Men's Mental Health Month: A conversation with Dr. Bill Kimberlin

Dr. Bill Kimberlin is a clinical psychologist, researcher, professor, and author best known for his work studying and documenting life on death row in the United States.

Dr. Kimberlin speaks about men's mental health and also speaks about his experiences with convicted murderer, Scott Peterson.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:16):
So my name is Bill Kimberlin, and I am a
forensics specialist here in Florida where I work with a
lot with the courts to help determine competency to proceed
for those that have mental illnesses. I have a bachelor's

(00:37):
degree in criminal justice and sociology. I have a master's
in clinical psychiatris clinical counseling, and then I have a
doctorate in psychology, and then I have an MCAB for
an addiction specialist as well.

Speaker 2 (00:53):
Okay, improble, Yeah, it is very impressive.

Speaker 1 (00:59):
Thank you. It's just uh, it's just a lot of
letters as all right.

Speaker 2 (01:04):
Right, I don't know if I've ever asked you this
funny enough, but like why and what made you get
into like wanting to be a mental health professional? Like
I know it's not for everybody because I know, you know,
mental health is like rampant in America. So like why
and what got you into you know, wanting to like
basically study psychology and like human psyche.

Speaker 1 (01:26):
I guess so. I actually I was a probation officer
and chief probation officer in Ohio and part of our
job descriptions were that we were to counsel all of
our people on our caseloads if need be, and you know,
kind my fresh out of college, you don't know anything.

(01:48):
You know, they give me a gun and a badge
and tell you, you know what to do. So I
decided to take it a little bit more serious, and
I went to UH school for time as well as
work full time, and the city and the county paid
for my degrees doing that, so I could at least
work with you know, those in the criminal justice system

(02:11):
all the way through. And because you'll see a lot
of addiction obviously, in a lot of mental health issues
throughout the entire judicial system. So I figured if I
had to utilize that job description, I wanted to be
able to get the proper degrees in order to do it.

Speaker 2 (02:32):
Well.

Speaker 3 (02:32):
How much schooling was that total?

Speaker 1 (02:35):
Well, jeez, four years for the undergrad another two years
for my masters, and then another two plus years for
my doctorate.

Speaker 2 (02:48):
Yikesang, that's dedication.

Speaker 1 (02:52):
Yeah, it was. And I knew that if I didn't
go straight through, I'd never go back. So I mean,
I I mean I would commute every day for my
master's to Tiffan University, so it was, you know, good
close to an hour away of a night and yeah,

(03:13):
straight group for a couple of years.

Speaker 2 (03:16):
So so what was that a total of that's a
total of what eight eight or ten?

Speaker 1 (03:22):
What's that years?

Speaker 2 (03:23):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (03:24):
Four or six seven?

Speaker 2 (03:25):
About eight and a half okay, okay.

Speaker 1 (03:29):
It slows you up when when when you do your dissertation,
you know that that slows it down a little bit
until the committee approves it and you know, then you
go through the ring around that. But class wise, I
would say about between about seven eight years.

Speaker 2 (03:45):
Okay, okay. Amy's here too, by the way, she just
got in here.

Speaker 1 (03:53):
Yeah, so it would be like it would be like
Amy when she went she received her undergrad and then
went to law school for three years, so you're looking
at seven years there.

Speaker 4 (04:02):
Probably seven long years.

Speaker 1 (04:06):
Yeah, so I would have gotten mine maybe one year
earlier if I didn't make that mistake. I think we
talked about that once before, where I made the mistake
and went to law school in Michigan for a year
thinking that I wanted to be an attorney and realized
I did not. That was a twenty two thousand dollars mistake.

Speaker 4 (04:28):
That's why you go to work for the state, so
that you work for ten years and they pay it
off well.

Speaker 1 (04:33):
Luckily I worked for the city in the county, so
they paid for all my degrees. Anyway, Yeah, so I
was undergrad. I had football scholarship, then my master's and
doctor was paid for.

Speaker 4 (04:45):
So I joked that I'm only six classes away from
going to law school.

Speaker 3 (04:49):
I'm not law school medical school.

Speaker 4 (04:51):
And so I was like, I'll just do it now
because it's paid for.

Speaker 3 (04:56):
I'll get those six classes for free.

Speaker 1 (04:59):
Right.

Speaker 2 (05:00):
Yeah, So today, since it's Men's Mental Health Month, I
wanted to talk about mental health specifically, you know with men,
and uh to basically start us out, so you know,
you know, the like the fallacy like you know, men
don't cry, you know, like uh, you know, suck it

(05:20):
up type of thing. Like I feel like, I feel
like mental health is is pretty bad, you know, like
when it comes to men, right because you know, we're
taught from such a young age like don't cry, you know,
stiffen up that upper lip, you know whatever, whatever, Like
why do you think why do you think that is
other than the fact like people are just ignorant and

(05:41):
like just feel like men should be men. You know,
do you think there's like some type of like stigma
that goes along with like men and mental health or
do you think, like, like what's your honest opinion on that?

Speaker 1 (05:54):
So it really depends on the socioeconomic status and the culture. Sure,
a lot of people don't realize that based on the
ethnicity and culture wise, it's it's frowned upon whether it's
mental health, counseling or substance abuse. You see that a

(06:15):
lot of the minority communities where they and I've been
in court literally with them, where the families will talk
them into doing time instead of taking a diversion sense
or downward departure or anything like that in order to
within that community. So there's a lots to be done

(06:41):
educational wise to bring people up to speed on the
real issues of mental health and substance abuse because they
usually go hand in hand in getting people involved in
it more.

Speaker 2 (06:57):
What do you what do you think are some things
that can get people involved in it more, like other
than obviously like therapy and whatnot, like like as like
family members or friends, Like what do you think people
can do to support somebody but not in the sense
like financially or like just I guess just like what
being there or do you think there's like any resources

(07:18):
or tools people can use that would be like not
common sensor or common sense that we wouldn't really think about.

Speaker 1 (07:26):
Yeah, the sad part is that the majority of the
resources that are out there to help individuals receive mental
health and substance abuse therapy, counseling, medications, m ats and
things of that nature is if you're not involved in
a criminal justice system, then you don't you're not privy

(07:49):
to those types of benefits. So that itself creates a
problem where somebody that doesn't have a criminal record or
isn't involved in the criminal justice system, it's a little
bit more difficult for them to seek out the proper treatment,

(08:09):
especially if it's residential for you know, three six, twelve months,
and to address you know, the co occurring issues and
things of that nature, because of the costs involved in
the time away from work and things like that, where
if you are sentenced there you know, to our agency

(08:29):
or other agencies that alleviates that that choice other than
you you can go to prison instead. But you know,
all of our services are really picked up by the
state at any given time as long as they are

(08:49):
involved in the criminal justice and then that's that's the
downside of it, So are.

Speaker 2 (08:55):
You good with stats when it comes to like juveniles
and males when it comes to like mental health and
in regard to like, for instance, like how many juveniles
before they turn eighteen do you know are like either
diagnosed with the mental illness or are more than likely
to be diagnosed with a mental illness or mental illnesses?

Speaker 1 (09:16):
So I only deal with adults. I have a few
juveniles on my caseload right now that I allowed to
see me for therapy because they're being charged as adults.
So everybody I see on my caseload is considered incompetent
to proceed until they are deemed competent and then or

(09:41):
their juvenile mental health and substance abuse is pretty rampant
as well, but it's very difficult to get them diagnosed
because you know, the schools are you know, the schools
are pretty backed up with everything that they have going on.
Parents are very resistant to having their kids labeled with

(10:07):
a diagnosis, again based on a lot of the culture,
a lot of the communities. So it's one of those
issues that goes unaddressed until law enforcement steps in because
of something that they have done, whether they are a baker,
acted or you know, a Marchmen actor or anything like

(10:28):
that here in the state of Florida. And at that
point then the criminal justice system steps in, the corstill
step in, and then the treatment is there. But sometimes
the you know, the more severe mental illnesses of schizophrenia
where that typically doesn't hit until about the age of

(10:49):
nineteen to twenty six, and a lot of times they're
in college at that time, and you know, it's because
it strikes like lightning, it becomes on a nowhere and
you know, there's that and you know there's that population
that you know, the third of the population will you know,

(11:10):
have that psychotic episode and then not have any others
based on the medications. Other ones will be able to
live a very accept that medication and it works wondrous
for them. And then the other third of that population,
no matter what you do, they're always going to be
non restorable. They're they're functioning in society is very limited

(11:33):
because the drugs just do not work on them. The
drugs just do not work on them.

Speaker 2 (11:41):
So you mentioned the Baker Act a few minutes ago.
Funny enough, and embarrassingly enough, I didn't really know what
that was until like last year because in Tennessee, there's
an act called the Sergeant Daniel Baker Act, right, and
that's because of the Stephen Wiggins case. He had unlived
the police officer, and they passed an act. Basically, if
you're in the commission of a like the you know,

(12:03):
the death penalty, you have no appeals and you're basically
out of appeals. So that's that's when I learned about
the Baker Act. Outside of the Sergeant Daniel Baker Act,
So can you can you explain exactly is.

Speaker 4 (12:15):
Andrew doesn't take away your appeals, it just changes the
way they go in Tennessee.

Speaker 1 (12:21):
Yeah, And I'm assuming that every state's different. So a
Baker Act here in Florida totally different. Baker Act here
in Florida would be somebody that is having some type
of a psychotic episode or they are they admit to

(12:41):
wanting to harm themselves or others, and at that point
a licensed counselor psychologists and armp can have them involuntarily
committed for you seventy two hours. More often than that,
they will voluntarily commit themselves to one of our local hospitals.

(13:06):
So the Baker Act here is, I mean, we have
people that have had twenty and thirty Baker Acts. You know,
when they feel suicidal or homicidal, they will call this
you know, non emergency numbers sometimes and the police, the
police will take them to the hospital, not to the jail.
Then the Marchmen Act is when somebody is harming themselves

(13:33):
with substances, whether it is you know, opiate or you know,
methamphetamines or alcohol or anything like that, where it becomes
so out of control that they have the risk that
they have the risk of overdosing. And then the family
members can have them committed or taken to somebody that

(13:53):
like myself, has an m CAP. We assess them in
place of them, and like.

Speaker 2 (14:00):
A nationwide thing or is that like a state by
state basis.

Speaker 1 (14:03):
I believe that's state by state only because there are
some states that they don't even really recognize a whole
lot of competency, Like we have a lot in hundreds
just in our county alone at any given time in
our court system that's going through you know, competency issues

(14:25):
to see if they are competent to to move forward
with their defense. And then we have four state hospitals
that we will send them to and they will be reevaluated,
placed on medications if need, be sent back to the jail.
If they're found to be you know, totally competent with

(14:46):
or without medications, and then they proceed to the trials,
so that slows up the entire judicial process for you know,
of wards close to a year. If they are found
non restorable after three years, then the case is dismissed.

Speaker 2 (15:03):
Difficult mental illness to either diagnose or work with. Somebody
that's been diagnosed, but that.

Speaker 1 (15:10):
Has the and why well, again, it depends on every
individual if they are receptive to taking advice and medication,
because you can't force anybody to you know, we we

(15:31):
send them to the state hospital, then they can force
them if it's under court order. However, you know, all
of the mental health illnesses can be very difficult to
treat if they're not going to stay medication compliant. Also,
it's it's rare to find severe mental illness without co

(15:56):
occurring disorders such as the substance abuse, so you know,
it's it's a little different than somebody that is situational
depression or anxiety or things like that. Now I live
in Penelas County in Florida on the Gulf coast of
Saint Pete, so we have the largest veteran population in

(16:20):
the entire country. We have the largest VA here, and
the PTSD is very, very rampant, and that can be
very difficult based on the traumatic experiences that they've had.
For typically for males, the most difficult the PTSD. For

(16:42):
the females that is very difficult to treat would be
the human trafficking because we have a lot of that
down here as well. When you when you start combining
mental health, substance views and the judicial system, you have
a lot of trust issues with the community as well.
So you know, there's this huge misconception that people want

(17:09):
to say that they are incompetent because they think that
it's going to be easier for them to get out
of their charges, and nothing could be really further from
the truth, you know, because when they're placed in our agency,
which is community based, they're placed out of CRO which
is a community a court order, and if they don't

(17:32):
follow that CRO to the t then the judge will
revoke that and then they're placed in the county jail.
So if I had a client, which I just did
last week, placed in the county jail because they weren't
compliant with the CRO, then the judge will revoke that

(17:52):
CRO and then they will order them to go to
the state hospital. Well, just in our jail alone, I
think we have over four hundred people on the waiting list,
So it's a good six or eight months that they
have to sit in a county jail before they even
get transported to a state hospital to be reevaluated, to

(18:13):
be determined if they need medication, and that if they
are incompetent but restorable, then you know, they have to
work with them on the competency aspect of it. So
none of that is very beneficial to the individual at all,
because if they are feigning or malingering with their mental

(18:37):
health illness and they you know, screw up in their
CROs reboken and they're in the county jail, all of
a sudden they are like, I just want to plead
guilty and get it over with. I want to take
a plea barganoent and get it over with. I want
to take a plea barganoent. You cannot do anything whatsoever
until you're found competent to proceed, so your attorney cannot order,

(18:58):
you know, or even advise them of a plea bargain
because they are not competent at that point to understand,
even though they could very well be, but we have
to have that evaluation done by the state.

Speaker 4 (19:12):
Then comes down to it being a contract with the state,
and one of the very basic tenets of contract law
is you have to be able to understand what you're
you know, binding yourself to you.

Speaker 1 (19:25):
Sure and you know, and they could be very listen.
It does happen a lot where they, you know, the
defense attorney will say, let's uh, you know, let's get
you a tested for competency, you know, thinking that they
are going to be able to be out on a
cro and not get into trouble, kind of like probation.

(19:49):
And then as soon as they violate that cro and
they're placed in the custody of the Panela's county jailed,
then the attorney's hands are tied because that person is
considered incompetent to sign or do anything until the state
says they're competent to proceed and that could take a year.

Speaker 2 (20:10):
So based on your like caseload and experience, right, how
many cases actually are successful when it comes to like
NGRI rather than just like pleading insanity just to like
avoid like a lengthy sentence or capital punishment or something
like that. Like you do you deal with cases like
that or have you in the past?

Speaker 1 (20:29):
Sure, so and Amy it would probably be able to
answer this better when it comes to the you know,
the nngris and the insanity because you know, insanity is
a legal definition. It has nothing to do with mental system.
That's just a term for us. You know, it's determining
whether they are competent to proceed, meaning that they have

(20:51):
to be able to assist in their defense all the
way through. And that's where we step into to make
that determination. And so once they are found to be
incompetent uh and non restorable, then uh the attorney would
be able to enter on their behalf a n GR.

(21:13):
So it's very complex. It's not like you see on
the on the TV or shows where somebody just says,
you know, I'm insane, and typically a person if they are,
if they say that they are insane, those are the
ones that are not. Because a person that suffers from

(21:33):
a severe mental illness like that, they really don't want
to be labeled at they think that they are Like
I have a lot of them that are you know,
the god complex where the you know, they're geniuses and
they have the superpowers and everything else. So it's thrown
around like insanity and and grs and things like that.

(21:54):
There's a lot of steps that they have to go
through before they can even get to that part.

Speaker 4 (22:03):
I was going to say too that I always thought
that Kenneth Yankei's case was interesting when they were looking
at events and then they had two doctors that were
kind of like in an adel item type position, and
then out of all six of those valuations that he
went through, they ended up going with the two the
state picked and just disregarded all the others. And I

(22:25):
was like, that's crazy, Like I don't know how the
courts people even got overlooked.

Speaker 1 (22:31):
So I have a case right now because I have
to testify an evidentiary hearing on July first. An individual
who allegedly stole six hundred and fifty thousand dollars or
at whatever you want to look at it, hired him
to do set up his security system, cameras and everything
else on his computer and throughout because he worked out

(22:54):
of his home. Lo and behold, the money comes up missing.
This guy gets arrested he dipped into a lot of
prescription drugs. Fast forward, you know, a year later. Here
he's had six evaluations. All six have said that he's incompetent.
The seventh one was done maybe three weeks ago. That

(23:16):
doctor came back and said he's incompetent and nonrestorable. All
of a sudden, the state raises a huge issue of
why is this one the only one that says he's
you know, nonrestorable. The judge they were they found a
motion to have human reevaluated. The judge denied that motion,
stating that how many evaluations do you need to continue

(23:39):
with this to of course, the doctor is going to
say at some point if he's incomponent that he's non restorable.
He's had six other evaluations. So now the state ones
and EVIDENTI your hearings and now we have to go
all and testify and everything else, because they just did
not like the last report where it says he's non restorable.

(24:03):
It's it's a very difficult complex system to navigate once
you uh, you know, step foot into the competency aspect
of it, you know, and that's and I think that's
where a lot of people get the NNGRIS and the
insanity is all confused because of that being legal definitions,

(24:25):
not mental definitions. You know, you're not going to find
the term and scene in the DSM and five at all.
Those are legal definitions.

Speaker 4 (24:35):
Very true, and also depending on which test is applied,
because there's tests that get used and.

Speaker 1 (24:42):
Right, yeah, right and wrong and things like that, some
states don't recognize it. So you know, there are no
issues of that because some states won't even recognize that.

Speaker 4 (24:54):
I've wondered why more haven't pulled away from the monotonal
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (25:00):
I feel like there's better options.

Speaker 1 (25:03):
Yeah, I agree. You know, like the case that that
I just use as an example for where I to testify.
The only thing that he is incompetent on is assisting
in his defense because he can't really remember enough about

(25:25):
that the actual case itself. Everywhere everything else he's perfectly find.
The guy's probably smarter than I am. The state wants
to say that he's malingering, and you know that we
advocate for the defense, and you know we're saying, listen,
there's five six other reports here say that's say otherwise,

(25:45):
So you know, but people want to cross about this.
This or this. You know, I don't go into the
legal realm, and they shouldn't crossover into the psychological or
psychiatric realm either. But there's a lot of egos involved.

Speaker 4 (26:04):
So I was going to ask in terms of, like
the ones that you relationship with that are on death
row and they're getting, you know, closer to that point
in time and stuff, does how does the prison like
handle that aspect you. I feel like I would be
freaking out. I don't know that I'd ever be able

(26:25):
to come to terms with it.

Speaker 1 (26:26):
As they approach their execution date. You mean, yeah, So
it's been my experience over the years, and it's you know,
we're talking close to twenty years now of doing this.
Most of my guys have they don't really think that
it's going to happen because they've had so many phantom dates.

(26:47):
You know, a day will be set, a data be set,
that they'll be set, and then you know, there's another
appeal filed and then there's another stage given that. So
you know, when you talk in you know, some of
my people have been on death row for thirty years,
you know, thirty five years. They don't ever think it's
really going to happen. And and they're typically correct. It's

(27:07):
all the definitely is going to be based on the
whichever way the pendulum swinging. From the political aspect of
it all, it's very polarized and political. So here in
Florida now, the governor's signing a lot of execution awards.
He started that when he was a candidate for president,

(27:28):
and before that he just didn't sign any at all.
And you're you're seeing that more and more now with
the new administration that they are, they're kind of pushing
for more executions. That's why you're seeing a pretty big
up uptake in them right now. And it's all political.

Speaker 2 (27:50):
Yeah, Tennessee's has quite a few schedule too.

Speaker 1 (27:54):
Yeah, South Carolina, Florida. Like I said, Arkansas is starting
up again. You know, I gotta go out there this year.
And you know, it's just it's it's it's really sad
that it's all based on politics, but I mean, it's
it's a it's a reality.

Speaker 2 (28:15):
You know what's crazy.

Speaker 1 (28:16):
I met no the one I had that had chosen
the electric chair happen the Diary of natural causes, like
last month, so I lost two back to back, another
one in California, which he wasn't going to be executed
at anytime soon, because again it's more of a it's

(28:39):
definitely a blue state, and there's a nabratorium place done
out there by Governor Newsom. But I mean he emailed me,
I mean he was in his fifties as well, telling
me that, you know, he's getting ready to put a
drawing and a portrait of the pope in. He sends
me a lot of art and I go to email
him the next day and boomed, who.

Speaker 2 (28:59):
Was the guy in California? I'm just curious.

Speaker 1 (29:04):
Jason Balcolm.

Speaker 2 (29:06):
Okay, I don't think I've ever heard of him.

Speaker 1 (29:08):
Yeah, he had raped and killed a newlywed female who
was pregnant, and then, uh he got away with him
for like fifteen years and then committed some other crimes
of rape and kidnapping in the state of Michigan, and
the DNA matched up, so California put him on death row.

Speaker 2 (29:27):
Oh okay, okay, yeah, I know. I know there's been
like half a dozen or a dozen death row guys
who have passed away since being transferred and stuff, but
I know some of had suicide and stuff like that.

Speaker 1 (29:39):
You know. Yeah, Now I had two of them. That
were natural causes on death row in California once they
got transferred. Jennings was another boat. I had both Jennings die.
The one here in Florida was a Jennings he died
of natural causes as well, and then Glenn Wade in California.
Glen Wade Jennings is one introduced me to Scott Peterson's

(30:03):
introduced Scott Peterson to me. I should say, give.

Speaker 3 (30:06):
Us your Scott Peterson impression, But what do you think
of him?

Speaker 1 (30:12):
Yeah? So I talked to Scott every two weeks. I
have I have all of his stuff other than the
fact that other than the stuff he sent me from
when he was transferred out of Saying Quentin's Death Brow,
he had everything shipped to me out of the cell
and not one signal item made it because you know
it somehow got lost in the mail and I'm certain
we'll find it. Some murder auptions sometime. Yeah, that happens

(30:37):
quite often with a lot of my male But you know,
Scott is very well educated, comes from a very good background.
His father just passed away this a couple of months ago.
Very uh. We talk a lot about family because his

(30:57):
dad and my dad were the same age into sixty minutes.
Things like that. Uh we uh. He had gotten into
an altercation in Mill Creek with another inmate when he
was playing pickleball, and uh yeah, he's a pretty humble
guy when it comes to admitting his false and you know,

(31:19):
and him and I we joke around. I'm like, what
the hell do you you know? Are you that bad
at pickleball that's able to whoop the ass? And he
explained that Listen, yeah, I learned the hard way that
when the ball gets away from me, you don't chase
after with a racket in your hand. When there's convicted
murderers standing around. I think you're coming at him. So

(31:45):
but yeah, he uh, he's an interesting individual. And because
of his appeals and how much he tells me and
sends me in his letters.

Speaker 3 (32:00):
Does does he admit to anything?

Speaker 1 (32:04):
You know? I have? I think I have maybe one
of uh I like to consider an O J letter
if I did do it right. So yeah, you know,
I'll leave it at that.

Speaker 3 (32:20):
Interesting. So who's like, who would just say is.

Speaker 5 (32:24):
The most famous that we would know that you've worked with?

Speaker 1 (32:29):
Its probably the same ones that Andrew knows. I mean,
whether it's you know Raider or Little Samuel Little or
Dennis Rader. Uh, she's Charles Zing a lot of time
with him. Some of them have, uh you know, have
passed on, like Jablonski and you know Jennings and Malcolm
and everything. But yeah, Garry Ridgeway, so yeah, I mean

(32:54):
there are some high profile ones, there are some that
others have probably never heard of before. I just I
treat him all the same, So I just never really
look at the body count as much. The only ones
I focus on BodyCount wise are the ones that I've
been working with where they've confessed of other murders to me,

(33:16):
and you know, I have maps to the body so
that's what we've been filming over the last year and
things like that.

Speaker 5 (33:22):
So well, who is your and I use this and
you know, like we talk about this, like who's your
favorite one?

Speaker 3 (33:32):
Even though it sounds weird and gross.

Speaker 1 (33:35):
But I get that a lot. The one I like
to talk to the most is Scott, only because he's
very well educated and can carry on a conversation and
has a very good sense of humor. He is pretty
grounded in the sense that he doesn't he doesn't get

(33:56):
his hopes up too much. But he'll let me know
when certain items are up for testing for DNA and
everything like that. You know, the last brief that they
filed was four hundred and sixty five pages with some
further e sculptory evidence and things like that. So it's

(34:18):
just a very unique and interesting case because you have,
you know, people that want to see him hung from
the highest tree, while and other wins think that he's
completely innocent. So it's either black and white with so
many people.

Speaker 5 (34:35):
Yeah, does he talk to Amber Fry or does he
talk about Amber?

Speaker 1 (34:42):
He does not talk to her. And I got him
to open up with me on that one a little
bit because I just I just said, Hey, we're down
the street. Is that you and Amber are still talk
and he went off, No, he does not. He does
not talk to her, just the uh the time he

(35:04):
was arrested and has wants nothing to do with.

Speaker 3 (35:07):
Her really yes, hmm.

Speaker 5 (35:12):
Interesting okay. And does he talk about Lacy and Connor?

Speaker 1 (35:19):
Sure? Yes, yes, his his hardest holiday for him, he says,
his Mother's Day. Mm hmm.

Speaker 2 (35:30):
That's interesting.

Speaker 3 (35:32):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (35:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (35:33):
And does his family did get to.

Speaker 1 (35:36):
See him, yes, very very close family. It's it's an
interesting family, uh in a sense that, uh they're not
all biological related and right, and his sister in law
is the one that is always spearheading his appeals defense

(36:00):
and things like this issue. He went to law school
to to help. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, see there's
you know right now if you you know, throw everything
on the table, of course, and looks like there's a
lot of reasonable doubts where people would could say, you know,

(36:22):
he was not Jilly. I. I always uh err on
the side of the courts. That's why I don't pretend
to be a Monday night quarterback attorney or anything like that.
I like to see the process play out the way
that it should. And uh you know, everybody will sit

(36:43):
there and say, well, they got this evidence, and the
rules of evidence are different in every state, and I
don't even pretend to understand them all. Uh. Amy would
be much better person to ask those type of questions
for And you know, again, the state ever wants to
admit that they're wrong, especially when they have a guilty verdice.

(37:08):
I think my biggest issue with that entire trial where
a couple of the jurors ever selected, I did not
I did not care for their statements afterwards in finding
out their backgrounds and things like that. But that's uh,
you know, Mark Ergols was paid and paid well to

(37:30):
pick a good jury and he seated them, just like
the state head son.

Speaker 3 (37:37):
So I feel like with him.

Speaker 5 (37:40):
Uh, the one thing that I can't forget is that
when he called nine one one, he told them he
was golfing.

Speaker 3 (37:51):
So he lied.

Speaker 5 (37:52):
It's like Alex Mardoch, like he said he wasn't in
the you know, in the stable, but he actually was.

Speaker 3 (38:00):
He was there, So it's like you can, you can.

Speaker 5 (38:05):
Say whatever else you want to, but he told them
he was golfing, right, So you don't need to lie.

Speaker 3 (38:14):
You don't need to lie about where you are. If
you don't need to lie.

Speaker 1 (38:18):
Sure, and you know, I'm I'm in agreement with that.
But I'm also a big believer that if if there
is any evidence that can be tested for DNA that
may or may not alleviate him from these charges or
incriminate him even more, test them, you know, just like

(38:42):
just like yeah, just like they're saying he lied, Okay,
then the police and the States should have absolutely nothing
to worry about if they have a rock solid case.
So let the defense test everything that they have. Uh,
you know why you call all of the witness is
that you know the LA and this is project is

(39:03):
bringing up now that you know, Garret goes to that team,
didn't at the time or whatever, and let it play out,
I guess, but I have no need to talk to him,
And at least amount of questions I asked him, the
more he tells me.

Speaker 5 (39:17):
So, yeah, yeah, I mean, and you're you're probably getting.

Speaker 3 (39:23):
A totally different Scott than we got.

Speaker 1 (39:28):
Absolutely absolutely, because you know, you're you're only going to
get what Dan Abrams and Nancy Grace and everybody else
gives you, and it's very biased. But on the same token,
everything that I'm getting is just as biased when I
talk to other professionals like yourselves, because you know, there's
three sides of every story. There's his side, their side,

(39:50):
and the truth and who knows where that lies in between.
So the media is going to say one thing, Scott's
going to say another thing. I'm getting the Scott's version.
Everybody else is getting the media's version, And honestly, the
the attorneys are probably more privileged that the information is
out there than anybody else. So I am certainly smart

(40:15):
enough to not believe everything he says, but I would
never believe any of the media says either. Yeah, but
you know you can't say that for an excuse. You
can't use ineffective counseling because he had, you know, the
best money could buy at the time.

Speaker 3 (40:35):
So yeah, interesting. Interesting.

Speaker 2 (40:42):
So circling a little back to metal health health besides
the traditional you know, therapy, like go into a therapist,
what in your experience, like, what do you think is
the most successful type of therapies? I know there's like
art therapy and all like different types, Like what do
you think is like the most successful? And I know
it's like a case case case basis, but like what

(41:04):
would you recommend like for somebody that's going through like
mental health issues.

Speaker 1 (41:09):
So I guess it would depend on the type of
mental health. So when you have somebody that's very very
clinically depressed, suicidal and a depressants would a lot of
times kick that into where they actually commit suicide. They
actually commit suicide. So the last thing you want to
do is give somebody in a depressant when they're at

(41:32):
that you know, stage in their life where the age
in their life where the darkness is just so bad
One of the best treatments for that was is ketamine,
started many years ago with Cleveland Clinic, and they have
found if you are diagnosed as severe chronic depression with

(41:58):
suicideology and you walk out that day happy and it's
a low dose and there's maintenance ketamine losengews that you
get over the counter, so the infusions are every so
many months. We have a lot of those clinics around here.

(42:18):
I've seen tremendous success with psychedelic treatments such as ayahuasca, psilocybin,
peyote under you know, obviously direct supervision and administration of it.
But we're starting to see some really good advances When

(42:41):
it comes to psychedelics. The problem gets to be the
federal government. They don't like to lift those sanctions to
allow more research to be done. But it you know,
psychedelic is not one of those drugs aaches to the depression,
to anxieties, to a lot of addictions with substance abuse

(43:04):
and things like that. So I think that we're coming
up on some really good medication assisted treatments when it
comes to mental illness. That's the plus side. The downside
is when you are dealing with the cluster of mental

(43:26):
health issues that when grouped together, becomes schizophrenia. We're out there,
you know, the second generation medications, and I'm not certain
how much research and investment is going into those type
of drugs because again it's a supply and demand and

(43:46):
people will pay big money for weight loss drugs and
things of that nature as opposed to mental health drugs.
And it takes many years and you know, hundreds of
millions of dollars is to be able to develop those drugs.

Speaker 2 (44:05):
What are your thoughts on shock therapy and is that
even legal anymore to practice?

Speaker 1 (44:11):
Sure, sure it's it's it's used for a lot of
the clinically depressed when they are Again, this is before
the kenemine really came out, so I'm not certain how
much is used nowadays. You know, everybody always thinks of it,
as you know, one flew over the Cuckoo's Nest with
Nurse Rats Ratchet and you know Jack Nicholas and all that.

(44:36):
But typically they will go through you know, fifteen twenty
rounds of electro cardio stimulation where they know it's shock treatment,
but they anesthetize them now, so it's it's creating a
seizure in the brain to try to rewire and redo
the circuits in the brain. Some it helps, others it

(44:57):
does not. But that's a very difficult treatment to get
somebody to agree to because of the stigma that goes
along with it in the fear of it.

Speaker 2 (45:09):
Does it have to be agreed to or can they
do it involuntary? Nowadays?

Speaker 1 (45:13):
Now no, it's there's very, very very few treatments that
are administered involuntarily. So I mean, if if they're given
anything basically against you know, their their wishes because they
are in a state hospital, court ordered, it's going to
be an injection form like the in vectas and things

(45:36):
like that, where it's different medications to try to alleviate
a lot of the uh, the positive and the negative
symptoms of hallucinations, delusions, you know, the voices and again
you know, when it comes to those type of mental illnesses,

(45:59):
there's a lot of search showing that depending on the
parts of the country and the way they've been raised
is really going to depend on it's going to dictate
what their paranoia and thought processes are. So for instance,
if they ask schizophrenia individuals think that God is speaking

(46:20):
to them or they are you know, John the Baptist,
or their Moses or their God themselves and things like that,
where other parts of the country, if they're raised in
the household that is say, anti establishment, anti government, then
they're the ones that have the paranoid beliefs of everybody's

(46:41):
out to get me, They're going to find they're following me,
the government's out to get me, things like that. So
it's really fascinating to pinpoint when they were stricken with
that disorder and the type of paranoia, delusions, and hallucinations
that they suffered from.

Speaker 2 (47:01):
Speaking of schizophrenia, Are you familiar with Joshua Rudeger? Not
right off hand now, the vampire slasher I should afterward done.
I'll send you an interview that I did with actually
a few interviews I did with him. He he's the
most severe mentally ill person I've ever met in my life,
and for the life of me, I have no idea

(47:21):
why he's not in a mental hospital. He he unlived
a homeless woman and tried to unlive to others and
he drank their blood. And he's in prison now and
he was just either convicted or it was dropped due
to like mental However, you say that mental incompetency or whatever,
because he unlived him in prison and like drank his

(47:42):
blood and I guess it was like a quote unquote
contract that he wanted to send him to hell and
basically be like Satan's like sidekick or whatever. And yeah,
I'm gonna send you my interview with him after because
I'm be curious what you think about him, because whenever
I talked to him, he's alway telling me like he
just recently died and he came back to life. He

(48:03):
was smashed by a train. They put him back together
in a morgue, and he's a two thousand year old
vampire and is a samurai and this and that, like
he's he's really really gone. It's it's really sad.

Speaker 1 (48:15):
Yeah, it is sad because you know, I have individuals
that are every bit is decompensated. Is that individual is
you know in different ways, but you always have to
remember that their perception of all of that is also

(48:35):
their reality. So they believe that, and it's hard for
somebody that doesn't have that mental illness to grasp their
thoughts because it's so far fetched from us, because we
don't have those delusions. Hallucinations, paranoia, things of that nature.

(48:58):
You know, we we recognize it that perception is not
always reality, but for them, their perception is their honest reality.
So they live that every single day and there's no
coming back and been receptive to the medications already.

Speaker 2 (49:16):
Right, Well, he gets injections, but he calls the injections
blood injections, but he calls the injections blood because he
says that they don't give him blood, but they give
him blood injections, which I'm sure they tell him it's
blood just to you know, satisfying or whatever, you know,
because he always tells me, you know, like I don't
have to drink blood anymore because they give it to
me every two weeks so I don't have to hurt

(49:36):
anybody or whatever.

Speaker 1 (49:37):
You know. Yeah, I mean I have a lot of
patients that are on you know, the three month shot
and there's still just as delusional. You know. I have
one guy seen once a week, and he is he's
a great individual. You know. He was honor student in
high school, full academic scholarship in Florida State and was

(49:59):
stricken with schizophrenia and literally believes that he works for
the generals on five different planets, and there's a seven
headed dragon, the ass the sleigh every so often and
I mean, and you know, I will have him read.
He always carries the Bible in the charme with him,
so he always have him read scriptures to me every
every week. And he does it verbatim. He you know,

(50:21):
does in this word. He's his speeches, you know, clear
and concise when it comes to that. But when he
talks about all of the other stuff, you know, the meduces,
the seven headed dragons and things like that, he's telling
you as its reality, and you know, you just have
to really sit there and listen to him, and then

(50:44):
you ask them questions about is that is that causing
you to want to harm anybody else? Or is that
going to want to cause you to harm yourself? Because
that's really what you're looking for, is are they looking
to harm somebody or harm themselves? And if not, then
it's really not against the law to be incompetent or

(51:07):
they have mental illnesses. That's why when you see so
many homeless people out there living on the streets, and
they really want to live out there because of the
mental illnesses that they have. That's their reality. They they
they can't comprehend anything different. Uh, And it's sad, it's

(51:27):
it's a it's a very sad state of affairs when
we look at somewhere like skid Row and the majority
of them are mental health related, where the hospitals from
UCLA and Oliver will dump them the patients there when
they have no insurance and that's the only place for

(51:48):
them is skid Row.

Speaker 2 (51:52):
Right, Yeah, Yeah, that's that's actually where Joshua was. He
was on skid Row. They called him a skid Row slasher,
among other other names. And he's told me stories of
skid Row, which I don't know if they're true or
not because he's so far gone, you know, I don't
know if what he was telling me was true or
not true. And he claims he has like a five
other victims out there and he drank blood every night,
but who knows, you know.

Speaker 1 (52:12):
Yeah, I mean skid Row is a different society. You know,
we would not be welcome there at all. And people
don't want to be recognized on skid Row, you know,
most people. When it first came about, it was mostly
for those that were alcoholic, you know, abusing alcohol really bad.

(52:35):
And then it became more drug infested. But then mental
illness took over when a lot of the hospitals shut
down the so called insane asylums and it was no
longer permitted to hold people like that, so they started
living on the streets. And I see that here every

(52:56):
day in Saint Pete, and we have a lot of
homeless that are very, very stricken with mental illness. But
again that's not being homeless. Again, maybe against the law
in some areas, but mentally ill is not. Incompetent is not,
and certainly being an addict is not. So what do

(53:19):
you do with these individuals.

Speaker 2 (53:20):
In Yeah, that's the million dollar questions. Unfortunately nobody has
the answer. I mean, I think the answer is money.
But unfortunately state or government doesn't want to quote unquote
waste money on throwaways as they.

Speaker 1 (53:32):
Call them, you know, which is right very trespassing, criminal
mischief or whatever, and then they warehouse them in the jail,
right right, or.

Speaker 2 (53:43):
It's too late to help them. You have people like
Isaac Zamora, or like Richard Chase, or people that just
go out and unlive a lot of people and then
they get the They always tell me in prison, like
I can never get mental health treatment in the free world.
But as soon as I committed all these crimes and
took all these lives, like they were there to help me,
but it's too late, you know, Like they can get
help the rest of their life, but they'll never be

(54:04):
a free man or woman.

Speaker 1 (54:06):
You know. Sure. And I think the the strongest message
to send a lot of people out there in the
general population of society is that the percentages of people
with schizophrenia or major mental illnesses are not violent at all.

(54:30):
They're just not. Now when you see the you know,
the school shooters and mass murderers and things like that,
and you find out that they were depressed or they
were bullied and things like that, and they people want
to label that as mental illness, that's a little bit different.
But typically somebody that is mentally ill, even with schizophrenia,

(54:56):
they're they're really not a threat to other peop people
on the outside.

Speaker 2 (55:02):
Yes, isn't it. Isn't it like they're not really a
threat unless you unless I don't know what, like you
can come off like what aggressive or just I find
it like a lot of people that don't understand schizophrenia
are the ones that are afraid of them or feel
like they're gonna hurt them or whatever. But I've gone
to Seattle so much and I've I've seen so many

(55:22):
medal ill people, Like I've I've given food to a
lot of them. I've I've spoke to a lot of them,
and like they're the kindest people ever. Are just misunderstood.
Like because there's one guy, it's sad in Seattle. He
has schizophrenia by by the baseball field. People will literally
pay him pennies to dance and like record him. And
it's like it just breaks my heart when you know,
when I see when I see him on like my

(55:43):
fip on TikTok and stuff. It's just, you know, some
people just treat them like they're like sideshow Freeze.

Speaker 1 (55:49):
It's it's sad. Yeah, it is is very sad, and uh,
you know you approach them like any you would anyone else.
It's just you know, when you're in the the bigger cities,
you know, Chicago areas and things like that, or you've
been down here Saint Pete. You know you're at a
bus stop or a corner or whatever like that, and
somebody's coming up to your bark and like a dog,

(56:10):
and of course your instincts kick in, like, oh my god,
this guy wants to kill me, and it's it's nothing
like that at all. They're just they're having some type
of a psychotic episode based on their mental illness, and
when you go to approach other winds, it's, you know,
they've probably been abused in so many different ways that

(56:33):
their defense mechanisms kick in as well. So it's a
it's just really sad when you see so much mental
illness that's out there right right.

Speaker 2 (56:46):
Speaking of schizophrenia, one time, I was diagnosed with bipolar
disorder after two twenty minute video sessions with a psychiatrist,
and he prescribed me Sarah Hill. And after two days
of taking it, I started hearing people you know that
weren't there, and like I was going for a walk
with my sister and you know, much mouth from fat Albert.

(57:08):
I like I couldn't I couldn't talk. I was trying
to talk, and I was just like yet, like he
should have never done that, let alone diagnose me over video.
Like looking back now, I'm like why did I even
go to that guy?

Speaker 1 (57:19):
You know?

Speaker 2 (57:19):
But I got like a tiny, tiny taste of what
it was like to like hear voices that weren't there
because this medication I think it's like an antipsychotic or
something which I probably shouldn't have been on.

Speaker 1 (57:30):
You know. Sure, so a lot of people take cirquality
and help them sleep at night, you know, to rest
their brain, so to speak. But you know the reality
is that a psychiatrist or arnpo whomever that's going to
prescribe those anti psychiotics or you know, pills that help

(57:55):
you alleviate the depression of the menia, depending on what
part of my suffered from. It's a revolving door and
no different than a medical doctor when they want to
prescribe somebody pain pills. So you know, if Andrew comes
to me and you sprang your say, Amy's the other doctor.

(58:18):
I say, you know you need to elevate that I
sit twenty minutes on, twenty minutes off, twenty minutes on,
you know, four times a day. It's gonna take about
seven to ten days to get that swelling down. Take
some anim's lamentatories and you should be fine. You go
to Amy, she looks at it and says, yeah, that's

(58:40):
a pretty bad spring. You know, here's some darbissets, some vicodins.
You know, oxy whatever, this will alleviate the pain, Well,
who are you going to go back to the next time,
You're gonna go back to amy because that instant gratification
that we have of take everything away from me right
now pain wise, even know, the best course of treatment

(59:01):
would really be elevated. I sit on tents, off, tournaments
on and you know, get rid of the inflammation. But
what we were, we're not that type of society. The
same with when it comes to antipsychotics or any medications.
People when they go to a doctor, they want to

(59:22):
leave with some type of medication. Say about that, that
type they want to have some medication. You know, you'll
see people going all the time for you know, a
viral infection and flu or whatever, and they leave with
a Z pack and they take that, you know, for
five days and they swear that makes them feel better.
Well it's done absolutely no good for them because antibiotic

(59:46):
is not going to help. But what does help is
their mindset of thinking, Okay, I left with some type
of a diagnosis and medication, So doctor Bill is the
guy to go back to, not the other guy. It
was more holistic in the sense of you know, let it,
let it run its course, get some rest, drink plenty

(01:00:07):
of fluids, uh, and and you'll get through this. So
it's it's the same with UH psychiatrists as well. They
have to have a lot of patients to come through
their door and everything else. So it's, uh, it's sad
but true, right right, Yeah, it's yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:00:30):
I feel like there should be like a minimum of
like five ten sessions before prescribing somebody something because like
when I was prescribed that, I was like, Okay, cool,
this is gonna fix me overnight. Then I started hearing
those voices and I'm like, what the hell, you know,
Like they weren't like like like bad or anything. It
was just like basically people like talking to each other.
And I was like, like, what the hell this is?

(01:00:52):
This is close randomst thing, like I like, nobody would
ever believe me, you know, like it's it was just
the most random thing, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:01:01):
And you know, that's where people will get into a
lot of trouble and involved with criminal justice system when
they're bipolar and they're on the up end of a
manic episode. So somebody that's suffering from mania, depending on
how they alleviate their mania, it could be shoplifting, it

(01:01:23):
can be you know, tons of unprotected sex with different partners,
it can be all different things. That's what they need
to satisfy that mania at the time, over indulging when
it comes to shopping or whatever. So the medications will

(01:01:44):
alleviate that. But a lot of times they're already arrested
for the shoplifting or stealing the credit cards and everything else,
and it really is them being bipolar and they are
in the midst of a manic episode that could last weeks.

Speaker 2 (01:01:59):
Right right, Yeah, I've yeah, I've definitely seen that. I've
worked in the healthcare field. Film was fifteen years and
I've had clients that are d D memolio like co
occurring substance.

Speaker 1 (01:02:10):
And all that.

Speaker 2 (01:02:11):
You know, It's I've seen a lot.

Speaker 1 (01:02:13):
It's it's pretty pretty sad.

Speaker 2 (01:02:16):
Yeah, it's very sad. Yeah, it's very sad. I had
a client that was schizophrenic, you know, DD, bipolar, BPD,
Like he had almost every mental illness and every mental
retardation like known to man, and he he just did
not function, like he was always talking to himself and

(01:02:37):
screaming like he chased me so many times. He's like
assaulted people. But he and like they had bars on
his windows so he couldn't get out. Like police would
always get called because he sounds like a woman when
he's screaming, and they'd always you know, report like a
woman's being beaten or something. But it was just him
like having episodes. It was the worst client I've ever
had in regard to like mental health and mental retardation.

(01:02:59):
Like it was just it just is heartbreaking, you know,
And there's nothing you can do other than medicate him
and protect yourself, sadly enough.

Speaker 1 (01:03:06):
Yeah, and you and you see how bad it is
and you feel bad for him. Imagine how the siblings
or the parents felt, you know, when they've lost a child,
because it's a living person that they've really lost.

Speaker 2 (01:03:23):
Right right. Yeah, And a lot of my clients there
it's sad their family have been in them because they
can't take care of them or they don't want to,
or it's a burden or you know, it's really sad. Yeah, yeah,
crazy stuff. The mind is definitely a very fascinating place,
and like not no brain I think is one and

(01:03:45):
the same, you know, like even just the slidest bit,
you know.

Speaker 1 (01:03:50):
It's it's definitely the most complex organ in our system.
And you know, coming from somebody like myself who's had
two brain surgeries over my lifetime, Uh, I can I
can say with one hundred percent certainty that whoever uh
studies you know, neurology and neuroscience and neurosurgeons, they uh,

(01:04:11):
they definitely have a gift.

Speaker 2 (01:04:13):
Oh yeah, yeah, definitely, yeah. They I'm sure they're very
patient and very you know, because you've got to be
the to drill into somebody's brain or something. I can
do that, I'd I'd be squeamish at the at the
very side of it. Let alone, I'd be like, am
I gonna, you know, like hurt this person or are
they not going to come back?

Speaker 1 (01:04:30):
You know, I'd be I'd be it's it's a it's
a risk. When they when I had the second brain
surgery and they removed the tumor, they went up through
my nose, they broke my nose and pulled it out
that way. Wow, that's yeah. Huh.

Speaker 2 (01:04:48):
Well, I appreciate you coming on today. It's always it's
always a pleasure, you know, speaking with you, and I
love your you know, your your expertise and your opinions
and and the fact that you are very very open
about you know, the sanctioned you know, executions and everything.
I find that very fascinating too, you know, it's it's.

Speaker 1 (01:05:10):
Always I would never turn your your show down, only
because you know, over the years and I don't know,
I mean listeners we have out there, they don't realize
how how much we've come to know each other. And
I have bounced so many things off of you and
likewise with you and me, And it's rare to find

(01:05:30):
people that you can trust in this field of study
when it comes to the criminal thinking and death row
and prisons, and so I know that I can always
if I haven't heard of the individual, You're my first
one I go to to find out if if you
know this person. So I really really really appreciate you.

Speaker 2 (01:05:49):
Yeah, yeah, most definitely, most definitely, And I'm hoping eventually
we can meet. I know you said you won't be
making it to crime con this follow hah.

Speaker 1 (01:05:57):
Yeah, I've never been to one.

Speaker 2 (01:05:59):
Yeah, I never have either. It's it just it happens
to be in a city where near where I have
a family member. So I'm like, I'm gonna go and
check it out. You know, I'll probably go from here
on out, though, because I've read people's reviews and they're like,
I'm never gonna miss a crime count ever.

Speaker 1 (01:06:13):
Again, I've never heard anything bad about it ever. And
you know, they had one in Orlando, which I'm only
an hour and twenty minutes from not too many years ago,
and I still didn't go to it. But eventually I'm
gonna make it to one, I guess because it seems
like the thing to do.

Speaker 5 (01:06:28):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (01:06:28):
But every I mean, people will follow it no matter
where it's at, and uh, it's it's crazy that it's
such a huge following. And I'm certain it's great the
network with everybody out there, but it's just one of
those things that's I've never interested in me yet.

Speaker 2 (01:06:45):
Right right, Yeah, I'm most I'm most looking forward to
to networking with people like I know, like doctor Dana
Anderson will be there, Steve Giangelo will be there, Jason Jensen,
like I already know quite a few people that will
be there. So I'm like super stoked.

Speaker 1 (01:06:58):
I mean, I get asked had a million times, you know,
if I'm going to be out there, and I think
people are shocked when I say that I have no
intention to, but uh yeah, maybe the next time around
wherever wherever it's at next time. Who knows how somebody said,
maybe in Tennessee or something. I don't know, Oh that'd
be cool.

Speaker 2 (01:07:16):
Yeah, you should. You should apply to be a speaker.
I guarantee you they would love to hear about the
like the witnessing, the executions and everything, because they have
so many different random speakers all the time, and like
some of that weird.

Speaker 1 (01:07:29):
I was asked the last one and I turned it down.
It's weird. I just but I guess I'd never really
thought about how many people actually do follow it, so
I probably should have taken them up on that. But yeah,
I wouldn't even know who to contact to say that
that I would do it. But I just spoken South

(01:07:52):
Carolina for the National Forensic Conference and that went over
really well. I couldn't believe that, so who knows.

Speaker 2 (01:08:02):
Yeah, that's cool, that's cool. All right, Well, Amy, do
you have any parted words? Thank you?

Speaker 6 (01:08:12):
And if you need help with navigating how to get
to be a speaker on crime Coln.

Speaker 2 (01:08:17):
We've been working on it for.

Speaker 3 (01:08:20):
I'm part of a nonprofit.

Speaker 6 (01:08:22):
With Selwyn Jones George Floyd, so we've been learning to
navigate a lot of things.

Speaker 1 (01:08:31):
If you ever find out if they're interested in anybody's
having me, you know, out there to speak, I guess
let me know so truth, because.

Speaker 6 (01:08:42):
I was thinking about it, I was like, you know what,
I want to do some stuff with like juvenile justice
and stuff. But I just within the organization, I don't
have a lot of people who match the same interests
as me.

Speaker 1 (01:08:55):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:08:56):
Yeah, putting the other advisory committees.

Speaker 1 (01:08:59):
Yeah, anytime I can help out, just let me know
you can reach out anytime. Yeah, yeah, thank you. All right.

Speaker 2 (01:09:09):
Well, yeah, like I said, it was it was a pleasure.
Well I'm sure we'll do it again in the future
and again and again and again. So like you said,
you'll never turn me down, and I'll never turn you
down for advice or anything like that. I appreciate you
helping me with like figuring out how to email or
talk to different death threadmates and stuff, because they have
like a million different platforms and kind of know they

(01:09:30):
they should just stick to one.

Speaker 1 (01:09:33):
Ridiculous. I'm yeah, yeah, don't get me started on those.
I get I get so ticked, especially when they censor
mind and everything else because I've used the wrong word
or whatever. But oh yeah, I.

Speaker 2 (01:09:46):
Just had that happen a few weeks ago, and I
was like, I didn't say anything gang related, and it
came up as gang related, and like, what the heck?

Speaker 1 (01:09:55):
I know, yeah, I know. We'll be in We'll probably
be in touch within less than a week for something.
So anything you ever need, just reach out.

Speaker 2 (01:10:06):
Okay, sounds good, sounds good. Will you take care and
we'll talk soon.

Speaker 1 (01:10:10):
Okay, absolutely, you guys, take care of by Amy.

Speaker 2 (01:10:14):
Bye, all right bye guys.

Speaker 5 (01:10:33):
H