From Tragedy to Triumph with Jessica Taylor

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
And at.

Speaker 2 (00:42):
A good morning, good afternoon, good evening, whichever the case

(01:46):
may be. For all of you listening out there across
the crazy planet Earth, Welcome to the first summer special
of Vestiges after Dark and I am your host, Bishop

(02:06):
Brian Willette, coming to lie from the deep.

Speaker 3 (02:08):
Woods of Western Georgia.

Speaker 2 (02:10):
On this July eighth, twenty twenty five, tonight, we dive
into a new realm of neuropsychology slash neuro spirituality with
a brand new guess, Jessica Taylor, who's going to take

(02:34):
us on a journey into her own life where she
suffered traumatic brain injury which led to spiritual insight. This
is going to be a good one tonight on Vestiges
after Dark. Well, hello, everybody, welcome to a brand new

(03:53):
Vestiges after Dark Again. I'm your host, Bishop Brian will Lette,
with my co host Jamie Wolf.

Speaker 4 (04:00):
Hey everybody, it's.

Speaker 2 (04:01):
Been a long time coming, but this is the first
high definition broadcast we have ever brought to you. So
if you have not, if you have a high definition
device and you can set your resolution to ten eighty,
you can now watch us in high deaf because we
have finally fiber and right now we have the gigabyte

(04:24):
up and down plan, we can upgrade that to two,
although I was told that would be largely unnecessary. So
we are now streaming this at sixty frames per second
with a six thousand bit rate and ten eighty so
high DEF. I hope the picture sounds good. I hope

(04:45):
the sound sounds good. We've even improved the sound, and
we did some tests earlier this afternoon to make sure
everything worked because we wanted this show to be a
good one for you tonight. Since we have been on
hiatus since the end of the last winter spring season,
but we're going I had to be back. I kind
of missed the show when we go away.

Speaker 3 (05:03):
Although I do enjoy the much needed rest. I can
tell you that.

Speaker 2 (05:07):
It's it's always to not have to worry about getting
this show ready, because it's a lot of work. It
really is, particularly when we were having the internet issues
from before, but now we're beyond that.

Speaker 4 (05:19):
All noticed that the white spot on its hair is
getting bigger. It's because of the.

Speaker 2 (05:23):
Show, Yeah, that is. It's the show makes me turn great?
Does it really does? Although I think a lot of
that is because I sit out in the sun for
an hour a day or that it is.

Speaker 3 (05:33):
It could be, it could be all right.

Speaker 2 (05:36):
So we've got liturgical libation since it's the summer special. Here,
I have a bottle of one of my favorite logavill
and sixteen year old, one of my top favorites. It
is actually the first Islah I ever tried. This is
when I was like, okay, I'm done with the Highlands.

Speaker 4 (05:56):
See I'm a highland or a spaceied girl.

Speaker 2 (05:59):
So when I tasted this, it's like, Okay, I don't
need anything else again.

Speaker 3 (06:03):
This is where it's at.

Speaker 4 (06:06):
Oh yeah, this is smell that peat and that smoke.

Speaker 3 (06:08):
Oh there's a lot of peat.

Speaker 2 (06:09):
But it's also a very well, it's gonna be very saline.
You're gonna have a little bit of iodine in this one.
It's very much what ocean influences this.

Speaker 5 (06:18):
Well.

Speaker 4 (06:18):
The first description for the palate is pungent and potent.
This is the great I lavel.

Speaker 2 (06:27):
This is the one that defines it in my opinion.
There's people that say it's hard big, people say it's
the fud. It's for me, it's legable.

Speaker 4 (06:35):
I do like hard big.

Speaker 2 (06:38):
See, I just taste the ocean. It's just pure ocean
to me. What do you think people either love it
or they hate it?

Speaker 4 (06:49):
Well, you don't mean, I'm my palette's still developing. But
taste the salt, it's very Yeah, I do taste the salt.
It is very peaty, which I have very my palate
has a problem with. But I can see where you
taste the ocean.

Speaker 2 (07:02):
Yeah, that's the most I would say. It's the one
that captures the ocean more.

Speaker 4 (07:06):
Than something that could grow on me. But I wouldn't
be able to have more than a draft.

Speaker 2 (07:11):
Well, we've never featured it on this show before, so
I thought, it's thank you for well I opened. I
opened it before you gave me my gift. So it
was like, okay, well I got to get through this
now because I can only have so many bottles of
whiskey open. You know, it starts to get ir rated
and they don't taste as good after a while. And
I don't drink as much whiskey as I particularly in

(07:31):
the summer, I drink a lot more.

Speaker 4 (07:33):
I switch over to rum believe or not. I drink
a lot of guinness in the summer.

Speaker 3 (07:38):
Yeah, I can see that.

Speaker 4 (07:40):
It's just so crisp and fresh for me.

Speaker 3 (07:42):
I love a good guinness.

Speaker 4 (07:43):
Yeah, all down a pint and a heartbeat.

Speaker 2 (07:45):
Nothing's wrong with that. Nothing's wrong with that. Thank you, Yeah,
enjoy it. It's I just like that, that saline taste.
So before we get started here, let me tell you
a little bit of the story about this internet here,
because you wouldn't believe this. They they had to lay
a new line because when we're in our current esp
that we've been using, remember how they had their line

(08:07):
cut by this company when they laid the fiber line. Well,
when they laid the new line to restore the one
that this company, the fiber company cut, they ended up
cutting the previous ISP's line and and so that that

(08:28):
what that what that what that ended up doing is
they had to lay a new fiber line because they
just keep cutting each other's lines. And so we have
now a temporary line in there. They're going to put
a third line in and they're gonna put that one
in a pipe so it can't be cut again, which
they should have.

Speaker 3 (08:47):
Done in the first place.

Speaker 2 (08:48):
But that's all going to happen on Friday, from what
I understand, and hopefully that will be behind us.

Speaker 3 (08:53):
But I mean, this has been such.

Speaker 2 (08:55):
A a a challenge, you know, having to deal with
with this, But I think we're finally where we need
to be. We're streaming in high definition, including the sound
is high definition, and we are our connectivity issues should
be a thing of the past. We don't have any
buffering there is there. The ping rate is as low

(09:17):
as it possibly can go, and everything's been working well.
We've had the fiber in here for a few days
now and it's been solid. And I'll tell you, it
is so much easier to work with these large video
files that I have to work with because I can
just upload them in a snap of the finger. What
used to take hours before, Now it's just like thirty seconds.

Speaker 3 (09:40):
Honestly, I'm not even kidding. I'm not even kidding.

Speaker 2 (09:42):
It's not much faster, and the bandwidth is not an
issue now. You know, we don't have anything turned off.
I think Tracy's even watching this show right now on
our big screen TV upstairs. And you know, we weren't able,
weren't able to do that before because.

Speaker 4 (10:00):
You had to yell and make sure everybody was awful.

Speaker 2 (10:02):
Yep, everything had to be shut down to stream this
show on the old ISP.

Speaker 3 (10:09):
So this one's just been fantastic.

Speaker 2 (10:10):
So you guys let me know though, if you find
that there is buffering, please let me know, because there's
things I can change, Like I'm pushing it to the
limit tonight. I'm doing high death okay. And I'm also
doing it at the medium plan. That's the one gigabyte
up and down plan. I can change that to two
gigabytes up and down and that would completely eradicate I

(10:31):
think any bandwidth issues, if there are any, but I
don't think you're gonna have any issues. But you guys
tell me if you see buffering, let me know. If
there's any issues, let me know. Right now, YouTube's reporting
a solid, solid stream and I think it's going to continue.
All the tests this week, this today, this afternoon, we
were perfect.

Speaker 3 (10:51):
There were no issues. Okay.

Speaker 2 (10:53):
Joining us from the great country of Australia, we have
Father Chris Yates. How you doing tonight, Father.

Speaker 6 (11:01):
I'm doing well. I come to you with ten percent
added tariffs. We're having to pay an extra ten percent
to have me on the show. That's the that's the
way tariffs work.

Speaker 2 (11:13):
In case Americans look out, because trampled up at two
hundred percent.

Speaker 3 (11:17):
If you you know, if you if you brag about it.

Speaker 4 (11:19):
Look, they're telling me that I had to wait a
week because of tariffs. They need parts, so well, you know,
maybe we should start bringing some manufacturing back to us.

Speaker 6 (11:33):
Wait a week melting in my house, I pretty much
cost you an extra bottle of lagavol And every time
on the show, now see your tariffs.

Speaker 4 (11:40):
Telling you you know it's I'm going to really enjoy this, then.

Speaker 3 (11:43):
Better enjoy it. That's ridiculous.

Speaker 6 (11:45):
By the way, I do think that is the best
whiskey in the world. I don't think there's anything better.
I've drank a lot of different whiskeys, but I don't
think there's anything better.

Speaker 2 (11:55):
I tend to I think it is my top favorite.
I mean, I enjoy out of whiskey, and there's really
I've never met a single malt that I didn't like.

Speaker 3 (12:06):
But as far.

Speaker 2 (12:07):
As like, if I had to pick one, like only
one that I could ever drink, Like, that's it. That's
the only thing you can drink for the rest of
your life. It would be loggable in sixteen I think, well,
actually would be like it would be it would be
loggable in thirty seven, but I mean that would be
probably hard.

Speaker 4 (12:21):
Yeah, yeah, I have tried that. I believe it was
with you.

Speaker 3 (12:25):
Yeah, that was two. That was two hundred and fifty
dollars a dram.

Speaker 4 (12:29):
You know what, if you're gonna you're gonna experiment a rip.

Speaker 3 (12:35):
It was.

Speaker 2 (12:35):
It's a good one. But yeah, to get a bottle.
So it's a I think it's about four four thousand
dollars a bottle if you're lucky to score one.

Speaker 4 (12:41):
Yeah, I'm not doing that.

Speaker 2 (12:42):
Yeah, it's a it's a little it's a little high.
It's a little high. Uh, Brandon's joining us from Tennessee.
How you doing, Brandon? I know I heard you had
a question here.

Speaker 7 (12:50):
Yeah, apparently you just buffered for about five or six
seconds right there, but only through the YouTube feed.

Speaker 2 (12:57):
Only through YouTube. That's interesting, okay, so but it's not like.

Speaker 7 (13:03):
Yeah, no on on zoom, it's perfect on YouTube.

Speaker 3 (13:07):
Are you saying buffering too?

Speaker 6 (13:09):
I did?

Speaker 8 (13:10):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (13:10):
Okay, you are seeing buffering on YouTube on YouTube, on
YouTube only on YouTube. Okay, that's interesting all right, because
now oh yeah, yeah, YouTube is not receiving enough video.
I am seeing that now. Yeah, well that's not.

Speaker 4 (13:26):
Going to be a US thing.

Speaker 7 (13:28):
So do you might want to get like the two
gigabytes upload and download YouTube.

Speaker 2 (13:36):
It says, okay, I'm getting an error message, and it
says YouTube is not receiving enough video to maintain smooth streaming.
As such, the viewers will experience buffering, not receiving enough video.
I wonder what that means. I don't know what that means.
I've never seen that. Now it's saying no data.

Speaker 4 (13:58):
I've done this before.

Speaker 6 (14:02):
It is settings issue.

Speaker 2 (14:04):
It's got to be a settings issue with this new internet.
So let me see what I can change. I don't
think the problem is. I don't think there's a coming
for you now it is. There's not a lot that
I can change while we're live. I can't change anything
on video output. I can Oh, the bit rate was

(14:25):
brought down. Bitrate was brought down to twenty four to sixty.
I did not change that. Let me put it back up.
I wonder if that's what's causing it.

Speaker 4 (14:37):
It usually was a bitrate problem, I think when we
were Let's.

Speaker 3 (14:40):
Try this again.

Speaker 2 (14:40):
So I'm gonna I'm gonna see if changing that helps.

Speaker 4 (14:46):
Fiers crossed.

Speaker 2 (14:58):
Okay, So if anybody can tell me, so you guys
are saying, just so I'm clear on this We're not
seeing any issues on Instagram, Facebook.

Speaker 3 (15:11):
It's just YouTube.

Speaker 6 (15:17):
I'm only watching YouTube, so YouTube's backup, YouTube, back up.
They's been fine for the past a little while.

Speaker 3 (15:23):
Yeah, okay, I mean I'm still getting an error. Open way.

Speaker 2 (15:27):
Let me see open widget. It says it doesn't really
tell me anything. It just says it's a poor stream status.
It's now, this is definitely settings issue.

Speaker 3 (15:37):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (15:37):
So now it's saying no data, so then there's probably
buffering right now. You guys sing buffering or you guys seing.

Speaker 7 (15:45):
So on Facebook it says you were you were live
and it was about twenty three minutes before it stopped.
So it stopped, yes, yeah, twenty two minutes and nine seconds.

Speaker 3 (16:05):
That's interesting. Yeah, it did. It cut off the It
cut off the feed on Facebook.

Speaker 7 (16:11):
I guess I couldn't handled all that speed.

Speaker 4 (16:14):
It got ran over.

Speaker 3 (16:16):
I mean, we were having no issues this afternoon. You
were there, Brandon.

Speaker 7 (16:19):
Yeah, we're fine.

Speaker 3 (16:22):
Now it says the stream is healthy again.

Speaker 4 (16:26):
Let's keep an eye on it.

Speaker 6 (16:27):
You'se been fine the whole time.

Speaker 3 (16:29):
You've just been talking Tracy.

Speaker 2 (16:30):
If you couldn't, you know, I see Tracy's telling me
that that Facebook's down, Tracy, if you wouldn't mind just
putting the link to the YouTube page on Facebook with
a message. Instagram seems okay as far as I can tell,
but I went ahead and I for some reason the

(16:50):
bitrate UH has had been dropped to lower than what
we were using before, and I did not make that change.

Speaker 3 (16:58):
It looks like it did that self.

Speaker 2 (17:01):
So there's definitely some setting here that it does not like,
or that one.

Speaker 3 (17:06):
Of these platforms does not like.

Speaker 2 (17:09):
And I think what we're going to have to do
is kind of play around with it a bit over
the next couple of shows until we get one that
seems to be the right thing. I mean, that's bizarre.
I don't understand, but right now showing it's a healthy
stream on YouTube at least, but I can't bring back
Facebook without stopping the show and starting it up again,

(17:33):
which I'd like to avoid doing. So Tracy will put
a link up there for YouTube people. And I kind
of expected, you know, to be fair, I'm not entirely
surprised by this. I kind of expected there to be
some issue tonight because of having to update the settings

(17:55):
that we have to work with this new speed, and
I was trying to bring the best possible experience by
testing it out and testing its limits. When the test
this afternoon worked out fine, we were like, okay, this
is okay. Now let's see it's no data again. I'm
going to give you, guys, I'm gonna okay, here's what
we're going to do.

Speaker 3 (18:14):
Here's what we're going to do.

Speaker 2 (18:16):
I'm going to give you guys the choice you guys
tell me in the in the chat. Okay, we can
keep dealing with this through the rest of the show,
or I can stop the show now and restart it
with a brand new page. It'll be a new link,
and we can start it with new settings. What do

(18:37):
you guys want to do? Any any any, any any
feedback on that, because I have a feeling that this
is going to keep happening on YouTube. We're going to
have buffering all night if we don't stop it.

Speaker 4 (18:52):
But to get it squared away before the guest comes on.

Speaker 7 (18:57):
If we're going to the first hour segment, would be
the best time so that the guests can have the
steady stream.

Speaker 2 (19:02):
Okay, So what I'm going to do while we're on
here right now, okay, is let me go ahead and
put in a new Okay, let me go ahead and
create a new page while we're while we're doing this
right now with you guys. This will not be the
show that gets saved to the podcast, but it will be.

(19:36):
It will be a new page.

Speaker 9 (19:37):
It's been.

Speaker 6 (19:37):
It's been pretty steady ever since you changed a bit, right.

Speaker 3 (19:42):
Has it.

Speaker 2 (19:42):
I've been still seeing the I've been still seeing a
buffering warning though.

Speaker 6 (19:49):
The like the you know, the YouTube stream has been
I've been watching it the whole time. It's been fine,
has it?

Speaker 3 (19:55):
Okay?

Speaker 2 (19:55):
Because it's like eight fourteen, eight eight fifteen, eight sixteen.
It seems like every a minute says there's no data.

Speaker 6 (20:02):
Anything after eight seventeen, though.

Speaker 3 (20:04):
Every eight seventeen has been good. Yeah, everything after eight seven.

Speaker 6 (20:07):
Well, I think you fixed it.

Speaker 3 (20:09):
Maybe maybe it was that I don't know how that changed.

Speaker 4 (20:12):
Roll the dice.

Speaker 3 (20:13):
All right, Well do you want to you want to
keep going?

Speaker 4 (20:15):
Think the guests said she wanted to move forward someone
of their chats.

Speaker 7 (20:18):
We'll keep going.

Speaker 3 (20:19):
Ok So keep going on this on this on this feed.

Speaker 4 (20:22):
Okay, your fingers and your toes, everybody.

Speaker 3 (20:24):
All right?

Speaker 2 (20:25):
Well, well uh all right, I'll just I'll just hold
you off here. Hopefully there won't be any more issues.
It didn't look like it disconnected at least, and this
streaming service is pretty good about reconnecting without losing the page.
It's just going to be a buffering issue. But I
know what I can do to make changes. It's not

(20:46):
the internet speed right now. It's a settings issue, for sure. Absolutely,
it's a settings issue, something that all these different platforms
do not like. And clearly Facebook didn't like it at all,
So we might have to maybe even I mean, maybe
it doesn't like hide.

Speaker 3 (21:00):
I don't know, maybe we need to go back to
the seven twenty. I don't know.

Speaker 2 (21:03):
All right, Well, let's get started here tonight with questions
from the ether. What's our first one, Brandon?

Speaker 7 (21:10):
So the first question, have you ever investigated a miracle
like the Virgin Mary statue, crying or stigmata, et cetera.

Speaker 4 (21:19):
Yes, actually you've got your own little miracle in the chapel,
don't you.

Speaker 3 (21:23):
Not a Virgin Mary one.

Speaker 2 (21:25):
But we do have we do have a statue that
bleeds or did bleed.

Speaker 3 (21:30):
We have a bleeding statue. It's a very interesting one.

Speaker 2 (21:33):
It's a statue of Saint Jude, just a very simple,
basic plastic Saint Jude statue that you would get for
just like a few dollars at at a Catholic store,
and it was a very I don't I don't even
remember where we got I think was my grandmother that

(21:54):
gave it to my father and he gave it to me,
and it's been.

Speaker 3 (21:58):
With me.

Speaker 2 (22:00):
My monastery days. Honestly, when I was in seminary monastery,
I had it with me and I never really did anything,
you know, just a patron saint carried it around, kept
it with the other religious paraphernalia that I have.

Speaker 3 (22:16):
And when we were.

Speaker 2 (22:20):
Oh gosh, this would have been about more than ten
years ago, when I had set up one of my
home chapels, one of the early home chapels that were
completely closed to everyone. It was just it was just
a place that I would offer mass a little corner
of the home that we had had a much smaller
home in those days, and it was just a little

(22:40):
corner of that my office that had a little alcove,
and I put the altar in there and that's where
we had mass, my wife Levi and I and well,
one day I went down to get the chapel ready
it was like an advent season and there was a

(23:05):
the Saint Jude statue had a red, viscous liquid dripping
from it, and I thought, what on earth is this,
And so I took a closer look at it, And
this is the really interesting thing about it, is that
it was this gouge looking mark in the head of

(23:27):
Saint Jude, and it was dripping down all the way
from the head down. And for those who know about
the Apostles, Saint Jude was martyred by an axe to
the head, and so it's a very interesting thing that

(23:48):
this particular statue would bleed from the would bleed from
the area that the Apostle himself was said to have
been killed from. So quite a remarkable, I would say,

(24:11):
quite a remarkable manifestation. It bled for quite some time.
It hasn't bled in a while, but now it's in
a glass case where it's left alone. We have another
one of a plastic statue of Jesus that's bleeding from
the heart. It's a sacred heart a statue, and it bleeds.
It bled from the heart. These were some interesting things

(24:32):
that happened here with us.

Speaker 3 (24:34):
Now.

Speaker 2 (24:36):
When I was a seminary and I used to work
with some of the nuns at my parish. They had
a convent that would serve It was just a convent
of two nuns and they would serve the parish with
some of the extra activities that were required, like the
children education programs, adult education programs. And one of the

(24:58):
things they produced me to I did not know they
did this. Nobody knew they did this. This is something
that they shared with me because I was kind of
an insider by this point and they trusted me, and
they said they invited me over for tea.

Speaker 3 (25:13):
Uh yeah, it was one of the cool kids.

Speaker 2 (25:15):
They invited me over for tea, and I sat down
with them and and they said, hey, you know, we
would like your opinion on something, and I said okay,
And so they got me a book that was It
was this giant book of all these files, and in

(25:37):
each one of them was a case that they were
working where people in the local diocese were reporting some
kind of apparition or spiritual manifestation or something, and usually

(25:57):
an apparition of the Virgin Mary, and that they would
be the ones that the diocese would call on to
go and investigate it. And they would apparently do this
for I guess as the precursor part for the bishop,
and then the bishop would then take that to the
Vatican if they wanted to take it further and get

(26:19):
it recognized as a more formal thing.

Speaker 4 (26:23):
Paranormal investigations is nothing new.

Speaker 2 (26:26):
No, And this is the good side of paranormal you know.
This is not the demon side. This is like the
good side, right, This is the side that we should
be more focused on than the demons and all that nonsense.
But anyway, yeah, so I started to work with them
on these cases, you know. And one of the ones
that they shared with me and the one that they
wanted my opinion on, was the one that fascinated me

(26:46):
the most.

Speaker 3 (26:47):
They had a lady.

Speaker 2 (26:48):
There was a lady in one of our one of
the parishes in our diocese, Okay, she had she went
to Mass every day, and one day, while she was
sitting in the pew, the Virgin Mary appeared to her.

Speaker 10 (27:08):
And.

Speaker 2 (27:09):
From that day forward, every time she went to Mass,
the Virgin Mary would be there, would come in and
and sit in some proximity to her, usually in the
pew in front of her. And so now you got
to keep in mind here, this was the nineties, okay,

(27:33):
the earlier, the earlier nineties, and there was no face,
There was no um uh, what's what's the photoshop? There
was no photoshop. You didn't have ai uh, you didn't
have the kinds of toys that we have today to
fake things.

Speaker 4 (27:52):
You're still running on beepers and pagers too.

Speaker 3 (27:55):
We were, in fact I had one at that point,
I had it. Still we didn't. I didn't even I
don't think I had a cell phone yet. And so.

Speaker 2 (28:05):
The nun said, this is what we want you to do.
We want you to take a camera, and they had
her take a polaroid so that it absolutely could not
be faked, right, because a polaroid is self developing. Okay,
had her take a polaroid, and they said, she says,

(28:26):
every time you see the Virgin Mary, take a picture, okay,
And so this woman did. She did this for years,
for years, pictures of every mass you attended, which was
a daily occurrence. She went to mass every day, and
every day she came home with a picture of the

(28:49):
Virgin Mary. And the pictures were absolutely astonishing. And this
is the things that stood out to me that this
was the part that kind of, I guess left me
sort of in awe. What you see in these pictures
is the church her parish, Okay, and this parish I

(29:10):
went to. I mean I attended at some point all
of the parishes in my diocese. I was a seminarian
for them.

Speaker 3 (29:17):
I made it my I.

Speaker 2 (29:21):
Made it a strong effort to get to know everybody
in the diocese in it's a big diocese, and it's
Diocese of Palm Beach. It's a big one. And so
I've been to this church, and I knew this church.
I knew the priest that served the church. And you
see pictures, and you can see pictures of the mask
going on or the other parishioners, and then you'll see

(29:43):
like the Virgin Mary in the distance, and then another
picture shall be closer, and another picture should be in
the pew in front of her, and there was this one.
Usually it's always from the back, Okay. It was always
a luminous kind of image almost it almost would wash
out sometimes the rest of the picture, where it was
almost like as if you were shining a light at

(30:03):
the lens and it would kind of wash it out
in some kind of funny way. But one of the
things that really got me is that in one at
one mass, the Virgin Mary sat next to her or
stood next so she never really sat down, She just
stood there, stood next to her. And so when she

(30:24):
took the picture, she took the picture from the side,
and the face was all white, pure light with you
could see the features of a chin, but it was
just pure white light emanating out and just the hint
of blue around around the veil. Wow, the most remarkable

(30:49):
things I've ever seen. These are pictures you will never see.
They will never be published, they will never be shared
with the public. If anything, they have probably been locked
away somewhere or worse to destroyed. Both of those nuns
are now deceased. They were up there in years even
back then, and there these were the property of the

(31:09):
church at this point because this was done as part
of the investigation, and they had concluded that we together,
I guess you could say I was kind of an
informal part of their little their little investigation group. We
had concluded that there was no question that this was
an authentic thing, because on one occasion, one of the

(31:31):
nuns went with her to mass and sat with her
and there was nobody there, and she took the polaroid,
and the polaroid developed with the Virgin Mary sitting right
next to her, right where she said she was. And
how do you think that? How do you fake that
in real time? This was a polaroid camera.

Speaker 3 (31:48):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (31:49):
One of the nuns who was there as kind of
more of a devil's advocate. I mean, their job is
really to prove it false, the debunk it, and she
was there to basically make sure there was nothing strange
going on.

Speaker 3 (32:04):
It was a.

Speaker 2 (32:04):
Normal mass, a normal lady, she says, The Virgin Mary
just came in. She takes a picture. She said, she's
sitting back, she's sitting next to me, takes a picture.
Sure enough, as the pictures develop, there is the Virgin Mary.
And then and none said you could see nothing.

Speaker 3 (32:21):
There was no one sitting next to us.

Speaker 4 (32:22):
Did y'all interview? Here's the cop coming out. Did y'all
in her? Do any of the other parishioners to see
if they saw any.

Speaker 2 (32:27):
No one ever saw anything. Only she ever saw anything.
But what was what was profound is the fact that
those pictures always had her in them. And we're talking
like hundreds, because like I said, she went every every
day and this we had year's worth of these.

Speaker 3 (32:43):
So there was like there was like nine hundred picture.

Speaker 4 (32:47):
Wonder how many other of these of these miracles have
happened all over the world and that will never.

Speaker 2 (32:51):
Never Well, they're just that and partly because the positive
paranormal ones don't get noticed.

Speaker 3 (32:58):
It's the demonic ones every but he cares about They.

Speaker 2 (33:01):
Don't care about the the the angels and the and
the saints.

Speaker 6 (33:04):
Right, So I was gonna say this, this is far less.
You know, if you enter the Eastern Orthodox world, this
is you know, these things are much more matter of fact,
mer streaming icons. I mean, I've been in the presence
of those, have been blessed with them, with the chrison
that comes from it, you know, I kind of I

(33:27):
like the fact that they sort of just treat it
as well, this is this is just a normal part
of faith, that these miracles just happen. Yeah, you know,
it is. It is more. The Western approach is more.
I don't think it's better or worse. By the way,
I think that the Western faith really doesn't want people

(33:48):
to believe on the basis of the miraculous. You know
it we're supposed to be. We don't in this sense.
We're all Saint Thomas, but we're being encouraged not to
be sint Thomas, you know, would be encouraged to believe
without the need to rely on you know, metaphysical phenomenon
that interact with the physical world, which is what we're

(34:09):
talking about, right. So, so I don't think either's right
or wrong by the way I see. I see reasons
behind both, you know, and on a practical level, you know,
if the church was advertising, oh this, you know, the
blessed vision Mary appears next to this woman in this church,
I mean, can you imagine the millions of people that
would be flocking to that place, and it would be

(34:30):
very disruptive.

Speaker 2 (34:31):
And that's why.

Speaker 3 (34:34):
It was there was never.

Speaker 6 (34:37):
If it's centered on on icons that are on.

Speaker 2 (34:42):
A fall, you're kind of breaking up their father, I
can't tell it. If it's Brendan, you're still here, yeah, okay,
so it's not my connection. It's something at your own father.

Speaker 4 (34:58):
It's having a new connections. He's got a new laptop
to it.

Speaker 2 (35:03):
Like you kind of broke up there for about thirty seconds.
We did not catch the last thirty seconds of what
you said. Sorry, I'm by okay, what what did what
would would you say? You're saying something about Okay, you
were talking about how people were you know, the West
has a different approach to me. Okay, can you still

(35:25):
hear can you hear me? I think we lose them
this one. It's gonna be one of those nights.

Speaker 6 (35:31):
I can hear you.

Speaker 3 (35:33):
Yes, we can hear. Well. No, no, you're freezing up again. Father,
you're freezing up again?

Speaker 7 (35:46):
Are you trying it off and on again?

Speaker 4 (35:48):
I'll try something control all delete?

Speaker 2 (35:53):
Well, well, father Chris gets that work? Yeah, yeah, you
are mad, You're back. But can you hear us?

Speaker 3 (36:02):
I don't think you can. Okay, you can?

Speaker 2 (36:03):
Okay, all right, I think well let's try it. So
we lost like the last thirty seconds of what you said,
we lost them?

Speaker 3 (36:14):
Here he goes. Okay, so yeah, question number two, let's
just get on.

Speaker 7 (36:18):
Actually I have a question about your answer to that question. Okay, yeah, sure,
because like I've Protestant twenty three years, I've never heard
of that happening. It like the esoteric part of me
is kind of coming out. Is it would it be
the archetype that manifests as mother or as the Virgin Mary?

(36:39):
Is that what's going on?

Speaker 2 (36:41):
I mean, my my position on it would be that
anything that manifests in this world does so through the
archetype that it represents, So that includes us as well
as spiritual things or things that are more of an
ethereal nature. So this is why, like we've talked about,
how you have people that will sometimes represent heroes, right,

(37:04):
they're just naturally heroes, they're born to be heroes, They're
just heroic people. This is an archetype that is manifesting them.
They are a manifestation of it. And then you have
really evil people or what we would classify as evil people, sociopaths, whatnot.
And this is like the shadow archetype manifesting them or

(37:27):
manifesting through them. And so the Virgin Mary is, no
question about it, an archetype of the Great Mother. And
so it would stand to reason that when that particular
individual wishes to interact with us, that she would do

(37:50):
so again through the archetype that she represents. And so yes,
I would say that it is a perfectly reasonable assessment
to say that that's what is that's how it is happening.
But that is not to diminish it because I think
sometimes people think, oh, well it's just an archetype. No,

(38:13):
just an archetype I mean, archetype is like the most
profound thing that you could possibly imagine. The fact that
archetypes can even do these kinds of things is remarkable,
and I would say that all of reality is here
because of the archetypes that manifest these things. They are
the building blocks of creation. And so, you know, the
Virgin Mother would manifest through the Great Mother archetype, which

(38:38):
is much older than any concepts that we could have
of the Blessed Virgin Mary, because the Blessed Virgin Mary
is only a two thousand well only a two thousand
year old concept, right, a two thousand year old figure, okay,
a person that's only we've only known about for two
thousand years, okay, Whereas the Great Mother goes back before

(39:03):
recorded time, and so it is perfectly reasonable to suggest
that it is the same archetype. But it's manifesting all
of these different representatives, of which the Virgin Mary is one.

Speaker 7 (39:20):
That is fascinating. And is it only select few people
that are chosen to investigate these events?

Speaker 2 (39:30):
Yeah, I mean they're not going to just like take
somebody that wants to do it. It's not going to
be like somebody contacts the bishop and says hey, I'd
like to investigate, you know, miracles for you. They will
probably just say oh, that's nice, and that you'll never
hear from them again. Now they keep it pretty much
close within. Yeah, it's more for discussion behind the cloister.

(39:54):
It's why the nuns were involved in this, because it's
pretty much reserved for the religious as part of their
their duties to work these kinds of cases. If there's
trust there, which there usually is.

Speaker 4 (40:08):
Tell you that if somebody reached out to us, though,
I jump all over it. I always to investigate something cool.
I mean good for a change, not bad.

Speaker 3 (40:16):
And see, that's the funny thing that I get.

Speaker 4 (40:17):
A resolution needed, you know.

Speaker 3 (40:19):
Just that's the funny thing.

Speaker 2 (40:21):
I can't think of any time where we've ever had
somebody contact us to say I'm having I'm seeing the
Virgin Mother, I'm seeing angels. No one ever does that.
It's always demons. It's always it's the thing they care about,
you know. And that's what's on TV right, It's only demons,
you know.

Speaker 3 (40:38):
So it was nice.

Speaker 2 (40:39):
Wouldn't be nice to have a travel channel paranormal ghost
adventure show that just investigates.

Speaker 4 (40:45):
Careful, careful angels some little stealid idea. In about two years,
we'll be sitting there watching it, going, hey, that looks familiar.

Speaker 3 (40:53):
I don't think anyone. I don't. I don't think anybody would.

Speaker 4 (40:56):
I don't think.

Speaker 3 (40:58):
Yeah, streaming not interesting enough for that. I guess I
don't know. So, yeah, there you go, Brandon.

Speaker 7 (41:06):
I want a grass. Did you want to add to that?

Speaker 6 (41:09):
I was just gonna say, you'd have to add a
tragic angle if you wanted anyone in the in the mainstream.
You will even be TV channels in two years time.
Who knows. I mean, I think it's rapidly being replaced
and probably not a bad thing.

Speaker 2 (41:23):
Probably not. Yeah, it's going out the window. I don't
I really, I'm not even sure they'll be more ghost adventures.
It will be interesting to see if there will be.

Speaker 6 (41:32):
Well, why would you pay a team to go and
do things when people will do it for free?

Speaker 2 (41:37):
Well that's true, Yeah, that's true. No shortage of people
that want to do that neither. You know, they're fascinated
by it. All right, what's our next question?

Speaker 7 (41:47):
So our next question is we often talk about aggregate structures.
Where could I study more about them?

Speaker 2 (41:55):
Okay, so that is a esoteric mystical uh, I guess
you could say tenant of esoteric mysticism. Let's just put
it that way. That finds its origins in Buddhism. So
when we talk about the aggregate structure, it is a
continued thought on the five.

Speaker 3 (42:17):
Aggregates of Buddhism.

Speaker 2 (42:19):
But if you want to really learn more about how
these things play out as the fundamental properties of of
the phenomenal universe, how we perceive things, how these things
constitute what is known as the maya, the illusion of
of of self, all that all that good stuff, all
that good Eastern philosophical stuff. Then you know, you could

(42:42):
just pick up some of the the Buddhist sutras, the
Heart Suture, the Diamond Sutra, the Kanda sami Uta, the
damasung Gani. These are all excellent Buddhist texts that with
the subject of aggregates, particularly the five aggregates, the five

(43:04):
primary aggregates. Essentially, in Buddhism, the aggregates are the best
way to understand it is that nothing exists independent of
anything else. Okay, So like, for example, if I get
a bowl point pen and I show it to you,
and I say, what is this you're gonna say, oh,
that's a pen. So then yes, So then let's say

(43:26):
I unscrew, I take the cap off, what is it?

Speaker 3 (43:29):
It's a pen? Now I unscrewed the little tip. What
is it? You know?

Speaker 2 (43:34):
Then I take the little spring out, then I take
the ink cartridge out. At what point is it no
longer a pen? All of these things are the aggregates
that make the pen functionally useful. And it only means
something when it functions as what it is. Because if

(43:56):
I were to take all those little parts, you might say, oh,
what those are?

Speaker 3 (44:01):
Those are that's a ballpoint pen. So someone took it apart.

Speaker 6 (44:03):
But what if I Thomas Aquinas takes that further, because
you're right, because because I mean, all of those things
are described. But then he says he actually used pencil,
not pen because obviously didn't. But he asked the next question,
which which is, in fact, you know, the Christian question,

(44:27):
what makes it a good pencil? So you have you know,
what is it that makes something something? And then what
makes it a good something? And the analogy was that
you know, a good pencil is a good pencil if
it will write, you know, and and the and the
you know, the inference being that human being is what
makes a good human being. A good human being is

(44:48):
one who does what God wants them to do. You know,
that's the sort of basic logic.

Speaker 3 (44:54):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (44:55):
So in along those lines, yes, he takes it to
Aquinas takes this concept to a moral direction. Buddhism Uh,
less about morality with this, more about the nature of reality.
And and so what I was saying is, if you
were to take all those pieces, we might be al
to identify them and say, oh, that's that was a pen.

(45:15):
Someone took it apart. The only reason we can make
that assessment is because we know what a pen is
supposed to look like when it's whole, when all the
parts are functionally useful. But if you were to take
that pen and share it with some that I forget
the name of it, that tribe that's outside of India,
I have had no contact with the outside world. I'll

(45:36):
kill you if you come on the island there's I
forget the name of him, but there's a there's an
island outside of right you know what I'm talking. I
can never remember what the tribe is or the name
of the island, but it's right outside of India not.

Speaker 6 (45:47):
Long ago, an American evangelic tribe.

Speaker 3 (45:53):
They'll kill you. They'll kill you.

Speaker 2 (45:55):
So if but if you went over there, if they were,
if they were amicable to you coming, and you took
those pieces and showed it to them, they wouldn't be
able to tell you that's a pen because there's no
functional concept to it. They're just pieces of whatever, and
we are just pieces of whatever that have become what

(46:16):
we are based upon the concepts of function. And that's
what the aggregates ultimately do is that's what creation is.
Creation isn't just something that exists. Creation is something that
functionally exists, and that's where you get a sense of
order and consistency. Otherwise. In fact, I would say this

(46:36):
is what disputes relativism as a philosophy, because while yes,
the universe can be very relativistic in the sense that
morality is only as good as everybody agreeing to do it,
and there's no real universal standard that says that you
can't do something. We hold each other in that regard though, right,

(46:57):
because it's like, well, I mean, take law enforcement out
of the equation, take you know, judges and prisons and
politicians completely out and if you know, if you wanted
to kill someone, well, who's going to stop you? Well,
I mean you could say.

Speaker 6 (47:13):
That Western civilization out of the equation Western civilization to say,
all these idiots outside universities with plat cards want to
tear down it's the only thing that's saving their lives.

Speaker 3 (47:23):
Well, it's true. I mean, it's true.

Speaker 2 (47:25):
But I mean when you when you think about it
from that vantage point, it is the aggregate of society,
all the multiple aggregates of society that constitute a consistent reality.
A say that to be functionally useful, well, killing people
randomly is probably not that functional, doesn't really serve any

(47:47):
useful purpose. It might serve a personal purpose if there's
a vendetta or something like that, or just even a
craving for evil or cruelty.

Speaker 4 (47:57):
Who knows it is an unskilled act.

Speaker 2 (47:59):
It is unskillful, as Buddhism will call this unskillful. They
don't use the word sin, they use the word unskillfulness.
And that's pretty much means the same thing, but just
with different connotations. I guess you could say that you
know that that's what aggregates are. You can read about
them with those those sutras, you know, lots of Buddhist
texts talk about it. That's where you can learn more
about it. All right, what's our next question?

Speaker 7 (48:23):
So the next question is, is the concept of divine
images the precursor to the doctrine of the trinity, where
a figure can be both God and not a God
because they possess the divine name like an Exodus twenty three,
verse twenty one.

Speaker 2 (48:38):
No, No, there's no relationship here between what's being described
there in Exodus and the doctrine of the Trinity and
Christian theology that very completely separate things because we're not
talking about something that you know, can be God under
certain circumstances. We're talking about their nature of God himself.

(49:03):
And God exists in this, in this you could say
tri unity, this perfection that is made up of this this,
this trinitarian form. But no one part of that trinity
is any less God. And that's I think the mysterious
part for people to try to wrap their heads around

(49:24):
is that the whole ever created.

Speaker 6 (49:26):
Yes, it's the whole of God. Is the whole of
God is before any time and space. You know that
God the Son is the first thoughts of the Father
eternally begotten, the Father uncreated, the Sun forgotten, the Spirit
proceeding perfectly present before the dawn of creation. And obviously

(49:50):
Christian faith is that God the Son then becomes flesh
in the Virgin Mary.

Speaker 2 (49:56):
The theological term is consubstantial, right, we use that in
the in the yes, it is a it is a
a perfect substance of unity.

Speaker 3 (50:12):
They're not separate. They're separate, you could almost say, separate.

Speaker 2 (50:19):
In action, but not in in in in in innocence. Okay,
it's the Holy Spirit is just as much God as Christ,
as God, as much as the Father as God in
Christian theology, but each one has their own functional direction.
You could say, you know, it is not the Father's

(50:41):
action to save.

Speaker 3 (50:44):
That's that's the Son's action.

Speaker 2 (50:46):
It's not the the son's action to sustain. That's the
Holy Spirit's action.

Speaker 3 (50:51):
You know.

Speaker 2 (50:51):
But they're no less God, and it's not as though
you know God, you know, inhabits them. They are, you know,
Because that that's when you start getting into some of
the heresies that were refuted by the various ecumenical councils
that dealt with them, because a lot of them were wondering, well,
maybe Jesus was just a man who was adopted by

(51:12):
God and became the Christ. Then you got others that's
half God, half got yeah, or you know, it's like
it's it's two nature's right. He's he's he's a man,
but you know, but he becomes like he's adopted into
into God. And there's all these different ones, and we
can do a show on the various.

Speaker 6 (51:33):
It might be worth it, you know, because a lot
of a lot of I mean, I read this, Look,
I read a lot of I'm not an evangelical Christian.
I'm a Catholic, but but I do I do read,
you know's there's lots of worthwhile evangelical Christians that write
things and all the rest of it. But one of

(51:53):
my reflections is that they're very very well. Often they
are they were refer to Jesus as though he is
not does not have equality with God. You know, they
talk about the son of God, and of course he
is the son of God, but he is also God
the Son which is which is a better way of
describing Jesus Christ. And so so maybe worth doing a

(52:17):
show on that, because I think there is a lot
of confusion, and you know, a lot of a lot
of your viewers are from that milliu about we're clearing
it up.

Speaker 2 (52:26):
All right, well maybe next season, well, well we'll tackle
the various christologies and why some of them became heresies.

Speaker 6 (52:34):
And actually perfectly understandable when you go through the heresies.
It's not like we're saying, oh, these are all evil,
wicked people. It makes sense that that it took a
while to figure this stuff out, you know. So we're
not using it as the kind of heresy is as
as is sort of cartoonishly adopted by Monty Python. We're

(52:55):
talking about we're talking about earnest people trying to figure
things out, you know, Villaincia.

Speaker 2 (53:02):
No no, and even narcissism, which I think gets a
real bad rap from you know, the Orthodox Christian world,
you know, not the Eastern. I'm talking just Orthodoxy in
terms of what is the accepted theology of the Nish Creed,
you know, the Council, and I see it. It's you know,

(53:22):
even even even narcissism. There were conceptualizations that Gnosticism had
developed that became part of the standard theology. And I
would say that are the development of the Holy Trinity
in terms of how it develops in theology, not in reality,

(53:44):
because there is no development for an uncreated being. We
don't need to worry about that. It's just our understanding
of it's going to develop, because it is a mystery,
and it's a very challenging one, particularly for the ancient
mind to wrap its head around in a culture where
God could only be one, you know, and monotheism they
took seriously. So even implying that one God in three persons,

(54:06):
it still sounds a little too pagan for some of
the Jewish thinkers of that time, which is why they
were trying to make sense of it in a different way.
Gnosticism gave us the answer, and I really think the
Church did say, Okay, we're going to keep that, even
though we're gonna throw the Gnostics out, we're going to
keep this. And it was basically Gnostic emanation theology that helped,
I think us to develop the kind of theology that

(54:28):
we now use in the Church and say that this
is the standard by which we will base our beliefs.
And in Gnosticism, all of these various eons, the eons
of these higher beings, if you will, emanate from something higher.

(54:49):
So it's always like there's this uncreated source. We can
call that, you know, God, the unknowable God, and then
that emanates out more a profound sense. And we see
this in Jewish mysticism too, with unsoft and all that
kind of thing, the mystical tree of life. These are
all concepts that are part of the esoteric tradition. And

(55:11):
narcissism was right there in the middle of it. And
while I'm not saying that the Father emanates Christ and
Christ emanates the Holy Spirit, or the Father and the
Son emanates the Holy Spirit, I am kind of saying
that that's sort of how the Church tries to make it,
make it make sense when people ask about it.

Speaker 6 (55:30):
Well, in talking about the press, well we should have
a show on it, but talk about the procession, you know,
the Holy Spirit proceeds.

Speaker 3 (55:40):
Yeah, it is because.

Speaker 6 (55:41):
I'm also talk about heseechasm and the uncreated light and
you know all these, you know.

Speaker 2 (55:46):
Because Christ talks about the paraclet that's coming but not
here yet, you know, when in in as a precursor
to Pentecost and all that type of thing.

Speaker 6 (55:56):
My final bone of contention with with you know, the Father,
the the Catholic Church has retained the in the in
the creed we talk about that is that if it
was introduced to combat arianism, it failed, Yes, so get
rid of it.

Speaker 2 (56:15):
No point, Yeah, there's no you're right, No, you're right,
I mean, and it's it's I think it should have
never been changed, even though I don't think you're going
to find that if.

Speaker 6 (56:26):
You doesn't offend me though, doesn't offend me.

Speaker 2 (56:28):
If you take if you take a a an Orthodox
person and really sit down with them and talk about
what they think. I mean, there's no disagreement really, it's
it was just essentially the problem is not that it
was put in there. The problem was that was put
in there without there with their say, they.

Speaker 6 (56:48):
Were not asked without achmenical council, right.

Speaker 2 (56:51):
And then we was said that would never be done,
that the tenets of the faith could never be even
minor things could not be reinterpreted or changed in any
way without everyone's agreement. And that's the big I mean,
that's what creates really, that was the straw on the
that broke the camel's back as far as the Great
Schism is concerned. Yeah, and that's why Orthodox are like,
you know, the Church is always saying, oh, the Eastern churches.

(57:14):
They need to come back to us, and the Orthodox
are like.

Speaker 3 (57:17):
You, You're the one that left us, you.

Speaker 2 (57:20):
Know, and they got a point because they stayed together.
Row is now its own thing. So you know, in
a way, the Orthodox, I think have the better argument
than the Catholics do.

Speaker 3 (57:30):
But because the Catholics.

Speaker 2 (57:31):
Return, yeah, I know, you know, the McLean Church is
firmly in both East and West, and I think, you know,
kind of the political disagreements are foolish.

Speaker 3 (57:43):
But it is.

Speaker 2 (57:44):
People will be people anyway. We're going to now take
our break here and when we come back, we will
be starting our show tonight on h Well, I guess
you could call it a psycho spiritual journey with a
brand new guests. Jessica Taylor, you don't want to miss
this one.

Speaker 9 (58:02):
Don't go away, just pretty.

Speaker 11 (58:28):
Good to tracing the feeling of Goosenschara.

Speaker 12 (59:21):
A gold thing and didn't get.

Speaker 13 (59:27):
Something? She also coins pretty good?

Speaker 11 (01:00:51):
How does say Jay?

Speaker 1 (01:00:58):
How does say?

Speaker 14 (01:01:02):
Every night and every day? Over my hands? I gather anyway,
I'm gonna walk along until you've.

Speaker 15 (01:01:10):
Gone along out of my dad. Never give us a polis.

Speaker 10 (01:01:23):
And the opto.

Speaker 16 (01:01:26):
The feel of the whole.

Speaker 10 (01:01:37):
Cha haven't said any injin have you haven't said any injured?

Speaker 11 (01:02:42):
Never game apoll.

Speaker 12 (01:02:49):
I al was talking.

Speaker 13 (01:02:53):
The whole things need.

Speaker 9 (01:02:56):
Do s.

Speaker 1 (01:04:11):
Not away, do not already, not age, not.

Speaker 10 (01:04:29):
A weekday, do not agreement.

Speaker 2 (01:05:13):
Welcome back everyone to the second part of Vestiges After Dark,
as we get ready to embark on this journey with
our guest Jessica Taylor. She's gonna tell us her story
and how it led to remarkable spiritual insights. It's gonna
be a good one. Don't go anywhere, okay everyone. Our

(01:06:58):
guest tonight is Jessica Taylor. She is an author, speaker,
and advocate whose life was transformed after surviving a life
threatening brain injury. Her memoir From Tragedy to Triumph Reawakening
My Broken Brain, has touched countless lives and raised awareness
about head injury recovery, earning praise from Sarah Ferguson, Ferguson

(01:07:18):
and a former President of Ireland. Through her journey, Jessica
gained a deeper understanding of spirituality and humanity's interconnectedness, which
she explores in her book Spiritual Awakening. Her research into theology,
the Bible and hidden Christian teachings on reincarnation inspires others
to embrace their spiritual dimension and find peace and purpose.

(01:07:40):
Jessica has appeared on television, in radio in Ireland, in Canada,
and has spoken at head injury conferences across Canada. Her
story has been featured in documentaries made in Ireland in
British Columbia, highlighting her advocacy for head injury awareness and
her profound message of resilience and spiritual growth. Let us

(01:08:01):
welcome to Vestiges after dark. Jessica, how are you doing tonight?

Speaker 4 (01:08:05):
Just hi? Hello?

Speaker 5 (01:08:09):
Can you hear me?

Speaker 3 (01:08:10):
Okay, yeah, we can hear you. Just fine, you can
hear you.

Speaker 5 (01:08:14):
No, I'm not too bad. I get tired after four
o'clock in the afternoon, so I don't know, you know
how inspiring I'm going to be.

Speaker 3 (01:08:22):
Oh, no worries, No worries.

Speaker 6 (01:08:24):
I'm sure you will be eleven am here.

Speaker 3 (01:08:30):
Australian time.

Speaker 6 (01:08:32):
Yeah, we'll do Australian time.

Speaker 5 (01:08:36):
So it's been a life changing experience. Number one, the
injury to my brain. It was devastating and I actually
should have called the book all right, the wig that

(01:09:01):
saved my life? Yeah, because when I fell onto a
twelve inch steel plated door at the bottom. I had
a wig on because I was in a cosmetic business
where I was selling wigs nineteen sixty nine, was from
Yere and I was open in the mall from ten
until ten every day, so I couldn't go to a hairdresser,

(01:09:24):
So it was advertising by wearing a wig. But when
I fell down those fifteen steps and my head struck
that door with the wig on, I still had a
two and a half inch split on my right side
of my head.

Speaker 3 (01:09:40):
Oh my goodness.

Speaker 5 (01:09:41):
Can you imagine a curly wig protecting me for that?
If I had no wig on, I wouldn't be here. Yeah,
I just wouldn't be here. But I mean, people would
have to read my automiography, my memoir to understand everything

(01:10:03):
that happened. I wrote it because I wanted to share
with other head injured people and families to let them
see that you're not stupid. After a brain injury, you
can actually go on a higher level. You can have
miraculous changes. And that's a lot to do with the

(01:10:25):
theta in the brain. You know, alphabeta and theta sure rising.
And according to one of the doctors who gave me
a test, he said, your theta is the most predominant.
This is immediately after the injury. And you know theta

(01:10:47):
the Theta dimension is for people who heal are on
a very high vibrational frequency. Well known clairvoyance mediums, things
like that, all sort of alternative work. Here was me
lying in the hospital getting this test and they're saying
you are Teita predominant. It didn't make any sense. So

(01:11:10):
I know that there was an alteration. Whether it's to
do with again my own theory the synaptic cleft that
goes between all the brain cells. Somebody when scientist once
wrote that the peak of that synapsis is quantum energy,

(01:11:33):
and I think that relates in some way because something
like that happened to me. But on the metaphysical side
of it, I I went, well, I'll just read this
little bit of the intro. When a life threatening brain
injury wipe claim my memory, I became a child in
an adult body at the age of thirty one. By

(01:11:53):
learning how to rebuild my world, I heightened awareness, took
over my mind, body and spirit. Spiritually, I found myself
on another plane of existence as my mind expended to
new dimensions. That's how I started it, and I literally
did but on the physical aspect of life. I didn't

(01:12:14):
know how to cook. I didn't know how to dress
properly if somebody else had to say, look, this is
SUITU that with suit you whatever. I just didn't know
anything of our physical nature, you.

Speaker 3 (01:12:28):
Know, right, Yeah, I.

Speaker 5 (01:12:31):
Seem to go totally into the metaphysical existence. And I
started going in and seeing myself in past lives. And
I'd be sitting on a chair when people are around
me and talking, and I didn't feel I'm here on
this planet Earth. I'm somewhere else, And unknowingly, I didn't

(01:12:55):
know I was grounding myself till the spiritual has told
me this year's later. I would put my hands on
the seat of my chair, cling to it because I
knew that I was zooming somewhere, obviously not physically, but metaphysically.
I was zooming out there somewhere. To mention, I was

(01:13:17):
protecting myself without knowing it. But again, you know, that's
our own spirit coming to us and helping us to
know what to do in a physical sense. Then I
started seeing spirits and like I became clairvoyant, started writing poetry,

(01:13:42):
and one of the poems I put in my books
came from the scenes. Some of the spirits that I
saw were the scenes. I could see them, and then
I saw I realized then that Jesus was one of
those scenes. There's no doubt about it. No, there's no

(01:14:02):
doubt about it. And he was one of those beautiful people.
So what I did was I started studying. I knew
it was either live or die. Because unfortunately for brain
injured people that don't like to use the one the
word victims were survivors. One of one of the things

(01:14:28):
that happens to us is suicide. So many people commit suicide.
And it was either that for me, or you know,
stay alive and do something to learn everything all over again.
Because it had all gone. You could say, this slate

(01:14:48):
was what excuse me? The slate was quite clean, and
I had to learn again. And so I met a
lovely theologist who said, who believed in alternative alternative religion?
And he said, Jessica, just go to the library and

(01:15:11):
start studying. And I went to the library and he said, yeah,
go to library and studies. So I went to the
library and I said to the librarian. I was told
to come to the library and study. I had a
serious brain injury and I don't know anything about the world.

(01:15:35):
I need to learn again. And she said, well, listen, dear,
what do you want to study? The word came out
and I did not express it me physical Jessica God. Now,
I was literally an agnostic in Ireland where I grew up,

(01:15:55):
because I couldn't handle the Protestant and Roman Catholic fight.
And you know I couldn't stand it. I couldn't have.
I actually as brought up a Protestant. I played tennis
with the Roman Catholics on Sunday instead of going to church.

Speaker 6 (01:16:14):
In Jessica, I was a church being the priest, but
a convert to the to become a Catholic. So, and
you can hear from my accent. I'm from Manchester originally.
My grandmother was from County Clare, so I.

Speaker 5 (01:16:27):
I was county.

Speaker 6 (01:16:30):
I used to go into County Kerry every year. He
used to get to killany an inch. Anyway, beautiful, I
miss it.

Speaker 5 (01:16:41):
It's a beautiful place. But anyway, I started studying, and
of all things, Vatican books that are no longer in
most of the libraries fell out of that research room
into my hand. There were books encyclopedias from the Vatican.

(01:17:04):
I thought, okay, maybe this is when I talked to
my friend and I said, is this what I'm going
to study? Because I was very naive, you know, I
was learning everything about life again. And he said, obviously, Jessica,
this is your path. You know, You've been sent to
this place to do this study. And then I found

(01:17:29):
out that the word theology, according to Vatican literature that
I found is actually called the science of the supernatural,
which to me is a big controversial contradiction because well.

Speaker 6 (01:17:47):
The Queen of the Sciences Church doesn't like.

Speaker 5 (01:17:50):
The Church doesn't particularly like anything of the supernatural.

Speaker 12 (01:17:54):
You know.

Speaker 6 (01:17:56):
Well, yeah, it ended up down that route, but it
wasn't originally like that.

Speaker 5 (01:18:04):
Yeah, and you know, only priests were allowed read the
Vulgate Bible. Why weren't Why keep that away from the public.
I just I researched into that and I wrote up
my answers into that because the Vulgate Bible has fifty

(01:18:25):
two chapters Calledeglesiasticus that are not in modern Bibles. Now,
you know, there's a lot of conspiracy having to hide
those chapters, you know, and reincarnation is in one of them.
I found, And then I started researching Jesus Jesus life.

(01:18:48):
That took me years, because the whole thing took me
twenty years of the writing and the actual research. So
I called as far as I was concerned with people,
I said, what I was doing, I said, I'm researching

(01:19:09):
the science of the supernatural, so the terminology that I used.
And of course then I investigated the same sayings of
Jesus and Aramaic, which we forget to do. Arabic was
his language, and there's drastic changes from Aramaic to Greek

(01:19:31):
to Latin, and I had I investigated all of that
as well, and then established that there is a beautiful
word for God called Elohem, which is male and female,
not one, not male, male and female energy. And then

(01:19:51):
was the most sensational thing that happened to me was
my great friendship with an Irish cannon retired at the
age of ninety Canon Keen actually a Protestant, and he's
a Roman Catholic, and I'm his in his house and
I'm falling in love with the man.

Speaker 4 (01:20:15):
I felt like.

Speaker 5 (01:20:15):
Saying, okay, if I was just thirty years younger, you know,
and he was just so beautiful and I really believe
and so do my friends and the people who have
read my book that he was actually divulging to me
secrets that he had to hold back so that he

(01:20:38):
could pass on in peace having told somebody, he told
me secrets and blow your mind, literally blow your mind.
Some of them, well, one of them was that there
was it wasn't Peter that do you know how the

(01:20:59):
papacy is all formed on Jesus asking one of his
students his yeah, his followers, his students, whatever they were,
that's what they thought he was. And one of them
said what he was metaphysical, beautiful, being spiritual, here to

(01:21:21):
teach everybody whatever he said. And they based the whole
philosophy on the fact that Jesus said, thou art Peter,
and upon this rock, I will build my church church.
It wasn't. It was Simon bar Jonah that Cannon actually

(01:21:43):
expressed that to me, Simon bar Jonah. And then he
took me back to the origin in Jesus language, in Aramaic,
thou art Kifa and upon this key fact, I will
build my gathering. So you're looking at two feminine nouns.

(01:22:06):
Then the next thing it went to Greek dowart petra
feminine noun, feminine noun. Then when the church took over,
it was Petra's and masculine noun, and they've turned Patras
to Peter. Peter did not arrive in Biblical doctrines for
many years later that word Peter. And I when I

(01:22:31):
asked that canon, why on earth did all this happen?
Do you want to tell me how from way back
from dart Kifa to this Peter and everything? He said, Jessica,
because you can't have a feminine noun following a feminine noun.
I mean, that's mind blowing that a canon of the

(01:22:54):
church would divulge that to me, you know, yeah, And
we had long discussions about it. He was just amazing.
And so we spoke then about a man that I
had researched called Nicholas Notovich, and he wrote about the

(01:23:15):
unknown life of Jesus. He was a Russian that fell
off a donkey in Ledak and fortunately there was a
monkst monastery nearby and they took care of him, and
while he was there, they gave him a legend about

(01:23:36):
Jesus in India. But he was called I'm so glad
somebody else heard of that.

Speaker 7 (01:23:46):
If I'm not mistaken. Jesus is referred to as Isa
in the Quran as well.

Speaker 5 (01:23:55):
Yeah, and so you know, he agreed with everything that
I had discussed with him about Nicholas Notovich and Jesus life.
He wasn't denying it at all. And then I discussed
with him these are things that I wrote in my book.

(01:24:16):
A man called Satya Saya Baba and he actually had
heard of Saya Baba. This amazed me. A man in
India who raised the dead and appeared to people with
some of his body being nothing but light. And didn't
you know, but the people that I spoke, the church

(01:24:38):
people I spoke about him in Ireland said it was blasphemous.
But Satya Saya Baba was another high frequency individual who
came here to teach in India.

Speaker 1 (01:24:52):
And I mean.

Speaker 5 (01:24:55):
Then there was another Actually what happened was a priest
at the church, a priest from the Vatican, Vatican called
Mario Massaloni Masalone. He actually went out to he worked
at the Vatican and he went out to India for

(01:25:17):
twelve years to study the life of Sia Baba. And
he actually wrote a book about him. And they didn't
want it. They were against it. They just had no
time for it whatsoever, and excommunicated that beautiful priest Mario,
a wonderful man to step out and do something like that.

(01:25:38):
Compare Sia Baba to Jesus. That was one of his
reasons for getting excommunicated. The other reason was because he
said Jesus' second name wasn't his second name, it was
his spiritual dimension, Christ, Jesus the Christ. He should be

(01:25:59):
called Jesus Christ.

Speaker 6 (01:26:02):
That's what he is called in the gospels. Sorry, that's
what the gospels do. That's how the gospels do.

Speaker 5 (01:26:10):
Yeah, you name it.

Speaker 6 (01:26:11):
I mean Christ, isn't his surname Christ? Christ means the
anointed one? Is the Greek version of mess from Hebrew.

Speaker 5 (01:26:22):
Yes, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 9 (01:26:24):
And then.

Speaker 5 (01:26:28):
Actually he didn't know about a man called Black Jesus
in Africa, and he was absolutely fascination. This is a
canon of the Roman Gothic Church. Fini was retired, so
I guess he didn't mind what he said and what
questions he asked and everything else. And this black Jesus
in Africa was doing everything Jesus did, raising the dead

(01:26:51):
and everything else. But they killed him, so he was killed.
There's another person I wrote about in the book, and
then I studied in New All probably know the Hamadi
Library Gnostic teachings. Yes, yeah, I study in all of them,
and I wrote about them, what I feel about them
and everything. And I mean in it the Gospels of

(01:27:13):
Mary Magdalene, Paul, Thomas, Philip, you know, at the Coptic
Museum in Cairo. Why is the general public not? It's
only a few people like you, And.

Speaker 6 (01:27:26):
You can buy them on Amazon. I've got a copy here.
They're not secret.

Speaker 5 (01:27:31):
Einstein and Plato and you know, people like you that
do that studying, that get that enlightenment. You know.

Speaker 2 (01:27:42):
I think, Jessica, if I may interject here, I think
part of the the issue that I have seen as
as a pastor who works at this higher level, the
kind that you're talking about in a lot of ways,
trying to you know, keep a foot firmly in in
the sacred tradition, but also you know another one in

(01:28:05):
a in a in a bit of a higher place.
Because I have to kind of relate to people on
multiple levels. I can't just focus on on one group
or a piece, one particular ideology, because the the the
nature of.

Speaker 3 (01:28:19):
God is so much larger than all that.

Speaker 2 (01:28:21):
So I always find that my my role as a
as a pastor is to is to reach people where
they're at. So I think part of what I have
noticed that you're if I if I'm understanding everything you're
saying correctly, I think part of the challenge is that
people are largely uncomfortable stepping outside of their paradigms.

Speaker 3 (01:28:45):
And it's not just religion.

Speaker 2 (01:28:47):
It's it's it's I think we see it more with
politics than we do with religion these days, you know,
And I think that.

Speaker 6 (01:28:53):
Well, that is religion is religious, most people's religions now
it is why it's so dangerous.

Speaker 3 (01:28:59):
Yeah, yeah, But I think what it is is what
it sounds to me.

Speaker 2 (01:29:05):
As you know, you're coming from this largely agnostic foundation,
you have this traumatic accident that changes your perception of
reality to a way that now you have to start over.
And now you're starting over in a way that is
inspiring you, almost directing you in a way that you're
being led to discover the rest of the picture that's

(01:29:30):
been incomplete up until now, and that gave you an
opportunity to step outside of whatever paradigms you existed in
before that you were comfortable.

Speaker 3 (01:29:39):
I think that's what it is. It's about comfort.

Speaker 2 (01:29:41):
I think people don't like to be uncomfortable, they don't
like to be afraid, and anything that challenges what they
think is true scares them. And that doesn't matter if
you're the pope or or if you're just like some
little person trying to make it in the world. Everybody
seems to suffer from that same phenomenon. So it really

(01:30:03):
comes down to overcoming fear. So do you think your
accident puts you into it?

Speaker 10 (01:30:08):
Say?

Speaker 3 (01:30:08):
Where, Well, the worst that could.

Speaker 2 (01:30:10):
Happen to a person sort of happened to you in
a way, and now what is they left to be
afraid of? Now it's just let's see what's out there.
And it sort of opened you up in a way
that the average person would never even think to do
because they've been playing it safe their whole lives and
they haven't had a traumatic experience like what you're describing.

(01:30:30):
So it's just easy to maintain status quo and not
rock the boat and not anger anybody and just keep
everything simple.

Speaker 3 (01:30:38):
I think that's what it is.

Speaker 2 (01:30:40):
But you know, maybe we all need to have a
traumatic moment, maybe not necessarily one that's physical, but certainly
one that forces us to step outside of ourselves. You
experienced that in a real physical way, and it certainly
was life changing. I mean, you've been on this direction
for quite some time now. You said it happened in

(01:31:01):
your thirties, so you know now eighty seven. Oh my god,
I feel like amazing.

Speaker 4 (01:31:09):
You look great.

Speaker 3 (01:31:10):
That's fantastic.

Speaker 12 (01:31:11):
May I asked how you do it?

Speaker 6 (01:31:12):
Yes, it's West of Island skin, isn't it. That's what
I don't believe me.

Speaker 5 (01:31:19):
They just say, you can't be, you can't be. I am,
that's it.

Speaker 3 (01:31:23):
And I would I would have guessed.

Speaker 4 (01:31:26):
I my Irish genes have a little bit of that
in me.

Speaker 9 (01:31:29):
I would.

Speaker 3 (01:31:30):
I would have guessed.

Speaker 2 (01:31:30):
I would have been afraid to even say it because
I would have guessed, like you know, early sixties, and
I would have thought that I was going too high.

Speaker 3 (01:31:37):
I really, you look fantastic. You look fantastic.

Speaker 9 (01:31:40):
Yeah, so this is good for you.

Speaker 2 (01:31:42):
I mean, honestly, the spiritual the spiritual insights, definitely, you know,
it has a has a profound effect not just on health,
but on on on longevity too.

Speaker 9 (01:31:49):
You know, that's great.

Speaker 5 (01:31:51):
Like you disappeared as certainly being to my advantage. Well,
it's all being to my advantage and a certain certain
extent anger, greed, envy, jealousy, all of them. I think
they were called the seven Deadly Sins or something in religion.
They were all gone. Never, not in one day have

(01:32:14):
I ever witnessed any of those emotions since that head injury.

Speaker 4 (01:32:19):
A lot of people in the world knock on the head.

Speaker 6 (01:32:21):
Then we used to dole them out.

Speaker 5 (01:32:28):
At my launch, I just tell people that if they
see the Pope running after me down the high street,
there'll know controversion. My book is.

Speaker 9 (01:32:39):
I don't know.

Speaker 6 (01:32:46):
I actually I actually think, you know, there is a
sort of a sea change that's that's been a healthy
one that's happened in the life of the church. You know,
the church used to used to busy itself policing everything,
you know, locking things down, and that just that just
breeds conspiracy theories, right, Oh, what they're trying to cover up?
You know. Actually that's the church has not done that

(01:33:07):
for a very long time, and long may it continue.
And they've got a long way to go on these things.
You know, likes the best, some likes the best disinfectant
and all of that. But I wanted to ask you
something about I don't think it's incidental where you're from, Jessica,
because years ago I mentioned on this show something which

(01:33:29):
is important to me. I used to say, or still
say it funerals that I conduct. But in the Christian
faith came to the British Isles, not from the Vatican,
but from the Desert Fathers, really from from the and
where's the desert Fathers had the desert to surround themselves with.
There's not much desert in the west coast of Ireland

(01:33:49):
or the west coast of event any part of the
British Isles. But they had the ocean, and so they
built their monasteries, you know, on on Craggy Rot, right.
So so anyone on this show that's seen one of
the prequels of Star Wars, you know, Luke's on that island,

(01:34:11):
that Skeltic, Michael. So that yeah, so that that that's
that's near where you're from, right and so, and that's
where that's where the Celtic monks built their monasteries in
what what we call the They wanted to reflect this
idea of the liminal space. So the liminal space in
that sense between the earth and the sea, which is

(01:34:32):
never a fixed line which draw it on maps, but
it's never fixed. The tie comes in and out, which
was a kind of existential representation of of of the
borders between this world, the material world and the and
the metaphysical world, you know, or between heaven and Earth,
if you wanted to put it in different terms. So

(01:34:53):
I don't think that's a mistake that you're from that
you're from that part of the world, because I think
and I think what you're describing is tapping into this
notion that we can in fact exist in the shallows
of that in this world. So although we're of the earth,
we can paddle in the you know, and and swim
in the waves if you like. Of that border between

(01:35:15):
the borders not fixed, it's it's kind of what's the word,
it allows information either way. It ebbs and flows like
the tide into which do you think that's a yeah,
do you think that's a good a good image of
of where you're kind of where you kind of where
perhaps a brain injury actually can can put some money
in that space, because you know, you've lost your muscle

(01:35:38):
memory and the stuff that that went on before. In
a way you kind of you kind of permanent. You know,
you're put in that it's easy for you to be
aware of those of those of the breakthrough between the worlds.
Am I describing it very badly?

Speaker 5 (01:35:53):
You are actually and you're right because but I know
it's only my theory, but I firmly believe that brain
injury in the medical profession, they concentrate only on cellular
cell injury. They never talk about the synaptic cleft in

(01:36:15):
between every brain cell hundreds because.

Speaker 6 (01:36:18):
They don't understand it, because it's metaphysical.

Speaker 5 (01:36:23):
That's why they don't tap into it. And I believe
because of the fact that the doctor said, your theta
is the is the most dominant, and that's not everybody's
theta is dominant, and with everyone I think it's beta,
isn't it or whatever? It's not theta only in special

(01:36:44):
people who are more into the metaphysical aspect of life.
And how the heck could that happen to me unless
something happened there that those synaptic clefts were heightened, possibly
frequency raised.

Speaker 6 (01:37:03):
I also have a theory that Irish people in general
have a higher theater brainway situation. But I'm serious, I'm
absolutely serious. I mean, you know, John Knox he's a mathematician,
but he's an apologist for the Christian faith, right, you know,
he goes on he does these debates and he says,
you know, when he went to UNI and they said, look,

(01:37:23):
you know, you're really smart. You can have a great
career as a professor, but you've got to get rid
of all this Christian business, you know, because no one
will take you seriously if you believe in God. You know,
and they said, let me know, you're Irish. There's a
sort of assumption that you know, Irish people have.

Speaker 9 (01:37:37):
Got this.

Speaker 6 (01:37:39):
You know, sense of of a of a divine connection
that is that actually is fairly unique to Irish people.
I mean, it exists in other people as well. So
that's just a theory of mine. Well, I think that
I think the tales of tynan Org are based on
some metaphysical reality.

Speaker 3 (01:37:55):
You know, they gave us whiskey, father, they gave us whiskey.
So I mean, and that proves yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:38:03):
Right, when I was a.

Speaker 5 (01:38:04):
Child in Ireland, you know, people spoke about the soul
just caught quite naturally.

Speaker 10 (01:38:09):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:38:10):
Yeah, so he's a good soul, she's a good soul.
But they spoke about it quite naturally. And so that
was another subject matter that I had to investigate those
twenty years. What is the soul? That's all in my book.
And as far as I'm concerned, I mean, you must

(01:38:32):
know the universe is alive.

Speaker 3 (01:38:34):
Right, absolutely, have no question about that.

Speaker 5 (01:38:36):
Anything that is alife has got consciousness and energy.

Speaker 3 (01:38:41):
Yep.

Speaker 5 (01:38:42):
And I firmly believed that's where we all came from.
I agree, conscious energy and we're all probably.

Speaker 6 (01:38:51):
I think that's perfectly biblical. I think, you know, that's
the whole essence of Genesis. You know, that not the
Genesis of Science book, because it's not it's a poetic work,
but the idea that that God creates us in his
image and likeness, which means and the direct connotation there
is is to be co creators with him. So the fact,

(01:39:12):
the fact that we are, what makes us like God
is that we are in fact creative and and and
so yeah, I mean all I think that's that's Unfortunately,
you know, in any sort of stratified religion, these things
get sort of bored out, you know, like you know,
they get sort of because of repetition, it becomes sort

(01:39:34):
of forgotten. How amazing that principle is. And I think,
you know, it's the it's the job of certainly of
the clergy in every generation. And I think the church
has got far too it's got far too rationalist. Actually,
And I say that as somebody that enjoys rationality. I'm
a I'm a tomistic kind of a scholar. But you
can have too much of that. And I think, but

(01:39:59):
the wonder of that, you know, in the image of God,
he created the male and female, He created them. Because
we've heard it for so long, you know, thousands of
years period, we go, oh yeah, yeah, he creates the
image of God. It's like no, no, no, he created
us in the image of God. Like that's amazing, that's miraculous,
that's you know, think about all of that. That connotates,
you know, that we're to be like him, to be creative.

(01:40:22):
That's why we're artistic, is why we create music, It's
why we have it's how we can actually fall in
love with people, how we can you know, it is
the essence of why we care for our children. Just
this one principle. I mean, and we've of course got
many many more that have been revealed to us by
God through the ages. But I think we can we
do need people like you to to reawaken that sense

(01:40:45):
of wonder because we can get so anesthetized or over
familiar with the what are actually remarkable, miraculous principles and
calling God.

Speaker 5 (01:40:59):
He you know, male and female, male and female duality.
That's why that's what early church people, well, don't forget,
it was the Roman empress started it off. They're the
ones I blame for these hidden truths, keeping away these

(01:41:20):
hidden truths. The Roman Empress had control over Justinian and
all of those early Roman empress you know, had control
over the church.

Speaker 6 (01:41:33):
They had and they thought they did. I mean, I mean,
I'm not disagreeing with what you said, by the way,
I'm just but I do believe that obviously Almighty God
is more powerful than that. And so you know, through
through whatever, let's just let's be honest. It's politics, right,
the politics of whatever, whether it's the Roman Empire or

(01:41:54):
you know, governments of today, they always try and he
and and to a certain extent they have their day
like devil. But actually there's a sort there's God's timing
in all of this, which you know, God doesn't allow
things to unfold without his hand on them, and so
and actually you can see that. I mean, if it
was down to the will of emperors, the Christianity would

(01:42:15):
have been crushed. They tried, for they tried very seriously
for two hundred years and up to really three four
hundred years to eradicate the Christian faith, and they couldn't.
So you know, that's why we don't know who the
successor of Caesar is, but we do know who the
successor of Peter is.

Speaker 3 (01:42:30):
Like it's a miracle, there's a there is a a
it's certainly a a flavor.

Speaker 2 (01:42:39):
I think that history has imprinted into the nature of
Christian theology that sort of distorts some of the original essence.
For example, the Shakina that is a feminine principle. It
is the very physical presence of God that would exist,
that would sit on the mercy seat right of the Arca,
the kevenet Sophia, another example, the Wisdom of God.

Speaker 3 (01:43:03):
Also the feminists.

Speaker 2 (01:43:05):
This is all the feminine aspects of the divine that
are all there in Judeo Christian theology, but very much marginalized.
I think yes, and I think that's what you're speaking
to Jessica right.

Speaker 6 (01:43:17):
Well, and even even with Christian you know, with a
smaller Orthodox Christian theology. Yes, we refer to father, Son
and Holy Spirit, and yeah, okay, we refer to the
Son as male, Jesus as a male.

Speaker 3 (01:43:28):
That's that's easy.

Speaker 6 (01:43:30):
But when we're talking about God the Father, we're not
talking about the human characteristic, you know, like really it's
a sort of a monarchal term. It's almost like king,
you know, because but we actually, you know, Christian theology
says this is the uncreated God and therefore neither male
nor female. Of course not you know the fact that

(01:43:54):
that's been used in ways that and post feminism, you know,
we get into very postmodern interactions with this that they're
not the interactions that that Saint Paul was having. Then
you know, these are, but it does need to be
said in our generation that these preoccupations that we have
are really not the they're not the essence of what

(01:44:16):
God has revealed.

Speaker 5 (01:44:18):
St. Paul was my favorite, retty good or now pretty impressive.
I quoted some of his quotes that refer to what
I'm talking about.

Speaker 6 (01:44:33):
Don't forget Jesus himself describes himself as the Mother. Hen
Jesus calls himself the mother. Hen Jesus calls himself the
mother Hen in Luke's Gospel, the mother Hen calling his
chickens home. Yeah, I love it well.

Speaker 2 (01:44:47):
In even the spirit in sense in Greek it takes
on a feminine connotation as well. It is still referred
to in the heat pronoun that is still used in
the proper theological speech, but the principle is largely feminist.
Just it is suppressed, it is. It is sort of like, well,

(01:45:09):
we're not going to talk too much about that, you know,
if you're if you're in then you know about it,
but we're not going to talk about it, you know.
And I think we do need to talk about it
because well, because if we're made in God's image, that
means both men and women, of course, right, and so
therefore the manifestation of God has to be both since

(01:45:30):
both women metaphysical.

Speaker 3 (01:45:33):
Yeah, it is physical, yeah, yeah, not tyical.

Speaker 5 (01:45:37):
Not the body metaphysical, the mind, body and spirit is sold.
That's that's our connection as far as I'm concerned from
my years of research.

Speaker 2 (01:45:47):
Well, you talk about sole purpose, do you think do
you think that it was in some way a divine event,
your accident? Do you think that this was sort of
divinely orchestrated serendipit.

Speaker 5 (01:46:02):
I don't think things like that happened, you know, people
saying that they got an envine whatever divine into I
think it was just what happened to me and my
study that brought about, you know. I mean, I just
studied for myself to wake myself up, because even speech

(01:46:22):
was bad. I couldn't write my right handwriting was like
a child. I wasn't grown up in a child in
an adult's body and had to learn everything again. But
it was through my own investigation that woke me up.
And then I thought, oh my god, I've got so

(01:46:45):
much here in all these years. I must share them
with other people. And that's what my readers are so
happy about that. What is the one expression that comes
the most that probably I get mental blocks?

Speaker 4 (01:47:04):
Now you're understand.

Speaker 6 (01:47:07):
I get them, and I don't have a brain, so
it's okay.

Speaker 5 (01:47:11):
It's the age related as well. A new you've created
mm hmmm, A new science of life, you know, a
different total, different aspect of what life is about. That's
what they're saying to me. New perspective on life. You

(01:47:33):
have created a new perspective on life in general.

Speaker 2 (01:47:36):
So you see this as just something that happened, and you,
instead of succumbing to it, you took this as an
opportunity to become something greater. That's that's how you see it.

Speaker 5 (01:47:51):
I don't see myself as greater either, I don't.

Speaker 3 (01:47:54):
You don't see what You don't see your insight now
as greater than before. Oh yeah, in sight, Well that's
what I mean. That's what I mean.

Speaker 17 (01:48:01):
But not me.

Speaker 5 (01:48:03):
I'm just an ordinary person like Everyoneyah.

Speaker 3 (01:48:06):
Sure, sure, sure.

Speaker 2 (01:48:07):
I understand that Jamie suffered a great trauma, not a
brain injury, but just about everything else that could happen.
I want to share a little bit of your and
how it kind of changed you.

Speaker 4 (01:48:17):
But that a concussion but nothing nothing like that.

Speaker 3 (01:48:21):
Yeah, but you were split in two, that's not of Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:48:24):
I had a near death experience back in twenty twelve
that left me. Yeah, it almost ripped me in half,
and I died several times, had to be brought back,
and I had a very disturbing NDE And during the time,
I wasn't I wasn't. I consider myself a Christian, but
I wasn't really practicing and was kind of mad at

(01:48:49):
God at the time. But I had a very dark
experience during the NDE, and then even when I came
out of the NDE, I saw things and felt things
that I couldn't understand. And it wasn't until I did
my research trying to figure out what happened to me
things started lining up and I found my way back

(01:49:10):
to the religious life and trying to trying to explain
some of the weird things that happened to me. I
was able to find the bishop and joined his team
strictly as a secular team member to do paranormal research,
and then you know, sat in on a couple of masses,
and next thing you know, I'm being confirmed into the church.
And it never would have happened had I not had

(01:49:34):
I had I not had the accident.

Speaker 2 (01:49:35):
Do you see it as being like sort of divine
will or do you see it as like she does
just something that happened and he made the best of it.

Speaker 4 (01:49:42):
Mine's a little different from Jessica. I believe that God,
I've said before on this podcast. God kicked me in
the ass because he wanted me to go a certain direction,
and I kept fighting him on it, and I still
struggle with it, just like everybody else. Just but I
was able to understand things a little different. I don't.
I still struggle with anger. I wish I didn't have

(01:50:05):
I wish I could let a lot of that stuff go,
like you've been able to miss Jessica. But uh, I
still struggle with anger, issues, doubts, fears. Although I don't
fear death like I used to, and I don't I
don't grieve like I used to. When someone passes, I
I feel their their loss and I feel for their families.

(01:50:25):
But I know that that it's just the beginning. So
it's a lot of things you researched. I've researched too.
Uh So, Yeah, I believe you should definitely keep an
open mind and and all information is good if you
know how to use it. So I applied you on
on being able to do that research. And you didn't
have the distractions of your former life to keep you

(01:50:45):
in these paradigms, you're able to expand out and and
look what you've done. Uh and now you're now you're
sharing it with everybody.

Speaker 8 (01:50:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:50:53):
I've run a question for Chris. H Chris, I'm not
going to call you father, I'm going to call you Chris,
your real name. Do you feel that the church teachings
now should include uh uh, the our conscious power and

(01:51:21):
how it can heighten the human potential, Like we all
know that we're all energy and we have vibrational frequencies,
and those frequencies I have established and I wrote all
about them in my book. That Actually Saint Paul was
the one that spelled out but in his own language,

(01:51:46):
if it was his language or else it was miss translated.
He meant that people are on different dimensions. Like one
person who's a clairpoint would be on one physical metaphysical dimension.
Another person who can read Latin and they've never spoken
in their life or never studied on another dimension. I

(01:52:09):
have that example in the book actually, but I feel
that people should be taught about our human potential spiritually,
that we are spiritual people housed in a physical body

(01:52:32):
and this and the school should be taught this as well.

Speaker 6 (01:52:36):
You know, well, if only schools taught anything that mattered,
but especially Catholic schools. But I don't, I don't know.
I look, I think that I think there has been
It's hard. It's hard for me to answer because because
I know that it's like grasping after you know, difficult

(01:52:58):
coattail difficult concepts. But yeah, I think I think that. Look,
I think that the when people when we say the church,
there's a tendency to think, oh, you know what do
these cardinals, bishops, priests, you know, what are they indoctrinating
people in and all the rest of it. Now, Look,
I think there was a from an Irish context, and

(01:53:20):
I do understand the Irish context probably better than most.
I get that, But that was really a very narrow
window of of of in the context of God, a
very narrow window of human existence. So so I think
you and I would find some common ground in wanting
to reject certain approaches. But we must also remember that

(01:53:42):
the church includes the people of God as well. And
you know, my my, I'm obviously I'm gen X, so
I'm from a different generation of priests than that you
would have grown up with, you know. So my frustration
is actually that it's the people of God who are
actually stuck in these paradigms. You know, it's very difficult

(01:54:05):
to know and everything's given away to that, Oh what
the church going to do about X? What's the priest
going to do about?

Speaker 8 (01:54:11):
Why?

Speaker 6 (01:54:11):
I might hang on a minute, you know, So I
suspect that We're coming from the same position in many ways,
because I would my call and not just mine. Priests
of my generation would say, and why are you asking
me what I'm doing about growing the church? We are
you asking me about about? I mean, look, I'm happy

(01:54:33):
to pray for you that you know if you say,
would you pray for me? Obviously we pray set times
of the day, and we're happy to include you as
any Christian should in our prayers. But what are you
doing to develop your prayer life? What are you doing
to satisfy the baptismal ministry that you received when you
were baptized? So what are you doing to encourage people

(01:54:54):
to think well maturely about their spirituality and about how
that interacts with the real world and the life, you know,
the mundane lies we have to lead, but also with
with the world to come. So so, although I'm a
very traditional Catholic you know Latin mass guy, right, uh,

(01:55:17):
because I'm traditional, it goes back before Victorian times. And
to say, what are you doing to to be discipled
in the way of Christ? I think that's what Saint
Paul is speaking into and what you have in the
in the in the life of the church. You have
these two big figures and put some Peter and St. Paul,
and they are in a sense very different. You know,

(01:55:40):
how we think about the Petrine ministry is it's kind
of you know, it's stratified and ordered and its authority,
and it's hierarchical.

Speaker 16 (01:55:47):
Uh.

Speaker 6 (01:55:48):
The problem with that is you can end up becoming petrified,
right too rigid. With Saint Paul, we have the apposite.
He talks about the dinam us, you know, the power
where we get the word dynamite from. You know, he's
all zeal and what we need is those two things
in harmony with one another. So you have the zeal
of Paul, but also we do need some structure otherwise

(01:56:11):
people are just completely you know, left well left in
that like you were after your brain injury. In that
Oh my goodness. You know, I've got to find something
to make sense of the world again. And I think
you know, the church ebbs and flows between those two poles,
if you like. If Saint Peter and Saint Paul, I'm
talking about the archetypes of that, not the actual people.
Although you know, I'm happy to talk about those two

(01:56:35):
and there's been far too in the twentieth century, nineteenth
and twentieth centuries, partly as a response to what had
gone on in the seventeenth, sixteen, seventeen, eighteenth centuries. We've
not been in the best mode of the church, and
so but we've got what we've got. There's no point

(01:56:56):
me saying I wish I was born in fourteen ninety two,
because I wasn't. So, you know, I encourage people to
engage in their spirituality, but I think there are safer
and less safe ways of doing that, and I think,
you know, the church is there to provide. Really what
the church calls people to believe. It's pretty much within

(01:57:17):
the Nicene creed, you know, with a few obviously, I mean,
the theology is a broad area. So but really it
has very little to say about how each individual person
should interact with their spiritual life, because that's really a
conversation they should have with their priests. It's why again,
the Orthodox Church are much and much better at saying,

(01:57:40):
you know, you need a spiritual father to develop you.
In the Western Church, we believe that of the clergy,
but we've not passed it on to the people.

Speaker 2 (01:57:47):
We've talked a lot about on this show that metaphysics
is not necessarily something that the Church has emphasized enough
in this.

Speaker 4 (01:57:58):
You were among friends, Jessica.

Speaker 6 (01:58:00):
But in previous times, in previous signs, the Church put
too much on metaphysical for you know, for his own
power as well. Right, so be struck.

Speaker 5 (01:58:11):
What about reincarnation? I mean another person I fell in
love with, not just that Canon. You must know of Origin, that.

Speaker 4 (01:58:24):
Father. Yeah, I fell in.

Speaker 5 (01:58:26):
Love with him, and he said, every soul comes into
the world strengthened by victories or weakened by the defeats
of a previous life. That was Bishop Origin, and he
was persecuted and died in prison, a beautiful bishop, one
of their own bishops. You no, I mean, wouldn't that

(01:58:47):
make it that they would open up the doors then
for people today to have reincarnation included in dogmas? Why
is it left out? I do not understand.

Speaker 2 (01:59:01):
Well, I can probably answer that. I don't think it's
going to be necessarily an answer that you would like.
But I think I have the answer that will explain
why the Church focuses on one thing, salvation. It doesn't
really care a whole lot about all the other aspects
of the supernatural or the spiritual world. It really just focused.

(01:59:23):
Its goal is to make salvation possible in the most
efficient way that it can. So I think, to a
lot of theologians past and present, and much to the
dismay of people like you and me, Jessica, because I
agree with you, reincarnation is seen as superfluous. It just

(01:59:43):
gets in the way and makes it more confusing than
it otherwise needs to be. I as a I'm a
Catholic bishop now, but I left the church three times,
and in one of those times that I left, I
became a Buddhist for more than ten years. So I
embraced Eastern philosophy, which of course embraces reincarnation.

Speaker 3 (02:00:06):
And I don't have a conflict with it. I don't
see a conflict with it.

Speaker 2 (02:00:10):
I didn't just abandon those ideas just because I'm now
Catholic again.

Speaker 3 (02:00:15):
I don't.

Speaker 2 (02:00:17):
I find a harmonious balance between the two, and I
find that where one does a good job, the other
one fails, and where one fails, the other one does
a good job. So I do compliment if you let them.
If you let them, you have to be outside your
paradigm to do that, though, and that's the hard part
for people because they think they can only be one thing,
and I think we're too large to be put into

(02:00:39):
one box.

Speaker 3 (02:00:39):
We can't fit into one box, but we try. They try,
world tries to put us into one box.

Speaker 2 (02:00:44):
You can only be a conservative or a liberal, you
can only be a Christian or whatever else you might.

Speaker 4 (02:00:49):
Well, every established religion has something to give to the
whole Yes, the whole process.

Speaker 9 (02:00:54):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (02:00:55):
So I think that explains why should they No.

Speaker 2 (02:00:58):
I don't think they should have pressed it or or
or been afraid of it or moved around, because I
think there are people who did leave the church. Brandon
can speak to this. There are people who either left
the church or wanted to leave the church because it
was too suffocating and restrictive and there had too many
questions about things that were not being properly answered. And

(02:01:19):
they basically concluded that, well, there's no information for me here,
so I'm just going to move on.

Speaker 3 (02:01:23):
And then it leads to.

Speaker 6 (02:01:25):
We can also be wrong. We do need to have
a bit of humility ourselves. Of course, just because we're
not satisfied with an answer doesn't mean the answer isn't correct, right,
you know, Like we have to have the humility to go, Well,
you know, I'm only wrestling with my ability to hold
things intention to you know. You know, it's very hard
to remove our own anecdotal experience from you know, the whole.

(02:01:53):
Not that we should always do that, you know, and
when to do that and when not to do that.
This is about real life and and I me in
terms of reincarnation, I just think that going back to
those liminal spaces, we get glimpses through the veil and
and and we're allowed to. That's something God clearly intends
and wants to wants to. I mean, listen, I believe

(02:02:14):
that every single mass, that that bread and wine becomes
the body of blood of Christ. So I believe that
that that things can happen a strong interaction between those worlds, right.
But you know, and I think that can be interpreted
as as a sort of oh, well I've got a
past life. Well, well, it's that you've got a life
that pre existed, that exists and is to come, and

(02:02:38):
all of them exist within God and that and that's
the hot Like, that's solid Christian theology. By the way,
that all time is present to God and therefore and
all eternity, and so we get glimpses of periods of
our lives that we're in a sense we're living and
yet not living yet at the same time, and I'm

(02:02:58):
confusing myself.

Speaker 3 (02:02:59):
Now that's break out.

Speaker 2 (02:03:01):
It is a good thought. I want to give the
We're at the top of the hour. We need to
take our break, but I want to I want to
give Jessica. Do you I know that you said it
was late and you you are more than welcome to
stick around for the next hour or if you would
like to, uh, say say goodbye now? If if it's
if you know, it's up to you completely.

Speaker 6 (02:03:21):
I've really enjoyed talking to you.

Speaker 2 (02:03:24):
We'd love for you to stay. It's your choice. Jessica,
do you want to stick around for one more hour?

Speaker 3 (02:03:30):
Do you wanna?

Speaker 2 (02:03:31):
Do you wanna part ways now and then come back
another another episode?

Speaker 5 (02:03:36):
Another episode? I think I need to have some food.

Speaker 2 (02:03:40):
No worries, no worries at all before we go. Is
there anything you'd like to share as far as like
contact information. We've put the link to your book on
the on the chat room. Anything else that you'd like
to share before you go.

Speaker 5 (02:04:01):
I would like for people to read the Gnostic Scriptures,
which are pre Bible.

Speaker 6 (02:04:13):
You know.

Speaker 5 (02:04:14):
That's I plead with people. Please read those. These are
the genuine writings of Jesus, Mary Magdalene, Paul Thomas, Philip
John and their their house at the Coptic Museum in Cairo, Egypt,

(02:04:35):
and they should be included in theology.

Speaker 6 (02:04:41):
They are now. In fairness, I've got a copy in
my own library.

Speaker 5 (02:04:45):
Oh that's good, but that was your own individual wanting
to do it your own.

Speaker 8 (02:04:51):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (02:04:51):
We spoke about it a seminary. I mentioned the seminaries.
They're not secrets.

Speaker 2 (02:04:56):
Oh so now they're open, they're more open to it today. Yeah,
they're They're not going to preach it from the pulpit,
but they will. They will definitely. And in my first
day in seminary, I'll leave you with this. My first
day in seminary that we were it was philosophy class.
That was first my first class on the first day
of seminary. And when we walked in, they had an

(02:05:18):
atheist professor teaching it. And she came in and the
first thing she said is we are going to spend
this entire semester operating as though God does not exist.
If you cannot handle that, then you need to step
out of my class right now, because that's the foundation
by which we are going to explore these concepts. And

(02:05:39):
it was the most eye opening that we all had
to operate as though God didn't exist for the whole semester.
That was my first day in seminary. I didn't know
what I had gotten into. So they're a little more
open today. It's not like it used to be. But
there's a long way to go. But anyway, Jessica, I
just want to say it has been fantastic talking with you.
I can't wait to do this again. Thank you so
much for being on with us. And you know you

(02:06:00):
said you it was a little late to be inspirational.
I think you were very inspirational.

Speaker 3 (02:06:03):
So thanks again.

Speaker 4 (02:06:04):
Thank you, and Joy, thank you.

Speaker 3 (02:06:07):
Yes, nice video.

Speaker 5 (02:06:09):
You're beautiful people, all of you.

Speaker 3 (02:06:11):
Oh well, we feel the same. We feel the same
about you.

Speaker 2 (02:06:13):
We feel the same about you. Yeah, we'll talk, said Brenda.
Will be in touch, all right, everybody. We're going to
take our next break here. When we come back, we'll
digest some of this tonight and take some of your
questions too.

Speaker 3 (02:06:25):
Don't go away.

Speaker 9 (02:07:24):
Kill it.

Speaker 14 (02:07:36):
It Lily, by.

Speaker 12 (02:08:29):
The ba it is the thing.

Speaker 14 (02:10:42):
Sticking its like.

Speaker 8 (02:10:47):
It is.

Speaker 9 (02:10:48):
It's ens.

Speaker 8 (02:10:52):
Consuls, sassssssss.

Speaker 16 (02:12:04):
Short time, my shot in, I can't shot, turn my shot,
I can't start.

Speaker 17 (02:12:19):
Stars, stategis, stages, socials shows.

Speaker 12 (02:12:56):
It's.

Speaker 6 (02:13:08):
That s.

Speaker 2 (02:14:33):
Don Welcome back to the third and final hour of

(02:15:15):
Vestiges after Dark. Actually it's gonna be a little less
an hour because we went over on the last break,
but that's okay. It was a very good discussion with
our guests tonight, and we need to unpack some of this.
I see the questions coming in the chat, so we
will definitely get to some of those and kind of
talk about, you know, what we learned here tonight. If
you'd like to call into the show, you can do

(02:15:36):
that as well. Two seven five four four nineteen eighty three.
That's two O seven five four four nineteen eighty three.
It will take you on the air. If you have
any questions, comments, or stories you'd like to tell about
tonight's topic, don't go anywhere. We'll be right back after this.

Speaker 18 (02:16:29):
Boers, Okay, everybody, We have a lot to unpack there

(02:17:51):
that I think needs to be sort of thought about.

Speaker 17 (02:17:55):
You know.

Speaker 2 (02:17:57):
Where I find myself very much agreeing with our guest
tonight is that the Church, absolutely, through its adherence to paradigms,
through its ideological struggles to maintain a certain sense of order,
certain aspects of spirituality have been de emphasized, almost made

(02:18:18):
irrelevant at best, and at worst made forbidden. We talk
about that in this show all this time, all the time.
This is why this show exists, is why this church exists.
This is what esoteric Christianity really is. It is not
that it's a different kind of Christianity. It's just a
Christianity that's not going to be afraid of the rest

(02:18:38):
of everything else that's out there. Now, you know, when
you come to a church like the nicol and Catholic Church. Okay,
I'm not trying to pat myself on the back here
or anything like that because I preside over it. But
when you come to a church like this, it's already
assuming that you're coming here because you haven't found what
you were looking for anywhere else. Certainly, if you're just
looking for a Catholic experience, why would you come to

(02:19:01):
the Nicolaeing Catholic Church when there's all these Roman Catholic
churches that are everywhere and far more convenient than this one.
That's in this little tiny place in Atlanta, you know.
So you know, it's a special type of person that
finds us and needs us, and we serve that need,
which is largely what she was talking about tonight, because
there are people who do need to explore beyond the

(02:19:24):
box of what is considered acceptable or appropriate for a
Christian to study. But on the other side of the coin,
we can't lose ourselves in that either, Okay, and I
the church again, as I as I explained to her,
and as I'm going to emphasize again now, the church

(02:19:47):
can get a reputation for being controlling and suppressing and
having all this underhanded, you know, covert type of approach
towards you know, keeping people in the dark, and that's
just not the way it is. The Church's role has
always been to make salvation accessible to everyone, and that means,

(02:20:12):
unfortunately for those of you who are operating at a
much higher level, a higher intellectual level, a higher spiritual
spiritual level, you're going to have to come down quite
a few notches so that the people that aren't operating
at that level can get by too, because you know what,
they deserve salvation as much as you do. But there
are different types of approaches towards this. The Nikolin Church

(02:20:34):
takes a much higher approach, you know, Conventional Christianity takes
the mainstream approach. And both of them have their place.
Both of them are good. It's just I think in
some ways our guest tonight is coming from a generation
where it was much worse than it is today. It
has improved a great deal. Certainly, Let's face it, baby

(02:20:55):
boomers were the ones to leave, right, It wasn't, you know,
it wasn't all the generations that came up for the
baby Boomers were the ones that said, the hell with
the church, We're.

Speaker 9 (02:21:03):
Not going to do that.

Speaker 2 (02:21:03):
They didn't pass it on to all their kids. Some
of them did, a lot of them didn't. Most of
them did it. Most of them do not go to
church today and don't think they need to. All right,
that's just the way that it is. You've got a handful.
But but you know, the resurgence that we're seeing in
the church, they seem to be younger people now, which
is rarely kind.

Speaker 9 (02:21:19):
Of it is.

Speaker 4 (02:21:22):
Yeah, they've been left with nothing to Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:21:27):
They do, they do, and they have questions, and they
have questions about some of these things. That, you know,
you're conventional pastor is probably going to be like, oh no,
you can't talk about that, you know, So she makes
it goll the good points, some of the points I
don't agree with, and some of them are you know,
historically wrong. I'm going to I'm going to be fair.

(02:21:48):
I'm not trying to disparage her anyway. I think she
really is making, you know, is.

Speaker 3 (02:21:52):
Giving us a very honest, very sincere where she is
historically wrong. And I need to say this just for
the sake of the audience, is the Gnostic texts are
not older. Okay, they are too.

Speaker 2 (02:22:04):
They were written between the two hundreds and four hundreds AD. Okay,
the Gospels were written from the late fifties all the
way to the mid nineties AD, and the epistles of
Paul were you know, early fifties, maybe even the late forties,

(02:22:26):
so you're talking much earlier. So the primary reason the
Gnostic texts were not included in the canon is not
because they contained such subversive material that the Church can't
let anyone know it. That's da Vinci code crap, it
really is. The reason it wasn't included is because they
were so incomplete. They were a lot of them were

(02:22:49):
not really good quality writings, and almost all of them
were so new, so contemporary, that they were not the
canon had already, you know, what was already considered to
be established text was already very much so much more so,
much more ancient by this point that they were like,

(02:23:09):
we don't need all this new stuff. And then again
a lot of the new stuff bypassed the things that
were already considered to be the established oral tradition of
the Church that everyone takes for granted today. Because we
were not part of that oral tradition. We just have
the scriptures passed on. So it looks from a certain
point of view that all of this was suppressed. It

(02:23:31):
wasn't suppressed for the reasons that people tend to think
it is. As far as reincarnation, of course, there was
speculation in the ancient world about those kinds of things
that you know, the ancients didn't live in a vacuum.

Speaker 3 (02:23:44):
They got around.

Speaker 2 (02:23:46):
The Library of Alexandria contained. It was a meeting place
of people from all over. Certainly there were people from
the East that came over and shared ideas. The Gnostics
were not It wasn't a foreign concept to them. Uh,
you know, these these ideas. Did Judaism have a strong
influence on what became the established?

Speaker 3 (02:24:07):
Of course it did.

Speaker 2 (02:24:08):
And Judaism doesn't have a framework for reincarnation, barely had
a framework for for salvation.

Speaker 3 (02:24:15):
I mean it, you know, I mean it. It really
it was like your life is here, this is it.

Speaker 2 (02:24:20):
God will bless you here, and then it's kind of like,
you know, shadow world for the rest of your existence
after that. Yeah, exactly, So, I mean, you know, these
things were not really worked out in in some kind
of logical way. Are there people that that that have
written books that have tried to make it seem like
there was some subversive reasons that the you know, the church,

(02:24:42):
the Vaticans hiding secret documents down in the in the
in the secret archive somewhere that you know exposes all
this stuff.

Speaker 3 (02:24:50):
You know.

Speaker 2 (02:24:50):
Of course there's people that written that. Dan Brown's one
of them. Of course, it makes for good entertainment. It's
really dramatic, but it's not historically accurate.

Speaker 6 (02:25:00):
The conspiracy theories is, you know, they're completely unfalsifiable because
you know, I mean, look, we've just seen I mean,
I shouldn't say that technical troubles with technical troubles. If
I say the current one that's just been debunked, I
won't say the name, but a person who may or
may not have killed himself and might have had files.

(02:25:21):
You know, Actually we've not We've now got people who
who most people would say are incredibly trustworthy, people saying yeah,
there's nothing here now, Jamie, and I will go, I'm
sure that's right, you know, because I mean we've been,
we've been in investigations. The conspiracy theories are much more
interesting than reality, right. The problem is, though, once you

(02:25:44):
get two people who everyone was saying, oh, yeah, they'll
get to the truth of it, and they go, actually, no,
it's it's there's no conspiracy. Oh they're now part of
the conspiracy. This zoom out one more level.

Speaker 4 (02:25:54):
There are no no, no putting it to bed.

Speaker 6 (02:25:56):
Yeah no.

Speaker 10 (02:25:58):
So.

Speaker 6 (02:26:00):
And also she's from a particular context to like, I mean,
I really like her, by the way, so I came
across she's like my grandmother. I mean, she's actually younger
than my grandmother would be. But my grandmother was from
the West Coast of Ireland and they grow up in
you know, Ireland was a unique country to grow up
in in that era, she's actually not a baby boan
when she's older than a baby. And so you know,

(02:26:22):
and the church was, you know, Ireland separated from the
United Kingdom as a Catholic nation, so you know, Catholicism
and politics were have been unified in Ireland for well
longer than anyone's been alive. And so you know, and

(02:26:42):
where you get well, just like you get conspiracies within
governments today, that's the when the when the Church was
in fact the political realm. That's that's the source of that.
And and in Ireland and to a certain extent in
England too, because of the Reformation, continued for a long time.
And so the other thing is what what do people

(02:27:06):
think the role of the church on Sunday is like,
you know, well, I think university so people can study stuff,
you know.

Speaker 2 (02:27:14):
I think people think it's about control. And even though
control was certainly something that was done. I mean I
certainly heard my stories, you know, my father and who
is a baby boomer and and having you know, been
forced into the Catholic schools of that era with the
nuns and the brothers, you know, erasers being thrown at

(02:27:39):
students when they're not paying attention. Of course racers in
those days came with a little wooden piece. It wasn't
just a piece of rubbery.

Speaker 6 (02:27:47):
They did that at my non non Christian school too.

Speaker 2 (02:27:50):
So well, I mean, yeah, I mean, I guess, I mean,
it's it's things that happen. But the point, the point
I'm trying to make is there was a rigidity, an
extreme sort of of well just extremism that really was.

Speaker 6 (02:28:06):
Off because people were more rigid all together, including the church.
So you know, like of course church schools had corporal punishment.
Every school had corporal punishment. I mean, but I get it.
So I've got a lot of sympathy with her and
I and she's probably, well, she's wrestling with more than
one demon. I say that in the in the non

(02:28:26):
exist you know, in terms of a brain injury and
the history of Ireland and all that, you know, But
a lot of it is very postmodern thinking from from
you know, from what I can gather.

Speaker 3 (02:28:40):
And and also just.

Speaker 6 (02:28:43):
Because not every parish priest is brilliant at being someone
that disciples people doesn't mean that the model's flawed, like
because like you said, that's not their main The main
job is to offer the sacraments. And be a sign
of God's salvation where they are, you know, even if
they're craggy and useless. You know, that's the sort of.

Speaker 3 (02:29:01):
Well I blame the church function.

Speaker 2 (02:29:04):
I hate to say this because I always sound like
a broken record. I sound so you know, one sided
and nasty about it, but I'm really not trying to be.
It's just the fact is, I do blame the Protestant
information again for this, because they were the ones that
emphasized that church was just teaching and the mystical.

Speaker 3 (02:29:23):
Aspects were lost. They were okay, and then they'reied.

Speaker 2 (02:29:29):
They were, yeah, they were, And that's what you were
talking about, father as metaphysics was over overemphasized at one time. Yeah,
and then it went the other way.

Speaker 6 (02:29:39):
Rustyan thinking yes, humanism yes.

Speaker 2 (02:29:41):
And so the same thing we're seeing today in politics
is the same thing that went through the church, you know,
over the last two thousand years, of these extremes taking
over and influencing people's lives, and then of course conspiracies
get written about them, and people from later generations start
to read about this and specul late, and and then.

Speaker 3 (02:30:01):
You got more of it. So it is what it is.
But you know, I think what's what the important.

Speaker 2 (02:30:08):
Thing is to remember is that you know, there the
church is his role is. Yes, there's teaching involved, but
it's also an experience with God which you you will
not be able to have if you're putting up walls,
because you can't look beyond some of the dynamic there.
I did get a sense with our guests tonight that

(02:30:31):
you know, the there was there was a bit of
a feminist, uh sort of paradigm that that she was
working from, and and and she did not like some
of that patriarchal aspects of the church, which you know,
I mean that it's a valid point of view. I'm
not saying it's wrong, but I do think though away.

Speaker 6 (02:30:54):
From a different generation so less we're less affected by
I think that's true.

Speaker 2 (02:30:58):
I do because we, yes, we are. And I mean
I and I grew up, of course, only really knowing
the Vatican two Church, you know. And I'm older than
you are, you know, And and in the Vatican two Church,
you know, the church went out of the way to
bring women into ministry as much as they possibly could.

(02:31:18):
Could they ordain them priests, no, but they short of
everything else they they did, by the way, maybe yeah,
you didn't know where that was going. But I think
those are things that are important to unpack, and I'd
like to actually maybe talk about some of those points

(02:31:38):
at a future episode with her, if she would be willing,
because I'm not I'm not opposed to those viewpoints that
she has. I just think that they are somewhat them
yeah or no, I'm not afraid of them. I'm not
threatened by them either. U And I think, you know,
at least seventy five percent of what she shared I
found myself more than for agreeing with. There was just

(02:32:02):
a smaller amount where I think was not that she's wrong,
but somewhat I think influenced by the experience she had,
Like you have been talking about the Ireland experience and
of course the generational experience and all these things that
maybe sets up some barriers to realizing that, well, you know,

(02:32:23):
the church isn't really doing all these like conspiratorial or.

Speaker 6 (02:32:27):
Actually what happens is you end up seeing the sort
of magical things in the in the in the in
what you're researching it or in the alternative, shall we say, yeah,
of course. And what I was trying to do is
reawaken and look legitimately so, but this wasn't just a tactic.
This I believe this needs to be done of going no, no,
look at how amazing what orthodox Christianity is. Like we

(02:32:49):
believe were made in the image of likeness of God.
But that is actually that's a monumental idea, you know,
And just because we've heard it so often, Oh that's passe.
What's the novel thing? Like the human brain has has
a real especially you know, a brain like mine, has
a real tendency to go, what's the new thing? You know,
what's the new and interesting thing.

Speaker 7 (02:33:10):
The only thing I add to that, Father Chris is
nowadays and I can speak from experience and no parish
feelings or anything towards Protestantism or anyone who still is
in that area. But when you're taking the mystical aspect,
and the pendulum swings in the other direction. When we're
told we were made in the image of God, we're

(02:33:32):
told in a literalist way that we physically as humans
look like God. So, like I said, the pendulum went
from one direction where it's a little too metaphis.

Speaker 6 (02:33:47):
They said, we do though the incarnated God, we look
kind of like him, right, you know, but but I
know what he's saying. I get what he said. But
what I'm saying is that is that, you know, there's
a tendency. You know, most people would rather watch a
new sequel than watch the same film over and over again.
And so, you know, I mean, I'm sure all of

(02:34:09):
us have our favorite films you'd like to watch over
and over again. But and that's in a sense, that's
the call of the church is to tell the same
story over and over again, but to do it well,
because it's the ultimate true story. Is to do it
in a way that engages and enchants anew. And I
think so I could be critical of the way the

(02:34:32):
church is operated in not being so inspired or re
enchanted in each generation to go, gosh, this is an
amazing story. But like I say, this is where this
isn't a critique of her at all, because we did
not grow up in that same millieu. I grew up
in an environment where the default was that you didn't

(02:34:52):
go to church, that no one went to church, no
one you knew went to church. And so in a way,
I suppose all thoughts, Christianity was the novel thing for
me to learn, you know, and I'm using orthodox with
a with a small oh, I'm talking about mainstream Christianity,
and so uh yeah, we're speaking of different kind of times.

Speaker 2 (02:35:16):
Really, you know, perhaps what would have been a better
interpretation of being made in the image of God would
have been to say, we're made in God's nature. That's
the that's what it really is saying. Because see, the
ancient understanding of an image was that. But we don't
think of it that when we think of an image
now as like almost like a statue.

Speaker 3 (02:35:35):
Or work of art or a picture pure, that's not
what it means. That's not what it means.

Speaker 2 (02:35:41):
It means the nature because be in the ancient world
and image had the nature of something it was. This
is the foundation to sympathetic magic and witchcraft. By the
way how it works is that by making an effigy
you it takes on the nature of your target. Voodoo
dolls take on the nature of the target. So this

(02:36:01):
is where it comes from. It comes from this agent understanding.
But we don't really have that understanding today.

Speaker 6 (02:36:06):
Well, you might say we're made with the imagination of God.
You could say that we shares, we share God's imagination. Yes,
that's because that's the source of creation, right, that you
that you you formulate some kind of image in your mind,
that that you then instantiate in time and space. That
that that's how creation takes place.

Speaker 3 (02:36:26):
Now, now, one thing, that's why we're like God.

Speaker 10 (02:36:28):
Now.

Speaker 2 (02:36:29):
One thing I did very strongly disagree with with our
guests tonight that I didn't have really time to get
into with her, and I wasn't you know, I'll bring
people on this show to argue with them. I bring
them on to hear their point of view and to
have to have honest discussion and to be as as
as welcoming as I possibly can. If it gets instructive,

(02:36:51):
then that's when I will sometimes step in and kind
of give a little bit of correction here and there
when necessary. But overall, I, you know, I'm very open
to what people say. But the one, the one area
that I did not agree with is this idea that
that that being made in God's image does not include

(02:37:14):
the physical. And this is a mistake that the New
Age and theosophical groups have pushed in the modern era.
And I fear some of the books she's been reading
are of that genre of that that that part of
the bookstore where the New Age books are the llew Ellens,
and yes, yes, the Llewellen books and all that. Not

(02:37:36):
all Llewellen books are bad, but if there's gonna be
a bad one, it's gonna be should be a Llewellen book, unfortunately.

Speaker 6 (02:37:43):
But you know, we're body affirming in this church.

Speaker 2 (02:37:46):
Yes, the body is part of the divine nature. That
doesn't mean God looks like us or looks like anything.
That's not really part of God's reality to look like something,
it's not something that is a God problem. It's a
it's a human issue. But that doesn't mean that the
physical nature is. And it doesn't surprise me that she

(02:38:08):
would take that point of view because she does have
such a love of gnosticism.

Speaker 3 (02:38:12):
Which was very much body hating.

Speaker 6 (02:38:15):
You know, it's biggest traumatic injury. You might want to
you might be body hating.

Speaker 2 (02:38:20):
You might I mean, yeah, I mean you might because
I mean, let's face it, physicality does suck. I don't
know about it does I mean I like heating, I
like eating, but I don't like going to the bathroom.

Speaker 4 (02:38:31):
Right let me tell you, yeah, you don't want to
shed your body real quick that the whole get hell.

Speaker 2 (02:38:39):
Yeah, yeah, I can, I can, I can imagine, you know,
I mean, I mean even just normal functioning in that
department is not very pleasant.

Speaker 4 (02:38:50):
Getting older and then spreading us on top of it.

Speaker 2 (02:38:52):
I mean, I remember my mother, you know, having horrible
you know, menstrual cramps that made her scream. It was horrible.
It was horrifying to watch as a child, you know.
And it's like physicality, and she would she would scream
at the top of her cramping was so bad. And
and it's like, you know, physicality does suck. I mean,
let's face it, all of our problems are the result

(02:39:15):
that were pretty fragile, and that's because we're physical beings.
But that doesn't mean it's not divine. It's that's the
fallen nature aspect that we have to understand.

Speaker 6 (02:39:24):
That otherwise God would not have taken on flesh. Of
course gods and resurrected the body. You know. Yes, it's
really important, just just like and of course these things
are connected, just like Protestants get caught up on Jesus
died for my sins, which is true. It is true.

(02:39:45):
Did everybody hear me say that?

Speaker 3 (02:39:47):
That is true?

Speaker 6 (02:39:49):
But it's not the end of the story, because yeah,
that makes sense of the cross. It makes no sense
of the resurrection. So because the question, yeah, God's dive
your sins, but actually has now come back in the
flesh with his the wounds you inflicted on him, and
you did and I did answer and greet you with peace. So,
in other words, the restoration of humanity or or you know,

(02:40:11):
through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. The Gnostics again, the
Gnostics would love the cross a bit more of a
problem with the resurrection, well, because that is, in fact
the affirmation of the modis and not of the body.
Evil things to be escaped.

Speaker 2 (02:40:26):
I mean, because I know that people that get into
that type of thinking where you know, it's all a
spiritual reality. I hate by the way, let let's be known.
I think Father Chris will agree with this, but I
hate the the modern day New Age axiom that says
you're a spiritual being having a physical experience.

Speaker 3 (02:40:46):
That is bullshit.

Speaker 6 (02:40:46):
It's garbage.

Speaker 3 (02:40:47):
It's garbage, it's bullshit, it's bullshit.

Speaker 6 (02:40:50):
I just say, could you just draw me the line
between the two?

Speaker 3 (02:40:52):
Yeah, well, there you go, there you go.

Speaker 6 (02:40:55):
Wait, I'm still waiting.

Speaker 2 (02:40:57):
You know, it's all spiritual existence. There's this there's a
physical spirituality.

Speaker 6 (02:41:02):
By stamping on you on your thumb, you know, you
go there, you go.

Speaker 9 (02:41:10):
It.

Speaker 6 (02:41:10):
Yeah, so we'll see how your spirituality is affected by that.

Speaker 3 (02:41:13):
That's right.

Speaker 2 (02:41:13):
But you know, the whole point of Saint Thomas and
and him doubting that that the resurrection occurred and saying,
I won't believe it until I put my fingers through
the nail marks and Jesus appears and lets him do it.
That's to affirm definitively that it is the same body.
It wasn't a ghost, even though it could do ghost

(02:41:36):
like things like pastor walls and sometimes even appear in
a way that they didn't even recognize him until he
said something a certain way. So clearly the resurrected body
is is is not with the same limitations that we
typically equate to human bodies. Now, however, that doesn't mean
it wasn't the same one because it was the nail marks.
And now, of course these theosophists would say, oh well

(02:42:00):
it was yeah, he could eat this, right, he could
eat But you know, the theoscue would probably argue that,
oh well that was changed because they you know, they
wanted they had an agenda they'll make stuff up like that,
and and of course, you know, come on, where are
you getting this from? You know this is just nonsense,
you know, because that's what's in there. And you can
add things and say, well it shouldn't have been there. Okay,

(02:42:21):
well then prove that. But the burdener proof is on you.
The fact is that's part of the ancient doctor.

Speaker 3 (02:42:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (02:42:26):
Yes, yeah, that's exactly. The burden proof is on you.
You want to say that, right, who's the evidence?

Speaker 3 (02:42:32):
Because two thousand years this is what it's been.

Speaker 2 (02:42:34):
So you're telling me two thousand years later that it's wrong, Well,
you're gonna have to come up with some pretty significant
proof to say.

Speaker 3 (02:42:40):
Why show me the work? Yeah, Brandon, you had something
to say. I'm sorry.

Speaker 7 (02:42:45):
Yeah, So we have a question up thread, and it's
kind of what not like she had meant that just
had mentioned that I'd never heard of. But the question
comes from Paul up Jesus. Yeah, yes, I've never.

Speaker 3 (02:42:58):
Heard of that, the Black Jesus.

Speaker 4 (02:43:01):
I've watched a lot of History Channel and I don't
remember it.

Speaker 2 (02:43:06):
I know of a lot of things that are referred
to that way. I don't think they're all the same thing, though,
I remember I had a good friend in in high
school who I reconnected with on social media many many
years later, a black, a black man, and at the

(02:43:27):
time that I knew him in high school, you know,
he was just basically a as far as I knew,
a regular Baptist Christian, you know, nothing remarkable about his
faith then, just what it was. I'm not sure he
was all that practicing, but.

Speaker 3 (02:43:42):
It just wasn't. This was a Baptist school, you know, so,
I mean, it was what it was.

Speaker 2 (02:43:46):
But he obviously he went to military, you know, he
went into the military and came out, you know, and
having been exposed to the world, his views changed, and
I think he was starting to sort of be I'm
sympathetic to Islam. If I'm not mistaken, if I remember correctly,
I could be wrong. I could be mixing him with
someone else. But he was looking at something else. What

(02:44:07):
Christianity was not his his his his forte that much anymore.
And knowing that I had become, you know, a priest
and subsequently a bishop, he was kind of curious about.

Speaker 3 (02:44:18):
It, but also maybe a little bit critical, you know,
and he would.

Speaker 2 (02:44:20):
Come on in some of the discussions I would present
this is way before ghost adventures and everything. So you know,
my my, my Facebook feed was was pretty much just
a small circle of people. And so I would put
you know, different theological ideas, and people that I had
connected with over the years would come in and comment,

(02:44:41):
and he would comment on something. And I remember you
got into the discussion about the need about Jesus, and
one of the things that bothered him was that he
firmly believed that Jesus was a what he would term
a person of color, you know, being Semitic and all,
but even going as far as to say that it
was in his mind. I don't agree with this, but

(02:45:01):
in his mind it was very likely that Jesus was
actually from Africa.

Speaker 3 (02:45:05):
I guess that Egyptian connection or whatever. I don't know.
And uh, and you know, it's like, but you know,
all your all, all your images are of this white man.
So what's the story with that?

Speaker 2 (02:45:18):
And I said, not my images, And I went and
I took pictures of all my icons, and I have
a significant number of Ethiopian uh Orthodox icons. And of course,
just as it is in in in in when in Europe,
you know, people put present Jesus in an image that's

(02:45:39):
relatable to them. So all my Ethiopian Orthodox images are
of a very black Jesus and uh.

Speaker 6 (02:45:46):
Which is perfectly sound because they're wrong with that. But
what's important about Jesus is he became a human being. Yes,
not what race he was, right, I mean, right, yeah, anyway,
So I.

Speaker 3 (02:45:57):
Mean, so I showed him this.

Speaker 9 (02:45:58):
He was shocked.

Speaker 2 (02:45:59):
He couldn't believe it that I had all this on
my wall. He said, well, why do you have that?
I said, because because it's beautiful. Why why didn't I
have that? But it's like your And I told him,
I said, you're you're your impressions are wrong. You're you're
just looking at Jesus through the lens of a very
narrow lens of.

Speaker 6 (02:46:15):
The Western postdernity.

Speaker 3 (02:46:17):
Yes, it really is.

Speaker 2 (02:46:19):
These were not issues that really were a thing, and
you know, people understood that kind of stuff. But I mean,
you have Jesus in all different colors, and you know what, uh,
you know, Prenia. See Christianity made its way way east.

Speaker 3 (02:46:35):
I forget the name of the.

Speaker 2 (02:46:36):
Group that did this, but there is India right right,
But there is a pre Nissen Christian community in the
what is now to bet yea and of course that.

Speaker 6 (02:46:50):
Was the that was the real silk correct, correct, from
India to China.

Speaker 2 (02:46:54):
And when you look at their iconography, Jesus looks Asian.
He's got an Asian look, and you know what, that's
how it works. So naturally, when you go to Europe,
you're going to see a white Jesus. The irony of
it is, if I'm not mistaken, Father, correct me if
I'm wrong. But wasn't the the the quintessential image of

(02:47:16):
Jesus that we have in the West, the son of
one of the Borges? The borg I mean, I think
it was one of his sons, right, yeah.

Speaker 6 (02:47:24):
I forget it again.

Speaker 2 (02:47:33):
But it's like the image we have of Jesus is
really not a very good man. I find it kind
of this is God laughing at us, I can guarantee you.

Speaker 4 (02:47:42):
Paula makes a point because I heard what Paula heard it.
Miss Jessica made it sound as if it was a
separate person that was found in after that was doing
it sound like I don't know anything about that. That's
a legend I've never heard.

Speaker 3 (02:47:55):
I don't know anything about that.

Speaker 6 (02:47:57):
And that's the whole point of again, go about gospels,
what sets Jesus apart is not that he performs miracles.
There were lots of miracle performers as there are today.
That didn't set him apart. What set him apart was
his teaching. Was the fact that he was declaring forgiveness
of sins, which is what God him crucified, and that

(02:48:18):
he rose from the dead. That's what set him apart.
So and also that he fulfilled you know, hundreds of
prophecies from the Old Testament, which no of the figure
in the history as ever has ever fulfilled. So that
you know, him being a miracle worker didn't set him apart.
Him being a good teacher didn't set him apart. Him
being a good human being didn't set him apart. None
of those things would be reason would be justification for

(02:48:40):
people worshiping Jesus Christ. In fact, if he did it
for any for those three reasons, either of those three
reasons alone or even together, that would be an evil
thing to do, because that'd be false worship. We worship
Jesus Christ because we believe his claim that he's God
incarnate and that he rose from the dead.

Speaker 3 (02:49:00):
Yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 16 (02:49:00):
I know.

Speaker 2 (02:49:01):
The only thing I know about black Jesus is of course,
you know, the art, the art coming out of some
of the Yeah, I don't know anything about some guy
that was called this. Now as is asking a question
related to this, I just wanted to quickly answer them
for research. He said, well, what race was Jesus? Yes,
of course he was. You know, this is a Jewish man.

(02:49:22):
Armic was his language, you know, and.

Speaker 6 (02:49:27):
He did have to be Jewish in fairness, I mean
when I said, it doesn't matter, yeah, it doesn't matter
that he was, that he was an Israelite.

Speaker 2 (02:49:34):
Well, yeah, because if you're looking at if you're looking
at understanding the Selvas, the Salvafic history that brings us
to how how God reveals himself to us, then you
have to understand that it would of course go through
this tradition because the first people to ever have that

(02:49:55):
type of intimacy with with God was the Israelites.

Speaker 9 (02:49:59):
That you know.

Speaker 6 (02:50:00):
And can I can I say that the obsession with
skin color, the skin color of Jesus, I think is
a really American problem because Americans are obsessed with skin
color because of your particular history. Europeans just aren't, because
we have dark skinned Europeans and light skinned Europeans we
don't care. It doesn't matter to us, is it? Because obviously,

(02:50:24):
I mean I listen to a lot of American commentary
because I'm interested in it, you know, and I love
your country. But the yeah, I mean, the obsession with
skin color is it's something to be whole. It's something
that actually a lot of Europeans don't really get, like,
you know, understand.

Speaker 2 (02:50:48):
We don't get it either, you know, we're kind of
forced into it by virtue of the fact that it's
always thrown on our face and then we get accused
of being colorblind if we don't acknowledge it. So it's
like if we're doing we're damned if we don't. But
the average American doesn't give a ship, you know. And
and racism as far as as as far as.

Speaker 6 (02:51:08):
It's penetrated your politics very deeply because of historicalers.

Speaker 3 (02:51:12):
Well, because it's it's because it's it's uh, it's it's
it's a tactic.

Speaker 4 (02:51:17):
Yeah, it's a tactic because it's a it's an emotional tactic.

Speaker 6 (02:51:20):
Yeah, it's a weapon.

Speaker 3 (02:51:23):
It's a weapon. And that's exactly right.

Speaker 2 (02:51:25):
But I mean, racism, you know, I I would be one,
and I know a lot of people disagree with me
on this, but racism as it is authentically defined is
something that's very rare. I think what we're what we're
dealing with is is is essentially I think politic politicalization.

(02:51:45):
It's yes, and the fatigue that comes with that. So
now if you are just not going to buy into
that bullshit, you get accused of being a racist for
just being like, I'm done with this, this is not
bar in my life. Okay, But then you get acused
of being like, you know, a being being privileged, white privileged.

Speaker 3 (02:52:05):
You know, it's.

Speaker 6 (02:52:08):
Can I also, in the name of defending reputations, state
categorically that I don't believe a region was was a
believer in reincarnation.

Speaker 3 (02:52:18):
Speculation.

Speaker 6 (02:52:19):
Origin wrote about the pre existence of souls. Yes, okay,
so that his speculation souls existing before they were put.

Speaker 2 (02:52:29):
In Theosophus took what he said and ran with it.
I'd have to check to even say the part that
she quoted. I'm not entirely sure all of that was
actually Origin. I think some of that was an embellishment.

Speaker 3 (02:52:41):
I could be wrong on that.

Speaker 2 (02:52:42):
I don't want to say it either way, but I
did a lot of research back in my earlier years
about origin. It's been a long time. I'd have to
go back and try to find some of those notes.
But it was very well, I think, argued and refuted,
and the arguments were coming from Theosophis, not Christians. So

(02:53:05):
I think again it was Madame Levatsky looking for ways
to try to integrate her ideas into the Church. And
I mean, let's face it, most of the New Age
crap that got, you know, that the Church gets accused
of or just what's up, it came from her Levatski,
you know. And and the whole theosophical movement, which you

(02:53:29):
know became the spiritualist movement, which became New Age and
that's where you.

Speaker 3 (02:53:35):
Get the mediums.

Speaker 19 (02:53:35):
Now.

Speaker 2 (02:53:36):
Now today they don't call themselves spiritualists, don't call themselves theosophus.
I mean there is this the Theosophical Society still exists,
but you know, people don't say, oh, I'm a theosophist.
I mean it's they won't even say I'm New Age path,
I'm an intuitive, you know, I'm a psychic. Even psychic's
starting to wane now. They don't even like using that

(02:53:57):
term anymore.

Speaker 3 (02:54:00):
Changing it up, it keeps changing it up.

Speaker 2 (02:54:01):
Because it gets tired, people get it gets fatigued, and
they want to stay relevant in a title. It is
just another title, So it is what it is. A
says Bishop, you've touched up on reincarnation. I think you've said,
if we don't achieve permanence, our aggregates are placed elsewhere. Yes,
that is how it is understood within Buddhism, and I

(02:54:24):
do maintain that that particular metaphysical principle that Buddhism does
so well to elaborate on is an accurate model to
utilize in understanding this type of thing. Now, the Church
isn't going to talk about it for the reasons that
I stated in the last hour. It doesn't apply to
salvation really well. It does in a way, but it

(02:54:48):
confuses the issue, so it's best to just not deal
with it at all. So the church doesn't really have
a framework for it doesn't need one. It's got something else,
so it works with its model. But the reality of
it is is is in Buddhism, not theosophy, not the
New Age, not the stuff that gets talked a lot
about today where people think that you make a soul contract,

(02:55:10):
you choose your parents, you choose your lifestyle. You know,
if you suffered some kind of horrible thing, then that's
because you needed that lesson. I don't subscribe to any
of that bullshit, and neither do the Buddhists. Buddhists see
it as the working of karma. Okay, and karma does
not mean what again people think it means. It doesn't

(02:55:32):
mean like, if you do something bad, then something bad.

Speaker 3 (02:55:34):
Happens to you.

Speaker 2 (02:55:35):
Do something good, something good happens to you. That's just
a consequence of how karma works. It's basically for every
it's a metaphysical in response to For every action, there's
an equal and opposite reaction. It's basically just a type
of thermodynamic law that is built into the metaphysics of Buddhism.
But Buddhist reincarnation in Buddhism operates on this basic principle.

Speaker 3 (02:56:00):
Made up of the aggregates. That was one of our
questions in the first hour.

Speaker 2 (02:56:03):
You're made up of aggregates, okay, countless different types of
these aggregates. And as you build, as you work towards
enlightenment in Buddhism, as you work towards and this is
done by producing karma that is beneficial karma. We would
call that in the Church the cultivation of grace. Okay,

(02:56:26):
So grace and karma are polar sides. It's two sides
of the same coin, just different religions talking about the
same thing two different ways.

Speaker 3 (02:56:34):
Okay, So.

Speaker 2 (02:56:36):
You cultivate this, this karma that works towards the development
of non attachment. So basically what causes us to become
impermanent is attaching to the things of impermanence. And because
everything in entropy, the fallen world for a Christian, the

(02:56:56):
world of the Maya for the for the Buddhists. Same again,
two sides of the same coin, different words for the
same exact principle. In in Buddhism, the way that this
that we overcome this is by cultivating an awareness by
removing those attachments. As we do that we form permanence.

(02:57:18):
Those aggregates start to stick together. Now, if we attain
to enlightenment, then we pass into what is Buddhists. In
Buddhism is known as perry nirvana, which is the ultimate bliss,
which is the ultimate extinguishing. Nirvana literally means extinguishing the
extinguishing of what suffering, Okay, suffering, which is the self,
because identity is the biggest attachment of all. Don't believe me, Well,

(02:57:43):
what's identity politics all about? It's all about ego, right,
So we want to not eliminate the ego, no longer
be ruled by it. And the ego is supposed to
be used within the lifetime that you have, but not
to become the source of your entire existence, which is
what people tend to do. So the way that we
overcome this is by non attachment. And if we do

(02:58:07):
this successfully, then what that means is we develop a
state of permanence. In Buddhism, it's called the parinirvana. It's
it's it's it's it's it's it's it's passing into into
into into bliss, into the escaping the wheel of some sorrow.
In Christianity, it's it's eternal life, it's salvation, it's going
to heaven again. The same stuff just told and explained

(02:58:32):
completely different ways. And it looks so foreign that we
think that these religions are not saying the same thing.
They are saying the exactly the same thing. Now their
approaches are somewhat different. But even then, when you talk
about what where's Jesus and Buddhism. Well, I can tell
you where he is Buddha nature, but it doesn't classify
this as some kind of incarnation because the incarnation is

(02:58:55):
in the Buddhas.

Speaker 3 (02:58:57):
That have come before. It's right now we of the
Dali Lama.

Speaker 2 (02:59:01):
That's the incarnation of Olive kadish Vera, which is one
of the Buddhas.

Speaker 9 (02:59:05):
Uh that of.

Speaker 2 (02:59:06):
Compassion that helps aid his people. That's that's it's it's
a christ concept. It's just done in a very different
way because they didn't have the Judeo Christian influence. Okay,
but they could look at that and understand it. They
really could, if they could get past their own paradigms,
which they do. They themselves have too. But that's really

(02:59:26):
what what what what reincarnation is. So you might say, well,
how does that.

Speaker 3 (02:59:30):
Apply to a to a Christian? How how are we
supposed to do that as a Christian?

Speaker 2 (02:59:34):
I'm going way over time here, but I'm gonna I'm
gonna do that for just a second here. How does
that apply to a Christian? Well, as a Christian, we're
told that we get one life right and if you
don't get it right, you go to hell.

Speaker 3 (02:59:45):
If you get it right, you go to heaven.

Speaker 2 (02:59:48):
That's all well and good, but the reality is that
those are those are conditional situations that are based upon
our nature. And what we do with grace as a
Christian in Buddhism is what you do with karma. Same thing, okay,
just a very different way of explaining the same principle.
If we are too achieved to some sense of permanence, though,

(03:00:11):
which is done through non attachment, then those aggregates stay cohesive.
If enough of them stay cohesive, then yes, you enter
eternal life. You do it has done through the help
of that grace and Christianity. We attach that we know
where it comes from. We'd say it's Christ. Buddhism they
don't have Christ, so they have different ways of explaining

(03:00:33):
where it comes from, which are more ethereal. But I
would say it comes from Christ there too. I think
Christ is well prepared to meet us wherever we're at,
in whatever religion we're at, and it doesn't have to
be called Jesus Christ for it to be Jesus, you know,
And I think the Catechism agrees with me, and we
can talk about that at another time. But that's how

(03:00:54):
He will meet you where you are so, but I
leave you there.

Speaker 3 (03:00:59):
That's right.

Speaker 2 (03:01:00):
You know what happens if you don't make permanence, Well,
I think those aggregates just get reabsorbed and become someone else.

Speaker 3 (03:01:05):
But it's not you anymore. Your experiences might.

Speaker 2 (03:01:08):
Be there, and you might a new person might take
those aggregates that you once had and be formed of
them and have memories that came from something that you experienced,
but it's not you in this new body. That's Buddhist reincarnation.
That's not what they teach you in Theosophy though or
the New Age. Oh god, I could go on for
this for hours, but anyway, separate show. And you know what,

(03:01:30):
in August nineteenth, we have our next show, our second
summer special, and it's open lines, open topics. If you
guys want to go into more detail about this, we'll
have three more hours to do it. Hopefully we'll get
this simulcasting thing worked out. It looks like Facebook was
the culprit because once Facebook died, we had no issues
the whole show. So it's something going on with Facebook

(03:01:50):
interacting with the feed, changing our bit rate, and it
was causing problems with you two. I don't know how
to fix that. I'm going to have to figure that out.
But anyway, thank you everybody, Thank you Father, Chris and Brandon,
thank you Jamie. Thanks to our guests. What a wonderful
guest tonight. Really enjoyed everything she shared with us, and
we'd like to have her back on. But yeah, we'll

(03:02:12):
see you in the month, Okay, August nineteenth, eight pm
Eastern or another show. Until then, I'll see you out
there in the ether. God bless everyone.

Speaker 19 (03:03:30):
This is the best, is the bust is the best,
is the best, is the is thegest.

Speaker 12 (03:03:46):
The song is the best.

Speaker 19 (03:03:48):
Song is the best

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