September 6, 2024 • 34 mins
In this compelling episode of UNSUGARCOATED with Aalia, we sit down with Jewish American activist Simone Zimmerman, co-founder of IfNotNow and a key figure in the documentary “Israelism.” Simone sheds light on the deeply entrenched issues stemming from Zionist ideology and its devastating impact on both Palestinian and Jewish lives. We explore the ongoing genocide in Palestine, the global systems that profit from war, and the moral imperative to challenge these narratives. Through her courageous advocacy, Simone inspires us to confront injustice, question the status quo, and fight for a world where true safety and peace are rooted in justice, equality, and mutual respect.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
From UBN Studios. You're listening to Unsugarcoated with Alia, bringing
you interviews with public figures and inspirational people speaking on
self improvement with empowered themes, and I'm your host, Ali Alaneus.
Hello everybody, and welcome back to another episode of Unsugarcoated
with Alia. I'm so happy to be here with you today.
(00:24):
And I got to say, even though all of these
episodes have at times been heart wrenching, they have also
been extremely uplifting and amazing to sit down with so
many people that care about humanity as much as I do,
that they are compelled to get up and take action
every single day. In today's episode, we are going to
(00:44):
delve deep into the heart again of one of the
most pressing and contentious issues of our time, the ongoing
genocide in Palestine.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
And I can.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Guarantee you that even if by the time this episode
is released that there is a cease fire in place,
and I'm going to put air quotes around that the
issue is not over for the Palestinian people. It's not
over until they see liberation. They will continue to suffer
at the hands of Zionism, no differently than they have
been for the past seventy six plus years. This is
(01:13):
more than just a regional dispute. It is a microcosm
of a broader, more sinister reality. It's a stark reminder
that colonization is not a relic of the past, but
a present day blight perpetuated by those who see war
as a profitable enterprise. As I watch our government try
to push through an eighteen billion dollar sale of F
(01:34):
fifteen fighter jets to Israel, ostensibly for defense, I see
the true motive behind these transactions. It's not about protection
or peace. It's about profit. It's about sustaining the war machine,
a machine that thrives on the suffering of innocence. This
isn't just about Palestine, ladies and gentlemen. This is about
a global system where war is a business, and business
(01:54):
is booming. Fascism, the sworn enemy of democracy, is rearing
its ugly head once again. It is insidious, cloaked in
the guise of national security and patriotism. But make no mistake,
its goal is to divide and conquer, to incite hatred
and fear. For war to be profitable, there must be
an enemy. There must be an anger, a deep seated,
(02:15):
consuming rage that blinds us to our common humanity. They
need us to hate and to fear and see the
other as less than human. But here's the kicker. These wars,
this hatred, this fear, they're never about issues that truly
threaten our quality of life. They're distractions designed to keep
us from pushing for a better society. We are ponds
(02:35):
in a game that enriches the few at the expense
of many. Innocent lives are destroyed, Communities are torn apart,
and for what so that a select few can line
their pockets with blood money. Today we speak with Simone Zimmermann,
a brave voice challenging the status quo. Her work with
If Not Now and her participation in the film Israelism
highlight the deepening generational divide over modern Jewish identity and
(02:59):
the growing awareness of the injustices faced by Palestinians. Join
us today as we uncover the truth, confront the uncomfortable,
and stand in solidarity not only with the Jewish community
that are standing strong saying not in my name, but
also for all of us who fight for justice, because
everyone deserves the same level of dignity and respect, because
(03:20):
we are not above others, Because the time for change
is now. So let's really quick. I'm going to do
something a little bit different today. We're going to show
the trailer of Israelism, and then we're going to bring
on Simone Zimmermann.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
Some American Jews who come here say, we came to
Israel and we left from Palestine.
Speaker 4 (03:40):
The non Jewish community does not understand our obsession with Israel.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
I went to a Jewish day.
Speaker 4 (03:48):
School, summer camp, organized trips to Israel.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Israel too, Israeli soldiers. They're hot, they're awesome, they're strong.
Speaker 5 (04:02):
We actually have had quite a few of our former
students join the idea.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
These are kids, these are eighteen nineteen year olds. Amazing.
Speaker 4 (04:10):
I told my parents I don't even need to apply
to college. I'm going to just join the Israeli military.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
Ten percent of my graduating class joined the Israeli Army.
Speaker 4 (04:19):
We were deployed to the West Bank.
Speaker 3 (04:22):
I don't think I realized the extent to which what
I would come to see on the ground would really
shock me and horrify me.
Speaker 5 (04:34):
When people look at the West Bank today and say
this isn't apartheid system, it's not just throwing out a word.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Palestinians live in, day in, day out, without experiencing a
day of freedom.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
You've see what non democracy looks like.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
What we've been told is that the only way that.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
Jews can be safe is if Palestinians are not safe.
The more I learned about that, the more I came
to see that as a lie. In the Jewish community, Oh,
there's been a striking change.
Speaker 4 (05:06):
They're really angry at the way they were indoctrinated, justifiably.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
Self when we talk about we're losing the kids, we
lost them.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
I think they're a little super naive.
Speaker 5 (05:17):
They timely cut against the gray. Are you going to
catch hail?
Speaker 2 (05:21):
You are a self loathing jew, o killer.
Speaker 5 (05:23):
S anti Semitic do the way that we talk about
anti Semitism isn't about protecting Jews, It's about protecting Israel.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
How dangerous is that band will do anything to preserve
unconditional support for Israel.
Speaker 5 (05:37):
The great irony is that there actually is research in
anti Semitism. History is not going to judge us.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
Kindly, ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Jewish American activist, co
founder of if Not Now Org and one of the
most incredible souls featured in Israelism.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Some one Zimmerman.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
Oh my goodness, I am emotional just watching that trailer
some on I have to I mean, thank you so
much for speaking with me today. This film, to me
has been an incredible the timing of it. You know,
this was done before you know, the uprising that occurred
on October seventh. How has I mean, aside from what's
(06:29):
discussed in the film itself, how has the response been
for you? What has your work life, what has life
been us since Israelism has come out?
Speaker 3 (06:37):
Thanks so much for having me here, Elliott. It's it's
really an honor. And I guess I just want to
like resonate for a minute with your emotions.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
Which is that this is an.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
Incredibly emotional time. You know, I'm just thinking about that.
Right before I got on here to record this with you,
I was just you know, seeing it was just another
round of tweets on my social media feed about people
feeling like they're at their limits with seeing the bodies
of Palestinian children ripped apart in the Gaza strip.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
And I think it.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
Actually just makes a lot of sense that all of
us are like airying this grief that is like right
at the edge all the time. So I'm right there
with you, and I guess I can say like I'm
in terms of the film, I'm just incredibly overwhelmed and
moved and feel very humbled and blessed that this film
(07:30):
has been able to be a tool during this time.
I think one of the really painful conversations I've had
with a lot of people that I've been in the
movement with over the last eight months is, you know,
talking about this horrible feeling that you never really want
to be like, and I told you so person. I
also know that's like, that's not a good way to
bring people into movement work. But there is a reality
(07:53):
that the grinding oppression of Israeli apartheid and the decades
of oppression that Palestinians have had to live under is
the context of this moment that we're living through, right.
I Mean, you mentioned before already this idea that like
a ceasefire isn't going to solve.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
All of our problems, right.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
And that's because there's been there is this, you know,
decades of oppression. You know, I've heard other people say,
like the idea that if a ceasefire happened, we would
just go back to calm is not true exactly. That's
all a long way to say that, you know, I've
been on this journey of kind of confronting that reality
over the last fifteen years. I think this is you know,
(08:36):
in a lot of ways, the kind of warp perception
of Israel is a particular experience that's happening in the
American Jewish community, but I think it's pretty fair to
say that it's also a very American experience. Much of
the mythology that American Jews are raised with is actually
a mythology that Americans.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
Are also raised with about Israel.
Speaker 3 (08:56):
So confronting, I think part of what's so painful about
this moment is just being American and that our government
is funding this nightmare. I'm so glad that this film
can be a tool for people who are asking themselves
questions and this time and trying to make sense of
you know, what are the narratives that have been that
I've been shielded from, what are the misperceptions that I
(09:16):
had about the situation, and what does it look like
to kind of begin to tell different stories and to
search for a different way of understanding and relating to
this thing.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
You know, this this perpetuated narrative of like, well, Israel
has to exist because there's all this chaos in the
Middle East without acknowledging or recognizing that while we've been
getting our lattes and plates classes, the West has largely
had a hand in creating that very chaos. And as
an American, we are like, you know, you have this
set an awakening of like, oh my gosh, why don't
(09:47):
want my tax dollars going to that? Or I don't
want to be the bad guy. But the history of
America includes demonizing Native Americans and wiping them out, It
includes enslaving people. There was this deep seated animosity and
superiority complex that has is still being widowed away at
(10:08):
time over time. So you know, I hope for change
within the Israeli community, but as an American, I'm also
aware that there's a lot of people that look at
us saying, well, you guys have your own history, why
should you be judging israelis right? And I'm curious if
you've come across those type of comments, and if you have,
what you're feeling about is when you are now advocating
(10:30):
for human rights of Palestinians.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
You know, I think part of what has been so
powerful about the movement for Palestinian freedom is the way
that connections have been drawn to so many other issues
of oppression, racism, colonialism, militarization. And so I think that
Americans who are having this awakening around Palestine like should
be also asking questions about what are other systems of
(10:53):
oppression within this country that I'm also part of right
to not actually say that this is a uniquely awful
thing that is happening over there that has nothing to
do with the other uniquely awful things happening in this country. Frankly, right,
I think there's a way of that people say that
to kind of like stop people from taking action. But
I think there are other ways to say that that
(11:14):
are about inviting in. And I can say in terms
of my own political journey, like I really feel very
strongly that like I could see my own kind of
like political journey like almost pingponging back and forth between
you know, like the first time that I actually learned
about mass like issues of mass incarceration was actually in Palestine. Right,
(11:34):
That Israeli military holds thousands of Palestinians in administrative detention,
and you know the percentages of Palestinian Palestinians in the
West Banks that have been through the military court system,
you know, without fair trial like all those things, that
the percentages are just like astronomically high. But then it
was like when I came back to the US and
I read the new Jim Crow and then I understood, oh,
(11:56):
this is also you know, actually something that we have
here too, and to then you know, have this political
awakening that was catalyzed by the Black Lives Matter movement, right,
and what does it mean that then, you know, black
activists in America talk about that we have to reckon
with the foundation of slavery and the and white supremacy
that's at the roots of this country. And that actually
(12:19):
helped me better understand what does it mean when Palestinians
talk about the Nekba and the like founding catastrophe and
historic injustices.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Like at the root of this issue that have to
be rectified.
Speaker 3 (12:31):
And so that is a way that I think it's
like an invitation, right to understand the connectedness of these
different issues instead of using it to kind of like
either to silence someone and to shut down their activism
or to say like, oh, yeah, that thing over there
is so awful.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
But it also has nothing to do with me.
Speaker 3 (12:51):
Like I think part of what this moment is about
actually seeing how much we are complicit.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
In all of these things.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Well said, and yeah, and also we'd like to think
I think that if we were around during those times,
in those in those you know, highly highly difficult times,
that we would have been the ones to stand up
and say no, I'm not going to be part of it,
and you know, and I think that that takes such bravery,
and as you know, people like yourself are now and
to me, documentaries are the new, you know, way of journalism.
(13:19):
They're incredibly valuable. I watched In Israelism twice. I think
that every Jewish person should watch it, and both both
Jewish and non Jewish, by the way, because like to
your point, even for the Americans to understand what have
I been told about these people, this region, the true history,
And I feel that there's there's so many great content
(13:41):
out there. Tantura is one as well, that's amazing walled off.
These are all great opportunities for people, and there's plenty
of opportunity, I guess, to get educated and to see
the different parts I felt Israelism was really great on
the modern aspect of it, like Tintora was more great
on the kind of the more historic, Like you said,
going closer to the knack, you know, in this film,
(14:02):
a common belief is that Jews can only be safe
if Israel exists. What is your belief based on your
experiencing and considering the role of Zionism in this narrative?
Speaker 3 (14:14):
Your comment before made me think about is you know
also kind of you know, both as a Jew and
as an American. I think something that this moment is
also making me think a lot about is about the
ways that we have Western countries who outsource their guilt
about the Holocaust onto Israel, and so much of the
(14:35):
narrative around that we that we hear in Western countries
about supporting Israel often goes back to their responsibility in
a post Holocaust world. That is kind of how I
like segue into a more direct answer to your question.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
Which is that, like, to me, the lessons of the.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
Last hundred years is that we have to protect basic
human rights, freedom, dignity, justice for all people, and that
you can't rectify one injustice by creating another injustice. I
think it's a real tragedy of history. First of all,
I want to say, it makes perfect sense to me.
Why you know, Zionism was such an appealing project for
so many Jews, And you know, I can say in
(15:11):
my own family that that it's not It wasn't just
an idea, right it did? You know, moving to pre
state Palestine offered an escape route for people in my
own family, and that always came at the cost of
another people, another society.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
And I do not believe that any.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
Jews are safer by living in this situation where to
have this, you know, I don't even want to call
it safety, because the truth is is that I think
Israeli Jews overwhelmingly do not feel.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
Safe right now.
Speaker 3 (15:42):
And everything we've seen over the last eight months is
how how fragile that idea of safety even was right,
And so the idea that you can get safety for
one group of people by subjecting in others to oppression,
ethnic cleansing, apartheid, genocide, that is not a real path
(16:02):
to safety. And we're just seeing how much more unstable
and how much more unsafe everyone in that region is
because of what is happening now.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
You know, I have to say I always have to
explain to people too when we when we talk about
this land, and I think that people don't understand the size,
Like I think ratio is a big thing.
Speaker 5 (16:21):
Right.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
You look at another you look at a map, you think, oh,
it's a country. There's plenty of space. Why don't the
Palestinians just go somewhere else? Isn't there you know? Uh,
isn't there a solution to this problem that's so easy?
I don't think a lot of people realize that the
entire area that we're talking about Israel and occupied Palestine
could fit into California and there would still be room left.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
This bit been to California many times over, right, exactly.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
And I think that when I've told when I've told
people that, they're kind of shocked, They're like, really, wait,
hold on, I don't I'm thinking there's so much more land,
and I'm like no. And so to your point, this
belief that you know, and I do, I understand that
the Holocaust, we understand very plainly that the Holocaust, the
Jewish Holocaust, was a horrible thing, and that this idea
of a safe place to go is is you know,
(17:10):
a great idea, a safe place, but the idea that
no one was there the idea that Jews, you know,
even you know, I hear Jews existed. They're thirty seven
hundred years ago. Okay, well, so did other people know
what he was there alone? To your point, everyone was coexisting.
These people were coexisting and into Israelism. I saw a
(17:31):
lot of people just re invigorating this nationalist idea as well,
which which to me, I want to bring up with
you because I'm okay, I'm an American, right, and I
every day went to school pledged a legiance to the
flag of the United States of America. And in the trailer,
there's even the clip where it shows like you're going
(17:51):
through your childhood things. You have the American flag and
then you have the Israelis flag. And I'm assuming you
went to Jewish school. I think you did talk about that, right,
you know. And and I know my kids went to
Islamic school, being Muslim right, But never ever, as Muslims
were they given a state or a country or a place.
(18:13):
There was never a foreign flag brought before them. So really,
even though they were raised being raised to love their faith,
their nationalism was still very tied to America. And so
I thought it was really interesting how in Israelism it
shows that there is this kind of You're being taught
to have both an American identity as well an Israeli identity,
(18:33):
even if you even if you never stepped foot in
the country, You're being raised to also pledge allegiance to
that flag to some degree. Am I right or am
I wrong? Or you know, do you do you see
that as now on an issue or do you or
do you feel like that has ever been a contributor
to the problem.
Speaker 3 (18:48):
I would go back to the idea that I think,
you know, Israel is an outpost of US imperialism. It's
very easy, you know, to basically have an identity where
you know, this is This is so much of the
narrative that APAC tries to promote in Washington, which is
right like and this is the narrative that the President Biden.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
Believes in very deeply, which is that you.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
Know, Israel and the US are you know, have shared interests,
shared values. And yes, I mean I was raised in
many ways with this like deep idea of attachment to
this this other place and to see it as another home.
I think it's very tricky because you know, Jews have
historically been accused of dual loyalty, right And that's kind
(19:28):
of like one of these deep, very deep anti Semitic
ideas that I think I would not that is not
what I would say we have been raised with. But
I think it. I think it should prompt many questions.
And I think and actually, you know, frankly, when Israel
was founded, there were a lot of debates in the
American Jewish community that have since been squashed, but by
(19:51):
a lot of you know, Jewish community leaders who were
very worried that the Jews would be accused of dual
loyalty if they became more active supporters of science. But
I think that the reason that it has been so
seamless to kind of like have those two identities together
is because Israeli interests and US interests have been presented
(20:11):
as so so aligned.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
Right now, do you think those are those interests are
what they really tell the world to be, because going
back to the war machine, you know, you have this
experience with the military and you know, going over to
Israel and seeing things for yourself firsthand, do you believe
that those interests are what we're being told or that
it really is to serve this purpose that people have
(20:36):
no idea of.
Speaker 3 (20:37):
It's actually US weapons industry that is so deeply invested
in this, right, like our aid to Israel is giving
Israel money to buy weapons from US. So it benefits,
it benefits everyone. I mean, US weapons companies are so
deeply invested in this whole situation continuing because it's a
core part of their business interests exactly exactly.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
And that's what I mean to say. It's like we
were told that we need this, we as the people.
And it actually hurts me when I feel that, you know,
in Israelism, you have some of these Jewish leaders that say,
now there's nowhere else in the world that we're safe,
even in America. And I mean I feel like, I
don't My neighbors are all Jewish, They're perfectly.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Safe with me.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
Around this idea that they're not safe here. I don't
understand how that's a you know, can be perpetuated.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
I mean, I think just like, first of all, the
person who's actually saying that message that you just said
the most repeatedly and loudly, as President Biden, I'm seeing
lots of American Jews and non Jews, you know, speaking
about how offensive it is that he repeatedly says that
if there were no Israel, there would not be a
Jew in the world who is safe. I mean, this
(21:43):
is a man responsible for the safety of over seven
million American Jews, right, And what an insane idea, what
an offensive idea that he is saying that it's up
to some other country for us to be safe.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
You know, there was this.
Speaker 3 (21:56):
Incredible article in the Nation that I quote repeatedly because
I just thought it it articulated so well, what is
the paradox that American Jews and American Muslims are living
within this moment that we hear on one hand from
our president that Jews won't be safe unless America funds
a country overseas to kill other people in our names,
(22:19):
and then you know, American Muslims won't be safe basically
unless they shut up about the fact that the US
is funding the murdering of you know, round people, Muslims,
Palestinians overseas and basically saying, hey, but if you say
anything about this, you're going to get Trump, Who's going
to be worse for you, And just about kind of
like how unsafe all of us are in this situation.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
In which like this is being done in any of
our names.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
The overwhelming feeling of watching you know, as you said,
just every day I got up this morning, Yes there
was a little girl her feet. How many children are
losing limbs, how many children are losing their parents? How
can this be something that actually makes Israeli's or Jewish
people feel safer when I think it's causing a lot
of people to feel a level of anger. I think
(23:08):
that it's fair to say it's okay to be angry
in this moment, But I know, as an individual and
as a humanitarian, I don't want to direct my anger
at the wrong people. I definitely am upset with our leaders,
with the people who are really controlling these narratives and
controlling the media, controlling the weapons, controlling our governments. They
are the people who are to blame and the people
I want to be angry at. But it is disheartening
(23:29):
when you jump online and you see so many people
within the Israeli community that will just reiterate these horrific things.
Was there a moment that you came to realize that
really Israel is often the instigator?
Speaker 3 (23:42):
For me, like a pretty significant breaking moment. Was the
summer of twenty fourteen. That was really the first military
operation where I was. I'd already been on a political
journey for a couple of years, but I was very
attuned to everything that was going on in that time.
Those who don't remember, the way that kind of summer
(24:03):
escalated is that three Jewish Israeli boys were kidnapped in
the West Bank. Then there was this a couple of
weeks where they were there, they were being searched for,
and like, during that time, the Israeli military just terrorized
Palestinians across the West Bank, put people under curfew, they
were arresting people. It was really just again like this
(24:24):
immediate collective punishment that is always what accompanies any kind
of violence against Israeli civilians.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
And then and then.
Speaker 3 (24:32):
Eventually, basically like the three boys bodies were found, but
in the meantime, there was this like kind of campaign
of incitement, and you know, I remember just like hearing
we were already hearing Hamas has ms and and that
was kind of like used, you know, this thing that
happened in the West Bank as this pretext for them
launching another military assault on the Gaza Strip.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
And I just and like it.
Speaker 3 (24:56):
You know, Jewish and Israeli writers were even writing time
about how much Nisan Yahoo misled and manipulated the public
and lied in order to kind of like get this
military campaign going. And you know, at the time until now,
that was the most deadly military campaign that we had
seen in many, many years. I mean, over two thousand
(25:19):
Palestinians were killed that summer, and it's so painful to
reflect back about that now when we're in this time
in which it's minimum ten times more. But we know
that it's like when we that's it's actually just so
many more people have been killed already than that. But yeah,
I mean that was definitely like a breaking moment for me.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
You know, I had some people even accuse me of saying, well,
you're not even concerned about the Israeli lives that have
been lost in it, and I said, that's not true,
that's absolutely not true. But I can't even take a
second to grief for them because I know what is coming.
Although I cannot lie someone, I never dreamed all of this,
you know, would be the subsequent happening. And yes, to
(25:59):
your point. In March, Ralph Nader came out with reports
that at least two hundred thousand people have been killed.
I saw a comment yesterday about that there's voices that
they can still hear under the rubble, but they can't
get them out. The most horrific things that we can
even think of.
Speaker 3 (26:14):
Right we're seeing right now some of the largest ever
anti government protests in Israel, and those people, you know,
the hostage families are some of the leading voices within
Israeli society who are saying, you are not doing everything
you can to bring our loved ones home. We can
see that your goal right now is wreaking as much
(26:35):
devastation and death and destruction on Palestinians in Gaza. And
I'm keeping our families safe now, I'm not. You know,
I don't need to like overly romanticize what those government
protests can achieve or what they stand for, because I
do believe, and I believe we've seen a lot of
(26:56):
very deep anti Palestinian racism even within that movement. But
it is also true that within Israeli society there is
very very deep and profound not just anger against Natanyao
and his government, but a real feeling of betrayal and abandonment.
One story that I know, went pretty far. Was the
(27:17):
story of all these young women and in the military
who were like, hey, they're planning something over there. Does
anyone like listen to us, Hey, we think something's going
to happen, and people, just the men who were higher
ups were like ignoring them, right and after October seventh,
the way that civil society had to kind of kick
into gear and provide basic aid and care to all
(27:39):
these families whose lives were up ended, whose homes were
burned down, who lost loved ones, and the government was
really nowhere to be found again. It reinforces this idea
that Israeli Jews are not safer in this situation in
which their government's top priority is this campaign, you know,
is deepening apart Tide, is deepening the colonization of the
(28:02):
West Bank and Gaza, and of more deeply entrenching this
regime of Jewish supremacy and moving as many Palestinians as
possible onto as small amount of land. And also then
of course like directly this campaign of you know, this
genocidal assault on Gaza.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
When you really look at a film like Israelism and
how what Palestinians deal with day in and day out, right.
I mean, I know plenty of Palestinian mothers who say
that their biggest fear is sending their children out to play.
You know, they don't know if they will get shot
by the IDF, kidnapped by the IDF, or if they
will you know, if they'll obvious see their child. Again,
(28:41):
of the word terrorism, considering the displacement of Palestinians and
the history, this may be a loaded question, but who
do you believe the real terrorists to be in this situation?
Speaker 3 (28:54):
I mean, look, we know that the word terrorism is
a super racially loaded term is used in this country
to justify increased militarization, policing, violence towards black and brown people,
and at the same time that it's almost never used
to describe similar acts of violence and.
Speaker 2 (29:14):
Terror that are committed by white people.
Speaker 3 (29:17):
So like, honestly, the thing that came to mind when
you asked me that question is is like a song
that by a Palestinian rapper named Tamar Nafar.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
He's a Palestinian citizen of Israel, and.
Speaker 3 (29:28):
It was like one of the first songs that I
ever listened to as I was on my own political
journey that he says like who's the terrorist.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
I'm the terrorist, and he kind of like flips on.
Speaker 3 (29:38):
His head, right, just this idea that like he as
a Palestinian living under this oppression of the state and
all the ways, right, that he gets smeared as a
terrorist for you know, just wanting to challenge the oppressive
systems he lives under.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
Which both you and I would as well.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
When I have conversations with people and they want to
demonize somebody for standing I mean, for standing up for
their for their life.
Speaker 4 (30:05):
You know.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
I know, I tell you we're good, but you come
into my house, you start trying to take my stuff,
you start trying to kill my family, or you know,
you try to demean me. I'm going to stand up
to you. And I'm not sure why we call that terrorism,
especially being American when our motto is give me liberty
or give me death right. It's just been released on
Apple TV. I saw that for several days in a row.
(30:27):
It was one of the highest ranking films. I think
that the response has been incredible, and again I do
feel that everyone needs to watch this film. We keep
talking about politics, right, and I hear all the time
people are like, well, you know, I don't really want
to be political. It's like, Okay, you may not care
about politics, but politics care about you. They fashion everything
that we do and have in life, So saying that
(30:47):
we don't care about them is not is not an answer.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
It's not a.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
Solution to our problems, for sure. So I really admire
that you, you know, you do take that journey head on,
because I feel that in that way you've been able
to have the impact that you are having now. But what,
in your ideal situation would be the greatest outcome for Israelism.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
I have a couple of things like I think.
Speaker 3 (31:08):
The first thing is that I hope it complicates people's
narratives and understandings of who American Jews are and what
we believe.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
I hope that it both.
Speaker 3 (31:18):
Complicates your understandings of us and impresses upon the idea
that it's possible to fight for Palestinian freedom and against
Israeli apartheid and for cutting weapons to Israel and all
these things, and also to fight anti Semitism and to
believe in safety for Jews, and to not see these
(31:40):
projects as in opposition to each other. Then the same
thing for my own Jewish community is that I hope
that the film prompts conversations for American Jews about the
harmful narratives that we've been taught about all of the
things that we are not saying or not letting ourselves
really see about the reality on the ground in Israel Palestine.
(32:00):
And I know it's already been a tool for people
to have those those really painful conversations within their families
and communities, and I hope it reaches more people and
more communities, and I know it's already been, you know,
it's been. One of my favorite stories is just like
knowing that a lot of students at the Gaza Solidarity
encampments were like screening the film and having discussions about it,
(32:20):
you know, and on those lawns and encampments together. Anybody
who kind of like wants to go on a political
journey and have those conversations, I'm grateful that it's that
it can be a tool for them and for them,
you know, a political journey in the service of taking action.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
I want to celebrate you and all that you've done,
and I hope that you continue to have much success
in your journey, and especially with the film Israelism, available
on Apple TV, as well as and Amazon as well.
I watched it on Amazon and then for our listening audience,
if you could just please tell us where they can
find you at.
Speaker 3 (32:48):
I'm on both Instagram and Twitter at the same handles.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
I am N E R Z I M.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
Thank you so much, Thanks for joinning me so much,
and so our audience at home. Our discussion with Simone
Zimmerman today has shed light on the deeply entrenched issues
stemming from Zionist ideology that has been muchly conflated with
Judaism and the impact it has had both on the
Jewish and Palestinian lives. This isn't just about one land
or one people. It's about the broader fight against colonization, oppression,
(33:20):
and the profiteering from war. It's about recognizing the true
safety and peace come not from domination or fear, but
from justice, equality, and mutual respect. We must challenge the
narratives that seek to divide us and question the systems
that profit from our suffering. It's imperative to remember that
democracy and human rights are not zero sum games. They
(33:43):
are values that uplift us all. As we move forward,
let us carry with us the stories of those who
suffer and those who fight for justice. Let us amplify
voices like Simones who bravely confront the status quo and
push for a world where everyone is afforded the dignity
and respect they deserve. Thank you for joining us today. Together,
Let's continue to seek truth, challenge injustice, and stand in
(34:03):
solidarity with all who fight for a better, more equitable world.
Until next time, stay informed, stay engaged, stay hopeful, and
thank you for letting us be unsugarcoated
From UBN Studios. You're listening to Unsugarcoated with Alia, bringing
you interviews with public figures and inspirational people speaking on
self improvement with empowered themes, and I'm your host, Ali Alaneus.
Hello everybody, and welcome back to another episode of Unsugarcoated
with Alia. I'm so happy to be here with you today.
(00:24):
And I got to say, even though all of these
episodes have at times been heart wrenching, they have also
been extremely uplifting and amazing to sit down with so
many people that care about humanity as much as I do,
that they are compelled to get up and take action
every single day. In today's episode, we are going to
(00:44):
delve deep into the heart again of one of the
most pressing and contentious issues of our time, the ongoing
genocide in Palestine.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
And I can.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Guarantee you that even if by the time this episode
is released that there is a cease fire in place,
and I'm going to put air quotes around that the
issue is not over for the Palestinian people. It's not
over until they see liberation. They will continue to suffer
at the hands of Zionism, no differently than they have
been for the past seventy six plus years. This is
(01:13):
more than just a regional dispute. It is a microcosm
of a broader, more sinister reality. It's a stark reminder
that colonization is not a relic of the past, but
a present day blight perpetuated by those who see war
as a profitable enterprise. As I watch our government try
to push through an eighteen billion dollar sale of F
(01:34):
fifteen fighter jets to Israel, ostensibly for defense, I see
the true motive behind these transactions. It's not about protection
or peace. It's about profit. It's about sustaining the war machine,
a machine that thrives on the suffering of innocence. This
isn't just about Palestine, ladies and gentlemen. This is about
a global system where war is a business, and business
(01:54):
is booming. Fascism, the sworn enemy of democracy, is rearing
its ugly head once again. It is insidious, cloaked in
the guise of national security and patriotism. But make no mistake,
its goal is to divide and conquer, to incite hatred
and fear. For war to be profitable, there must be
an enemy. There must be an anger, a deep seated,
(02:15):
consuming rage that blinds us to our common humanity. They
need us to hate and to fear and see the
other as less than human. But here's the kicker. These wars,
this hatred, this fear, they're never about issues that truly
threaten our quality of life. They're distractions designed to keep
us from pushing for a better society. We are ponds
(02:35):
in a game that enriches the few at the expense
of many. Innocent lives are destroyed, Communities are torn apart,
and for what so that a select few can line
their pockets with blood money. Today we speak with Simone Zimmermann,
a brave voice challenging the status quo. Her work with
If Not Now and her participation in the film Israelism
highlight the deepening generational divide over modern Jewish identity and
(02:59):
the growing awareness of the injustices faced by Palestinians. Join
us today as we uncover the truth, confront the uncomfortable,
and stand in solidarity not only with the Jewish community
that are standing strong saying not in my name, but
also for all of us who fight for justice, because
everyone deserves the same level of dignity and respect, because
(03:20):
we are not above others, Because the time for change
is now. So let's really quick. I'm going to do
something a little bit different today. We're going to show
the trailer of Israelism, and then we're going to bring
on Simone Zimmermann.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
Some American Jews who come here say, we came to
Israel and we left from Palestine.
Speaker 4 (03:40):
The non Jewish community does not understand our obsession with Israel.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
I went to a Jewish day.
Speaker 4 (03:48):
School, summer camp, organized trips to Israel.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Israel too, Israeli soldiers. They're hot, they're awesome, they're strong.
Speaker 5 (04:02):
We actually have had quite a few of our former
students join the idea.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
These are kids, these are eighteen nineteen year olds. Amazing.
Speaker 4 (04:10):
I told my parents I don't even need to apply
to college. I'm going to just join the Israeli military.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
Ten percent of my graduating class joined the Israeli Army.
Speaker 4 (04:19):
We were deployed to the West Bank.
Speaker 3 (04:22):
I don't think I realized the extent to which what
I would come to see on the ground would really
shock me and horrify me.
Speaker 5 (04:34):
When people look at the West Bank today and say
this isn't apartheid system, it's not just throwing out a word.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Palestinians live in, day in, day out, without experiencing a
day of freedom.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
You've see what non democracy looks like.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
What we've been told is that the only way that.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
Jews can be safe is if Palestinians are not safe.
The more I learned about that, the more I came
to see that as a lie. In the Jewish community, Oh,
there's been a striking change.
Speaker 4 (05:06):
They're really angry at the way they were indoctrinated, justifiably.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
Self when we talk about we're losing the kids, we
lost them.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
I think they're a little super naive.
Speaker 5 (05:17):
They timely cut against the gray. Are you going to
catch hail?
Speaker 2 (05:21):
You are a self loathing jew, o killer.
Speaker 5 (05:23):
S anti Semitic do the way that we talk about
anti Semitism isn't about protecting Jews, It's about protecting Israel.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
How dangerous is that band will do anything to preserve
unconditional support for Israel.
Speaker 5 (05:37):
The great irony is that there actually is research in
anti Semitism. History is not going to judge us.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
Kindly, ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Jewish American activist, co
founder of if Not Now Org and one of the
most incredible souls featured in Israelism.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Some one Zimmerman.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
Oh my goodness, I am emotional just watching that trailer
some on I have to I mean, thank you so
much for speaking with me today. This film, to me
has been an incredible the timing of it. You know,
this was done before you know, the uprising that occurred
on October seventh. How has I mean, aside from what's
(06:29):
discussed in the film itself, how has the response been
for you? What has your work life, what has life
been us since Israelism has come out?
Speaker 3 (06:37):
Thanks so much for having me here, Elliott. It's it's
really an honor. And I guess I just want to
like resonate for a minute with your emotions.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
Which is that this is an.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
Incredibly emotional time. You know, I'm just thinking about that.
Right before I got on here to record this with you,
I was just you know, seeing it was just another
round of tweets on my social media feed about people
feeling like they're at their limits with seeing the bodies
of Palestinian children ripped apart in the Gaza strip.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
And I think it.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
Actually just makes a lot of sense that all of
us are like airying this grief that is like right
at the edge all the time. So I'm right there
with you, and I guess I can say like I'm
in terms of the film, I'm just incredibly overwhelmed and
moved and feel very humbled and blessed that this film
(07:30):
has been able to be a tool during this time.
I think one of the really painful conversations I've had
with a lot of people that I've been in the
movement with over the last eight months is, you know,
talking about this horrible feeling that you never really want
to be like, and I told you so person. I
also know that's like, that's not a good way to
bring people into movement work. But there is a reality
(07:53):
that the grinding oppression of Israeli apartheid and the decades
of oppression that Palestinians have had to live under is
the context of this moment that we're living through, right.
I Mean, you mentioned before already this idea that like
a ceasefire isn't going to solve.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
All of our problems, right.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
And that's because there's been there is this, you know,
decades of oppression. You know, I've heard other people say,
like the idea that if a ceasefire happened, we would
just go back to calm is not true exactly. That's
all a long way to say that, you know, I've
been on this journey of kind of confronting that reality
over the last fifteen years. I think this is you know,
(08:36):
in a lot of ways, the kind of warp perception
of Israel is a particular experience that's happening in the
American Jewish community, but I think it's pretty fair to
say that it's also a very American experience. Much of
the mythology that American Jews are raised with is actually
a mythology that Americans.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
Are also raised with about Israel.
Speaker 3 (08:56):
So confronting, I think part of what's so painful about
this moment is just being American and that our government
is funding this nightmare. I'm so glad that this film
can be a tool for people who are asking themselves
questions and this time and trying to make sense of
you know, what are the narratives that have been that
I've been shielded from, what are the misperceptions that I
(09:16):
had about the situation, and what does it look like
to kind of begin to tell different stories and to
search for a different way of understanding and relating to
this thing.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
You know, this this perpetuated narrative of like, well, Israel
has to exist because there's all this chaos in the
Middle East without acknowledging or recognizing that while we've been
getting our lattes and plates classes, the West has largely
had a hand in creating that very chaos. And as
an American, we are like, you know, you have this
set an awakening of like, oh my gosh, why don't
(09:47):
want my tax dollars going to that? Or I don't
want to be the bad guy. But the history of
America includes demonizing Native Americans and wiping them out, It
includes enslaving people. There was this deep seated animosity and
superiority complex that has is still being widowed away at
(10:08):
time over time. So you know, I hope for change
within the Israeli community, but as an American, I'm also
aware that there's a lot of people that look at
us saying, well, you guys have your own history, why
should you be judging israelis right? And I'm curious if
you've come across those type of comments, and if you have,
what you're feeling about is when you are now advocating
(10:30):
for human rights of Palestinians.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
You know, I think part of what has been so
powerful about the movement for Palestinian freedom is the way
that connections have been drawn to so many other issues
of oppression, racism, colonialism, militarization. And so I think that
Americans who are having this awakening around Palestine like should
be also asking questions about what are other systems of
(10:53):
oppression within this country that I'm also part of right
to not actually say that this is a uniquely awful
thing that is happening over there that has nothing to
do with the other uniquely awful things happening in this country. Frankly, right,
I think there's a way of that people say that
to kind of like stop people from taking action. But
I think there are other ways to say that that
(11:14):
are about inviting in. And I can say in terms
of my own political journey, like I really feel very
strongly that like I could see my own kind of
like political journey like almost pingponging back and forth between
you know, like the first time that I actually learned
about mass like issues of mass incarceration was actually in Palestine. Right,
(11:34):
That Israeli military holds thousands of Palestinians in administrative detention,
and you know the percentages of Palestinian Palestinians in the
West Banks that have been through the military court system,
you know, without fair trial like all those things, that
the percentages are just like astronomically high. But then it
was like when I came back to the US and
I read the new Jim Crow and then I understood, oh,
(11:56):
this is also you know, actually something that we have
here too, and to then you know, have this political
awakening that was catalyzed by the Black Lives Matter movement, right,
and what does it mean that then, you know, black
activists in America talk about that we have to reckon
with the foundation of slavery and the and white supremacy
that's at the roots of this country. And that actually
(12:19):
helped me better understand what does it mean when Palestinians
talk about the Nekba and the like founding catastrophe and
historic injustices.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Like at the root of this issue that have to
be rectified.
Speaker 3 (12:31):
And so that is a way that I think it's
like an invitation, right to understand the connectedness of these
different issues instead of using it to kind of like
either to silence someone and to shut down their activism
or to say like, oh, yeah, that thing over there
is so awful.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
But it also has nothing to do with me.
Speaker 3 (12:51):
Like I think part of what this moment is about
actually seeing how much we are complicit.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
In all of these things.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Well said, and yeah, and also we'd like to think
I think that if we were around during those times,
in those in those you know, highly highly difficult times,
that we would have been the ones to stand up
and say no, I'm not going to be part of it,
and you know, and I think that that takes such bravery,
and as you know, people like yourself are now and
to me, documentaries are the new, you know, way of journalism.
(13:19):
They're incredibly valuable. I watched In Israelism twice. I think
that every Jewish person should watch it, and both both
Jewish and non Jewish, by the way, because like to
your point, even for the Americans to understand what have
I been told about these people, this region, the true history,
And I feel that there's there's so many great content
(13:41):
out there. Tantura is one as well, that's amazing walled off.
These are all great opportunities for people, and there's plenty
of opportunity, I guess, to get educated and to see
the different parts I felt Israelism was really great on
the modern aspect of it, like Tintora was more great
on the kind of the more historic, Like you said,
going closer to the knack, you know, in this film,
(14:02):
a common belief is that Jews can only be safe
if Israel exists. What is your belief based on your
experiencing and considering the role of Zionism in this narrative?
Speaker 3 (14:14):
Your comment before made me think about is you know
also kind of you know, both as a Jew and
as an American. I think something that this moment is
also making me think a lot about is about the
ways that we have Western countries who outsource their guilt
about the Holocaust onto Israel, and so much of the
(14:35):
narrative around that we that we hear in Western countries
about supporting Israel often goes back to their responsibility in
a post Holocaust world. That is kind of how I
like segue into a more direct answer to your question.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
Which is that, like, to me, the lessons of the.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
Last hundred years is that we have to protect basic
human rights, freedom, dignity, justice for all people, and that
you can't rectify one injustice by creating another injustice. I
think it's a real tragedy of history. First of all,
I want to say, it makes perfect sense to me.
Why you know, Zionism was such an appealing project for
so many Jews, And you know, I can say in
(15:11):
my own family that that it's not It wasn't just
an idea, right it did? You know, moving to pre
state Palestine offered an escape route for people in my
own family, and that always came at the cost of
another people, another society.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
And I do not believe that any.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
Jews are safer by living in this situation where to
have this, you know, I don't even want to call
it safety, because the truth is is that I think
Israeli Jews overwhelmingly do not feel.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
Safe right now.
Speaker 3 (15:42):
And everything we've seen over the last eight months is
how how fragile that idea of safety even was right,
And so the idea that you can get safety for
one group of people by subjecting in others to oppression,
ethnic cleansing, apartheid, genocide, that is not a real path
(16:02):
to safety. And we're just seeing how much more unstable
and how much more unsafe everyone in that region is
because of what is happening now.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
You know, I have to say I always have to
explain to people too when we when we talk about
this land, and I think that people don't understand the size,
Like I think ratio is a big thing.
Speaker 5 (16:21):
Right.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
You look at another you look at a map, you think, oh,
it's a country. There's plenty of space. Why don't the
Palestinians just go somewhere else? Isn't there you know? Uh,
isn't there a solution to this problem that's so easy?
I don't think a lot of people realize that the
entire area that we're talking about Israel and occupied Palestine
could fit into California and there would still be room left.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
This bit been to California many times over, right, exactly.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
And I think that when I've told when I've told
people that, they're kind of shocked, They're like, really, wait,
hold on, I don't I'm thinking there's so much more land,
and I'm like no. And so to your point, this
belief that you know, and I do, I understand that
the Holocaust, we understand very plainly that the Holocaust, the
Jewish Holocaust, was a horrible thing, and that this idea
of a safe place to go is is you know,
(17:10):
a great idea, a safe place, but the idea that
no one was there the idea that Jews, you know,
even you know, I hear Jews existed. They're thirty seven
hundred years ago. Okay, well, so did other people know
what he was there alone? To your point, everyone was coexisting.
These people were coexisting and into Israelism. I saw a
(17:31):
lot of people just re invigorating this nationalist idea as well,
which which to me, I want to bring up with
you because I'm okay, I'm an American, right, and I
every day went to school pledged a legiance to the
flag of the United States of America. And in the trailer,
there's even the clip where it shows like you're going
(17:51):
through your childhood things. You have the American flag and
then you have the Israelis flag. And I'm assuming you
went to Jewish school. I think you did talk about that, right,
you know. And and I know my kids went to
Islamic school, being Muslim right, But never ever, as Muslims
were they given a state or a country or a place.
(18:13):
There was never a foreign flag brought before them. So really,
even though they were raised being raised to love their faith,
their nationalism was still very tied to America. And so
I thought it was really interesting how in Israelism it
shows that there is this kind of You're being taught
to have both an American identity as well an Israeli identity,
(18:33):
even if you even if you never stepped foot in
the country, You're being raised to also pledge allegiance to
that flag to some degree. Am I right or am
I wrong? Or you know, do you do you see
that as now on an issue or do you or
do you feel like that has ever been a contributor
to the problem.
Speaker 3 (18:48):
I would go back to the idea that I think,
you know, Israel is an outpost of US imperialism. It's
very easy, you know, to basically have an identity where
you know, this is This is so much of the
narrative that APAC tries to promote in Washington, which is
right like and this is the narrative that the President Biden.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
Believes in very deeply, which is that you.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
Know, Israel and the US are you know, have shared interests,
shared values. And yes, I mean I was raised in
many ways with this like deep idea of attachment to
this this other place and to see it as another home.
I think it's very tricky because you know, Jews have
historically been accused of dual loyalty, right And that's kind
(19:28):
of like one of these deep, very deep anti Semitic
ideas that I think I would not that is not
what I would say we have been raised with. But
I think it. I think it should prompt many questions.
And I think and actually, you know, frankly, when Israel
was founded, there were a lot of debates in the
American Jewish community that have since been squashed, but by
(19:51):
a lot of you know, Jewish community leaders who were
very worried that the Jews would be accused of dual
loyalty if they became more active supporters of science. But
I think that the reason that it has been so
seamless to kind of like have those two identities together
is because Israeli interests and US interests have been presented
(20:11):
as so so aligned.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
Right now, do you think those are those interests are
what they really tell the world to be, because going
back to the war machine, you know, you have this
experience with the military and you know, going over to
Israel and seeing things for yourself firsthand, do you believe
that those interests are what we're being told or that
it really is to serve this purpose that people have
(20:36):
no idea of.
Speaker 3 (20:37):
It's actually US weapons industry that is so deeply invested
in this, right, like our aid to Israel is giving
Israel money to buy weapons from US. So it benefits,
it benefits everyone. I mean, US weapons companies are so
deeply invested in this whole situation continuing because it's a
core part of their business interests exactly exactly.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
And that's what I mean to say. It's like we
were told that we need this, we as the people.
And it actually hurts me when I feel that, you know,
in Israelism, you have some of these Jewish leaders that say,
now there's nowhere else in the world that we're safe,
even in America. And I mean I feel like, I
don't My neighbors are all Jewish, They're perfectly.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Safe with me.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
Around this idea that they're not safe here. I don't
understand how that's a you know, can be perpetuated.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
I mean, I think just like, first of all, the
person who's actually saying that message that you just said
the most repeatedly and loudly, as President Biden, I'm seeing
lots of American Jews and non Jews, you know, speaking
about how offensive it is that he repeatedly says that
if there were no Israel, there would not be a
Jew in the world who is safe. I mean, this
(21:43):
is a man responsible for the safety of over seven
million American Jews, right, And what an insane idea, what
an offensive idea that he is saying that it's up
to some other country for us to be safe.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
You know, there was this.
Speaker 3 (21:56):
Incredible article in the Nation that I quote repeatedly because
I just thought it it articulated so well, what is
the paradox that American Jews and American Muslims are living
within this moment that we hear on one hand from
our president that Jews won't be safe unless America funds
a country overseas to kill other people in our names,
(22:19):
and then you know, American Muslims won't be safe basically
unless they shut up about the fact that the US
is funding the murdering of you know, round people, Muslims,
Palestinians overseas and basically saying, hey, but if you say
anything about this, you're going to get Trump, Who's going
to be worse for you, And just about kind of
like how unsafe all of us are in this situation.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
In which like this is being done in any of
our names.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
The overwhelming feeling of watching you know, as you said,
just every day I got up this morning, Yes there
was a little girl her feet. How many children are
losing limbs, how many children are losing their parents? How
can this be something that actually makes Israeli's or Jewish
people feel safer when I think it's causing a lot
of people to feel a level of anger. I think
(23:08):
that it's fair to say it's okay to be angry
in this moment, But I know, as an individual and
as a humanitarian, I don't want to direct my anger
at the wrong people. I definitely am upset with our leaders,
with the people who are really controlling these narratives and
controlling the media, controlling the weapons, controlling our governments. They
are the people who are to blame and the people
I want to be angry at. But it is disheartening
(23:29):
when you jump online and you see so many people
within the Israeli community that will just reiterate these horrific things.
Was there a moment that you came to realize that
really Israel is often the instigator?
Speaker 3 (23:42):
For me, like a pretty significant breaking moment. Was the
summer of twenty fourteen. That was really the first military
operation where I was. I'd already been on a political
journey for a couple of years, but I was very
attuned to everything that was going on in that time.
Those who don't remember, the way that kind of summer
(24:03):
escalated is that three Jewish Israeli boys were kidnapped in
the West Bank. Then there was this a couple of
weeks where they were there, they were being searched for,
and like, during that time, the Israeli military just terrorized
Palestinians across the West Bank, put people under curfew, they
were arresting people. It was really just again like this
(24:24):
immediate collective punishment that is always what accompanies any kind
of violence against Israeli civilians.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
And then and then.
Speaker 3 (24:32):
Eventually, basically like the three boys bodies were found, but
in the meantime, there was this like kind of campaign
of incitement, and you know, I remember just like hearing
we were already hearing Hamas has ms and and that
was kind of like used, you know, this thing that
happened in the West Bank as this pretext for them
launching another military assault on the Gaza Strip.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
And I just and like it.
Speaker 3 (24:56):
You know, Jewish and Israeli writers were even writing time
about how much Nisan Yahoo misled and manipulated the public
and lied in order to kind of like get this
military campaign going. And you know, at the time until now,
that was the most deadly military campaign that we had
seen in many, many years. I mean, over two thousand
(25:19):
Palestinians were killed that summer, and it's so painful to
reflect back about that now when we're in this time
in which it's minimum ten times more. But we know
that it's like when we that's it's actually just so
many more people have been killed already than that. But yeah,
I mean that was definitely like a breaking moment for me.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
You know, I had some people even accuse me of saying, well,
you're not even concerned about the Israeli lives that have
been lost in it, and I said, that's not true,
that's absolutely not true. But I can't even take a
second to grief for them because I know what is coming.
Although I cannot lie someone, I never dreamed all of this,
you know, would be the subsequent happening. And yes, to
(25:59):
your point. In March, Ralph Nader came out with reports
that at least two hundred thousand people have been killed.
I saw a comment yesterday about that there's voices that
they can still hear under the rubble, but they can't
get them out. The most horrific things that we can
even think of.
Speaker 3 (26:14):
Right we're seeing right now some of the largest ever
anti government protests in Israel, and those people, you know,
the hostage families are some of the leading voices within
Israeli society who are saying, you are not doing everything
you can to bring our loved ones home. We can
see that your goal right now is wreaking as much
(26:35):
devastation and death and destruction on Palestinians in Gaza. And
I'm keeping our families safe now, I'm not. You know,
I don't need to like overly romanticize what those government
protests can achieve or what they stand for, because I
do believe, and I believe we've seen a lot of
(26:56):
very deep anti Palestinian racism even within that movement. But
it is also true that within Israeli society there is
very very deep and profound not just anger against Natanyao
and his government, but a real feeling of betrayal and abandonment.
One story that I know, went pretty far. Was the
(27:17):
story of all these young women and in the military
who were like, hey, they're planning something over there. Does
anyone like listen to us, Hey, we think something's going
to happen, and people, just the men who were higher
ups were like ignoring them, right and after October seventh,
the way that civil society had to kind of kick
into gear and provide basic aid and care to all
(27:39):
these families whose lives were up ended, whose homes were
burned down, who lost loved ones, and the government was
really nowhere to be found again. It reinforces this idea
that Israeli Jews are not safer in this situation in
which their government's top priority is this campaign, you know,
is deepening apart Tide, is deepening the colonization of the
(28:02):
West Bank and Gaza, and of more deeply entrenching this
regime of Jewish supremacy and moving as many Palestinians as
possible onto as small amount of land. And also then
of course like directly this campaign of you know, this
genocidal assault on Gaza.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
When you really look at a film like Israelism and
how what Palestinians deal with day in and day out, right.
I mean, I know plenty of Palestinian mothers who say
that their biggest fear is sending their children out to play.
You know, they don't know if they will get shot
by the IDF, kidnapped by the IDF, or if they
will you know, if they'll obvious see their child. Again,
(28:41):
of the word terrorism, considering the displacement of Palestinians and
the history, this may be a loaded question, but who
do you believe the real terrorists to be in this situation?
Speaker 3 (28:54):
I mean, look, we know that the word terrorism is
a super racially loaded term is used in this country
to justify increased militarization, policing, violence towards black and brown people,
and at the same time that it's almost never used
to describe similar acts of violence and.
Speaker 2 (29:14):
Terror that are committed by white people.
Speaker 3 (29:17):
So like, honestly, the thing that came to mind when
you asked me that question is is like a song
that by a Palestinian rapper named Tamar Nafar.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
He's a Palestinian citizen of Israel, and.
Speaker 3 (29:28):
It was like one of the first songs that I
ever listened to as I was on my own political
journey that he says like who's the terrorist.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
I'm the terrorist, and he kind of like flips on.
Speaker 3 (29:38):
His head, right, just this idea that like he as
a Palestinian living under this oppression of the state and
all the ways, right, that he gets smeared as a
terrorist for you know, just wanting to challenge the oppressive
systems he lives under.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
Which both you and I would as well.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
When I have conversations with people and they want to
demonize somebody for standing I mean, for standing up for
their for their life.
Speaker 4 (30:05):
You know.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
I know, I tell you we're good, but you come
into my house, you start trying to take my stuff,
you start trying to kill my family, or you know,
you try to demean me. I'm going to stand up
to you. And I'm not sure why we call that terrorism,
especially being American when our motto is give me liberty
or give me death right. It's just been released on
Apple TV. I saw that for several days in a row.
(30:27):
It was one of the highest ranking films. I think
that the response has been incredible, and again I do
feel that everyone needs to watch this film. We keep
talking about politics, right, and I hear all the time
people are like, well, you know, I don't really want
to be political. It's like, Okay, you may not care
about politics, but politics care about you. They fashion everything
that we do and have in life, So saying that
(30:47):
we don't care about them is not is not an answer.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
It's not a.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
Solution to our problems, for sure. So I really admire
that you, you know, you do take that journey head on,
because I feel that in that way you've been able
to have the impact that you are having now. But what,
in your ideal situation would be the greatest outcome for Israelism.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
I have a couple of things like I think.
Speaker 3 (31:08):
The first thing is that I hope it complicates people's
narratives and understandings of who American Jews are and what
we believe.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
I hope that it both.
Speaker 3 (31:18):
Complicates your understandings of us and impresses upon the idea
that it's possible to fight for Palestinian freedom and against
Israeli apartheid and for cutting weapons to Israel and all
these things, and also to fight anti Semitism and to
believe in safety for Jews, and to not see these
(31:40):
projects as in opposition to each other. Then the same
thing for my own Jewish community is that I hope
that the film prompts conversations for American Jews about the
harmful narratives that we've been taught about all of the
things that we are not saying or not letting ourselves
really see about the reality on the ground in Israel Palestine.
(32:00):
And I know it's already been a tool for people
to have those those really painful conversations within their families
and communities, and I hope it reaches more people and
more communities, and I know it's already been, you know,
it's been. One of my favorite stories is just like
knowing that a lot of students at the Gaza Solidarity
encampments were like screening the film and having discussions about it,
(32:20):
you know, and on those lawns and encampments together. Anybody
who kind of like wants to go on a political
journey and have those conversations, I'm grateful that it's that
it can be a tool for them and for them,
you know, a political journey in the service of taking action.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
I want to celebrate you and all that you've done,
and I hope that you continue to have much success
in your journey, and especially with the film Israelism, available
on Apple TV, as well as and Amazon as well.
I watched it on Amazon and then for our listening audience,
if you could just please tell us where they can
find you at.
Speaker 3 (32:48):
I'm on both Instagram and Twitter at the same handles.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
I am N E R Z I M.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
Thank you so much, Thanks for joinning me so much,
and so our audience at home. Our discussion with Simone
Zimmerman today has shed light on the deeply entrenched issues
stemming from Zionist ideology that has been muchly conflated with
Judaism and the impact it has had both on the
Jewish and Palestinian lives. This isn't just about one land
or one people. It's about the broader fight against colonization, oppression,
(33:20):
and the profiteering from war. It's about recognizing the true
safety and peace come not from domination or fear, but
from justice, equality, and mutual respect. We must challenge the
narratives that seek to divide us and question the systems
that profit from our suffering. It's imperative to remember that
democracy and human rights are not zero sum games. They
(33:43):
are values that uplift us all. As we move forward,
let us carry with us the stories of those who
suffer and those who fight for justice. Let us amplify
voices like Simones who bravely confront the status quo and
push for a world where everyone is afforded the dignity
and respect they deserve. Thank you for joining us today. Together,
Let's continue to seek truth, challenge injustice, and stand in
(34:03):
solidarity with all who fight for a better, more equitable world.
Until next time, stay informed, stay engaged, stay hopeful, and
thank you for letting us be unsugarcoated
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