Episode 53: Ravi Shankar's "Three Ragas"

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kyle (00:00):
Today we're talking about Three Ragas by Ravi Shankar.

Cliff (00:03):
This will be one of those fun ones where we get to anxiously tiptoe
up to the precipice of trying to figureout how to talk about a thing that we
figured out was very important, eventhough we thought it was important before.
And then the more we learned aboutit, it became very important feeling.
And now that precipice feels likeit's 10 miles up, suspended in air.
Like that dude, astronaut guy from the RedBull Phoenix thing, where he just like,

(00:27):
was like, I'm in space, whoop, jumped out.
It's a very long way down take a videoof me I think this is going to feel a lot
like that But I think what's awesome aboutthis and me and you being friends and this
podcast in general Is a cool directionthat we can take when we approach really
complex music with a lot of history.

(00:47):
It's just Try to show up for it bepresent Practice listening to it if
we can and otherwise just respectthe fact that there's like A whole
dense ball of stuff to be discovered.
If you push into pretty muchanything we're gonna talk about for
however long this episode lasts.

Kyle (01:08):
Yeah.
It took every bit of 51 episodes tobe prepared with the philosophy that
like the knowledge around this album.
or the relationship with thisalbum doesn't end when we
put our thoughts to record.
It only begins in that moment.
It has not yet begun until wethink about it in a meaningful way.

(01:32):
And so today is day one ofmy real relationship with.
Ravi Shankar with Hindustanimusic with all the nearly myriad
branches that come outward from it.
My goal for today is just is tocoonoo my way through this thing.
It's just to do less.

(01:53):
The less you do, the more you do.
I want to not try to surf, just surf.
I want to skim over the topof the water with this one.
There, I know the first thing that I'mdoing after we get done with this season
is I'm revisiting the book about Robbiethat I started and I'm so fascinated by.
It's the first biography I'veread in a while that I think

(02:15):
I want to read multiple times.
There's a great saying in the beginningof the book that the author said in
the Ford, I came to realizing thatcapturing Ravi Shankar's entire life and
music into one book is to borrow DavidShepard's verdict on Brian Eno, like
folding a skyscraper into a suitcase.
let's pack light on this episode.

Cliff (02:37):
well said already.

Kyle (02:40):
Jesus Christ, man.
Where do you want to start?

Cliff (02:42):
I do think we can start, this will be fun.
We can start with probablywhat we're not gonna do.
Which will also give us a niceforeshadowing for, I think, the overall
story of Three Ragas, which we'lltouch lightly enough on to show all the
different offshoots of it, basically.
But, if people, for the most part,are generically aware of Ravi, it is

(03:06):
through the direct and dense impact onWestern music in the 60s and creates a
sort of view into Ravi came from, themusic before that, what all that looks
like, but it sort of starts and endswith the American perspective on the

(03:27):
impact of Indian music on rock music.
And that is only of a million validperspectives, but we'll definitely talk
about frankly some of the funny shithe said About meeting those people and
playing music at those festivals becausesome of it's hilarious but What I think
we can explore together in talking throughthis is how to approach this without a

(03:52):
myopic western mindset from the jump.
It doesn't mean that this Hero ToonDig episode is going to be the proper
equivalent or proxy for an actualstudy of this human being, much less,
uh, Indian classical music, Hindustanimusic, like, the sitar in general,
the concepts of Indian music, thetheo like, the theory of anything.

(04:15):
Like, we will only be able to tiptoeinto each little rabbit hole anyway.
But one thing we can try to do,I think, is what we've Me and you
have done in trying to approach thisalbum like we do the special weird
ones try to keep the most open mind.
You can listen for things Use somedifferent frameworks and approaches to

(04:37):
draw ideas But otherwise, I think we'rejust going to be able to talk about the
things that we learned to appreciatethat we weren't otherwise prepared for
by just having a passing awareness ofRobbie's impact in music, and how I
think that shifts the more you sincerelypush into what's actually happening with

(04:58):
music that you don't understand well.

Kyle (05:00):
I think one of my initial impressions that really surprised me
was how many cliches about Eastern musicand what is described as, you know, the
phenomenon of Orientalism like Easternstereotypes, positive and negative.
How, like how much of that wasimbued in my consciousness.
I'm at.
I didn't really realize it.

(05:22):
And in studying the stuff that likehe influenced in the West in that
very specific time period in the60s, it's like, Oh, a lot of those
cliches and media come from there.
And Some of it's kind of cool and alot of it kind of cheapens it, but
then like you can push too far in theopposite direction and revere it because

(05:46):
it's so exotic and different too.
So where I'd really like to land isjust like a sense of mindfulness and
appreciation for what it is and thatit is something really different.
Like that book that, We love thatwe've referenced over the years
that, um, every noise ever a bookwhere you're just studying different

(06:08):
dimensions of what makes music, music.
There are volumes of quotes by a widevariety of people, our hero, John Coltrane
on down who have Seen something markedlydifferent in the technical approach to
music and the philosophy of why and howthis music is made that is different from

(06:28):
a lot of other cultures but it has shadesof lots of other cultural traditions and
practices but a lot of it is like morefocused and disciplined and central to the
culture of the country that it comes from.
So there's a lot, there is alot to appreciate and unpack.
But I think like the first exerciseis to be like, what do I know?

(06:52):
What, like, what comes to mind when youthink of the sitar or of Ravi Shankar, if
you have a familiarity or of Eastern musicor India and just put all those thoughts
out on the table and try to clear yourhead of, of all of them as a Westerner
and start with a, A child's perspectiveand curiosity, it's been really

(07:17):
rewarding for me personally to do that.
And and so I would encourage youas a listener to do the same.
And if you're listening, I'm makingthe assumption that like, you love a
lot of music, you probably have somepassing familiarity with all this stuff.
you are not deeply studied on it.
Like if you're a deeply studiedHindustani expert or a musicologist

(07:40):
you're well past whatever this isthat we're doing here, Cliff and me.

Cliff (07:44):
Yes, please send us your podcast.

Kyle (07:47):
yeah, you've, you, your third eye is open and you've transcended
past the need for a podcast.
You simply transmitthoughts telepathically now.
So please feel free to do that orsend us a handwritten letter with
your thoughts and observations.

Cliff (08:00):
Yeah, and to, to drive that home or, or put a point on it, maybe if when
Kyle asks, what do you think of when youthink of sitar, if you thought of the
Beatles, vaguely, that is okay, we'regoing to put that on the table together.
But what we want you toknow is that that is.

(08:21):
That is a door that you now can walkthrough and there is a world on the,
there are worlds on the other side ofthat touch point into what happened.
And like, we will put that moment intoperspective, but even that moment In
kind of music history of, of the Beatlesusing this, even that sort of didn't

(08:43):
play out the way we all think that itdid or the way that it ends up being
told in retrospect and really speaks tothe complex relationship that Robbie's
influence would then have with themusic that he influenced because it
wasn't all intentional and I think byUs talking about the fundamental aspects

(09:06):
of what's happening in this music enoughto start to tune into it It will better
illuminate Why it became so fascinatingthat there are real differences of
opinion about Not just how music isplayed, but how music is experienced
and how music is positioned spiritually.

(09:26):
Like there is a very serious andheavy through line of some of the
music that we'll talk about here.
And I think what we can do best isapproach that with Inappropriate
reverence, you don't, you don't have tobelieve in a religious fervor in order to
understand the point that they are tryingto make or what they are trying to do

(09:48):
and entering into that a little bit, inmy opinion, is going to help illuminate.
Indian music in general, because the,the relationship to instruments, music,
sound, participation, audiences, liveperformances, everything is fundamentally
different than we have with it here.
And that only really came to thesurface after 10 or 15 years of

(10:11):
his influence on popular music.

Kyle (10:13):
So Stop me if you've heard this joke before.
Ravi Shankar walks into AbbeyRoad Studios November 7th, 1956.
About six years beforethe Beatles ever do.
is there any backstory that you thinkis helpful to tell Ravi's story and sort

(10:34):
of unpack his music and his influence?

Cliff (10:37):
Yep, so here's the first of the many rabbit holes that we're
gonna just stick toes into andpurposefully try to walk over because
there's a lot to say even here alone.
But I think probably the most importantcontext for this moment is he is already
a highly influential, well known Indianmusician by the time he's walking

(10:59):
into the studio to record what wouldbecome his western debut, Three Ragas
released in 1956, um, which it seemsto have recorded and then released, uh,
same year, but prior to this, he's notonly got a massive influence, like to
me, trying to explain this moment orthis context brings Fela Kuti to mind.

(11:22):
Like this whole episode is going to betelling you that we're not telling you 99.
99 percent of every interesting thing thatpossibly happened for this person just up
until this point in time, much less thewhole story of their life or narrative.
So similarly suffice it to say throughthe preceding decade, especially he

(11:45):
gained influence, um, became very wellknown for what he was doing and was.
You know, truly known as a masterwho had from childhood been
involved in Indian classical music.
Though, if I recall correctly, heactually started off dancing to it,
uh, with his brother as a family bit.

Kyle (12:02):
Yeah, and his brother and perhaps his father as well
thought he would be a dancer.
That would be the thingthat he was known for.
And While his family didn't have famousmusicians in it, like his dad had put
on theater in London and his brotherwas a super, super famous dancer.

(12:27):
Ravi, also danced, but he pickedup the sitar like around the age of
10 or so and would accompany someand started doing his own thing.
So, Definitely a Wunderkind situation,but it seems like, in the vein of Prince,
he started really young, was rabidlycurious they paint a really beautiful

(12:49):
picture in the book, Indian son of theplace where he grew up and how it fostered
creativity and oneness with nature.
Like, I don't want to over project, but Ijust couldn't help but get the sense over
and over reading about him that there waslike, he was sort of divined to be in this
role, like just the right combination ofpieces of stardust came together for this.

(13:15):
to grow into this figure thatwould take these musical ideas
the world over and like sort ofraise the vibrations of the world.
Because it's an extraordinarily tall task,but there's a paragraph in the beginning
of the book that sort of condenses thewhole almost Forrest Gumpy type story.
It into a short thing.

(13:35):
So I'm going to, I justwant to read it real quick.
Ravi also lived one of the 20thcentury's most extraordinary lives.
He had an uncanny habit ofbeing an eyewitness to historic
events all around the world.
He was born in India when the nationwas struggling to evict the British and.
India declared its independence fromthe British in 1947 after years of non
violent protests by Gandhi and others.

(13:57):
He was born in India when the nation wasstruggling to evict the British, toured
Weimar Germany as a child star justas Hitler was rising to power, danced
at Carnegie Hall, and partied at theCotton Club, met Clark Gable and Joan
Crawford in Hollywood, sang for Gandhi,and was blessed by India's great poet
Rabindranath Tagore all before he was 18.

(14:17):
Only then did he switch hisfocus from dance to music.
He came to national recognition atthe time of India's independence,
toured the Soviet Union at theheight of the Cold War, was invited
to America in 1956, thanks to theCIA, can't find enough details on
that particular thing, but that'sfascinating, and moved to California
just in time for the Summer of Love.

(14:38):
He shone a spotlight on Bangladesh'sliberation struggle, played inside the
Kremlin in the mix of a Glasnost, Andserved as a member of India's parliament.
So it's like hard to even conceptualizethe extent of his influence, you know?
And right around this time period,one thing that's really fascinating.
And I think you know, with Rihanna,we were trying to compare her to
the Michael Jackson's and whateverwe're not saying a bunch of facts

(15:01):
about Rihanna or Fela Kuti or.
Somebody else to like, becausesome sort of linearity is going
to make it more interesting.
It's still like wrap your armsaround the scale of a planet almost.
So like in 1952, he became thedirector of music at all India
radios, home services division, likethe national state radio, right?

(15:22):
His radio was exploding in the countryand he drove two big innovations with AIR.
First, he.
created the National Program ofMusic, which was a 90 minute weekly
show on Sunday evenings where oneclassical musician performed live.
And it was like a huge springboard.
for a lot of musicians tobecome household names in India.

(15:44):
And the second was the Vadya Varenda orthe National Orchestra which he curated
the musicians for and boldly startedincluding Western instruments like
the violin and the clarinet, um, whenthere's a pretty strict tradition of
only using Indian Eastern instruments.
I guess that's like if Taylor Swiftwas also The SVP of programming at I

(16:09):
heart media, like that kind of has noequivalent now because there's not really
a monoculture, but just think about theextent to which the art form was able
to pervade because he was not only apractitioner of the art form, but he was.
He was an entrepreneur helping tohe was always seeking to expand its

(16:32):
influence And you'll you know, you'llread time and again when you read
about Ravi Shankar He was takingtime to try to explain the music he
would foreground every performanceespecially in the West with introductions
about the forms of Hindustani music.
You don't know about this yet, but yourkids are going to love it sort of thing.

(16:53):
So it's really interesting that he wasalways really committed to like a bit
of the showmanship, but also he just,it really seemed like he wanted people
to know it and love it like he did.
And he, he took great pains todo that throughout his life.

Cliff (17:05):
Definitely.
And we may touch on this somemore as well, but even, even
simply becoming a master.
of a musical instrument in Indianculture represented a tremendous
amount of invested time and energy.
And there are multiplelayers to that as well.

(17:26):
That is sort of betrayed onceagain by our Western viewpoint
on how people become virtuosic.
Is that it?
Hey, cool.
Why not?
Yes, our podcast virtuosicit is, but Even now, right?
Like, our sort of extremelymodern experience of it
is like, non D type stuff.

(17:48):
Like, Oh, look at this child!
And like, okay, the child has beenable to consume so much information
and start doing the task like,repetitively on whatever instrument
that they are like, a natural role.
At five, six years old about something.
Right.
I literally, I've watched, I think it wasan eight or nine year old do a backflip

(18:12):
on their BMX bike in a concrete skatepark on their first try today, just like
things just kind of like pop up to you onthe internet now and like mastery has sort
of become a more dialed in and particularthing inside of our culture, I think,
or at least our conceptualization of it.
Whereas, again, this is a sweepingstatement, but generally speaking,

(18:34):
Hindustani music, Indian music,becoming good at that classical music
not only required you being generallygood at the instruments and memorizing
a lot, which we'll talk about.
the sitar alone is an instrumentthat you play while seated for hours.
Like, I promise you that if you'venever tried to sit in the same position

(18:58):
for hours at a time, it is not easy.
Especially on the floor, especially withan instrument that you've got to play.
And I think we'll, we'll hopefullyreference this a couple of times,
but there's a, a really great videofrom Emory university, actually shout
out local that we found on YouTubethat is just called understanding

(19:19):
the basics of Indian Raga music.
And it's got this.
It's a very dense introduction to, uh,raga in general, but also sitar and some
of the experiences of these performances.
And one of the things that getsmentioned in there is that when you're
learning sitar, you are literallysitting for five or six hours at a time.
As a session, like thatis what you're doing.

(19:42):
So it's a little bit more back in the veinof the sort of classical children, just
like repeating tasks every day until theysort of spiritually connect with it or
spiritually disconnect with it and moveon to something different in their life.
And just like, clearly Robbie hada deep connection to whatever this

(20:02):
thing was throughout his life.
In starting in dance is not asunusual again, as it might seem like
from our perspective, because of howintertwined dance vocals and instruments
are in this type of music at all.
So when we say that, you know, he'swalking into Abbey road in 1956 and

(20:26):
prior to that had done a whole bunch ofstuff that was just mentioned in that
blurb that you read, like the density of

Kyle (20:33):
20, almost 25 years worth, like borderline a quarter century
of experience in this field.

Cliff (20:40):
Yeah.
Yeah, and this is his first recordedrecord that the West could get.
That's kind of why we're starting here.
This is not a this is the best RaviShankar album for you to listen to.
That's not really theperspective we're taking here.
This exploded in terms of influencebecause it was the fastest he could

(21:03):
get here in terms of recordings.
Uh, and up until this pointhad been driven by performance.
So, so grand and popular that likehis knowledge of his playing ability
and performances were spreadingthroughout the world again, at
a time before recorded music wasjust being sent around the world.

(21:26):
So like this becomes this.
Kind of nuclear moment where he has builtup all this other stuff in a totally
different part of the world and finallycomes here and only, basically dorks know
about him at this point, but the dorksare going nuts, To be able to get his

(21:47):
recording in to uh, to be able to get downwhich we'll talk some more about as well.
Just Three ragas is this is highlyimprovisational music, but these aren't
like songs that he wrote like that'sanother incorrect way to look at it and
so like thinking about this recordingexisting in 1956 and then We'll even

(22:09):
mention just a smattering of all of theways this particular record started You
Changing the way that musicians thoughtabout their own music, uh, and started
showing up in myriad ways throughouta lot of different places, um, but
especially both jazz and classic rock.
It's just, it's hard to express howmuch was happening in this moment

(22:29):
for a simple mono recording of, ahandful of people performing Indian
classical music, effectively, exercises.

Kyle (22:39):
Yeah, and condensed for Western audiences.
I mean, really, for the formatof being pressed to wax.
But to your point about the sittingdown, like these performances in
India would last four or five,six hours, sometimes much longer,
depending on audience context.
And, you know, I think one of the mainthings that we've learned is the like

(23:01):
signal and receiver importance of context.
And it's like sort of taken on muchdeeper meaning and studying this.
So I know we'll talk more aboutthat, but not only was this his first
recording for an LP and like LP isstill a relatively new format, right?
Like 78s were popular, like acetatesand that sort of thing, mid fifties.

(23:24):
But like L long playing records of thislength were still a relatively novel
thing in the grand scheme of things.
So not only was it his first LP recording,it was the second Indian classical music
outing ever for the LP format period.
The first being Ali Akbar's.

(23:46):
So just, it's a little hard to parsethat with how sort of I'm the president,
if I say the word sitar, you can heara sitar in your mind now, and you can
visualize something almost certainly.
So just the, how far we've comewith the cultural transmission in a
relatively short time in human historyis like kind of mind blowing to me.

Cliff (24:09):
Yep.
So maybe before we press further into someof the pertinent details about Dhriragas
specifically, Sitar and a few other thingsabout the theory, which I think will help.
Let's maybe talk about that firstexercise, for folks listening, we in this
new Lowercase s season of toondig oneof the things that we're doing is being

(24:32):
really intentional about helping youapproach music in really specific ways
so that it is not feeling intimidatingor Like it's like it's something you're
not clicking with or something likeThere are several different ways you
can approach it and get things backout of it, depending on your posture
and your way of dealing with music.
One of the ways that we do that, Ithink is actually a good place to

(24:55):
start and reflect on before we thentalk about like, what happens when
you start to understand more aboutwhat's actually happening in the music.
So starting with that, one of thequestions we ask in Kyle, I'd love to
hear from you, like what surprised you?
When you first started listeningto this record, like what stands
out when you're not trying tofigure out what should stand out.

Kyle (25:18):
Familiarity and time, I would say, are the two things.
The first.
I've been listening to Ragas for a long,long time just because I have a childlike
fascination with the sounds of the sitarand the tempura, but like now, 51 tune
digs later like nearly every musical themeor idea that I've ever liked or any way

(25:43):
that I've had my mind expanded by thinkingfor a long time about it on this podcast
lives in some way in these recordings.
I made connections to Erykah Badu,and to Kan, and to Chelsea Wolfe, and
to, uh, Mono, and I was just thinking,like, Björk, and Queens of the Stone

(26:04):
Age, and I was thinking about every onelittle nugget that has preoccupied me
as we've gotten into a conversation.
Those ideas washed over me in waves, as Ilistened, and like, sort of contemplated
the whole of the musical universe.
Because it is at once so technicallycomplex and like, he's a real good picker.
You know, like, you, you listenand you're like, damn, this dude's

(26:27):
shreddin But also on, on thewhole, it sort of clears your mind.
Like it can be a little bit ofa mind eraser if you let it.
So it's real easy to get present with it.
So I just, the influence onso many other things directly
or indirectly was very clear.
So I'm very thankful to youand your introduction to.

(26:48):
the band Sun, to me, for like teachingme how to even sustain my focus over
greater increments of time to beable to think bigger thoughts and
walk through bigger webs with it.
But the influence was clear andsort of a like, aha, you know,
sitting outside taking a breathof fresh air type of clear.

(27:08):
So running it through the prism of musicthat I already like and appreciate.
There was a lot to love.
And then with time.
The first track, the A side of therecord, Raga Job, I'm sorry that I'm
not going to be able to pronounceany of the three ragas appropriately.
It's 28 minutes.
And like you said,

Cliff (27:28):
it's a prog track.
Yep.
Yep.

Kyle (27:37):
you prime for.
Some of the like first minutesounds and also like Fela, I,
I remember you mentioning the
of water no good enemy and howit was like a, like a primer.
I mean, the start of Raga Jog is, islike a little bit of a bell to be like,

(28:00):
Oh, we're back around in the cycles.
And it, and it just happensfaster and faster, but in a good
way, not in a like time keepson slipping, slipping, slipping.
And I like, I'm more in control oftime when I listen to these recordings.
And I think part of that comes from RagaJog starting on such a, like lively,

(28:21):
almost bluesy Note in like, we can, wecan talk about why it reads as bluesy.
But also I can like see the Coltraneinspiration in that one in particular,
because Ravi like goes to climbthe mountain a couple of times.
And when you get past the 20 minutemark in that he just does some what
I think is objectively cool shit.

(28:42):
There's a halftime moment witha tablas and the, the rhythm.
The sort of uneven rhythm around thatpassage at the 21 minute mark reminds
me of dope smoker by sleep and howit felt like walking on, on the sand.
And then about a minute later there'ssome really cool up feels like up

(29:03):
picking on a guitar, like punkyplucks, like descending note plucks,
and it just gives it some cool oomph.
It's like where I have alwaysthought of this music is.
Sort of like mystical and peacefuland, you know, had, had those sort
of stereotypical attributions.
Like the shit's got some attitude, man.
You know, it's got a little bitof a posture to it, which is cool.

(29:25):
So I just noticed lots of differentdimensions immediately, but it's a huge
space to get up and walk around in.
And like, you know, like Bjerg said,it's, it's a massive emotional landscape

Cliff (29:35):
Yeah, that last 10 minutes of the first track really builds to the degree
that around I think 26 and a half minutesand like it's if you dropped directly
into that track by then you'd thinkit was electronic loops Like he starts
playing so fast and all of the all theresonant and sympathetic strings are

(29:57):
going so quickly and the harmonics areso tight with however He's playing it.
I mean it for real is starting tosound like a computer And this is a
legitimately just live ass recordingof someone playing sitar like straight
through you know for this whole session,so The way that dynamics appear, if you

(30:19):
can hang on long enough to wait for thedynamics to get noticeable it'll really
surprise you and kind of blow you away.
But yeah, there's a whole arc tothat half hour long track for sure.

Kyle (30:31):
and you mentioned before this, like speaking of dynamics, percussion.
where that's a thing so often in westernmusic that we love percussion and rhythm.
It's like not there forlong swaths of this.
And for me as a drum lover, it's so sparsethat like I started listening for the

(30:52):
drop and I guess we're gonna, I guesswe're gonna use some electronic music.
terminology.
It doesn't appear in the firstraga until 13 minutes in.
And then when it does, it's verylike, uh, it announces itself.
So it's, it's very interesting thatthere are, they allow the players allow
each other to speak for long periods oftime before they join the conversation

(31:17):
or move the conversation forward.
Mm

Cliff (31:19):
There are a lot of aspects that are analogous in our Western
understanding to jazz, which I think is.
both unintentional and then, youknow, maybe there's some intentional
influence points, but yeah, tothat end, like they are not worried
about letting another player takea lead for a long period of time.

(31:41):
There is no rush to finish up12 bars or anything like that.
There's really no concepts of that.
And yeah I was surprised howoften I would go, wait, When did
the drums drop back out though?
Like wait, when did that happen?
And like I kept noticing that it wouldjust kind of shuffle in and out in

(32:02):
a way that is not representative ofour general relationship to rhythm in
western music where it's like Punctuatedalmost literally whereas here, this is
much more complimentary and the rhythmis internal to what's being done and
has a lot more to do with drone thanit does BPM, which is fascinating.

(32:26):
I do think even on a blind firstlisten through, so to speak.
I think it's entertaining for anyonewho's listened to any broad spectrum
of music because you just, you get thatfull range of little 30 second vignettes
of, Oh, that sounds like something else.

(32:48):
Oh, I've heard that before.
Oh, I know I know that feeling.
And like, to your point, you can bringsitar to mind immediately, and it's
not that that you're thinking of,but yet, you're sitting there hearing
the sitar play for long enough thatyou can catch these little moments
of like, Oh, that actually soundslike a thing that you would then
realize was made 15 years later.

(33:09):
On a guitar by somebody who it turnsout was very interested in this
record and it's like, okay I've seena little bit more of the matrix today.
Like i'm understanding a little bit moreof what's happening and all at once And
maybe this is me, but all at once itsort of starts to make you Happy and sad,

(33:30):
like, I'm happy to feel the connectionbetween musical cultures and influence
and learning from one another and thethings that make the blues great, right?
The theft that is moral and appropriateof, uh, iterating on each other's
music and learning from one another.
And yet, on the other hand, thereis this kind of immediate sinking

(33:52):
feeling of like, boy, I bet wedidn't do that right, though.
I bet we didn't totally handle thatwith the best taste we could have.
And all those things end up beingtrue on further investigation.
But Yeah there's something deepthat you can connect with, I think,
pretty quickly because you start torealize how much is going on here
that you weren't aware of before.

Kyle (34:12):
How would you recommend people contextualize this record?
When, where, how, why do you put it on?

Cliff (34:19):
I think this one would be fun to experiment with because it's going to
be mildly inaccessible for some people.
And in that sense, when you'reexperiencing that, I think there are a
couple of basically opposites to try.
I love to recommend music that Ithink actually works for meditation.

(34:41):
Uh, I think this is one that can.
I would also fully understand if, Afamiliarity or lack of familiarity
with this music would instead bedistracting, and that would be difficult.
In that case I'd try an even morepassive way of listening to it.
I don't think there's anythingdisrespectful to putting Ravi

(35:02):
on in the background while you,like, make breakfast or some shit.
I The more that I put this musicon in a bunch of different contexts
through every speaker and set ofheadphones and whatever that I owned,
the more it no longer felt odd to belistening to it anytime I wanted to.
And it started to click in differently.

(35:25):
In a way that I think otherpeople should experiment with.

Kyle (35:28):
And you say meditation, and that probably brings one
particular image to mind.
You know, the sitting on the floorcross legged with your eyes closed,
but this type of music Good, bad, orotherwise, I think is associated with
the practice of trying to achievegreater mindfulness for a reason.
Like the way this music spreadsitself out and sustains drones around

(35:52):
an anchor point lends itself to thesame sort of practice with your mind.
So I think it is good for both.
aimless thinking, like you can leave it ata low volume to minimize the distracting
bit it's better than the air quote silenceof the room, or in a very disciplined

(36:12):
fashion, trying to hold your focus on athing longer, in particular your breath
to start, like I think it's a greatrecord, an entry point for breath work,
to just work with the flow of the record.
to keep yourself focused on your breathingand become more circular with it.

(36:34):
My favorite meditation because I can't sitstill is a long walk and it accompanies
a walk in nature so beautifully and Iknow it cheapens nature a little to bring
airpods or human vibrations or whatever.
But I think this is about as goodas it gets for the man made stuff
for just going and noticing.

(36:56):
And achieving greater mindfulness bythinking about birds, thinking about
the way the air smells, looking at thedifferent greens of the trees, and just
finding more of your place in the world.
So meditation in whatever form thatmay look like for you, becoming more
mindful of who you are in your body,in this place, in this space, in time.

(37:16):
the other thing that I think isinteresting contextually is like, if
you want to play an instrument or youlike to play, or you just want to like,
think about music, like you like musictheory stuff, but you don't, really know.
Hindustani is a world unto itself.
It's got a lot of terminology thatgives a kind of a high barrier
to entry for westerners like me.

(37:38):
But seeing, there are very smart peoplewho are finding ways to use the vocabulary
of this music to like make playing andthinking about playing more interesting.
I know, like, I love and have sent youa number of Matt Sweeney's Guitar Moves
series, and one of my favorite onesis Blake Mills and how he has learned.

(38:02):
He's taken the best of what he doeson guitar, but he really likes the
sound of the sitar, and he's foundunique ways to try to emulate the,
like, unique setup of the instrumentrelative to a six string guitar.
This album, this music is very instrumentforward, you know, like these people
pick these instruments and theseinstruments seem to kind of pick them too.

(38:22):
And they each have a role in theplaying and So just like thinking about
instruments, if you were just, if you justsort of want to geek on that the same way
that you would do with saxophone, maybe,and think about, you know, Coltrane versus
Jerry Rafferty versus whatever, whateverthere, there is just a whatever context

(38:44):
makes you think about the music itself onthe train or, or whatever this is a fun
thing to do to just think about, musicbecause it it is probably so different
than a great deal of what you listen toeven if it is stuff like jazz or stuff
that's very akin to or influenced by this

Cliff (39:00):
Hell yeah.
Dude, let's just Let's use thatas the rocket ship that okay.
Let's then talk about at a kind of highlevel what Indian classical music ragas
Sitar a couple other instruments likelet's just hit some points on that to give
a quick kind of intro To what's happeningso that you can focus on it because I

(39:24):
do think First of all, we're I thinkwe're in total agreement If you stopped
listening to us right here, and you knewnothing else about this record, or Ravi,
or anything, you can get a lot out ofthis record for the rest of your life.
You don't need to think anything furtherabout it in order to get more out of it,

(39:45):
because something important is happeningin it, and you will attune to it.
If you're interested in listeningto it, like something is being
done here that is has connected andenlivened musicians across the world.
Like it will catch you too, if you justlisten to it and let it bring you things.
So that's cool.

(40:06):
I do think though, if you're interestedin like, okay, I want to listen
to this instrument, like you'resuggesting, Kyle, I want to follow it.
What?
Am I following when I'm trying to followone of these instruments because their
whole approach to the way that theysound is fundamentally different than

(40:27):
Western instruments for the most part?
And secondly, their musical approach.
In theoretical approachis analogous to ours.
I don't think it's either better orworse, but it is different enough with
enough nuance to where if you wantto understand what is happening you
have to know just a little bit moreabout what is different about it.

(40:50):
And I think.
You know, hopefully you feel the same,but not that much time and energy, uh,
was invested in order to understandenough to start, for instance, getting
what a sitar sounds like and why.
And I think that couldbe helpful to folks.

Kyle (41:06):
i Yeah, I yes, to the physical instruments part.
I talk all the time to my wife about westumbled on a Howlstuffworks episode,
or how it's made about the building ofa pedal steel, and that thing is such
a beautiful and intricate work of humanmastery and craft that I think about

(41:30):
that shit, like, once, once a week.
I'm

Cliff (41:34):
That's your Roman Empire!

Kyle (41:35):
It's my, yeah, Petal Steel is 100 percent my Roman Empire.
but the sitar is like very similar in,it's not as complex as a, as a pedal
steel, I would say, but they're, I'd saythey're like cousins in, in a lot of ways.
So I think, yes, the instrumentsthemselves, but also to your
point about the, the philosophyand theory, there are things.

(42:00):
That just like hadn't even occurredto me about how to produce or consume
music in some of the ways that theythink about like some of the traditions
especially in particular i'm thinkinglike certain ragas are intended to be
played at certain times of day or forcertain purposes like waking or ending

(42:20):
the day and that is a recognized thingabout a raga generally And that is That's
like Legend of Zelda y to me, you know?
Like, you play the ocarina andit does a different thing during
the day than it does at night.
And I don't mean that flippantly,I mean, like, that, that sparks
such a deep sense of wonder in me.

(42:42):
It's like, Well, yeah, I mean, ofcourse you could play, you know, some
playlists are better for morning orlunchtime drive or, or nighttime party
or whatever, but like specific thingsbeing devoted to specific purposes.
It's like very, gives me a thrill.

Cliff (42:59):
makes you feel like it's possible that people once actually felt the way
about music that me and you do on anormal basis like wait a minute there was
a culturally embedded thing that lastedfor generations and persists to this
day where musical exercises and Refrainsare understood to represent feelings

(43:20):
and times of day that is That's the

Kyle (43:23):
I mean, I feel like a psycho most of the time when I say, you know, like music
guides my daily life, like everythingI know about how to be a decent human.
I've learned from musiclike that's, that's here.
That's all here normalized.
And so it, I guess you're right.
It does give me a comfort in that way.

Cliff (43:42):
That's nice to find the silver lining.
You only have to lookacross history to find some.

Kyle (43:47):
And the literal planet.

Cliff (43:50):
think a few quick hits on what is distinct about So I'm just
Indian classical music in generalfrom a common western understanding
of music that I think will get folksa good portion of the way there.
And as always, there, this isanother branching off point.

(44:11):
If you want to learn more, go learn more.
This is the introduction, myfriend, okay, but it's cool to like,
there's a depth of understanding.
I know we've said it, but like,there's a depth of understanding
about this record that comes fromunderstanding what is being done.
Inside or what is shaping theimprovisation that's happening because

(44:33):
it's both highly improvisationaland highly structured All at one
time and it's a very differentframework than we usually use.
So first ragas in general arelike a generic Thing inside of
the music like three raga is aliteral, there's three of them.
It's these which are like, that'sa classical grouping of them.

(44:53):
But ragas are a thing in and of their own.
Uh, and they're basically likemelodic frameworks or scales that
sort of fill out the foundation ofhow Indian classical music works.
for joining us.
But they differ from a traditionalscale or in guitars like modes and
things like that They differ from thatin a number of ways But one of them is

(45:16):
like they have unique sets of ascendingand descending notes They often have
specific repeated melodic patternsPatterns, so it's not just finding all
the notes in a scale in a given octave.
It's particular patterns that getrepeated as part of a practice.
And then those things that we justtalked about, those are the things

(45:37):
that are associated with moodsand emotions and times of day.
So that's that's a whole thingthat we're not really used to
thinking about at all, that.
Starts to unlock a little bit more of it.
So it's and I know that this won'tdescribe it the right way, but it's
a bit like a combination of scales onan instrument with like rudiments on a

(46:00):
drum where you're practicing a set ofbasically drills that are not only good
for anybody, uh, and can be, played atdifferent tempos or different levels of
difficulty, but on top of it, they are.
Like rudiments are a generic thing thatoften come in common groupings that

(46:21):
drummers or percussionists are justGenerally aware of and can often just
start playing together because theyunderstand enough about it So it's similar
to that as well in the sense that it'slike a cultural thing inside of particular
Instruments or particular music so ragasare that framework scale rudiment type

(46:42):
thing That sits Inside of or sort of, uh,in output of the larger Indian classical
music, which has, you know, seven basicnotes with five interspersed half notes.
So they have a 12 note scale as well.
I could literally.
I will not do a dorky podcast aboutthis particular aspect of it, but

(47:03):
I will not the the decisions abouthow musical frequencies, like how a
note sounds, like what frequency anote is at is has generally been a
historically cultural decision aboutthe functionality of performing music.
Generally speaking, the way thatwe tune instruments in the West,

(47:27):
especially, stems from our desireto be able to play in multiple keys
inside of the same performance.
And so we can't tune the instrumentsto a particular key if we want to
be able to play different keys.
So we actually have adifferent mathematical system
for how our notes work.

Kyle (47:46):
This is your Roman empire a little bit.

Cliff (47:49):
Oh, oh, buddy.
Oh, yes.

Kyle (47:52):
I remember that time you gave the history of metal talk and you talked
about the tritone for like a hot minute.

Cliff (47:58):
Yes.

Kyle (47:59):
is that.

Cliff (48:00):
Yes.
Why your great great great grandparentsthought the tritone was evil and
would bring Satan to the fore.

Kyle (48:07):
Number three may shock you.

Cliff (48:10):
And it's that they were dumb.
Sorry.
so, but okay.
So yes, like in the Western form of it,our 12 note scale is effectively like
a ratio system so that no matter whatkey you're playing in, the notes are
equal distances apart from one another.
Okay.
So that it sounds approximatelyright, but the little fun takeaway

(48:34):
from this moment is like effectivelylike Western music, like the notes
are not on pitch pretty much ever.
They're not in on actualpitch for what we're thinking
that they're supposed to be.
So differently from that is theidea that you're tuning instruments
directly to a particular key.
That is what is happening in Indianclassical music and in a lot of other.

(48:58):
Music with other forms ofinstruments from the past.
Um, but that is important becauseThat means not only is a particular
key being chosen, but the key isnot anchored to you've probably
heard of 440 Hz before, which isthe way that we center our tuning.
So, like, that's not a thing either.

(49:19):
So, the key is sort of a relative thing.
The root of said keycould also be decided.
The space between the notes in thescale could also potentially change,
which is not a thing that we do.
There, there's a ton more to it forsure, but I think just that kind of
basic understanding of like the shapeyou're looking at geometrically looks

(49:41):
similar enough if you step back fromit, but if you get really close and
sort of look inside of it, it's avery different way Kind of network
of how things connect to one another.
And so hopefully that is, that's honestto God, my best fucking pitch for that's
why you should listen to these peopleplaying a musical scale for an hour.

(50:04):
Cause there's like so much insideof it and their relationship to
these musical frameworks and scales.
are themselves that these providea framework for improvisation,
which is most of what we're hearinginside of this record to begin with.
How

Kyle (50:22):
just touched on, you just touched on something.
Great.
You, you pass.
No, no firing squad for you today.
uh, you made me realize just now thatnot only do I like to listen to, I
guess, the fretwork for an hour andthinking about the music itself and

(50:43):
like, why does it sound different?
than other things, but also I likehearing people talk about this music
and, and this sort of approach,you know, like I could do that for
as long as I could listen to it.
And I say that as someone who hateshaving it explained to me you in the Frank
Ocean episode, I know I've referencedthis before you use the, like turning

(51:06):
the lights on in space mountain thing.
Like that's That's my ick, bro.
So we have my Roman empire and my ickdocumented in the Ravi Shankar episode.
But like with this, it's so fascinatingand it's so bountiful and it goes right
up to the present moment where thereare scores of Westerners obsessed with

(51:27):
King Gizzard and their commitment tointer tonality and micro tonality and
like, who am I to talk about that shit?
I don't play the guitar.
but it's really fascinating to me.
Hmm That they've like gone out and madecustom instruments in order to be able
to do this thing, but it comes fromlike, if you look at a map, you do a

(51:50):
heat map from the Indian subcontinenton down Southeast to the aboriginal
people of Australia and New Zealand onup to the practitioners in Japan there,
there's that thing in, in what wouldbroadly be regarded as Eastern music
with stuff like microtonality and thefact that they have specific ascent and

(52:12):
descent sequences, like they have movesrelative to all this stuff is fascinating.
It's just even if you're like me andyou don't know how to apply that science
for a really long time, it just startsto color the way you think about all
the music that you're listening toand what is or isn't happening in it
relative to this new knowledge that youare now wearing like a cloak, you know?

Cliff (52:39):
100%.
So, I think one more appropriate adornmentto said cloak Is a quick explanation
of the instruments that are being usedhere to that end again, we will we
will once again verbalize we are goingto briefly say a thing that otherwise
With the removal of constraints Iwould manically talk about for hours.

(53:02):
so, just Know that that is whatis going through my heart mind and
body at this moment in time however,specifically the sitar is Once you
start to like understand what ishappening on that instrument the sound
of it is it speaks to you differently

Kyle (53:18):
It's a thing of beauty.
Like it is truly a marvelof human invention.

Cliff (53:23):
yeah And so I think there's a key detail in here and before I kind
of describe all these instruments Ithink one note that was helpful, that
I learned in this process was for themost part Hindustani classical music
is vocal centric and so a lot of themusical forms and therefore how the

(53:47):
instruments are played and how theysound are themselves vocal centric.
And I think that starts to draw outinteresting characteristics of why
particular instruments get chosen andhow they get played, but I think that
is a bit of why I think you can hearthe influence of that vocal centricity

(54:10):
in how sitar is played at all.
So I think bringing that into the momenthelps you hear a little bit of how it's
being used and what the like traditionof it is but specifically Okay, so just
let's base folks on something that theyprobably know right, standard american
ish guitar As we know it now or westernguitar six strings, you know that can flex

(54:35):
down to four It's a bass guitar flexesup to seven eight strings or more if
you're a metal influencer on tiktok so butgenerally speaking those are that's the
like centricity of our strings and those

Kyle (54:48):
Sing, single digies.

Cliff (54:51):
Yeah, and those are, those are tuned to generally speaking, a
common set of like note patterns,like standard tuning, drop
tuning, open tuning, whatever.
We have a handful of these types ofthings, but again, generally speaking,
somewhere between four and eight strings.
So sitar is 18 to 21 strings, and sixto seven of those strings are played.

(55:18):
The other ones are for resonance andlike this it a mo, this is a moment for
sure where it's like, if you alreadyknow, this is gonna be like, okay, thanks
for saying it really slowly, I get it.
But if you've never heard this before,like I think this is killer because
this is like, I, I know I've heard thisstory from other people before, but
this is the type of thing you do getwhen you go to music school, even for a

(55:39):
bit, if you've ever had a music teacher.
that wants to teach you about resonance.
One of the little fun tricks that theydo is in a certain type of piano, you
can like yell into the piano and pressthe sustain pedal and your voice will
be reflected through the reverberationsof the piano hammer string thingies.

(56:02):
They're not strings.
I don't know how to describe any of that.
What is happening on the insideof the piano starts to reverberate
with the tonality of the, like whatyou put in it through your voice.
And You start to get this understandingof like, okay instruments work in a
particular way like a guitar is not justi'm playing a string and string makes This

(56:24):
note it is you are playing a string whichvibrates at a particular frequency Which
resonates inside the body of the guitarwhich gets picked up by the pickup and
transmitted outwards so like the body, theinstrument, the shape, everything that's
happening on your instrument that we canjust kind of take for granted because
you just pull it up and start playinga fucking John Denver song or whatever

(56:45):
is like that betrays the complexity ofwhat can happen in an instrument and
a sitar takes you all the way to theother side of it to the degree that most
of the strings on this instrument arenow not things you're controlling but
are simply responding to what you'replaying and how you're playing it.
And based on how you've tuned them inadvance, they will respond in a specific

(57:08):
way to what you play and how you play it.
So there's like, playing and meta playing,and then there's the stuff that happens
that you may or may not be able to expectin the meantime that's just gonna come up
as a result of how you decide to do stuff.
It's wild.
You're smiling at me like I justsuccessfully, manically talked
about a sitar for like five

Kyle (57:28):
it's so extra as an instrument.
you're forced to reckon withthe, the miracle of music.
Like it, it really Manifestwhat a miracle it is that we can
like harness the lightning andwe have real process around it.
It's like a factory for thesublime, a little, not the band

(57:51):
sublime for the supply, youknow, the things in the universe.
Yeah, it makes you a little manicbecause it just like, it fills you
with the Holy spirit, so to speak.
And I don't know what asitar or pedal steel is like.
about as perfect cup of coffeeas you can get in this world
when it comes to instruments.

Cliff (58:11):
yeah, and I think just knowing that generally about sitar and how
we talked about it and the fact thatthere's like strings that are designed
to resonate will If you're curious,help you notice things differently in
instruments that you're used to, likebanjos can have sympathetic strings.

(58:32):
That's probably why you've heard abanjo sound that reminds you sitar.
There are these little things youstart to learn and it's like, okay,
so we're all just in a big souptogether learning from one another.
And every now and then aninstrument comes along like this,
it's like, Oh, that sounds crazy.
And like the, but it's,it's the good crazy.

(58:54):
It's the kind of crazy that makes everyWestern musician in the sixties, as
we'll talk about, go absolutely bananasand be like, how do, like, I'm already
bored with guitar because I just heardthis thing and now I need it for my
guitar to sound like this thing that has.
10 times the amount ofstrings and complexity to it.

(59:15):
There's something really coolabout that instrument And it's then
backed by Some simpler instruments.
Okay, the Tabla is just, it's hand drums.
That's not to oversimplify the playingof it, which, on which there is very
incredible musicianship on this record.
So not downplaying it at all,just that particular instrument

(59:38):
is a bit more straightforward.
There's definitely cultural depth to it.
But we've already talked aboutprobably the most interesting
aspect of that instrument here.
Is how judiciously it is used compared tohow we're used to rhythmic instruments.
And then Tambora is.
visually speaking, something thatwe might think of more like a bass

(01:00:00):
guitar in the sense that it's goingto play longer, steadier notes that
are perhaps more aligned with rhythm.
But specifically in this type of music,like this is, it's doing something
particular and it's intended tohave a droning effect, not provide

(01:00:22):
a rhythmic basis for the melody.
That's being played.
And I think you can hear that bothin the intention of how it's played,
but then like this instrumentitself is, has far less strings.
I think we're just looking at four atthis point, yeah, tuned to specific
notes within that scale that's chosen.
But it's creating ambience.

(01:00:44):
It's your, you know, musical nagchampa which gives me quite a bit of
respect for someone who's playing it.
Cause like, that's a real vibe.
You're connected to a frequencyplaying this instrument for RGAs
that are lasting half an hour.
Like that's something different.

Kyle (01:01:01):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Setting the room tone forfive hours, six hours.
But knowing that you're puttingthe vibe, you were quite literally
putting the vibration in, intothe space for the whole time.
You know, you are the basis of thething, which Has a bit of a Western
equivalent in the base, like sortof bringing the, the rhythm to drive

(01:01:23):
the more narrative action forward.
But I would be remiss if I didn'tshout out like the ZZ Top of this
particular set of recordings.
It's three men who make as mydad would say make a lot of
racket for just three fellas.
So Ravi obviously playing the sitar,Chaturlal playing the tabla, and

(01:01:45):
in his short life was a player ofsome renown on the instrument, and
sort of in some ways did for tablawhat, what Ravi did for sitar.
He was a, like a prominent influentialplayer, and Prajatsin on the
So thank, thank you gentlemenfor your cosmic contributions.

Cliff (01:02:04):
Yes, indeed.
So I thought also, like we could touchreally quickly on the and I don't wanna
overthink this, but the, the sort ofunderlying meaning or associated concepts
with the three raagas really quickly.
And then we can talk about our secondexercise that we recommend, which
is like, you know, the first one wediscussed was sort of how does it hit

(01:02:27):
you when you're not thinking about ittoo hard, but now we're talking about,
okay, you've learned a thing or two.
What are some things you cankind of focus and isolate on?
So let's hit that.
And then we can, we can definitelytalk about the way that this played
out culturally from here and ram peopleup to learning more if they want.
So the first, so Raga Jog, Raga Jog,however it is that we want to accidentally

(01:02:51):
mispronounce it, we're doing our best.
But, so like we mentioned, they'relike associated culturally with
times of day and moods and stuff.
So this one is an evening Raga thatexpresses the yearning of a longing soul.
And like, I just want to put apoint on what I just said, which.

(01:03:11):
That was a quote from somebody elseabout the actual meaning of this kind
of culturally and as word, but like,okay, we have built up to this point
that what is being played in a raga iseffectively like a musical framework
or scale or whatever that is creatinga foundation for further improvisation,
but the improvisation is within.

(01:03:32):
The raga itself.
So like this thing that we just described,which is very based in a very specific
framework is itself for the evening.
Try to accept that as a truth withoutputting it through the filter of like,
does it make sense to me that this thingcould be represented by the evening

(01:03:55):
or by the yearning of a longing soul?
Like just.
I don't know, I, I hope you can justlike, swallow that eat, like, especially
the first two have a particular meaning,the third one is a little bit more
of like a musical exercise, but like,if you can just sort of say, okay, I
believe that, I think it helps you toframe up the next time you listen to it.

Kyle (01:04:16):
Yeah, and it I, you know, I don't want to assign too much undue symbolism,
but knowing that this was the sortof recorded introduction to Western
audiences for Ravi and for this typeof music, knowing that it's typically
played in the late evening, 9 p.
m.
to midnight, There's a great quote fromthat same source, Arun Singh, talking

(01:04:41):
about this Raga, saying, you know, Jogintegrates the Atman, the soul, with the
Paramatman, or divine reality, unifyingthe previous day to the coming day.
So it's about like transitionsor linkages or thresholds.
A person can take in this divinecosmic power before morning to
remain full of life during the day.

(01:05:03):
So.
Starting with a bit of a transition, butalso introducing the West to the East with
placing them at a threshold musically inthis type of music and also introducing
some things that might be fairly familiarto their ears or their sensibilities.

(01:05:24):
in that it has some pentatonic to it.
That same source also mentions itomits the second and sixth intervals,
making it pentatonic in nature.
So, you know, there's a bit ofnighttime is the right time, evening
blues which was a hugely popularthing by this time in, um, the U.
S.
and the U.
K.

Cliff (01:05:45):
I'm glad you mentioned that about the pentatonic bit.
I don't have more to say about it, otherthan just like, if something in your dorky
musical nature has come alive listeningto us try to poorly explain some of these
concepts what Kyle just mentioned is oneof a million little Journeys for your
escape pod into space, like the fact thatthis is a pentatonic scale that is alike,

(01:06:08):
but different from our scale introducesthe thing that makes you feel or think
of blues while you're listening to it.
And like that, it's, it's.
Something about that is really cool whenyou lean into it and it will help you
not only hear this song differently,but then you will hear blues differently
now too, which is really cool.

(01:06:31):
So, The second Raga is, this one'syour, this one's your morning deal.
You're 6am to 9am.
Uh, I saw in at least one placethe kind of literal translation
of this one is morning devotional.
Raga Ahir, Bharav.
One example, it's hard to factcheck a few of these things.
So, I'm going with the vibe of thisfeels directionally appropriate to

(01:06:57):
repeat because I saw it somewhere.
But, this raga was fabled to mimicthe ringing of cowbells at dawn.
Like this idea of like six, six tonine, that's the sun has come up, right?
transition that Kyle justmentioned, you know, you had gone
into night through midnight withthe raga jog, and now you are.

(01:07:20):
Trying to experience the feeling ofit is morning and I love the 6 to 9 a.
m Range of it because sometimes Iwould like to sleep in and still
catch this energy But like thinkingof it that way again gives you a new
little lens on what you're listeningto The next time you listen to it

Kyle (01:07:40):
Also interesting for anyone subscribed to the calendar it is the
opening raga on the Call of the Valleyrecord which came out in 1968 and was
like, in many ways, considered thefirst true Hindustani classic that,
that sold super widely in the West.
So 12 full years after this came out, but,uh, still very much in the same tradition.

(01:08:03):
But if you look at the artwork for thatrecord, It it is literally pastoral.
It is a field in the day.
So, take in Ravi and his crew'sinterpretation of it and then
go check out Call of the Valleyfor their take on it as well.

Cliff (01:08:22):
right on And then the final raga, so this final one so far as I've been
able to discern, uh, is distinct from theother two in that it doesn't necessarily
represent culturally or otherwise a veryparticular time of day or concept but
musically there's a couple of thingsthis raga is distinct belonging to the

(01:08:44):
Southern Indian Carnatic tradition.
So I, I think these ragas arecombining multiple, multiple
cultures, uh, over time from within,you know, similar geographic areas.
But it's got some sort of functionalequivalence and other musical expressions.
So, raga is equivalent orsimilar to a Hungarian minor

(01:09:05):
scale in, in Western music.
We I'm saying this with asincere and straight face.
We don't really use the word gypsyanymore However, it is popularly known
as a gypsy minor scale so there aretouch points and alignments with what's
going on in this raga With other formsof music and other frameworks as well.
That's a little bit more Directly alignedthat some of the other ones are which

(01:09:27):
are a little bit more about a vibe in anassociation with music that comes from
a different culture than we really have.

Kyle (01:09:35):
Also called Egyptian Miner

Cliff (01:09:37):
Much
preferred.

Kyle (01:09:39):
Yeah affectionately so by Miles Davis, who in his autobiography said it's
something that he learned at Juilliard.
And so for the mega music nerds oraspiring music nerds familiar with
the sort of notoriously complexcomposition artists that, I think
Miles himself never actually recorded,but he composed and there are other

(01:10:03):
people's versions of it out there.
But like part of the canonfor Miles Heads and Jazz Heads
Nardis is also in this scale.

Cliff (01:10:12):
So, that's our best, here is what we think is the least amount of
information you might need to knowto go one level further into what
you're actually listening to here.
Uh, yeah, there would be other waysto summarize it but this is our best
approach and people keep tellingus that we're not too bad at it.
So here we are trying again,because we really want you to

(01:10:33):
get into this record if you can.
Like, sincerely, for real, once again, wewant you to get in to this music that you
might not be used to, and we're gonna doeverything we can to try to get you there.

Kyle (01:10:43):
More in the spirit of we are getting into it,
like as people who listen to a tonof music and have, crossed many
rivers musically and expanded inso many different directions that
this is exciting as two jaded musicpeople and we hope you sense that
excitement and are excited as well.

Cliff (01:11:04):
you know, I did that thing that my body does automatically now, where
if I start enjoying music to a certaindegree, I unconsciously start just
searching for artists named merch, soI'm just in Safari like, Robby Shankar
like, hold on, god damn it, nevermind,let's pull back, Yet another one for
the pile of things that Kyle's gonnaneed to make on the press that I get

(01:11:25):
him to put in his basement so that

Kyle (01:11:28):
to find a pretty cool Alice Coltrane shirt not too long ago that we were
like is this a cafe press bootleg butuh it actually turned out pretty nice.

Cliff (01:11:36):
So in that spirit, so the second exercise that we mentioned.
So when you want to go a littlebit further and focus on something
or isolate something what.
What stood out to you when you startedto listen into things in particular,
or, I don't know, what surprised youonce you started to isolate things?

Kyle (01:11:56):
exactly what you said about the sitar, uh, anchor and fly away
of the resonant notes and thenthe improv over and around it.
And just seeing how that made mefeel and how that was like, Oh, the
interaction between these two things.
I like in the same way that I likethe Everly like watching the way these

(01:12:20):
two notes or sets of notes interact.
But it was way wider than twopeople singing a note together
in time and amount of vibration.
So I thought that was,that was really cool.
Like you, you have said the word resonancea couple of times and on a, a literal
vibrational and on a spiritual level,the idea of resonance with each other and

(01:12:43):
with time and space being like sort of theultimate aim of music is the idea that I.
Can't get out of my head aswe think about this music.
So I just like having a guiding wordor a mantra of resonance as you go in
and like sort of visualizing the stuffdancing around each other is this, you
know, it's a little bit Xbox visualizer.

(01:13:05):
Hmm.

Cliff (01:13:06):
totally no that makes a ton of sense.
I yeah, we've talked about it, but Iended up thinking about really similar
things to I this was one of those recordsthat the more attention I tried to pay
to the music the more Non musical thingsstarted occurring to me Um, which is weird
like I don't know how to discern whichrecords do that exactly but this one does

(01:13:29):
and yeah resonance was a thing becauseI This will be fun to try to verbalize
one of those little thoughts that youend up letting run rampant in your brain,
but There's obviously, uh, inspirationand overlap with modern, like, drone.
You already mentioned Sun up at thetop but like, you know, you don't,

(01:13:50):
you don't have to be a genius tounderstand why drone would be influenced
by this type of music to begin with.
But when I think of like a Sunshow in particular or like a Noise
show, like, they, They are playingwith the relationship between
dissonance and consonance, right?
Like at a Sun show your heart starts toache because they're playing the they're

(01:14:14):
playing a Dissonant chord really reallyslow and you know that the resolving
chord is coming and so they're like slowlyplaying with kind of bending in and out of
what feels and seems right and you Beginto discern the waves, like you start to
hear the waves interacting with each otherand go, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa,

(01:14:37):
like you, you start to hear something ata, at a totally different level entirely.
And it kind of started occurring tome like that in a sort of spiritual,
descendant type of way, like that isthe resonance of their instrumentation.
Like the sitar is resonatingwhat is being played, you know,

(01:15:01):
melodically inside of a framework.
But it's interactions between itself.
And then the other instruments isdoing a very particular thing that
creates like, A bunch of kind of metacadences like you you hear different
rhythms, especially in the momentswhere there isn't a drum being played
in like similarly for a good drone band.

(01:15:23):
So not just.
Not just a bunch of doofuseson stage making noise and
hoping that it sounds right.
But those people that you've actuallyheard or seen, where you're like,
they're doing something and theyunderstand what it is, even if I don't.
That form of drone like, all of asudden it felt like my little third
eye opened up about the concept ofresonance, and it was like, wait.

(01:15:45):
The resonance of drone is the feedbackbetween amplifiers pointed at one another
that they're using to sort of resolveand create dissonance between them.
But then if you push that even further,like, is electronic music's resonance the
dancing people on the floor instead ofit being the way that the music sounds?
Because it's the thing that youare naturally creating as like an

(01:16:08):
expected byproduct of the thingthat you're doing in the music.
And like, It's not like there'ssome sort of magically profound
thing it brought me to.
It's more like it started to tellme that there is a profound thing
that I need to be more open to.
And, like, when you're just sittingthere listening to a fucking record

(01:16:29):
and your brain does that to you,like, something else is happening.
And, like, it's worth digging into whymusic just made you do a thing like that.
And not to go too hard on it, but to behonest with you, a thing that connected
with that feeling to me was, I saw,we're gonna go for it for a second,

(01:16:54):
sorry, I saw a quote from Ram Dass, whowas talking about something obviously
totally different, but he said, Asyou approach perfect truth, you meet
the guru on deeper and deeper planes.
And, For whatever reason, that concept,that was the, that made me go, Okay,

(01:17:15):
the thing that caused people, whichwe'll talk about some more in a
second, The thing that all of a suddenmakes people come alive sometimes,
When they hear this music for thefirst time, Is they are meeting Ravi.
They're meeting the guru of sitar at aplane that they can understand Because
you're willing to engage with it at thatlevel You're willing to like present

(01:17:37):
yourself to the music and try to hearwhat's happening and like you are meeting
someone who's not just good at sitar,but it's spiritually connected to their
instrument and the way that they Performand improvise music at all for people.
Does that make sense?

Kyle (01:17:56):
Yeah, it actually That and what you said about electronic
music and dancers being part of it.
Of the resonance.
Brought up something, the memory holdfrom high school in freshman year speech
class, the basic building block ofcommunication that you talk about on

(01:18:18):
the first day or first week is that all.
Communication in human connectionis signal and receiver and noise in
the middle and good communicationseeks to remove as much of the noise
and create fidelity or resonancebetween speaker and recipient, right?

(01:18:40):
Because we can never occupy the samebrain as two discreet units of existence.
So the best that we can do is tryto put out a signal and hope that
there is resonance and fidelity.
And when we find people that we fallin love with, or we find a scene that
we fall into in music or whatever,it's because there's greater resonance.

(01:19:03):
But that is in, I think that's whythere's such an affinity and for this
type of music and such a desire to godeep because it like it presents itself
as a sort of fidelity immediately andyou can't necessarily explain what it is
or why but part of it is because it haspractitioners like Ravi who understand

(01:19:25):
the power and the potency of it but evenif none of this is your bag like music in
general that's what you should be seekingis not only resonance with the guru
of music to take you deeper and deepertowards your own perfect truth in life.
But like, how can you put your perfecttruth out there with greater clarity

(01:19:47):
based on the red, like how musichas taught you to be more resonant?
That, that was an extremely hitsblunt sequence there for a minute,

Cliff (01:19:58):
Producer, please insert bong noises.

Kyle (01:20:03):
we do need, we do need a soundboard.
96.
9, the third eye, makingyour drive time trippy.

Cliff (01:20:12):
Whatever man, if you encounter either of us in actual life, we're gonna
be way more this way if we're sober.
So, sign yourself up.
Yup.

Kyle (01:20:20):
yeah, yeah.
This is, uh, this is pretty, pretty good.
Pretty toned down for the bar,

Cliff (01:20:24):
thing.
Um, because

Kyle (01:20:26):
we're a lot of fun when there's touch tunes and hot wings involved.
You get, you get more than you bargainedfor a hundred percent of the time, but
like, if you take nothing else awayfrom this episode, I hope that idea of.
You are a person probably withheadphones on, in a, in, on a train
or driving in a car or like sittingin a room by yourself in a house.

(01:20:48):
If you're listening to a podcast in avery isolating and fragmented world.
We should all be seeking resonancewith something like a higher thing,
not a thing that seeks to harm.
But this teaches you, this attunes you.
It doesn't really teach you.
It attunes you to the practiceof resonance because it

(01:21:09):
itself is pure and resonant.
And as I'm sure you want to get into, aswe talk about cultural impact, a lot of
people latch onto the wrong shit aboutthat or they make it about themselves.
But they still are drawn to it becauseof it's perfect truth as a teacher.
So thank you Ram Dass for that.

Cliff (01:21:32):
for the segue.
Um, let me make fun ofone or more Beatles.
be

Kyle (01:21:37):
I got a song about an octopus
when you the whole time you were talkingabout the Beatles in the intro and like,
you know, alluding to Beatles go to India.
I can only remember itas the Dewey Cox version.
Now, like, that's, that's whatI picture in my mind's eye.
It's Paul Rudd, Jack Black, JasonSchwartzman, and Justin Long.

(01:22:02):
Just sitting here whilemy guitar weeps loudly.
We're
from

Cliff (01:22:07):
that's fine.
Besides, I was reminded how much ofa jackass I am anyway for hating the
Beatles, because literally, I sawsomeone on the internet this week use
the phrase, There are people who hatethe Beatles, as a phrase to help you
remember that there will always be haters.
Like, oh, well, mm, okay.
Okay, well, maybe

Kyle (01:22:28):
it.
I'm, I'm more, I just want to goon the record of saying like, I was
a, a Beatles militant, anti Beatlesmilitant for a long time, but now I'm
mostly just in the Ron Funches camp.
There's that clip of him goingaround where he says, outcast is
more important than the Beatles.
Um, and you know, in 25, 30 years,there will be another insert.

(01:22:51):
Whatever is more importantthan outcasts, but.
moves on and the sandshifts to other oceans.
So,

Cliff (01:22:57):
It's just, it's partially a defensible stance that's mostly about if
you pay too much attention to the Beatles,I think you're not paying enough attention
to everything that's not the Beatles,and that's pretty much the root of it.
But this, but this is anobjectively hilarious moment, okay?
Because The Beatles are sort of famouslycentered as like one of the portal

(01:23:19):
holes through which Ravi entered Westernsociety, but like the That point, though,
is sort of pseudo famously on Rubber Soulin 1965 Beatles record the song Norwegian
Wood had an improvised sitar on it.
And They would go on in subsequent recordson Revolver tracks like Love You Too

(01:23:45):
and Tomorrow Never Knows had a ton ofinfluence of Indian music, uh, off Sgt.
Pepper's, You Got Within You, Without You.
So like, this persisted, but In NorwegianWood, there was this kind of improvised
sitar, which, you know, sounded, soundedcool to the untrained ear, in, in general.

Kyle (01:24:08):
Narrator,

Cliff (01:24:12):
It's kind of hard to say, like, I don't think they did
anything intentionally disrespectfulhowever, What they did was sort of
effectively disrespectful in thatGeorge Harrison heard a sitar.
He heard Ravi, okay?
Other people had heard Ravi.
He heard Ravi and he said thatsounds tight and he's not wrong

(01:24:32):
about that It does sound tight.
That is pretty cool.
The Beatles probablycould use some weirdness.
You should try.
However, Understand like we've triedto present to you a little bit.
Um, I'm Indian classical music is imbuedwith like a spiritual connectedness
to the mastery of your instrument.
So the idea that you would then simplytake that instrument and then dick

(01:24:55):
around on your track, call it sitar,and then put it out there to which
other people who had never heard sitarwent, that sounds cool, is kind of like
low key disrespectful at this point.
Uh,

Kyle (01:25:08):
not to make a waffle house, not to make a waffle house ass analogy,

Cliff (01:25:12):
do.

Kyle (01:25:13):
but it's a bit like if you drive fast down the back roads.
and you think, well, I couldbe a race car driver for sure.
I can drive.
Um, except the turns atTalladega are like 90 degrees.
They're vertical.
You drive on a wall and that'sthe difference between you

(01:25:36):
and one of the big guys.
Um, Nikki Glaser also saidsomething to that effect in the
Tom Brady roast race recently.
Like there's so many clowns thatthink they can go out there.
and play football because theybeat a guy in a foot race once.
But like, if you stepped foot ontothe field itself, you would blow
up into a pink mist compared toa professional football player.

Cliff (01:25:58):
Yup.
Oh, man.
Tom Brady being publicly roasted.
Drake being publicly dissed.
2024 is the year of receiving

Kyle (01:26:07):
Nature is healing.

Cliff (01:26:09):
yes.
Oh, we love it.
But okay.
So, okay.
What Ravi said, though, when he heardNorwegian Wood, quote, quote, quote.
I couldn't believe it.
It sounded so strange.
Just imagine some Indian villagertrying to play the violin when you
know what it should sound like.
Oh shit.

(01:26:31):
Like that's so hard, dude.
Like in one sentence, he is talking aboutGeorge Harrison, who again I like poking
fun of the Beatles, but George Harrisonwas a bad ass, very good guitar player.
So to just be like, Yeah, I heard GeorgeHarrison playing sitar after he heard me.
It was like hearing someone play aninstrument when you know that they don't

(01:26:51):
know what it is supposed to sound like.
Like, oh damn!
Okay.
And I think that little nugget is funnybecause Eventually, George Harrison would
go on to take sitar lessons from Robbie,but if you let yourself tell the funny
story, or the overly fuzzy story of it,it's like, oh, the Beatles were inspired
by Robbie and then George Harrison gotsitar lessons and started playing sitar.

(01:27:15):
No, it was more like George Harrisonfucked up on a sitar in public, and
Robbie was like, would you like somelessons, so that the next time I
hear you play, it sounds like someonewho knows how to play the sitar.
I just, like, I love every bit ofthat, including the fact that George
Harrison then took those lessonsand had a friendship with Robbie.
It's a beautiful vignette, uh, ofthe slightly counterintuitive type

(01:27:39):
of influence he would go on to have.

Kyle (01:27:41):
George Harrison had no problem being humbled publicly.
I'll say that.

Cliff (01:27:48):
So, in that I think, again, I think we can mostly gloss over here
primarily because the whole narrativeisn't actually that important, but it
is In a literal sense, trivially fun,uh, in some particular areas so kind
of speaking around that time that wasaround 1965 when again, that's when
Norwegian Wood came out, uh, and so,you're talking about the late 60s, uh,

(01:28:11):
is when Robbie starts to get in, incloser relationship with, famous Western
rock and rollers for the most part.
But part of how that accelerated.
Was that Robby was recording at thesame studio as the Byrds and David
Crosby that guy Was he so he met theguru like he had the oh shit moment

(01:28:35):
and went fucking crazy about ittelling everyone he could just like
yo this stuff is choice like Whatever.
I just heard in the studio is

Kyle (01:28:44):
it reminded me of when Dave Grohl heard Kyuss for the first time.
That's that story Dave Grohl tells allthe time of like, I went out and bought
a hundred copies of Blues for the RedSun with Nevermind money and gave it to
everyone that I ever ran across ever.
And it's got that vibe to it.

Cliff (01:29:04):
And like around that same time, we'll mention the jazz aspect in a second
and we'll have to take a couple of yearsstep back to do that, but just finishing
the quick, like little classic rockthing, like in that same little period
of time, there was a, in, in, this isa bit of a double edged sword, I guess,
like, I think there was some sincereinfluence from, you know, Ravi in indian

(01:29:28):
classical music and then just a bunchof aping that started happening, too It
was just like I want my guitar to soundmore like a sitar without understanding
anything that went into any of that butjust things that you can hear quickly.
The Kinks in 1965 put outa song, See My Friends.
Uh, and then that same year theYardbirds did Heart Full of Soul.
And they're basically interpolations ofIndian music and a nice little moment

(01:29:53):
of trying to see what was happening whenbasically guitarists, blues based rock
guitarists who were experimenting atthat point with, you know, amplifiers
and electronic guitars and all that, theystarted trying to, you know, Find a way to
sound more like sitar or otherwise indianclassical music and It led to a series

(01:30:16):
of really fun and interesting, ridiculousmoments, but one of them even just being
that Yardbirds track that I mentioned,like, they, they tried to, they hired an
actual sitar player to come and recordit for them in the studio, and like,
didn't feel like they could make it work.
So Jeff Beck, and that was his firstrecording with the Yardbirds, uh,

(01:30:37):
after he replaced Eric Clapton.
So he, he had the cool task of, uh, notonly being better than Eric Clapton in
this band, but trying to replace an Indianclassical sitar player on the track.
Uh, and that is how they ended up.
But that, again, that's just like,a tenth of a tenth of a percent of
the sort of Huge impact it started tohave on classic rock that would that

(01:31:01):
would eventually result in things likemonterey pop and the woodstock festival.

Kyle (01:31:06):
I think a lot of my hesitation with like trying to find the right
inroad to talk about this music wasthinking immediately of all this
hacky shit, you know, just all theTodd, Chad's and Brad's of the sixties
getting ahold of this, you know, likeputting up a Bob Marley, Marley poster
and all of a sudden you're Ross Trent.

(01:31:27):
Thinking about even songs that I like,like, you know, paint it black being
probably the biggest example and BrianJones playing on that or like the
doors, the end, trying to simulate araga looking back at it, it's all very
Gwen Stefani or like Harajuku girl era.
It's like, this is not, this ain't it.

(01:31:50):
Because you're right, they, they justlike the physical sounds, but didn't
try to connect with the spirit ofthe instrument and the why behind it.
And that's so crucial to the practice, toachieving what makes it sound truly good.

Cliff (01:32:09):
Yeah In a sort of counterpoint or converse to that would be a
bit of how Jazz was beginning toincorporate and interact with it and
specifically through John Coltrane.
I think John Coltrane's interactionswith Ravi not only predate George
Harrison's and the rest of theguitarists, but it also I have a curiosity

(01:32:33):
about the the earth on which JohnColtrane lived further into his life.
Because what was pretty interesting was hewas beginning to, he already had expressed
a sort of, not a sort of, a respect forRavi and a reverence for what he was doing
musically, which just on its own is like,if you have John Coltrane's attention, I

(01:32:58):
don't know what sentence comes after that.
But.
In 1961, Coltrane had already startedperforming with tamburas backing
and then on Africa Brass in 1961,he tries to replicate the tabla, the
hand drum, by having two differentupright bass players imitate the

(01:33:21):
overall sound of tabla together.
And they would not necessarily, orthey did not go on to collaborate or
do anything in particular together,but, you know, before John Coltrane
died two things worth saying.
One is, like he said explicitly, I collectthe records that Ravi makes and his

(01:33:42):
music moves me, which just any amount ofstudy of John Coltrane will lead you to
understand he would not have said that.
Unless he meant it that way.
But secondly, like just an anecdote.
He named his own son Robbie There was aconnection he met the guru and wanted to
be musically connected and so that's whyit interests me to some degree like Some

(01:34:05):
of what will kind of close on the wayRobbie's influence turned in the later
60s I am curious about that turn If JohnColtrane had still been, uh, with us
on this planet at that particular time.
Curious if that would havechanged or moved anything.

Kyle (01:34:22):
Yeah, don't, don't tempt yourself with the what if Kurt Cobain were
still alive exercise that so many
people around our age are tempted to do.

Cliff (01:34:32):
So I think

Kyle (01:34:32):
Uh, this, this music and the practice of mindfulness should remind
you like all jokes aside about wherethat could have gone the practice of
this could remind you like you, youcannot change the conditions here.
Here we are.
Do not entertain hypotheticals.
I

Cliff (01:34:47):
Fair point.
So okay, so then let's, so then the nonhypothetical, which is cool to round this
out and then we'll talk about what to donext if you've connected with something
in this episode, which was our lastexercise, which is really cool, honestly.
So the turn that it kind of took instead.
Robbie's influence, popularity,however you kind of want to

(01:35:10):
describe it, skyrocketed.
He played Monterey Pop in 1967, whichI have literally studied that as a
historical moment in time, so I'm veryfamiliar with all of it, but like, this
is the moment where like, Jimi Hendrixfamously lit his guitar on fire and like,
The Who had just been the loudest bandto ever exist on record just prior to
this festival happening, and a whole,just, it was a, Huge cultural moment and

Kyle (01:35:36):
talked about it pretty extensively.
It's a crucial part ofOtis's story, right?

Cliff (01:35:41):
Yes,
absolutely.
Man, it's hard to imagine that

Kyle (01:35:44):
Like, so a lot of like crazy cultural confluence with around this thing

Cliff (01:35:50):
Yeah But suffice it to say you can probably envision what the audience
looked, seemed, felt like in 1967 Yeah,and just like, I tend to forget this,
but like, there was a period wherelike, acid was not illegal, so, see,
the thing that your eyes just made,see, we're in an audio format, but your

(01:36:12):
eyes did that, and then mine did thatrecently when I read it, and I was like,
what, in my brain, it's never not beenillegal, so that, it, yeah, that sort
of changes some of my perspective ona very particular moment in time, uh,

Kyle (01:36:25):
like a, like a cultural third rail to,

Cliff (01:36:28):
yes, um,

Kyle (01:36:29):
you know, the, the precipice over which the conversation starts to
alienate the weekend warriors, you know,somebody that you could very easily pass
a joint you say acid and you separatethe men from the boys, so to speak.

Cliff (01:36:43):
Yep.
So he played Monterey Pop alongwith a lot of other folks.
Uh, and again, this was kind offamously the place where the audience
started cheering after they got donetuning their instruments together.
And he said, if you liked that,you're really probably going to
like what we're about to play.

(01:37:04):
It's just like it.
Even that little moment starts tobring you to like, oh, this, this dude
must have been of two minds already.
Just like, what have I done?
What am I doing and what have I done?
But, he was well receivedbecause shit is tight, man.
Like, people on acid don't knowor don't not know what awesome

(01:37:26):
Indian music sounds like.
So, like, all that was fine, but Ravi'sexperience of that was, Interesting.
So a quote from him that I think reallysets us up to like, try to close the book
or the chapter on this as best we can witha sense of reverence and like optimism.
So he said, in talking about MontereyPop Festival, quote, I was shocked to

(01:37:50):
see people dressing so flamboyantly.
They were all stoned.
Um, to me, it was a new world.
I liked Otis Redding.
I liked the mamas and thepapas, Peter, Paul, and Mary,
because they were very soothing.
Then I saw Jimi Hendrix.
I saw how wonderful he was at theguitar, and I was really admiring him.

(01:38:10):
And then he started his antics,making love to the guitar.
And then, as if that was notenough, he burned the guitar.
That was too much for me.
Okay, it's funny and we can laugh, butthen I also want you to hear the last
part of this quote really specifically.
Okay, he said that was toomuch for me in our culture.

(01:38:31):
We have such respectfor musical instruments.
They are like part of god Oh Okay Ibet you didn't have a great time at
monterey pop festival And like and thenhe would like he performed at woodstock
and he fucking hated it He hated it.
and that helped me bring a littlebit more out from this album, too.

(01:38:53):
Because I don't read that as just likeregret or dismissal or really anything
overly negative other than, oh shit, Iforgot that this person was from a totally
different planet, it feels like, becauseof how far our cultures can be separated
and how ignorant we can be of one anotherwhat we think about things in general.

(01:39:17):
And so all of a sudden I had a littlebit more clarity to see this guy who's
like, I think he probably was reallyhappy and pleased and said so that he
influenced Western music and broughtIndian classical music to new places
and shared his gift with a lot of peopleand did a lot of really amazing stuff.
And on the other hand, There must bea bitterness to seeing something that

(01:39:42):
you feel is sacred being extractedand exploited as Americans are so
want to do right in front of yourfucking face, right at the moment
where they're yelling back at you.
You're very important to us and all ofour musicians are very inspired by you.
Like, well, why can't any of you takethis seriously for like 30 seconds?

Kyle (01:40:04):
Yeah, I loved reading about that.
He Didn't make demands of hisaudience in a Miles Davis way or
like he didn't antagonize them, butstrongly gently encouraged Them to
meet him at that level of reverence.
There's that pretty famous interviewfrom 67 with krla where he Basically

(01:40:26):
talks about like what you do on yourtime is your business, but like don't
don't show up slammed to my show.
the the music is intended to intoxicateyou and fill you with those feelings, but
It's been handed down from a religiousbackground over literal centuries, like
it traces back to 5000 BC pretty clearly.

(01:40:50):
So don't, don't trivialize it bytreating it like a Phish show.

Cliff (01:40:56):
so we did our best we did our best to like really get the heart of this
thing across to anyone within the soundof our stupid voices like There's as we
always tell you there's there's fuckingmagic in music like positioning yourself
to receive it is awesome There's a tonof stuff to discover and you can do it

(01:41:19):
with a record like this seriously, nomatter how Literally, it feels to you
in this moment, if this is your initialexposure to Ravi, to Indian classical
music, to whatever you don't have to feelbad about the sense that it feels foreign.
There's nothing wrong with it.

(01:41:40):
I think even, even reflecting on likeRavi's words that we just shared, it's
like, he, he, He's not criticizinganyone for wanting to hear his music.
There's no problem in that sense.
Like, what he wants you to do isconnect with it differently because
it's being sent differently.
The intended resonance is a sober audiencewho's focused for hours at a time.

(01:42:03):
Not necessarily the, the people who arethere to just like literally feel the
vibrations as they're having more ofa esoteric internal experience in, you
know, amongst themselves all at once.
And like, it's a directional thing thatsomeone else wants you to experience.
Um, but you can enter into thatwith a little bit of practice,

(01:42:24):
even if you're not good at it.

Kyle (01:42:26):
Happy birthday Ravi Shankar, you would have loved Coachella.
You

" Cliff (01:42:31):
The people, they are in tents.
Why?
They do not leave each night.
Why?
Why is this?"
so let's close out this waybecause I love doing this now.
This is my favorite way toput an end on this thing.
So like, if something just connectedwith me through any of this, Kyle,
what should I start doing next?
Or what should I look for next?

(01:42:52):
Or what are like, any thingsI can set my brain towards?

Kyle (01:42:55):
talked about the resonance and the foreignness, like the two feelings
I think that you could be left with.
Thank you.
after these recordings.
So if you're seeking theresonance, seek the seekers.
I think the two disciples in their literalmusic or in their spiritual approach,
who can probably offer you the mosthere are John Coltrane or Philip Glass,

(01:43:17):
who we haven't touched on, but, um,wonderful, tremendous composer of mostly
known for minimalist classical music.
Glass's attitude about.
Ravi Shankar's impact on him, it like sentme in the direction that I want to go.
So I would simply say on the note ofresonance, if you want more tuning

(01:43:43):
fork-y type stuff Glass himselfsaid, Ravi Shankar opened the door
into a new world of music for me.
He told NPR this when he was releasinghis memoir, Words Without Music which
I also immediately cued on my tablet.
he said that the encounter was Shankar,and they eventually collaborated on,
unlike Coltrane a record called Passages.

(01:44:06):
The encounter with Shankar meantthe discovery of a wide panorama
of musical traditions that untilthen had been unknown to Glass.
India to begin with, but soon hiscuriosity and desire for exploration
took him into Chinese Taoism, itsJapanese Shinto variants, the native
peoples of Australia and otherculture territories that expressed
their worldview through music.
The door opened by Shankar led to a wideand diverse road That made Glass take

(01:44:29):
that step that few of us can, and alongwhich we could for a moment cease to look
at the world from our own criteria, ourway of thinking, to contemplate it at
least partially from other parameters.
Glass said, I think one of the reasonsthat I wrote so much music in my life is
because I met a lot of interesting people.
As if raising to another scale, thatof creativity in the imagination,

(01:44:52):
the well known saying that eachperson's head is a world in itself.
It opens the door to worlds within worlds.
Like, seek the dimension of resonance,both in music that you already think
you love and in music that seemscompletely foreign to you, and use that
as a vehicle to connect to more people.

(01:45:12):
I work in a global role now.
with people in like 14 countries and theeasiest way to understand who they are and
where they've come from is the vocabularyof music because it comes naturally.
Use music to seek resonance inthe world around you and try
to grow your world as a result.
And on the foreignness note,like straight up legit.

(01:45:35):
If you live in the Western world,study India, the music and the country.

Cliff (01:45:41):
Plus one.

Kyle (01:45:41):
It's like the scale of it is almost incomprehensible.
Yeah, it is the seventhlargest country by geography.
It is the most populous countryin the world, overtaking China
in the past few years, 1.
4 billion people on the subcontinent,but not just a lot of people represents

(01:46:03):
100 languages, more than 700 tribesand every major religion in the world.
People look differently, they speakdifferently, they think differently.
They live on a landmass that has everygeography and climate imaginable, deserts,
rainforest, mountains, you know, Everestand the Himalayas, it's all there.

(01:46:25):
And the geography leadsto different cultures.
And we talked about Hindustani versusCarnatic music, the two types of
Indian classical music representedin the three ragas on this record.
India's huge and it's the marble onthe cat in uh, in men in black that
like contains the whole universe.
It is a microcosm of everything.

(01:46:47):
And not only is there the classicalmusic tradition that continues to inform
modern styles, But there are all thesemodern styles you know, filmy Bollywood
music or music for Indian film makesup 72 percent of India's music sales.
Imagine a world in which Hans Zimmer andTrent Reznor scores were three quarters

(01:47:11):
of all all music sold in America.
Like that's an unfathomable thought.
And then there's DJ music to yourpoint about electronic music and
dance being part of the resonance.
That's a huge part of the culturein a number of different ways.
And then, Pop mixes old and newtraditions and Western stuff.

(01:47:31):
There's cool metal bandscoming out of India.
So there's all sorts of Western influencebeing like refracted back into there.
But.
There's just so much going on that,like, if you start at Ravi and you want
to become a Ravi scholar, just expandit to the diversity of India and, like,
spend a little while being mad abouthow little you were taught about the

(01:47:53):
Eastern Hemisphere, sort of in general,in American schools but, like, let, let
the Bill Nye the science guy, um, Partof you activate where you just, you want
to go learn everything that you possiblycan and go to the library and check out
encyclopedias and all that sort of stuff.

Cliff (01:48:09):
I love it.
I would, the only thing I would add tothat at all as another starting point,
or maybe I should say one that couldtranslate into live music, especially
locally for people in the West try aweird genre of music that you think

(01:48:31):
is potentially aligned with whatis trying to be accomplished here.
So drone is a good example,but I just want to be clear.
I'm not telling you Goto a random noise show.
Okay?
I, if you are not experienced

Kyle (01:48:46):
you like Ravi Shankar, you might like Merzbow.

Cliff (01:48:52):
and maybe you do, okay?
But, Don't, don't take stabs inthe dark from, like, local bands.
I'm saying, Especially if this is notyour usual cup of tea Hit, hit someone
that's known for doing this well.
A sun show.
I would include like Godspeed You BlackEmperor, even though they're a little bit
more on the sort of ambient side, like,they are literally playing in a semicircle

(01:49:14):
towards each other, their resonance isinvolved in what they are doing as well.
And so, these are a little bit moredirectly spiritually descended from the,
that idea of resonance meditative musicover long periods of time that people
are supposed to experience quietly.
trying to go to one of those and beginningto use whatever skills you may have

(01:49:35):
developed through listening to thisrecord and applying it to that setting
because yes, there are bad drone andnoise bands, um, shoegaze happened, but
you can begin to you'll, for lack of abetter term, you'll start to see the guru.
In certain bands like you'll go.

(01:49:56):
Oh, oh, no.
Okay.
They know what they're doingI feel like I may not like it.
It may be abrasive but I I see athing that's happening here and it
feels different than other thingsthat I have seen and felt before
from other bands and like Those arethe moments that you're looking for.

Kyle (01:50:14):
Man, I love that so much.
There's such a satisfying feelingin, well, that wasn't for me, but
I learned something tonight, or Ireally appreciate that that exists.
You and I were texting feverishlya few weeks ago when I went
to Big Ears in Knoxville, andthat is the spirit of Big Ears.

(01:50:35):
It is the pinnacle for my moneyof anything that I've ever seen
anywhere in the world in terms ofjust growing yourself and your world.
Like that is the purpose,to have Big Ears, to listen.
And if there were ever anartist who embodied the spirit.
Of what that festival is gettingafter, it would be Ravi Shankar.

Cliff (01:50:58):
100 percent.
Thank you, Ravi.

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Episode 53: Ravi Shankar's "Three Ragas"

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