Paranormal Spectrum #66 Tribute Ghost Ships of the Great Lakes with Guest Shetan Noir

Welcome to Paranormal Spectrum, where we illuminate the enigmatic corners of the supernatural world. I'm your host, Barnaby Jones, and today we have a very special guest joining us:

Shetan Noir is the current owner of Squatch GQ magazine llc and also a Michigan based Author and paranormal travel Journalist. She also teaches courses on the paranormal history of the great lakes and cryptozoology of North America at Owens community college and Kellogg community College. Shetan also teaches classes for University Magikus that is co-owned by Patti Negri.

Shetan has written several books on cryptozoology and is working on more upcoming book projects. Her current book is The Hounds tooth cookbook, Bone Arfp'etit! The marvelous misadventures of teagun gray (Teagun gray meets bigfoot) Shetan has also written Flying creatures of the Midwest, Beyond mothman! In 2018, she wrote Lake monsters and odd creatures of the great lakes.

She is the active managing head writer and owner of *Squatch GQ magazine, *Cryptozoology Digest magazine, *Into the Liminal Abyss paranormal magazine (Paranormal, ufology, high strangeness), *Dinosauria and prehistoric creatures magazine, *Rockhound and prospector magazine. Shetan has been a contributing writer in the past to Supernatural magazine. She specializes in paranormal travel destinations and legend trip investigations.

Shetan Noir is also a cryptozoology researcher and has spent 25 years researching the Paranormal and Cryptozoology fields. Her fascination began with lake monsters at an early age when she first learned about the Loch Ness monster, then hearing reports of lake monsters in her own state of Michigan. Her research has since grown to include Michigan's own Dogman and Nain Rouge, Bigfoot and ghost hunting. Shetan Noir is currently the lead investigator for the Michigan chapter of the North American Dogman Project, and also runs the paranormal investigation team of Michigan center for unexplained events and phenomenon.

Shetan noir has been on many expeditions for cryptozoology in Michigan, Pennsylvania Minnesota, Ohio, Vermont, New York, Tennessee, North Carolina, Shetan has also done paranormal investigations at Randolph county insane asylum, Detroits 6th precinct, Graestone Manor, Historic Hoover house, Gettysburg, Historic Scott county jail.

Sasquatch GQ Magazine
https://www.amazon.com/stores/Squatch-GQ-magazine-LLC/author/B0BNWHN44J?ref=ap_rdr&isDramIntegrated=true&shoppingPortalEnabled=true&ccs_id=60cf4b1e-fed6-4f98-b7f2-2a0845803b08

Shetan on Amazon
https://www.amazon.com/stores/Shetan-Noir/author/B00BBO6VJI?ref=sr_ntt_srch_lnk_1&qid=1742744241&sr=8-1&isDramIntegrated=true&shoppingPortalEnabled=true&ccs_id=348559f7-778f-4c73-af10-2c3d2332e6d3

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Episode Transcript

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Speaker 5 (02:56):
Stops Good morning everybody, and welcome to the Paranormal Spectrum.
I am your host, Barnaby Jones here on the Untold
Radio Network. We are going to be live and pre
recorded on today's show today, and there's a very special

(03:20):
reason for that. See, my guest actually has passed away.
So what happened was we had some pre recorded episodes
together that were to air when my live guests sometimes
don't show up, and then instead of having no episode
for you guys to enjoy each and every week, I
had some pre recorded episodes that I could slide into

(03:44):
those slots. And one of those we recorded to this
day has actually already aired, but this one, fortunately I
haven't needed so far. And I thought that we would
do today's episode as a tribute to Sheitan because she
has passed away. So throughout today's episode, if you have

(04:04):
any comments or any nice memories or anything with she Tan,
throw them in the comments section. And even though this
is a recorded show going later on, I will be
monitoring it and I will throw them up on the
screen for anyone to share those memories and enjoy with
she Tan. So that is what we're going to be

(04:24):
doing today. It's going to be a really good episode.
We're going to be talking about ghost ships of the
Great Lakes, so it's coming up in just second here.
But guys, if you guys have not checked out, we
have a brand new documentary, Wisconsin's The Hairyman of dairy Land.
Wisconsin's Bigfoot is out now on Patreon and on Paraflex

(04:47):
Paranormal Plus. You can check it out on either of
those streaming platforms and check that episode out and let's see. Then,
if you guys want to meet us in person this Saturday,
we are going to be at Sasquatch's Variety Shop in Princeton, Wisconsin.
We are going to be selling some merchandise, selling some

(05:09):
stuff out there outside of Sasquatch's Variety Shop, which is
right across the street from the Princeton Flea Market, so
you guys can come out and make a whole morning
of it. Check out the flea Market, check out Sasquatches,
as well as check out the Caps team. Myself, Ma,
Chris and Ellie are all going to be appearing out
there this weekend, probably from seven am until noon one o'clock,

(05:34):
so come on out and enjoy that with us. Then, guys,
we are going to be at Silicon in Gay's, Illinois
September nineteenth and twentieth. We are coming to the Van
Meter Visitor Festival September twenty seventh, and I am doing
a public presentation exploring the paranormal at the Nina Public

(05:55):
Library on October twenty ninth. I'm sorry, I'm not just
not doing well today. So ah, and then guys, next
year coming up, we are going to be at Cape Gerardo,
Missouri for CAPCN Missouri April seventeenth through the nineteenth and
Fond Delac, Wisconsin, May eighth through the tenth. So that

(06:17):
is what we got coming up here. But today, guys,
I want to I want to thank you guys for
tuning in and sharing this with me as we pay
tribute to Sheetan Noir, today we remember the life of
Tracy Purl, better known to the paranormal Encryptid community as
she Tan Noir. She Tan may be best remembered by

(06:42):
her signature, styling, her hair, clothing, and even her vendor
booth at events was all teal, which made her stand
out in the crowd just as much as her shining
and energetic personality. Looking back, she Tan was born to
be seen perform and be the star attraction. She brought

(07:02):
this to her role as a performer of Belly Dance,
Fire and Swords, not only on the stage, but her
role as an inspiration and teacher to others who wished
to follow her lead. Performing with cabarets, side shows and fairs,
as well as doing tarot readings, she Tan was always

(07:23):
in the spotlight. She Tan is probably best known for
her role as cryptozoologist, having spent twenty five years researching
the paranormal and cryptozoology fields and participating in expeditions in Michigan, Pennsylvania, Minnesota, Ohio, Vermont,
New York, Tennessee, and North Carolina. Her fascination began with

(07:48):
lake monsters at an early age, when she first learned
about the Lochness Monster, then hearing reports of lake monsters
in her own state of Michigan. Her research since grew
to include Michigan's own dog Man, the Nine Rouge, Bigfoot,
and ghost hunting. She was the lead investigator for the

(08:10):
Michigan chapter of the North American dog Man Project and
also ran the paranormal investigation team of the Michigan Center
for Unexplained Events and Phenomenon. Shetan has also done paranormal
investigations at the Randolph County Insane Asylum, Detroit's Sixth Precinct,

(08:31):
Graystone Manor, Historic Hoover House, Gettysburg, and the Historic Scott
County Jail. She has taught courses on the paranormal history
of the Great Lakes and cryptozoology of North America at
Owen's Community College and Kellogg Community College, as well as
classes for the University of MAGICUS that is co owned

(08:53):
by Patty Nigger. She Tan was a respected member of
the paranormal and crypto zoology community and a frequent guest
on podcasts as well as library presentations and conventions, presenting
on a wide range of topics. A self proclaimed rockhound
and general collector, this interest expanded to fossils and of course,

(09:18):
dinosaurs of the land, air, and sea, including sharks and
other marine creatures. As owner of Sasquatch GQ Magazine, LLC,
she brought this interest to others with the publication of
Dinosauria and Prehistoric Creatures Rockhound and Prospector Magazine, as well

(09:38):
as into the Liminal Abyss Paranormal Magazine and Sasquatch GQ Magazine.
She Tan had an immense love of all animals, and
a passion for visiting zoos and aquariums. But most of all,
she loved her own furry family that she took everywhere
with her. She Tan is survived by her parents and

(10:04):
two brothers, and in the memories of those who she
has influenced along the way. Again, thank you guys so

(10:34):
much for joining us today as we pay tribute to
the one and only she Tan no Air, a good
friend of myself and many on my team as well.
I got to meet her in ann Arbor, Michigan for
the first time back in twenty twenty and have since
spoke with her at several conventions and been included on
many panels with her as well. As you saw towards

(10:54):
the end of that documentary there or the tribute and
so unfortunate of her passing. But as I said today,
we have a special, unreleased recorded episode with her about
ghost ships in the Great Lakes. So as we go
through today's show, if you guys have any polite comments

(11:15):
or thoughts or memories with she t she Tan, throw
them in the comments section and I'll pop the up
on screen as we watch today's episode together. So without
any further ado, please enjoy it. Today's episode with Sheetan
Noir and ghost Ships of the Great Lakes. I'll see
you at the end. Back to the show, Sheetan Noir.

(11:50):
Welcome back, she Tan Well, hello again, Hello Ah again.
I want to thank you again because we are doing
a couple of these shows here today to kind of
fill in whenever I have an emergency or something and
I guess no shows or something comes up, so who
knows when this is gonna air, But we are here
to share some really cool stories and stuff because, like

(12:13):
I said, every time that I have you on my show,
I learned something and I learned something about you, and
everything is just it's really fun and entertaining. And today
we have a really interesting topic that I know that
you do presentations on and I've a lot of research on,
and I have ever heard you talk about this before.
So today I'm excited because I get to take a

(12:34):
back seat to this because this is something that very
little about. Surprisingly that it's right here in my own backyard,
under the water and so on and so forth. So
we're gonna be talking about ghost ships of the Great Lakes.

Speaker 6 (12:47):
Now.

Speaker 5 (12:48):
I told you there's two ghost ships that I know about. Now,
the first one, the first one, we're gonna it's probably
a gimme, you know, gimme, gimme Gucci because it's the
great leg Gimmy Gucci. There you go. That was my
very very bad joke of the show. So now that
that's out of the way.

Speaker 2 (13:06):
Uh.

Speaker 5 (13:06):
The Edmund Fitzgerald, Okay, that is that is my one
big one that I know here of the great lakes
that went down and the whole song, you know, the
legend lives on from who hasn't heard that song. It's amazing.
All right, if I sing any more of it, we're
gonna get copyrighted. So I'm not gonna do that, Doug anyway.
So that one and thanks to my good friend, our

(13:33):
good friend Chad Lewis, I am aware of God. So
those are my two ships, the Edmund Fitzgerald and the
Christmas Tree Ship.

Speaker 6 (13:44):
Okay, the Rock Simmons.

Speaker 5 (13:46):
There you go. All right, So that's that is the Uh.
I know there's a lot of haunted lighthouses but count
as ships and stuff, but uh.

Speaker 6 (13:56):
No, And honestly, so just to give you some info,
this is my second favorite topic to talk about. My
first favorite is lake monsters. But so.

Speaker 5 (14:15):
One second we're gonna we're gonna get into this right here,
but I want to point out you have an entire
book on lake monsters and other creatures of the Great Lakes,
So I assume that there's quite a bit of history
and knowledge that you have on the Great Lakes, and probably,
maybe hopefully, we're going to hear some stories of maybe
lake monsters closing ghost ships.

Speaker 6 (14:37):
Maybe maybe probably not not not like that, because a
lot of our our shipwrecks are due to weather anomalies.
So being that I teach a course for community colleges
on the paranormal history of the Great Lakes, I've done

(15:00):
bit of research into our Great Lakes, and so there's
a rough estimate that the bare minimum of sunken ships
resting on the bottoms of the Great Lakes is twenty
thousand ships. I actually think that numbers higher. I think

(15:20):
that the number is actually maybe closer to fifty thousand,
because that's not taking into account the very early ships, canoes,
you know, rowboats, I guess, yeah, yeah. Most people when

(15:42):
they think of a shipwreck, they're thinking either Spanish galleon
or a tall ship or a freighter, and they're not
really taking into account of the small personal crafts that
like everyday fishermen would use, fur trappers would use, but
those kind of boats too. So you have to keep

(16:03):
in mind that a sunken ship or a ship that's
gone down on the Great Lakes, anything qualifies from a
kayak all the way up to one of the Lakers freighter.

Speaker 5 (16:16):
Now, when you're talking about ships and stuff, are you
also counting the amount of cars and vehicles out there
from ice fishers that go through.

Speaker 6 (16:22):
I'm not counting those, even though there is there is
a ship that sank with four I believe it was
over four hundred Nash Ramblers on it, and it was
the week the week before or after Black Friday or

(16:45):
no Black Thursday when the stock market crashed, so that
motor company was never able to recover from that loss.
And the ship sits an under just over four hundred
feet water, so it's not even a recreational dive. There's
no way they can ever bring those up. So yeah,

(17:06):
those are those are gone. But so you mentioned two
at the beginning. The Ralph Simmons I would classify as
a ghost ship. Edmund Fitzgerald I put into a different
category because people don't see the Edmund Fitzgerald sailing the waters.

(17:33):
Some of it's like, so it's bell has been brought up,
Its ships, fell has been brought up, different artifacts have
been brought up off of it, and the locations that
those artifacts are stored at. Some people say are haunted
because of the Edmund Fitzgerald. But the only thing that

(17:54):
is haunting about Edmund Fitzgerald is the fact that there
are human remains on her and around her, which makes
it a underwater grave site. But he has never been
seen sailing since the day that she sank. There are

(18:19):
other ships that have been reported as being seen out
on the lake even though we know that they have sank,
and the Ralph Simmons the Christmas Tree Ship is one
of those ships. Very cool.

Speaker 5 (18:33):
Yeah, I wasn't implying I guess that the Edmund Fitzgerald
was a ghost ship. I was just kind of mentioning
the only.

Speaker 6 (18:39):
Two that so, the Edmond Fitzgerald or the Mighty fits
is one of the most popular and well known shipwrecks
in the world. The other would be the Titanic.

Speaker 5 (18:56):
Yeah, well that wasn't in the Great Lakes though.

Speaker 6 (18:59):
No, But they we're talking shipwrecks. People know the Titanic,
and they know the Edmund Fitzgerald And that's only because
of the Gordon Lightfoot song.

Speaker 5 (19:10):
Correct.

Speaker 6 (19:11):
Like I said, there's rough estimate minimum over twenty thousand
ships have sank in the Great Lakes. Edmond Fitzgerald was
the one that Gordon Lightfoot sang a song about. And
while they did go down during a storm, that wasn't
even the worst storm that the Great Lakes have ever seen. Okay,

(19:35):
So the Alpina Storm took down ninety ships in one evening.
That storm happened on in October day. There was a

(19:57):
blizzard blowing from Nebraska east, so it was picking up
speed as it came across the plains. Now, what drops
the temperature of the water and the Great Lakes and
produces the lake effects snow is the wind. So people

(20:20):
went out sailing on this. It was middle of October day,
perfectly beautiful day, seventy degrees. A lot of people were
doing their last boat rides of the season, and nobody
knew that this weatherfront was coming. As soon as it

(20:45):
got dark, the wind started to pick up and the
temperature started to drop. They went from a seventy degree
day to a blizzard at midnight. There were ships that
were headed from Michigan to Wisconsin that got completely turned
around and ended up back at Michigan. Those were the

(21:09):
lucky ones because they actually made it back to shore.
So the reason that this storm was called the Alpina
Storm was there was a sidewheel paddled ship called the
Alpina that got hot in a bay, exposed, and the
wind was basically using her as a wrecking ball and

(21:33):
smashed all the ships on each side of her. Now
this was Lake Michigan. Then it blew across the state
of Michigan and hit Lake Huron, so it picked up
even more speed. So midday October degrees. By twelve o'clock

(22:02):
that night, it's an instant blizzard, and people are caught
out on the lake unprepared in a blooded type situation,
and the water starts to freeze. Now we have an
interesting phenomenon here in the Great Lakes where you will

(22:24):
have great sheets of ice until you get to the shoreline,
and then you have boulders of ice rocking back and
forth in the water. They're essentially battering rams. So even
if you could get close to shore, unless you could

(22:45):
jump that six ten feet and hit actual land, you
are getting pulverized by boulders of ice. So this was
a very bad situation for anybody who was caught out
on that sort of and that was just one of

(23:07):
the major storms that happened.

Speaker 5 (23:12):
So we have a ferry. Let's let's kind of back
up here. So we have Lake Michigan Lake Huron on
either side. Lake Michigan is between Wisconsin and Michigan, right, yes,
And then you have you said Lake Huron is on
the other side of Michigan.

Speaker 6 (23:29):
Yep, that it's so Michigan. So over on this side
we have Lake Michigan up above here is Lake Michigan
connecting into Lake Huron. Lake Huron's over in the on
the thumb side, and the other land border would be Canada.

(23:52):
Lake Superior is Michigan. On the bottom, the nor or
the south west corner is Wisconsin. Then it goes up
the north shore of Minnesota, and then it goes Canada
all the way across the top and back down the

(24:15):
east side. South Lake Erie is bordered by parts of Michigan, Ohio,
New York, and on top Ontario. Lake Ontario is completely
surrounded by Ontario. All are connected by different waterways.

Speaker 5 (24:41):
Perfect, all right, So I want to get that out here,
so we know we're five of them. And then so
we have a ferry that goes from Wisconsin to Michigan.
How long I haven't taken it, but I thought I've ever.

Speaker 6 (24:57):
Been on it. It's perfect, safe, but it costs. It costs.
So her passions here is like one hundred and nineteen dollars.
That's not even including your car to get it on
so to me car by the way, yeah, and it costs.

(25:18):
It costs the same amount and as long to drive
around and up for anything I want to do in
Illinois or Wisconsin. So I'd rather just drive, even though
I have to go through Chicago, I'd still just rather drive.

Speaker 5 (25:34):
Okay. So my point then is how long does it
take do you know to get from the Wisconsin side
to the Michigan side with the ferry.

Speaker 6 (25:41):
I believe it's about four or five hours okay in
good weather.

Speaker 5 (25:46):
Okay, so four or five hours, so we'll say even
that six hours. So when we're talking about these ghost
ships and stuff, you said that these ships were caught
out in midnight in Lake Lake, Michigan, right, So why
are they out on the water at midnight crossing the water.

Speaker 6 (26:03):
So most of your passenger ships. The Alpino was a
side wheeled passenger ship. She was going from Michigan to Wisconsin.
But that's a slower ship. It's a steam powered yeah,
so it's it's going to be slower than your modern

(26:26):
day car ferries. The rest of most of the ships
that were caught out that day were Some of them
were passenger ships, like the sidewheel paddle Alpina, but most
of them were schooners or freight ships that were trying
to make a run down to like Chicago, across to

(26:49):
Wisconsin or up to Michigan's up to take freight.

Speaker 5 (26:59):
And up and down the lake instead of just straight.

Speaker 6 (27:02):
Away, and a lot of those, so you're depending on
what ship you had, you're never at an advantage. Okay,
your side wheeled, wheeled paddle ships were not really designed
for the Great Lakes. Yes, you could take more passengers,
but those side paddles only go so fast. If you

(27:27):
had a stail ship or a schooner that had sails,
you are driven by the wind. If the winds are
nice and steady, you're great, But if you're in a storm,
your sails are getting torn apart. So you think, okay, well,

(27:48):
I'd rather have a steamship. That's great until you get
stuck in the trough of the waves and your ship's
not making progress and you start taking on water. And
every sailor and captain knew once your ship started, if
you had a steamship, you only had so much amount

(28:09):
of time. If your ship started taking on water, you
only had so much time to get away from the
ship before it exploded. Because what happens when ice cold
water hits a burning, hot steam oven, it explodes. And

(28:32):
those up until you're mid nineteen hundreds, those were the
only you had your coal burning stoves, you know, your
coal burning engines, You had your wood burning engines, you
had your steam engines. You had your sail ships, and
you had your side padals, and none of them were

(28:57):
really that great. On the on the Great Lakes sounds
like it.

Speaker 5 (29:02):
Yeah. I Mean for me, when I hear about the
paddleships and stuff, I think of, you know, like Huck
Finn and stuff going down the Mississippi or you know
the river the African Queen or I don't know if
that's the pelship, but you know that's that's what I pictures.

Speaker 6 (29:18):
Yeah, side pedel ships. They work great on rivers, Yeah,
because rivers are much more controlled with having two close
bodies of land that you know, they can they can
pilot up and down them. But the Great Lakes, they
are such big, vast open spaces that when there's any

(29:41):
type of wind that picks up, the waves also react.
And there's a phenomenon with the Great Lakes called the
Three Sisters, and it's actually what I believe took down
the Edmund Fitzgerald. So the first way that hits the
boat and you know, slams against it, is twenty feet.

(30:06):
That's a big wall of water. But as soon as
that wall of water has hit the boat, another one's
hitting it, and that one's probably forty feet, but that
one's crashing over the top of the boat. Now, if
you haven't secured all of your hatches down, you're taking
on water. So that forty foot wave has already pushed

(30:31):
your boat kind of down in the front. Well, now
here comes a sixty foot wave that crashes right behind
it and takes your boat even further under the water.
Edmund Fitzgerald hit the lake bottom going at full speed.
That's what tore her in half. She dug into the

(30:54):
lake bed of Lake Superior. She was going at full speed.
Now they were also in a storm, so that accounts
for the wave of activity.

Speaker 5 (31:14):
Interesting. Yeah, I've never been well, I've been on canoes
and stuff. I've never been on a boat that I
can think of. So I think maybe we used to go.

Speaker 6 (31:24):
We used to go out on Lake Michigan perch fishing
on the different trawlers or fishing, you know, charters. I
think the last time I was in a boat boat like, well,
it wasn't a boat boat. I was out on Lake
here On and I kayaked out to see turn Up
Rock with my friend and her son, and then we

(31:44):
kayaked back. But even that, it was smooth going out.
But when we were coming back there was a fifteen
inch chop on the water and it was like, okay,
are we there. Yeah, it's about an hour kayaking both ways,

(32:04):
and it was like getting rougher and rougher.

Speaker 5 (32:10):
All right, Well, let's talk about ghost ships then, So, okay,
ships are people seeing out there? Tell me? Tell me
the ghost stories here.

Speaker 6 (32:17):
Okay, So when we're talking ghost ships of the Great Lakes,
the three most popular ones would be the Ralph Simmons,
the Christmas Tree Ship the ham Loops and she's a

(32:38):
ghost ship for a different reason. And then there is
the story of the Bean in Neckburn. So the Ralph
Simmons which is made famous because she was a Christmas
tree ship. So there was a standing tradition that all

(32:59):
boats had to be in their moorings and docked by
the Thursday after Black Friday. So you had all these
last minute ships and captains going up to the up
of Michigan Escanaba area and collecting Christmas trees. And then

(33:23):
they would sail down the coasts of Wisconsin, Illinois, and
Michigan going into each port selling off Christmas trees. Now,
the Ralph Simmons with Captain Santa was very popular with
the different ports because he would sell the Christmas trees
at like bargain, you know, crisis, which meant a lot

(33:49):
of families who could maybe all they could afford was
a Christmas tree. These families got a Christmas tree and
he would come sailing into Heart with lights done up
saying Christmas Tree Ship. And he had a long white
beard and he was very popular with a lot of

(34:13):
the different ports because of this. So the Ralph Simmons
was actually way past her prime when she sank, and
a lot of people thought she shouldn't have been on
the water in the first place. But according to the
source material that we have, he had as many Christmas

(34:34):
trees on her as he could fit. Her holes were
filled with Christmas trees, her deck was filled with Christmas trees.
And as he was selling her across Lake Michigan to Wisconsin,
they ran into a storm, and now through the fog banks,

(34:57):
a Coastguard cutter or a Coastguard captain saw that they
were struggling, but they had already passed his station, so
he called down to the next station for that station
to send out a light ship to help them. Within

(35:22):
that time, she sank. Now a lot of people will
ask why didn't they take to the life ship or
to the you know, lifeboat or abandoned ship. So what
happens when you're carrying logs or lumber, or trees or

(35:42):
anything like that on a ship. As soon as those
logs or trees break loose on the deck and they're
floating around the ship, they're battering rams. You jump into
the water and you're getting smashed with a thousand pounds
and you know, treat or branch or debris, and your

(36:08):
lifeboat isn't going to do much. You know better either
because your lighteboats. Most lifeboats were not built to a
stand a storm on the Great Lakes. You're you're probably
familiar with this term, but it's false hope, and that

(36:32):
is what a life ship was. False hope. It was
the last like it was. It was basically there to
give you the idea that you had a safe option.
They they never were. So the Rouse Simmons sinks, and

(36:56):
over the next couple of years they find different like
clues that say yes, she sank. One is all these
Christmas trees started floating ashore. Then they find the captain's wallet,
and eventually they were able to find the Rouse Simmons

(37:19):
resting underneath the water with a cargo hold full of
Christmas tree ships. Now it's said that along that coastline
up to I believe it's three Harbors Wisconsin or two
Harbors Wisconsin, that on days when there are bouts of fog,

(37:43):
you might see the Rouse Simmons. If you're out on
the lake and a fog starts coming in and you
start smelling pine trees then that's an indication that the
Rouse Simmons is probably nearby, and that's an omen for
you to get off the lake. Generally, ghost ships appear

(38:05):
when bad weather is going to happen, and it's like
the supernatural purreanormal indicator that you should get off the lake. Now, wow,
that was.

Speaker 5 (38:26):
Pulling up a picture here. Well it didn't work. Uh
not that do this share screen window. There you go,
that's the actual Roast Simmons. Like you can actually see
the little tree still. Yeah, I know in Chad's presentation

(38:50):
he has a picture of the inside hold had all
the trees, and I was looking for that picture but
I didn't. I don't see that one come up here.
But yeah, anyway, I don't know. I thought it was
kind of cool because I want to see the picture.
But yeah, yeah, they found the ship and they showed

(39:10):
it all. So yeah, that's sad. That's that's really sad.
Like I mean, like cargo ship goes down or something,
or I mean a passengership, you lose lives and that
I mean that's all. Don't get me wrong, but like
you know, like you said, this guy was well beloved,
you know, a great guy. You know, anybody that wanted
a tree got one for Christmas.

Speaker 6 (39:31):
And now I do, I do have a side story
to that. So there's my goblin curing me. So I
was doing my Haunted Great Legs presentation and talking about
the the Rause Simmons, and there was a gentleman who

(39:51):
was watching it on zoom and he had a relative
who was on the Rauh Simmons and this was an
uncle of his.

Speaker 5 (40:01):
And.

Speaker 6 (40:04):
The way he told it to me, so yeah, it
was actually two of his uncles. So they were on
the row Simmons, and they had joined the crew late.
They were really not expecting the weather that they were experiencing,
so they had not packed any winter clothing. So they

(40:28):
get into their homeport in Wisconsin and they beg Captain
Santa to let them go home. They only live maybe
a mile away from the where the boat is docked.
Let us go home, get our world clothing, come back.
We'll sail down to Illinois with you and then you know,

(40:51):
we'll make our way back off on our own. And okay, yeah,
you guys need winter clothing. So they get a cab.
So the cab was new to the area did not
even though they're giving them directions, the cabby doesn't get
them to their home and back before the Ralph Simmons
sets sail again. So the boys get back to the

(41:13):
dock and the Ralph Simmons is already on our way.
So the boys, who ended up being this stoneman's uncles,
make arrangements to get down to the next harbor that
they're going to you know, sail into as they're in

(41:35):
out route for that. Well that's when the Ralph Simmons sinks.
So because they went home for their coats, they actually
were able to live on.

Speaker 5 (41:51):
Wow, where did it actually go down?

Speaker 6 (41:55):
So it's the closest point is I want to say,
two Harbors, Wisconsin, and it's like offshore. It's it's it's
a ways off the shore. I think it's still considered

(42:16):
a recreational dive because it's just within that. I think
it's up to one hundred and fifty feet is a
recreational dive and then anything after that is a technical dive.
So because I know people do go down and take
pictures of the Christmas trees and stuff like that, the

(42:40):
only person so down in Illinois you have Captain Santa's
wife and daughters waiting for him and he never comes.
So once they received reports that Christmas trees are floating ashore,
then they knew that something had happened to the Rouse

(43:02):
Simmons and he was never coming home again. And it
took a couple of years before I believe it was
a fishing trawler in his nets. He brought up the
wallet of the captain and it had personal artifacts of
the captain in the wallet, so they were pretty sure

(43:25):
that it was Captain Santa.

Speaker 5 (43:32):
And as the ship was going down, Captain Santa unbound
all the trees on the deck so that the trees
would float and go all the way down the lake
down Illinois and everyone would still get a Christmas tree,
even if he couldn't make it. Very touching story. All
right now you cannot disband that truth. I will take

(43:57):
that to my grave. Okay, awesome, that's cool. So what
is what is the next But the.

Speaker 6 (44:06):
Next one I'm going to tell you about is the
ss kam Loops and the ship sank in Lake Superior.
Now she sits an over four hundred feet of water,
so she is a technical dive, meaning meaning anybody who's

(44:28):
dove on her you have to be certified. And it's
only marine archaeologists and environmental scientists who actually dive on her. Now,
the reason she's a ghost ship is not because she
comes back up in sales. It's because she still has

(44:51):
a human corpse on her. So now imagine you're you're
four hundred feet of water. There's no quick ascent to
the top, just like in salt water. You can't go
immediately from the from the depths to the top, or

(45:12):
you'll get the bends, you'll get air bubbles in your blood.
So as scientists environmentalists would go swimming through the kamloops,
a all white skeleton like rubbery skeleton of a human

(45:34):
being would come there, it goes, a goblin would go,
would come floating out of different parts of the ship
because as they swam through the ship, it would create
a wake and would animate the corpse. So now they

(45:54):
go down in teams and they warn people, Okay, you
know old Whitey or the captain or whoever you want
to call him, is down there. Don't freak out when
this corpse comes out and starts interacting with you. It's
just the waves. But that's still like the scariest thing.

(46:19):
And we know that the captain did not go down
with the ship. So a lot of times the corpses
that you find on the ships are the cooks and
the sailors who were not on duty, who are actually
sleeping in their bunks or in their wherever they were

(46:43):
catching a you know, a nap because they were the
ones who were caught off guard. So your your cooks
are usually in the galley trying to keep everything from
flying all over the place, trying to keep coffee going,
maybe a hot meal going for those crew members who

(47:03):
are battling with the storm. And if you're trying to
sleep through it, like because storms can come out of
nowhere on the Great Lakes and you can go to
sleep and it's totally peaceful, water's calm, and then you
can wake up to like being thrown out of your
bunk because the wave action is so very very hard.

(47:25):
So a lot of times when we find or hear
of bodies being inside the ships, generally it is either
the cook or it is the crew member who unfortunately
was sleeping during that storm. My goblin, the goblin goblin.

(47:53):
So with the kam loops and now there's a goblin
war going on with the caam loops, she was caught.
There was actually two ships sailing, and the kam Loops
was caught off guard with the wave and storm, and

(48:15):
she sank in front of the other ship. Now this
was in icey, icy weather, and the crew that did
make it off of the ship were able to get
to some of the Apostle Islands. Unfortunately, there's no at

(48:38):
that time, there was no shelters on the Apostle Islands,
and so most of the crew rose to death on
the islands and were not found until the following spring.

Speaker 5 (48:50):
Did they become cannibals.

Speaker 6 (48:53):
No, but a lot of them were eaten by wolves, coyotes,
things like that.

Speaker 5 (49:00):
That'll be funny to anyone who actually watches all the
episodes in order. Anyway, that's I think if I think
this is the right ship, I looked up here, but
this is a big ship.

Speaker 6 (49:14):
It is it is.

Speaker 5 (49:18):
So tell me again, just real quick, how what happened
to this one? How did it go down? Storm?

Speaker 6 (49:23):
Obviously, but storm winter storm. I believe it was the
cue doc. Was it the cue doc that was sailing
alongside of her and on their radar they said they
saw they saw something large raise up out of the
water and then disappear. Back down. So the thought is

(49:44):
that she struck something maybe a block of you know,
an ice, a sandbar, something like that, and she hit
that and.

Speaker 5 (49:56):
Then she sank went the way of the Titanic U.

Speaker 6 (50:00):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (50:03):
Interesting. So the people, so you talked about the captain
or the cooker or whatever being seen on there, but
do people still see the ship itself.

Speaker 6 (50:13):
No, they don't, Okay, So the cantloft is she's a
ghost ship for a different reason. And then she actually
has a ghost on her and she's you know, sitting
at the bottom of Lake Superior. So and the reason
that the corpse is still so very well preserved is
one it's in the confines of the ship. And two

(50:36):
that ship is basically like a deep freeze. Yeah, because
the bottom, the temperatures at the bottom of Lake Superior
are so cold that no bacteria can form. And if
you don't have bacteria, you don't bloat, and if you

(50:56):
don't bloat, you don't float.

Speaker 5 (50:59):
Yep, yep, yep, yep. That's right.

Speaker 6 (51:03):
There's there's that line in the Edmond Fitzgerald song like
Superior never gives up her dad, And that's the reason why,
is because she's so cold that she just keeps whoever
he wants.

Speaker 5 (51:20):
That's a good song. I would play it if I could,
but everyone should go look it up. Very cool, all right,
and you have one more. What's what's that's what's the
next one?

Speaker 6 (51:30):
Okay? So the next one is the bandonck Burn?

Speaker 5 (51:33):
Yeah, sure, how do you spell that?

Speaker 6 (51:44):
Keep talking?

Speaker 5 (51:44):
I'm fine of a picture.

Speaker 6 (51:46):
I'm trying not to laugh. So the Band of Knockburn
was a large freighter and during her era, it was
not uncommon to have very young crews. So the Band
of that Burn her crew were between the ages of

(52:07):
fifteen and twenty two. And once you see how big
of a ship she was, you'll realize how like awe
inspiring that is. Wow. So imagine a twenty two year
old captain piloting that bad boy across Lake Superior.

Speaker 5 (52:31):
Well, now when was this because like a lot of
the times, you know, people were I mean we think
of being in that or whatever. Yeah. So but back
in the life, expectancy wasn't that long. When you turn
fifteen sixteen, you you had a job, you had a
found you were you were ready to go.

Speaker 6 (52:50):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (52:52):
Wow, Okay, so twenty two year old captain, young crew.

Speaker 6 (52:57):
So she's last seen making her way across Lake Superior,
and the captains of other boats are seeing her, but
they're seeing her disappear in and out of the fog banks.
And because there is fog and some weather out on
Lake Superior, most of the captains are minding their own business.

(53:18):
They're paying attention to their ships. But at least one
captain notices that she's kind of taking a weird route
along like the lake shore, and he soon loses track
of her and the fog. Well that's the last she's seen.

(53:39):
A week goes by and she doesn't make port. A
couple of weeks go by, a month, After three months,
everybody's pretty sure she sank, and she's written off as
you know, being shipwrecked. She's gone. And then a couple

(54:02):
of years later there's another ship that is sailing along
that same course, but they're doing so because they're caught
in a very bad storm. And the captain's idea is,

(54:22):
if we stay in water just deep enough, if we
get into trouble, we can abandon ship and at least
make it to shore. We can see the shoreline. And
they're thinking this is a pretty you know, good plan,

(54:42):
seeing as we're struggling in this you know storm to
make any progress on the lake. And as they're making
their way along, one of the men start to yell
out and alert and he's yelling ship ahead, ship ahead.
And the men on the ship go out and they're like, oh,

(55:06):
you got to be kidding me. You know, here comes this.
There is a ship headed straight for them. So they
are they're raising their lights, they're ringing their bells, and
this ship is this oncoming ship is not like changing course.
So the captain says, okay, steer out into the lake.

(55:26):
We're going to bypass them. So they do, and as
the oncoming ship passes them, of course, this crew goes
out and they're making some unkind words. They're giving some
hand gestures, a couple of you know salutes, you know,
just showing their displeasurey at the fact that you know,

(55:49):
you ran us off our course and now we're in peril.
So that ship passes them and they're like, fine, let's
get back onto our route. So they and it's an
effort for them to get back onto their route. Storms
even that much worse now, and the captains like, just

(56:10):
stay on this route. We're in deep enough water. Will
be okay. Well, one of the men on deck starts
yelling at them, ship ahead, Ship ahead, And now they're
thinking that either the captain doesn't know what he's doing
and he's in the wrong, you know, lane of traffic,

(56:34):
or these other captains are just trying to do the
same thing as they are doing. So once again, they're
raising their lights, they're ringing their bells, trying to get
the other crew's attention to no avail. And as they
jut out into the water again, as the ship gets closer,

(56:58):
they realize same ship that just passed us, And then
the captain and the crew are questioning themselves, like, how
is that possible that they were able to go past us,
circle around and come right back on a straight course
for us when we're struggling just to make a straight line.

(57:23):
Something something's not right. So the captain and crew are like,
they want to see who's on the ship. So as
the ship starts to pass them, they read the name
on the side of the ship and it says ben
Anduckburn and they all get quiet for a second beer,

(57:50):
oh crap, that's that ship sank. And by now they're
they're a cross from each other, and the bannonack Burn's
moving past them, and they're they're all stood pretty stunned
and quiet. And as the story goes, they get maybe

(58:17):
an eighth of the mile past the bandanack Burn and
they hear a loud explosion and it's their thoughts that
the bandonack Burn chased them off, of course, because they
were headed for a rock outcropping that the bannonack Burn
hit and that's what took her down. And so the

(58:40):
crew of the bannonack Burn was trying to save this
new ship from the similar fate.

Speaker 5 (58:50):
So was the bannanock Burn, the ghost version of it,
traveling the same direction that they Yeah, yep, wow, So
that I mean, it's hard enough to talk about like
ghosts in a house or something like that and why

(59:11):
they're there, But why are we seeing like not just
a person, Because a person we can argue and say, Okay,
it has a soul, it has energy and there now
you're seeing an entire metal. This thing is metal. So
it's a big metal object.

Speaker 6 (59:32):
It's not so much it's not so much the boats
and the crews. It's the element in which they're lost.
So we know that water is a great conductor for
paranormal activity. But we also know that quarts is a
great conductor of paranormal activity. And what is sand, It's

(59:54):
billions of tiny little quartz particles. Most of the bedrock,
most of the rock around the Great Lakes and in
the Great Lakes has a high amount of quartz crystal
in it, therefore making the Great Lakes the perfect paranormal

(01:00:21):
like area for any type of ghostly activity.

Speaker 5 (01:00:31):
I suppose, I don't know, It's just you can't wrap
your head around stuff like that lake.

Speaker 6 (01:00:37):
And you know we look at so why do you
Most hauntings happen. It's because a life was cut short,
or was cut short in such a way that there
is so much intense sorrow or pain or anxiety or

(01:00:58):
terror that the person whose spirit is still haunting they
need closure and they're never going to get it because
there's no healing from what they died from. And I
can't think of any more horrifying of a way to

(01:01:19):
die than you go down in a sinking ship and
you know there's no one coming to rescue you. Your
air pocket might only last you a couple of hours,
but by then you're going to have freeze, frozen to
death or have hypothermia because of the cold waters. So

(01:01:39):
you don't die instantly. You die after the fact. So
the ship that you're on sink. You're still alive, but
there's no way you're getting to the surface.

Speaker 5 (01:01:55):
Yeah, you die in a fire or something. You get
aphyxiated mok takes you out pretty quick before anything else
and extrocuted. You basically shock yourself to death. And I mean,
drowning's got to be probably the worst way to go, right,
I don't know. But Okay, So that's all well and

(01:02:20):
good for the person. But again, we're talking about seeing
a giant metal object. Where do we get the metal
ghost from? I mean, like not even just not even
just the ship, but.

Speaker 6 (01:02:34):
The human beings are the ones sealing the ship. So
if they never made it to port, and we're going
with the stone tape theory where things repeat themselves over
and over again, so because they never made it to port,
and because water and quartz are such great conductors of

(01:02:58):
paranormal activity, they just keep replaying it.

Speaker 5 (01:03:04):
Fair So do you think that this ghost ship, you know,
the crew seem to think that they were trying to
warn them off course and stuff, but it kind of
seems more like based on what you're saying is they're
just replaying this moment and they happen as a as
a replay.

Speaker 6 (01:03:22):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:03:22):
Now we also hear like you know, vehicles and and
car crashes and stuff like that, where people will be
driving down the highway and someone will swerve out in
this car you know, does and saves their life. Kind
of the same situation. But there you have a little
bit more of intent behind an interaction of lot, whereas

(01:03:43):
this this ghost ships just kind of repeating that that
we're at.

Speaker 6 (01:03:48):
It's I think it's a paranormal you know, it's it's
a tape being played, But I do think that the
human spirits that are attached to it have a consciousness
of what's happening, and they can choose when to interact

(01:04:12):
with the living. So it's kind of like if a
tree falls in the woods, does it make noise, Yes,
it makes noise. So any day of the week this

(01:04:33):
could be happening. But because there's not other ships around,
maybe it's not so apparent, or maybe it has to
be the right set of circumstances, like a storm that
would take down a ship, that would drive it close
to shore.

Speaker 5 (01:04:51):
Yeah, because if you know you're talking about a bad
set of circumstances where the ship was that close to
the shore anyway, So the average ship that's that wrote daily, nightly, yearly,
whatever have you, is not seen that because they're not
under the same situation, right of discipher.

Speaker 6 (01:05:08):
And we're talking about so now the you know, the
lake beds are so well mapped that they know where
each little pebble is, each little sandbar is not so
much in the even in the early eighteen hundreds, not
so much. I mean, there were there were deer like

(01:05:28):
sailor's tails of this land formation called the Pinnacle of
Doom in Lake Superior, that most people said were sailor's tails.
Well guess what, it's actually a shoal. And ships got
smashed on this thing because what would happen is, in
regular circumstances you would glide right over it, not even

(01:05:53):
though it was there. But in a storm where you
have valleys and way waves, you could be seiling across
from it, and suddenly the water drops from beneath you
and your whole the ship goes onto you know, this
point of rock.

Speaker 5 (01:06:14):
Mm hm oh yeah.

Speaker 6 (01:06:17):
So what was once thought a like sailor's tail, the
Pinnacle of Doom. No, it's actually a real underwater land
formation that has bitten quite a few ships in its time.

Speaker 5 (01:06:34):
M Well, we are, we are at our our mark,
and I have a lot more questions than I did
at the show.

Speaker 6 (01:06:42):
So see what you did, see what you did? Another
another you.

Speaker 5 (01:06:47):
Know, I'm just going to leave this hanging here for
another future day when we have time to kill and
stuff that. Uh, there's the whole Michigan Triangle too, isn't
there in the Great Lakes?

Speaker 6 (01:07:02):
Actually, each one of the Great Lakes has a Devil's triangle,
like Superior has two, Lake Erie is a quad angle,
and Lake Ontario has more of a square.

Speaker 5 (01:07:13):
So they're screwed. That's another whole thing. I mean, like,
I don't know, so we we could go into a
lot more of this. And then there's you know, there's
tons of lighthouses all along there.

Speaker 6 (01:07:30):
Yeah, there's there's bonded lighthouses. There's Devil's triangles. Uh, well
we're covering like monsters. There's hoodu ships there are like
there are like ship like not Rex, but catastrophes that

(01:07:55):
the Great Lakes have been known for it. There's pirates, pirates, Yeah,
hell yeah, we got virates.

Speaker 5 (01:08:06):
Yeah, I want to bring this up before when we
started filming this, I said, you know, I don't I
only know about the two ships, you know, so you're
gonna take this and she Tan goes, I'm the captain,
and I'm like, oh, exactly, all right, oh man, Yeah,

(01:08:27):
it's never never a dull moment. There's there's so much,
so many rabbit holes and stuff that you can go
down with this stuff. It's it's just fascinating to be
able to research and and you know, take all these things.
There's not enough time in any one person's life to
explore the depths because this is this is fascinating, you know.
Like one of the things I'm a I'm a cryptid guy.

(01:08:48):
I like the critters and stuff. But the more I
dig into the paranormal, what gets me is I'll do
an episode for CAPS. We'll go somewhere and investigate, and yeah,
the investigation was you know whatever, you know, we get
some some stuff happened, and blah blah blah. I've seen it,
I've done and I've been there, you know. But what

(01:09:09):
really gets me is I spend like days investigating the
history of something, Like we investigated the haunted Cicero Church
in Illinois. Okay, okay, so we investigated this haunted church,
but I spent a good, oh god, probably a whole
day researching. The reason why that church was so prominent

(01:09:35):
in that area was because it held the victims of
these two the ship that capsized right there in the harbor.

Speaker 6 (01:09:45):
And yep, that was fast. That would be the Eastland
and she holds the record for the highest body body
count of a fresh water ship disaster. Yep.

Speaker 5 (01:09:58):
So many people and so many whole families died on
that ship that this church, which originally was a funeral home,
made so much money that it could expand and became
this huge industry. Right, they're all off the money that
it made off that one disaster.

Speaker 6 (01:10:17):
Yeah, Yeah, over fifteen hundred people and there wasn't They
were not prepared for that massive casualties, I mean, and
the fact that, like you said, whole families were wiped out.
They were waiting up to a month afterwards for people

(01:10:38):
to come claim bodies because they had to put like
telegrams and messages in newspapers all around the country saying
if you had loved ones who worked for such and
such factory, these come to Chicago and identify the body,
you know, I mean, it was just it was horrible.

Speaker 5 (01:10:58):
It was a company outing. They charged three ships to
go across to this amusement park or something for the day.
And everyone was on the edge of the boat, you know,
waving goodbye, the entire you know, the husband, wife.

Speaker 6 (01:11:11):
So what happened was so everybody wanted on the Eastland
because she was the newer ship. And what happened was
everybody wanted an outside rail. So people boarding the ship
immediately ran across the other side railing. And what happens
when you have hundreds of people running across the ship.
And not to mention the Eastland. She was very narrow

(01:11:35):
but very tall. She was prone to capsizing, and the
captain and the owner knew that before the ship had
ever been like, you know, hired for that. And so
people are rushing across the deck and it's rocking back
and forth, and that's what made her capsized because the

(01:11:59):
engineered in the hold could not balance the tanks. And yeah,
she just she turned turtle, as they would say.

Speaker 5 (01:12:09):
Yeah, literally just flipped over right there at the dock
on its side. Yep, didn't wasn't even out in the water,
didn't even set sail yet, just gave up the ghost.

Speaker 2 (01:12:22):
Wow.

Speaker 6 (01:12:23):
Yeah, very cool.

Speaker 5 (01:12:25):
If you want more information on that too, go check
out Wisconsin Caps on YouTube and look at the Cicero Church,
the most Haunted Church in Illinois episode. The beginning of
that episode, we go into detail on this and there's
some more pictures and stuff because it's part of the
history of that building. So interesting, awesome, awesome. Well, I

(01:12:45):
thank you so much again for coming on this week.
For anybody. You have your ghost Ghosts, Cryptid Lake Monsters
and Stuff of Lake Michigan book as well available for
anybody that wants more stuff on the Great Lakes as well.
Tell everybody where they can find you and all your
stuff that you got going on.

Speaker 6 (01:13:04):
Okay, well come on away, so you can find us
on Amazon, uh, Chat Noir or type in Squatch GQ
magazine that will bring up all the magazines, books, cookbooks
and journals that I have available. And you can find
me on Facebook at chatane Noir. That's where I post

(01:13:26):
most of my activities with presentations and paricns and any
expeditions that I'm doing, and that is pretty much where
you can find me. I do have a website, but
I only update it like two times a year, and
that's just for libraries so that they, you know, can
see what I'm I'm presenting about or offering as topics.

Speaker 5 (01:13:50):
So yeah, awesome, Well, good timing when the little Goblin's
attack that we're we're wrapping up yourself.

Speaker 6 (01:14:00):
They want attention now.

Speaker 5 (01:14:01):
So awesome. Well, as always, it's been a pleasure talking
to you, and I look forward to our next wormhole
that we dive down and the next topic that you
make me research off. One more things.

Speaker 6 (01:14:15):
You know, I could have I could have really blown
your mind and sent you the presentation for the Cannibals
of Human Folklore, and you would have been like calling me,
like really really.

Speaker 5 (01:14:29):
We didn't even cover submarines either, because I know there's
some Sheboygan has like a haunted sub that you can
go in and stuff now, but yeah, there's a lot
of stuff. Who would have thought that there's submarines in
Lake Michigan there, Uh huh, oh, all right, well you
take care. I will talk to you, I'm sure very soon.

(01:14:51):
But it's always a pleasure having you on your wealth
and knowledge and a good friend, and I look forward
to the next time that our parents cross.

Speaker 6 (01:14:57):
So oh thank you okay, well.

Speaker 5 (01:15:07):
Thank you guys so much for coming along here today
and watching and listening to our show. I hope that
you enjoyed it as much as I did. I will
greatly miss she Tan, seeing her at conventions and all
over the United States with all the events that we
do together. So thank you all guys for tuning in
today and enjoying this with me and all of you guys.

(01:15:31):
So until next time, guys, take care, be well, and
remember we're all part of the paranormal spectrum. I'll see
you next time.

Speaker 3 (01:15:42):
You see it tonight something let's call it, O King
and Telly, please.

Speaker 6 (01:15:52):
That thing streets.

Speaker 3 (01:15:54):
I'm pages in the room and I can see it.

Speaker 2 (01:16:02):
Tam Ad Chine.

Speaker 3 (01:16:04):
I'm bringing under ras tame herdri Chine, if you can
the alloway Pama heard, Kay you don't some album by
means Pama ward Rich motanic h