November 10, 2023 • 49 mins
In this compelling podcast episode, our host engages in a thought-provoking conversation with Morani Kornberg, a distinguished Israeli-born Jewish scholar, writer, and poet holding a PhD. The focus of the episode revolves around the intricate history of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict and what it would be like to be born Palestinian in contrast to Jewish, aiming to provide listeners with a nuanced understanding of the region's complexities.
Titled "From Los Angeles to Gaza: A Plea for Humanity," this episode aligns with the broader theme of this limited series as a podcast season. It seeks to bridge geographical and cultural gaps, fostering empathy and understanding. Through the insights provided by Kornberg, listeners gain a deeper appreciation for the multifaceted dynamics at play in the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, emphasizing the importance of a humanitarian perspective in navigating the complexities of this enduring issue.
Titled "From Los Angeles to Gaza: A Plea for Humanity," this episode aligns with the broader theme of this limited series as a podcast season. It seeks to bridge geographical and cultural gaps, fostering empathy and understanding. Through the insights provided by Kornberg, listeners gain a deeper appreciation for the multifaceted dynamics at play in the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, emphasizing the importance of a humanitarian perspective in navigating the complexities of this enduring issue.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:03):
From Ubin Studios. You're listening toUnsugarcoated with Alia, bringing you interviews with
public figures and inspirational people speaking onself improvement with empowered themes, and I'm
your host, Ali Laneus. Hello, Hello, Hello to everyone around the
world. I am so happy tobe with you. I am going to
(00:25):
be quite honest. This is theseason premiere of season twelve of Unsugarcoated with
Alia. There's a lot that's happenedover these past twelve seasons. We've been
honored to actually be listened or watchedin over seventy countries around the world,
and this is of great pride tome as a social impact producer. You
know, our vibe is always abouthumanity, but to be honest, this
(00:49):
has to be the most important seasonI will produce up until this point.
We have a special theme. Itis from Los Angeles to Gaza, a
plea for humanity, and I wantto remind everybody that when it comes to
these type of conversations, we areon the side of humanity. I'm not
(01:11):
against anyone. I'm simply for everyonehaving the same right to integrity piece respect
that I have in my life,that I deserve in my life that I
expect in my life that I willnot settle. You know, anyone who
knows me knows. One of myquotes is that Matt says, welcome,
not wipe your feet right, Soin that this is a season specially dedicated
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to anyone suffering right now as aresult of the conflict, of which there
are many. And this is alsoa plea to stand up, wake up,
and let's not be part of whatis happening in front of our eyes,
which is a lot. We willbe speaking to different people with different
perspectives around the world on this subject, and I'm very honored and blessed to
(01:59):
have just the opportunity to bring themto you and for you to hear those
perspectives. Why, because we needto humanize one another. It is so
critically important that we do so.Today is November seventh. October seventh was
a tragic day because it was thebeginning, well not the beginning, but
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an act occurred that dismissed human lifein one sense, but in turn has
spurred on a catastrophic event that weare all witnessing. And at this moment,
the only thing that matters to meare the innocent civilian lives that are
caught in the middle. There's goingto be a lot that we cover in
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this season, and today will beno different from that. I am reminded
I've shared this quote before in myprevious previous episode. Parul Robison was the
son of a slave. He wasan activist and a musician in the nineteen
thirties and forties, very well respected, and it was in nineteen thirty seven
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that he performed at a concert,an anti fascist concert at the Prince Royal
Albert Hall. And I know thisbecause I put part of this into one
of the scenes in my second novel, which took on a story that showed
the beauty of both a Jewish familyduring nineteen thirty seven, just before World
War two broke out, and juxtaposedto that a modern day family that was
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being targeted as a Muslim family tobe you know, somebody wanted to prove
they were terrorists. Paul Robison,in that moment said a quote that I
very much understand. Every artist,every scientist, every writer must decide now
where he stands. He has noalternative. There is no standing above the
conflict on Olympian Heights. There isno impartial observers. The battlefront is everywhere,
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and to be honest, for me, silent is too much of a
burden to bear. No matter howdiplomatic I am during this season, I
know there are going to be peoplethat come for me. I am going
to stick to the issue, andthere will be people that you will have
to please. Don't look away,don't turn away. See it through their
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eyes, see it through the eyesof humanity. And to the people who
don't, who want to stay complicent, who want to buy into the lies
of what we know now have labelsof propaganda and rhetoric. Just because you're
going to choose to fail at beinga human being does not mean that I
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will. And we are going toprovide that representation. We are going to
reclaim the narrative that we know tobe true, that Palestinians have a right
to exist. And it pains methat the path to peace seems incredibly dwindled
right now and daily. I amconcerned not only about my pas Palestinian brothers
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and sisters, but other people inthe region as well as the Israeli families
that are being subjected to this.You know, there's an aggression that we're
seeing towards both people of Jewish faithand people in the Middle Eastern culture.
It's I don't want to see anyof that. We cannot have that.
We are so much better than that, ladies and gentlemen. So with our
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guests today, we are gonna We'regetting into the battlefront, and we are
grateful for you to stay with usand to hear the stories, because this
is important. Our guest today isan amazing woman who has first hand experience
as an Israeli citizen and a personof Jewish faith. I wanted to know
her. I wanted to have thisconversation and discuss her work and honestly what
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her life has been like, simplybecause she wasn't born Palestinian. What if
you woke up Palestinian, what aboutyour life do you think would be different?
Well, we're going to ask her, and I think you'll want to
hear what she has to say.What. Annie Kornberg is a versatile writer,
performer, and scholar with a uniquebackground that spans continents. Born in
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Tel Aviv and raised in Tarzana,Morani's life journey has taken her back and
forth between the US and the MiddleEast. She holds a PhD in postcolonial
literature with a keen focus on protestpoetry, collective memory, and decolonization in
Israel Palestine. Her work extends acrossdiverse genres, from academic essays and translations
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to her captivating poetry book, DearDarwish. Morani's academic expertise has also made
a significant impact, as she's taughtliterature and critical theory at prestigious institutions like
UCLA, s un Y Buffalo,and Tel Aviv University. And that's not
all. Morani is currently embarking ona new journey with her podcast, Waging
Hope. This exciting show brings togethermultidisciplinary experts to discuss various manifestations of hope,
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all with the goal of reclaiming ourcommon humanity. Ladies and gentlemen,
please welcome Ms. Morani Kornberg.Hello, Hello, Hello, my darling.
How are you. I'm okay asone can be these days. How
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are you? You know? I'mgood, I know, and it's important.
I know, even with the claps, it always kinds of feels a
little bittersweetened. What I know isgoing to be a heavy conversation, But
you know what I do, celebrateyou. I celebrate that you're here,
that you're open, and in atime when a lot of people are being
told to be quiet, I'm sograteful to have you in this conversation today.
I know you're supposed to be inthe studio, but you're at home,
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but thank you for being able tojoin us. Let's start, because
this is going to be a lotto unpack, and you have so many
incredible things to say. Let's startwith your early life. You were born
in Tel Aviv, you came tothe US, and then you went back
when you were fourteen years old.I mean, how did those early years
shape your understanding of how the worldworked. Yeah, let me begin by
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saying thank you for having me today, and to also tell the viewers that
I'm speaking from my place, frommy experience, but everything that I'm seeing
is also informed by years of academicresearch, years of studying Israel and Palestine.
So I just want to preface andsay that, so to stay briefly,
I was born in Israel. Bothof my parents are Israeli. My
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dad was actually born in nineteen fortysix, so I sometimes joke that I'm
half Palestinian Jewish, which they don'talways like. But it's a fact.
And we immigrated to the US whenI was four years old, and I
grew up in southern California in Tarzana. Was almost a valley girl for a
chunk of my life. And thenwe moved back to Israel when I was
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fourteen. So by the time Imoved back to Israel, already formulated my
identity. And by that I meanI went to public schools in the US
and I had friends from a diverserange. I had friends who are Muslim,
who are Christian, who are Lebanese, who are Iranian, Catholic,
with Korean. Just the range ofpeople and their cultures, and I grew
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up in those different households. Sofor me to come back was pretty shocking
at the age of fourteen, whereI had to reidentify with my Israeli birthplace.
And then as an Israeli citizen,I had to serve in the military
when I was eighteen. At first, I didn't really want to because in
my mind, I was an Americanteen. I wanted to go to the
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prom and go to UCIL, whichwas my dream school back as a teen,
and I ended up serving in theIsraeli Air Force. By the time
I started my military service. Iwas very enthusiastic about it because in Israel
we have young soldiers coming to schoolsand encouraging us. There's a lot of
stigmas if you don't serve in themilitary back then in the late nineties,
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you won't get a job, youwon't be able to participate in regular civil
life, and there's a lot ofstigma for those who don't serve. So
it wasn't really a question of yesor no. It was like, you
have to. And I admittedly feltgreat during those years. I felt Israeli.
I felt like I was part ofa bigger system. I felt important.
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I felt like I was doing themost important job in the world.
And it was only years later thatI came back to the US in two
thousand and nine for graduate school,that I was really able to comprehend what
it meant for me to serve asa teenager in the Israeli military. And
I still today grieve those years thatI feel like were stolen from me,
(10:30):
that my late teens early twenties revolvedaround that military machine, and it's a
big issue that unfortunately in Israli culture, we don't unpack as much because you
go from being a teenager to beinga soldier, then being a civilian again,
and there's no real collective processing ofwhat that meant and what we did
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and what we were part of.So there's so much more to unpack there.
And thank you for sharing that.I mean, you know, I
know you had told me you weresummoned when you were sixteen, and that
you know, it's kind of likea big deal. Not going to the
interview at first is even a problem. And my former partner, I have
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a former partner that was in theAir Force and I remember going through his
boot camp notes and in my stepfatherwas a Vietnam Vet. He came back
with a severe trauma as a resultof things. Because what I think a
lot of people forget is that militarybreaks you down so that you can become
a force, a weapon. Itdoes you have to kind of dehumanize the
other side to some extent, notto some extent, you do so that
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you can accomplish the mission, right, which in your belief is I'm keeping
my country secure, I'm keeping mypeople safe, so when it comes.
And it's also think that when we'reteenagers, we're still very idealistic. We
don't really know how the we think, we know how the world operates,
right like my son. You know, I was a teenager. I know.
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No, you don't. You don'tknow until you've gone out and lived
it. You know, when youwere part of those forces, I know
you shared, you know, youhad an important role. You spoke English,
so you were of you know,which a lot of people do.
But because you had this dual identity, you were of a more significant value.
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What was it that makes you nowstart looking back and reflect on the
things that you were part of thatyou didn't agree with. When did that
start to shift in your mind?Well, I should say that because I
came to Israel in high school,I held onto the English language and I
held onto my American identity. Andthat's why I sound very American, because
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in many ways at that age,I was very American. And when I
was in high school, I usedto visit a used bookstore in Tel Aviv
called Helper's Books on Allen B Street, and I used to take the bus.
And I was always a writer anda poet. It was only years
later that I realized that I wasa poet. I didn't think of myself
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that way, but I've always writtenpoetry, and I would go straight to
the poetry section, and I oneday found a book called Victims of a
Map, and I just remember beingbaffled by that title. What an interesting
title, the word victims and mapput together. And I opened the book
and I see it was an anthologyof a few writers, and one of
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them being Makhmo Derush, who isthe greatest nationalist Palestinian poet. And I
just remember thinking, who is thisperson? Why haven't I learned about him?
Why don't I know anything? Youknow, Palestine and Palestinians was kind
of always in the backdrop, butwe never talked about Palestinians. It was
just you're in Israel, your Israeli, We're all Israeli. But it was
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kind of there in the backdrop.I should also say that that period coincided
with a time of many suicide bombs, means in Tel Aviv, in central
Israel, in restaurants, and soin many ways that was how people thought
of as when we thought about Palestinians, and that very narrow position. And
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so I'm put up with these twodifferent pictures. One is the suicide bombers
and the others Suddenly these poets andthey're very different, very different positions,
and I don't think at that ageI could fully put all the pieces together.
I did not have the tools thatI have today. I did not
have the context that I have todaythat made me understand. And I want
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to be very clear in this conversationthat I condemn all violence. It is
very important for me to say that. And at the same time, from
an academic point of view, Ilook and contextualize that violence from a historic
standpoint, and I try to understandhow that violence is born, and how
it's perpetuated, and what are thegreater forces that are moving that violence around.
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But I think I'm going to goback to the poetry book and just
say that it planted a seed inmy mind. It very probably one of
the most important seeds in my lifethat I was exposed to a book by
an author whose existence was denied tome, the fact that Palestinian literature was
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denied to me, because literature iswritten by people, and literature is about
stories, and when we read storiesabout other people, we suddenly engage with
an individual, a life, anda broader culture and a history. And
when those books are denied to us, we never have the chance to see
the other side and the stories thatcome from the other side, And that
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was a really important moment that Ithink led me into my own journey into
literature, into eventually writing a poetrybook called Dir Darwish, which really began
as a series of letters that Iwas trying to understand is in Palestine?
Excuse me. That also ultimately ledme to change my research trajectory and my
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whole life. So that was literallyan imperative moment in my life where it's
almost like a gift was presented tome just out of my own curiosity.
Yeah, no, I can appreciatethat because then it gives you the reality
that there are other perspectives, thatthere are other voices and other experiences that
do matter. And I love thatyou even bring him up because he was
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very well known and somebody can golook this up. He was very anti
hamas he felt that hamas itself,whether people want to justify that it's born
as a resistance and they believe themselvesto be a resistance group. You know,
at the end of the day,he did not think that they were
the solution. And so you know, I know that in some of the
comments I've received from people they wouldsay, oh, all Palestinians support hamas
they voted them in, right,Like, there's this naivety to the reality
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that that's not accurate. That youknow, you're dealing with an occupied people
that don't really have as much independenceand democracy in any form really that we
think that they do in the sameway even that we experience here and on
that. You know, as youstarted to become aware and based on your
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experiences, what are some of thedifferences between a person waking up Palestinian versus
someone who is either granted Israeli citizenshipor somebody who's born there. You know,
again, I can only speak frommy personal experience. I do not
know what it feels like to wakeup Palestinian. And not only that,
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I have duel Israeli an American citizenship. My parents were. We received the
naturalization citizenship back in the eighties whenit was much easier to become an American
citizen. So I have a lotof mobility and I have a lot of
privilege, and it's very important forme to stress that that as a Jew,
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because the State of Israel pretty muchgrants I don't want to say automatically.
It's a process, but it isit defines itself as the Jewish homeland,
and therefore Jews from around the worldare able to make in aliyah,
which means to immigrate to Israel,receive benefits as citizens, whereas Palestinians whose
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grandparents or great grandparents lived in Haifaand Yah Jaffa and various cities throughout what
is now called the state of Israelcannot return to their homeland. So I
honestly do not know what it feelslike not to be able to return to
my homeland, because I have accessto my homeland, and as an American
citizen, I have access to manyother countries around the world, and I'm
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able to, you know, crossover, whether it's to Canada or Mexico and
just show my American passport. Butthis is an important question, especially one
that I pose to my Israeli friendsand family when I try to do almost
like a visualization exercise, because onething that I think also in our conversation
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around October seventh, which again Iwant to condemn the attacks, my heart
bleeds for the families of the victims, my heart aches for the hostages.
Every day I pray for their safetyand for their return. And I want
to also add the nuance and thelayer of the larger context in which these
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events happened, because when they happened, the first thing I asked myself was
what leads people to commit such desperateacts? Because I think and it's again,
I don't want to speak for Palestiniansor fromas, but given the historical
context between Israel and the military responseto attacks, we kind of know more
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or less than Israel is going torespond. Historically, if there have been
attacks, Israel has had a disproportionatemilitary response, and we know that the
military solution is not one that leadsus out of this violent cycle. It
just perpetuates. So in my mind, to think that people would risk their
lives to commit the atrocities that theyhave have there for me, I'd like
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to think that the way I perceivelife and freedom is not perceived in the
same way, because I don't knowwhat it means to have my freedoms taken
away from me. I don't knowwhat it feels like to be a Palestinian
living in the Gaza strip. Solet's scale back a little, Let's say
hypothetically, and I want to stresshypothetically, my grandparents or even my parents
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were living in what is now calledthe State of Israel before the Nakaba,
which in Arabic is the catastrophe whichcoincides with the birth of the State of
Israel, which Israeli is called theWar of Independence, the establishment of the
State of Israel in nineteen forty eight, which was a catastrophe for the Palestinians
who were of the region and wholived there for centuries. I don't know
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what it's like to have left myhome in Haifa, or in Jaffa,
or in Ashdod and had to becomea refugee in the Gaza Strip. I
don't know what it's like when innineteen sixty seven, Israel gained control over
the Gaza Strip. I don't knowwhat it's like to be a Palestinian living
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under military siege for roughly sixteen years, in which Israel has basically controlled water
supply, electricity, the entrance offood and humanitarian aid. I don't know
what it's like to be an Palestinianfrom the Gaza Strip who has had to
survive in two thousand and nine,In twenty fourteen and one, Israeli military
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ETI under after another. So whenyou ask this question, it's not just
what is it like to now bea Palestinian gaza in October and November twenty
twenty three where we have a humanitarycrisis? Where and this is not a
word I use lightly. This isa word that the United Nations and high
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officials in the United Nations are using. This is a word that scholars,
academics, historians are using. Iwas recently on a zoom call and a
Jewish Israeli scholar, his name isLas Sega. He is one of the
leading genocide and Holocaust scholars of todaycalling what Israel is doing a genocide,
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and I think we have to startlistening and looking at international law, looking
at the history, looking at whatthe United Nations is calling for humanitary aid
and a seist fires. So youknow I'm answering your question, I'm not
because I don't know what it's liketo have directly have my people at this
moment go through the genocidal violence thatthey are. There are two point two
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million people in the Gaza strip.There are over one million people who do
not have homes. As of today, over ten thousand people have been killed
over four thousand of them are children. There is nothing, no amount of
nationalist affiliation, no amount of religiousaffiliation for me personally, can justify these
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atrocities. And so the answer isI do not know, because I am
not part of that. And partof why I stand with Palestinine solidarity is
because of my privileges, is becauseI understand that in order to create a
just world, those of us inpositions of privilege have to dismantle our positions
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of privilege so that other people forgiveme. I don't remember who said this
quote, but no one is freeuntil we're all free. That for me
is a way of life. Andthe more people who stand in their privilege,
the work of Jewish Voice for Peace, who are now just the other
day they were in front of theStatue of Liberty, who are using their
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privilege to stand and express their solidarityand demand to cease fire. And it
is my hope that we find ourcommon humanity and all this, that we
put ourselves in the position of theoppressed and we think about what they need
from us to stop these atrocities.I can appreciate that I feel your heart,
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I feel your passion, I feelyour humanity, I tell myself,
I'm not going to cry during theseason, because you know, I want
people to understand that it is youknow, I mean, my ex has
been he was born a Palestinian,he was born with no city, no
no nationality. He was my fatherin law. My children have grown up
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with the stories of their grandparents,who, like you said, had nine
generations before them, and I thinkthe gravest thing to me is that people
don't recognize there there is a lotthat has happened. And I'm going to
go back to something that you saidwas the homeland and what I think started
out. We've we talked about thispreviously, about this idea, your your
(25:30):
grandmother was in Palestine, and youhave this you have what was originally a
hope, a safety feeling, right, and I've brought this up that is
it possible that as a result,and I'm really going because you do,
you do have that scholarly, youhave the education, you know, is
it possible because also this is onthe conversation of Judaism versus Zionism and Zionist
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ideology nationalism, which is really whatit is. But is it possible that
through the pain and stuff that wasendured during the Holocaust, that never again
concept right, that this will nothappen to us again, that it itself,
you know, bore into existence aform of radicalism in that idelogy because
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in it now you are saying,well, nobody else can encroach this,
this is it has to be thisway, and we will accomplish it no
matter. What I mean is thatis that a possibility? Moronnie? Like
I mean, you've lived it,you know. And I think that a
lot of conversations right now are tryingto educate people on the difference on what
Zionism is. And so I'll askyou what is Zionism to you? And
do you what are your thoughts onwhat I've said? Yeah, thank you.
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There's a lot to unpact. I'lltry to be clear here. I
want to preface and say from aphilosophical standpoint, for me personally, I
have always taken an anti nationalist stand, whether it is you're not US nationalism,
whether it's Israeli nationalists. And atthe same time, this ties back
to your previous question. It's becauseI have two very privileged identities, and
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so I don't want to underestimate thePalestinian struggle for self determination. And for
liberation and for definition, and forthe fact that Palestinians are entitled to that
struggle. So I want to youknow, there's a lot of nuance here,
So let me try to unpack this. For me personally, when I
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think of Zionism, I think ofmy grandparents. I'm thinking specifically on my
mother's side. My grandfather immigrated inthe early thirties legally from Poland to what
was then the British Mandate of Palestine, because after the fall of the Ottoman
Empire, for almost thirty years untilthe establishment of the State of Israel,
there was the British Mandate of Palestine, and then my grandmother. The story
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goes that she immigrated illegally through youthgroups, that she lied about her age
because of everything that was happening.And we know the history of Europe,
we know the history of the Jewsin Europe and the history of the Holocaust.
So for me, and I saythis very seriously, Zionism in that
era and the era of the nineteenthirties when there was the rise I mean,
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the rise of nationalism already happened inthe nineteenth century, and that's when
Zionism also became a nationalist movement.But in that time, for young Jewish
people in Europe, especially in Poland, the concept of Zion, of returning
to Sion, Zion right the HolyLand, saved their lives. So for
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me personally, Zionism is why I'mhere today. Within the context of nineteen
thirties in Europe, my grandparents left. My grandmother had a sister who also
came to Palestine and then ended upleaving and going to the US and the
rest of her family perished. Somy ancestry was annihilated in the Holocaust,
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and it was because of those Zionistyouth movements where they wanted to establish themselves
in Palestine. Is why I'm heretoday. So that's one part of that's
one layer. The second layer isthe establishment of the State of Israel as
a homeland for the Jewish people,which I also think as every minority group,
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and Jews are a minority, havethe right to self determination. I
also want to preface and stay thatwe're dealing with a radicalization in anti Semitism
and also in Islamophobia, and thisis part of the broader movements of white
supremacy on a global scale. Minorities, Asian hate, anti black racism.
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These are real things. So allof the minority groups are feeling it,
and especially now there's been a risein both anti Semitism and in Islamophobia.
For me, this is also froma scholarly perspective. The way I perceive
what we call the Holy Land isthat that is a holy place what is
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now called the state of Israel,and specifically Jerusalem and Nazareth and the main
areas where Christianity, Judaism and Islamhave grown. Those places have been promised
to many cultures and religions across acrossour history. So if we look at
just human history, yes there isperiods of the ancient Israelites and you know,
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my great great, great, great, great great great ancestors, let's
call us, you know, duringthe time of Abraham and Moses and that.
But during those times many different groupshad settled and been in that region.
And so for me, from aphilosophical humanist perspective, the way I
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see our humanity as this, weare all a temporary guests on this beautiful
planet which we have called Earth.In my belief, no one owns anything.
We are a species among species,among the flowers, among the animals,
among the birds, among the waters. We are a species. And
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the fact that we have such medicaladvancement, such scientific advancement, philosophy,
art, literature, film, there'sso much beauty in our human expression that
for me, the crisis in Israeland Palestine right now in twenty twenty three
shows us the impossibility of the nationalistframework as an artificial identitarian marker that is
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aimed to differentiate among human beings becauseof their birthplace, and we have so
many hyphenated identities people who are comingtogether that Israel and Palestine is proving to
us again and again the failure ofthe nationalist project. And you know,
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people are like, are you prothis? Are you pro that? Why
are you this? Why are youthat? And I have to explain,
I am pro humanity, I ampro human rights, and I will stand
with the oppressed. And I itis my hope that in some place,
you know I'm writing about this rightnow, we talk about one state to
state. We need a third state, and by that I mean we need
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to decolonize our minds. We needa decolonial, transnational transformative justice movement where
we remove our flags, where weremove those artificial borders, that we keep
reinstating. I mean, just lookat the history of Europe in the last
four hundred years, the way theborders keep shifting. You know, one
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day you have this identity, thenext day you have that identity. And
like all empires in history, allempires rise and fall. And we have
to find a way out of thisnationalist cycle which is just causing more death
and destruction, and which is alsofueled by the military industry, primarily by
(33:16):
the United States and also Israel becauseour global superpowers, they want us to
be fighting against one another. Theywant us to be in these heated discussions
because then they can sell more weaponsand have more power. But we really
all need to demand a decolonization ofour planet for our future. And I
(33:38):
don't mean to romanticize that. Iknow that it can sound very idealistic,
but I truly believe that that isa way out of this endless cycle of
violence. But that's a far betteridea to have than this is mine and
not anybody else's and only for meand mine, and that's it. I
completely agree and totally respect what you'resaying. And you know, I mean,
(34:00):
I'm going to ask you a question, but I'm going to also share
with the audience a personal experience thatI had when I was in my college
years and I had a professor.He was Palestinian, Sayad Hodi was his
name, Professor Hody, and hewas from Alkudz. He was from Jerusalem,
born and raised there. And heone time there was some kids in
the class and they were saying someanti smit They were saying an anti Jewish
(34:23):
things, and he said, hestopped them, he chastised them, and
he said, listen, you willnot speak of all Jews that way.
You will not speak of the Jewsin front of me like that. He
said, I've been there, thisis my homeland, this is where I
grew up. I've been there whenJewish people have stood in front of the
bulldozers and said you're not getting tothem unless you go through me. And
(34:45):
even for me at that time,when I was still like we talked about
those more radical ideally, do youknow that can very easily be planted in
youth and people of youth. Whichis why the Hitler youth was a thing,
right, this is why let's getthem early, Let's indoctrinate them with
this belief in pro Baganda. Butwhen we talk about I mean, this
(35:05):
is my question, why do youthink there are Palestinians so angry with Israelis?
How can we not think that they'reangry with us? Is the real
question. How can we not seethe suffering that the State of Israel has
inflicted on Palestinians for seventy five yearsand before that. I am also looking
(35:34):
at the forties and the late fortieshistorians like Israeli historians, Jewish Israeli historians
including Benny Morris and Elan Pappe,who in the eighties gained access to the
military and government archives and who showedproof that there was systematic desire to eradicate
(35:55):
and to remove the Palestinians so thata Jewish state could be established. And
we have to contend with that.We cannot ignore history any longer. We
have to hold space for Palestinian's anger. And I would also, I know,
I'm kind of conflating a few thingsnow. I don't appreciate also the
(36:17):
way the Holocaust is weaponized and usedby the Israeli government as a way to
justify what is happening now in theGaza strip. But there are many accounts
of massacres that were committed by Jewsin the forties, entire villages that were
erased. The university that I wentto, Tel Aviv University, is built
(36:40):
on the remains of a Palestinian village. There's an Israeli organization called Zhot which
does incredible work. They take theword zikoron, which is a masculine word
in Hebrew which means memory, andthey feminized it to offer an anti colonial,
(37:00):
anti patriarchal framework for commemorating and rememberingthe Nakaba. And you know,
they offer tours they show the villagesthat were erased and the Israeli cities and
towns that were built on the ruinsof Palestine. I think the real question
is when are we going to listenand truly give voice to Palestinian suffering and
(37:27):
to Palestinian history. And I haveto admit, when the events of October
seventh happened in about a week later, I got all these calls and text
messages like are you okay? Areyou okay? Are you okay? Is
your family okay? And you know, think the goddesses, my friends and
family are okay. And I kepton thinking we should are the Palestinians in
Gaza are okay because they're being thewhole neighborhoods are being erased. So there
(37:54):
is the Western media, Israeli media, American media. I think one of
the big things that we're dealing withis the dehumanization of Palestinians. Israeli leaders
are conflating between Hamas and Nazis.They're calling them Hamas Nazis. I really
think that the conversation should be ongiving Palestinian people, Palestinian victims, the
(38:25):
equal right to tell their story,to show the devastation and destruction that is
happening in the Gaza strip right now, to reclaim their identity, to stand
with them in their fight for selfdetermination. That's my position. Yeah,
I appreciate that, and I knowit has been difficult for you as you've
(38:45):
stood out as an advocate for humanity. You know, as I share that
with you, what right now isyour biggest call to action when it comes
to Poleople's belief systems surrounding this becauseas you pointed out these this is not
like even if there's a ceasefire,and I'm gonna keep saying this, even
if there's a ceasefire today we're not. Oh, and it's not like they're
just going to walk back in andeverything's going to be fine. We're talking
(39:07):
about I mean, children's school yearshave been canceled, you know, I
mean the destruction to just the fabricof life. Children will not know who
they belong to, they won't knowtheir birthday, they don't know where they're
from. You know, the trueword victim is a real word here.
And what the solution from Israeli is, Oh, let's put them in the
Sinai desert. And you know thatseems a bit you know, convenient and
(39:30):
things like that, but like,what is your call to action right now
when it comes to people's belief systemsand so that we can get to a
better place. So this might sounda bit, I'm going to give an
alternative solution because, to be honest, I'm seeing a lot of conversations and
(39:51):
a lot of noise too on socialmedia, and the information is out there.
I want to give a little adifferent solution. And this goes to
and perhaps I'm also speaking to youIsraelis because I am Israeli, I'm Jewish,
and it is my hope that mywork and my life mission will be
(40:12):
able to also bring in another layerand more nuance into this topic. I
think the first step, and I'mgoing to again speak from an Israeli standpoint,
is we need to regulate our nervoussystems. I know that this is
probably not something people expected to hear, but I can say as an Israeli
who I grew up. I camein my teenage years in Israel during those
(40:37):
years of the suicide bombings. Ialso volunteered as an ant and I volunteered
in Mcgaindavide, which is a firstaid ambulance service, as a teenager,
and so I know what it's liketo be part of that culture where you're
constantly alert in a state of trauma. And what I see happening right now
(40:59):
since October seventh is that Israelis arekind of stuck in like a time warp
where they're just focused on October seventh, on the fact that fourteen hundred people
were murdered and over two hundred peopleare now held hostage, and we just
pray for their lives and their safetyin the Gaza strip. But Israelis are
(41:19):
stuck in a time loop where theycannot get out of October seventh. They
cannot see what Israel is doing beyondOctober seventh, and as somebody who lived
in israel I could say, andI see this with my family and friends.
People's eyes are glued to the news. Twenty four to seven. There
are rockets falling on Israeli territories.People are scared, they're in bomb shelters,
(41:40):
They're in a state of trauma.And so when we're in a state
of trauma, we either are defensiveor we're reactive, and we're not able
to contain more information. And soI think the first step is to regulate
to get out of that trauma.We need elective efforts to work on people's
(42:02):
mental health at this time, becauseI don't think that people are in a
state to see the other side orto have even conversations, because people are
so caught up in their own nationalistregional position. So that's from an Israeli
standpoint. From a Palestinian standpoint,Palestinians in the Gaza Strip specifically, and
(42:23):
also the West Bank, because therehave been there's been a rise in settler
of violence, in military violence inthe West Bank. There have been over
one hundred Palestinians who have been killedin the last month in the West Bank,
there have been arrests of people whoare just expressing their solidarity with their
Palestinian families. In the Gaza Strip. The Israeli police are arresting Palestinians with
(42:46):
Israeli citizenship. So that's a wholeother host of issues that we're tackling with.
But we need to demand a seazfire. We as Americans need to
representatives. The information is out there. We need to call them daily,
we need to email them daily.We need to tell them that we are
(43:07):
relying on them and that we votedthem into office, and that we expect
them to call in a ceasefire sothat we can continue voting for them and
keeping them in office. I hopethat answers your question. But I really
think that all this noise and whatwe see on social media and people just
(43:27):
you know, here's a fact,and let me give you a counter fact,
and let me give you a counterfactthat is not productive by any means,
because people are now in a verynarrow minded state. There's trauma.
There's trauma in the United States ofPalestinians in the diaspora, there's trauma of
Israelis in the diaspora. There's traumaof Jews in the diaspora. And I
(43:47):
want to stress that I differentiate betweenthe State of Israel, which utilizes Judaism
and has conflated it with the nationalismversus Judaism, which is a world religion
which has nothing to do with theState of Israel. As an Israeli,
I want to say that the Stateof Israel does not define my Judaism,
(44:12):
and I do not identify with theways in which the State of Israel is
trying to define Judaism for the entireworld. And I think that the anti
Semitism has always been there regardless.Anti Semitism began before the establishment of the
State of Israel. And just onemore thing. Israeli Is also like to
say, well, you know,Palestinians didn't exist, and Palestinians didn't exist
(44:35):
before nineteen forty eight. Well letme tell you, my dear Palestinians.
Israeli Is as we know them todaydid not exist before nineteen forty eight.
My dad was born during the BritishMandate of Palestine. He was born in
Palestine. I could hypothetically say thatI'm half Palestinian. So we have to
really start looking at the groups whoare being affected by these wars that we're
(45:00):
having and by these so called conflictsthat we're having, and really start paying
attention to that and putting in ourresources towards that. Oh and I can
appreciate that. And similarly, asa Muslim, when things you know,
when I run nine to eleven happened, now you want to you standing up
saying this does not reflect our religion. We're constantly feeling like we have to
defend and by the way, condemnedterrorism as if a rational person wouldn't right
(45:22):
for people who want to because youdo amazing things. You know, you're
launching your podcast, which I absolutelylove the name of Oh my goodness,
you're where can people go to supportyou? How do you want them your
website for the audio audience that wedo have around the world, please also
state it for them. Yeah,let's let's let's know how we can support
you. Thank you so much.Yes, I'm currently on social media Maranie
(45:45):
Kornberg and my website Ronniekornberg dot com. I'm in the midst of launching a
website called Waging Hope. I wantto state very briefly that this idea came
way before us started in October seventh. My daughter's middle name is Amal,
which means hope in Arabic. AndI had an issue when I was visiting
(46:08):
back home just this last summer,and the border police my children have American
passports, and she asked me whatis your daughter's name and why would you
give her a name in Arabic?And I said to her, Aman means
hope. It's such a beautiful name. And I said, you know,
we all need a little bit ofhope, don't we. And that question
(46:30):
we all need a little bit ofhope, don't we kept on ringing in
my mind and ringing in my mind, And it was partially because I started
feeling hopeless, and I was determinedto not feel hopeless because those of us
in positions of privilege, despair isa privilege, and we have to utilize
our resources and our privileges and oureconomic privileges to fight for those who are
(46:52):
not in those positions. And sothe goal of waging hope is to bring
experts, whether it is psychologis,just scientists, artists, and really break
down this idea of hope, becauseI think hope is our birthright. I
want to create ways and even inthis devastating time. And I know I'm
(47:14):
all here, you know, didmy makeup and looking all nice and shiny.
But I am I am devastated.I am heartbroken. I cannot even
communicate the heartbreak. And at thesame time I have to believe in hope
and to tie back this idea ofpoetry and reading rereading an anthology called Against
(47:37):
Forgetting and it is a collection ofpoems throughout the years, throughout the decades,
from around the world, of poetswho are writing in war time.
And at the end of the day, this is what we have. We
have our greatest human expression, andI do not want to believe that our
greatest human expression is that of war. Our greatest human expression is that of
(47:58):
creativity. And the more we canlean into that, the more we can
lean into really the fact that ourtime here is so precious and temporary.
I will fight for that hope.I will not let what is happening diminish
me, because this is what ourleaders want and we cannot fall into that
spiral. I am so hopeful tosee Jews standing alongside Palestinians, risking and
(48:22):
getting arrested, because that is thething that we need to be focusing on,
and I will fight for that,hope. So thank you for having
me, thank you for this conversation, and I would love to connect to
your viewers. And I'm grateful forthe work that you do. I commend
you for the work that you do. I think it's such an important work
(48:42):
and we will stand together in thisstruggle for everyone. So thank you,
absolutely, thank you so so much. I appreciate you. We'll talk soon.
Thank you so much for being withus today. And to everyone else
at home at this moment, Imean, first of all, I'm just
I'm honored to have somebody who speaksso eloquently and so passionately. But at
(49:05):
this moment, ladies and gentlemen,you're either pro humanity or your pro genocide.
There is no in between. SoI hope we're all making the right
choice today for ourselves, for ourfamilies, for generations to come, and
like Moranie, I have hope,I hope you do too. Thank you
so much. We'll see you nexttime, and of course, thank you
(49:27):
for letting us be and sugarcoated.Take care
From Ubin Studios. You're listening toUnsugarcoated with Alia, bringing you interviews with
public figures and inspirational people speaking onself improvement with empowered themes, and I'm
your host, Ali Laneus. Hello, Hello, Hello to everyone around the
world. I am so happy tobe with you. I am going to
(00:25):
be quite honest. This is theseason premiere of season twelve of Unsugarcoated with
Alia. There's a lot that's happenedover these past twelve seasons. We've been
honored to actually be listened or watchedin over seventy countries around the world,
and this is of great pride tome as a social impact producer. You
know, our vibe is always abouthumanity, but to be honest, this
(00:49):
has to be the most important seasonI will produce up until this point.
We have a special theme. Itis from Los Angeles to Gaza, a
plea for humanity, and I wantto remind everybody that when it comes to
these type of conversations, we areon the side of humanity. I'm not
(01:11):
against anyone. I'm simply for everyonehaving the same right to integrity piece respect
that I have in my life,that I deserve in my life that I
expect in my life that I willnot settle. You know, anyone who
knows me knows. One of myquotes is that Matt says, welcome,
not wipe your feet right, Soin that this is a season specially dedicated
(01:36):
to anyone suffering right now as aresult of the conflict, of which there
are many. And this is alsoa plea to stand up, wake up,
and let's not be part of whatis happening in front of our eyes,
which is a lot. We willbe speaking to different people with different
perspectives around the world on this subject, and I'm very honored and blessed to
(01:59):
have just the opportunity to bring themto you and for you to hear those
perspectives. Why, because we needto humanize one another. It is so
critically important that we do so.Today is November seventh. October seventh was
a tragic day because it was thebeginning, well not the beginning, but
(02:22):
an act occurred that dismissed human lifein one sense, but in turn has
spurred on a catastrophic event that weare all witnessing. And at this moment,
the only thing that matters to meare the innocent civilian lives that are
caught in the middle. There's goingto be a lot that we cover in
(02:44):
this season, and today will beno different from that. I am reminded
I've shared this quote before in myprevious previous episode. Parul Robison was the
son of a slave. He wasan activist and a musician in the nineteen
thirties and forties, very well respected, and it was in nineteen thirty seven
(03:07):
that he performed at a concert,an anti fascist concert at the Prince Royal
Albert Hall. And I know thisbecause I put part of this into one
of the scenes in my second novel, which took on a story that showed
the beauty of both a Jewish familyduring nineteen thirty seven, just before World
War two broke out, and juxtaposedto that a modern day family that was
(03:29):
being targeted as a Muslim family tobe you know, somebody wanted to prove
they were terrorists. Paul Robison,in that moment said a quote that I
very much understand. Every artist,every scientist, every writer must decide now
where he stands. He has noalternative. There is no standing above the
conflict on Olympian Heights. There isno impartial observers. The battlefront is everywhere,
(03:55):
and to be honest, for me, silent is too much of a
burden to bear. No matter howdiplomatic I am during this season, I
know there are going to be peoplethat come for me. I am going
to stick to the issue, andthere will be people that you will have
to please. Don't look away,don't turn away. See it through their
(04:17):
eyes, see it through the eyesof humanity. And to the people who
don't, who want to stay complicent, who want to buy into the lies
of what we know now have labelsof propaganda and rhetoric. Just because you're
going to choose to fail at beinga human being does not mean that I
(04:39):
will. And we are going toprovide that representation. We are going to
reclaim the narrative that we know tobe true, that Palestinians have a right
to exist. And it pains methat the path to peace seems incredibly dwindled
right now and daily. I amconcerned not only about my pas Palestinian brothers
(05:00):
and sisters, but other people inthe region as well as the Israeli families
that are being subjected to this.You know, there's an aggression that we're
seeing towards both people of Jewish faithand people in the Middle Eastern culture.
It's I don't want to see anyof that. We cannot have that.
We are so much better than that, ladies and gentlemen. So with our
(05:21):
guests today, we are gonna We'regetting into the battlefront, and we are
grateful for you to stay with usand to hear the stories, because this
is important. Our guest today isan amazing woman who has first hand experience
as an Israeli citizen and a personof Jewish faith. I wanted to know
her. I wanted to have thisconversation and discuss her work and honestly what
(05:43):
her life has been like, simplybecause she wasn't born Palestinian. What if
you woke up Palestinian, what aboutyour life do you think would be different?
Well, we're going to ask her, and I think you'll want to
hear what she has to say.What. Annie Kornberg is a versatile writer,
performer, and scholar with a uniquebackground that spans continents. Born in
(06:04):
Tel Aviv and raised in Tarzana,Morani's life journey has taken her back and
forth between the US and the MiddleEast. She holds a PhD in postcolonial
literature with a keen focus on protestpoetry, collective memory, and decolonization in
Israel Palestine. Her work extends acrossdiverse genres, from academic essays and translations
(06:26):
to her captivating poetry book, DearDarwish. Morani's academic expertise has also made
a significant impact, as she's taughtliterature and critical theory at prestigious institutions like
UCLA, s un Y Buffalo,and Tel Aviv University. And that's not
all. Morani is currently embarking ona new journey with her podcast, Waging
Hope. This exciting show brings togethermultidisciplinary experts to discuss various manifestations of hope,
(06:51):
all with the goal of reclaiming ourcommon humanity. Ladies and gentlemen,
please welcome Ms. Morani Kornberg.Hello, Hello, Hello, my darling.
How are you. I'm okay asone can be these days. How
(07:11):
are you? You know? I'mgood, I know, and it's important.
I know, even with the claps, it always kinds of feels a
little bittersweetened. What I know isgoing to be a heavy conversation, But
you know what I do, celebrateyou. I celebrate that you're here,
that you're open, and in atime when a lot of people are being
told to be quiet, I'm sograteful to have you in this conversation today.
I know you're supposed to be inthe studio, but you're at home,
(07:31):
but thank you for being able tojoin us. Let's start, because
this is going to be a lotto unpack, and you have so many
incredible things to say. Let's startwith your early life. You were born
in Tel Aviv, you came tothe US, and then you went back
when you were fourteen years old.I mean, how did those early years
shape your understanding of how the worldworked. Yeah, let me begin by
(07:54):
saying thank you for having me today, and to also tell the viewers that
I'm speaking from my place, frommy experience, but everything that I'm seeing
is also informed by years of academicresearch, years of studying Israel and Palestine.
So I just want to preface andsay that, so to stay briefly,
I was born in Israel. Bothof my parents are Israeli. My
(08:16):
dad was actually born in nineteen fortysix, so I sometimes joke that I'm
half Palestinian Jewish, which they don'talways like. But it's a fact.
And we immigrated to the US whenI was four years old, and I
grew up in southern California in Tarzana. Was almost a valley girl for a
chunk of my life. And thenwe moved back to Israel when I was
(08:37):
fourteen. So by the time Imoved back to Israel, already formulated my
identity. And by that I meanI went to public schools in the US
and I had friends from a diverserange. I had friends who are Muslim,
who are Christian, who are Lebanese, who are Iranian, Catholic,
with Korean. Just the range ofpeople and their cultures, and I grew
(09:01):
up in those different households. Sofor me to come back was pretty shocking
at the age of fourteen, whereI had to reidentify with my Israeli birthplace.
And then as an Israeli citizen,I had to serve in the military
when I was eighteen. At first, I didn't really want to because in
my mind, I was an Americanteen. I wanted to go to the
(09:22):
prom and go to UCIL, whichwas my dream school back as a teen,
and I ended up serving in theIsraeli Air Force. By the time
I started my military service. Iwas very enthusiastic about it because in Israel
we have young soldiers coming to schoolsand encouraging us. There's a lot of
stigmas if you don't serve in themilitary back then in the late nineties,
(09:46):
you won't get a job, youwon't be able to participate in regular civil
life, and there's a lot ofstigma for those who don't serve. So
it wasn't really a question of yesor no. It was like, you
have to. And I admittedly feltgreat during those years. I felt Israeli.
I felt like I was part ofa bigger system. I felt important.
(10:07):
I felt like I was doing themost important job in the world.
And it was only years later thatI came back to the US in two
thousand and nine for graduate school,that I was really able to comprehend what
it meant for me to serve asa teenager in the Israeli military. And
I still today grieve those years thatI feel like were stolen from me,
(10:30):
that my late teens early twenties revolvedaround that military machine, and it's a
big issue that unfortunately in Israli culture, we don't unpack as much because you
go from being a teenager to beinga soldier, then being a civilian again,
and there's no real collective processing ofwhat that meant and what we did
(10:54):
and what we were part of.So there's so much more to unpack there.
And thank you for sharing that.I mean, you know, I
know you had told me you weresummoned when you were sixteen, and that
you know, it's kind of likea big deal. Not going to the
interview at first is even a problem. And my former partner, I have
(11:15):
a former partner that was in theAir Force and I remember going through his
boot camp notes and in my stepfatherwas a Vietnam Vet. He came back
with a severe trauma as a resultof things. Because what I think a
lot of people forget is that militarybreaks you down so that you can become
a force, a weapon. Itdoes you have to kind of dehumanize the
other side to some extent, notto some extent, you do so that
(11:37):
you can accomplish the mission, right, which in your belief is I'm keeping
my country secure, I'm keeping mypeople safe, so when it comes.
And it's also think that when we'reteenagers, we're still very idealistic. We
don't really know how the we think, we know how the world operates,
right like my son. You know, I was a teenager. I know.
(11:58):
No, you don't. You don'tknow until you've gone out and lived
it. You know, when youwere part of those forces, I know
you shared, you know, youhad an important role. You spoke English,
so you were of you know,which a lot of people do.
But because you had this dual identity, you were of a more significant value.
(12:20):
What was it that makes you nowstart looking back and reflect on the
things that you were part of thatyou didn't agree with. When did that
start to shift in your mind?Well, I should say that because I
came to Israel in high school,I held onto the English language and I
held onto my American identity. Andthat's why I sound very American, because
(12:43):
in many ways at that age,I was very American. And when I
was in high school, I usedto visit a used bookstore in Tel Aviv
called Helper's Books on Allen B Street, and I used to take the bus.
And I was always a writer anda poet. It was only years
later that I realized that I wasa poet. I didn't think of myself
(13:07):
that way, but I've always writtenpoetry, and I would go straight to
the poetry section, and I oneday found a book called Victims of a
Map, and I just remember beingbaffled by that title. What an interesting
title, the word victims and mapput together. And I opened the book
and I see it was an anthologyof a few writers, and one of
(13:28):
them being Makhmo Derush, who isthe greatest nationalist Palestinian poet. And I
just remember thinking, who is thisperson? Why haven't I learned about him?
Why don't I know anything? Youknow, Palestine and Palestinians was kind
of always in the backdrop, butwe never talked about Palestinians. It was
just you're in Israel, your Israeli, We're all Israeli. But it was
(13:50):
kind of there in the backdrop.I should also say that that period coincided
with a time of many suicide bombs, means in Tel Aviv, in central
Israel, in restaurants, and soin many ways that was how people thought
of as when we thought about Palestinians, and that very narrow position. And
(14:13):
so I'm put up with these twodifferent pictures. One is the suicide bombers
and the others Suddenly these poets andthey're very different, very different positions,
and I don't think at that ageI could fully put all the pieces together.
I did not have the tools thatI have today. I did not
have the context that I have todaythat made me understand. And I want
(14:39):
to be very clear in this conversationthat I condemn all violence. It is
very important for me to say that. And at the same time, from
an academic point of view, Ilook and contextualize that violence from a historic
standpoint, and I try to understandhow that violence is born, and how
it's perpetuated, and what are thegreater forces that are moving that violence around.
(15:03):
But I think I'm going to goback to the poetry book and just
say that it planted a seed inmy mind. It very probably one of
the most important seeds in my lifethat I was exposed to a book by
an author whose existence was denied tome, the fact that Palestinian literature was
(15:24):
denied to me, because literature iswritten by people, and literature is about
stories, and when we read storiesabout other people, we suddenly engage with
an individual, a life, anda broader culture and a history. And
when those books are denied to us, we never have the chance to see
the other side and the stories thatcome from the other side, And that
(15:46):
was a really important moment that Ithink led me into my own journey into
literature, into eventually writing a poetrybook called Dir Darwish, which really began
as a series of letters that Iwas trying to understand is in Palestine?
Excuse me. That also ultimately ledme to change my research trajectory and my
(16:07):
whole life. So that was literallyan imperative moment in my life where it's
almost like a gift was presented tome just out of my own curiosity.
Yeah, no, I can appreciatethat because then it gives you the reality
that there are other perspectives, thatthere are other voices and other experiences that
do matter. And I love thatyou even bring him up because he was
(16:32):
very well known and somebody can golook this up. He was very anti
hamas he felt that hamas itself,whether people want to justify that it's born
as a resistance and they believe themselvesto be a resistance group. You know,
at the end of the day,he did not think that they were
the solution. And so you know, I know that in some of the
comments I've received from people they wouldsay, oh, all Palestinians support hamas
they voted them in, right,Like, there's this naivety to the reality
(16:56):
that that's not accurate. That youknow, you're dealing with an occupied people
that don't really have as much independenceand democracy in any form really that we
think that they do in the sameway even that we experience here and on
that. You know, as youstarted to become aware and based on your
(17:17):
experiences, what are some of thedifferences between a person waking up Palestinian versus
someone who is either granted Israeli citizenshipor somebody who's born there. You know,
again, I can only speak frommy personal experience. I do not
know what it feels like to wakeup Palestinian. And not only that,
(17:40):
I have duel Israeli an American citizenship. My parents were. We received the
naturalization citizenship back in the eighties whenit was much easier to become an American
citizen. So I have a lotof mobility and I have a lot of
privilege, and it's very important forme to stress that that as a Jew,
(18:03):
because the State of Israel pretty muchgrants I don't want to say automatically.
It's a process, but it isit defines itself as the Jewish homeland,
and therefore Jews from around the worldare able to make in aliyah,
which means to immigrate to Israel,receive benefits as citizens, whereas Palestinians whose
(18:26):
grandparents or great grandparents lived in Haifaand Yah Jaffa and various cities throughout what
is now called the state of Israelcannot return to their homeland. So I
honestly do not know what it feelslike not to be able to return to
my homeland, because I have accessto my homeland, and as an American
citizen, I have access to manyother countries around the world, and I'm
(18:48):
able to, you know, crossover, whether it's to Canada or Mexico and
just show my American passport. Butthis is an important question, especially one
that I pose to my Israeli friendsand family when I try to do almost
like a visualization exercise, because onething that I think also in our conversation
(19:12):
around October seventh, which again Iwant to condemn the attacks, my heart
bleeds for the families of the victims, my heart aches for the hostages.
Every day I pray for their safetyand for their return. And I want
to also add the nuance and thelayer of the larger context in which these
(19:34):
events happened, because when they happened, the first thing I asked myself was
what leads people to commit such desperateacts? Because I think and it's again,
I don't want to speak for Palestiniansor fromas, but given the historical
context between Israel and the military responseto attacks, we kind of know more
(19:59):
or less than Israel is going torespond. Historically, if there have been
attacks, Israel has had a disproportionatemilitary response, and we know that the
military solution is not one that leadsus out of this violent cycle. It
just perpetuates. So in my mind, to think that people would risk their
lives to commit the atrocities that theyhave have there for me, I'd like
(20:23):
to think that the way I perceivelife and freedom is not perceived in the
same way, because I don't knowwhat it means to have my freedoms taken
away from me. I don't knowwhat it feels like to be a Palestinian
living in the Gaza strip. Solet's scale back a little, Let's say
hypothetically, and I want to stresshypothetically, my grandparents or even my parents
(20:51):
were living in what is now calledthe State of Israel before the Nakaba,
which in Arabic is the catastrophe whichcoincides with the birth of the State of
Israel, which Israeli is called theWar of Independence, the establishment of the
State of Israel in nineteen forty eight, which was a catastrophe for the Palestinians
who were of the region and wholived there for centuries. I don't know
(21:14):
what it's like to have left myhome in Haifa, or in Jaffa,
or in Ashdod and had to becomea refugee in the Gaza Strip. I
don't know what it's like when innineteen sixty seven, Israel gained control over
the Gaza Strip. I don't knowwhat it's like to be a Palestinian living
(21:34):
under military siege for roughly sixteen years, in which Israel has basically controlled water
supply, electricity, the entrance offood and humanitarian aid. I don't know
what it's like to be an Palestinianfrom the Gaza Strip who has had to
survive in two thousand and nine,In twenty fourteen and one, Israeli military
(21:59):
ETI under after another. So whenyou ask this question, it's not just
what is it like to now bea Palestinian gaza in October and November twenty
twenty three where we have a humanitarycrisis? Where and this is not a
word I use lightly. This isa word that the United Nations and high
(22:22):
officials in the United Nations are using. This is a word that scholars,
academics, historians are using. Iwas recently on a zoom call and a
Jewish Israeli scholar, his name isLas Sega. He is one of the
leading genocide and Holocaust scholars of todaycalling what Israel is doing a genocide,
(22:47):
and I think we have to startlistening and looking at international law, looking
at the history, looking at whatthe United Nations is calling for humanitary aid
and a seist fires. So youknow I'm answering your question, I'm not
because I don't know what it's liketo have directly have my people at this
moment go through the genocidal violence thatthey are. There are two point two
(23:11):
million people in the Gaza strip.There are over one million people who do
not have homes. As of today, over ten thousand people have been killed
over four thousand of them are children. There is nothing, no amount of
nationalist affiliation, no amount of religiousaffiliation for me personally, can justify these
(23:33):
atrocities. And so the answer isI do not know, because I am
not part of that. And partof why I stand with Palestinine solidarity is
because of my privileges, is becauseI understand that in order to create a
just world, those of us inpositions of privilege have to dismantle our positions
(23:56):
of privilege so that other people forgiveme. I don't remember who said this
quote, but no one is freeuntil we're all free. That for me
is a way of life. Andthe more people who stand in their privilege,
the work of Jewish Voice for Peace, who are now just the other
day they were in front of theStatue of Liberty, who are using their
(24:19):
privilege to stand and express their solidarityand demand to cease fire. And it
is my hope that we find ourcommon humanity and all this, that we
put ourselves in the position of theoppressed and we think about what they need
from us to stop these atrocities.I can appreciate that I feel your heart,
(24:44):
I feel your passion, I feelyour humanity, I tell myself,
I'm not going to cry during theseason, because you know, I want
people to understand that it is youknow, I mean, my ex has
been he was born a Palestinian,he was born with no city, no
no nationality. He was my fatherin law. My children have grown up
(25:08):
with the stories of their grandparents,who, like you said, had nine
generations before them, and I thinkthe gravest thing to me is that people
don't recognize there there is a lotthat has happened. And I'm going to
go back to something that you saidwas the homeland and what I think started
out. We've we talked about thispreviously, about this idea, your your
(25:30):
grandmother was in Palestine, and youhave this you have what was originally a
hope, a safety feeling, right, and I've brought this up that is
it possible that as a result,and I'm really going because you do,
you do have that scholarly, youhave the education, you know, is
it possible because also this is onthe conversation of Judaism versus Zionism and Zionist
(25:53):
ideology nationalism, which is really whatit is. But is it possible that
through the pain and stuff that wasendured during the Holocaust, that never again
concept right, that this will nothappen to us again, that it itself,
you know, bore into existence aform of radicalism in that idelogy because
(26:14):
in it now you are saying,well, nobody else can encroach this,
this is it has to be thisway, and we will accomplish it no
matter. What I mean is thatis that a possibility? Moronnie? Like
I mean, you've lived it,you know. And I think that a
lot of conversations right now are tryingto educate people on the difference on what
Zionism is. And so I'll askyou what is Zionism to you? And
do you what are your thoughts onwhat I've said? Yeah, thank you.
(26:41):
There's a lot to unpact. I'lltry to be clear here. I
want to preface and say from aphilosophical standpoint, for me personally, I
have always taken an anti nationalist stand, whether it is you're not US nationalism,
whether it's Israeli nationalists. And atthe same time, this ties back
to your previous question. It's becauseI have two very privileged identities, and
(27:06):
so I don't want to underestimate thePalestinian struggle for self determination. And for
liberation and for definition, and forthe fact that Palestinians are entitled to that
struggle. So I want to youknow, there's a lot of nuance here,
So let me try to unpack this. For me personally, when I
(27:26):
think of Zionism, I think ofmy grandparents. I'm thinking specifically on my
mother's side. My grandfather immigrated inthe early thirties legally from Poland to what
was then the British Mandate of Palestine, because after the fall of the Ottoman
Empire, for almost thirty years untilthe establishment of the State of Israel,
there was the British Mandate of Palestine, and then my grandmother. The story
(27:52):
goes that she immigrated illegally through youthgroups, that she lied about her age
because of everything that was happening.And we know the history of Europe,
we know the history of the Jewsin Europe and the history of the Holocaust.
So for me, and I saythis very seriously, Zionism in that
era and the era of the nineteenthirties when there was the rise I mean,
(28:17):
the rise of nationalism already happened inthe nineteenth century, and that's when
Zionism also became a nationalist movement.But in that time, for young Jewish
people in Europe, especially in Poland, the concept of Zion, of returning
to Sion, Zion right the HolyLand, saved their lives. So for
(28:37):
me personally, Zionism is why I'mhere today. Within the context of nineteen
thirties in Europe, my grandparents left. My grandmother had a sister who also
came to Palestine and then ended upleaving and going to the US and the
rest of her family perished. Somy ancestry was annihilated in the Holocaust,
(29:00):
and it was because of those Zionistyouth movements where they wanted to establish themselves
in Palestine. Is why I'm heretoday. So that's one part of that's
one layer. The second layer isthe establishment of the State of Israel as
a homeland for the Jewish people,which I also think as every minority group,
(29:22):
and Jews are a minority, havethe right to self determination. I
also want to preface and stay thatwe're dealing with a radicalization in anti Semitism
and also in Islamophobia, and thisis part of the broader movements of white
supremacy on a global scale. Minorities, Asian hate, anti black racism.
(29:45):
These are real things. So allof the minority groups are feeling it,
and especially now there's been a risein both anti Semitism and in Islamophobia.
For me, this is also froma scholarly perspective. The way I perceive
what we call the Holy Land isthat that is a holy place what is
(30:11):
now called the state of Israel,and specifically Jerusalem and Nazareth and the main
areas where Christianity, Judaism and Islamhave grown. Those places have been promised
to many cultures and religions across acrossour history. So if we look at
just human history, yes there isperiods of the ancient Israelites and you know,
(30:36):
my great great, great, great, great great great ancestors, let's
call us, you know, duringthe time of Abraham and Moses and that.
But during those times many different groupshad settled and been in that region.
And so for me, from aphilosophical humanist perspective, the way I
(30:56):
see our humanity as this, weare all a temporary guests on this beautiful
planet which we have called Earth.In my belief, no one owns anything.
We are a species among species,among the flowers, among the animals,
among the birds, among the waters. We are a species. And
(31:18):
the fact that we have such medicaladvancement, such scientific advancement, philosophy,
art, literature, film, there'sso much beauty in our human expression that
for me, the crisis in Israeland Palestine right now in twenty twenty three
shows us the impossibility of the nationalistframework as an artificial identitarian marker that is
(31:47):
aimed to differentiate among human beings becauseof their birthplace, and we have so
many hyphenated identities people who are comingtogether that Israel and Palestine is proving to
us again and again the failure ofthe nationalist project. And you know,
(32:07):
people are like, are you prothis? Are you pro that? Why
are you this? Why are youthat? And I have to explain,
I am pro humanity, I ampro human rights, and I will stand
with the oppressed. And I itis my hope that in some place,
you know I'm writing about this rightnow, we talk about one state to
state. We need a third state, and by that I mean we need
(32:31):
to decolonize our minds. We needa decolonial, transnational transformative justice movement where
we remove our flags, where weremove those artificial borders, that we keep
reinstating. I mean, just lookat the history of Europe in the last
four hundred years, the way theborders keep shifting. You know, one
(32:52):
day you have this identity, thenext day you have that identity. And
like all empires in history, allempires rise and fall. And we have
to find a way out of thisnationalist cycle which is just causing more death
and destruction, and which is alsofueled by the military industry, primarily by
(33:16):
the United States and also Israel becauseour global superpowers, they want us to
be fighting against one another. Theywant us to be in these heated discussions
because then they can sell more weaponsand have more power. But we really
all need to demand a decolonization ofour planet for our future. And I
(33:38):
don't mean to romanticize that. Iknow that it can sound very idealistic,
but I truly believe that that isa way out of this endless cycle of
violence. But that's a far betteridea to have than this is mine and
not anybody else's and only for meand mine, and that's it. I
completely agree and totally respect what you'resaying. And you know, I mean,
(34:00):
I'm going to ask you a question, but I'm going to also share
with the audience a personal experience thatI had when I was in my college
years and I had a professor.He was Palestinian, Sayad Hodi was his
name, Professor Hody, and hewas from Alkudz. He was from Jerusalem,
born and raised there. And heone time there was some kids in
the class and they were saying someanti smit They were saying an anti Jewish
(34:23):
things, and he said, hestopped them, he chastised them, and
he said, listen, you willnot speak of all Jews that way.
You will not speak of the Jewsin front of me like that. He
said, I've been there, thisis my homeland, this is where I
grew up. I've been there whenJewish people have stood in front of the
bulldozers and said you're not getting tothem unless you go through me. And
(34:45):
even for me at that time,when I was still like we talked about
those more radical ideally, do youknow that can very easily be planted in
youth and people of youth. Whichis why the Hitler youth was a thing,
right, this is why let's getthem early, Let's indoctrinate them with
this belief in pro Baganda. Butwhen we talk about I mean, this
(35:05):
is my question, why do youthink there are Palestinians so angry with Israelis?
How can we not think that they'reangry with us? Is the real
question. How can we not seethe suffering that the State of Israel has
inflicted on Palestinians for seventy five yearsand before that. I am also looking
(35:34):
at the forties and the late fortieshistorians like Israeli historians, Jewish Israeli historians
including Benny Morris and Elan Pappe,who in the eighties gained access to the
military and government archives and who showedproof that there was systematic desire to eradicate
(35:55):
and to remove the Palestinians so thata Jewish state could be established. And
we have to contend with that.We cannot ignore history any longer. We
have to hold space for Palestinian's anger. And I would also, I know,
I'm kind of conflating a few thingsnow. I don't appreciate also the
(36:17):
way the Holocaust is weaponized and usedby the Israeli government as a way to
justify what is happening now in theGaza strip. But there are many accounts
of massacres that were committed by Jewsin the forties, entire villages that were
erased. The university that I wentto, Tel Aviv University, is built
(36:40):
on the remains of a Palestinian village. There's an Israeli organization called Zhot which
does incredible work. They take theword zikoron, which is a masculine word
in Hebrew which means memory, andthey feminized it to offer an anti colonial,
(37:00):
anti patriarchal framework for commemorating and rememberingthe Nakaba. And you know,
they offer tours they show the villagesthat were erased and the Israeli cities and
towns that were built on the ruinsof Palestine. I think the real question
is when are we going to listenand truly give voice to Palestinian suffering and
(37:27):
to Palestinian history. And I haveto admit, when the events of October
seventh happened in about a week later, I got all these calls and text
messages like are you okay? Areyou okay? Are you okay? Is
your family okay? And you know, think the goddesses, my friends and
family are okay. And I kepton thinking we should are the Palestinians in
Gaza are okay because they're being thewhole neighborhoods are being erased. So there
(37:54):
is the Western media, Israeli media, American media. I think one of
the big things that we're dealing withis the dehumanization of Palestinians. Israeli leaders
are conflating between Hamas and Nazis.They're calling them Hamas Nazis. I really
think that the conversation should be ongiving Palestinian people, Palestinian victims, the
(38:25):
equal right to tell their story,to show the devastation and destruction that is
happening in the Gaza strip right now, to reclaim their identity, to stand
with them in their fight for selfdetermination. That's my position. Yeah,
I appreciate that, and I knowit has been difficult for you as you've
(38:45):
stood out as an advocate for humanity. You know, as I share that
with you, what right now isyour biggest call to action when it comes
to Poleople's belief systems surrounding this becauseas you pointed out these this is not
like even if there's a ceasefire,and I'm gonna keep saying this, even
if there's a ceasefire today we're not. Oh, and it's not like they're
just going to walk back in andeverything's going to be fine. We're talking
(39:07):
about I mean, children's school yearshave been canceled, you know, I
mean the destruction to just the fabricof life. Children will not know who
they belong to, they won't knowtheir birthday, they don't know where they're
from. You know, the trueword victim is a real word here.
And what the solution from Israeli is, Oh, let's put them in the
Sinai desert. And you know thatseems a bit you know, convenient and
(39:30):
things like that, but like,what is your call to action right now
when it comes to people's belief systemsand so that we can get to a
better place. So this might sounda bit, I'm going to give an
alternative solution because, to be honest, I'm seeing a lot of conversations and
(39:51):
a lot of noise too on socialmedia, and the information is out there.
I want to give a little adifferent solution. And this goes to
and perhaps I'm also speaking to youIsraelis because I am Israeli, I'm Jewish,
and it is my hope that mywork and my life mission will be
(40:12):
able to also bring in another layerand more nuance into this topic. I
think the first step, and I'mgoing to again speak from an Israeli standpoint,
is we need to regulate our nervoussystems. I know that this is
probably not something people expected to hear, but I can say as an Israeli
who I grew up. I camein my teenage years in Israel during those
(40:37):
years of the suicide bombings. Ialso volunteered as an ant and I volunteered
in Mcgaindavide, which is a firstaid ambulance service, as a teenager,
and so I know what it's liketo be part of that culture where you're
constantly alert in a state of trauma. And what I see happening right now
(40:59):
since October seventh is that Israelis arekind of stuck in like a time warp
where they're just focused on October seventh, on the fact that fourteen hundred people
were murdered and over two hundred peopleare now held hostage, and we just
pray for their lives and their safetyin the Gaza strip. But Israelis are
(41:19):
stuck in a time loop where theycannot get out of October seventh. They
cannot see what Israel is doing beyondOctober seventh, and as somebody who lived
in israel I could say, andI see this with my family and friends.
People's eyes are glued to the news. Twenty four to seven. There
are rockets falling on Israeli territories.People are scared, they're in bomb shelters,
(41:40):
They're in a state of trauma.And so when we're in a state
of trauma, we either are defensiveor we're reactive, and we're not able
to contain more information. And soI think the first step is to regulate
to get out of that trauma.We need elective efforts to work on people's
(42:02):
mental health at this time, becauseI don't think that people are in a
state to see the other side orto have even conversations, because people are
so caught up in their own nationalistregional position. So that's from an Israeli
standpoint. From a Palestinian standpoint,Palestinians in the Gaza Strip specifically, and
(42:23):
also the West Bank, because therehave been there's been a rise in settler
of violence, in military violence inthe West Bank. There have been over
one hundred Palestinians who have been killedin the last month in the West Bank,
there have been arrests of people whoare just expressing their solidarity with their
Palestinian families. In the Gaza Strip. The Israeli police are arresting Palestinians with
(42:46):
Israeli citizenship. So that's a wholeother host of issues that we're tackling with.
But we need to demand a seazfire. We as Americans need to
representatives. The information is out there. We need to call them daily,
we need to email them daily.We need to tell them that we are
(43:07):
relying on them and that we votedthem into office, and that we expect
them to call in a ceasefire sothat we can continue voting for them and
keeping them in office. I hopethat answers your question. But I really
think that all this noise and whatwe see on social media and people just
(43:27):
you know, here's a fact,and let me give you a counter fact,
and let me give you a counterfactthat is not productive by any means,
because people are now in a verynarrow minded state. There's trauma.
There's trauma in the United States ofPalestinians in the diaspora, there's trauma of
Israelis in the diaspora. There's traumaof Jews in the diaspora. And I
(43:47):
want to stress that I differentiate betweenthe State of Israel, which utilizes Judaism
and has conflated it with the nationalismversus Judaism, which is a world religion
which has nothing to do with theState of Israel. As an Israeli,
I want to say that the Stateof Israel does not define my Judaism,
(44:12):
and I do not identify with theways in which the State of Israel is
trying to define Judaism for the entireworld. And I think that the anti
Semitism has always been there regardless.Anti Semitism began before the establishment of the
State of Israel. And just onemore thing. Israeli Is also like to
say, well, you know,Palestinians didn't exist, and Palestinians didn't exist
(44:35):
before nineteen forty eight. Well letme tell you, my dear Palestinians.
Israeli Is as we know them todaydid not exist before nineteen forty eight.
My dad was born during the BritishMandate of Palestine. He was born in
Palestine. I could hypothetically say thatI'm half Palestinian. So we have to
really start looking at the groups whoare being affected by these wars that we're
(45:00):
having and by these so called conflictsthat we're having, and really start paying
attention to that and putting in ourresources towards that. Oh and I can
appreciate that. And similarly, asa Muslim, when things you know,
when I run nine to eleven happened, now you want to you standing up
saying this does not reflect our religion. We're constantly feeling like we have to
defend and by the way, condemnedterrorism as if a rational person wouldn't right
(45:22):
for people who want to because youdo amazing things. You know, you're
launching your podcast, which I absolutelylove the name of Oh my goodness,
you're where can people go to supportyou? How do you want them your
website for the audio audience that wedo have around the world, please also
state it for them. Yeah,let's let's let's know how we can support
you. Thank you so much.Yes, I'm currently on social media Maranie
(45:45):
Kornberg and my website Ronniekornberg dot com. I'm in the midst of launching a
website called Waging Hope. I wantto state very briefly that this idea came
way before us started in October seventh. My daughter's middle name is Amal,
which means hope in Arabic. AndI had an issue when I was visiting
(46:08):
back home just this last summer,and the border police my children have American
passports, and she asked me whatis your daughter's name and why would you
give her a name in Arabic?And I said to her, Aman means
hope. It's such a beautiful name. And I said, you know,
we all need a little bit ofhope, don't we. And that question
(46:30):
we all need a little bit ofhope, don't we kept on ringing in
my mind and ringing in my mind, And it was partially because I started
feeling hopeless, and I was determinedto not feel hopeless because those of us
in positions of privilege, despair isa privilege, and we have to utilize
our resources and our privileges and oureconomic privileges to fight for those who are
(46:52):
not in those positions. And sothe goal of waging hope is to bring
experts, whether it is psychologis,just scientists, artists, and really break
down this idea of hope, becauseI think hope is our birthright. I
want to create ways and even inthis devastating time. And I know I'm
(47:14):
all here, you know, didmy makeup and looking all nice and shiny.
But I am I am devastated.I am heartbroken. I cannot even
communicate the heartbreak. And at thesame time I have to believe in hope
and to tie back this idea ofpoetry and reading rereading an anthology called Against
(47:37):
Forgetting and it is a collection ofpoems throughout the years, throughout the decades,
from around the world, of poetswho are writing in war time.
And at the end of the day, this is what we have. We
have our greatest human expression, andI do not want to believe that our
greatest human expression is that of war. Our greatest human expression is that of
(47:58):
creativity. And the more we canlean into that, the more we can
lean into really the fact that ourtime here is so precious and temporary.
I will fight for that hope.I will not let what is happening diminish
me, because this is what ourleaders want and we cannot fall into that
spiral. I am so hopeful tosee Jews standing alongside Palestinians, risking and
(48:22):
getting arrested, because that is thething that we need to be focusing on,
and I will fight for that,hope. So thank you for having
me, thank you for this conversation, and I would love to connect to
your viewers. And I'm grateful forthe work that you do. I commend
you for the work that you do. I think it's such an important work
(48:42):
and we will stand together in thisstruggle for everyone. So thank you,
absolutely, thank you so so much. I appreciate you. We'll talk soon.
Thank you so much for being withus today. And to everyone else
at home at this moment, Imean, first of all, I'm just
I'm honored to have somebody who speaksso eloquently and so passionately. But at
(49:05):
this moment, ladies and gentlemen,you're either pro humanity or your pro genocide.
There is no in between. SoI hope we're all making the right
choice today for ourselves, for ourfamilies, for generations to come, and
like Moranie, I have hope,I hope you do too. Thank you
so much. We'll see you nexttime, and of course, thank you
(49:27):
for letting us be and sugarcoated.Take care
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