Weekly UKC Banter: Episode 6

Stop being so damn defeatist…Negativity everywhere? Don’t give in. Jerm, Mike, and Charles say we’ve got more power than we think — and now’s the time to use it.https://www.ukcolumn.org/series/jerm-warfare

Episode Transcript

(00:35):
None. I chatted a few days ago with a
friend of mine, Zubie. He is a Nigerian born hip hop
artist who grew up in Saudi Arabia for about 20 years and
has an American accent. It's the funniest thing.
Like he is the epitome of of internationalisation and his

(00:59):
story is is fantastic. But what's even better about
him, besides the fact that he has a huge following of like
1,000,000 or 2 million people onon X, he is remarkably uplifting
and positive and he gets so trashed for that and I find it
so disappointing, Mike. I don't know what to say to

(01:24):
that. I mean, I think this is, I think
what you're expressing is, is a,a recognition that, that the
majority of people are, are deeply pessimistic about, about
life, the universe and everything.
At the moment. It's, it's not surprising
because people are witnessing anout of control global elite and

(01:47):
they feel like they have no agency.
They feel like they have no way of dealing with it.
And. And in fact, I would argue that
that's simply wrong. It's it's more than pessimistic
though. It's almost nihilistic.
Yeah, but we have been trained. We've been trained through the
mass media. It doesn't matter whether it's

(02:07):
the news media or, or Hollywood or whatever.
We've been trained to think thisway.
And and it's very hard to break out of that.
And you know, that's why a lot of people argue that what we
need is, is a cultural renaissance of some kind.
And, and, you know, that was theproblem is that, that, you know,

(02:30):
the, the, the mass media entertainment is so sewn up that
it's very, very hard for people with, with positivity and people
with real cultural capability tobreak into, you know, to be
anything other than just an absolute niche.

(02:51):
And so, you know, I, I understand people's pessimism,
but, and as you say, possibly it's worse than that.
But you know, part of the problem is that I think part of
the problem is that we're not thinking about resistance really
with, we're looking for, we're looking for constantly looking

(03:13):
for a knight in shining armour to come and ride to the rescue
and save the day. And, and don't recognise that
actually the way out of this starts with us all individually
and how we feel within ourselvesand, and what we're doing to, to
deal with our own thought processes and, and, and opinions
and, and ideology and so on. And, and that's where it has to

(03:35):
start. And we have to search for the,
the things that that we find uplifting.
And sometimes for some people that means actually getting
involved in some form of activism, activism.
But but for for most people, it has to start with just what we
consume and recognise that that that what we consume isn't

(03:57):
necessarily good for us. I think there are a number of
different things to consider andone of them, and I think quite
an important one, is to what extent the individual wraps
themselves up in the so called problems that they see around
them. You know, if you, I think in the
United Kingdom, I know we in Germany you're podcasts, you

(04:19):
quite a lot of your guests are not from South Africa, have not
been South Africa and come from a country that's generally
regarded as being in a better state, whatever exactly that may
mean. And I think, I think you
articulate the differences really well.
But I would say it's an objective truth that the, the,

(04:41):
the way in which the United Kingdom functions is not as good
as it was 10 years ago or 20 years ago or 30 years ago.
I think, I think the decline of services across the board and
standards of behaviour in publichave have deteriorated.

(05:02):
And, and so that's, that's a negative.
But what I mean is when you, when you look at that, when you
consider that, if indeed that isyour view that that is that is
my view. Do you think therefore that that
has an impact on your life that is so direct that you're taking
a negative view of your life because of those changes that

(05:23):
have happened around you? And it, this goes slightly back
because actually I, I was listening to Zubi on the way
back from Plymouth and IA lot ofwhat he said, I, I absolutely
agreed with. And I, and I thought his point
about having children was a verygood one in that the only reason
we're here is because every preceding generation has decided

(05:46):
that they will bring children into the world.
And to take the view that the world is such a rock and place
that you're not going to do thatis remarkably pessimistic.
And, and so the point is that ina sense, regardless, and I know
that, that there is, this is said with, with an awareness of,

(06:10):
of there being a situation in which, you know, you are, say
you're in a sort of conflict zone where there's, there is
very little you can do about your circumstances immediately
around you. But, but in the most part,
whatever is going on around you doesn't have to affect the way
you think about the world and the way you regard your life.
You can still be positive and indeed lead a positive life in

(06:32):
as much as possible. And, and I think the, the reason
I've set it out like that is I think it slightly depends at
what point people have joined the roller coaster.
And this is, this is obviously ageneralisation, but I think the
way I regard what's happened in,in our lifetimes and, and I

(06:53):
should think the lifetimes of anybody who might be listening
to this, is that all these things that we've seen the, the
various corruptions and so forththat have informed our world
view. And by that I mean a world view
that is outside of the one that the mainstream wants us to have.
That's all very well, or at least was all very well up until

(07:16):
2020. Because actually the way in
which things were wrong by and large didn't have to affect the
way that you lived your life until 2020, at which point you
were for the most part, actuallyprevented from doing stuff.
You know, if you, if you had a, a job that involved going to a

(07:36):
workplace, the likelihood is that was shut down.
If you usually went to a church,that was shut down.
If it, you know, so, so actuallyall your agency was taken away,
but that left you socially and often professionally outside of
the far bigger BLOB that went along with it.
And So what you needed was, in asense, either ammunition or

(07:58):
vindication that you weren't mad.
And so when things did apparently get worse and worse
and worse, you know, as in the government did this and then did
that and then did that, you weresort of proving to yourself that
you were right. Of course, I can't speak for
everybody, but I think this is where we, a lot of people got

(08:19):
into a sort of pattern of not quite celebrating, but looking
for more bad news because it confirmed that their position
was the correct one, that they were right, that all this stuff
really was that bad. And the government really were
telegraphing that, that the nextthing you know, even though

(08:39):
Jenny Harris and the rest of them had said absolutely don't
wear a mask, It's completely pointless only for them all to
come out, you know, 5 minimization and say, by the
way, the one thing you've reallygot to do is, is wear a mask.
So I, I do think that that that plays a huge part in it.
And also if that's when people did join, then the other, the
other part to it, I, I think is that, well, a similar part is it

(09:05):
is that it really was a sort of,you know, a whole whole society
thing. And to, to take the view that,
well, you know, I'm just going to be positive about it.
And and this and the other was it was, it was difficult,
really, really difficult becausehow really, how do you do that?
And I think, I think for, I think there's a sort of there's
a hangover. And so going back to the point

(09:28):
about, you know, Zooby getting jumped on for saying this and
the other, yeah, OK, I don't understand it.
And I think that anybody who hadfallen into that trap should
really have found a way to get out of it.
And so then it that it does become a question of right,
well, what really, what do you want actually?
Do you want to just criticise and be negative about everything

(09:50):
or do you want to get out of it and improve your life?
And I'm afraid to say that I think quite a lot of people have
sadly been drawn into a situation where they do not want
to improve their circumstances. Yeah, I say nothing.
Because of the rooster. Yeah.
All right, OK, well, yeah, you know, he's having a he's having

(10:11):
a happy time. He's having a great time.
He's he's paying absolutely no attention to what anyone else is
telling him he's supposed to be doing.
Sorry, Mike, I interrupted you. Yeah.
No, I was just going to follow on for that a bit.
I think, I think what Charles said there about about people
wanting effectively confirmationthat they were right is, is a

(10:33):
valid 1. I think, I think the mistake
that that most people made was that that's where they stopped.
Once they got that confirmation,that was enough.
Then they just wanted more and more confirmation of the same
thing. And, and, you know, resisting
and opposing bad policy doesn't stop with just consumption of

(10:56):
more of the bad information. I mean, you know what, what does
the UK column do? We we in a sense contribute to
that because we are telling people what's going on in the
world. But but our hope has always been
that that and a lot of people dodo this.
But our hope has always been that people use that information
in a positive way and use it to,to, you know, help them inform

(11:20):
other people at the very least, but or or otherwise use it in
some form of activism and some actually doing something.
Because, because that it's that next step which actually takes
you out of the negativity. It's that next step of actually
getting, getting involved in, infighting back against it that
that removes the fear, removes the anxiety, removes the

(11:43):
absolutely removes any sense that that the world has gone mad
because you are contributing hopefully to making it a better
place. And, you know, we actually, you
know, we do what we do because that, that's been our choice of,
of how we express our disgust and our opposition to, to what

(12:06):
certain elites are doing. But you know, hopefully others
take, take that up and, and recognise that taking that step
and doing something is what is what is needed to, to actually
change your mind from being one of pure negativity to because I
don't view the world in a, in a massively negative way at all.

(12:28):
I, I think that everything that is going on is, is ultimately
solvable. And if I didn't feel that I
wouldn't be doing what I'm doing.
So, so it's chicken and egg. I'm not sure which comes first,
the possibly, you know, Rooster.In Charles's case, rooster or
egg. I'm not sure I I think you're
getting into other areas. Of I think it's still chicken as
well. But I think the point that Zooby

(12:53):
is making is not just being blase about being oh, I'm just a
positive, happy go lucky person.That's obviously not what he's
saying. His positivity is about changing
yourself for the better. Yeah, I think another thing just
to introduce is the, the idea of, well, the, the association

(13:18):
of isolation with these sorts oftendencies or behaviours.
And the problem is that once yousee it, you do well, a lot of
people want to evangelise and say, my goodness, have you any
idea what so and so is actually up to or, or what this actually

(13:38):
means? And the, the, it, it, the
problem is, I think for a lot ofpeople, it's terribly easy to
forget what it's like when you haven't made that mental
transition. And so the, you know, we talked
about it before, but the, the, the well recognised backfire
effect where you, you bound up to the first person you see and

(14:00):
say, God, did you know, did you have any idea what this, that
and the other is all about? And of course, unless you're
very lucky, the response you will get is probably at best one
of sort of polite scepticism, but but at worst it could be an
absolute repulsion, not just of what you've said, but but
therefore of you also. And so I think for a lot of

(14:23):
people who have tried to in effect, help others by making
them aware of whatever it is that they now know about the,
the effect has sort of been the opposite.
And they've been pushed further and further into, as I say, it's
a sense of isolation, which comes with the feelings of, of

(14:44):
negativity. So I, I think not, not, not in
any way dismissing what Zubi says, but I, but I, I do have
great sympathy for people who'vesort of ended up in that
position. And you know, let's not forget
that this is this has happened in within families.
I mean, it is too desperate for words, the fact that people have

(15:04):
actually turned against each other, or more accurately, been
turned against each other by presenting conflicting beliefs
and narratives. But that again speaks to the
problem, which of course is why is it that we live in a society
now where we can't apparently talk to each other about this,
that and the other, or at least you have to be very, very

(15:27):
careful of the ground that you prepare in order to lead into a
discussion about something, because otherwise it will, it
will go wrong. People will make a knee jerk
judgement of you and, and immediately therefore dismiss
the material. So I mean, I'm, I'm right with
him. I mean the, the, the core, the

(15:48):
core tenet I would say is if, ifyou start with a feeling of
negativity or rather the other way about, I suppose if you do
not start with a feeling of positivity and an absolute
definite belief in the sense that you are going to achieve
what you're going to achieve, whether that be just a state of

(16:10):
mind or, or something else, you,you are extremely unlikely to do
it. I would go further than that.
I would say that that a lot of people have experienced that
situation of, of attempting to, to bring up topics with, with
others and, and getting a, a massive rebuff in return.
But within the so called truth movement, within that group of

(16:36):
people, they're fighting amongstthemselves as well because
they're, because people have lost the willingness and the
ability to listen that everybodyhas decided that they are right
and that everybody else is wrong.
Even within the so called truth movement, this is the case.
And people have lost this if they ever had it in the first

(16:58):
place, but they've lost any sortof inquire, sense of inquiry.
And you know, and so we should be, in my opinion, we should be
attempting to learn from each other, not attempting to
bludgeon each other over the head with what we know.
And you know, I, this is, I've told this story before.
I don't in certain circumstances, but you know,

(17:19):
when I was in school and was having a discussion with
somebody and, and they turned around and said, who the hell do
you think you are to be telling me what to think?
And I, I said, well, I'm not telling you what to think.
I'm telling you what I think. And, and this is, this actually
is part of the problem. We, we're determined that, that
we're going to tell everybody what we think and, and that
we're right and, and, and so on.And if we can't, if we can't

(17:44):
form a sense of community withinthe people that are supposedly
awake and we can't learn, relearn how to listen, then then
of course we're going to feel isolated, as Charles says.
And that, that feeds the negativity.
So we've got a, we've got a, it all starts with ourselves.
We've got to recognise that societies and, and networks and

(18:05):
groups are made up of individuals.
And, and so, you know, it's not,it's not actually about
criticising, it's not even aboutcriticising the king or the
Prime Minister or what, whatever.
It's we've got to start with criticising ourselves and, and
recognising that this begins with us as individuals.
And and until we change ourselves and inside, we're not

(18:27):
going to change anything in in the so called real world.
What amplifies this whole thing is that that cue nonsense in
which the white hats are coming to save us so we can just sit
back and and wait, and they're going to do everything because
they're playing 5D chess. Yeah, we're going back to the
truth movement, whatever that's supposed to mean.
The, the, you know, people have to be a bit more discerning

(18:50):
about choosing, choosing those people, you know, Mike, talking
about forming communities. And I think it, you know, what's
been demonstrated over the last few years and increasingly so, I
would say, is that simply sharing a belief that you are

(19:13):
part of the truth movement and that you reject the sort of
mainstream narratives and this that and the other.
I mean, that that's not enough or indeed that that is not a,
that is not really a sort of worthy criteria.
I mean, people's character and outlook and ability to put
things to one side and and retain a sense of perspective

(19:35):
and actually get on and do things are really what matters.
And if you have, if you do have different beliefs on certain
things, but you are not going tofall out over them.
And you do, because I think ultimately, when we, if you step

(19:58):
back, you look at, look at what,what is it that motivates
people? And, and again, this came up
with Zubi talking about parts ofthe world that were considered
to be more dangerous. I think it was, he made the
point, which I thought was it was a very good one about the
reports you get. You know, if, if you anyone
who's ever heard anything about it doesn't really matter, but

(20:22):
you know, pick a place. If you haven't been there, then
the likelihood is you will have heard a.
AD report about it. You may have heard some some
good stuff because some you know, perhaps they hosted an
Olympic Games or something propaganda fest, but but mostly
you would have heard that something bad has happened
because that's how the that's how the news cycle works.
And yet when you go to that particular place, you think, all

(20:45):
right, OK, so the, the, whateverit was that the incident that I
saw on the news is not in fact happening on repeat the entire
time in this place. And, and, and there we go.
So you've got, you've got a situation in which by and large,
people are wanting to do positive things for reasons that

(21:07):
they believe are the right ones.And I think it's a, it's a
massive mistake just to think that because people have
different beliefs about the particular topic, that their,
their motivations and their goals are different from yours,
that they're ultimately they're not.
I mean, you know, if we look at the, again, going back to the,

(21:30):
the dreadful COVID years, the motivations by and large were
the same either side. People, people either chose to
do something or didn't choose todo something because they wanted
a particular outcome. And that was to do with
consideration for other people, you know, masks being such an

(21:51):
obvious one, the mask wearer would would have had the belief
that it was preventing other people from getting I'll,
whereas the non wearer of the mask did not want to prevent
prevent, you know, communicationand the feeling of human contact
or or whatever. I mean, you know, it's that
simple. But and yet on the on the face

(22:11):
of it, you've got people who appear to be doing stuff that is
completely different. Well, actually they're not.
They've just, I mean, I've said this before, they've just been
presented with or taken a different view on, on the
information they've been presented with.
The COVID era paradoxically has made me so much more positive
and solutions orientated about life.

(22:33):
Well, I, I think there's a reason for that, Jeremy.
I think it's, you know, there's my observation is that there's,
there's two. Well, let's just, let's just say
looking at things from a particular point of view,
there's two main types of peoplein the world.
There's people that produce stuff and there's people that
consume stuff. Now you're a producer because
you're producing this podcast and you're, you're taking an

(22:55):
active role in your life. For the majority of people,
that's it's, it's a different situation.
They sit on the sofa and they consume, They consume what the
mainstream media puts out. They consume food, they consume
drink, they consume YouTube videos and so on.
And they're, they're never actually producing anything.

(23:16):
And, and it, you know, this, this is, this is also feeding
feelings of negativity and feelings of uselessness and
feelings of no agency. And, you know, just just learn a
skill, do something different. Go to the gym, as you say.
And, and you know, these things aren't necessarily the easiest

(23:36):
steps to take. I'm not and I'm not in any way
criticising anybody. This is, this is just an
observation. And and I'm going to say, you
know, I put myself at the at thetop of the list for all these
comments that I'm making. But you know, that just just
taking that step of, of, of, of taking, of doing something

(23:56):
active in, in our lives changes our outlook.
Absolutely. It absolutely does.
And and I, I, well, I'm sure we can all think of people that,
that, that have done that in German likewise, you know, you,
I think the more, the more one considers it and, and dwells
upon it and make, you know, whenyou do make conscious efforts or

(24:18):
you do change, change those things, the benefits are so easy
to see and they and they, they have a sort of upward spiral
effect as well. I think that's the, that's the
other thing, you know, to, to begin to get out of the
situation of negativity has, hasincreasingly, I would say for

(24:39):
the most part has increasingly positive consequences.
It's not, it's, it's, it's not just sort of one step forward, 2
steps backwards. It certainly shouldn't be it,
you know, the, the, the start, the hardest part of course, is
the, is the start. But I think once that's once
that's made and once there's a recognition that some difference

(25:00):
has been made, some grounds beengained, then you know the the
rest of it in, in relative termsis sort of straightforward.
You just keep going. Bob Moran made a great comment.
I think I've mentioned this before.
He said that you must just treateverything as if it's theatre.
Yeah, I mean, I think absolutelyfor for those that, well, I

(25:22):
mean, you know, let's face it, for those things that don't
directly concern you if you're I, I, I don't remember him
saying that, but but I, I would imagine he's talking about
things that are sort of a bit more remote because that,
because that again, that's another yeah, we've we've talked
about that before as well. But if you, if you do just if

(25:43):
you switch all this stuff off, because let's face it, it is a
question of switching stuff on and off.
I mean, OK, sometimes people will go and sit in the in the
gallery in the in the House Commons or House of Lords or
whatever, or they will go to sort of public debate or this
that now. But by and large, we're
consuming all this stuff on a screen and it doesn't exist if
you turn screen off. So that that is absolutely

(26:06):
another part of it. And considering, you know,
separating the parts of your life that that are real and that
are happening because they are right there around and in front
of you. And those that bits that that
aren't the, the what other people are up to need not really

(26:27):
affect you in in any particular way.
It's that's, that's your choice.You know, yes, a lot of what we
talk about are changes to this, that and the other.
And I'm, I don't mean to suggestthat you can sort of you can put
yourself in a position with any great degree of ease, which

(26:49):
means that you won't be affectedby all of this.
And I think that's going back tosay the Zubi point.
I think some of the, I know thisis not particular to him.
I have no idea if, if he's susceptible to this.
I think some people, particularly who are sort of
prominent on social media, whatever can attract, let's say,

(27:14):
criticism because they appear tobe putting forward a sort of
what I, I've never been on Facebook, but what I would
describe as a Facebook lifestyle.
Like I couldn't understand the concept of Facebook because I,
I, my first sort of engagement with technology was on was email
and the, the reply all, like group reply all email, which was

(27:34):
always a joke, usually at somebody's expense.
And then suddenly I was being told about this thing called
Facebook where people just posted photographs and everyone
said, oh, lovely, How nice. And I, I really just, I didn't
get it at all. But but the point is that that
these days, the sort of the equivalent to that is people who
just put a lifestyle onto socialmedia that suggests that they

(27:58):
have absolutely no impediment toanything they want to do.
You know, they're always surrounded by sort of amazing
food and wine and sort of endless beaches and swimming
pools. And you just think, right, OK,
well, I'm not sure that's reallyvery relatable.
And, and I think that's why there can be some criticism
drawn. But, but I mean that that's, you

(28:20):
know, I'm, I'm using a sort of an extreme example.
Otherwise, if you are just talking about the things that
are around you in a more normal sense and suggesting that that
you can deal with those things, then then, you know, why does
the rest of it matter? I don't, I don't, I don't see
why it should. I mean, that's that's sort of
our failing if we let it. How do you feel after you've had

(28:43):
a conversation or you've spent time with a certain person?
So for example, I, I made a verydifficult decision during the
COVID era to kind of disconnect myself from from people who were
having a very sort of toxic effect on me.
I think it's essential and you know, we, we have the ability

(29:07):
to, to meet people and make friends and so on.
We absolutely have to be discerning about who we're
spending time with and decide whether it's healthy for us.
It's, it's no different to, to any other input, you know, in
terms of food or drink or the air we breathe or whatever the,
the lifestyle that we lead. It's absolutely a key part.

(29:30):
We are influenced by everything that's around us.
And of course we're influenced particularly by people that we
consider to be our peers. And if we have surrounded
ourselves with, with, with people that are that way, then
of course we're going to be thatway too.
It, it could be difficult to maybe change that.

(29:53):
Again, unfortunately, it all comes back to ourselves first
because, because we can't expectanybody else to get us out of
that mindset. We've got to, we've got to take
the decision that we're not going to think this way anymore
and then try to find other people that are also, you know,
not thinking that way. And and it's, you know, that

(30:15):
that that has to be where it starts.
That's always where it starts. And.
That's how you that's how you win battles.
By the way, Mike, it starts withyou.
Right. Absolutely no, no, I was just
going to say in a conversationalsense, I mean a conversation by
knowledge, we usually mean with one other person.
I, I guess not, not always, obviously this being an

(30:37):
exception, but the, the, the point is that I know, I know
exactly what you mean. You know, you can be in
conversations that appear to be depressing, but you shouldn't
forget that you are half of thatconversation.
And therefore you should have the ability to, to turn
manoeuvre that conversation or to or change the tone or the

(30:58):
tenor of it into a positive space.
So yes, you might find that thatthere are people presenting with
negativity, negative points, negative talking points,
whatever it is. And so it, I would say there's,
there's, you know, what have yougot to lose by trying to turn

(31:18):
that into a positive or at leastinto something more neutral.
Just trying to understand more about it and find out why it is
that such and such a thing is regarded as being negative.
And, you know, just just just toget to the bottom of of these
sorts of things. Because, yeah, I mean, what one
of course 1 gets presented with with these sorts of things all

(31:39):
the time. Or indeed just the, you know,
it's very sort of bizarre things.
I mean, I, I was at an event a couple of months ago where I
was, I have to say I was, I was totally bamboozled.
A lady came up to me and said she, she had driven to the event

(31:59):
on a road that I was familiar with and said, now what do you
think these things are on the side of the road?
They're sort of they're like rectangular, dark, rectangular
things with other stuff attachedto them.
So I said, do you mean the, the solar panels which are, you

(32:20):
know, attached to like roadside Rd works lights and, and, and
those sorts things? And turned out she did mean
that. And she did know that they were
solar panels. But her, her suggestion or
question was, do you think they are something else as well?
And I had never considered such a thing.

(32:42):
But it was clear that the reasonfor her question was because she
was, she was quite determined tobe fearful of these things,
which by the way, were absolutely, definitely solar
panels and just solar panels. But so the, you know, of course,
I could have perpetuated the fear that I was detecting or

(33:07):
not. And, and I chose not.
So we just had a, you know, we just had a matter of fact
conversation in which I wasn't dismissive, but, but I felt that
I would talk about it on a, you know, a slightly different
level. And, and hopefully the
conclusion of the conversation was, was that her point of view
about that was, was slightly better or less negative, less

(33:27):
fearful than it had been at the start.
So, so I think one always has the choice of whether to feed
and fuel that negativity that's presented to you or, or to try
to, to turn it or, or better understand it.
And I think once you do better, better understand it, whatever
it is that then you're, you're in a much more commanding
position to be able to influencethat conversation.

(33:50):
And hopefully that person, if they're, you know, if they're
struggling, because I think that's, that's the other thing.
I think we, you know, compassion.
Compassion. Yeah, a bit anyway.
Sorry. No, Charles, I think, I think
you're actually hitting the nailon the head there in a sense
because because there is no question that a lot of people in

(34:13):
the world, particularly since 2020 have been damaged by what
is going on around them. And you know, one of the, one of
the most flattering things that that was said about the column
over those COVID years was you kept us in well, that, that,
that was a nice side effect of what we were doing.

(34:36):
It wasn't, it wasn't something that we actually considered at
the time. That was just an effect of the
way that we were presenting the information perhaps.
But I think it's, I think it's something that, you know, is, it
would, is a really positive thing that we can all do is that
when we see somebody fearful about current events, that we

(34:58):
just take the time to help them through that and, and help them
recognise that, that, you know, first of all, nothing is
achieved by living in a state offear other than our own self
destruction. But, but just to try to put
things in a in a bit of context that helps them deal with, with

(35:19):
life and with the situation. So many people I hear now
saying, you know, I've just, I have just switched everything
off. I've switched the news off, I've
switched every all social media off.
I'm not interested in what's going on in the world.
Well, you know that that's fine.If that's what's needed at that
moment, then then do that. But of course that isn't going
to stop the, the events that aregoing on around us.

(35:42):
And it isn't going to, you know,at the end of the day, we, at
least I feel that I have a, a moral obligation to, to do what
I can, whatever little I can to help change the direction of, of
future events. And, and help is the keyword
because, you know, none of us asindividuals can, can do

(36:02):
everything or, or even anything massively significant.
It has to be a team effort. And so, and so, you know, but,
but, but it's, we've made this point over and over again during
this conversation. It starts with us as
individuals, but it's, it is without question also about

(36:23):
whether it's all about us as individuals or whether we're
prepared to, to help and, and, and helping isn't necessarily
just bludgeoning people over thehead with, with facts and, and,
and saying that they're wrong all the time.
Help, help might be actually helping people through their own
thought processes. And, and actually, I believe

(36:45):
that there are many, many more people that are reconsidering
their view of the world at the moment than we know about.
And if we, if we go in with a sledgehammer, we actually push
them back into the old mindset. And, and we've got to be gentle
with people, you know, and this,this is something that we've
been trying to, to encourage for, for many years.

(37:09):
But so think about it in those terms, I think would be would be
what I would encourage. It's a very, it's a very, very
important point, whether it's beliefs or actions, but they,
they have to be owned by the individual on the subject of
ownership. Because if that is not the case,
then that spells disaster when anything goes wrong.

(37:34):
Because if you, if you, let's say you, you convince somebody
of such and such a thing to be the case.
And they're, they're actually not necessarily ready to receive
that or ready to take it on board.
It's not, it's not so much theirdecision to have to have done
that or worse still, if it's a, if it's something that pertains

(37:55):
to an action or decision in their life and then it goes
wrong, of course not their fault.
It's your fault because you introduce the idea or you
introduce the advice that that that led them to take a
particular action. And, and you're absolutely
right. People have to be ready to
receive in in whatever situation.

(38:17):
I mean, I'd say people, you know, like, like, I'm different,
I'm exactly the same. We're all the same.
It, it just doesn't work the other way around.
And and we need to spend more time stopping and thinking about
that and putting the boot on theother foot just to go back one
anecdotally, yes, the sanity thing is absolutely critical.

(38:37):
And I do remember, I mean, I, I hope this is of interest, but
but I was prime. I mean, believe it or not, prior
to working for UK column, I was in the police.
I was, I was a detective and I can remember the height of the
sort of, you know, you must be mad if you're not having 25

(38:59):
vaccines a minute kind of period.
And thought I do just looking around at what did seem to be an
absolutely crazy society where this seemed to be the view
across the board. And I sat and said and this was
having having had no prior contact with the UK column at
all. And I'd said I, I said sat in it

(39:22):
was sort of late December 2021. It must have been I, I don't
think, I think I am temperamentally unsuited to work
for any other organisation. I mean, any, you know, any
organisation in the world. Like I just cannot see a single
outfit that I, that I would sortof belong in except for UK

(39:44):
column. And that's anyway that, that's
what I said and talking about this idea that, you know, you
have to believe something first before you can make it happen.
I mean, OK, I'm, that's that I, I don't mean that it's a bit of
a shoehorning exercise to, to explain.
That's why I'm here now. But the the.
The, the point of it was that was that absolutely the sanity

(40:05):
side of it was, was very, very critical.
And that was, you know, when I think back to my perspective
then to consider that UK column was offering that, that calm and
rational examination of what wasgoing on.
And I hope today still what is going on rather than the

(40:30):
explosive sort of sensationalistapproach to treatment of the
same subjects, which I don't think really does anybody any
favours, certainly not in the long term.
And then just another anecdote in terms of how, how much one

(40:50):
must persist. Germ, you will also be familiar
with this. But because obviously we've had
conversations about it. I've, I've explored to a certain
extent the, the way in which theChurch of England manages the
enormous amounts of money that it sits on.
And by coincidence, this year inback of February, the General
Synod, the the Bishop of Bath and Wells spoke out about the

(41:14):
one of the things I've touched on, which is how little money is
dispersed by the church commissioners to the churches
for their upkeep. And as somebody who's involved
with the with the church locally, I can tell you that
every single church in the country pretty much has some
sort of buildings related issue which is going to cost a
fortune. And everybody else is, you know,
the, the congregation by and I just asked to pay for it.

(41:35):
Anyway, long and boring story, but I, I'd, I'd written a couple
of articles for the column and I, and having seen that the,
the, the bath and Wells had had written about this and spoken
about it. I got in touch with him and
said, right, Matey, as well as what you're pointing out, are
you aware that that this is how the Church Commission runs its
runs the funds in the 1st place,you know, that they are able to

(41:57):
invest in pornography, weapons and and genomics and that kind
of thing. And remarkably, I mean, OK, he
replied, but he just said, he said, oh, well, you know, that
might be something you want to take up with the Church
Commissioners that you might want to take up with the Church
Commissioners. I mean, yeah, the fact that he
is a sitting Bishop in the Church of England and yet he

(42:17):
didn't want to have anything to do with it was extraordinary.
Anyway, I, I will obviously continue but but but you know,
so yes, we have to take these steps, but you but you do also
have to be prepared to be beatenback at every level, but you
keep going. What's the moral of the story?

(42:41):
What, that particular story or the general moral of the story?
I suppose that's they're probably 1 and the same.
Yeah, I'm just trying to think of something that that's not
going to sound too trite becauseremaining positive would be such

(43:01):
a sort of, you know, such an easy thing to say.
But I, but I, I mean, crikey, never, ever give up with
anything. And I think I say that as
somebody who's, who's had a majority of, of a lifetime of
bit of sort of, you know, being in a lot of situations where
practically speaking, the outlook is, is a bit bleak.

(43:26):
You know, the sort of stuck in the middle of nowhere with, umm,
armed with any paper clip or, you know, I mean, I, I, I'm
being a bit facetious, but, but the point is being in situations
where it appears that that all is lost and rather than thinking
all is lost, you think, right, OK, well, I've got this and I've
got that, which means that I canmake such and such a thing.

(43:50):
And do you, you basically look at every single situation in
terms of how are you going to get out of it?
How are you going to make the best of it rather than sitting
back and thinking right. Well, that's me done for, you
know, that was beyond my control.
I couldn't help that. So therefore I am helpless that
that is absolutely never, ever the case.

(44:13):
And, and I'm talking I, I, you know, I'm slightly figurative,
but, but I don't mean it figuratively.
I, I, I do mean it literally andI, and I really do mean it
mentally. And it, it all starts in the
mind. And if you don't have that in
your mind, then then you cannot,uh, translate any of this into,
into an effect. So, so hold it in your mind

(44:34):
always. And even if it means having to
have a, a brief period of, of stepping back and just
evaluating in order that you don't concede defeat, then do
that. Just just retain a sense of
perspective, but never ever losethat sense of being able to
overcome whatever is put in yourpath.

(44:55):
I would say that one of the things that we've got to do is
to be, is to take that step backand actually be a little bit
objective about the events that are going on around us.
We are looking at A, at a world which is, which seems on the
surface to be completely off itshead, completely insane and

(45:19):
completely out of control. And recognise that actually the
reason for that is because the people that are running this
planet are out of control. They're out of control because
they're not winning. They're out of control because
they're not achieving the goals that they've set for themselves.
They're out of control because they are, they're increasingly

(45:40):
desperate. And, you know, over the last 20
or 30 years, you just sit and watch people becoming Prime
Minister or becoming, taking on some kind of role of so called
authority. And, and they look one way when
they enter that job. And when they leave the job,

(46:00):
they look almost broken. They, they, they're grey haired
or their hairs falling out. They're certainly looking
significantly older. They're looking like they didn't
have any, that they've got no energy left.
We got to look at that, at that objectively and recognise that
these people are not enjoying themselves.
And, and, and, and, you know, I don't want to take pleasure from

(46:23):
that necessarily, but, but just to recognise that, that, that
this is the, the events are as they are because things are not
going well for, for the, the, the goals and the objectives of,
of, of some of these, these people and these organisations.
And so, uh, you know, even even at the darkest moments there,
there's a lot of if, if we can see the positivity that's in it,

(46:46):
there's a lot to be positive about.
And, and to recognise that that actually part of the reason that
they are feeling this way and that they are behaving this way
is because the COVID operation didn't work.
And, and there was enough opposition and enough resistance
to it and enough people just standing up saying rubbish.

(47:09):
We can see what you're doing that that they weren't able to
achieve all their goals. We're just going to keep doing
that and and and as Charles says, never give up because the
nothing is ever lost until we'redead.
So that's that would be my thoughts on that.
I think another way of packagingthe idea of positivity, which

(47:30):
has obviously been the undercurrent of this
conversation, is the metaphor ofthe white pool or just simply
being solutions orientated. It's it's really that simple.
I mean, if you aren't trying to solve the problems in your
personal life first, then you, then you're not being positive
you you're being somewhat destructive.

(47:51):
Yeah. But Chair, I'm just, let me,
just let me interject there for one second, because I think
what's really important is that because what you're saying is
absolutely right, but what we'veall got to make sure that we're
doing is, is not waiting for somebody else to do that for us.
100%, yes, 100%. But that's exactly where I was
going with that. You know, you got to start, as

(48:14):
we keep saying, start with you and then go outwards from there.
You cannot fix the Ukraine or Gaza situation.
You cannot. There's nothing you can do.
You cannot stop the, the, the BIS, you know, you cannot stop
the UN, but what you can do to stop the nonsense that's coming
directly into your personal lifeand into your family?

(48:37):
And then from there you can affect change within your
community. And then it it kind of goes out
from there. Yeah, and and sometimes we get
glimpses into how effective any of this is being specifically,
you know, and just refer to the to the COVID sort of overreach
and and cock up in terms of rolling out a plan.

(48:57):
OK, obviously it's vulnerable toall sorts of inaccuracies, one
would guess. But there's a there's a report
just published in The Lancet saying that vaccination rates
worldwide have declined very substantially since 2020.
And you know, and I don't say that thinking, oh, you know,

(49:20):
that's just great. People are, people are not
taking pharmaceutical products that might help them.
I'm saying that that's because people have actually stopped and
thought about it and considered that those products are not
going to help them. So it's, it's a, it's to be
really specific about it. It is a question of people
actually being aware of a particular plot, as it were,

(49:47):
and, and reacting against it. And, and that is now
demonstrated by these statistics, as I say, yes, OK,
with all statistics, one has to be very, very careful about how
you interpret them or whether you even give them any credence
in the 1st place. But but, but nonetheless, you
know, that is out there, that isit, that is a that is a pretty

(50:09):
substantial demonstration of exactly what you 2 have just
been talking about. Well, let's come in for the
landing. Looking at the time, final
thoughts, Mike? Good one.

(50:30):
What can I say? Mikes final thought.
I mean, it has sort of positive note to it.
I think the, the well, actually what would be nice is this time
next week we'll be able to talk about meeting people in person
because we're off, we're about to trundle off to an event in
the South England countryside inDorset, an event called Sounds

(50:54):
Beautiful, which we did go to last year.
It was really good fun. And, and, and this is where we
get to sort of test out this sort of stuff that we talk about
because we will be rubbing shoulders with all sorts of
people. And, and actually, I, I that
that really is the case because I remember last year and, you
know, this is not too surprising.

(51:14):
But in addition to people who had heard of sounds beautiful
from the likes of UK column or, or sort of all the channels that
they were tuned into, there werealso people just just who were
folk local to the event in Dorset and therefore had just
gone long because it was a, you know, it was an event and it had
interesting stands and, and music and talk and stuff.

(51:36):
So there will be a really good cross section of people there.
And, and, you know, it is up to us to make sure that the
interactions that we have and the experiences that people have
at that festival are overwhelmingly positive.
And that people do go away feeling lifted and feeling that
they can make those changes to their lives and to, you know,

(51:58):
engender the support of a community and, and to push on.
And, you know, this is in itselfan act of defiance, resistance,
call it what you like, because the the you know, don't forget,
these are these are precisely the things that the ill doers
want to shut down. They want to prevent these sorts

(52:19):
of things from happening. They want to prevent positive
association. So yeah, that that's for us.
That's our sort of look forward to is it is a weekend of seeing,
you know, just getting out thereand seeing people and being, you
know, actually in a in a really beautiful part of the world and
and making absolutely making themost of it.

(52:40):
And hopefully, hopefully the weather will be good.
But you know, just as a general point, anytime people get
together, doesn't matter whetherit's the UK column event or
sounds beautiful or they stand in the light or the the the
lights festival. Once these people, once people
are are together and feeling with others, it's always a

(53:05):
massively positive event. It's brilliant.
And and so you know, this, the theme of this discussion has
been it starts with ourselves, it starts with ourselves and it
starts with us getting out and, and off the sofa or off the
office chair or whatever it is. We sit, watch the computer
screen, switch the computer off and get out and actually have

(53:29):
some real human interaction. And it ends with the glorious
sounds of chickens in the background.
Well, I, I would hope so, yeah, absolutely.
For, for always. I mean, yeah, they're, but they,
you know, this is, it is a, it is a lovely, lovely thing to be
surrounded by. You know, and, and I don't mean

(53:49):
this as a sort of throwaway thing, but watching, watching
groups of animals of of all different species just just
crack on and do their thing is, is so inspiring, always
inspiring and amusing. You know, we frequently end up
with chickens in the house. I have, I have plenty coming in
here in in the office of the door open.

(54:10):
Luckily none has has destroyed any equipment yet, but it's only
a matter of time, presumably. So, yeah, you know, why not?
And yet, and yet we live in these bizarre sort of rigid
groupings or, or, or whatever. And we and, and, and to a large
extent we've forgotten about our, our natural instincts

(54:31):
towards, I would say positivity and, and cooperation.
So let's just get back to that.