Episode 63: Black Moth Super Rainbow's "Dandelion Gum"

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Today we're talking about DandelionGum by Black Moth Super Rainbow.
Kyle, I just wanted to maybe check in.
How are things going?
I'm holding space, andby space I mean the void.
Hold my one finger, Cliff.
I'm holding space for this moment.
This podcast is not live streamed Butit is nearly always recorded in such a

(00:24):
way where the time frame that you arelistening To this episode in we still
share the general context of whateveryour brain is doing today At the same
moment that we are talking to eachother and I don't think I have ever
felt so excited for such a great fitfor a bad moment as this particular

(00:48):
record gives us the opportunity to do.
Not only because, well, by the timethis drops, everything could be
more terrible than it is but things
Probably won't be better.
no, no, probably not and thingsare in the running for, uh, capital
W worst of all time already.
So.

(01:09):
It's a hard moment to exist.
And threw this podcast.
love and support each other through ourlove and appreciation for this music and
craft and so many of our episodes remindus that Invariably by paying attention
to music in even a somewhat serious wayWe are always going to unearth deeply

(01:34):
serious topics because music is madeby people in the same time and reality
That all the other crazy shit that'sever happened Happened and as such we
end up lining up episodes even justin the last three before this one.
We have like Religious deconstructionof paramour and what it means to be like
truly accepting of other indifferentpeople We have grace jones's night

(01:57):
clubbing coming from a very particularmoment in time and a very particular
archetype of person Both of which areright back in another loop in this
moment in time of Uh, having to beless open and excited about who you
are because the people who want toclamp down on you for being different

(02:18):
have become emboldened once again.
And then after that episode, we talk aboutthe non glorification of Project Pat of
true and actual 90s hood life in Memphis.
Like, we have a good time onthis episode and on this podcast.
But.
That can all just be a lot and I'm justdelighted to present to people today A

(02:42):
bunch of fucking bullshit, by, by somegoobers, with some vintage synthesizers,
who know how to create a really nice hook,and we can just calm the fuck down, and
remember that music can also do otherthings than just make us think about
the anxiety inducing, intense thingsthat we have to go through every day.

(03:05):
And I am stoked to just take onthat angle, for a little bit.
Today with you.
Chat GPT, summarizeeverything Cliff just said.
Hey man, got a joint?
Because you need a lot of them.
I agree that this thing is a bomb.
and there are words from a coupleof folks that I think summarize, uh,

(03:31):
the product summary on the outside ofthe prescription bottle of the cell.
so if things are feeling kind ofheavy on you right now, and maybe
you just want like some pop, you justwant to vibe out, but like the pop.
Fair of the radio andwhatever isn't your deal.

(03:52):
What about an artist who, quote, Takestrippiness and dreaminess to an all new
level With the futuristic music peoplehad hoped to listen to 20 and 30 years ago
And that time to hear it is now Future popfor now, people Today That sounds great!
I would like that I would like to imaginebeing in a different timeline With good

(04:13):
pop music and the world not falling apartUm, but if that is not your foot, if
you need a, if you need a little higherconcentration dosage of your prescription,
how about this from Jennifer Kelly?
If pop matters, dandelion gum is oneof those records that makes you feel
like you're high, even when you're notlike you're on the verge of shambolic

(04:33):
visions, even if you're taking outthe trash, like there's an ineffable
order to the universe, even when allsigns point to chaos, motherfucker,
send me a Costco amount of that right.
This second.
Let's go.
where can I get it?
It ships from Pittsburgh,Pennsylvania of all places.

(04:54):
A lot of weird shit we'llship to you from Pittsburgh,
Pennsylvania and we love to see it.
Tight neck and neck race for thebest drug inspired and oriented music
coming out of Pittsburgh between BlackMoth Super Rainbow and Wiz Khalifa.
You know, not to intellectualize athing that should not be inherently

(05:17):
intellectualized, but comparing thisrecord to Feeling High is real good in
the context of what we are talking about.
Because if I can just makeeveryone laugh for just a moment
what is the appropriate level?
of World Seriousness for youto be stoned off your ass.
When is it ever the right amount,the right time, everything has been

(05:41):
taken care of just enough for it to bereasonably excusable for you to just
take a break, chill out, and try toremind your brain that it doesn't have
to solve every problem that has occurredto you in the last, like, 96 hours?
This record does that.
Like Pavlov's Bell does, especiallyif you listen to it enough, and that

(06:02):
is a joy and a treasure that I hadrelegated to particular records, and
this one just like, walked itself rightup to the front door and joined that
collection, which I'm sure we'll talksome about today, but like, the thing
that just puts you in a trance and letsyou feel good, the music, It's fun.

(06:26):
It's memorable.
I understand it.
Like, all those things that justlet your heart rate come back
down just a little bit, eventhough you're having a good time.
I think that comparison ends up holdingSteady a lot more than it should
with all this music because this isexactly the thing that I would like
to encourage people to do is do theequivalent of getting stoned with music

(06:50):
again if you haven't in a while becauseyou also need to remember to relax.
Now is an important time for
The body's keeping the score, baby.
And you gotta reset the scoreboard everyonce in a while, you know what I'm saying?
I do.
I do.
I
The doctor is in, andhis name is Thomas Feck.

(07:14):
Moon.
And to say a little bit more aboutit to you, I guess, before we, we
get into a little bit more specifics,I, I'm not just being lightheartedly
facetious about this, I guess.
Like, I truly think that this was, onceagain, a nicely timed record to, Have
to process and consume in the disciplineof listening to listening to music as

(07:38):
we have and as we've talked about withthe With the calendar and in this idea
of listening to music as it kind ofcomes to you instead of you vibing your
way to the music every time and To methis reminded me of something that helps
me center myself a little bit in thismoment the When everything starts to

(08:00):
feel like really, really serious, whichif I'm being honest, it feels that way
right now, everything feels like DEFCONwhatever the number is that indicates
the highest DEFCON, like five alarm fire,everything is jacked, what do we even
start to do to me, when the seriousnessof everything ramps up, there is this

(08:24):
possible inverse that can appear to you.
And it's not like.
Otherwise known as Defcon69 or Five Alarm Chili.
that will partially align with thepoint that I'm making, but thank you.
Yes, sort of to that point, the inverseof all that seriousness isn't like
silliness, like we're still adults, right?

(08:46):
We can't just relax by.
Being stupid.
I know some people take thatapproach with life and, you know,
if, um, that's basically justalcoholism by any other name.
But like, you can numb yourselfinto ridiculousness every day if
that's how you want to detach.
There's, I think, a better and moreinteresting part of that to ride out.

(09:09):
And so instead of the oppositeof seriousness being silly or
stupidity, It's unseriousness.
And I mean that like reallyspecifically because like to
me it aligns with that idea
absence of seriousness.
You mean, not necessarily thepresence of silliness, but the
like a vacuum of it.
Yeah and like Similarly to that phrase,like if everything is important,

(09:34):
nothing is like, dude, if everythingis on fire, it's time to recalibrate.
And I think this year is going to bea really good opportunity for us as
people to remember how to do that.
The premise of this podcastis that music gives you a way.
To do those types of things foryourself in ways that you might not

(09:55):
know how to anticipate, or might notbe good enough to do with music yet.
And so we end up talking a lot about howto do that and sort of teaching that.
This is a good example of arecord that's come right to you.
Dandelion Gum is this plushtrain ride straight out of hell.
Just a truly weird thing that youcan attach yourself to because

(10:19):
it is good and interesting inways that will surprise you.
But I think this gives us somethingto attach ourselves to that maybe
reconnects that portion of our brainthat can actually lean all the way
back and remember all the things thatwe can't change and that we can't do.
And.

(10:40):
This record did it for me at a time whereI needed it to and I didn't expect it
That in a meta sense is always the shitthat I love about every episode that we
do It's always going to hit me in a way.
I didn't expect
I'm so excited to hear that because Iknew, like, Black Moth was one of those
things I'd, like, filed away from my outin the streets in the mid and late aughts.

(11:05):
Like Atlanta had such acounterculture in those days.
That was like, this reallycaptures weird shit.
How shows strange unbathed people justlike full of just strange characters
and just trippiness everywhere you went.
And I feel like I was like out in thestreets on the scene at a lot of those

(11:30):
places and you were like rightfullyminding your own business a little more.
And it makes me really happy that likethis, you got on a wavelength with
this, cause we have always been on
coordinatable wavelengths, I'll say,but that was a time when I think we

(11:51):
were both like branching out in alot of ways and we were getting into
really, really different things.
So it's just like, I also like to thinkof it a little bit of as an artifact of
this, like immediately pre Ified internetwhen like there was still promise in
culture and counterculture and you know,the, the hope and change just before

(12:15):
Obama's America and just that strangelittle moment, the, the like 2002 to
2009 10 moment that will be impossibleto encapsulate in words forever.
And a lot of the artifacts are.
Lo fi or gone because it wassuch a transitional moment

(12:36):
and culture changed so fast.
So it's like, I also just on likea personal level, I'm glad that
we're capturing a little bit ofthis headspace for posterity.
For sure, I mean 2007 in general is A coolmoment to look back on musically speaking
and to the context you just mentioned,because that hopefulness of technology and

(13:02):
music taking off is, I mean, a big partof the appeal of Black Moth Super Rainbow
and how they came to grow anyway, becauseTwo two things were evolving at that time.
One is the ability to create music moreeasily and at a higher level than before.
And then at the same time, theability to distribute music at

(13:24):
scale and in a different waythat it never happened before.
And just to, recontextualize, especiallyfor folks who may be, you know, young
enough to where this wasn't a momentwhere they were paying a ton of attention.
The same record, or the same year thatthis record came out, so 2007, was
when Radiohead released In Rainbowsand sort of flipped around the model

(13:44):
of being able to get to music at all.
Did the pay what you want thing.
Right, which was, which now seems sosimple, but at the time was, I mean,
it was the event of the internet, uh,and it was it was pointing us towards
a future where, One million blog thinkpieces were written, I'm sure, in 2007

(14:07):
about the democratized future of musicnow because if independent artists
can make music and they can distributeit directly to people, what do we
even need corporations for anymore?
Which is a nice trip to the pastreminding us that that question doesn't
necessarily result in the future we want.

(14:27):
But it also fostered such a curiosity,you know, you know, like people seem to
be fascinated with millennials and eldermillennials is like a, Oh, a strange
little alien thing in the culturalconsciousness in good and bad ways.
But, you know, what you see in themoment that is 2007 and below the surface

(14:49):
stuff like Black Moth Super Rainbow is.
The fruits coming to bear of like fiveyears of unfettered music access your
Napster's your cause as your whatever,and then a real sort of like end of web 1.
0 ecosystem of that curiosityand insatiable sense of

(15:11):
discovery starting to pop up.
and like, I don't even rememberwhat the, big stuff would have
been in exactly that time.
Like, was it per pure volumewith SoundCloud around yet?
Was it still my space maybe for alittle bit, but there were like all
of these vehicles where people werestarting to curate and go farther and
farther out and there, there was just areal sense that anything was possible.

(15:35):
and in fact, we had to likedo more and try more and.
There was so much experimentationand breaking down of artificial
boundaries that had existed and genre.
And this was just one of the reallysmart, cool by products of that
kind of Petri dish in culture.
Yeah, and to, uh, as we'll discuss,to a shocking degree, that is the case

(16:01):
because just to really set the stage,by the way, we're, we're going to tell
you all the reasons you're going tolike this record, but you need to know
how ridiculous the setting of it isin order to fully appreciate the weird
vibes it's going to throw at you thatyou're going to end up liking a lot,
and then later finding yourself singing.
Uh, ridiculous vocoder esque lines of.

(16:22):
I also think though, it would be veryeasy to just do a 30 second, like
you joke, right before we startedrecording a 30 second, like, Oh man.
And that's just the whole thing.
Like, just go listen to it.
And it's.
It's way more self evident of anenjoyable listen than anything
we've done for a while, to
Oh, yeah, fair point,
Immediately, you're like, oh shit,this feels like getting in a hot tub.

(16:46):
And you're just like, alright, I'mgood, check back on me in two hours
or whatever and see if I've pruned.
It just works on a primal level.
So I think doing a littlebit of examination around,
how did this come to be?
So specific and so good because I thinkeven if you do a million tentacles of

(17:07):
recommended, if you like, you're not goingto find anything that's quite like this
very specific thing, which they have hehas chased this sort of very specific
thing and made it work for him again andagain and just like refine the formula
subtly, but it's a thing that works.
so knowing like what could have evengiven rise to that is interesting.

(17:29):
On the flip side, there's a lot of mysteryaround the artist, you know, quote,
unquote, maybe there is, maybe thereisn't, and less so as he's gotten older.
But that was like a reallybig deal for a long time.
And on the flip side, youcan consider like, how little
do you really need to know?
Or like, how little could you possiblyknow to still enjoy this thing?

(17:50):
So I do want us to ride that line of, Aswe use that phrase often, like not cutting
the lights on in Space Mountain, justlike finding lots of little textures as we
stick our hands out of the coaster withoutaccidentally flipping a light switch.
Yeah, but this one would be pretty tight.
Cause like, I feel like on this one,if you turn the lights on in Space

(18:12):
Mountain, It's like, there's a dudedownstairs in like, a rope with
like, neon silly string or something.
And he's just sort of dancing to himself.
And he looks up at you and he's like.
Did you wanna watch?
Or join?
But he's also wearing a mask that he madeat his house of like a melting orange.
Oh, man.
Oh, you saw me, man.

(18:36):
I do miss the days of thisparticular era where the idea of
band lore was exclusively ironic.
Uh, and could never be like an actualthing because we didn't have at the
time We didn't have hives yet, or that,that like deployed around fan bases.
We just had people who were overlyproud of liking bands like this and the

(18:59):
Flaming Lips, or uh, in semi analogousways, bands like the Blood Brothers
and stuff and like, it's aggressivelyweird and I like it and you didn't, but
you can come with me if you want to.
Yeah, but you never ranto your point about hives.
You never ran across them in packs.
It was one.
comic book guy character behind thecounter somewhere usually and you're

(19:19):
like, sir, I'm just Come on, man.
I'm just trying to go about my day.
Thanks for the tip I will goinvestigate it on my own and then
if I come back as passionate asyou then we can talk but just real
energy and balance right now, man
Yes, and we are going to do theequivalent of, uh, you know, an

(19:41):
out of town suburbanite walks intothe record store and says, give
me your best record, sir, please.
One of them.
And we hand you this fucking record.
Uh, and we tell you, you're goingto become a Black Moth Super
Rainbow fan before you know it.
And sure enough, like one of thethings I love about this is I think
we can dissect it because evenif the music or the artist is.

(20:03):
Unserious as we've talked about it.
There's still a lot to talk about inrelatively serious ways because it's
really interesting and it's really goodBut like one of my favorite aspects of
this record to the points that you'remaking here Is from second one of the
very first song it immediately dropsinto a hook As you go along, they'll
start playing with your disorientation,and then in other songs will start

(20:29):
to draw out the amount of time beforeyou can get to the actual underlying
hook that you're going to remember.
But I deeply love how hard it immediatelydrops into basically a halftime beat
at the very beginning of the record.
And in.
In a way that few other records door can actually sets an appropriate

(20:51):
tone for the rest of the journeythat you're going to go on.
It doesn't introduce everythingall at once, but vibe wise, it's
directly in, it's on point, it'sdirectionally accurate, and you kind
of know what you're getting into.
And like, it's a move in that sense thatfeels overly intentional and thought out.

(21:13):
And at the same time this willbe an exercise in contrasts.
We are talking about in this case, atleast one person tobacco who disclosed
in a song exploder interview in2016 that he quote, doesn't know any
instruments and became enamored witha four track recorder that his parents
gave him while he was in high school.

(21:33):
in the wildest senses of the word,completely unserious approaches to
making music that still neverthelesshas made a collection of really awesome,
hooky, memorable, uh, stuff that ifyou haven't heard it, there's a good
chance you're going to end up likingit and just be surprised that you do.

(21:54):
every characterization That Thomas Feckmakes of his own music is interesting
to me and a study in contrast and Idescribed it in the show notes as writing
the Ouroboros of elitism and nihilism.
There's like such a He has such an oldschool hipster seriousness of like No,

(22:16):
you shouldn't give a fuck like that.
And I don't either.
But, um, but also hold on.
And he's like always calibrating the,the nothing matters but everything
does or the, or vice versa or whatever.
so the first one in that regard that likereally jumps out at me, somebody asked
them like as black Moss front man, how doyou maintain such an incognito and private

(22:38):
identity in an expressive industry?
Do you feel it affects yourband's career in any way?
And he comes back withsomething like, It's easy.
I just don't put myself out there.
I just don't have the compulsion,like most oversharing musicians.
That probably does affect my career.
And it took me up until this newalbum, a later one in 2013, to really
understand that some dumb motherfuckersneed you to spell everything out for

(23:00):
them in order for them to get whatyou're doing, that includes the press.
And that affected my career in thepast to a small degree, though.
Luckily I've just had enough people.
I've had just enough people on boardnow who don't need it fed to them
through a tube and they totally get it.
In this era, in this cycle of, uh,stuff though, it was a little less edgy.

(23:21):
or maybe actually this was a late andeven later quote, he said, Oh man, I
have the worst time describing what I do.
I usually start with sayingsomething like most people don't
like it, or it's not for everyone.
And then something about itbeing electronic, et cetera.
and then I think one really importantdistinction, like talking about
contrast, the point you made when Imake stuff that I think people will
like that's black moth, super rainbow.

(23:43):
And the stuff that mightsound totally almost offensive
to people, that's tobacco.
So there's a whole other strain.
You can eject the cassette of thisepisode and go to, if you're like,
I the hippie shit, the whatever, uh,there is a version of this that exists
for like staying plugged into thematrix of 2025 and that's tobacco.

(24:03):
the really grabby one for me is thefirst track of, A record called fucked
up friends, which, you know, givesyou the thesis statement, I guess.
And it's called street trash.
And it's all more hip hoppyand low end and Dewey Cox,
bad trip, bad trip, bad trip.
and if you don't dig that one, youmight recognize solo tobacco work.

(24:28):
If you've ever watched the show SiliconValley because on the followup to fucked
up friends, a record called maniac meat.
Um, which is what it feels liketo be in your body in 2025.
Uh, the song Stretch Your Face isused as the Silicon Valley theme song.
Oh!
Sorry, this is, uh, unhelpfulfor a podcast recording.

(24:49):
That is really sendingme on some thoughts.
That's really cool.
I didn't realize that myself.
Yeah, Nihilist Analog Guy doingthe show theme song that is, uh,
a parody of all the shittiness ofthe tech age and what it wrought.
The eerily prophetic show.
Yeah,
A full yes to what you are saying.
And also, yeah, and it slaps.

(25:11):
And I always wondered why,
you
objectively good.
Yeah.
And nothing sounds like it out there.
Exactly.
And it drops immediatelyinto a halftime beat.
Like, Oh, I'm loving this move.
And I I'll mention in a moment whenwe when we talk through some of
the things that occurred to us on.
Fresh or, first intentional listensin a while because it definitely

(25:34):
very directly connects to aparticular move and artist for me.
and that's another cool realizationand a cool connecting dot.
to paint a little bit more of apicture, uh, as well as maybe talk
a little bit more as much as we can.
I mean, there's not, honestly, aton of encyclopedic information

(25:54):
for us to draw from for eitherthis artist or this record.
Um, that's part of what makesit cool to talk about, honestly.
But I think one way that you cancatch the vibe of this, especially if
Black Moth Super Rainbow is a newerartist to you, in your awareness,
is like, this is heavy aesthetics.

(26:15):
it is a capital I important that you Geton board with the feel of sort of what's
happening here And that we give you someexamples of how those aesthetics played
out even in like physical packaging andstuff because this is Once again for
it just being music really visual Andit helps you kind of fill in a lot of

(26:37):
what you're listening to you if you cancan catch that And I think that plays
out not only in Like we say like visualaesthetics, but also in the way that
this band tried to talk about itselfand market itself You've already pulled
out some solid quotes so So, Black MileSuper Rainbow was picked up by Graveface

(26:59):
Records uh, after 2005 picked them upwith a prior record called Lost Picking
Flowers in the Woods, uh, and reissuedtheir first two albums, uh, which they
had, previously released by themselves.
So, They already have a prettyexperimental record company
picking up on this from totallyindie, self published type stuff.

(27:21):
But if you try to place yourself inthe perspective of a record company in
the mid aughts trying to capitalize oneverything we've sort of pointed out
so far, but also taking advantage ofthat true moment of like, weird music
got marketed for the first time in avery long time, maybe ever, maybe not.
At scale and so people were tryingto figure out how to get you on board

(27:42):
with some fucking weird stuff and Thatresults in things like this description
from gray face records about about thisalbum quote Deep in the woods of western
Pennsylvania, vocoders hum amongst theflowers and scents which bubble under
the leaf strewn ground while fluteswhistle in the wind and beats bounce to

(28:06):
the soft drizzle of a warm acid rain.
As the sun peeks out from betweenthe clouds, the organic oral
concoction of Black Moth Super Rainbowstarts to glisten above the trees.
On the next episode of hella tubbies.
We're like ketatubbies, like, dude,

(28:28):
That's what I'm going tostart calling Elon Musk.
my brain is just casting members of therest of that show, including the son.
Oh, that's, that's deeply badwhere my brain is going now.
The sun, the sun is just thescreaming sun from Rick and Morty.

(28:52):
that's too inviting to, to take that bait.
Uh, I'm going to pull back,but that's a nice description.
I think of what people are trying to do.
If they're going to hook youinto this music before you
get a chance to listen to it.
Uh, it is.
further from the edges of whatyou might anticipate than most
things that even in this podcast,we sort of ask you to pick up.

(29:15):
And yet, as Kyle, you and I have alreadytalked about, but bringing in that theme
of contrasts, this is both deeply weirdmusic and possibly the most immediately
accessible thing we've talked about in
A while.
Yeah.
Yeah, like more than Paramore even

(29:35):
Yes.
and like maybe more than Olivia RodrigoLike this is the poppiest pop album
that we have maybe covered period Ijust kept thinking about how it felt
like listening to the Beatles in themiddle of a hallucination, you know,
all the fractals of time and spacecrystal break and you hear the White

(29:58):
Album or something somewhere, and youcan like barely perceive it because you
can't perceive dimension or direction.
Honestly, to be unusually fair to theBeatles, there is a lot of that lineage
here, and specifically from theirweirder records, and the way that they

(30:19):
band and record makes me feel morecomplimentary about the Beatles for the
first time maybe ever in my life actually.
Yeah.
I mean, and giving, in this case, thenlike giving the Beatles their flowers
for like their impact on psychedelia,which is definitely what came out here.
1000%.
Yeah, even, not only will some ofthe tone and approaches in this music

(30:41):
remind you of, you know, to me, moreRevolver era stuff but even on a
music theory level, a lot of whatBlackmail Super Rainbow here deploys.
It's just like modal harmony with itself.
And that's exactly what the Beatlesdid to introduce that shifting
feeling of psychedelia over pop.

(31:03):
That then the Beach Boys wouldgo on through things like
Pet Sounds to just perfect.
Which maybe that's a note when we needto find a way to talk more about pet
sounds again one day, but there's thisreally cool lineage all the way through
the 60s all the way up to here, but thatnow is not only introducing some of the
later electronic stuff that would come inthe decades after, the 60s and 70s, but

(31:28):
then on top of that layers in the whatwould become modern production technique,
really dirty forms of production, uh,that made things feel fuzzy while also
being just on the other side of, likewe've talked about many times the loudness
war and evolution of production there.
And like, this was around the timewhere you could legitimately start

(31:49):
to take equipment that you could buy,software that you could buy your.
silver ass MacBook that would pinwheelspin half the time while you were
doing stuff, but like everythinghad gotten just good enough to where
you could software purchase yourway to something sounding right.
And then because, production hadmore of an established sound at

(32:12):
this point, you could sort of cheatyour way over to it sounding right.
You can make it soundloud at the end of it.
And that sort of contributed
you were smart or reckless enough.
Yeah, in that sense, it also sortof calls up the lineage of man,
you mentioned hipster Ouroborosand, uh, nihilism and elitism.

(32:38):
So let's just mention the band atthe exact dot center of that one,
and that would be Neutral Milk Hotel.
the, record that everyone loves, right?
The aeroplane over the sea.
the aeroplane over the sea.
Jesus Christ!
Oh, yeah, just, ugh.
But a lot, a lot of people, some peoplemaybe unironically love that record, I'm

(33:02):
not sure, but that record represents,the Neutral Milk Hotel one, represented
a like audacity in self recording inwhat became like bedroom DIY recording
of otherwise weird indie shit thatlike wasn't even close to being worth
investment by a record company and like,that along with, you know, some of their

(33:27):
other eventual contemporaries, likemaybe Animal Collective or early Animal
Collective, especially like that soundof, we can make this good enough and
we don't have to do that good of a jobrecording it or producing it in order
to get to where we want to go reallynot only blossomed during this time, but
like a lot of us got used to that methodof people making music because that is.

(33:53):
Especially for, probably five or 10years, like if you heard an up and coming
band, the first thing that you liked andappreciated from them was some garage band
ass shit that sounded real, like handshakemurders are coming to mind to me in the
moment where it's like, yeah, but if youcan get ahold of the one before the one
that you started liking, you're going toget a real idea of how everything, uh,

(34:16):
I always think of when you broughtover the unmastered, extremely loud
Maylene demos before one came out,and it was just the most blown out.
Was like, the weirdest Sonic Youthtype blowout, like, destruction unit
level blowout, it sounded crazy andnothing like what it would ultimately

(34:38):
become, but like, we rode around, itwas like almost a badge of honor to,
to get the weird, the weird shit, the
the advanced ones.
Yeah, the advanced copies.
Oh yeah, it was a huge deal when we couldget the half shitty pre version of, uh,
back before Under Oath built its ownshark to jump over, right after they're

(35:00):
only chasing safety, they had to find theGreat Line, and like, that was a highly
anticipated record for a lot of people,and a version of that leaked before it
got actually mastered and finalized, andlike, everyone I knew was listening to
that, like, that particular version of it,
Man.
none of that exists the same way

(35:21):
RAR file,
yeah,
trading.
yeah, getting, getting textmessages that cost ten cents a
piece from someone who's going, Doyou know how to open a rare file?
It's pronounced rare.
Get off the computer.
You have a virus now.
Stop.

(35:42):
It was worth it.
I burned that CD.
Well, just download it on mom's computerfirst and then transfer it over to yours.
Back when a computer was a place,and not in your pocket all the time.
Yeah.
I laughed at that the first time that Isaw it, but that was a cultural shift.
When the computer moved from beinga stationary place, an event that

(36:04):
you could walk in and out of,into, a thing, happening to you,
all the
room, yes.
Perpetually occupiedby your little brother.
Who, who is definitely not looking atwhatever it was that you thought they were
looking at before you came into the room.
They were definitely playing HotWheels online or Roller Coaster Tycoon.

(36:26):
Please don't worry.
For.
Sure.
Check their browser history, see ifthey know how to, how to erase it yet.
mean,
They won't.
So do you think that there's anythingbackground lore or detail wise that's

(36:47):
important to talk about before wekind of talk about first or new fresh
impressions of what we listen to?
just really quickly, you've hiton lore, you've hit on aesthetics,
the lore is nobody knows whenthis was actually really recorded.
Just, he's been really prolific,Thomas Feck, and so this stuff just

(37:08):
sort of Happened in the mid twothousands came out in May of 2007.
Put out on great basis.
You mentioned a DIY studio set up.
In or around Pittsburgh, the, thelore is that they, you know, went off
and did shit in the woods, and maybethey were a cult, maybe they weren't.
But the reality of it is somewhere aroundPittsburgh, wherever he lived, Thomas Feck

(37:29):
was doing this pretty much by himself.
And the, the personnel eventuallyaround him were his live outfit.
Were and r the artwork.
the aesthetic is like an immediate draw.
So we've talked aboutForever Heavy opening track.
Every melody is a chorus levelmelody, um, and it draws you in

(37:49):
immediately, but the visuals do too.
You can judge a book by its cover.
so two things about the vinyl, whichis like, this is right when vinyl
really started becoming a thing again.
And, the rainbow face on the covercomes from a garbage pail kid.
So there's a huge influence of 80s horrorand like shitty low grade VHS culture.

(38:17):
is more everywhere now, uh, and accountslike everything is terrible and like
places on the internet that haveproliferated, like lo fi weird refractions
of the ugliness of normie culture.
but big earnest fans ofstuff like Garbage Pail Kids.
Uh, and so the, the rainbow.
That a face is sort of slappedon was Stinkerbell or Fairy

(38:41):
Mary, the Garbage Pail Kid.
And it is literally a fairythrowing up a rainbow.
and then the vinyl, one of the OGruns was a double bubblegum pink
vinyl with gold splashes and agatefold sleeve with a scratch and
sniff bubblegum scent front cover.
So like 80s, you know, golden bookslevel weirdness, just trying to call

(39:06):
up a hallucination of a memory of beingthe pretty much exact age that we are.
And coming up in Reagan'sconsumer Reagan and Bush one and
Clinton's consumerist America.
but not like in a bad, serious rageagainst the machine anyway, just in
a sort of Absence of seriousness.

(39:28):
Like, man, isn't everything weird.
Here's a melting rainbow face.
All right, turn on themusic, play it loud.
I'm grateful for that recommendation.
That's exactly what I did.
And it was nice to relieve myself fromthe regular sensation of mostly listening
and trying to absorb, but also searching,thinking, trying to notice, trying to

(39:55):
take note as I'm listening to stuff.
It was much easier to releasemyself from all of that.
And when I did do that, I did find,interestingly enough, There are plenty
of times that I hook into, anyway, plentyof things I do take note of that I don't
need to because even at a very base level,the hooks here will transport me to other

(40:20):
songs, and other artists entirely, butin a different sense than just, the,
Sort of lineage of influence over time.
It's not quite a they remind me of someoneelse who was a You know an influence on
them or they're doing something new withthis type of music not really It's just

(40:40):
that the hooks are so good and they'relike They're so good without having to
have a bunch of layers on top of them.
Like generally speaking, it's just asynth and or a vocoder doing something
interesting in harmony with itselfand then doing it that same way a few
times over that song at just the rightcadence that just all feels right.

(41:05):
And because of that simplicity, Ifelt like I could see this band.
Um, and I can, I can give someexamples of that, but I think just
the In general, encouraging people aswe turn to how to start approaching
this record, just pre lean back.

(41:25):
Let it come all the way to you.
Let yourself be surprised.
And let yourself kind of hangin there for the journeys that
they're going to take you on.
Especially through the kind of Timing ofdifferent songs, uh, in the way that all
of them feel exactly the same, and yeteach one is slightly different and sort

(41:45):
of takes you through a different path,uh, of the different kind of palettes that
they're painting with all of this stuff.
And that feeling is intensified ifyou take all of the extra material
from this era, which he later releasedas a record called extra flavor.
And you play it all as one line.

(42:06):
So it's like a 30, youFive, 40 minute record.
It's pretty lean because it's abunch of minute and a half, two
minute little vignette type things.
And then if you add all the extraflavor stuff, it's like an hour and
a half, 35 or 40 pieces of music.
it's like a regular hot tub and extradeep hot tub type of experience.

(42:30):
Yeah, and some of thatstuff on the extra release.
Give some interesting context to, tothe rest of these songs and feels once
again, especially mid 2000s because Ithink what comes out even more in some
of those extra release songs, which wewon't talk as much about, but like, I
think I can really clearly discern theModest Mouse Decembrist bent in a lot

(42:56):
of those songs of the kind of acousticguitar being a weird folksy troubadour
in a fucked up reality thing that we wereall doing or that a lot or that a lot
of those bands were doing for a while.
You can feel a little bitmore of that come out.
But it also just made me.
Appreciate how dense dandelion gumwas when they had all of that to

(43:21):
choose from it feels the appropriateamount of dense without ever going
kind of too strong out or simplistic.
Which is a crazy thing to say about 16or 17 distinct cuts of music like that.
It's a lot of different flavors,no pun intended, but it does.
You're absolutely right.
I feel like the exact right curationand the exact right amount of things.

(43:46):
So maybe to this end, I'd love totalk about some things that just
came to mind for me listeningto this, uh, some of which are.
Conceptually related, someof them are literal music.
conceptually, this is one of thosemoments where I'm just going to
kind of share a thing that came up,even if I don't know totally how
to explain it, but it works for me.

(44:07):
For whatever reason, listening tothis, especially after I settled
into it a bit, This felt likethe show Adventure Time to me.
okay, you're nodding, so
Hundo P baby.
yeah, yeah.
yeah.
I would talk about I think CartoonNetwork and Adult Swim Universe is

(44:30):
a spiritual cousin of this big time.
And yes, for the weirdness of things likethe, you know, Adult Swim bumpers between
the shows and all the weird vibe and tonestuff that they did, yes, that's true.
But also specifically theway that Adventure Time is
Can be a show for adults.

(44:52):
They are also simultaneouslymaking an adult show for you.
But it's not, it's not that in the sensethat they are making a children's show
with adult grotesque humor layered inin a way that kids can't understand.
See, to me much like Adventure Time orsomething like that, no, it's just both.

(45:15):
It's just both at the same time.
It's just really well done, really wellconceptualized, and clever and imaginative
in the way that captures both a childand an adult who's willing to just
sit down and watch something about theBubblegum Princess for just a moment,
because actually, if you'll sit aroundlong enough in that show, they'll drop

(45:36):
some shit on you that'll make you thinkfor a minute, and it's pretty cool.
Mike.
That's what this all feels like to me.
It's ostensibly ridiculouson the surface of the thing.
It doesn't pretend to be serious, itdoesn't try to convince you it's serious,
but acting like it's not, it's notten serious people in a trench coat.

(45:57):
it's just what it is, And you havethe ability to engage with it in a way
that, like, feels good, in a way that'shard to get to with other records that
are moving you to a place, or tellingyou something, or painting a picture.
This is just, to me, creatinga lot more of a setting.

(46:20):
And that is Bolstered by the reality thatmuch, much like my general experience
in life, you don't know what the fuckhe's saying on this record anyway.
And then once you realize that, andyou go look into the lyrics, cause you
think, maybe there's a reason why Ican't totally understa No, there isn't.
No, there isn't.

(46:41):
The lyrics themselves, it's nothing.
It's a bunch of nothing.
It is like, artistic equivalentof like, fucking Seinfeld.
It's a thing about nothing that initself is cool because it exists that
way with that level of nonchalance.
And like, I had forgotten that thatwas true about this record, immediately

(47:03):
remembered it once we started listeningagain, and like, found a way to lean
all the way into that sensation of it.
And I have missed this way oflistening to music, to be honest.
so a handful of things totallyagree with the adventure time thing.
I specifically called out that foreverheavy, like really exemplifies that.

(47:23):
And I know we've, we've hit onthe, this opening track a number of
times, but after there's a littlebit of vote quarter introduction.
It dissipates into an instrumentalbreak just after the minute mark.
And that's when it feels like thecurtains have been pulled back on
the world, the adventure time world.

(47:45):
And you can just sort of settle into your, you know, your jet pack
roller coaster seat or whatever,and take the sort of adventure ride
with the thing, it really does.
It doesn't feel like.
World building or or what it'sit's I'm really loving this
idea of it's the opposite ofanything You know, it's not silly.
It's not serious.

(48:06):
It's unserious.
It's the absence of it's interestingthat this record Aesthetically is
so visual But like what comes tomind for me when I think about that
instrumental break and think aboutyou providing Really specific visual
cue with the idea of adventure time.
It's not literally calling to mindthe visuals of Adventure Time in

(48:26):
my mind, but the spirit of it wherethe instrumental break clears the
visuals out of my field and invitesme to build my own visualizations.
Like some Dream Corp LLC shit, youknow, like build, build as you go.
so very aligned with you on that.

(48:48):
I have a bit of a different tack on thelyrics bit, and maybe I'm too much of
a sucker for stuff like the creativeact, you know, the, the Rick Rubinesque.
Ooh, yeah, it's, that's acleverly constructed sentence
and I can build a philosophy.
Or a religion around that.
That's like, that'sall religion is, right?
It's just good, good words designed topoint your consciousness in a direction.

(49:12):
just manipulation.
the lyrics do feel likemantras to me though.
And they're silly or like unseriousones, but they feel like a way to
reground and touch grass that old JeffBuckley touch grass thing again, They
clear you out to prepare for the doingyour own visualization type of thing.

(49:33):
So in Forever Heavy, somethinglike, you know, living in a field,
you're forever heavy, lying in thesun, you're forever heavy, chewing
all the gum, you're forever heavy.
And just the repeating of that thingand the simplicity of that thing.
Dog, that's mindfulness 101 to me andyou and I are much more practiced in
our discipline toward mindfulness now,but I remember reading wherever you

(49:57):
go, there you are and being like, Oh,it's exactly what I thought it was.
And it's nothing likewhat I thought it was.
And even just occupying those two thoughtssimultaneously is like the first step.
In getting toward thediscipline of mindfulness.
And then there's lying out here.
We shine, melt me, melt me, melt me.

(50:18):
That's definitely a mantraor going back to aesthetics.
You read the back cover of this vinyland you see, titles like jump into my
mouth and breathe the stardust or whenthe sun grows on your tongue dog i'm
buying a record with song titles likethat sight unseen i don't care if it's
the worst music i've ever heard in mylife kudos on making my imagination

(50:39):
explode like a popsicle in my mouthbut in the jump into my mouth he says
bring us hope start a sunrise we haveknown and find our way home Mantra.
Love it.
and then, my favorite, Whenthe sun grows on your tongue,
you won't want to stop him.
You're gonna die.
We're all gonna die.

(51:00):
Come on, man.
write all the time.
And getting that dead simple is suchan act of pure trust in yourself.
Or pure nonchalance.
That whatever you say,it doesn't matter anyway.
I actually think that lyrically thisis the perfect intersection point

(51:20):
for you and me because it exposes thefarce of caring about it in the like
inverse way that Kurt Cobain did.
Kurt Cobain was a silly lyric writer.
where he was purposely tryingto subvert it all the time.
This is like, maybe it's good.
Maybe it's not.
Whatever.
I love.
I never thought aboutthe lyrics once ever.
I never worried or wondered about what hewas saying under the heavy vote quarter.

(51:44):
but taking some time to think about itmade it even more interesting to me.
Like it did enrich even thoughit's not supposed to, but maybe
it is, but maybe it doesn't.
Who knows?
Who cares?
Like it's a no lose proposition, I guess.
And that's just sort ofthe brilliance of it.
stuck out or surprisedyou or gave you a vibe?

(52:06):
A lot.
I'll mention the music now, but I willjust say, I took a note that feels like
it maps to what you were just explaining,and I wrote that it feels like meditation
for children to listen to this record, and
Parentheses compliment.
yeah, yeah, yes.
meditation for children at itsown level is like more serious

(52:29):
than meditation for adults.
So I would be coming fromthe opposite direction.
But yes, definitely in a good way.
and idea that these lyrics and words.
Exist, but I don't have to attack.
I don't have to hang the meaning ofthe surrounding music on them in order
to either get them or appreciate them.

(52:51):
And yes, so to that end, yeah, weare meeting exactly in the middle of
the way that we often approach bothlike lyrics and vocals and songs.
This has been a fun moment, but I think.
What shocked me even more was howfast a simple synth line would
take me somewhere else entirely.

(53:12):
And to start with the one thatI've been hinting at a bit, but
it's just was immediate for me.
Forever Heavy has a really,really, really similar Tempo and
feel to the song Waterfalls byClam Casino off the Rainforest
EP, which also came out in 2007.

(53:33):
And like,
Both like, if you were trying toput the sounds in your mouth, both
would have a, say a similar texture.
You know what I
well said!
And I mean that with all of my heart, yes!
Yeah, and yes, in both records withstrong visual aesthetics associated with

(53:53):
them, thanks to album art and thanksto this particular moment in time where
album art kind of still meant a thingmuch more than it does these days.
But so Forever Heavy immediatelytakes me in that direction.
And then I start to feel out a fewother things that come to mind, some
obvious, some a little bit more, this'llbe a fun pen to put in somebody's

(54:17):
whatever, to go to a different record.
But.
You know, as you go along, even,even songs like Sunlits you can draw
out the Daft Punk record that wouldcome not long after this, right?
The Random Access Memories.
Like, you can, you can really hear itand hear what would become some very
popular, You know, a very popular recordin its own right, but you can hear that

(54:44):
everyone was sort of open to that sortof thing and, you know, it found its
popular apex there in Daft Punk, but,
That's so brilliant and such an internetera thing that calls to mind, you know,
we had a couple of years of death gripsreally like exploding in the underground

(55:04):
and then a year later we get Jesus
like Daft Punk trying to make athing into the zeitgeist, which is.
Less of a thing now that everything iseverywhere all the time, but there were
still some of these moments of like,this feels like a genuinely new thing.
Who's going to be theperson to commercialize it.
yep, so then kind of smaller,outcroppings almost from that.

(55:29):
When I think about the stuff that remindsme of Random Access Memory, but also like
Tron era Daft Punk from this record, italso reminds me of one of the big boy
records that he dropped, so Sir LuciusLeftfoot, The Son of Chico Dusty it
That was the, that's the first one.
That's the like tangerine.

(55:50):
You ain't
yeah, uh, yeah,
God, that's such a good record.
so it is, and it's great inits own right, but it, yeah.
Thank you.
You will hear almost one to one the,Oh, if I can get a good synth hook
and a little vocoder thing going,I've got a hook for an entire song.
And I think it's coolto connect those dots.

(56:11):
I'm sure just a melody or ahook at some point just reminded
me of something specific.
But the more I listened to it,the more I started to feel like I
could actually build out a worldof synth and vocoder stuff that.
would never go too far in one directionor another, but really encompassed
a surprising mixture of artists whoalmost Occupied this type of music

(56:36):
for a time, and then sort of movedin other directions throughout their
career, whereas Black Mouth SuperRainbow, and tobacco in general, just
like, was stationed here, at this time,doing just the weird version of it.
but, I think also just gives somecontext to how something this oddball,

(56:58):
Could have been in an indie zeitgeistright at this time, there was a lot
of uniformity in the, this littlesynth type genre that was gaining some
popularity during this time and it justreminded me of a ton of that stuff.
And then on a longer time scale.
This record made me startdoing weird math equations with

(57:21):
bands that we've talked about.
and I think hopefully this will eitherinvite some people in who aren't
convinced yet, or send some peopleback out to other manifestations
of some of this weird energy.
One equation that came to mind was theyhave King Gizzard energy with Canned

(57:43):
Stamina with The unseriousness of like aSufjan Stevens where it's like everything
is weird, but good But we're here forit and we really like it and we want you
to like it But we don't care too muchif you don't like it But also we will
now be doing this without stopping fora significant period of time and you can

(58:04):
come along or you can be bothered thatwe're going to play this one kind of
singular piece of music for a pretty longtime and repeat some really good hooks
over and over until you start to feelmildly hypnotized by the whole thing.
I love that equation.
I would add one variableand that's swish a house.
It's like if you took a live bootleg ofthat super group all on one stage, last

(58:28):
Waltz style, uh, like we just saw Kingis so like silver cord King is where they
bring out the big tray of wires and knobsand do dads and they get Sufjan out there
doing some like weird stuff and demo.
Doing some like stuff as well.
And then you took that whole recordingand you base boosted it and you slowed it.

(58:51):
Way the hell down.
That's black mo.
Super rainbow.
Where you're like, I likeyou, but you're crazy man.
Was there something in that tea?
because you could adored in your neck.
That's awesome.

(59:13):
What else stood out to you?
I would say two things.
one general analog mess.
and tobacco has had sort of like, hasbeen on a spectrum of his relationship
with analog mess and like feelingentrapped by it eventually in his career.
But it's like, it's verymuch the thing here.
There was a great, if maybe a littlepretentious essay that I read that

(59:38):
basically the thesis of it was.
The analogness of what is like ostensiblya synth or electronic record makes you
contemplate its relationship to matterand energy like analog in the digital era.
There's also a drawn out analogy tothe films of Federico Fellini in there.

(59:59):
So it's, you want to talkabout the elitism and nihilism
or Boris it's a mid bite.
it's a mid body snake by, the analogous,I think you can really hear in here's
another great title, neon syrup for thecemetery sisters, where the first thing
you hear is a lot of headroom in therecording and like tape hiss and stuff.

(01:00:22):
And then it continues to be in the song.
There's also subtleties.
The analogous doesn't really tryto draw attention to itself where
I contrast it with a Jack white.
Where, you know, elephant hadthe slapped right on the thing.
Like this whole thing wasrecorded with tape in one room.

(01:00:43):
One man physically carriedit with his bare hands.
You know, it's not thatsticky sort of thing.
All love to Jack and especially Meg White.
all the analogness is subtle.
in my opinion, mostlysubtle in my opinion.
So like the back half of Lollipop'sAccord, another great title.
there's.
Really tasteful delay and reverb inthe way like there's a lot of like

(01:01:06):
beat switch, clearly some hip hopculture influence that makes it really
different than sixties and seventies.
Psychedelia.
It's like kind ofrefracted back into itself.
so some delay and reverband lollipops accord.
And then in, they live in the meadow.
There's a, the drum pattern and thenit back mask and it does that in the
loop over and over, but they're not.

(01:01:28):
aggressive, there's subtleanalog moments and effects.
And then I think the other thing thatjumps out at me is obviously like synth
is the star here, but it could be reallyone trick, but there is a variety of
scent, tones, tastes, moments, whatever.
So three that I wouldcall out really quickly.

(01:01:49):
the first one being when the sungrows on your tongue, there's Nice
modulation on the high end synthand then great tone on the low end.
Never got to see these guys live, buthearing the low end on that song, I
was really imagining what it would belike to hear that, like, almost like if
they had a Leslie cabinet or somethingwhere you can really sort of feel the

(01:02:12):
chunkiness and the vibrato of the low end.
A really nice tone.
And then on the next, I actuallythink this is a three track
sequence that I'm about to say.
Yes.
spinning cotton candy ina shack made of shingles.
Say that three times fast.
the synth plays a more ambient role andit swirls around a really tight bass, B

(01:02:34):
A S S E bass of a really good soundingsort of Spector or Ringo Starr drum loop
and, slightly blown out acoustic guitar.
So it, plays the right function.
We talked on the me without youepisode about how the different songs
have different instrument stars.
it's sort of a bit of thatflavor, you know, where it's not
the same one trick every time.

(01:02:54):
And then one of my favorite songson the record, or certainly like
my favorite black moth archetype oflayers, uh, is in drippy eye where it's.
Mellotron against monosynth andthen the we like that, that type
of thing that, feels like a realsignature sound for tobacco.

(01:03:16):
another example of that would be onthat besides record extra flavor dark
forest joggers, which theremin thing.
So would be very easy for thisto be like synth AC DC, where
it's like, here's the thing.
Here's the thing again.
Here's the thing again.
Here's the thing at a different tempo.
Here's the thing at the same tempo asthe first song, but inverted or whatever.

(01:03:36):
it's a very tight formula, but butthey write it on the board and lots of
different fonts or something like that.
and that keeps it really interesting.
but it's all got like a real cohesivevocabulary because sent this though.
the real anchor of the thing.
Cohesive vocabulary is agood way of describing it.
I'd also say That I'm surprisedto say, this is kind of like an

(01:03:57):
audiophile record potentially.
I don't really understand how thatcomes to be with what we've talked
about so far in the, nonchalance withwhich this was constructed and produced.
Not to say there's not Seriousnessin the artistry, right?
We're not trying to misrepresentthat so much as there is not a lot

(01:04:20):
of talk about the seriousness of it.
And most of the context that wehave indicates a sort of open
handedness about the whole thing.
So to have created somethingthat is sonically interesting
enough in this particularmoment in time with these tools.
To have it become something that is trulyinteresting to listen to on different

(01:04:43):
audio delivery devices is a shock andmostly a delight, but a huge shock and
to your point or comment about like onsome of the songs, theoretically being
able to like turn up, uh, certain lowends and different bits about it, like
this, as much as any other record Ican remember lately, uh, will, Change

(01:05:07):
its face if you change its EQ, it willshapeshift based on whatever you're
listening to it on, whatever that spaceis and moves with your attention as well.
definitely one of those, uh, onceyou start thinking about a particular
car, all of a sudden, everywhereyou go, you can start to find

(01:05:30):
that car wherever you're looking.
Similarly, you can hook yourselfinto particular aspects of this
record to me, like a lot easierthan most of the intentionality
you have to bring to focus in onsomething particular on other records.
and so this is.
Maybe counterintuitively both a tremendouslike audiophile headphone record and also

(01:05:52):
not necessarily the easiest one to get alot out of by doing like a sitting active
intentional listen to the whole thing.
I'm not saying you can't, but it's.
It's a different experience than tryingto trace, you know, a jazz master
through their particular instrumentand how they contribute to a record.

(01:06:15):
It's a little bit more like, Iwonder what's going to occur to
me this time and just lettingyourself cruise through it that way.
Music for airports.
Inside your brain.
We've mentioned this a little bit, butjust to sort of say directly then, we try
to, as much as possible, bring forwarda sense of artist intent, as we can draw

(01:06:36):
from, generally speaking, interviews withthe artists, or interviews with historians
about a given record, or whatever.
First of all, there are noFuckin Black Moth Super Rainbow
historians that I know of.
So settle down.
I think we're, we're becomingcard carrying after this episode.
Maybe so.
This an husker do.

(01:06:57):
Much to your chagrin.
Um.
so we have, um, a dearth of, of allof that source material here, not only
because this isn't necessarily an artistthat reached the scale of impact of a
lot of the folks we talked about but alsobecause, like we said, when, when Tobacco

(01:07:19):
does get interviewed about this, he givesa verbal shrug in your general direction
and basically sort of says like, well,it works, And you're asking me questions.
So who won this competition?
so we don't have a lot to draw fromnor a lot that we have to like stand
up as a structure to like understandwhat's happening on this record.

(01:07:40):
Uh, and that's neither good nor bad,but just a thing that changes depending
on which music we're approaching.
But there is a quote vague concept albumhappening here that is through the lyrics
that we've already talked about thatare In a sense, both, like we've said,
both introspective mantras and sort ofnonsensical stories in their own right.

(01:08:06):
There is a central theme of, uh,witches in the forest creating candy.
Sure.
Sure.
Um, you could have said almostany combination of words
there and I would believe you.
But you can at least have thatin mind and sort of apply it.
And I think.

(01:08:26):
Understanding that that, as far aswe know, is the maximum amount of
intentionality that has been appliedon a thematic or narrative level,
is sort of an important fact inand of itself to carry into this.
The music is dense andcool and interesting.
A lot of times we talk about musicthat's dense and cool and interesting.

(01:08:48):
That maps to a theme ornarrative that is also such.
Not true.
Really here.
And that is a nice break.
I would like to just hear alittle bit more about witches in
the forest making candy for now.
Take me on this weird psychedelictrip into midnight gospel level.

(01:09:09):
Weird things where I can go back andremember just like that show, what it
feels like to be both terrified andsettled all at the same time somehow.
And like that feeling gets brought outhere, but I think just as we try to point
people towards underlying consistenttruths about music, we can also point you

(01:09:33):
in directions on certain records and go.
You don't have to go over there.
There is nothing there.
Pfft.
Ha
Yeah.
I think it's just a show don't tellway of saying, come with me and you'll
be in a world of pure imagination.
Essentially, like, take it as a mentor ofmine has said many times, seriously, but

(01:09:55):
not literally and the sort of esotericaof all that extends to the commitment
to remaining esoteric so that you willjust get out of your head and into your
imagination of the music extends to theirrefusal to use their government names.
So instead of, you know, Slipknot zerothrough nine, you have Tobacco or Thomas

(01:10:20):
Feck, you have the Seven Fields ofOphelion for Maureen Boyle, who's also
a great photographer with an Etsy store.
Look her up.
If or not, who's the drummer, Donna Kyler.
Steve sleeve, I assume, but all caps, STV,SLV that's Steve Rydell, also of the hood
internet, the early tens mashup Kings.

(01:10:43):
And, um, in another late aughts,early tens artifact the Tumblr
site album tacos, where they justinsert tacos in the album artwork.
That's it.
That's the bit.
That's the tweet.
and someone who I could find virtuallyno information on whatsoever, who also

(01:11:03):
hung in the back at the live shows,the other synth player, PonyDiver.
So wherever you are PonyDiver,I hope you're doing well, man.
Someone just went, I am.
Thank you.
Yeah.
I
not listening to this.
He's a, he's a coder or something.
He's doing something totallydifferent now and just making,

(01:11:26):
making, making music for fun.
I don't think I've everwanted you to be wrong more.
I'm going to remember this moment.
I hope to hear fromPony Driver, Pony Diver.
I hope to hear from this individual.
If you get this far intoit, we think this is great.
I can hardly imagine that there isan artist who would be less likely

(01:11:47):
to listen to a podcast episodeabout themselves than tobacco or
any of these people in his orbit.
I think he would rather pull hisexoskeleton inside out than endure
what we are doing right now.
This is what, this is for everybody else.
Tremendous vote of confidence.

(01:12:08):
I think then, now that we have probablyeffectively touched on the Nonchalant
weirdness across the board of all ofthis stuff, down to just, like you said,
just not even actually knowing who thefuck is in this band at any given time,
or necessarily what they're doing.

(01:12:29):
I think a few things sort of come out tome as where we can start going from here.
And again, we, as a matter of sort ofprinciple, try to stay really disciplined
to the idea of, not only talking abouthow to think about a record and take
it in fresh, but then we try to talkabout, intent and influence and how

(01:12:53):
you can pay a lot of attention to that.
And then further, you know,for, you know, so many of the
artists that we cover, like the.
Long tale of influence across music andother forms of art, and then everything
else that that sort of downstream haskicked off, not to sell anyone short,
including the actual and, legitimateinfluence this band has had on others.

(01:13:18):
At the same time, once again, the, rawamount of source material that we're
drawing from here is just fundamentallydifferent because of not only this artist,
but this record and how it sits with theother types of records that we cover.
So, with that being said, I think a fewthings are worth going to from here.
So, one would be Just making sure thatwe hit on the sort of tools of recording

(01:13:43):
we've talked about since and vocodersBut going just a little bit further
into that and mentioning especiallywith vocoders I think we both come up
with some some ways for people to go.
What is that?
Again, it's in all of these other songsthat you're thinking of and it's, it's
got a real interesting lineage of usage.

(01:14:04):
So talking a little bit about thoseinstruments but then also just maybe
quickly covering both the maybe thingsthat weren't direct influences on this
man, but like we've talked about allthe genres around what they're doing
here all the way from the sixties on up.
Spiritual ascendance.
and then, maybe going directly theninto a fast forward future of where

(01:14:28):
can you allow this to take you?
Um, I think all of those things sortof operate more closely to one another
than some other records that we cover.
Uh, and on top of it, the exercise of,Focusing on something particular in this
record and then allowing yourself todiscover new things from this record.
Those exercises are also moreclosely intertwined, I think here

(01:14:51):
than on other records where thosecan sort of be separate exercises.
So mid proposing that kind ofstructure from here on out but I know
that we wanted to touch on thingslike the vocoders in particular.
You mentioned a song underVocoders that kind of excited
me that you brought this up.
And now I want to know how all these songsare related to one another in your head.

(01:15:12):
Which one are you talking
Oh, Hide and Seek, man.
The, to me the most underappreciatedthing that was very popular for a minute.
That song rips.
And I know that people endedup just calling it the trippy
song because it showed up on aWB show or some shit one time.
Something like that, I don't know.

(01:15:33):
But like, I legitimately think
The OC fans are gonna be mad at you, bro.
That's what it was.
They're too busy notlistening to this podcast.
What are OC fans doing now?
Adam Brody just had a bigthing on the SAG AFTRA awards.

(01:15:55):
He and Leighton Meesterjust had a big moment.
So very weird that you're bringingthe OC back into my consciousness.
Or maybe I inadvertentlyam with Imogen Heap.
So image in heaps hide andseek, not technically a vocoder
Yes.
Or, you know, so I've been told,but like, let's say in the realm of
sort of keyboardy vocal effectors

(01:16:18):
Yep.
that aren't synthesized vocals thatare not Peter Frampton tube talk
box.
Thank you.
Yes.
Imogen heaps, hide andseek earth, wind and fires.
Let's groove yellows.

(01:16:38):
Mr. Blue sky sky, which uses it in alittle bit more of a talk boxy fashion
around the guitar solo and stuff.
craft works to the robots, whichuses it in the, in like probably
the most literal way of all of thesetracks, Tame Impalas, let it happen.
I am loathe, I will say, toward drawingpeople to Tame Impala in comparison

(01:16:59):
to this band because I think it's likea cheap wink at modern psychedelia.
Both artists are great.
Kevin Parker and Thomas Feck, both likesingular visionary artists, but like, I
don't want the, the Tame Impala tractorbeam orbit anywhere near this cause
it's like entirely different energies.

(01:17:21):
It's like different mood ringcolors, I'll say, Much respect
to both Neil Young's album.
Trans has a lot of great vocoder on it.
And then trans AMS album, we'reprobably going to talk about like.
Krautrock type stuff.
Motoric type stuff.
Trans Am was a great postrock slash motoric band.

(01:17:43):
also really, I think the visionof mostly one person as well.
They have a record called Future Worldwhere there's some good vocoder on it.
the other really, really big example hasbecome Especially big thanks to TikTok
and I didn't make the connection untilsomebody took me to see her at Big Ears.
Here's, here's the Big Ears effect again.

(01:18:05):
See me being like a hugeevangelist for this festival.
Laurie Anderson with Oh Superman,which is the TikTok sound where
people are like telling spookystories about relatives who died and
stuff like So stuff from the beyond.
So there's like an etherealtrippy quality to that.
And I think she uses it toreally, really genius effect.

(01:18:26):
So that's a whole long list, but Iwould say the image and heap and the
Laurie Anderson are two really, reallybrilliant uses of synthesized vocals.
and if you want to go all the way in theopposite direction to a real Reddit shit
posts, use of synthesized vocals, theold here comes Pac Man, that's a bit Liam

(01:18:48):
Lynch y. I think we're just going to haveto link to that when we post the episode.
But that's one of myfavorite OG era viral videos.
Cause it's very strange.
And that's, I'll just leave it at that.
Google here comes back, man.
You also mentioned, like we talkedabout Scent, but Melotron, your boy John
Paul Jones being like a great forebear.

(01:19:08):
Of the Mellotron world,very interesting instrument.
Like, I think there is a thread ofinteresting instruments worth exploring.
We shared in a previous episode.
I don't remember which one that JoshHomme clip about, Glock and spiel fun
machine, vibraphone, whatever, whatever.
There's like a very specificstrain of electronic slash analog

(01:19:30):
equipment here with vocoders,Mellotron and the roads, the roads.
Fender Rhodes is one of my favoriteinstruments in the fucking world.
It's just such a vibey sound.
And for those of you who haven'tcancelled Spotify yet, there is a great,
enormous playlist called Rhodes Trip.

(01:19:51):
cover art is a guy playing aFender Rhodes like on the beach.
And it's got tons ofsongs with Rhodes in them.
So that instrument is a world inand of itself to go explore as well.
Maybe picking up on that justa bit and extending it forward.
So, Rhodes Piano incredible historyand lineage in its own right, including

(01:20:13):
how it got used and how it sounds.
It, in its heyday, right, slowlylost sort of market share to digital
synthesizers in the 80s as those came out.
so, in that vein, Some of the pioneersof analog synths are cool places to go

(01:20:35):
see where people were first learninghow to experiment with this stuff.
Yes, I think we could say, yes, if youare interested in this music, you could
go listen to some of the people we'reabout to mention, but I'm not sure
that's the best way to consume what we'repointing out here more that, uh, you can
reverse engineer a little bit of what'spossible and what you're hearing here

(01:20:58):
by appreciating and understanding thetruly weird experiments that people were
doing very early on pushing further backFrom, not just the eighties, but further
into when analog sense were gettingfurther developed and experimented with.
So.
A couple of examples to call out here,Wendy Carlos, who helped popularize the

(01:21:22):
moog in general, uh, who's known forher work from like the late 60s for what
was called switched on Bach but also acouple of other fun connections related
to sense that had created a fun momentbetween you and me just thinking about
this record before we started recording.
Both Jean Michel Jarre but specificallyMort both very influential,

(01:21:45):
uh, for using synths to createUm, you know, soundscapes, uh,
and do some pretty weird stuff.
And both examples that sort of came outas forebears of this now we're from 1976
for John Michael jars oxygen, but alsowe talked about Mort Garson's Plantasia,

(01:22:06):
which is a delightful thing that exists inthe world, uh, which we I cannot recall.
But I feel that I had known aboutpreviously, forgot, and then got
to re remember in the processof this, which delighted me.
But Plantasia is an album for plants.
and in the year 2025, I ask you,Should you make music for humans more

(01:22:29):
than you should make it for plants?
Or should we go back and reconsider whowe were doing this art for to begin with?
But it's also just a cool recordthat's really fun to listen to.
On other fronts, I'd love to know ifthere are other Krautrockish affiliated
artists that came to mind for yououtside of I know I kind of cheated and

(01:22:51):
mentioned can but that's sort of ourcanonical example that points people
towards all of that music Anyway, didit remind you of anybody else in the
vein that we have been talking about it?
credit to you, you also mentioned new,who is a, is a good and I think to an
extent you can put craftwork kind ofin that bucket and maybe Gary Newman,

(01:23:11):
almost a little even, especiallyas you're thinking about scent.
but there's just so much of the OCS world.
And John Dwyer that really feelsspiritually aligned with this.
It's like a speedball version of allthis, you know, that black moth is
Indica and OCs is sativa and cocaine.

(01:23:33):
but there are moments like 12 inchscent of the OCs or some of the jammy
or stuff like that long song on.
face stabber that I can't rememberthe name of, where it spreads
out and vibes and like, you canespecially experience it live when
they really let their free flag fly.

(01:23:55):
I see so much spiritual alignmentbetween the OCs and the total
idiosyncrasy of John Dwyer's.
Orbit and headspace.
And also I love the point you madearound this being like accidentally or
otherwise bad audiophile, like smart,dumb audiophile, the OCs are that too.
Those records sound great.

(01:24:17):
They're so pleasing to theear, but none of them are like
objectively technically correct.
They're just idiosyncratic and dynamic.
And you have some ofthat same flavor here.
So.
You may never go from Black Moth to theOCs and dig it, but I think if you're
open minded enough to get to Black Mothin the first place, there are entry

(01:24:41):
points with the OCs extensive catalog thatfeel right at home and both byproducts
of the same culture aughts that thatwe talked about early in the episode.
Right on.
I love that connection.
And maybe this comparison offends you,but we talked about this, that math
equation earlier of a few different folks.

(01:25:03):
If you cut that equation in half andyou're just talking about a black
ball, super rainbow with the energyof King Giz, you are not far from
OCs, at least in some of that area.
That's right.
That's right.
The OCs are just King mean olderbrother, you know, like King Giz is

(01:25:23):
a sweet kid with a lot to live forand the OCs are the older brother
that's been expelled from school andplays the knife game at its desk.
Speaking of older and younger siblingsthis part is pretty straightforward but
worth mentioning, uh, when you think ofcontemporary ish artists or very near

(01:25:45):
form influences for this band, you get afew interesting stopping points for sure.
Flaming lips, especially late nineties,early two thousands, flaming lips is.
spiritually aligned to a lotof what's happening here.
But also if, if we had a sort ofserious music history moment to point

(01:26:07):
anyone in the direction of here, ifyou like wanted to really take this
musical lineage seriously, like youwould have to go backwards through.
98's Music Has the Right to Children byBoards of Canada and the Electronic Duo.
Like, you would definitely gostraight through that tunnel, uh,
and through that record, which isIn and of itself, a pretty important

(01:26:29):
record for a number of genres.
and there's a lot that youcan go back through like that.
If you want to do the sort of peelingthe layer of the onion thing here.
But I'm also just trying to give fairwarning as a music nerd and lover.
Peeling the onion may not be the way youwant to approach this one in particular.

(01:26:52):
This album, once again, is going towork better in a lean back and let
it come to you type of fashion thanit will trying to push it forward
into, um, historical realness.
But there's always that there ifyou want to pull on that thread.
Yeah.
You got to stay with this record or bandand in the world of pure imagination

(01:27:14):
that you build for yourself in it.
Like it's almost unfair.
Thomas almost never cites influences inany interview ever, but the two, to your
point, that he name checks with someregularity are Apex Twin and Boards of
Canada, but then you go back to thoseand doesn't even remotely sonically

(01:27:36):
resemble really like any of the time.
Fantastic.
Both are fantastic, obviously, and, andcult favorites for a reason, but you're
not going to find a satisfying similarity.
I don't think you will alittle closer in flaming lips.
And to your point about the mathequation, maybe there's like some
boards of Canada, some flaming lips,and then a little bit of Boris freak

(01:28:00):
out like heavy rocks type flavor,just real light accoutrement on top.
But flaming lips is a little closerbecause you know, they toured
together in the dandelion gum era.
They had their first like big touringmoment where they opened for the lips
and eventually got Dave Friedman.
Who's a mainstay flaming lipsproducer to produce a later

(01:28:23):
record for them called eating us.
So there is some alignment there, butthere's a using the mood ring, uh, analogy
that did once again, different colorsbetween the lips and black moth for sure.
Yep.
Maybe just to round that out, brieflyeverything we said is still the
case, but if you do find yourselfin the, no, I really want to listen

(01:28:47):
to this Boards of Canada record now,this is where I'm camping out, fine.
Also spend Moon Safari by air, and thenkeep going further back, and if you want,
check out the episode we did on TangerineDream, because if you're just gonna go
back to the, to the Genesis, you mightas well do it with the true deep nerds.
Who made a lot of this stuff possible.

(01:29:07):
By the way, I couldn't find the quote,but I swear I saw it where, tobacco
was being interviewed and he expresslysaid he hated being compared to air.
but it's, it's not an unfaircomparison entirely, but I get it.
Just taking a wild guess havingjust heard that from you, I think

(01:29:28):
I can understand that comparison.
And what I'm mostly comparing Eir tois Boards of Canada in this moment.
So we'll try to spirituallyhonor that frustration from him.
Um, but, so I think that that's like,almost an overly simplistic path and
in one that we've tried to illuminatea bit in the past honestly, through a

(01:29:49):
combination of like I said both tangerinedream and can episodes in the past.
We like both of those bands a lot inwhat they did and there's plenty to
discover there, but I think Fanning outover the sort of spectrum of places that
you can go to here becomes immediatelymore interesting and to the degree that,
uh, in this outline that both me andKyle are staring at right now, there

(01:30:11):
is a bullet point called Weird, witha bunch of sub bullets, and I think
that we should go there next because,If this excites you, it can excite you
in some really interesting directions,that will take you to some other places.
And I, and I also see some coolstuff that's exciting me in this
list that I didn't put here.
What I did put here though, uh, wasonce again, I think we've mentioned them

(01:30:35):
in the past, but the armed and anyoneelse who describes themselves as like.
Post pop or anti pop or anythingthat is pushing the boundaries of
what we think of as poppy music.
That is in a, at a slow BPM, exactlywhat's happening on this record.

(01:30:55):
And for bands like The Armed, it'shappening at a higher BPM with different.
types of influences and instruments,but are similarly looking to, like,
stretch things past their logicalendpoints to create a sensation of
music that is not inherently tryingto teach you anything other than,
look how fucking weird we can be.

(01:31:17):
Isn't this fun?
Which is how I feel at an arm show.
Yeah, but specifically with apop sensibility in mind, like
that's the piece of taffy thatyou stretch beyond recognition.
Yeah, it's the, it's thenucleus that you explode.
the armed led to all theother anti gravity pop.
examples that I listed, you touched onAnimal Collective, I think the work of

(01:31:41):
Panda Bear in general, like all the waydown to like the remixes and stuff is
another great example, Deer Hoof beinga contemporary where that works, Crystal
Castles gets into some of the, when Ithink of Crystal Castles, I think of like
kind of the motoric energy, I think FlyingLotus is a really good example here,
we could extend it all the way to othermembers of Brain Feeder, like Thundercat,

(01:32:04):
but it starts to get a little more nodey.
and Cole trainee and present, butI think with flying Lotus, you have
some of that weird diffuse energy.
and then our old buddy KeenanPhillips turned me on to them and
can back when we were teenagers.
But the books are another example
I was so stoked you said this!

(01:32:24):
The Lemon of Pink was crazy
Yeah, just a totally like the, youknow, That quote at the beginning where
we talked about feeling like you're ondrugs when you're just taking the trash
out Like that's what the books are It'sit sort of warps your whole reality and
makes you walk a little askew after youlisten to them but there is something

(01:32:47):
That breaks through and it's kind ofaccessible about it even though it's
like when I heard it the first time Ijust remember being like what the fuck
is this shit And I really love it now.
And it's just, there's no reasonto ever put it on ever or, or seek
out going to experience it live.
which I don't know thatyou could even do anymore.

(01:33:09):
but it feels spirituallyin the same vein for sure.
and I just figure I'll mentionoffhand too, this discussion has
reminded me of what it felt like tolisten to album 88 in the mid aughts
Dude.
Yes.
how much
I actually think that tobaccorecord, I think Fucked Up Friends,
was in heavy rotation when Iwas working at the station.

(01:33:32):
I was gonna say, so the, the type ofworld building that that record station
did around music like we're talkingabout here also brought to mind to me
among other things Glostrop by Battles.
It was like a really heavy rotationon album 88 around the same time
and just has yet another like, Whydoes it sound like this and why

(01:33:54):
do I like it type of phenomenon?
And that's always a recordthat ended up surprising me.
And, uh, honestly can't say you know,after I was a kid listening to classic
rock stations, can't say that radiostations turned me on to too much music.
Once I became an adult,I had the internet.
Thank you very much.
Um, but battles in a few.

(01:34:15):
Related bands came directlyfrom album 88 and whatever
those college kids were doing.
You remember Jetlag?
Yeah!
still one of the biggest.
Jetlag with Yoon, Nam, and Tower ofSong with the homie Andrew Johnson,
two of probably the most consistentvehicles of music discovery for me in

(01:34:37):
the late 2000s, just exploded me towardunknown, unknown, after unknown, unknown.
Shout out Alm88, man.
What an institution.
We appreciate what still exists aboutit but there was a moment in time
where it was a fundamentally differentthing that will never be as cool again.
That's right.

(01:34:59):
Yeah, picture KEXP with noinstitutional backing, no like sheen
of doing stuff, just pure freeformpush to the edges all the time.
So I think we've mentioned a fewother Genres, I think we can tap on,
you've got some under hypnotic here.

(01:35:20):
So we've talked about can and new and OCS.
But I see you called out deadmeadow, which is a really
cool get or really cool pool.
A band that, uh, is on that very shortlist of artists I didn't listen to a
ton and then I saw them live and itclicked in just the right way because
it was just the right moment at theDrunken Unicorn and everything surprised

(01:35:43):
me in a cool way and it was like, Isaw my neighbor there who was stoked
that I was at a Dead Meadows show,
like,
what show you're
talking about.
That was a great show.
What else is in here for you thatyou're describing under hypnotic?
There's a very specific sort of, it can goTo like almost into the weird category, or

(01:36:04):
I know we'll get into more ambient stuff.
it can go a little too light and thenit can certainly go too heavy where you
get into like stoner rock type of stuff.
And dead Meadows right on that lineon the other side of that is probably
stuff like uncle acid and whatever, butstuff that is like motoric inspired.

(01:36:26):
And I would even put stuff like Moon Duoand White Hills and Nod on the other side
of that line where it's, it's close, butthere's a little too much edge to the
energy, maybe so the, these are bands thatgive you a little bit of that hot tubby
feeling, but it's a little more guitarmaybe than synth is the through line
Foliczoid, uh, Is another great one sortof Hawk Windy space rock type of stuff.

(01:36:51):
Just really great records.
I think that have mostly come out onsacred bones, which is an untouchably good
label, and then caribou being another one.
Right on.
I love maybe being able to take stockof how you're feeling on a given day
and chasing that with some of thevibes that we're calling out here.
Yeah, that's right.

(01:37:12):
Yeah, look at your mood ring andlet the color determine which
of these categories to go after.
So hypnotic will lock you in.
If you want to pull backa little bit, I think.
There are a ton of genres that have stupidnames, so I didn't make them, and don't
blame me, but Chill Wave is definitelya place you can end up here, uh,

(01:37:34):
The worst name for the best
yeah.
you know what I
mean?
But, in, uh, a lot of Um, similar brainsto what we've talked about so far and kind
of spiritually aligned with the feelingof not taking things too seriously.
And we're going to use music in thismoment to all kind of be together,

(01:37:56):
but it's not all the way on theother side of, it's not club music or
dance music or whatever, necessarilywashed out definitely comes to mind.
Someone who's done some really interestingthings over, they put together.
It's a pretty long careerfor WSDAL at this point.
Probably in the seven or eightrecord range in this, at this
time, I would

(01:38:16):
imagine.
yeah, cranking it out for a while.
But more kind of locally specific, likeCalm Trues came to mind, like a band
I've gotten to see a couple of timeswho are a little bit, uh, in that range
and, It even reminded me, I don't knowif you'll remember this one, but uh,
speaking of drunken unicorn shows aroundthis time, uh, like, Dale Earnhardt Jr.

(01:38:39):
Jr. It's just spiritually alignedin the sense of, once again, like,
the kind of like weird, not tooserious type of stuff, but, you know,
the artist that we just mentioned.
Are more on the polished end of thingstook the hooks a little bit more seriously
flesh out the instrumentation a littlebit more, uh, and it wasn't quite of

(01:39:02):
just a, a backbeat type vibe the way wesee from Black Moth Super Rainbow here.
But again, lots more to go downin that kind of genre rabbit hole.
Any other things to add there?
I would quickly add, Neon Indian is notreally chill wave, but probably the best
places slotted is in this ecosystem.

(01:39:22):
Chaz, Tori Moi, which like I wouldspecifically say go see him them
live or watch some of the live stuff.
They're, they do like a greatlive set in the desert where they
play in the round like Pompeii.
and it's kind of the vibe of this.
I think you can also go backto four bears of Chillwave.

(01:39:45):
That, you know, they may not want thiscomparison, but I think it's an apt
one, zero seven, those first two zeroseven records, and then stereo lab.
There, there is a decent amountof comparison to stereo lab that
I saw in reviews of black moth
Last one we've pre carved out forourselves, um, which you can just kind of
take me on a journey, especially becauseyou already mentioned the probably most

(01:40:10):
accessible entry point into the categoryof like more ambient music in general.
Uh, we made a music for airport jokes.
Brian, you know, is never a bad decision.
And so that's always a good startingpoint for folks especially if you're
feeling uncertain and curious.
But Kyle, you've compiled quite a list ofpeople here that I think are really cool,

(01:40:35):
uh, set of stones to walk through in thisforest and end up somewhere very odd.
stones.
Ha ha ha ha.
so much was called to mind thinkingabout this era of time when
Dandelion gum came out where I waslike really getting my mind blown.

(01:40:56):
At Alameda and crate digging atcriminal and elsewhere in Atlanta.
so definitely, ambience one and four.
Harold Bud's pavilion of dreams isanother very, very end of the night
after a day full of black moth.
Who has a pretty deeprelationship with Atlanta.

(01:41:16):
and it's the author, if youwill, of ambient three and
that, you know, Helmed series.
So those are like some of the classicsthat feel spiritually aligned, but
there was a whole modern movement, liketalking about the, like immediately
pre blog era, just people doing superweird shit, where they were like.
Putting stuff on cassettes before thatwas back in fashion, like it is now.

(01:41:41):
And it was just.
Esoteric and strange and had asense of analog and whatever.
So there's a whole world of stuff.
That's not even necessarily directlyconnected to each other that I love.
It's like a specific vibeof stuff that I love.
And I buy about two ona very regular basis.
And I've not really had an opportunity toshow love to until this moment, and it's

(01:42:05):
shoehorning a little, but I think if youjust really dig the lean back energy of
it, there's at least one of these thingsin this list that could be your thing.
So stuff like magic lanternor forest swords or emeralds.
Or Eternal Tapestry, who had a great,heady record called Transcendence

(01:42:28):
Or Blues Control, or Sunburned Handof the Man, which feels like it
could be a Black Moth song title.
Or Vibra Cathedral Orchestra, or Barn Owl.
Who had some great, really heady guitarbased stuff or bitch and Baja's who have
done great stuff on their own and greatcollaborations with folks like Bonnie

(01:42:49):
Prince Billy or, one Oh tricks point.
Never, which doesn't, doesn'treally look like it's spelled.
Daniel Lopatin who, you know, wenton to do scores for stuff like good
time and, Has kind of carved outa niche in the industry sonically.
Um, but my favorite, favorite, favorite,favorite on that list is Daniel

(01:43:10):
Stallone, who releases stuff under thename son or raw, and has like done a
collab record with the Congos for theFreakways series, but has, put out a
record in Oh seven, same year as thiscalled beach head that I listened to
all the time that if you are like reallyoutside of your mind, blissing out.
Beach at is a great record.

(01:43:31):
Heavy deeds is a, another one that'slike, if you like the Augustus Pablo
episode, that's like a memory ofa memory of a memory of Augustus
Pablo, that record, Cameron Stallone,son of raw, great artists, singular
artists in the vein of, tobacco,
A lot of places to go.
The only extra thing I would add therewould actually be going, going back

(01:43:53):
to some of the earlier, more ambientwork in addition to like Brian, you
know, and things like that, if you'venever, uh, and we also had mentioned the
Plantasia record by Mort Garson in 76.
If you want to go though, further intoAmbient history, uh, and this idea of

(01:44:13):
just mixing collected and recorded soundswith, you know, low key music and all
that worth mentioning to, uh, HiroshiYoshimura's green album from 1986,
like one of the most, you know, famousJapanese ambient albums of all time.
Like all that sort of stuff is like, if,if even the chill wave recommendations we

(01:44:34):
gave you are a little too lively, you can.
Keep stepping it all the way back, uh,and hit some of this ambient stuff, but
Man, I hope even literally Tobacco, theartist, and the other folks involved in
Black Mall Super Rainbow would be excitedby how big of a box that we can open just

(01:44:54):
by starting with this particular recordand sending people in a bunch of places
that, um, Are either interesting orimportant or both, um, but, but without
having to, once again, take anythingoverly seriously as you try to encounter
this record and that has been a kind and awelcome relief this time through for sure.

(01:45:16):
So I think.
One thing I saw you mentioned here,Kyle, I'd love to leave people with too.
We talk about what to do with whatyou feel if something hits you in
unexpected ways about this record andaligned with something I see that.
That you've called out here.
I was recently watching the new animatedSpider Man thing that's come out.

(01:45:39):
That's like, speaking of things that aremaybe for kids, but maybe also for adults.
Who knows?
I like it.
But one of like my favorite thingsabout like real old comic book,
actual Spider Man as translated intomodern society is that like, he like
is stoked on finding electronicsby the dumpster that people left.

(01:46:00):
Like, he's like, a DVD player, like,who would leave this here and why?
And he can like, go dosome dumb shit with it.
And like, similarly, whether it's goingback to a thrift store and hooking some
weird shit together that you can affordbecause it didn't cost any money or
whether it's like old analog stuff thatyou get a hold of and it's a privilege

(01:46:20):
to even work with or whether it's,the newer version of a lot of this.
Concept which to me is kind ofaffiliated with like maker spaces and
stuff like the arduino and raspberrypi stuff of the world where it's like
Just give me some stuff and then letme go make something else with it.

(01:46:41):
And just like Whatever I make is what Imade the destination is the journey and
whatever, dude, like I just wanna make athing and solder some things together and
see what happens on the other side of it.
And like, to me that energy islike really encapsulated and can
get motivated by what happens heremusically, uh, on this record.

(01:47:02):
Like there's, there's so much DIY energyhere that doesn't need to prove anything.
And to some of the.
Ways that we opened this episode today.
Sometimes it's important toremember that you don't have
to prove anything to anyone.
And sometimes you can just sit backand do some things with your hands

(01:47:24):
to entertain your body and see whatcomes out of it and enjoy it and
appreciate it and just like take a ride.
So, I loved that you sort of broughtthat up, and it, it just reminded
me of the ways that we can remindourselves on a daily basis, like,
just crochet some shit, dude.
Like, just do something that doesn'tresult in a capitalistic outcome to

(01:47:48):
remind yourself that you exist, uh, andthat there are things that you may be
able to do, but there's a lot of stuffyou can't do, and you just have to
take care of yourself in the meantime.
I love that we started with leanback, let this clear out your mind.
And if that's all this record ever doesfor you energetically, that's fine.
That's great.

(01:48:09):
But you and I, especially as we've hadthe calendar now for a year and some
change, have talked about the discipline.
Of loving music and lettingmusic enrich your life.
And the discipline is in thesustaining and mindfulness
is all about the sustaining.
So I think the way that you sustainthat cleared out state, living in

(01:48:31):
a world of pure imagination is byjust doing stuff, just making stuff.
And that's what the life,that's the artist's way.
Truly is just sustaining a disciplineof creating, expressing, making
the world that you want to live in.
One little weird doodad knob turn wireconnection into a board at a time one like

(01:48:55):
one set of eyeballs cut out of a magazineand paste it on to a garbage pail kids
rainbow, every creative act as a stepin the direction of the world that you
want to live like our artists exists to.
See the world as it could be notas it is and like create new world.
So like you can do that.
There's no us and them around that.

(01:49:17):
Like everybody can be creative if youjust do a creative thing, you may hate it.
You may think it sucks, but like tobaccois a great, is great evidence in favor of.
you don't have to go to Berkeley.
You don't have to know anything fancy.
There is no great secret.
The great secret is.
Revealed to you in the doingso I hope that you'll do, I

(01:49:38):
guess, is the takeaway for me.
I think that's also reflected inthe okay player review that we cited
at the beginning of this episode.
last paragraph is so good.
Their bio mentions how their musiccould be quote pagan rituals and a
sugar coaster fairyland or quote sadthoughts on the happiest days What this
means is that it goes back to a timewhen music like this was truly part

(01:50:00):
of the norm when creating sounds likethese We're part of being experimental
when being experimental meant loving FMradio for hearing something you'd never
hear on AM radio Staying up at 2 a.
m.
To hear that freak on theother side of the airwaves.
Give you what?
He or she knows you desire black moths.
You have a rainbow probablylive up to the statement.
When I grew up, I want tomake music just like that.
This is the grown up sound thatdreams are made of but your eyes

(01:50:23):
and ears are open and you can'tbelieve what you're witnessing in
this awakened state far fucking out.

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Episode 63: Black Moth Super Rainbow's "Dandelion Gum"

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