COVID-19 Was a Military Psyop

COVID wasn’t chaos—it was control. Debbie Lerman exposes the psyop, the planners, and the real agenda.Jerm and Debbie Lerman discuss the COVID-19 ‘pandemic’, focusing on the military and intelligence roles in public health, and Deborah Birx's influence. Lerman shares her shift from scepticism to recognising a global public-private partnership that emerged during the crisis. They stress examining beyond obvious narratives to understand control mechanisms, questioning political power and accountability. The conversation covers the illusion of presidential authority, deep state control, and systemic barriers to change.
The lab leak theory is a distraction,
China is a scapegoat.
The COVID era was an elite-orchestrated event.
Lerman advocates disconnecting from the system to address societal issues' root causes. Her book, 'The Deep State Goes Viral,' critiques the power structures behind the pandemic.https://www.ukcolumn.org/video/covid-19-was-a-military-psyop

Episode Transcript

(00:38):
Debbie Lerman, thank you for joining me in the trenches
again. Thank you so much for having me
again. So I think about this quite
often when I chat to you, but I have to bring it up since I have
a different audience now. So you and I chatted, I think
for the first time, Debbie, I was a 2022.
And I remember when I emailed you and and you replied and you

(01:02):
said I'll come on to your show. But there's a whole bunch of
stuff I just want to put out there.
You know, I don't agree with youon this.
And I'm I'm, I'm, you know, I don't want to talk about that.
And you are very apprehensive. Now here we are talking many
times since then. What?
What happened? So thanks I I really appreciated

(01:26):
it. Actually, you were the first
person who approached me to interview me.
I think it was when I wrote about Deborah Birx, which was a
long, long time ago. It was my first step towards
understanding what happened withCOVID.
I mean, I had no idea what was going on.
All I was doing was following the facts and the clues that

(01:47):
were, that were out there that nobody else was looking at.
And you were the first one to notice that.
And then I but at the time I wasstill, I still considered myself
a sort of liberal, you know, I still use the terms liberal and
conservative as if they were like kind of meaningful or
Democrat or Republican. They.

(02:08):
Don't mean anything. They really don't mean anything,
which I now understand, but at the time I was also even more
concerned about conspiracy theories, believe it or not,
because now I'm the biggest conspiracy.
Evan Forbid. Evan Forbid.
So I was very concerned, OK, that the COVID conspiracy, which
is what I was investigating, which I knew to be true, or at

(02:30):
least at the time I started to believe or understand that there
were underlying currents that were happening that people
didn't know about. So that's called conspiracy.
We call it conspiracy facts in the conspiracy community.
So the conspiracy facts that I knew were one thing, but the
conspiracy theories about, you know, 911 or about the moon

(02:51):
landing or about not, not JFK somuch, but certain conspiracy
theories just seem so outlandishthat I didn't want my conspiracy
facts as I viewed them to be confused with your conspiracy
theories. So I apologise for questioning

(03:12):
and for not for being hesitant to associate my conspiracies
with your conspiracies. Now I think we can be very happy
with all of our conspiracy. It's also silly though, if you
think about it, because at the end of the day, all we're doing
is just thinking about events. Yeah, that have happened and
just wondering about the counteror the alternative angle, that's

(03:35):
all. That's all.
Some of them we might believe for sure.
But as as my friend Nick Hudson said, if there is a big event,
you can be rest assured that it's most likely fabricated and
there are a lot of good reasons for that.
It's not because some, you know,the five guys are sitting on
table in a dark room going, OK, well, this is how this is how

(03:58):
we're going to control the event.
It's all to do with covering one's tracks and, and not
wanting to be held accountable and all sorts of things.
And it's also quite absurd, if you think about it, that when
people call you a conspiracy theorist as if it's a bad thing
because all you're doing is you're theorising on on
something that's happened. Like, for example, imagine,

(04:19):
let's go back a couple thousand years.
Imagine someone sitting with Judy Caesar saying, listen, we
have a we have a suspicion that,that there's a group of people
who want to kill you. And he's like, you're just
conspiracy theorists, you know? That's a good.
That's good. Yeah, people do conspire,
Debbie. Yeah.
Yeah, they do. Obviously, if you have power and

(04:40):
you want to keep that power, youconspire with other people who
have power in order to consolidate it and in order to
keep it, and you conspire against the people who might try
to undermine or expose or usurp your power.
Of course you do. That goes without saying.
So that's a. That's a good analogy.
So going back to our 2022 conversation, which for me was

(05:04):
one of the most important COVID based conversations I think I've
ever had. Because like you and so many
others, I was trying to figure out what was going on.
Because back in March 2020, it was just coincidental that half
the world decided to lock down their countries for the first
time in recorded history and started started using the same

(05:28):
language. I had never before heard the
term social distancing. And suddenly these stickers
appeared on the ground saying stand 2 metres away from
somebody and everybody around the world what you know, that
we're sharing photographs of thesame thing.
So what was it just a pure coincidence?
No, obviously it wasn't there. There was obviously something

(05:49):
going on. And so that that led me down the
road to eventually finding finding your work and realising
that this wasn't just a pharmaceutical event.
This was a lot deeper than that,wasn't it?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thanks.
That's that's, that's a good introduction.
Yes, it was the same with me. Well, first I realised that

(06:09):
every I knew the virus wasn't dangerous because I had checked
in January and February. I had looked at the statistics,
I had looked at the, you know, who was dying and who wasn't.
Nobody was dying. It wasn't dangerous.
It was like all the other outbreaks of like MERS and SARS
and whatever. You know, you get little
outbreaks, you treat them and you move on.
And that's what had always been done.
And I assumed that that's what was going to be done.

(06:31):
So I, I really wasn't worried. And then when they started
locking down the whole world anddoing all of that, and everybody
was completely terrified and using masks that that we had
known before March 2020. Everybody in the medical world
knows that masks don't work against airborne fire.
Everybody knows it, or if they knew it now, they don't know it
anymore. But the propaganda was so

(06:52):
strong, I actually kind of had anervous breakdown because
everybody I knew who I thought was really smart and educated
was falling for this like crazy garbage, you know?
And that's what really started me trying to figure out what was
going on. And then I realised as I was
investigating it that it wasn't just about the pharmaceutical or
the public health corruption, which are part of it, but it was

(07:15):
a giant network, which I call Global Public Private
Partnership. That's not, I didn't invent
that. Other people have talked about
that, but it's the an easier wayto say it is a global crime
cartel. That's the new way that I've
decided to talk about it becauseit's easier to say.
But it's a global conglomerationof public and private entities

(07:35):
that are all like it, just like a big monster that needs to be
fed. And it is the military and
intelligence agencies. It is the military industrial
complex, which includes the military and the intelligence
agencies. That includes Wall Street.
It includes Silicon Valley. So those are all of the
components of the military industrial complex.
And then it also includes all ofthe Ng OS.

(07:58):
It includes the academic institutions, the journals, the
banking, the international banking system.
It's a giant, giant cartel. So the important thing that I
realised during COVID is that there's a global system of
control that's happening in the world.
It sounds so weird and so conspiratorial.
It's hard to wrap one's mind around it.

(08:18):
And I totally get it. And I have been working hard and
I'm still working to find the best ways to explain that
because people want to say it's Fauci, people want to say it,
it's Bill Gates, people want to say it's Pfizer, people want to
say. And all of those people and
entities are components of the giant global cartel.

(08:40):
But if you go, they are in it, they're in it, they're in the
cartel. And they're all striving for
that cartel to have more power and more influence.
And they want in order to do that, they need to censor US,
propagandise us, surveil us and control us.
That's what they need to do. And So what COVID revealed was

(09:01):
the systems that they were usingto do that.
So the digital systems, the propaganda and censorship
industrial complex, which is a global, as you said, world
encompassing. How did everybody come up with
the same words at the same time?How did everybody come up with
the same narrative at the same time?
Obviously there was coordination.
That's not a conspiracy. I mean, that's, that's a fact.

(09:23):
So the important thing to realise now is that this system
is rolling forward. It's rolling forward to get more
control. So no matter what happens on a
local political level, you mightchange a few things on the
surface level that you think areimportant, and that's fine.
But you are not addressing the rolling constant and, you know,

(09:45):
inexorable. We haven't stopped it.
It hasn't slowed down. In fact, it uses each
administration. I'm just going to talk about the
United States because that's where I am.
But it uses each voting cycle and each administration to
convince half the population that now you don't have to worry
about the cartel. Now the cartel isn't really
doing anything. Now we're going to save you and

(10:05):
we're going to make everything fine.
And the cartel is just moving onand doing its thing.
So what I try to do is point outthat no matter who's in charge,
even if you feel more politically affiliated with one
side or the other, they're actually using that in order to
distract you from what's happening on a global level.
So it's a uni party? It's a uni party, yeah.

(10:29):
Unpack your research a little bit if you don't mind.
OK, so as we said before, we we got on the show, it's all in my
book, which is called the Deep State goes viral.
And I am going around talking topeople like you who have been on

(10:50):
the same page as me for as longer than anybody to talk
about where you could I put all my research in this book in
order to show can I? Just stop you there.
Your title for your book is really good.
It's such a clever play on words.
Thank you. Thank you.

(11:11):
I came up with it after a lot ofexperiment, you know, a lot of
thinking and my new title for myhopefully if this works, if I
can get the word out. And people really so far there's
been really positive response, people, even people who didn't
know during COVID. I have to tell you which I'm
very encouraged by this. My first two chapters talk about

(11:35):
what I just told you about the fact that every it's all global.
It's a uniparty. It's I don't say uniparty, but
it's a global public private partnership.
That's who ran COVID. And I explain all of that.
And even people who politically were not aligned with those of
us who were against COVID because they made it really
political. So even lefties, even people who

(11:55):
were Covidien's, even people whowere in the COVID cult can read
it and say, oh, that makes sensebecause they remember what one
person said to me, remember, I remember Iraq, Remember in Iraq
when they lied to us, they lied to everybody and we all bought
it. And then we realised that they

(12:16):
were lying to us. And I said, yeah, that's exactly
what it is. They all lied to us and now we
realise what it is. It's a good analogy.
So the research that I did in order to reach that conclusion
is the other chapters of the book.
And So what I the research that I did in order to reach the

(12:37):
conclusions that I did started with Deborah Birx.
As you know, I was just researching.
I just read the book that she wrote called Silent Invasion,
and it was supposed to be an expose of what was happening in
the Trump administration during the first months of COVID.
And of course, a lot of blame was being put on Trump.

(12:57):
And with ACDC, they weren't acting enough.
They weren't acting fast enough,They weren't doing enough.
But I realised very soon into the book that she was just, it
was just a bunch of lies and propaganda.
And I hadn't read any non fiction really, because I'm a,
an English major and I read fiction.
And then I realised that this was fiction.
So when I realised that this wasfiction, I, I, I fell on the

(13:19):
floor. I, I, my jaw, I, I didn't know
that this was happening in the world, that like people were
writing books that were supposedto be factual and they were
supposed to be presenting somebody's view of something.
And actually, you could tell that they were lying.
So I wrote a bunch of articles about how she was lying about
how she got the job, about the that it was public health,

(13:40):
because nothing that they did was public health, that it was
Fauci who was in charge because it wasn't.
It was her who was in charge andshe was she was brought in by
the National Security Council. The National Security Council is
the body that advises the president on wars and terrorism,
at least it used to be. They changed the definition in
2022 to include all kinds of natural climate and pandemics

(14:05):
and whatever. So, so the COVID actually made
them change the definition. But in 2020, it was supposed to
be the body that advised the president on war and terrorism.
So what does war and terrorism have to do with a naturally
occurring pandemic? 1 asks oneself.
And that's what I asked myself. And so then I went and I found
the documents that showed that the National Security Council

(14:26):
was actually in charge of the COVID policy in the United
States and that that the Health and Human Services, which is the
public health agency, was not incharge.
FEMA and the Department of Homeland Security were in
charge. So all of the, the entire
response was controlled by the national security agencies.

(14:47):
None of it and, and communications were controlled
by the National Security Council.
And then I found out that that happened in every other country
as well. Yes.
So just stop right there. Stop right there.
So let's just let's just illustrate this.
So a virus supposedly spreads from China, which which

(15:10):
obviously on the on the face of it is also ridiculous because
it's always China, isn't it? But OK, so virus supposedly
spreads from China around the world.
This is a biological event. So why is the military taking
control of the White House? Right.
Why? Why is the military and the

(15:31):
intelligence agencies, the National Security Council and
the Department of Homeland Security, why are they taking
charge? Why did that happen in England?
Why did that happen in Canada? Why did that happen in Holland?
Why did that happen in South Africa?
Why did that happen in Italy, inFrance and Germany and
everywhere that's a NATO country.
Why was NATO involved? Why was NATO?

(15:51):
Involved in a biological event. In a biological event, and I
have to add, because I haven't been emphasising this enough,
not just in a biological event, in a biological event, that by
the end of 2020, if you didn't know at the beginning of 2020
that this virus was only dangerous, if at all, let's

(16:11):
assume it was dangerous to someone, it would be dangerous
to old people with comorbidities, meaning lots of
other conditions that they were probably going to die from
anyway. So.
Basically nothing to worry about.
So basically we knew that at thebeginning.
If you didn't know that at the beginning, you definitely knew
that by the end of 2020. No scientist, nobody by the end

(16:32):
of 2020 could say that this virus was dangerous to children,
that this virus was dangerous to.
So NATO and the military in manycountries got, they were
involved from the beginning, buttheir huge, huge involvement
came at the end of 2020 and the beginning of 2021 with the
rollout of the countermeasures, because the vaccines were

(16:52):
countermeasures, they were military countermeasures.
And so that is even more obviously suspicious and
obviously has nothing to do withpublic health, because by that
point, if it had been a normal naturally occurring and and
public health managed pandemic, by the end of 2020, it would be

(17:16):
over. Nobody would be talking about
it. There would be no vaccines.
And that happened before. It happened previously when
there were other outbreaks, theystarted making vaccines and they
started doing all those things, but it wasn't dangerous to most
people. They can, it was contained, it
was treated and the vaccines hadto be thrown away.
And so it's really, really suspicious.
Like, even if you thought at thebeginning of 2020 that was

(17:38):
dangerous, we need NATO's organising capacity or we need
the military's, you know, a logistics capacity to help us.
By the end of 2020, we knew thatto be false because the
hospitals were empty. Nobody was getting it, you know,
So it's very, very clear that they were acting for some other
reason other than public health.So just just to appease the

(18:05):
growing number of people who do not believe there's a pandemic.
And I find myself sympathising with that position.
Either way, it doesn't matter because there was nothing to
worry about, is the point, right?
Right. So I always, yeah, I'm going to
address that. Thanks, Jeremy.
I mean, that's really important.So the whole point of my book
and my research and everything that the message that I'm trying

(18:26):
to get across is it doesn't matter what the virus was, it
could have been real, it could have been fake.
It could have been from a lab, it could have been from a
raccoon dog. It could have.
It was a. Military operation, whatever it
was, the virus didn't kill the world.
The response killed the world. So the lockdown until vaccine

(18:50):
response, which is a military response, it is not a public
health response, killed the world.
It killed millions of people whowere injured and killed from the
vaccines. It also killed people in
hospitals. It killed people who were
isolated. It deprived, you know what it
did. It deprived children of their,
you know, ability to develop normally and of socialising and,

(19:14):
and it increased every kind of disease and depression that you
could possibly imagine. But that means what?
That means if we say the virus didn't kill the world, it
doesn't matter whether there wasor wasn't a virus because the
response would have been the same.
OK, There would have been the same.
So we have to look for the origins of the response.

(19:38):
We can't look for the origins ofthe we can we can argue all day
long, do viruses exist? Do they not exist?
We can argue about did it come from a lab or did it not?
Was it Fauci's lab? Was it Barrack's lab?
Was the lab in China with? Doesn't matter.
Yeah, it doesn't matter. And, and I think that's also
very important because, because the important part here is that

(19:59):
there was this, there was a collusion of military and
intelligence and, and, and, and a multitude of other groups as
you've pointed out. But I just quickly want to
horseshoe to Deborah Birx because a lot of people who I
speak to just don't know who sheis.
Who? Who is she?

(20:19):
So I'm going to say it's OK to not know who she is because
she's just a little, a little tiny cog in the machine, but
she's the cog that I, that was my end to understanding.
So she was the coordinator the for the United States government
of the COVID response. She was the United States

(20:40):
COVID-19 response coordinator. That means that she was in
charge of pretty much everythingthat had to do with responding
to this outbreak pandemic. She had more power than Trump,
so she wasn't so the task force,which she was the coordinator
for. If you look at the

(21:02):
organisational chart in the documents that I uncovered,
which are the pandemic action plan adapted, Pandemic crisis
action plan adapted, you can seein the chart that the task force
sits above all the other agencies and the tab.
And the policy arm of the task force is the National Security

(21:22):
Council. So the National Security Council
is determining the policy. Now we have the national
security advisor to President Trump on record saying that he
brought Deborah Birx over. We also know that she came from
USAIDUSAID, as the Trump administration has revealed.
Is CIA cut out now? I knew that because I did my

(21:44):
research and it is not, it's, it's not a secret that they're
ACIA cut out, like anybody who'sdone research in this area knows
that they are. But now that it's been exposed,
we can all understand that Deborah Brooks came from ACIA
organisation, that she was working on AIDS in Africa.

(22:06):
Now there is about 20% of USAID and every diplomatic and public
health organisation does some good work, even The Who.
Unfortunately, when we say let'sget rid of The Who and let's get
rid of the USAID, which I completely understand and I'm in
favour of in theory, we also have to look at the good work
that they do and try to find another way to do that good work

(22:28):
without involving, you know, spies and military.
Because what happens is public health is a really good way to
get your claws into a country. So you go in Africa and you go
in villages and you, you know, you kind of infiltrate the power
structure there. And so Bill Gates can go in
there and say, if you don't do what I say and you don't give
the vaccines that I am telling you, you need to give, I'm not

(22:50):
going to give millions of dollars to your village and to
your City Council and to your politicians.
So it's very insidious. Public health is a very good way
to get in. And so Deborah Brooks was part
of that system. And she was the one who went out
and told everybody, you know, constantly about the case

(23:11):
numbers. Their cases are going up.
The cases are going up. Now, cases is not a metric for
anything in public health. The metric for in public health
is deaths and serious illness. If there's no deaths and serious
illness, then there's no outbreak.
There's no disease, and cases were measured by PCR.
And PCR test, you know, has a lot of false positives.
We don't even have to go into that.

(23:32):
The PCR is largely not supposed to even be used for anything
like this. So she was out there and her
main message was cases are goingup, cases are going up.
And they really, really had to ramp that up at the end of 2020
because by the end of 2020, everybody knew that nobody was
dying and nobody was getting sick.
So Deborah Birx had to go out there and all the other people

(23:54):
in the cartel had to go out there and say cases, cases,
cases, cases. As I always say, if every single
person in the world, 8 billion people, positive cases and not a
single person got sick or died, then you don't have any reason
to be afraid. So the number of cases was a
meaningless metric. And they kept running it on the
bottom of their news. I, you know, reports and they

(24:18):
kept reporting on the number of cases.
I mean, it made me really crazy when they we talked about cases
because that was such a ridiculous non metric.
And then I would talk to public health officials and doctors who
knew that. They knew that I would say, wait
a minute, but everybody could have a positive test result and
it could have that has no impactor meaning on anything.
But they were already brainwashed so.

(24:41):
And if I'm correct, you told me that Deborah Birx was brought in
by Matt Pottinger. Who?
Who was all? Was it not?
She I did, I told you that she said in her book that she was
brought in by Matt Ponger. That was the lie.
So the lie in her book. OK, so this is how I knew she

(25:01):
was lying because she started saying weird things about Matt
Pontinger. Matt Pontinger is the CIA guy in
China and he was the the assistant, I forget that's
deputy national security advisorfor Asia at the time.
And so he was advising against China.

(25:21):
It's China, China, China. Blame China.
That's one of the ways they distract from the cartel.
So China's part of the cartel, but they're not the ones who are
responsible for everything. And they so he was and he was
saying we have to stop travel, ban travel from China and all
kinds of ridiculous things. Even in all the tabletop
exercises that they used to do about pandemics, it was always

(25:43):
understood that that blocking travel is a completely useless
measure because because the germis already spread in their
theory, right? In the theory of how the
pandemic works, the germ has already spread out in the
population. So it's blocking transportation
has no impact, and it can only hurt because it can only hurt
the economy. And when you hurt the economy,

(26:03):
actually, you're actually hurting public health.
So Deborah Birx was not brought in by Matt Pottinger.
Her lie in her book was that shewas friends with Matt
Pottinger's wife. Matt Pontinger's wife, who she
had worked with like in 2014 or something, somehow managed on
her cell phone. So it's all on cell phones and
things that you can't FOIA. No public records exist of the

(26:26):
conversations that she was having with Matt and with Yen
behind the scenes in January 2020, when nothing was
happening, literally nothing washappening.
There was no, you know, as we said, we knew already that the
virus was not very dangerous to anybody.
She was having these secret conversations because she was
advising Matt about how this could become this huge pandemic.

(26:48):
And then Matt said, you have to come and help me.
You have to come and be. First.
He offered her a job in January to be like the advisor on
pandemics or something. And then he offered her another
job and then finally in February, the end of February,
where she became the coordinator.
But then we we have on, you know, in an interview, we have
the actual national security advisor saying we brought in

(27:10):
Deborah Burke. So it was not Matt Pottinger.
That's the lie that gave me the clue that she was lying about
where she came from. But if she if she had more power
than Trump, and that's also a very interesting dynamic, which
I'll come to, who was she working for?
Yeah, so, yeah. So she was working for the
National Security Council and she and the National Security

(27:34):
Council is the all of the intelligence community.
So in the United States there's like 17 intelligence agencies.
There's ACIN, the FBI that everybody knows about, but then
there's the Naval Intelligence Agency and the Air Force
Intelligence Agency and all these other intelligence
agencies. There's seventeen of them.
So she was representing that community which somehow, for

(27:55):
some reason was in charge of this supposedly public health
event. But now let's go to Trump, just
for a moment. I would presume from everything
that I have seen, he doesn't like to be controlled.
So what was going on there? Yeah, so in every country, not

(28:17):
just in the United States, the Global Bio defence public
private partnership took over. So what that means is they, I
think, OK, so this is now conjecture.
So I know that he didn't have the power because he was
tweeting in May of 2020. Open up the country.
He literally tweeted a tweet. Open up the country.

(28:39):
Who is he talking to? He's the president.
Why is he tweeting? Open up the country.
Just go and open it up if you want to open it up.
So clearly he didn't have the power.
And Scott Atlas in his book alsoexplained that everybody was
all, all the difference was giving to Deborah Burks.
And and Trump told him at the end, you know, when he had to

(29:00):
leave, that basically, you know,it wasn't Fauci who was the
problem, it was Deborah Burks. That's why I think he went after
USAID. And right now he's going after
the National Security Council. So there's certain agencies and
people and groups that that whatthat usurped his power during
the pandemic. And he's trying to get back at
them. He can't because they're still
in charge, but he's trying. And so he.

(29:23):
Yeah, go ahead. Sorry.
No, no, go on. So in every country in the
United States, at the beginning,everybody was saying
everything's fine. It's just that, you know, not,
don't worry about it. The Chinese are overreacting.
And there's a date which is February 27th, which is the date
that Deborah Burke actually tookover, which as I think when they

(29:44):
switched the narrative to, Oh myGod, this is so scary.
We have to lock everything down.But that was all coming from a
global place. It was coming from this global
public private partnership and it was being channelled through
the UN and The Who. So all of these global
governance bodies, which are like just coordinating
mechanisms for global control. That's not, it didn't originate.

(30:08):
It's not like the The Who sat, the chief of The Who sat down
and said, I'm going to do this terrible thing to the world.
He was just a conduit for the cartel to say, OK, this is what
we're going to do. And so it all came from there.
And, and many countries have in their foyers and in their
investigations have have revealed that on the local

(30:29):
level, people were not allowed to respond to what was happening
on the local level. Whether there was or wasn't an
outbreak, they had to get, they were getting their orders not
even from their national government, because their
national government was getting orders from somewhere else.
And the same was true for Trump.They were all getting their
orders from, you know, The Who or the UN or NATO or whoever was

(30:52):
sort of sending out the, you know, message.
This is what you need to do right now.
OK, but then Deborah, what did, what do you think Trump knew?
Was he a blockade who was just ignorant or or did he know more
than what it appears that he knew?

(31:15):
I well, he knew more than he appears because he's not allowed
to say. So in an interview at some point
when he said he was talking about the lab leak and that it
came from that it was a lab leak.
And at some point somebody said,how do you know that?
And he said I can't tell you. I can't tell you.
He said like to Time magazine orsomething.

(31:35):
So like he do things or he heardthings that he wasn't allowed to
talk about. And what I think happened is
him, Boris Johnson, other leaders who were very resistant
to shutting down the economy because they knew that shutting
down the economy would destroy their country.
It certainly would destroy them politically and they were
resisting that. I think what happened was that

(31:56):
they were, and now I'm going to say everything I've set up to
now I have, I can back it up with documentation.
I can't back this up with documentation.
This is my conjecture is that they were told that this was a
dangerous bio weapon and if theydidn't lock everything down and
they didn't go along with the protocol of lockdown until
vaccine, then a lot of people would die and they would be

(32:18):
blamed for it. But they would also be they
would also be able to claim victory in the end because these
mRNA vaccines are so great. They're the greatest thing in
the history of mankind. And they would be able to claim
that as their solution. And so they would actually get a
lot of credit at the end becausewe know in England, for sure, at

(32:42):
the very beginning of the pandemic, like in March, Dominic
Cummings, in one of his testimony, said Bill Gates and
people like that were coming andsaying, oh, don't worry about
it. We're going to have a vaccine.
And this mRNA is great. So they were already talking
about Bill Gates and mRNA in March 2020, which is very odd

(33:02):
because, you know, by the end of2020 there was no need to worry
about the virus and there was noneed for any vaccine.
But they were already planning it in March 2020.
OK, but then was Trump, was he outplayed?
Was he duped into thinking that warp speed was going to be a
great Make America Great Again strategy?

(33:25):
And he still thinks it. Yes, he still thinks it.
Or he says he does. He can't say anything else.
If he says something else, then he's probably not going to be
protected by the PREP Act, whichis the liability shield that
everybody has for anything to dowith COVID countermeasures.
And, you know, you can't admit that everybody lied about it and

(33:49):
so and still have some kind of liability shield.
So I think he can't admit it. But also knowing Trump, you
know, he definitely wants to take credit for something.
And so he always says that it was the greatest, most beautiful
thing in the world, which I think is the beautiful vaccine.
Yeah. But what I don't understand is
that was in 2020. We're 9/20/25 and he is

(34:11):
surrounded with different peoplelike RFK.
Surely. Surely Trump must know something
more than what he did in 2020. He do it then and he knows it
now, but he's not in charge. RFK is not in charge.
Like you said, it's a UNI party.So the UNI party, the structure

(34:31):
that controls the UNI party is the structure that is the global
public private partnership. And it very hard to
conceptualise. Again, it's like it's not two
people or five people sitting around the table.
It's a huge beast. It's all the corporations that
pay the politicians. OK, so every politician in every
country is 100% owned by corporations.

(34:55):
So that's called the public private partnership.
So the the politician is acting on behalf of the corporations,
the politician is not acting on behalf of the voters.
So voting, you know, you can think about whether how
effective that is in achieving any kind of meaningful change
when you have it's corruption. So what people have to

(35:16):
understand is that we're at a point in the world, and this
happens with every system, whereit's power accrues slowly to the
people who have it. So a little bit, when you have a
little bit of power, it helps you get more power.
And when you have more power, ithelps you get more power.
It's just the natural flow of how it's like flow of energy,
flow of power. And so power flows to those who

(35:37):
haven't. And even if you have little
pockets of power, and then thosepockets get a little more and a
little more, you get to a point where they have so much that you
can't balance it out anymore. And that's where we are.
So the power has all got got sucked up to the top and not to
the top of the national structure, to the top of the
global structure. So the oligarchs, the tech Bros,

(35:58):
the tech companies, the global corporations, the global
governance bodies like the WEF, which coordinate all of these
things, the global consulting companies and the global banking
system, they have all the power.There's nothing you can't argue
with that. They have all the power.
So it's funny to talk about Trump or Burks or RFK, you know,

(36:23):
some of those people I like, some of those people I don't
like they're, they're pawns and they go into the system thinking
that they're going to maybe be able to change it.
But I believe that when you get sucked into the system, it's
over as far as being able to change it.
I. Think what I'm trying to Sorry,
go on. No.
So I think that Trump might havewanted to resist and he might

(36:46):
have had other ideas about what he wanted to do.
But, and I'm sure he didn't wantto shut down the economy.
I'm sure he didn't think that was a good idea.
And I'm sure. And just for his own survival,
he knew that it was going to tank his presidency and he knew
that they were making him do things that would tank his
presidency. And he didn't want that.
And. And And so.

(37:07):
Yeah. And then Biden came in and and
it's, it's, I mean, I'm not evenan American.
I'm, I'm just an onlooker. But there's no possible way in
any, in any universe that Biden was pulling the strings.
There's no ways. Of course not.
He's well here. I always he.
Can't even he can't even speak in full sentences.
So we all knew that he was a zombie, right?

(37:29):
He was a zombie for four years. It got increasingly worse, but
people, people knew in 2018 thathe was already mentally unfit.
So I always tell people who talkabout Trump now, Trump 2.0 For
four years we had a zombie president which showed us, it
revealed very, very clearly. It like it almost in our faces

(37:49):
that it doesn't matter who the president is, he's not in
charge, right? We knew he wasn't in charge and
we knew the whole media, the whole political class, including
Republicans, all of them were all hiding it and covering it
up. OK.
So we knew the presidency is an empty office that is controlled.

(38:10):
Now we have somebody else in that office and for some reason
we think that office is not controlled anymore.
He was controlled back in 2020 and Biden was controlled.
He wasn't even a person, you know, a competent person as far
as I'm concerned. And now we have him, the same
office, the same structures, thesame legal structures, the same

(38:30):
power structures, the same global structures, all in place.
And now we think somehow that the president isn't isn't a
puppet. He all of a sudden has a lot of
power. Yeah.
So what you're saying basically is if if we can all agree that
Biden was not pulling the strings, on what grounds do you
think therefore that Trump is pulling the strings?

(38:52):
Thank you. That's exactly right.
Yeah, I don't, I don't see how anybody can, can make that
shift. But I under, I mean, people
really, really want to believe that you can change from within
the system. That's what we're fighting
against is that people want to believe that you can change the
system from within. And I was just thinking today

(39:12):
about the term black pill because I'm called black pill,
but because I'm saying that you can't change it within the
system. So people think that I'm a
nihilist or that I don't have any solutions.
And the point is, there's only two pills.
There's the red pill and the blue pill.
This is from the Matrix, right? Either you're either you are a
body that's lying in a protein bath and your energy is being

(39:37):
sucked into the system and you're being told in your mind
that you're living a life, but actually the system is just
using your energy for its own sustain, for its own sustenance,
or you're outside of the system.Those are the only two options.
There's no other option. So when you say black pill is
just the new red pill, it's justsaying we're still out of the

(39:58):
system. We were out of the system during
COVID and we're still out of thesystem now.
And it's not saying that there aren't good people in the
system. And it's not saying that there
aren't people who have good motives in the system.
It's not saying that it's it's saying that in order to change,
first everybody has to get out of the protein bath.
Everybody has to get out, Unplug.
Then the system will be starved.The only way is to starve the

(40:22):
system. You can't do it inside, you
can't do it from inside. Catherine Austin Fitz made a
great comment which he said thatKennedy might have good
intentions, but once you get into the machine, you become
part of the machine, right? Yeah, Catherine, I agree with
Catherine on most things. Yeah.

(40:46):
But, but, but now I want to point out something because this
invariably happens. But Debbie, you're letting Fauci
off the hook. Fauci, wow, I care.
I so I care so little about Fauci.
But you know, if you, you can try him, you can hang him and
still nothing will change. So it's fine.

(41:08):
I'm I'm OK if you want to do that.
I think he's a bad man. I think Gates is a bad man.
I think a lot of people are bad people.
Some people in the system are bad and some people in the
system are good. You can go after the bad ones,
but you still haven't changed the system.
So so if you want to. Spend your sorry, sorry, sorry,
I'm interrupting, but I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm on your train of

(41:28):
thought. What what you're saying is you
can go off to all these people, but all you're doing is you're
just treating the symptoms. You have to go to the root
cause. Yes, I'll tell you another
analogy that I like. So there's the matrix analogy,
There's the analogy of the cancer patient that I use a lot.
Now this is also about celebrating small victories,
which I don't believe in becauseI think it distracts us from the

(41:51):
actual problem. So Jane is a middle aged woman
who came down with stage 4 metastatic cancer.
It's all over. It's all over her bones and it's
in some of her organs. And she had breast cancer when
she was younger. So when she got this metastatic
cancer, her doctor said, oh, it must be breast cancer that

(42:13):
spread. So we're going to treat it as
breast cancer and start giving her breast cancer treatments.
And then somebody else, some other doctors checked her and
said, wait a minute, it might, it looks actually like it might
be in the it's in the kidneys. It might have started in the
kidneys. This isn't a true story.
It's just a fable, OK? It's just an analogy to explain
something. So because it's not medically,
you know, accurate, but so she has.

(42:35):
So the breast cancer doctor saysit started in the breast, so we
need to treat it as breast cancer.
The kidney, kidney cancer doctorsays, oh, it looks like it might
start in the kidneys. Let's treat it with kidney
stuff. It's starting to get in her
brain. It's in her bones.
They do things to the breasts and to the kidneys.
And every time they do that, they ask her, does that feel a
little bit better? Like they reduce the mass in the

(42:56):
breasts, they reduce the pain inthe breasts.
They reduce the pain in the kidneys or the urinary problems
that she's having because of herkidney cancer.
She says yes, it's it's relieving that in the meantime
she's getting foggy in the brain, she's getting migraines.
She can't, she can't sleep, she can barely function.
And they're treating her breastsand her kidneys and the family,

(43:20):
some of them are on the side of the breast doctor.
Some of them are on the side of the kidney doctor.
So they're all arguing about whether they should be treating
the breasts or the kidneys. And they celebrate every time
they give her a treatment that lowers the mass or they take out
a mass from the kidney or they take out a mass because it's
growing everywhere. That's the analogy.
She's dying. They're they're treating parts

(43:42):
of her body and it's helping that part for a short time and
they are complete. And then there's the doctors who
come and say, wait a minute, I have this natural naturopathic
treatment that might actually address the whole system, which
is what you need to do when you have metastatic cancer.
They say, no, no, no, you don't know what you're talking about.
You're a kook. You're a, you're not in the

(44:03):
system, you don't understand we really need to treat this as
breast cancer or as kidney cancer and we need to do that's
that's what we need to do. You don't know what you're
talking about. So anybody who comes with a
systemic idea and says, actually, it's all over her
body, why don't we try to treat it all over her body gets pushed
aside. And so that's exactly what's
happening now. And that's what what it means to

(44:25):
call somebody black pilled is tosay you're not treating the
kidney or you're not treating the breast.
Those are the only two that we can treat because those are the
real doctors. And we can't treat the whole
system because it's too hard. Treating metastatic cancer is
like almost impossible. You know, people who almost
always die. It's really, really, really
hard. It's much harder when treating

(44:46):
the breast or treating the kidneys.
And it doesn't yield results right away.
And the patient is getting worseand the patient is getting worse
and you really want to do something.
You want to do something positive.
Let's have some small victories.Let's take a mass out of her
knee and her knee will feel better, you know, Let's take a
mass out of her neck, you know, and that'll make her feel, yes,
it'll make her feel better for alittle while, but it's still

(45:08):
growing everywhere else. So that's the small victory
story that people are telling themselves when they go into the
system. Going into the system means that
you buy into the story that you can treat the breasts or you can
treat the kidneys and you don't have to treat the whole patient.
So what you're saying is we needto be more radical now with a
lot of the stuff. So if, if, for example, the

(45:28):
vaccine schedule, the 74 vaccines for kids and it drops
down to 73, I mean, I mean, it'sstill 73 vaccines, you know, So
that small victory of 1 vaccine makes very little difference.
We've got to go after the entireschedule, basically.
That's right. And what I'm not even saying
let's go after the schedule, Jeremy.
I'm actually saying they're always going to do that.

(45:49):
They're going to do partial things and they're going to say
we need to study it and we need evidence.
And you know all that. We don't need any more evidence.
We need to be outside saying to parents like you and like my
kids, let's say when they have kids, here's the danger.
The system is a danger to you, the system is a danger to you.

(46:13):
That's what I feel my job is. Stay outside of it.
That's it. That's all.
And then we can have a solution because if everybody doesn't
take any vaccines, not let's lower it from 73 to 4 to 73,
everybody says no, we're not taking them anymore.
Everybody, that's my job. Everybody should be saying, and
that's what everybody who went into the system like RFK and all

(46:35):
those people should be doing now.
They should be outside the system saying we learned from
COVID that the system is workingagainst us.
It doesn't have our best interests in mind.
No matter what we do, it's goingto try to have small victories.
But the cancer is still there. It's in the body.
They're not addressing the cancer.
We need to be outside the body and we need to be saying, first
of all, don't comply. Second of all, let's all think

(46:58):
of something together, other systems that we can build, but
first everybody has to get out of the Matrix.
If everybody's still giving their energy and their body to
the Matrix, they're sitting in their protein bath, we're not
going to get anywhere. So Debbie, coming now to Trump
2.0, one of his big things now is the lab leak, is that is that

(47:22):
a distraction? Absolutely.
As we said, well, as we said before, it doesn't really matter
where the virus came from or whether it exists or who made it
or if it came from a pangolin because that's not what caused
the pandemic. What caused the pandemic?
Oh, why is he pushing it? Oh, I see, I see, I see.

(47:44):
Well, I, I don't know. I don't like to guess about
motives, but my, you know, the results are the results of him
pushing it are that he is now getting all the people who were
suspicious and said, oh, Trump was part of the, you know, Trump
did bad things during COVID. Oh, now he's admitting it.
Now he's the good guy. Now we don't have to be

(48:06):
suspicious of him anymore. Now we can, you know, now we
know that he's on our side. OK, So now he's the Doctor Who's
coming in and saying I'm going to treat the breasts.
And yay, look, I just took out abig mass from the breasts and
everybody's like, yay, he's treating the patient.
Finally he's treating the breastbecause the other, the other

(48:28):
doctors were only treating the kidneys.
They didn't really know what they were doing.
He's treating the breasts, yay. Now we know that he's on our
side and that we don't have to worry about him.
And his administration is going to admit they're, they're
transparent, right? So they like to say that they're
transparent. I can tell you they're
absolutely not transparent aboutany more than any other

(48:49):
administration. So he can say he's transparent.
He can say that he's not censoring, even though his
administration was the one that was censoring in in February,
January and February 2020 about the lab leaks.
So he didn't come out and say, I'm sorry that my administration
was censoring, right. He's coming out and saying the

(49:10):
Biden administration was censoring and I'm not censoring
anymore. That's a lie his administration
was censoring. So that's a nut.
He covers up his his complicity of his administration in the
censorship industrial complex, same as the Democrats, not
different. He covers up his he compensates
for people saying, well, you know, he locked down and he did

(49:33):
bad things. But now he's telling the truth
and he distracts everyone from the lockdown until vaccine
problem, which is the big problem.
And he talks about the virus, which is not the problem at all.
So the virus is not even a problem.
So he's distracting, he's covering up his complicity, and
he's bringing in people into theMatrix who were outside of it.

(49:55):
But does does the whole lab leaknarrative also act as a
protection shield of the deep state?
Absolutely. Yeah.
So that he is, he is acting on behalf of the deep state because
he can't help it. Again, I'm not, I don't blame
people, I don't blame Trump. I don't blame anybody.
I don't care about anybody. Like that's why I said to you

(50:16):
like, I don't really care about Burks personally or Trump or
Fauci. I care about what their role is,
what is their role in the system.
And his role is to cover up for the deep state.
That's what every president's role is.
That's what every public officials role is, is to cover
up for the deep state. And again, the deep state is a
conglomeration on a global levelof military industrial complex,

(50:39):
big corporations, you know, corrupt government officials,
they're all corrupted at this point.
So it's huge. It's very, very huge.
And the banking system, which wecan't forget, Catherine Austin
Fitz is probably, I don't know if you've talked to her about
this particular issue, but the financial control is really
something that we have to worry about.
But something that is so obviousto me also that just seems to

(51:04):
miss with everybody seems to miss this, but China, how?
How do people always fall into the trap of seeing China as the
enemy? And Trump does this really well.
Yeah, Yeah, that's a that's a good point.
So actually, thank you. That actually sets me up for my
my 3 distractions that I always say are being used by the cartel

(51:28):
in order to distract us from them.
Blame Fauci, blame China and blame the virus.
So we already talked about two. We talked about blame Fauch, we
talked about blame the virus. Now we can talk about blame
China. It's the same.
It's exactly. The same, I mean, it's not like
it's not like blame Vietnam or blame New Zealand.
It's China. And and it's because China is

(51:49):
this massive economy that is about to become the the most
powerful economy in the world. So there's clearly something
else going on behind the scenes.Yeah.
I mean, well, we obviously let them become we are elites.
So again, it's not, it's hard totalk about nation states
anymore. I feel like talking about nation
states is also a little bit misleading because right, I

(52:12):
mean, there's the overlap on theglobal level of the people who
are controlling the nation states is so large.
So the overlap between our our elites and the Chinese elites.
So our corporations and our sortof cartel, our, our ruling
cartel is the same as the Chinese ruling cartel.
So our leaders at some point decided that it would be much

(52:33):
better to offshore everything. So we don't.
So our leaders are, you know, oligarchs don't care about the
people, just like the Russian oligarchs don't care about their
people and the Chinese oligarchsdon't care about their people.
They don't care about the people.
They care about their power and their influence, which makes
sense. Anybody who has power and money
wants more power and more money.They don't care about the people

(52:56):
who don't have power and money. So the people who had power and
money in the United States and the West decided that it would
be better for them and they would have more power and money
if their workers who'd cost themtoo much money, weren't in
charge anymore. So they could send the jobs to
the places where they didn't have to pay that much, and then
they could cut. They could bring the stuff back,

(53:17):
and everybody would have to buy it.
And they did that. They gave China that power.
China was like, hey, yeah, thanks.
We're going to take a billion people and raise them out of
abject poverty. Thank you for that.
And we're going to become a hugeglobal power.
But their oligarchs are working with our oligarchs.
They're all getting more money and more power.
And all of the people are getting less.

(53:39):
That's all that matters right now.
And so blame China is another way to say we're better, we're
OK now. We're OK We have Trump or
Republicans or we have something, we have tariffs,
whatever. We're OK now because we're
protecting ourselves from China.But we're just working with
China. We aren't, we aren't.
There's no we, there's no we, there's our elites and their
elites. And they're all working together

(54:01):
to make us poorer, to make us put us under surveillance, put
us under financial control. So there's really I I don't see
a big difference. Yeah, you just kind of answered
my next question I was going to ask.
So the what was the point of theCOVID event?
Yeah, so the point was to get more power, more influence and

(54:22):
more money into the global ruling elites.
So it was the biggest shift in wealth in history.
Trillions of dollars went from the population into the pockets
of the very, very wealthy and the corporations.
It was a way to roll out certainsurveillance mechanisms like
vaccine passports are a very good way to roll out kind of

(54:44):
health surveillance so and also to control people's movements.
Because if there is a universal vaccine passport like the UN and
The Who now are advocating not by themselves on behalf of the
cartel, they are advocating thatthat means that then we can only
travel if we get certain medicalinterventions.
And then they also want to introduce financial control in

(55:06):
the same way. And Catherine Austin Fitz has
some really good clips from central bankers, international
central bankers who are saying like, if we have central bank
digital currency and it doesn't have to be from the central
banks, it can be private. There's different kinds of
digital currency, but they have the same control.
So people have to understand that.
Again, it's a public private partnership.
So if we have digital currency from wherever, whatever source

(55:31):
we can control, what people do, we can digital.
ID buy. And digital ID, we can control
what they buy, we can control what they what they spend their
money on. We can control their healthcare,
we can control where they go, wecan control what they say.
It's like a totalitarian's dream.

(55:52):
And that's what they kind of, I think started rolling out as a
practise run or just as it's kind of like starting to get the
population used to the idea because a lot of people thought
it was great to have, you know, a vaccine passports, right?
So they got people used to the idea that this was actually a
good thing. This is for your safety.

(56:13):
And now what they're doing is instead of saying it's for your
safety about viruses, they're saying it's for your safety
because of the evil immigrants. So the evil, evil immigrants are
all criminals, and we have to protect ourselves against the
criminal immigrants. And so we need digital IDs so
that we can protect ourselves, so that we can authenticate who
we are. It's the same thing.

(56:33):
It's the same thing. It's just a different boogeyman
that they're using to get a different population used to the
idea that digital IDs and digital control is a good thing.
That's why I think it was Whitney Webber who said that the
Trump administration in many ways is more dangerous than the
Biden administration because because he's got such a big fan

(56:56):
base that just about anything hesays will be supported and and
it'll be packaged in a better way.
But it's effectively the same thing.
That's right. I don't know if you know Shannon
Joy. Shannon Joy isn't.
Yeah. So Shannon says it's just packed
in red meat. So she says it's wrapped in red
meat. So you basically take whatever

(57:16):
was vegan before, like the viruswas wrapped in vegan, you know,
tofu and this is wrapped in red meat for the other audience.
And yeah, it's exactly the same thing.
And it, and I agree with WhitneyWebb that it is as dangerous, if
not more dangerous, because now it's the other half of the
population. So 1/2 has already been

(57:37):
corralled. The half that believes that it's
good to have digital surveillance because of
diseases, now we have half that are happy to have digital
surveillance because of immigrants or whatever.
Just to touch on something that you said now a few minutes ago.
So my wife and I didn't have a single PCR test at all.

(57:58):
Not one. In fact, as a joke, last year,
somebody gave me APCR test as just as a, as a, as a gift,
because it was funny. And because I didn't know what
it, what it was, I had to open it and I had to read it, you
know, I just didn't know what itwas.
And, and we didn't get vaccinated either.
So we had decided that, well, ifa vaccine passport is required

(58:22):
to leave the country, well, that's it.
We're going to have to learn to enjoy our country and travel
around the country because we'renot, we're not going down that
road. We're not going to legitimise
the system and we're not going to inject some toxin into our
body and, and, and we were not going to legitimise the system

(58:43):
by getting a fake passport because so I just didn't want to
be at all linked to any of that.As it turns out, the I I'm not
quite sure what happened, if it was because there was a big
public response that they weren't expecting, but a lot of
that stuff fell away temporarily, which is a good
thing. Yeah, I'm glad.

(59:06):
I mean, I was duped into gettingthe original vaccines.
So I am petrified for the rest of my life seriously, because
not that I thought that it was good or anything, but I didn't
realise how bad it was. And I needed to travel for my
daughter, but and I and I never did any tests except that one
when I travelled. And I, whenever anybody asked me

(59:30):
if I had COVID, I'm like, I don't know.
I never tested. I have no idea if I had ever had
COVID actually, to tell you the truth, I'm sure if there was a
germ going around, I did have a very bad flu of a kind that I
had never had before. But I don't know.
And I and and so. As I just said to you, there
wasn't a germ going around because I didn't go anywhere.

(59:51):
Yeah, you didn't. A germ wasn't going so.
Sorry, go on. No, no, no.
So, yeah. So, yeah.
So if everybody had done what you did.
Then there would be no vaccine passports and there would be no
vaccines. And that's my point.
My point is, even I fell for some things, even though I knew

(01:00:13):
in March 2020 that everything was a lie, even though I was.
I hadn't really started my research though.
I had only started my research in 2022, but I still knew
everything was a lie. I didn't know why.
I didn't know how bad the vaccines were, but even I got
duped because I just wanted it to be over.
Now people think it's over. Now, people don't want to talk
about COVID, which I find to be just the most frightening thing.

(01:00:35):
So the biggest event in the 21stcentury, and I would argue in
our lifetimes in terms of touching every person on the
planet, right? It affected almost every person
on the planet. I would say there's very few
people out of the 8 billion people on the planet who weren't
affected by it. Now, there's other things going
on that are huge. There's the Ukraine war that's
affecting millions of people, 911.

(01:00:58):
There's Israel, Gaza. I'm talking about what's
happening now. I mean, there's things happening
in the world that are affecting many, many people very, very
badly. And I'm not belittling anything,
any of those events. But COVID affected every person
in the world. It probably it killed millions.
The vaccines killed millions of people and injured millions of
people, more than any war, more than any single war.

(01:01:20):
So it was a war against the population of the world that was
done by the global elites. If we want to be very, you know,
very short, if we just want a short description of COVID, it
was the global elites fighting awar against the population of
the world. That's what it was and it's the
biggest event as I can. As far as I can tell, it's

(01:01:43):
never, it couldn't have happenedbefore all of the technology
that we have now that enables these global systems to operate,
right. So that's why it happened on a
global level. So it used to be that the people
with all the money and the powercould operate within the realm
of their within their Kingdom, within their empire.
But there was always something outside of it.

(01:02:03):
And now the global, it's global and it's a global control
network. And so there, it's very hard to
find something outside of that control network.
And I think that's unprecedented.
I think it is something that people need to, people don't
want to talk about it because it's so scary and it's so
unfathomable. It's unfathomable.

(01:02:25):
They want to believe that on a local level, we can still, we
can still operate on a local level and we can still achieve
something, which I agree. If you go hyper, hyper local, I
think that's really a place that's a good place to put your
energy and your time finding people you trust and creating
systems that are trustworthy andthat are not corrupt because the
problem in every system of poweris corruption.

(01:02:48):
Every, everything. I mean, look, my husband and I
who are not, we're not religious.
We're reading the Bible now because the Bible.
No really, because the Bible tell are you?
It tells the story over and overand over and over again of how
every system starts out with good intentions and with laws or

(01:03:09):
things that are going to protectus from the powerful.
So the powerful can't be completely corrupt.
There's always going to be some corruption and some conspiracies
and things. But as people get more and more
power, they get more and more corrupt, and then the system
collapses and then it starts allover again.
It just over and over and over. And that's what human history
is, that's what religion is, that's what our laws are for.

(01:03:32):
And so it's a little bit calmingto see that this is something
that has always happened and it's going to happen again.
You mentioned Scott Atlas in passing earlier, and a lot of
people don't know who he is, butI've got a a quote here from,
well, it's from Trump speaking to Scott, saying you were right
about everything all along the way.

(01:03:53):
And you know what? You also write about something
else. Fauci wasn't the biggest problem
of them all. It really wasn't him.
Right. That's the quote that I was
talking about where he was saying it was Deborah Burke.
So what he was saying was if thenational security apparatus that
was forcing me to do these things, he didn't say that to
Scott Atlas because Scott Atlas still doesn't know.
Scott Atlas thinks that they were just all really done.

(01:04:15):
And but that's what Trump was saying.
Oh, OK, but who is who is he saying it to?
He was. Saying it to Scott Atlas, he was
he. He was saying.
It to Scott Atlas, but he didn'ttell Scott Atlas it was the
National Security Council. He just said it wasn't ouchy,
right? But now he's going after USAID,
he's going after the National Security Council.

(01:04:36):
He's not dismantling anything. You know, the military budget is
bigger than it's ever been. He's not touching any of it, but
he is performatively expressing his displeasure with the parts
of the national security state that visibly undermined his
presidency so. Well, I mean, Trump, Trump just,

(01:04:58):
I think he, I think if, if I gotthis right, he requested an
expansion to the military budgetalmost to the tune of a trillion
U.S. dollars. It's the largest ever.
It's the largest ever. I don't know if he the expansion
is a trillion or if it brought it up to a trillion, but yeah,
it's the biggest ever, yeah. I mean, why?
And Elon Musk is the biggest military contractor of the US

(01:05:20):
government. So thinking that he's somehow on
our side is, is interesting. Why?
Same. He's just part of the cartel.
I mean, again, I don't have any personal thoughts or feelings
about these people. Or, you know, I think some of
them are more evil than others, but it doesn't really matter.
They're not on my side. And I, I really feel scared when

(01:05:45):
people buy into the propaganda about how somebody who is the
richest person, one of the richest people in the world, who
has the most military contracts for surveillance, right?
I mean, his company, his satellite company is about
surveillance, right? That's what it's about.
Whose platform X is now just like a right wing like echo

(01:06:11):
chamber, just like blue sky is aleft wing echo chamber.
You know, they pretended to be this free speech thing, but
they're totally censoring. They never stop censoring on X
just like every other platform because it's not Elon.
Again, not not about Elon. It's about him being part of a
giant system that's working against us.

(01:06:32):
He is the global elites. He is not the people and it's,
and for me, it's like who is in the global who's, who's working
for the global elites and who's working for the people?
He's not working for the people.And believing that is just so
naive in my opinion. I, I find it really hard to
understand the Musk cult. I'm very.
I find it hard to understand. Tell me more about your book and

(01:06:55):
how I can get it. And by the way, I'm going to
insist that you send me a personalised copy of your book
with with you writing in the front of it.
I will, I will here I'll show you, I'll show you what it looks
like. It's I think it's upside down,
it's backwards, but it's called the deep state goes viral.

(01:07:17):
And so my, my pitch is let's make the deep state goes viral,
viral go viral. Let's make the deep state goes
viral go viral. It's going pretty viral.
It's, it's doing well. You can get it on Amazon.
Unfortunately, Brownstone published it and Brownstone only

(01:07:38):
sells it through Amazon. It's kind of like, I think a
print on demand thing that Amazon does.
So it's not like there's a huge warehouse where there's a lot of
books sitting around. It's like when you order it,
they'll print it and send it to you, which is a really great
service. Unfortunately, it's coming from
Amazon, but there's also an audio version and there's also a
Kindle version. And what did you ask about the

(01:07:59):
book also? Well, I was just asking how I
can. How you can get, I'll send you a
copy. You can get it on Amazon.
So I think the audio version is available on the US Amazon and I
think the print copies are available definitely on the UK
version. You can order a print copy and
you can also get the Kindle version on the UK Amazon,

(01:08:24):
amazon.com.ukithinkoramazon.uk and it's doing really well.
If you want to read it and review it, that would be
awesome. It's now #1 and it has been,
it's only been out for two weeks.
It's number one in new releases under public policy and it's #1
under new releases in another public policy in government

(01:08:48):
category. Now, I don't know if that means
anything, but following the numbers, it's also in the top
200 in the book category of, of public policy and world history.
It's like in the top 300. So that's, that's, that's good
for a book that's only been out for two weeks.
So I'm trying to get people to help me get the word out because

(01:09:10):
I think I'm not getting rich offof it.
And it's more about getting the word out to people who might not
have thought about the things that Jeremy and I have talked
about today. So people who might still be
thinking a lot in terms of localpolitics or in terms of we don't
want to talk about COVID anymorebecause it's over.

(01:09:33):
This is about how COVID actuallyis, not about COVID.
I mean, that's why it's called the deep state goes viral.
It's not the subhead is the COVID coup, pandemic planning
and the COVID coup. So it's about how COVID is just
a way for the power structures in the world to accomplish the

(01:09:55):
things that they want to accomplish.
And I think that's a message that actually people on all
sides of politics and in all countries that were affected by
it, which is almost every country can, can really start to
hopefully explore. Well, you said that you're not
getting rich offered, but I can tell you that I am richer for
speaking to you on on this exacttopic.

(01:10:17):
So on that note, Debbie Lumen, thank you for joining me in the
trenches. Thank you so much, I really
appreciate it.