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June 29, 2025 • 104 mins
James Sparks is a criminologist; he holds a Bachelor of Arts from Murray State University and a Master of Science in Criminal Justice from UAB. His academic focus and teaching responsibilities at UAB encompass specialized topics such as serial killers, serial killers in international contexts, and the juvenile justice system.

Although primarily serving as an instructor, Sparks applies a criminological lens to the study of violent crime and the intersection of psychology and criminal justice. His courses typically explore offender behavior patterns, developmental and systemic aspects of criminality (particularly in youth), and international comparisons of serial homicide. Through engaging students in these challenging subjects, Sparks contributes to the broader mission of preparing future criminal justice professionals and researchers.

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Episode Transcript

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Speaker 1 (00:15):
Good evening. My name is James Sparks. I've worked in
the criminal justice field for the past thirty years. I
also an adjunct professor where I teach serial homicide courses.
I've been working with juveniles probably for the past twenty
seven plus years, and I do that on a daily basis.

(00:36):
I'm married and I.

Speaker 2 (00:37):
Live in the South me too, I'm in Georgia.

Speaker 1 (00:46):
I'm one over from you.

Speaker 3 (00:48):
All right, So, James, today we'll skip the clown business
because I'm sure you get tired of talking about him,
if that's okay, sure, okay, So can we start out
with talking about Lucas and Tool and basically for those

(01:09):
that are listening that aren't familiar with their with their crimes,
which will be highly shocking if nobody is familiar with them,
can you basically just give like a brief summary on
their cases and uh talk about how you how you
got into meeting them, and then uh, instead of using
the m U R word, can you use the word
unliven because TikTok is dumb and and like will issue

(01:30):
bands and stuff or like not bands like the flags.
If you use the the word the one eighty seven word,
you know what I mean, yeah, okay, cool.

Speaker 1 (01:39):
I wasn't aware of that, so thanks for letting me know. Yeah.
Uh so, uh, Henry Lee Lucas and Audust Tool were
uh these team killed people that went around and I
guess uh committed crimes all over the United States and
they were known for primary primarily serial unliving people. And

(02:05):
something that stands out about those two is they would
use pretty much any means necessary that they had their disposal.
And what I mean by that is they would use
their car, they would use ropes, they would use knives,
they would use handguns, they would use basically anything that
was close to them, and they ran around the country

(02:29):
doing these sort of crimes. Otis was arrested first and
put in start Florida, and then Henry took off with
Ottis's niece ended up eventually getting arrested in Texas, primarily
after he unlived Ottis's niece. And then once he was

(02:51):
in custody, he made this sort of agreement with the
police officers and the rangers, and what they wanted to
do was sort of clear of the books. So Henry
was approached about clearing code cases, and what he did
was he started admitting that he was responsible for these crimes,

(03:17):
and as a result, they were able to clear cases.
But it was really one of those things that sort
of got a lot of But it was really one
of those things that sort of got a lot of
publicity towards the end because he was, in a sense
almost coached. There are stories out there where he was

(03:39):
asked about specific crimes and it was based of the
method that was used, and he would say one thing,
and then they would follow up, say are you sure
it wasn't something else, and he would follow up with
what they had recommended. And that's how books of how
cases started getting cleared pretty much came to a head

(04:02):
on one situation where he was asked how did he
he and Audis unlive this individual and the case actually
happened in Hawaii, and whenever they were waiting for Henry's response,
he said, Ottis and I drove there. And after that
was put out there, they pretty much knew that this
was all a bunch of sort of just taking credit protectively.

(04:25):
Didn't happen it.

Speaker 3 (04:28):
Right, I didn't realize. I didn't realize that about Hawaii.
That's kind of funny. It goes to show that their
intelligence level was not that high.

Speaker 1 (04:35):
Oh, absolutely absolutely, and you know they probably I think
Otis's IQ was probably maybe in the fifties and Henry's
wasn't much higher. Honestly, Henry in a sense was I
guess the odist was dominant in the relationship per se,

(04:56):
even though you wouldn't take it like that when you
see him. But yeah, he Henry sort of appeased Otis
and whatever he wanted to do. In all situations. Outus
was also piromaniac, you know, he was just starting fires,
and I think Henry just sort of went along where

(05:17):
they met up in Florida, and then they just decided
that they were going to go on this crime spree,
and that's what happened. Ultimately. What gets real interesting about
the case is, you know, they were separated. Ottus was
in Stark, he was at the prison there, and he
started getting sick, and I think he died from pneumonia

(05:39):
complications or liver or some sort of failure. There's all
kinds of suggestions as to what it really was, but
I don't think there's ever been any true release of
the actual cause of his passing. And then Henry was
in the state of Texas. Henry was there and he

(06:00):
was there. Of course, he you know, started corresponding with
the gall from Missouri and she ultimately became his girlfriend.
And that's sort of how I ended up with a
buddy of mine who was my writing partner at the time.
I ended up getting to visit Henry on death row.

Speaker 3 (06:23):
So what was visiting him like?

Speaker 1 (06:27):
Well, the time that we only got to visit him
one time, it was a lot of red tape at
the time, and then once we were allowed to visit,
we had to go to Huntsville to death Row. And
on the day that we were scheduled to visit, it
was supposed to be about a six hour visit, we
only got a two roughly two to three hours because
they were actually having an execution on that day. So

(06:51):
the prison was surrounded by just tons of news trucks.
Reporters were everywhere, and the warden at the time was
not very nice. Uh I guess, I don't know if
it was because of the situation was happening that day,
but he was very pushy and he tried to rush

(07:11):
along just the homes of use.

Speaker 3 (07:16):
Hmm, that's interesting. Did did the execution actually go through
that day? Did they can stay?

Speaker 1 (07:21):
No? That the person who was said to be executed.
It actually happened that evening.

Speaker 3 (07:25):
Yes, okay, okay, dang, that's crazy. I'm sure there were
tons of like anti death Tumbili activists and like pro
death Tumbili and stuff like that outside protesting.

Speaker 1 (07:35):
Yeah, you really didn't see too many anti uh you know,
protesters just because of the fact it was Texas, you know,
and back then, you know, it was they were having
quite a few uh you know, it's going back and
forth between Texas and Florida and California. And now that's
just you know, it's not as you don't hear as

(07:58):
much about it as you do as you did back then.
But you know, the problem that they run into now
is whether or not they can get the substances to
perform the lethal injections. And that's always been an issue.
Now I think you know about here in Alabama and
they started switching to different forms of different gases, which

(08:19):
you know, it's we don't hear much about it. When
they make the reports in the news. It's sort of
just like, you know, a blip of what happened during
the execution, but they really don't go any detail because
I think there's arguments of whether or not it's cruel
and unusual.

Speaker 3 (08:33):
Punishment, right right, It's it's still basically like like there's
still kind of like toying with it, right to see
if like it's effective or not while still using it.

Speaker 1 (08:42):
Right, yes, yes, And they really don't know because you know,
your your subject is not going to be around to
answer any questions about it, right right, you know that
I don't think they did enough research on it to
be honest with you.

Speaker 3 (08:59):
Right, right. So, speaking of Lucas and Tool, before we
talk about Walsh, I want to preface it with saying,
like a year ago, right, I got a letter I
purchased a letter of Henry Lucas's. It was one of his,
like i'd say it like two or three years maybe
less before he passed away. And in the letter it
says something like it mentions Tool and Walsh, and he

(09:21):
says I believed Tool unlived Walls due to what he
showed me at the time, you know. And I'm assuming
he's talking about like a corpse or photos or something
like that. So what are your thoughts on the Waalsh situation,
because I know they've claimed like Dahmer did it and
Tool and Lucas and you know, so many different other people. Like,

(09:41):
what are your thoughts on the Adam Walsh case in
regard to Lucas and tool.

Speaker 1 (09:46):
Yeah, I think that I actually list just removed Dahmer
from the host situation. I don't know where that story happened.
I don't think that it's accurate. I don't think that
it's something that you could go to the bank on.
I just think that, you know, whenever they started putting Damer,
I don't they started detaching dormant all these cases, you know,
some cases in Germany, some places other than you know, Wisconsin,

(10:07):
and then they said that he was in Florid at
the time. I just don't buy it. Now from what
understand and everything that I've ever read or researched, I
think that Henry and Odust were in Florida at the time.
And I do believe that autist was in that Cedar
store where that autist was in that Cedar store where
Adam was during the day that he disappeared with his father,

(10:29):
And I think it was the Suitizan Roebuck in Hollywood,
FLD at the time. And I think that Lucas has
you know, not only in letters but I think he's
He's mentioned it multiple times that Ottust was responsible for it.
You know, the book The Hand of Death was primarily
about Lucas Audist about the cult like activities if they
were involved in. And I remember when Outus was alive,

(10:49):
you know, when you would correspond with him. You know,
he used to put these little drawings in all the time,
and you know, in some instances he would put in
recipes for barbecue sauce for humans. So I think that
Outus is primarily responsible for that. It just makes more
sense when you start doing the lines, you know, from

(11:10):
when A to point B. And I think that Henry
got to the point where you know, he would go
in in hot and cold flashes. He would talk about
it one minute and then he would sort of deny
it the next. When we visited him that day, we
were talking just primarily about his relationship with his girlfriend

(11:30):
and all the things that they had done, because you know,
he had got his girlfriend to get a driver's license
and pretty much say that she was Becky Palell, the
person that he was responsible for killing. You know that
ultimately I aded one death row with the word socks,
and his girlfriend went and got all this stuff and

(11:51):
she basically passed all the light to detect her tests,
saying that she was Becky Powell when everyone knew it
was and I think that they were on television or something,
and some people that knew his girlfriend I grew up
in the same hometown and said, this is not that
keep hawvis is so and so, and which ultimately led
to you know, this whole scam being uncovered, I think,

(12:14):
which led to Montell Williams, and Montell Williams sort of
started talking about it, and then Henry sort of misassociated
himself from his girlfriend for a period because he realized
that that he was going to be, you know, coming
down on him. One thing that I clearly remember when
we're sitting in that visiting room and we were separated

(12:37):
from Henry in this situation that throw we were separated
by a wall, and Henry spoke to this glass that
had the wire immaced inside of it, whereas when I
used to visit the gacy, you know, we sat down
and basically a kitchen table together and set across from
each other. But whenever Henry started talking, we were talking
about his cases, and you know, he was very very

(13:01):
adamant that there was going to be some major news
released about his case, and we're life, you know, the
only thing that's going to be released about your case
is the fact that you know they're gonna put you
to death. And he said, no, no, he goes, you know,
I'm not responsible for any of these murders, and then
he started saying that, you know, he wasn't even responsible
for the death of his own mother, which you know,
and that's been clearly brought out years ago based on

(13:22):
the history and what happened with his mother, and you know,
his mother sort of the actions that she did and
his father, you know, I had to watch while she
would do things with other men and things like this,
and then everything that had been priorily documented about their case,
he denied it. And when we started talking to him
about specific cases, he would say, well, that didn't happen,

(13:44):
you know, there was no truth to that, or you know,
I was just going along with what they wanted me
to say about the homicides. But the one thing that
really stink sticks out in that situation is he goes,
you know, there's gonna be some news about my case
come out, and we just started probe and hearory of us, like,
what are you talking about? What are you talking about?
He goes, I just can't talk about it right now,

(14:05):
but there's gonna be some major news coming out by
my case. And it was probably four or five months
after we had to visit sure enough, was when Bush
commuted his sentence and took him off death row because
the Orange Sox case and said that the information was
not accurate and valid. And he knew whenever we visited
him that day that he was going to be taken
off death row. Of course, you know, he's put in

(14:25):
general population and you know, whether he lived a year
or two after that and then he had the massive
heart attack or passed away. But Lucas was already aware
of what was going to happen in the case, and
he knew that the State of Texas was not going
to execute it. And I found that, you know, you know,
who was very very just sort of just a con

(14:47):
was able to get the court and even the governor
of the state of Texas at the time to ruin
his favor. And that just blows my mind.

Speaker 3 (14:57):
Yeah, that is that is really crazy to me. You
visited did you visit toul As well, or did you
just visit Lucas and just speak just Lucas. Okay, Okay,
you know who Mark Saffrick is, right.

Speaker 1 (15:10):
I don't know if I'm aware of that person.

Speaker 3 (15:12):
He was so long story short, he worked for Quantico Virginia.
He was a profiler for the Bau. He's like depicted
in mind Hunter and whatnot.

Speaker 1 (15:20):
Long story.

Speaker 3 (15:21):
I interviewed him a few weeks ago and I asked him, like,
who's the creepiest person you've ever interviewed, because he's interviewed
like Rifkin, I mean anybody and everybody that was a
name back then from the quote unquote Golden Age. But
he was like, you know, I wasn't scared of him.
I'm six six, two hundred eighty five pounds. But he's like,
we brought a we brought a peppermint candy to you know,

(15:43):
like a peppermint you know, like a icicle or whatever,
you know, to to tool. And he said the whole
time that they were visiting him, like he was putting
it in his mouth and like you know, putting it
in and out and trying to make them uncomfortable.

Speaker 1 (15:54):
And he just he.

Speaker 3 (15:55):
Said, like that was that was one of the weirdst
visits he's ever had, and in regard to like Tool,
just trying to like get a reaction out of them
and everything. And I was just curious if you ever
visited him, because that's the only person I know that's
ever visited him. And I'm like, man, I wish I
could see some some recorded you know, interviews like from that,
because too what was just I feel like him and
him and Lucas where you're where you're where your average

(16:19):
like quote unquote backwoods hill billy you know, Cereal and libraries,
like like back then, that's what they probably thought serial
and a liver was, you know, like just uneducated, dumb,
you know, just dirty. But nowadays they're completely different. They're
they're not as dumb, and they're more like obviously they
got to be smarter with DNA technology and cameras and

(16:39):
all that good stuff.

Speaker 1 (16:40):
You know. Oh absolutely, we didn't have the technology back
then that we do today. Now. There are a few,
uh interviews out with Lucas. I'm sorry with Tool. I
think that there's one on there's a DHS that is

(17:00):
from the eighties and it's called what use the d
word Diploma and it's a UK tape and there is
an interview with Otis on that and then I believe
it was a current affair. Years ago, the reporter by

(17:21):
the name of Steve Dunlevy, the British reporter, actually interviewed
Tool at Stark and if you can find that, you
could probably find it on YouTube if you search s
deeping Up. And it's a great, great interview where he
starts talking to Artist and just starts talking to him
about things and he's like, I just understand that you're
a powomaniac and you'd like to set fires, and Tools

(17:44):
responded back to him he goes, yes, Yes, I'm a
powerful maniac. And you know, it's just sort of funny
because you sit there and ben Levy say in pyomaniac
and just keeps responding by, yes, I'm a powerful maniac.
I'm a powerful maniac. And then there's a a guy
that grew up with Artis who was a hairdresser in
the town and he would just talk about how Artist

(18:05):
would dress up in dresses, and you know, just he wasn't,
you know, bothering, He wasn't you know, bothering anybody. But
he was just very timid when he was younger, So
There is some footage out there, but it's very very limited.

Speaker 3 (18:21):
Right, I think I think I've seen snippets of interviews
with Toole and he definitely, uh had the creep factor
for sure.

Speaker 1 (18:29):
Absolutely absolutely. It's just those and those teeth and the
wide forehead. And you know, Ottis was a pretty big
guy too. Yeah, he was a pretty good sized guy.
So until he got the crrosis and you know, while
he was in prison, he just started emaciating away, right. Yeah,

(18:50):
he at one time was a pretty good sized fellow.

Speaker 3 (18:53):
Yeah, that's crazy that I didn't realize he was. He
was a big dude at all. Amy, Do you have
any questions before we talk about juvenile justice?

Speaker 2 (19:02):
Do we believe their stories about how many people were claimed.

Speaker 1 (19:06):
To be victims? Oh? I would say no, because you know,
at one point it was you know, between five hundred
and seven hundred people, and there's no way that they
could have you know, committed that many crimes just based
on even if they were just traveling up and down
the road and hitting people with the cars, there's still
no way that they could have massed that number and

(19:29):
not got caught, you know. And I think that that's
another thing that sort of led this credit to their
case because they just started, uh, and it was it
was Henry, you know, just taking taking credit for everything.
And I don't know if he was promised something that
we never heard about, or if he wanted just to
be the the new kid on the block with the

(19:49):
highest total, you know. But no, there's no way those
numbers are accurate at all.

Speaker 4 (19:55):
You know.

Speaker 3 (19:56):
When I was visiting pild Yablonski, he gave me vibes
of like two of them, because of course I was
I was too young to ever even know the case
or they were they passed away, I think before I
was even born. But Jablonski was like that, I don't
give a crap attitude like he he was just like
dirty and nasty, and he reminded me of other like crimes. Obviously,
I think their crimes were more brutal than Dablonsky, but

(20:18):
they were like two peas in a pod when it
came to like just there they're like lifestyle and the
way they spoke and the way they like viewed their
victims and stuff, and like Dablonsky was a rare breed
too of evil, if you want to say evil.

Speaker 1 (20:34):
And Lucas based on you know, some of the letters
I've got from him, and some things he goes into detail.
It's almost like you're sitting down at the table with
this guy. Because the descriptions about certain the demology or
you know, crimes that were committed were just too too
dead on. You know, it's almost like you can when

(20:57):
you're reading a letter, you can literally picture visuals everything
that's going on, right right, Yeah, Yeah.

Speaker 3 (21:05):
Phil was definitely not shy about talking about his case.
And when I was visiting him, he kept dropping racial
slurs and I was to the left and right of
me where there were African American inmates, and I'm like, Phil,
need to stop. You know, I'm gonna end up getting
jumped when I go in the parking lot or something.
And he just he just would be laughing. He'd be like, Oh,
it'll be fine. I know these guys they're harmless and

(21:27):
like they're on death row, you know.

Speaker 1 (21:32):
But you know, Phil was just a different kind of
you know Phil basically, you know, you know the history
of the case. You know, he didn't he end up
marrying one of his pinpals and then got out and
murdered her or you know, and allowed her and her mother, yep, yep.

Speaker 3 (21:51):
And I believe it was his mother right that he
carved I Love Jesus into her back. Yes, yeah, he
would always talk about that, and he would always send
me drawings, unsolicited drawings of I Love Jesus, and he
would he'd laugh and be like, you know, I sent you.
I sent you a drawing it related to my case.
And he would He would also send me like paintings,

(22:13):
like his snake skin belt, because I guess he was
wearing that at the time of his crimes too, and
he was. He was always obsessed with that snake skin belt.
He's like, when I die, you try to contact the
police department and get that, and like, okay, pill.

Speaker 1 (22:27):
Yeah, he You know, I can go through some of
his letters today and I'm like, oh my god, you
know how many of these things are actually accurate. But
the only thing it's it's almost like reading a Jablonsky
letter and leading reading like a David Gore letter, and
there's just too much information in there just to this discounting,

(22:49):
because it's just so detailed. And you know, Phiel wasn't
that bribe either, but and Gore wasn't either. But when
you start readinesses. It's like, there's got to be some
legitimacy to this because it's just too accurate. And that's
the one thing that always disturbed me about Jablonski letters.

(23:12):
And he would and Gore was the same way. They
would answer, you know, anything that you ask, whereas some,
you know, especially when you're thinking about California, some of
the cereals out there, you know, they don't want to
talk about their case. They didn't want to talk about
their case, but they want to talk about other cases,
which I always always have always found amazing as well.

(23:35):
And there are several cases in California that never received
the attention that they should have based on the type
of victim that they had, the means that they committed,
and just the heinousness of the case. You know, think

(23:55):
about that when you think about Kearney's case. Why isn't
there more information about that case? Right? Right?

Speaker 3 (24:02):
And I feel like there was so many of them
at the time, like seventies, eighties, and nineties, that it
was probably so hard for the media to keep up
with every single one of them. Like of course, Bittaker
and Norris were probably one of the most televised at
their time, probably just because the brutality of their case
and like the courtroom footage of them going outside and
throwing up after listening to the tapes, you know, like

(24:24):
there's there's just so many, like you said, like there's
Craft Bittaker, Norris, Billy Mansfield, I mean, Doug Clark, Carroll Bunny.
The list goes on and on and on, and I'm
sure the media was like overwhelmed at the time with
covering all these cereal you know, unliven cases because there
was just so many of them, like they call they
call California like the honeypot when it comes to cereal Otahiber's,

(24:45):
you know, because there's just like take your pick of
you know who's who.

Speaker 1 (24:48):
You know. Yeah, And I occasionally I'll go down and
I'll pull some of the Bittaker transcripts because I've got
pretty much the whole volumes. She had like twenty one
to twenty two volumes of of court documents, autopsy reports,
and everything related to that case. And it's when i
go through it, I'm just like, oh my lord, this

(25:10):
is this is this is really sickening. This is really bad.
You know, not only tape, I've got the transcript of
the tape as well, and uh, you know which tape
I'm referring to.

Speaker 3 (25:19):
But right, I've read some of it. I can't I
can't read much of it because it's I'm squeamish, believe
it or not, you know, And like i've read some
of it, I'm just like, man, I I can't even
read this. I can't imagine listening to the tape. I'd
probably have nightmares.

Speaker 1 (25:33):
That's why I would. I would just take stops and
U and quit reading it. And I have to take
those in small doses because I didn't realize how just
horrible and evil those two were, and it's clearly within
those documents. You know, It's just man, it's it's amazing.
I think though, that, you know, two people like that

(25:54):
couldn't get away with what they did. These days, I
think technology and law enforcement and everything is just so
much better than what it was back when.

Speaker 3 (26:05):
Right, you know what's funny, As I was, I visited
Chester Turner the South Side Slayer, a month before Betaker
passed away, and I was in a cage with Turner,
and right to my right was Bittaker, and they were
having a conversation and they're like talking about nicknames, and
Turner's like, my nickname is too too. What's your nickname?
And then Larry looks around real quietly and he's like,

(26:25):
they can call me Plyers. And then he led out
like a little laugh, and I was like the hair
on the back of my neck stood up, and I'm
just like, oh my god.

Speaker 1 (26:34):
And let me tell you that was one of the
things that actually in these court documents, there's a section
and they actually pulled and of course it's copies of it,
and that's I'm thankful to have this, but there's actually
a couple of pages where Larry was signing autographs and
there was actually that copies of that that he did

(26:57):
further and makes me he says Prior's bteker in his handwriting.
And when I seen that, it was just so eerie.
I was like, all that stuff was true, because you
know sometimes that stuff are you know, the things about
the case are sensationalized. And that's what I always thought
about that until I actually, you know, was skimming through
it and I was like, oh, that wasn't made up.
That was true, And that's what I needs. You that

(27:18):
punch when you see something like that.

Speaker 3 (27:20):
Yeah, I've seen a few of those signatures out there,
and I'm just like, oh my god, that's that's crazy.

Speaker 1 (27:25):
Like he did.

Speaker 3 (27:26):
He just didn't care up until the day he died.
Like getting same with Norris too.

Speaker 1 (27:30):
Norris.

Speaker 3 (27:30):
Norris claims he had some remorse, but I don't think
he did. I think he was just trying to get out.
And they were two peas in a pod. They were
both you know, serial s a ors, you know, and
on top of that serial and libras at that too.
You know, like they were the two worst people that
could have ever met met each other and like had
fun doing what they did, which is insane to think about.

Speaker 1 (27:55):
Oh absolutely, And I think that there. I think that
Norris had so many people full but I think he was,
you know, just as bad as Vittaker. And again, you know,
Roy was a big guy too and very dominant and
a lovable puppy, and that Vittaker did everything. But I

(28:15):
don't think that's the case because when you think about it,
you know, you know, you know what Norris went to
prison for to begin with. You know, that's that's something
that people don't think about. They just hear about. Bittakar
inquires Vittercer and this and that, but you got to
go past that, you got to go back to the
original sort of crimes. And if you look at Norris,
there are a lot more heinousness with him than what

(28:38):
there is with h. Vittaker. And I'm not trying to
make excuses for Biker because he was just as bad.
But I think that sometimes Norris gets an easy way
out and it shouldn't.

Speaker 3 (28:49):
Oh yeah, yeah he was. I think he was seen
as more like the less dominant, more like submissive one.
But I think they they both got off on it.
Norris just Norris gets the easy way out because he
unintentionally told on both of them, like he got tricked
by law enforcement. And I think that's why people are like, oh,
well he was at least he at least he admitted it,

(29:10):
and you know, like he didn't he unintentionally admitted it
because he thought that Vittaker was turning against him at first,
you know.

Speaker 1 (29:18):
Oh absolutely, and it was just he's going to strike first.

Speaker 3 (29:22):
Right, right. So when it comes to juvenile justice, what well,
first of all, like how did you get into juvenile justice?
And second, like what did you ever handle any type
of like were they just like you know, like misdemeanor cases,
there were any like violent cases to where like cause
I know you're old enough to where like back then

(29:42):
they were they were sentencing juveniles, you know, to the
to the death penalty. And I'm curious if you've ever
had any clients that were that like our former like
you know, death row inmates or like lifers, you know,
juvenile lifeers.

Speaker 1 (29:57):
I know, because in our state, basically if they weren't
transferred to the adult system, you know, then they would
be you know, sent to a juvenile institution until the
twenty one years of age, and then you know, after
that they would be released to their parent or the custodian.
At the time, you know, Alabama did not have anything
where you know, some states, once a juvenile is sentenced

(30:20):
for you know, un aliven per se, then they'll go
do juvenile time and then once they turn adult, they
be transferred to the adult system. And that's not the
case here. That's not to say that I haven't run
into some bad kids along the way a half, but
I think that the juvenile justice system was in need
of reform a long time ago. And it's just like

(30:41):
you know, we always go from very liberal to a
very just harsh, intense treatment for juveniles. The one thing
that people I don't realize is that they're kids. And
I'm not trying to say that they get to pass,
because there are some really bad kids out there, you know,
and probably deserve to be is and by some of
the acts that are committeed, you know. But I don't

(31:06):
think that there was a big emphasis put on juvenile
justice at the time, just because it was sort of
one of those things where what happened was there was
sort of, like I guess, a period where JULYI crime
started getting more heinous, and you know, we weren't just

(31:27):
looking at truancy or you know, status offenses, offenses that
you know that work. If they were committed by adults,
there wouldn't be any criminal prosecution. And the end, I
think that there's all kinds of other indicators that sort
of you have to look at. You have to look
at environments, you have to look at nature versus nurturing,

(31:51):
you have to look at opportunities. There's just a whole
lot of things in regards to the juvenile justice that
people don't think about because you know, there's a limitation
on what you can do with the juvenile unless they
get transferred to the adult system, and each state has

(32:11):
their own, I guess sort of requirements, you know. I
think if you think about someone that you've interviewed before,
Todd Colheath, when you look at him, you know, he
was what fourteen years old and got put in the
adult adult institution at that age, and in a situation
like that, I don't think that he was given the

(32:35):
proper sentence. And I think that being put in that
system that he was so young probably helped create what
we've seen later, because if you remember about his case
and you go back and you remember some of the
reports that were done on him, I don't think that
they recommended that he go to the adult system, And

(32:59):
I think the judge the time overruled and when it
had and put him in the adult system. And it's
one of those things should have, could have, would have
if he hadn't have been put in the adult system,
would that have stopped what he became? You know, it's
almost like looking at from this sort of another case,
completely opposite, And I know, you know, we weren't going

(33:19):
to talk about the clown to think about this. When
Gaysey was arrested for signing on the minor in Animosa
and you know, the late sixties, you know, he really
received a ten year sentence. Now, had Gaysey completed that
entire sentence, do you realize that he would have been

(33:42):
out in December of nineteen seventy eight. Had he been
released when he was supposed to, there's a possibility that
thirty three of those murders would have never happened because
he would have actually got out of prison at the
time he was arrested for the thirty three homicides.

Speaker 3 (34:02):
Well, that's crazy to even think about.

Speaker 1 (34:09):
You get a ten year sentence and you only do
eighteen months and like thirty three victims. Do you know
how many people that effects? Because we're not just talking
about victims and let's just do thirty three that we
know of, but we know that there's probably more, and
you know, I would go to the bank on that,

(34:32):
and you know, think about family members and with thirty
three people, you know, you could literally be talking about
hundreds of people that those crimes affected, if not more
thousands maybe, And then there's a flip side of that,
and a lot of times people don't think about fasts.

(34:52):
You've also got to think about his family, how they
were affected that pretty much shut down their life. They
couldn't go anywhere without saying, oh, you must have known
about this and what have you. And it's sort of
like a two age sword when you start thinking about
different crimes and what happens. And I know we've got
to sort out off subject. But it's one of those

(35:12):
things that you know, if it's it's like sometimes there
needs to be an overhaul of the system, and it's
sometimes not that easy.

Speaker 3 (35:23):
Right right, speaking about juveniles being be going to prison
and whatnot, what are your thoughts And I know it's
like a case by case basis and like crime and whatnot,
but what do you what are your thoughts on jus
basis and like crime and whatnot, But what do you
what are your thoughts on juveniles being certified as adults, say,

(35:43):
like uh, Michael carneil Sean Sellers who actually got the
death penalty and was executed and like other juvenile offenders.
Do you think that some should be certified as adults
or do you think all should be certified as adults
based on like you know, like capital cases, is there
like first second degree so on and so forth.

Speaker 1 (36:03):
I think it's based on the situation and the type
of case that you're talking about and the type of crime. Generally,
when we're talking about transferred to the adult system, we're
talking about you know, unallotted. Some states like Alabama, you know,
we have a sort of a system in place where
there's got to be certain requirements meant before they can

(36:25):
be transferred. And you know, it's up to the juvenile judge.
But you know, there's reports that are done. There's you know,
mental health reports, psychological reports. Sometimes there are even forensic
evaluations there. You look at previous history, what sort of
if they do have history, is there been anything that's

(36:46):
been provided to them, any services, you know, those sort
of things. And I don't think every state is like that,
but I think that if you're going to transfer a
kid to the adult system, I think when you need
to make sure that we've pretty much looked at as
far as rehabilitation. And that's why, you know, people talk

(37:07):
about the death penalty, and I'm not opposed to the
death country, but I think if you're going to sendence
someone to death, I think that they need the absolute
best sort of defense that they can receive. Give them
what they need to make sure, because you're talking about
something that that ends them. But I don't think that

(37:29):
every state when it comes to juvenile I have parameters.
I think it's probably there's well let me back up,
there's probably something in place, But I don't think that
it should be automatic. I honestly don't you know. I
don't think that, you know, like a fourteen fifteen year old, Oh,

(37:49):
we're automatically going to transfer them. I think that there
needs to be something in place and examinations conduct and
just make sure that we're not making a mistakes, make
sure that there's not any mental illness, mental health issues,
things like that, because you know, there's an argument going
around that, you know, there's the kids or kids that
everyone's on so much medicine. How do we know that,

(38:11):
How does it affect them, How does it affect their thinking,
how does it affect their brain? How does it just
does it do any damage to them? And you know,
I think that we need to sort of focus on
the things that we can sort of make right before
we make that ultimate decision. Because if you're talking to

(38:33):
an adult and you know, maybe talking about a DP case,
then that's serious and that's that's the end of it,
you know, right right.

Speaker 3 (38:45):
I The thing that bothers me about juveniles being certified
as adults. There's a case in Wisconsin. I don't know
if you're familiar with eric Haynestock. Her name is actually
Erica Haynestock now, but she was a she was a
school you know, she she would she went to the
school with a how do you say pew pew, you know,
and unlived her principle. And I've been trying to get

(39:08):
an interview with her for a few years now. She
claims that she was being abused by the principal. But anyhow,
I think she was sixteen, either fifteen or sixteen, and
they were before they turned eighteen. They went to prison,
and they said, they told me the very first day
they got to prison, they were essayed and that happened
quite a bit, and they had to fight to literally

(39:29):
protect and quite a bit. And they had to fight
to literally protect their what's the word like at the time,
like manhood, you know, because it was multiple people, you know.
And that's what bothers me the most is how are
you gonna put somebody under eighteen years old with a
bunch of offenders that literally do that to grown men

(39:52):
and grown women. When a child, when a teenager can't
even hardly defend themselves, Like, that's what bothers me the
most is no matter what they've done, you know, put
them with other juvenile offenders or you know, fifteen to
twenty one year old or something like that, not with
grown men that are like literally like oh, fresh meat.
You know that that kind of bothers me, regardless of

(40:12):
what people think of, you know, what somebody has done,
whether it's the most heinous crime or you know, just
a non violent crime whatever.

Speaker 1 (40:19):
You know, Yeah, I think that there's reason they need
to be housed with individuals their own age, because they're
not used to that environment. They don't know the rules
per se, and it's you know, they're sitting ducks and
you know, like you said, it's fresh meat coming into
the the joint, and you know, that's that's just something

(40:46):
that probably could be avoided. But I think that when
you think about it, people say, well, they shouldn't committed
the crime, this is what they got, and let's move forward.
And I think that that's where we are a lot
of times, you know, with all the taults, we still
probably had the best justice system in the entire world.

(41:07):
But there's things that need to be changed, and I
would hope that there would be more people in favor
of that than not in favor of that, because you kids,
you know, just like I mentioned before, cop had no
idea what he was in store for him, you know,
fourteen years old going to what Arizona State Prison. He

(41:27):
had no idea what was going to happen to him.
And who knows, you know, he really don't talk about
it a lot. Who knows what happened to him while
he was there? Right right?

Speaker 3 (41:39):
Yeah, I've he's I've always wondered if anything did happen
to him and it and it kind of changed the
trajectory of his life, know whether he was like assaulted
or had to do things for a gang or whatever.
You know, because he was so young. I mean, you're
not going to say no to somebody telling you to
do something in prison, otherwise you're going to be taking

(41:59):
advantage like daily by multiple people. You know, at least
that's that's what a lot of juvenile offenders have told me,
Like they had to piece up or they had to
become the quote unquote snatch to get on the good
side of the guard. So they would you know, protect
them and whatnot. It's it's you know, a crazy, crazy
world in there when it comes to politics, especially when
you're a juvenile offender.

Speaker 1 (42:20):
Oh absolutely, And I think it's probably just going to
get worse because I think that, you know, like I
said the pinion on swings and I think right now
there's probably more of a you know, tough on crime
sort of stance in the country. So there's no tilling
what you'll actually say when it comes to fingers like
that or states trying to change something, you know, but
you know, the Supreme Court hasn't act to certain laws

(42:43):
where you know, jumile cannot be executed at a certain age.
So that's that's that's good that you know that's in place.
But still I couldn't imagine being a fourteen or fifteen
year old being sent away for something that happened in
getting a live sentence. You know, that's a long time.

Speaker 3 (43:03):
Right right, Yeah, especially when you're like thirteen, fourteen, fifteen
at the time. I mean I know that you know,
you have to you have to do your time, and
you have to be you know, punished for what you've done.
I mean certainly, like like look at ed temper. Like
you know, if you would have been locked up for life,
there would have been a lot of lives saved, kind
of like you said with Gaycy. But he manipulated the
system and manipulated his therapist and psychiatrists and all that

(43:26):
and got out and unlived what like eleven twelve, thirteen
people after his grandparents.

Speaker 1 (43:32):
Yeah, he was actually helping whenever he was, you know,
in the juvenile facility, he was actually helping them administer
the test for other individuals. He had them all for. Yeah,
you know, so they were letting him griper he was
whenever he had to go to his first visit, you know,
after he was out of the juvenile institution, you know
sort of started seeing an adult probation officer. You know,
he went to go check in, and he had you know,

(43:55):
his victims one of the you know, body parts in
the trunk, body parts in the trunk on the day
that he had to go check in. So, uh, you know,
he had everybody fooled and did it for years, right.

Speaker 3 (44:14):
Yeah, Temper is definitely a phenomenon when it comes to
tastes like his, and I mean he was he was
probably just as smart, if not smarter than Bittakar because
he has like a genius I cut, doesn't he?

Speaker 1 (44:27):
Oh? Yeah, absolutely? And you know, yeah, Vittaker was up there,
John was up there pretty high. And you know, you
still can't forget the number one. You know, when it's
all said and done, I still think that Bundy is
you know, patient zero, because we could have learned more
about Bundy had they taken the time to study. And
I understand that he had to you know, pay for

(44:48):
his crimes, but I think that for more to understand,
you know, before that that last night, you know, he
offered to provide more information for other you know, burial
sites and what have you. And I was like, no,
you know, there's not going to be a state. We're
going to go ahead and go forward. And I just

(45:09):
you know, I always wondered and I've always thought about,
you know, what could we have learned had they spent
the time and put the right people in and you know,
just learned about Ted. And you know, there's something that
he said about you know, Ted, because I think you know,
during the time that he was in the start, I

(45:30):
think Bob Kevil flew down from Washington State to actually
meet with Ted because they had met each other in
Washington State and mister kepl went down and sort of
got some input from Ted about doing a profile on
Green River. So you know, he knew what he was

(45:50):
talking about, because I think that that ultimately some of
the stuff that he told mister Keppel will helped him
as far as you know, eventually tracked down, right.

Speaker 3 (46:02):
I've always been curious if he did that out of
the goodness of his heart or if he was just
jealous and wanted to help catch him to be in
the spotlight again. I've always wondered what his intentions were there.

Speaker 1 (46:12):
I always thought that it was going to help him
on the back end that if he helped him that
I think that they. I think that he thought that
he may have had the opportunity for a stay. That's
what I think because at that time, you know, I
think that Ridgeway had already bypassed Bundy. Well, we never know,
you know, I've heard that Bundy was in the hundreds,

(46:32):
so he wouldn't have pop pass him there, but you
know he'd already bypassed Gaysy and you know Gaysy.

Speaker 3 (46:38):
Location right right. Something funny about you know Bundy, Well,
not funny but ironic. But you know, Bundy was helping
the FBI or whatever. I did an interview with doctor
Ann Burgess and when before Coburger was arrested, right, Apparently
Kemper was interested in the case and wanted some details,
like he wanted details, but he didn't want bias details.

(46:59):
So I guess he has been talking to some journalists
for quite some time and him and Kemper, and I
guess Kemper was given his thoughts on the I had
a four case which I thought was super fascinating. And
you know, like I only learned that when iinated, and
not many people even know that, you know, like I
only learned that when I when I did my interview

(47:19):
with doctor Burgess, and I was like, wow, that's crazy.
Like Kemper still is still like actively trying to help
law enforcement, like you know, soft case. Maybe it's like
his conscience or you know whatever. Like I just I
just find that fascinating that Kemper even cares still to
this day to involve himself with that, whether it's ego

(47:40):
or just fascination, you know whatever.

Speaker 1 (47:43):
You know, Oh, absolutely, I thought that very interesting kind
of a situation like that, because it still shows that
he's sort of in tune with what's going on, and
it may be just the logistics of the case. What
are they doing now as opposed to what he did,
because you know, he's he's probably studying every individual that
is classified just like him. Supposedly. I think in nineteen

(48:07):
eighty five at Quantico there was actually a live feed
with Kemper and Gacy where they were talking to agents.
But you know, I think that that's probably what I
understand the property of the FBI and will never see
that tape or it's never been released. The property of
the FBI, and will never see that tape or it's
never been released.

Speaker 3 (48:28):
Right, Yeah, it's probably classified. That would be that would
be amazing to see. If yeah, if that is true,
that would that would that would definitely uh break records
when it came to like views and that could be
a Netflix in itself. Oh absolutely, yeah, yeah, Jules, Yeah, yeah,

(48:49):
that is yeah, that is right. Yeah, I did a
That's what doctor Amberg has told me when I had
my interview with her, like a year ago or six
months ago, I don't know, something like that. It was
it was before Cobert was arrested, before they even knew
that he was a suspect and the Livians. So to
round us out today, can we talk about your serial

(49:12):
homicide class and what that's all about. I know in
the past you and I have done you know, like
live phone calls with your class, and the most probably
notable person was Otto Smith that I that your class
probably thought was a freaking who and just crazy, you know.

(49:34):
But can you talk about your cereal homicide class and
like what that's all about and what the curriculum is,
you know, like based on and whatnot.

Speaker 1 (49:43):
Sure, I still I've been teaching the class for about
twenty years now. I actually take a part one part two.
The part one is sort of the American version of
SK's and then part two we you know, we go
across the pond talk about some of those individuals. Really,

(50:03):
it's one of those upper level classes. It's a four
hundred level class, so it's geared towards upper classmen. But
it's just sort of a I guess, if you will,
just a sort of formulation of case studies about various SK's,
like I said, from an American standpoint and then from

(50:26):
a UK standpoint, and we go into just pretty much
a to z. We go into childhood, we go into
sort of the methodology, we go into m we go
into victimology, we go into the arrest process, what happens,
how they were called, and then you know, we sort

(50:49):
of close out with what is the end result. So
generally what I do now is it's a pretty popular class.
So each one class back in the traditional classrooms, and
I'll go be going back and fall, and then usually
in the spring, I do online and I usually have

(51:12):
whether it's when it's online, I usually have eighty five
to ninety you know, students, And now that I'm going
back in the classroom, they've raised my population to I
think seventy five, so the classes full. It's always a
big class and I actually prefer the traditional classroom setting

(51:37):
because that allows the students to ask questions and we
can sort of have discussions about the cases. And you
know something that most of my students, I even talk
about safety, and I talk about, you know, being a
student walking on campus, and it sort of is a
good sort of opportunity for me to discuss. You know,

(52:01):
one of our local guys, Jack Treywick. Jack Treywick used
to cruise around UAD campus looking for girls, you know,
and I'm you know, I'm sitting there talking to him,
is like, why don't you look at that window, because
I can probably promise you that Jack used to drive
up and down that road right there on university. Uh,
and it sort of puts him into context. And uh.

(52:21):
You know, at the end of the year, I always
get commidents and emails from students saying thank you so
much because I didn't realize that. You know that you
always need to be aware of your surroundings a safety standpoint,
and I try to you know, his anthemittember. I start
off every semester I say, hey, this is an adult class,

(52:43):
so if there are words that offend you, this probably
isn't the class for you. And you know, I've got
just this past semester a guy I work with actually
it was a it was sort of a treat for
the students. They really enjoyed it. But I had a
friend of mine his wife who was his girlfriend when

(53:07):
they were younger. They've been, you know, a high school sweethearts.
And my buddy's brother lived in Gate City and Cleophus
Prince used to stay at their house all the time.
Oh wow, And you know his brother was talking about
some of the things that Kleophus did prior to getting
arrested in what he did in Birmingham, and just being

(53:30):
over their house all the time, and that was sort
of a situation that was it was a great situation
because you know, it was the first time that I
had someone who wasn't a family member, just a friend
of a cereal talk about what they saw as teenagers
from this individual. And it's sort of like, ah, man,

(53:52):
you know, it's like I always say, you know, they
hide in plain sight, and it's one of those things
that people don't realize. Like I said, I focus a
lot on safety and education, and I tell a lot
of my students it's like, you know, you really never
know what your surroundings could be or what can happen.

(54:13):
You've always got to be aware. And then I go
into talking about you know, you know, at some point
in your life you may have come in contact with
a cereal and not even know it. And I said,
you know, your likelihood of actually getting to meet or
talk with a cereal is probably you got a better
chance to do that than meeting your favorite celebrity, because,

(54:34):
as you know, cereals are so easy accessible these days
than what they had in the past. But yeah, it's
it's I think it's a good class. My population proves
that my class generally ends up being about eighty to
ninety percent female, ten percent male. And it's just sort

(54:57):
of like one of those taboo subjects that sort of
brings students, gives them a little bit of ease and
gets them to talk about some of the things that
they've seen on TV. And we talk about some of
the things that are falls and you know, I'm able
to put some of the myths about cereal cereals to
rest for them.

Speaker 3 (55:20):
Have you ever had any students that were like kind
of weird, like asking you questions that you thought were like, oh,
that's not this isn't right, you know, like the guy
seems a.

Speaker 1 (55:28):
Little life absolutely, And it wasn't a guy was a gal,
young lady. We were covering something on Trey Wick and
you're familiar with the case, and you know that you
know how he had a person on the outside that
I think that they were sending back messages about how

(55:48):
to do something to somebody and get away with it. Well,
we had talked about that and this student was kept
raising her hand in class, and she kept on she
and she kept on and I finally got to her
and just out of the blue, she's like, how do
you and get away with it? How can you do
something to somebody and get away with it? And I

(56:11):
just kind of stopped and I said, that's not an
appropriate question for this class. And I had to after that,
I had to contact the chair and there were certain
things put in place that I had to start doing.
And the thing about that is after she had asked
that question, over the course of the semester, the people
that were sitting sitting by her and gradually started shifting

(56:32):
away from her, and towards end the semester, she was
sitting all by herself, almost like on the nile because
everyone was they didn't know what you're think and I
think they were scared of her.

Speaker 3 (56:45):
That's crazy.

Speaker 5 (56:47):
I was going to say, if you ever want to
do the phone calls again with any offenders, It's been
a while since we've done it, and I have so
many new ones that you.

Speaker 1 (56:58):
Can talk to.

Speaker 3 (56:58):
You actually have a good friend of Otto Smith. He's actually,
ironically enough, he's a serial and libry two. He had
two victims at the age of fifteen and two others
at the age of like twenty two, twenty three, something
like that, And we're working on a few things right now.
He's he wants to like give back to his victims,
so we're working on like book projects and watching a

(57:19):
new podcast soon and so many other different things. But yeah,
if you want to do that in the future, I'm
totally still still down to do that with you and
your students.

Speaker 1 (57:29):
I appreciate that, and I absolutely want to do it
this semester coming up. I know that. You know, they
also got to kick out a wild deal just because
you know, he's so hilarious talking about talking about religion
one one minute and then talking about you know, graphic
sixth the next. But somebody else did they really enjoyed

(57:53):
was Oh, the gal from Oregon. Oh, Susan, Monica, Susan.
They really really enjoy that. So I don't know if
you're still in touch with her, but that was just
that was like mind blowing to some of them. I
got emails for days after that. But I think it
also sort of it sort of lets students see from

(58:17):
a different angle, because you know, you sort of have
to when you're teaching a class like this, you're sort
of going to go through and sort of break down
some of the things the miss. You're sort of going
to go through and sort of break down some of
the things the miss that they thought they knew about,
and like, you know, some of this stuff is just television.
You need to realize that. And there's a difference between

(58:38):
television and real life. And I think that whenever you
get an actual you know, when they had the opportunity
to actually ask questions to someone who's done stuff like that,
I think it just sort of blows their mind and
it's like, wow, this is very interesting. So yeah, I
definitely take you from that. Again, I really appreciate you offering.

Speaker 3 (58:57):
Yeah, most definitely. It was definitely and funny you mentioned
Susan Monica because she quit talking to me like like
a year and a half ago. After she she would
always blow up my phone and just want to talk
about like politics and this and that. I'm like, Susan,
I like, I have a job. I talked to a
little of other prisoners and she kind of like was
rude to me and hung up on me, and I'm

(59:18):
like whatever, Like I'm I don't take it personal with
these people, you know, but I'm going to reach out
to her and see if I can visit her, because
I have a friend that lives like ten minutes away
from the prison and I would be staying with him
and I'm trying to get him to visit her with
me too. But I really want to visit her because
her case is insane, you know, like.

Speaker 1 (59:38):
Even with that, when there's still so many unanswered questions,
because you know, whenever we were talking to her and
stupid were asking questions and you and I were asking questions,
she was still sort of cagey about certain things. And
that's the things that were like, there's some more diving
that needs to be done to see if she's going
to answer those questions. Right.

Speaker 3 (01:00:00):
Yeah, She's definitely an interesting individual, for sure. She's he's
uh interesting to say the least. Yes, absolutely, Amy, Do
you have any parting words or questions before we let
James go?

Speaker 2 (01:00:20):
So, have any thoughts on Kenneth Bianki or Wayne Williams
oh Man.

Speaker 1 (01:00:26):
You threw some curved balls to me.

Speaker 2 (01:00:28):
I know them both very well.

Speaker 1 (01:00:30):
Okay. I actually just got a letter from Wayne about
a month and a half ago, And honestly, I've always
that's one of those cases that I've always had doubts
about I had doubts about it years ago, you know,
when I first knew about the case. And then when

(01:00:50):
I guess Payne Lindsay did the Dwayne Williams you know podcast. Yeah,
of course, some more pieces to it that just, you know,
just sort of brought questions. And I told Wayne, you know,
in my letter, you know, I really think that, you know,
there are some significant issues about your case, especially the
carpet fiber, you know, evidence, because there was what six

(01:01:14):
thousand homes in the Atlanta area at the time that
had the same carpet.

Speaker 2 (01:01:18):
I've got something that will blow your mind.

Speaker 1 (01:01:20):
Uh, oh, lay it on me.

Speaker 4 (01:01:24):
What if I told you that I have emails that
Larry Patterson from the GBI lab and representatives from both
DuPont and Wellman we're both exchanging in two thousand and
two to two thousand and four discussing the source of

(01:01:44):
the fiber, and nobody could figure out where the fiber
came from.

Speaker 1 (01:01:49):
Oh my goodness, that's very interesting.

Speaker 2 (01:01:52):
Mm hmm.

Speaker 1 (01:01:56):
See that that just lends more credibility. And I talked
to someone in Savannah a year or two ago and
she was now it's Wayne, It's absolutely unequivalentally, and I
was like, I just I'm sorry, no disrespect, but I
just don't see it. I just it just there's just
too much doubt for me. And you know, Atlanta's not
that far from the house, and I've been over there,

(01:02:17):
and I understand that that Wayne was involved with some things,
but I just I can't buy it. And my argument
is always being and you know, the thing about it is,
there's empirical evidence to sort of back this up. And
I was like, please, if if he was the boogy man,
then he was arrested and we know that we got

(01:02:41):
the right guy, then why were there's still just as
many African American kids after he was arrested? Absolutely, And
people say that's not the case, and I was like,
there's evidence to prove that there there were. They just
sort of discount that, and I was like, I guess
I'm the only dummy here. I guess not. I guess

(01:03:02):
I don't. I don't, but maybe I'm just so gullible.
And that's the one thing that's always bothered about that case.
And you know, I think that he's I hope that
he hasn't.

Speaker 2 (01:03:15):
Given up, but no, he's not an attorney.

Speaker 1 (01:03:18):
I just I just think that I think that there's
so much that if you could prove to me that
there weren't more kids being killed after that, and okay, maybe,
but I know that that's not the case.

Speaker 2 (01:03:31):
That's definitely not the case. There were a lot of things.

Speaker 4 (01:03:36):
Well, I mean also people don't take into consideration either
the whole like why did the mo o keep changing
if he was the one who was doing this? Yes,
you know that doesn't make any sense either, Like that's
not typically what happens. And then on top of that,
how do you make Alfred Evans into one of the

(01:03:57):
pattern cases, but you don't make Edward Hope Smith and
they were both went missing around the same time and
found in the same place.

Speaker 1 (01:04:05):
Yeah, absolutely, I think that that right there, there is
there's so much more to that case. And I think
that that's why I like, I was hoping that, you know,
had there been a third season to Mind Hunter, because
you know, they were fixing the start. I think on
the Williams case, yeah, I was really wondering how they
were going to put that twist on it. But yeah,
I have a lot of doubts about his case as

(01:04:27):
far as the guilty factor. When it comes to Williams.

Speaker 2 (01:04:31):
Anthony Carter one of the I think it was a
victim of eleven. I believe the nine year old.

Speaker 4 (01:04:39):
His family firmly believes that it was one of their
family members. And if you go back and watch, I
think it was the Discovery Channel special. It was like
a three part special. There was a cousin that was
on there that was talking about how him and Anthony
Carter were playing hide and Seek, and he was just
oddly specific about some of the that he said, and

(01:05:02):
he was like, we did. We played hide and Seek,
and you know, there were forty of us, and then
afterwards I only counted thirty nine and Tony was missing.
And so it was like, well, what kids stopped to
count everybody who's still there? Like kids come and go
from games like that all the time, and so that
didn't make any sense whatsoever. But then what was even

(01:05:24):
more interesting was the fact that I looked at Tony's
autopsy report I got I was I was fortunate enough
to work with Wayne closely enough to be able to
get the bulk of the files, and I looked at
I looked at Tony's autopsy report, and the very first page,

(01:05:45):
you know, said that he went missing on we'll say
July five, that he was unlived on July sixth, he
was found on July seventh. They did the autops here
on July eighth, and I think that is the accurate timeline.
But then the inside narrative was something that was quite
interesting because that narrative said that there was there was putrification,

(01:06:12):
gaseous extension, but more than that, it said that there
was a massive maggot infestation in the bronchials. And the
life cycle of a fly is not like two days,
So that right there told you that it was longer.
So I contacted the body farm out in North Carolina

(01:06:33):
and they agreed to look at the records and they
were like, no, this is what It also had extensive
skin slavage and those are the words that were used,
massive and extensive and anyhow, So what happened was they
came back and they say that was more like three
to four weeks worth of you know, defomp and I

(01:06:55):
was like okay, and that just kind of pulled some
things together.

Speaker 1 (01:07:00):
Well.

Speaker 4 (01:07:00):
So in twenty twenty one, I helped get a headstone
for Tony and we did a memorial and I went
down when the News was down there interviewing the family
and stuff like that, and I recorded every single time
that he was talking to the news, the cousin in question,
And on one of those interviews he said, we didn't

(01:07:25):
know where he was until he showed up a month
later dead, and I was like, are you kidding me?
He just admitted that his little two day story that
he's been telling everything is a lie. And I was like,
oh my god, I talked to Sidney Dorsey. But you know,
nobody takes Sidney Dorsey any you know, as credible because

(01:07:48):
he himself has found himself in prison.

Speaker 1 (01:07:50):
Yeah, yep, that's yeah. It's there's just so much that case.
It's you know, I guess you know, the Gacy case,
there doesn't go a day go by that I don't
think about it, just because I knew John, you know,
I was able to talk with him and visiting. But
the Williams cases another one of those cases up there
for me that it's just I don't have all the answers,

(01:08:12):
and it literally sometimes it bothers me because there's so
much that we don't know about that case. Just like
what you said that you know, this is just a short,
little conversation we're having. Can you can you imagine all
the other stuff that you probably know that other people
don't know, and the way I am trying to say,
for all these years, I have.

Speaker 4 (01:08:33):
Tons of recorded phone calls with Wayne that he's told
me to record, and I'm not doing it because I'm creepy,
but he's like, here, take this down. And I have
tons of writings from him, and then I have those records.
I have the GBI slipped up and gave me those

(01:08:54):
emails when I did a request through using his permission
to get the record. And it's it's been it's been interesting.
But you're going back to your original thing about the probability.
The probability is absolutely an issue, especially because they didn't
take into consideration all of the patent poachers.

Speaker 1 (01:09:17):
But you know, I didn't even think about that. You're
exactly right that that puts another uh iron in the
fire right there.

Speaker 2 (01:09:25):
Yeah, at those emails.

Speaker 4 (01:09:27):
If you read the emails, they're really interesting because they
even talk about that. They talk about they asked upont like, hey,
you know who, how many people were you know, infringing
on your patent?

Speaker 2 (01:09:42):
And you know how many did you go after?

Speaker 4 (01:09:46):
You know that type of thing, and so it was
it was interesting because but again, if you call your man,
why are you having this conversation in two thousand and
two to two thousand and four, and why is wellman
who testified that it was their fiber not?

Speaker 2 (01:10:01):
Why do they not know.

Speaker 1 (01:10:04):
Exactly? And like you said, you know, all the patents
cultures think about that because you know, you can't go
more than what ten or fifteen miles in Georgia without
seeing a carpet company that used to be the thing,
you know, Georgia Carpet, Georgia Carpet. So yeah, I'm always
just trying to find out more about that case because

(01:10:25):
I think it's so interesting and I think, well.

Speaker 2 (01:10:27):
I have those records if you ever want to see them.

Speaker 1 (01:10:30):
Oh, I would love to read those things, just because
it's it's one of, you know, one of my ones
that I'm just so captivated about, and I think, you know,
I don't think that now after all these years, I
don't think that, you know, I'm one of the only
ones that don't think that way, you know, because no,
absolutely two together.

Speaker 4 (01:10:52):
People kind of shifted to you know, I've seen people
shift away from Yeah, I think he did it to Okay,
I think he might know something, and I'm like knowing
something and doing something or two totally different things, you know,
And that's just one of those things that's an absolute truth.

Speaker 2 (01:11:11):
But anyhow, I think his case is it's interesting. And
if you ever even want to talk to him on
the phone, let me know. I can get him on
the phone for you.

Speaker 1 (01:11:20):
Okay, I'll they take you up on that, because, like
I said, I've been trying to you know, I've got
some of the books here on my book paste. But
is there a book that you would recommend that would
be more accurate in relation to on Way's behalf or no?
Out there? I didn't think there was. I just want
to know.

Speaker 2 (01:11:39):
That's the problem.

Speaker 4 (01:11:40):
I would suggest reading the files and just letting it
all speak, you know, to you. Like the GBI files
for Patrick Rogers are another interesting.

Speaker 2 (01:11:52):
Like I don't know, I don't know if they're intentionally
trying to like create a narrative or not.

Speaker 4 (01:12:02):
But like on their so they have their autopsy and
they have their cover sheet and then they have four
pages of narrative attached to it and then it's stamped
with a signature and a date. Okay, Well, the problem
is that when I went to Cobb County, because he's

(01:12:23):
the only Cob County case. When I went to Cobb
County and I asked for the same records, I get
back sick pages of narrative, not four. So they left
out two pages. And those two pages are actually really
crucial because when you read those two pages, those two pages.

Speaker 2 (01:12:42):
Say things like Patrick was known to be a roamer.

Speaker 4 (01:12:48):
Patrick was, but basically it said, because he's young, black
and unlived, we should let the you know, task force.
And it's like, that's that's ridiculous. And I will say this,
in all the years that I have been, you know,
working with Wayne, I can say that I do have

(01:13:13):
theories about who was behind some of it.

Speaker 2 (01:13:18):
And I will just leave you to ponder this.

Speaker 4 (01:13:22):
I think some of them were absolutely done by paramedics.

Speaker 1 (01:13:30):
That's interesting, I see, I've got to read them. Yeah,
there's just so much about that case that it just
it leaves you hanging. And I guess it's so close
to me. That's another thing. You know, I'm just like,
literally I could jump in the car and be there,
you know, in an hour and forty minutes, you know, yeah,

(01:13:51):
over there, you know, in the neighborhood that he lived in.

Speaker 2 (01:13:53):
So yeah, see, do you know Edward Blackwelder?

Speaker 1 (01:13:58):
I do not.

Speaker 4 (01:14:00):
So he's over in Alabama and he's he was a
criminologist who he was a professor at Jackson State.

Speaker 2 (01:14:10):
And he actually worked.

Speaker 4 (01:14:13):
On Wayne's case during the time. I was gonna say,
if you ever need anybody fascinating to talk to. And
now he absolutely believes that Wayne is guilty of a
few but he but he firmly stands on his, you know,
his position that Wayne did not get a fair trial
and that Wayne should be out.

Speaker 1 (01:14:36):
Yeah. I think that's that's the way a lot of
us feel.

Speaker 2 (01:14:40):
He's the one who had Wayne's car for so long.

Speaker 1 (01:14:45):
Yeah. I think there's another guy that has his car now, Yeah,
Seth Seth, Yeah, Seth has it.

Speaker 2 (01:14:52):
Yeah. So I know Seth really well too.

Speaker 1 (01:14:58):
That guy. I've seen that guy who you're talking about
on like one of these Discovery things when they were
doing it. Yes, absolutely, I think he was friends with
Wayne's parents or something like that. Yes, yeah, okay, I
know who you're talking about it. I just don't know
him personally, but yeah, I remember seeing that. So it's
a small world. Let me tell you. You ask me about Kenny.

(01:15:20):
Kenny's a totally different story for me. Different story for me.
I don't have as much faith in Kenny as Kenny
probably has in himself or you know, some of his beliefs.
But I just think that there's a lot more to
that than we know. But I think Kenny's probably where

(01:15:41):
he deserves where he's at. That's just my two cents. Interesting,
He's he's an interesting character.

Speaker 2 (01:15:54):
He's a very interesting guy. Yeah, he's very light. Yeah,
he is very kind.

Speaker 4 (01:16:06):
It's it's a it was not at all what I
expected when I first met him.

Speaker 1 (01:16:14):
That's interesting because he used to be very hateful and
very just you know, sort of like rambunctious and uh
would I know people that that purchased art from him
and then he would sell it to him and then
he would get mad on the say I never I never,
you never paid me, I never did this And they

(01:16:35):
had lord riding and envelopes and stuff like that.

Speaker 2 (01:16:39):
So you know, he's never done anything like that with me.
I was, I was part of I was part of
his legal.

Speaker 1 (01:16:49):
Team as well, so you've probably seen a different side
then I have, absolutely That's that's that's the way that
you learn stuff about people as far as finding out
stuff that you know that things may not be the
way that you see them or perceive them to be.
So yeah, completely understand that.

Speaker 2 (01:17:12):
I don't know.

Speaker 4 (01:17:13):
I never I never dealt with the California case, but
I absolutely did work on the Bellingham stuff. And I
found some very interesting things in his Bellingham files.

Speaker 2 (01:17:27):
That I think are.

Speaker 4 (01:17:30):
I don't know, they pose too many questions for me
on his guilt for those.

Speaker 1 (01:17:40):
Do you think that they're attached to another sk in
that area?

Speaker 4 (01:17:45):
Uh No, I think they were attached to a love
triangle in that area.

Speaker 2 (01:17:50):
Oh interesting, Yeah, so.

Speaker 4 (01:17:55):
Reason being is because so like one of the things
that was in the records was a statement.

Speaker 2 (01:18:02):
It was a supplemental.

Speaker 4 (01:18:03):
Statement from police talking about spotting the girls at a
party that they had busted up about two hours after
they were supposedly unlived. Outside of that, there's two other
things that I find very interesting. I love when crime
and religion intercept too. It's kind of like my favorite

(01:18:23):
things coming together. But there was a guy named Robert Brown.
Have you ever heard about him?

Speaker 2 (01:18:30):
Okay, So Robert Brown was this guy. So his daughter
was working at I can't even remember the name of
the store Ken worked at. But so Ken was Jools
us a loaded question. I'm going to be filming on

(01:18:52):
Ken soon.

Speaker 4 (01:18:53):
So anyhow, So the Robert Brown's daughter worked there, and
there's this document that's in the police files. It is
not marked as not official or anything else. It was
literally embedded in this police file and it is a
turt Brown alleges that he had with a dispatcher and

(01:19:14):
it talks about how he's calling it in, saying that
he told and saw her in a coffin, and that
he warned her a week before. Anyhow, what's interesting about
him Outside of this whole transcript that's in there looking
quite official, there is a few other times that they

(01:19:40):
are talking to him, and one of them is where
Captain Shank is telling this, telling Robert Brown, if you're
having any more vision, do you need to come to
me for interpretation? And I was like, why did he
come to you for interpretation? And I was like, ooh,

(01:20:00):
I wonder because Robert Brown is a FLDS And I
was like, I wonder if that was like if maybe
he was like an elder or.

Speaker 2 (01:20:07):
Something like that.

Speaker 4 (01:20:07):
But anyhow, goassword though a year I think it was
a year after Ken had been arrested, I might even
after he was convicted. Well, both of those are still
true no matter what. But there is a converse. There
is a report of having a conversation with Robert Brown
where they're asking him to come in and give a

(01:20:30):
lie detector test. Why are you having somebody come in
and give a lie detector test? If you have your
if you have your person right, Like, why would you
do that?

Speaker 2 (01:20:40):
That doesn't make any sense.

Speaker 4 (01:20:44):
But there was there was a a relationship.

Speaker 2 (01:20:47):
I think it was Diane.

Speaker 4 (01:20:49):
I'd have to go back and look at all my notes,
but she was in a relationship with a guy named Steve,
and she also was in uh she was living with
a guy named Bill, and that night there is there
are records of Steve, who was a security guard at
a at the college, who went to his friend who

(01:21:11):
was a cop, saying that the girls were missing and
he needed a radio and a gun.

Speaker 2 (01:21:16):
Oh pp sorry, And but I'm like, that's so weird.
Why would you go and ask for that?

Speaker 4 (01:21:25):
But this was allegedly around the time that this whole
you know, love triangle was coming out.

Speaker 2 (01:21:32):
But that aside, there is a document that's inside of
the reports and there. This document is the prosecutor's post
conviction sentencing statement, and it goes through and it details
what they say happened in this particular you know event,

(01:21:55):
and they it talks about, I mean they You've got
to also think about the fact that this was a
huge house, right, and in this huge house, you know,
they they go through and they vacuum it afterwards, and
they find nothing. But they come back over a week later,
and all of a sudden, on you know, one single step,
they find a hair that is is attributed to each

(01:22:16):
one of them, all three of them on stairs that
they had already vacuumed, and they had already been walking
up and down. And that doesn't make any sense to me.

Speaker 4 (01:22:25):
But his post conviction sentencing statement this was interesting because
it laid out the path that was allegedly taken. And
this path, I'm sure you know the Lazard principle, right,
I do not the principle where it says that that too,

(01:22:46):
same principle with Wayne, Like, why was something of Wayne
allegedly on these twenty nine victims, but there's nothing of
these twenty nine victims on anything of Wayne's. Yes, okay,
same principle here, So what they did was they described
how this happened.

Speaker 2 (01:23:02):
So it was like Ken walked in the.

Speaker 4 (01:23:04):
House, he walked down the stairs, he walked down, and
he placed the weapon in a hidden spot. He allegedly leaves,
so he's walking back up the stairs through the house outside, goes,
meets the girls. They all come in. They're walking through
down the stairs, through the house where he's showing them around,
and then allegedly brings them back into this room where

(01:23:26):
all of this starts taking place.

Speaker 2 (01:23:28):
So you have.

Speaker 4 (01:23:29):
Clothing that's being taken off, you have taking place, So
you have clothing that's being taken off, you have these
assaults that are happening in beds and on.

Speaker 2 (01:23:41):
Floors and stuff like that.

Speaker 4 (01:23:42):
And yet there was nothing of any of them found
in those areas. And I have a problem with that
because they detailed forty nine different times when that transference
should have happened.

Speaker 1 (01:24:03):
See, there's always more that we don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:24:06):
I'm telling you, it is weird.

Speaker 1 (01:24:08):
Now the rest of the story, That's what Paul Harvey
used to say, Now, the rest of the story.

Speaker 4 (01:24:13):
When so in twenty twenty one, I met with Peacock.
Before they did, they were doing theirs. I think it's
like the I don't know what they called it, but
they I met with them and the producer told me,
she said, she showed me their research and the the

(01:24:35):
LAPD was boasting a ninety five percent solve rate for homicides.

Speaker 2 (01:24:44):
Get out of here, Okay, that's yeah. Toot your horn,
get out of here.

Speaker 4 (01:24:49):
You know the think or you know that you are
putting away people that are not guilty. You're just you're
throwing in some patsies here and there. But that's probably
how the Golden State ended up getting away for so long.
But that that posed the problem. There also was an

(01:25:11):
article that was in the La Times that was written
by this It was written by this guy named Bill
and I can't remember his last name, but it was
detailing the the information inside of a memo that was
leaked from two junior das to the main DA explaining
why Ken's testimony was problematic and it basically it was

(01:25:35):
going to end up making it so Angelo was going
to end up getting off there like it doesn't match.

Speaker 1 (01:25:43):
Now, that is very interesting, right there.

Speaker 2 (01:25:47):
I have all of that too.

Speaker 1 (01:25:49):
That's that's amazing stuff because that's the stuff that we
don't hear about that's like what I was mentioned earlier
about going through that Betaker stuff and seeing stuff that
you're like, that's interesting. How come this is never mentioned
and there's so much stuff that that's hidden within those
sort of documents is to just sort of like you know,
bypassed or overlooked intentionally most of the times. Especially Yeah, listen.

Speaker 4 (01:26:16):
We live in the age of Foya, and there are
so many people who will like watch a TikTok and
they'll be like, oh, this must be true because they
said it. And it's like at the time, people don't
even realize like what it is that they're reading. And
it just it kills me because I'm sitting there like guys,
like pause and break down what it is that you're

(01:26:37):
reading before you just start jumping to conclusions.

Speaker 1 (01:26:40):
Yeah, and Floya has come a long way, you know,
because like whenever, right after John was executed, I was
still trying to get confession statements, and you know, I
filled all the proper paperwork and literally got back like
twelve pages when I knew they shouldn't been like seventy
hiding stuff. And uh, I guess it's who all you

(01:27:02):
know is what it ended up because you know, Shortly
after that, about ten years later, the full confession statements later,
the full Confession Statements released the same thing that I
asked for, uh, and I went through the proper channels,
so you know it is what it is.

Speaker 2 (01:27:18):
Yeah, and and you know it's it's interesting.

Speaker 4 (01:27:22):
I mean, in all honesty, I think that I think
that Gaycy is a really interesting one anyhow, because of
the simple fact that you know, you had Bob Motta's
tapes that got put out, right, and then you have
what the heck was the lady's name?

Speaker 2 (01:27:42):
What's her name?

Speaker 3 (01:27:44):
Andrew, I'm blinking on her name. I know who you're
talking about, the you and.

Speaker 2 (01:27:49):
Catherine, I don't know. The sister, No, the attorney Karent
Kanty oh Kanti.

Speaker 4 (01:27:58):
Yes, So you have hers that also get put out,
and it's it's like you see two different sides of
Gaycy and those and it's just it's interesting because in
those little moments like here and there where you would
see like him say deny that he was guilty of anything,

(01:28:19):
and like you listen to the Mado tapes and it's like,
dude is sitting here like detailing this stuff down to
a t. But then on top of that, you've got
people like say, David Berkowitz, and David Berkowitz was Jack
Jones was a reporter. I don't know if you know
who he is, but Jack was a reporter who is

(01:28:41):
very close to David and anyhow, you know, I'm sitting there,
I'm watching the Sons of Sam documentary and after.

Speaker 2 (01:28:51):
I got off the phone.

Speaker 4 (01:28:51):
This is what I love about what I do, because
I was able to pick up the phone and call
him and go, all right, Jack, I just finished this documentary, like,
tell me what's up. And so he goes, oh, no,
that's a lie, he said, because all he did was
change with and he said, I've got like twenty hours
of recorded interviews with him where he's talking very openly

(01:29:14):
about what it is that he did.

Speaker 2 (01:29:21):
So I think that you have that kind.

Speaker 4 (01:29:23):
Of psychosis that's going on in there, you know, with
these guys that are wanting to, you know, portray something
that they're.

Speaker 2 (01:29:32):
Just they're not.

Speaker 1 (01:29:34):
Oh yeah, you know, how can you give your initial
confession and you tell about everything you know down to
specifics of what the kid was wearing, and then you know,
once you go to prison, you sort of forget all
that you know, you didn't say that, and that happens
a lot, and that's specifically with John you know during
you know, my my eleven twelve visits with him. During

(01:29:56):
the course of it, you know, he only talked about
to homicides, and we know that there's a whole lot
more than that. You know.

Speaker 4 (01:30:03):
Oh yeah, how they get under your watch in your house, buddy,
there was only two get out of here. That's the
kind of stuff that and Andrew you mentioned.

Speaker 2 (01:30:19):
Joel Rifkin. Joel Rifkin loves.

Speaker 3 (01:30:21):
Me, really, that's funny.

Speaker 2 (01:30:24):
Yeah, he loves me. I don't know what I did,
but I don't know. He's a He's an interesting character, is.

Speaker 1 (01:30:35):
Actually, especially when you start going deep into the case
fouls and just about the planning and everything, and you know,
when he's still living with his mother at the time. Uh,
there was just a whole lot of weirdness about that.
You know a lot of people don't know about that
case just because you talked about it.

Speaker 4 (01:30:53):
Well, that's because they stick to the big ones, the
big names, the Bundies, the Dahmers, the Gaycies, you know,
the Berkowitz.

Speaker 1 (01:31:02):
And that's what I said, I said, you know, if
they would start focusing on smaller cases, you would probably
find out a lot more information. I've got a letter
from David Gore, uh and he was a team killer
with his cousin, and he specifically talks to me about
how he and Bundy were friends while they were on

(01:31:23):
the road together, and how they wished that they had
teamed up on the outside, knew each other and teamed
up on the outside because because they were like, could
you imagine what we could have done on the outside,
me and you together?

Speaker 3 (01:31:36):
Yeah, that would have been the current all around. That's
neat to think about.

Speaker 4 (01:31:43):
That wild Well, all I know is that, I mean,
when you've got those main cases, people will consume it.

Speaker 2 (01:31:52):
And it doesn't matter how regurgitated the material is.

Speaker 4 (01:31:55):
If it's about Bundy, if it's about Gacy, if it's
about one of those they will eat it up.

Speaker 1 (01:32:02):
Oh absolutely, because it don't act like.

Speaker 2 (01:32:04):
It's new material. They've never seen them more. And it's like.

Speaker 1 (01:32:11):
It's like, you know, most of those cases are fifty
plus years old now too, and they're still being netflixed
out and everything else.

Speaker 4 (01:32:20):
Oh yeah, do you know do you know Harry D
la Roche.

Speaker 1 (01:32:26):
That name is so familiar.

Speaker 4 (01:32:27):
It was from New Jersey, and he went in at
eighteen for allegedly unliving his two brothers and his parents.

Speaker 1 (01:32:38):
Okay in Jersey, Jersey.

Speaker 4 (01:32:42):
Yeah, he just got broled like a year and a
half ago, maybe two years ago.

Speaker 2 (01:32:49):
But anyhow, I got close to him too, and you know,
he was talking about how well.

Speaker 4 (01:32:54):
They won't let me out because I won't you admit
that I did all four.

Speaker 2 (01:32:58):
I say, I only did the one.

Speaker 4 (01:33:00):
He claims that he came home and that that the
brother had done the other ones and so he hadn't
lived the brother.

Speaker 2 (01:33:11):
And I'm just like, but they don't. They don't go.

Speaker 4 (01:33:15):
And I mean I was telling him, I was like,
so why don't you go and see about like getting
a documentary done?

Speaker 1 (01:33:22):
Yeah, because there's so many interesting cases like that that
quit recycling, all the ones that.

Speaker 2 (01:33:27):
We know everything about, you know, yes, please.

Speaker 1 (01:33:31):
So that's what annoys me about it is it just
seems like there's something they'll they'll sort of put a
tagline out and make you think that there's something that's
just unbelievably found. In the end, once you start watching
the doctor, like What's name you basically tricked us into
watching this and there's nothing to new about the case.

(01:33:52):
And that's typical, especially when you think about the big ones.
You know, yeah, I think what Netflix is working on
the one about uh Gaycy they just did the Dormer one,
that they'll continually just recycle them because you know, it sells.
That's the thing about it.

Speaker 2 (01:34:10):
Absolutely And again I mean you can't. You can't get
around that.

Speaker 1 (01:34:15):
You can't.

Speaker 2 (01:34:18):
I mean I see all the I.

Speaker 4 (01:34:20):
See all the love for like Coburger and stuff right
now in that case, not necessarily for Coburger, but for
the case itself. But it's like, I feel like it's
just going to be just another case that's still going
to be overshadowed. It's going to have, you know, a
documentary here and there, and it's going to have books
here and there, but nothing is ever going to compare

(01:34:43):
to those big ones.

Speaker 1 (01:34:44):
You And that's that's you know, that's the truth. When
you go to the bookstore and see the same people
the same books, Like how many books have to be
written about Charles.

Speaker 2 (01:34:56):
Manson mm hmm or the Mafia?

Speaker 1 (01:35:00):
Uh, There's just it's there's like an unlimited number every
time you go, or you'll see like you know, you
could go to Lauren's and Noble Books, of Meeting, Like,
you know, you could go to Lauren's and Noble Books
of Meeting to the true crime section and you're going
to see at least five books Carla's face on it,

(01:35:20):
or five books with Dohmer's face on it. It's just
it still sells, and I guess that's why we still
consume it. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:35:31):
By the way, Andrew this this made me think about
the fact that two weeks ago a new civil rico
case was was was filed. Did he bat Joe and Pete?

Speaker 3 (01:35:56):
Oh I've been seeing Fat Joe like a guy claims
he like essayed him or something like that, and he's
doing Oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:36:03):
I read the documents last night. Oh my god.

Speaker 3 (01:36:08):
Yeah that's insane.

Speaker 1 (01:36:10):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:36:10):
I also read something that somebody claims that Fat Joe
tried to set up fifty cent multiple times and was
like like tracking his location and stuff. Like all this
crazy stuff's coming out about Fat Joe.

Speaker 2 (01:36:21):
Uh yeah, pe.

Speaker 3 (01:36:23):
Yeah, yeah, that's yeah, that's crazy. I wonder if anything
will come from this, Like I'm curious to see because
all these rappers are going down Melly, you know, tak
King Vaughan's was unlive, Like, all these rappers are going
to prison, little dirt. You know, it's crazy, It's just crazy.

Speaker 2 (01:36:43):
I want to go back.

Speaker 4 (01:36:43):
I kind of want to go back and listen to
my interviews with Eat now because I do have a
lot of his tales of violence captured in those interviews.
That's crazy, James, just FYI I was a ghost.

Speaker 1 (01:37:00):
Yeah, that's the way to do it these days.

Speaker 4 (01:37:06):
Yeah, my name was not going on that, although he
kept saying, you know, we're gonna put your name on
there too, and I'm like, I don't, I don't. I
just pay me to do my job and we'll call
it a day.

Speaker 3 (01:37:18):
There you go, all right, Well, thank you again, James,
I appreciate it. It's always a pleasure speaking with you.
I hope one of these days we can actually connect
in person. I was hoping you were going to crime Con,
but I know you're doing something around the same time
that crime CON's going on, and I wish I could
go to that. But I'm going to crime Con this year.

Speaker 2 (01:37:35):
What do you have going on because I'm closer to you.

Speaker 1 (01:37:39):
Well, there was I actually don't know if it's going
to happen, but there was going to be a sort
of like another gaycy Pogo Palooza three in Savannah. But
I think it's going to be.

Speaker 2 (01:37:54):
There's something in September. Is that it.

Speaker 1 (01:37:58):
No, this was going to be in July, and then
it's not going to happen. But I don't know what's
happening in September.

Speaker 3 (01:38:06):
Oh, somebody told me you were going, but maybe maybe
they were just confused a lot of them.

Speaker 1 (01:38:13):
It's going to be rescheduled. Oh I got everything couldn't
get put together the way it needed to be as
far as people speaking.

Speaker 3 (01:38:22):
Oh, okay, okay, Well maybe maybe I can attend that
then in the near future, since it won't be around
the same time Crime Hunters, that'd be awesome.

Speaker 4 (01:38:30):
Does this mean that since I'm going to be filming
on Ken, I get to now do speaking tours about.

Speaker 2 (01:38:34):
Him, saying I don't want to be that associated Julis.

Speaker 4 (01:38:42):
To answer your question, I actually am on the side
of I don't think Ken needs to be there. Ken
is an old man now, he is seventy two years old.
He's also not Ken anymore. He's Anthony Demotto.

Speaker 1 (01:39:01):
That's interesting.

Speaker 2 (01:39:02):
Yeah, he's changed it twice.

Speaker 4 (01:39:04):
He was Nicholas Fontana in between, but yes he is
Anthony Timatto. He's been that for like I don't know,
like twenty years, but maybe even longer.

Speaker 2 (01:39:17):
But he never officially changed it. But I think he's
changed in the system now, isn't it.

Speaker 3 (01:39:22):
Andrew, Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's officially changed. Because that that
the news news article. Somebody tagged me and one of
my sister's friends was like, did you know he was
up for probe? I'm like, yeah, and did you know
he changed his name? Like yes, a few years ago. Actually,
so yeah, he's.

Speaker 4 (01:39:42):
I don't think he's a threat to society. I think
he's he's an old man and I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:39:52):
He's like Bruce Davis. They need to go ahead and
let him out of the joint.

Speaker 3 (01:39:56):
Yep, yeah, I spoke.

Speaker 1 (01:39:57):
To Yeah, the only one that you know, there's there's
still some that are that may concern me, even in
their elder age, but you know, it's not likely that
Bruce or Ken will do anything you know, that's going
to get them landed right back where they are, right right.

(01:40:19):
And I think Andrew, you showed me a photo of Ken,
and I think he went from uh being this young
guy with his great looking hair and everything, and now
he looks like an elder Asian man. You know when
I see the last.

Speaker 4 (01:40:37):
Different, that's so funny. You know, it's funny too because
there are some older pictures of Ken that I have
seen people like mistake for Ted Bundy, and it's the
one where he's at court and it's a profile view
and you know, he's all dressed up in his suit testifying,

(01:40:57):
and I'm like, I see it, but that's definitely Ken.

Speaker 1 (01:41:04):
Yeah, I used to think that Ken would. I think
that a lot of people confuse Ken in the heyday
in Randy Woodfield as the same time because they don't
think that is he's the I five kay from Oregon
and rule ro to Brooklyn guy five Okay.

Speaker 4 (01:41:31):
Speaking of people for like your classes and stuff like that.
Prison talks a big thing on here and and I
mean like a big thing where you've got people like
there's a guy, Victor Gonzalez, who's spent I think it
was twenty four years in solitary confinement and he was

(01:41:52):
in Oregon and he is out and he's all about
telling his story.

Speaker 3 (01:41:58):
Yeah, I'm actually going to hopefully and hang out with him.

Speaker 4 (01:42:03):
They him and his cousin apparently like un alive somebody,
and they put him into pieces and send him to
a pig farm. And one of the Duffels didn't make
it to the pig farm, but he talks about it,
and he talks about being a shop caller and stuff
like that in prison.

Speaker 1 (01:42:26):
That's that's the stuff that interest the kids, you know.
They love hearing that stuff. That's why Susan was so
interesting to him, just because she would answer her questions
and you know, sometimes they're not so forthcoming.

Speaker 2 (01:42:41):
Right.

Speaker 6 (01:42:43):
Well again, I I've got a couple of others too
that I've connected with on here and on other social
media too, that you know, same thing.

Speaker 4 (01:42:56):
They're willing to always, you know, share their story and stuff.
Oh sorry, four and a half years in solitary confinement.
It was twenty something years in prison.

Speaker 2 (01:43:08):
My bad.

Speaker 1 (01:43:09):
It's still a long time, it is.

Speaker 2 (01:43:12):
Inde Jules for correcting me.

Speaker 3 (01:43:16):
All right, Well, we can round this out tonight again. James,
thank you. I appreciate it. Like I said, I hope
we meet in person sooner than later, and we will
certainly do this again in the near future if you're
up for it.

Speaker 1 (01:43:27):
Sounds good.

Speaker 4 (01:43:28):
And James, I followed you so I can get your information.
I'll send you some of those files.

Speaker 1 (01:43:32):
Oh, thank you so much. I appreciate that so much.

Speaker 3 (01:43:38):
You guys, have a good night and we'll old chat soon, okay,
all right, take

Speaker 1 (01:43:41):
Care of it, all right, all right,
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