China is neither totalitarian nor utopian

Jerm and Carl Zha challenge Western myths about China, revealing a complex, fast-changing nation often safer and more nuanced than portrayed.More Jerm interviews: https://www.ukcolumn.org/series/jerm-warfare

Episode Transcript

(00:38):
A good opening question is why is this such a difficult nut to
crack? Well, I think there are many
reasons, but most of all it's, it's China is culturally
distant. It's geographically and
culturally distant from most of the Western, especially Anglo
English speaking world, right. You know from where you are, you

(01:01):
are, you are. Even though South Africa is part
of the BRICS, we're still a continent apart.
And you know, forget about America.
It's like this whole Pacific Ocean.
And a lot of people, there's just a lot of general ignorance
about China. And because of that, I think to
fill in the blank, it's easy forpropaganda to take take its

(01:22):
place, to take place of like real information.
A lot of people, they will have 4 very strong opinions about
China. Even though they may have never
been to China or they don't readChinese.
So they, they receive a lot of so-called, you know, receive
wisdoms from their media or from, you know, quote UN quote

(01:43):
alternative news channel they trust, which might not always be
the, you know, most objective and impartial.
That's what why we're here, right?
Because I'm, I'm trying to provide some Chinese perspective
as a person who was born in China, you know, back in 1976
after one month after Mao died. So I grew up in China.

(02:07):
As good old days. Yeah, like good old good old
days. Like I I grew up in China as the
first post Cultural Revolution. Chinese, Yeah.
I can tell you all about the good old days.
And so I, I have, I have my perspective.
I, I grew up in China in the 1980s.
I have a very happy childhood. You know, I, This is why I've
always have very fond memories of China.

(02:29):
And I, I, I, you know, I've beenvisiting, visiting China on and
off. Last time I was there, it was
this year, in fact, in, in April, April and early May.
So, and every time I, I go there, it's actually like a
visiting a different place because the, the pace of change
in China happened so rapidly. I remember the the the former

(02:53):
Czech president, what's his name, Pavel Havel, he said China
changed so fast for us, changes too fast for us to be
astonished. And I think that's exactly it,
because a lot of the people, they may have heard from someone
who been to China maybe in the 1990s or in the early 2000, but

(03:15):
that China is gone. That's that China doesn't exist
anymore. That's.
Like because it's it's. China had changed so fast, it
might as well be like a generation ago, right?
Like my, my little cousin who were more than 20 years apart
and her, the world she grew up in in China is completely

(03:35):
different world from the one I grew up in.
And, and she is actually the, the zoomer population of China
or the late millennials in China.
They are the first generation inChina that grew up in with
abundance with like. They can take abundance for
granted. When I grew up in China, let me
tell you, I I had to live with ration papers.

(03:58):
I live in an age with rations where you need ration paper for
everything, for rice, for sugar,for cooking oil.
And my, my, my, my auntie would send me to at that time.
You can't just go to a supermarket to get rice, you go
to government. Government approved rice station
to get rice with your ration papers and I I, I get most of

(04:22):
the ration in the family becausethat was a growing teenager, so
actually get the most allotment of rice.
And I will be the one who taskedto go to the government rice
station to haul back like, you know, 20 kilos of rice back
home. Yeah, of course, I back then
there's also no car. So I I did it all.
Like on my back and walking up and down the mountains.

(04:45):
Back in the days, yeah. No, I'm not.
Kidding. I'm not kidding.
I'm not kidding about up and down the mountains, by the way,
because I live in, yeah, I live in Chongqing.
Chongqing, for people who don't know, it's a very mountainous
city. The whole city is built on top
of the mountains. So there's a quite great
variation of elevation within the city.
So like the, the Rice Nation is actually like, it's like I have

(05:09):
to climb to go to the rice station and come back down.
So I I was not kidding about going up the mountains to get
rice. Yeah, call just before we go any
further because you know, we have to bring this up.
You and I are obviously both funded by the CCP and we, we are
we are government shells. So everything that we say is, of

(05:33):
course, Chinese propaganda. Yes, I'm, I'm still waiting for
my checks to clear from Xi Jinping.
I told him to put put in the mail last time, but you know,
I'm still waiting for that to clear.
Yeah. Also, I deliberately said CCP
because we know that that is the, that's the dog whistle.
If someone says CCP we we already know that we have to

(05:56):
look at them with the, with the,with the, with the, with an evil
eye. Right, it's true.
I mean the official English translation is Communist Party
of China, so CPC. I mean in Chinese it doesn't
really matter but I think in English they every time they
mention CCP it's like. CCP is going to take over the

(06:18):
world. CCP is sabotaging your
government. CCP is listening to you.
But you know what? That's the point.
That's the point called when thethe term CCP originates, I think
out of the West. Not If someone says CPC, you
know that they probably know something about China, right?

(06:38):
Correct. That's fair.
Yeah. So anyway, yeah, I, I have a
Direct Line to Xi Jinping, right?
I get my, that's where I get my instructions, they told me.
To go to Germs Show this week, you're going to you're going to
receive your. Or else you're going to be shot.
Yes, yes. But that's the other thing about
trying to that's the other thingabout trying to debunk myths

(06:59):
like this. So I'm fascinated by by China.
As somebody who is an African, the whole world fascinates me
because we are so behind everything, right?
And for the longest time called I believed all the nonsense
about China and, and it's only in recent years we are decided.

(07:20):
I wanted to challenge my own understanding what I had been
fed. And it's almost like it's
completely inverted. It's easy.
It's easy to to believe because,you know, otherwise a lot of
people just don't have any information about China.

(07:42):
So you kind of whoever fills that blank sheet is going to,
you know that. And usually that's the
mainstream legacy media or some quote, UN quote alternative
media that turns out to be founded by like NEDUSAID or, you
know, all these three letter agencies.
And, and those, those, those areones that actually doing the

(08:05):
most numbers on, on place like YouTube, because they're also
kind of tell people what they want to hear.
Because especially as China start to rise and China's grow
in importance in the world now there's a lot of copium that's
been produced about China, especially in the West.
You know, like they, they don't want to, you know, they, they

(08:28):
don't want the, the automatic isalmost automatic rejection to
reject anything positive about China.
People kind of put a like a negative spin on it.
There must be something kind of like there's there's there's
must be some dark insidious reason behind the rise of China

(08:50):
and there must be like some bad,potentially ominous impact of
rise of China. And I think it's also serves to
distract from the political realities at home, particularly
in the West. I mean, especially in USI work.
That's that's a place where I live for almost 30 years.
And and I think for most Americans living in the US, it's

(09:13):
obvious to them the place is dysfunctional.
I mean, we have a freaking TV reality TV show.
Host as a president and then, and then.
But what they don't want you to?See, is that OK, that China is
doing something differently, youknow, rather than plowing

(09:36):
trillions of dollars into funding wars around the world
that you can actually invest in your own infrastructure and
education and propel the countryforward?
They don't want you to think about that.
You know, instead they, they putout the information to convince
you, yes, yes, United States might be bad, yes, yes, Europe

(09:56):
might be dysfunctional, but China is much, much worse, much,
much darker. Do not look to China as an
alternative. Don't do it.
You know, it's, it's bad. It's it's, it's worse, in fact.
So I think that that's the purpose of those propaganda.
And This is why I highly encourage people to actually go
travel to China, you know, to, to, to let your lying eyes

(10:17):
convince you, you know what, what is reality?
I mean you. You.
You, you kind of travel to the periphery of China.
Hong Kong is part of China now. It's still a little bit
different from mainland China, but at least you got there.
You know, you, you, you, you have, you have seen.
You have seen what the yeast is like.
Unlike most people. But Carl, you know that

(10:40):
someone's going to ask. Yes, but why then did you leave
China? Why are you living in the US?
OK, that's, that's a good question.
That's a fair question. Well, my dad traveled to United
States in 1985. He was the first post Cultural
Revolution generation of Chinesestudents that was sent abroad.
So back in the 1980s. Then Xiaoping said, OK, we, we

(11:01):
got to send Chinese students arebrought to learn because like
China has fallen behind in in science and in development.
So we need to go to to send students to the Western
countries to learn advanced technology, learn the, the, the
advanced management methods, youknow, whatever.

(11:23):
But he and he also said, I understand most of them will
never come back just because in the 1980s China was very poor
and obviously you can get much more paying jobs in the West.
You say it's okay. It's okay that most of them
don't come back. Even if 20% of them do come
back, that would be a net plus for us.
You know, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's better than 0.

(11:45):
And so my dad did go to United States to study for his PhD and
they brought me to US in 1989. So 1989 was the, the year of the
Tiananmen Square protest. So my dad did not agree with the
government, how the government handled the Tiananmen Square
protest. So they decide not to come back
to China. And then they brought me to

(12:07):
United States. So that's, that's how I, I ended
up in US as a teenager and like I was 13 years old.
And, and one thing that start tochange, though, is by, I think
most of them, my dad's Chinese classmates, they also stay in
the US after they graduated, they went to the, you know, they

(12:28):
got green card, got citizenship,this they joined the US
corporate world. But after about 10 or 20 years,
many of them kind of hit like. Hit the the glass.
Ceiling or or or bamboo ceiling because they find themselves can
no longer rise to the top to thetop management for various
reasons. And then then this coincided

(12:51):
around 2000, early 2000 to 2010 when Chinese economy start
taking off. So many, the most ambitious one
do return to China because they realize in China the sky is the
limit. They can, they can be CE OS,
they can be founder of companies.
You know, there's not, none of that restriction they face in

(13:12):
the West. You know, like example, I I
think for people might be familiar with is the founder of
TSMC Taiwan Semiconductors, Morris Chen.
I mean, this, this he's he went to Taiwan by very similar
circumstances. So, so Morris Chen was born in
China then he when he was a little kid, you know, he, he
immigrated to the United States because the communists won on

(13:35):
mainland and he was, you know, he was a very important top
management in, in Texas Instrument, which is a big tech
company in United States. But after a while, he realized
he wants a top job. He wants the CEO.
But after, afterwards, even though after all everything he

(13:56):
did for Texas Instrument, he realized they're not going to
give him that top job, you know,And so, you know, whether
because he's Chinese or whatever, but he wasn't going to
get that top job. And at that time, the Taiwan
government approached him and said, hey, we're going to give
you tons of money. We're going to give you a lot of
tax incentives for you to open the semiconductor business in

(14:19):
Taiwan. You know, using your experience
in the industry and your connections in USI think we can
make a success. So that's what he did.
So now Taiwan Semiconductors is like the one of the most
valuable firm in the world because they produce the most
advanced semiconductor chips that everybody needs.
But this this same kind of process was playing out with

(14:40):
mainland China as well. A lot of the Chinese talent went
back to China, China because that's where the opportunity is
that that's where they can, you know, they, they, they can get
higher achievement. And this is kind of the
fundamental understanding the West about China stealing
technology, quote, UN quote. I mean, I'm pretty sure

(15:01):
industrial espionage does happen.
I mean, that that happened everywhere.
But the real process of knowledge transfer is these
Chinese students who were sent out by Deng Xiaoping back in the
80s, even though Deng Xiaoping knew most of them will not
return within his lifetime, but many of them did after 2220 tens
when China economy start taking off and they brought back the

(15:24):
knowledge and you know, the experience again, working the
Western companies and that, that's, that's kind of the main,
main driver for, for kind of the, the, the, the, the, the
technology transfer that did take place between China and
West. And I don't know, I, I, I feel
like I went off on tangent because we're, I'm worried I'm

(15:45):
you're just going everywhere. But but it doesn't.
Matter No your your your espionage comment is actually
very good because the Chinese hyper what what do you call them
hyper fast rail railways trains that they are currently building
yeah yeah apparently a lot of that tech comes from Japan now I

(16:06):
don't really have a. Problem and Germany.
Yeah, I don't have a problem with this because it's better
for people. Well, well that that technology
is not stolen. That was bought.
It was when so back in 2000 O 8,when China started to this
massive banishing of their high speed rail project, they invited

(16:27):
different Western companies to bid for the project.
So including Simon's from Germany, the including Japan,
including Bombardier from Canada.
And the condition is, OK, we're going to give you this huge
contract. But our condition is you must
produce in China. You, you, you must, we, we

(16:50):
might, you have must have given like license production in China
and you must do technology transfer.
So this is all about the table like as a, as a condition for
market access to China, you got to do technology transfer.
And and all these company, they kind of weigh the pro and cons,
but they couldn't say no to shittons of money.

(17:11):
They say OK, yeah, well, I mean,not only transfer that, that,
that, that you know that that will take time, you know that
the money money we can get it now.
And So what happened is China was able to absorb this
different technology from Japan,from Germany, and after 5-10
years they were able to indigenize the technology.
And now China is exporting high speed rail across the world.

(17:34):
But from the very beginning was very above the table.
It was like any foreign firms who come to China, you have to
do now technology transfer is part of the deal as a condition
for giving you the market access.
Now China was able to demand that because China was big
market and a big giant pool of cheap labor.

(17:56):
That's the main draw for a lot of Western multinationals to do
business in China age but. They're all slaves, Call.
Yeah, it's all slaves. Of course, of course, of course.
I mean the that is that kind of.Mean kind of persist to today,
right? I mean, China, it got to where

(18:18):
they are because they're all slave labor.
I remember reading a tweet from Scott Adams, the creator of
Dilbert comic, right? I, I, I love Dilbert.
I used to read Dilbert. But he said she a decent guy.
He, I mean, he's, he's a well educated American, right?
He's you can't say he's ignorant.
He's a well educated like, like you can't consider sort of

(18:39):
public intellectual in in UnitedUnited States.
But he said, you know, so the oh, oh, when, when everybody
move on to robotics on automation, you know, China is
going to be screwed because they're going to be screwed out
of their advantage in cheap labor.
Now, this is just ignorance about China because if you

(18:59):
actually look at the statistics,China employed more industrial
robots today than the rest of the world combined.
And and they. Actually, you know their.
Factories, they have like lightsoff factories like entirely
automated assembly lines at putting together EVs, putting
together cars. So, so China is well prepared

(19:21):
for, for automation. It's much more prepared in
automation than say United States because US don't have
manufacturing anymore. China they're actually applying
robotic AI and and robotics in their advanced manufacturing.
This is why China is presenting a bigger threat now to a lot of
their Western competitors. Is This is why you can get more

(19:42):
China threat articles in the West because of that, you know,
they talk about Chinese over capacity made in China 2025 how
China is going to like, you know, take over the world
because it's the government subsidized everything.
It's unfair competition. But look if Chinese government.
Trump's going to save the world.Tariffs call.

(20:06):
Tariffs are going to save everybody.
I think, I think only, only onlysome segment Americans believe
that at this point, but you know, because there's, it's such
low information. I mean, I don't, I can't speak

(20:27):
about South Africa, but I, I went through the, the American
public education system. I can tell you the American
public education system is crap.They they, they like, like like.
Mark Twin said you know if you are, if you well, he said about
newspaper, he said, you know, ifyou if you don't, if you don't

(20:49):
read newspapers, you are ignorant.
If you if you read newspapers, then you're misinformed and.
But this is how American education works.
If you don't go to school, you're not educated, but if you
go to school, you're mis educated.
So, so you're there's no win situation.
And, and but we have. This is why how we got Trump in

(21:11):
the office. This in the 1st place, but the
The thing is there's a lot of projection when the West talk
about China, they're they're talking about China as a country
per SE. They're talking about China more
as a foil as like a projection of their worst fears, right.
And like when a lot of time whenespecially United States, when

(21:33):
they talk about China, it's almost 100%, you know,
projection, you know, when they talk about China as a, as a, as
a dystopian surveillance state, for example, right?
And with the social credit system?
With the social credit system, right and, and, but in reality,
Trump just authorized the private company Palantir to

(21:57):
access all the US government records.
Like look first of all as as a person who hold US passport at
this moment. I don't care if China get my
data because China don't have jurisdiction over me.
Chinese government can't do anything to me.
But I've been more concerned when the NSA read my e-mail and

(22:17):
and volunteer have all my data because they can't get me, you
know, they I have to pay taxes to Uncle Sam.
They can. They can get me for one reason
or another and. And and and and and and also the
social credit system is not a thing in China.
It's it's a myth. There's there's no such thing as
social credit system. I mean, you might.
Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on.

(22:37):
Sorry, Carl, let me just let me jump in there because this
happens all the time. I have, I have these discussions
constantly and this is the response I get.
Well, you don't live in China. How would you know?
OK, fine. So let me speak to somebody
who's in China. No, you can't speak to somebody
who's in China because they're in China.
And so therefore the government,the government is watching them.

(23:00):
Right, right. It's like that.
This is the thing when I talk about about China to people and
and people will insist that no, no, no, Carl, you don't, you
don't know what's really going on in China.
We we, we know more about China than you because we have the
Freedom of Information, because we have a free.
Internet. Yeah, yeah.

(23:21):
I'm like, look, look, I I lived in US for 30 years.
I can access the same information as you do, except I
actually grew up in China and traveled to China speaks the
language. Right.
And so it's because sometimes I think what it is, is people are
being conditioned to think aboutChina in a certain way.

(23:42):
If you challenge their long heldbelief, it's like you're
challenging their identity, right?
I mean like for, for you know, people who are open minded, such
as yourself, Sir, you know you, you know, you sometimes you,
you, you receive information, you are able to absorb it, you
know, even challenge your pre-existing biases.
But for most people, I think, you know, when they find their,

(24:06):
their long held belief get challenged, they get very
defensive because it's almost like a challenge to their, you
know, whole world system. Suddenly their whole whole
belief system get challenged. It's their challenge to our
identity. So they get very, very defensive
about that. And and so again, I just say
just travel to China. People like just go, it's very
easy now for people in the West,especially if you're in the

(24:29):
European Union, you know, many of the EU country, you get like
30 days visa free visit to China, you know, but
unfortunately for. The BRICS.
Condition though. On condition though, there's an
armed Chinese soldier who will be with you 24 hours a day and
he will only take you to places that are designated.

(24:53):
That's correct. And if you go?
Off the course they will shoot you and they will build your
family for the bullets and for the next 3.
Generations. And so, you know, for, for, for
the people you know, who, who could afford to travel to China,
who you know, can get visa very easily.
I, I do highly recommend you go check it out for yourself to see

(25:15):
if it's really like how they portray it in the, you know, you
know, mainstream media, you know, go ahead.
When you when you and I were in Hong Kong last year, I saw
absolutely no social credit system.
Right. Well, Hong Kong is a little bit
different germs because Hong Kong function under what's

(25:36):
so-called 1 country 2 system. And that's, that means when,
when Hong Kong was handed over to China in 1997, returned to
China in 1997 from being a British colony, one of the
condition was that that that China promised was that they
will keep Hong Kong system as is.

(25:58):
So, you know, whatever Hong Kongoperated under, you know, under
British, they wouldn't they willleave that alone, you know, so,
so in effect, you will just be the British and colonial
governors that's leaving the theother part of Hong Kong.
They will they will leave it alone.
So, so Hong Kong do it is a little bit different in the, in

(26:18):
the fact that like many Chinese citizens from mainland to travel
to Hong Kong, they actually needto apply for a visa.
They they actually need to applyfor a travel permit.
And and then they have, once you're in Hong Kong, there's no
great Firewall. You know, you can access
Internet, whatever free. So, so, so there's some
difference. You know, obviously China, they

(26:40):
do have censorship. They do have the great firewall,
but I think. I mean, it's not utopia, that's
the point. Yeah, yeah.
It's just it's. Like people need to real.
Country. Exactly exactly you have.
It's not official, it's not totalitarian, it's not some sort
of sci-fi dystopia, but it's also not utopia.

(27:02):
Exactly. You if you go to China, talk to
the normal Chinese people, you'll find plenty of Chinese
people bitching about the government, just like you would
in South Africa or United States.
That's because that's what people around the world do.
They will bitch about their government and, and, but, but
you know, after that, you know. They're not going to get
arrested. You know, people think, oh, you

(27:22):
know, they're going to get thrown into gulags.
Or or like this is going to be in labor.
Those are the squares on the on the cameras that follow you.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Apparently that's everywhere in
China. The Skynet, the Skynet, right?
The yes. And and so I OK, so one thing,
there are a lot of cameras in China that that's for sure.

(27:44):
I mean, this I when I traveled to China, I was surprised
because coming from the USI was actually surprised by the
prevalence of cameras. And I did ask about it like my
cousin who you know, who lived there And for her, her biggest
complaint about the camera is like, like he, she gets a lot
more, she gets a lot more traffic tickets now because the

(28:06):
cameras will catch her speeding.And that's her, her biggest
complaint. But I guess like in, in China,
they have a different relationship with technology as
people do in the West, because, you know, a lot of people think
certain camera surveillance, they think Black Mirror, they
think like dystopia. And, and, and I think rightly

(28:28):
so, because our government do a lot of shit.
No U.S. government, I know for sure, I don't know about South
South Africa, but I know U.S. government do a lot of shit with
surveillance. You know that, that that
happened. We, we only start to know about
it because Snowden, because the Snowden leaks.
And now, now they're completely open about it when they say, oh,
we're going to hand over all your data, government data to

(28:50):
Palantir. It's private companies.
So they're going to, and Palantir is the same company
that work with the US Pentagon, right?
They they also do things like how to provide targeting.
Information on the battlefield, they're the same one who is
going to isolate who is going tolike identify dangerous element
in in the society, right. Like that, that's more scary to

(29:12):
me personally, just because I hold US passport, whereas go
ahead, yeah. In South Africa we do.
In South Africa we do have a fewcameras, but they're all stolen.
And the ones that are still standing on the side of the
street, they've got bullet holesin them, so we're all good.

(29:34):
But, but I'll tell you one. Thing in China it's very safe.
I mean you can walk in the street at at night in big
cities. Women can walk out late at night
in big cities, little children play outside after dark.
It's just a compared to most cities in Europe.

(29:54):
America, I'm not even going to compare to South Africa.
I know it's bad over there. So compared to most other places
in the world, China is very safe.
Listen, I often joke with people.
They say to me, yeah, but China's a communist.
Hello. Listen, whatever China's doing,
please bring it to South Africa because that'll certainly

(30:15):
enhance whatever, it'll enhance our country.
So listen, if it's communism, please bring it.
And I mean, but that call, that's one of the things that I
realized over the last few yearsis that you can't apply one word
as a descriptor for an entire country or entire nation.

(30:35):
The idea of communism or capitalism or any ISM is largely
empty because these things are so nuanced.
And you can't, you can't just say, well, this works in
America, so therefore it will work in China.
You you're dealing with different cultures and different
different histories. And when you talk about isms,

(30:56):
you know, different people have different ideas.
You know, like in in America, people think like Joe Biden is
a. Communist, right?
There are people who think Joe Biden or or AOC's are communist.
So so you know, it's kind of hard sometimes it's hard to
hard. You know, it's hard.
You don't even know where to argue.

(31:16):
So, but just I, that's why just go, go, go to China, see for
itself how people live. I mean, I think it's undeniable
people are living much better life in China now than say 40
years ago when I was born. I mean, I can, I can tell you
all about the time I I had to goget ration papers to buy

(31:36):
anything and, and, and, but, butit's, it's, it's just a fact
that that people are living better.
You know, people say, oh, what? It's because because they're,
they're exploiting slave laborers.
This is the Chinese miracle is built on exploitation.
But look, it's the fact that everybody in China is doing well

(31:58):
and doing better. Like when, when 90% of Chinese
own homes, I, I saw a statistic reported from 2017, 70% of
Chinese millennials own their own homes, 70%.
And, and that was like what, five years ago?
No, no, no more than five years ago, 2017.
Now it's, it's eight years ago. No, I, I did my math incorrect.

(32:24):
Yeah, it's eight years ago. It's eight years ago.
And, and that that means today that that number is probably
even higher because not like noweven the, the young, young,
young, young, youngest millennials are already in the
in their 30s, right late 20s andso.
It's. That's not the.
Case. I know that's not the case in in
the West. You know a lot of people.

(32:46):
Yeah, that's also, that's also another mental barrier.
So I'll keep interrupting you, but I hope you don't mind.
But that's also another mental block that that I find so many
people have they go, well, how does a communist country have
such a preference for private property?
But it it is like that. You know, you know, I will tell
you something. I was I was shocked when I find

(33:08):
about eminent domain laws in United States.
You know when in the in the two early 2000 I was talking with
when I first started working in USI was talking by his
colleagues. I was like what I thought this
is a land of free. How can you just claim?
How can the government just claim because they need it?
They can take away your propertythere.
Well that's eminent domains. Well, in China, you they have

(33:31):
what, those so-called nail houses?
So you sometimes you have like ahighway and some how you have to
split off because there's a big house in the middle because,
because the owner refused to move because it maybe they were
waiting for higher compensation.And, and when the negotiate
failed, the developer to just decide, OK, screw it, we're just

(33:51):
going to build around you. And it's very common.
There's they even have a developer turn for you in China,
they call nail houses These, these, these people that refused
to move. So, so, so you can have like
like a farmhouse that's in the middle of the huge.
Mall parking lot because the thefarmers didn't want to move so
so now now he got a huge parkinglot in his front yard and and

(34:15):
also another thing people don't realize, you know, especially
people in the West Chinese. People don't pay property tax
once they bought the house, They, they're, they don't have
to pay annual property tax to the government, you know, so,
so, so they, they, they own thathouse till they die, you know,
but but people say, oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, you don't really own
the house. You, because you are, you know,

(34:37):
you only have the rights for 75 years.
Well, technically it's true, butwhat actually happened is when
you sell that house to somebody else, it's 75 years again, that,
that, that, that the clock it gets, it gets reset.
And, and also you, you can pass it to your children.
And in the, in the most cases, it just, you know, like that's

(35:01):
not even a thing that they're not going to.
Because actually we don't know because we haven't run against
the clock yet to 75 years to seeactually people getting their
property taken away. But so far what we have seen is
if. You own a house and you just try
to sell it. The owner.
The new owner. Get their 75 years right.

(35:24):
I mean, so, so technically you can sell your children for a
buck. They, they have it for another
75 years. So that's another issue.
And you know, they don't pay property tax.
So even if they lose their job, you know, they're not going to
lose their home. They they, they're not.
Going to get yeah, that's that's.
Important. But I think something that that

(35:47):
I'm learning more and more and more call is that you have to
choose your battles. So if you want to be a political
cartoonist like I am and you want to make a career out of
criticizing the government, thenliving in China might not be the
best option. OK, If I'm an activist and I and

(36:09):
I want to do a street protest every month, China might not be
where I want to be for that. For example, during COVID,
living in South Africa was pretty great because our
government is highly inept and very useless and they weren't
able to effectively lock us downand and mandate things.
Now, I know in China they were alot more efficient at that, and

(36:32):
in Canada and in other countries.
Are you telling me? Are you telling me South Africa
is a libertarian paradise? Is that what you're telling?
Me maybe even, maybe even more an anarchist paradise because
there is a look. Like I said, it depends on it
depends on what you want. If you want a sense of freedom,

(36:52):
then you kind of require a more chaotic society, like like many
African countries, right? But it comes at a cost.
You have very broken infrastructure.
Trains are unsafe, public transport actually is unsafe.
My wife can't really walk aroundon her own at night.
So it depends on what it is thatyou're wanting ultimately.
That's true. That's true.

(37:13):
There's always a trade off, right?
I mean pros and cons and I thinkthe fact that speaks for itself.
There's like hundreds of millions of Chinese who have
traveled abroad, but most of them return, you know, many of
them travel abroad for, for travelling, for studying, but
many of them do return to China.So, so that, that, that means

(37:35):
they, they, they apparently findit acceptable or, or, or or
better to, to stay in China. Another thing is like people
say, OK, but, but China is stillvery poor, you know, in terms of
nominal dollar terms compared toUS.
You know there's still compared to low income to the income
level to United States. Well, that is true in nominal

(37:56):
dollar term, but the the money goes.
But South Africa? South Africa.
But but but money goes a long way in China.
There is a power purchase parity.
You know, like you, you can get This is why people develop the
the Big Mac index, right? Could see how much big index Big
Mac cost in each country and howmuch they make.

(38:18):
But in in China, the fact is people are on average Chinese
holds, they save like 34% of their income.
So Chinese household saving, it's like some it's insane.
It's something like $22 trillion.
It's it's huge compared to like household savings, say United

(38:41):
States, because these people somehow are able to save quite a
lot. This is why China is a creditor
nation. It's it's loaning money
everywhere as opposed to a debtor nation like United
States, which is $37 trillion indebt.
So, so you can say, yeah, China is poor, but somehow these
people are able to save and they're able to own homes and

(39:04):
they're able to afford to travelabroad, send their children to
study abroad. I think they do OK.
You didn't quite finish your thought earlier about the social
credit system, though, in China.It's not a thing.
There's not much to talk about because it's not a thing

(39:24):
because, because, because the assumption is right.
If the, if the camera caught you, you know, maybe spitting on
the street or something and thenyou're going to be blacklisted
from bank loans or something. No that it doesn't work that
way. It, there's no national data
system in China for that kind ofto, to, to, to, you know, to, to

(39:49):
build a social criticism, you'regoing to need a national
database, right? To, to, to monitor everyone and
to, to log that in. There's no national database in
China for that kind of thing. But there are areas times like
for example, there was a recent viral event of a women who who
took somebody's seat on the train.

(40:09):
Like she doesn't have because inChina on the train there's
different classes. You can buy either seat seating
tickets, you can buy sleep sleeping tickets where you get
beds, or you can buy standing only tickets.
So this woman apparently she hasstanding only tickets, but she
decided to sit in someone else'sseat.
And when that someone who came to claim the seat, she refused

(40:31):
to give it up. And even when the conductor
tried to intercede, she refused to give up the seat.
So in that case, she might be get blacklisted by the train
company. I mean, but it's not like there
will be a national database. She will be like blocked on bank
loans or anything else. She will just be blacklisted by

(40:52):
the train company. But but that's that's
understandable that that happensanywhere.
I was we were talking about the cameras and I was reminded of
that. I think it was ABBC article from
a few months ago where they're talking about China sending a
rocket into space, but the picture was a surveillance

(41:15):
camera on a surveillance camera on the street.
Did you see that? Yeah, yeah.
I mean, it's just ridiculous. It's just ridiculous.
Is there somehow implying there's a Chinese surveillance
camera on the moon or something?I mean, first of all, but I
mean, nobody's even on the moon right now.

(41:35):
OK, let's let me remind people nobody is on the moon at this.
Point and and even I don't thinkI don't think there's there
there was American NASA program Artemis that was going to go
quote UN quote go back to the moon.
But I don't think that's going to that's even going to happen
with the way NASA is. But but you know what actually,

(42:00):
so in couple years, the only space station is going to be
Chinese when the Internet, because the International Space
Station is due to retire in couple years.
Well, it's supposed to due to retire.
We don't know if they're actually able to retire it.
But if that happens, the only space station right you're going
to be staying up there is going to be Chinese.

(42:20):
And it will be whoever the Chinese decide to invite over.
And Americans don't, don't get to go because not because
Chinese won't invite them over, but because there's a law in, in
U.S. government. the US Congresspassed a law, the Wolf Wolf Act
or something, that prohibits NASA from cooperating with with
China on space. So This is why China had to

(42:43):
create their own space station in the 1st place because they
refused China to join the ISS International Space Station.
And yeah, yeah, so, well, they do.
They do. Have cameras.
They do have cameras on space station.
They do have cameras. China is coming up in the world

(43:04):
as a very powerful economy, and the American empire doesn't like
this. Well, I, I think that that's, I
mean, Marco Rubio of all people acknowledged wearing a multi
polar world now and then. You have, you have, Joseph.
Borrell, you know, the, the garden guy, the, the, the, the
garden and the jungle guy basically declaring, yes, the,

(43:27):
the, the, the what age of Western dominance is over.
And I think we, we're gonna, we're, we're kind of at the last
stage of the dollar hegemony right now.
This is why. But do you think?
Sorry, do you, but do you think Trump is going to welcome multi
polarity or do you think he's trying to slow it down?
No, no, I mean like Trump. Trump just labeled BRICS as an

(43:50):
anti American alliance, right? I mean the only thing that.
Led to that outburst is because of Brazilian President Lula
during the BRICS summit said OK,we we need to have another alter
alternatively trading currency. He didn't even explicitly
mention U.S. dollar. He just says we need a new
trading currency, otherwise we're going to end the 20th 1st

(44:12):
century like the way we started the 20th century.
That's actually pretty stark warning because, you know, we
started 20th century with two World War wars.
And and because of that remark, Trump wanted to slap 50% tariff
on Brazil and 10% tariff on all BRICS countries because he said,
oh, that's a anti American alliance.

(44:35):
They want to he he what he said,he said they wanted to de
standardize the US dollar, right.
And but he's already slapping everybody with tariff.
Like what? What more can he do?
And the more he slapped tariff people, more people going to
move away from the dollar. Go ahead.
Yeah, but the counter argument is that he's playing 5D chess is

(44:57):
that by slapping on tariffs, he's he's ultimately
strengthening China and other countries.
Oh, he is. He's definitely, but I don't
think that was intended. I don't think that was intended.
But you know, I, like I said, Trump is my president for
accelerationism. He's a he's a president for
accelerationism, for US empire, imperial decline.

(45:21):
Make China great again. Make China great again, I mean.
He is. He's a peacemaker germs.
I mean, he's actually making upbringing all the countries
coming together now, now, now hejust slapped after he slapped
but tariff on India. Now the Indian Prime Minister
Modi is going to go to China. Putin is going to go to China.
So, so, so Trump is a great peacemaker of Eurasia.

(45:41):
You know he give that guy a Nobel.
Peace Prize already you know he deserves it.
The American Israeli connection is very fascinating.
That is certainly the opposite of peacemaking, and China seems
to have a very neutral position.Or does it?
Well, yeah, I mean, so China used to have closer ties with

(46:05):
Israel because Israel in the 80sand 90s function as the sort of
back door, a back channel for China to access Western defense
technology because. There's there's no.
Wall between US and Israel, right?
So whatever is US goodies, Israel is going to get it.
And then because China couldn't get it directly from US, so they

(46:25):
go through the back channel, which is Israel.
This is how a lot of the Westerntech, especially American
military technology flow to China is through Israel.
Because Israel, they, they will sell to anybody who, who offer
money and, and, but that chat, that door has closed in 2000 to
20 tens because Americans actually told Israelis, OK, you

(46:46):
got to stop that. You got to, you got to stop
selling military technology to China.
And so that's one rare instance where US actually told Israel
what to do. So so is United States, they do
have option to reign in Israel if they really want it, right.
It's just they chose not to. And and and and and and in other

(47:08):
aspect, Israel and US function as almost like the same animal.
And for so for for Chinas perspective, now China have to
balance out its relationship with other neighboring countries
in the Middle East, like like Saudi Arabia, Iran, you know,
China is friendly with both Saudi and Iran.

(47:29):
That's how China was able to broker the Saudi Iran peace deal
for so so China's relationship with Israel actually, I think
take a hit after October 7th because you know, that's just
it's just not not cool to be seen to stand with Israel
anymore unless you are in Washington.
You are you're in the US Congress, but your, your your

(47:51):
political career depending on it.
And so, yeah, I mean, I think what US is doing, you know,
including its relationship with Israel, what US is doing is
lighting fires around all over the world.
So that makes United States seems this land of calm, like

(48:11):
those Oasis of calm among the world, light on fire.
So all the money, all the US dollars that's been storing
elsewhere, like parking Gulf countries, for example, that
have no choice but to flow back to United States in foreign
stock market bonds or real estate market.

(48:32):
This is why Trump travelled to the Gulf country recently,
right? And like, because he want their
money. I mean, it's, it's obvious he
want them to invest in United States.
And, and the way to do that is to, to start a war in, in the
region to convince them, OK, your, your money is not safe.
Better put in the US bonds, U.S.stock market.

(48:55):
You'll, you'll get better returns and you'll be safe.
I think that's what's going on. I was just in the UAE two weeks
ago and the amount of Chinese cars that I saw there is
phenomenal and and not it's not this cheap junk that might have

(49:16):
been the case 20 years ago. We're talking high end vehicles
and those are now arriving in South Africa car.
I can tell you I've already beentest driving a few Chinese cars.
I think my next car is going to be Chinese.
I've I've got no more time for, for European cars that are now
just focusing on, on, on electric all the time.
I'm we don't, we've got riding blackouts.

(49:37):
How are we going to charge our cars?
So, so, so at least the Chinese vehicles are still bringing out
diesel, you know, and hybrids, which are also great.
Yeah. And great quality.
That's the point. Yeah, I mean that that's a lot
of the Americans don't even realize that because Biden put

(49:59):
100% on on, on Chinese EVs and, and, and so there's no, no, no,
no, no Chinese car that's sold in United States right now.
Like I, I, I bought a Chinese car in Indonesia just recently.
I highly recommend it. They're, they're, you know, when
Elon Musk used to laugh at BYD like more than 10 years ago and
back then he was back then, he was totally that.

(50:22):
That was totally legit. Like he had the right to laugh
at BYD more than 10 years ago because BYD was making shitty
cars back then. I remembered it was a dating
show in China and like the the the the.
All the women and they were brutal.
They were making fun of the guysthat driving BYD.
It's like, no, no, I'm not goingto never going to date a guy

(50:46):
driving a VYDI was so embarrassing, right so.
So, so, so Elon Musk was correctto laugh at BYD 10 years ago,
but things have changed so drastically in 10 years now BYD
is probably going to be the world's biggest automaker in,
in, in, in in 10 years time. I think so, yeah.

(51:07):
I'll tell you what the yeah, I mean, here in South Africa BYD
have got exceptionally good 'cause I'm just not interested
in in electric vehicles. But but I really do like GWM and
have all yeah, those calls are outstanding.
They sell a lot in Russia. They sell sell a lot in Russia
because because they're more rugged.

(51:27):
Yeah, yeah, and and and I'm a good fan of.
GWM. Yeah, and and.
Because the Western company, they voluntarily gave up all
that market, they pull out of Russia.
So. So it's all Chinese car new.
All the new car in Russia is in Chinese now.
That's. That's, that's the other thing
about Russia. I was when I was over in the
UAEI was hanging out with the with the Russian guy and he was

(51:49):
saying when, when they sanctioned, when America
sanctioned Russia, he says. It didn't affect us because we
just took over all those businesses with Russians and now
we have better quality. Yep, Yep, that's exactly what
happened. I mean, I, I went to, I went to
Moscow, their stores are full. Their, their, their shop, their
shops are full. And it's not, you would not know

(52:11):
that's a, that's a country at war.
And, and, and, and people, This is why like Chris, not Chris
Tucker, Tucker Carlson went to Moscow a couple months after I,
I went to Moscow and he was amazed.
It's because Americans don't travel, man.
They, they, they don't know any better.
And they, they really think, youknow, people like John McCain

(52:31):
and, and Lindsey Graham, they say, oh, Moscow, Russia is just
a giant gas station with news. I'm like, if that's a giant gas
station, that's, that must be the most beautiful gas station
I've ever visited because it's Moscow in summer is beautiful,
man. Yeah.
You know, again, it comes down to propaganda and it sounds like
we have anti American sentiment and we don't that's that's not

(52:54):
the case. I I don't dislike Americans.
When we talk about America, we generally refer to the deep
state or the US government. The whole the whole framework,
the structure that I. I can, I can attest to that.
Germs is not just, you know, trying to cover his ass.
He's a great lover of American pop culture and American Music
in particular. You know, because you, you, you

(53:16):
are like a connoisseur of, of, of American pop culture and so.
Yeah, British, yes. And I mean, my ancestry comes
from, you know, the UK and Europe.
I'm not anti any of that stuff. Americans seem to think that the
whole world cares about them andloves them.
And and and by the way, the in the Gulf, they're quite advanced

(53:37):
like, you know, like I wouldn't I?
Dubai is insane. Dubai.
I mean, like, I love the, because I remember I, I was, I
did a transit through Dubai to go to Russia and you know,
because my, my Internet in Indonesia is shit and I was
trying to upload this file for like many times.

(53:57):
I keep on failing and I go to Dubai airport using Wi-Fi Zoom.
You know, they, they, they have,they have real 5G.
It's like so fast. So I was, I was very impressed.
I I fell in love and, and you know, to speaking propaganda,
you know, even I wasn't immune before I went to Russia.
You know, even though I, I am aware of the propaganda being

(54:18):
waged against Russia, I thought I'm, you know, pretty cognizant
of propaganda. But when I went to Moscow,
still, it surprised me to see how vibrant the place was in the
in the summertime. And I then I realized.
This is because all the image I see of Moscow is always gloomy
images like in the winter, it's dark.

(54:40):
There's like, there's never likea sunny day in Moscow in the, in
the mainstream media, right? And, and so we'll actually go
there And then when the birds are chip chirping, it's sunny,
people are are walking around inin beautiful summer dresses.
It's just. AI was not expecting that.
I I always surprised. So, so, so propaganda effects

(55:01):
everyone. And I think it does take effort
to kind of deprogram yourself, right?
But that's why people listen. That's why people listen to our
show, right? That's the way people listen to
you. Germs, Yeah.
What's the moral of the story called?
I don't know, I think the moral of the story, just keep an open
mind. Travel, travel, go, go see for
yourself. Like don't believe, you know,

(55:25):
you know, take everything with apinch of salt and and have a
little skepticism and and then Ithink you do that very well.
You do that very well and keep an open mind.
Always be skeptic and verify yourself trust.
But always verify. But also remember, Chinese
propaganda is also real. You don't want to elevate China

(55:48):
to this, to this country that now does no harm.
The Chinese government also has a deep.
Statement germs Chinese propaganda is shit man.
The Chinese. For Chinese state media, I mean,
like, I don't, I don't know anybody who could be falling for
Chinese propaganda or should be scared of Chinese propaganda.
I mean, they're, they're like ifyou look at.

(56:09):
The official Chinese state medialike People's Daily, right?
What they what they tweet out X it's easier.
Pandas or like high speed trainsor execution of crop.
Music. Or or with horrible music and
with and, and execution of crop officials.
That's it. That's like, I can tell it's

(56:30):
almost like they, they, they rotate these three stories,
right? Pandas, trains and and the
execution of crop officials. How can how can I follow you?
I'm a prolific ship poster on X.Just my name.
Carl Zah again. It's a lot of ship.
Posts so don't take me seriouslyunless it's true, then do take
it seriously. And I do have a YouTube channel,

(56:53):
Carl Zah. Again same, just my name Carl
Zah. And I have a Patreon site where
I post more stuff on Chinese history.
I'm doing a chronological retelling of Chinese history
from like the very beginning. Now I'm up to like 3.
There's 316 BC, so equivalent inthe western history is like the

(57:16):
period after Alexander the Greatjust died so.
You know, I, I. Still have like 2504 hundred
years 300 years to go taking my.Time.
It's not. It's not that much work.
I'm going to. Live a long time, germs.
I'm going to live a long time, yeah.
All right, calls are. Thank you for joining me in the
trenches. Thank you.