African Proverbs & Biblical Wisdom with Chris Morehouse

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:33):
And at.

Speaker 2 (00:48):
La.

Speaker 3 (01:45):
Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, whichever the case may be.
For all of you listening out there across the crazy
planet Earth, Welcome to the season finale of Vestiges after Dark,

(02:06):
and I am your host, Bishop Brian will Let, coming
to you lie from the deep woods of Western Georgia.
On this June third, twenty twenty five. Tonight, we talk
about the wisdom of Africa, particularly the proverbs that relate

(02:32):
to scriptural messages, things that demonstrate a parallel between two
seemingly different cultures. And we have a wonderful new guest tonight,
Chris Morehouse, to talk about it. I think this should
be something that we haven't done before, something new and exciting,
and I can't wait to share it all with each

(02:54):
and every one of you, So don't go anywhere. Well,

(03:52):
hello everybody, once again, I am your host, Bishop Ryan
will Let here with my co host Jamie wolf Hey,
and this is it the season finale minus two episodes.
You know, we lost them to technical issues and everything
else going on this season that should all be resolved
by the time we entered the next season, and even

(04:12):
the summer specials should be better because we are going
out with a good one. But we should have fiber.
We should have fiber the next time we do a show,
so that that will fix everything. I think that will
fix everything. Yeah, God Willing is right. So, uh, it's
been a great season and we've had some wonderful guests
and the good news is that you're not missing any

(04:34):
of the guests that we had set up for you.
There was really only one that we had to reschedule
for outside the season, and and and she was good
with coming back for or or coming on I should
say for the summer special. So we will have a
full docket. Everybody that was set up for this year
will have a show this year. So it's not so bad.

Speaker 2 (04:57):
You know.

Speaker 3 (04:57):
We got we got around it, and I try to
leave all all the ways at least a couple episodes
open just in case we have problems, and.

Speaker 4 (05:05):
We got we got to quite a few different subjects
and new guests that we've never talked about. So kudos
to Brandon for sett.

Speaker 2 (05:10):
All that up.

Speaker 3 (05:11):
Yeah, we definitely need to give Brandon a big thank
you for for that because it's a lot of work.
I believe me. I know I used to do it,
and uh, it can be tough to find reliable people
to show up, and that was it. That was what
We had. One guest that didn't show up this season,
but you know, one out of all the ones we
booked is not too bad and that doesn't happen too

(05:33):
too often. But it's been a good season and a
lot of topics that we've never covered before, so really
exciting to do and more coming up in the fall,
so you don't definitely want to miss it. Make sure
you subscribe to the channel, and you know YouTube's the
best place, of course, because that's where all the action is.

(05:54):
So anyway, joining us from Australia, we have other Chris Yates,
how are you doing tonight, father on this season finale?

Speaker 5 (06:05):
Yeah, I'm good. Hey, good to see back Jamie.

Speaker 6 (06:08):
So yeah, we're kind of obviously like in Australia, we're
transitioning to winter, so it's sort of we're kind of
opposite mood flows.

Speaker 3 (06:17):
Yeah, it must be weird because yeah.

Speaker 6 (06:21):
It feels like kind of hibernation seasons to me. I
still feel exactly so. But I'm pleased to see that
Brandon and I coordinated today because he's got a nice,
a nice stuffed mallard in the background there and I've
got one of.

Speaker 3 (06:36):
My Yes, I noticed that. I noticed that Doug lads.

Speaker 5 (06:44):
Outside side.

Speaker 3 (06:46):
Yes, my two favorite birds to eat.

Speaker 5 (06:52):
Absolutely.

Speaker 4 (06:55):
My my, my pond. But they were taken most likely.

Speaker 6 (07:05):
Okay, because it was now in England, people thought pheasant
was like, you know, aristocratic food and expensive and all that.
But I grew up on the edges of Manchester where
you know, I mean, pheasant's cheaper than chicken.

Speaker 3 (07:22):
You know, it's funny. It's the same thing with like
think about you know, all throughout the Victorian era, you know,
Christmas goose was the was the thing because it was
the cheap food.

Speaker 7 (07:34):
Right.

Speaker 3 (07:34):
Turkey was impossible. Only the rich could get turkey, right,
and now it's like you can get a turkey for
like twenty five bucks, but a goose is one hundred
and twenty five bucks. It's like it's the way it goes,
the same thing with lobster. You know, it was prisoner food.
I mean that was just basically like yeah.

Speaker 5 (07:52):
It merchant seamen.

Speaker 6 (07:54):
It was just like what they when they were important
because nobody wanted to eat them.

Speaker 3 (07:57):
Right.

Speaker 4 (07:57):
Look here in the South we got oxtail. Yeah, you know,
that was throwaway food. That was slave food. Oxtails are ex.

Speaker 5 (08:05):
The reason that I blame TV chefs. I blame TV
chefs for all of this.

Speaker 6 (08:11):
Like the cheapest fish in England used to be John Dory, right,
and then all of a sudden, Rick Stein John Dorry
do this. Now John Dory is the most expensive fish
you can buy in England.

Speaker 4 (08:22):
Definitely probably an influence.

Speaker 3 (08:24):
Well they do it. It's it creates a false scarcity
everything else. But you know, here in the South, you know, barbecue,
which is basically it comes to us in the current form,
is what the slaves ate and h the reason that
they did barbecue, they did barbecue and still do barbecue

(08:45):
so well, is because that's what the slave owners would
would would throw them. They'd have the big roasts.

Speaker 4 (08:51):
And then they cook it low and slowly to get
it to tenderize.

Speaker 3 (08:55):
And now, I mean, I don't think there's anybody that
would choose a roast over rack of ribs.

Speaker 8 (09:01):
You know.

Speaker 4 (09:01):
It's like I do both.

Speaker 3 (09:02):
Well, I know, but I mean, let's face that ribs
are damn good. The bone, yeah, you know, so it's
like I'd be like, hey, give me the ribs, you
can have the russ absolutely all right, joining us also
from Tennessee. We have Brandon mylem How you doing tonight, Brandon,
I'm pretty good.

Speaker 9 (09:22):
Like I said the chat, I'm kind of disappointed the
season's already over, but I think for your health and
your mental well being, we shouldn't get a whole lot
more scheduled.

Speaker 3 (09:32):
Yeah, well, I mean it was a shorter winter spring
season than usual. Typically we have closer to fifteen episodes.
This year, it just I think with the with the
late easter, you know, and the technical issues we lost.
You know, we lost some of it, but you know, hey,

(09:54):
it's the way it goes. We'll, you know, we'll have
more coming. But there is we were looking. There is
always a vestage every month of the year. There's not
always one every week, but there's one every month of
the year. So there'll be a summer special in July.
July eighth, I think is the next one, and then
there'll be another one on August nineteenth, I think it is.

(10:15):
So there's two summer specials and then in the end
of September we come back again for the fall season. Now,
that's always a smaller season, but you know, we usually
can get at least eight or ten episodes in I think,
so it's not so bad when you think about it.
And look, I mean, it felt like we just finished
January and now here we are in June.

Speaker 4 (10:33):
You know, well, after we got through seventy five days
of January years fast after that.

Speaker 3 (10:39):
It really did feel like sometime.

Speaker 4 (10:41):
Slowed down the first month and then it's been a whirlwindsday.

Speaker 3 (10:44):
Really did that. January was long, and then now it's like,
here we are, it's June. It's June. It's crazy. So anyway,
you know, well whenever we're we rest, but we're over
entirely gone. I was telling Jamie, it's like, if I
think I said this before, if I could just come
in and sit down at the microphone and start talking,
I could do this every night of the week. But

(11:06):
you know, having to engineer it. I mean, I'm I'm
willing to I'm gonna pull my hair out. I'm gonna
you know, it's just it's too much. It's just too much.
So anyway, let's get started with questions from the ether?
What do you have for us tonight, Brandon.

Speaker 9 (11:22):
So this first one, it's a kind of a double
whammy question. The first is within the biblical context, has
God always been understood as omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent. And
the second question is is there a tradition within the
narrative of Abraham and Isaac where Abraham did go through
but sacrifice sick.

Speaker 3 (11:43):
I mean, these are things that were, you know, speculated
upon and developed into mass consciousness over time. I mean,
I don't think these were were explicitly stated at any point,
but that came about much much later with the development
of or it should say, the integration of Greek philosophy

(12:07):
with Judeo Christian theology, so you know, but they were
vaguely understood to be these things. I mean, you know,
it was very clear that you're dealing with a God
that had omnipotence. I mean, I think that's implied by
most of what's in the Old Testament. Omnipresence is also

(12:29):
somewhat implied because I mean, God's always there, omniscient, well,
he seems to always know everything, right, So I think
it's implied, not maybe explicitly stated in those terms, but
it's definitely something that developed into the more modern sophisticated
philosophy that we applied to theology today. And as far

(12:50):
as your second question goes, there are there are texts
within the mid Rash that do explore alternative out comes
to the Abraham Isaac sacrifice. It's not obviously authoritative in
a canonical sense, but they you know, the cool thing

(13:12):
I think about Jewish theologians is that they were never
afraid to explore. They were always willing to kind of
step outside of the categories and the boxes that we
tend to put ourselves in with religion. There, they've always
been really good at that, and they're really good at
that today. But you know, overall, yeah, I mean, because

(13:33):
Jewish understanding of the Old Testaments very different than how
the typical Christian tends to understand it. We tend to,
even in the Catholic Church, tend to take more of
a historical approach to it. The Jewish people tend to
look at it more as as story lessons that are

(13:54):
to be taught through a literary device. And so all
characters and references and events that take place in the
Old Testament are literary devices to convey deep theological meanings.
And I think that you know, that's been lost a

(14:14):
lot in Christianity. I mean, of course, you know, sophisticated
Catholic and Orthodox theologians understand this. But you know, the
further away you get from that core, the worse it gets.
And I've even known Catholics that do look at the
Old Testament and purely historical terms, and they're fully expecting

(14:35):
to find Noah's Ark out there. I mean, you know,
I think that's kind of silly. Uh. And there's people
that are still looking, and there's people that claim they
found it, and.

Speaker 4 (14:43):
That satellite image does look like a boat, and it
meets it meets the parameters set forth in the O
the one on our.

Speaker 5 (14:57):
But you know, correlation is not necessary.

Speaker 6 (15:00):
I mean, there's there's there are going to be dehydrated
ship rex all over the place.

Speaker 4 (15:05):
It's interesting, it's interesting.

Speaker 6 (15:07):
I mean, it's Noah's Ark, right, But I kind of
I think there's a connection by this way, by the way,
between these two things, even though it doesn't seem so.
And it's along lines of what you're saying, like my
approach to the old One, not my approach and approach
to theology which Tom's acquis was was was was which
thetumistic tradition says you should take things to the limit.

(15:30):
So in the case of God. I mean, you know,
we all know the sort of classical unmoved mover, the
uncreated creator that you know, you take it to its
logical conclusion, without any of the biblical revelation or any
other prophetic revelation, just the philosophical idea of a god.

Speaker 5 (15:51):
If there is a God, then.

Speaker 6 (15:55):
That presumes there can only be one, because if something
is equal to God, then you then there's no God.
And so that's where omnipotence omnissians comes from. You know,
there has to be the final principle upon which no
one which is not dependent on any other principle or

(16:17):
or or you know what Thomas Aquine is called, happens
with ce come on anyway, the one, the one on
whom all of the things are contingent. And so you
just take it to his limits, his logical limit. If
we if we presuppose there's a God, then in the

(16:38):
end you end up with those conclusions. And similarly in
the mid Rash and or with any story, any story,
actually not just biblical stories, with any story.

Speaker 5 (16:47):
This is just as.

Speaker 6 (16:48):
Important when when you're analyzing modern culture like films, like
you know, what's wrong with the New snow white film
for example. Well, you have to take everything to its
logical conclusion. And so you know that the sort of
rabbinic approach to this in in in the what we
call the Old Testament, is of course too presupposed different outcomes.

(17:09):
You know, So how could this have gone every every
one of these ways? And by doing that you actually
find a deeper meaning in the one that's been handed
on to us. That's sort of like the apathetic tradition,
you know, where you look at the negative rather than
the positive. You know, look look at what, look at
what cannot be, and that reveals what is like you know,

(17:31):
remember what those images used to look at, stare at
and your eyes went blurry and that magic guy, magic
guy magic. Yeah, they were big in the eighties.

Speaker 3 (17:39):
And it can't do it. Trace, it can't do it.
You can't say that. You can't say that, Yeah, people can't.

Speaker 6 (17:48):
It took me a long time to get it.

Speaker 5 (17:53):
And that's that's an approach we should to be honest.

Speaker 6 (17:56):
There's a balance on these things, right, one of the
old what to say, ask your priest, because we can
actually do this too much within our own lives, like
you know, so taking it away from scriptural analysis.

Speaker 5 (18:09):
If we just completely you know, dissect murder, to.

Speaker 6 (18:12):
Dissect our own thoughts, actions, intentions, impulses, we end up
in kind of anxious mess that can't do anything. And
so that's why actually, you know, being grounded in the
biblical tradition, in the traditions of the Church, or in
the traditions of Judaism if you're a Jew, actually helps
you to be less anxious, to be more effective at

(18:38):
managing the sort of busy thoughts that come through your head.
So yeah, so that's the connection. I encourage people to
take it to the limits, but best to do so under guidance.

Speaker 3 (18:49):
Yeah, I agree with that. I think you know, when
we go it alone and you don't have anyone to
hold you accountable, the ego tends to run wild with
that kind of scenario, and people feel that they're almost
entitled to that kind of freedom just on virtue of
the fact that they get possessive of their own spiritualities

(19:11):
to the point that they think that they know better.
And you know, you can't dismiss two thousand years of
some of the most brilliant minds just because you know
your modern sensibilities and your ego reality are telling you
something different. I think you need to be held accountable.
That's another reason why church is not optional. It's necessary

(19:32):
because we are so good at diluting ourselves that religion
is the perfect playing ground for that kind of self deception,
and we have to be careful of that. The church
is there to help us not fall into that trap.
But you know, if you always think you know better, well,
then even if you go to church, that might not

(19:54):
help much. I know there's a lot of people that
think they can go and listen to a sermon and
decide whether or not they agree with it, and you
don't have. No many times I have I have given
a sermon where somebody comes up to me, I really
agreed with what you said today. It's like, well, good,
you're supposed.

Speaker 4 (20:08):
To like every be questioned by some every time.

Speaker 3 (20:14):
Yeah, And it's like, that's you're missing the first the
whole point of the harmony. You don't understand in person
of Christy. You don't understand the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
You don't understand the the the the the level of
thought and theology that goes into preparing a homily. These
are not optional things. Okay. Now, sometimes also.

Speaker 6 (20:34):
They don't understand how naked they look when they ask questions,
because their reflections say more about their own psychology than
they do about anything.

Speaker 3 (20:42):
Else they do.

Speaker 5 (20:43):
It's very careful when you're in that mode.

Speaker 6 (20:45):
Like you know, even if you've been especially you've been
angered by something someone said in a homily, like, be
careful because if you start putting that out there people,
people are gonna know what's going on in your mind,
like you know, it's.

Speaker 3 (20:56):
I mean, I do try, like I mean, every every
time I do a very CONFI sacial kind of homily,
I don't write them out, I don't do a speech.
I prefer to just sort of go with what the
message is for that mass and what feels right in discernment.
But so naturally there's going to be times where a

(21:16):
personal perspective comes into a homily, and I try in
those moments to point that out and say, well, in
my opinion or you know, in my experience, this is
what I have found to be true. But when I'm
teaching theology, that's not an option for you to choose
to believe it. If you're a Christian, this is the
teaching here. Take it or leave it, but don't don't

(21:39):
say I'm gonna stay Christian but I disagree with you. Well, okay,
when you disagree with God and everybody that came after
that gave us this information. So that's really problematic, right, Well.

Speaker 5 (21:50):
We've been caught in this ever since modernity.

Speaker 6 (21:52):
Yeah, you know, I think therefore, I am it's like,
who did think you are?

Speaker 5 (21:56):
Why didn't you're so important?

Speaker 6 (21:57):
I mean, you're precious and looked by God, but your thoughts,
your feelings, you're squiffy.

Speaker 5 (22:03):
I am, like, you know, It's what I mean.

Speaker 6 (22:06):
Really, the only preachers to look out for are the
ones that don't submit to any authority at all, because
they are literally just telling you what they want to
tell you to manipulate you.

Speaker 3 (22:16):
That's true.

Speaker 5 (22:17):
And this goes on in mainstream churches.

Speaker 2 (22:19):
Now.

Speaker 5 (22:19):
I mean, you know, if you hear in Episcopalian churches,
I know, I'm sorry to pick on them.

Speaker 3 (22:26):
But well you have personal experience there.

Speaker 5 (22:32):
I've got previous skin in the game.

Speaker 6 (22:33):
But if you hear an Episcopalian church, you know, the
sort of vacuous parroting of postmodern mantra in a homily,
it might make them popular amongst their Ivy League subset
of very strange old white people.

Speaker 5 (22:47):
But it's not the truth.

Speaker 6 (22:49):
And and actually, if if you're more comfortable listening to lies,
you've got some deep work to go to do, well,
there's a.

Speaker 3 (22:58):
Place a place for it. I mean, there's there's You
can have programs in your parish where you have like
study groups, and that is the time to debate and
maybe speculate and get into some you know, heated conversation.
But the Humbly is not one of them. That's not
one of those times where that's to be debated. You know,
the gospel guy it is. I mean, you're teaching the gospel.

(23:19):
Presumably your priest knows what he's talking about, at least,
you know, you hope so. And only if you know
you suspect hercy, well then he reports your bishop.

Speaker 2 (23:28):
You know.

Speaker 3 (23:29):
But I mean, you know you don't you know, but
I disagree with what you said. It's like you disagree
with Christ. I mean, he's the one that said it,
I'm just the messengers. Don't don't you know, don't hold
me accountable. Go go go complain to him. He's the
one that said, these problems as old as.

Speaker 5 (23:46):
The church. Because you know, Paul, Paul has the rites
about it.

Speaker 6 (23:50):
Right.

Speaker 5 (23:50):
Oh, I'm for Apollo, I'm for Paul. You know, well,
I'm for Christ.

Speaker 4 (23:54):
You know.

Speaker 5 (23:54):
It's the sort of.

Speaker 6 (23:56):
Dynamic because this is a it's a human failing like
you know it.

Speaker 3 (24:00):
You know it is.

Speaker 5 (24:01):
So I'm graceful about it.

Speaker 6 (24:03):
But you know, I hear this a lot, especially from
American politicians.

Speaker 5 (24:08):
I'm afraid to say, but you know, I'm a Catholic.

Speaker 6 (24:11):
But and then they say something that is absolutely not
a Catholic faith.

Speaker 5 (24:16):
So you're not a Catholic.

Speaker 6 (24:18):
What you mean is you were baptized in a Catholic
church by a Catholic priest. But you and you're free
to choose or not choose that. You know, we're not absolutists.
You can choose or not choose. But don't say you
are if you're not different things. Saying I am a
Catholic and I'm a sinner and I fail.

Speaker 5 (24:35):
At these things.

Speaker 6 (24:35):
I find this difficult. That's fine, that's actually that is
being a Catholic. If you're not guilty, you're not a Catholic.
And so so, But.

Speaker 5 (24:47):
To say I'm positively.

Speaker 6 (24:51):
Believing practicing something which is which is with the Catholic
has absolutely said is incompatible with the Catholic faith.

Speaker 5 (24:58):
You need to be honest. You need to be honest
with yourself, you know.

Speaker 6 (25:03):
And the fact that you deceive all the people for
political gain, well.

Speaker 5 (25:07):
I'll let deal with that.

Speaker 3 (25:09):
That's God's that's that becomes God's arena at that point,
you know. But I pity them, I do. I pity
people that put themselves into that situation. They get a
root awakening coming. What's our what's our next one? Brandon?

Speaker 9 (25:25):
So the next one is On a previous episode of Messages,
Jamie had mentioned an encounter with the Jin. To my understanding,
they have origins in Islamic beliefs.

Speaker 10 (25:34):
If most entities are our.

Speaker 9 (25:36):
Own projections, how did one of those end up in
the States, assuming the encounter was in the States?

Speaker 3 (25:43):
Okay, so it wasn't It was not in the States.
The client in question, and Jamie can give you even
more detail because she was the one that was the
direct contact for that case. He was a child that
living in Saudi Arabia at the time, and he when
he was a child somewhere around nine years old, I

(26:04):
think it was ten, maybe he disappeared into the Arabian
desert for three days, no one knew where he was,
and then suddenly he emerged and didn't speak for a
long time. What he remembered as an adult telling this
story to us was that the last thing he recalled
before when he was out there was this shadow coming

(26:29):
up from the sand dunes, approaching him from a distance
and then overshadowed him, and then he had no memory
after that. They then later moved to the United States
as an adult, where he proceeded to exhibit increasing signs
of demonic oppression and possession, which prompted his Muslim mother

(26:53):
to reach out to us because her mosque didn't know
what to do with it, and so she tried us,
And of course we try to help everybody, you know,
and so we came out to work with him. Unfortunately,
he ended up in prison because part of the behaviors

(27:14):
that he was exhibiting lend itself to criminality, and he
died before we could work with him. So again, you know,
to finish the work that we started with him. But
I want to make clear on this. We can talk
a little more about that case, but I want to
make clear that elementals are not projections. Okay, how we

(27:36):
perceive them is the projection, but the elemental themselves is
not a projection of the human psyche. These things exist
independently of us, in the same way that we exist
independently of them, or, if you want to make it
more practical, the way that I exist separately from the
birds in my backyard. We're both living beings, but we're

(27:58):
not We're not integrated in any particular way. I'm not
projecting those birds out there, they're not projecting me. And
the same thing goes with elementals, you know. But we
how we see them, and this is because the brain
does try to take incorporeal data using its archetypal database
and create an image that can be related to something

(28:22):
that has no corporeal form. This is how we get
the classic imagery of demons. Demons don't have an appearance,
but they will usually all look similarly to each other,
or even the same demon will appear to several different
people and look the same way because the archetypal database

(28:43):
through which our brains try to apply information to something
that is largely beyond its understanding and has no physical
form to reference, will create an archetypal image of what
we would think a demon should look like. So that's
kind of how this works. But that does not apply
that elementals are projections. It's just how we see them,

(29:04):
how they might appear to us, like, for example, example
the fae, you know, little theories, you know, flying around.
What we see and when people say they've encountered these
things is a projection of something that has no physicality,
and so the brain implants an image for it to reference,
and it's usually from the archetypal database of the collective unconscious.

(29:28):
But you want to talk a little more about that case,
because you worked with him more than I did.

Speaker 4 (29:32):
Yeah, this is the case that got away. So this
young man was so talented, had such a great heart,
but he definitely was being manipulated by a gin. We
went out there several times, got a lot of good
evidence on our equipment. This thing would, this thing would

(29:54):
take him over and speak through him, and it was
very arrogant, very dismissive towards us, told us we weren't
gonna be able to get rid of it. Didn't like
me at all. They do, they always always.

Speaker 1 (30:07):
Hate thing.

Speaker 3 (30:10):
In the infernal world.

Speaker 4 (30:12):
I'll take that badge of honor. So but we we
caught tape where when this thing came.

Speaker 3 (30:18):
Through, he had hands on the s LS camera, coming
out of mirrors, grabbing her neck. I mean they hate her.
Go ahead, I.

Speaker 6 (30:33):
Think I think I say that that's a good sign
because I don't.

Speaker 5 (30:41):
Is a really nice person.

Speaker 4 (30:44):
At a little ship to him. But anyway, this guy,
uh when when when he would speak through our client,
I don't know what happened to the video. I think
it may have gotten taken.

Speaker 3 (30:56):
By it was one it was stolen by former team members.

Speaker 4 (30:59):
Yeah, his face there would be clear background, but his
face would like if you ever seen I can't remember
what showed it is where you see someone's face and
they just it would do that on on the camera.
Every time this thing would take over. It was very disturbing.
We could feel it. It would challenge us. We tried
several times to set up more more investigations with him.

(31:24):
We even had a special trap made you remember that,
oh we still haven't. We weren't able to use it
because part of what this manipulation was was he was
encouraging him to use hallucinogenic drugs and he became rather
violent on them, and he would get into a fight
with his then girlfriend, who was kind of a manipulator too,

(31:48):
if I'm being honest, and he would end up getting arrested.
So we set up a time where we were gonna
come out there with the trap and we were going
to try and resolve this.

Speaker 3 (31:57):
Trap was built for him that case.

Speaker 4 (31:59):
Yeah, And unfortunately when I called to get the date set,
his mom told me that he had been picked up
in he for family violence and was taken to jail
and he was in there for quite a while.

Speaker 3 (32:13):
Uh.

Speaker 4 (32:13):
He did get sent to a a halfway house, and
the thing had been telling him through him that he
was going to take him, that he was going to
kill him. Well, he was halfway to getting out and
coming back to the streets and his mom called me
and bawling and saying that he had passed away. He
was literally walking out of a building down the sidewalk

(32:35):
and dropped.

Speaker 2 (32:37):
Ye.

Speaker 4 (32:37):
This this kid was.

Speaker 3 (32:38):
In no real I mean was like it was like
but no real reason, no real reason.

Speaker 4 (32:42):
He was healthy. I mean, this kid was young. He
was healthy.

Speaker 1 (32:45):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (32:46):
But that's what happens a lot with jen If they
do not get removed, it usually does seem to end
with the demise of the of the the host.

Speaker 4 (32:56):
Yeah, and he I mean, this is something that I've
been with him since he was a child. Yeah, so yeah,
that's one that will always haunt me.

Speaker 3 (33:03):
Yeah. It was an unfortunate case. And this is part
of the problem, is that some of these things take
a very long time to resolve, and when you don't
have the full cooperation of the victim, there's only so
much that you can do, you know. And then then
then there was the religion barrier here, you know, we
we didn't have any of the two. This was not

(33:23):
a baptized individual, so you know, the tools of the
church were very limited, and of course he had no
desire for baptism, so it wasn't even an option. So
we had to really go about this from a completely
occult point.

Speaker 4 (33:42):
Again, I think it was the first the first time
we had bent to the apartment. That's where we had
like the ovulous or we we had disembodied voice au
either get out of here or something of that effect.
And I'm the only one that heard it. I think
are one of.

Speaker 3 (33:59):
Our one caught it recording devices.

Speaker 4 (34:02):
You're trying to give him, I think just a simple blessing,
and the thing came through. He gave you that that real,
like a joker smile, and his eyes were just I mean,
anybody that's ever seen someone get possessed, you know when
they're possessed, and uh, yeah, this was a legit case.

Speaker 3 (34:19):
He was perfectly fine until I hit him with the
first drop.

Speaker 4 (34:23):
W was not happy. But yeah, that's a tough one.
And the mother. I kept in touch with the mother
for about a year after he'd passed away, and she
she did give us permission to talk about his case
whenever it came up as a learning experience that these
things are real and it took her son, her only.

Speaker 3 (34:43):
Son, that child, right, Yeah, yeah, it was terrible case. Terrible.

Speaker 4 (34:49):
I mean, that's what I wish I could go back to.

Speaker 3 (34:52):
Yeah, but what I mean, we did everything we could do.
It's not like we could have done anything differently.

Speaker 4 (34:57):
So yeah, this stuff's real. It affects people, it kills people.
So yeah, the gin's not to be messed with.

Speaker 3 (35:03):
Dangerous entity a very difficult thing to work with too,
because they don't always respond well to the church either
to the tools of the church, you know, although there
is more of an integration there than some other elementals.
But the reason that gin are so problematic is because
you're dealing with a high intellectual energy system. It's extremely intelligent, and.

Speaker 4 (35:30):
We're little play things to that.

Speaker 3 (35:32):
We are, I mean, the humanity is looked at as
as basically just yeah, chess pieces. Yeah, and I mean,
for all intents and purposes. To a Muslim, a gin
is a demon, you know, it's their version of it,
more or less. But they are different than how we
would classify a fallen angel, which is why we put

(35:54):
them into the elemental category, because they're not fallen angels.
They're they're part of the created world, but the incorporeal side,
and much more ancient than humanity itself. They were here
long before we got here. So there you go. Any
any questions about that, Brandon, I don't know. I don't

(36:14):
want to go.

Speaker 4 (36:16):
I'm sure that everybody's depressed.

Speaker 3 (36:20):
I know that wasn't the happiest story, is it wasn't.

Speaker 4 (36:23):
They don't always end well, guys.

Speaker 3 (36:25):
They don't.

Speaker 6 (36:26):
You know, Well, we know we know from the scriptures
that that there are well the.

Speaker 5 (36:32):
You know what what we would call praise and natural being.

Speaker 6 (36:35):
Yes, you have in Genesis six that you know, the
the sons of the sons of God. You know that
with the women and they produced the Yeah, they produced
the Nephiling right the giants.

Speaker 3 (36:47):
So you know, people will try to make that out
to be fallen angels. I do not agree with that.
I think that as a COMPOSI no, I.

Speaker 5 (36:54):
Think that's that's a era. I think that's a era.

Speaker 6 (36:58):
But so you know, we don't really I mean I
always kind of hesitate to on this show.

Speaker 5 (37:05):
I can mention it, but about these.

Speaker 6 (37:07):
Things because because you know, they're the things that people
will then spend the next twenty years of their life
focusing on that instead of you know, pick up your
cross and follow me that matter.

Speaker 3 (37:18):
Yeah, that's the problem with the paranormal I do find
is that it does sort of take the front seat
and all of the theological stuff just gets thrown in
the trunk somewhere.

Speaker 6 (37:29):
It's a great way to procrastinate the spiritual life.

Speaker 3 (37:33):
Yeah, yeah, that's the danger of the paranormal.

Speaker 4 (37:35):
It also is kind of an addiction for some people
to investigate and get evidence, and it's.

Speaker 5 (37:41):
Anything religion, it's religion.

Speaker 3 (37:45):
Yeah, but there's a euphoria to it. There's an adrenaline
rush to it actually when.

Speaker 4 (37:49):
You get really good evidence. But you know, are you
helping anything are you making a situation better or are
you just going in there and sting stuff up?

Speaker 3 (37:57):
Yeah? Most of the time it's it's the latter.

Speaker 5 (37:59):
Yeah, ok, Christians, Yeah yeah.

Speaker 3 (38:03):
And see that's the thing that that that's the biggest
issue because a lot of people will say, well, what
do you do? You know in your ministry? You know?
And and the fact is when when you look at
the people that get helped, and I always say this,
we have a one hundred percent success rate with the
people who listen to us, and if you listen to us,

(38:24):
if you don't listen, I would say it's about a
ninety percent failure rate. I can usually still help a
small amount, but overall a lot of this requires some
kind of spiritual commitment. You're coming to a Catholic church
for help, so naturally the solution I'm going to provide
is going to be a Catholic solution. And so if

(38:45):
you're not interested in a Catholic solution, and why a
you're coming to me in the first place, you know,
maybe you need to go find someone that has a solution.
That's more. You know, your your your your cup of tea.
But my reality, in terms of how I look at
this is that you know, I can only work as
a facilitator. I can only do as much as you

(39:06):
allow me to do. I can only facilitate your relationship
to God. I can't do it for you as an exorcist,
as a priest, as a pastor, all every aspect of
that is facilitation. The relationship with God has to come
from you.

Speaker 6 (39:26):
You have been based on freedom, yes, and that's the
ultimate difference. Like you know, no matter how twisted Christian
Christians and Christianity Christian sect can become, it is fundamentally
based on a free decision of free choice.

Speaker 5 (39:41):
Correct, And that is what's distinctive. Yes, yeah, because some people.

Speaker 6 (39:45):
Say to and understand why, to certain groups of Christians,
you sound just like a Taliban.

Speaker 5 (39:51):
It's like, yeah.

Speaker 6 (39:51):
The difference is though that our religion, our religion, our practice,
our philosophy.

Speaker 5 (39:59):
Leads a very different way.

Speaker 6 (40:01):
So you know, like it is based on truth and
so and so it doesn't kind of lead to the
to the real dark side that the sex like the
Taliban can go down.

Speaker 5 (40:12):
So but yeah, it's based upon freedom.

Speaker 3 (40:15):
That's it. And the ones based on control based on freedom.

Speaker 5 (40:18):
And we're not magicians and we're not magicians.

Speaker 3 (40:20):
No, we're not wizards, we're not representatives, we're not sorcerers.
You know, this is not sorcery. It's faith. And in
order to work with faith, it requires relationship. And if
you're the one with the problem, then you're the one
that needs to work on your relationship. It's not it
can't the priests can't do it for you. The exorcists
can't do it for you. And in these kinds of situations,

(40:42):
you know, you're only as good as the person that
wants help. So here the problem we see in this
ministry is that when when when people come to us
for help because they're desperate, and they find out that,
you know, I'm not going to rush in there with
with crosses in holy water and start you know, doing
solid rights of exorcism to satisfy you know, their expectation,

(41:03):
but actually start talking about having a relationship with Christ.

Speaker 4 (41:07):
And people get disappointed about that when I tell them
when when I do the interview with a with a
candidate or a client and and they immediately go straight
to extrorcism, I said, you're not even a candidate for exorcism,
And they're like, well, what do you mean? I said, well,
you're you're you're not under deepnotic possession. But but but
I needism, do not need an exorcism.

Speaker 3 (41:27):
They want to be they want to be.

Speaker 4 (41:29):
Yeah, they think that's.

Speaker 3 (41:30):
It's like no, you know, and I'm thinking to myself,
they're looking for a short cut too.

Speaker 5 (41:35):
They did.

Speaker 3 (41:35):
They want a short cut, but they also want to
think a little entertainment.

Speaker 4 (41:38):
And they're flabbergasted when I when I refer to secular counseling.

Speaker 3 (41:43):
Yes, they don't want flowers.

Speaker 4 (41:45):
They don't want to hear that spiritual.

Speaker 3 (41:46):
Okay, you know, and and they really don't like. We
lose I'd say about at least two thirds, if not
more three quarters, perhaps of our case load just by
telling them that you're not even going to be considered
for exorcism until we have a full psychological work.

Speaker 4 (42:04):
Up, psychological work up, medical. Hey, on a side note,
hopefully they don't mind me speak. I'm going to keep
it very generic. So this is why it's so important
for people to get current medical and psychological exams when
they come to us having having these these symptoms. So
we we have We had a client that came to

(42:26):
us a few months ago and they were referred by
someone in our in our group, and UH. I spoke
with that individual, real nice young man having hallucinations, all
kinds of all kinds of UH, symptoms of which could
be oppression. And I, through talking to him, I found

(42:48):
out that he did have a severe substance abuse problem,
but he had been cleaned for a month and was
working on getting healthy again. And I said, look, six months,
six months straight, have have get your medical exam, make
sure it's stuff a medical and contact us back. And
I recently found out through our contact that he did

(43:12):
go to the doctor and they found a brain tumor.
So thank god he's being treated and I pray for him.
But you know, that's one reason why it's so important.
It's not always a demon, guys, it's not always furious.

Speaker 3 (43:25):
And a lot of physiological things like.

Speaker 4 (43:29):
Dart cannot do that.

Speaker 3 (43:31):
A neurological or brain disorder, some kind of thing of that,
you know, can can absolutely produce hallucinations that feel very real.

Speaker 4 (43:38):
Hearing voices, yeah, yeah, feeling feeling chicken skin when there's
no one around, all that stuff.

Speaker 3 (43:43):
And a lot of that is will manifest to you
as a spiritual experience, and often negative, a negative one.
So That's why we have to be careful because you
don't know we do, and and I don't have the
time to waste on cases that I don't you know,
have definitive, at least some reasonable expectation that they actually

(44:04):
do need me, you know what I mean.

Speaker 6 (44:06):
But I mean the spirit, the spiritual is is not
separable from the physiological and the psychological.

Speaker 5 (44:13):
You know.

Speaker 6 (44:14):
So even even even the suggestion that no, what I
needed exoricism, you know, this is a spiritual problem, not
a psychological one. You think, Okay, there's a lot of
teaching has got to happen here, you know, you can't.

Speaker 5 (44:25):
We're embodied souls.

Speaker 6 (44:27):
Even if you take a really kind of as I do,
ultra sort of traditionalist view of humanity, we're embodied souls,
and that means that that our souls are not.

Speaker 5 (44:36):
Separate from our bodies. You know, that they interact with
one another.

Speaker 6 (44:41):
And so yeah, I mean, you know, again, I'm kind
of ultra traddy on this stuff. I mean, the first
thing I say is are you a baptized Christian?

Speaker 5 (44:54):
The answer is no. Well that's where we've got to start.

Speaker 4 (44:57):
You know, just had a client we had that conversation
to as a matter of fact, we're.

Speaker 5 (45:02):
Going to start.

Speaker 4 (45:03):
Actually he wants to beat.

Speaker 3 (45:04):
Really, Oh that's good to see that. I mean, like
I said, there's always a surprise, and there's one for
me to.

Speaker 5 (45:09):
I have to say, my.

Speaker 6 (45:13):
Experience anecdotally is that almost all of them then want
to be.

Speaker 5 (45:17):
Baptized, and so.

Speaker 3 (45:20):
That's interesting.

Speaker 5 (45:21):
But again, but I don't shortcut that either.

Speaker 6 (45:24):
You know, they have to then be catechized, so you know,
it means it's hard work for me, right, but you
know that's that's the that's the approach I take. And
and you know, and I point out that when they
reach the point of baptism, that's an exorcism. So exorcism
is part of the normal right of baptism.

Speaker 5 (45:45):
Excuse me, So you know that's where your exorcism is
going to happen.

Speaker 3 (45:49):
Yeah, there you go. All right, Brandon, what do we
get next?

Speaker 9 (45:54):
The third question kind of goes back to what we've
originally talked about. What are your thoughts on priests using
AI thro write their homilies?

Speaker 3 (46:05):
Okay, so yeah, I don't. Again, like I said earlier,
I don't really write homily. So I'm not really the
best person to ask this, but I can say you
know as a bishop, if a priest, if one of
my priests came to me and said, you know, is
this okay? Objectively, I don't think it's terribly different than

(46:28):
having a secretary proof a draft of your homily for you,
which I know a lot of priests do, so that
they can, you know, they can have somebody working on
the nitty gritty stuff, but they supply the ideas. So
I would say that as long as the priest is
not just saying I need a homily for the twenty

(46:49):
second Sunday of ordinary time, write it, that I would
be against. But if you're going to say, you know,
here's my thoughts, and you write a draft and then
you provide it to the AI and you just say,
can you make it better but keep it in my
writing style, I don't see anything wrong with that. That

(47:13):
would just be added productivity and maybe even save you
some time and money. And I know that in some
of the richer dioceses that have priests that have their
own secretaries, which I knew many of them, it was
very common practice for them to write a draft for
the Sunday homily and have their secretaries correct any you know,

(47:35):
grammatical issues, or you know, if something didn't read clearly,
they could maybe question it and correct it. But I
don't think they should be writing the homily. I think
it should be an aid to writing a better homily. Perhaps,
I don't think there's a problem.

Speaker 5 (47:50):
I mean, I haven't written for over ten years.

Speaker 3 (47:53):
I don't think I don't like doing it like I
just like the spirit, holy Spirit to guide me. That's it.

Speaker 6 (47:59):
Well, we should't misunderstand what we're saying, though we don't
say stand up and wing it. I mean it's you know,
ahead ahead of the game, you're looking at the Bible readings,
but I mean you're looking, you know, you're thinking about
what's going on in the world of the people that
you're going to talk to. It's what It's why, you know,
virtual humblies are much more difficult because you're speaking to

(48:20):
anyone anywhere.

Speaker 3 (48:21):
You have to keep it somewhat generic.

Speaker 6 (48:24):
Yeah, it's why I don't I don't, you know, I've
chosen not to broadcast them.

Speaker 5 (48:28):
But I don't think there's anything wrong with doing that.

Speaker 6 (48:30):
I just, you know, I know that on a local level,
it's you know, it has a it has a different
kind of impact because you know, you know.

Speaker 3 (48:39):
This church would have gone. If this church would have
gone a local direction, I would have never streamed it,
of course, not.

Speaker 5 (48:48):
Because I get it.

Speaker 6 (48:51):
And nothing I'm saying is saying you shouldn't be doing
what you're doing. I think that's it's a different genre.
But the so I've not written for.

Speaker 5 (48:59):
A long time.

Speaker 6 (49:00):
I mean, you could say, but when I when I
used to write them, and when I plan them now,
I read Bible concordances, I read what the church fathers
have said about you know, now, if you're using AI
to help you do that, I don't see what the
problem is. I don't see what the difference is other
than that if you're using GROC or chat, GPT, it

(49:21):
might not be theological source.

Speaker 3 (49:23):
So you have to prove it. Do you have to
prove it?

Speaker 6 (49:25):
So and therefore if and by the way, if all
they do is say, GROP, please write me some for
the twenty second Sunday ordinary time, and then they just
read it out and it's full of absolute garbage. That
priest is responsible for that garbage, not.

Speaker 5 (49:37):
The AI, you know.

Speaker 6 (49:38):
And so you know there was an issue with you know,
because I was sort of preaching when the Internet was
really sort of kicking in on terms of things like that,
and you could you could download homilies from the internet
that were good, that have been written well, that you know,
that were thoughtful. And if you're just starting out in
ministry and you get and you're in a situation where

(50:00):
very little support, I actually don't see the problem with
it at all.

Speaker 3 (50:03):
No, it's just a secretary, it's all it is.

Speaker 6 (50:06):
It's say you're not submitting it to get a degree
in saying it's your work.

Speaker 3 (50:10):
And if you're cheating with it, if you're cheating with
it to write it for you, then that's also not
really different than if the pastor went to his secretary
and says, I don't have time, can you write the
homily this? That would be just as problematic. So it's
really you got to look at AI as a secretary.
It's like an administrative assistant for you. And and as

(50:32):
long as you don't abuse what that position is, whether
it be a computer or a human being, you know,
then you're fine. You can that they're there to help you,
and there's nothing wrong with being helped. As long as
they're not doing it for you. That's where it becomes probably.

Speaker 6 (50:50):
I think I think if I became aware that a
colleague was relying on that because you know, they like
the confidence or the skill or the I don't know,
then I would choose to help them, to help to
teach them how to write homilies. Actually, Father Walter has
just pointed out in the chat here, and this is true.

(51:13):
You know, when the English Reformation really kicked in, which
was long after Henry the Eighth had died, the Book
of Common Prayer included the Book of Homilies, So there
were homilies were not invented week by week, mass by mass.
They were read out of the book. In other words,
they were authorized. Now, it's a very didactic approach, and

(51:36):
when you're when you're inventing a new church, that's probably
what you have to do, right. But the so the
idea that that that that priests are there to be
creative or because priests traditionally have been educated and written essays.
When you write an essay, you have to you have
to be honest, and you have you can't plage your eyes.
You've got to it's got to be your own original work,

(51:57):
and you've got to cite things that aren't you know
the rest of it, homily isn't in that category, and
actually it could be appropriate. I think I might have
even done this once. I'm trying to remember where I
just read something that was so good and so like
on point for the hearing now for the people I
was talking to. I just said, I'm going to read

(52:20):
this thing. I can't remember who wrote it, but at
the time I said, I read this, it's written by
Joe Blogs and read it out.

Speaker 5 (52:28):
That was my homily.

Speaker 3 (52:30):
I've seen harmily is like that. I mean, there's nothing
wrong with doing that occasionally if it's relevant.

Speaker 5 (52:34):
There's nothing wrong with the homily. There's two sentences long either,
that's true.

Speaker 3 (52:38):
You don't have to make them long like mine.

Speaker 4 (52:43):
That long. You have around twenty minutes.

Speaker 3 (52:44):
I try to stay, I say, inside of not writing them. Yeah,
so long winded. But I don't think twenty minutes is
too bad.

Speaker 4 (52:53):
I know the pros Church are past forty five.

Speaker 5 (52:58):
Yeah, I know.

Speaker 3 (52:59):
But the Baptist it could be ours.

Speaker 4 (53:01):
Fire and brimstone growing up.

Speaker 3 (53:02):
Well that's all they got though they don't have any masks.

Speaker 5 (53:08):
That sometimes the glory is longer than the servant.

Speaker 3 (53:16):
Yeah, I mean, you know, I think there's there's something
to be said, something for short and sweet too. I
try to make mine educational, you know, I try to
make it different because you know, we only have three
year electionary. So eventually you start to see after you
do this for a few decades, you start to see

(53:38):
the same things coming up, and then you want to
be able to be like, Okay, I need to say
something different than I did last time. You know, it
could be a.

Speaker 5 (53:46):
Little challenge because I'm bored with it.

Speaker 3 (53:49):
Yeah, yeah, that's true. It does get boring. So it's
like you try to challenge yourself. How can I look
at this a different direction? Like what can I do
with this?

Speaker 6 (53:57):
Now?

Speaker 3 (53:57):
How's a different way of seeing this one? That's kind
of how I do it. Yeah.

Speaker 6 (54:01):
Yeah, But when I said the one sentence or two
senses of that was father Walter's put it in the
group chat. That's exactly what I was thinking of, Sin
John the Apostles homily day after day was little children
love one another. That was his whole Yeah, and it
was like, you know, sort of, well, once you crack
that one, I'll tell you the next thing.

Speaker 3 (54:22):
That's true.

Speaker 2 (54:23):
That's true.

Speaker 3 (54:25):
But yeah, I mean a I look, I said this
last week. I'm gonna say it again because it came up.
You know, I think we got movies that do injustice
to exorcisms, right, Okay, you got the Exorcism. It was
a great movie. You know, there's other it's a subgenre
of horror. Not all of them are. Yeah, I hate

(54:48):
that one. You know, there's a lot of movies that
that have created an over dramatization of this work, which
does it an injustice, and that's unfortunate. And because it's
dramatic and the negative tends to be more dramatic, so

(55:08):
we make it more negative or make it, you know,
worse than it needs to be. Same thing goes with AI.

Speaker 2 (55:14):
All right.

Speaker 3 (55:14):
We have some good movies about AI, and there's a
Terminator series, there's the Matrix Robot I Robot, and it
always shows this dark, devious, end of the world apocalyptic
kind of result from AI. But we stopped. We have
to stop and think it could just as easily go

(55:35):
the other direction. It could just it could get so
good at what it does that it would try to solve.
If AI, this is my argument, Okay, if AI ever
gets exponentially sophisticated, like I'm saying, like we said last
week about quantum computers and what that might do to
the where they self they start self generating their own code.

(55:59):
My theory, my projection of what that would result in
is not the annihilation of humanity. But I think it
would try to become our savior, and that not in
kind of like an Antichrist kind of way, but in
literally in the way that it would say, it would
take pity on the fact that there's these living beings

(56:21):
that suffer in a world of that's programmed towards entropy,
and it would try to solve entropy. So I think AI,
if it gets to that level, would not try to
destroy us like in the matrix, or use us, or
not destroy us in a terminator, or use us like
in the matrix. But I think what they would try
to do is it would try to figure out how

(56:43):
to create the end of scarcity.

Speaker 4 (56:46):
No, they're gonna kill us.

Speaker 3 (56:47):
No, I don't think so, I really don't. And the
reason I think that is because that would that would
give in to the flaw of humanity and a I
would eventually be able to simulate a perfect a simulation,
but it could simulate a perfect being because what it

(57:10):
would do is it would say, how can I make
myself better? And to make oneself better. The only way
to do that is to figure out a way to
transcend entropy.

Speaker 4 (57:21):
Sounds a lot like Vision from Marvel.

Speaker 3 (57:24):
I think Vision from Marvel would probably be a good,
a good analogy to this. And he was he was
he was like, he was like almost like a perfect being,
infinitely compassionate. He's one of the outside iron mean, it's
my favorite Marvel character. Well, he's funny. But you know,
there's only there's only so much vulgarrety you can take

(57:46):
in one movie.

Speaker 1 (57:47):
You know.

Speaker 3 (57:50):
All right, we're at the top of the hour. When
we come back, we're going to talk with our brand
new guests tonight about African proverbs and how they relate
to scripture. Don't go away.

Speaker 11 (58:33):
Just pretty good to.

Speaker 12 (59:22):
Tracing the feeling of gloss of the school and join something.

Speaker 11 (59:34):
You also know that com.

Speaker 1 (01:00:02):
Just pretty.

Speaker 13 (01:00:13):
Peak, seeping, steeping.

Speaker 14 (01:01:10):
Its expos some on a spot.

Speaker 5 (01:01:34):
That I don't see.

Speaker 8 (01:02:21):
Answer show time, my shot ted, I came shot short time,
my shot, I came to.

Speaker 14 (01:02:36):
Start, Stategis Stars Shames, Stategis surges shows some shots, shas

(01:03:13):
the ething easy eh I spyllowing.

Speaker 7 (01:05:05):
No way.

Speaker 3 (01:06:00):
Welcome back, everyone to the second hour of vestiges after dark,
we are now going to start talking about tonight's topic
on the African oral tradition and how it relates to
Christian teaching with brand new guest Chris Morehouse. I think
we're gonna have a good time tonight. This is going

(01:06:21):
to be a nice way to close out the season
with some really interesting subject matters. So don't go in anywhere.
We want you to stay with us, and we want
your questions in the third hour.

Speaker 2 (01:06:33):
Or to come.

Speaker 7 (01:07:02):
Stunts at.

Speaker 3 (01:08:13):
Our guest tonight is Chris Morehouse. He's an author, deacon,
and cultural researcher whose work bridges African oral traditions and
Judeo Christian techniques. He holds a master's degree in Public
and International Affairs from the University of Pittsburgh, where he
specialized in economic and social development in Africa. Driven by
a deep admiration for the profound truths found in African proverbs,

(01:08:37):
Chris authored Legacy Wisdom of African Traditions in the Bible,
a compelling exploration of how African ancestral wisdom aligns with
and enriches Biblical scripture. His book highlights the universal themes
of more morality, leadership, resilience and spiritual integrity found in
both traditions. As a deacon at Shepherd's Tie Down Presbyterian

(01:09:01):
Church and Chepperstown, West Virginia, Chris brings both scholarly and
spiritual perspectives to his work, offering unique insights into how
sacred traditions across continents speak to shared human truths. He
currently resides in West Virginia with his family, continuing his
work in ministry and enter faith dialogue. Please welcome Deacon

(01:09:26):
Chris to the show. How are you doing tonight?

Speaker 2 (01:09:28):
Hello, I'm doing great. Such a pleasure to be with
you all tonight.

Speaker 3 (01:09:33):
Thank you so much for.

Speaker 5 (01:09:35):
Not everyone says that.

Speaker 3 (01:09:36):
Yeah, I know, most people don't know. We're very grateful
that you decided to spend this evening with us, and
we're really looking forward to this subject. So I guess
let's start off with how did you find yourself studying
African proverbs and start relating them to the Judeo Christian

(01:09:58):
theological world.

Speaker 2 (01:10:01):
Thank you for the very kind and generous introduction. I'm
not a scholar, but well, for some reason, as a kid,
I decided I wanted to know as much about Africa
as I could, and I don't know if you remember records,
but I sent away for LPs teach yourself Swahili, and
I still remember how to greet an elder. Chikim omz

(01:10:24):
joined a Swahili language plut at my workplace.

Speaker 10 (01:10:27):
Anyway, so I had this interest since I was a kid.

Speaker 2 (01:10:31):
I went to as you said, I went to University
of Pittsburgh, studied African development or economic and social development
with an African focus where possible, and I met people
from all of the continent, from Nigeria, Tanzania, Mali, and
it really opened up a world for me. And I

(01:10:54):
started collecting books of African proverbs to try to understand
the culture is better. And those books stayed with us
every move. It's we have tons of other stuff that
those books stayed. And then about ten years ago I
came across books you might be aware of that came
out of the eighties called the Parallel Sayings.

Speaker 3 (01:11:17):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, right right.

Speaker 2 (01:11:21):
For those who don't know, if the include titles like
the Parallel Sayings of Jesus and Moses. It's a braided
tradition and it's great because the author says, you know,
repeats the verses where Jesus says.

Speaker 10 (01:11:34):
You have heard it said, but I say, and the
Jewish response is, well, we did say.

Speaker 2 (01:11:40):
You know, there were volumes on the Great Faith traditions
looking for parallels, like on topics like compassion and forgiveness.

Speaker 10 (01:11:52):
And I thought, this publisher needs an African edition.

Speaker 3 (01:11:58):
Right in this series, right yeah, yeah.

Speaker 14 (01:12:01):
And.

Speaker 2 (01:12:04):
That did not come to pass, you know, for various reasons.
It was decades ago that those books came out. But
so I just decided, well, I guess I'll be the
one to do it, so perhaps with holy boldness or
just plain old human boldness. I decided, well I'll do it,

(01:12:24):
but I recognize that I'm not from these cultures. So
I recruited about thirty African consultants, language and culture consultants
to guide me through it, to you know, validate is
this a proverb in your culture?

Speaker 10 (01:12:42):
What's the context? Is it use with children?

Speaker 2 (01:12:45):
And are there are there translation issues that would benefit
an English speaking audience to understand that would wish are understanding?
And it wasn't a generous, gracious outcorey of here are
some more proverbs for you. There are some more verses
that we think you should you should and you know,
my publisher had an original content specification, so the proverbs

(01:13:10):
are not me, the verses were not me. So I
had to I had to make some some tough choices.
But it was it was, it was lovely, it was
a labor of love, and there was such a gracious
response that I just, I really I was blessed by
the whole the whole project. So now I'm trying to

(01:13:31):
give it a little bit more attention.

Speaker 10 (01:13:32):
May I show them book?

Speaker 3 (01:13:33):
Yes, please, by all means, and we'll even get a
link in our chats here for thanks for you as well.

Speaker 2 (01:13:39):
So it came out in twenty twenty three, but it's
still is still a joy. I just came back from
a book festival in Pittsburgh, so I can talk about
it all day. And well, I'm so grateful that you
expressed interest.

Speaker 3 (01:13:53):
Yeah, definitely go ahead and show the book again. I
don't think the screen was on there at the time.

Speaker 4 (01:13:57):
Sure, I'm going to send you all a link link
to Amazon in the chat. Just give me a minute.

Speaker 3 (01:14:03):
So, I mean, were you surprised by these correlations or
were you expecting them? Because you know, I've always said
that when you really get outside of your paradigm and
you allow yourself, the freedom to step outside the box
of the categories we tend to put ourselves in. You
find that with spirituality, once you take off the appearances,

(01:14:27):
there's a perennial truth that seems to be inherent to
all of them. So in my mind, when I saw
this topic on our schedule, I thought, this is brilliant
because this is exactly the kind of thing that I
look for. And certainly in my mind, this proves my
point that there is a perennial truth. We're all trying

(01:14:48):
to find that some ways might be better than others,
and perhaps for certain types of people, certain ways are
better than others. But it doesn't surprise me entirely that
you're finding these para a little completely unrelated cultures, perhaps
you know, still sharing the same wisdom. So were you
surprised or not?

Speaker 2 (01:15:07):
Well, again, based on on you know, because I would
my books of African proverbs, I would I would go
back and I would sit with them.

Speaker 10 (01:15:15):
So I some of them have stayed with.

Speaker 2 (01:15:17):
Me for over thirty years.

Speaker 3 (01:15:19):
Oh wow, right, yeah, And so I.

Speaker 2 (01:15:20):
Started with about a half dozen that this reminds me
of that and that, and it grew to almost three
hundred African proverbs in the book, and I've still gotten more.

Speaker 10 (01:15:33):
I want to include it in a second edition.

Speaker 2 (01:15:38):
So to some extent, yeah, I was surprised, but as
you point.

Speaker 10 (01:15:40):
Out, there there is a perennial wisdom there.

Speaker 2 (01:15:42):
There there's African parallels to loving your neighbor, loving your enemy,
welcoming the stranger. All these themes that we think of
as as you know solidly Christian have counterparts in these,
in these various cult and it was just a joy
to put together.

Speaker 10 (01:16:02):
I'd like to offer you one example.

Speaker 5 (01:16:04):
Sure, I was gonna say, can we hear one? Yes?

Speaker 2 (01:16:09):
The Ambo in Namibia, that's southwest Africa, just north of
of of the northwest of South Africa.

Speaker 10 (01:16:17):
The Avambo have a proverb eyes see me too.

Speaker 3 (01:16:22):
Mhm.

Speaker 2 (01:16:24):
Doesn't that remind you of Jesus's admonition about the beam
in your own eye and not focusing on them in.

Speaker 10 (01:16:31):
Somebody else's right.

Speaker 2 (01:16:34):
It's just it's such a such a striking, vivid construction.
It's a command to your own eyes see me too.
And there's a great humility in that, you know, which
which is necessary for any any kind of spiritual girth.

Speaker 10 (01:16:51):
I see me too, don't don't worry about those other people.

Speaker 2 (01:16:55):
So I mean, separated by thousands of miles, centuries of history,
and yet the same, the same wisdom emerges I point
out in the in the in the book, Uh what
what some who some Christians refer to Lady Wisdom and proverbs. Right,

(01:17:17):
we meet, we meet Lady Wisdom, and she is said
to have been present from the beginning with God, right,
and uh.

Speaker 10 (01:17:27):
A couple of things. She's just she goes on. But
those who who find.

Speaker 2 (01:17:33):
Me find life, and those who fail to find me
will harm themselves mutely.

Speaker 10 (01:17:41):
In other words, you're going to learn the hard way.

Speaker 2 (01:17:43):
Yeah, you know. And a lot of the African proverbs
have that element that that that element in them about consequences.

Speaker 3 (01:17:54):
You know, Africa is such a complex political entity, you know,
a continent of much variation and diversity culturally as well.
Do you find do you find that there's contradiction between
them or did? Did? Are they remarkably unified across the

(01:18:16):
continent with these ideas and as principles.

Speaker 2 (01:18:23):
There there's there's huge, wide variation, absolutely absolutely, But a
couple of things emerge across cultures, and one is the
sense of God imbued in in all aspects of life.

(01:18:43):
God is, God is ever present to the extent that
you don't necessarily need to invoke God all the time.
You're you're just aware, you know, there's a there's the Holy.

Speaker 5 (01:18:57):
Presence.

Speaker 2 (01:18:58):
Right in some culture God has thought it was more
distant from human life, but there is still that sense
of of and and the sacred in the secular as
in many traditional cultures around the world, were not necessarily separated, right.
And the other is respect for ancestors comes up across

(01:19:20):
across many, many different cultures. But when you look at
like the sources, it's it's there. It's oral, you know, traditions,
and like one of my one of the compilations, it
was like hundreds and hundreds of of proverbs. And so

(01:19:40):
there's gonna be some some contradiction, there's going to be
some humor, there's going to be some rebeled you know,
or very frank you know proverbs. So they're not they're
not all.

Speaker 10 (01:19:55):
Matchable, they're not.

Speaker 2 (01:19:57):
All necessarily parallel with each other. They're not in turn
since their only internally consistent even within a single culture,
but or ordness or with you know, Bible wisdom. But
you know, so and there are some websites where you
can find a proverb of the day, African proverb of
the day, because this African cultures have have like polished

(01:20:20):
this literary form to a high art. It's it's their succinct,
their pithy. They're deep and often because they're meant to
be used with children, they're intended to be memorable. Right,
So it's it's just it's you know, it's I find

(01:20:43):
that it transcends, even it comes across even in translation.
You know, the power and the vividness they tend to
stay with you.

Speaker 5 (01:20:54):
I'm so interested in this. I mean, I'm a bit of.

Speaker 6 (01:20:56):
An idiom collector myself, partly I think because I'm from
originally I'm in Australia now, but I'm originally from the
northwest of England and in England like yeah, yeah, So
I was born in Lancashire and grew up in Cheshire
and in England we're very much a county people.

Speaker 5 (01:21:15):
Each county has its own collection.

Speaker 6 (01:21:17):
Of idioms and it tells you something about the way
that I'll give you an example rather than try and
explain it. So in Lancashire there's a there's an idiot
that says it's either mock or nettles. Okay, Now that's
the same thing as it's between a rock and a
hard place, right, you know, they've got two choices. It's

(01:21:37):
either mock or nettles.

Speaker 5 (01:21:39):
Neither are good.

Speaker 6 (01:21:39):
Right, But the proverb also tells you how Lancastrians communicate.
It's kind of mock is a very Anglo Saxon sound, right,
It's it's direct, no nonsense, it's sort of.

Speaker 8 (01:21:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:21:52):
They don't beat around the bush at all.

Speaker 6 (01:21:54):
And so, and I always think, you know, if you're
trying to learn another language, you know, I only know
useless languages that no one speaks, like you know, Kini,
Greek and ancient Hebrew and Latin.

Speaker 5 (01:22:05):
But the you know I have.

Speaker 6 (01:22:09):
I've had various brother in laws over the years who've
been from One was from Barcelona. So I think, well,
if I want to understand him, I'm going to look
at the idioms of Catalunia, you know, because it tells you,
it tells you more about more about culture than translations impossible, right,
And so idioms helped with the transliteration process of being

(01:22:32):
able to understand. And that's so that's common to the Bible,
right as absolutely literal translations of Kini Greek from the
especially ancient Hebrew actually would make almost no sense to us.
You know, certain passages you have to have the sort
of yeah, the cultural context in order to get any

(01:22:55):
meaning at all out of it.

Speaker 5 (01:22:56):
So has that been your kind of experience of looking
at African proverbs.

Speaker 2 (01:23:03):
Thinking about translation issues brings brings another proverb to mine,
and that's there's a Swahili proverb.

Speaker 10 (01:23:10):
There's just a fountain of wisdom.

Speaker 2 (01:23:12):
Univer See, Illinois has a great treasury of Swahili proverbs
you can find online.

Speaker 10 (01:23:20):
It's the shortest in the book.

Speaker 2 (01:23:22):
Anger loss, Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:23:26):
Right, that's fantastic, right, It just.

Speaker 2 (01:23:32):
Distills everything down in Swahili. The in Swahili, the proverb
is hasira hassara, So you loose some rhythm, you lose
some alliteration, but it still comes across. And that second
word hassara, he's lost and damage and both are true

(01:23:54):
loss anger loss anger damage. Anger can lead to loss.
And I paired that with calls in your in your
anger too sin.

Speaker 5 (01:24:07):
You know so much, or Jesus, or Jesus.

Speaker 6 (01:24:10):
If you're angry at your neighbor, you know, it's the
same as thou shalt not kill, right, you know, it's
the if you've got anger in your heart, then you
then you've got murderous intentions sort of thing.

Speaker 3 (01:24:21):
Yeah, you know, I'm always amazed at how much we
actually derive, you know, from Africa. I mean right down
to our own biology. I mean, it's largely positive that
you know, Homo sapien comes out of Africa, right, So

(01:24:42):
it's it's a remarkable ancestral location. But I sometimes wonder
if perhaps maybe these parallels are because they gave them
to us, because so much of what is the Bible
did come out of Africa. I mean, you know, gnosticism
and you know, would was kind of one of the
I could say, even though it was rejected by the

(01:25:04):
Church initially, it comes out of this very sophisticated philosophical
culture of the northern African area, you know, of course
Alexandria all that, Yeah, the library exactly, So I would
imagine that. I know, it's very tragic to think what

(01:25:24):
we lost, but yeah, I think sometimes maybe that wisdom
that found its way into the Bible actually is coming
to us from Africa at some earlier time. Do you
think that's possible.

Speaker 2 (01:25:39):
Yeah, it's hard to trace the connections. Yeah, especially with
oral traditions inherently in the In the nineteenth century, Bishop SAMUELA.
Jih Crowther, the first Eure Anglican bishop, quite a life.
He endured slavery, and he he collected europe proverbs, in

(01:26:05):
some cases pairing them with scripture. And you have to
assume the proverbs he wrote down then and have anti
sedents that go back you know, you know, but it's
hard to know in oral culture without maybe philologists could
do it, folkloris could do it.

Speaker 6 (01:26:24):
But even if you if you read the Desert Fathers,
the you know, the sayings that the Desert Fathers are
very close to this in tone and intention, and obviously
they're very deliberately responding, you.

Speaker 5 (01:26:40):
Know, post the post the christ event.

Speaker 6 (01:26:43):
But yeah, it sounds very very what you shared so
far sounds very similar to their sort of Native Americans proverbs.

Speaker 4 (01:26:52):
That's what I think of too. Start to interrupt Native
American proverbs similar things. I can pull one up right now,
I had to pull up one. Listen to the wind,
it talks, Listen to the silence, it speaks, Listen to
your heart. It knows that's the Holy Spirit.

Speaker 3 (01:27:08):
Yeah, and that's shamanic tribal shamanic tribal culture. So it
there is something to be said for the direct approach
I think.

Speaker 4 (01:27:18):
I think culture has its group of wise men that
come up with with, you know, things we could all
learn from from their wisdom and their experience. I think
every culture comes up with the same answers when they
truly look for the answers of why we're here, what
we're what our purpose is. It's just different and in
a different language, but it means the same thing.

Speaker 8 (01:27:39):
Well.

Speaker 3 (01:27:39):
See, this is one of the things that I sometimes
struggle with because right, yes, but I mean one of
the things I struggle with in Catholicism is the fact
that we tend to over complicate everything. You know, we
we have to overly define everything. I love a Quintas,
I really do, but he gets so technical and legalistic

(01:28:03):
about making sure we understand the hows to help everything
that it gets to a point where it loses people,
becomes almost too intellectual, too academic, that you have to
be high level academia before you can even begin to
approach it.

Speaker 6 (01:28:18):
And yeah, I think that genres really important, like Thomas
Aquinas is obviously a genius, like the no questions.

Speaker 3 (01:28:25):
Yeah, no questions.

Speaker 6 (01:28:26):
But he when he was writing that, he was pushing
his thinking to the limit. He wasn't thinking, I'm writing
a handbook for the agent.

Speaker 2 (01:28:35):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (01:28:37):
So you know, and from from what I mean, when
you read a lot of Thomas Aquinas, I think he
gleaned something into into what his character is like. I
can't imagine that that that he I think he'd be
surprised that we're still talking about it.

Speaker 3 (01:28:52):
It might be, but but my point about it is
though that we lose I think some of that earlier
connection that we're you know, God doesn't have to be
too complicated, you know, it doesn't have to be.

Speaker 5 (01:29:06):
So it's both and doesn't it.

Speaker 6 (01:29:09):
I mean, you mentioned As because As describes God also
as the simplest, the simplest principle at the same time, so,
you know, but in order to be to be so
simple is because all things are contained within within himself.

Speaker 5 (01:29:26):
That you know, God is the very essence of being itself.
So so that that is a very simple view of God.

Speaker 6 (01:29:34):
But of course the implications to us are anything but simple.
And so in other words, because we are, we are,
we are not the essence of being itself. Our approach
is complicated. It's both and right. You know, it's neat
for the strong and it's milk for the weak. You know,
it's you know, this is the this is the paradox

(01:29:54):
of the Christian faith.

Speaker 3 (01:29:55):
And I'm glad we have that diversity. I'm glad. And
then I think sometimes Orthodoxy laughs at at how technical
we can get. But I mean, but.

Speaker 5 (01:30:06):
Palamas, I think you'll find they can do this.

Speaker 3 (01:30:08):
They can get I mean we all can't. But I
think that what I got a gusha I remember is
I got Father Chris here and Deacon Chris. I got
to make sure I'm using the right time with Deacon Chris.
You know, the the that simplicity speaks to me because
I think that's what is going to be approachable to

(01:30:31):
the average lay person. You know that they can take
this and digest it in a way that it brings
meaning to their life.

Speaker 4 (01:30:39):
Think about it two words anger loss. Yeah, I mean
you don't have to be a rocket scientist.

Speaker 3 (01:30:48):
Yeah, we've all it's it speaks to the human experience.
So do you find that to be true? In all,
you said, three hundred proverbs you've collected for this almost it.

Speaker 2 (01:30:58):
Was ninety or something when I out publication, there's while
they represent you know, uh, perennial, the perennial tradition, right,
they they there is a beauty in their use of
metaphor and imagery. And in paradox, there's a you're of

(01:31:24):
a proverb, the wealth that enslaves is not wealth.

Speaker 3 (01:31:30):
Right, mhmm. That's a great one. Yeah, that's a great one.

Speaker 2 (01:31:37):
Yeah. And you know of course that that that's consistent
with all the teachings about not story of treasures on Earth.

Speaker 3 (01:31:43):
Well also and the love of money is the root
of all evil, right, people like to people like to
make it. You know, money is the root of all iris.
And that's what not what it says, the love of money.
And that's kind of more speaking to what you're talking
about here. It's a specific type of wealth.

Speaker 10 (01:31:59):
You know, right, the wealth and slaves is not well,
it's a kind of povery.

Speaker 3 (01:32:04):
Yeah, yeah, it's it's.

Speaker 6 (01:32:08):
Morally morally uh, it's moral poverty, right, you know, it's
a slave is in poverty because they're a slave. A
slave owners in poverty because they're morally corrupted.

Speaker 2 (01:32:22):
Right.

Speaker 6 (01:32:25):
I mean, are you are you kind of are you
familiar with I know he's a Roman Catholic theologian, but
with the work of Karl Rana, Yes, the anonymous Christian.
So because I mean it's ringing in my ears. You know,
I've got I've got a linguistic interest in idioms, but
I've also got the kind of theological interest which Karl Rana.
The short version is there is only one God. He's everywhere.

(01:32:49):
Every human being response to God because they're created.

Speaker 5 (01:32:51):
In the Gyman's likeness. That's why there's similarities across.

Speaker 10 (01:32:55):
Culture, that very African idea.

Speaker 2 (01:33:00):
He's the one who said in the future will be Christians,
Christians will be mystics, do nothing at all.

Speaker 5 (01:33:06):
Not great question.

Speaker 10 (01:33:08):
I'm still I'm wrestling with that.

Speaker 5 (01:33:13):
Yeah, me too.

Speaker 6 (01:33:14):
I mean, I think I'm a bit of a mystic,
even though I'm really it can be hyper rational.

Speaker 5 (01:33:19):
God gave me a brain. I should use it. But really,
but really, you know, I am I.

Speaker 6 (01:33:28):
I think I think really in mystical terms in interaction
with people in the world, and use the rational to
help to.

Speaker 5 (01:33:39):
I don't know, knit that together a bit. That's my
sort of approach to life.

Speaker 3 (01:33:44):
Experience too.

Speaker 6 (01:33:46):
You can get lost either way, right if you get
if you're completely like you know, sorry to use the
son again, totally esoteric.

Speaker 5 (01:33:54):
Then you end up being a sort of you know,
I don't know, you're not that much used to people,
you know.

Speaker 3 (01:34:02):
I was just going to say, yeah, the.

Speaker 6 (01:34:06):
Hyper ordered like hyper like academic onlyble.

Speaker 5 (01:34:11):
You can't communicate the way.

Speaker 4 (01:34:13):
You're missing happier audience. Basically, That's what I love.

Speaker 2 (01:34:18):
About African proverbs is that they assume or presume the
mystic to mention, but they're very grounded, very practical.

Speaker 5 (01:34:29):
What's going to ask? Is it connected to geography?

Speaker 14 (01:34:32):
So?

Speaker 6 (01:34:32):
I mean the example I gave you from Lancashire is
mook or nettles In Lancashire, there's lots of nettles and
there's lots of milk, right, and there's another one there's
there's no mook without brass anyway.

Speaker 5 (01:34:42):
But leaving that aside, the.

Speaker 6 (01:34:46):
Are the kind of geographical sort of connections like people
near rivers or is that reflected in any of these
idioms If you look at that aspect.

Speaker 2 (01:34:55):
One thing that comes to mind is you know, a
man reads for he sows.

Speaker 10 (01:34:59):
And is universal.

Speaker 2 (01:35:00):
You will find versions of that all around the world. Right,
there's one from from West Africa. You tapped the palm wine.
Now drink it.

Speaker 5 (01:35:12):
That's what I was getting out Christmas you were looking for.

Speaker 3 (01:35:17):
Yes, there's another thing that that comes to mind. I've
been teaching a I teach a class on on Saturday afternoons,
and right now we've been studying Voodan and right now
we're in the section of its African origins and how
it sort of developed in Hispaniola, which you know, of
course is modern day Haiti and Dominican Republic, and how

(01:35:40):
Haiti is still the central place for Fudan. And you know,
the one thing that's remarkable about Vudan as a as
a religious system. You know, people always know it through
the voodoo and all the dramatic stuff, but it's it's
it's a true religion. It's a monotheistic religion. It's a
it does have ancest worship, but it's not it's not

(01:36:03):
like paganism, even though it can sometimes I think people
think it is. But what what is interesting is, you know,
can be traced back to the Homie Empire and some
interesting dynamics that are curred of course around the sixteen
seventeen hundreds. But the one thing that's remarkable about this

(01:36:24):
Western African religion is that the reason it survived and
the people survive through the oppression of slavery and everything
else was because they these religions are very malleable. They're
very open to absorbing new ideas. Unlike Christianity, Judaism and Islam,

(01:36:46):
which can be somewhat narrow minded in myopic and it's
approached like our way or the highway. They don't look
at it that way, and so they were easily they
easily adopted a Catholists like, Okay, we're gonna we're gonna
be forced into thought. Well, we're just gonna we're gonna
adopt some of these things, integrate them into what we
already do. They don't need to know. The white guys
don't need to make this happen.

Speaker 14 (01:37:08):
You know.

Speaker 3 (01:37:08):
It's an interesting thing, and it's but I find it remarkable.
So I sometimes wonder if what you're studying here with
these films, with this, you know, which is corely you know,
in the core African philosophy, and as a way of life,
not even spiritual, just as a way of life, can
be applied to the secular in the same way that
some of this is because by its nature adaptable and

(01:37:33):
relatable across the human experience.

Speaker 10 (01:37:37):
I think that's a very good insight.

Speaker 2 (01:37:39):
One of my dear friends, she's a Kenyon, but she
grew up overseas because her father was a diplomat. Okay,
but she was raised with proverbs and she wasn't particularly religious,
but they sort of shape her worldview, right, They grounded
her in the same way that the others experienced scripture.

(01:38:00):
It's it's she she inherited a world of wisdom.

Speaker 3 (01:38:04):
Yeah, so it's me.

Speaker 10 (01:38:06):
It's interesting that you mentioned Haiti and I have a.

Speaker 2 (01:38:09):
Few from from Haiti, Guyana, Jamaica, Jamaica. The prayer way,
prayer in the mouth only is no prayer. Do not
be here, right, Yeah, prayer in the mouth only, it
is not prayer. You know, there's a one of the

(01:38:29):
ones from Haiti is a stumble moves you forward.

Speaker 3 (01:38:32):
Oh. I like that one. Yeah, right, that was like
zen codes. You know they're they they're.

Speaker 2 (01:38:38):
Very the coneys.

Speaker 10 (01:38:42):
The coneist one is from East Africa.

Speaker 2 (01:38:43):
Swahilian. There's there's a Swahilian is a Sukuma. Losing the
way is one way of finding it.

Speaker 3 (01:38:52):
I like that one.

Speaker 2 (01:38:53):
All things work the good for those who love the Lord.
I mean, it's it's assumed, it's presumed that that second
part very work in part.

Speaker 10 (01:39:00):
But you know, if you're.

Speaker 2 (01:39:02):
Trusting God, you know you you you may wander, you
may make mistakes, but you know, losing the way is
one way of finding it. Keep going.

Speaker 3 (01:39:10):
There's this wonderful Buddhist one that that one that you
just shared reminded me of. It usually shocks students when
I introduce it for the first time. We talked about
is one of my favorite ones is if you see
Buddha walking on the path, kill him. And of course
that means that you know, any any any conceptualization is ego.

(01:39:35):
You know, it's it's your own ego that you're worshiping,
So you need to get out of the way. We
can as Christians apply that because I think sometimes we
have the tendency to idolatry, you know, turn into an
object of idolatry the Bible or our own concept of
what we want Jesus to be like, right, and we
miss the real God that way, by creating a God

(01:39:58):
in our own images that of the other way around.
So I think that that's a Buddhist concept that applies
perfectly to Christiana. If you look at it that way,
and I'm sure if you dig around in your book
you probably find one that's like that too. You know,
it sounds like you already said one, so you know
that's yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:40:15):
The area have a proverb you cannot lean on emptiness.

Speaker 3 (01:40:21):
Oh yeah, yeah, I like that. Confusion. Yes, it is confusion,
and I mean it's almost like it's like, you know,
like the fortune cookies that have like the sayings, they
don't really have confusion stuff on them anymore. It's really
just silly stuff.

Speaker 4 (01:40:42):
Stand up.

Speaker 1 (01:40:42):
Eight.

Speaker 4 (01:40:44):
I don't know if that was that's a good one.

Speaker 3 (01:40:46):
I don't know who said it, but it's good.

Speaker 4 (01:40:50):
Very just just like what he's saying. It's it's it's
very just to the point.

Speaker 3 (01:40:57):
Have you ever done any studies or extract any thing
from Ethiopia. It's a very Christian, you know, orthodox country.

Speaker 2 (01:41:05):
Yes, yeah, yes, king is honor of a converted to
Christianity in eighty six hundred, so they have had a
long independent Christian tradition. They have more books of their Bible,
their worship services go on for hours.

Speaker 5 (01:41:23):
In my Bible as well.

Speaker 2 (01:41:25):
Okay, it's it's just fascinating to me.

Speaker 10 (01:41:30):
But there's a few Ethiopian powers in the Book of.

Speaker 1 (01:41:33):
The One.

Speaker 2 (01:41:35):
Singing Hallelujah everywhere does not prove piety, which I mean,
doesn't that put you in mind of jesus admonission to
go good praying private?

Speaker 3 (01:41:46):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (01:41:51):
Sorry, well there will say Lord Lord.

Speaker 2 (01:41:57):
Yeah, because it was a Christian culture. Might that have
had some influence on that proverb? Yes?

Speaker 5 (01:42:06):
I don't know, but it's a Serbian proverb.

Speaker 6 (01:42:12):
I spent some time with the Serbian Orthodox Church and uh,
and they have a proverb.

Speaker 5 (01:42:16):
You know, it's easy to be a monk in a monastery.

Speaker 3 (01:42:19):
Oh, it's true. That's actually really practically true. Don't worry
about bills. You know what, what are you really stressed
out about? I mean, you have no bills. You know,
everything's taken care of for you. Of course, you can
pray all day long. It's easy, right, Yeah.

Speaker 6 (01:42:38):
And he's saying, you know because obviously in their tradition,
the customs that have the monks from Mount Athos would
be their resource, and you know, they'd come down and
they'd teach and or they'd write and and you think, yeah,
that's easy for you to say.

Speaker 10 (01:42:50):
On Mount Athos.

Speaker 5 (01:42:51):
You know, you're not surrounded by temptation everywhere.

Speaker 3 (01:42:54):
Like you know, yeah, sure, do you think do you
think Dick and Chris do you think do you think
they have the Arc of the Covenant in there. I've
always wondered about that.

Speaker 2 (01:43:03):
I don't know, I can't speak the list I got
something in there?

Speaker 3 (01:43:09):
Yeah, I would love to know. I mean, if you
ever find out, let me know. Some people have speculated.
I mean, it's I would think it's possible, but I
mean some people have speculated that, you know, in the
Orthodox Eastern Ethiopian Orthodox churches, they all have a little
Arc of the Covenant in their churches. It's part of

(01:43:29):
that tradition. And so some people have speculated that it's
just one of these multiple replica replicas that they put
in all the churches, and then somehow over time it
got attached that this is the real one. I don't know,
you know, but it's like Santa Claus perhaps, I mean,
And isn't that how proverbs sort of develop and they

(01:43:50):
you know, it starts with oral tradition, then it takes
on a life of its own, almost becomes an archetypal
entity after a while. So I mean, maybe maybe it
doesn't have to be historically true. For it to be true,
you know, right.

Speaker 2 (01:44:07):
I've been asked several times, do you think these all
started with Christian influence? Hard to say. I mean again,
you need the evidence going back generations.

Speaker 10 (01:44:18):
It's possible.

Speaker 2 (01:44:18):
But even even if so, like in the case of
the Ethiopian seeing Hellolia, everywhere the structure, the phrasing is
so different and so vivid, it's worth knowing because, you know,
knowing our own traditions so well, you can sometimes take
it for granted. And when that comes up, you know,

(01:44:41):
when we when we hear that same idea express differently,
it's oh, oh yeah, right right. Exdangelical Brian McLaren, who
was kind enough to dorse the book in one of
his earlier books, said, you know, if you if when

(01:45:03):
you learn about something in another tradition that is similar
to something in your own, you've begun to build a bridge.
And that was that was, you know, the inspiration.

Speaker 3 (01:45:14):
Just we certainly need more bridges in this world, right now.

Speaker 5 (01:45:18):
That's right, that's right, that's why he will being a Presbyterian.

Speaker 6 (01:45:23):
How many how many Scottish idioms do you know how
many Scottish Probably I have.

Speaker 2 (01:45:27):
Scotch Scottish ancestry, but very few and very few I
know about how many, very few. I've been to Edinburgh. Yeah, yeah,
it was over New Year, so it was very cold.

Speaker 5 (01:45:46):
You've got to love hills if you're in Edinburgh. Very
fond of steps, very fond of steps. Hills.

Speaker 3 (01:45:53):
Well, that's what the that's what the whiskey is for,
to get you through it. Yeah, have you found anything,
Deacon that would uh well, okay, okay, Chris, So I
just don't want I just figured, since we have two
chris is, maybe I need to use the tipe. But

(01:46:15):
do you did you ever find one that contradicted anything
that was part of your faith?

Speaker 2 (01:46:29):
That's a really good question. I have to get back
to you on that. The point was, was synthesis bringing
things together? Sure that reminded me of things in my tradition,
so I may have filtered them out. I had only
one one rule, one criterion that it not be based
on a translation, you know, and an external effort by

(01:46:53):
missionaries to indigenize something. And there was one that was
so tempting that I had the from Botswana and Tatswana
consider the tarantula they tornal.

Speaker 5 (01:47:06):
Knot that was that was it's beautiful, but it is
I wanted to.

Speaker 2 (01:47:16):
Make sure these these were you know, African voices or
you know, being centered certainly.

Speaker 1 (01:47:23):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:47:25):
And I mean there's, as you said, difficult to trace
back to the origin point here, because I mean, Africa
has been visited quite a bit in the last several
hundred years, and of course everybody takes their influence with them,
and you know, all of the colonies and everything else

(01:47:45):
certainly had an influence over these years. So it's sometimes
hard to know how much of this is original and
how much of this is just integration or syncretic. But
perhaps it doesn't really matter though, because if it is enduring, right,
then that means that it's still speaking to everyone.

Speaker 2 (01:48:03):
Yes, yes, And my African collaborator is telling me these
are still being used, yeah, you know, and and within
families and even at the international level, African diplomata will
sometimes use them with each other, you know, in agreements,
and you know, so I.

Speaker 6 (01:48:24):
Think we have loads of proverbs from our own tradition
that are opposed to Christian principles though, I mean, you know,
God helps those that helps themselves.

Speaker 5 (01:48:36):
That's a Greek proverb, right, yes, that.

Speaker 6 (01:48:41):
That's I mean, it's pre Christian like, but that's not
in tune with with Christian ideas, you know, and we
gain reward for for things we don't deserve. So it's
so we can look within our own traditions of proverbs
that are that are contrast to the Christian faith.

Speaker 2 (01:49:01):
There's there's there's no I wouldn't say contradiction, but there's
one that comes to mind that excluded from the book
because I just I couldn't find a parallel. It's a
little frank the day you're going dac it is the
day your in law's come to visit.

Speaker 3 (01:49:16):
That's a great one.

Speaker 1 (01:49:17):
I love that.

Speaker 3 (01:49:23):
Let's think about that.

Speaker 2 (01:49:24):
I just, you know, but I couldn't.

Speaker 3 (01:49:27):
I guess it's it means that the day that you
let your guard down is the day that you get
noticed for doing something. It's like, of all days I
had to do this, and now that's the day that
I get caught doing it.

Speaker 6 (01:49:40):
Always.

Speaker 5 (01:49:40):
Well, it's kind of like, you know, you don't know
the time.

Speaker 3 (01:49:43):
For the hour, but yeah, that's the one. There's a
parallel right there.

Speaker 4 (01:49:50):
You don't know when the father is going to come back, right,
just be ready, just be ready.

Speaker 3 (01:49:56):
That well, that's actually pretty accurate. I mean that could
be a that could be.

Speaker 5 (01:49:59):
A that's quite good.

Speaker 1 (01:50:01):
Yeah it is.

Speaker 5 (01:50:03):
Is that from Peter the time? In the hour one Pieter?

Speaker 14 (01:50:06):
Is it?

Speaker 1 (01:50:07):
Uh?

Speaker 2 (01:50:07):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (01:50:08):
One or two pizza? I can't remember.

Speaker 3 (01:50:11):
Well, it's also it's Gospels. I mean Jesus says that directly.
I'm saying that only the Father knows, you know. But
but uh yeah, I mean so it sounds like this
has been a rich faith experience for you, like it
actually has.

Speaker 2 (01:50:28):
Faith absolutely, yes, yes, absolutely, I think it can. Yeah,
I think it absolutely can't.

Speaker 3 (01:50:36):
What do you think of a.

Speaker 5 (01:50:37):
Component any difficulty? Sorry?

Speaker 3 (01:50:40):
Sorry, go ahead, go ahead, go ahead.

Speaker 5 (01:50:43):
Did your you know?

Speaker 6 (01:50:45):
I mean obviously you're in a Presbyterian church in West Virginia.
I'm only I'm only imagining.

Speaker 2 (01:50:50):
What it's like.

Speaker 6 (01:50:52):
Have you have you faced any kind of oh, that's
dangerous what you're playing with? If you had any any
of that sort of push back? Yeah, I mean you
were deacon in the church, so you know, have you
had any.

Speaker 2 (01:51:05):
Sort of core They my my church asked for a
signed copy for their library.

Speaker 5 (01:51:11):
I'm sure, yeah, so, And I'm.

Speaker 2 (01:51:15):
Beyond the church. I'm still waiting for my hate mail.
And don't I don't have any that's great.

Speaker 6 (01:51:22):
We all recognize that within within the church, and I
use the church in the broadest sense. There's a lot
of superstitious people within the church who think that they're
opposing superstition by being superstitious.

Speaker 2 (01:51:34):
Right, yes, yes, right, And i'm I'm I'm only too
aware that there are African American traditions where they were
told that this was demonic, all this was demonic and
you have to forget it. Yeah, you know, so that
maybe a little.

Speaker 6 (01:51:54):
Especially the Haitian stuff, presumably because of the whole association.

Speaker 2 (01:51:58):
Yes, but not only that, not only that, So there
may be some reluctance. I mean, I've talked to African
Americans who are like, you know, I appreciate you.

Speaker 6 (01:52:06):
You know.

Speaker 2 (01:52:07):
So that's not universal, but you know that, and there
might not be enough Jesus in it for some folks
because Jesus is not often mentioned.

Speaker 5 (01:52:20):
You know, Well, there are the books that do that though.
There are the books that do that, right, there are.

Speaker 2 (01:52:26):
The books that do that. And when I get asked
about this book, it's like, no, there there are there
are books of African Christology. This is not that there's
a book about Marinald fathers, and you know, working with
Swahili people and applying their faith in digital. This is
not that you know, there there are great African the
Alogians and great work. Now this is not that this

(01:52:48):
is just looking at proverbs and finding finding similar teachings
in our own tradition. There are.

Speaker 3 (01:52:57):
There's no shortage of I guess you could say some
of these newer evangelical churches that teach this kind of
mentality that if it's not of God, then it's all
of the devil. And I mean, fortunately, I've never met
a Presbyterian that took that approach, you know, and certainly

(01:53:18):
not a Catholic or an Orthodox I've ever met that
took that approach. But some of these newer churches do
teach this. I had the unfortunate experience of dealing with
it firsthand once, and I was flabbergasted. I you know,
this was before I really knew was out there. I
come from a very you know, very very small Roman

(01:53:38):
Catholic town. Everybody is Roman Catholic, so you know, I
thought that was what Christianity was, and I had no
idea there was that much variety. As I really get
out there in the world. But yeah, so I would
think that there's probably people that would reject it on
the basis that, oh, that's from Africa, that's that's paganism
or something. You know, just the same mentality that that

(01:53:59):
the the colonists had when they were conducting the slave trade.
You know, it's like the dismiss them, dismiss the savages.
They don't know what they're talking about. And and and
there are unfortunate people that still kind of have that
kind of mentality today. No matter how you try to
speak to them, you just can't reason with them. But
it's unfortunate. And this is one of the things that

(01:54:21):
I've always endeavored to do with my ministry was to
you know, open up my uh my range of material
to work with for inspiration. It doesn't all have to
be authoritative. I don't have to teach it from the
pulpit like it's the word of God. But I that
doesn't mean I can't be inspired by it and and

(01:54:42):
and use it. Do you find like, how do you
how do you balance it for you? Or is it
as simple as I just said, I mean, are you
are you really just you know, drawing inspiration and and
and and letting it take you where it takes you,
or do you find any of it authoritative in the
same sense that you know, Christians would look at a
Bible verse for example, my.

Speaker 15 (01:55:04):
My, my.

Speaker 2 (01:55:07):
Touchtop is always Jesus, right, yeah, for and you'll know
it by its fruits.

Speaker 3 (01:55:14):
It's a good one to go by, right.

Speaker 2 (01:55:16):
But but the fruits of these proverbs would no doubt
be similar. I mean, I don't. I didn't wrestle with
authority too much. Although I all of my thirty sum reviewers,
I gave them the proverbs I intended to the Bible verses.
I intended to compare them to so they they knew

(01:55:39):
and they were all just because, as I said, you know,
African Americans were encouraged to forget this heritage. Africans were too.
The Kenyan scholar and Luki Watchjongo, who you passed last week,
wrote that, you know, all the European colonial powers.

Speaker 10 (01:55:58):
Ignited it, your bam figuratively.

Speaker 2 (01:56:02):
You know that that Uh instructed the residents of the country.
Nothing a value came before us.

Speaker 4 (01:56:13):
Sounds familiar, something happened here.

Speaker 2 (01:56:15):
So I didn't ask explicitly.

Speaker 6 (01:56:17):
That's what motivated Karana, right, That was his motivation for
writing the Anonymous Christian was to stop that approach.

Speaker 5 (01:56:24):
It was to stop the.

Speaker 6 (01:56:25):
Whole Oh you know, you had your ridiculous paganism, that
was evil, and now here's the guests become a Christian.

Speaker 5 (01:56:32):
It was, it was, it was directly motivated to to
prevent that approach.

Speaker 6 (01:56:39):
More to say, well, it was simple at the Areopagus,
that was the that was the inspiration where he goes
to the Athenians and he says, you, wise, Athenians, you've
got to shrine to an unknown god. Let me tell
you who that god is. In other words, using what's
already there to to then you know, represent that in
a Christian light, which is far healthier evangelism. It's actually

(01:57:02):
it's actually how we evangelize people anyway.

Speaker 5 (01:57:05):
You know, no one really cruci faith by being banged
on the head because religion.

Speaker 2 (01:57:11):
What really struck me, as as you said before, is
that is that the proverbs make it these ideas accessible
to people who are not religious. The proverbs aren't inherently religious.
There aren't. There are some that come from societies that
are now predominantly Christian, some that were historically Muslim MHM,

(01:57:32):
and and many that were for lack of a better word,
traditional religious. That were very right, right, so they're not.
But they're not.

Speaker 10 (01:57:44):
As I said before, the.

Speaker 2 (01:57:45):
Proverbs are not necessarily inherently religious. They don't have a
religious religious label, so they can be appreciated by anyone.

Speaker 10 (01:57:56):
And that that I think is also a value. That's
the book.

Speaker 6 (01:58:00):
I'd love it the next hour to look at our
proverbs being generated in our own time.

Speaker 5 (01:58:06):
You know, it is with our own culture.

Speaker 3 (01:58:10):
You know, we'll we'll have to think about that one.
We'll take the break here at the top of the hour.
And yeah, good, good, good, good good segue, father, good segue.
We're going to take our break here, and when we
come back, we'll be talking with Chris Morehouse more about
his book and the Proverbs of Africa, and any of
your questions to put them in the chat room now

(01:58:32):
and we'll bring them to the discussion and the next
hour to go away.

Speaker 16 (01:58:45):
Those celestial messengers reminding us that even the smallest rock
can have a hand.

Speaker 5 (01:58:50):
Of Scott in books.

Speaker 16 (01:58:55):
Destroyed Earth of tiny blue spec addressed in the vast

(02:00:30):
cosmic of shaped by the dance of asteroids, our whole
existence of crests on the edge of this delicate balance
between creation and chaos asteroids, reminding us that even the

(02:01:50):
smallest block can have a hand at sculpting.

Speaker 15 (02:01:53):
Worlds ststance and still, stop, Stem still Stas and stetson

(02:02:14):
and span, stays and still and spell status South.

Speaker 17 (02:02:20):
Stanston Status sus suspect Southton south south and and sposa
southsta Bastonuston stare past Statuta b b.

Speaker 1 (02:03:03):
B b b b b bu usutu to.

Speaker 14 (02:07:26):
F f f.

Speaker 1 (02:07:37):
F f f f f f f.

Speaker 18 (02:07:47):
F f f f foot the Big.

Speaker 1 (02:08:46):
Dolls, the.

Speaker 3 (02:09:25):
Welcome back everyone to the third and final hour of Vestiges.
After Dark. We've been having a fantastic and engaging conversation
with Chris Morehouse about his book on African proverbs and
how they relate to sscriptural wisdom. If you've got a question,
you're more than welcome to call into the show two

(02:09:45):
zero seven five four four nineteen eighty three. That's two
seven five four four nineteen eighty three, or as most
of you seem to prefer, you can also ask your
questions in the chat. Our moderators will bring them to
our attention and we will present them. Yeah, this has
been a great conversation. I've really enjoyed this and I

(02:10:06):
can't wait for more. So don't go anywhere, you know, Chris,

(02:11:58):
there is so much conflict in the world today. I mean,
there's always been conflicts in the world. I guess that's
nothing new, but you know, there's it seems that there's
more conflict between like groups today, Like here in the
United States, it's it's divided right down the middle into

(02:12:18):
two completely separate ideologies. It seems it wasn't that way
when I was a child, not to that degree anyway.
So you know, things have seemed to change, and not
necessarily for the better. Africa is certainly no no stranger
to conflict. It seems like every day there's they're rearranging

(02:12:40):
the maps. I've got a globe from when I was
I got a globe when I was in grammar school,
and you go to Africa, it does you can't even
recognize much of it anymore. So conflict is is par
for the course over there. So are there are there
any specific proverbs that you've collected that might help us

(02:13:04):
to overcome conflict, to get a new perspective that maybe
if people started listening to these things, we could maybe
move forward in a better direction.

Speaker 2 (02:13:15):
That is a great question, and a couple come to mind.
This is why here you have a proverb. It's better
to build bridges than walls.

Speaker 4 (02:13:24):
Sounds familiar.

Speaker 3 (02:13:25):
Yeah, yeah, it did.

Speaker 2 (02:13:27):
Showed up in the second of paraphrase, showed up in
the second Wakanda movie.

Speaker 3 (02:13:31):
Oh yes, that's right.

Speaker 2 (02:13:32):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (02:13:36):
Well, and actually the title for the pope, the official
title is pont Effects, which is a bridge builder, right right.

Speaker 3 (02:13:44):
Yes, it doesn't always work out that way, but maybe
this way, maybe Leo will do it for us, you think,
And I mean, so.

Speaker 5 (02:13:51):
The only measure is if they will build bridges, they
will be a good pope. That's their job.

Speaker 3 (02:13:55):
Yeah, I guess that's a good way to look at it.

Speaker 2 (02:13:58):
Yeah, yes, And I you know, it put me in
mind of reconciliation and how much that is hard work.
You know, there have been people at it for working
hard for decades in Ireland, in South Africa, in other

(02:14:19):
places all over the world, and it just it just
humbles me, like to think of those people, those saints
who worked on this as a vocation. There's another one again,
orba they keep coming up with a peacemaker often receives

(02:14:39):
a wound m hmm, which to me, that's Easter. That
is Easter. But it puts me in mind of of
like you know, Gandhi and Oscar Romero, you know, and
and people like that who were who assassinated by coreligionists.

(02:15:03):
You know, if you if you do the active work
of peacemaking, you know, you're you become vulnerable.

Speaker 6 (02:15:11):
There's two proverbs from the Book of Proverbs in the
Bible that relates to this that are kind of amusing,
but I'll mentioned now. One is the proverbs twenty one
nine it's better to live in the corner of the
housetop than in a house shared with a quarrelsome wife.

(02:15:32):
And another one I think these do relate. They do
Proverbs twenty six seventeen. Whoever meddles in a quarrel not
his own, is like one who takes a passing.

Speaker 5 (02:15:42):
Dog by the ears.

Speaker 6 (02:15:47):
And I think between those two proverbs there's a lot
of a lot Western countries could learn.

Speaker 3 (02:15:55):
I mean, certainly, certainly. I mean, I think I think
one of the key l to success in any kind
of relationship, be it an intimate one or a professional one,
is communication. And that's the bridge building. Of course, you
can't have it without communication. Communication is central to it all.

(02:16:18):
And with communication, it's not just that alone. You know,
two people can can yell at each other all day
long they're communicating, They're not necessarily understanding each other though,
and understanding, what I think, is the companion to it.
So when you talk about bridge building, that's what I
think of. I think of communicating through understanding, you know,

(02:16:39):
trying to put yourself into another person's perspective, put yourself
in another person's shoes. Isn't that of proverbs somewhere? Maybe
it's a Native American one. I'm not sure, you know,
but it's there's truth there because that's not what people
are doing today. I think, really what it is is
that I'm right, you're wrong, and I don't care what

(02:17:00):
your perspective is. I'm not going to listen to it.
I'm going to cancel cultureate, or I'm going to you know,
demonize you because you hold of you that I absolutely
will not even entertain. And there can be no progress
in such a person. You know, you can't, you can't grow.

(02:17:21):
Doesn't mean you have to agree. Understanding doesn't mean agreement,
It just means respect, I think. So I'm sure there's
a lot of proverbs about that, and you know out.

Speaker 10 (02:17:31):
There, there's.

Speaker 2 (02:17:37):
What gives me some hope is that there's a lot
of work on the ground in this country. You're absolutely
right about the divides and people not making the effort
to understand another point of view. But Robert P. Jones,
in his book Quite Too Long, talks about, you know,
local reconciliation efforts across the South, churches visiting each other.

(02:18:04):
Brian Elaine has written edited two books with contributions from
from many people engaged in local work, How to Healer Divide.

Speaker 3 (02:18:16):
I'd recommend that, Well, you do some ecumenical work, I understand.
So what do you find in that context to be
the greatest challenges that you face.

Speaker 2 (02:18:30):
I'm not. I'm not engaged in the ecumenical work in
my community.

Speaker 3 (02:18:35):
Oh okay, I must have misread that, I see.

Speaker 10 (02:18:38):
Okay, but you know I'm aware of it and support it.

Speaker 3 (02:18:43):
We absolutely needed, Yeah, we don't. I don't think there's
enough of it, to be honest, I really do, and
I think even within the churches. I mean, I was
always surprised to find I think one of the most
discouraging and disappointing aspects of Orthodoxy when I was bloring
Orthodoxy as a as as as a as my faith.

(02:19:05):
It was just how ethnic ethnically exclusive each individual iteration is. There's, yeah,
there's not much tolerance between Greek and Russian Orthodoxy and
and uh, especially now at the moment. But you know,
even in the even in the Russian Orthodox Church of America,

(02:19:27):
you know, there isn't really a whole lot of of
of congregating between the two. And it's it's really kind
of sad and surprising. Even in the Eastern Catholic churches.
You know, we have right here in in in Atlanta,
there's a Melchite church, there's a Ruthenian church, and they

(02:19:51):
never interact with each other. I'm not even sure they
even know each other's pastors or bishops. It's pretty sad.
So even within similar like minded denominations, there's there's even exclusivity,
and it's it's it's that's really I think very problematic.

(02:20:12):
So you know, I think sometimes these proverbs, because they're
so universal, can if we let them, let us break
out of that kind of behavior so that maybe we can,
you know, recognize that there's actually less differences than you know,
then we think, you know, it doesn't appear that way

(02:20:32):
because the differences are the ones that stick out. The
similarities get ignored. But overall, we're really more alike than
we're than we're different.

Speaker 6 (02:20:41):
I think, you know, it isn't part of that understanding
the source of those differences.

Speaker 3 (02:20:48):
Though, I mean, yeah, like it is.

Speaker 5 (02:20:50):
I mean, I say this is obviously as an outsider.
I don't live in America. I'm not American.

Speaker 6 (02:20:55):
But what have in common with America, well with Anglo Americans,
is that we have a common origin, namely England, Scotland, Wales,
and Ireland.

Speaker 5 (02:21:06):
And the way America is settled reflects that.

Speaker 6 (02:21:12):
You know, you have the people from East Anglia that
settle in Massachusetts, you have the people from Scotland and
Northwest England settle in what we now call the Deep South,
and so you have you know, yeah, and it's in
the context of post English Civil War, so you have

(02:21:34):
all of that going into it. So of course you've
got Puritanical Protestants in certain regions of America. Of course
you have Catholics and different types of Catholics dotted throughout
the place. And I think there's a very poor level
of understanding of that for America. To understand itself in

(02:21:56):
a sense, needs to understand seventeenth century England. And by
the way, English people don't learn about that either. It's
you know, it's I don't think anyone learns anything anymore.
But yeah, but that's what lies behind all of these things,
and you know why why. It identifies what the constituencies are,

(02:22:22):
and that once you understand that, you figure out why
certain political figures appeal. You only have to appeal to
two out of three and you and you win, right,
So you know, it's that's the history of it. But
it's so poorly understood. I mean in Australia where I live,
no one here learns about the English Civil War. And
yet that's why there's never been a civil war here,

(02:22:45):
you know, because it happened before. You know, there's not
been a fight against the crown here because England learned
lessons from what happened in the American colonies.

Speaker 5 (02:22:56):
Like all these things integrate. But people's knowledge you've here
is so poor.

Speaker 3 (02:23:03):
Well, even even when it's taught, it's ignored. It's not
really very much paid attention to. I find.

Speaker 5 (02:23:09):
Oh, and it's taught, it's taught through a political lens,
which is so silly.

Speaker 3 (02:23:13):
That's true, it is. It is whitewash. Literally. Marina has
an interesting one in the chat, a German proverb, the
last shirt has no pocket. She says, it's based on
the death trout that kind of indicate that your money
won't come with you when you die.

Speaker 4 (02:23:30):
Yeah, I can't take it with you.

Speaker 3 (02:23:32):
Yeah, you can't take it with you. Yeah, but I
like that the last shirt has no pocket.

Speaker 2 (02:23:38):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (02:23:39):
Yeah, it's powerful. I mean it really is. They really
stay with you in German.

Speaker 4 (02:23:45):
That's got some clout because that that language is very
like your face. So I'd like to hear that Germany.

Speaker 3 (02:23:51):
That would be interesting. Yeah, I mean it is a
little intimidating to here German, isn't it. Brandon any questions
that you've seen or any of your own that you'd
like to present tonight.

Speaker 9 (02:24:03):
So I actually do have some questions. My first one
would be if, because you have a lot of proverbs,
what would be your top favorite proverb?

Speaker 10 (02:24:14):
And why do you choose that one?

Speaker 5 (02:24:17):
If you can, if you can choose one?

Speaker 2 (02:24:22):
In Madagascar a very very interesting culture. Their language is
distantly related to Hawaiian. They've been crossroads, Yeah, they've been
a crossroads of Africa, Arabia, Europe, you know, South Asia.
For centuries, they have a proverb all who live under

(02:24:44):
the sky are woven together like one big nat and
Doctor King spoke about a single garment of destiny about
us all being woven.

Speaker 10 (02:24:57):
Together, and that's just so powerful.

Speaker 2 (02:25:03):
And the scripture I pair with that is Paul's Inside
about the one God is being the one in whom
we live, move and have our being, which is coincidentally
such an African idea. Coincidentally that that's how that seems

(02:25:23):
to be the concept of love. It's very common across
different cultures, and I just think that points to a
common heritage and a shared destiny. The climate change pandemics.
You know, we're all woven together.

Speaker 6 (02:25:40):
Yeah, one thing, definitely, we're literally putting direct communication with
one another. Now, I mean, you know that's why you
know the internet is it is the printing press, right,
So when the printing press happens, we end up with
the prosestant reformation and all of the fallout from that.

(02:26:00):
And there's good things about that too, of course, but
the and with some loss, yeah yeah, but a lot
but benefit and loss, but still plenty of conflict and.

Speaker 5 (02:26:16):
Lack of security.

Speaker 6 (02:26:19):
Right, and so now that it's sort of that times
a million with the Internet, because one of my worries is,
and I hear it in my children that their idioms,
even the way they speak English, is heavily influenced by

(02:26:39):
American culture, right because Bolly Wooden, Because you know anything, Now,
it's not because I hate American culture or anything.

Speaker 5 (02:26:48):
It's not a negative. It's not I'm not being negative
about that.

Speaker 6 (02:26:52):
Within America, but it's there is a lot there is
a loss of their own cultural identity.

Speaker 5 (02:26:57):
Now, if that's happening to.

Speaker 6 (02:27:00):
Anglo English people, how much more for people from other
language groups and from other traditions who really in order
to sort of make economic progress have to have to
adopt all this stuff is you know, I mean, I'm
not saying that's a bad thing. I'm just saying it's
a thing. You know, it's something which is going to
impact our cultures. And it's almost the Tower of Babel again,

(02:27:23):
you know.

Speaker 3 (02:27:25):
Isn't it.

Speaker 2 (02:27:26):
I mean?

Speaker 3 (02:27:27):
In reality? And you know, if we embrace the unity
of the Holy Spirit, which is what the Holy Spirit's
primary function is, right, is unity, then that's supposed to
resolve Babel a Pentecost resolves Babel. It's the solution to Babyl,
you know. But again, if we're not listening, if we're

(02:27:49):
not taking the Holy Spirit into our life, then we
miss it, you know. We we we start to fall
back into the old pattern again and and that perpetuates
the problem all over again. So even though we have
access to this wonderful solution, well, it's kind of like medicine, right,
you're sick. The medicine to cure you exists, but you

(02:28:10):
still need to take it otherwise it's not going to
do anything for you. We we kind of are our
own undoing a lot. Any any proverbs that perhaps then
speak chris to some of the social problems today, you know,
in the sense of, you know, these these deep rooted

(02:28:31):
social issues that really are impacting people. Do we have
any that perhaps speak to those issues specifically?

Speaker 2 (02:28:43):
I can think of I can think of a couple
in terms of I have a short section God of creation.
There's a calm proverb that's gonna the earth has weight,
and there's a Swahili proverb God created the animals also

(02:29:05):
m h. So there's a sense of the sacredness of
creation there, and there's there's some interesting new work by
African environmentalists, and I talk about when Garima tied the
preeminent you know, tree planter of East Africa who won

(02:29:26):
the Nobel Prize. Beyond that, and there are there's also
some proverbs about youth leading the way, and I had
great hope that they will so across a range of
challenges that we're facing.

Speaker 3 (02:29:41):
I mean, that's that is the hope. But it's the
only hope really, because I mean, we're not going to
be around.

Speaker 4 (02:29:45):
Here forever and certainly not making it easy for me either.

Speaker 3 (02:29:47):
We're not making it easy for them. You know, we
set up a pretty bad uh well, like they definitely
were dealt a bad hand, but the deck was stacked
against them on top of it. So you know, it's
it's sad to see. I definitely feel for that because
I I worry about the youth of today. I do.

(02:30:07):
I really do, perhaps more so than any other concern
that I have. And it's not really my problem, it's theirs,
but it is something that I I wish I could
alleviate from their shoulders because I don't feel that they
really have been given as much of an opportunity as
any generation that came before, particularly you know, my own

(02:30:32):
or baby boomers. You know, I think we definitely had
more opportunities. So it's it's it's tough. And then you
look at the economics of today's time, and yes, you know,
it seems like the solutions are the problems. What I mean,

(02:30:52):
you know, I look at these economic issues that they're
trying to solve right now in this country, and it
just looks like everything that I have. You know, when
you really break down, I'm no, I'm no economist. Look,
I'm not a I'm not an economist, so I don't
pretend to be. But when I I do know a
little bit about finance and when and when when you
look at some of these plans that they've got worked

(02:31:13):
out that are supposed to be the so called solution,
it's it reads to me like deferment. You're just deferring
it so that your administration won't deal with it your exactly,
and then you can blame someone else, you find another
scapegoat that you won't you won't get the blame for it.
We can't, we can't function like that as a society.

Speaker 14 (02:31:34):
You know.

Speaker 6 (02:31:35):
Well, again, it's because there's a refusal to You see,
we have this stupid notion that all progress is good,
which which you know, is completely intellectually redundant if you
give it, you know, three seconds worth of thought. But

(02:32:00):
I mean Javier Emilie, for example, who's informing these miracles
in Argentina. Although not without great sacrifice, but in fairness,
he did say that. You know, he knew that what
he said was in his speech. If we want to
get to a position where like we were in the
nineteenth century, I might say when the British were running it,

(02:32:20):
but anyway, in the nineteenth century, where we were the
most prosperous, in fact, the richest country in the Americas,
richer than the USA. Okay, if we want to get
back to those circumstances, we should look at the circumstances
that were in play in that time and try and
recreate that. Now, that is a logical thing to do,

(02:32:41):
but there's a refusal in most Western cultures to want
to do that. You know, they'll talk about Reagan, for example, Oh,
we like Reagan, and in a sense sort of borrow
from the legacy of Reagan, but they're not going back
to Reagan's economic principles or Thatchers or Bob Hawk's in Australia.

(02:33:05):
By the way, Bob Hawk was a labor and labor
prime minister, but he had adopted those same high Echian
principles and it led to wealth.

Speaker 5 (02:33:15):
Not universally. There will winners and losers. They always are.

Speaker 6 (02:33:18):
But you know, from what I can tell, nobody in Australia,
the UK, the USA, which whose politics I know the best,
nobody is willing to actually grasp that metal. No one's
willing to do that. And so yeah, they whistle past
the graveyard to use another proverb.

Speaker 3 (02:33:39):
Yeah, and we caught up at it, you know.

Speaker 6 (02:33:42):
Yes, So even things like even things that look good,
like oh yeah, we shouldn't have compulsory retirement ages. And
I get it, you know, like people they reach sixty
five seventeen think I'm still fine. I want to keep
on working.

Speaker 5 (02:33:54):
I understand it.

Speaker 6 (02:33:56):
But you know what, there's a fifty year old behind
you who can't move up, and there's a twenty five
year old behind them who.

Speaker 5 (02:34:03):
Can't move up.

Speaker 6 (02:34:05):
And we go, oh, you know, why can't Why can't
my grandchildren afford a houses that get out the way?

Speaker 3 (02:34:13):
Yeah, you're not letting them have any other jobs that
pay for houses.

Speaker 6 (02:34:17):
But there's no simple you know, because it's also true
to say why should a seven year old have to
give up his job?

Speaker 5 (02:34:22):
Like that's true too, So.

Speaker 6 (02:34:24):
You know, these these are the these are the circumstances
we find out and coming back to the topic though,
that's where that's where communication.

Speaker 5 (02:34:34):
More likely.

Speaker 6 (02:34:35):
Proverbial communication is more useful because yeah, there's economics, so
you know, we can we can argue the end of
school economics versus canesianism till the cows come home.

Speaker 5 (02:34:51):
I can anyway.

Speaker 6 (02:34:51):
I enjoy that, but I don't think it moves us anywhere.
I think things that actually move are actually deeper conversations.

Speaker 3 (02:34:58):
Well, you make a good point, and Chris, I'd like
to ask you about do you find that when you
separate the proverbs or not you, but when the proverbs
themselves become separated from they're either historical, original context or
religious context, do you find that they get dismissed too

(02:35:22):
easily as anecdotes and nobody pays attention to them anymore.
Do you think there's risk of that with this?

Speaker 2 (02:35:29):
It's a good question. I don't have a good answer
for you right now. I will say that just opposing
them with Bible verses is eye opening, yeah, and challenging
to some people. I presented my look to a church group,
an adulted group, and it was a majority of white

(02:35:51):
church and all white the participants in the adulted groups.
And the response was.

Speaker 10 (02:36:00):
I had no idea, you know this, This is so.

Speaker 2 (02:36:04):
Overlooked among Western people, and that the person who made
that observation was like, I think we should send christ
to Africa. As much as I would love that, they know,
they already know this. It's the it's the people here,

(02:36:25):
I think in this country that might benefit the most
from developing subfamiliarity with some of these things. And I'm
told there is a homeschool curriculum available today that states
that slavery was a blessing in disguise, really because at

(02:36:48):
least they were Christian, right wow, right right?

Speaker 6 (02:36:52):
Yeah, well but hang on, I don't forget the Mohammad sorry,
the box of Muammed Ali.

Speaker 5 (02:37:00):
Right, yes, it came back from it came back from Africa.

Speaker 6 (02:37:04):
They were rumbling the jungle and all of that, and
he said, thank God, my great granddaddy got on that boat.

Speaker 5 (02:37:13):
So I'm just saying these things that they're not simple.

Speaker 2 (02:37:18):
Right, And the perception that cuts across all kinds of
demographics because people don't know this heritage.

Speaker 5 (02:37:27):
Yeah, people just.

Speaker 2 (02:37:30):
You know, well, I mean there's good they think about
Africism blank slate before Yeah, well.

Speaker 3 (02:37:39):
We need to remember I mean, I know that some
of my you know, some of my own students over
the years have have when we talk about like like
I said about Dan, there's there's there can sometimes be
surprised with some that, well, there's a perception perhaps it's
being taught in some places. I don't know that that

(02:38:00):
we went into Africa. White Europeans went into Africa and
conquered them and stole their people and enslaved them. Well
that was there were of course prisoners of wars from
battles and stuff that probably became slaves. I'm not disputing that,
but the larger, the larger slave trade was their own people,

(02:38:22):
enslaving their undesirables, getting rid of their criminals, getting rid
of people that weren't contributing to the society in the
way that they wanted them to, and then they were
selling them off.

Speaker 14 (02:38:32):
You know.

Speaker 3 (02:38:32):
So when you look at the complexity of just that
one issue and how it's not as cut and dry
as you know, white oppression or anything else that there's
a deeper, complex issue that gets dismissed in the conversation
because it's volatile and people don't want to talk about
it anyway. You know, you lose some of the that,

(02:38:55):
you lose some of the meaning. You don't really even
know what the meaning is anymore. Maybe some of this
can bring us back to that origin point, I think
to Father Chris to your point, I think, you know,
we could say that anything that happens, God's going to
make some good from it, even the worst things, God
will make good from it. I mean, that's the.

Speaker 5 (02:39:15):
Whole point of Australia. This place was settled.

Speaker 6 (02:39:24):
Yeah, it was civil servants that Britain wanted rid of,
and it was people Britain wanted rid of and done
pretty well with it.

Speaker 3 (02:39:31):
Like you know, well, I think, I think, I think
of I think I'm not. I'm not. I'm absolutely not
justifying the slave trade at all. But I will say
that God can make good of even something as reprehensible
as that. That's the whole point of a happy fault.
That's the whole point of God.

Speaker 6 (02:39:49):
Made the most precious thing out of out of the
the worst thing that could happen.

Speaker 5 (02:39:54):
Yes, God being murdered by his own creation.

Speaker 3 (02:39:57):
Yes, you know, yes, yes exactly.

Speaker 2 (02:40:00):
So yeah, it's super that really resonates for me. That
is central. I just want to raise a minor point.
It's it's important acknowledge the complexity of the slave trade.
But there were differences between you know, how I was
practice here in this country. It was not necessarily heritable

(02:40:21):
in Africa, right, like indefinite you know, forever there was manumission,
more really available.

Speaker 7 (02:40:29):
What what what?

Speaker 14 (02:40:29):
What?

Speaker 5 (02:40:30):
What went on in America was particularly appalling.

Speaker 10 (02:40:33):
Yeah yeah, yeah, the vast.

Speaker 2 (02:40:39):
Production, you know, industrial industrial.

Speaker 5 (02:40:44):
This touches me because you know, I'm British.

Speaker 6 (02:40:47):
And what what irritates me the most is people's reflection
on the British Empire.

Speaker 5 (02:40:54):
Always always evil, always bad. It's like I can't accept that.

Speaker 6 (02:40:58):
You know, I mean I only last year that Britain
only colonized Nigeria because Nigerians refused to stop sending slaves
to America. So that so, you know, imagine just the
cost in blood and treasure of Britain having to do that, right,
and and the and the unique thing about the British
Empire inspired by William Wilberforce who was a Christian Protestant

(02:41:20):
Christian and whose brother was the Bishop of Oxford, Samuel Wilberforce.
And the seminary I went to because I was an
Anglican priest. First, the semurary I went to was his palace.
He gave it to the church, and so it was
ended by the blood and treasure of British people. The
slave trade worldwide, you know, on the high seas, dealing

(02:41:40):
with Barbary pirates as well, and all the rest of it. So,
and that is something to be proud of. So it's
a mixed bag, right, Yeah, it's it's complicated, and that
complexity is a good thing to talk about, you know,
because the sort of taboo of oh, let's not try
to any risk hurting people's feelings means that these things

(02:42:04):
are not taught well or expressed or considered, which would
lead to deeper understanding and healing.

Speaker 4 (02:42:09):
Well, world history is complicated and we need to dive
in and discuss it more.

Speaker 3 (02:42:16):
Well, yeah, and it has to be discussed I think
in an open and honest way. Another flaw of human
nature is it's it's it's hyper emotional.

Speaker 4 (02:42:25):
You got to put on your big boy and big
girl pants. Yeah, I mean have a serious conversation.

Speaker 3 (02:42:30):
It does come down to having the maturity to be
able to discuss things you don't like without having to
emotionally respond and react to all of it. You know,
there is a certain objectivity, you know, I don't. I mean,
stoicism can be applied.

Speaker 6 (02:42:46):
See you, you said it at the start. That's the
heart of it, your own I see you. It's logs
and specs. It's the sort of you know, and the
great question to ask. I think when you look at
any history, good real is compared to what.

Speaker 14 (02:43:05):
You know?

Speaker 6 (02:43:05):
That's the question that gets lost. Oh this thing was terrible, okay,
compared to what in that time? You know, there's healing there.
You know, Western culture has not universally been brilliant, but
it's also about universally being bad.

Speaker 3 (02:43:25):
I can I can't disagree, be polite.

Speaker 10 (02:43:28):
I think he had a couple of other questions.

Speaker 3 (02:43:30):
Yeah, Brandon, let's go, let's do it. I know, he's
just he likes hearing us talk, though, don't you don't
let him kid you.

Speaker 14 (02:43:44):
So?

Speaker 9 (02:43:45):
Bits have kind of asked a similar question a couple
of minutes ago, but I wanted to ask it in
a different context. Based on the proverbs that you know,
either the ones you posted eight or published in your book, versus.

Speaker 10 (02:43:59):
Ones you haven't.

Speaker 9 (02:44:00):
What do you think is the most needed proverb for
our day and age, like, not specific to a generation,
but just people in general.

Speaker 2 (02:44:14):
That goes back to what I was asked about a
few moments ago about you know, we're all woven together
like one big mat from Metagainstar.

Speaker 10 (02:44:22):
You might have heard of the African concept of ubuntu.

Speaker 2 (02:44:26):
That just literally means humanity and the b NT part
means human and the ooh is an abstract prefix humanity.

Speaker 10 (02:44:36):
But it's it's it's richer and deeper and more complex
than that.

Speaker 2 (02:44:39):
It's just it's it's interdependence, you know.

Speaker 10 (02:44:43):
It's it's.

Speaker 2 (02:44:45):
I am because we are, we are because I am.
And doctor King put it slightly differently, I cannot be
what I am meant to be until you are what
you are meant to be. You you cannot be what
you are meant to be until I am what I
am meant to be. The Malagasy in Madagascar have a

(02:45:08):
different word for them to describe the concept. It's havana.
You hear the Hawaiian, the Polynesian.

Speaker 3 (02:45:18):
That's remarkable I did not know there was a connection there.
That's interesting.

Speaker 10 (02:45:22):
Well, again, I.

Speaker 2 (02:45:23):
Don't know there's an explicit connection, but there there was
band who settlement in Madagastar. Again, there are a mix
of people, and you know, the the idea of for Habana.
I had to Malagasy consultants and they're like that there's
a sacredness that if violated, is it's just taken very seriously,

(02:45:45):
the sickredness to all life.

Speaker 3 (02:45:49):
Agreed, you know, I I am. Do you think that's
the ultimate goal here then, is that these proverbs by
you know, your inspiration to write this book and and
share this wisdom, and with the added benefit of of
of finding parallel within the authority of scripture? Do you

(02:46:12):
find it? It's it's really about one discovering oneself that
they that these things teach us something about our own
nature that we can maybe even use in truly in
a zen sense, like a zen come to like spontaneously
awaken to a more developed understanding of things.

Speaker 2 (02:46:37):
Absolutely, absolutely, you know it's it's embedded. I'm taken together.
Embedded in the proverbs, uh is is a sense of
right relationship with yourself, with others and with God. Yeah,
the Proverbs addressed all those things in it with a

(02:46:57):
y in an African way. Yeah, there's a fundamental, you know,
the Golden Rule. You know, all the great faith traditions
have it. There's a poster that you sometimes see in
places of worship showing the Golden Rule in different faith traditions.
The Jewish one is that which is hateful to you,
do not do unto others. You know, that is the

(02:47:20):
whole of Toaurrah. The rest is commentary, ghost study.

Speaker 3 (02:47:24):
That's good.

Speaker 2 (02:47:27):
But so the next time you see that poster, look
for the African versions. Chances are you won't find them.
I don't know why they're overlooked, but I'm sure I
missed a few, given the vastness and complexity of Africa,
but I found seven African versions of the gold Rule.

Speaker 10 (02:47:48):
There's one from Medagascar. If you know it hurts yourself,
you know it hurts others.

Speaker 3 (02:47:56):
That's as simple and practical as it gets. Logical.

Speaker 2 (02:48:00):
Yes, yes, it's it's practical, but it's compassionate too.

Speaker 10 (02:48:04):
It teaches how how to see others.

Speaker 6 (02:48:06):
Right.

Speaker 2 (02:48:11):
And my one of my Malagasy UH consultants, Melody ramanan
Andre I love their names, Uh said.

Speaker 10 (02:48:22):
In her language.

Speaker 2 (02:48:24):
The word for her used in that product is pinch,
and this one is used with children. I don't know
about you, but I hear a mother's voice. Don't pinch somebody,
you know what I pinched. It's like, you know.

Speaker 10 (02:48:41):
So it's about it's about achieving right relationship.

Speaker 2 (02:48:46):
And I think they're there. They show compassion, wisdom, but
they're they're deeply practical.

Speaker 3 (02:48:55):
At the same time, and that that's I think their
real value is again getting back to something that's so
truly African. Is it's accessibility. It's it's it's a it's
malleability that it sort of works with any system. It
can it can find its way into any system and
be applicable because it is just so universal, from from

(02:49:18):
from its the core of its own nature. I think
that's its value to me. And in this way because
I mean looks as a pastor myself, Okay, when I'm
trying to teach Christian concepts, you know, the more complex
they get, the more I lose people because they're not relatable.

(02:49:40):
You know, if you're not if you're not going through
deep theology training. I mean, you know, these things are
just so ethereal and so outside of the range of
what most people understand that unless you're really into it.
And I mean, fortunately this audience is really into it,
so I can talk that way with them. But you know,
when I'm trying to talk to a client, for example,
who might be, you know, coming to Jesus for the

(02:50:02):
first time, this is not the way to go. You
have to keep it relatable and and high level theology
is not relatable. It's it's it's wonderful once you have
the intellectrial capacity to understand it, but you know, until
you're there, you're you're not going to get anything of it.
So I think what the real value is here is

(02:50:24):
that these are almost innately understood. You don't really need
any an explanation. It's there.

Speaker 4 (02:50:29):
It's all universal truth across cultures. I mean, we're all
having a human experience. Yeah, we all, we all with
the same answers. We all want to be loved, we
all want to love, we all want to know what
love is, right.

Speaker 2 (02:50:42):
Right, So right, it's just us human human experience. It
was not necessarily always recognized for you know, for Africans
and African Americans, so you know, it's just it's worth

(02:51:02):
worth knowing this heritage. It is, but it's it's eminently
relatable for anybody.

Speaker 3 (02:51:09):
I think it really is. I mean, I think anybody,
anybody from any culture could recognize or see themselves in
these things that you've shared with us. You know, and
you've only given us a little fraction of what's in
your book. You know, people are gonna have to Yeah,
people my cart now.

Speaker 4 (02:51:26):
I just haven't push Amazon.

Speaker 10 (02:51:29):
I think it's on a strong Amazon.

Speaker 3 (02:51:31):
We we did. We put the Amazon link in the
chat and uh and uh yeah. I think people need
to go pick up a copy and and study it
and and commit to it. You know, don't, like I said,
don't don't fall into dismissing it as anecdotal just because
you know it's they're sayings or whatever. I mean, there's
there's truth here. There's deep wisdom here that that expands

(02:51:55):
through the ages. You know, it's been, it's timeless, and
anybody anywhere can recognize it. I think that's its beauty.
And I mean when when when Brandon presented this show
to me, I didn't know what to expect, you know that.
I just think that this has been fantastic. Yeah, thank

(02:52:19):
you for being with us. I'd like to we got
a few minutes left. I'd like for you though, to
perhaps out of I mean kind of maybe already touched
on it, so let us know if we have. But uh,
is there any one specific thing or part of this
book that you find to be the most important thing,
the one message that if you could only take one

(02:52:40):
message and share it with this audience, what would you
want to would what would you want that to be?

Speaker 2 (02:52:47):
We're all related, we all belong. That's that's important too.

Speaker 3 (02:52:52):
Yeah, And.

Speaker 2 (02:52:56):
To violate the premise of your question, second thing would
be sank the sante uh view about learning from the
past in order to go forward.

Speaker 3 (02:53:09):
There's that history lesson.

Speaker 2 (02:53:12):
The symbol is a backward looking bird.

Speaker 3 (02:53:14):
Yeah, and see that that's that. That's again we get
the components to the solution of the world's problems, right, communication, understanding,
and and and wisdom of history, I think is one
of them. And of course love and compassion. You can't
do anything without that, you know. You Jamie was sharing

(02:53:36):
something on the network today about about fear, you know,
and I would say that, you know, a Christian cannot
live in fear because a Christian is called to live
in love and they're not compatible realities. You can't be
You can't be one and maintain the other. You have

(02:53:58):
to choose, right, So I would I would say that
they're they're mutually exclusive. You you you either you are
used to come to fear or used to come to love.
You can't do both and they can't co exist. And yeah,
it does, and you have to be willing to let it.
I think this world right now, it's it's running scared

(02:54:20):
and and and and being afraid is big business. Keeping
people in fear is big business hour news cycle.

Speaker 2 (02:54:29):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (02:54:29):
Yeah, And it doesn't matter which which one you is
your is your particular poisoner, the liberal or conservative media,
just it lives on fear and it makes big money, uh,
big profits off of at your expense. So I would
encourage people to you know, this is this is where
these proverbs and scripture, get the book and and and

(02:54:52):
learn how to overcome fear. Do you know any before
we end this show, Chris, anything about overcoming fear?

Speaker 10 (02:55:02):
I'm looking real quick. There was there was one from
Haiti about.

Speaker 2 (02:55:10):
It's comparable to love casting out fear. I'll do it
quick check. But I just want to share I have
delighted I am to have been invited Uh, it's been
a joy. I thank you so much for this opportunity.

Speaker 10 (02:55:26):
So thank you all.

Speaker 19 (02:55:31):
Had another question he probably did, Oh, real, love knows.

Speaker 3 (02:55:43):
Not danger there it is. That's exactly it.

Speaker 6 (02:55:49):
That is it.

Speaker 3 (02:55:50):
I mean, that's that's it. That's precisely that's beautiful, beautiful. Well, Chris,
any anyway that the audience can reach out to you?
Do you have any websites anything you'd want to share?
Here's your chance?

Speaker 2 (02:56:03):
Can I share my email?

Speaker 3 (02:56:05):
Please do?

Speaker 10 (02:56:06):
It's Christopher more how leaves off.

Speaker 2 (02:56:09):
The se At the end C h R I S
t O P A g R M O R E
h O U at gmail dot com. I will zoom
with your church or book group or like. Uh, because
i can talk about this for hours and I've enjoyed
the opportunity.

Speaker 3 (02:56:26):
I've and we've all enjoyed you. I can tell you
that that it's been a wonderful time. We thank you
for spending your evening with us and yeah, reaching out. Yeah,
we'd love to have you back on sometimes that would
be great. And uh, so thank you Chris, thank you Father, Chris,
thank you Brandon, thank you Jamie, and thanks to all
of you are moderators who have kept you safe through

(02:56:47):
the season. We appreciate each and every one of you.
It's been a fantastic season. And we'll be back on
July eighth with the first of two summer specials. That
is going to be one of our guests who's going
to be talk about trauma. She was originally booked earlier
in this season, but because of technical issues, that episode
never aired and so we had to push it off

(02:57:09):
to another date. So she's coming back. We're not gonna
miss it. That's gonna be July eighth for our next show.
I want everybody to have a fantastic, wonderful and safe,
blessed summer. Okay, be kind out there, because the world
has enough toxicity in it. Do your best to try
to understand another person's point of view. You don't have

(02:57:32):
to accept or agree with it. You just have to
understand it. That's it. That's all you have to do.
If we could teach our miserable politicians that one lesson,
we'd be okay. This world will move on in a
much better direction than it is right now. But it's
never too late. You have that power today. If I
could give any message to young people, it would be

(02:57:53):
that one take that to heart and do something with it, please,
you know, pick up the pick up the slack. Because
we're we're we're we're not doing too well right now. Anyway.
That's it, all right. I'll see you out in the summer,
and until then, I'll see you out there in the ether.
God bless everyone.

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