Talking Weird #171 A Very Weird Thanksgiving with Dean Bertram & Special Guests

Talking Weird's host, Dr. Dean Bertram, fires up the show for a special Thanksgiving episode of Talking Weird! He is joined by four incredible and knowledgable special guests: Susy Bastille, Doug Hajicek, Professor Horace Smith, and Steve Ward.

This is a lively and passionate conversation (and sometimes debate) that ranges from Bigfoot, through Puckwudgies and Mothman, to UFOs and beyond.

It's a fun and thought provoking episode. Make sure to check it out!

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
The paranormal, UFOs, Monsters Mysteries. As you're listening to Talking
Weird and Know from a Kevin Deep in the northwards
your host Doctor.

Speaker 2 (00:14):
Ding Bertram, Happy Thanksgiving, or my fellow widos and weirdos,

(00:45):
thank you so much for joining me on your Thanksgiving night,
Or maybe you're listening or watching the show afterwards, either
on YouTube or Facebook or ex or the many audio
podcast platforms that the audio only version goes out on. Regardless, welcome,
I hope you've enjoyed your Thanksgiving. You're still enjoying it
if you're watching me live at nine pm Central, I
hope you had your fill of turkey or pumpkin pie

(01:06):
or whatever your favorites fair on Thanksgiving might be. I'm
really happy and I'm very grateful. I give thanks for
all the wonderful people who are with me tonight. I'm
also give thanks. So I got to spend Thanksgiving with
my mother who's visiting from Australia, as well as my daughter,
who unfortunately was a little unwell today. Otherwise she would
have been with her mother and her other grandparents. But

(01:28):
we all got to just spend a nice, quite day together,
the three of us. But I'm going to start bringing
my friends on one by one in the order they
popped in on. Hello, Horror Smith, Professor Emerius of Astronomy
and Physics at Michigan State University, Greetings, how are you,
my friend?

Speaker 3 (01:45):
Hello Dean doing pretty well today? So is a good
day when you have a feast?

Speaker 2 (01:53):
Had chicken pizza because I was playing on taking my
mother out to dinner and then my daughter was six,
so I was going to take her to a rest
and I ended up going to the gas station and
buying a chicken pizza for dinner. But there you go.

Speaker 3 (02:05):
Well we don't do as much as we used to,
but enough to make it worthwhile.

Speaker 4 (02:12):
Well that's good.

Speaker 2 (02:13):
Did you get some turkey in pumpkin pie?

Speaker 4 (02:15):
Oh?

Speaker 3 (02:15):
We have turkey. I have left my pie until after
the program. Oh, I was already at the point where
I was a fred I might doze off during the programs.

Speaker 2 (02:26):
So gosh, that would have been.

Speaker 3 (02:30):
That.

Speaker 2 (02:30):
That would that would not have been good. I'm going
to bring on our other guests one by one again
in the order they first hit the studio in and
you only just briefly met the one and only Steve
Ward Mothman. Extraordinary expert as well as resident of Point
Pleasant as well as High Strange as expert. He you know,
does his own show, does a bunch of different things.

(02:51):
Hi Steve, how are you?

Speaker 4 (02:52):
Great?

Speaker 5 (02:52):
To have you doing very well. Great to see you guys,
how well. Point Pleasant is a little chili. Occasionally I
will wake up here and you'll even find snow once
in a while, and I feel like I'm back in Michigan,
and that I don't like that. I mean, I don't
mind Michigan. I just would prefer in the summertime.

Speaker 2 (03:12):
You would be you would feel like you were back
in Michigan. If you were here. Today, it was like
they talk about a white Christmas. It was a white
Thanksgiving here. The snow was falling and it is freezing.
I woke up this morning and it must be one
of the cold days of the year we've had so far.
I mean, obviously you know, post January, but it was
a cold day. My chickens water was frozen solid. I

(03:33):
was skipping and slid inside in the end of my
gravel driveway where there's cements and cements. So it felt
almost like Christmas more than Thanksgiving. And I'm going to
add a mutual friend of all of ours. Actually, she's
friends of everybody here. I haven't talked to you for
so long, and I'm so grateful that Steve you mentioned
to her that we were doing this, And that's the
one and only Susie for Steel.

Speaker 5 (03:54):
Hi everyone, Hill.

Speaker 6 (03:57):
It's actually nice and warm in Connecticut. Yes, today I
went for a nice walk and just a T shirt.

Speaker 4 (04:03):
Wow.

Speaker 5 (04:04):
Wow?

Speaker 7 (04:05):
Is sixty degrees in November?

Speaker 5 (04:11):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (04:11):
Wow?

Speaker 2 (04:12):
Did you get up to anything exciting today for Thanksgiving?

Speaker 6 (04:15):
Well, we have a new kitten in the house, so
that has been keeping my hands full. My older cat
and her just discovered that they could play. So now
my home is a racetrack. So I apologize for any
background noise you might hear.

Speaker 2 (04:34):
That's that's fun. I would have just assumed it was
the spooks and spots of the cities at this time
of yeth from Halloween all the way through Christmas and
all kinds of strangings. How's how's a Puckwaji research going
to Susy good.

Speaker 6 (04:46):
I got out a lot this summer, a lot of
different sites. I still can't say I've had my own encounter,
but I took someone out with me one day and
they got rocks thrown at them, which is you know,
typical pucklogy.

Speaker 2 (05:02):
Behavior and sasquatch behavior. But who knows it could be
here mightn't be that big a difference between all of
these things. Sometimes I think and even Steve do a
show together sometimes at the moments too.

Speaker 4 (05:14):
Is that right?

Speaker 5 (05:17):
A little bit with Susan's a co host and also
Andy Mercer from across the ocean. He's actually the producer
and it's It's Paranormal UK Radio and he's one of
the principles that runs that uh website that that the
radio show.

Speaker 2 (05:34):
Excellent And is it weekly or bi weekly or money used.

Speaker 5 (05:38):
To be uh every I used to love to say
close out and say I'll see you again in a fortnight.
Well it's not every every other week, it's uh, it's
every time I get my uh my, took us in
gear the show going.

Speaker 2 (05:53):
You should use the injured code sign out I'll see
you in time.

Speaker 5 (05:58):
Yeah, yeah, there you go.

Speaker 2 (06:01):
That would be a pevy one. What about you, Harras,
what's happening in the world of I know you still
write regularly astronomy books, and you write a lovecraft book,
and you've written Civil war memoir you've written books, You've
written all kinds of things. What are you working on?

Speaker 3 (06:16):
Well? Most recently, aside from a small article on HP
Lovecraft's interest in meteorology, which may or may not get published,
I've submitted it. I've been looking into the history of telescopes,
two particular telescopes, trying to track down the story of

(06:41):
a woman in nineteenth century Portland, Maine, forgotten by history
as far as I can tell, who was very interested
in astronomy, had her own observatory and that night time
would hold astronomical soares for the public. And I think

(07:03):
we tracked down over almost two centuries her telescope that
she used, and that send it up out in California
in some modern person's hands that survived anyway. I was
just gonna say it made me think that why don't

(07:23):
we we have more? Do we not have more stories
of haunted observatories? You think people sitting out in the dark,
particularly in the old days, before you sat in the
room and looked at a computer, you're out with the dark,
with the sky, maybe you should see it would seem

(07:44):
to be the perfect place to hear or see a
ghost creeping up behind you. Your eye is fixed to
the telescope. If you're taking a photograph in the old days,
you couldn't take your eye off the guiding eyepiece to
turn around and see who's stepping behind you. But I
know a very few such There are a few such stories,

(08:06):
but not many. There may be wonder whether the the
scientific event of many of the observers was mentally chasing
away the faye from the area. I don't know, I'm
making it unpleasant to them, surrounded by the by the
steel of the dome and the telescope.

Speaker 2 (08:29):
That's a that's a good point. I wonder if it's
the science or if it's there the people, if they're themselves,
they might somebody else who might have heard a spooky
noise might have been more likely to put it within
the context of a haunting. Well, perhaps they would not
allow themselves to that could must just be the wind
or you know, somebody else. Instead of saying that's the wind,
they might have said, there's an old castle there, and

(08:50):
that must be the ghost woman.

Speaker 3 (08:52):
There is an old observatory in Ireland said to be haunted,
and it's not a noisy ghost. It's supposed to be
a rather dignified gentleman. It was this checking on how
things are going, but makes people feel uncomfortable that they're
being watched from time to time, and Ireland seems quite

(09:17):
the appropriate place for an observatory ghost.

Speaker 2 (09:21):
Indeed it does. Island. I'm always fascinated with all of
the Irish law, whether it's the law of the dead
or the fay, or the various entities, the pokah, you know,
whatever else the prows the land late at night. But
it's all probably all this phenomenon, like I was saying
to Susi a minute ago, is probably in some way,
I suspect interconnected. Do you have any spooky stories for us, Steve,

(09:43):
for this Thanksgiving? Is there any? Is there anything in
Point Pleasant around the Thanksgiving date? For example, which is
welling a.

Speaker 5 (09:51):
Couple of weeks ago was the November fifteenth, was the
fifty ninth anniversary of that original major sighting where the
Garuda the mothman chased the two couples out of the
what they call the T and T area on Route
sixty two into Point Pleasant. And so I just sometimes
I go out there at the witching hour, almost the

(10:13):
witching hour eleven pm is about the time they saw
this thing back fifty nine years ago, and when they
were there, I guess it was a clear sky, nice starfield.
I went out there and parked on the very same
dirt road where they encountered this thing. And by the way,
I met last summer, I met Roger Scarberry in person.

(10:36):
The guy who was driving the car that night. He
gave Jeff Wansley, who runs the Mothband Museum and who
grew up there and my employer, by the way, worked
at the Mothbam Museum part time. He gave him a
full length interview which will be in Jeff's next book.
But I went out there just for the heck of it.
It was a perfect night because had a little bit

(10:56):
of rain, plenty of thunder and lightning, and I was
sitting there, I thought I might get some company out there,
and I did look around to make sure that nobody
was just just parked out there ready to scare the
hell out of me, because I was very open about
the fact that I was going to be there. So
that was that was just kind of fun. Now, I

(11:17):
had some people that the guys, some Joe and Ron
from Wild and Weird West Virginia, said if they'd known
i'd been out there, they would have been there, but
they said, uh, they'll see They'll see me next year there.
It'll be the sixtieth anniversary, so I expect to have
a lot of company.

Speaker 2 (11:33):
Oh wow, that's that's Uh. That must be spooky sitting
out in that area all alone. Why Keel would have
all those years ago watching the skies and watching the
woodline and everything else, hoping to have something manifest? Do
you hope to see something near there as a part
of you.

Speaker 5 (11:50):
I didn't. Well, you know, I told people I was
wearing adult diapers just in case. You've got to be prepared.
But no, I didn't really expect to, uh, to see
any thing on the anniversary. Nowadays, it's right next to
the fairgrounds and it's across from the farm Museum, and
that's where we line up on Saturday night at the

(12:11):
Mothmand Festival to take people on tours through the dreaded
T and T area, guaranteed flyover of the Mothman. The
men in black try to turn you away, and there's
a giant spiderwebs and a few cobble together creatures with
eyes lit up by indicator lights. So that I put
up ahead of time, so it's a good time, so

(12:32):
it's not quite as desolate as it used to be.

Speaker 3 (12:34):
You know.

Speaker 5 (12:35):
I went down there my first time to Point Pleasant
after I read John Keel's book in seventy five. In
nineteen seventy seven, I was visiting some friends in Orchard Park,
which is south of Buffalo, so I took an extra
day off. I drove down Sunday night blind into twenty Pleasant,
armed with my Mothman Prophecy's book and my map of

(12:56):
the T and T area. Found the Low Hotel by happenstance,
and the next morning I went out there. Back then
you could drive around the T and T area. Now
a lot of it's kind of blocked off. But I
have no idea where I was back at that time.
I just drove around for a while, and I wouldn't
I wouldn't ask anybody about the Mothman because it was

(13:17):
only ten years after the bridge tragedy, and while I
don't believe there was any direct connection that happened in
the same space and time, so I didn't want to
dredge up any bad memories. But it was the old
North power Plant was still standing and that's where they
saw this thing shuffle into off the road when they
first saw it there.

Speaker 2 (13:37):
There must have been a lot less Mothman tourism too
when you first went there, because that obviously pre long
predates the film, long predates your Man festival, the statue,
all of these things. So yeah, I wonder what kind
of reception you would have got if you'd started asking
random people in Dina's and gas stations about the moth Man.
I suspect not a fantastic one, no.

Speaker 5 (13:57):
But I did get a reception. When I was uh
pulled up in my green v W, had my thirty
five millimeter Manulta camera was walking toward the Old Norse
power Plant. Somebody, a gentleman in coveralls and a hard hat,
met me halfway and wondered what was I doing out there?
So I tried to be cool. I didn't say I

(14:18):
was interested in the Mothman, because the locals used to
call it the bird. So I said, well, you know,
I'd heard the stories about the bird and so forth.
And the guy looks at me, he rolls his eyes
and says, yeah, I remember. But he was very cool.
He let me take pictures, he let me go into
the power plant, He just wanted to make sure I

(14:38):
didn't kill myself because it was kind of a treacherous place.
A lot of kids had been in there climbing on
the walkways and so forth, and had fallen and hurt
himself and so forth. So he was just looking out
for me.

Speaker 2 (14:53):
I love how when both you and Susie like behind you.
This cat's constantly attacking that mouth man. I shouldn't even said,
I have to know you have cats. I'm assuming it
list it's the Mothmatu So and Susie's eyes occasionally dotting
around watching the cats cats.

Speaker 5 (15:09):
Dean, Susie and I were on another show once, Uh
kind of blocked off like this, and my little black cat,
Lucky crawled over my shoulder and went and so and
then as soon as he disappeared, Susie's cat showed up
almostly looked looked like they were going from from portal
to portal.

Speaker 7 (15:30):
Both black cats too.

Speaker 5 (15:32):
Yes, that's right.

Speaker 7 (15:33):
That was on a Mothman panel with along with.

Speaker 5 (15:38):
With A Richard Haddam that wrote the screenplay for the
Mothman Prophecies.

Speaker 2 (15:43):
Wow, when did you guys do that?

Speaker 5 (15:46):
Not too long ago? Uh? You know, I got to
introduce Richard HadAM at the Mothman Festival. He he it's
his first time there. He'd been wanting to go forever.
He lives in California. Uh. He told, you know, he
was on my show with Susie before too. He told
about how he, you know, developed a screenplay, and he

(16:08):
told about the time John Keel came to visit him
in California and the way his kids, his kids were
asking him all kinds of strange questions, the way kids
will do. It was a great story.

Speaker 2 (16:19):
Gosha, I missed Kill like I think, you know. I
got to meet him briefly, and he was quite cranky
at that stage, but still a fascinating human being. I
recently visited Doug Skinner for the documentary I'm Making Great
with my girlfriend and I went and Brian Emrick, one
of the producers of the film, went, and Doug still
has a considerable amount of Kill's papers because Doug was

(16:43):
Doug along with another friend where I guess the people
responsible for taking care of Kill later life and became
I think the executors of his estate. So he has
an awful lot of fascinating Kill material, but just to
hold it and to look at it was staggering, including
a girl friend book like Keill kept a girlfriend book
with a list of world.

Speaker 7 (17:04):
As girls, like a Little Black book.

Speaker 2 (17:06):
Yeah, kind of like I guess, more of a history
for himself with just like the girls. You see, some
of the personal materials of John's was and I think
he had screenplays John had written, and all kinds of
all kinds of materials of books John had written that
people don't know I think in the broader space were

(17:26):
written by John because he had used pseudo pseudonyms for
for for various kind of I guess softcore adult type
books and other things which which which just didn't have
Kill's name on. So that was That's a wonderful memory.
I got to do that, SUSI tell me, tell me.
Do you know are there any strange there's so much

(17:47):
history where you are in Connecticut or that kind of area.
Any weird Thanksgiving tales or historical legends around the period
part of the world.

Speaker 6 (17:54):
Uh, well, my family was that the first Thanksgiving, and
we know in my families weird.

Speaker 7 (18:02):
But do you guys know what.

Speaker 6 (18:04):
Actually happened at the feast as opposed to the tale
were told in school?

Speaker 5 (18:14):
You mean the cartoon I watched it.

Speaker 6 (18:18):
Very rarely is when it's about colonial history. But what
had happened was they had not like planned to have
a feast the Pilgrims, and it was the poconokd tribe.
The Pilgrims had gotten drunk and they started shooting their
guns and Massasoya, who was the SHM of the Poconoka,

(18:44):
thought that another tribe was attacking them, so they decided
to go over and help them. Well, they got over
there and they realized, oh, they're not being attacked, they're
just drunk idiots. But you know everyone at that point,
I was feeling pretty good, and they said, come on

(19:04):
and eat with us, have something to drink, and that
that's how it started.

Speaker 3 (19:09):
Well, Maya, some of Maya ancestors would have been dining
with yours then that on that.

Speaker 5 (19:16):
Occasion, Oh very good.

Speaker 3 (19:21):
Whether your ancestor was pulling mine out from under the table,
I don't know, but it could have been. Well through
November and not Thanksgiving exactly, but there were French troops
arriving in Lebanon right and they also Rauschimbau's troops marched

(19:44):
back through Windham was reminded of that in November seventeen
eighty two on the Return from Yorktown was reminded by
the Ken Burns movie we just watched, and there are
stories about them. As I recall, is that where.

Speaker 7 (20:00):
That that French soldier was executed.

Speaker 3 (20:03):
This story The story goes that one of the soldiers
in Lebanon, this is a troop of the was it
the Duke de Zune or something like that was in
charge of the Lebanon troops. The story goes that several
of them deserted one time to go have a good
time or something and were caught, and three years or

(20:27):
so were brought back and one of them was executed
as an example to the others. And they might have
wanted to get away because some of the French officers
said that Lebanon was like Siberia in the winter.

Speaker 7 (20:44):
And.

Speaker 8 (20:46):
There was by the way, and I hear from time
to time that there are stories about that executed soldier
running around the Lebanon Green or something.

Speaker 3 (21:02):
But if not being a person from Lebanon, being from
Willemantick and looking down at that was Lebanon people, I
don't know what the truth is of that matter.

Speaker 2 (21:14):
How they got stories there about that Susan's you know there.

Speaker 7 (21:17):
Ghost stories about everything. It's a very historical town.

Speaker 6 (21:22):
And here we have Alistair Pawley joining us speaking of
black Cat where that soldier was executed. There is actually
a sign, like a historical sign there, and that is
right next to the house my grandmother grew up in,
which if you've heard me tell the stories of the

(21:45):
reoccurring nightmares I had about my great grandmother, it is
right next to it. It was also during the Revolutionary War.
It was kind of a hot spot.

Speaker 7 (22:00):
Uh.

Speaker 6 (22:01):
A lot of things went down there.

Speaker 7 (22:04):
It was the War office was there.

Speaker 6 (22:05):
It was kind of like their home central and George
Washington stayed there, so there there's even tales of George
Washington's ghost, which I am not sure how that works.
He was in so many places. He did not die there,
He just stayed there once in a while. He kept
a horse there. I would believe the horse haunting the town.

(22:32):
Before George Washington himself.

Speaker 3 (22:37):
Lebanon where she grew up. Governor Trumbull of Connecticut had
his home there, which is why it was visited by
so many important people. And uh, I was. I was
very impressed, though I didn't admit it to people from Lebanon.
But I was very impressed to go out there and
see the Big Green, which is much larger than the

(22:59):
tip called New England Town Green and surrounded by history.
The War Office, colonial houses, the.

Speaker 7 (23:08):
Beaumont House is my favorite.

Speaker 3 (23:11):
Ah yeah, I was familiar with them all at the time,
although they weren't all as fixed up as they are today.
But it was actually parts of Lebanon were a little
bit more run down at the time. That seemed the
perfect place for relics of the past to still be

(23:32):
surrounding us and and old Victorian houses. Even it seemed
to be the perfect place for ghosts to appear, but
alas they never appeared for me. I went hunting around
looking over the Green, but no French soldier grabbed me

(23:55):
by the year and sent me back home. It was
still a fun.

Speaker 2 (24:01):
We have the wonderful Doug Hicheck, who's also the head
of the Untold Radio Network, producer of Monster Quest, which
is a favorite of everybody's. Welcome Doug, thanks so much
for dropping in.

Speaker 4 (24:12):
How is everybody on this Thanksgiving Eve? I'm good.

Speaker 2 (24:17):
I hope you don't. I don't know if you've met
these people. I'll do a quick intro have not as
far as Brady Bunch Squares go. If you're looking at screen,
to Doug's right is or to our right. Actually the
Doug's left is Horace Smith, who's Professor Emeritus of Astronomy
and Physics at Michigan State University and a very good
friend of the show. But between below and between me

(24:40):
and Doug is Susie Bastiele. He is also known as
the Packwadjy Whisperer, fascinating researcher into authors Puckwadgy Law and
far more, and she co hosts a show with the
one and only Steve Ward, who is below Doug. And
Steve's an expert on the Mothman and he works at
the Mothman Museum. He runs his own podcasts. He's written

(25:02):
a number of books and the like fascinating human beings.
So I'm glad you're here with me.

Speaker 4 (25:07):
Yeah, I've actually I know Steve is Excuse me, I
just haven't met and I know who Horace is, and
I have not met Susie, So but any odds honored
to meet you guys.

Speaker 2 (25:21):
They what have you been up to?

Speaker 4 (25:22):
Doug? Ah, I just did the normal We went to
we were lucky. We went over to Evet's sisters today
and I had a great Thanksgiving dinner. It was just wonderful.
We didn't have to do one thing, so we just
came on and we're chilling.

Speaker 2 (25:40):
So gosh. We talked a little bit when you invited
me last night to pop in on the other on
tod show. But maybe people on this channel would like
to know too, what's happening with your latest documentary, Legend
Meat Science too, because I know there's a lot of
anticipation about it. Maybe that's something you could talk about.

Speaker 4 (26:01):
Yeah, we are right now in a stage where we're
probably seventies done filming. We really have one big shoot,
yes yet to do, but we're waiting on the forensics
and that's been just like pulling teeth between the funding
that you have to get because it's very expensive to

(26:22):
do what we're doing, upwards of you know, ten to
twenty thousand per sample to get them tested to get
any kind of you know, reasonable results back. But I
did get a call recently from a professor who said
one of the samples came back really promising, So that

(26:45):
was nice. It's all they would tell me.

Speaker 2 (26:49):
That's it and that's that's the people in Martin. I
know most of our our listeners and viewers probably do.
But it's a you'll follow up documentary about bigfoot, right,
and you've been working on it for some time. The
first film was a massive critical, a massive success, and
people have anxiously awaited this film for some time. Is

(27:12):
there anything you can tell us about other than the
evidence you're waiting on it? Are there any hints you
can give us about mom?

Speaker 4 (27:19):
I don't know. It's such a huge dark. It's going
to be three hours, and we're contemplating whether we want
to release three parts or just you know, one big
three hour dark. But it's I think it's going to
be a huge bar raiser, just like I think Legimi

(27:39):
and Science One was a good bar raiser. There's a
lot of people I've met, including Jeff Michaels, who said
that was the dark that got me interested in the topic.

Speaker 2 (27:51):
Yeah, that's a I think it's one of the best
place bigfoot docs out there. It's something which I hear
people talk about all the time. What else is going
on to Oh?

Speaker 4 (28:01):
Not a whole lot. Really fascinated with your work, Steve,
do you work with Lawn Strickler.

Speaker 5 (28:10):
Steve No, no, I actually have never met the gentleman.

Speaker 4 (28:13):
Oh really okay, but you know me, Andi Vett had
a I think I'm pretty sure it was some type
of mothman. Sighting back a number of years ago while
we were driving home totally unexpected from up northern Minnesota,
and we're driving down thirty five W the freeway and

(28:36):
we see in this beautiful, you know, full moon, night
clear sky, we see what looks like a wide, shiny
thing in the sky near the moon and without what
you know, what is that? It's some UFO what are
we looking at? And then it drops straight down. We
just literally saw this thing drop down to the freeway

(28:57):
level and then head right towards mike car, and it
just kept cambing out my car window. It got closer
and closer, and finally events screamed and duct and then
I waited as long as I could before I thought
it was coming through the windshield and I ducked. But
I got a really good look at this thing, and

(29:17):
and she got a good look too, to see, you know,
how wide the wings were, and we were looking at
something that was you know, the wings were as wide
as the freeway lanes two lanes of the freeway, and
it didn't flap its wings. It defied physics because the
way it had its wings open when it dropped straight
down could not be done physically. You know, it didn't was.

Speaker 3 (29:41):
There any wind, noise, noise, there.

Speaker 4 (29:44):
Was nothing, no I mean it it well, it was
far enough away when it dropped because I'm driving seventy
miles an hour towards it, and we saw this shiny thing.
It was just kind of reflecting light, dropped straight dow
a spider on a web, you know, they'll drop on
a web and then just kind of halt instantly. That's

(30:06):
what it did. And I mean it divided physics. And
that was a kind of an eye opening moment for me.
And I was actually producing Monster Quest at the time,
and I thought, you never had agreed not to tell
anybody about this, Like nobody except I did call my

(30:26):
executive producer at History Channel and I said, you know
that mothman thing you want me to do, which I
didn't want to do because I felt there was no
physical evidence. You know what, am I going to test everything?
A Monster Quest was kind of science, you know science
e we tested things and I called him and I said,

(30:46):
I'll do it. So I was convinced at that point
that obviously what we saw was related.

Speaker 2 (30:54):
Do you do you think, because I know you're very
open to all kinds of different types of bigfoot in
the like, but do you think that well bigfoot, I
think you lean to perhaps a physical explanation or a
physical interpretation. Obviously a signed space.

Speaker 4 (31:11):
Yeah, of course. But I think that all things are physical.
It doesn't mean that they don't even going to another
dimension or god knows what you think when it's here,
it's physical.

Speaker 2 (31:22):
Do you think the mothman, for example, the entity you saw,
which you said resembles perhaps a mothman type encounter, you
think that might be a different order of nature than
a big foot or do you think they're in the same.

Speaker 4 (31:34):
Me have been in the same thing, because I do
think if it would have hit our windshield, it would
have gone through it and were killed us. You know,
it's sure look physical when we you know, when we're
looking at it, you know, and I get to see
this thing in the face, and all I remember is
kind of a gargoyle type humanoid face. That's what I remember.

(31:55):
And I know the mothman doesn't really resemble that. But
it seems to reason stumbled some of these winged unoids
that people report.

Speaker 3 (32:04):
You know, we would no sound at all when it
went actually went by you.

Speaker 4 (32:10):
No, I didn't hear anything. No, I mean I mean
a car with the windows up and yeah, your thing,
no whistling, no sounds, nothing is.

Speaker 2 (32:22):
How do you think that's state that Doug's Doug's experience
or encounterfeits in with other Mothman reports that you've looked at.

Speaker 5 (32:31):
It sounds like some of the characteristics of what people
were reporting. I think we do have to be a
little bit careful. Of people have seen and reported a
lot of winged entities, winged humanoids, maybe even apparitions. I
wouldn't categorize them all as the mothman per se. I
mean you had the Wisconsin man bat I think in
the early two thousands, you had the Houston batman, and

(32:54):
I think in the fifties it looked like some guy
wearing a suit. I mean, I don't know how to
explain that, but a lot of people. There's only one
person that said that I know of, that said that
they saw the face, and that was Connie Carpenter. She
was eighteen when she was driving past the Mason County
golf Course, and this is just a few days after
the sightings opened up, and she saw this thing take

(33:16):
off straight up like a helicopter. Like Doug said that
the wings didn't always flap when the people. Sometimes they did,
but sometimes it just took off straight like a helicopter,
wings not moving. She saw the red eyes flew over
her car. She's one of the ones that Keeel when
he came down in early December and they gathered all
these people together. She's one of the ones he believed

(33:39):
right away because she had a case of conjunctive itis.
Although she did not see a strange light or a UFO,
she saw a winged creature or apparition, you know. And
the thing about the mothband people, while generally they reported
the same thing roughly humanoid, six seven foot tall, red

(34:01):
glowing eyes ten foot wingspan, the behavior wasn't always the same.
Kiel thought it had left some kind of footprints by
the old Norse power plant. A lot of people that
experienced it had an outbreak of poltergeist phenomena. Kiel even
got a couple reports of people that saw it in
close proximity where it seemed to be making some kind

(34:23):
of a mechanical or humming noise. There's another couple that
said they saw it manifest in their bedroom, the Evangelical Christians.
They were going off to a far away country to
be missionaries, and they had not read the news, and
this thing classic mothmand seemed to manifest in their bedroom

(34:48):
and then dissipate. It wasn't until they came back years
later and they saw the old newspapers that they thought
that's what they saw. Other people think that maybe they
just saw some other kind of apparition that wasn't directly connected,
even though it was all happening at the same time.
So it's just it's very difficult to I mean, I've
talked to several of the original witnesses. They really did

(35:10):
experiencing experience something extraordinary, but I don't know, really don't
know what it was. And John Keel was never sure.
You know, he used the term alter terrestrial to kind
of get away from the et idea, but he would
use altraterrestrial interchangeably with elemental, which I thought was very interesting.

Speaker 4 (35:32):
Yeah, would I do know? Steve did not recognize it
did not look like the creature behind you did never
had eyes, didn't have a high ears. It had ears
that seemed a little pointed, but they were very much
on the side of it.

Speaker 5 (35:46):
I have to full disclosure. This behind me my studio
background is a shower curtain with a very very stylized
version of the model the Bosman was. If you look
at the original sketches at the scarberrys the Malaha, it
just kind of looks like an oversized owl. The eyes

(36:06):
were kind of sunken down. So uh uh. I think
maybe the mothsman behind me is either I don't know
if he's cooler or sillier, but he's not not quite
the Mothman.

Speaker 4 (36:17):
Well, all I know is I saw something that divide physics,
and you get to realize we saw it in the
headlights of my car. I was driving a two thousand
and eight Corvette that I had just gotten and this
thing was lit up like day in my bright you know,
hid headlights, and it was low. I mean it was

(36:40):
wind chill level as it came towards us, so it was.

Speaker 3 (36:44):
So it's not self luminous. It was something.

Speaker 4 (36:47):
No, it's yeah, it had shiny, kind of shiny in
like wings, so I would put it more in the
bat category.

Speaker 5 (36:56):
You know, Doug, I don't ever see anything. I'm just
a guy that that hears stories from people that do.

Speaker 2 (37:04):
I think Susie had a question that Diagora points out.

Speaker 6 (37:07):
Yeah, so other kind of cryptid or entities have I
want to call it like regional differences, like I'm thinking
little people like here we have puck Wedgies. You know,
Central America they have dwen Day's and with Bigfoot you
have you know, the skunk ape in Florida and the
Yetti so but we always all winged humanoids.

Speaker 7 (37:31):
We always want to call mockman.

Speaker 6 (37:33):
But maybe you know, I think we need some some
new names for them, because you do seem to have
like groupings of different sightings of wind humanoids.

Speaker 4 (37:46):
I think, you know, a winged humanoid is probably our
best description. I do know that it caused Evet a
ton of drama to this day. She will not drive
anywhere with me. If we're going to have to go
through the woods at night. It doesn't even matter if
it's on the freeway, she won't go. And I have
tried everything, and she just well, she asked to make

(38:09):
sure that we're like leave before it gets dark. I
mean it was traumatic.

Speaker 5 (38:15):
Well, you know, if Keel was onto something, if these
things are manifesting from some source or other dimension or
or you know, transmographications of energy, perhaps that many of
these things are coming from the same source, but they
may manifest in different ways. And also he talked about confabulation.

(38:36):
Sometimes people are having experiences that they if somebody, if
a third party could be outside looking in, they may
not see the same thing going on. They may not
even see anything, but the person might be experiencing. He
thought some of these things were illusory but not necessarily hallucinations,

(38:57):
so it's very difficult to get a hold on what's
really going on.

Speaker 4 (39:01):
Well, I can tell you thank God that Eve was there,
because I would think I was crazy if that if
she wouldn't have been there, because we definitely compared stories
and they're definitely exact.

Speaker 2 (39:13):
But there. Did you have any physical effects? I know
Stay before was talking about people who experienced mouff Man
had physical effects. Did you have anything like that or.

Speaker 4 (39:23):
Uh No, we didn't have any physical effects. I ended
up I did the Monster Quest episode on Wayne Humanoids
found another U two guys. I think it was a
father and son that had the same thing happen in Wanona,
where it dived at their car, came towards their windshield.

(39:43):
Then they pulled over and they said they were, you know,
either both vomiting.

Speaker 5 (39:48):
That was in Wisconsin, right, yeah, right, well on right
across the cross, had just across a cross, you had
God forre you. I investigated that and she said the
same thing. They got exxtremely ill afterwards. It was just
kind of I think a big ugly bat right that
kind of brushed across the I mean, I mean it
was huge, but it wasn't. It wasn't a classic mothman.

Speaker 4 (40:09):
Yeah, I don't think we're dealing with that, uh, you know,
a moth man, but for lack of better description, something
that obviously can define lots of lots of physics and
dead wings. And it was big and it was I
can't even fathom how big it was.

Speaker 5 (40:28):
May I ask Courus a quick question. Sure of course,
I was checking you out on Facebook. You live in
East Lansing, I do. Indeed, is the Curious Bookshop still there?

Speaker 3 (40:40):
It is? Oh, that's fantastic, it is there. Ray Walsh
is getting pretty old. This is a used bookstore in
uh in East Lansing. With delightful things to find from
time to time in.

Speaker 5 (40:56):
It I have spent. I used to drive there. I
used to have to keep putting quarters in the parking meter,
so I didn't get a ticket, but I would. He
would let me go downstairs to check out his pulp magazines,
and you know, he would just have all kinds of
great obscure stuff. A lot of my books my collection
came from the Curious Bookshop thanks to Ray Wilsh.

Speaker 2 (41:17):
Did you get some of your amazing stories collection from there?

Speaker 5 (41:21):
I think I think I got more of those. Just
tell you a brief story here. There used to be
a great two story, dirty second hand bookstore in ham Trammick, Michigan.
Ham Trammic back then was a predominantly Polish. It was
a captive suburb in Detroit, and oh man, I used

(41:42):
to I didn't have I wasn't making much money, but
I would take whatever I had and I would go
there on the weekends and I get permission to go
upstairs where he had rows and rows of pulp magazines,
old science fiction. He had some of the hero pulps.
I found some original Ray Bradbury stories in some of them,

(42:02):
and even an original Conen story from a Weird Tales
from nineteen thirty five. Uh, just oh, man, I was
in just in seventh Heaven. Once in a while you'd
find maybe a digest Doc Savage or Shadow, and so
I got many of my amazing stories came from there.

Speaker 2 (42:20):
Now, Doc, I was going to ask you, is this
what the thing you look like? It looked that? Did
it look like that at all? That's the British version
of the Muffmann Prophecies and your description with the Gygile
type face and the little eyes man.

Speaker 4 (42:33):
Yeah, that's I can't see it real good. But the
wings sure look right, except the wings were more you
know when we saw it, they were just straight out,
but you could see where they had in the bat,
you know, the joints of it like a bat, where
they were kind of angled up and definitely had skin
stretched on its wings. Yeah. That's that's amazing, A.

Speaker 2 (42:55):
Very godgily picture.

Speaker 4 (42:57):
Where can I read that article? That was?

Speaker 2 (43:00):
That's just the English copy of the Mothman Prophecies and
fun away when I was a kid before I and
John Keile obviously probably altered the direction of my life,
as I've talked about a number of times, but I
was at a friend's house at a sleepover when I
was maybe at ten or eleven, and for some reason
he had that book on his bookshelf. I think he
probably had gotten from a parent or something. I don't

(43:21):
think he'd and I remember just seeing it and being
I never read it, and being fascinated by the image.
And years later, when I was visiting America and staying
with people in Atlanta in my early twenties, that's when
I first found a copy of The Mothman Prophecies and
I always thought, that looks like that book I saw
all those years ago, and sure enough it was the book.
And then later when I got multiple copies of The

(43:43):
Mothman Prophecies, I worked out that was that book I
saw all years ago, so it had a kind of
a presence encounter with the book, you know, a decade
before it.

Speaker 4 (43:51):
I wonder why the description of the physical description change
for the English edition.

Speaker 5 (43:58):
I think it's just a very style version. I don't
think they had. It doesn't resemble what people were seeing
at all. In fact, there's been a reprint, and I'm
not sure it's legitimate. It's it's from they reprinted the
nineteen ninety one edition of The Mothman Prophecies. The only

(44:19):
difference in the book is that the afterward is different.
The original cover was the great Frank Frazetta cover with
the very again another stylized version of mothmam. But what
they did they reprinted it titled it the Year of
the Garuda, which was the original title John Keel wanted.
Because the editor said, Nope, we're not going to do that.

(44:40):
We'll do the Mothmaan Prophecies. And then they took the
image from the UK version, but then changed the face
of the creature a little bit. They just kind of
tweaked it. So but that's how that's how that happened.

Speaker 2 (44:54):
That's statue in point pleasant's kind of based on the
Frizetta It does.

Speaker 5 (44:59):
Yeah, it has to be. I know that Bob Roach,
who did the statue, interviewed a lot of people. But
when you look at when you compare the two images
together that you can see the influence there.

Speaker 2 (45:10):
I think, yeah, it's funny. How art then it might
be different to the original experience, But then perhaps the
art affects people's later interpretations of their own experiences. I think, well, you.

Speaker 5 (45:25):
Know, there are many many Mothman T shirts and you
can't you just can't have the same image on every
T shirt or you're just not going to move them.

Speaker 2 (45:34):
That's a good point. So does anybody have any It's
funny because Halloween's loaded with obviously, you know, monster stories
and ghost stories and they like And Christmas was traditionally
a time, at least in the UK where ghost stories
were a part of the season, and we tend to
have forgotten that. But obviously a Christmas Carol is a
classic example of how the importance of ghost stories at

(45:55):
Christmas used to be a part of the season. I'm
not a where as somebody who's a relatively new import
to the United States. I'm unaware of any creepy Thanksgiving
stories or traditions.

Speaker 4 (46:07):
Are there any?

Speaker 3 (46:10):
I don't remember any. But there was between Thanksgiving time,
well before the modern Thanksgiving time, but between that time
of year before Christmas, in the year seventeen nineteen, there
was alarm and excitement in New England. And it's a

(46:36):
story having to do with Cotton Mather, not everyone's favorite Puritan.
And a night came in December eleventh in the old calendar,
one of the longest nights of the year the night
fell and the lights began to appear all over the

(46:56):
sky over Boston, New England. That frightened people, the flashing lights.
The people in the sawmills said they took on the
lights too, kind of bloody and threatening, ominous glow, and
they were quite alarmed. And nobody knew that well, many

(47:20):
people didn't know what it was. And Cotton Mather was
one of two people who tried to explain what had
been seen in the days following the event, and both
he and the alternative fellow agreed it was the Northern
Lights and they had not been seen in New England

(47:41):
much before because this was the end of the Manda Minimum,
a long spell when the Northern lights were largely absent
because solar activity had been very quiet, and were I
don't know if you all saw I think Dean did
the Northern lights when they appeared earlier in the month.

(48:04):
Mm hmm, if you were, if they were clear, they were.
They were quite spectacular and you can see how auris
inspiring they could be, but also a frightening they could
be if you were unfamiliar with it. And uh the
Cotton Mather wrote a book entitled A Voice from Heaven uh,

(48:25):
indicating that even though the what it had been seen
was a natural phenomenon, it could still have a supernatural meaning,
a religious meaning in his interpretation. And after that, there
are always have been coming back to New England uh,
and they still inspire awe, but they are not They

(48:47):
don't frighten people as much as they did on that
first occasion. It shows that things that are understood at
the time. I think that was all your old friend
Jason's view. Things that might have a a natural explanation
in one sense, but the one that's totally misunderstood at
the time can be very frightening to people. And that's

(49:10):
why I was asking the question about the Mofman, just
to see if it seemed at all like it was
something that was explainable with modern physics. And I think
the answer was no, it didn't behave as we would
expect ordinary physical objects to behave, So that may has
to fall into that category. But what the answer is,

(49:35):
I don't know, But we'll need a I don't know
we have a Cotton Mather right now. I can't see
John Keel quite in the same role as the Puritan
divine explaining to us what was going on, but perhaps
his own view of himself was a little more along
those lines, but I can't really say.

Speaker 1 (49:55):
So.

Speaker 6 (49:55):
You can read about that story and more in Horace's
book will Mannix Guy.

Speaker 3 (50:00):
Oh, thank you for putting that up.

Speaker 5 (50:03):
I have that book. I didn't make the connection. How
about that.

Speaker 2 (50:08):
Yeah, that's a good book Forrris. It's interesting because I think,
I mean, even Christian, more modern Christian theologians like C. S.
Lewis in The Discarded Image suggests that once we used
to be able to reconcile the spiritual understanding of the
universe with even natural phenomena. Perhaps the way that the

(50:28):
way that you were talking about Cotton Mather interpreting the
northern lights to mean multiple things. And I think that's
one of the reasons the things that we're interested in
the paranormal why they grab us so much today, Because
there's been this kind of demystifying of reality through science
and through our day to day lives, you know, working

(50:49):
in an office cubicle or just binging Netflix and driving
between the two and rinse and repeat. I think there's
a real desire deep within us to find mystery again
in things. And perhaps that's why sometimes people project their
own idea of mystery onto natural phenomena. But I do
think there's something weirder out there, and I do think
there's something strange out there, And I think that's why

(51:10):
networks like the Untold Radio Network and other shows in
this space will feel and important and important part of
the broader cultural tapestry because people want to people know
that there's there's something more, or they hope there's something
more meaningful than their day to day lives. And perhaps
this type of type of the year, where things get
colder and we get to be more reflective and get

(51:31):
to hang out inside more, is a time where we
share more stories.

Speaker 3 (51:34):
Like this, the speaking of stories. Besides your documentary, I
understand that you have a new work in progress. Can
you give us any more hints on what it will be?

Speaker 2 (51:50):
That's that's nice of you to bring up ours. Yes,
As many people know, I have a short documentary called
The Shave of Mystery on the fest circuit the moment.
In fact, people want to watch it who haven't seen
it yet been to any of the couple dozen fest
screenings that's had it screening at San Francisco's Another Hole
in the Head in early December, but that festival always

(52:11):
also has an online component, so even if you're not
in San Francisco, you can go to another Hole in
the Head. Just google that festival in San Francisco and
you can get festival passes to watch films online, so
you can actually watch The Shaver Mystery online, I think,
for all of December through another hole in the Head,
And that's part of my bigger documentary about Ray Palmer

(52:32):
and Richard Shaver and the creation of modern UFO belief
called The Man Who Invented Flying Sauces, which I've been
working on now for a few years. But to answer
your question about my other thing I did, I don't
know why. I don't know where it came from. I
guess it's as mysterious as the things we were just
talking about. But I had this real desire to do
a very specific Halloween short horror movie, and everything fell

(52:56):
into place, so I took advantage to do it. I
think also was a part of me wanting to have
a film still on the festival circuit next year, when
I'll be working on the feature and The Shaver of
Mystery would have done its dash on the festival circuit.
But I've been what, Yeah, I've been making this film.
I co wrote it with my daughter. She's fascinated with birds,
and she's interested in ASL, which is American Sign language,

(53:20):
and she, like all kids, likes Halloween. So those three things, birds, ASL,
and Halloween are a big part of the short film,
which I hope will I think it will play well
in the festival circuit because it's such a weird, strange,
little unique horror movie. I think it'll I think it'll
be on the circuit this year, so should be able
to see. It's called I'll give it. I haven't given

(53:41):
the title away at all that I'm going to give
it away now it's called Halloween. Bird is the name
of the film.

Speaker 3 (53:48):
Can't wait.

Speaker 2 (53:49):
Thanks Horace, thank you. And now now I've given it away,
so I haven't given away the whole. That's the most
I've ever said about that movie to anybody, not forget
about publicly, to any.

Speaker 4 (54:00):
You're gonna have to give me a sneak preview, Dean,
I want to see it.

Speaker 2 (54:04):
I'll give you it should be done within about the
next month, because i'd like, I'm so busy with Midwest
weirdest and horror festival work. Now I have to really
tie it up and so yeah, I'll send you a
sneak screen.

Speaker 4 (54:14):
And weird Fest is in March, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (54:17):
In a clear Wisconsin the first weekend, which I think
this year we run from Thursday the fifth to Sunday
the eighth, including those dates. You should come, Doug. You're
not that that far away. You'd have a great time.

Speaker 4 (54:30):
No, I'm not. It seems like every time in March,
and see one year I broke my leg, another year
at COVID during that time, it just gets like, hopefully
maybe I have a March where it's not weird going
on to come to weird Fest.

Speaker 2 (54:47):
So I think you'd enjoy it. I'd love to do
one of your films one day as well, if Legend
meets Science ever tease up with the release or something.
It'd be so much fun to do that there with
you as well.

Speaker 4 (54:57):
Now, that'd be very cool.

Speaker 2 (54:58):
Everybody should come, by the way.

Speaker 4 (55:00):
Very cool. You're welcome to come. Yeah, And i'd love
to get you on Steve and you on Horrors for
obviously different reasons, but be really cool to Pug. Oh, yeah,
the pudgy.

Speaker 2 (55:15):
I don't know Susie till talk a little bit about what.

Speaker 4 (55:17):
God, I haven't seen one of those, tell talk about me,
because let me say one thing, small is way creepier
and way scarier than big.

Speaker 6 (55:30):
Can we give the same energy to human women that
are small to be scared of.

Speaker 7 (55:35):
Us as well?

Speaker 4 (55:38):
I'm talking about little two foot creatures.

Speaker 2 (55:40):
My girlfriend's below five foot, I think, and she's she
when she gets mad with me? Man, yes she can,
oh boy.

Speaker 4 (55:48):
But I think if I saw a puk wadgy, some
little two what are they?

Speaker 1 (55:52):
Two?

Speaker 4 (55:52):
Three feet tall?

Speaker 6 (55:54):
Depends on the area and who you're talking to you about?

Speaker 4 (55:57):
Yeah, around there, that would be chilling, very chilling. I
should put you in touch with somebody I just interviewed
that saw probably one of those, and that the story
is fantastic. It was witnessed by numerous people and it's
really good. That's quite an encounter. I'll put you in

(56:18):
touch with him.

Speaker 7 (56:19):
I appreciate that. I'm intrigued.

Speaker 2 (56:21):
Where was that dog?

Speaker 4 (56:23):
It happened in Minnesota and literally at a boat launch,
you know, up in the Grand Rapids kind of general area,
in a forest, heavily forested area. But apparently I don't
want to give it away, but you should interview him.

(56:46):
He's very limited on his time. He's pretty busy. He's
a teacher. But you know, you can take his story
to the bank. It's quite a story.

Speaker 2 (56:58):
A puck watch. He's all over the country, usually, Susie,
or are they more native to the north the northeast.

Speaker 6 (57:05):
So different different tribes have different words for them. Puck
Ledge is the Algonquin word for it. So that's like
the northeast US and southeast Canada. But little people are
all over every Every culture in the entire world has
little people's stories.

Speaker 2 (57:25):
I think we talked once back in the day, Susie,
about one not that far from me in Medford, Wisconsin,
that you've said that you pointed me a little person
story there if I recall.

Speaker 6 (57:35):
Yeah, I believe that one.

Speaker 2 (57:39):
Maybe maybe it was Stratford, Wisconsin.

Speaker 7 (57:41):
Strafford sounds familiar.

Speaker 6 (57:42):
Yes, Yeah, a woman had seen little people run across
the road.

Speaker 7 (57:47):
I believe was that story wearing blue.

Speaker 4 (57:54):
Do these things often like shake bushes or do any
like that? Have you ever heard that?

Speaker 6 (58:02):
Uh, they'll do anything that's annoying in my experiences, knocking
on side the houses, throwing rocks, stealing things, all any
kind of mischief that just anything to annoy you, So
shaking a bush would not surprise me in the least bit.

Speaker 4 (58:25):
Yeah, as I remember, it was making some weird sounds
and shaking this bush and shaking those bush, and then
when this gentleman would approach the bush, it would stop,
and then he would back off and it would start
shaking it again. I just kept doing that, and then
finally it came out, exposed itself and took off. So

(58:48):
but yeah, you'll have to interview them. Absolutely, he wants
to tell a story, but he doesn't want to tell
it to people that don't believe him.

Speaker 7 (58:55):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (58:56):
Yeah, he's never told the story to public. I begged
him and he came on and did a member's only show,
not even a public show. But it's just really sincere,
you know, it really shook them up.

Speaker 2 (59:13):
I often wonder if these things are because Pakwadji seems
to be very native to North America. But then there's
obviously similar things. There's little people all over the planet,
like you were talking before, Sissy about the Duende, and
there's fairy faith in Ireland and every country has it.
They're little people. I wonder if they it's not something similar.

(59:34):
It just takes a cultural trope wherever it happens to
be to be cited.

Speaker 6 (59:38):
I don't know, Well, it's like people like you have Europeans,
you know, you have Asian people, you have African people.
I mean, it's just different flavors of the same thing
in different parts of the world, is how I feel
about it.

Speaker 2 (59:55):
Because I've heard some people in North America I think
don't have on recently, maybe Monica Rawlins was talking about
it about having had experiences with some things which would
have been more traditionally thought of to be European type
fair folk here, like you know, little people here. But
I wonder if that's just then the culture that the

(01:00:19):
person's been experienced to kind of interacting whatever the phenomenon
or interacting with whatever the phenomenon is, because that begs
the question did the fair folk come with, you know,
colonizers over to America or do they tell about.

Speaker 6 (01:00:33):
They were here before we were? For sure, there is
existing tribal lore and stories about them, but I mean
there is something to say, you know, that the paranormal
might present itself in a way that's palatable to you. Like,

(01:00:54):
as an example, there was a UFO saiting in New
Haven Colony since before America is the country that was
a huge ship that was in the sky, like.

Speaker 7 (01:01:07):
A literal ship, a sailing ship with mass.

Speaker 6 (01:01:11):
So you know, at that time what we think of
as a UFO would have made no sense to them.
And today if somebody saw a big ship in the sky,
that would be that would be absolutely wild. But so
it may just be presenting itself in a way that

(01:01:31):
we would expect it to.

Speaker 3 (01:01:34):
Yeah, I was going to ask you a similar point
that it has spent a long time since I've read
Red Cotton Mathers Wonders of the Invincible World. Now, I
wondered if anything like the budges appear there seen through
the view of Cotton Mather. Do you remember?

Speaker 7 (01:01:57):
I don't not that I recalled.

Speaker 6 (01:01:59):
No, I do know that the Puritans came in and
called pages demons, So if they had referred to them,
they would not have called them puck lodgies.

Speaker 7 (01:02:14):
So maybe I should go back and read it and
read between the lines on that.

Speaker 3 (01:02:23):
The demons. They did have belief in demons, as I recall,
but I can't remember the constitute.

Speaker 6 (01:02:31):
Yeah, I think they called them like tiny devils or
something along those lines.

Speaker 7 (01:02:37):
But like the general idea of a demon.

Speaker 2 (01:02:43):
When when you were talking about ships in the skies, Susie,
I couldn't help but think of, of course, one of
Steve's favorite topics, I know, the great airship, and I
know you've written about that as well in your work Orus.
When people saw it was essentially America's first well known UFO,
or we had the term UFO in the eighteen ninety
six to eighty ninety seven, where this enormous heavier as

(01:03:06):
apparently heavier than aircraft traveled across the skies of America
in the period just before heavier than air travel, and
it was carried in, you know, every newspaper of the day.
But it presented itself then in a Jules vernesque you know,
and we might say steampunk escway now, the way people
imagine that a heavier than aircraft would look at that

(01:03:28):
time period. And that seemed to be presenting within the
cultural expectations of the day, just as we have tickets
today presenting within the cultural expectation and what we expect
to see in the heavens. Or in the nineteen fifties
we had disc shaped craft, you know, reflecting what we
expected from from science fiction tales of the day.

Speaker 3 (01:03:50):
I think it's true.

Speaker 5 (01:03:53):
I think it inspired Jules Verne when he wrote A
Master of the World and Romar the Conqueror. I think
he was inspired by the reports of the newspapers and
the airships.

Speaker 3 (01:04:04):
There were many reports from Michigan as one of the
places that they flew over. Some of them were just
lights in the sky at night, and it kind of moved.
These reports kind of moved across the country, partly following,
I suppose, the newspaper reports.

Speaker 4 (01:04:27):
But.

Speaker 3 (01:04:29):
They were there. And then in nineteen oh nine when
there is an airship again seen over Michigan, excuse me
that time of a Connecticut just before Christmas. It was
seen interpreted as kind of a model plane. And by

(01:04:50):
that time, of course, the Wright Brothers and other early
airplanes were around, and the reports that was flying over
New England just before Christmas, it was more like a
mysterious airplane credited to a mysterious inventor named Towing Hast
whose name was also used later on by love HP

(01:05:12):
Lovecraft in the story, so that the reports changed the time.
During World War One, there was a strange object which
may have been part of the uf UFO, but may
have been northern lights as well, and they described it
as a dirigible moving through the skies at the time

(01:05:34):
that the Roman the German dirigibles were flying over over England.
So yeah, people see what they're ready to see. I
guess I just.

Speaker 4 (01:05:49):
So disagree with you on that horse. Oh my god,
A thousand percent. Okay, let's we got to have a
debate sometimes.

Speaker 3 (01:05:58):
Oh, I'd love to.

Speaker 4 (01:06:00):
The reason I do is because many people with that
opinion have not seen.

Speaker 3 (01:06:04):
Anything that they haven't seen that these not things, but
what they see is how they see it.

Speaker 4 (01:06:17):
I know people can can be bringing me tricked, but
when I'm looking at my popcan, it's a popcn, it's
not anything else.

Speaker 2 (01:06:26):
Can I just suggest something that doe because I agree
with both of you. There's a there's a fascinating piece
by Greg Bishop, who I think is one of the
greatest thinkers writing in the UFO field today, and he's
thing similar to what Keel and Vlain and others have
said before him. But it's a piece in the late
Robbie Grame he was He edited a book called UFOs

(01:06:48):
Framing the Debate, filled with a number of interesting essays
and in in Greg Bishop's essay in that book he
talks about and this is just related to UFOs, but
I myself think it can span out to the rest
of the broader paranormal or foting space as well. And
that is he suggested that there might be a co
creation process going on, that whatever the phenomenon is, which

(01:07:10):
he thinks is real, is independent office that somehow we
co create what we see with that phenomenon.

Speaker 4 (01:07:18):
Well, okay, okay, okay, but you're not finishing your thoughting
and your thought really as you're saying, the world's a matrix,
that's really what you're saying.

Speaker 2 (01:07:28):
I absolutely I think too you're.

Speaker 4 (01:07:30):
Not finishing that something, so you need to when you
state that argument.

Speaker 2 (01:07:33):
No, I'm happy. I'm happy to finish it beacause it's
something I agree with.

Speaker 4 (01:07:37):
I do right right, I mean, the world can be
very much and I've seen evidence of that too. For instance,
almost every time I go to the end of my
block to take a right or left, there's tons of
people crossing the road right in front of me. Every time,
and I look down, I could see a mile and
a half that way. In a mile and a half,

(01:07:59):
there's no buddy. And why is it every time I
go to that damn intersection and sometimes there's up to
fifteen people crossing, and I'm like, this is not possible.
And so everybody I know now is taking notice. They're
all reporting the same thing. It's like all these strange

(01:08:19):
you know, suddenly there's all these people there. Okay, I
can tell you it's stories of glitches and something. You
can call it the matrix or whatever, glitches in time.
But I so strongly disagree that it's To me, it's
it's like the biggest insult you could give a witness.
It's just a massive You might as well just punch

(01:08:41):
him in the face and call him a liar. I
interview witnesses.

Speaker 7 (01:08:47):
It's not it's not lying.

Speaker 4 (01:08:49):
That's it's being well, let me finish, let me, let
me finish. But to sit there and go, well, it's
because we expect certain things and you know whatever, you know,
we're seeing what we want to see, and blah blah blah. No,
we like everybody goes, what in the hell am I
looking at? You can't place it, You don't know what
you're looking at until you see it. I'm close enough

(01:09:12):
and good enough light and then you go.

Speaker 6 (01:09:14):
Wow, And actually especially when you're looking at something you
have no idea what you're looking at, because your brain
is going to want to fill it in with something
that does well well.

Speaker 4 (01:09:25):
I'll tell you an exact story where I thought a
big foot was a moose once we were driving. Mean event,
we're driving south on one sixty nine near the Malsake
Shore and we see it along the side of the road.
What we think is a moose waving its antlers back
and forth, and we're like, Wow, that's weird, and what
is that moose doing so close to the road And

(01:09:47):
it's not walking. It's just because we get closer, we
don't realize the antlers are arms and they're waving. And
then as we get closer we can see fingers. We
will see fingers talking. You know. This is after we
we had our experience. We could see the long hair
coming off the arms, and then we realized it's a

(01:10:08):
big foot because it's way too big to be anything else.
I mean, it was a really big look like a
big male had its back to us. We could see
the long hair coming off the arms. We immediately exchange
every we both saw what we saw. It's no different
than seeing a bloody house.

Speaker 5 (01:10:27):
You know there's a blue temporal manifestation.

Speaker 4 (01:10:31):
I don't believe in any of that garbage, absolutely respect.
But you made a statement to me when I first
got I've never seen anything exactly, So you're prejudice. You're
both very prejudice, and you need to open up your minds.

Speaker 5 (01:10:50):
And I hope to God, I think we're just posting
very enlightened.

Speaker 3 (01:10:55):
I guess my view was a little bit different than
than than that. Exactly. I was saying that when you
saw the moose or in the Bigfoot, you had known
you had seen moose before, you had had some idea
of humanoids before, You've never seen either.

Speaker 4 (01:11:14):
And if the and if deciding would have ended right there,
I would have thought we just saw most.

Speaker 3 (01:11:20):
That I was saying, it was.

Speaker 5 (01:11:23):
A moose.

Speaker 3 (01:11:24):
You had never heard of a moose before, you had
no idea that such a thing existed. How would you
have interpreted it? And that's a harder question answer.

Speaker 4 (01:11:35):
And I would have said, I saw a strange something strange.

Speaker 3 (01:11:37):
But right, And and I think, but would you like it?

Speaker 4 (01:11:41):
And I could have drawn it, something could swear I
didn't imagine it.

Speaker 3 (01:11:47):
Well, we have some kind of progression. Then over time
in the nature of UFOs. It's got to be either
in the interpretation by the viewer or has to be
a real progression of all time.

Speaker 4 (01:12:03):
Look, I've been researching this topic for forty some years
now and researching it, and for many of those years professionally,
Like I'm getting paid to do it, so I'm doing
it a lot. It's like all day, all night. I
deal with witnesses every day. I deal with forensic evidence

(01:12:24):
every day. I deal with pictures every day, video, I
deal with a lot of the pure doylea you know,
the circle pictures and all that kind of crap. Yeah,
of course I've got bigfoots all over my shower and
it's just ceramic tile. But you can find I get
all that. I'm not ignorant to all that. But to

(01:12:44):
say that what like me and I Vetts saw together
was imagined by predetermined God knows what we're saying, it's
just not we saw. We saw a strange creature neither
of us can identify.

Speaker 2 (01:12:59):
Can I Can I just say something quickly, Doug, because
I certainly don't. I would never suggest that you didn't
actually see that. But I think there is a tradition
which probably Steve and perhaps Susie in myself subscribed to
and Horace is I think in a slightly different camp.
But John Keel would never have suggested, for example, that
people didn't see the mothmn. He jacqu Valet would never

(01:13:22):
suggest people didn't see the mothmn. Greg Bishop would never
suggest people didn't see the moth man. But the suggestion
is that these things interact with our reality in a
very different way. And perhaps your car and your garage,
mind you, there's physicists who say there's no reason your
car and your garage couldn't slip through your door anyway

(01:13:44):
if the conditions were right, and something very different could happen.
I think you were closest to it when you talked
about simulation theory, just as you've had experiences that suggest
that reality might be exactly the nuts and bolt style
that most of us would like to think.

Speaker 4 (01:14:00):
Now we may find out everything is an illusion.

Speaker 2 (01:14:03):
Yeah, and so perhaps I think when people have I
think the great value of the paranormal mightn't be in
as under. And when I say the paranormal get I
mean it in the unknown. The forty in the broader sense,
from cryptis to UFOs, to go to everything else. Maybe
the great value in it isn't the the existence of
a bigfoot, or the reality of visiting extraterrestrials, or the

(01:14:25):
life after death and your great aunt Gertrude is haunting
the family estate. It might be that these things and
you might say glitch in the matrix, Doug, because that's
a very good analogy you use. But maybe these things
tell us something more about reality in a broader sense.
Maybe these are things that in somehow point to a deeper,

(01:14:46):
stranger reality that we're all invested in but don't understand
what it is yet. So I think that's the value
in what we talk about that somehow it's it's a
peak into a bigger where I think.

Speaker 4 (01:14:58):
It's very offensive people is when people who have never
witnessed anything odd in their life start preaching about miss
you know, they start using these words misidentifying, uh, confabulation,
blah blah blah. It's just you're not doing the whole
world any good. You're you're you're basically shutting people up,

(01:15:22):
is what you're doing. You're gonna get less data, you're
gonna have less data to look through. And it's the
stuff I fight every day trying to get stories out
of people. And the reason they don't want to say
those stories because they don't want to be accused of confabulating.

Speaker 5 (01:15:38):
You know, that's not what the confabulation is coming from
the source. You know, if if people, if you had
a third party out there watching what was going on,
they may see something totally different than what the person
believes they're experiencing.

Speaker 2 (01:15:56):
It's not sure what you just said.

Speaker 5 (01:15:58):
It's not just making up stuff. It's the way the
phenomena seems to present itself sometimes.

Speaker 4 (01:16:03):
Well, that's not confabulation. That's manifests. Something's manifesting, so they're
seeing what's really there or what's been manifested by them.

Speaker 5 (01:16:14):
No, not necessarily see what.

Speaker 4 (01:16:16):
What's really weird is it's as if so many skeptics
blame the witness and that's when I really my blood
pressure goes up. You look, I listen to people every
week blaming witnesses and it gets so old, like the

(01:16:38):
witnesses made it up because they wanted to be famous,
wanted to make money, one of this, want of that,
they just their imagining. They read a sci fi book
the night before blah blah, you know what I mean,
And it's just such an insult.

Speaker 2 (01:16:52):
Well, I think John Keele talked about the silent contact
day's the people who had had experiences and didn't even
want to talk about it, and I think they of
the things that Steve's particularly interesting. I think perhaps the
best example, or the best analogy for my perhaps position
on this is one that Jacques Valet wrote about, and
he said, imagine that you're in a cinema and you're

(01:17:16):
watching a film in front of you, right and this
you know, it's a wonderful romance, and you know it's moving,
and the soundtrack swells, and you walk out of that cinema.
You're not thinking about the technology that really gave you
that experience. The technology was sitting behind you in the dark,
in the projection booth. And if another audience went to

(01:17:37):
that cinema after you, or another person and they changed
the film and they projected a horror movie instead, that
person might come out and going, I just saw the
most horrifying movie of my life. You both were you
both were exposed to the same technology, but the image
that was projected in front of you or thrown in
front of you was different. But the experience was actually

(01:18:00):
the technology or the reality of the experience was exactly
the same, but the emotional and the visual and the
audio results of what you experienced were very different. And
perhaps perhaps I think that's when I was talking about
the co creation theory. Greg Bishop goes even deeper and
suggests that maybe we're influencing what's being shown to us

(01:18:24):
in the projection booth.

Speaker 4 (01:18:27):
Well, obviously we have to relate to things. I'm just
not sure that's a good analogy for what I hear
every week. You know, It's just not a good analogy.
A great analogy is people generally see what they see
unless are lying. It's you know, they don't always know

(01:18:47):
what it is, but they can describe it, they can
draw it, they can whatever. I just don't think that
I saw something back in the seventies that I had
never seen anything until like the late nineties of something similar.
And I saw it first, and that was a hooded

(01:19:08):
figure at the end of my bed, just standing there
staring at me. And then all of a sudden, like
in the nineties, I read, oh, people are seeing hooded figures.
So I didn't have anything that would pre empt me
from imagining that. Now did I imagine it? It's possible,
but I didn't lie about seeing it. It may not

(01:19:31):
have been real. It could have been a dream, it
could have been whatever, But I didn't lie about it,
you know, I didn't make it up.

Speaker 5 (01:19:40):
But the progression of the phenomena horse touched on this.
The UFO phenomena, call it what you want, has manifested
differently over the centuries and the decades, and that's where
that's where the co creation may come in a lot
of the U phenomena was always seemed to manifest or

(01:20:03):
be experienced a little bit ahead of our technology. The
airships were ahead of our technology. Then you had you know,
you had the food fighters, you had way back, you
had just strange lights of this guy which were interpreted
as even as witches carrying their lanterns or fairy lights.
But then over time then we had the modern day
UFO era where you're seeing these egg shaped craft or saucer.

Speaker 4 (01:20:26):
Yeah, but that's still a weak argument because the guy
in the eighteen hundreds would have still drawn it the
same as a guy twos I know.

Speaker 5 (01:20:34):
But it's there's this this progression where it's not static
and it's it suggests as Dean was talking about, but.

Speaker 4 (01:20:43):
You're suggesting words, not yeah, but you're only suggesting words.
I'm just suggesting what does it look like? You know,
And I don't think that's changed from now until the
beginning of time.

Speaker 3 (01:20:55):
Right. One of the problems with the going back in
time is if you go back to the airship signings
of the eighteen seventies or eighteen nineties, you say, what
did the people see? What did they draw? Well, we
have what the newspaper artists drew.

Speaker 4 (01:21:11):
Yeah, exactly, we don't.

Speaker 3 (01:21:13):
Have what the the witness drew. And so there we
have what's reported in the newspapers. There wasn't a a
UFO team going out and investigating and drawing pictures at

(01:21:35):
the time. So one would have to ask in this interpretation,
is it the people who are reporting who in the
past and not necessarily the actual observers who are in
serving this progression, or whether it's it the actual phenomenon.

Speaker 4 (01:21:56):
Yeah, new secondhand for sure. You know, I'm just talking
about today modern day. Obviously there's all sorts of garbage
and stuff. But I just I just hate it when
people who have never witnessed anything kind of make it
put everybody in the same bucket and say Oh, they're

(01:22:16):
all just kind of confabulating. Well, okay, it's because your life,
you know, you need to get out more and look
up more, and you need to go in the woods more,
and probably you will have some experience. Come on up
to sell Grove with me for a night.

Speaker 2 (01:22:31):
Shure, I'll come up to snow Groving.

Speaker 4 (01:22:33):
Well, yeah, if you got eighteen hundred bucks, I'll bring
anybody up there. It will change their life. But that's
the kind of thing people need to get out, you know.
I've just and you can understand after doing this for
forty years and having to coax information out of people
and beg to get it even just on a one

(01:22:53):
to one little ongoing public with it or reporting it.
And it's because they've been just battered by the media.
They've been laughed at by the news every time I
see a newscast. To my UFO was Bigfoot, I was
the giggle at the end. And it's just terrible.

Speaker 2 (01:23:11):
I think the Keelian or the Vilainan approach, though, isn't dismissive.
Like both of those men, for example, when they dealt
with witnesses, they were very thoughtful and they were able
to get details that other people wouldn't have like Hill
understood something that nobody else understood.

Speaker 4 (01:23:28):
Who was Oh he was an amazing indus.

Speaker 2 (01:23:30):
Yeah, he would know how to ask, well, did you
have any other weird experience?

Speaker 4 (01:23:34):
Is it like?

Speaker 2 (01:23:35):
Well, UFO investigator would just go there and want to
know about the UFO. The Bigfoot researcher would want to
go there and just know about the bigfoot. The ghost
investigator would go there and just want to know the ghost.
Kiel would know to ask, is there any other strange
experiences that happened to you? And then often then that's
when he would find it. Oh, yeah, it's funny because
a week later I saw a strange creature in my yard.

(01:23:55):
Or it's weird because the cupboards were rattling in my
kitchen one night, which I couldn't explained. So he started
to open up his investigations to more than just the
UFO phenomenon, or more than just the cryptid phenomenon, or
more than just the ghost phenomenon. I think he and
Vallet and other thinkers like him began to realize that

(01:24:16):
there seemed to be some broad a strangeness that this
could very well, or seemed at least to them to
all be a part of right.

Speaker 4 (01:24:26):
I just think that people who have not seen a
UFO should be very careful and they're wording when they're talking.
If they're going to be talking about the subject, and
they've studied all the history and all that stuff's great,
and that's awesome. I couldn't. I don't know half the
thing Steve or Horace now or Susie knows about, you know,

(01:24:48):
their topics, their favorite topics. Because you guys are historians,
you really get into it. I'm more into the win
the ground level.

Speaker 5 (01:24:59):
You know, the.

Speaker 4 (01:25:01):
The sightings and I you know, so many of them
just get beat up on a daily basis, you know, unintentionally.

Speaker 7 (01:25:11):
Bro.

Speaker 4 (01:25:11):
I know it's not intentional, but unintentionally by people looking
for all these skeptical all the well, maybe they did,
maybe they maybe that, maybe they read this, maybe they
did that. It's just so insulting to people. I heard
some so deep.

Speaker 7 (01:25:29):
I talked to witnesses a lot myself.

Speaker 6 (01:25:31):
I go out and I talk to people I've witnessed
things myself as well. I think, yes, it's insulting to
like imply that they are well, obviously it's insulting if
you if it's implied that they're.

Speaker 7 (01:25:45):
Lying or we're just creating crazy. Yeah, to say, oh,
maybe it was a bear, right, maybe it was a bear.
But I think most people know what a bear looks
like if they're out in the woods all the time
and stuff like that. But when you're talking about the
kind of the more high.

Speaker 6 (01:26:05):
Strangeness stuff, stuff like moth man, stuff like puck wedgies.

Speaker 7 (01:26:11):
Probably even I'm not a UFO person, so but I
think those can maybe fit into this too. I think
people want to know, like, what is this? Why did
I see it? And they want to hear.

Speaker 6 (01:26:23):
Kind of it's helpful to talk through like different theories
like people like Heel and Vallet have had about you know,
where these things are coming from.

Speaker 4 (01:26:32):
Sure, I think that's all good. Yeah, I think that's
all good. But not saying words like confabulation. It sounds
like you fat they fabricated.

Speaker 5 (01:26:44):
It, fabrication interpreting it.

Speaker 4 (01:26:48):
Well, I realized, but it's just it's confabulation means you
made it up, but you had some people in your
brain biaps some of the.

Speaker 5 (01:27:00):
We'll explain.

Speaker 4 (01:27:02):
By the way. I just I like to debat this stuff.
It's it's good to debate it. It's healthy, So go ahead.

Speaker 3 (01:27:12):
Dino Is chastises me and vice versa when we get
talking about.

Speaker 2 (01:27:17):
That, I'm the anti scientist. I'm the Fortian and everybody
forgets you likes Charles thought that fought despised science. So
there's all these people who say they're fortunes and and
and actually love sciences like that doesn't make any sense
to me anyway.

Speaker 4 (01:27:32):
I just so now explain the confabulation. How I'm wrong
on that?

Speaker 2 (01:27:37):
Can I just throw? But before I throw it back
to Steve to say that, I'll give you this might
be an example. It's there's been an adaptation of my
PhD dissertation I've been working on for a while between films,
and eventually I'll get it finished. But there's there's something
I talk about in that book which I didn't talk
about my dissertation. I kind of use this, I guess,
you know, allegory for for people who have experience with

(01:28:00):
the other. And I have had an experience with the other.
When I was a child, I had regular bedroom visitations
which were quite frightening. Whatever they were, we won't go
into that now. But my example is if a child
was playing on their front lawn, and a bus pulled
up in front of them. Oh we've lost Dug. I
don't know.

Speaker 4 (01:28:19):
No, I'm here. I'm here.

Speaker 2 (01:28:20):
Okay, good Because it was made you. I was probably
telling you my most of my audience have heard this
story before. If you were playing in your front lawn
as a child, and like a creeper van pulled up
and out of the window a harlequin, or if somebody
dressed as a clown hung out and said, Hey, my
name's Funbo the Clown. I'm going to Disneyland for the
greatest party of the year, and I've got puppies and

(01:28:41):
kiddies and candy in the back. Jump in, kid, We're
going to have a great time.

Speaker 5 (01:28:45):
Now.

Speaker 2 (01:28:46):
If the child jumped into that van, the child would
be in a very dangerous situation. Right if the whatever reason,
that child actually got away and later told his parents
he was abducted by Funbo the clown, and Funbo and
the parents told the police, and the police took the children.
The child and the parents the police wouldn't go. We've

(01:29:07):
got to go and find Funbo the clown who lives
in Disneyland. So let's go over to Anaheim, because that's
where this person said it was from and it's a
clown called Funbo. They would know instantly that this child
has been manipulated and lied to, and what it was
showing wasn't the reality of its experience. Now, obviously, to
your point, Doug, to tell that child there's no such

(01:29:29):
thing as Funbo the clown. You invented all of this,
You've just made it up in your head, it would
be incredibly traumatizing to that child for the rest of
its life. But alternatively problematic for that child psychologically is
to agree with that child and say, there is a
Funbo the clown. We think he lives in Disneyland, just
like you said, and we're going to go and search
Disneyland for Funbo the Clown to prove that you're right. So,

(01:29:52):
I think what happens with the paranormal often is somebody
has an experience. Some people are dismissive and say, well,
there's no such thing as big Foot, just like we
know there's no Funbo the clown, so you're obviously dreaming it,
or it's alien abductions more way Wheelhouse. So to say somebody,
we know there's no aliens, you were never abducted, that's
traumatic on one level equally problematic, though, is to tell

(01:30:14):
the person, well, we know that they're grays from the
planets that to ARTICULARI, and that they're coming here doing
you know, a breeding program, and that you're probably having
hybrid children, and that this is all part of some
plan to colonize the planet, as some alien abduction researchers Allah,
Bud Hopkinson and David Jacobs, for example, do so. Or
Bud Hopkins's past now, but he did that. So my

(01:30:36):
point is when a witness has an experience with something
which is fundamentally unknowable in the paranormal space where I'm
very suspicious of what the phenomenon is showing us how
much it is based in our normal day to day reality,
it doesn't mean it's anything less important. In fact, in
some ways it's more important. But to either dismiss the witness,
which is what I think you're seeing, Doug, is a

(01:30:57):
problem I totally agree. But to also double down and
tell them well, we know there's you know, we know
the aliens from Zena particular are coming here in harvesting
you know, reproductive you know, liquids from you, that's problematic.
That's equally problematic and I think that's the problem most
of the paranormal feel have fallen into. And I think

(01:31:20):
I think both of those things was problematic for well.

Speaker 4 (01:31:23):
I think I think Dad has a lot of bearing.
Like David Jacobs would talk about the way he would,
you know, hypnotize abduction right, uh, whatever the name is
for them abduction victims, he would be very careful that
he wasn't getting confabulated by implanting thoughts in their brain

(01:31:46):
and so on, because to me, I've always thought as
just a fabricated memory. Period.

Speaker 2 (01:31:53):
Well, I think the I think the problem is is
that they say that, but I don't know if that's true.
For example, I met a woman when same trip I
talked to Bud Hopkins at some length who I used
her quotes in my dissertation, although I didnt point the
finger at Bud because he was still alive. And she
told me, you know, she was a major experience, she

(01:32:13):
was a major part of Hopkins research. And she said
she knew she'd had all these experiences, but she could
never remember what the entities looked like. And I had
a tape recording, and so I quoted it directly from
a tape recording my dissertation and the quote was but
he pushed and he pushed and he pushed, and I
eventually told him what he wanted to hear, that they
were little gray men with big black eyes. But she

(01:32:33):
had no recollection of that. And I think David Jacobs,
who was his partner Jacobs is still alive, is equally problematic. Jacobs,
I think now has many ways been in the me
too era, probably rightfully so thrown overboard because these communications
came out with a female abductee where he was asking
her to send him. We won't go into details because

(01:32:56):
it's a family show, but undergarments and to wear certain
devices and do all this crazy, non appropriate to talk
in front of an audience things. Also, Bud Hopkins wife
or ex wife, Carol wrote a piece saying that she
thought that Bud Hopkins and Jacob's and all of those
people they had no understanding about any comp And I

(01:33:18):
had this in my own experience talking to Bud, who
was lovely with me. I had breakfast with him, a
lovely man, but he didn't want to hear any comparative analysis.
So she said, what always amazed me is that they
had no understanding with I'm paraphrasing her, but with any
of the traditions that have become before a reduction, and
I felt I found that exactly the same. When I
was talking to Bout, I said, aren't there any comparisons

(01:33:40):
with like fairy faith in this kind of stuff? And
he said, well, there's no there's no rainbows or pots
of gold at the end of, you know, an abduction story.
And I'm thinking, in fairy faith, you're talking about a
lucky Charms commercial, right, there aren't many stories in fairy
faith where there's a rainbow and a pot of gold,
Like I'm sure there are some where there's a pot
of gold, right, But but for him to just dismiss

(01:34:01):
the comparative analysis that similar things to what you're talking
about have been recorded for hundreds and hundreds of years
outside of a scientific extraterrestrial interpretation. So my point is,
I think those researchers brought so much of their own
belief system and baggage to the people they are encountering
that they in turn often under hypnosis, which you know

(01:34:24):
that is when you can get confabulation. By the way, Doug,
that isn't just a witness like somebody you encounter who
saw a big foot in the woods. This is somebody
laying on a couch who doesn't have a great memory.

Speaker 4 (01:34:34):
Okay, I've been involved in many, many hypnotisms with the witnesses.
Do you think they're problems a whole bunch of money?
Do you think they're problematic as far as the memories
or I don't know. I'm not the hypnotist. I deal
with professionals that I hire and pay to deal with witnesses.

Speaker 2 (01:34:56):
Well, I do know that the very first hypno aggression
of in the alien duction space, which was Betty and
Barney Hill's a psychiatrist who did the hit the hypnotic
work on their Benjamin Simon was his name, And it
is in Curtis Fuller's Interrupted Journey, that first Abduction book,
that that scientists didn't think that they'd been abduct that

(01:35:18):
that hypno, that that therapist or he was actually a
psychiatrist who not just a psychologist. He thought that this
wasn't something that happened to He thought.

Speaker 4 (01:35:27):
The last big thing we did, God, I was like
eight different witnesses that was here done in my home.
The therapist never once mentioned anything about begfoot any of them,
just brought them back to a certain day. That's that
that was all that that was done, and the amount

(01:35:49):
of trauma that I witnessed, of people screaming, crying out
of fear, and it was just really amazing. I felt
at all for it'll be a legitimate science, it's not,
you know, it's it really gets to you when I've
watched you know, grown men in the military crying and

(01:36:12):
screaming based on an experience and reliving fear that they
had and suppressed, not based on anything big but big
but was never mentioned. They just would go through and describe,
you know whatever. There's no no confabulation. This was real
trauma that people had experienced. And I'm not saying people

(01:36:35):
there's nobody that can fabulates. I'm just saying it's you
have to take. There has to be Those words are
said so loosely and so often.

Speaker 5 (01:36:45):
I hear it so aboutating the experience imprinted on them
involved confabulation.

Speaker 4 (01:36:52):
Yeah, well, let's I'd love to hear more from you, Steve.
Now I'm gonna shut up and listen.

Speaker 5 (01:36:58):
No, I'm good. I'm just gonna we're just not defining
terms the same way. So I'm just going to let
it go.

Speaker 4 (01:37:05):
But I just know that. You know, when you see something,
you see something you know. It's not like I didn't
see it because I wanted to see it. It just
it was there I want to see. I didn't want
to see it wing creature. Trust me, it really hurt

(01:37:25):
my life. No willingness to want to do it. I
would love to just have it forgotten, but it happened.
You know, I know what wings look like, and I
know what size kind of is, and I know it
didn't look like anything I've ever seen in a zoo
or in any of my wildlife studies. It just didn't fit.

(01:37:47):
What we saw was real. And I don't know where
it came from. I don't know what it is. I
don't know if it came from a portal or the
matrix or that. Stuff's all fine, we don't know that,
but god Olmania did nothing to do with our imagination.
At the same exact time, the trauma that I deal
with with e vent still every day is not fun.

(01:38:08):
And so for the people that have never seen anything,
just be aware there are people that are very traumatized
and that well, your words are very very powerful, and
you may not realize that because you haven't seen anything.
You don't know what it feels like, you know, to

(01:38:29):
have something really really odd happen you or witness something
really odd. And that's what I'm saying. That's the point
I want to get across. And I've never apologetic from
putting that or whether I'm talking to the people from
the Skeptical Inquire or whatever. I've had some great conversations,

(01:38:51):
but man, they use a lot of words really loose,
and it bothers me and I think they should take
a little more responsibility, you know, And they're throwing out
a lot of really harsh terms on people. Well I
know they don't mean to They're not trying to hurt people.
I know that, but they're just not kind of aware
of how powerful because they are in a position of authority. Steve,

(01:39:16):
you're in a position of authority because you're an expert
in this.

Speaker 5 (01:39:22):
I'm knowledgeable, knowledgeable expert.

Speaker 4 (01:39:25):
But which you know, people look up to you. They
if they watch, they look up to you, and they
see you on you know, in the media, and I've
seen you before in the media. They're going to take
your words to hurt.

Speaker 2 (01:39:38):
Well, I know, I know Steve didn't mean no, no,
of course that I definitely don't think anybody would do
anything on purpose. I think we should probably let Stave
say what he means by that's what that's absolutely because
I know Steve sits in a very similar camp, probably
the same camp as I do. So so yes, Steve,
you should you should talk a little bit about what

(01:39:59):
you mean.

Speaker 5 (01:40:00):
Well, Well, John Teel believed that a lot of these
people that were they're having real experiences, it was coming
from they weren't imagining things, was coming from some outside source.
He even thought that some of the possibly some of
the men in Black encounters weren't real physical encounters. They
were illusory, not hallucinations. And many of this that there

(01:40:22):
is a uh, you're the the his idea of this,
this co creation. There's a lot to support that when
you look at the way these experiences fall down, the
way they manifest uh. The Again, if you go through
the very history, these things seem to follow the general

(01:40:45):
collective belief system that's present at the time. There's always
anomalies and so forth. But it doesn't mean that people
are are lying, are making up stuff themselves.

Speaker 4 (01:40:58):
Mean, by.

Speaker 5 (01:41:00):
What was the word lose, I mean, we didn't he
didn't think that necessarily when people were having these experiences,
they were necessarily real physical experiences where where men in
black suits would show up and harass people. Sometimes that
really did happen. But it's some of these things aren't
very dream like. Uh they are not. They don't always

(01:41:21):
fall in place like real physical events. Yet something's happening
and they're really experiencing something.

Speaker 4 (01:41:30):
Yeah. Well, these these big words like illusory or well
it is it's not a common word. It isn't a
common word people here all the time. And what is
the word? Say? Pronounce it correctly, Steve, I can't.

Speaker 5 (01:41:45):
I believe it's illusory illusory?

Speaker 4 (01:41:47):
Okay, I betge. I could go interview a thousand people
and nobody would know what that meant. You know, there
was would know. And so these words and terms that
Keel may have used or whoever need to be explained.
So when you say that you really just That's what
I'm getting at. You need to explain what we you know,
what do you really mean by that word, because not

(01:42:10):
everybody knows that. We all use these things real loose
And I don't use any big words because I'm a
you know, I'm a high school dropout. I don't use
any big words.

Speaker 7 (01:42:22):
While I.

Speaker 5 (01:42:25):
Don't know, I don't know any your course, boy, i'd
be I'd be a big big deal. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:42:32):
I'm not successful because I had high education. I'm just
successful because I work my butt off, and I just
know that a lot of these these these big words
that I do hear skeptics shoes all the time.

Speaker 5 (01:42:46):
I don't imprint big words. I mean whatever you do.

Speaker 4 (01:42:49):
No, no, no, you know, I don't. I don't really
know how somebody who's interested in the paranormal or mysteries,
it's even interesting if they haven't seen anything. I've always
wondered that, how are they.

Speaker 5 (01:43:06):
I've always been intrigued, I mean.

Speaker 4 (01:43:08):
Driving their interest. Is it a belief or is it
or is it not belief?

Speaker 5 (01:43:12):
Fascination with the unknown?

Speaker 3 (01:43:14):
Yeah, well it's uh. I've looked up a long time.
I've seen things that I couldn't explain, but not to
the odd level, so that when I approach the question,
if it's something like h related to the paranormal ghosts,

(01:43:35):
I don't know anything more than the next person. If
it becomes even the swamp gas, I don't know more
about swamp gas than the next person. If it's something
that might be approached from a physical standpoint or an
astronomical standpoint, then I might I might know something. So

(01:43:56):
I tend to ask questions that uh, I kind of
restricted to that area. Mike. When I asked you, did
you hear any Was there any sound?

Speaker 4 (01:44:06):
It was a good question.

Speaker 3 (01:44:07):
Was was it moving?

Speaker 4 (01:44:10):
Uh?

Speaker 3 (01:44:12):
Well, the way you had already brought up that it
wasn't moving like the way you would expect the ordinary
physical objects. Right if you had a camera or something,
you could try to look at see what kind of
spectrum ad and something like that. But now you almost
never have that info. But I was in a c I.

Speaker 4 (01:44:32):
I was in a CI a plane called a heel
a plane once and I had to we had to
land into Hubbard had bought at Stanley Hubbard, who wants
uh ABC affiliate here in town, flew me. He wasn't
the bile. It was his pilot that he used to
work with the CIA. Flew me into O'Hare and I

(01:44:56):
had to get there really quick because I was bringing
Siberian crane eggs. We had to rush these eggs to
Russia and before they hatched, So it was a big
urgent thing. Get me to Chicago, get me to Russia
really quick, and so Pepe went in there. And the
only thing I can say that was similar with wings outstretched.

(01:45:19):
And I still don't really know the heel plane works,
but brought me over and they basically go above the
runway and they just drop right out of the sky
in a plane with the wings quite big wings too.
I'm not sure how that was. I think they tilt
their angle, but we just pushed straight down. And that's
what this did, was up high and it just dropped

(01:45:42):
straight down without stretched wings, which is why I say
it kind of seemed like it to fight physics, because
normally you'd have to glide in right if your wings
are up.

Speaker 3 (01:45:54):
I imagine in that case there was a mechanism behind that.
Maybe not one thing up people to know about. Uh
My dad spent some time with people that lost salamos
and other places that hinted that things that are not

(01:46:16):
publicly known. But they haven't told me the really any
really of the weird stuff. And they were all very
good closed mouths, so they wouldn't have if they knew it.
Even if if and if I knew them, they would
break security rules to tell me anything. But it's uh,

(01:46:38):
you would think the physical part of it, the part
I am more trained in. You think that part could
be addressable. Uh, maybe these it may not yield answers,
but it could be addressable if there was enough money.
Question and resources.

Speaker 4 (01:46:55):
One one question that I don't know, if it's talked
about enough. Certain people might attract the things just to
attract it, not from their brain, but they're just they're
attracting it somehow, you know, and strong to them, like
a steel to a magnet.

Speaker 2 (01:47:13):
Multiple experiences people who have motive. Yeah, and this is
something else talk about, right, Steve, Well.

Speaker 4 (01:47:19):
Mean event I've seen you know, we saw the one
bigfoot up on one sixty nine drying off. We saw
one here about three years ago over you know, not
terribly far from where we live, in this area where
there's a lot of sightings, and we just saw one
walking along the road and then bush ducked into a

(01:47:41):
kind of a big swampy area. It was unmistakable. What
we saw was broad daily completely out in the open,
and it was massive and it had really unique kind
of hair. We know what we saw, I mean, it
was yeah, it was shocking. But we're like, but we're
both like questioning why have we seen these things?

Speaker 3 (01:48:04):
I complained, I've complained to Dean the opposite that if
there are people who are sensitives, I seem to be
an insensitive in the sense that I've been to supposedly
haunted houses and things, and nothing's ever nothing when I'm
when I'm there.

Speaker 4 (01:48:22):
And uh, so I had. I had a guy I
knew for many years. A guy did a lot of
scientific projects with say it was Alan's first name. He
was also a pilot. He was into astronomy. I can
go on and on. He was also an environmental scientist
and often I would use him for testing certain samples. Well,

(01:48:45):
he had never seen a UFHON in his whole life.
Never in his flights. He does a lot of night flying. Nothing.
I just said, hey, Ellen, tell you what one think
we've never done. Let's get together see if that changes.
So I invited him over. I said, when you're he
doesn't live like really far, but he lives about four
hours north of me. I said, if he's coming to
the Minneapolis airport, give me a call, come out. We'll

(01:49:08):
hang out for a little bit and maybe you'll get
a chance to see a UFO because we and ivets
see him all the time. So he goes, okay, he
comes out and he gives me a call and he
comes out. He isn't even here five minutes and he
sees his first UFO and he knows what he's seen.

(01:49:29):
He's the first thing he does. Of course, he checks
all of the apps that you know, the airport apps,
this app, I mean, does everything he could possibly do.
And I'm telling him, what's going to happen to this
this UFO, and everything I said happened and it comes
right to us. And then it buzzed off and he goes,

(01:49:51):
holy crap. He goes, I'm fifty eight, blah blah blah,
and I've never seen I come over her house five
minutes and I have this sighting. And he was just dumbfounded.
And then he died about a week later.

Speaker 3 (01:50:07):
Oh well, I'd like to go join you on that,
but no, no, Yeah, he just.

Speaker 4 (01:50:14):
Dropped dead on the sidewalk coming out in the gym.
But he was a very dear friend of mine. We
did a lot of work together. I depended on him
for so much and he was just just a wonderful,
open minded guy. But he had never seen a UFO ever.
He even says Doug. Not only do I fly at
night every night when it was warm, I could sit

(01:50:34):
in my hot tub. It's one of my things I
like to do, you know, out in his backyard and
look at the stars. And he's just so he's he
was actually putting in the time, you know, and he
still had never seen anything at fifty eight and all
the flying and all of the you know, the stuffies outdoors. Yeah, yeah,

(01:50:54):
so I just thought i'd bring that story up. So
that kind of made me think, well, maybe it is
the people, you know, it could be who you're with
or or whatever. But he either imagined everything we all
all did. Everybody that was there imagined everything, or he

(01:51:15):
saw his first UFO. I'm just talking about I know
he's what he saw, but yeah, it really shocked him.

Speaker 2 (01:51:24):
I think Keel talked about people possibly being like umbrellas.
Some of you were in the field, you were more
likely to experience something as well. If you're somebody who
was a multi experience.

Speaker 4 (01:51:35):
Yeah, I don't know, no idea, but the people who
do see things, and we're not talking about UFO, there
was like some vague light in this guy. This thing
came right to us silently and and then went over
the roof of the house after it was done whatever
it did to us, and uh, it was clearly a UFO.

(01:51:57):
And I said, that's what I'm telling you. We see
these like we can hardly go a night out here
and not see them. And yes we have film and
yes we have videos of them. And I even I'm
good at what I do. I get perspective on things.
I show it moving against the roof and you know
what I mean, just a lot of people just film lights.

Speaker 3 (01:52:19):
And yeah, get the light. You can't tell what's going on.

Speaker 4 (01:52:25):
I mean, I once filmed a UFO over Forest Lake
out my window because I had a I had a
three story home on the lake overlooking uh the lake,
three on Forest Lake. And one night I come up,
I'm going to bed, and I see about five lights

(01:52:46):
on the on the above the lake, real close to
the lake, you know, not maybe up three hundred feet,
and I really only crap. And I'm like, oh my god,
I've got a pro you know, a pro camera, A
television came downstairs. I'll go grab my trypod and the
camera and you know, plus I got a huge zoom
lens on it, you know. And I think it was a.

(01:53:11):
Do you remember the the what were they called? They
were cannon? Uh lex two? Keen does that ring a bell? Canon?
Lex two? It had a big, huge lens on it.
So I go down and grab it. I'm aut of breath.
I get upstairs, I set up the tripod and I'm filming.
I'm zoomed in on it like nobody else has ever

(01:53:32):
zoomed in on it, Like it's still better than any
of the UFO what I've ever seen. And I'm zooming
in and uh, my wife is going move move, I
want to look. I want to see it too, And
so she's looking in the thing and watching it, and
all of a sudden she freaks out because she's another
another UFO came out of it. I'm like, whoa. So

(01:53:53):
I said, let me see. Oh we're going to fight
over the viewfinder. And so I'm filming and then I
see one spinning comes right out of the thing and
it goes and it takes off, and then I filmed
two more coming into it. You know, they're spinning these
little smaller objects. And I don't know how big the
ship was, but I'm estimated it was well over two

(01:54:15):
hundred feet wide. And so I filmed that whole sequence
and it's on High eight with a Canon LS two camera,
I believe Elius two, and so I get this great footage.
Did I make up what I filmed? I don't know.
I don't think so. You know, it was really there.

(01:54:36):
If I wouldn't have filmed it, Did I make it up?
I don't think so. It was you know, five lights,
and I wouldn't have seen the details of the small
craft coming out of it. But we've had so many
you know, that kind of started a whole life, and
that was God. I think I had met Stan and
Stan Friedman and showed Stan. He was real impressed with it,

(01:54:58):
but he did it seemed like he wanted to do
anything with it to make it public, which I thought
was odd.

Speaker 2 (01:55:04):
You told me an interesting stand free story once. Oh god,
I can tell you a lots of but the one way,
you way, you got a phone call from him, And
what the idea that the phone call?

Speaker 4 (01:55:16):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
That's an interesting thing. And I always wondered about that
it would come in from Bangor Air Force Base and
I always thought, well, why because I had an early
caller ID system, right, I mean stant we're friends. I
was interested in doing a doc, not honestly about him,

(01:55:39):
but a really good UFO doc, right, and one that
kind of kind of like I did, with legitimate science,
puts a lot of science to the mystery. And he
was willing to, you know, share everything from his like
even footage for the first time of a nuclear powered rockets.

(01:56:00):
So he had a lot of neat things. And there
was one time, God, I shouldn't even tell this story,
there was one time he left me a slide roll.
I don't think I was supposed to see. To this day,
I'm happy to tell anybody in private about actually two
things that happened that way. And I don't think I

(01:56:22):
was supposed to see what I saw. I swear to God,
I don't think he either he intentionally left those with
me or whatever. But these stories will blow your mind
or heary, or it.

Speaker 2 (01:56:36):
Could have been intentional if he was disinfluagal.

Speaker 4 (01:56:39):
I don't yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I mean,
I don't necessarily trust anybody, you know what I mean,
because anybody can act like your buddy has.

Speaker 2 (01:56:49):
Anybody he was seeing an age of disclosure which just
dropped on.

Speaker 4 (01:56:52):
I have not seen it yet. I looked at it
today and I thought, oh, nineteen bucks.

Speaker 3 (01:56:56):
Nice, I haven't seen it all. I have heard about
it from You're programm then.

Speaker 2 (01:57:01):
Yeah, Ian Steven and I did an amazing lead up
to It's interesting. I'm When I watched it, I was
suspicious there was intentional programming in there. Maybe I'm paranoid,
but I feel like there was intentional messaging in there.
Loue Elizondo, I believe, is one of the executive producers,
and he's clearly probably the person who's most prominent. Followed

(01:57:24):
by him would be hal Putov, who's a very interesting character.
But there was there was I don't know. I mean
I watched I was interested in it. I think anybody
interested in this topic should watch the films. Beautifully produced,
I mean it's well put together. Yeah, shocked, but it
did seem to be a very you know, intentionally leading

(01:57:44):
you along a path, kind of documentary pointing you you
know what the answer was? So so that's probably your life?

Speaker 4 (01:57:50):
Yeah, how can we ever know what's this information? Who's
you know? Stan? What me about Stan? I loved and
he was always so nice to me and we were
you know, he was always available, and you know, we
traveled around the country together and I can tell you
you know, but then I always thought, why doesn't he

(01:58:14):
talk like at his lectures, why doesn't he talk about
the Phoenix light incidents? Why doesn't he update his talk?
Why does he only talk about the Benny and Barney
Hill and you know those kinds of things. And he
kind of out and those things. He always kind of
ignored me on my advice, like why don't we do
We even flew to Phoenix to investigate that whole Phoenix

(01:58:37):
lights thing, and I didn't out with witnesses and we
did all sorts of stuff. But I was wondering why
he didn't update his lecture with new information. You know,
I don't know. I I guess I don't do lectures
for a living. He kind of did.

Speaker 2 (01:58:55):
Yeah, I saw haven't met him briefly in Australia when
he came to do a li that and it was
sold that it was in a major road too. Yeah,
it's pretty rare to be out to sell out an electure,
but you know, he was somebody who could sell out.

Speaker 4 (01:59:07):
Of love my god, he did a lecture at my
house one night. I'll tell you this really weird coincidence.
This is a weird It was a weird day.

Speaker 9 (01:59:16):
So it stands at my house and we're just kind of,
I don't know why, we were just kind of bored,
and I go, oh, I should probably call my buddy
over at the radio station, you know, over at w
c CEO Radio and get you on over there.

Speaker 4 (01:59:30):
And so I call him up and Stan had mentioned
earlier it was the Ronnie Zamora incident. Yeah, Sacora incident anniversary.
Oh that's interesting. Well, it gives us something to talk about.
So I called my buddy at who's a DJ at
the CEO. We go over there. He said, yeah, bring Stan.

(01:59:54):
Be awesome. So we run over to the downtown Minneapolis
and we go there and blah blah blah, and we're
talking about general stuff and suddenly Stan goes, yeah, it's
the anniversary of the Lonnie he's a more incident. Blah
blah blah. And the guy who's interviewing Stan think of
the coincidence. I'm going to tell you. He goes, I

(02:00:15):
was there. End's going what. He goes, oh, yeah, I
was there right when everything's still burning. And Stan's like
what and he goes, this is live on the radio
and he goes, he goes, how could you have been there?
And he goes, I was there with my sister, my

(02:00:35):
dad and my mom. We were on vacation and we
saw the smoke and the stuff coming up, and we
saw a policeman and we went there. My dad went
there to see if he needed any help with Lonnie
needed help good And I'm like, well, that's kind of
an important find. There is Stan and and you know,

(02:00:57):
I thought it was odd because Stan never interviewed after that,
so it was just, you know, you only have so
much time on the radio. It just struck me as
kind of a red flag. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:01:08):
Well, it's interesting because I think Friedman, as well respected
as he is, he pushed an awful lot of things
which to me have always been the intentional disinformation that
we know came from specific sources. Like he wrote a
book analyzing the MJ twelve documents and saying they were real.

(02:01:30):
But the MJ twelve documents come via William Moore and
Nami Shandera. William Ore we know was an asset of
the essentially the Air Force intelligence. Right, there's operation whatever
it's called.

Speaker 4 (02:01:44):
Wouldn't they wouldn't they try to turn somebody who was
that prominent.

Speaker 2 (02:01:48):
Like I'm sure the fact that we know those documents
probably came via Richard Dodie, who I've had on talking
weird back on the day, and then that Friedman later
was the person who more than anybody else to literally
write a best selling book on that. The MJ twelve
documents are real, but we can trace their movement through
Schandere William Moore to Richard dody We almost know it

(02:02:12):
was some type of weird Air Force operation. So that
that was such a big part of a big part
of Friedman's probably a good He must have spent several
years where that was his main focus, where he was
really pushing the MJ twelve documents and one of his
main I don't even know how many books he wrote.
That was certainly one of his main books, but that

(02:02:34):
we almost certainly know now whatever the reality of Oswell
and everything else is, we know where they came from.
They came from very suspicious sources.

Speaker 4 (02:02:43):
I just threw a calm and up den it, Doug,
Like I said Sunday, some of these people get too bchex,
not just and I am not accusing Stannard being a
double agent. Any I'm just saying during my time that
I knew stand and get to know them so well,
they were multiple redt many red flags, and that's all

(02:03:06):
they can say. They were red flags, and they just
make you go hmm.

Speaker 2 (02:03:11):
That's because I've never heard anybody else talk about it
with the experience that you have with him personally, Like
I thought it would be suspicious of him, but I've
never I'm I'm.

Speaker 4 (02:03:20):
Highly hyper aware of things, and I just, you know,
like most people wouldn't think, oh, why didn't he take
this DJ because he was there and he witnessed it
and want to witness that interview. Even my phone his
sister who was alive and was there too, what did
she see? That's kind of important new witnesses.

Speaker 1 (02:03:46):
I just thought it was on and.

Speaker 4 (02:03:47):
There was no follow up, like, okay, that's kind of weird.

Speaker 5 (02:03:51):
I had a chance to talk to Stanton Friedman briefly
at a Michigan paracon once. Now I had read Captured
when he wrote with Castle Martin. I had read UFO
Dynamics by Bertrad Schwartz and the interview he did with
Betty Hill in Flying Sauce and Review. But people don't

(02:04:12):
know is that there were very heavy paranormal overtones connected
with this event, especially after the main event. The things
that happened to the Hills afterwards were even more bizarre
and even you absolutely if you recaptured by Kathleen Mardin.
She was president at some of those events. So I saw,

(02:04:33):
I met Kathleen. Now I asked, I asked Stanton about
you know, because he co wrote the book. I said, Stan,
what do you think about some of the really stranger
aspects of these this encounter And he said he just said,
I don't know. Well, a couple of years later, I
was at the h with mccaloney's Military X files at
the Exeter event, I was sitting next to Kathleen Martin

(02:04:54):
and I was talking to her about Stanton Freeman. Now
this is after he's gone, and she told me, you
know he she you know, becauld Stan never deviated in
his talks from the et idea and and she said, uh,
you know, he was becoming he was coming around to
the paranormal aspect based on her experience in what she

(02:05:14):
knew about Betty and so forth. So that's something people
don't know. But yeah, but if if you read, if
you read the captured. There are just just some very
I won't go into it all, but there's some very
very strange events that happened afterwards. And it's also confirmed
by again, Uh Britard Short's book.

Speaker 4 (02:05:34):
Did you just name one of those weird events? Uh?

Speaker 5 (02:05:38):
Well, good lord.

Speaker 7 (02:05:40):
Uh.

Speaker 5 (02:05:41):
They had experiencing classic haunting phenomena in their in their house,
the clock stopped, uh at the same time when Betty,
at the same time when Barney Hill had died.

Speaker 2 (02:05:52):
Uh.

Speaker 5 (02:05:53):
They uh.

Speaker 7 (02:05:54):
Uh.

Speaker 5 (02:05:55):
They suggested to Betty. This was the same man that
suggested to them, uh, they should seek regressive hypnosis to
try and uncover their memories. He said, I think Robert Holman.
I think he said, look, Betty, you had kind of
a rapport with the leader on this craft. Why don't
you try to contact them again to see if you

(02:06:16):
can have another experience through telepathy. Well, nobody really expect
anything of it, and she didn't either. But what she
would do is go on her back porch at night
and send a message out to the aliens we would
like to meet again, and so forth. But the thing
is they couldn't come and land there because it was
too congested, so they would have had to go to

(02:06:39):
her parents' house about a half hour away, so apparently
she's giving him the location or whatever. She'd go out
every night at nine o'clock for several weeks, again not
expecting anything, and then one day her father called her
up and said, Betty, you need to get over here.
So she goes over to his house and he said

(02:07:00):
was being his sister in law living right nearby with
the same last name as her parents. One night, and
the idea was they were supposed to come to the
house and contact them somehow, but anyway, I don't know
exactly what she was putting out there. So they came
to the She woke up one night and saw a

(02:07:20):
bright light, thought maybe it's lightning or whatever. She looks
out side he's a classic UFO. And then she hears
a knock on her door, like a knock knock knock,
and she's petrified because her house is a little bit
off the beaten track. She can't imagine who would be
be coming there. She doesn't get out of bed. So
she tells this to her brother in law. He tells

(02:07:42):
it to Betty, and so Betty goes back and she
sends out another you know what, I can't imagine what
she said. You guys can come all the way from
Zada Reticuli, but you can't find the right damn house.
So she does it again. And so a few weeks
go by and her apparently her parents have agreed to this,

(02:08:02):
probably not expecting anything, but they're they're lying in bed
one night and her mother wakes up and hears a knock, knock,
knock at the door. Oh, we lost Dean for a minute.
We'll wait wait till Dean comes back here.

Speaker 4 (02:08:20):
Yeah, that's interesting.

Speaker 3 (02:08:23):
This is also.

Speaker 5 (02:08:25):
In the book. Yeah, let's set we'll we'll wait for
for Dean. This is again captured by Kathleen Martin and
uh Stan Friedman and uh again if you if you
can find the book Ufo Dynamics by doctor Bertode Schwartz.
Uh A lot of times it goes to third party
sellers and it's very very expensive. But uh uh. Also

(02:08:47):
there's that was a three part interview with Betty Hill
which kind of parallels that. That was in Flying Saucer
Review in the seventies and they had you know, they
had uh uh you for men in black, well, they
had men in green, they had these A lot of
this is just obviously, uh, government intervention or or snooping around.

Speaker 4 (02:09:09):
Well, what do you think the men in black were, Steve,
let me, let me.

Speaker 5 (02:09:15):
There's more than one answer to that. But they would
they would get these guys in green coveralls coming saying
we got to read your meter, and and sometimes two
would come in the same day or or several a week,
and so they she checked out and found out that
the actual guys that checked their meters wore blue cover alls.
So you had some people snooping around and messing around
with them. But uh, uh Wishtine could get back here.

(02:09:39):
But uh well, uh yes, I know we have having
some here we go, here we go, So anyway to
continue that, Uh So they she's lying in bed, here's
the knocking, and uh it's petrified. She doesn't move. She
finally wakes u up, her husband, and so they hear

(02:10:02):
this knocking. Then all of a sudden, there's this huge
explosion sound, and they forget all about aliens coming to visit.
And he thinks of maybe the first is blown up
or something runs downstairs, checks out through the house. Everything's intact,
and just like his sister in law, they did not
answer the door. Now, my if this is true. My

(02:10:24):
theory is that this might have been more like a
poltergeist kind of an experience rather than an actual alien
a zata reticulan knocking at the door. I mean, can't
these guys just teleport or something?

Speaker 4 (02:10:36):
So?

Speaker 5 (02:10:37):
Uh, you know, this is the some of the bizarre
stuff that was that happened to and just even a
bigfoot connection with with Betty Hill, Uh, I heard any
of these well this was I forget what exactly what
ariat was, but she was out with a friend of
her somewhere. I Neither had had been reports and they

(02:10:58):
were They actually heard the growling and the commotion and
they then didn't actually see it. There's another incident where
her she owned some property. Her nephew and niece went
to camp on it. Uh, they heard some strange noises.
You know, Dean, you've heard the like the like the
car door slamming and metal on metal in some of

(02:11:21):
these paranormal instances.

Speaker 2 (02:11:22):
After that, dog Piloides talks about that as well, with
some disappearances.

Speaker 5 (02:11:26):
Right and also and the next day they found kind
of a weird bigfootprint, but it was one of the
three toad ones like Stan Gordon found in southwestern Pennsylvania.
So anyway, there's there's much more to this, but uh, it's.

Speaker 4 (02:11:43):
Just you're gonna have to get that book, because yeah.

Speaker 5 (02:11:45):
Get the book. And if you can find uh uh
the uh you can. You can get some of those
flying sauce of reviews for a few bucks each from Amazon.
So if you can find the the Schwartz interviews that
it gives you some even more detail.

Speaker 4 (02:12:02):
Yeah, I was just eBay can be a great source
for old books too, but.

Speaker 5 (02:12:06):
These are just electronics and get them on the kindle
or whatever and get them right away.

Speaker 4 (02:12:11):
Well, what I noticed so much about Stan he stuck
to a narrative and that was it. There was no changing,
you know, and it was a good narrative. It was
very pro uf oh and I was very happy to
he was doing that. But I just often wondered why
the narrative never budgets. And he'd been doing that same
narrative since forever, like, you know, way way back. God,

(02:12:34):
I would imagine, does anybody know when he first started lecturing?

Speaker 2 (02:12:39):
That was probably in the seventies, I would have guessed
in the seventies too, And he.

Speaker 4 (02:12:43):
Never missed that narrative.

Speaker 5 (02:12:45):
It was exact I actually saw him on a local
television show that it was either late sixties or early seventies.
It was called the Lou Gordon Program in the Detroit area.
I don't know if you remember seeing that Horus at all,
but he was, uh, mostly political guy, but he had

(02:13:06):
uh Stanton Freeman on uh, Philip Class and Betty Hill
in the studio one night.

Speaker 4 (02:13:12):
Philip the skeptic.

Speaker 5 (02:13:14):
Yeah, oh yeah, the the nasty guy. He was horrible disposition.

Speaker 3 (02:13:21):
I did meet him.

Speaker 4 (02:13:23):
He was not.

Speaker 3 (02:13:29):
Well. He was He would tell stories that were private
stories about people that shouldn't have been told. I was
what I thought, but I was interested in in uh uh.
He was interesting, but he didn't. We actually was at

(02:13:53):
an event on our campus. I met him there, but
he was he had his story too all set up
to don't.

Speaker 4 (02:14:05):
Yeah, I'm sure that his narrative never changed either, you know,
it just stayed the same. And that bugged me about Stan.
I'm sorry it didn't. I'm just I'm not afraid to
say it. It bugged me and raised red flags like
why does he talk about some of the I mean,
the Phoenix Lights was a huge incident. Hello, let's get

(02:14:25):
it into the lecture. Here, there's footage, there's witnesses. We
interviewed me and stand together interviewed witnesses and it was fantastic.
You know, it had been seen by air by by
the governor saw the damn thing. You know, what else
do you want? It was a great thing. And yad

(02:14:48):
could have been still could have been flares, I guess,
but been pretty much proven it wasn't because it blocked
out the stars. I don't think flares block out stars.

Speaker 3 (02:14:58):
Amused me though, that, uh, go back to the start
of this thread. That so Corro ended up being there
where the v l A was built.

Speaker 4 (02:15:09):
What is the b l A?

Speaker 3 (02:15:11):
A very large array radio the ones you see in
the movie.

Speaker 2 (02:15:14):
Contact oh oh.

Speaker 3 (02:15:18):
On the planes there. Of course, it's a very isolated
place from radio interference.

Speaker 2 (02:15:23):
That's why I've that's why I've been out there. I
actually went there. One of my best friends from Sydney,
very different my Bridge of five you're watching. Her husband
was an astrophysicist who moved to the New Mexico University
of Socorro because he was working on that array. So
that's why I've got to.

Speaker 4 (02:15:40):
That is that array right where Lonnie saw, Yeah, very
close when you say close. Do you mean a mile
you mean VIVDV Do you mean it's.

Speaker 3 (02:15:51):
I don't know. It's to the to the west of
the town ways, but I don't know where the soco.

Speaker 4 (02:15:58):
The fact it is in the same town Socorro well.

Speaker 3 (02:16:01):
So curl out west being the closest town. But they
deliberately put the the antenna is away from any any
buildings that they tell about. There's also a nice astronomical
I see them between the v l A and the
city now with a lot of historical telescopes, just for

(02:16:22):
those who are interested in telescopes. But it's a beautiful
place to visit. And if you do get out there,
you go from the city, you drive up into the
mountains and you go west and to the plains and
and that's where the b l A is.

Speaker 4 (02:16:40):
What do you think Why do you think Lonnie got
so much attention? I mean he got attention from NASA,
from I believe, the FBI, and you know, so many
of these three letter agencies. Why do you think that,
Because there's been other cops that have seen UFOs and creatures,
why do you think Lonnie so much attention? I don't know.

Speaker 3 (02:17:04):
Dean may have a better idea Dean.

Speaker 2 (02:17:07):
I think part of the reason was that he was
a police officer, so he's, you know, somebody of a
degree of respectable authority. And there were other contact reports
from other police officers at the time. What's the one
stay with the or was.

Speaker 4 (02:17:23):
It because they could easily come up with a parallel
story of NASA testing some lander that that that's right,
that's what I that's what I'm pointing at me. I
think they gave him that that attention to debunk that.

Speaker 3 (02:17:39):
That doesn't make any sense at Lander's story. It's not
how the land it was arranged, not how it would
be worked. The lander had to be a It just
doesn't make any sense.

Speaker 4 (02:17:53):
But it even put out in my mind, I remember
that story I just put out in my mind.

Speaker 5 (02:17:58):
I'm like, well, there there were many stories like that
at the time. If I remember apro the Lorenzos. They
all kinds of uh close encounters of the third kind
landings seeing with some kind of entity in conjunction with
the craft, not really the they weren't really getting into

(02:18:18):
abductions at that time, but these were kind of well,
I don't know if they were plentiful, but there were
many that were chronicled. So and this was this came
about at the same time. So there were you know,
there was the uh Cisco Grove incident.

Speaker 1 (02:18:32):
Uh uh.

Speaker 5 (02:18:34):
Of course flat Woods was quite a bit before.

Speaker 2 (02:18:36):
That land incident that was kind of a weird lady
that was like late seventies.

Speaker 4 (02:18:41):
I know NASA debunk that one tried to debunk it.

Speaker 5 (02:18:45):
But the Lorenzos, the you know, the Nightcap uh a
keyhose organization, the National Investigations Committee in earlier phenomena, they
would talk about things flying in the sky all day long,
but they didn't like to talk about landings, and they
really didn't like to talk of out the entities that
Lorenzos just seemed a full full scheme ahead, and so

(02:19:05):
did Frank Edwards. Really in some of his anthologies they
covered these, uh, these interesting cases, and I think Socorro
was just one of those.

Speaker 4 (02:19:12):
Uh.

Speaker 5 (02:19:13):
And again Dean pointed out that this this wasn't just
somebody they could pass off as a hay seed way
out and you know, some country bumpkin or whatever. This
was a not that you know, country bumpkins haven't experienced
things that are are credible as well. But he was
a credible police officer that was really stunned by what

(02:19:33):
he experienced.

Speaker 4 (02:19:34):
Did that did that story and I don't know this.
Did that story end up in blue book at all? Uh?

Speaker 5 (02:19:42):
Probably the blue book they were in on it. Of
course there was h Well, Heinech was photos I think,
and Ray Stanford was another one.

Speaker 4 (02:19:52):
What was the official blue book conclusion? I wonder, Oh,
no idea, I'm gonna look at it. I'm gonna look
at it.

Speaker 5 (02:19:59):
Put it down as we of the unknowns, you know
they did.

Speaker 4 (02:20:02):
I just I want to look it up. I'm just curious.

Speaker 2 (02:20:05):
It's one of the things we forget though, because so
much of euthology, particularly posts you know, post the heels
and post your right Steve where where apro started looking
at these reports even when Nightcap was still had a
policy of pretty much dismissing any contact reports because of
the contact these people like Georgia Damski they thought dirty

(02:20:26):
the waters. There was a long period where respectable euthology
would not look at a report which involved an actual
being coming out of the craft. And one of the
things I discovered while I've been making the Ray Palmer
documentary is that the great early feud of euthology was
between Nightcap and Raymond Palmer. I didn't even know about

(02:20:48):
this feud. It's been written out of the history books
for most point most parts. And that's an encounter that happens.
What triggered it was an encounter that happened in Wisconsin
at Eagle River where Steve very familiar with this case,
and Dug and Horace you both might be as well.
And that's when Joe Simonton, a farmer, had an encounter
with these beings that asked him for water who came

(02:21:10):
out of the UFO to make pancakes. And it sounds
so ridiculous, it does, but the local judge took him seriously.
And the local judge happened to be a member of Nightcap,
so he forwarded these things to Nightcap. Wasn't happy with
his response at all, contacted somebody else who happened to
live in Wisconsin, Raymond Palmer. So Raymond Palmer, who had

(02:21:31):
the only new stand Flying Saucer magazine at the top
in the world forget about in America, called Flying Sources,
wrote a cover piece, an article which the whole the
magazine had a bunch of stuff about this case. But
the cover story was essentially saying Nightcap didn't do anything
and implying that Nightcap was probably some kind of intelligence

(02:21:53):
or air force front. And it all blew out of
the handling of the Joe Simonton case. And I since
gone back and bought the I think it was called
the UFO Investigator whatever. Nightcap's official newsletter was rare as
Hen's teeth now. And there's this flame war happening between
Nightcap and happening between Ray Palmer in the pages of

(02:22:13):
both of their magazines just about and it's based over
the approach to contact, the approach to how you deal
with the story about somebody who said they've seen or
had a contact with an extraterrestrial and it blew out
of this weird Joe Simonson case just down the road
from me.

Speaker 5 (02:22:29):
Really, Baycap didn't get along with anybody, and it was
that James Moseley used to love to tweet Nightcap. But
there's another aspect of the Joe Symington case you're familiar with.
Chad lewis an investigator from Yeah Very Much Sorry, Loved You,
and he has been in touch with some people and
I don't know the specifics, but they said that Simonton

(02:22:52):
had other experiences afterwards, but he just shut up because
of the all the negative publicity he got with the
first first round of of whatever whatever happened there, and
it's you know, there was also it was an article
published in Beyond magazine that judged and they published the
interview and I think Barker did too with with Joe Simonton,

(02:23:18):
and the judge again was was kind of familiar with it.
He knew Simonton apparently and thought he was a credible guy.
So but he did say, you know, kind of tongue
in cheek. He said, Joe, what do these guys look
like anyway, little green men? And Joe said, no, Judge,
they were kind of swarthy, like Italians, and that that

(02:23:40):
parallels with stuff that Keel was discovering that he talked
about in Trojan Horse, where a lot of these landings,
this is before the Grays came in and messed up everything. Uh,
there were there were landings of people that looked like
actually like some of the some of the classic men
of Black reports. They were. Theople would see these guys

(02:24:02):
and they weren't maybe terily sophisticated in the way they
presented it. They'd say, well, they look kind of like
kind of European dark foreign types or whatever, but they
kind of paralleled with this for they Italian. And then
he pulls out this and he talked about it in
one of his lectures too, General Spats, one of the

(02:24:23):
big generals of World War Two. In nineteen forty eight,
during a press conference, Ashally said, there's no truth to
the rumor that Spaniards are flying flying saucers, or that
flying saucers are coming from Spain. And the context the
way it pealed that it was that perhaps some people

(02:24:44):
were seeing this type of individual or antity or whatever
stepping out of these crafts. And so you get this
bizarre parallel that kind of flows a little bit into
again some of the alleged Bent and Black encounters. Uh Simonton,
and again you've got the parallel with like Jacques vuilet

(02:25:05):
in Passport to Mogonia. I mean, Simonton is just an
updated you know, if if that had happened one hundred
or two hundred years earlier, earlier, they would have said
Joe had an encounter with the fairies, even though they
showed up in a strange metallic chariot, so strange, and
here they're they're cooking that he's looking inside this that

(02:25:27):
they're an indicating they want water, and they do the
change with the with the cookies or pancakes, whatever you
want to call them. They're cooking something on a flameless
grille in this little craft, this this space pod. Don't
they have freeze dried food?

Speaker 7 (02:25:42):
You know?

Speaker 5 (02:25:42):
Don't they have tang like the astronaut's head.

Speaker 4 (02:25:44):
I mean, well, you know, the best question to ever ask?
And I asked U like an abductee interview, that was
an interview I was doing. But I asked her, you're
saying it. You've been on these ships all the time.
I said, well, where do you go to the bathroom?
And where do they go to the bathroom? I swear
to god. She said in sawdust? And I just lost it. Yeah,

(02:26:09):
that's putting somebody on the spot. That's a group.

Speaker 5 (02:26:12):
This guy didn't even have room for sawdust.

Speaker 4 (02:26:16):
Anyhow. I mean, who's gonna ask such a question?

Speaker 2 (02:26:19):
I did, Yeah, well somewhat telling, I think, I mean.

Speaker 4 (02:26:27):
Is that a question anybody ever asked that people should?

Speaker 5 (02:26:33):
Doctor Frank claimed that he uh used the bathroom on
Valiant Thoris invisible spaceship outside of Washington, d C. But
that's another story.

Speaker 4 (02:26:45):
And what was what was the restroom?

Speaker 5 (02:26:47):
Like, well, I don't know, but they they knew he
he's the guy that claimed that he met Valiant Thor
in the Pentagon. Very strange. Uh, this story is crazy,
but it could almost be believable. A Valiant Thor was
supposed to be of Aducion, by the way. But then
and you think, well, God, maybe maybe this guy was

(02:27:08):
a plant. Maybe maybe Frank was telling the truth about this.
And then the second part of the story is he
goes aboard Valiant Thor's invisible spaceship again on the outskirts
of Washington, d C. And during their conversation he's got
to use the latrae and they know telepathically this poor
guy's got to go, so they tell him where to go,
and I don't Oh, I can think of remember two

(02:27:30):
thousand and one when doctor Haywood Floyd reads the instructions
for the zero gravity toilet. I think maybe that was
a replay of that.

Speaker 4 (02:27:41):
Roger Williams just said sawdust would be the rarest substance
in the universe, and he is absolutely or absolutely correct. Yeah,
but where they exactly what would be the rarest? In fact,
that's a that's a fact that's been spouted that it
would be the rare substance, far more rare than diamonds.

Speaker 3 (02:28:05):
I hadn't thought of that, but you're right, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:28:09):
You know, gentlemen, this has been the longest talking we.

Speaker 4 (02:28:15):
How because if we cared, Dean, do.

Speaker 3 (02:28:19):
You have any listeners left? At this point?

Speaker 2 (02:28:24):
Is i'man I go viral, my longest talking with and
I couldn't think of more of three more knowledgeable gentlemen
who have done then Susie of course had knowledgeable lady
who had who had to clock out because.

Speaker 4 (02:28:39):
I'm just I just feel fortunate, literally, I mean that,
Steve and Horrors. I really am glad I've met you
guys and love to you know, bring you on and
we can just talk about I'm sure we agree on
ninety nine percent of everything. I just yeah, and even
that me and I'm finding myself going, oh, this woman, uh,

(02:29:02):
you know, mentioned sawdust and she might have been absolutely
She answered it instantly too, which I thought was weird.
She might be absolutely, you know, correcting what she said,
or it's you know whatever. But where I have a
problem as just and these are not like what I
consider witnesses. They're just people that are public that are

(02:29:26):
claiming a lot of you know, crazy things. You know,
I was kidnapped when I was twelve and raised into
the space program and you know all that kind of stuff,
And I don't know, I mean, who am I to
say they're they're not being forthright? But I tend to raises.
I go buy the red flag thing, right, you know,

(02:29:47):
you get so many red flags with me. Eventually I'm
going no, I'm just walking away.

Speaker 2 (02:29:52):
That's why Keil like the Silent Contact days, right, stay, yes,
fascinated with these people, didn't seek publicity.

Speaker 5 (02:29:59):
Yeah, and I'm not going to open up on another topic,
but for food for thought, the silent contact these parallel
the so called hungry ghosts that Joe Fisher writes about
in the Siren Call of the Hungry Ghosts.

Speaker 4 (02:30:18):
Yeah, what is the hungry ghost Steve?

Speaker 3 (02:30:22):
There was.

Speaker 5 (02:30:24):
Joe Fisher was in contact with a medium. Several people
were and over a period of time, they were supposedly
contacting dead World War Two pilots, a woman supposedly he
was in contact with over several generations, and they would
get like the silent contact ease, they would get all
kinds of information. Some of it was very legitimate. He

(02:30:45):
went to England and Greece to prove that this stuff
was right. He found some of it was dead on accurate,
and some of it was total bs, just like the
trickster aspect of the silent contact these but will have
will have to leave it there because, like Dean said,
we can't go on before in the morning and I

(02:31:05):
need my beauty sleep.

Speaker 4 (02:31:07):
Yeah we can, Dean, Yeah we can't.

Speaker 1 (02:31:08):
Dean.

Speaker 4 (02:31:10):
You guys don't know what you're messing with. I could
do these things. I could be here till four and
I would enjoy every minute of it.

Speaker 2 (02:31:18):
So I saw somebody in Chet say another three hour
to a dog.

Speaker 4 (02:31:22):
Yeah, I know. If there wasn't time, I would. I
would love to do a twelve hour podcast because you know,
I think you know, you all get loosened up even.

Speaker 5 (02:31:34):
More and you have a dog after a three hour tour,
the weather starts getting rough.

Speaker 4 (02:31:40):
Yeah, I know, I know, and our and our prostates
all go. You need to go pee, you need to
go pee.

Speaker 5 (02:31:47):
I know I know somebody that does, but I'm not
going to mention his name.

Speaker 2 (02:31:52):
You know, I've been on shows where they have a
break so people can go potty break, which is probably
the way you would do it, you know. I think
it was maybe Texas front poet or show chose.

Speaker 4 (02:32:03):
So so okay, I'm gonna propose this, and I will
invite you guys, if you're willing to do it, to
do and you can take breaks to do a long,
long podcast. Dean, would you ever be up for a
marathon podcast? As it's some really great thing. You guys
are great thinkers, and just get some great conversationalists that

(02:32:24):
you know whatever when just let the conversation go any
damn direction and let it go.

Speaker 5 (02:32:31):
I've got some fresh.

Speaker 4 (02:32:35):
So I would propose at least from like seven at
night Central till at least midnight Central. Wow, and you
can you guys can, Guys can drop off if they
have to.

Speaker 2 (02:32:48):
Let's do it while my mother is visiting, so there's
someone it can be put to bed by.

Speaker 4 (02:32:54):
Because yeah, because you were lucky enough, you got the
host to yourself tonight.

Speaker 2 (02:33:02):
Well, my mom, no, Chloe ended up getting sick. I
don't know if you were there earlier. She was meant
to go to a mom so I was. She was
meant to go to her grandparents, and I was then
going to take my mom out to a restaurant for Thanksgiving,
so I didn't have to cook. And then Chloe was
sick this morning and so she didn't go to her grandparents,
so she's here and I didn't get to take my
mom out to Thanksgiving dinner. I didn't have any turkey

(02:33:24):
or anything here, so I went to the gas station,
got a chicken pizza to a Thanksgiving dinner.

Speaker 4 (02:33:31):
That's supervising. That's pretty good. Anyhow would you guys be
willing to do that? See?

Speaker 3 (02:33:38):
Sure for if you think I'm helpful?

Speaker 4 (02:33:41):
Oh god, yes, it'd be awesome. It'd be fun.

Speaker 5 (02:33:44):
Look, I make a dollar over a minimum wage, so
that's good.

Speaker 2 (02:33:49):
I was a great joy having you all here. Thanks,
thanks to all of you for joining me.

Speaker 3 (02:33:54):
Thanks, oh yes, thank you.

Speaker 2 (02:33:58):
Until I get to talk to you you all again, gentlemen,
hopefully on Doug's Marathon podcast episode, which he's working on now.

Speaker 4 (02:34:07):
Well, I'm the we're thinking New Year's Eve.

Speaker 2 (02:34:10):
That might be hard. I might be that might be
a harder date for me than but I'll drop in.

Speaker 4 (02:34:16):
So we're thinking we having to say that doing New
Year's Eve.

Speaker 2 (02:34:19):
I will definitely drop in. I might be able to
stay for the whole thing, but I will definitely drop in.
Yeah that we'll all for. But yeah, So I was
doing my normal wind down until I get to talk
to you three gentlemen again, which hopefully will be soon,
hopefully on Doug's New Year's Eve podcast, And until I
get to talk to everybody else out there, which will

(02:34:41):
be same weird time, same weird network, the Untold Radio
Network next week Thursday at nine pm Central. Please Happy
Thanksgiving and keep it weird.