August 6, 2025 • 64 mins
Flat Rockland (AKA Matt Aukland) is a good friend of Talking Weird and the Untold Radio Network. In this episode, he visits the show to chat about strange and anomalous encounters in his home state of Washington: from Sasquatch to UFOs, and more!
This is a fun and fast moving conversation that you do not want to miss!
This is a fun and fast moving conversation that you do not want to miss!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
The paranormal, UFOs, monsters, mysteries that you're listening to Talking
Weird and know from a Kevin deep in the northwards
your host, Doctor.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Dean Bertram, Greetings of my fellow widows and widows, Welcome
(00:45):
to Talking Weird on the Untold Radio Network. I'm your host,
Dean Bertram, and as always I'm grateful and honored that
you've decided to spend the next hour or so of
your life with me. Whether you're watching the show live
or it goes out on video and audio every Tuesday
night at nine pm Central, or maybe you're watching it
archived on those sides of YouTube and Facebook and x
(01:06):
or perhaps you're listening to it the following day or
after the follow day, because it always drops on the
next on the Wednesday after the Tuesday night on any
podcast platform out there. Anyway, Greetings, thank you for being here.
I hope you're gonna get weird with us, because it's
going to be a fun one tonight. I'm looking so
forward to. This is somebody I should have had on
a long time ago, because he's great. I've seen him
on the Flagship Show recently on the Untold Radio Show
(01:31):
at Doug Hichech show, the head of this network, and
I was say, Man, this guy's awesome. I need to
get him on. He's been a big supporter of the show,
a good friend for I don't know how many years
at the show now, certainly certainly sometime and usually I
would talk a little bit about what I've been up to,
but I think I'm going to talk to him about
it as well as to you, because I think we
can have a fun chat, and then we'll go into
(01:52):
all the weirdness of Washington State, from UFOs and Bigfoot
and strange hauntings perhaps and even the notorious Maury Island incident,
which is something I'm fascinated with. So I would like
you to if you were here, I get you to
give him a big round of applause. Maybe you can
do it in your living room or on your maybe
not in your car wherever else you are. Somebody many
(02:14):
of you might know from the chat who are engaged
in the chat, Flat Rockland, whose real name is Matt Auckland,
Greetings Flat Slash Matt, Hi, Madam Dean. So good to
have you on the show. I know a lot of
people in the chat are already excited because a lot
of people who were in the live chat every Tuesday night,
which is always a lot of fun, and other shows
on the Untold are aware of you are. Here's a
(02:37):
classic example. Now, this is Jay Katz or his wife
who do the Down South, a nominally show on the
Untold Radio network. He's super excited about it. Wow, what
an episode he or she is saying.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
All the asses are here tonight.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
As yeah, there's and there's all other kind of you know,
other people who were checking the time, him Kincaid, somebody
Lisa who's last name I don't know. Bob Antone, who's
a good friend of the show, lives in your part
of the world as well, took me around around Moury
Island when I was there last summer shooting my documentary.
Horace Smith another good friend of the show. Both Bob
and Horace have been guests on the show. Horace, of course,
(03:16):
is the professor emeris of Astronomy and Physics at Michigan
State University. So there's all kinds of buzz in the
chat already. So we are going to have to live
up to these expectations, ah, which I'm sure we go to.
There's there's too many comments that just can't keep showing
them all, but I'm going to keep an eye on
the comments. If you have any questions for a for
(03:37):
Flat as you might know him or Matt, please just
jump in and I will try to keep my eye
on questions in the chat. If maybe if you have
a question, if you quit it all in cap then
I can see it easier. That might make my life
a little bit easier tonight, because the chat's already super practice.
So man, what have you been up to lately?
Speaker 4 (03:58):
How much.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
I need to get up to the mountains and give
you some more experiences, but had time.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
We'll get in this experience. I know you were fishing recently,
which looks super cool.
Speaker 4 (04:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
Yeah, recently went up to Vancouver Island and did a
week of fishing up there. And I think last time
I talked to you, I was actually in Port Towns
and fishing for a few days with my uncle, same
guy fished in Vancouver Island with so didn't catch any fish,
but we got a bunch of crab and I got
(04:32):
to feed some of my cousins that came up from
Arizona last this week last week, and they're actually in
chat right now.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
I think.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
I think you mentioned some of your family and cousins,
your family. You said we were dropping in because we'll
get to it, because Mario Island were one of my
favorite subjects in the entire area of the we and
we'll get there because I know I understand some of
your family leaving Morio Island. But no before the show, I,
as I mentioned, I talk a little bit usually about
what I've been up to with the documentary. But you've
(05:04):
been so supportive of the documentary always, You're always like
liking my posts and like, I can't wait. Yeah, Well,
I thought maybe I could talk about it just a
little bit with you and then we'll move on to
your stuff. Doesn't I don't want to leave you hanging
in the green room. Well, I took about so most
people who watch the show, you as well, obviously know
that I've been making this documentary called The Man Who
Invented Flax Sources for almost three years now, two and
(05:26):
a half years. I have a short extract of it
called The Shave of Mystery, which has played a couple
dozen festivals around the world, and it's still playing. But
this weekend, or the actually four days, I was in
New York City, Upper State, New York and Cambridge, Massachusetts,
and Boston shooting interviews. I hope it's my last trip
about East. It's my second trip out East. I'm from Wisconsin.
(05:47):
And some of the people I got to speak to,
I shouldn't say some. All of the people I got
to speak to this long again, long weekend were absolutely phenomenal,
and I thought I'd give a shut out to them
and people who are interested in the Shaver mystery or
Ray Palmer and Richard Shaver. And if you don't know
what that is, I said, would points you at a
(06:08):
website called shavertron dot com or any of the books
by the person who who runs that side. He used
to run a newsletter for many years, or a fans
in called shaver Tron. He's written an incredible autobiography or autobiography,
a biography of Richard Shave and Ray Palmer called war
Oval Muria. He's written a companion piece called Shavirology, multiple
(06:30):
other books. He's got several books on the topic. But
through him Richard Toronto, who is a producer on the film,
I was able to meet a number of fairly spectacular individuals. Oh,
that's another photo of me and Brian, Actually I need classes.
That's not the one that's at Ray Palmer's grave, but
that's not what we're talking about tonight. There is Brian
Emrick on the left, who is the world's largest collector
(06:53):
of Richard Shaver ephemera and artwork. He owns an incredible
amount of it. On his right is who we interviewed
this weekend. His friend. This is in New York City
where they were strolling along and I was filming them
before we did the interview. That is Norman Brosterman, who
was an art dealer who sold most of the known
Shaver artwork on the planet, which he acquired from somebody
(07:16):
called Jim Pops to who'd taken who'd been able to
acquire the Shave art work after Shaver's death from the
Shaver Shack in Summon, Arkansas, where I've also been. So
if it wasn't for these two men, we might not
have a lot of it. Brian bought most of the
artwork that Norman Brostoman sold. We interviewed Norman Brostman this
weekend again. Richard Toronto and Brian Emrick are both producers,
(07:39):
my producers on the film, and they're probably two of
the most knowledgeable people in the Shaver space. And Norman
Brostoman had his own incredible tale to tell about running,
you know, getting Shave artwork and outside art outside artists books,
contributing to various galleries throughout throughout the time, selling the artwork,
acquiring the artwork. So anyway, who's interested in Shaver Broston
(08:02):
is quite phenomenal. Here I am with Charles Lear, who
has been on Talking Weird before. He wrote a book
on early UFO researchers, some wonderful stuff on Richard Shaver
and Ray Palmer. When I found out about his book
and I knew I was going to New York, I
really wanted to interview him, and I did. There we
are on the streets of Manhattan talking and we interviewed
(08:23):
him in a more controlled space. Obviously as well, because
Manhattan is super loud, people might be able to see
the smoke coming out of out of the sewer system
whatever it is, the heating events system. She's always seen
films there. I'm very grateful to my girlfriend Samantha, who
took the footage that that's from a lot of these
actually screen grabs from stuff that is in the film.
(08:47):
One of the most important people in the realm of Shaverrism,
I suppose is the man in the middle here between
Brian Emrick on the left and myself. For you all
know I'm on the right. That man is Doug. He
now runs John Keel dot com. He was very good
friends with John Keel. He's the person who took care
of John Keel when John Keel got older in life,
(09:09):
and was actually at John Kill's bedside when he passed.
He pretty much is perhaps the most important person in
preserving much of what we have of John Keeley. If
you visit John kill dot com, you can read all
types of ephemera which we never would have had if
it wasn't for Doug. I met Doug at Fort Fest
(09:31):
in Maryland in nineteen ninety nine, and I'm glad I
was able to reconnect with him for the movie. For
a couple of reasons. A John Keele is the man
who coined the term the man who invented flying saws.
As John Keeley, the Mothman prophecies suggested that it was
Raymond Palmer who pretty much is responsible for the flying
sauce ufo law that we have today. And that's a
(09:51):
bigger topic that we can get into right now, Doug Skinner,
as he's holding there in his hand is an issue
of Fate magazine from two thousand and four which has
Richard Shaver on the cover of that magazine, and the
article inside that magazine is titled What's this Shaver Revival?
And as Doug Skinner says in the film, he was
(10:12):
very happy to have been able to get Richard Shaver
on the cover of Fate magazine for the first time
and something like, well, the first time ever, because Ray
Palmer founded Fate Magazine and even under Ray Palmer, Richard
Shaver was never on the cover. There was a piece
ran in the early days of Fate about Richard Shaver
about the Shaver mystery, and readers were so antagonistic that
(10:35):
Palmer and nobody else ever ran a serious piece on
Shaver in that again. Doug Skinner also wrote introductions to
well in an introduction to one of Richard Toronto's wonderful
books on Richard Shaver's artwork, and frequently, well as frequently
as anybody can because those many opportunities, but has several
times lectured and presented on Richard Shaver at various art
(10:57):
gallery shows and he was recently in Lilydale. In fact,
he's been lily Dale a number of times, but the
Spiritualist convention in Upstate New York talking about Richard Shaver
there as well. Man have one more image, So that's
we've seen the first three people that we interviewed, that
being Norman Brostermann, Charles Lee, and Doug Skinner. And these
are the last two. The two men on the right here,
(11:18):
the man in the blue shirt is David Ridder. Slightly
behind him is Daniel Ridder. They own this incredible archive
of Palmer material and just pulp material in general and
early fandom material in general, including I'm not sure if
that's what he's holding now, but an original manuscripts and
(11:40):
a copy of the in fact, Ray Palmer's copy of Cosmos,
which kind of in many ways set tone for all
of the science fiction which followed, because Ray Palmer wasn't
just the man who invented flaning sauces. He's the man
who almost shaped modern science fiction. And they have a
wonderful website and a number of books on what they call, well,
(12:01):
they call it the first fandom experience, but they have
a book on Palmer's They have a number of books
that concentrate on Palmer and they're all absolutely wonderful. And
you can see Brian Emrick, my producer, in the background
there and I'm there obviously filming and the far left
and again it was my wonderful girlfriend Samantha who took
that footage, which is also going to be in the film. Anyway,
(12:23):
this isn't about me, but I wanted to do this
while you were here, Matt, instead of doing it while
you were sitting in the green room waiting. So that's
what I got through this weekend.
Speaker 4 (12:33):
That's awesome.
Speaker 3 (12:34):
I can't wait to see that. When's the ETA?
Speaker 2 (12:38):
Well, I think, I think? No, Well, I'm very close now.
I've been like I said, I've been shooting for two
and a half years. I plan to finish all of
the actual filming this summer into the early four and
it will be shot out. I've edited already about eighty
five minutes, which will be honed down. Obviously, the five
different people are interviewed this weekend will have to be
(13:00):
introduced considerably into that cut. And I don't want a
two hour movie. I only want a movie that's going
to be ninety two one hundred minutes. So it's going
to have to be honed down. There's a few more
interviews I have to shoot this summer, and then I
get so busy with the festivals I run from October
through through March that I will probably not have it
edited until sometime next year. So I hope it'll be
(13:22):
out in the festival circuit, or at least submitted to
the festival circuit by middish next year. That's my plan.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
Hey, I have a question for you. Is Charles Lear
related to John Lear?
Speaker 2 (13:33):
You know what? I actually asked him that, and I
think he said there might be some family connection there,
but it's not like, you know, he was the grandson
or something of John Ley, which would be fantastic because
he wrote that stuff as well. He has a I
should remember the titles, I'm sure if somebody goes on Amazon.
So he has a couple of books on your fology.
One of the books is the book which was most
relevant to my film because it looks at the early researchers.
(13:55):
But he has another book which looks more at the
type of stuff that John Lee and Bobblers are and
Richard Dodie and William Moore and those type of people.
Were front and center in forming the mythology around in
that kind of late seventies through you know, through the
eighties into the early nineties. I guess X Files uphology
(14:16):
is I always call it, or the dark Side hypothesis,
as Jerome Clark calls it, or when we think of
those deep conspiracy kind of plots you see on the
X Files. So yeah, maybe maybe he is. That's a
great iron. Well he is, I think more distantly, but
Charles Ley is related to one of the key progenitors
of that mythology.
Speaker 3 (14:36):
That's awesome. Well, can't wait, man, I'm looking forward to it.
That you don't do any festivals out here, so I'm
gonna have to fly over to Wisconsin.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
And well, you know, but you missed, you missed the
Shaven Mystery when it's screen in your backyard of the
chiare was flying source of film festival last year?
Speaker 4 (14:55):
Where was that in Chills?
Speaker 3 (14:57):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Yes, yeah, they do a big celebration every year there
and there's a there's a there, there's a it's it's
a film festival, as was a celebration of Fnald Siding.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
And well, speaking of Shlis, I think that's about where
that plane crash that had the slag on it from
the Moury Island incident. It was headed south and it
crashed just south of Shelas.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
Maybe that's a great segue into connection with Moury Island.
Speaker 3 (15:28):
Yeah, yeah, So I know Dean loves the whole Moury
Island incident.
Speaker 4 (15:34):
UFO deal, and we Dean.
Speaker 3 (15:40):
I've kind of thrown it out there in episodes like, Hey,
I'm on Moury right now and I'm looking over the sound.
But my my mom grew up on Moury Island and
my folks actually live in the house that she grew
up and now, and so I get to go out
there all the time and walk out to the bluff
(16:01):
overlooking where that the whole incident happened, which is kind
of cool. Well, I was thinking of you, Dean.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
If we knew each other better when I was there
last year, we definitely would have hung out. I was
there for I wasn't there for the Chills Flying Soaurcer
Festival that was a little later. I think I was
there for.
Speaker 4 (16:21):
Anniversary.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
Well, I was there for the Men in Black, the
Men in Black Birthday bash because I wanted to be
there for the for the Moury Island anniversary and the
appearance of the Men in Black. So I was with
Bob Anto Beach on the day that the Moury Island
incident happened on the Moury Island beach, and then the
following day I think it is is when Harold Dahle
(16:43):
had the first encounter with the first ever Man in
Black and I was at the Men in Black birthday
bash and I interviewed Steve Edmondson, who's the head of
that festival, who's a wonderful historian as well as well
for that. But when you were when you were in
that area, do you think people are still cognizant of
significance of Morio. I'm like just your average person. I'm
not talking about UFO nuts like me.
Speaker 3 (17:04):
But no, not really. I mean there's there's people on
the island that know about it, and most people have
no idea what you're talking about.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
Unfortunately, that's crazy.
Speaker 3 (17:18):
I know, I know most people here probably have no
idea what we're talking about that are visiting today. Happened
in nineteen forty seven, right was it a couple of
weeks before Kennetharnald's siding. But was it before Roswell a
little bit before Roswell happened.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
Yeah, I mean supposedly the Morio Island incident I believe
takes place on June twenty first, which is three days
before Kenneth Donald sees the three days courses above Morio,
above above Mount Ranier or nie Mount Ranier. And I
think that's something which I never realized was actually there.
(18:00):
I knew they were in Washington, but Mori Island kind
of looms over I mean, sorry, Mount Rainier, which is
the mountain most associated with Kenneth Arnald's initial siding of
the sources, because that's where he saw them travel in
front of, I think.
Speaker 3 (18:16):
Or near.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
It really looms over Morey Island, like it's just you know,
when you when you're on Moury Island looking back towards
the Seattle Tacoma kind of area, Des Moines kind of area,
it's right there. Like you can't mistake the closeness of
both the Moory Island incident and Kenneth Arnald's siding, which,
if the Moylan incident did happen in on June twenty one,
(18:40):
Kenneth Donald's siding happened June twenty four. And you're right,
about it being before Roswell, because Roswell was around July fourth,
so it's you know, it's still another ten days out
or more.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
I didn't know it was only three days apart from
Kenneth Arnold's that's cool. I thought it was a couple
of weeks.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
No, it's it's literally just before just supposedly interesting. Okay,
the people they still see things. I mean, you would
know maybe you can talk a little bit about your
family background there or your family engagement with the area.
Speaker 3 (19:11):
You know, I don't hear of a lot of UFO sidings.
If you're looking south towards the mountain from Morey, you'll
see Tacoma, And I'm kind of right there, a few
miles down in Tacoma. But we have so much light pollution.
It's it's it's hard to see anything in the sky.
(19:32):
You don't see stars. I mean, you see stars, but
it's not like being out in the woods or Wisconsin
or Wyoming or something like that. So yeah, not really. Unfortunately,
you need to get out of town a little further
where I can see the sky.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
I know you've had other experiences you'll talk about, but
I'm not sure if you've had a UFO experience have
you had Have you had anything approx. I've had a.
Speaker 3 (20:01):
Couple couple interesting things happened in the woods. I'd say
my favorite UFO experience, which actually ties in somewhat to Bigfoot,
I was I was camping. This is years ago. I
was camping at some lakes out in the green Water
(20:22):
and I heard I don't know what to make of this.
It was two in the morning, and I mentioned this
on Doug Show last time I was on that. He asked,
what's the weirdest thing you've ever heard out in the woods?
Speaker 2 (20:35):
And I thought about it.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
I was like, you know, it was about two in
the morning. I happened to be awake in my tent
and I heard what sounded like like a file when
they're putting in the the pilings for freeways, like those
big machines, just chick chean chee chean. And I'm ten
(20:58):
miles at least away from any road. At first, I thought, Oh,
they're doing construction on the freeway, and I thought about,
there's no freeway close to here, and it was just
this rhythmic metallic sound. Happened seven times in the next minute.
I think it was five next minute happened again seven,
(21:19):
then next minute eleven, next minute four, and it stopped.
But it started at two o'clock. I looked at my watch.
I was like, that's bizarre. I have no idea what
to make that. Someone's digging a well at two in
the morning. I who knows.
Speaker 4 (21:34):
So that was.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
That was July of twenty twenty one. And every year
I go lobster diving in southern California off out of Ventura.
Speaker 4 (21:48):
We go on a.
Speaker 3 (21:48):
Boat for three days and we dive for lobsters, about
eighteen dives and you're out. Shoot, You're out sixty miles
to these little islands, the Channel Islands. We try and
go to Santa Barbara, which is really small, and Santa Cruz,
Santa Rosa.
Speaker 4 (22:08):
So I'm out there. I'm talking to this kid.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
Kid, he's my age, shout out Zach, and you know,
I always try to bring up, hey, man, you ever
see Bigfoot or UFOs? I was throwing that out there
is to see what the response is, and he goes, yeah,
you know, I was. Me and my dad are at
this lake a couple of years ago and we're you know,
(22:31):
we're hunkered down for the night and we just hear
this god awful scream out across the lake.
Speaker 4 (22:37):
And it's not a big lake.
Speaker 3 (22:38):
You could throw a rock across it easy. He's like,
it was the craziest scream. We were so scared and
I had to be Bigfoot. And I turns out he
said it was the name of this lake is Lost Lake.
Granted there's probably six or seven lost lakes in Washington
(22:59):
State alone, but we figured out it was the same
damn lake. I just just was camping out three months
earlier and heard that crazy those crazy sounds, so.
Speaker 4 (23:12):
That was weird.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
That was a weird coincidence. So that night we're on
the boat actually hold on that day, I asked one
of the deckhands, hey man, you ever see any UFOs
I hear because you're you're just north of Catalina Island
where people see those or the tic tac UFOs have
been reported by the Navy, and lots of UFO sidings
(23:35):
down there. It's it's a big military area, tons of
UFO siding. So I said, hey man, you never see anything,
And the kids said, I haven't, But I was on
the boat with one of my captains saw one night
he was on a little boat. This is a sidetrack.
Sorry forgetting off track, but he's just on his little
(23:57):
fishing vessel, you know, going to bed for the night,
and an orb comes up. It sounded like a big orb,
like a beach ball, just circling his boat, and it
freaked him out. So a couple hours later, it gets
dark and I'm hanging out with Zach and we're just
having a beer on the front of the boat and
I see off in the distance it looked like a
(24:20):
shooting star, bright shooting star, but it kept going at
like a forty five degree angle, and it was enough
time to where I'm like.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
Zack, Zach, look check it out.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
He goes, oh, oh, crazy, And then it went from
a forty five to a flatline, just just instantly, and
could have been a jet maybe, but it just the
way it just quickly went going towards inland. It was
super bizarre, and it just happened to coincide with me
(24:52):
asking the guy pr seeing UFO, So UFO, I just
tied in a UFO story, Bigfoot, try that one.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
You did a good job, man. Do you think that
is just something? Because I suspect you have I don't
know if you look at the phenomenon exactly the same
as I do. But I suspect by some of your
comments that you're sympathetic to the idea that things might
be related. Do you suspect, Yeah, maybe you talk a
little bit about that. Do you suspect there's some correlation
(25:23):
or relationship between Bigfoot sightings and UFO sidings?
Speaker 4 (25:29):
Definitely?
Speaker 2 (25:29):
I I do.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
I do. And it's funny in the bigfoot community, there's
you know, there's the flesh and blood folk, and then
there's the folks that think, oh man, Bigfoot's an alien.
You know, I'm I'm somewhere in the middle, and like
you Dean, like I think it's like John Keel believe
it is all kind of all the same, ultra terrestrial
(25:54):
who knows it's kind of all just barely beyond that veil.
That veils really thin, and I don't think sometimes we
can see where that line is, and I think it
blends in physical to metaphysical really easily. Like, for instance,
(26:16):
you could see a bigfoot, you could you could find
some bigfoot scat, you could find footprints, but like sometimes
those footprints end in the middle of a field, and
it's like where did it go? Or you hear stories
of bigfoot walking into a tree, or lots of stories
of you know, the cloaking like it looked like the
(26:38):
predator and you could see it shimmering and then it
just kind of disappeared. It's like, I don't know what
to make of that. I've never seen a bigfoot, so
I don't know. I can't say that it's real or not.
But I know that thousands of people have seen something
and they've seen a lot of weird crap, and you
(27:02):
can't toss that out. You can't toss the baby out
with the bath wad.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
So I mean, I don't know exactly what to make
it either. But there's all these kind of associated aspects
of experiencing the bigfoot phenomenon. So either when people don't
see bigfoot, a stone is thrown it in the wood
so they hear a sound which is a whoop, or
(27:27):
they see a weird tree structure. I mean, there's hundreds
of these things. So there's often people who've had bigfoot
experiences or believe they've had Bigfoot experiences. And for those
of you listening, I'm doing kind of parents around bigfoot.
Speaker 4 (27:40):
That's where I'm at.
Speaker 3 (27:41):
I don't know what it was all these weird noises
and experiences. I can't say as bigfoot, it was something weird.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
I'm anomalous in the woods. I mean, I don't doubt that,
and I don't doubt people even see foot. I'm just
not sure that it's a hairy hormone is murtoring around.
Speaker 3 (28:06):
Yeah, it's I almost think it. It could be an
avatar sometimes, you know, just whatever they want you to
see or whatever your mind perceives it to be. You know,
some people see I mean, people see little people around
here a lot, and that freaks me out. I don't
(28:27):
need any of that when I'm out hiking.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
Can you tell me any of the stories, you know,
because I'm fascinated with the with the fair folk, and you.
Speaker 3 (28:34):
Know I am too, and I am too dean, and
I almost think a lot of it, it, you know,
has to do with almost like spirits or elementals of
some sort, and it's it's kind of all tied together,
like you said. But I don't have any experience with
little people, but very close to here, i'd say around
(28:58):
Mount Saint Helens, between Mount Siye Helens Mount Adams, I've
heard a few stories just another podcast where they see it.
Speaker 4 (29:08):
One lady saw one at night and like.
Speaker 3 (29:10):
A head lights just real quick in the corner, and
she told her hosts like, hey, I just saw this
little guy and he the host got really serious and
he's like, Okay, don't say anything. Don't repeat its name,
because they will follow you home and basically mess your
life up, like you know, like trickster style, and it
(29:34):
will suck for you. Just you know, you hear people
saying don't repeat you know, skin walker or wind to Go,
but I've never heard of like don't don't repeat the
little people. I was like, okay, great, now I have
to worry about that I.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
Don't know.
Speaker 3 (29:53):
And also the same area, I heard a story that
a lake I go to with some friends near Packwood.
The guy was hiking with his buddy and he saw
like two three foot little gnome like not elves, but
like like troll looking fellas walking up on the hill
(30:14):
just like a mile away from the lake. And I'm thinking, great, man,
because I go out a long dean all the time
and I I, you know, I have a I carry
a forty five on a chess rag where I can
easily grab it. But but yeah, I don't know if
that's going to help me in a lot of these situations.
But it's just peace of mind.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
So it might help you with the fairfolk, but it'll
help you with maybe a bear or well that's yeah,
or or some crazy you know human out there, like
I think to go. I think people who go into
the woods not being armed, Yeah, taking chances. Even when
I go to my back forty here, there's bear around here,
there's kaya, there's there's a bobcat in my daughter's treehouse
(30:57):
the other day, you know what I mean. So I'm
always even my back forty, I'm always on.
Speaker 3 (31:02):
You have forty acres at your property.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
Yeah, it's very it's very standard in Yeah. Yeah, but
that anyway, My point is says this, and I'm not
I'm not out like and you know the Pacific Northwest
with you know this kind of incredible range of land
where Lord knows what is. But even here there's all
kinds of kinds of weird scary.
Speaker 3 (31:25):
Well, yeah, it's mostly for for people that are out
of line. You know, we have cougars and we have
black Bear. They released I think ten grizzlies into the
North Cascades this year.
Speaker 4 (31:40):
Thanks guys. I mean, I love and then wolves too.
Speaker 3 (31:44):
But I don't know if that's going to stop a grizzly.
And I'm not worried about really any of that. It's
it's mostly people's people that are out of line.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
No, I agree, but I mean, at least it will
stop it could it'll stop a wolf. I mean it
would be better risally than nothing. Yeah, I mean that
we have bar, we have beer here as well, Like
there was a bit. I haven't seen it, but people
have seen bear crossing my road here. There's wolves here.
There's a wolf predation here. Like if you go to
the DNR side or whatever he's heid and you track
wolf predation, there's wolf predation in my area, like really yeah, yeah,
(32:19):
so it's crazy. But but you know what I thought,
because I mean, I know you from engaging with you
in the chatsamon you've been. I always love to see
you there and I love to see you on the
other network shows as well. But what got you into
your interest in this stuff initially?
Speaker 3 (32:35):
You know, Doug asked me that, and I have I
don't have an answer for that.
Speaker 4 (32:39):
I just maybe boredom, just I'm just curious.
Speaker 3 (32:50):
Hang on, I last ye, Okay.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
I'm still here I think maybe they just was that
can happen, we can bump a window or something.
Speaker 3 (32:57):
I was blessed in the fact that my parents took
me camping. I grew up in southern California in Riverside,
and my mom and dad took us down by the
sand was seen to mountains to shoot what was it
called Idle Wild area and areas which I've since learned
(33:21):
have had lots of Bigfoot reports. But when you're a kid,
you're just like, I don't whatever. So I just always
liked kind of a introvert loaner, So going out in
the woods and reading a book was always nice.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
Man.
Speaker 4 (33:39):
And I love to fish.
Speaker 3 (33:40):
I love to forage for mushrooms, so it all ties
into being in the woods. And yeah, and then things
happen when you're out there, which is awesome.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
Well, speaking speaking of foraging, there is a long history
of people who are buried picking or looking for mushrooms
or gathering in the woods, yep, countering all kinds of things.
Speaker 3 (34:07):
Yeah, and I go out huckleberry picking near Mount Saint
Helen's and every year, actually the end of August, so
it's coming up in three weeks. Me and my buddy
and his girlfriend go out for three nights and it's
(34:27):
a stone's throw from Ape Canyon, and I've heard some
weird stuff out there. Sticks breaking around the campfire fifteen
feet away, and you shine your flashlight and there's nothing there.
Speaker 4 (34:41):
I actually bought a little.
Speaker 3 (34:43):
Thermal camera because of that incident a couple of years ago.
Brought it out last year and I lost it so
so much for that.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
Before you got to see anything weird on it.
Speaker 4 (34:55):
Yeah, and didn' see anything weird.
Speaker 3 (34:57):
But I've got a couple of weird howls.
Speaker 4 (34:59):
On audio.
Speaker 3 (35:01):
There's a fellow named Dave Ellis that lives in Washington
that's reviews audio for Big but he has over thirty
thousand just crazy anomalous noises.
Speaker 4 (35:14):
Yeah, it's it's.
Speaker 3 (35:15):
Great, and I'm.
Speaker 4 (35:18):
Sure a lot of it.
Speaker 3 (35:19):
I know he's going to be in Legend Meines Science too,
which Doug high Check is going to put out probably
the end of this year. Actually he sent me this
this poster.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
Oh that's cool.
Speaker 3 (35:31):
Yeah, you said you saw this poster because Alex Petticov
was listed on it. But sorry about the reflection, guys. Anyway,
he sent me that I won some trivia a couple
of weeks ago, and I just got that frame.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
So I'm looking I was one of them. Was it
on a kickstart or egog whatever? There it was Kickstarter,
I think when they had the campaign to raise money
for the film. I jumped on that campaign.
Speaker 4 (35:54):
So nice.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
I'm looking really forward to that film.
Speaker 3 (35:57):
Me too, Me too.
Speaker 4 (35:59):
But you know, so I think about that Perry Picking.
Speaker 3 (36:04):
Disappearing, you know, David Play's furrowing one, because you know,
you hear about the Fay tradition of people disappearing berry
picky or and I go mushroom picking twice a year
at least, and so that's I was in the back
of my mind.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
If you ever look at the Albert Rossali's Humanoid Encounter books,
He's done so many volumes now where all it does
is just list like he's got historical books from I
don't know what it is, like the nineteenth century up
until the present, and you actually read through them, I'd lie.
So I had read all of them, because there's I
don't know, a dozen plus volumes, but I've read a
bunch of them. The amount of people who have encounters
(36:42):
with all kinds of weird stuff when they're foraging, berry
picking it's there's a pattern, And I think I think
that's why it's important to be cognizant of patterns beyond
just the little the little window of anomalous phenomenon that
somebody might be interested in, like if you look at
it across, if you just look at Okay, what have
(37:03):
people encountered? Which is weird berry picking? Like? Not if
you are only interested in sasquatch, maybe go oh. This
guy said he saw like a devil and this person
had an encounter with weird little men who got to
have a spaceship. And this person met some you know
I think, which was essentially a fairy. And this person
saw something like a big foot. You know, this person's vanished.
When you see those patterns, I think that's the signal
(37:24):
in the noise of anomalous phenomen What is that?
Speaker 3 (37:27):
What is that? So I have a quick story. I
heard this on another I don't know if it was
a I don't know if it was West Germer show
or someone, but they were It was right by where
I go mushroom picking out in Carbonado, Washington, which is
(37:48):
an old little it's right on the edge of mount
right near it's pretty much the bridge just gave out
last year and people way around that's old like a
ghost town down below the bridge you can hike to.
I think it's three miles. There's not much there, but
(38:10):
it's like kind of an old mining ghost town. And
this guy is just doing a little day hike and
he's a couple of miles in and he sees blood
on the trail and he's like, oh crap, what's that
And he kind of steps back and this thing comes
out of the bushes. It on a four leg, like
all fours, but it had a human face. It's almost
(38:33):
like it sounded like, I don't know if you know
what a rake is or a crawler. They call those white,
skinny weird things. Sure they can't have blood. Yeah, And
he was like, oh, ran away, And I'm thinking, okay,
that's more. I go mushroom picking every every fall. So
(38:59):
again I put that out in my back pocket and going,
now I have to worry about these these little people.
Like so, you know, people hear these stories and they go, ah,
that's a bunch of crap. You know, these people are
making it up. But why would he come on the
show and just make that up? Like what And even
if people make it up. All of these people are
(39:22):
making it up. So if one out of a hundreds
true stuff's real, that's I don't know.
Speaker 4 (39:32):
Man.
Speaker 3 (39:34):
There's stuff out there that we don't we don't know about.
And the more you know, you know that rainbow, the
more you.
Speaker 2 (39:42):
Know, Yeah, the more you know, the more paranoid press
should become. We had an interesting question from Horace Smith again,
who's a good friend of the show and professor emeritus
of Astronomy and Physics at Michigan State University. He asks,
as a kid, did read books about mysterious things?
Speaker 3 (40:03):
Not really. I don't think I read a lot as
a kid, tell you truth. I try to read a
lot now, But yeah, Horace, I don't. I can't. I
can't say.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
Was there a documentary you might have seen, or was
there something that was loaded with, you know, strangeness that.
Speaker 1 (40:24):
No.
Speaker 3 (40:25):
I love to unsolved mysteries. You know that theme song
still freaks me out with Robert Cross I think his
name was.
Speaker 4 (40:36):
Yeah. So I grew up around that time I was.
Speaker 3 (40:41):
I was born in seventy seven, so it was after
the Leonard Nimoy Show.
Speaker 2 (40:47):
In Seeing Search show. When I was a kid, my
dad would watch on I think Saturday or Sunday afternoons.
I would watch it with him so that the proch
I wore the and to be honest in search is
still probably the greatest paranormal show of all time, regardless
of what's real or what's not real, just the way
it's shot on thirty five millimeter film, the good score
(41:10):
of it, lending Nimoi is incredibly you know, powerful voice,
the way it looked, you know that the whole the
whole production quality and the weirdness of that show. Only
recently because I mean they were available on YouTube, I think,
but I only recently dropped the money to buy that
and it wasn't very expensive anywhere the full set of
dv did. To start watching again, my daughter loves nice.
(41:32):
It's mesmerizing, Like when you watch it, it takes you to
a different place, Like it's almost like you know, your
brain waves changed to a different state.
Speaker 3 (41:41):
I've only watched a couple episodes. I need to binge
something stranger Man.
Speaker 2 (41:46):
You love it, And like I said, I think it's
all on YouTube, but it's worth it's you know, it's
slightly the quality of you get the DVDs and then
not get a second hand copy on eBay or something.
It doesn't cost very much and if you just start binging,
you'll be like, this was crazy stuff. The seventies really
did have this, you know, and into the eighties it went,
but there was this weird and you say, you would
(42:08):
have got it too if you were born seventy seven
and go in the eighties, there was this There was
this weird esoteric renaissance with everything from you know, sticks
and David Bowie and you know, carp and the songs
to things like oh yeah, and it was a different time.
Speaker 3 (42:25):
It started with led Zeppelin, right kind of and Lord
of the Rings references. Yeah, yeah, no, I go back
and there's a lot of like bigfoot documentaries on YouTube
from the seventies and it's totally it's cheesy as hell
but nostalgic and I freaking love it. It's it's fun.
Speaker 1 (42:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (42:50):
They all thought, oh, well, we'll find evidence of bigfoot soon.
It'll be a year or two, we'll have it. We'll
have them bagged and science will know everything. But what
do we got nothing? And Dean you always say, I
don't think we're gonna find crap.
Speaker 2 (43:10):
And how long has it been since we've been trying.
Speaker 3 (43:13):
To well since the forties. I mean, we got footprints,
we got hair that's anomaloust some some poop, turds and tracks,
but what else. It's like, That's why I started thinking, like, Okay,
we all start off as like flesh and blood. Relic commented,
(43:37):
there it's an ape in the woods.
Speaker 4 (43:40):
Okay, well, why don't we have proof.
Speaker 3 (43:44):
Maybe we have and it's been covered up. I don't know.
But there's so many sightings. There's so much, you know,
so much stuff that people experience, whether it's big for
it or not, and we don't have like any anything.
Speaker 4 (44:04):
So that makes me wonder.
Speaker 3 (44:06):
Like, Okay, this thing whatever phenomenon, it's maybe it's multiple stuff.
It comes and goes, I think, into our reality and out.
I don't know. I don't know how that works. But
that's why I'm curious. I want to know. I don't
know how this works.
Speaker 2 (44:26):
No, I think those of us who are paying attention
all want to I want to know how it works.
We have some questions for you, which I should throw
to you. This is from Luke Duke. Hi, guys, hey, flat,
have you ever smelled a big football foraging?
Speaker 3 (44:40):
No, Luke, I think it was you in the forest.
That's my buddy Luke and my cousin's husband in Arizona.
He forges too, But I don't think I've ever.
Speaker 4 (44:51):
Smelled anything anomalous now.
Speaker 3 (44:56):
Just myself.
Speaker 2 (45:00):
Sorry, we have a question from varicks way. Did Flett
record the sounds that he captured?
Speaker 3 (45:08):
Oh, shoot, Vreck's the only sounds I caught were really
close to Ape Canyon, the Holy Ape Canyon incident by
Mount Saint Helen. So where I go huckleberry picking, it's
kind of all around that area. And shoot, that was
last that might have been last year, almost a year ago.
(45:32):
But so I was out there picking seven o'clock at night.
You know, it gets dark at nine still, so it
was light out and I heard like it sounded like
a scream, like a woman's scream, and I'm like, I
didn't have my recorder on. So the next day I
(45:53):
everyone was at camp and they didn't feel like picking
that late, and so I went out a mile out
and I had a recorder going, and I heard it
was almost the same sound around the same time, and
I hear I listened to it with my headphones on
because it's really faint and it sounds I don't know,
(46:19):
I'll have to play it for you. It's it's really faint.
I'm going to send it to Day some time and
have them put it through his spectramonomager or whatever. He
can actually visualize it instead of just listening to it.
That's really all I've got on audio. So I told
you that story on Doug's where I heard I was
(46:42):
trying to cut off some friends and hit the trail
ahead of them before they got there, and I got.
Speaker 4 (46:49):
A Okay, that's not a bird. I know my birds.
Speaker 3 (46:57):
After that, I decided to get a go pro and
I task him audio recorder, and so whenever I'm out
alone or not even alone, I have my GoPro run
into all times, just in case something runs across or
something something happens, but at least I'll have the audio.
(47:18):
It was bizarre, sounds like a damn monkey.
Speaker 4 (47:21):
Well, yeah, people have heard that.
Speaker 3 (47:27):
And Doug actually said he's got between him and Dave Ellis,
they have thirty thousand whoops and he's he's like, give
me an animal that makes that sound. Can't do it?
Maybe an owl, but it's.
Speaker 4 (47:47):
Not an owl.
Speaker 3 (47:50):
Because maybe but not the perfect who.
Speaker 4 (47:57):
Yeah, I don't.
Speaker 2 (47:59):
Know a drunk who likes finding Bigfoot.
Speaker 3 (48:03):
There you go.
Speaker 2 (48:04):
Just do you think there's something out there? I do.
Speaker 3 (48:08):
Just yeah, Bobo is out there and the bushes just
a messive with people.
Speaker 1 (48:12):
That's awesome.
Speaker 2 (48:13):
We we had a we had an interesting comment just
directing us towards some things from again. It is the Jaycats,
I believe, or Aspa his wonderful wife and you down
South Anomalies. And they know you. I know because you
comment on their wonderful show as well on the Ontario Network.
And he mentions it was Robert Stack, the actor from
The Untouchables. I mean that I think he means by
(48:34):
the Untouchables, the old television series, not the Kevan uh okay,
not the who Who's the Kevin Costa movie? Right that
did Unsolved Mystery. So that's right. It was Robert Stack.
And he says, unfortunately, the original negatives of In Search
of were destroyed, which is making but he says, uh,
(48:55):
the box set is from videotape, which is probably accurate
because the box set isn't that fantastic equality, But he
says because he has these wonderful archives in Sydney, that's
where I probably first met him when I was doing
my festivals in Sydney. Early on, I would go to
his wonderful moon MEAs on screenings that both he and
his wife Aspa would do. We have some prints and
I believe that I know, in fact, I know that
(49:17):
that he does like and they have such an incredible
collection of underground cinema and offbeat fortya. I thought. I
used to think when I was in Sydney, I've got
to have I've got to have the biggest UFO book
collection in Sydney, Like I had an incredible collection. And
I went to his moon meat on archives one day.
They've since moved, but they were in Sydney then I
was like, no, I have nowhere near the biggest collection
of UFO books. Really, Yeah, that's that's obviously. Ja Katz
(49:41):
and Aspasia was pretty phenomenal.
Speaker 3 (49:43):
Well, they said they have a bed ready for me
to go to Australia. So you should.
Speaker 2 (49:48):
The wonderful people you get on with love so much.
Speaker 3 (49:52):
We'll probably just watch crazy movies for a week and
read UFO books. Man.
Speaker 2 (49:58):
And by the way, that offer goes if you ever
want to come to Wisconsin as well?
Speaker 3 (50:02):
Yeah, same here, yep, I have a guest bet guest
bedroom so single guy.
Speaker 2 (50:09):
We can we can we can binge my old videotape
versions of In Search of at least if you go
and see Day and asp for at least I'll be
playing like the film versions and it will be like.
Speaker 3 (50:21):
That's great, I love it.
Speaker 2 (50:24):
So what what's your what's your take on the state
of the state of all of this research today? Like
I suspect you share some of my ideas. I don't
expect that you share all of them, because nobody does.
But when you when you hear about let's maybe swing
to UFOs again for a moment, when you hear of
all the type of you know, the congressional hearings and
(50:46):
these talks of disclosure and all this stuff, what what
what's your your gut instinct or your immediate kind of
response to that type of talk.
Speaker 4 (50:55):
Oh, solid smoke and mirrors.
Speaker 3 (50:58):
Yeah, we aren't going to get any thing from the
government where, you know, the more I listen, the more
I think it's it's people are just lying. They're full
of ship full of crap, and you don't know what's
a sy op and what's real. So anything that comes
out from Congress or anything like a tip, I don't
(51:23):
believe it.
Speaker 4 (51:23):
So it's hard.
Speaker 3 (51:25):
It's hard. It's like, uh, alezando, luis azando. I don't
I don't believe the word he says Steven Greer, And
you know how I feel about that guy. It's like,
I don't know, David Grush seems reputable, but who knows
that whole Jake Barber thing about. Now they're using uh
(51:48):
what do they call them?
Speaker 4 (51:49):
Like mental like mental.
Speaker 3 (51:55):
Stuff to try and call these things out of uh
with with sounds like they say, oh, we have one
hundred percent rate where we can get things to show up.
Speaker 4 (52:04):
Okay, we'll prove it.
Speaker 3 (52:06):
Show us the money, show me the money like that.
I've been waiting for the money shot for decades.
Speaker 1 (52:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (52:15):
They might just be saying close in canters too many times.
Do I love it? Yeah? But I agree with you
from before. I don't think we're any closer to anything.
I really don't feel like we're any closer to answers
to any of these questions. M hm.
Speaker 3 (52:33):
No, it's like John Keel said, Man, they just mess
with the air and then they sit back and laugh.
Whatever the phenomena is. Yeah, and it feels like it's
all tied together.
Speaker 2 (52:50):
I don't know I think it's all tied together. I
think it's I often wonder if and I've said this
on the show a few times, I'd love to hear
your taking, and please disagree with me if you do.
I often wonder if it isn't even the I'll say
the phenomenon, because by that I mean everything, So the phenomena, bigfoot, ghosts, UFOs, fairies,
(53:12):
everything else. If the meaning of it or the significance
of it isn't it itself, but it somehow is telling
us something about our reality or the nature of our reality,
and we're too busy focused on it to go what
does this tell us about us or about where we're placed,
or what the nature of where we exist is.
Speaker 3 (53:35):
Yeah, I'm with you on that, Dean, Or if you
want to go even deeper, like get Carl Jung on it,
maybe it's all being projected from us, you know, somehow,
and the collective of unconsciousness it's what do they call it,
(53:59):
you know, toplas of some sort. The more people believe
in something and that just becomes reality.
Speaker 2 (54:07):
Maybe I'm more comfortable with that interpretation that there's a
relectomony in the woods and aliens from Venus or is
that a particular or choose or stuff. At the moment,
the great Aunt Edna ghost is haunting the back, you know,
corridor of the family. Stay like at least that at
(54:27):
least we start to think of, you know, alternative ideas
that might get us closer to some kind of solution,
even if it's not the solution. It readjusts our thinking
on these things.
Speaker 4 (54:37):
Yeah, you know. I have a one ghost story.
Speaker 3 (54:42):
Was I was sixteen years old Lake Shellanne. There's a
spot called Holden Village, and it's an old mining town
that has been converted into kind of a camp, like
a Lutheran camp, and there's cabins there and there like
a group collective cafeteria. But I was walking at night
(55:08):
with the kid and he was talking. The pathways are
lit up, and I saw a lady in a white
dress I would say seventy yards eighty yards away. I
didn't think anything of it, and she disappeared. I looked
(55:30):
at the kid, he stopped talking, He looked at me
and went and we went, oh crap, that broad just disappeared.
Speaker 4 (55:40):
When we started running.
Speaker 3 (55:43):
But I always thought how weird it was in an
old mining encampment in the woods and you know, surrounded
by woods where there's some bigfoot encounters out there Lake Chlan.
You know, it's pretty deep. And I've always wondered you
hear the whole Lady in White story in the woods
(56:07):
being tied a big foot somehow, And I've heard a
few stories that just don't make sense. You know, why
would those two things be tied together. You need to
talk to Joshua Cutchin and Tim Renner about that.
Speaker 2 (56:23):
But they really are both great. We have a couple
of other questions which I think aimed at you. I
was gonna say flat, because absolutely calling you flat. Yeh, fine, man,
This is from blue collar crypto and he says, do
you think that the government actually knows a lot but
won't tell us? Or do they have no idea? So
(56:44):
I'm assuming he's talking about UFOs, but maybe he's talking
about the broader weirdness.
Speaker 3 (56:48):
That's my brother. I think, I don't know, Nick, that's
a good question. When you say the government, that's the
loaded loaded terms. So I think there are people that
that know a lot more than we're being told. And
I don't know, Man, going back the whole flesh and
blood versus not physical being, you've here. I've heard people
(57:15):
hit these things with their car or shoot them and
they'll call the cops and next thing you know, d
n R or some group shows up within minutes and
hauls the body away. It's almost like the whole Smithsonian
thing and giant skeletons. They're just like bye never. I
don't know what you're talking about. So I don't know, man,
(57:36):
But I've heard other stories where people here, like, you know,
like a Delta force go out. Even here we have
Fort Lewis right down the street from where I'm at.
I've heard five or six stories of people experiencing a
bigfoot entity on the base while they're doing training and
(57:58):
they say, don't carry live amm o. If you see
you might see something weird.
Speaker 4 (58:01):
Don't worry about it.
Speaker 3 (58:02):
And they experience something pacing them. But there was one
story where the guy there was a group and they
weren't supposed to be there and they saw they said
it was Delta force, like shoot two of these beings
and they saw them dead. One was gasping for life.
And they got scolded. They got taken to a room
(58:23):
for hours and just like you better not you better
shut your mouth, blah blah, blah, Why wouldn't he make
that up? Maybe just to tell a story. But that
makes you wonder, like, Okay, they know more. We're not
being told the full truth by whoever. And that goes
(58:45):
for everything everything.
Speaker 2 (58:50):
I think. I guess one of the things I wonder
about is how much of the full truth to these institutions. No,
we have another question for you from Luke Duke, what
would constitute refutable evidence to you, and more importantly, the
scientific community at large that a bigfoot or sasquatch like
creature currently exists short of an actual life capture. So
(59:11):
what evidence do you think we need?
Speaker 3 (59:14):
I don't know, Luke. I always said you need a body.
But even if you had a body, I don't think
that's even going to convince the community at large. That's
a great question, my man. I always wondered if I
found a bigfoot in the woods dead, what would I do?
(59:36):
If you call the authorities? That thing's going to disappear, obviously,
so I would say I'd cut off a hand or something,
or even the head, put it in my backpack, drive
to Doug Hicheck's house.
Speaker 4 (59:48):
Here, man, take this, if you leave the whole thing people.
Speaker 3 (59:53):
Have found bodies in the woods and came back the
next day and they were gone, and everything was swept
up like nothing happened. So that's a great question.
Speaker 4 (01:00:03):
I think about it all.
Speaker 3 (01:00:04):
The time, like I don't, especially with video and being
AI nowadays, you can't have anything less than a body,
and I don't even know if that will be enough.
So where do you go from there?
Speaker 2 (01:00:20):
It's a great question here, It is a good question,
and that's assuming that there's a body to be found. Yeah, yeah,
I think all of these things serve some kind of
purpose that I can hypothesize on, but I really don't know.
I think it's an ongoing narrative of supernatural experiences where
it's impossible to bring back evidence to prove your point.
(01:00:43):
And we see that in a lot of fairy faith.
We've seen a lot of et stories as well. We've
seen a lot of Bigfoot stories for sure, almost have
the evidence to bring home and show just never just
like like the fairy faith might be the greatest example.
Somebody takes gold from fairyland and when they get home
to pull it out, it's just his dust or leaves gone. Yeah,
(01:01:04):
it's gone. And isn't that the state of all of
the people have an experience which to them is is real,
perhaps more real than their everyday experiences. But when they
think they have some evidence to present it, it's either
not there, or they can't acquire the evidence to validate
to the greater their greater friend group, or they're greater
(01:01:26):
even the world in general. They just cannot validate that
experience with any evidence.
Speaker 3 (01:01:30):
Hey, Dean, I have a one quick story like that
ties into that. I was mushroom hunting a couple of
years ago, and I print that was worthy of casting.
And this one was like a beautiful print and there's
you could see the five toes. And here's the funny thing.
I'm the guy that drives around with a bag of
(01:01:53):
dental stone and a bowl like ready to cast. And
for some reason I cleaned my car out that weekend
and they didn't put it back in crap. I'll come
back the next day. I come back, the print's gone.
It had been kind of just like swept over, like
I knew exactly where it was, was in the right spot,
(01:02:16):
just gone. I don't and I hear you hear stories
of that all the time, just stuff being swept. Some
people say it looked like a hairy arm just went
but it was just not there. It blew my mind.
I don't know what to make of it either. And
it wasn't like on a trail where people go. It
(01:02:39):
was off and logging territory where no one goes. Maybe
a couple of mushroom hunters, but they aren't going to
like wipe up a print.
Speaker 4 (01:02:49):
It was super weird.
Speaker 2 (01:02:51):
That is super weird. Speaking of super weird, this was
a wonderfully wed conversation. It was such a great joy
to have you on the show with me tonight, Matt,
So thank you so much for coming on.
Speaker 3 (01:03:04):
Had a great time.
Speaker 2 (01:03:05):
And then I want to bring you back on more
regularly because I think we can just talk. You know,
I can't love you talk about the one that is
and yeah, let's let's get you back sometime soon. Man,
So thank you again.
Speaker 3 (01:03:16):
We didn't even talk about Maury, so let's.
Speaker 2 (01:03:19):
We hardly talk a little bit. But we have given
there we'll get the next time. We'll do a Mari
r M episode.
Speaker 3 (01:03:24):
Nice, Okay, sounds good.
Speaker 2 (01:03:26):
Matt, Thanks, thank you again. And until I get to
talk to you again very shortly, maybe in the even
in the green room after I stopped recording in a moment,
and until I can talk to everybody else out there,
please keep it weird.
The paranormal, UFOs, monsters, mysteries that you're listening to Talking
Weird and know from a Kevin deep in the northwards
your host, Doctor.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Dean Bertram, Greetings of my fellow widows and widows, Welcome
(00:45):
to Talking Weird on the Untold Radio Network. I'm your host,
Dean Bertram, and as always I'm grateful and honored that
you've decided to spend the next hour or so of
your life with me. Whether you're watching the show live
or it goes out on video and audio every Tuesday
night at nine pm Central, or maybe you're watching it
archived on those sides of YouTube and Facebook and x
(01:06):
or perhaps you're listening to it the following day or
after the follow day, because it always drops on the
next on the Wednesday after the Tuesday night on any
podcast platform out there. Anyway, Greetings, thank you for being here.
I hope you're gonna get weird with us, because it's
going to be a fun one tonight. I'm looking so
forward to. This is somebody I should have had on
a long time ago, because he's great. I've seen him
on the Flagship Show recently on the Untold Radio Show
(01:31):
at Doug Hichech show, the head of this network, and
I was say, Man, this guy's awesome. I need to
get him on. He's been a big supporter of the show,
a good friend for I don't know how many years
at the show now, certainly certainly sometime and usually I
would talk a little bit about what I've been up to,
but I think I'm going to talk to him about
it as well as to you, because I think we
can have a fun chat, and then we'll go into
(01:52):
all the weirdness of Washington State, from UFOs and Bigfoot
and strange hauntings perhaps and even the notorious Maury Island incident,
which is something I'm fascinated with. So I would like
you to if you were here, I get you to
give him a big round of applause. Maybe you can
do it in your living room or on your maybe
not in your car wherever else you are. Somebody many
(02:14):
of you might know from the chat who are engaged
in the chat, Flat Rockland, whose real name is Matt Auckland,
Greetings Flat Slash Matt, Hi, Madam Dean. So good to
have you on the show. I know a lot of
people in the chat are already excited because a lot
of people who were in the live chat every Tuesday night,
which is always a lot of fun, and other shows
on the Untold are aware of you are. Here's a
(02:37):
classic example. Now, this is Jay Katz or his wife
who do the Down South, a nominally show on the
Untold Radio network. He's super excited about it. Wow, what
an episode he or she is saying.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
All the asses are here tonight.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
As yeah, there's and there's all other kind of you know,
other people who were checking the time, him Kincaid, somebody
Lisa who's last name I don't know. Bob Antone, who's
a good friend of the show, lives in your part
of the world as well, took me around around Moury
Island when I was there last summer shooting my documentary.
Horace Smith another good friend of the show. Both Bob
and Horace have been guests on the show. Horace, of course,
(03:16):
is the professor emeris of Astronomy and Physics at Michigan
State University. So there's all kinds of buzz in the
chat already. So we are going to have to live
up to these expectations, ah, which I'm sure we go to.
There's there's too many comments that just can't keep showing
them all, but I'm going to keep an eye on
the comments. If you have any questions for a for
(03:37):
Flat as you might know him or Matt, please just
jump in and I will try to keep my eye
on questions in the chat. If maybe if you have
a question, if you quit it all in cap then
I can see it easier. That might make my life
a little bit easier tonight, because the chat's already super practice.
So man, what have you been up to lately?
Speaker 4 (03:58):
How much.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
I need to get up to the mountains and give
you some more experiences, but had time.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
We'll get in this experience. I know you were fishing recently,
which looks super cool.
Speaker 4 (04:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
Yeah, recently went up to Vancouver Island and did a
week of fishing up there. And I think last time
I talked to you, I was actually in Port Towns
and fishing for a few days with my uncle, same
guy fished in Vancouver Island with so didn't catch any fish,
but we got a bunch of crab and I got
(04:32):
to feed some of my cousins that came up from
Arizona last this week last week, and they're actually in
chat right now.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
I think.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
I think you mentioned some of your family and cousins,
your family. You said we were dropping in because we'll
get to it, because Mario Island were one of my
favorite subjects in the entire area of the we and
we'll get there because I know I understand some of
your family leaving Morio Island. But no before the show, I,
as I mentioned, I talk a little bit usually about
what I've been up to with the documentary. But you've
(05:04):
been so supportive of the documentary always, You're always like
liking my posts and like, I can't wait. Yeah, Well,
I thought maybe I could talk about it just a
little bit with you and then we'll move on to
your stuff. Doesn't I don't want to leave you hanging
in the green room. Well, I took about so most
people who watch the show, you as well, obviously know
that I've been making this documentary called The Man Who
Invented Flax Sources for almost three years now, two and
(05:26):
a half years. I have a short extract of it
called The Shave of Mystery, which has played a couple
dozen festivals around the world, and it's still playing. But
this weekend, or the actually four days, I was in
New York City, Upper State, New York and Cambridge, Massachusetts,
and Boston shooting interviews. I hope it's my last trip
about East. It's my second trip out East. I'm from Wisconsin.
(05:47):
And some of the people I got to speak to,
I shouldn't say some. All of the people I got
to speak to this long again, long weekend were absolutely phenomenal,
and I thought I'd give a shut out to them
and people who are interested in the Shaver mystery or
Ray Palmer and Richard Shaver. And if you don't know
what that is, I said, would points you at a
(06:08):
website called shavertron dot com or any of the books
by the person who who runs that side. He used
to run a newsletter for many years, or a fans
in called shaver Tron. He's written an incredible autobiography or autobiography,
a biography of Richard Shave and Ray Palmer called war
Oval Muria. He's written a companion piece called Shavirology, multiple
(06:30):
other books. He's got several books on the topic. But
through him Richard Toronto, who is a producer on the film,
I was able to meet a number of fairly spectacular individuals. Oh,
that's another photo of me and Brian, Actually I need classes.
That's not the one that's at Ray Palmer's grave, but
that's not what we're talking about tonight. There is Brian
Emrick on the left, who is the world's largest collector
(06:53):
of Richard Shaver ephemera and artwork. He owns an incredible
amount of it. On his right is who we interviewed
this weekend. His friend. This is in New York City
where they were strolling along and I was filming them
before we did the interview. That is Norman Brosterman, who
was an art dealer who sold most of the known
Shaver artwork on the planet, which he acquired from somebody
(07:16):
called Jim Pops to who'd taken who'd been able to
acquire the Shave art work after Shaver's death from the
Shaver Shack in Summon, Arkansas, where I've also been. So
if it wasn't for these two men, we might not
have a lot of it. Brian bought most of the
artwork that Norman Brostoman sold. We interviewed Norman Brostman this
weekend again. Richard Toronto and Brian Emrick are both producers,
(07:39):
my producers on the film, and they're probably two of
the most knowledgeable people in the Shaver space. And Norman
Brostoman had his own incredible tale to tell about running,
you know, getting Shave artwork and outside art outside artists books,
contributing to various galleries throughout throughout the time, selling the artwork,
acquiring the artwork. So anyway, who's interested in Shaver Broston
(08:02):
is quite phenomenal. Here I am with Charles Lear, who
has been on Talking Weird before. He wrote a book
on early UFO researchers, some wonderful stuff on Richard Shaver
and Ray Palmer. When I found out about his book
and I knew I was going to New York, I
really wanted to interview him, and I did. There we
are on the streets of Manhattan talking and we interviewed
(08:23):
him in a more controlled space. Obviously as well, because
Manhattan is super loud, people might be able to see
the smoke coming out of out of the sewer system
whatever it is, the heating events system. She's always seen
films there. I'm very grateful to my girlfriend Samantha, who
took the footage that that's from a lot of these
actually screen grabs from stuff that is in the film.
(08:47):
One of the most important people in the realm of Shaverrism,
I suppose is the man in the middle here between
Brian Emrick on the left and myself. For you all
know I'm on the right. That man is Doug. He
now runs John Keel dot com. He was very good
friends with John Keel. He's the person who took care
of John Keel when John Keel got older in life,
(09:09):
and was actually at John Kill's bedside when he passed.
He pretty much is perhaps the most important person in
preserving much of what we have of John Keeley. If
you visit John kill dot com, you can read all
types of ephemera which we never would have had if
it wasn't for Doug. I met Doug at Fort Fest
(09:31):
in Maryland in nineteen ninety nine, and I'm glad I
was able to reconnect with him for the movie. For
a couple of reasons. A John Keele is the man
who coined the term the man who invented flying saws.
As John Keeley, the Mothman prophecies suggested that it was
Raymond Palmer who pretty much is responsible for the flying
sauce ufo law that we have today. And that's a
(09:51):
bigger topic that we can get into right now, Doug Skinner,
as he's holding there in his hand is an issue
of Fate magazine from two thousand and four which has
Richard Shaver on the cover of that magazine, and the
article inside that magazine is titled What's this Shaver Revival?
And as Doug Skinner says in the film, he was
(10:12):
very happy to have been able to get Richard Shaver
on the cover of Fate magazine for the first time
and something like, well, the first time ever, because Ray
Palmer founded Fate Magazine and even under Ray Palmer, Richard
Shaver was never on the cover. There was a piece
ran in the early days of Fate about Richard Shaver
about the Shaver mystery, and readers were so antagonistic that
(10:35):
Palmer and nobody else ever ran a serious piece on
Shaver in that again. Doug Skinner also wrote introductions to
well in an introduction to one of Richard Toronto's wonderful
books on Richard Shaver's artwork, and frequently, well as frequently
as anybody can because those many opportunities, but has several
times lectured and presented on Richard Shaver at various art
(10:57):
gallery shows and he was recently in Lilydale. In fact,
he's been lily Dale a number of times, but the
Spiritualist convention in Upstate New York talking about Richard Shaver
there as well. Man have one more image, So that's
we've seen the first three people that we interviewed, that
being Norman Brostermann, Charles Lee, and Doug Skinner. And these
are the last two. The two men on the right here,
(11:18):
the man in the blue shirt is David Ridder. Slightly
behind him is Daniel Ridder. They own this incredible archive
of Palmer material and just pulp material in general and
early fandom material in general, including I'm not sure if
that's what he's holding now, but an original manuscripts and
(11:40):
a copy of the in fact, Ray Palmer's copy of Cosmos,
which kind of in many ways set tone for all
of the science fiction which followed, because Ray Palmer wasn't
just the man who invented flaning sauces. He's the man
who almost shaped modern science fiction. And they have a
wonderful website and a number of books on what they call, well,
(12:01):
they call it the first fandom experience, but they have
a book on Palmer's They have a number of books
that concentrate on Palmer and they're all absolutely wonderful. And
you can see Brian Emrick, my producer, in the background
there and I'm there obviously filming and the far left
and again it was my wonderful girlfriend Samantha who took
that footage, which is also going to be in the film. Anyway,
(12:23):
this isn't about me, but I wanted to do this
while you were here, Matt, instead of doing it while
you were sitting in the green room waiting. So that's
what I got through this weekend.
Speaker 4 (12:33):
That's awesome.
Speaker 3 (12:34):
I can't wait to see that. When's the ETA?
Speaker 2 (12:38):
Well, I think, I think? No, Well, I'm very close now.
I've been like I said, I've been shooting for two
and a half years. I plan to finish all of
the actual filming this summer into the early four and
it will be shot out. I've edited already about eighty
five minutes, which will be honed down. Obviously, the five
different people are interviewed this weekend will have to be
(13:00):
introduced considerably into that cut. And I don't want a
two hour movie. I only want a movie that's going
to be ninety two one hundred minutes. So it's going
to have to be honed down. There's a few more
interviews I have to shoot this summer, and then I
get so busy with the festivals I run from October
through through March that I will probably not have it
edited until sometime next year. So I hope it'll be
(13:22):
out in the festival circuit, or at least submitted to
the festival circuit by middish next year. That's my plan.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
Hey, I have a question for you. Is Charles Lear
related to John Lear?
Speaker 2 (13:33):
You know what? I actually asked him that, and I
think he said there might be some family connection there,
but it's not like, you know, he was the grandson
or something of John Ley, which would be fantastic because
he wrote that stuff as well. He has a I
should remember the titles, I'm sure if somebody goes on Amazon.
So he has a couple of books on your fology.
One of the books is the book which was most
relevant to my film because it looks at the early researchers.
(13:55):
But he has another book which looks more at the
type of stuff that John Lee and Bobblers are and
Richard Dodie and William Moore and those type of people.
Were front and center in forming the mythology around in
that kind of late seventies through you know, through the
eighties into the early nineties. I guess X Files uphology
(14:16):
is I always call it, or the dark Side hypothesis,
as Jerome Clark calls it, or when we think of
those deep conspiracy kind of plots you see on the
X Files. So yeah, maybe maybe he is. That's a
great iron. Well he is, I think more distantly, but
Charles Ley is related to one of the key progenitors
of that mythology.
Speaker 3 (14:36):
That's awesome. Well, can't wait, man, I'm looking forward to it.
That you don't do any festivals out here, so I'm
gonna have to fly over to Wisconsin.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
And well, you know, but you missed, you missed the
Shaven Mystery when it's screen in your backyard of the
chiare was flying source of film festival last year?
Speaker 4 (14:55):
Where was that in Chills?
Speaker 3 (14:57):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Yes, yeah, they do a big celebration every year there
and there's a there's a there, there's a it's it's
a film festival, as was a celebration of Fnald Siding.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
And well, speaking of Shlis, I think that's about where
that plane crash that had the slag on it from
the Moury Island incident. It was headed south and it
crashed just south of Shelas.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
Maybe that's a great segue into connection with Moury Island.
Speaker 3 (15:28):
Yeah, yeah, So I know Dean loves the whole Moury
Island incident.
Speaker 4 (15:34):
UFO deal, and we Dean.
Speaker 3 (15:40):
I've kind of thrown it out there in episodes like, Hey,
I'm on Moury right now and I'm looking over the sound.
But my my mom grew up on Moury Island and
my folks actually live in the house that she grew
up and now, and so I get to go out
there all the time and walk out to the bluff
(16:01):
overlooking where that the whole incident happened, which is kind
of cool. Well, I was thinking of you, Dean.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
If we knew each other better when I was there
last year, we definitely would have hung out. I was
there for I wasn't there for the Chills Flying Soaurcer
Festival that was a little later. I think I was
there for.
Speaker 4 (16:21):
Anniversary.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
Well, I was there for the Men in Black, the
Men in Black Birthday bash because I wanted to be
there for the for the Moury Island anniversary and the
appearance of the Men in Black. So I was with
Bob Anto Beach on the day that the Moury Island
incident happened on the Moury Island beach, and then the
following day I think it is is when Harold Dahle
(16:43):
had the first encounter with the first ever Man in
Black and I was at the Men in Black birthday
bash and I interviewed Steve Edmondson, who's the head of
that festival, who's a wonderful historian as well as well
for that. But when you were when you were in
that area, do you think people are still cognizant of
significance of Morio. I'm like just your average person. I'm
not talking about UFO nuts like me.
Speaker 3 (17:04):
But no, not really. I mean there's there's people on
the island that know about it, and most people have
no idea what you're talking about.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
Unfortunately, that's crazy.
Speaker 3 (17:18):
I know, I know most people here probably have no
idea what we're talking about that are visiting today. Happened
in nineteen forty seven, right was it a couple of
weeks before Kennetharnald's siding. But was it before Roswell a
little bit before Roswell happened.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
Yeah, I mean supposedly the Morio Island incident I believe
takes place on June twenty first, which is three days
before Kenneth Donald sees the three days courses above Morio,
above above Mount Ranier or nie Mount Ranier. And I
think that's something which I never realized was actually there.
(18:00):
I knew they were in Washington, but Mori Island kind
of looms over I mean, sorry, Mount Rainier, which is
the mountain most associated with Kenneth Arnald's initial siding of
the sources, because that's where he saw them travel in
front of, I think.
Speaker 3 (18:16):
Or near.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
It really looms over Morey Island, like it's just you know,
when you when you're on Moury Island looking back towards
the Seattle Tacoma kind of area, Des Moines kind of area,
it's right there. Like you can't mistake the closeness of
both the Moory Island incident and Kenneth Arnald's siding, which,
if the Moylan incident did happen in on June twenty one,
(18:40):
Kenneth Donald's siding happened June twenty four. And you're right,
about it being before Roswell, because Roswell was around July fourth,
so it's you know, it's still another ten days out
or more.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
I didn't know it was only three days apart from
Kenneth Arnold's that's cool. I thought it was a couple
of weeks.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
No, it's it's literally just before just supposedly interesting. Okay,
the people they still see things. I mean, you would
know maybe you can talk a little bit about your
family background there or your family engagement with the area.
Speaker 3 (19:11):
You know, I don't hear of a lot of UFO sidings.
If you're looking south towards the mountain from Morey, you'll
see Tacoma, And I'm kind of right there, a few
miles down in Tacoma. But we have so much light pollution.
It's it's it's hard to see anything in the sky.
(19:32):
You don't see stars. I mean, you see stars, but
it's not like being out in the woods or Wisconsin
or Wyoming or something like that. So yeah, not really. Unfortunately,
you need to get out of town a little further
where I can see the sky.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
I know you've had other experiences you'll talk about, but
I'm not sure if you've had a UFO experience have
you had Have you had anything approx. I've had a.
Speaker 3 (20:01):
Couple couple interesting things happened in the woods. I'd say
my favorite UFO experience, which actually ties in somewhat to Bigfoot,
I was I was camping. This is years ago. I
was camping at some lakes out in the green Water
(20:22):
and I heard I don't know what to make of this.
It was two in the morning, and I mentioned this
on Doug Show last time I was on that. He asked,
what's the weirdest thing you've ever heard out in the woods?
Speaker 2 (20:35):
And I thought about it.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
I was like, you know, it was about two in
the morning. I happened to be awake in my tent
and I heard what sounded like like a file when
they're putting in the the pilings for freeways, like those
big machines, just chick chean chee chean. And I'm ten
(20:58):
miles at least away from any road. At first, I thought, Oh,
they're doing construction on the freeway, and I thought about,
there's no freeway close to here, and it was just
this rhythmic metallic sound. Happened seven times in the next minute.
I think it was five next minute happened again seven,
(21:19):
then next minute eleven, next minute four, and it stopped.
But it started at two o'clock. I looked at my watch.
I was like, that's bizarre. I have no idea what
to make that. Someone's digging a well at two in
the morning. I who knows.
Speaker 4 (21:34):
So that was.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
That was July of twenty twenty one. And every year
I go lobster diving in southern California off out of Ventura.
Speaker 4 (21:48):
We go on a.
Speaker 3 (21:48):
Boat for three days and we dive for lobsters, about
eighteen dives and you're out. Shoot, You're out sixty miles
to these little islands, the Channel Islands. We try and
go to Santa Barbara, which is really small, and Santa Cruz,
Santa Rosa.
Speaker 4 (22:08):
So I'm out there. I'm talking to this kid.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
Kid, he's my age, shout out Zach, and you know,
I always try to bring up, hey, man, you ever
see Bigfoot or UFOs? I was throwing that out there
is to see what the response is, and he goes, yeah,
you know, I was. Me and my dad are at
this lake a couple of years ago and we're you know,
(22:31):
we're hunkered down for the night and we just hear
this god awful scream out across the lake.
Speaker 4 (22:37):
And it's not a big lake.
Speaker 3 (22:38):
You could throw a rock across it easy. He's like,
it was the craziest scream. We were so scared and
I had to be Bigfoot. And I turns out he
said it was the name of this lake is Lost Lake.
Granted there's probably six or seven lost lakes in Washington
(22:59):
State alone, but we figured out it was the same
damn lake. I just just was camping out three months
earlier and heard that crazy those crazy sounds, so.
Speaker 4 (23:12):
That was weird.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
That was a weird coincidence. So that night we're on
the boat actually hold on that day, I asked one
of the deckhands, hey man, you ever see any UFOs
I hear because you're you're just north of Catalina Island
where people see those or the tic tac UFOs have
been reported by the Navy, and lots of UFO sidings
(23:35):
down there. It's it's a big military area, tons of
UFO siding. So I said, hey man, you never see anything,
And the kids said, I haven't, But I was on
the boat with one of my captains saw one night
he was on a little boat. This is a sidetrack.
Sorry forgetting off track, but he's just on his little
(23:57):
fishing vessel, you know, going to bed for the night,
and an orb comes up. It sounded like a big orb,
like a beach ball, just circling his boat, and it
freaked him out. So a couple hours later, it gets
dark and I'm hanging out with Zach and we're just
having a beer on the front of the boat and
I see off in the distance it looked like a
(24:20):
shooting star, bright shooting star, but it kept going at
like a forty five degree angle, and it was enough
time to where I'm like.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
Zack, Zach, look check it out.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
He goes, oh, oh, crazy, And then it went from
a forty five to a flatline, just just instantly, and
could have been a jet maybe, but it just the
way it just quickly went going towards inland. It was
super bizarre, and it just happened to coincide with me
(24:52):
asking the guy pr seeing UFO, So UFO, I just
tied in a UFO story, Bigfoot, try that one.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
You did a good job, man. Do you think that
is just something? Because I suspect you have I don't
know if you look at the phenomenon exactly the same
as I do. But I suspect by some of your
comments that you're sympathetic to the idea that things might
be related. Do you suspect, Yeah, maybe you talk a
little bit about that. Do you suspect there's some correlation
(25:23):
or relationship between Bigfoot sightings and UFO sidings?
Speaker 4 (25:29):
Definitely?
Speaker 2 (25:29):
I I do.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
I do. And it's funny in the bigfoot community, there's
you know, there's the flesh and blood folk, and then
there's the folks that think, oh man, Bigfoot's an alien.
You know, I'm I'm somewhere in the middle, and like
you Dean, like I think it's like John Keel believe
it is all kind of all the same, ultra terrestrial
(25:54):
who knows it's kind of all just barely beyond that veil.
That veils really thin, and I don't think sometimes we
can see where that line is, and I think it
blends in physical to metaphysical really easily. Like, for instance,
(26:16):
you could see a bigfoot, you could you could find
some bigfoot scat, you could find footprints, but like sometimes
those footprints end in the middle of a field, and
it's like where did it go? Or you hear stories
of bigfoot walking into a tree, or lots of stories
of you know, the cloaking like it looked like the
(26:38):
predator and you could see it shimmering and then it
just kind of disappeared. It's like, I don't know what
to make of that. I've never seen a bigfoot, so
I don't know. I can't say that it's real or not.
But I know that thousands of people have seen something
and they've seen a lot of weird crap, and you
(27:02):
can't toss that out. You can't toss the baby out
with the bath wad.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
So I mean, I don't know exactly what to make
it either. But there's all these kind of associated aspects
of experiencing the bigfoot phenomenon. So either when people don't
see bigfoot, a stone is thrown it in the wood
so they hear a sound which is a whoop, or
(27:27):
they see a weird tree structure. I mean, there's hundreds
of these things. So there's often people who've had bigfoot
experiences or believe they've had Bigfoot experiences. And for those
of you listening, I'm doing kind of parents around bigfoot.
Speaker 4 (27:40):
That's where I'm at.
Speaker 3 (27:41):
I don't know what it was all these weird noises
and experiences. I can't say as bigfoot, it was something weird.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
I'm anomalous in the woods. I mean, I don't doubt that,
and I don't doubt people even see foot. I'm just
not sure that it's a hairy hormone is murtoring around.
Speaker 3 (28:06):
Yeah, it's I almost think it. It could be an
avatar sometimes, you know, just whatever they want you to
see or whatever your mind perceives it to be. You know,
some people see I mean, people see little people around
here a lot, and that freaks me out. I don't
(28:27):
need any of that when I'm out hiking.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
Can you tell me any of the stories, you know,
because I'm fascinated with the with the fair folk, and you.
Speaker 3 (28:34):
Know I am too, and I am too dean, and
I almost think a lot of it, it, you know,
has to do with almost like spirits or elementals of
some sort, and it's it's kind of all tied together,
like you said. But I don't have any experience with
little people, but very close to here, i'd say around
(28:58):
Mount Saint Helens, between Mount Siye Helens Mount Adams, I've
heard a few stories just another podcast where they see it.
Speaker 4 (29:08):
One lady saw one at night and like.
Speaker 3 (29:10):
A head lights just real quick in the corner, and
she told her hosts like, hey, I just saw this
little guy and he the host got really serious and
he's like, Okay, don't say anything. Don't repeat its name,
because they will follow you home and basically mess your
life up, like you know, like trickster style, and it
(29:34):
will suck for you. Just you know, you hear people
saying don't repeat you know, skin walker or wind to Go,
but I've never heard of like don't don't repeat the
little people. I was like, okay, great, now I have
to worry about that I.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
Don't know.
Speaker 3 (29:53):
And also the same area, I heard a story that
a lake I go to with some friends near Packwood.
The guy was hiking with his buddy and he saw
like two three foot little gnome like not elves, but
like like troll looking fellas walking up on the hill
(30:14):
just like a mile away from the lake. And I'm thinking, great, man,
because I go out a long dean all the time
and I I, you know, I have a I carry
a forty five on a chess rag where I can
easily grab it. But but yeah, I don't know if
that's going to help me in a lot of these situations.
But it's just peace of mind.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
So it might help you with the fairfolk, but it'll
help you with maybe a bear or well that's yeah,
or or some crazy you know human out there, like
I think to go. I think people who go into
the woods not being armed, Yeah, taking chances. Even when
I go to my back forty here, there's bear around here,
there's kaya, there's there's a bobcat in my daughter's treehouse
(30:57):
the other day, you know what I mean. So I'm
always even my back forty, I'm always on.
Speaker 3 (31:02):
You have forty acres at your property.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
Yeah, it's very it's very standard in Yeah. Yeah, but
that anyway, My point is says this, and I'm not
I'm not out like and you know the Pacific Northwest
with you know this kind of incredible range of land
where Lord knows what is. But even here there's all
kinds of kinds of weird scary.
Speaker 3 (31:25):
Well, yeah, it's mostly for for people that are out
of line. You know, we have cougars and we have
black Bear. They released I think ten grizzlies into the
North Cascades this year.
Speaker 4 (31:40):
Thanks guys. I mean, I love and then wolves too.
Speaker 3 (31:44):
But I don't know if that's going to stop a grizzly.
And I'm not worried about really any of that. It's
it's mostly people's people that are out of line.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
No, I agree, but I mean, at least it will
stop it could it'll stop a wolf. I mean it
would be better risally than nothing. Yeah, I mean that
we have bar, we have beer here as well, Like
there was a bit. I haven't seen it, but people
have seen bear crossing my road here. There's wolves here.
There's a wolf predation here. Like if you go to
the DNR side or whatever he's heid and you track
wolf predation, there's wolf predation in my area, like really yeah, yeah,
(32:19):
so it's crazy. But but you know what I thought,
because I mean, I know you from engaging with you
in the chatsamon you've been. I always love to see
you there and I love to see you on the
other network shows as well. But what got you into
your interest in this stuff initially?
Speaker 3 (32:35):
You know, Doug asked me that, and I have I
don't have an answer for that.
Speaker 4 (32:39):
I just maybe boredom, just I'm just curious.
Speaker 3 (32:50):
Hang on, I last ye, Okay.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
I'm still here I think maybe they just was that
can happen, we can bump a window or something.
Speaker 3 (32:57):
I was blessed in the fact that my parents took
me camping. I grew up in southern California in Riverside,
and my mom and dad took us down by the
sand was seen to mountains to shoot what was it
called Idle Wild area and areas which I've since learned
(33:21):
have had lots of Bigfoot reports. But when you're a kid,
you're just like, I don't whatever. So I just always
liked kind of a introvert loaner, So going out in
the woods and reading a book was always nice.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
Man.
Speaker 4 (33:39):
And I love to fish.
Speaker 3 (33:40):
I love to forage for mushrooms, so it all ties
into being in the woods. And yeah, and then things
happen when you're out there, which is awesome.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
Well, speaking speaking of foraging, there is a long history
of people who are buried picking or looking for mushrooms
or gathering in the woods, yep, countering all kinds of things.
Speaker 3 (34:07):
Yeah, and I go out huckleberry picking near Mount Saint
Helen's and every year, actually the end of August, so
it's coming up in three weeks. Me and my buddy
and his girlfriend go out for three nights and it's
(34:27):
a stone's throw from Ape Canyon, and I've heard some
weird stuff out there. Sticks breaking around the campfire fifteen
feet away, and you shine your flashlight and there's nothing there.
Speaker 4 (34:41):
I actually bought a little.
Speaker 3 (34:43):
Thermal camera because of that incident a couple of years ago.
Brought it out last year and I lost it so
so much for that.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
Before you got to see anything weird on it.
Speaker 4 (34:55):
Yeah, and didn' see anything weird.
Speaker 3 (34:57):
But I've got a couple of weird howls.
Speaker 4 (34:59):
On audio.
Speaker 3 (35:01):
There's a fellow named Dave Ellis that lives in Washington
that's reviews audio for Big but he has over thirty
thousand just crazy anomalous noises.
Speaker 4 (35:14):
Yeah, it's it's.
Speaker 3 (35:15):
Great, and I'm.
Speaker 4 (35:18):
Sure a lot of it.
Speaker 3 (35:19):
I know he's going to be in Legend Meines Science too,
which Doug high Check is going to put out probably
the end of this year. Actually he sent me this
this poster.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
Oh that's cool.
Speaker 3 (35:31):
Yeah, you said you saw this poster because Alex Petticov
was listed on it. But sorry about the reflection, guys. Anyway,
he sent me that I won some trivia a couple
of weeks ago, and I just got that frame.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
So I'm looking I was one of them. Was it
on a kickstart or egog whatever? There it was Kickstarter,
I think when they had the campaign to raise money
for the film. I jumped on that campaign.
Speaker 4 (35:54):
So nice.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
I'm looking really forward to that film.
Speaker 3 (35:57):
Me too, Me too.
Speaker 4 (35:59):
But you know, so I think about that Perry Picking.
Speaker 3 (36:04):
Disappearing, you know, David Play's furrowing one, because you know,
you hear about the Fay tradition of people disappearing berry
picky or and I go mushroom picking twice a year
at least, and so that's I was in the back
of my mind.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
If you ever look at the Albert Rossali's Humanoid Encounter books,
He's done so many volumes now where all it does
is just list like he's got historical books from I
don't know what it is, like the nineteenth century up
until the present, and you actually read through them, I'd lie.
So I had read all of them, because there's I
don't know, a dozen plus volumes, but I've read a
bunch of them. The amount of people who have encounters
(36:42):
with all kinds of weird stuff when they're foraging, berry
picking it's there's a pattern, And I think I think
that's why it's important to be cognizant of patterns beyond
just the little the little window of anomalous phenomenon that
somebody might be interested in, like if you look at
it across, if you just look at Okay, what have
(37:03):
people encountered? Which is weird berry picking? Like? Not if
you are only interested in sasquatch, maybe go oh. This
guy said he saw like a devil and this person
had an encounter with weird little men who got to
have a spaceship. And this person met some you know
I think, which was essentially a fairy. And this person
saw something like a big foot. You know, this person's vanished.
When you see those patterns, I think that's the signal
(37:24):
in the noise of anomalous phenomen What is that?
Speaker 3 (37:27):
What is that? So I have a quick story. I
heard this on another I don't know if it was
a I don't know if it was West Germer show
or someone, but they were It was right by where
I go mushroom picking out in Carbonado, Washington, which is
(37:48):
an old little it's right on the edge of mount
right near it's pretty much the bridge just gave out
last year and people way around that's old like a
ghost town down below the bridge you can hike to.
I think it's three miles. There's not much there, but
(38:10):
it's like kind of an old mining ghost town. And
this guy is just doing a little day hike and
he's a couple of miles in and he sees blood
on the trail and he's like, oh crap, what's that
And he kind of steps back and this thing comes
out of the bushes. It on a four leg, like
all fours, but it had a human face. It's almost
(38:33):
like it sounded like, I don't know if you know
what a rake is or a crawler. They call those white,
skinny weird things. Sure they can't have blood. Yeah, And
he was like, oh, ran away, And I'm thinking, okay,
that's more. I go mushroom picking every every fall. So
(38:59):
again I put that out in my back pocket and going,
now I have to worry about these these little people.
Like so, you know, people hear these stories and they go, ah,
that's a bunch of crap. You know, these people are
making it up. But why would he come on the
show and just make that up? Like what And even
if people make it up. All of these people are
(39:22):
making it up. So if one out of a hundreds
true stuff's real, that's I don't know.
Speaker 4 (39:32):
Man.
Speaker 3 (39:34):
There's stuff out there that we don't we don't know about.
And the more you know, you know that rainbow, the
more you.
Speaker 2 (39:42):
Know, Yeah, the more you know, the more paranoid press
should become. We had an interesting question from Horace Smith again,
who's a good friend of the show and professor emeritus
of Astronomy and Physics at Michigan State University. He asks,
as a kid, did read books about mysterious things?
Speaker 3 (40:03):
Not really. I don't think I read a lot as
a kid, tell you truth. I try to read a
lot now, But yeah, Horace, I don't. I can't. I
can't say.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
Was there a documentary you might have seen, or was
there something that was loaded with, you know, strangeness that.
Speaker 1 (40:24):
No.
Speaker 3 (40:25):
I love to unsolved mysteries. You know that theme song
still freaks me out with Robert Cross I think his
name was.
Speaker 4 (40:36):
Yeah. So I grew up around that time I was.
Speaker 3 (40:41):
I was born in seventy seven, so it was after
the Leonard Nimoy Show.
Speaker 2 (40:47):
In Seeing Search show. When I was a kid, my
dad would watch on I think Saturday or Sunday afternoons.
I would watch it with him so that the proch
I wore the and to be honest in search is
still probably the greatest paranormal show of all time, regardless
of what's real or what's not real, just the way
it's shot on thirty five millimeter film, the good score
(41:10):
of it, lending Nimoi is incredibly you know, powerful voice,
the way it looked, you know that the whole the
whole production quality and the weirdness of that show. Only
recently because I mean they were available on YouTube, I think,
but I only recently dropped the money to buy that
and it wasn't very expensive anywhere the full set of
dv did. To start watching again, my daughter loves nice.
(41:32):
It's mesmerizing, Like when you watch it, it takes you to
a different place, Like it's almost like you know, your
brain waves changed to a different state.
Speaker 3 (41:41):
I've only watched a couple episodes. I need to binge
something stranger Man.
Speaker 2 (41:46):
You love it, And like I said, I think it's
all on YouTube, but it's worth it's you know, it's
slightly the quality of you get the DVDs and then
not get a second hand copy on eBay or something.
It doesn't cost very much and if you just start binging,
you'll be like, this was crazy stuff. The seventies really
did have this, you know, and into the eighties it went,
but there was this weird and you say, you would
(42:08):
have got it too if you were born seventy seven
and go in the eighties, there was this There was
this weird esoteric renaissance with everything from you know, sticks
and David Bowie and you know, carp and the songs
to things like oh yeah, and it was a different time.
Speaker 3 (42:25):
It started with led Zeppelin, right kind of and Lord
of the Rings references. Yeah, yeah, no, I go back
and there's a lot of like bigfoot documentaries on YouTube
from the seventies and it's totally it's cheesy as hell
but nostalgic and I freaking love it. It's it's fun.
Speaker 1 (42:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (42:50):
They all thought, oh, well, we'll find evidence of bigfoot soon.
It'll be a year or two, we'll have it. We'll
have them bagged and science will know everything. But what
do we got nothing? And Dean you always say, I
don't think we're gonna find crap.
Speaker 2 (43:10):
And how long has it been since we've been trying.
Speaker 3 (43:13):
To well since the forties. I mean, we got footprints,
we got hair that's anomaloust some some poop, turds and tracks,
but what else. It's like, That's why I started thinking, like, Okay,
we all start off as like flesh and blood. Relic commented,
(43:37):
there it's an ape in the woods.
Speaker 4 (43:40):
Okay, well, why don't we have proof.
Speaker 3 (43:44):
Maybe we have and it's been covered up. I don't know.
But there's so many sightings. There's so much, you know,
so much stuff that people experience, whether it's big for
it or not, and we don't have like any anything.
Speaker 4 (44:04):
So that makes me wonder.
Speaker 3 (44:06):
Like, Okay, this thing whatever phenomenon, it's maybe it's multiple stuff.
It comes and goes, I think, into our reality and out.
I don't know. I don't know how that works. But
that's why I'm curious. I want to know. I don't
know how this works.
Speaker 2 (44:26):
No, I think those of us who are paying attention
all want to I want to know how it works.
We have some questions for you, which I should throw
to you. This is from Luke Duke. Hi, guys, hey, flat,
have you ever smelled a big football foraging?
Speaker 3 (44:40):
No, Luke, I think it was you in the forest.
That's my buddy Luke and my cousin's husband in Arizona.
He forges too, But I don't think I've ever.
Speaker 4 (44:51):
Smelled anything anomalous now.
Speaker 3 (44:56):
Just myself.
Speaker 2 (45:00):
Sorry, we have a question from varicks way. Did Flett
record the sounds that he captured?
Speaker 3 (45:08):
Oh, shoot, Vreck's the only sounds I caught were really
close to Ape Canyon, the Holy Ape Canyon incident by
Mount Saint Helen. So where I go huckleberry picking, it's
kind of all around that area. And shoot, that was
last that might have been last year, almost a year ago.
(45:32):
But so I was out there picking seven o'clock at night.
You know, it gets dark at nine still, so it
was light out and I heard like it sounded like
a scream, like a woman's scream, and I'm like, I
didn't have my recorder on. So the next day I
(45:53):
everyone was at camp and they didn't feel like picking
that late, and so I went out a mile out
and I had a recorder going, and I heard it
was almost the same sound around the same time, and
I hear I listened to it with my headphones on
because it's really faint and it sounds I don't know,
(46:19):
I'll have to play it for you. It's it's really faint.
I'm going to send it to Day some time and
have them put it through his spectramonomager or whatever. He
can actually visualize it instead of just listening to it.
That's really all I've got on audio. So I told
you that story on Doug's where I heard I was
(46:42):
trying to cut off some friends and hit the trail
ahead of them before they got there, and I got.
Speaker 4 (46:49):
A Okay, that's not a bird. I know my birds.
Speaker 3 (46:57):
After that, I decided to get a go pro and
I task him audio recorder, and so whenever I'm out
alone or not even alone, I have my GoPro run
into all times, just in case something runs across or
something something happens, but at least I'll have the audio.
(47:18):
It was bizarre, sounds like a damn monkey.
Speaker 4 (47:21):
Well, yeah, people have heard that.
Speaker 3 (47:27):
And Doug actually said he's got between him and Dave Ellis,
they have thirty thousand whoops and he's he's like, give
me an animal that makes that sound. Can't do it?
Maybe an owl, but it's.
Speaker 4 (47:47):
Not an owl.
Speaker 3 (47:50):
Because maybe but not the perfect who.
Speaker 4 (47:57):
Yeah, I don't.
Speaker 2 (47:59):
Know a drunk who likes finding Bigfoot.
Speaker 3 (48:03):
There you go.
Speaker 2 (48:04):
Just do you think there's something out there? I do.
Speaker 3 (48:08):
Just yeah, Bobo is out there and the bushes just
a messive with people.
Speaker 1 (48:12):
That's awesome.
Speaker 2 (48:13):
We we had a we had an interesting comment just
directing us towards some things from again. It is the Jaycats,
I believe, or Aspa his wonderful wife and you down
South Anomalies. And they know you. I know because you
comment on their wonderful show as well on the Ontario Network.
And he mentions it was Robert Stack, the actor from
The Untouchables. I mean that I think he means by
(48:34):
the Untouchables, the old television series, not the Kevan uh okay,
not the who Who's the Kevin Costa movie? Right that
did Unsolved Mystery. So that's right. It was Robert Stack.
And he says, unfortunately, the original negatives of In Search
of were destroyed, which is making but he says, uh,
(48:55):
the box set is from videotape, which is probably accurate
because the box set isn't that fantastic equality, But he
says because he has these wonderful archives in Sydney, that's
where I probably first met him when I was doing
my festivals in Sydney. Early on, I would go to
his wonderful moon MEAs on screenings that both he and
his wife Aspa would do. We have some prints and
I believe that I know, in fact, I know that
(49:17):
that he does like and they have such an incredible
collection of underground cinema and offbeat fortya. I thought. I
used to think when I was in Sydney, I've got
to have I've got to have the biggest UFO book
collection in Sydney, Like I had an incredible collection. And
I went to his moon meat on archives one day.
They've since moved, but they were in Sydney then I
was like, no, I have nowhere near the biggest collection
of UFO books. Really, Yeah, that's that's obviously. Ja Katz
(49:41):
and Aspasia was pretty phenomenal.
Speaker 3 (49:43):
Well, they said they have a bed ready for me
to go to Australia. So you should.
Speaker 2 (49:48):
The wonderful people you get on with love so much.
Speaker 3 (49:52):
We'll probably just watch crazy movies for a week and
read UFO books. Man.
Speaker 2 (49:58):
And by the way, that offer goes if you ever
want to come to Wisconsin as well?
Speaker 3 (50:02):
Yeah, same here, yep, I have a guest bet guest
bedroom so single guy.
Speaker 2 (50:09):
We can we can we can binge my old videotape
versions of In Search of at least if you go
and see Day and asp for at least I'll be
playing like the film versions and it will be like.
Speaker 3 (50:21):
That's great, I love it.
Speaker 2 (50:24):
So what what's your what's your take on the state
of the state of all of this research today? Like
I suspect you share some of my ideas. I don't
expect that you share all of them, because nobody does.
But when you when you hear about let's maybe swing
to UFOs again for a moment, when you hear of
all the type of you know, the congressional hearings and
(50:46):
these talks of disclosure and all this stuff, what what
what's your your gut instinct or your immediate kind of
response to that type of talk.
Speaker 4 (50:55):
Oh, solid smoke and mirrors.
Speaker 3 (50:58):
Yeah, we aren't going to get any thing from the
government where, you know, the more I listen, the more
I think it's it's people are just lying. They're full
of ship full of crap, and you don't know what's
a sy op and what's real. So anything that comes
out from Congress or anything like a tip, I don't
(51:23):
believe it.
Speaker 4 (51:23):
So it's hard.
Speaker 3 (51:25):
It's hard. It's like, uh, alezando, luis azando. I don't
I don't believe the word he says Steven Greer, And
you know how I feel about that guy. It's like,
I don't know, David Grush seems reputable, but who knows
that whole Jake Barber thing about. Now they're using uh
(51:48):
what do they call them?
Speaker 4 (51:49):
Like mental like mental.
Speaker 3 (51:55):
Stuff to try and call these things out of uh
with with sounds like they say, oh, we have one
hundred percent rate where we can get things to show up.
Speaker 4 (52:04):
Okay, we'll prove it.
Speaker 3 (52:06):
Show us the money, show me the money like that.
I've been waiting for the money shot for decades.
Speaker 1 (52:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (52:15):
They might just be saying close in canters too many times.
Do I love it? Yeah? But I agree with you
from before. I don't think we're any closer to anything.
I really don't feel like we're any closer to answers
to any of these questions. M hm.
Speaker 3 (52:33):
No, it's like John Keel said, Man, they just mess
with the air and then they sit back and laugh.
Whatever the phenomena is. Yeah, and it feels like it's
all tied together.
Speaker 2 (52:50):
I don't know I think it's all tied together. I
think it's I often wonder if and I've said this
on the show a few times, I'd love to hear
your taking, and please disagree with me if you do.
I often wonder if it isn't even the I'll say
the phenomenon, because by that I mean everything, So the phenomena, bigfoot, ghosts, UFOs, fairies,
(53:12):
everything else. If the meaning of it or the significance
of it isn't it itself, but it somehow is telling
us something about our reality or the nature of our reality,
and we're too busy focused on it to go what
does this tell us about us or about where we're placed,
or what the nature of where we exist is.
Speaker 3 (53:35):
Yeah, I'm with you on that, Dean, Or if you
want to go even deeper, like get Carl Jung on it,
maybe it's all being projected from us, you know, somehow,
and the collective of unconsciousness it's what do they call it,
(53:59):
you know, toplas of some sort. The more people believe
in something and that just becomes reality.
Speaker 2 (54:07):
Maybe I'm more comfortable with that interpretation that there's a
relectomony in the woods and aliens from Venus or is
that a particular or choose or stuff. At the moment,
the great Aunt Edna ghost is haunting the back, you know,
corridor of the family. Stay like at least that at
(54:27):
least we start to think of, you know, alternative ideas
that might get us closer to some kind of solution,
even if it's not the solution. It readjusts our thinking
on these things.
Speaker 4 (54:37):
Yeah, you know. I have a one ghost story.
Speaker 3 (54:42):
Was I was sixteen years old Lake Shellanne. There's a
spot called Holden Village, and it's an old mining town
that has been converted into kind of a camp, like
a Lutheran camp, and there's cabins there and there like
a group collective cafeteria. But I was walking at night
(55:08):
with the kid and he was talking. The pathways are
lit up, and I saw a lady in a white
dress I would say seventy yards eighty yards away. I
didn't think anything of it, and she disappeared. I looked
(55:30):
at the kid, he stopped talking, He looked at me
and went and we went, oh crap, that broad just disappeared.
Speaker 4 (55:40):
When we started running.
Speaker 3 (55:43):
But I always thought how weird it was in an
old mining encampment in the woods and you know, surrounded
by woods where there's some bigfoot encounters out there Lake Chlan.
You know, it's pretty deep. And I've always wondered you
hear the whole Lady in White story in the woods
(56:07):
being tied a big foot somehow, And I've heard a
few stories that just don't make sense. You know, why
would those two things be tied together. You need to
talk to Joshua Cutchin and Tim Renner about that.
Speaker 2 (56:23):
But they really are both great. We have a couple
of other questions which I think aimed at you. I
was gonna say flat, because absolutely calling you flat. Yeh, fine, man,
This is from blue collar crypto and he says, do
you think that the government actually knows a lot but
won't tell us? Or do they have no idea? So
(56:44):
I'm assuming he's talking about UFOs, but maybe he's talking
about the broader weirdness.
Speaker 3 (56:48):
That's my brother. I think, I don't know, Nick, that's
a good question. When you say the government, that's the
loaded loaded terms. So I think there are people that
that know a lot more than we're being told. And
I don't know, Man, going back the whole flesh and
blood versus not physical being, you've here. I've heard people
(57:15):
hit these things with their car or shoot them and
they'll call the cops and next thing you know, d
n R or some group shows up within minutes and
hauls the body away. It's almost like the whole Smithsonian
thing and giant skeletons. They're just like bye never. I
don't know what you're talking about. So I don't know, man,
(57:36):
But I've heard other stories where people here, like, you know,
like a Delta force go out. Even here we have
Fort Lewis right down the street from where I'm at.
I've heard five or six stories of people experiencing a
bigfoot entity on the base while they're doing training and
(57:58):
they say, don't carry live amm o. If you see
you might see something weird.
Speaker 4 (58:01):
Don't worry about it.
Speaker 3 (58:02):
And they experience something pacing them. But there was one
story where the guy there was a group and they
weren't supposed to be there and they saw they said
it was Delta force, like shoot two of these beings
and they saw them dead. One was gasping for life.
And they got scolded. They got taken to a room
(58:23):
for hours and just like you better not you better
shut your mouth, blah blah, blah, Why wouldn't he make
that up? Maybe just to tell a story. But that
makes you wonder, like, Okay, they know more. We're not
being told the full truth by whoever. And that goes
(58:45):
for everything everything.
Speaker 2 (58:50):
I think. I guess one of the things I wonder
about is how much of the full truth to these institutions. No,
we have another question for you from Luke Duke, what
would constitute refutable evidence to you, and more importantly, the
scientific community at large that a bigfoot or sasquatch like
creature currently exists short of an actual life capture. So
(59:11):
what evidence do you think we need?
Speaker 3 (59:14):
I don't know, Luke. I always said you need a body.
But even if you had a body, I don't think
that's even going to convince the community at large. That's
a great question, my man. I always wondered if I
found a bigfoot in the woods dead, what would I do?
(59:36):
If you call the authorities? That thing's going to disappear, obviously,
so I would say I'd cut off a hand or something,
or even the head, put it in my backpack, drive
to Doug Hicheck's house.
Speaker 4 (59:48):
Here, man, take this, if you leave the whole thing people.
Speaker 3 (59:53):
Have found bodies in the woods and came back the
next day and they were gone, and everything was swept
up like nothing happened. So that's a great question.
Speaker 4 (01:00:03):
I think about it all.
Speaker 3 (01:00:04):
The time, like I don't, especially with video and being
AI nowadays, you can't have anything less than a body,
and I don't even know if that will be enough.
So where do you go from there?
Speaker 2 (01:00:20):
It's a great question here, It is a good question,
and that's assuming that there's a body to be found. Yeah, yeah,
I think all of these things serve some kind of
purpose that I can hypothesize on, but I really don't know.
I think it's an ongoing narrative of supernatural experiences where
it's impossible to bring back evidence to prove your point.
(01:00:43):
And we see that in a lot of fairy faith.
We've seen a lot of et stories as well. We've
seen a lot of Bigfoot stories for sure, almost have
the evidence to bring home and show just never just
like like the fairy faith might be the greatest example.
Somebody takes gold from fairyland and when they get home
to pull it out, it's just his dust or leaves gone. Yeah,
(01:01:04):
it's gone. And isn't that the state of all of
the people have an experience which to them is is real,
perhaps more real than their everyday experiences. But when they
think they have some evidence to present it, it's either
not there, or they can't acquire the evidence to validate
to the greater their greater friend group, or they're greater
(01:01:26):
even the world in general. They just cannot validate that
experience with any evidence.
Speaker 3 (01:01:30):
Hey, Dean, I have a one quick story like that
ties into that. I was mushroom hunting a couple of
years ago, and I print that was worthy of casting.
And this one was like a beautiful print and there's
you could see the five toes. And here's the funny thing.
I'm the guy that drives around with a bag of
(01:01:53):
dental stone and a bowl like ready to cast. And
for some reason I cleaned my car out that weekend
and they didn't put it back in crap. I'll come
back the next day. I come back, the print's gone.
It had been kind of just like swept over, like
I knew exactly where it was, was in the right spot,
(01:02:16):
just gone. I don't and I hear you hear stories
of that all the time, just stuff being swept. Some
people say it looked like a hairy arm just went
but it was just not there. It blew my mind.
I don't know what to make of it either. And
it wasn't like on a trail where people go. It
(01:02:39):
was off and logging territory where no one goes. Maybe
a couple of mushroom hunters, but they aren't going to
like wipe up a print.
Speaker 4 (01:02:49):
It was super weird.
Speaker 2 (01:02:51):
That is super weird. Speaking of super weird, this was
a wonderfully wed conversation. It was such a great joy
to have you on the show with me tonight, Matt,
So thank you so much for coming on.
Speaker 3 (01:03:04):
Had a great time.
Speaker 2 (01:03:05):
And then I want to bring you back on more
regularly because I think we can just talk. You know,
I can't love you talk about the one that is
and yeah, let's let's get you back sometime soon. Man,
So thank you again.
Speaker 3 (01:03:16):
We didn't even talk about Maury, so let's.
Speaker 2 (01:03:19):
We hardly talk a little bit. But we have given
there we'll get the next time. We'll do a Mari
r M episode.
Speaker 3 (01:03:24):
Nice, Okay, sounds good.
Speaker 2 (01:03:26):
Matt, Thanks, thank you again. And until I get to
talk to you again very shortly, maybe in the even
in the green room after I stopped recording in a moment,
and until I can talk to everybody else out there,
please keep it weird.
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