July 3, 2024 • 37 mins
In Episode 105, award-winning actor, filmmaker, and comedian Aizzah Fatima discusses her journey from microbiologist to celebrated artist. Aizzah shares how her acclaimed stage play, "Dirty Paki Lingerie," evolved into the film "Americanish," which challenges stereotypes and showcases the diverse experiences of Muslim American women. Through her work, Aizzah blends acting with activism, using storytelling to foster understanding and combat Islamophobia. The episode also delves into modern-day feminism, cultural identity, and the transformative power of art in activism. Join Aalia and Aizzah for an insightful conversation about representation, identity, and the importance of authentic narratives.
Muslim American, Aizzah Fatima, Dirty Paki Lingerie, Americanish, Women in Film, Representation, Cultural Identity, Modern Feminism, Art and Activism, Islamophobia, Diversity in Media, Storytelling, Microbiologist to Artist, Award-winning Actor, Filmmaker, Comedian, Podcast Interview, Muslim Women, Activism through Art, Authentic Narratives
Muslim American, Aizzah Fatima, Dirty Paki Lingerie, Americanish, Women in Film, Representation, Cultural Identity, Modern Feminism, Art and Activism, Islamophobia, Diversity in Media, Storytelling, Microbiologist to Artist, Award-winning Actor, Filmmaker, Comedian, Podcast Interview, Muslim Women, Activism through Art, Authentic Narratives
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
From Ubian Studios. You're listening toUnsugarcoded with Alia, bringing you interviews with
public figures and inspirational people speaking onself improvement with empowered themes, and I'm
your host, Ali Alaneus. Hello, Hello, Hello everybody, and welcome
back to another episode of Unsugarcoated withAlia. Once again, we just want
(00:20):
to delve into pressing issues today thatare definitely shaping the world that we live
in. We're going to turn ourattention to the power of storytelling in challenging
stereotypes and fostering understanding in a deeplydivided society. At a time when misconceptions
and prejudices are rampant, Authentic narrativesare more crucial than ever in breaking down
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barriers and building bridges between diverse communities. One of the key issues we'll explore
today is the representation of Muslim Americansin media. Despite Muslim's making up at
least one point three to five percentof the US population, probably more,
our representation in film and television isdisproportionately low and often negative. A study
(01:04):
by the USC Annenberg Inclusion Initiative foundthat from twenty seventeen to twenty nineteen,
less than two percent of speaking charactersin top grossing films where Muslim. Moreover,
when Muslims do appear on screen,they frequently are portrayed in stereotypical roles
related to terrorism and violence, contributingto a false narrative and widespread Islamophobia and
(01:30):
a deep misunderstanding. Another critical topicis the intersection of modern day feminism and
cultural identity. Women, particularly thosefrom minority communities, face unique challenges as
they navigate the complexities of cultural expectationsand the broader feminist movement. The struggle
to balance cultural heritage with the desirefor gender equality is a narrative that resonates
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deeply across various communities, not justthe Muslim but definitely includes the Muslim Amamerican
experience. Art has long been apowerful tool for social change, providing a
platform for marginalized voices and offering newperspective on entrenched issues. From theater to
film, to visual arts and literature. Creative expressions have the ability to humanize
(02:16):
abstract issues, making them more relatableand urgent to a broader audience. Isaa
Fatima is an award winning actor,filmmaker, and comedian. Isaa has successfully
transitioned her intimate stage play Dirty PackyLingerie into the critically acclaimed film American Ish,
the first romantic comedy about a MuslimAmerican family navigating life in America while
(02:38):
preserving their culture. Don't you wantus to have more than this? Be
something, yes, but first togo and get married and have children.
Then go be whatever you want.Dude, I'm never going to be able
to afford my own place. Home'snot that bad. It's a zoo,
(03:01):
Mariam, what's the purpose of yourvisit. I'm here to find a nice
Pakistani American doctor to marry. Jeez, study crue. The antaps aren't gonna
East themselves. I want to goto Harvard. That's the best peach program
in the country. I gotta tellyour room has really freak me out.
(03:24):
If you're gonna get a room,like, just put it only in your
room. Allah. These prices areridiculous. We will pay you twenty four
for every night. My daughters theythink they know everything best. You know
what, I'm a grown woman.Always don't let girls all covered up.
(03:45):
You're never going to get married withthat staff from your head. I don't
want to be with someone who doesn'tget my values. Our country is being
overrun by immigrants. You're working onthe Douglas Smarts account. I mean,
the guy is a racist. Igot a call from the hospital. I'm
gonna have to go with you.Don't need to marry the first guy who
(04:05):
shows interest in you. Everybody's gonnaget what they want. This is America
Active dream Blending acting with activism.ISAA uses her work to challenge stereotypes,
(04:31):
promote understanding, and highlight the experiencesof modern Muslim American women, ladies and
gentlemen. Please welcome is Issa Fatima. Hello, Hello, Hello, Oh
my gosh, I'm so excited tosee you. How are you. I'm
great, what an exciting welcome.Thank you so much for having me.
(04:54):
Thank you, Thank you. Sotoday I think you're talking to us from
New York, Yes, or areyou in the world today? I am
in New York City, very loudNew York City. You're probably gonna her
sirens while we're on this call toso you know, right outside that window
over there, No worries, it'lljust make it feel all the more real,
right, authentic, authentic, exactly. So I really appreciate you taking
(05:15):
the time to be part of thisepisode and be a voice on this conversation.
You know, first off, Ihave to let the audience know how
I actually came to learn about you. Was watching American Ish. I was,
oh, my godness, it's sucha good story and I was crying
after I watched it, because weneed more films like that. So I'm
very excited for my audience to learnabout you, learn about your journey getting
(05:39):
there. But I just have topreface it with this. You know,
I am so grateful for artists likeyou, women like you, Muslims like
you. Everything New Yorker is likeyou, everything in between, because you
make me smile and cry feeling represented, you know, on the screen.
So thank you for that. Ireally appreciate that. Thank you for that.
(06:00):
Oh my goodness, that's amazing.That's the whole point. That's why
we make the heart we make youknow. Thank you for saying that.
And I know it's not easy,so very hard, very hard. It's
like pushing a thing uphill that's likeconstantly falling apart and you had to gather
it up again and push it upsome more. Right, Yes, yes,
I do know what you mean.So let's talk a little bit about
like your early life and your careershift, because you did have one.
(06:24):
You originally were working as a microbiologistand an ADS engineer at Google. It's
so crazy, and then you startedbeginning pursuing the art. So tell us
how did that happen. I didmy undergrad in microbiology and then I kind
of very quickly shifted because I washaving trouble finding jobs and my older brother
was like, hey, you knowwhat, it is really hot, and
so I was like, okay.So I went to graduate school for computer
(06:46):
information systems and got this dual businesstech degree that landed me at Google.
And it was like, you know, the job of like my dad's dreams
and my brother's dreams, and Ithought it was my dream for a while.
I really bought it because they wereso exc In fact, all the
men in my life were so thrilledwith me getting that job. And I
was like, oh, yeah,I want that job. And then I
(07:06):
didn't. It was like very painful. It was like a slow death every
day while I was there. Idecided to kind of pursue acting on the
side for fun, and I tooka class at in my U in the
evenings, and that just led toa whole career you know, in that
direction. Eventually, you know,it's funny because those experience you draw and
I'm like you have in American issyou have like the corporate worker. You
(07:28):
know, that's part of Google rightat Google. It's hard to believe.
Yeah, but that was that.Yeah, no, but I know,
I remember there was a time inmy life where having the suit and having
an ID card with my picture,even though I always hated the picture,
right, like the picture is alwaysthe worst, but like, you know,
just feeling like I'm contributing to theworld and I'm being a grown up
and I'm doing boardroom stuff. Andthen after a while it was like,
(07:50):
Okay, this is just not me. Yeah. I mean I think when
I was there, I really boughtinto this idea that I was saving the
world somehow because I worked at Google. It's just like a brainwashing that almost
happens. But yeah, you mademe think this is an off question.
But like, because I know you'rea humanitarian, I know that you're a
person who really cares about things happeningin the world to other people. Just
(08:11):
recently, I'm curious what your thoughtsare on watching Google's behavior. I know
that they've arrested they've fired, they'veyou know, what do you think about
that? If you work there now? I guess that's a better question.
If you work there now, whatdo you feel like you would be doing?
Do you feel like you'd be walkingout or do you feel like you
would just be part of Yeah,I really hope that I would be walking
out. You know, honestly,the Google back then wouldn't have even behaved
(08:33):
this way. I'm like shocked atthe behavior, you know, that's coming
out of that because it was alwaysabout like building community, helping other people.
It's shocking almost. I don't evenknow what to make of it.
In fact, the people I workwith they're not even there anymore, so
I don't even know. So thankyou for answering that, because I was
just curious. I'm like, oh, that's right. She was like Google,
and then you decided to start You'vemade dirty packing lingerie. So you
(08:56):
went to the stage first. Yeah, it was the only thing I knew.
I did theater stage stuff in highschool, and I knew that was
a I think I knew it wasa calling, but I didn't quite understand
it. I didn't know how topursue it, so I never I never
did. Yeah, I mean Inever set out to make films or TV.
In fact, I remember when Ifirst somebody suggested like doing commercials or
(09:18):
getting a commercial agent, which isbasically like how I make all of my
living these days. But I poopooed the idea. I was like,
Oh, that's not real acting.What is that? So, you know,
like I did theatre. It wasvery there Sabbia about doing that.
But it's interesting. Yeah, Imean me as an artist, I've grown
so much and just realized how youreached different audiences with different mediums and it's
(09:39):
all acting. But yeah, yeah, we'll let nobody try to look down
their nose at theater, to bequite honest, because it's one thing to
be on set and be able todo a retake. It is a whole
nother appreciation for We had a previousguest is Michael Nori, who was the
guy, the hot guy in FlashDance Right with Them, Yeah, and
he did Victor VI and I rememberasking him, like, what was his
(10:01):
best piece of advice and he's like, always be on time. And when
I related it to his experience intheater, I was like, yeah,
because I bet if you are noton time you're messing up everything. It's
like to do it repeatedly in frontof an audience, a live audience,
all the time, Like I justI have a lot of respect. Let's
talk about the origins of Dirty PackingLingerie and it's impact as a stage play.
(10:24):
I actually developed it in a classwith Matt Hoberman first and then Win
Handman, where I kind of likedeveloped the acting bits, and then like
found was really incredibly lucky to findthis amazing director who kind of stayed with
the play for many years, EricaGould. We kind of further shaped it
together and it was part of aFrench festival at New York. And before
(10:48):
then I'd done like a few plays, but nothing like this, not like
a role where for an hour,I'm the only person on stage. That's
a lot. It's a big like. It just takes a lot, a
lot, It asks a lot ofyou. As at that there was a
reporter from the Wall Street Journal thatcame out and did a feature in the
Sunday section for the Wall Street Journeyin the religion section. After that,
and PR picked up the story onthat Monday, and by that like Tuesday
(11:11):
or Wednesday, when we opened ourrun was sold out. What was so
amazing was just having Muslim and nonMuslim, like Asian, White, Jewish,
whoever, all the black, allthese people just kind of coming up
to us and saying I saw myselfreflected in that experience, and I think
I kind of understood. I waslike, Oh, there's something more here.
(11:33):
I think this is these themes,these characters, these people, like
this is kind of like a universalappeal. Maybe I do remember when that
run ended. I was like,oh, I guess it's over. Okay,
Well back to my job at Google, you know, for a little
bit. Yeah. Yeah, butthen that's not where it ended. No,
it's not where it ended at all. It's the largest South Asian festival
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of arts that used to happen inToronto, and we got in there.
So we went and it was atwo hundred seed theater sold out. We
did nothing, We just went soldit out. There was in fact a
fight outside I heard about that waslike people wanting to get in. It
was amazing. I was like,oh, I can't why is this is
crazy? How this is happening.So then American Ish comes about. Yeah,
(12:16):
So I went to Edinburgh, cameback. I had a couple of
shows at the Cherry Lane Theater inNew York City. I was performing there
and this super sweet filmmaker approached meafter one of those shows. And she's
a Egyptian American. Her name isAmanzawari. She has had done a bunch
of short films at that point andhad won like an Emmy Award for one
(12:39):
of her shorts and stuff, andshe was like, hey, you know,
what would do you ever think aboutlike turning these characters into a feature?
And I honestly was really thinking heavilyabout that, and I was like,
the only way to really reach alot of people is through pop culture
and in America, like that's likeAmerican films or music. Right. The
film was released last year with Sonyand that was our ten year anniversary of
(13:01):
our watching that play. Yeah,and you had a great ensemble cast.
I know, you remember George Wentwas in there. You had Moammar his
has his little role in there,a great role. He's so great in
it. I know, like,yeah, yeah, hire Moramer for more
rom coms, guys. He's sogreat in that role, really shines.
But also like appeal and you knowthe character who plays Miriam's character I mean
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these guys are all like younger actorsthat are really up and coming and are
doing like a bunch of TV,you know, and are such phenomenon actors
like Selena Kureshi. And then thetwo kind of Bollywood people who are really
well known in Bollywood who were init as well, the woman who played
my mom the Led Debate. I'veactually like grown up watching her films,
so it was just such a AndDavid Rashi a Jay and I do,
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who is such a star and isin like every single Sundance film, every
whatever. I've seen him do Shakespeareand then he you know, turns around
and does the party place in ourfilm. It's just amazing. I know,
I've watched it at least twice,so you know, well American,
it's just been just amazing. Imean we ended up doing like over thirty
festivals. We won like twenty fivefestival awards. Eventually the film was picked
(14:11):
up by Sony International for worldwide distributionand we also had limited theatrical release in
the US. I mean, itwas like our all of our you know,
wildest dreams kind of coming true becauseyou know, as filmmakers and we
know where the state of film isright now, like theatrical is almost impossible.
You know, films are not reallygetting bought at like even big festival
like Sundance, Tribeca, South By. No one's buying indie film. So
(14:35):
it's kind of amazing the journey withthis film that's happened. I mean,
you are right, it's still adifficult marketplace internationally, it's picking up,
which is good. I'm actually happyto see that platforms are opening up.
Like I just watched now, I'mgoing to forget the name because of course
that's what my brain is going todo right now. The women who were
(14:56):
the original courtisans, yes, HiramandiKiamandi, right, and I loved I
watched the entire thing. There's anotherone that's on there now that I haven't
actually had time to watch. Ofcourse, they're also curating it for me,
because that's how these things work.Now, these platforms know everything that
I like, and of course it'sinternational. But what I'm saying is I
like that they're having it on there. I think that shows opportunity and promise
(15:20):
for our demographics. Aren't these minoritygroups of people who have our stories and
are also Americans. That's a thing. And I know that for a long
time, being Americans definitely tried tosell this idea of in order to be
American, you have to abandon yourcultural identity, and I just disagree with
that. Not everyone wants to bemessaged too. They don't want to be
(15:43):
beat over the head with you knowwhat we're trying to do, So you
do it in this lovely way whereit's very light. It's light hearted,
it's funny, it's comedy, it'sreal world things that anybody can relate to,
no matter where you're from. Blendingacting with activism, you know,
essentially act through art. How areyou using your film and television work to
(16:04):
address the stereotypes and promote the understandingof Muslim American women. Yeah, I
mean I think it's always for me. Art, for the things I create
always are about activism. I thinkit's by virtue of like being. You
know, I was at a panelonce and there was a white woman who
got up and she was much older, and she goes, she stood up
on the stage, I remember,and she goes, she goes that,
(16:26):
you know, this is her activism. She goes, because I'm a woman
and I'm older, and I'm onthe stage. That makes me an activist
because no one wants to see thisbody on the stage. It was really
interesting, and I was like,oh, I think it's just by virtue
of being who you are sometimes youjust get like pushed into this thing like
thing because I'm a woman, andI'm Muslim, and I you know,
(16:49):
grew up in the South or whatever. All of those combinations of me are
that I think, Yeah, it'sjust like the art that I created just
bends that way, you know,whether I wanted to or not. It's
just my lived experience in the worldright, sharing your art and sharing your
experiences you you know, like Isaid, you're inherently addressing those stereotypes because
(17:10):
you're showing them it's not what youthink. Like that, I think is
one of the biggest beautiful things aboutAmerican is no differently than like you know,
Rami Yusuf is done or more Amorhas done. They've shown folks,
we're dealing with the same stuff youare. We have the same emotions,
feelings even within you know, likethe standard people want to put when they
hear we're Muslim, right, Iknow, for me, Yeah, it
(17:33):
doesn't take any extra work to dothat because it's actually the truth. Right,
We're all just humans, are allall connected, we all want the
same things in life, right,And so I think that's the thing that's
sometimes somehow missing when other people aretelling our stories for us. They're always
looking at it, looking at usfrom like this outside lens, and they
(17:56):
think we're subhuman, right, Sothen that's how they write those characters.
But I think when the characters areactually written from people behind the camera are
Muslim, then we're able to capturethat nuance and that very specific experience,
and there's always there's universality in specificity. That's the whole thing, right,
you know. Okay, outside ofme telling you you know, I cried
(18:18):
over American ash and a beautiful happytears by the way happy Tears, what
have been some of the other experiencesand shared stories of people who have been
impacted by the work that you're doingand the representation that you're bringing. We
had an uncle at an event onetime, be like, he got up
and he was one of the firstpeople to speak, and it was so
touching and he was just like andyou know, and we didn't realize.
I think I didn't realize like kindof the intergenerational conversation and the importance of
(18:42):
it that's happening in the film.Like there's the mom character and then there's
these younger girls, but also withinthe girls, there's an age gap,
right, there's a seven eight yearage gap between the older sister and the
younger sister. So it's like allthese kind of different conversations. And this
uncle got up and he was justlike, you know, we really struggled
(19:03):
with raising like I think three daughters, he said, in the US,
and our daughters have really taught usa lot over the years, and they've
taught us like things that we dowe don't do right. And it's like,
I'm so grateful for this film andI'm so grateful for the conversation it's
having, But you know, Iwas just really touched by like not just
people who are Muslim and come fromthis background or able to kind of identify
(19:26):
and see themselves reflected, but it'sreally I think it's for anyone who feels
they've ever been othered in America,right, and you don't have to be
Muslim for that to that point,Like, have there been experiences where people
have been able to share with youthat watching the film cleared up misconceptions.
I will say, yeah, thisis okay. So I have so many
examples of this because we did sucha giant tour of the whole country,
(19:47):
and we traveled everywhere. When thefilm was in a certain place, we
went. So this was in Arkansas, the height of COVID. We were
just coming out of stuff. Oursecond festival ever, it's the Gina Davis
Festival in Bentonville, and there's awoman Muslim woman who lives there who'd posted
like a watch party at her housewith some of her neighbors, who none
of them are Muslim, none ofthem are brown even, And she said
(20:08):
her neighbor, who she's very goodfriends with, who's super Republican, was
like watched the film and then waslike at questions about we have a Trump
like character. Right, it's samMy character's boss in the film, and
he's very Republican leading and that's thewhole Like we wanted to set the film
against the backdrop of what was actuallyhappening in America, like post the Trump
(20:30):
election, because that's when the filmwas shot. And she was this woman
said to the Muslim lady, shegoes, I didn't realize Trump affected Muslims
in America this way at all.I was really surprised, right, but
then it was fascinating. So thiswoman actually wrote to us and then she
said, you know, we wereable to have a very open and honest
conversation and was really touching. Likethey all the group of them got together
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and they were like, oh,I mean, okay, so emotional.
They were like, we're gonna likeracism and so with does It was just
like I was like, oh mygosh, Like you know, but that's
why you also like make something committedso you can like you can reach those
masses in that way, because Ithink preaching doesn't always work feminism in Islam.
(21:15):
Share with us your views on modernday feminism and how it intersects with
your identity as a Muslim American woman. Yeah, I mean, I think
feminism is such a loaded word,right because there's like we have all grown
up. I have grown up witha very westernized idea of what feminism means.
Because in the West, you know, just a few years ago,
(21:37):
there was the whole women taking offtheir tops right for their feminism and saying
this is my jihad or whatever.Prince of what was happening in Iran,
so, and I feel like itwas almost like being disrespectful, a little
bit disrespectful to Muslim women who docover up or their feminism. Right,
So covering up is your feminism inIslam in America at least, like the
(22:00):
Muslim women I know in America arecovering up for their feminism, right.
So it's it's such an interesting likedisconnect. I feel like, I remember
I was in Pakistan. It wasthe last time I was there, which
I just mentioned. I was touringwith the US State Department. I remember
we were going through all these villagesand I saw like so many miles and
miles of just like women working inthese villages with like carrying stuff on top
(22:22):
of their heads and men sitting oncharpeis smoking their shisha. N So I
was like, Wow, this isfeminism, This is feminine. These women
are freaking working all day long toprovide food for their families and these men
are not. This is feminine,this is so. I feel like feminism
looks like such different things depending onwhere you are and where you're from.
(22:45):
And it looks very different for aMuslim woman in America sometimes than it does
for others. And that sort ofthe film highlights that in a way,
right, there's a character we havethat does cover up, that does wear
hijab, and that is part ofour activism and her feminism. Yeah,
And to me, feminism is Ihave a choice and whether that should be
my choice, whether I want toor not. And I say this like
(23:07):
I just literally, like a fewdays ago on social media, you know,
a Muslim brother was like, Okay, if you're Muslim, why don't
you have hijab on? And I'mlike, okay, here you go.
Here you go, because I alreadygot a dad and a husband. You
are neither, So go find awall to talk to because it ain't going
to be me, right, Like, I think his jab is a beautiful
thing. And if you want,you should, I'm when I'm in Dubai.
(23:30):
Actually, I love being able towear my my bias and like,
just chill. They're cute, they'rekind of hot. They are super hot.
I really I brought one back.I want to wear it around just
you know. It's like I haveone super sep We'll get together and we'll
go down and have to We'll justwear it. Yeah, And then you
have you know, your character who'slike this modern woman. Hey, she's
(23:51):
she has dates with men she's dating, and in no way diminishes either of
those characters whatever they choose as Muslimwomen, because our journeys are our own,
our dean, as they say,under our own yes. And I
think as a filmmaker like that wasthe most important thing to me. I
was just like, well, thosecharacters that come from dirty packy launcher right
(24:12):
the play. So as just thewriter, playwright, all the things,
it's so important if I'm going towrite. Look, first of all,
I'm just one person. I cannever you know, encompass every single person's
experience with Islam, and I'm notrepresenting all of that. But something I
really wanted to do with the playand the film both was show different sides
of this. And that comes fromjust my own personal experience. Within my
(24:36):
own family. We have such adiver worth three sisters, you know.
I my mom is a super Hijabiwho kind of grew up in Saudi Arabia,
and so like, well, thecult, the whole thing, because
that's the cultural thing there, right, the nikob and the whole thing.
That's the culture. And so youknow, I have sisters in law who
cover you know, I flirted withthe idea of hijab for a little while
(24:56):
when I was a younger teenager andthen decided to take it off. So
all those experiences are kind of like, I'm like, Okay, you know,
I have a lot of tremendous respectfor people who do it and people
who don't. It's a choice,and I think that to me, if
I were to describe what feminism is, that's what it is. It's a
choice. Yeah, me, yousaid it earlier, one hundred percent.
And I wanted to make sure likewe showed that because I think like the
(25:18):
Western media is obsession with like Muslimwomen is like, oh, they're a
jobby, but then also they're batteredand abused, and how can we save
them? Yes, they're so oppressed. Now, it shouldn't be like further
from the truth. Like honestly,look, in my personal experience, I
don't know any woman who wears ahit job who's like oppressed. I don't.
So maybe I'm not to say thatthat that doesn't exist, that exists
(25:38):
in every every place, but yeah, but I'm like, well, why
don't we ever see the other side? What is the other side? And
we don't see it? So thatwas really important. I mean, and
when you talk about women, feminismand oppression, a Stepford wife who has
to look a certain way, whohas their on is if you want it
like, it's another kind of oppression. That's another kind of oppression. And
(25:59):
you know, women have been usedas currency. I mean, I think
that when people forget to step backand look at the history of women in
the world and in society, we'vebeen used as currency. We have fought
for our rights. In fact,you know, I had someone who told
me recently when we were talking aboutthe college campus encampments. You know,
he was like, well, Ijust don't believe it wasn't that because there
(26:21):
was violence that I saw at theencampments, but there was violence perpetrated against
them. And it was interesting though, because he said, well, you
shouldn't have to be violent to getyour point across, and I'm like,
well no. But unfortunately, whenit comes to people standing up for themselves,
if you look at images of womenduring the women's suffrage movement in America,
they were getting beat on the street. Women were getting harassed by men.
(26:41):
It was not this beautiful, Oh, women are out there on the
street looking for their rights. We'regoing to support them. No, it
was the complete opposite anytime, civilrights right, no matter what. But
with women, we've definitely have beenmarried off for you know, people always
want to say, like, well, Muslims do this, okay, have
you you've seen what other cultures havedone with their women, because in Europe
(27:03):
and America and the beginning, peoplewere just married off. But like whatever
an alliance, money propactly were property. Women were property. They didn't have
any rights. This is just America, not that long ago, right,
absolutely, so, it's just itis. It's always an interesting conversation when
we come to how we get ourrights, how we stand up for ourselves,
the resistance or excuse me, thepushback that we get for that,
(27:26):
and then the resiliency that's really hadto be endured by some incredible women in
history and supporting men who have beenthere to get where we are today.
Well, but also let's not forgetlike Islam gave women the right to vote
way before European women had that right. Yes, right, it's like yeah,
and own property and own their propertyand not be treated like cattle.
(27:48):
Right. Muslim women had those rightslike centuries before anyone else had those rights
so it's interesting and I feel like, again, who's telling the story and
how are these things getting lost intranslation? You know, which is interesting?
All the is something you said earlier, and I've myself quoted that USCN
and Burg study many times. Andwhat I've realized, like thinking more about
(28:08):
that is this, Yes, likea little over one percent, maybe more,
of the population in America is Muslim, but American media is global media,
and twenty five percent of the world'spopulation is Muslim, and Islam is
the second largest growing religion in theworld, behind Christianity at like thirty percent.
Right, So it's like, whenwe are importing our culture to the
(28:32):
rest of the world and we're showingMuslims as terrorists, that's a problem,
right, It becomes a global issue. Right. No, absolutely, we
need to change these images on ourscreen for the world, not just for
the one point five percent of thepopulation that's Muslim in America, but really
the global population and that's the majority. No. I love that you say
that. Notice that I said atleast because I never trust these statistics.
(28:53):
Right, there's a lot of people, there's a lot of people that won't
even you know, for fear whenit comes to public statistics not admit,
you know, for fear of whatthat is going to mean to their families,
because, like you said, yeah, no, Trump was trying to
kick out Muslims drink during his youknow, little moment. Well, not
only not only that, I thinkforever. I was just talking to an
Arab friend of mine and they werelike, yeah, you know, on
(29:15):
the consensus when they would come out. When I was growing up, my
family would always say we were whitebecause they're from the Caucases, right,
what, fine, Okay, youare white technically, I get it.
But they're also Muslims. So it'sinteresting, like we don't even know who's
reporting. We really don't. Theydon't. I mean, same thing with
Mexican Americans. For a long time, they were just they were considered white.
So our statistics do not properly reflectthe diversity within our country. So
(29:38):
that's one thing. But you know, on that, I agree with you,
and and I love the way thatyou've been able to, you know,
leverage and utilize your skills and showcaseto the world these stories. What
has ever been the most challenging partof navigating that dual identity for you?
(29:59):
I think I was younger it's becauseof this, right, It's because we
from our parents who are immigrants,were never taught like we're American. They
were always like, oh, you'rePakistani, so and then the whole world
around you is also telling you you'renot American. Right, So I think
as a young kid, that wasa really complex thing, and honestly,
like as a Muslim identity, Iremember when this shift happened exactly. So
(30:22):
I told you earlier. I wasdoing my show in twenty eleven, and
so often. It wasn't until Iwas like doing the show and I was
on a panel and I think itwas at Arkansas University of Arkansas. They
had a panel and afterwards they hada reception and they've made a cake and
they put a flag of Pakistan anda flag of America on it half and
half. And I was like,oh, that's like me. I'm not
(30:48):
like one thing, am I.And shortly after that, this must have
been in twenty fifteen or twenty sixteen. Shortly after that, the media,
the world, everybody started talking aboutthis Muslim America an identity. If you
really seriously charted, it wasn't inour everyday conversation to say, because we
are sort of like the youngest immigrantsto America, right, like Italian Americans
(31:11):
and you know, Irish Americans,they came a little bit longer than us.
So we're sort of still like findingthe language to define ourselves. And
I think it's taken me as anadult to be like, oh, I
am American, I am Pakistani.You know, I was actually born in
Saudi Arabia, so I was like, I'm also part I identify as Saudia.
I lived there for a little bitwhen I was a young kid.
(31:33):
I also grew up in Mississippi,and now I'm a New Yorker. So
I am all of those identities andit is okay. It's okay to be
all of those things. I couldnot agree with you more. It is
absolutely okay. And I think that'sthe that's the thing people have to understand.
It's a shared experience now because youknow, especially with the way immigration
has worked in the last hundred years, even more so with planes and the
(31:55):
way you know, it's just it'sour DNA actual Like how I talk about
how my DNA now comes back fromsixteen major demographics or regions that is a
reflection of America at the end ofthe day. To me, I am
just very representative of you know,but like you having grown up having dark
haired, dark eyes, and peoplealways been like, so where are you
from? You couldn't possibly be American, right, And I'm like, well,
(32:17):
what do you what do you meanby that? Like, you know,
I could have that conversation over andover again because it's just no,
and I get it. And Ialso grew up and it's weirdly in a
tiny little town in the South whereeveryone was blonde, whether naturally or bottle
I don't know. But then reallyI stood out. They're like, what
are you? Probably a lot ofbottle too, everybody does there. But
(32:39):
anyway, yeah, and I think, you know that's perfect, Like you're
everybody's a little bit american Ish,right, We're like a We're like a
you know, it's the whole rainbow. It's not just one thing. It's
just like all the things, allthe ways. You know. Yeah.
No, And if anything, I'velearned over time to appreciate that I am
different. I think there was atime when I just wanted to be It's
(33:00):
I grew up in you know,when I was younger, I lived in
Napa, and Napa is a veryyou know, Caucasian town, especially when
I was growing up there and itfelt, you know, I used to
want to be a Jennifer or aMonica or you know, Melissa, you
know, but then I grew upand I'm like, I'm so glad I'm
not that. What are your finalthoughts messages that you'd like to convey to
(33:22):
not just the Muslim community, butMuslim women community out there that are still
struggling with feeling comfortable in their skinand feeling comfortable with knowing that you know,
they are beautiful just as they are. They are just you know,
like, what is your message tothem? Follow your heart? I know
it's really a hard thing to do, and like that's one of the reasons
I actually made this film because inthe making of it, I realized I
(33:45):
was like, oh my god,it's like so hard. I identify as
like the images of like romance andbeauty that we see in rom comms.
It's always like the dude wants theblonde woman, always right, right,
So like there's something about Mary.All the films you've grown up, but
like even older, like you've gotmale all those problematic films that we love
and now we're like that dude wasgas lighting or the whole time that was
(34:07):
really now we have a word forit, write before we did it.
But yeah, but all those womenare always like white and blonde. So
it honestly in the making of it, what I've realized is in talking to
other women as well, like theyalways like identified their themselves and their own
sense of beauty as like proximity towhiteness, like how white is your skin?
(34:29):
How blonde can you be? Canyou dye your hair? All those
things? And I think, youknow, it's important to have these images
of like brown women falling in lovewith whether other brown men, and brown
men wanting these brown women back,you know, in a romantic sort of
way. So I think just youknow, know that you're enough, that
(34:49):
you're unique, and just you know, I mean, do the thing you
want to do with your life.Man, don't let anybody else hold you
back. Hmm. I love that. And I think you've shown that,
you show that in your work.You share that with what you do,
I know with your play, andI know with the American Ish, and
I know you have other things comingforth. You're not done. I saw
you on a commercial the other day. I was like you know, I
(35:10):
know you are. Oh my goodness, Alia, thank goodness for that commercial
girl. It's like it's hard outthere right now with sag Aftra and the
strikes, and thank goodness is commercialhas been running for a while. So
yeah, that's amazing. Okay,the thing I used to pooh pooh where
I'm like, God, Hey,if it's good enough for Sam Jackson or
Jennifer Garner, I mean, it'sgood enough for you. Like you know,
(35:30):
I want to thank you so muchfor being here with us today.
I know I could talk to youfor hours and hours, but I appreciate
your time. And yeah, andjust before I do it for anyone who
wants to follow you on social mediaand anywhere else that people can go to
support and follow your work. Sure, so I'm just my full name,
Issa Fatima on all the social medias. You can also follow some of my
(35:51):
other work. You can follow AmericanishFilm. You can also follow our stand
up slash TV pilot that's on FusePlus right now called Muslim Girls DTF.
We're going to be touring with thatshow all around the world, so we'll
probably be coming and the US,so we'll probably be coming to one of
the cities where you live pretty soon. I wish you all the luck and
(36:12):
I can't wait to have you backagain and next time in person, will
get you when you're in LA,next time in the studios. But thank
you, thank you so much,no, no, thank you so much
for being with us today. Andto our audience at home, listen,
you definitely want to check out herwork. You want to support these films.
I even tell my kids all thetime, like, even just out
of curiosity, go support it sothat you give other people the opportunity to
(36:32):
make this type of content over andover again. As a woman, I
want to say that I just reallyappreciate the representation that ISAA has brought to
the world, for her community,for our community in different ways. And
you know, I just I hopethat you've heard a little bit of our
conversation and said, oh, maybeI don't know everything that there is to
(36:53):
know, or maybe you are aMuslim American or a Muslim woman who's like,
okay, thank you, they're givingme permission to be myself. Yes,
well, not that we had togive you permission, You've had it
all along. But you know,just just live life the way you feel
is best serving you and your community. Keep your eyes on the prize is
(37:13):
your dean, your life, yourbenefits, and your family. So with
that, I'm just going to saythank you so much for being here with
us today, and thank you somuch for letting us be unsugarcoated. Take care,
From Ubian Studios. You're listening toUnsugarcoded with Alia, bringing you interviews with
public figures and inspirational people speaking onself improvement with empowered themes, and I'm
your host, Ali Alaneus. Hello, Hello, Hello everybody, and welcome
back to another episode of Unsugarcoated withAlia. Once again, we just want
(00:20):
to delve into pressing issues today thatare definitely shaping the world that we live
in. We're going to turn ourattention to the power of storytelling in challenging
stereotypes and fostering understanding in a deeplydivided society. At a time when misconceptions
and prejudices are rampant, Authentic narrativesare more crucial than ever in breaking down
(00:44):
barriers and building bridges between diverse communities. One of the key issues we'll explore
today is the representation of Muslim Americansin media. Despite Muslim's making up at
least one point three to five percentof the US population, probably more,
our representation in film and television isdisproportionately low and often negative. A study
(01:04):
by the USC Annenberg Inclusion Initiative foundthat from twenty seventeen to twenty nineteen,
less than two percent of speaking charactersin top grossing films where Muslim. Moreover,
when Muslims do appear on screen,they frequently are portrayed in stereotypical roles
related to terrorism and violence, contributingto a false narrative and widespread Islamophobia and
(01:30):
a deep misunderstanding. Another critical topicis the intersection of modern day feminism and
cultural identity. Women, particularly thosefrom minority communities, face unique challenges as
they navigate the complexities of cultural expectationsand the broader feminist movement. The struggle
to balance cultural heritage with the desirefor gender equality is a narrative that resonates
(01:53):
deeply across various communities, not justthe Muslim but definitely includes the Muslim Amamerican
experience. Art has long been apowerful tool for social change, providing a
platform for marginalized voices and offering newperspective on entrenched issues. From theater to
film, to visual arts and literature. Creative expressions have the ability to humanize
(02:16):
abstract issues, making them more relatableand urgent to a broader audience. Isaa
Fatima is an award winning actor,filmmaker, and comedian. Isaa has successfully
transitioned her intimate stage play Dirty PackyLingerie into the critically acclaimed film American Ish,
the first romantic comedy about a MuslimAmerican family navigating life in America while
(02:38):
preserving their culture. Don't you wantus to have more than this? Be
something, yes, but first togo and get married and have children.
Then go be whatever you want.Dude, I'm never going to be able
to afford my own place. Home'snot that bad. It's a zoo,
(03:01):
Mariam, what's the purpose of yourvisit. I'm here to find a nice
Pakistani American doctor to marry. Jeez, study crue. The antaps aren't gonna
East themselves. I want to goto Harvard. That's the best peach program
in the country. I gotta tellyour room has really freak me out.
(03:24):
If you're gonna get a room,like, just put it only in your
room. Allah. These prices areridiculous. We will pay you twenty four
for every night. My daughters theythink they know everything best. You know
what, I'm a grown woman.Always don't let girls all covered up.
(03:45):
You're never going to get married withthat staff from your head. I don't
want to be with someone who doesn'tget my values. Our country is being
overrun by immigrants. You're working onthe Douglas Smarts account. I mean,
the guy is a racist. Igot a call from the hospital. I'm
gonna have to go with you.Don't need to marry the first guy who
(04:05):
shows interest in you. Everybody's gonnaget what they want. This is America
Active dream Blending acting with activism.ISAA uses her work to challenge stereotypes,
(04:31):
promote understanding, and highlight the experiencesof modern Muslim American women, ladies and
gentlemen. Please welcome is Issa Fatima. Hello, Hello, Hello, Oh
my gosh, I'm so excited tosee you. How are you. I'm
great, what an exciting welcome.Thank you so much for having me.
(04:54):
Thank you, Thank you. Sotoday I think you're talking to us from
New York, Yes, or areyou in the world today? I am
in New York City, very loudNew York City. You're probably gonna her
sirens while we're on this call toso you know, right outside that window
over there, No worries, it'lljust make it feel all the more real,
right, authentic, authentic, exactly. So I really appreciate you taking
(05:15):
the time to be part of thisepisode and be a voice on this conversation.
You know, first off, Ihave to let the audience know how
I actually came to learn about you. Was watching American Ish. I was,
oh, my godness, it's sucha good story and I was crying
after I watched it, because weneed more films like that. So I'm
very excited for my audience to learnabout you, learn about your journey getting
(05:39):
there. But I just have topreface it with this. You know,
I am so grateful for artists likeyou, women like you, Muslims like
you. Everything New Yorker is likeyou, everything in between, because you
make me smile and cry feeling represented, you know, on the screen.
So thank you for that. Ireally appreciate that. Thank you for that.
(06:00):
Oh my goodness, that's amazing.That's the whole point. That's why
we make the heart we make youknow. Thank you for saying that.
And I know it's not easy,so very hard, very hard. It's
like pushing a thing uphill that's likeconstantly falling apart and you had to gather
it up again and push it upsome more. Right, Yes, yes,
I do know what you mean.So let's talk a little bit about
like your early life and your careershift, because you did have one.
(06:24):
You originally were working as a microbiologistand an ADS engineer at Google. It's
so crazy, and then you startedbeginning pursuing the art. So tell us
how did that happen. I didmy undergrad in microbiology and then I kind
of very quickly shifted because I washaving trouble finding jobs and my older brother
was like, hey, you knowwhat, it is really hot, and
so I was like, okay.So I went to graduate school for computer
(06:46):
information systems and got this dual businesstech degree that landed me at Google.
And it was like, you know, the job of like my dad's dreams
and my brother's dreams, and Ithought it was my dream for a while.
I really bought it because they wereso exc In fact, all the
men in my life were so thrilledwith me getting that job. And I
was like, oh, yeah,I want that job. And then I
(07:06):
didn't. It was like very painful. It was like a slow death every
day while I was there. Idecided to kind of pursue acting on the
side for fun, and I tooka class at in my U in the
evenings, and that just led toa whole career you know, in that
direction. Eventually, you know,it's funny because those experience you draw and
I'm like you have in American issyou have like the corporate worker. You
(07:28):
know, that's part of Google rightat Google. It's hard to believe.
Yeah, but that was that.Yeah, no, but I know,
I remember there was a time inmy life where having the suit and having
an ID card with my picture,even though I always hated the picture,
right, like the picture is alwaysthe worst, but like, you know,
just feeling like I'm contributing to theworld and I'm being a grown up
and I'm doing boardroom stuff. Andthen after a while it was like,
(07:50):
Okay, this is just not me. Yeah. I mean I think when
I was there, I really boughtinto this idea that I was saving the
world somehow because I worked at Google. It's just like a brainwashing that almost
happens. But yeah, you mademe think this is an off question.
But like, because I know you'rea humanitarian, I know that you're a
person who really cares about things happeningin the world to other people. Just
(08:11):
recently, I'm curious what your thoughtsare on watching Google's behavior. I know
that they've arrested they've fired, they'veyou know, what do you think about
that? If you work there now? I guess that's a better question.
If you work there now, whatdo you feel like you would be doing?
Do you feel like you'd be walkingout or do you feel like you
would just be part of Yeah,I really hope that I would be walking
out. You know, honestly,the Google back then wouldn't have even behaved
(08:33):
this way. I'm like shocked atthe behavior, you know, that's coming
out of that because it was alwaysabout like building community, helping other people.
It's shocking almost. I don't evenknow what to make of it.
In fact, the people I workwith they're not even there anymore, so
I don't even know. So thankyou for answering that, because I was
just curious. I'm like, oh, that's right. She was like Google,
and then you decided to start You'vemade dirty packing lingerie. So you
(08:56):
went to the stage first. Yeah, it was the only thing I knew.
I did theater stage stuff in highschool, and I knew that was
a I think I knew it wasa calling, but I didn't quite understand
it. I didn't know how topursue it, so I never I never
did. Yeah, I mean Inever set out to make films or TV.
In fact, I remember when Ifirst somebody suggested like doing commercials or
(09:18):
getting a commercial agent, which isbasically like how I make all of my
living these days. But I poopooed the idea. I was like,
Oh, that's not real acting.What is that? So, you know,
like I did theatre. It wasvery there Sabbia about doing that.
But it's interesting. Yeah, Imean me as an artist, I've grown
so much and just realized how youreached different audiences with different mediums and it's
(09:39):
all acting. But yeah, yeah, we'll let nobody try to look down
their nose at theater, to bequite honest, because it's one thing to
be on set and be able todo a retake. It is a whole
nother appreciation for We had a previousguest is Michael Nori, who was the
guy, the hot guy in FlashDance Right with Them, Yeah, and
he did Victor VI and I rememberasking him, like, what was his
(10:01):
best piece of advice and he's like, always be on time. And when
I related it to his experience intheater, I was like, yeah,
because I bet if you are noton time you're messing up everything. It's
like to do it repeatedly in frontof an audience, a live audience,
all the time, Like I justI have a lot of respect. Let's
talk about the origins of Dirty PackingLingerie and it's impact as a stage play.
(10:24):
I actually developed it in a classwith Matt Hoberman first and then Win
Handman, where I kind of likedeveloped the acting bits, and then like
found was really incredibly lucky to findthis amazing director who kind of stayed with
the play for many years, EricaGould. We kind of further shaped it
together and it was part of aFrench festival at New York. And before
(10:48):
then I'd done like a few plays, but nothing like this, not like
a role where for an hour,I'm the only person on stage. That's
a lot. It's a big like. It just takes a lot, a
lot, It asks a lot ofyou. As at that there was a
reporter from the Wall Street Journal thatcame out and did a feature in the
Sunday section for the Wall Street Journeyin the religion section. After that,
and PR picked up the story onthat Monday, and by that like Tuesday
(11:11):
or Wednesday, when we opened ourrun was sold out. What was so
amazing was just having Muslim and nonMuslim, like Asian, White, Jewish,
whoever, all the black, allthese people just kind of coming up
to us and saying I saw myselfreflected in that experience, and I think
I kind of understood. I waslike, Oh, there's something more here.
(11:33):
I think this is these themes,these characters, these people, like
this is kind of like a universalappeal. Maybe I do remember when that
run ended. I was like,oh, I guess it's over. Okay,
Well back to my job at Google, you know, for a little
bit. Yeah. Yeah, butthen that's not where it ended. No,
it's not where it ended at all. It's the largest South Asian festival
(11:54):
of arts that used to happen inToronto, and we got in there.
So we went and it was atwo hundred seed theater sold out. We
did nothing, We just went soldit out. There was in fact a
fight outside I heard about that waslike people wanting to get in. It
was amazing. I was like,oh, I can't why is this is
crazy? How this is happening.So then American Ish comes about. Yeah,
(12:16):
So I went to Edinburgh, cameback. I had a couple of
shows at the Cherry Lane Theater inNew York City. I was performing there
and this super sweet filmmaker approached meafter one of those shows. And she's
a Egyptian American. Her name isAmanzawari. She has had done a bunch
of short films at that point andhad won like an Emmy Award for one
(12:39):
of her shorts and stuff, andshe was like, hey, you know,
what would do you ever think aboutlike turning these characters into a feature?
And I honestly was really thinking heavilyabout that, and I was like,
the only way to really reach alot of people is through pop culture
and in America, like that's likeAmerican films or music. Right. The
film was released last year with Sonyand that was our ten year anniversary of
(13:01):
our watching that play. Yeah,and you had a great ensemble cast.
I know, you remember George Wentwas in there. You had Moammar his
has his little role in there,a great role. He's so great in
it. I know, like,yeah, yeah, hire Moramer for more
rom coms, guys. He's sogreat in that role, really shines.
But also like appeal and you knowthe character who plays Miriam's character I mean
(13:22):
these guys are all like younger actorsthat are really up and coming and are
doing like a bunch of TV,you know, and are such phenomenon actors
like Selena Kureshi. And then thetwo kind of Bollywood people who are really
well known in Bollywood who were init as well, the woman who played
my mom the Led Debate. I'veactually like grown up watching her films,
so it was just such a AndDavid Rashi a Jay and I do,
(13:46):
who is such a star and isin like every single Sundance film, every
whatever. I've seen him do Shakespeareand then he you know, turns around
and does the party place in ourfilm. It's just amazing. I know,
I've watched it at least twice,so you know, well American,
it's just been just amazing. Imean we ended up doing like over thirty
festivals. We won like twenty fivefestival awards. Eventually the film was picked
(14:11):
up by Sony International for worldwide distributionand we also had limited theatrical release in
the US. I mean, itwas like our all of our you know,
wildest dreams kind of coming true becauseyou know, as filmmakers and we
know where the state of film isright now, like theatrical is almost impossible.
You know, films are not reallygetting bought at like even big festival
like Sundance, Tribeca, South By. No one's buying indie film. So
(14:35):
it's kind of amazing the journey withthis film that's happened. I mean,
you are right, it's still adifficult marketplace internationally, it's picking up,
which is good. I'm actually happyto see that platforms are opening up.
Like I just watched now, I'mgoing to forget the name because of course
that's what my brain is going todo right now. The women who were
(14:56):
the original courtisans, yes, HiramandiKiamandi, right, and I loved I
watched the entire thing. There's anotherone that's on there now that I haven't
actually had time to watch. Ofcourse, they're also curating it for me,
because that's how these things work.Now, these platforms know everything that
I like, and of course it'sinternational. But what I'm saying is I
like that they're having it on there. I think that shows opportunity and promise
(15:20):
for our demographics. Aren't these minoritygroups of people who have our stories and
are also Americans. That's a thing. And I know that for a long
time, being Americans definitely tried tosell this idea of in order to be
American, you have to abandon yourcultural identity, and I just disagree with
that. Not everyone wants to bemessaged too. They don't want to be
(15:43):
beat over the head with you knowwhat we're trying to do, So you
do it in this lovely way whereit's very light. It's light hearted,
it's funny, it's comedy, it'sreal world things that anybody can relate to,
no matter where you're from. Blendingacting with activism, you know,
essentially act through art. How areyou using your film and television work to
(16:04):
address the stereotypes and promote the understandingof Muslim American women. Yeah, I
mean I think it's always for me. Art, for the things I create
always are about activism. I thinkit's by virtue of like being. You
know, I was at a panelonce and there was a white woman who
got up and she was much older, and she goes, she stood up
on the stage, I remember,and she goes, she goes that,
(16:26):
you know, this is her activism. She goes, because I'm a woman
and I'm older, and I'm onthe stage. That makes me an activist
because no one wants to see thisbody on the stage. It was really
interesting, and I was like,oh, I think it's just by virtue
of being who you are sometimes youjust get like pushed into this thing like
thing because I'm a woman, andI'm Muslim, and I you know,
(16:49):
grew up in the South or whatever. All of those combinations of me are
that I think, Yeah, it'sjust like the art that I created just
bends that way, you know,whether I wanted to or not. It's
just my lived experience in the worldright, sharing your art and sharing your
experiences you you know, like Isaid, you're inherently addressing those stereotypes because
(17:10):
you're showing them it's not what youthink. Like that, I think is
one of the biggest beautiful things aboutAmerican is no differently than like you know,
Rami Yusuf is done or more Amorhas done. They've shown folks,
we're dealing with the same stuff youare. We have the same emotions,
feelings even within you know, likethe standard people want to put when they
hear we're Muslim, right, Iknow, for me, Yeah, it
(17:33):
doesn't take any extra work to dothat because it's actually the truth. Right,
We're all just humans, are allall connected, we all want the
same things in life, right,And so I think that's the thing that's
sometimes somehow missing when other people aretelling our stories for us. They're always
looking at it, looking at usfrom like this outside lens, and they
(17:56):
think we're subhuman, right, Sothen that's how they write those characters.
But I think when the characters areactually written from people behind the camera are
Muslim, then we're able to capturethat nuance and that very specific experience,
and there's always there's universality in specificity. That's the whole thing, right,
you know. Okay, outside ofme telling you you know, I cried
(18:18):
over American ash and a beautiful happytears by the way happy Tears, what
have been some of the other experiencesand shared stories of people who have been
impacted by the work that you're doingand the representation that you're bringing. We
had an uncle at an event onetime, be like, he got up
and he was one of the firstpeople to speak, and it was so
touching and he was just like andyou know, and we didn't realize.
I think I didn't realize like kindof the intergenerational conversation and the importance of
(18:42):
it that's happening in the film.Like there's the mom character and then there's
these younger girls, but also withinthe girls, there's an age gap,
right, there's a seven eight yearage gap between the older sister and the
younger sister. So it's like allthese kind of different conversations. And this
uncle got up and he was justlike, you know, we really struggled
(19:03):
with raising like I think three daughters, he said, in the US,
and our daughters have really taught usa lot over the years, and they've
taught us like things that we dowe don't do right. And it's like,
I'm so grateful for this film andI'm so grateful for the conversation it's
having, But you know, Iwas just really touched by like not just
people who are Muslim and come fromthis background or able to kind of identify
(19:26):
and see themselves reflected, but it'sreally I think it's for anyone who feels
they've ever been othered in America,right, and you don't have to be
Muslim for that to that point,Like, have there been experiences where people
have been able to share with youthat watching the film cleared up misconceptions.
I will say, yeah, thisis okay. So I have so many
examples of this because we did sucha giant tour of the whole country,
(19:47):
and we traveled everywhere. When thefilm was in a certain place, we
went. So this was in Arkansas, the height of COVID. We were
just coming out of stuff. Oursecond festival ever, it's the Gina Davis
Festival in Bentonville, and there's awoman Muslim woman who lives there who'd posted
like a watch party at her housewith some of her neighbors, who none
of them are Muslim, none ofthem are brown even, And she said
(20:08):
her neighbor, who she's very goodfriends with, who's super Republican, was
like watched the film and then waslike at questions about we have a Trump
like character. Right, it's samMy character's boss in the film, and
he's very Republican leading and that's thewhole Like we wanted to set the film
against the backdrop of what was actuallyhappening in America, like post the Trump
(20:30):
election, because that's when the filmwas shot. And she was this woman
said to the Muslim lady, shegoes, I didn't realize Trump affected Muslims
in America this way at all.I was really surprised, right, but
then it was fascinating. So thiswoman actually wrote to us and then she
said, you know, we wereable to have a very open and honest
conversation and was really touching. Likethey all the group of them got together
(20:53):
and they were like, oh,I mean, okay, so emotional.
They were like, we're gonna likeracism and so with does It was just
like I was like, oh mygosh, Like you know, but that's
why you also like make something committedso you can like you can reach those
masses in that way, because Ithink preaching doesn't always work feminism in Islam.
(21:15):
Share with us your views on modernday feminism and how it intersects with
your identity as a Muslim American woman. Yeah, I mean, I think
feminism is such a loaded word,right because there's like we have all grown
up. I have grown up witha very westernized idea of what feminism means.
Because in the West, you know, just a few years ago,
(21:37):
there was the whole women taking offtheir tops right for their feminism and saying
this is my jihad or whatever.Prince of what was happening in Iran,
so, and I feel like itwas almost like being disrespectful, a little
bit disrespectful to Muslim women who docover up or their feminism. Right,
So covering up is your feminism inIslam in America at least, like the
(22:00):
Muslim women I know in America arecovering up for their feminism, right.
So it's it's such an interesting likedisconnect. I feel like, I remember
I was in Pakistan. It wasthe last time I was there, which
I just mentioned. I was touringwith the US State Department. I remember
we were going through all these villagesand I saw like so many miles and
miles of just like women working inthese villages with like carrying stuff on top
(22:22):
of their heads and men sitting oncharpeis smoking their shisha. N So I
was like, Wow, this isfeminism, This is feminine. These women
are freaking working all day long toprovide food for their families and these men
are not. This is feminine,this is so. I feel like feminism
looks like such different things depending onwhere you are and where you're from.
(22:45):
And it looks very different for aMuslim woman in America sometimes than it does
for others. And that sort ofthe film highlights that in a way,
right, there's a character we havethat does cover up, that does wear
hijab, and that is part ofour activism and her feminism. Yeah,
And to me, feminism is Ihave a choice and whether that should be
my choice, whether I want toor not. And I say this like
(23:07):
I just literally, like a fewdays ago on social media, you know,
a Muslim brother was like, Okay, if you're Muslim, why don't
you have hijab on? And I'mlike, okay, here you go.
Here you go, because I alreadygot a dad and a husband. You
are neither, So go find awall to talk to because it ain't going
to be me, right, Like, I think his jab is a beautiful
thing. And if you want,you should, I'm when I'm in Dubai.
(23:30):
Actually, I love being able towear my my bias and like,
just chill. They're cute, they'rekind of hot. They are super hot.
I really I brought one back.I want to wear it around just
you know. It's like I haveone super sep We'll get together and we'll
go down and have to We'll justwear it. Yeah, And then you
have you know, your character who'slike this modern woman. Hey, she's
(23:51):
she has dates with men she's dating, and in no way diminishes either of
those characters whatever they choose as Muslimwomen, because our journeys are our own,
our dean, as they say,under our own yes. And I
think as a filmmaker like that wasthe most important thing to me. I
was just like, well, thosecharacters that come from dirty packy launcher right
(24:12):
the play. So as just thewriter, playwright, all the things,
it's so important if I'm going towrite. Look, first of all,
I'm just one person. I cannever you know, encompass every single person's
experience with Islam, and I'm notrepresenting all of that. But something I
really wanted to do with the playand the film both was show different sides
of this. And that comes fromjust my own personal experience. Within my
(24:36):
own family. We have such adiver worth three sisters, you know.
I my mom is a super Hijabiwho kind of grew up in Saudi Arabia,
and so like, well, thecult, the whole thing, because
that's the cultural thing there, right, the nikob and the whole thing.
That's the culture. And so youknow, I have sisters in law who
cover you know, I flirted withthe idea of hijab for a little while
(24:56):
when I was a younger teenager andthen decided to take it off. So
all those experiences are kind of like, I'm like, Okay, you know,
I have a lot of tremendous respectfor people who do it and people
who don't. It's a choice,and I think that to me, if
I were to describe what feminism is, that's what it is. It's a
choice. Yeah, me, yousaid it earlier, one hundred percent.
And I wanted to make sure likewe showed that because I think like the
(25:18):
Western media is obsession with like Muslimwomen is like, oh, they're a
jobby, but then also they're batteredand abused, and how can we save
them? Yes, they're so oppressed. Now, it shouldn't be like further
from the truth. Like honestly,look, in my personal experience, I
don't know any woman who wears ahit job who's like oppressed. I don't.
So maybe I'm not to say thatthat that doesn't exist, that exists
(25:38):
in every every place, but yeah, but I'm like, well, why
don't we ever see the other side? What is the other side? And
we don't see it? So thatwas really important. I mean, and
when you talk about women, feminismand oppression, a Stepford wife who has
to look a certain way, whohas their on is if you want it
like, it's another kind of oppression. That's another kind of oppression. And
(25:59):
you know, women have been usedas currency. I mean, I think
that when people forget to step backand look at the history of women in
the world and in society, we'vebeen used as currency. We have fought
for our rights. In fact,you know, I had someone who told
me recently when we were talking aboutthe college campus encampments. You know,
he was like, well, Ijust don't believe it wasn't that because there
(26:21):
was violence that I saw at theencampments, but there was violence perpetrated against
them. And it was interesting though, because he said, well, you
shouldn't have to be violent to getyour point across, and I'm like,
well no. But unfortunately, whenit comes to people standing up for themselves,
if you look at images of womenduring the women's suffrage movement in America,
they were getting beat on the street. Women were getting harassed by men.
(26:41):
It was not this beautiful, Oh, women are out there on the
street looking for their rights. We'regoing to support them. No, it
was the complete opposite anytime, civilrights right, no matter what. But
with women, we've definitely have beenmarried off for you know, people always
want to say, like, well, Muslims do this, okay, have
you you've seen what other cultures havedone with their women, because in Europe
(27:03):
and America and the beginning, peoplewere just married off. But like whatever
an alliance, money propactly were property. Women were property. They didn't have
any rights. This is just America, not that long ago, right,
absolutely, so, it's just itis. It's always an interesting conversation when
we come to how we get ourrights, how we stand up for ourselves,
the resistance or excuse me, thepushback that we get for that,
(27:26):
and then the resiliency that's really hadto be endured by some incredible women in
history and supporting men who have beenthere to get where we are today.
Well, but also let's not forgetlike Islam gave women the right to vote
way before European women had that right. Yes, right, it's like yeah,
and own property and own their propertyand not be treated like cattle.
(27:48):
Right. Muslim women had those rightslike centuries before anyone else had those rights
so it's interesting and I feel like, again, who's telling the story and
how are these things getting lost intranslation? You know, which is interesting?
All the is something you said earlier, and I've myself quoted that USCN
and Burg study many times. Andwhat I've realized, like thinking more about
(28:08):
that is this, Yes, likea little over one percent, maybe more,
of the population in America is Muslim, but American media is global media,
and twenty five percent of the world'spopulation is Muslim, and Islam is
the second largest growing religion in theworld, behind Christianity at like thirty percent.
Right, So it's like, whenwe are importing our culture to the
(28:32):
rest of the world and we're showingMuslims as terrorists, that's a problem,
right, It becomes a global issue. Right. No, absolutely, we
need to change these images on ourscreen for the world, not just for
the one point five percent of thepopulation that's Muslim in America, but really
the global population and that's the majority. No. I love that you say
that. Notice that I said atleast because I never trust these statistics.
(28:53):
Right, there's a lot of people, there's a lot of people that won't
even you know, for fear whenit comes to public statistics not admit,
you know, for fear of whatthat is going to mean to their families,
because, like you said, yeah, no, Trump was trying to
kick out Muslims drink during his youknow, little moment. Well, not
only not only that, I thinkforever. I was just talking to an
Arab friend of mine and they werelike, yeah, you know, on
(29:15):
the consensus when they would come out. When I was growing up, my
family would always say we were whitebecause they're from the Caucases, right,
what, fine, Okay, youare white technically, I get it.
But they're also Muslims. So it'sinteresting, like we don't even know who's
reporting. We really don't. Theydon't. I mean, same thing with
Mexican Americans. For a long time, they were just they were considered white.
So our statistics do not properly reflectthe diversity within our country. So
(29:38):
that's one thing. But you know, on that, I agree with you,
and and I love the way thatyou've been able to, you know,
leverage and utilize your skills and showcaseto the world these stories. What
has ever been the most challenging partof navigating that dual identity for you?
(29:59):
I think I was younger it's becauseof this, right, It's because we
from our parents who are immigrants,were never taught like we're American. They
were always like, oh, you'rePakistani, so and then the whole world
around you is also telling you you'renot American. Right, So I think
as a young kid, that wasa really complex thing, and honestly,
like as a Muslim identity, Iremember when this shift happened exactly. So
(30:22):
I told you earlier. I wasdoing my show in twenty eleven, and
so often. It wasn't until Iwas like doing the show and I was
on a panel and I think itwas at Arkansas University of Arkansas. They
had a panel and afterwards they hada reception and they've made a cake and
they put a flag of Pakistan anda flag of America on it half and
half. And I was like,oh, that's like me. I'm not
(30:48):
like one thing, am I.And shortly after that, this must have
been in twenty fifteen or twenty sixteen. Shortly after that, the media,
the world, everybody started talking aboutthis Muslim America an identity. If you
really seriously charted, it wasn't inour everyday conversation to say, because we
are sort of like the youngest immigrantsto America, right, like Italian Americans
(31:11):
and you know, Irish Americans,they came a little bit longer than us.
So we're sort of still like findingthe language to define ourselves. And
I think it's taken me as anadult to be like, oh, I
am American, I am Pakistani.You know, I was actually born in
Saudi Arabia, so I was like, I'm also part I identify as Saudia.
I lived there for a little bitwhen I was a young kid.
(31:33):
I also grew up in Mississippi,and now I'm a New Yorker. So
I am all of those identities andit is okay. It's okay to be
all of those things. I couldnot agree with you more. It is
absolutely okay. And I think that'sthe that's the thing people have to understand.
It's a shared experience now because youknow, especially with the way immigration
has worked in the last hundred years, even more so with planes and the
(31:55):
way you know, it's just it'sour DNA actual Like how I talk about
how my DNA now comes back fromsixteen major demographics or regions that is a
reflection of America at the end ofthe day. To me, I am
just very representative of you know,but like you having grown up having dark
haired, dark eyes, and peoplealways been like, so where are you
from? You couldn't possibly be American, right, And I'm like, well,
(32:17):
what do you what do you meanby that? Like, you know,
I could have that conversation over andover again because it's just no,
and I get it. And Ialso grew up and it's weirdly in a
tiny little town in the South whereeveryone was blonde, whether naturally or bottle
I don't know. But then reallyI stood out. They're like, what
are you? Probably a lot ofbottle too, everybody does there. But
(32:39):
anyway, yeah, and I think, you know that's perfect, Like you're
everybody's a little bit american Ish,right, We're like a We're like a
you know, it's the whole rainbow. It's not just one thing. It's
just like all the things, allthe ways. You know. Yeah.
No, And if anything, I'velearned over time to appreciate that I am
different. I think there was atime when I just wanted to be It's
(33:00):
I grew up in you know,when I was younger, I lived in
Napa, and Napa is a veryyou know, Caucasian town, especially when
I was growing up there and itfelt, you know, I used to
want to be a Jennifer or aMonica or you know, Melissa, you
know, but then I grew upand I'm like, I'm so glad I'm
not that. What are your finalthoughts messages that you'd like to convey to
(33:22):
not just the Muslim community, butMuslim women community out there that are still
struggling with feeling comfortable in their skinand feeling comfortable with knowing that you know,
they are beautiful just as they are. They are just you know,
like, what is your message tothem? Follow your heart? I know
it's really a hard thing to do, and like that's one of the reasons
I actually made this film because inthe making of it, I realized I
(33:45):
was like, oh my god,it's like so hard. I identify as
like the images of like romance andbeauty that we see in rom comms.
It's always like the dude wants theblonde woman, always right, right,
So like there's something about Mary.All the films you've grown up, but
like even older, like you've gotmale all those problematic films that we love
and now we're like that dude wasgas lighting or the whole time that was
(34:07):
really now we have a word forit, write before we did it.
But yeah, but all those womenare always like white and blonde. So
it honestly in the making of it, what I've realized is in talking to
other women as well, like theyalways like identified their themselves and their own
sense of beauty as like proximity towhiteness, like how white is your skin?
(34:29):
How blonde can you be? Canyou dye your hair? All those
things? And I think, youknow, it's important to have these images
of like brown women falling in lovewith whether other brown men, and brown
men wanting these brown women back,you know, in a romantic sort of
way. So I think just youknow, know that you're enough, that
(34:49):
you're unique, and just you know, I mean, do the thing you
want to do with your life.Man, don't let anybody else hold you
back. Hmm. I love that. And I think you've shown that,
you show that in your work.You share that with what you do,
I know with your play, andI know with the American Ish, and
I know you have other things comingforth. You're not done. I saw
you on a commercial the other day. I was like you know, I
(35:10):
know you are. Oh my goodness, Alia, thank goodness for that commercial
girl. It's like it's hard outthere right now with sag Aftra and the
strikes, and thank goodness is commercialhas been running for a while. So
yeah, that's amazing. Okay,the thing I used to pooh pooh where
I'm like, God, Hey,if it's good enough for Sam Jackson or
Jennifer Garner, I mean, it'sgood enough for you. Like you know,
(35:30):
I want to thank you so muchfor being here with us today.
I know I could talk to youfor hours and hours, but I appreciate
your time. And yeah, andjust before I do it for anyone who
wants to follow you on social mediaand anywhere else that people can go to
support and follow your work. Sure, so I'm just my full name,
Issa Fatima on all the social medias. You can also follow some of my
(35:51):
other work. You can follow AmericanishFilm. You can also follow our stand
up slash TV pilot that's on FusePlus right now called Muslim Girls DTF.
We're going to be touring with thatshow all around the world, so we'll
probably be coming and the US,so we'll probably be coming to one of
the cities where you live pretty soon. I wish you all the luck and
(36:12):
I can't wait to have you backagain and next time in person, will
get you when you're in LA,next time in the studios. But thank
you, thank you so much,no, no, thank you so much
for being with us today. Andto our audience at home, listen,
you definitely want to check out herwork. You want to support these films.
I even tell my kids all thetime, like, even just out
of curiosity, go support it sothat you give other people the opportunity to
(36:32):
make this type of content over andover again. As a woman, I
want to say that I just reallyappreciate the representation that ISAA has brought to
the world, for her community,for our community in different ways. And
you know, I just I hopethat you've heard a little bit of our
conversation and said, oh, maybeI don't know everything that there is to
(36:53):
know, or maybe you are aMuslim American or a Muslim woman who's like,
okay, thank you, they're givingme permission to be myself. Yes,
well, not that we had togive you permission, You've had it
all along. But you know,just just live life the way you feel
is best serving you and your community. Keep your eyes on the prize is
(37:13):
your dean, your life, yourbenefits, and your family. So with
that, I'm just going to saythank you so much for being here with
us today, and thank you somuch for letting us be unsugarcoated. Take care,
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