter.
At all, what we think or don'tthink of the music as part
of our personal experience.
I think what has made this podcastspecial to me is we're just sort of laying
ourselves bare and growing as we go andhopefully giving people permission to.

(09:43):
We're inviting peopleto grow alongside us.
it's such a waste of time exerciseto say, This is good or this is
bad, or this record was better forthis artist than this other one.
You and I definitely have all thosefeelings and we air that stuff out
constantly in our texts, but I thinkwhat's valuable in the forum is just

(10:04):
like what What can music do for usand what's happening here with this
album or this song or this moment?
That is like other things that wehave experienced and grown from
or what is totally unique Andyou know, how is that sort of a
microcosm of the human experience?
Anyway, all that's very heady.

(10:25):
so thanks for bearing with us on that.
But I hope what you take away from thatis that we're excited to get back at it.
We were a little pent up, I think,from being away for so long.
So with the calendar, we are takingone album a month to sort of zoom in on
and talk at greater length because thecalendar is just sort of here it is.

(10:47):
Enjoy it.
Endorsement implicit.
but it's nice to dig in and unpackand we didn't get around to it
right at the top of the year.
But April, the starting of the spring,the arguable real start, real first month
of the year, is as good a time as any.
And this is a great one.
the late great Marvin Gaye.

Cliff (11:06):
In classic form for us, a record That is complex to approach
and enjoy, made by a human being.
It was complex to approach and enjoy.
At a time, that was complexto approach and enjoy.
And we can hold all ofthese things together.
And to your point, Not worry about whetherit's good capital G or bad capital B and

(11:33):
try to put it into a column one way orthe other because it's a really, it lacks
a lot of nuance and it steals a lot ofjoy to try to categorize things that way
or to judge them before you get there.
And so to that end, this is afantastic record to think about.
How we can not only let the musiccome to us and show us things and

(11:58):
give us appreciation for Musicality,and production, and music theory,
and instrumentation, and lyrics, andpeople moaning in the background.
Um,

Kyle (12:10):
So much, moaning, dude.

Cliff (12:12):
I learned so much about party records thanks to this album.
Um, but we can have all of that,and we can still have the backdrop
of understanding, as best we could,who Marvin Gaye was at this time.
Who these people are that he wrote.
Semi wrote this record about who he'ssinging to their ages his ages like

(12:38):
Relationships people involved like it'ssuch a web of people and things that
come together to create these Monolithicalbums that we look back on as singular
points in history And so it's a greatopportunity for us to step right back in
Pick a gnarly one apart and look at allthe good stuff that that's inside of it
While also acknowledging some of the,the rough stuff that's there as well.

Kyle (13:02):
this record is, everything that's great about music because it works.
Sort of both wavelengths, right?
You can put it on and no, no, likenever seen a picture of Marvin Gaye.
No, absolutely nothing about the man oranything we're going to talk about and
just be like, damn, this is something.
but context also deeply enriches whatyou're hearing and not just like you

(13:27):
said on the literal sonic production.
And playing level, but sort ofthe, the stories that are behind
it and help it pack a punch.
So I think like exercise numberone is if you've never heard it
before, stop the tape, stop the tapenow and go listen to the record.
Totally cold.
I would almost give anything to beable to have never heard it at all as a

(13:53):
fully formed presently listening adult.
And then come back and let's talkagain and choose our own adventure.

Cliff (13:59):
Yep.
That's always the first order ofbusiness if you pull up this podcast
and you haven't heard the thing we're

Kyle (14:04):
Start with them, not with us.
Don't let us be thefirst word on the thing.

Cliff (14:08):
Oh, man.
Yes, we really don't want toshape your first time experience
of music if we can help it.
We'd much rather give you a thing tothink about when you listen to it for
the second, fifth, tenth, and fiftiethtimes later on cause that's when the
magic really starts to happen, I think.

Kyle (14:26):
Normally when we record, I'm at like the 40th listen or so, and then it.
And then we say a bunch of things,and then I think about those things
when we go back to listen to it.
And I, since we have started doing thispodcast, have increasingly gotten this
feeling that I never really startedunderstanding or liking a record.

(14:47):
And we've talked about some ofmy favorite records ever until
we've recorded the episode.
Like I just, I, I love them so muchmore than I ever thought I could.
So record episode back to therecord as quickly as possible.

Cliff (15:02):
And without putting too much formality around all of
it, because we still want tokeep this really conversational
because that is how TuneDig works.
But, we do have a few kind of tentpoles that I think we've decided
to set up for future episodes.
And I think it's good to justgive a heads up that these are
kind of the places we'll be going.
First of all, we've talked aboutthis in past episodes, sort of.

(15:25):
casually.
But one sort of nearly religious maximthat we have here is if we are going to
sit in front of microphones and talk aboutmusic and then put it on the internet for
people to hear, one thing we want to avoidas best we can is just Raw conjecture.
So not just I think a thing is goodor bad, or I think a thing was good or

(15:49):
bad, but also trying really hard notto fill in gaps from stories about what
was going on for the artist at the time,or what was going on in the production,
or what was going on with the music.
It's really easy to hear a story.
And fill in those holes with like whatyou think about what that person was
doing or going through And getting sortof telling yourself a story about the

(16:09):
music And so we really want to try toavoid that as best we can not because
this is the hardcore history podcastbut because we would much rather you
have a Factually based idea of what washappening and if we don't know a detail
we don't know a detail That's a gap.

(16:29):
You can go figure it out when youlisten to the music, or it can just
be something that we don't know.
But we try really hard to just avoidsitting and spinning through things
we think so much about the record.
And so, in service of that, wewant to do two kind of big chunks.
Of context about a record first historyand context So history and context,

(16:52):
uh is never actually objective.
It has to be written down Ithas to be a story that you
read back to yourself, right?
So we sort of break reality immediately,but as much as we can trying to give
you Like factual contextual informationabout the record to help you understand
why, who, where, all that sort of thing.
Right.
Some of the interesting trivia andtidbits we've talked about over

(17:15):
the years for records will stillfit into that bucket for sure.
But then related to that and sortof separate from it, though, we also
want to make sure that we're touchingon what we find to be the artist's
intent around the particular album.
And so, again, that is.
Different than us trying to assumewhat intent is, that's more about how

(17:37):
can we go back and look at interviews?
How can we go back and read liner notes?
How can we speak to, ideallyprofessionals or authors or experts
on what was happening at a particulartime when an album was made?
and be inquisitive aboutthe artist's intent.
Knowing that it is an inherentlysubjective thing to begin with.

(18:00):
But, knowing that an artist hadan intention for a record can
help shape it in a particular way.
That's, you know, diametrically differentfrom just a fact about that record itself.
So, we want to give history and context.
We also want to try as best we canto represent artist's intent using
source material, for pretty muchall of that whenever possible.

(18:22):
And then lastly, something that I think weprobably allowed ourselves to be inspired
from our own, podcast offshoot, uh, aswe did Friday, heavy episodes, which
were really focused on heavy music andwere much shorter form in their episodes.
One thing that we did was we talkedmuch more about how to make cultural
impacts and how the music from, Punk,hardcore, drone, all sorts of different

(18:47):
genres created societal impact or energyto create further societal impact.
And so in that sense, we also want tomake sure that we're touching on how
music impacted the culture around us.
And that could be.
Something as straightforward as, youknow, music that ended up being inspired,

(19:07):
which we'll talk about today, right?
People who loved this recordand did something with it later
on as another form of music.
But also as we'll talk about fromthis record, I mean, the artwork
itself has its own story that we couldtalk about for 30 minutes minimum.
About not only where it came from,but what it may have inspired

(19:27):
after that and who was involved.
and so, thinking deeply again about whatwas going on at the time an album was
made, what's the history and context,what did the artist mean as best we
can understand now from when they wereactually trying to make this piece of art.
With, you know, usually a series ofcollaborators and then lastly, what do
we see as the impact from this musicso that we can not only interpret

(19:52):
and enjoy it ourselves personally,but we can get a better idea of what
music ends up meaning to people who.
For the most part are generally justdifferent from us And in this particular
case, I don't just mean people whoare not white dudes Although white
dudes have a unique opportunity toradically experience different cultures

(20:13):
if they'll open their minds to it ona pretty regular basis through music

Kyle (20:18):
And if you've never seen a picture of us or can't make inferences from the
voices you're listening to, we white.
We've been Affleck,
anyway, that was longer windup than Ithink we've ever done on an episode.
Let's talk about, I want youreleased, right around the spring
equinox, mid March of 1976.

Cliff (20:39):
Absolutely.
The record we're talking about today,I feel the best quick summary to start
with is this one sentence overview.
Quote, It's difficult.
It's horny.
And it's definitely not for everyone.
That's fantastic.
You could probably apply that to almostany record that we cover on this podcast.

(21:00):
I like it a lot.
Those are three things thatalign with my personal values.
So
I want

Kyle (21:06):
The, best, I'm constantly in search of the best title for a memoir,
opening line of a memoir, and thatis the new global high water mark.

Cliff (21:15):
difficult, horny, and definitely not for everybody.
This is a very good t shirt.
I'm going to be advertisedabout on Instagram soon.
I'm sure.
So, I Want You wasreleased March 16th, 1976.
And just to be really clear and goahead and put it in the context that we
need from an artist perspective, right?
This is the follow up to Let's GetIt On, which came out in 1973, which

(21:39):
was the follow up to What's Going On.

Kyle (21:42):
With the soundtrack to Troubleman and a Diana Ross collab album and
some other stuff sprinkled in between.

Cliff (21:50):
Yeah.

Kyle (21:51):
I said earlier that the album works beautifully with or without
context, but there are two pieces ofcontext that I think are critical.
For fully appreciatingwhat's happening here.
Just like the first sortof wow moments for me.
it is his 14th studio album releasedon, on Tamla, the subsidiary of Motown.

(22:13):
14 albums, 1976, 20 or soyears in the biz at this point.
this man has lived a whole ass Dewey Cox.
Walk hard life by this point, there'sa grown up in DC with, to say he had a
difficult relationship with his fatheris a wild understatement, especially

(22:37):
if you know how the Marvin Gaye storyends, he's a central fixture in the
Motown scene, the rise of Motown, whichwould have been 10 nigh on 15 years.
Past at this point, he had a duets erawith Tammy Terrell, who has died six

(22:57):
years prior to this record coming out.
he has a massive, massive hit inheard it through the grapevine, a
song he covered, and was played overthe opening credits of the big chill.
So like central cultural figure, you couldstop 99 percent of artists careers there.
And that's like.
That's a full documentary, right?

(23:19):
But then he makes a big politicalstatement in 71 with what's going on,
which could have easily been the recordthat we talked about to dip into Marvin
Gaye and is as phenomenal an entry pointfor an artist as humanly imaginable.
And, on the short list oflike, if you bury a time
capsule of 10 American records.
probably one of themalongside Kind of Blue.

(23:41):
he did the Trouble Man soundtrack,as Barry Gordy is trying to tow into
Hollywood and be a big producer,and the Trouble Man soundtrack is
as soul music gets for my money.
then he does, or Trouble Manwas after Let's Get It On, but
he does Let's Get It On in 73.
Crazy record.
And so the what's going on, let'sget it on is like two massive,

(24:04):
massive records back to back.
And so all of that givesyou a long simmering stew
of influences that leads to.
Sounds and subject matterthat you get mashing together
here into really like a blend.
I think one of the first thingsyou'll notice when you put on the
record is it doesn't feel likeit has a start and end point.
It's almost kind of hard to know, whereyou are in the suite and like you, you

(24:27):
really need to think of it as a suite.
It's 11 tracks, it's eight uniquepieces, but it's like, It's a little
bit sleeps dope smokery because it's,it fades in and out of parts and you
get the, I want you motif two more timesinstrumental in addition, you know, and
you get after the dance instrumentaland then it's the closing track.
It's like, it's a mess if you'retrying to focus and be like, it's this

(24:49):
song and then this song, it is hard.
so there's a lot going on there.
You know, just think about alsoin his, like extrapolate from his
life, zoom out in 1964 alone, youhave MLK winning the Nobel prize.
The Civil Rights Act, the murdersin Mississippi in the summer of 64
that we talked about on the Sun Houseepisode, the Beatles doing Ed Sullivan

(25:12):
and arriving in America, Beatlemania,the Supremes start taking off LBJ
bombing Vietnam and the Vietnam war.
You have the rise of the Jacksonfive and Michael Jackson,
who was hugely influenced by.
Marvin Gaye.
You have the fall of Motown bythe time this record comes around.
So like he's sort ofoutrun that whole thing.
You have Woodstock and then you haveMarvin took a significant amount of time

(25:39):
off and like went totally recluse andgrew a beard and started hanging out with
two all pro dudes from the Detroit Lionsand stopped smoking and partying and
almost tried out for the Detroit Lions.
so I just named at least a dozenthings and any one of those
things is like, Oh my God, what?
And they all happened in10 or 15 years of his life.

(26:02):
So it's it's astounding to me It'sa minor miracle thinking about the
million butterfly effect things thathad to happen just for this one magical
little document to exist And I thinkthe richness of feel that comes to the
surface, because this album is likepure 190 proof feel, doesn't happen
without every single one of those things.

(26:24):
And of course that makes me reflecton my own life everything that
happened is because of all the goodand bad stuff that happened before it.
The difference between I Want Youand My Life is I Want You also
wouldn't have happened, and thisis by Marvin's own admission,
without a ton, a literal he doesn't.
He cannot calculate amount of cocaine.
so that, that's all thefirst factor, right?

(26:45):
Is the, the millions of factors leadingup very, very deep in his career.
Like he's a ostensibly anold head by this point.
but a, a huge cultural figure.
The other thing is, I like, I can't helpbut think of the Teddy Perkins, great
things come from great pain, and youcan draw the line from Michael Jackson.

(27:06):
Inspiring that episode right on back toMarvin, there are some deep psychological
tensions that he never managed to resolvein his life, that I was really struck
reading, uh, divided soul by DavidRitz and, you know, there's, there's
some problems with that as a documentof his life as there always is with
a biography, but, he had direct andintimate access and there are a lot of

(27:29):
direct quotes from Marvin in that book.
So I, I think it's worth a read ifyou want to dive deep after this.
Yeah.
I haven't read, um, butit's Michael Eric Dyson.
So I would sort ofrecommend it on its face.
A book called Mercy Me, artloves and demons of Marvin Gaye.
so like, I don't want us to play toomuch into the tortured artist thing,
but if there was an archetype ofit in the American popular cultural

(27:53):
memory, Marvin was it to a T.
And then Janice, the.
Then mistress, eventually wife, later exwife, who this record was sort of pointed
at also wrote a book many, many yearslater called after the dance, which as you
know, is one of the song titles on this.

(28:14):
So like there's, TLDR, there'slike a, it doesn't seem like a lot
when you're first listening to it.
It's subtlety is very deceptive,but there's like 16 tons of stuff.
undergirding the sort ofeffervescence of this record,

Cliff (28:31):
Yep, Janice Hunter, that you mentioned there at the end,
who wrote After the Dance she willbe a topic today because she was
the topic very much of this album.
But, point taken and agreed, right?
We don't want to, we don't want to loveon the tortured artist idea too much,

(28:52):
but It's also a good example of just whatwe were talking about earlier, right?
Uh, what we can do in this episode andthinking about this album is instead of
judging that concept of, does someonewho had a truly ruinous childhood do
they, become good or bad dependingon what they do within their singular

(29:15):
lifetime based on whether they're ableto overcome those struggles or not
pass that pain on to other people.
We can just go ahead and sayhe, he did, he did hurt other
people, throughout his life.
He also was hurt himself.
That past that you talkedabout is, is truly awful.
And no one deserves whathe experienced either.

(29:36):
So instead of us trying to encapsulatewhether that means that a thing or a
person or art is good or bad in somespecific dichotomous way, instead
we can just acknowledge all of that.
And like you said, understand that allof that went into this piece of art
that now we can experience much later.
It was a different purview, differentpoint of view but we can have an

(30:01):
understanding of what went intoit, but we can look at it with the
eyes that we have today and stillpull something interesting out.
and so to that end as well, at the time,you mentioned all of the things that were
kind of going on in the lead up to thisrecord, that's not only a lot, but also
focusing in on just kind of like the timeright before this record began to exist as

(30:24):
this record that belongs to Marvin Gaye.
This itself.
I want you has basically a long pastof having existed in various forms
and got the existence of some of thesesongs are in fact what got Marvin Gaye
interested in creating another recordafter let's get it on to begin with.

Kyle (30:46):
which he was notorious.
It was notoriously hardto get him to do that.
And Barry Gordy struggledto like innovate new ways to
trick him back into the studio.

Cliff (30:56):
right.
And there's, there's so much to coveras well that we won't have time to talk
about today that sort of illuminates.
What that must have felt like atthe time, because there's, there are
plenty of stories about sort of hisrelationship to Motown especially
the, you know, if you've kind of

Kyle (31:14):
was personal

Cliff (31:15):
yeah, and if you've studied or learned about Motown very much at all,
like one thing you'll start to walkaway with eventually is they were.
Perfectionists as a label and as suchoften applied a high level of scrutiny
to the type of subject matter, musicquality, anything that would come
out of what Motown was producing

Kyle (31:37):
that they had a charm school.
Like, I think that always putsit into perspective for me.
They like sent their artist tofinishing school, essentially.

Cliff (31:45):
Yep.
And so prior to this point,Marvin Gaye and Motown, we'll just
refer to the entity of Motown,right, kind of in one thing, but
there had already been a relationshipthere where not only had there been
some relationship artistic tension withwanting Marvin to do certain things that

(32:07):
aligned with what Motown was puttingout prior to his own records, but then
also remember that, what's going onwas effectively a thing that Marvin
Gaye won against Motown, so to speak.
Like, yes, they all putit out together, but, Yes.
In retrospect, everyone is really happy.
That record exists more or less,but that doesn't mean like we talk

(32:28):
about with a ton of records, itdoesn't mean it was easy to convince
anybody to put it out at the time.
So there was already like a lot of
dense

Kyle (32:34):
nobody was psyched about the iPhone until it was the
biggest thing in the world.

Cliff (32:39):
Yeah, exactly.

Kyle (32:40):
then everybody's like, wow, what a great idea we all had.

Cliff (32:43):
Yeah.
How obvious I could have thought to justhave a phone that was only a screen, bro.
Of course I could havethought of that myself.
all those things were true and wereleading up into this moment before I
Want You existed, where Marvin was ona quote unquote religious sabbatical,
and, his, Place in life at this time isnot one where I think we should take any

(33:07):
specific phrasing He said at any pointas direct gospel of what he actually
thought there is plenty of Trauma anddrug use and all sorts of things here
so that we you know Have a harder timeunderstanding exactly what was happening
then But, uh, what we hear from othersis that he had basically sworn off
ever doing a commercial record again.

(33:28):
and what changed his mind was BarryGordy, actually, who was co writing
some hits with, like, Michael Jackson.
And he was Diana Ross's brother.
There's the story of Marvin Gayeinvolves a lot of people related
to people in Motown Records.
And so this was

Kyle (33:48):
Also important to note, and, you know, I'm sorry to everyone that I should
know this, and I don't know the exactcontours, but, Diana Ross, at least
a muse to Barry Gordy, perhaps a loveinterest, but Diana Ross very much like
the center of Barry Gordy's universe,just professionally and as a human being.

Cliff (34:08):
Yeah, so there was this song, I Want You, that already existed.
I think this is a cool way to talk aboutthis record and contextualize it, right?
It's, very few records have thetotal linear, we started from
nothing, we wrote everything togetheronly as this group of artists,
and then, You know, perfectedand recorded it exactly as is.

(34:29):
It's rarely like that.
And I think folks know that, butespecially around this time and with
records like this, it's cool to understandthat this was more of a collection of
things that Marvin Gaye put himself into.
That might be too apt a descriptionbased on the subject matter.
So let me say instead, thisis something that Marvin

Kyle (34:49):
Made his own.

Cliff (34:50):
There you go.
Thank you.
and so I want you already existed asa demo and got Marvin really excited.
I fell in love with the song alone.
And then it turned out that.
As Marvin learned more about what couldbe done and started hearing more about
other people's music that had beenwritten or other people he was inspired

(35:14):
by, he started to get an idea for atotal record that he could put together
and eventually got pretty excited about.
Um,

Kyle (35:23):
I liked the anecdote where they were working on, I think on I want
you, but the very first demo and then.
Leon Ware, who we'll, we'll talk aboutplayed some other stuff, like including
some duets he'd been working on for MinnieRipperton was playing some of his own
stuff through the wall at the studio.

(35:43):
And Marvin came in andwas like, I love all this.
I want all of it.
If you give it to me, likeI'll do the whole album.
and this, this was like way before theera of the You know, future and Metro
Boomin, where it's like the music andthe voice sort of massive super group
that, but you can see like some sort ofnascent strains of where that kind of

(36:03):
thing would, would come to be, but it waslike, not the mode of the time at all.
Uh, very unusual for like sort of a superproducer, writer, single person and a
super performer, musician, single personto, to join forces and, You know, with
your powers combined, dot, dot, dot.

Cliff (36:22):
yeah.
And Leon Ware is a critical part ofnot only understanding what's going
on on this record, But also in kind ofunderstanding more about what this record
did afterwards and especially in the,in the very short time frame after that
because Leon Ware also put out a recordcalled Musical Massage, uh, I believe

(36:48):
not long after this, and because of itsassociation with the I want you and Marvin
Gaye in general and all this, right?
It sort of led to a swelling ofappreciation for that type of music,
which was still highly sensual, right?
Led to genres like quiet storm.

(37:10):
Uh, like I feel like referring to anyof this stuff as R and B is pretty.
Uh, it, it, it,
yeah, it doesn't I, I understand whywe start there and it's important.
This influenced R& B for sure,
but it's, uh,

Kyle (37:25):
It's really more of a, like, you, you can't convey it in audio, like,
only with us looking at each other.
It's someone where you, makeeye contact and you're like,
you know, you know what it is.
You, you know.
Like I do every time, I go to talk aboutvoodoo, ever since we did that episode.
Well, what's going on?
Why do you like that record so much?

(37:45):
You know, bro.

Cliff (37:46):
Yep, in fact, we can just, we'll shortcut to a moment I'm
sure we'll mention later on.
But basically if Voodoo, if D'Angelomakes your body react in any way,
when you were listening to thatrecord, make sure you listen to this
one, there, there is a spiritualsuccession and relationship here that.

(38:08):
It's speaking of reductive, it'd bepretty reductive to just say like
this created Neo Soul down the road.
That's definitely not the case, but thisit's hard to make a case that Voodoo would
have existed in its current form had thisrecord not existed beforehand in its form.

Kyle (38:25):
One of the things that stuck with me the most about Voodoo when we were
getting to know it is you know, themethod wasn't like yes, we have all these
influences let's just go write songs.
They Quite literallyconjured their way to it.
They would just play jam and jamand jam and, and, you know, woodshop

(38:45):
these songs by Prince and Sly andall these people that they really
liked, until it turned into jams andstarted mutating and became the songs.
And it, you know, it just came upout of the smoke and there's a, even
though Leon brought these songs.
Mostly pretty fully formed to Marvin.

(39:06):
Leon himself said, you know, the,the songs weren't the songs until
Marvin put his magic on them.
So there's a similar element of likeorganic conjuring, bringing it to a third
place, a new level that it, it wouldn'thave reached before, like a cool alchemy.
That was just sort of like going, goingunconscious, getting into flow state,

(39:29):
and just go in and go in and go in andwhat you have is, is a beautiful piece
without beginning or end that you can,you can live in for a really, really
long time without getting tired of it.

Cliff (39:38):
A quick note on that, maybe before we go into some ways to listen
and experience this record, especiallyon your first time through, what
you just brought up is a key thingabout this record to sort of see
and understand it in its context.
yes, it was primarily.
Songs already written in one form oranother, but everyone who has spoken

(40:03):
about this record, either at the timeor in the time since, who was involved
in it, whether it was the people wholiterally wrote those songs or lyrics or
not, there's a number of anecdotes, butat the end of the day, what everyone had
to say in, in very close relationshipwas, um, was, was It wasn't really
anything until Marvin did what hedid to it, and then it was fully his.

(40:28):
this whole body of work reallycame alive when he took it on.
I might overuse the word fascinating,but it's really fascinating here
from an intellectual perspective, Ithink, on this record to think about
how someone could perceive the work.
Of someone else and so quickly apply itto a very emotional and sort of like hot

(40:50):
in the moment experience that someonewas having because in this sense, we
don't have to go too far into thetabloid direction of this stuff to just
give the quick context of it, right?
Like, I want you is a work of.
Erotic tribute, okay, to a very specificwoman Janice Hunter, who he would shortly

(41:15):
marry afterwards, but we can quickly givea tour of what was actually happening
at this time, because that's true.
He was very much in love withJanice Hunter, who, we should
be clear, was significantlyyounger than him although, uh, is
bet

Kyle (41:31):
17?

Cliff (41:32):
So This is the hair I'm going to split really quick.
As far as I know, yes,they met when she was 17.
What I didn't find was any hint thatthere was concerning documented behavior
prior to the age of consent from adults.
I try real hard to just like, if we haveConsenting adults in a situation, and I

(41:55):
don't have any further insight into it.
I'm just gonna kinda say, that's alittle interesting and leave it there.

Kyle (42:01):
I will take the first train to back in my business ville.

Cliff (42:04):
But, part of the reason why that matters at all because, you
know, when Leonardo DiCaprio does it,it's gross, and that is also valid.
What's really fascinating was, hisprior relationship, so to speak,
Marvin Gaye's, that he was not
yet done with at this

Kyle (42:20):
prayer.
Yeah, yeah.

Cliff (42:21):
The, the person he was in a relationship with then, whose divorce
he had not finalized, was 17 years hissenior, So he was never in a very age
equal relationship across these two.
Um, and so we, yeah, so we can kind ofhold that up, uh, without, Unnecessary

(42:43):
judgment towards what may be, appropriateor inappropriate between consenting
adults but what we can say and whatis important to see here is like, this
was, he was passionate about someonehe cared about who he had a very
passionate relationship with afterwards,their love was important to him.
He's growing, and thesesongs are about her.

(43:05):
They're to her, they're abouther, uh, and he feels really
comfortable expressing, well, a lot,
uh,

Kyle (43:12):
I just say though

Cliff (43:13):
know.

Kyle (43:14):
the record was put out by the brother of the first wife

Cliff (43:21):
Mm hmm.

Kyle (43:21):
and I just can't I can't imagine the dynamic.
of singing and presenting these songsand my excitement about them to, still
legally, my brother in law and my bossand check signer just that's complicated.
That's, that's complicated.

Cliff (43:45):
Too rich for my blood.

Kyle (43:46):
And that's, I remember there's a long form interview with Donald Glover
when Atlanta first came out where theyshowed them the first season and they
were like, what's up with urn and van?
Are they, when are theygoing to get married?
When in the arc is that?

(44:06):
And he was like, no, no, no.
Like culturally that it's just like youraunt has a friend that comes around.
and he's like, I'm gonna bein trouble every once in a
while, but he's not your uncle.
But like, yeah, and it's just like,you're just not worried about it.
And the people, the wellmeaning executives of FX
really, what, what do you mean?
What, I don't, I don't understand.

(44:28):
You know, to your earlier pointin the non judgment thing, it's
just like, there's so much.
To unpack around like norms and justlike he was a complicated dude and um
none of the setup of this is the lifethat I would have personally chosen
or gotten any enjoyment out of but Itwas his deal for better and for worse

(44:51):
simultaneously and it gave us this thing

Cliff (44:54):
Yep.

Kyle (44:55):
This undeniable, this completely undeniable thing

Cliff (44:59):
Yep.
And if the salacious detailstitillate you, there's a whole ass
book for you to go read, so go do it.

Kyle (45:06):
There are like one by her and then large chunks of other ones,

Cliff (45:13):
Yeah.
So.

Kyle (45:14):
but definitely not the focal point.
So just like a, huh, you know, likeabsorb that in, into your pores and
don't ever think or talk about it again,just bury it, bury it way down deep.

Cliff (45:27):
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
And that's, that is part of, I think,what we have practiced ourselves.
And.
Yeah.
Can help other people think throughyeah, sometimes like all right.
I don't listen to Chris Brownfuck that guy Okay, straight up
period end of sentence.
Okay.

Kyle (45:47):
I'm gonna send this clip to all of my friends who I love and respect,
who still inexplicably enjoy his music.
Just

Cliff (45:56):
that's not a hard choice for me But that's the one that I want to make
and if somebody else Wants to reconcilethe fact that they really like a Chris
Brown tune with the fact that ChrisBrown is this person Okay, if that's
what you want to do, that's fine.
We can both Come to things nonjudgmentally and approach them
and get things back out of them.
And so as best we can here's like,

Kyle (46:19):
can't listen to Gary Glitter anymore, but sometimes at sporting
events I do miss the Hey song.
Yeah.

Cliff (46:25):
so like a lot of things We just like we wanted to pick this
little bit up because it's reallyimportant for understanding what
this record is about It's not justlike a generically sexy record.
It's not just

Kyle (46:36):
It's very specifically

Cliff (46:38):
It is it is horny in a very particular direction like
and they were

Kyle (46:43):
you talk about artistic intent, that was the artistic intent.

Cliff (46:46):
Yup.
There are lyrics in herelike, I wanna give you head.
It's not confusing, okay?
Like, we W W

Kyle (46:53):
Cliff, do you want to tell them what image you have selected to be
at the top of the episode outline?

Cliff (46:59):
W W W W We had a big sign on the mixing board in the studio.
It was kind of subliminal.
It said, in all capital letters, HEAD.
We were in the studio messing around

Kyle (47:14):
that's 72 point ass punt.

Cliff (47:17):
right?
Right in front of his face.
So like, there was a re Like, playfulis probably an overly simplified way of
thinking about it, but there was likea real, like, playful, improvisational
vibe to, basically, How do you want

Kyle (47:33):
Comfortable, vulnerable.
Yeah.
just like, self actualized in the joyof connecting to a person in this way.

Cliff (47:42):
Yeah.
So, that's why

Kyle (47:45):
that long interview with Leon Ware The Jason King, who's now the Dean of the
Music School at USC, did a great writer.
Leon Ware was like we are twoguys that wanted to make a record
that, like, Your kids wouldn'tbe embarrassed that you made.
It was natural, not nasty.
You know, like, it's justa fact of life type stuff.

(48:07):
Thing to be enjoyed and appreciated.

Cliff (48:10):
yeah.
Leon Ware clearly feels to this day,whether other people feel the same way
about what he did or not, that yeah,like what he made was like, pure,
he'd be like, he literally, like yousaid, I talked about being able to
show it to kids, like his kids, uh,
like,

Kyle (48:28):
he say something like, um, people tell me all the time how many
babies have been made to this record?
And that's like the metric of successof this thing for me, which is awesome.

Cliff (48:38):
so that's one way to look at some of the context that makes, This record
especially interesting and helpfulto digest outside of just, you know,
subjectively taking in the music itselfwithout knowing anything else about it.
Um, so like with many records, includingall the ones we talk about in this
podcast there's always something to beadded by kind of understanding as much

(49:02):
as you can about what was happening,uh, and what went into what got created.

Kyle (49:07):
Yeah.
I think our goal is let contextadd value, not subject the second
it starts to subtract value.
And the thing is still worth listeningto, like bail out of the context
stuff and just strictly vibes.

Cliff (49:21):
Yep.
If it starts to feel like trivia,walk out of the wing spot.

Kyle (49:24):
Get it to go, get it to go play though.

Cliff (49:26):
Oh, yeah.
So one of the, one of the ways thatwe've talked now about then doing this
idea of kind of historical contextand artist intent and impact is we've
pulled out some specific exercisesthat we can talk through and recommend
for you to listen to this album Under.

(49:49):
So basically some new ways thatyou can approach the music.
I mean, naturally, however, however itis you wanna listen to music is fine.
100% fantastic

Kyle (49:58):
know how to do that for you better than anyone.

Cliff (50:01):
That's right.
But when you are looking for more ortrying to get something different out
of it, we've found some particular kindof prompts that help us do exactly that.
So one of the main ones that we'vedone here, especially for this first
section, thinking about As much as wecan objective context of the record.
Well, we've talked about writing down,how do we take it in fresh, but tune

(50:26):
in for key moments on the record.
So what we mean here is like, whenyou're listening to an album for the
first time, especially one that's,you know, is complex or important
if you're thinking a lot about it.
You're sort of filledwith a lot of information.
You're trying to processthat record sort of by force.
There are things that you feel likeyou need to be able to understand.

(50:48):
So.
Instead, what we would encourageyou to do, uh, is try to take it in
fresh, but be able to tune into thingsthat surprise you and sort of allow
yourself to write those things down.
Sort of similar to meditationin the sense of when a thought
arises, well, there's a thought.
And then let it go.
Sort of in that same sense, wewent through and said, okay, what

(51:11):
sort of surprised you on yourfirst listens to this record?
What sort of stood out?
What notes did you take afterwardswhen you were trying to remember
uh, what, what caught your ear whenyou were going through it first?
So for me one of the main things thatstuck out that I thought was funny,
the very first 30 seconds of therecord reminds me that the foundations

(51:35):
of some of my, musical connectionsand webs, uh, many of those webs are.
For better or worse centered aroundthe Mars Volta, because the very first
30 seconds of this record reminds meof the way that, especially on Francis
the Mute but on several other records,I mean, they have real long songs and

(51:59):
very episodic type of music, but theywill do kind of like these interlude
y things in between them, and they areExtremely related vibe wise to what is
going on on this record the percussionThe way that the guitar is played Uh, and
then all of that just reminded me onceagain, which usually happens Hey, buddy,

(52:23):
you're just looking for eddie hazel.
Hey that line you're tracing.
That's just a line back to eddie hazel

Kyle (52:30):
And Jimmy.

Cliff (52:31):
yeah for sure
Uh,

Kyle (52:33):
Eddie.
Yeah.

Cliff (52:33):
but those really stuck out to me specifically because of the kind of
Cadence and organization of the recordlike you pointed out the way that
they've got these They've got sectionsin the record and then sort of like
intro jams into them And it just feelslike you're moving through chapters and
all the kind of mood music in betweenthe chapters is so funk disco Samba,

(53:00):
everything sort of all around that vibe.
I could just as easily imagine,a seventies Santana and band
filling in, in between thesongs before they pick back up.

Kyle (53:11):
Totally.
I'm never in a million years.
I've been listening tothis record a long time.
Never in a million years would havemade um and I want you Francis the
mute comparison and now I'll neverunsee it in the best way but you
know, we've gotten to see them.
a couple of times since they've gottenback together and I think there's

(53:33):
a lot of Leon Ware, Marvin Gaye,sophistication, and restraint in the
older, wiser Mars Volta, the, thenew members currently in the band.
I, I think they would inviteand appreciate that comparison

Cliff (53:50):
Yes.

Kyle (53:50):
more.
They're still more scarythan sexy, but, uh,

Cliff (53:54):
about to say, I really don't want to see them either.
Either one of the people in the Marzavultatry to turn their sexy on too hard.
but yes, agreed.

Kyle (54:02):
It's um,
they are both simply a mirror invitingyou to, release your inhibitions
and feel the rain on your skin.

Cliff (54:10):
but yeah, I'd say beyond those things as well.
And then I'd love to hearwhat stood out for you.
A couple of things that I thinkare worth paying attention to.
First of all, on after the dance, theinstrumental version of that track.

Kyle (54:23):
Taylor's version.
Mm hmm.

Cliff (54:29):
are fun things happening there that my brain kept forgetting
to remember because that's a lot oftimes how I experience listening to
music that I feel like is important.
I'm trying to pay too muchattention to you, right?
I kept forgetting that what I washearing in that song Was a synth, because
it gets played a lot like a guitar.
And
then, but then my brain would do the wholeI'd go all the way around the circle.

(54:51):
Because it'd be like,who's playing guitar?
That's a cool way to play guitar.
That's not a guitar.
That's a synth.
Oh, that's cool that he's doing aninstrumental track on this solo album.
Oh wait, who's playing synth?
Marvin Gaye.
Oh!
Oh shit!

Kyle (55:06):
He's still saying it, my boy.

Cliff (55:08):
got it.

Kyle (55:09):
I did also have the thought, Cliff is somewhere on a ski lift right now
making mouth noises to capture the synth.
That's such a you thing todo, like, Bow, bow, bow.
Like, I hope to god, I just hope he'son a lift by himself and nobody else
is like, My god, who is this man?

Cliff (55:28):
And I'd almost feel a little hesitant to let someone
know I was listening to thisrecord by myself all day, I think

Kyle (55:35):
Yep, yep,

Cliff (55:36):
Hey, were you.
listening to you?
I want you on repeat

Kyle (55:40):
I have a wife!
I'm a wife guy!
No, no, no!
It's not what it loo I was in the pool!
Synth.

Cliff (55:49):
yeah, so what stood out to you

Kyle (55:51):
You know, once I read the David Ritz book, it was hard not to see everything
about Marvin Gaye in dichotomies.
and I know our brains are primed tosee, Opposites and dichotomies and
pairs and stuff everywhere, but,sort of a, the, the low end, ran so
the flourishes could fly type thing.

(56:13):
The first thing, surprisingly, thatI noticed once I noticed that I like
wasn't noticing vibing really hard for.
A stupendously long time, I was like,Oh, I should probably actually focus.
If we're going to talk about this,it was like such a delightful thing,
you know, like being on a lazyriver and being like, Oh, I'm drunk.
I should get out.

(56:33):
was sort of my first sensation.
And once I pushed past that into anylevel of awareness, the first thing
was actually the rhythm section, whichis like not immediate in the mix.
It doesn't really need to announceitself, which is not a Mars Volta thing.
It was kind of motoric, like I waslike, Oh shit, this is kind of like

(56:55):
a can record almost a little bit likethey're locked into a groove and it's
so tasteful and gentlemanly, there's nota single hit or vibration or anything
more than is absolutely necessary.
Nothing is delivered too hard orovertly because like if you overdid

(57:15):
anything with the lyrical content.
It would be kitsch.
It'd be gross.
So the restraint, the clear powerand prowess of like fills and things
like, it's just so, so locked in.
And there's so much to appreciate justfrom a rhythm section perspective.
And to your point it's funk.

(57:37):
It's just, it's gentlemen's funk.
But then it's full, therecord is full of flourishes.
it's an embarrassment of riches.
I love records that surfacenew layers of things.
As you get familiar deep in the mix,you know, weird in a headphone channel
or whatever, the mix is so subtle,like the delivery of the record itself.

(57:57):
And, it's very much like.
discovering new things aboutthe person that you love and are
choosing to be with in that way.
So there's like a beautiful mirror there.
you talked about guitar like guitar andhorn flourishes are way way deep in this
so like in after the dance Parenthesesvocal the last song in the record Uh,

(58:18):
there's great guitar and horn flourishesin the right stereo channel Um, there's
sort of a, you know, if you are a jamband person, which we are not there's
that middle section of songs, three,three songs sort of between interludes.
One of them is all the way around andjust after the minute mark in there,

(58:39):
there's little high hat barks, thelittle and just the drum pattern.
If you want to talk about killerdrum stuff all the way around is
the drum song for me on the record.
Come Live With Me Angel is one of myfavorite songs of all time and I came
across it because it was sampled byG Unit and we've talked before about
how sampling is my gateway drug.

(59:01):
Yeah, points for the G Unit reference.
In the bridge, there'sI think a Fender Rhodes.
It's like almost clavinet y.
It's some kind of keyboard.
between three and threeand a half minutes.
That really adds flourish and meet.
there's flute, I think in this record,there's no flute in the credits,

(59:21):
but I definitely hear like verysultry, low register jazz flute.
Very like very tasteful.
You know, we've shared that Tom Waits,a gentleman is someone who can play
the accordion, but doesn't that like,there's, I love Bobby Humphrey, but
there's no, like, this is jazz flute.
and then, you know, I know we're goingto talk about vocals and like vocals are
really the star of the show, I think.

(59:43):
but there's also talking, there'svery like predecessor to hip hop,
like talking my shit talking.
So at the beginning of feel all mylove, which is probably like the
most erotic song on the record.
He says, Hey, you got another J.
And if you blink you missit, but it's just like, oh
man, that that's some G shit.

(01:00:04):
So it's just like, it's, it's cool.
You listen to it a couple of times hereand you're like, man, this record is cool.
And I think it's there.
There's a really tight basewith a really clear flavor.
And then it's got little ingredients,little accents all over it.
And every time you listen,there's a new delight.
It's so flavorful.
So those are all the sort of literalthings, but, I guess my next question for

(01:00:31):
you is like, how do you listen to the,like, where is this best appreciated?
We've talked about, you know,road, road records, time and place
records, headphone records, whatever.
Like, where does this sit for you?
in a cliff day.

Cliff (01:00:45):
Yeah, this one's fun because It we usually have fun creatively slotting
Answers into this question for both of us.

Kyle (01:00:54):
We should have made this episode a drinking game.

Cliff (01:00:56):
This one in particular calling it like a difficult listen
isn't really gonna do the trick.
One thing I took note of was thatI found active listening of this
record to be tough sometimes.
Because I don't really think, that'swhat I'm supposed to be doing most
of the time that this record is on.

(01:01:19):
I don't think it was really made for that.
Um,

Kyle (01:01:22):
a bit like looking at a naked person in the light.
Not that you're not supposedto do that, but it's just like,
it's like, whoa, there, whoa.
There it is.
That's what that is.
Yeah.

Cliff (01:01:32):
Which can be fine for a moment, but if you're just
standing there for several minutes,

Kyle (01:01:36):
Okay.
Now it's getting weird.
I'm going to, I'm going to put a robe on.
Yeah.

Cliff (01:01:40):
I mean to that end.
Look, we're all adults here.
The, uh,

Kyle (01:01:45):
you're not an adult, please stop listening at this time.

Cliff (01:01:48):
I mean, I don't even think I'm going to tell you anything wrong,
but like, uh, the, funny implicationof what you could be doing while
you listening, while you listento this record is not a bad call.
Pretty good vibes,
man.

Kyle (01:02:01):
most obvious answer is not the worst one.

Cliff (01:02:04):
Yeah.

Kyle (01:02:05):
Well, well

Cliff (01:02:06):
which, you know, this will, this has not been, is not, it will not be
a podcast of things we recommend tohave sex to, but not a bad choice here.

Kyle (01:02:15):
for the sake of the listeners, Again, we've been friends almost a
quarter century, and that is not afrequent topic of discussion in our
friendship, so it's certainly notgoing to be central subject matter

Cliff (01:02:30):
your point about vocals though.
Yeah, like so Kind of swinging theninto, what, what really happened
on this record, especially whileit was being written, isn't really
a phase of this record, right?
It was sort of like rewritten,re interpolated for the
version that we know now.

(01:02:50):
so one big thing that was happeningwith a lot of intention that seems
fairly obvious, but especially whenyou start shifting into things to
really focus on or draw out aboutthis record you mentioned the vocals.
Okay.
Uh, non Gaye is a.
Fantastic vocalist, crossedthe board, period, endlessly

(01:03:12):
talented, very, very good, hadalready proven himself quite well,
uh,

Kyle (01:03:18):
and an
inimitable,
he's got that Sinatra thing where evenif you try to sound like Marvin Gaye,
you can't, you can sound great, youcan't sound like Marvin Gaye, you know,
you know, when he opens hismouth, it's Marvin Gaye,

Cliff (01:03:32):
yeah, and he had that ability to, to seemingly effortlessly switch between,
nearly forceful, high pitched singing,but then could switch into that like,

Kyle (01:03:46):
but with melody,

Cliff (01:03:47):
Yeah,
I
can't even begin to make my voiceas deep and smooth as he could do on
demand, switching between those two,and that alone, is an incredible feat.
But he just had immense controlover how he used his vocals.
Um, he like famously was able to recordvocals laying down, which is like not

(01:04:10):
a thing that a normal person can do tobegin with, much less record, you know,
some of your favorite, most well known.
Songs with vocal performances of all time.
So he was an effortless master But onthis particular record, I wouldn't say
that he Changed how much effort energytalent he was applying to it but he

(01:04:33):
did seem to along with Leon Ware makea Um, really intentional choices to
control his voice, in ways that weren'tas common, especially across the prior
records, to the degree that, one kindof funny review from Robert Christgau,

(01:04:54):
who we love to just read in general,cause he's always got fun things to say.
but.
when he was reviewing this record a longtime ago, he actually gave it a, a C plus,
which is, he's one of the people who's Idon't really need to approve or disapprove
of the ratings you put on a thing.
I just really like toread what you have to say.
But he's always extremely thoughtful andobviously very intelligent, always worth

(01:05:17):
reading what he does in his reviews.

Kyle (01:05:19):
mean to me and you can impress whatever Rorschach on this that you
want based on your, your personal views.
He's the Larry David of,of talking about music.
Like he's, he's always got totake, it's always totally his.
It very often makes you think wow, I'venever really thought of it in that way.
And why would a human beinghave that train of thought?

(01:05:40):
And okay.
Okay.
Okay.
Okay.
Well, most of the time when I've, Ifinished a Christgau review, I'm like,
all right, but it always changes andvery often expands my perspective.
So most of the time I'mlike, what an asshole.
And then I'm like, was he right?

Cliff (01:05:54):
Sort of to that end, you know, one of the things he wrote in his
review was, When he talked about IWant You, he said, As a Marvin Gaye
record, it's a Leon Ware record.
Uh, Ware is the producer who co wroteevery one of these which is more than
Marvin Gaye can claim that he producedor co wrote on that same album.
But was it where, quote, okay, But was itwhere who instructed Marvin to eliminate

(01:06:19):
all depth and power from his voice?
I mean, if you're into insisting on sex,it's in bad taste to whine about it.
Which is
a very good sentence.
Yes, a very good sentence.
So whether, this isanother exercise, right?
You don't have to agree or disagree.
With that interpretation of what'shappening here, because what we can get

(01:06:39):
from it, without judgment, is the factthat someone who very well understands
not only Marvin Gaye, but a lot of musicwrit large, identifies that Marvin was
intentionally restraining himself hereon a record that is ostensibly about
losing your restraint in certain respects.

(01:07:00):
And so, again, forbetter or worse, whether

Kyle (01:07:02):
feeling, but feeling safe to do so, you know, not, not being
uninhibited for uninhibited sake.

Cliff (01:07:08):
right.
So, to make that choice is notonly clearly intentional, but
is an interesting thing to notefrom, you know, a world renowned
vocalist cranking out this record.
That is true at the same time thatthis is when Marvin was also continuing
to build his reputation for not onlybeing a really good vocalist, but

(01:07:31):
also really good at understandinghow to produce his own voice.
So he was becoming more wellknown for creating his own
backing tracks and learning howto perfect what that looked like.
So one of the quotes from this record,uh, was for, I want you, Marvin did.
The song for, I want you, the songMarvin did the background, the lead

(01:07:55):
and the ad lib in a single night.
That's three songs in one.
That is all Marvin Gaye.
It's part of the quote, right?
so, spiritually aligned with the manyartists we've talked about on this podcast
who are prolific or able to crank out aton of ideas really quickly or totally
control their sound or come up with theideas that they want to produce exactly

(01:08:17):
what it is that they're envisioning.
For Marvin Gaye, that is a controlof his voice that goes, it's like an
order of magnitude beyond the thingthat we're thinking about when we
think about being able to control your

Kyle (01:08:29):
I also think it's.

Cliff (01:08:30):
he was constructing.

Kyle (01:08:32):
acknowledging that there's some of the Herbie Hancock thing in play here
where he wasn't afraid of new tools,and in fact, he didn't let the tools
dictate what he was going to do, but hesaw how they could expand his palette of
expression and Herbie Hancock, to me, islike the master of that over the years.

(01:08:52):
but for what's going on, you could putmore channels, more tracks to tape.
That was when 4 16 and whatever trackstarted becoming a thing in the studio.
And that was the first time westarted experimenting with that.
And so a few records in, we have a guythat has like, not made it his thing.
It wasn't like a novelty, but thinkit was like a craft that he had.

(01:09:16):
Kind of mastered so you could listen tothe record a hundred times and just try to
focus really intently for all 40 minutesof the run time on vocals and just be
like, my God, oh my God, wow, dude, wow.
you could really sort of Zenout with how can one person hear

(01:09:36):
that many layers in their head.

Cliff (01:09:38):
And maybe I'm pulling or pushing on this a little too hard, but I think
that helps align sort of spiritually withthe record's intent to, because being
able to get far enough into that musicwhere, you know, you were mentioning that
rhythm section and how locked in they are.
feeling that you can sort of getwhen you lock into the record

(01:09:59):
along with everybody else.
And there's sort of, there, there beginsto be this space between that rhythm
that you locked into, and then whateverit is you'd like to put your focus on.
And so to your point Not only do thevocals do that well in general, but
this alignment to the idea of like,there's a rhythm in our body that's

(01:10:21):
going on now, and we're going to lockinto each other, and there's going to be
a rhythm here, but we're still talking,and whether that's like literal speech,
whether that's singing, whether that'seye contact for a moment, You've got
that rhythm that's locked in and it'sstaying and then you've got this other
thing that you're sort of participatingin and you're, you're putting all of

(01:10:43):
your sort of energy and attention intoso that you can pay attention to what
your partner is telling you right then.
Right?
I don't usually find a great.
Cliché way to listen to records,especially sexy records like
this, but it works here.
You can really lock into that ideaof having rhythm with someone and

(01:11:06):
then a separate but, simultaneousconversation with somebody
where you're just expressing.
You're saying shit that comes toyour brain, they're saying shit back
to you that comes to their brain.
None of it actually makes sense.
If any, if either of you were to sayany, either of those things, outside
of that very particular context,you'd be like, shut the f shut up.

(01:11:26):
Don't ever say that again, right?
But inside of thosemoments, it's, it works.
It works because you're locked

Kyle (01:11:33):
I mean you, you brought to mind, you know, I was talking about Fela Kuti, that
idea of rhythm, helping to concentrateexpression and elevate it, is sort of the
sort of macro sociological political wayinto the spectrum is what Fela was always
doing like music must be for revolution.

(01:11:54):
And this is the moreintimate person to person.
But I think it's very much.
I think they exist on the same continuum,for me, the moment and everything
resonates with everybody differently.
But for me, the moment, That typifiesthe greatness of this record, uh, is
the beginning of since I had you, hejust sing some descending notes and

(01:12:17):
there's not even really words attachedto it, but he gets across more about
love or lust in the literal notes andthe delivery of those notes than most
people do in a whole career of love songs.
there's goosebumps.
There's chicken skin type power in it.

(01:12:39):
and the gift of Marvin Gaye wasto do so much with so little.
I mean, like it's, you could play a 10or 15 snippet of second snippet of just
that song and be like, whoa, where's more?
I need more of that right now.

Cliff (01:12:52):
to me, it is like the very beginning of a change that's gonna come.
And the way that Sam Cooke the firstthree words say more than a book you could

Kyle (01:13:05):
I was born.

Cliff (01:13:06):
about anything.
Yeah,

Kyle (01:13:09):
Other people,
other people recognize it too though.
Like there's a litany ofgreat quotes from interviews.
you know, there, there's that longinterview with Leon where that's so good.
Leon tells the story of the first timehe played it for Barry Gordy in like
a room full of 30 Motown executivesand the whole room went quiet.
But then I love this one fromthe Michael Eric Dyson book.
He was talking to GaryHarris, who's an A& R at EMI.

(01:13:31):
And he said, with the opening onsoon, I'll be loving you again
with the congas and the strings.
It's like the sun is rising.
It's a very cinematicapproach to the whole thing.
It shows a thing Quincy Jones called earcandy, the voicings and the arrangements
convey not only mood, but time,place, and image he's talking about.
I dreamed of you this morning.
It's crazy.

(01:13:52):
So the morning sunrise thing.
The other thing about Marvin in thesong is he always, no matter what he
was doing, how many risks you wouldtake, was a radical traditionalist and
always held on to his doo wop upbringing.
Those background harmonies, no matterhow increasingly percussive he got,
how funky, the background vocals werealways steeped in that tradition.

(01:14:13):
So the dichotomy of wanting to go inmore radical directions and doing it
but Sort of having a really regimentedfoundation like the sort of like the
dna of the music itself So I think thecollaboration really clicked here because
he found people Who contained the samesort of strict multitudes that he did.

Cliff (01:14:32):
To that end, we've sort of talked about ways to step back a little bit
and let music hit you and specificallyhow we could step back and sort of let
this album just hit and notice and takea note and move on and move through it.
But you mentioned a minute ago that vocalswere one of the things that you could have

(01:14:57):
a very rewarding experience focusing on.
I was curious, what else?
What else did you find could besomething that you could focus on or
isolate when listening to this recordintentionally, you know, with more
of an act of listening or trying todiscover a particular part of it?

Kyle (01:15:16):
you and I joke all the time about how Like, all you do is think,
and my gift is that I simply do not.
and that, we learn so much fromeach other, in the contrast of how
that means we both listen to music.
I can go years loving a songand being like, that's one
of my favorite songs ever.
And then somebody says thatsomething is in the lyrics,

(01:15:37):
and I'm like, no they're not.
And then I go look it upand I'm like, oh my god.
Oh, my God.
So, I live in a world ofpure vibe at all times.
so with that, the challenge of thisrecord is not, is to avoid getting swept
up in the hypnotic tide of the suite.
Multiple people called it a suitein like a jazz or classical sense.
And I really, that helpedsomething click for me.

(01:16:01):
but the record has noobvious beginning or end.
Like you, you could start on track five.
And just go from anywhere it works onshuffle, frankly, it's really beautifully
organically created in that way.
So I think my advice is to listen, not forsongs, but for small moments to come back
around to try and find a thing a second orthird time, all the elements in the DNA of

(01:16:25):
this thing are, are really, really cool.
you mentioned synths.
Not normally a thing that I.
Primarily listen for, but like, I thinkthat after the dance instrumental version
pulls that out if that sound grabs you,then listen for that all the way through.
strings are certainly one andthey're not overdone here.

(01:16:48):
In modern music, other than, like,Florence and the Machine, where it's
like part of the thing, strings normallysignal, like, this is a serious song, or
a beautiful song, or it's for a movie!
but string arrangements just sort oflent to the air of sophistication.
Of the proceedings, it wasjust like what you did.

(01:17:09):
so the arrangements were doneby Coleridge, Taylor Perkinson,
who is a cat worth looking up.
And I think in general, looking throughthe personnel credits and clicking the
deep links is a really worthwhile exerciseon this because it's nothing but top
guns on this thing, pursuant to your MarsVolta connection, percussion is a big one.

(01:17:30):
So like not.
drums specifically, but congas and stuff.
a couple of the loose collective known asthe Funk Brothers played congas on this.
So like, listen for the congapatterns on Come Live With Me Angel
or Soon I'll Be Loving You Again.
Great conga work.
And then if you really like that, golisten to Santana and, any other, like

(01:17:52):
Tito Puente and go in that direction.
the rhythm section we've talkedextensively about, James Gadson on
the drums is a super bad dude, playedon Donald Byrd and Aretha Franklin
and tons and tons of, I think he haslike over a thousand credits, maybe
I'm confusing him with Chuck Rainey.
Both of them are, are like.

(01:18:12):
You know, the most decorated veteransof their instrument essentially in
20th century recorded music, fourpeople played bass on this record.
Chuck Rainey kind ofbe in the biggest name.
and the baselines on impartialcome live with me angel.
But especially since I had you arejust like, there's an ascending you.
Um, short ascending line as Marvin isgoing into the chorus, since I had you

(01:18:36):
that, that sort of signals the likeelevated heart rate, but it's real subtle.
it's a blink and you miss it.
It's the like, the greatest choruses arethe ones you only sing once in the song.
It doesn't overly announce itself.
melodic musical bass lines that arelike, so beyond my comprehension.
But they're so cool.

(01:18:57):
and then obviously voice control.
There's not one iota more ofanything than there needs to be.
that's sort of the, expertlevel part of the whole thing.
Were there any, any, I know Ijust like ran down the whole list.
What was it?
Oh, the silence in between tracks.
Well, I definitely appreciated that.
What did I miss?

(01:19:17):
What else did you like?
Yeah.

Cliff (01:19:21):
really good options.
Synths, strings, percussions,the rhythm section And
the relationship then betweendrums and bass and voice control.
Strings were the surprise hit for me, andit did not then surprise me to go back
and read further interviews and quotes andall that from those strings being arranged

(01:19:42):
at the time and people basically beingliterally shocked at how good they were.
And how good they were coming outduring the the creation of this record
Because I think I'm not always the golisten to the surprising thing Person,
I think that can lead you down someweird paths that aren't always helpful

(01:20:02):
in music but here the strings were Aworthwhile thing to just listen out for
on a regular basis because they, theyhad a, I think you've called a lot of the
things here, you know, subtle a coupleof times the intentional complexity.
Sitting within a sort of subtle shellor packaging in a lot of this music is

(01:20:28):
really rewarding to listen to and hear.
One thing we definitely have toappreciate about Motown Records
is they still sound really cool.
they, they just, they have a pristinequality to them that really let you
hear almost spatially the differentlayers that get recorded in.

(01:20:49):
And so I appreciate those, uh,about Motown Records in general,
but yeah, especially strings here.
You know, I think we've mentionedsome of the other surprises and fun
things that can catch off guard withall the rhythm, but yeah, strings.
And then especially if you are avocalist and you've never spent time
listening to Marvin Gaye on purpose,now's a real good time to do it.

(01:21:11):
just literally listening to everyway that he opens and closes a given
word, note, phrase, where he breathes,the way that he ad libs when he does.
it's a truly interesting exercisein, watching someone who has every
right to use their voice as muchas they want to, using it in very

(01:21:33):
particular ways to try to, you know,more or less impress somebody else.
That they were writing this record for

Kyle (01:21:41):
he was notorious for.
Not committing anything to tape until.
Until it was like exactly howhe considered it actualized.
He spent 13 months on thevocals for this and it shows.
So
I don't think it's overstating it.
I think you're exactly right.
every choice to do or not door do a certain way is deeply

(01:22:05):
deliberate and considered.
And if you.
are also a practitioner of the craftcould do no better than to study
everything he did or decided not to do.
And if, if you would go right on acertain run and he goes left, think about
what other possibilities that opens up.
Just very, very inventiveand unique in that way.

(01:22:30):
And truly like reinvented the form of.
A vocal delivery.
And I think that's the story forme of this record in a lot of ways
you know, we'll talk about ErnieBarnes and the artwork in a minute.
but I saw comparisons to othermasters of the respective crafts that

(01:22:50):
The signal to timelessness to me.
So like Coleridge, TaylorPerkinson, the string arranger.
I love, love that you love the strings.
I would, would not have picked that answerfor you, but I, it makes me so happy.
they talked about how he like.
Evolved the form of classical compositionfrom the Baroque masters and invoked
blues and jazz and really sophisticatedand interesting and not overt ways.

(01:23:13):
There's a lot of like cool Trojanhorsing, but not for the sake of being
punk or anything, just because theyhave absorbed a lot of inputs and
synthesize them smartly and uniquely.
And I think everybody that touched thisrecord did their own version of that.
And I take a lot of inspiration from that.
sort of direction.

Cliff (01:23:32):
so then to this end as we think about the impact that this record has had
there's a couple of like very specificAvenues that we can go down And so we'll
do both lightly well one of them you were

Kyle (01:23:46):
It's another one for the drinking game.
We'll do both, lightly.

Cliff (01:23:49):
You were mentioning the artwork and that's this is as close to a bit of trivia
as we'll probably get on this episode, uh,but it's worth knowing a little bit more
about that, I think, because it also thenspeaks to how pervasive, culturally, this
thing was, even if every time we thinkof Marvin Gaye's most important records,

(01:24:13):
we don't necessarily put this one at thetop, or even at number two, so the album
artwork, Is a painting, pre existed,prior to becoming the artwork for this.
It was originally,

Kyle (01:24:26):
you sensing a motif here?
Leon Ware, Ernie Barnes?

Cliff (01:24:29):
Exactly!

Kyle (01:24:31):
I'm gonna find the stuff I like and make it mine, but not in a Drake way.

Cliff (01:24:35):
Ha ha

Kyle (01:24:37):
I'm gonna make it

Cliff (01:24:38):
thank Canadian Jesus for that.
Yeah.
Good

Kyle (01:24:41):
to picture my Jesus wearing
jeans on top and on the bottom.

Cliff (01:24:45):
So this, this painting, uh, was called the Sugar Shack that was on
that became the artwork for this album.
Uh, it was painted and releasedby a, quote, neo mannerist artist
named Ernie Barnes in 1971.

Kyle (01:25:01):
about music genre, but like art, art, genre and movement labels are tight.
I don't know what the difference is.
I don't know how to parse it.
I mean, this is the domainof my wife professionally.
I should just ask her.
but yeah, neo mannerist is cool.
I would like to be called a neomannerist, but not an R& B artist.

(01:25:22):
And I don't know why.

Cliff (01:25:23):
It'd be cool if they just used decades like the rest of us to describe
a period of time instead of puttingneo in front of an old thing that
happened a hundred years before that.

Kyle (01:25:33):
Yeah, all this is 1976.

Cliff (01:25:36):
Right.
Marvin Gaye was introducedto Ernie Barnes, the artist,
of this album by a colleague.
It led to him buying eight originalsby Ernie Barnes, including this one,
The Sugar Shack, and Marvin askedfor permission to use the painting
as an album cover, and then Barnesaugmented the painting by adding

(01:25:59):
references to the album, includingthe banners hanging from the ceiling
of the shack promoting the album's
singles.
So if you were listening to ustalk and being like, there's no way
this painting existed before thealbum artwork because I've seen the
album artwork and it's about the
album, like,

Kyle (01:26:15):
affecting me right now?
Yeah.

Cliff (01:26:17):
you played yourself, bro.
Yeah.
Yeah, to your point, it's anothermicrocosm of the whole kind of overall
story of this where it's like, oh, athing sort of exists that Marvin Gaye
has looked at and said, that's a thing.
And I know how to make it.
A better version of thisthing that I want it to be.
And so I'm going to use it and work withthe artist, In either case, whether it's

(01:26:42):
the artwork, whether it's Leon Ware,whether it's the bandmates he worked
with, like, It wasn't a case of, I knowhow to do this better, so I'm gonna
take what you did, go over here, and nowI've done it, and look at what I did.
It was always I'm digging what you'redoing, and I'd like to do this.
I want to ask permission to takethis and then work with you to make a

(01:27:03):
version that represents the way I feeland think and am capable and all of

Kyle (01:27:09):
A lot of one on one makes three, which I think is fitting
for sort of the subject mattercelebration he's doing on the record.

Cliff (01:27:17):
yeah.
And later on then to, put these threadstogether too just like this album and its
music would go on to not only influencea lot over time, but also continue
to be, even to this day, a very real,prescient, influence that people are
sampling, using, covering everything.

(01:27:37):
So on top of that being true forthe music, it's also true in its own
way for the album artwork itself.
Ernie Barnes, the artist gainedfurther recognition from art critics
after this became known as one ofthe best black painters of his time.
Uh, and was called at leastby some people, the Picasso
of the black art world.

(01:27:58):
and then that original piece wouldthen later be purchased by Eddie

Kyle (01:28:01):
And he made a second version of it that was used, shown in
the end credits of Good Times.
and that was, even if you didn'tlisten to Marvin Gaye, it was totally
iconic in black popular culture.
In many ways, and that was bought bya businessman who regularly who lives

(01:28:21):
in Texas, I think, and regularly showsit, especially during Black History
Month, uh, different universitiesand in museums around the way.
So it's like could not be a moreiconic piece of 20th century Americana.
In in any conceivable way, but like Ialso saw pieces where he was compared

(01:28:41):
to the legendary Flemish 16th centurypainter, Peter Bruegel, the elder, uh,
he was compared to Edgar Degas, so likethat you could even invoke, classical
artists name dropping in the visualartist tradition, talking about the
Marvin Gaye record about, you know,Getting down is like, is amazing.

(01:29:03):
It's elevated.
I think what makes it timeless andlasting is that it's, elevated.
It's built to last, sort of separatesit from a lot of the modern stuff
about the subject and I don't wantto like sound boomery about it, but
I think this record will last as, aslong as the earth or the internet do.

(01:29:23):
Because they, they went for a cut above

Cliff (01:29:26):
Well, and to reinforce that idea, though, of it being a different
time in creating art that were, thatwould perpetuate into our future,
Ernie Barnes, the artist prior tothat, Was an NFL football player.
Which thanks to CTE and its many wonderfulgifts, we can't expect many of our modern

(01:29:48):
NFL players to become lovely, thoughtful,neo mannerist artists later in their

Kyle (01:29:54):
I'm holding, I'm holding out for the great Latter day
works of Travis Kelce, personally.

Cliff (01:30:00):
pfft, pfft, pfft.

Kyle (01:30:02):
I got a song about an octopus

Cliff (01:30:04):
I hate you for that.
Uh, When Ernie Barnes was talkingabout this work, though, I love that
you pulled this quote out, Kyle.
this really kind of wraps around andenvelops the spirit of the record,
even when he talks about the painting.
Because he said, The paintingtransmits rhythm, so the experience

(01:30:26):
is recreated in the person viewing it.
To show that African Americansutilize rhythm as a way of
resolving physical tension.
And what's nice about that is not only,not only is that a really nice just
way of looking at it on its face butthis idea of a culture that might be

(01:30:47):
different than yours using physicalityas a way to resolve tension is a sort
of Mental motif, I think that you canplay with when you try to go further
into this record and understanding notonly what was its sort of intention,
which we've talked a lot about, right?

(01:31:08):
And who was it for?
And how did it get made?
But like, what's being done?
What is happening in the music?
What was literally being experiencedas it was being produced and what
was conceptualized as like thefeeling of then later being able
to listen to it and experience it?

(01:31:28):
And I can say Because other peoplehave wisely said it, uh, and talked
through it in different interviewsand things like this that this record
itself represents black eroticismin a way that not everybody is
able, willing, or capable of reallyinternalizing and accepting as just it is.

(01:31:50):
A different culture that uses physicalitypotentially in a different way than you do
or that you might be used to or that youhaven't observed before and how that kind
of Ends up wrapping us up in our own shitwhen we're trying to listen or understand
or experience something different if wehave if we're all caught up in the ways

(01:32:11):
that we Deal with things or think aboutthings or use our bodies or whatever
else It's our fun too hard for us tounderstand what actually might be going
on for different people in moments likethis And so that idea that the painting
itself represents that and that you canstep inside of it there But then inside
of the piece of art that that is the coverfor you can further experience that right

(01:32:35):
like literally resolving physical tensionFiguring out how to move your body with
somebody else in a rhythm in a way thatfeels good looks good works for everybody
like That's its own gift, uh, and ittends to be its own sort of sporadic
thing that never repeats itself again.
Even if you can get something goodgoing with somebody, you know,

(01:32:58):
every time is a little bit unique.

Kyle (01:33:00):
Yeah, I love that you have started to touch on the, like,
what do you do if it doesn't?
resonate with you or it, makesyou feel some type of way.
you know, for anyone who might notfeel much in common with it, certainly
right away, Tom Jurek reviewed therecord for all music and, at the
risk of a pun, painted a picture.

(01:33:23):
Of what this record is forcaptured it really nicely.
And he said the subject matter is as closeto explicit as pop records got in 1976.
The feel of the album was one of latenight parties and basements and small
clubs and the intimacy of the music evokesthe image of people getting closer as
every hour of the steamy night wears on.

(01:33:45):
One of my wife's and myfavorite records is A.
M.
by the Arctic Monkeys, which is veryliterally a concept record about
going from the start of the nightthrough the start of the next morning.
And this does that in a way thatsort of pushes it out of the
linear time space continuum.
He said the most astonishing thingsabout I Want You are its intimacy,

(01:34:05):
silky elegance, silky is a great wordfor this record, and seamless textures.
I Want You and its companion,Where's Musical Massage, are the
preeminent early disco conceptalbums, which are adult albums about
intimacy, sensuality, and commitment.
And decades later they stillreverberate with class, sincerity.
Grace, intense focus, andastonishingly good taste.

(01:34:29):
So, even if that doesn't meansomething to you, it has meant that
very deeply to very many people.
And there's something to be said forsitting with the feeling of, that's really
cool that it has the ability to do that.
And I would like tohear from those people.

(01:34:49):
I would like to know,like, tell me your stories.
Tell me what it evokes for you.
If it doesn't bring a picture or afeeling to mind for me immediately, I
want to talk to somebody for whom it does.
And in that way, like, musichas truly limitless possibility.

Cliff (01:35:04):
I wouldn't want to close out a conversation without at least mentioning
some of the biggest highlights ofmusical impact from this record,
including how it still gets used.
So.
I want to make sure we touch on someof that because we've also teased
some of it out as we've talked.
but this was one of those moments wherewe, we've sort of danced around this idea

(01:35:28):
a little bit, but it was one of thosemoments where can't say that everyone
in the studio went there and said,we're going to make a new thing now.
Now is a new thing.
Today, starting today, newgenre, new thing, right?
And we're going to intentionallychange the way everything else works.
Even from that quote that you

Kyle (01:35:46):
It's your cousin, Marvin Barry!

Cliff (01:35:49):
But you, uh, the quote you read mentioned, right, that the feel of the
album was like One of late night partiesin basements of small clubs like I even
I joked at the beginning I learned a lotabout party records over the course of
learning more about this record Whichjust for for those of you have never
heard that before I actually got therebecause I'm just gonna be vulnerable

(01:36:11):
with everyone on the internet now.
Here we go I got very curiousafter listening to this record,
um, What is, what is thehistory of using moans in music?
Who,

Kyle (01:36:22):
I hope you search that in private browsing.

Cliff (01:36:25):
I wasn't born yesterday, my brother,
Uh,

Kyle (01:36:29):
is TOR even for?
Oh

Cliff (01:36:32):
But I got really curious about it because it was like,
This, the answer is either gonnabe really stupid or really funny.
Right?
There's, whose first idea was this?
And then I got an answer that I didn'texpect, which was that, actually,
there was an entire subculture creatingvinyl records that weren't available
for people to pick up in the store.

(01:36:54):
They had to ask for them becausethey were hidden behind the counter.
And they were called party records,and they were vinyl records
that were primarily sex noises.
Which is like, Oh, so you canprobably guess like the next like 30
minutes of my brain was just like,Okay, I have a lot of questions.
I have a lot of questions.
What do you do when you get one of these?

(01:37:14):
What were you doing with this?
Were you hanging out with people?
And so I just learned more and more,uh, and I learned, you know, many
things that made me slightly culturallyuncomfortable, including the fact
that a lot of people like to gettogether and then listen to those.
And, uh, I also learned, I'm literallyjust going to seed this and move past it,
but I also learned a hilarious story aboutFrank Zappa being tricked into recording

(01:37:36):
one of those and then being arrested

Kyle (01:37:37):
my god,

Cliff (01:37:38):
uh, because it was technically illegal.

Kyle (01:37:40):
but there,
but
there's also a whole strain.
Of comedy in that too.
Like
party would also include likeRed Fox, Red Fox's early stuff.
And they're like, it doesn'tgonna be that kind of party.
I'm gonna stick my, you know, whatin the mashed potatoes that gets
sampled by the BC boys and all ofthat stuff that I remember the first
time I heard that sample, I waslike, why was this committed to tape?

Cliff (01:38:04):
to put it extremely concisely, but more funny, in the same way that
Dune was a book that no one gave ashit about, and then a company that
published car manuals was like, I reallylike your story about this Shia Lube
guy, and then they publish his book.
In much the same way, basically, comedyrecords, and especially black comedy

(01:38:26):
records, were effectively published andpopularized by party record record labels.
Who were like, yeah, we're into this.
Yeah.
No, you're funny.
No.
Yeah.
Yeah, we're gonna do this now.
so there was a whole lot that I learned.

Kyle (01:38:40):
I went to a talk recently by, uh, professor at Duke we're
very lucky in Atlanta to have a, aliteral hip hop professor and Dr.
Joycelyn Wilson, who teaches a sociology,sort of like current affairs class
steeped in the language of Southern rap.
This guy gave a great talk on likehow we got to hip hop before hip hop.

(01:39:02):
It was like the 150 year anthropologicalhistory that included, and I wish
I could remember the party record.
It was a very specific one, but howthat was like, if you love hip hop,
this is a, this is an element ofthe DNA that is maybe not obvious
on its face, but in a number of wayswas influential to its development.

Cliff (01:39:22):
Yeah, so there are definitely interesting offshoots there and plenty
more to go learn about if you're curious,but Then thinking about okay There
was a lot that inspired what happenedon this record So not everything was
like I said, not everything was justlike a brand new thought, right?
So the mixture of funk and interludesand arrangements and ad libbing and

(01:39:47):
Moans and all kinds of stuff, right?
This wasn't all a new idea.
However, the way that it was puttogether, the fact that it was Marvin
Gaye, the fact that it was Leon Ware,the fact that it was these musicians,
the fact that it was put out by Motown,the fact that it sounds so good, the
fact that the songs are so great, right?
Like all of those things createdlike Almost every record that we

(01:40:11):
ever talk about creates an outsizeddownstream effect That's pretty hard
to trace back unless you actuallyknow to look for it because monumental

Kyle (01:40:21):
once, you know, you see it.
Everywhere.

Cliff (01:40:23):
Yep.
Yep It's impossible to unseein that same way, right?
Let's just go ahead and justlet you not unsee neo souls
path all the way back into this.
You know, we mentioned if you likevoodoo, if you like D'Angelo, so
quarians kind of anything in that range,you have a direct spiritual secession

(01:40:47):
from Marvin Gaye and from this record.
To the point that, like, one anecdote,just to really make sure, you know,
that all these things are tied together.
after Marvin Gaye died, D'Angelo beganhaving recurring dreams about Marvin Gaye.
and eventually, after D'Angelo got signed,He said he had his final dream about

(01:41:10):
Marvin Gaye, and he said, I was followingMarvin as a grown man, and he was a bit
heavier, and he had a beard, and he wasnaked, and all I could see was his back
and the cap that he used to wear allthe time, and he got into his whirlpool
jacuzzi with his wife and his daughterand his little son, and that's when he
turns around and looks at me, and hegoes, I know you're wondering why you keep

(01:41:31):
dreaming about me, and then I woke up.

Kyle (01:41:33):
Makes me.
Love that episode of Atlanta evenmore, where the same thing happens with
D'Angelo and he's like, I am D'Angelo.
We are D'Angelo.
Sometimes I just say it tomyself, we are all D'Angelo.
And the answer is yes, we are.
With any luck.

Cliff (01:41:50):
so there is plenty there and, uh, we don't make any money
when you go back and listen toour past podcasts, but you should.
We really love the voodooepisode that we did, and so do
others.

Kyle (01:42:01):
I, simply will not shut up about that album.
the album is on.

Cliff (01:42:05):
There's no need to.
So, there's plenty moreto see in that lineage.
There's also plenty more to seethrough hopefully I don't have to
stay too much of the obvious of like,Prince was a pretty sexy dude, okay?
he knew, he knew how to work whateverends of the gender spectrums he wanted

(01:42:25):
at any given point, and he is able toaffect all of us, no matter how straight
we find ourselves to be on the inside.
And so that, I mean, from Prince, toSade, to whoever else, like, learns
how to channel soul and R& B intomusic that is truly legitimately sexy.

(01:42:47):
A lot of that stems from exactly thisrecord, uh, and the way that this got
approached, even down to the genre thatbecame known as Quiet Storm, which is
really just sort of like a way of thinkingabout how casual this album felt and
how if you, you know, maybe tamp downthe subject matter intensity a little

(01:43:09):
bit, you just end up with something very

Kyle (01:43:12):
Lo lo fi beats to do something other than study to.
There's also a, I shared with you, likeright before we started recording the
Madonna and Massive Attack cover of thetitle track, which is like, I wouldn't
have thought about Portishead or Bjorkor Massive Attack being inherently
connected, but like, of course they are.

(01:43:33):
They're Quiet Storm in their own way.
People, everyone from Madonna to ToddRundgren to EPMD saying that they're
influenced by or reinterpolatingsomething of Marvin's is like the same
way that Bitches Brew said we want todo, Miles Davis said we want to do rock

(01:43:54):
and out came this like cosmic goo thatwas an entirely different thing and
changed the way rock sounded forever.
You see those strains mutatingout from this record in a
bunch of different directions.
So when you, when you see that feelpopping up in something that may not
sound like I want you, there's probablya couple of degrees back of influence

(01:44:18):
where even if they're not trying tosound like it, they're trying to feel
like it, this record such potent.
Unabated feel that I think it'sanybody who's ever wanted to make a
record aspires to that in some way.

Cliff (01:44:33):
Totally.
I'm glad you mentioned that one.
I was going to say that the two, Ithink, modern interpolations that
are worth really spinning up quicklyare, like you said, the Madonna cover
that features Massive Attack, whichis really cool, but is concretely In
the exact moment in history that it

(01:44:53):
was made, right?
It feels extremely that year.
In the same way, so that you can kindof see the timelessness of I Want You.
Same song but Kendrick Lamar's TheHeart Part 5, that is I Want You.
ends the whole song.
By saying that like it is about thissong and about Marvin Gaye and about

(01:45:17):
what all of this meant and then Kendrickis pulling it into, you know, I think
2022 was when, when he dropped thatlast one my, he is just pulling all of
that into raw modern hip hop and, youknow, in case, in case the heart part
five hasn't reminded you, or you'renot a big, um, Kindra Kat, I guess.

(01:45:38):
That's the video with all thedeepfake faces, uh, that came
out, which, fun fact Matt and Treyfrom South Park made that video.
Uh,
right?
but that is a totally differentinterpolation, right, of the song, of
this idea, than the Madonna version was,or than the originals, or any of the

(01:45:59):
countless hip hop and otherwise songs thathave sampled different portions of Marvin
Gaye, this album or that song in general.
But both of those are really good waysof just seeing so clearly that If you put
this record on for somebody and didn'ttell them what it was, You wouldn't have
a hard time convincing them that it cameout like this year that it's a brand new

(01:46:21):
record It sounds good.
It feels good.
It works and the nostalgia aspect ofhearing something like this will just make
you realize that things like Silksonic arejust lifting things pretty directly from
the past and putting them into the future.

Kyle (01:46:38):
the feel of a Victoria Monet or any era of Beyonce ever.
You know, there's so much.
Anything that.
moves you and doesn't feelalgorithmic or designed for a diet
Coke commercial compressed to hell.
there, there are certainlystrains of that here.
So, you know, if you listen and it doesmove you, I guess the essential question.

(01:47:04):
If it moves you or it doesn'tyet, but you want it to, you
feel the strains of something.
You know, the essential questionis where do we go from here?
What do I do with that feeling cliff?
Let me just lay down on this couch andplease tell me as a therapy joke, that
was not another drinking game moment.

Cliff (01:47:22):
Why not both?
I think.
I got him on that one.
That was good.

Kyle (01:47:26):
I just, I wanted to immediately segue to Say something about yes
and, and then a joke about howyou definitely shouldn't take
home a person who does improv.
Um, but I, I couldn't make the connection.

Cliff (01:47:37):
that's okay.
Earlier when you said this remindedyou of Dope Smoker, my brain said
drop out of life with dong in hand.
So you're welcome.

Kyle (01:47:44):
when we, when we quit our corporate jobs, we're just going to start an Etsy
store that makes incredibly niche bumperstickers with nothing to put them on.

Cliff (01:47:52):
I may start now.
So, one of the reasons I think yourquestion is really cool here and
I've hinted at this a little bit,but like, I'm not a person who wakes
up in the morning and is inherentlyready to listen to the sexiest music.
it just isn't the way that Ifeel, especially with how music

(01:48:15):
tends to interpret sensuality.
I just aligned to it alittle bit differently.
So I think though that exercise andwhat you're asking me, like, what
do you kind of do with what you'refeeling in this record is a really
important part of like why we feellike this podcast matters and how we
can help other people to experience.
Other aspects of their life that theymay not know that they can be open to

(01:48:36):
yet because this record if you put yourheart into it Will give you a lot of
feelings and a lot of those feelings forsomeone like me are sort of I wouldn't
say Unwelcome, but they're a littlehard to parse I'm like, okay, okay, I'm
not sure if I'm turned on or if you'returned on, and I'm just listening to you.

(01:49:00):
I'm like, okay, but letme think through it.
So, re contextualizing it, I know we'vetalked about it a number of times, but
like, these are Songs that Marvin Gayechanneled mostly written by other people
who were directing their own energyat whatever those songs were, which he
then took and redirected back towardsa very particular person, his lover,

(01:49:26):
like the person he was making this musicfor and focused on, um, and it is it.
Reflective to the degree that, for allthe things that Janice Hunter would
go on to say about their relationship,about their story, about Marvin's songs,
like everything, at the very leastwhat we know is she said the songs

(01:49:50):
were reflective of their relationship.
That it seemed to capture a thing that wasreal for them in that particular moment.
And so, for me, one of the things I cando with How I Feel, Is practice holding
space for the time and space of thesensuality and sexuality of two other

(01:50:10):
people who at that time were again, we'regoing to move forward with the assumption
that we're talking about two consentingadults at this particular point.
Okay, but these are two peoplewho really wanted each other.
And one person who was flat outfucking famous who needed to write
a Muse record about somebody, eventhough he had absolutely no need to

(01:50:35):
come back to commercial records andhad otherwise sworn him off, right?
So for better or worse and withoutjudgment, Whatever this was created enough
motion in this human being to go out andfind a way to create another record using
other people to try to get the feelingand the vibe that he wanted to express

(01:50:56):
and truly present to another person.
That helps me to holdspace for other people.
And by extension for, you know,like we talked about a little
bit with the painting and, andunderstanding how different people
and cultures like use their bodies.
It helps me to leave space for peoplein a way that honestly feels good to me.
Like actually, I don't need to figure outwhether that made sense for them or not.

(01:51:20):
This is what the record is about.
I know what it feels like to havemy version of what they were doing.
and, you know, my versionsof that may have been, my, my
muse is closer to my age, okay?
Uh, and the times where I had thisintensity of feeling, I didn't have
the artistry in me to convey it.

(01:51:43):
I was not a, 36 or whatever year oldperson like Marvin Gaye was when he was
trying to figure out how to do this.
But I am now, and so being able tolisten to this and figure out, like, it
really, it sparked a little bit in me.
Like, if you had had the capacity towrite something about this when you
were 19 or 20, what would that havebeen and what would that have felt like?

(01:52:08):
What have that sounded like?
How would that have worked?
Would it have connected withanybody, including the other person?
you know, those are a lot of questionsI don't have very pretty answers
to, but it, Puts me into the musicin a different way by being able to
understand enough of what was happeningand then find a way to just allow it.

(01:52:29):
It existed.
It's something I can know about,and here's this document of what it
felt like for at least two people.
and the ability to listen in andobserve without, I mean, you're sort
of listening and observing into anintimate moment that you otherwise are
not really permitted to be a part of,and here somebody's letting you into it.

(01:52:51):
it opens me up.
It opens me up to different expressions.
It opens me up to being more flexibleto like, remember that whatever shit
somebody says in that situation isprobably not the smoothest thing.
I have to remember that Marvin Gayeoutlived all this stuff himself.
And not all of it isjust pristinely worded.
Some of it's just him jibjabberingback towards somebody else and saying

(01:53:13):
literally what his body wants right then.
And like, That's still Marvin Gaye,and he still did it with vocal control.
He still did it with excellence, ontop of the band, on an incredible
record that went on to inspire alot of other people and things.
one of the things it did was it reallysurprised me for the space that I found
out I could leave and accommodate.
For other things and other people'sexperiences that are intimate, um,

(01:53:37):
that don't have anything to do with me,but that I can see myself in because
I had my own version of it, you know,

Kyle (01:53:43):
Yeah, I have always struggled with that phrase, holding space, being like
one of those internet charged phrasesand not really knowing what it means to
me personally, but I like the way youframed it, you know, every time somebody
tries to give some part of themselves toyou or to the world at large because they

(01:54:04):
don't know who specifically to give itto or both, is an opportunity for you in
turn to turn toward or turn away from it.
And, you know, there's thatpsychological study that gets talked
about a lot in couples counselingthat the one true predictor of
the longevity of a relationship iswhen given a cue by their partner.
The ones who succeed in a relationshipmost often are the ones who consistently

(01:54:25):
turn toward and acknowledge andreciprocate in some way that expression
of love or pain or feeling or whatever,that has so affected the way that
I think about my life and music hashelped me do that because like I was.
So I am very judgy young person.
That sucks.

(01:54:45):
I hate that.
That's not as good.
This thing's better than this other thing.
Things need a hierarchy and a rank orderand a what, you know, just like typical
white guy, teenager blogger bullshit.
Moving away from that into a nonjudgmentalplace and especially not, not just
additionally, but especially whenit's challenging, when the person

(01:55:08):
and the art have a gap in the thingsthey're making me feel it's better.
When it's additive and I can sit with thattension between those two things and be
grateful for the things that they've givenme and try to embrace them for all that.
I mean, like with the obvious,like crazy criminal things aside,
some of the examples we've citedearlier like everybody sucks.

(01:55:31):
You know what I mean?
Like I, me most of all.
and I would just hope that the thingsthat I try to express and put in the
world, Additive for other people.
So I try to practice that kind ofgolden rule y type of thing as well.
and it's good when it's challenging.
And I find that trying to get morevalue out of people and things and

(01:55:52):
tastes and experiences and sensationshas made me more at peace with myself.
Like being nonjudgmental has.
I don't want to say made me abetter person because I don't,
what does that even mean?
But like certainly has made melove myself Better and I think
that anytime we like reach outlash out at something in judgment.
It's just we don't love ourselves enoughI don't love myself enough, whatever So

(01:56:17):
that's why I love things like this like ifit doesn't speak to you immediately maybe
it's just not for you And the best momentsin those situations are when you're like,
but maybe I want it to be I don't know.
There's something there like,ah, this record is a lot.
Oh, I don't know if I should be listeningto this, but like, I'm really drawn to it.

(01:56:38):
And just finding your way to arelationship with the thing and the
person and the other people who aredrawn to it and the stories around
it and what it can compel you todo in your own life experience.
And just The messiness of all of that islike the singular thing that makes the
shit show of life worth continuing on inthe older we get and the harder it gets

(01:57:03):
and the more complicated it gets, youknow, everything gets parsed into ones
and zeros, literally and spiritually inthe digital world, but like out in the
real world where we can, in the spiritof this record, touch each other, right?
Like, be physically close.
Everything lives in the messy middle.
All the good shit.
Nothing's perfect.
But it's good.
It's there.

(01:57:23):
It's real.
You can feel it.
that's sort of like thetakeaway spirit for me.

Cliff (01:57:30):
I think that's extra important in all capital letters, these
modern times with the internet, just

Kyle (01:57:37):
era vulgaris.

Cliff (01:57:39):
yeah, well, so much of what we have now rewards us and incentivizes us.
To take those moments ofexperiencing something either
different or just not for you.
And rewards our snap judgments and dunks.
Right?
The ability to quotetweet and ratio a thing.

(01:58:00):
Is not only easy, but is, has become theway that a lot of our things are designed.
It is the engagement machine thatkeeps us talking to each other about
nothing so that we can see more ads.
And like, we all do some of that, okay?
And some things are fun to dunk on.
Okay, we dunked on Drake likefour times in this episode.

(01:58:22):
It's easy.
So that's fine.
That's right.
I'm the Michael Jordanof dunking on Drake.
This is great.
but, you want to monitor that in yourself.
And you want to think about thatreally carefully, because if you
look at the whole collection ofthings that are out there, the vast
majority of them are not for you.
They're not for you.

(01:58:43):
They're for someone else.
They're for some other group,

Kyle (01:58:46):
That vast majority, by the way, does not mean 75%.
It means like nine, nine pointnine, nine, nine, nine, nine, nine.
Even if it sort of feels likeit might be for you or you want
it to be, it's not, it's for,
it's for that person or that group.
Make your own

Cliff (01:59:03):
But we feel sad, and we don't know what to do with it, so we look for
dopamine hits, and the dopamine hits comefrom really easily, harshly judging shit,
and putting it on the internet, and thenletting people like our harsh judgment of
all that shit that we put on the internet,and all we're really doing It's training
our body to respond to something negative,and then we take that feeling and then

(01:59:24):
we pipe it into judgment and bullshitat other people and at their expense.
And I think a thing that you willagree with me on, because we talk about
it so much, is like that's the trap.
That's the trap man.
it's fun to do it a little bit andeveryone has a bit of an edge on it But if
you spend most of your time thinking abouthow other people are doing shit that they

(01:59:47):
shouldn't be doing Or how things aren'tthe way that they should be for you You
will turn into a literal curmudgeon Youwill create a little cycle in yourself
where all you're doing is judging thingsand Calling them names because they
don't make sense to you immediately.
And the more you do that, theworse you get at identifying

(02:00:07):
things that can be for you.
Because now everything's got to fit thispristine little box that you had in your
brain to begin with and that's the trap.
And so to be able to take arecord like this and both have the
experience of okay, I can approachthis sort of historically and almost
amorally and consume it that way.

(02:00:28):
But then on the other hand like we'vetalked about I mean, the first time I
listened intently to tracks with moanson it, I wanted to respond to it, right?
I wanted to I wanted to say somethinglike, This cheapens it, or, That really
dates it, or, you know, Think about whatthis song could have been without these.

(02:00:49):
Right.
And it, and it was this reallyquick response, almost reactive.
I feel like one of the things thatwe have truly blessed ourselves
with and that other people can blessthemselves with, learning to let
that exist as a thought, just likeanything else, and then let it go.
You actually don't need to labeleverything that you don't understand

(02:01:10):
or see or even that your bodyresponds to in one way or the other.
In fact, if your body respondsnegatively to something, it might be
a good moment to take a second andexamine it and figure out whether
that's actually an ick that you'd liketo stick around or whether that's some
bullshit that's contributing to a badpart of your personality, you know?

Kyle (02:01:31):
touch your nose.
If you can tell somebody on thispodcast has been to therapy, just,

Cliff (02:01:35):
All I know to get better is to talk to people and to listen to music
better So yeah, those are thetwo things that I know to do.

Kyle (02:01:41):
So what you're saying, Cliff, is that Marvin would want us to
get out of the doom loop and getin the pit and try to love someone?
That's where life happens.

Cliff (02:01:49):
He might give us a little bit of drugs to do it

Kyle (02:01:51):
A little bit.
Just a toot.
You know, it's so funny.
Your take didn't even occur to me.
Like, the wavelength of, judgment wereCringe or whatever, you know, I was like,
the vibe was immediately apparent to me.
Like this feels good.
I'm like, I'm, I'm wired for pleasure.
I'm a creature wired for pleasure.

(02:02:13):
So like, of course this feels good.
It's just like I, thewavelength hit me immediately.
it did not even occur tome that someone could feel.
The way that you have at leastacknowledged or observed, right, whether
or not you yourself feel that way.
So I, I appreciate just withinthinking about the kind of record.

(02:02:34):
This is not necessarilythis specific record itself.
Like, I appreciate this, thespectrum there and sort of like the
rich tapestry of humanity just inthat, What I think is undeniable,
though, is the mastery on display.
For what this is, it is the bestversion of what this thing is.

(02:02:55):
And in that way, I thinkit makes it transcendent.
It is a feeling distilled into.
It's sonic essence, you know, where,where words fail, music speaks, it's
that old saying epitomized and, it'slike the highest order function of
music in our lives and the, the reasonfor my money that we feel compelled

(02:03:19):
against all logic to keep making it fromall, all recorded past into infinity.

Cliff (02:03:25):
Go to tundig.
com for more information about thisepisode and the album we just covered,
including a full transcript andlinks to other interesting facts.
Follow us on Instagram and Twitterfor even more information about
the album and go to tundig.
com slash calendar to learn moreabout the 366 day album calendar

(02:03:48):
that we put together that a lot ofpeople are listening to together.

Kyle (02:03:51):
Most importantly, by far though, please support your favorite
local record store, concert venueand, or especially bands by buying
merch, thanks for listening.

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