Celia Farber was one of the first, ever, to challenge the HIV/AIDS narrative

Celia Farber, one of the first journalists to challenge the HIV/AIDS narrative, joins Jerm to discuss her journey, the politics of public health, and the striking parallels between HIV/AIDS and COVID-19.More Jerm Warfare: https://www.ukcolumn.org/series/jerm-warfare

Episode Transcript

(00:35):
None. Thank you for inviting me,
Jeremy, It's a real pleasure. We finally are here.
It took quite a while to get to this point, yeah.
Yeah, I was unwell. I had, I was, I, I was sick.
I had a sinusitis that dragged on.
You were very, very patient. It was took a long time to clear

(00:57):
it out. I've I live in Spain now and and
I thought I would bounce back health.
Why that you know, you can come to a new a new country, a new
place and something hits your system wrong.
Even though, even though it's wonderful, it's sun drenched.
It's you know, I'm very happy tobe here.
But it is actually possible thatI've encountered my old friend

(01:21):
mold again. I don't know.
I don't know how to check for mold in Spain.
Spain. I didn't know you were in Spain.
OK, that explains that explains a bunch of a bunch of things.
Now how are you finding it? I've never been.
As an African, it's very difficult to go to to to go to
Europe. Schengen visa is not the easiest

(01:42):
to get. Right.
Right. I love it.
Am I? So my son moved here almost
eight years ago. He came here, came to Granada.
He fell in love with it and he just, he just moved to Granada.
And then three years ago he got married to his now wife, Paula.

(02:04):
And I was back and forth, back and forth.
And I would say that when I'm, when I, this might sound
strange, but I didn't exactly move to Spain.
I I, I one of the times I came to Spain, I just didn't go back
and my son said, Mom, can't you just stay?
And I was experiencing so many strange things.

(02:25):
I am essentially A targeted individual since many years and
things were just getting, I was just being hit with all kinds
of, you know, bizarre things happening in the States.
I didn't feel, I've never felt safe, but it felt more and more
like, so I feel like I almost defected to Spain.
I didn't move to Spain the way aproper person would like you

(02:46):
spend a year or two tying up allthe loose ends and selling your
things and so forth. So it's it's it's all.
And this is a repeat of when I was 11, my mother took us to
Sweden in the middle of a of a very tumultuous divorce.
And she just told us we're not going back.
So I've thought about this. I think this is my ingrained in

(03:08):
me that, you know, you sort of you go to a country and then you
just stay there. So it has these elements of
yeah, like I feel like I to someextent defected and didn't plan
it very well. I absolutely am AII don't know
if this is the right word. Hispanophile at this point.
I just, I love so many things about the culture of the people.

(03:31):
I write about it sometimes or actually regularly on my sub
stack. I'm sort of in awe.
The language is coming rather slowly, but it's it's coming
along. But I've also noticed that not
noticed I've, I would say I've experienced that moving to a new
country later in life with a newlanguage, new everything.

(03:55):
It's not like when you're watching videos online and just
because you find things more, more wonderful and the way
things ought to be, your whole system can sort of freeze up and
go into almost like a kind of a shock because nothing is
familiar. So I've experienced a lot more
of a, of an adjustment period than I had wanted, including

(04:20):
things like a return of some of my fatigue symptoms, which have
been battling for many years. So that's, that's a whole part
of my life and has been for the last 15 years.
I started out writing about other people's disease, as it
were. AIDS is the one I'm most known
for. And then I myself became felled

(04:42):
with chronic illness for many, many years.
So I'm I'm super fascinated by that whole subject and right now
I'm in a good place. My latest mini obsession is
intramuscular B12, which I started to take on the advice of

(05:07):
a friend and it turned everything around in days.
So I, yeah, we're not talking about, you know, health hacks
right now, but only to say when you and I first started
communicating, my energy was just really bad.
And now I'm on the upswing. Intramuscular B12.

(05:28):
Hang on, hang on, hang on. I've never heard of that.
So there's sublingual B12, there's B12 capsules, it's just
you inject yourself with with B12 in the arm and the leg.
Why inject yourself as opposed to consumers?
Because that's the only OK, so it turns out all right, I'll go
ahead and I'll be brief, But here's the deal with with B12 as

(05:51):
I understand it so far. So I, I have come to understand
recent in recent weeks that you can be beat.
You can be severely B12 deficient, even though you eat
meat. So I was a carnivore for years.
I'm not not really a carnivore anymore, I'm not against it, but

(06:13):
I just it wasn't working for me as well nearly when I came to
Spain. So I started including some
fruits and vegetables. It's also very boring.
Yeah, let's face it, it is. It is.
And to get depressed by the sameway a prisoner would get
depressed, right If it's the same food every day, that's not

(06:35):
good for your health either to. Just be so depressed like.
Really. I can never eat an apple,
really. So there's something called
pernicious anemia, which I now think may have been what I had.
And that comes from having, to put it simply, digestive
problems, gut problems, which is, of course, the Nexus of

(06:58):
virtually everybody's health problems.
So I definitely had that. I had, you know, a mercury
assault as a child, 11 mercury fillings put in when I was 11
years old. When we moved to Sweden, I, I
had just tons of problems. So I had a big clue about a year
and a half ago I tried to donateblood in New York and there's a

(07:19):
child who was getting a cancer surgery and his mom wanted non
vaccinated blood, non COVID vaccinated blood.
So I went to the clinic and lo and behold, they rejected me for
having low platelets. And I thought what, how on earth
can I can I be anemic when I'm acarnivore?
So that's when I should have done a deep dive into the

(07:42):
possibility I had pernicious anemia.
So I haven't been properly diagnosed, but I'm working with
a woman in the UK who does consultations and you tell her
your symptoms, she sends the B12and if you feel a lot better you
probably did have AB12 deficiency.

(08:02):
So. Yeah, diet is for me one of the
most important topics actually, because if if you wake up
feeling rubbish then very littleelse matters.
Right, exactly. I, I, I was right there for I
don't, I don't want to count theyears, 15 years spending

(08:25):
probably 85% of my time just trying to feel OK, just trying
to feel better, endlessly researching, spending every last
dollar I came across. And this is after I'm already
exiled from journalism, not making a regular income.
So I fell into this kind of underworld almost of, of being

(08:47):
ill, not knowing what was wrong with me, not knowing really the
whole really the subject that brings us together.
You know, what makes us sick? What does diet have to do with
it? What is environment, air,
technology, everything. Like what is actually making me
sick? And this question I don't

(09:09):
actually think feel like we everfully resolved it in the AIDS
camp. And it was just as tricky to
resolve it for myself. It's very individual and it's
very and it's not, it's not the sum of its parts.
Often people, you know, when youfeel like I'm eating like a St.,

(09:30):
I'm doing all the right things and you can still there's
something you're missing, you know?
Your background, I mean in, in, in writing and research, I mean
from what I discovered is essentially HIV AIDS.
I mean, that's what that's what you're known for.
That's. What I'm known for, yeah.

(09:52):
Yeah, but here's the thing, Dietis intricately linked to that.
Here in South Africa, as you most likely know, was the huge
ARV rollout that happened in themid 2000s.
The, the president at the time, Todd Mbeki and his health
minister were, were trying to tell the population to change

(10:16):
the diet to become healthier. And this was laughed at and it
was mocked. And of course he was removed as
the president and he was replaced by Jacob Zuma, who then
had the largest Arrow V rollout,I think in South African
history. What did they say nothing about,
about diet? They just said take these drugs
and, and, and, and keep taking them basically until, until you

(10:40):
die. And and and those drugs which
are effectively chemotherapy drugs, make you sicker and
sicker and sicker. What you know, OK, wow, you
where do I begin? So.
Sorry, I was what I was doing isI was creating the Segway there
because you were talking about diet and for me diet is so

(11:01):
intricately linked to to HIV AIDS.
Absolutely. So in 2000, actually it really
began in 1999 when Thabo Mbeki did this amazing thing and stood
up. We were jubilant.
We who's we dissenters against HIV theory and we had been at it

(11:28):
since 1987. Is I'm a first.
I was a first generation HIV dissenter.
Nobody also. I think.
Dave, Dave Resnick came along. Yeah.
Joan Shenton in the UK. So 1987 is where I usually start
the clock, because that's when Peter Duesberg's piece First
Broadside against It All, comes out in the journal Cancer

(11:51):
Research. That's when the war in earnest
kicks off between him and them, and between journalists who
covered it. I was one of the first ones by
just a strange fluke being either in the right place at the
right. Time or the wrong.
Place at the wrong time. But I I was I was at Spin

(12:13):
magazine and it was a rock magazine that favoured contrary
and investigative journalism. And I read about it in the New
York native went running in you know, we got to cover this
story. I won't go into all the details.
I've I've done it about, you know, who said yes and who said

(12:33):
no, but suffice to say I I had the full backing in the end of
the publisher of Spin magazine. So we stayed on that story for
10 solid years and the dissidentinternational dissident
community was growing and growing.
A lot of luminaries, it seemed now looking back like the the
top people in every field joinedthe opposition to gallows

(12:56):
preposterous HIV so-called theory and and and thought she
was, you know, the silent godfather behind the scenes
pulling the strings, terminatingfunding for anything, anything
and anybody who stepped one iotaoutside of doctrinaire orthodox

(13:16):
hyper, I might call it like Lenin, Leninist AIDS HIV theory,
which was HIV by itself with no other contributing factors is
the single and sufficient cause of AIDS.
And anybody who dares stray in the direction of suggesting
otherwise must be punished as a counter revolutionary force that

(13:39):
has to be removed as a threat toAIDS research which was a
revolutionary. It was a, it was a cult, it was
a a huge money laundering operation.
It was a psyop. You know lots of words I could
use to describe it. But when Tamil Mbeki came out
and I remember it like it was yesterday, we all felt

(14:02):
liberation was imminent. That surely a head of state of
his, especially with his political pedigree and of his
stature, how much he was respected, that it was going to
be a Berlin Wall moment for us. Everybody was going to
understand, you know. And then he had the the
conference. I was there in Pretoria.
We journalists were not. Allowed.

(14:24):
Yeah, the one that fell apart. The one that fell apart, like
everything fell apart. And now looking back, it's like,
how, how could we be so naive? Well, I mean, I, I, I admire him
enormously. And what you're, what you're
talking about was so, so insanely politicized, the matter

(14:47):
of food and nutrition. We were treated, all of us.
And Mbeki and his health minister, our mutual friend
Anthony Brink, used to try to teach me how to pronounce her
name. Mantu mantu shablalam samang.
Thank you. I want to attempt to repeat

(15:08):
that. I'm I even I stumbled there?
She, she was, I mean, women werealways more, more viciously
targeted. My memory is that she was
essentially bullied into sickness and, and her early, her
premature death. The AIDS activists in South.

(15:29):
So we have AIDS activists in America and they're pretty
awful. Your AIDS activists were of a
different caliber altogether. The Zaki Akhmat crowd.
They were ultra and you'll stop me if I'm getting any of this
wrong, but revolutionary Marxismfused with.

(15:50):
I've met Zaki. OK.
And for them any talk about foodor nutrition or clean water?
Water was. You get laughed at.
Well, much worse. I think they treated it like you
were the absolute Antichrist. You were the because what was
the cherished? What was the what was the cult

(16:10):
centred on? It was centred on ARVs, as you
said, it was centred on access to the most poisonous drugs
imaginable and their and and then you had people like coming
out of the apartheid fight, likethe amazing and I, I knew him.
I I loved him. I miss him.

(16:31):
Doctor Sam Shongo. Who?
Always talked about who is, you know, an advisor to Thabo Mbeki
and he said what has happened toyour heads in the apartheid
fight? 50% in that in the apartheid
era, 50% of black South African children were dead by the age of

(16:51):
five. In other words, they swept away
all of these issues of poverty, malnutrition, death, sickness
and death, and in comes AIDS andnow everything is HIV.
They the AIDS actions. Yeah, but sorry, I, I don't mean
to interrupt, but but Mbeki saidthat, he said he said AIDS was a

(17:11):
disease of poverty. Exactly.
And then you had the radical Marxist faction in your country,
the Akhmat faction, the revolutionary Marxist faction
demonizing that. I mean that's a real weird
inversion that the Marxist faction would demonize the
connection between poverty, malnutrition and illness for

(17:34):
black S Africans in post apartheid South Africa.
Like it couldn't get any more bizarre.
But that would that was that was.
And then the whole global left ish left of centre kind of
highbrow media piled on and Becky in the most vile, racist,

(17:56):
derogatory terms. You know, the way they attacked
him. It was breathtaking.
People who didn't live through this would never believe it.
How, how, how how mean and vicious and surreal it was.
It was, it was surreal. There were no discussions about,

(18:18):
yes, well, of course clean watermatters and poverty and we have
to talk about these things. It really was as though because
they knew, because they, the, the, the globalist powers that
be knew that this was a slipperyslope, right?
This is a a portal to the real questions.
Do do do. Viruses exist.

(18:39):
Do viruses cause disease? Is contagion real?
Because this is their entire multi trillion dollar money
laundering apparatus and social control super, super plan.
And they're they're all in on it, right?
So we could not figure out at the time, why are they so
vicious? They hated us so much, you know,

(19:00):
and now and then when COVID broke out, I mean, I don't mean
broke out as an illness. I mean descended as a as.
An event. Happened.
Yeah, it started to make sense. But this, this is the thing,
Celia, and This is why chatting about HIV AIDS suddenly in, in

(19:21):
my view seems more relevant now because it the COVID thing was,
was almost like a mirror image of the AIDS thing.
I mean, I've got Becky's 2001 AIDS report here in front of me
and on page. Is it 16 or 17?
I can't see here the the team that wrote the report advised

(19:43):
against PCR tests and look at us.
Yeah, we are post COVID. Yes, yeah.
In fact, you anybody hearing this, you can find a transcript
of at least half the conference,the Pretoria conference, on
David Raznick's website. Have you ever seen that

(20:05):
document? I've got all the videos also of
that event. You do.
You. Have the video.
Wow, OK, I didn't. Know that, but you can't.
It's not really watchable because it's all broken and the
audio doesn't work and it's not synced correctly and all that
sort of stuff. But nonetheless, this is a very
important piece. Of history.
It's a very important piece of history.

(20:26):
And I years after it was all said and done, I actually found
there was a an author. I have no idea his name or the
title of his book. I just remember coming across it
and he was writing some kind of he wrote some kind of biography
of Mbeki and he he put it in there.
Maybe he didn't know what he wasputting what what it was.

(20:50):
But I came upon the fact that after the ARV roll out, no
surprise to people like us, the deaths skyrocketed.
In other words, the ARV. Remember how they used to say
that the HIV, well, you weren't maybe around for this debate at

(21:11):
that time, but what they were acute, they had a very precise
number. They always told us that we had
killed, was it 330,000 S Africans?
Can that be right? Or was it 33?
Thousand, that is correct, yeah.33.
It's it's somewhere close to 400,000.
That AIDS denialism had killed and that turns out, and I can

(21:36):
dig this up for you or maybe youalready have it, it turns out
that was pretty much exactly thenumber that had that died in
excess after the ARV roll out inSouth Africa, exactly as we
said. Nobody brings up yeah, in fact,
the the the mortality, overall mortality in South Africa around

(21:59):
2000 and six 2007, I can't remember precisely which year
was a lot higher than any of theCOVID years.
Yes, we suppose, and we said. Yet we supposedly had a deadly
pandemic. Yeah, yeah.
I mean, and the I I saw recentlyZaki Akhmat in an interview with
Christiane Amanpour, my blood just boiled, man.

(22:23):
I was like, that guy is still athis, in a position of power and
influence. Here we go, I've got it in front
of me. It was around 2005 and 2006 when
the Arrow V rollout occurred andand here we have the highest
mortality in South Africa in thelast 25 years.
Thank you. That's what I'm talking about.

(22:45):
Yeah. And all the scalps, all the
people who were destroyed and even killed over this in that
enormous brawl about, about South Africa.
It's like when they do these attacks, these OPS, you know,
the train leaves the station andit's after the train leaves the

(23:06):
station when it's you, you got to go back.
And then nobody goes back and says, well, what happened with
all that? What happened?
What happened after the fact? And I none of us really
understand what became of Mbeke's fighting spirit.
Maybe he was completely as I certainly was.
You know, you lose your capacityto make a sound to do anything

(23:28):
because there's you've you've endured so much ultra violence,
right, that it just feels pointless.
But he he would be in a prime position to be vindicated.
But he probably knows, you know,these people are so vicious and
irrational and unfair that it's it's no point and media and.
Yeah, but he was also silenced by the ANC because remember,

(23:51):
he's a, he's a, he's a part of the party.
Yeah, yeah. You understand all that a lot
better than I, I, I imagine as much.
But but does he, do you think there's any kind of process of
of his rehabilitation, even if it's behind the scenes?
Do you think anybody's trying torehabilitation in South Africa
for the fact that he was right, He was right to do everything he

(24:14):
did with? Well, he spoke about, he spoke
about it. Was it a year or two ago?
Very recently, Yeah, he spoke. He spoke at A at a university.
And very quickly after that the ANC again tried to do quote UN
quote damage control. Oh, so he's.
Totally. Yeah, there's no chance.

(24:35):
Then it's the ANC. Yeah.
But I I also have gotten the sense that S Africans, black S
Africans, in any event that I saw online in many Mbeke
contexts, were desperately wishing he was still the
president. Yes, but that's a that's a very
complex comment because. But I mean, he had.

(24:59):
He had the love of the people itthey, the media, you know, the
AIDS Inc factions wanted everybody to believe that all S
Africans were embarrassed by this president and what he did
with HIV AIDS. But whenever it doesn't.
Still to this day, he's considered an embarrassment by
the media. That's appalling.

(25:19):
But I mean, Celia, this is this is what your work has been all
about. It's it's, it's been you've been
pushing back against one of the most powerful cogs in the public
health machine. I know.
Yeah. I was, I, I had no idea when I,

(25:43):
when I began. I, I thought it was fascinating.
I thought it was. I thought we all thought
resolution, victory was always imminent, right around the
corner. We were always, you know, one
paper, one scientist, one revelation, when over and over
and over again we we came upon the fact that by themselves

(26:06):
should have torn down the whole ghastly thing and nothing put a
dent in it because it was designed to.
Be. Wrong and to keep flying because
it was a revolutionary doctrinaire money laundering
cult SIOP mind control MK Ultra,right?

(26:30):
We can throw all our words and it was all those things it was
and we mistook it. I want to say tragically for a
scientific and correctable like a juggernaut, but a juggernaut
that you could correct scientifically.
And you know, there went, there went my life because it was

(26:55):
untouchable and absolutely untouchable.
The only thing that got played out was violence against those
who countered it. So, you know, I've, I learned a
lot about that. I, I, I, I, I'm not saying that
I regret it and it's irrelevant whether I do or don't.
I'm just saying that to this daywhen people tinker with it

(27:18):
scientifically, I just feel so strongly.
For heaven's sakes, it wasn't a scientific matter or thing they
they used. They used science jargon to cast
all the spells that they cast. But you can't correct something

(27:40):
like this with corrective science.
It was just deep in the deepest organs and tissues and DNA of
the entire culture that good people knew.
HIV was the single and sufficient cause of AIDS.
It was as deep as what can we compare it to?

(28:01):
It took over as a like, let's say there's a legit debates
about diabetes, about nobody gets crazy like that about
diabetes, about heart disease. This was not an A normal
illness, not a normal. It was it was So you know, if I
say cult, that doesn't do it justice, and if I say psyop,
that doesn't do it justice. Maybe you have some words, but.

(28:24):
The thing is the same though. It's the same, but we need like
a, we need a term for what theseit's are they are it's.
Frustrating also. They are Wrecking Ball, Wrecking
Ball, social engineering projects on such a grand scale

(28:45):
with so much money in them and through them and they create
entire, entire cultures that arepaid off to support them.
So I do think my word revolutionis an important word because
what happens when there's a revolution every, everything

(29:06):
changes very fast. So nothing that was believed 2
days ago counts anymore. It becomes necessary to kill
everybody who could threaten therevolution.
The revolution must survive. The revolutionaries, the most
they survive and anybody who says what is all you know, they
they get taken out and shot. So it was like a bloodless

(29:29):
revolution in biology starting in the United States.
So American biology, through this dark moment of Robert Gallo
announcing HIV was the cause of AIDS, was also simultaneously
destroyed. And those biologists,
virologists, real scientists andacademics who saw it and
protested it. What I really covered was what

(29:51):
happened to them primarily. That's what I covered.
I didn't cover the about about every last scientific detail
this way that because I I, I wason the ground covering the
sociological nightmarish phenomenon of this whole thing.
Luke Montagne was his partner incrime and I think it was in the
1990s when he publicly said thatHIV does not need to be the sole

(30:19):
cause of AIDS, and that has beenlargely severely suppressed,
that particular comment of his. Luke Montagne, I remember it
vividly. He came out in the very early
90s and he came out at a conference and he got behind a
scientist named Doctor Shai Ching Lo, who was who was
proposing that a mycoplasma could have something to do with

(30:42):
the development of AIDS. Montagna in relative innocence
came out and said, I think this is interesting.
I don't remember exactly what hesaid.
Again, for all of us, this was ahuge moment.
I devoted one or more columns. I had a column, but it was
called Words from the Front thatcovered this war blow by blow.
That was a very big deal. They went ballistic berserk on

(31:06):
him. Oh, it was trying to remember
the detail. I mean, people denouncing him on
the spot, threatening to end theconference, storming out.
He got in a lot of immediate hotwater again, as if he had lost
his mind. Lost his mind because they knew
if they gave a fraction of an inch to the opposition, it would

(31:31):
eventually potentially be game over.
So this is to me, I know I'm harping on it, but the climate
of viciousness is really what they perfected.
Like how to freak out so utterlyand thoroughly as and how to
punish people so elaborately. That's kind of the untold story
of it all. So Montagne was, I would say,

(31:56):
shocked and pushed back on his heels, a little bit chastened.
You know, he he understood what could happen.
He understood he could be obliterated and they'd made an
example of Peter Dusberg and other reeled out of the closet
straight up dissidents. And I'm not going to accuse him
of any kind of cowardice or anything.

(32:18):
But he after that he he kind of spoke out of both sides of his
mouth. But they whatever backroom deals
they met, you know, And then it got into John Crudson's work on
whether Robert Gallo had misappropriated Montagne's
original sample. That kicked off the whole
nightmare. And so then it was in litigation

(32:40):
and everybody kind of made Luke Montagne into the, it was like
the black sheep and the white sheep.
So Gallo was the black sheep. So he sort of had to carry the
bag for, for an HIV theory. I don't think he ever believed
in the French, never said it wasthe cause of AIDS.
And then of course, he got the Nobel Prize.
So you see how it works. It was because Gallo had been

(33:06):
found guilty of scientific misconduct and fraud by the
whole John Dingell, John John Crudeson chapter.
So they couldn't really keep BobGallo in the race as the HIV
king. So it became it went to Montagne
and there was a lot of resentment against Gallo that
also got expressed as support for Luke Montagne, sort of white

(33:28):
knight, Dark Knight kind of thing.
You see what I'm saying? So he was always a little bit,
he was just not the kind of scientist who said, I know what
I know. I'm not backing down.
He wasn't one of those, but nor was he one of the dark one of
the bad guys. He and then I think his true

(33:51):
colors came out. I mean, what's the better, more
positive way to say true colors?His better angels came out
finally with COVID, he was able to speak a little more freely.
And all of the this is character, these are characters,
these are, these are like Shakespearean plays.
All of them, all of this is about ambition, greed, idealism.

(34:18):
That's why I was always fascinated by the the
characters, the scientists and the differences between them.
And I was interested in the goodones, not the bad ones.
I was interested in the ones whoI was just fascinated by how
they could stand up and say whatthey, they felt.
It felt to me that even then, like you guys are like a dying
breed. You're not even going to be
around 1, you know, because whatyou're doing is going against

(34:42):
your own interests and all the money.
Everyone's saying you're crazy and awful and murderous, and
still you're saying it. You're seeing something that's
so important to you. And that was really inspiring to
me. Like, like if I was a nature
photographer, like, you know, oh, I want to photograph the
last, you know, snow leopards orsomething because they were very

(35:05):
fascinating and, and their storyhasn't been told.
There were there were thousands of them.
Yeah, in your sub stack, you, you, you spoke recently about
the opposition and, and and the viciousness of it.
Yep, COINTELPRO. I don't know that much more

(35:26):
about COINTELPRO than the next person.
I just have seen it over and over and over again.
Where you get, you know it's theTrotsky phenomenon, right?
Like a, a, a, an assigned purityleader.
Revolutionary stands up against the the original Revolutionary
Guard starts throwing broken bottles.

(35:47):
All hell breaks loose. Everybody has to take sides.
It's, it's just, it's, it's an absolute standard feature of
every movement. Yeah, but I mean like in the no
virus thing it it's incredibly annoying, even if a lot of the
individuals perhaps might be on the right side of scientific

(36:08):
history. There is this type of militant
cult like thing. I don't know what the right term
is to to describe a lot of thesepeople.
I'll, I'll mention Carrie Mullisand how he was trying to search
for the link between HIV and AIDS and suddenly I get people
saying to me he was a shill and all sorts of stuff.

(36:28):
And you can't speak about him atall because he believed in
viruses. And it just completely
dismantles any type of healthy discourse.
Yeah, let me take a deep breath and here's what I how I want to
say this. One of the strangest things

(36:52):
about this the So there's there's the HIV fight that
starts as a in 1987. And essentially that that war,
according to me, ends in 2008, the year Christine Maggiore
died. And right now don't have a lot

(37:12):
of time to I'll just say Christine, the death of one of
the leading figures of the HIV descent movement named Christine
Maggiore signalled for both sides the effective end of the
so-called it wasn't it, it was called the HIV, let's call it a
war. Some people called it the HIV.
So this is like round one, 1987 through 2008.

(37:39):
In 2020, after COVID, the thing,the questions roar back.
They come back around, especially PCR, because with
HIV, they didn't diagnose anybody with PCR.
But PCR was like a supportive tyrannical technology.

(38:01):
Now you have people really jumping out of their socks,
cottoning on. Many of them are very
outstanding and and doing a lot of great work.
I kind of want to avoid names, at least for the time being.
And so it Revs up into this. I would, I don't Lucy.
I want to kind of name it something.
It's like, it's like virus and causation and PCR study or

(38:36):
understanding Part 2. That's a very bad name for it.
What shall we call it? In other words, there was a war
that nobody heard of or knew of or was most of the people who
joined in round two never heard of what came before.
They just somehow cottoned on in2020.
Like this makes no sense. How can somebody transmit a
disease if they're asymptomatic PCR, right?

(38:58):
So now there's like lots of people all over the world and
all kinds of channels and, and, and, and it was, it was amazing.
It was like a renaissance of thevery questions that we were so
crucified and destroyed for forging all those years.
But what also happened was that there was a militant strand in

(39:21):
it, some of whom were around fractioning the original
movement, who came in as purifiers, radical, super
radical, revolutionary, you know, I call them Trotskyites,
who started to demand this purification of all the issues
and started to rubbish all the people who had come before, some

(39:44):
of whom I've described in the most unbelievably vicious,
unjust and abusive terms. And you know, I, I, I was, I was
one of them. There were many others.
And the attack on Carrie Mullis was was one of those.
Chapters and the whole thing that was so unbelievably

(40:06):
downright strange, you know, like you can look at somebody
just having sort of an an epileptic fit on a bus or
something like where is I mean, you know, and it's like what I
mean by that is it seemed like aa fit of of a fit of destruction

(40:27):
for the sake of destruction or, or defamation for the sake of
defamation. Like it became cool to just
attack and to show to some forceout there that you're one of the
purests now. So they called themselves, they
called themselves no virus. They didn't call themselves

(40:49):
weirdly, they didn't talk. About the Perth group
particularly. Because it used to be there was
a battle between the Perth groupand the Deuce Berg IANS and you
know, I could say a lot about that.
But in this new fight and this new purity, it felt synthetic to
me. It felt planted.
It felt like there were bad actors who had been planted
there to run this new script, which made absolutely no sense.

(41:13):
Here's what makes no sense, starting with this that people
should cotton on, as I say, to amatter that was, you know, like
the ground is soaked in other people's blood for all these
decades and people suddenly cropup and they're going to send
other people to the to the cornfield.
You know, that episode of Twilight Zone, the tyrant boy

(41:34):
sends people to the cornfield for for wrong thing.
That's what they were doing. That one is out.
That one is out. That one is.
And it's like, wait, but you guys just turned up.
Who are you? I never heard of you.
You aren't part of this. Back when we really could have
used you, back when we're all getting slaughtered out here.
But they had this self anointed,absolute vicious righteousness

(41:58):
that yeah, yes, you're damn right we are here now and we're
telling everybody who's good andwho's bad and who's pure and
who's not. And it was so bizarre.
I could. Not even actually understand it
for a long time or. Or kind of deal with it.
Or write about it. And I don't like writing about
it. It makes me miserable.

(42:21):
What I would say to people who push that, who are decent but
are kool-aid, who have picked this up somewhere like, yeah,
Carrie Mullis was was bullshit and Peter Duesberg was no hero.
And they they believe in. Virus they're.
Just grifters. Yeah, they're just grifters.

(42:41):
Grifters wait Peter do I mean people whose all of whose money
was taken away Peter Duisburg was defunded by Anthony Fauci in
1980s have never received another federal sorry I could
get I got to stay calm OK what Iwould say I'm going to try to do
it calmly is if you weren't there with all due respect, you

(43:03):
don't understand what this war was about what was in it.
You're just here now in a in a very safe air conditioned field
with your little channels and you're talking, you're tinkering
with the science and you're really smart and you're really
kind of full of yourselves. But you do not understand what
it meant for, for example, PeterDuesberg to be on that mountain

(43:28):
facing like, for example, the AZT death train coming right at
him. This all of these multi multi
trillion dollar attacks coming and there was no such thing as
having your channel or your following or your sub stack or
bring. It was just punishment, in some

(43:50):
cases, death. So when I say people don't
understand what that war was about, they think like, oh,
Peter Duisburg was sitting around saying, well, you know,
retroviruses are really important, and I'm here to
represent. Don't ever take away my
retroviruses. He was the one who introduced
the very idea of opposing this mammoth force of Robert Gallo,

(44:17):
Anthony Fauci and The Who. And there was no such thing as
interfering with that spell before Peter Duesberg.
It was about, yes, causation, toxicity, transmission.
Duesberg was the first to say H AIDS is not a sexually
transmissible disease. So it's extremely reductionist

(44:39):
to say that he isn't in harmony with most of what the
contemporary post 2020 guys like, like Tom Cowan say.
There's so much and what he and the other dissidents forged that
is exactly in line with what they said, except that they
didn't dispatch entirely of the notion of the existence of these

(45:01):
putative entities. OK, But if you think that is
such a big deal, you don't understand what the battle was
about and how people were getting killed on, you know,
people having to poison their kids to death or or lose custody
of their kids. And Duisburg is sitting there,
like writing letters, testifying, showing up.
It was a blood battle. It was terrifying.

(45:22):
It was terrifying. A lot of people died.
I've friends who were murdered. So I get emotional about these
people who have like the luxury just to turn up now, you know,
until those people, they're, they're the, and the memory of
those people that that they're bullshit.
I, I sort of can't believe it from a spiritual perspective.

(45:45):
I can't believe being that uncharitable.
It's very arrogant. It's self important.
These purity tests are destructive.
They don't actually do anything good.
They think this is how purists think.
Purist revolutionaries think like we are the do you know how

(46:09):
many times we had purity cults in the HIV like this one came
along that they were always brand new and they came in all
of you are what you've done. OK, nice try, but you're
bullshit. But I have the purity angle and
I'm going to, you know, send them all into a cocktail.
I'm going to push them. This is grandiosity.

(46:29):
It is a gross misunderstanding of the depth, scope, and nature
of this evil that one is up against.
One is not up against. Virology 1 is up against an evil
system that wants to depopulate the world.
It's essentially the new world order and this is the blind

(46:51):
spot. It's actually way less stressful
to just deal with dispatching ofvirology if you're not taking
into account the actual political, ideological and
spiritual beast behind it all. Behind both of these things,
yeah. You briefly mentioned Delini
Papadopoulos. Most people don't know her name

(47:14):
and she did incredible work. She did incredible work and she
was a she was a lovely human being.
Sorry, I pronounced it Eleni, but how is it pronounced?
She was her. First name I I've always heard
Eleni Eleni Eleni. Yes, Eleni.
I want to explain. That the rift that happened and

(47:36):
then so the rift that happened then and then how it has mutated
into the present day rift. Around Eleni's work.
There is a commonly held view that was held by many HIV
dissidents at the time that Peter Duesberg had by not

(48:00):
accepting what Eleni, what Eleniand the Perth group were saying
that HIV's existence had not been proven.
They were always very careful not to say HIV does not exist,
but there's no proof of its existence.
To put it simply, Peter Duesbergcame back and said I.
Think. It exists, but is harmless.

(48:23):
It's to each person to decide whether that is a, like
something worthy of, of a war, adivide that's worthy of, of a,
of, of a total split, or whetherthat's a fractional difference

(48:45):
for a person who is quote, UN quote, diagnosed as HIV positive
and told they're going to die. And that's really who we should
be focusing on. What's the difference to that
person? 1 camp is saying HIV exists but

(49:05):
is harmless. You don't need to worry about
it. It is not going to kill you.
And 1 camp is saying, in fact, there's no proof of its
existence. I feel that that becomes a very
esoteric, almost like ivory tower distinction.
I always felt that. I always felt that can we please

(49:27):
stay united and keep hostilitiesout?
I can't answer for or explain why Peter doesn't see Eleni's
case, but what began to happen was there was a a story that
grew that Peter had sabotaged Elainy's work by not recognizing

(49:54):
it. I know that she had a lot of
pain and anguish about it. She respected him, she loved
him. She did feel thwarted, rejected
by his inability to see what shewas saying, and it caused a
tremendous and deep painful riftin the in the movement from

(50:16):
which we never recovered. And the HIV descent movement
crumbled along these lines. Now to see it flare up again in
an even more malignant form, which is also a historical
because the people jumping on the bandwagon now don't know the
history and aren't interested inthe history.

(50:38):
But it's become fashionable to posit this point of purity as
the one pinnacle of saving the world.
If we dispatch of the notion of viruses existing, we'll say

(50:58):
we'll save the world, right? Everything will be fine.
But I, I, I argue that, that, that no, that that is to
willfully ignore the entirety ofthe violent apparatus built
around this whole thing. It's to suggest that all that is

(51:19):
required is a precise correctionof what I call an esoteric
scientific difference. I think that issue is important
and they can battle it out and, and God bless them and good luck
to them. But it, it isn't going to help
people under, under, you know, caught in the death trap.

(51:47):
Yes. So they're different issues.
What are you trying to achieve, right?
Are you? Trying to get the trap?
Or are you trying to achieve scientific exactitude and
rightness and correctness in some place in another dimension?
I don't know. They are different.
Quests. They are, Celia, because if you

(52:12):
go around shouting viruses don'texist, what is it that you're
trying to achieve? Let's just say I agree with you.
Let's just say, OK, sure, I agree, virus don't exist.
What now? Well, it's, it's, it's, it's,

(52:34):
it's a very strange, it's a verystrange piece of discourse
because it doesn't go anywhere. It's a very strange piece of
discourse. I would like to put on the table
the word and examine it very closely.
Their word exist. The word exist to exist.

(52:56):
I have argued and I argue that HIV and COVID, let's let's start
with HIV. It was brought into into being
not merely as a biological artifact or non artifact, but as

(53:20):
a massive spiritual attack made possible by diabolical
technologies that were created to in to induce and suggest its

(53:41):
presence. The so-called HIV tests and the
entire propaganda apparatus around HIV.
So I actually argue there was anit that exists.
It's like saying does a malevolent spirit exist?
If you can't see it and put it in a bottle and throw it over a

(54:04):
Cliff, it's still perturbing. And this gets into, are we
secular materialists or do we believe this is spiritual
warfare, which I do. So I think I had to fight.
We had to fight quote UN quote HIV as a diabolical,

(54:30):
technocratic, possessed idea andset of technologies that very
much existed because they made it exist.
It wasn't really going to help us that the IT didn't exist in
its purest form as a biological pathogen.
Again, I think it is to look away from the beast itself and

(54:55):
everything that the beast uses to crush people.
Do you think a lot of that is byemergence or by design?
I have come to believe it's by design.

(55:17):
So like infiltration? Yeah, I, I, I believe that our
that as a, as a so-called movement, our biggest mistake
was to never consider infiltration.
Hang on. Sorry.
See here. Sorry, sorry, sorry.
I'm going to jump in right there.
You've said movement a few timesand I I kind of get
uncomfortable when you say movement.

(55:38):
I know. Because of.
Yeah. OK, OK, let me let me define it.
We're left with some words that I'm also uncomfortable with the
so-called HIV dissident movement.
So I don't mean to derail you, but it no but.

(55:59):
It's like people that came together in different countries
from all different walks of lifeand all different disciplines
who support. Collective.
Yeah, but see, that's the wrong it.
Yeah, Collective. Why?
Why it makes me feel awkward is because movement seems to
suggest that it's outside of of science.

(56:20):
Yeah, OK. It was very much a cyan
scientific battle, which was battling something that was
parascientific. Does that make sense?
One. 100%. They had introduced the

(56:41):
parascientific, and I said in Robert F Kennedy Junior's book,
The Real Anthony Fauci, that what made Fauci so dangerous as
a revolutionary, there's that word again, was that he took
American science, which up to that point could have been
called classical empirical. You prove things.

(57:04):
If it doesn't, if it's not proven, it gets thrown out.
Everybody agrees it has to be true, it has to be proven.
And he imbued it with this new thing, which, for lack of a
better word, I would call woke as a as a spiritual infection,
as an idea, an ideology, something Fauci could use and
did use masterfully. So now there was woke biology,

(57:28):
which the classical scientists were horrified by.
What are you talking? In other words, everybody gets
AIDS, everybody's at equal risk.It spreads like this.
And all of that was woke garbage.
But it flew because AIDS was notscientific.
It was not a normal disease. It was a an installed set of

(57:51):
revolutionary ideologies that were installed around notions of
public health, contagion, human intimacy.
This is all social engineering, according to me, but everybody
fought it where they fought it. And those who fight it, you
know, if only we had gotten it right, if only Duesberg had

(58:13):
gotten out of the way or bowed down to Eleni and the Perth
group, we could have. I sort of can't believe that's
even an argument or that anybodywho has studied the any history
of violent overthrows and revolutions could think that
that would have saved the day. It's it's, it's totally baffling

(58:36):
to me. We've been fighting this HIV
AIDS information war since the 80s from back when they called
it grid and then they didn't like the word gay being included
in it, so they changed it. I mean just just on that.
Anybody who spends 30 seconds thinking about it, its so-called

(58:57):
origins should laugh the whole thing off.
I mean, it was this, this, this supposed virus that suddenly
didn't like gay men in New York nightclubs and at the same time
didn't like a group of black people in Africa.
The whole thing didn't make any sense.

(59:18):
And then they they took years totry and formalize some sort of
definition for it, if I if I have my understanding correct.
I think you just put your fingeron something very important.
The whole thing didn't make any sense.
What if that's the actual attack?
What if that's the actual attack?
To introduce this is sort of gets into MK Ultra Monarch mind

(59:41):
control to, to, to break realityin people's minds, to get to
introduce this new grand scale gas lighting thing where things
don't have to make sense. That's why we went so
collectively and individually out of our minds because we were
the, you know, this doesn't makeany sense and this isn't adding
up. And it, as I say it did, it

(01:00:02):
never put a dent in it. And so I want people to
understand that these things arebuilt that way before they are
launched. They're built to not like
infinitely elastic. So HIV theory, such as it was.
Could be stretched, whatever happened that that did not make

(01:00:23):
any sense and did not add up. They just stretched it and it,
it swallowed it up, it accommodated it, it added some
new woke language and then presto, it was the new thing and
the new thing. So I'm not just saying that they
were dogmatic and had all the money and had all the violence.
I'm saying the whole thing that they were operating in was not a

(01:00:44):
thing that had any interest in being right or making sense
where we were, like that train had left the station.
And so now we're into something.What I'm invoking here is that
this is a characteristic of thiswhole era that we're in, if you

(01:01:04):
think about it, like inversion, confusion, gaslighting.
I mean, sending things down on our brains, telling us they are
happening and they are real thataren't even designed to make
sense until they fall apart. They they arrive as like your

(01:01:25):
brain gets so mangled trying to accept it or adopt it.
So that's, that's one of the characteristics of a cult,
right? Or of A and I think that part is
deliberate. But where they cook these things
up is, is another thing altogether, where they, in other
words, this thing was hatched somewhere, not just Gallo

(01:01:48):
standing there saying we have found the the probable cause of
AIDS in the United States government and all of that, but
the whole thing. So let's just talk about it for
a moment. People were overnight mass
induced to believe that a new deadly virus, in this case

(01:02:08):
retrovirus, had jumped species from an African green monkey.
This really is the origin theory.
I'm not joking. Via a Canadian flight attendant
that was written about in a bookthat was fiction by Randy

(01:02:28):
Schultz. And people were then induced to
believe that this bugaboo, this it was anywhere, could be
anywhere, could be on a toilet seat, could be on a salad leaf.
Gay men would come home for Thanksgiving.
And after they left, their mothers would like throw the

(01:02:49):
dishes out, you know, so, so it really was the dawn, the
introduction of terrorizing, terrorizing, baseless contagion
theory for the modern age. And what a toy for them.
Imagine what they could do with this new evil toy because they
knew somehow that there's something in the human psyche

(01:03:12):
that responds to these ideas of contagion with tremendous force,
with tremendous fear. And then to think that all that
all those decades of blood, sweat and tears from all the
dissident movement, sorry, all the dissident configurations in
different countries, including yours, your country made a great

(01:03:34):
contribution that all of that went into the the gutter.
And COVID comes along and it's even more batshit and surreal
and like not even, it's like a bad cartoon.
It's a, it's not even a, it's not even a good, it's not even a

(01:03:59):
good pack of lies. And yet COVID flies even more
than AIDS did. People believed it even more
than they believed it. People just believed it.
So, so the social engineers obviously know something about
our our deepest psyches. I, I can't believe anybody
believed it. I can't believe anybody believed

(01:04:23):
like, for example, in a city like New York City where I'm
from, that after all, all this time of being New York City
where people are coming in from,all of you know, it's it's.
It's a filthy place that Oh no, now there's this this little
thing that you know is going to kill everybody.
I I don't know what that of course I was immunized against

(01:04:45):
it from my work, but what I'm trying to say.
Is this all really should be addressed as massive MK Ultra
mind control projects first? And social engineering projects

(01:05:06):
first, money laundering, criminal cartels first, and then
I don't even know what the. Point is anymore of of tinkering
with the science and one thing that was different about COVID,
it didn't even have a didn't even have a father.
Bob Gallo at least was standing up there making his insane

(01:05:28):
claims about so-called HIV. But nobody fathered SARS COV 2
as the cause of AIDS, as a causation theory.
Proving my point again, that they launched these things, the
global beast, and it's decades in the planning and they know

(01:05:49):
something about our psyches and they have all the patents and
all the technologies and they have their aims, which I don't
think we quite understand yet. We understand they wanted to
kill a lot of people. We understand it was a test run.
And I really think if people want to understand what might
they actually be up to, you really have to look into the
deep history of the New World Order, the deep Masonic plots,

(01:06:14):
the Club of Rome, all that kind of stuff.
And people who like to focus on esoteric science, they'd never
touch that stuff. Have you noticed that?
Yes, just for clarity, because somebody listening to this for

(01:06:35):
the first time might not be following terribly much of what
you're not talking about. Because my assumption is that
whoever's listening to this already knows your work and
already kind of knows the subject matter.
But the gist of it is that thereisn't evidence that, based on

(01:07:00):
the current definition of HIV, such a pathogen exists and
spreads to another person and causes something called AIDS.
Correct, correct. And the way you can.
OK, let's look around for a moment.
It's 2025. You have the, for example, the P

(01:07:23):
Diddy trial, or you take a figure like Jeffrey Epstein, or
you take a figure like, I mean, forget, leave aside for a moment
the issue of blackmail, human trafficking, child trafficking,
which is what we usually think we're talking about only when we

(01:07:43):
talk about these figures. But think about the sex part for
a moment, and then think about AIDS theory for a moment.
Back in the 80s, the the mantra and the indoctrination, the
heavy revolutionary indoctrination was that any act
of unprotected sex could kill anybody, any broken condom, et

(01:08:06):
cetera. Why wouldn't the most?
And they have only fans. I mean, you, you have a world
now that is very sexually promiscuous.
You could even say it's like it's all like a big sort of, or
it's like orgiastic, right? Sex is out of every off of every

(01:08:28):
kind of harness or chain, right?This is a highly, highly
sexualized era. And what do you never hear?
I got AIDS from, you know, you have these, these women also,
you know this, this just screamsto have a stock to me.
These blonde British women who claim they're having, you know,

(01:08:49):
has sex with 1000 men a day. It is unbelievable and it's so
gross. Because again, again, again,
they're trying to break our souls.
And you know about, because you interviewed Mike Williams, you
know that The Beatles was one ofthe one of the first big social
engineering project like a wedgeweapon to shatter family values,

(01:09:15):
Christian ethos, all kinds. So this is what these this crowd
is always after. And I don't.
See any chance whatsoever that those those only fans women?
And it's really odd that they'realways British and they look
very similar. They're all blonde, they're all
British, they look very similar.This is an OP.

(01:09:36):
And So what does that OP want? It wants to destroy women.
I think the main goal of these people, the number one goal is
to destroy women and to destroy human bonds and to destroy the

(01:10:00):
human soul. So if we want to take a step
back and say, wait, really HIV wasn't correct, I just ask
people, it's like when when you OK psyops, they're all over 911
psyop, AIDS psyop, COVID psyop. The way to see them you know
Pearl Harbor like it takes about20 years and then it the back

(01:10:26):
end like like as if half an airplane just.
Fell off. It just falls off.
It's just not there. The thing that they used to make
to forge it to weaponize it is evidently not happening in our
world. But it has moved on.
And the OP doesn't want to be correct or true or right or
proven right or nobody. It doesn't need to be.

(01:10:49):
It's an attack and it serves itspurpose in its time.
And then they move on to the next attack.
But if we're still talking about, can we be certain that
HIV theory, which was that it was a sexually transmissible
disease, highly transmissible, very invariably lethal, but it
was supposed to be sexual. And This is why I insist Dusberg

(01:11:12):
deserves way more credit from his contemporary critics in the
no virus movement. Because I remember vividly and I
broke out in a cold sweat when he, when he came out and said
it's not sexually transmissible,right?
And then we had all all kinds ofthings we came upon that there

(01:11:34):
was no HIV in human semen. And so, so these wars, you see,
were and now they're pushing so much sex and they're simply not
mentioning it. When was the last time you heard
anybody mention oh be careful with sex you could get AIDS.
It's over in South Africa. In South Africa you never hear
anything about it. It's over long gone.

(01:11:54):
It's over, right? So.
So what are we actually talking about right now when we talk
about hindsight and who was right?
If if HIV theory were true and it's a virus that's contagious,
why is there no vaccine? Yeah, that's a weird, that's a

(01:12:17):
weird one because there was but Gallo as you know, but there
would be afterwards and this again, Duisburg, Duisburg always
said that. So, so how did they tell people
they quote UN quote had it had HIV?
They said it was antibodies, normally the thing in the

(01:12:40):
classical world that they blew up overnight, that was how it
was determined that you had defeated an infection.
That was the premise of vaccinology.
So how would you develop an AIDSvaccine that would induce
antibodies that are, what are they like the good antibodies?
Where's the HIV positive infected, stained, tarnished,

(01:13:01):
doomed people have the bad antibodies.
It's all batshit. That's what's hardest to
believe, that it's all batshit multi trillion dollar bat shit.
I asked a gay friend of mine if he knows of any gay people who
have AIDS and he said no. Now that might just be anecdotal

(01:13:25):
and he is a normie so to speak, but he literally.
He literally takes poppers. Interesting.
Well, I have come to think that we had one of our blind spots in
the dissident discourse was the hepatitis B vaccine in the late

(01:13:47):
70s that went out to gay men in the big cities in America.
And I think maybe that we alwayssaid it was so Dusberg in his
defense, when they insisted, well, Dusberg, if HIV doesn't
cause AIDS, then what does? And he formulated his
toxicological model that it was a drug, a chemical, It's.
Likely no, it's likely. But there could have been a kick

(01:14:10):
off, a kick off factor like that, that like the hepatitis B
vaccine program. I just, we just didn't really
talk about that because we just thought it was probably drug
induced multifactorial. But all I can say is there's
just like something did happen and we were never quite able to
create the perfect causation model.

(01:14:32):
Only we all only to say the the one they gave us is definitely
false. But then it's.
Also it's, it's this collection,it's a whole, Yeah.
What is? It we're even talking about
right there was a clear it gay men in cities like New York, Los
Angeles, and so in the late 70s,early 80s and they had very

(01:14:52):
clear they had Kaposi sarcoma, they had pneumocystis chorinea
pneumonia. There was an it.
It was a catastrophic. I don't even know if.
It's correct to say immune crash, but you know there was an
IT and they called it acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome,
which was a correct name then. Follow this when Gallo announced

(01:15:18):
his. Virus as the cause of AIDS and
patented the first HIV test. I think his patent kicked in the
day after now, and this is very sinister.
What happens right here? They kick the.
Ball. Out So now AIDS becomes
something that you determine by way of an antibody test and it

(01:15:41):
is something that will come to you in the future according to
these Wizards, according to these witch doctors that you
test. And the first they said one year
you will probably be dead withina year of testing.
So this is healthy people now. Oh my God.
And they test and they test positive and then we say they
have AIDS because they have tested positive.

(01:16:03):
So the better part of our war was about separating all this
out there, wasn't it? Men who had AIDS, most of them
were finished off by by AZT in the early years and then later.
Including famous people like Freddie Mercury.
Yep. And Nuria Van Arthur Ashe.

(01:16:23):
Yep. And Keith Haring died of DDI
within a week or two and was healthy.
So do you see what I'm saying? If you see it like a split, a
split history in the beginning, there are real sick people, real
gay. Gay men are sick and showing up
at hospitals. There's an IT, then comes the
HIV is the cause of AIDS announcement from Gallo, Then

(01:16:45):
comes the HIV test and now it fans out into this massive net
based on this totally non specific technology that cross
reacts with at least up to 60 different non HIV proteins and
factors. Now you're in into the big money

(01:17:09):
because and and it resembles themonetary system in the following
way. I'm a little obsessed with this
and I wonder if you if this willresonate with you.
It's a debt. It's the first debt based
syndrome where you're projectingpeople to be indebted to their
putative illness in the future based on your theology of that

(01:17:31):
HIV will lead to AIDS. Did they ever have, let me ask
everybody this, did they ever have a group of people who
converted to 80, converted to HIV positivity and they watched
them and they thought, oh, they get sick after five years, 10
years, 20 years, 30 years. Of course not.
It was entirely fictional. They make things up and that's

(01:17:53):
what we can't understand as sortof children of the of the grand
experiment, like we can't understand that they just make
things up, but they do. So now you have people who are
are endlessly getting tested. They're gay men, they're
sexually active and they are worried about, they're properly
worried about HIV AIDS accordingto, you know, proper doctrine.

(01:18:16):
So they're getting tested all the time.
All the money comes in tested, tested.
They're getting their viral loadtested and now you really also
have to introduce what about themind?
They've been told they're doomed.
They've been told they're essentially already dead.
Now they're going on a battery of medications which are

(01:18:38):
extremely toxic to the liver andother organs.
And now they're beginning to diewith syndromes, you know, get
sick and die with syndromes thatare, guess what, so similar to
AIDS. And that's, they built that into
it too. It's all built so that you can't
tell what is what. You can't make any distinctions.

(01:18:59):
And that's in the design. Yes, confusion leads to mass
anxiety, as Matthias Desmond hasspoken about.
And when you have mass anxiety, you have a lot of people
grabbing onto perhaps bad ideas.And that's what and that's what
he calls mass formation. Yeah, you asked about light and

(01:19:20):
hope. I think maybe the light is
streaming in from all directions, but it's not, it's
definitely not going to be a bigmoment like the fall of the
Berlin Wall. The it's the light is in how
open minded, astute, alert, questioning and spell breaking

(01:19:44):
so many people are now. The light is in the mass
rejection of mass media and the the spell casters and the mass
awareness that the media is justa mammoth mind control CI AM K
ultra project. That's because COVID was such a
sloppy OP. Even though it was successful in

(01:20:06):
many ways, it was very sloppy and crude and they alienated.
Most people, I mean, they alienated all but the most
totally prone to indoctrination.So they lost a lot of people.
So that I call, I would call that light.

(01:20:26):
We're kind of in we're kind of in the Enlightenment in that in
that regard, we're not saved, right.
No one's coming to save us. These people are still at their
posts working. They're evil.
But when we were when this wholenightmare began, most people
could not conceive of why would Fauci lie and get why would all

(01:20:50):
why would they all lie? Why would that was the average
response? Oh, they wouldn't.
It was sort of like everybody thought, you know, Daddy
wouldn't do that to us, whether it was Daddy Public Health or
Daddy Media. What is your sub stacks address?
It is Celia, Celia Farber at I'msorry, celiafarber.substack.com.

(01:21:17):
It's called The Truth Barrier, and my book, I'll hold it up is
called Serious Adverse Events. An Uncensored History of AIDS
came out. It was reissued in 2023.
It's on what's it called, Amazonin the 1st chapter.

(01:21:38):
I just want to say this a lot. We've talked a lot about Peter
Dusberg in this interview and what they did to him is all
summed up in what I think is my favorite chapter in the book,
which is chapter 1, and it's called The Passion of Peter
Dusberg. I wrote it for Harper's in 2006.
CDF Harbor, thank you for joining me in the Drangers.

(01:22:01):
Thank you, Jeremy. Thank you so much.