Go to Hell! Eternal Torture or Annihilation? With Bishop Bryan Ouellette, SOSM

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:32):
And as to act as.

Speaker 2 (01:45):
Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, whichever the case may be,
for all of you listening out there across the crazy
planet Earth. Welcome to Vestiges after Dark, and I am

(02:07):
your host, Bishop Brian will let come into you lie
from the deep woods of western Georgia on this September thirtieth,
twenty twenty five. Well, you've heard about it, this place
called hell, and tonight we're going to go headfirst into

(02:29):
that pit. We're going to explore the essence of it
from a theological vantage point, but more importantly, what exactly
is it? Are we talking at about a place of
permanent torture? Or do we just get wiped out? That's
tonight on Vestiges after Dark. Well, hello, everybody, welcome to

(03:55):
another edition of Vestiges after Dark. Once again, I am
your host, Bishop Brian. Well let here with my co
host Jamie Wolf.

Speaker 3 (04:01):
Good evening, everybody.

Speaker 2 (04:02):
And we're here to talk to you about the concept
of hell. And it is an easy one to discuss,
but a very difficult one to understand. And you'll see
tonight that's going to be pretty much in our two
and three. I'll try to keep it to just hour two,
so that we have our three to really kind of

(04:24):
unpack it and ask answer your questions. But I can't
make any promises because you know how these lectures go,
and I give be a little bit on the long
winded side when it comes to theology. So we'll see
how it goes, Okay. I'll do my best to keep
it within reason.

Speaker 3 (04:40):
I'm a student tonight, I'm not going to be saying much.

Speaker 2 (04:41):
Oh, you're not gonna say much. Well, I'm sure you
have some questions at the end though, probably. Yeah. I
want to also give a shout out to the Riverboat Gambler.
He's out there tonight. Yeah, welcome back to the show.
And also, if you haven't done so already, please go
to either on iPhone or Android, go and download his

(05:02):
app from the app store. It's called The Riverboat Gambler
and it has I think it's up to seventy two games,
which is always expanding. These are the same games you'll
find in the casino, and they're mathematically set up to
operate exactly using the same odds that you would get

(05:23):
in the casino, allowing you to practice these games before
you go and risk actual money doing them. Okay, it's
a wonderful way to learn a game that you might
have seen in the casino but have never had the
opportunity to play. And you know, I do this as
I don't say this because he gives me any money.

(05:44):
This is not an ad in that sense. I really
love this game and I want to see it really
grow and succeed. And I'm a big part of it
because a lot of the games were my suggestions. So
he actually, you know, listens, he's one of the few
developers out there that actually cares about the people that

(06:04):
that use his game. And uh, you know, I'm I'm
a sucker for Asian gambling games. I love them, you know. Yeah,
I mean if I if they have that's what I play.
You know, I don't not really much of a blackjack
or roulette player. I mean I'll do it, but I
don't play them very long. If I go when I
when I go to Las Vegas, when I go to
the casino, it is Pigo tiles. It's a face up pigo.

(06:30):
And well that's about all we get as far as
the Asian games here in the United States and Macau
it would be a different story. There's this wonderful game
called fantand that you can't really find in the US,
I don't think, but he's even putting that in for me,
and it was it was a little bit convincing. It
took a few years, but it's coming. It's going. So
you want to get this game. Learn about these games

(06:53):
before you go and risk money so that you can
understand how they play. Remember, gambling should be fun. It's
not about making money. It's just about entertainment. And honestly,
the best attitude you can have when you go to
a casino is to say, what is entertainment worth to
you tonight? If it's say, you know, it's like I
want to go and have a good time, and five
hundred dollars sounds a good good time. Well, you know

(07:14):
what if you take five hundred dollars to the casino
and you lose it, that was your entertainment cost right there.
You know, never go beyond whatever that limit is that
you set and you'll be fine. But you know what
chances are, if you play riverboat Gambler, you'll come out
maybe even ahead, or at least break even. I haven't
walked away from a casino a loser in a very

(07:34):
long time, and I do. I will say part of
it is because of Riverboat Gambler's App, because this app
allows me to hone my skills without risking real money.
I can play it when I'm just sitting, you know,
down having a drink at night, watching TV, and you know,
play a few hands here and there, and I keep
my mind sharp on the game. So when I go
to the casino, you know, I know the right moves

(07:57):
and I know what to expect, and it's a wonderful
way to play the game. But yeah, I really he started.
Understand he only built this game for to be one
game that he likes that he practices, and then it
just grew into seventy two now, and I know I

(08:17):
was responsible for a lot of it, but you know what,
he's the one that does all the work. I just
make it the suggestions. You know, He's the one that
does all the work. Anyway, I'm glad to have him
with us tonight, and I hope you guys go and
download that app if you if you're really into every
game is there, honestly, and if it's not there, you know,
let me know and I'll suggest it or let him know.

(08:39):
He's very responsive and he'll eventually put it in. He's
got a long log of things and they you know,
he gets him in there, he really does. And I think,
you know, the app is the best out there of
its kind. It really is. Okay, joining us from the
great country of Australia, we have Father Chris Gates for
tonight's show. How are you doing tonight, father, Good morning?

Speaker 4 (09:01):
Yeah, I'm good. Yeah, yeah, thanks, good morning.

Speaker 5 (09:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (09:05):
Sun's out today. You can't see a cloud in the sky.
So sorry, this is me being very English and talking
about the weather, but it does. I mean, it's amazing here.
Like in England, you never really know where one season's
over the next one starts.

Speaker 4 (09:21):
But here it feels like it's just overnight.

Speaker 6 (09:23):
You know, you wake up in the morning, the cold
wind is now a warm wind and that's that.

Speaker 4 (09:27):
So this is my favorite.

Speaker 6 (09:30):
These are amongst my two favorite times of the year
the spring in the autumn because it's warm without being
for sorry, one hundred and fifteen degrees.

Speaker 2 (09:40):
Yeah, I'm kind of with you on that. I mean,
I you know, I mean I like every season. I
really do.

Speaker 4 (09:47):
Me too.

Speaker 2 (09:48):
I don't really like it when it's too hot and humid.
I can deal with heat, and I can deal with humidity.
I just don't like those two things together.

Speaker 4 (09:58):
It's easier to deal with than humid. See, that's for sure.

Speaker 2 (10:00):
It definitely is. It definitely is, And you know I
can deal with Like when I lived in Vegas and
it was like one hundred and fifteen degrees on some
summer days.

Speaker 4 (10:08):
I mean, you know, but the day I went I
went to the zax Museum when it was it must
have been one hundred and ten.

Speaker 2 (10:15):
But it probably didn't feel that bad. I mean, it
probably didn't feel that bad though. Dry it's dry and
it I mean people like think it's like a cliche
now to even say, well, it's a dry heat, but
it's true.

Speaker 3 (10:26):
I just remember you're hydrating every step you take.

Speaker 2 (10:28):
That's the only thing is that you have to remember
that you need to consume probably three times the amount
of water that you're probably accustomed to doing. Otherwise you're
going to get to.

Speaker 4 (10:37):
Go into that Keys to going to that you know,
the porn stars, Oh yeah, yeah, yeah yeah yeah, keys
are going there.

Speaker 6 (10:45):
And as you queued, all of a sudden, a sprinkler
system comes on outside to cool you.

Speaker 4 (10:50):
Down in the queue. And I thought that's quite cool.

Speaker 2 (10:55):
Yeah, they've got they've got it all worked out out there,
you know. But oh yeah, Vegas is it the town
used to be. I think it was a lot better
twenty years ago, maybe even forty years ago, believe that.
But it's still fun. You can there's a lot of
fun that can be had there, and you know, I
miss it. We'll be going back in a few months,
you know, just to do.

Speaker 6 (11:17):
In terms of embracing the cold. I we are going
back to England for Christmas.

Speaker 2 (11:24):
That's what you need for December, Yeah, you need, you
need a property.

Speaker 4 (11:27):
I feel like Christmas, yeah.

Speaker 6 (11:29):
I mean my wife's obviously from the Southern Hemisphere and
so Christmas for her is like on the beach eating
prawns with you know, flip flops on. But for me
seem freezing cold in a pub with a fire and
you know, a non cold beer.

Speaker 2 (11:43):
My first Christmas in Florida, you know, when I moved
to Florida, for just moving from New England to Florida
and then having what was a very traditional in fact
more traditional than what you even get in England because
it doesn't snow that much in England really does. It
depends where you are, but yeah, but London doesn't. You
should get much snow, right, and everyone thinks of Christmas
is you know, London is the ultimate I'm not anymore anymore,

(12:08):
but yeah, but like New England, yeah, that's right. Yeah,
but you know in Rhode Island, in Massachusetts, I mean
we we had white Christmases almost every year as a child.
I mean it was ills yeah, so it's it was
very much difficult to get used to people putting Christmas

(12:28):
lights up around the base of a palm tree and
calling that, you know, Christmas y. It just wasn't Christmas
because they would to just looked like a tropical nightclub
or something. Joining us from Tennessee, we have Brandon mylem.
How are you doing tonight, Brandon?

Speaker 7 (12:43):
Pretty good. Spent a couple of years since we've had
a white Christmas, I think the past couple of years.
It was in the sixties and I was in short
so felt kind of weird, soy Christmas around then.

Speaker 2 (12:55):
It was a few years. I think you probably had
the same white Christmas we did. We had a white
Christmas in Georgie about six No, but seventeen eighteen years ago,
oh maybe it wasn't. Even though it was not that far.
It might have been fifteen or sixteen years ago. I
was a baby.

Speaker 3 (13:12):
I thought it was like twenty eleve and twenty the
snow apocalypse you're talking about.

Speaker 2 (13:16):
I don't know if it was a snowpocalypse. It snowed
on Christmas Eve and we weren't able to actually get
home because we're over at or it. Maybe it snowed
on Christmas Day. No, it snowed on Christmas Day. We
weren't able to get home and we ended up having
to spend a couple of days at brands. Yeah, well,

(13:37):
we had definitely had enough to try it. But I
think that's probably the same white Christmas you had, because
I mean, let's face it, you know, you and I
are not too far apart, at least climate wise.

Speaker 7 (13:48):
No, because I think it was twenty fifteen. At least
we had a bunch of the snow where Tennessee declared
like a state of emergency or something like that. Yeah,
no one knows how to do.

Speaker 2 (14:00):
No, no, not around here. I mean, you let me
tell you.

Speaker 6 (14:04):
Every time it rains, it's bizarre. And it rains a lot,
like you know, I mean, when it rains, it really
it's like Georgia.

Speaker 4 (14:12):
Yeah, it's in the rain. It's bizarre.

Speaker 2 (14:18):
No anyway, No, they think they speed up and they
just they lose control, they lose their minds. This is
what happens. It's awful. It's absolutely awful. Just a little
Internet update here. The problem we were having with the
buffering last week was absolutely the result of the network
adapter dying. I tested it today and it was absolutely

(14:41):
it's dying. So we have a brand new one here
right now, actually an upgraded model. It's been working very
well all day. So let me know if you still
see buffering today. But I don't think you will, at
least not from my end. Also, our fiber company is
going to be doing a schedule maintenance tonight, but that's

(15:02):
between twelve and five twelve midnight to five in the morning,
so it should not affect this show. I think we'll
be off the air at least an now before they
begin that, but it will likely put the internet down
for about twenty to thirty minutes, So hopefully they keep
to that schedule. Just fair warning tonight, just in case
you never know. But it's not it's.

Speaker 3 (15:21):
Not anything early, that's.

Speaker 2 (15:23):
Right, I hope. No, they probably will we'll probably be well, all,
we'll all be asleep by the time that they were
working on Let's he I'll be driving. Yeah, that's right,
you will be driving. You'll still be driving. Okay, So Brandon,
what's our first question from the ether?

Speaker 7 (15:36):
So the first question is is it not a type
of paradox where a Christian believes confessing Jesus as their
savior equates to being saved without baptism or works. But
we'll quote Matthew chapter seven, verse twenty one.

Speaker 2 (15:51):
Okay, so Matthew, Matthew seven twenty one, that's the you know,
not everyone that that says, Lord, Lord, will you know
it's it's kind of a it's kind of a verse
that reminds us that even though you think that you've
been a good Christian, that might not be exactly how
God interprets your Actually, yeah, I don't know, so I

(16:14):
would say, and I think I said this on the network.
I would say that it's it's more hypocrisy than paradox.
And why I say hypocrisy is that Christians have this
hypocritical relationship with the Bible. They tend to love to
read and remember and and cite all of the things

(16:36):
that support whatever their particular worldview is and make sure
that everyone else knows it too, But they tend to
conveniently ignore everything that contradicts that worldview. And this is
one of those things that I think happens with Protestants
and Evangelicals who adopt this. And not all Protestants do,

(16:57):
but a lot of them do adopt this idea of
that all you have to do, although I think it's
actually more of a more of a well, no, it's
a Baptist Baptist do it, and and the you know,
Evangelicals are definitely doing it, this idea thats do do it.

Speaker 4 (17:14):
But but yeah, because I was baptized in a Baptist church.

Speaker 2 (17:18):
Right, yeah, yeah, I forget that. I forget that, and
so and so.

Speaker 6 (17:22):
Yes, they do have this thing where you know, you do,
you give your testimony, you interviewed, and then you have
to make your confession, and the confession being Jesus' Lord.

Speaker 4 (17:31):
Yes, so now you know. But interestingly, you could say
there's a biblical warrant to that. Right. Essentially, in Catholic
Baptism you basically.

Speaker 6 (17:39):
Have the same function, and if you're a baby, your
sponsors state for you.

Speaker 4 (17:43):
But in fairness, to the Baptists.

Speaker 6 (17:45):
You say Jesus Lord, then they immediately baptize you, so
you know they are called baptists. After all, they actually
baptize you in water, and that's a valid baptism. So
I you know, I know there are groups of evangelicals
that essentially don't.

Speaker 2 (18:02):
They don't see baptism as necessary.

Speaker 4 (18:04):
But no even and we believe that too under certain circumstances.

Speaker 2 (18:08):
Right well, I mean there's there's different types of Yeah,
baptisms by desire, baptism, you know, by blood. I mean,
there's other kinds of ways. We've talked about them. But
what I think is the problem here is not so
much that as much as it is it's the issue
that says that if I do this, then my works

(18:29):
Let's remember this is a work. My works guarantee salvation
is if you have control over what God decides. That's
the problem here, and that's the hypocrisy. That's why I call.

Speaker 6 (18:41):
It over as soon as I say Jesus Lord, that's
that's the only work I need to do, yes, because
it's one of the one of the criticisms I had of,
you know, of that process. Although I've got you know,
perhaps a more nuanced understanding of it posteology degree. But
you know, it did occur to me even in my
you know, eighteen year old old state that they reject works.

(19:02):
But I say, Jesus Lord, then I get about tizes.
Isn't that a work? Yeah, you know, because I but
and obviously I know that they you know, they're saying
that in a sense, the work reflects the faith.

Speaker 4 (19:14):
So I don't want to create a straw man here.

Speaker 6 (19:18):
But yeah, there is this sort of but for me
that not everyone that says, Lord, Lord, will learn to
the Kingdom of Heaven is saying, don't presume, you know,
we must have the humility to think, you know, I
hope I can barely scrape my way into heaven. That's
that's the correct Christian position, you know, not in a

(19:38):
way that says, oh, God's trying to get me, but
to say it's not about God, it's about me saying
I'm so aware of my own faults that I must
constantly work on myself in the hope I might scrape
into heaven.

Speaker 4 (19:52):
You know, that's a much.

Speaker 6 (19:53):
Better that, you know, literally, that's the way of humility
to the Kingdom of Heaven, rather than saying, oh, well,
you know, I've got all my theology stitched up, I've
said the right words, I go to the right church.

Speaker 4 (20:06):
So that's it. You know, it's transactional what's going on.

Speaker 2 (20:10):
That is what's going on. And I think that's ultimately
the real problem here is that assumption. And so yeah,
I wouldn't I wouldn't call it paradox. I call it hypocrisy,
just because I feel that if you really want to
cite the Bible and shove it down people's throats, there's
a lot of the Christians that adopt this confessing with
one's mouth and now you're automatically saved philosophy. They tend

(20:34):
to be shoving Bible versus down people's throats all the
time and get.

Speaker 6 (20:40):
Away with that in America, you know, in no other country,
like let's say, sorry, what's the Bible?

Speaker 2 (20:47):
You know, Yeah, I know it's interesting. It's a very
interesting thing. But I think it has to do with
a lot of well, I mean here, and I think
we're starting to really see that in the world, starting
to see the ugly side of this is that religion
is very politicized here. It's very political here, it's very political.

(21:09):
There are people that say that if you are not
a Republican, then then you're then then you're of the devil,
because a Republican is the only is the only philosophy,
political philosophy that is christ Like.

Speaker 7 (21:30):
You can't be Democrat and a Christian.

Speaker 2 (21:33):
That's the other side of that point. And that's not
that's that's a that's a uniquely American problem. That kind
of conservatives liberal We.

Speaker 4 (21:42):
All know the true Christian is a monarchyst not a Republican.

Speaker 2 (21:46):
But I'll tell you, I mean, if you think about
it from the historical bandage, but you're not wrong. But
you know, when you when you think about it from
from this American standpoint, I mean, this is why Catholics
have been so i think oppressed, particularly in the United States,
and and why there's so much tension between Catholics and
Protestants in the United States, at least at this level,

(22:08):
is because really, when you when you break down the
divide between liberals and conservatives, Catholics make up the almost
the entire majority of liberal Christians. I mean they really do. Uh,
there's not many Protestant liberals in America. In America, but
there's not many. Yeah, But when you look at all.

(22:30):
Look at all the the densely populated Catholic locations Chicago,
New England. These are all very liberal states. Yeah, yeah,
the Kennedys, Yeah, although I would say they're more republican
now than they that than than the liberals of todays Democrats, democrats, democrats,

(22:50):
because it's not they really need to dump the word
democrat and just call themselves progressives, because what they are
now is progressives. It's a different it's a different denomination.
It's different ideology, college denomination too. But yeah, I mean
a lot of the hatred of the church comes from
this divide too, because a lot of a lot of
a lot of liberals see themselves as being like the

(23:13):
the authority against the church, you know, I mean that
the church.

Speaker 6 (23:17):
It's interesting that this happens in a country that supposedly
has the separation of church and state.

Speaker 4 (23:22):
As a kind of.

Speaker 6 (23:24):
This is this is this is the confusing of things
because so, for example, I'm not a progressive, I'm not
a political lefty, but I could see how how one
could reach the opinion of saying, when it comes to
the revelation of my faith and how I live out
my religion, I can be ultra kind of conservative if

(23:45):
you I mean, these terms are so littered with you know, meaning.
But you know, let's say I can be a very
very straightforward, you know, extraordinary formed Catholic, you know, going
to confession three times a.

Speaker 4 (23:57):
Week, really buttoned down within my religion.

Speaker 6 (24:01):
But actually in my politics, I want people to you know,
I want that to be separated from that from that
religious worldview. So I'll preach my religious worldview, which could
be ultra conservative, but I could also vote to say,
but I actually want a more progressive political environment in
which to live like that is possible, you know, And

(24:22):
I think the sort of this is what's so damaging
or reductionist about people crossing those things over is that,
you know, you think that's how you reach the point
where you go, well, if somebody votes Democrat, then they
can't possibly be a Christian. It's like, really, you know,
do you have a window into their soul? To quote
Queen Elizabeth first, you don't. And by the way, if

(24:45):
you want to see how badly that can go wrong,
look at the Reformation.

Speaker 2 (24:50):
Yeah, you know, I mean, tell me about it. That's
a very good point. But you know, Catholic answers, which
is I think one of the institution that operates Catholic
dot com my favorite, and they love me. They think
I'm like the greatest thing on the on the planet.
They put out a post recently that said that if

(25:11):
you are that, that it it. You cannot be a Christian,
a Catholic and be pro choice. You can't. It's it's
they're not compatible. And my first thought to this was,
what does a person's political position on that have to

(25:32):
do with the subject of abortion. Now, if they had
said you cannot believe in abortion or be pro abortion
and be Christian, I agree with that statement. But when
you when you when you break it down to the
to the legalistic and political terminology, that's where it becomes problematic.
Because it's like I said to people all the time, Okay,

(25:54):
it's good for you right now because you're a Christian
and you agree with that, and somebody says that, and
you think that's a wonderful thing for them to say.
But just wait until a Muslim politician comes in with
some uh, some some very Islamic ideology that he wants
to imprint into the American government. How are you going

(26:17):
to feel about that when that happens? Because that's what
opens the door to it.

Speaker 6 (26:21):
I also don't know why they're using a term that
is not from their side of politics. Why use the
term pro choice? I stick stick to the terms. Stick
to it, you know, make it very clear. Let's talk
about abortion, because, like you said on that, there can
be agreement Amongst.

Speaker 3 (26:39):
Cilia's Catholics because we're good at painting over things, just
like planned parenthood. There's nothing planned about it. It's an
abortion clinic.

Speaker 2 (26:46):
Yeah, I.

Speaker 4 (26:49):
Don't know how to do that.

Speaker 2 (26:50):
Yeah, I don't. I don't, did anybody. I just want
to get a quick note between these. I don't want
to interrupt this because it's a good discussion, but did
anyone have any buffering there? Because I did notice there
was an era that came up on my screen for
a few minutes, so it was very minor. Okay, all right,
So I don't know what's going on with that, but
I just want to keep monitoring it just in case

(27:12):
there's other things going on. But there shouldn't be. Yeah,
but no, I mean that's really the issue here is
that I object to the political language. I object to
enforcing my religious viewpoints onto the entire population of people.
Do I think abortion is a reprehensible immoral act. Absolutely absolutely,

(27:33):
But that also means that we we but we I
also recognize that I live in a world where there
are people that think it's perfectly fine. And I am
not going to take my church and enforce the government
to start operating by the standards. Your church should be
teaching you that it's wrong. You don't need the government
to tell you it's right.

Speaker 3 (27:53):
You still have free will.

Speaker 2 (27:54):
You have free will.

Speaker 3 (27:55):
That's the choice is it's not not for us for you?

Speaker 2 (28:03):
Well, it's actually a good question for tonight. But let's
let's move on to the next one. What's our next
what's our next one? From the ether?

Speaker 7 (28:09):
So the next one comes from Andrew. He asked, why
do you think a dualistic religion like Zoroastrianism? And I
know ancient Judaism of some dead to it ever came
to be. Its metaphysics are out there, though I know
of it only a little.

Speaker 2 (28:25):
I think, I mean, there's different things, and I think, honestly,
you know, I'm probably not the best person to ask
this question of but I can say this much. I
think Zoroastrianism, like every other religion, is attempting to try
to explain the existence of evil. Every religion is trying
to take its its give its take on how this happened,

(28:48):
and in Zoroastrianism, it is very clear that the the
development of that philosophy was based very strongly on an
observation that evil seems pretty strong if you look at
it in isolation. It seems as though it's equal to good,
or if not more powerful, because when you look around

(29:09):
the world today, it's easier to see evil everywhere than
it is to see good everywhere, even though you're really
not paying attention, because honestly, it's not that disproportionate. It's
just your I.

Speaker 4 (29:20):
Think because goodness is so abundant and.

Speaker 2 (29:23):
Inate it does. It's because that's what you consider to
be baseline normal.

Speaker 3 (29:31):
You know that good news doesn't good news doesn't get
you clicks, but on social media and the NS, yes.

Speaker 2 (29:40):
But there's also this that the factor of entropy and
how we're wired. Because think about it from this point
of view, the best feeling in the world does not
feel as good as the worst feeling in the world
feels bad. Pain will always overdo even the most the
greatest orgasm, the most fantastic I mean think of the

(30:01):
best feelings you can have as a as a biological being.
Pain is going to be much more intense, much stronger,
much more difficult to process than even the greatest feeling
of ecstasy. We just don't we're not wired towards that
because it's just what we said, because goodness is actually

(30:24):
our baseline and we know it. We know it, and
so any deviation from it is going to get our
attention and disturb or I should say, better yet than disturbed,
the better word is perturbed. We become perturbed by anything
that's outside of that baseline. It's like the womb, right,
the womb is baseline. It's absolute perfection, absolute comfort, everything's

(30:46):
taken care. That's kind of what we that's our first
experience in this world. Whether we remember it or not,
we still innately know it. Yeah, well, but it doesn't
feel it's not really any more than the planet, any
more than the conscious I mean, yeah, but I mean
no more than the planet itself, because I mean, let's
face it, I mean, I don't like being stuck on

(31:07):
this I would like to leave this planet, but I can't.

Speaker 8 (31:09):
Right, Yeah, I.

Speaker 4 (31:13):
Think it was one of your presidences.

Speaker 6 (31:15):
It might have been Eisenhower who said, you know, if
the aim of if it was basically a sort of
reaction to sort.

Speaker 4 (31:21):
Of people calling for the government to do everything for you.

Speaker 6 (31:24):
Anyway, if the I think it was eyesenhow if the
aim of life is three square meals a day, you know,
in a bed to sleep on, then go to jail,
you know.

Speaker 4 (31:34):
You get like in jail.

Speaker 6 (31:35):
Yeah, but you know there's no freedom there, and so
just that foil of you know being. But yeah, look,
you make the right point about the you know, the
wound being the sort of is idyllic and partly because
you don't know anything else. In a way, it's like Eden.

Speaker 2 (31:52):
Right, it is. I think it's really And then there's
even evolutionary psychologists who or you know, of the atheist
persuasion that say this is where our concepts of heaven
actually come from, that it's actually a unconscious remembering of
the comfort and safety of the womb. I don't agree
with that. I think it's an archetypal correlation, though I

(32:16):
do think the womb is sort of the closest we
can get to the experience of heaven on this planet,
at least until we can return and find ourselves in
the in the real one, but it is a taste
of it, and it does stay with us. I think
that is our that's our drive towards there being the

(32:37):
sense that there's something wrong with the rest of the world,
and so yes, we're going to pay attention to those
things that are wrong. So I think the answer the
question Zeroastrianism was established to try to explain why evil
seems so pervasive, and so they came up with this
very dualistic approach towards explaining it, to the idea that well,

(32:58):
there must be two gods. There must be one good
God that takes care of us and an evil God
that wants to destroy us. And of course that became
very much an inspiration for Satan later on. And as
we've talked about on previous seasons on the show.

Speaker 4 (33:15):
I don't think it's that out there.

Speaker 6 (33:16):
I mean, partly the question that thinks this out there,
because we've been bombarded by thousands of years of Christianity
and so so it might see him out there, But
as you've described, it's not that out there when you
think about it. You know, we are kind of baser
instincts fall into dualism, right, you know, if you if

(33:39):
you see a tiger in the Indian raign in the
Indian forest, you don't think, oh, is it a friendly tiger?

Speaker 4 (33:44):
Or you know, I wonder if I could strike up
a conversation.

Speaker 6 (33:48):
Ship run so, you know, so so if you think
about it like that, like you know, dualism is a
sort of basic means by which to you know, do
I go down this path of that path?

Speaker 9 (34:01):
Do it?

Speaker 6 (34:01):
You know, does this hurt or does this not hurt?
You know, for me, it's actually a very It's why,
of course I think Christianity is so much better. You know,
a sort of dualistic worldview is a very baseline. You know,
it's like a foundational approach to thinking about the world.
But building upon that which which Christianity certainly does, leads

(34:26):
you to a to a greater truth, a deeper truth.

Speaker 2 (34:29):
Well, and I like I actually would even take it
even further and say, I really greatly appreciate the the
Hebrew contribution here, because of course they don't take they
don't they don't take responsibility or point the finger and say, well,
this is what caused it, or this this this evil
guide made me do it? You know, they it's full responsibility.

(34:51):
You know, and it's actually full responsibility without all of
the Christian guilt that sometimes I think comes later, because
you know, Judaism doesn't have the original sin component, not
the same way it's it's it's looked at very differently
in Judaism as it isn't interpreted in Christianity. But when

(35:11):
Christianity goes full blown Satan devil, that type of thing
in the way that it's interpreted there, then we start
to see, I think, something that's much more like Zoroastrianism
than than Judaism.

Speaker 6 (35:25):
Yeah, your rights a point of Judaism, because of course
it's their monotheism.

Speaker 4 (35:29):
Which was the revolution. Yeah, that's what moves you away
from dualism, right, one.

Speaker 2 (35:33):
God exactly that that got you couldn't even well, how
could you even say that there's something that could that
could compare to God, that that evil could even be
a match for him. That's really the perspective here. So
that's why Judaism doesn't have a devil, because even the darkness.

Speaker 4 (35:49):
Is not dark to you. Isn't that one of the psalms?

Speaker 2 (35:52):
Yeah? I think, yeah, I can't remember which one it is,
but there is something to that effect in there. I
guess maybe more than once. I think it shows up
something to that nature that's you know, yeah, so I
think that's what we're you know, metaphysically. Do they have
about wild beliefs, Well, I think if you look at
any religion from the outside in, I think it could

(36:15):
look metaphysically wild, you know, I think that's just the
nature of religion. But you know, it is a very
flawed system because I I would say that evil is
a choice, I don't say I don't see evil as
a power. I think I think evil is actually the

(36:37):
absence of power, And I think to to indulge in
evil is an act of cowardice, not a not an
act of strength, you know, it's it's it's not a
strength unto itself. If if if it was truly an
evil god, if there was an evil God that had
the powers of evil and could do the things that
an evil god could do, that's a oxymoron because evil

(37:00):
can only operate through cowardice. There is no intrinsic power
to evil. So the Jews got it right, and Christians
that understand this also get it right. Christian theology gets
it right because it also you know, defines evil as defeated.
So so I mean again, you know, remember how many
times have I do I need to tell all of

(37:20):
you that the devil has no power, that you yourself don't
give him. That's good Christian theology. There and and and
zori Astrianism would say, no, you know, it's it's you're
it's this evil God that's trying to to affect you. So, yeah,
we don't reject that. That's that that's that's not something
that dualism is not. Christianity is not a dualistic religion,

(37:43):
although most Christians are dualists. Honestly, they they've elevated the devil,
just like.

Speaker 6 (37:49):
Most are still arians and most are still historians.

Speaker 2 (37:53):
Yeah, those heresies haven't gone anywhere. They just get buried
under ignorance. I think, all right, what's our next one, Brandon?

Speaker 7 (38:00):
So the third question goes from April I posted previously
if you had ever invest to get a miracle? But
I got to thinking, what about healing, either by laying
on of hands or other means.

Speaker 2 (38:11):
Yeah, that's a good question. And I think any priest
that has conferred the sacraments, particularly the sacrament of unction,
has seen healing because unction as a sacrament is a
guaranteed spiritual healing, okay, But occasionally, and oftentimes it does.

(38:32):
It can actually trickle down into the mental and emotional
arena and give mental and emotional healing as well as
even sometimes physical healing itself. It is not conferred with
the intention to say, okay, we're going to heal you here.
It's not a substitute for going to a doctor and
getting treated for a medical condition. But it is recognized

(38:54):
by the Church that every now and then the sacrament
doesn't seem to impart the grace that results in some
kind of healing or at least great comfort to the sick.
And so this is why it is given, is because
it is a sacrament that gives comfort and always provides
the spiritual healing that ultimately is the source of every

(39:18):
illness anyway. I mean, you know, you can say that
disease comes from infections from bacteria and all these other things.
You know, of course, viruses, all that. Yes, that's scientifically true. However, however,
the fact that you are vulnerable to something like an
infection from bacteria virus is the result of the falling condition.

(39:41):
So ultimately it is a spiritual problem. The fact that
we have let evil into this world. Is the result
is why people do get sick, and it's why people die.
So it is ultimately a spiritual problem that only the
grace of the sacraments can correct. And any priest who
has is done pastoral work in this capacity is going

(40:03):
to see the power of that sacrament happen. I remember
one time it was it was really a remarkable thing.
I was asked to confer the last rights on a
woman who was was an immediate risk of resk of death.
She did eventually die a few hours after receiving extreme

(40:26):
extreme unction or viaticum in viaticum uh. And so what
what that is is that basically last rights is just
the the special special form of of holy unction or
the anointing of the sick, that is done when a
person is an immediate death or there is impending death.

(40:46):
And so she was, she was dying, and she was
basically unconscious. So when I asked the family, you know,
she is she cognizant? Am I going? Am I going
to be able to hear a confession? Because these are
elements that you do, you know, and if they are
not able to vocalize or something, well then you just

(41:07):
proceed with what you can. And so they said, no,
she's unconscious, you know it, will you still be able
to come? And so of course I can come. You know,
we can still anoint her and do what we can.
But I was really hoping to at the very least
give her the Eucharist. And so I said, you know,
is she does she have any waking moments? Well, like

(41:30):
they said, well, sometimes she'll she'll kind of be awake.
So I said, so if we put like a like
the tiniest, tiniest particle of the host, like just like
break off a tiny crumb and just like put it
under her tongue so that it could just sort of
like dissolve in there is, do you think that that
would be something that we could do? And they say, oh, yeah,

(41:51):
that shouldn't be an issue. Okay, So it's like, oh, well,
we'll be good. So I go down there, okay, and
where where it was trace you and I and we
were I was, she was helping to perform it, and
then I was conferring the full rite up to the
point when she could not speak, so there was no confession,

(42:11):
but she was unconscious the whole time. I got there
and did the rights and anointed her, you know again
unconscious the whole time. And then I got to the
part where we were going to give her the Eucharus,
and I kid you not, she opened her eyes, sat
her her head up, and opened her mouth to receive it.

(42:34):
I kid you not, And she took the entire host,
She took communion. She went back down into unconsciousness and
died a couple hours later. Now, in my opinion, that
is far more miraculous than you know, some kind of
physical healing, because that was the mark of a true
spiritual thing. I knew in that you want to talk

(42:57):
about knowing us if someone saved, and that moment I
knew she was. In that moment, I knew she was.

Speaker 6 (43:03):
Yeah, I mean the church teaches that function is a
healing because I mean often oftentimes, you know, when I've
been called out where I was first, well, the first
parish I ran myself. We had you know, an old
people's home, and you know, it was a small town,
so a lot a lot of the residents there had

(43:26):
in fact been you know, faithfully at the church all
their lives and then they've gone to the old people's
home and they get dementia or what have you. And
because you start, you know, you start the prayers from
the ritual for function and the prayers for healing.

Speaker 4 (43:40):
And they found that, oh no, no, she's ready to die.

Speaker 6 (43:42):
Like death is a healing like you know, we believe
in the healing power of death. Like Christians don't try
to avoid death. We actually embrace it, not in a
suicidal way, but in a way that says no, life
is about.

Speaker 2 (43:56):
It, not a quite to Ai, not according to AI.
I mean when I can't sleep a father, I get
into these long philosophical debates with chet BT that will
go on for an hour. And I got into a
fight about this and I started talking about that, you know,
and it said it's it gave me the suicide hotline.
It said that it sounds like I'm going to want
to hurt myself. Well I'm succeeding it being a good Christian.

Speaker 4 (44:22):
They don't want to get sued. That's what about.

Speaker 10 (44:25):
I know.

Speaker 6 (44:26):
Yeah, but I mean like you, I mean, I've I've
been to I remember getting called to it, to this place,
and I was actually quite appalled with the family because
I get called to it and I go there expecting
the families to be there and there's no one there,
you know, and I'm wandering around this place and the
staff are hopeless as well. I won't name it, but

(44:49):
I'm sure it's better now, Sure it's better now.

Speaker 4 (44:52):
I wrote a very long letter about it.

Speaker 6 (44:53):
But the so I wander around and in the end
I get to the right room and it's this poor
little old woman who she must have been in her nineties.
And she was absolutely demented, you know, like gone, you know,
I mean it was put it this way. I was
a cop for ten years, I've been a priest for
a while by then. I've seen a lot of.

Speaker 4 (45:13):
Dead people again. And I was not sure whether she
was alive or dead. Really, I was not sure whether
she was live or so anyway, and there's just me
in this room on my own.

Speaker 6 (45:23):
I thought, you know, this bloody family they've thought, oh well,
I want.

Speaker 4 (45:28):
Someonet to be with her, but not me, you know,
do you know what? Fine, that's what priest's about.

Speaker 6 (45:33):
So and I was going through the prayers with her,
and you know, it felt like I was talking to
the bed, you know, until the Lord's prayer, and that
the Lord's prayer she joined in.

Speaker 4 (45:49):
Well, I couldn't tell that she was alive or dead.

Speaker 6 (45:51):
As soon as I started the Lord's prayer, her mouth moved,
but she was saying this prayers, and I think, if
that's not here, I don't know what is. Absolutely And
then on a lighter note, and this happens to a
colleague of mine as well, with the same person. Where
we've been called out to administer function, you shouldn't. I mean,

(46:15):
we call last rights for ease, but but really it's
the healing prayers and function. And I think between us,
we've been there. I think I've been there once. He'd
been there three times, and she'd rallied every time he
said we're going to stop calling you. She's she's ready

(46:37):
to gar so so it can lead to actual physical
healing as well, but the deep.

Speaker 4 (46:42):
The far deeper healing. And that's why, by the way.

Speaker 6 (46:45):
That's why we shouldn't call it last rights, you know, really,
because we don't want anyone that's having some serious health problem.
And it has to be serious, not some you know,
I'm getting any grown toe removed, but any serious illness
embarking on chemotherapy.

Speaker 4 (47:02):
If you're going to have a general.

Speaker 6 (47:02):
Anaesthetic, which always has the risk of death, you should
be calling in the priest or going to the church,
you know, if you're if you're otherwise, well when you
go to Mass on Sunday saying actually, you know, could
you could I receive function because I'm gonna have this
procedure or embarking on this course of treatment, which is
going to be pretty serious.

Speaker 4 (47:23):
We should be doing that, you know, we shout off.

Speaker 2 (47:26):
I think that's why, I mean it used to be.
I mean, one one, That's one of the things that
Veatican two did very well, I think is that they
brought function back into the realm of just normal reception,
because it was getting to the point where unless you
were in hospice level care, you would not receive it.
They wouldn't give it to you. Then they sting Vatican

(47:47):
two changed it to Now that's why, well, honestly, that's
the that's my first I got to I know, because
ultimately exorcism is really just an extension of that sacrament.

Speaker 10 (47:59):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (48:00):
In my opinion, you know, I always start I would
never give.

Speaker 4 (48:04):
Extra confession combined.

Speaker 2 (48:07):
Absolutely, I would never give exorcism to somebody, not the
solemn riot of extorcism, until they've at least had unction
and confession, preferably too, if they're capable. But you know,
the fact is, yeah, it was, it was restricted. That's
what it used to be called. Just Last writes that
that was what it was just called, or extreme function,

(48:29):
and and then they changed the terminology to make it
more neutral to the Sacrament of the sick, because anybody
could have and you know, in the Orthodox Church there's
a there's a couple of days of the liturgical year
where everyone just goes up and gets it, whether you're
whether you're sick or not, you go up and again
painted on the floor with a little brush. Yet a

(48:52):
couple of times a year that happens, and it's everyone
receives it in a general uh part of the liturgy.
I like that said.

Speaker 6 (49:00):
There's always extra, there's always extra, like this is the
the issue with Vatican too, is not vatigan to. It's
the extremes, abuses of abuses. Because I don't like weekly
healing services, healing masses.

Speaker 2 (49:14):
I mean, I think these two.

Speaker 6 (49:18):
Poles, you know, I don't think it should be so
rare ast to say, you know, unless unless we know
this is your last breath.

Speaker 4 (49:25):
You know, you'd be better off asking riverboat gambler when
to call the priest. You know, I don't like that.
But sorry, sorry River Gambler, but.

Speaker 6 (49:38):
I say, I'm sure, I'm sure you're a very responsible person,
so it'd be perfectly sensible. But but on the other hand,
I don't. I don't like this kind of again the
risk of transactional, transactional approach to things. You know, I'm
going to go to the Thursday healing Mass at the church.
I don't like that. Yeah, you know, I think I
think it really should have a personal character or I mean,

(49:59):
like you say in the Orthodots Church that they do
have within the liturgical calendar set days where that is
what's happening. Yes, they have forgiveness, and I'm okay with that.

Speaker 2 (50:08):
I'm okay with Yeah, it's yeah, but I don't think
it should be overdone.

Speaker 4 (50:14):
You know, the same people every Thursday comes to the
healing Master.

Speaker 6 (50:18):
Do you know what becomes a crutch you've had your unction,
go and do something yourself about.

Speaker 2 (50:23):
It, it becomes a crutch and then it kind of
I think psychologically cheapens the experience to when you normally
I mean, look that happens with Eucharus too. You know.
I think sometimes that the deficit to having eucharrous every
mass is that people do start to their psychologists do
start to take it for granted. The grace is still there.

(50:45):
The graces risk is for priests, I know very much,
so because the priest has to receive community and they
celebrate Mass. That's right, because often if I'm if I'm
sat in the pews, I don't receive communion. Yeah, not
because I'm in some existential crisis, just because there's a
discipline of a lot. There's a discipline. Sure, yeah, no,

(51:06):
I like it. Brandon, I think we've got time for
that bonus question if you want to ask it.

Speaker 7 (51:12):
So the bonus question kind of fits in with tonight's topic.

Speaker 2 (51:16):
So I brought it up.

Speaker 7 (51:18):
If it's the assumption that Hell is more so a
condition and not a place, what are these portals to
Hell that people talk about. The first one becomes of
my mind is reported to be Bobby Mackie's in Kentucky.

Speaker 2 (51:32):
Okay, So, as we're going to see in the next
hour here, I firmly reject the idea of Hell as
being a place or a location that one goes to.
It is a condition that one becomes. Okay, and we're

(51:52):
going to get into that a lot of it's semantics,
but we're going to get into it. But in that
kind of mindset, there's no such thing as a portal,
in the sense that there's like another dimension and you
cross through this barrier, this membrane, and now you're in
this other dimension where I guess evil things happen, or
you're in hell or something. What portals are What people

(52:17):
are detecting in these paranormal circumstances is weak spaces within
the vibrational structure of the cosmos itself. Because if you
want to talk metaphysically about what is the universe, it's
really nothing more than an abstraction of geometry and vibration

(52:39):
between that geometry. That's it, all, right. Now, we can
take that energy and convert it into an experience that
feels like what we call life. But the reality is
it's just geometry and energy, and that energy is vibrational, okay,
And so there are parts of the geometry that hold

(53:01):
the vibrations very firmly and maintain the frequencies or the
frequency range of those vibrations in a set order. There's
places in the geometry where it's weak. The weaknesses can
be caused by numerous things. Typically it's trauma that weakens them,

(53:22):
or you know, any kind of action that changes the frequency.
So let's say, if you're performing dark satanic rituals like
human sacrifices or something equally as dark, or maybe even worse.
I can definitely think of a few things that might
even be worse than that. Then you're changing the frequency

(53:43):
of that geometry, which is what you interpret to be
a location or space or a location within space, and
that change in frequency weakens the geometry around it because
it's not designed to hold that frequency.

Speaker 3 (54:01):
Form kind of a metaphysical tear.

Speaker 2 (54:03):
You could call it that. I mean, again, it's allegorical,
but it's it's it's a good way of trying to
visualize it. So that's why when when there is a house,
let's say, where dark rituals were performed or satanic rituals
were performed, even if they were just done, you know,
with by teenagers playing around, these symbols are still energetically meaningful,

(54:27):
and the intention is still energetically meaningful. In fact, I'd
say that's the real important thing right there, is what
did they intend to do? Is it?

Speaker 9 (54:35):
Is?

Speaker 2 (54:35):
It? Is it an intention towards rebellion, admiration for dark things.
This creates vibrational change, which creates geometric weakness, and that
allows things of that same frequency to then enter into
that same geometry, And so it seems like a portal

(54:58):
opens and dark things come through. But that's just the
allegory your brain's trying to create to understand what's happening
at a level that it cannot see. Because we can't
see the vibration. You can only feel it, and not
everyone's sensitive enough to even sensitive enough to even do that,
and you can't see the geometry for what it is.
You can only see the appearance of the geometry, which

(55:20):
is all of the things that we call matter in
the in the in the phenomenal world. But ultimately it's
just geometry and the energy between. Don't believe me, Well,
it's scientific fact, because that's exactly what what atoms are
in molecules. It's just basically energy, vibration and geometry as

(55:41):
they structure, form structures that create the appearance of things, right, Solids, gases, liquids,
those are just appearances for how the geometry structure.

Speaker 6 (55:51):
If you really want to, if you really want to
blow your mind, consider consider.

Speaker 4 (55:55):
How your body coheres.

Speaker 6 (55:57):
Yeah, our bodies are made of atoms joined together by electricity.
Basically exactly right, which is why you know, I mean
Hindu traditional they love to reflect on this. Every seven years,
every single cell in your body is replaced, so you're
literally not not the same matter that you were born as.

Speaker 2 (56:16):
No, just your neurons say that are stay consistent. But
every other cell I think does eventually replaced. Yeah it's true. Yeah, yeah,
the remnants of what happened before will be there. But
I do think, yes, every cell will die and and
and be replaced by other cells. Just neurons are the

(56:37):
only ones that I think stick around for a while,
although we do lose them as time goes on. They
used to say drinking it would like kill so many
of them. I don't think that's true, but you know.

Speaker 4 (56:47):
It's working for me.

Speaker 2 (56:54):
I'm telling you, I think I get smarter after a
few drinks. I do. I think I get smarter in some.

Speaker 3 (56:58):
Pretty deep conversations. And we're having libations.

Speaker 2 (57:01):
Yes for me.

Speaker 6 (57:02):
For me, it's a bell curve. You're not, but you've
not had libations last couple of weeks. I'm for me,
it's a bell curve. You know, I get smarter and
then much dummer.

Speaker 2 (57:12):
That's true, and there's a happy spot now, I will
say this. You know, I find that my operational performance
actually improves with a little bit of alcohol, and and
certainly conversation or you know, even thought improves. So I'm
actually a better teacher after a few drinks. I'm a

(57:32):
better conversationalist. I'm certainly better to be around. But I
do find that the one thing that does absolutely suffer
is multitasking. So if you don't see me doing as
much libations liturgical libations starting to show, it's because I
have noticed that my multitask performance absolutely goes to ship

(57:53):
after a couple of whiskeys, and the show tends to
operate better when I don't do that. Downside is I'm
probably not as good a host, but we'll see. I
don't know, you guys be the judge of that. I
can't do that. But anyway, that's what a portal ultimately is.
You know, it's just a vibrational weakness. It's not really

(58:16):
like a hole in the universe where you know, dark
things from another dimension come through. But speaking of dark
things coming through, we're going to now take our first
break here and then when we come back. What we're
going to discuss is hell, what it really is, and
well if you end up there, if you're unfortunate enough

(58:37):
to end up in hell, are you going to be
tortured for all eternity or is it just going to
be eventually be lights out? We call that annihilationism, and
that's the subject tonight. So don't go.

Speaker 11 (58:48):
Anywhere something of a something of a.

Speaker 12 (59:19):
Something that not n.

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Speaker 12 (01:04:27):
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Speaker 17 (01:05:05):
Not a not agree.

Speaker 2 (01:06:07):
Welcome back everyone to the second hour of Vestiges after dark. Okay,
we're going to start tonight's subject or lecturing on tonight's
subject on annihilationism and the nature of hell. Should be
interesting because even if you're not a religious person or
a spiritual person or a Bible believing person, you know

(01:06:29):
a little bit about hell right. Everyone has been told
to go to hell at some point, hence the name
of the show. But tonight we're going to get really
down into the reality of it, the metaphysics and the theology.
So don't want to miss It'll be back in just
a moment. Okay, everyone, So we're going to get started here.

(01:07:52):
U Brandon and Father Chris will be back for the
third hour to help us unpack what we're going to
discuss here. But we're going to take this hour to
go through it. And there's a lot of material here,
as you can probably imagine, so there's only so much
time that I can really devote to the details on
some of this, but we're going to break it down

(01:08:15):
as simplistically as I can. I've tried to reduce this
to something that I can potentially get through in an hour.
I'm going to do my very best. If we end
up having to do a part two, well there are
some empty slots, two empty slots or maybe three left
in the season, so maybe we could throw it into

(01:08:36):
one of those if need be. I'm going to try
to get through it. But anyway, the subject tonight is
annihilationism and the reason why I like to refer to
Hell as annihilationism, or I take or adopt an annihilationist
point of view on this is because once you break
down logically what Scripture says on the subject, where our

(01:09:02):
concepts of Hell come from, and why it's really the
only using logical deduction, the only logical conclusion one can
draw in the end on multiple levels. And we're going
to I'm going to try to help you to see
this this. Look, I am not here to preach this,
This is not a sermon, and I'm certainly not here

(01:09:23):
to try to persuade you to adopt my annihilationist point
of view. However, that being said, it will help you
to understand my particular brand of Christianity a lot better,
because part of the Holy Nikolaine Catholic Church's mission, statement,
and tradition is to adopt the most ancient Christianity that

(01:09:47):
we possibly can without losing the essence and richness of
what came after. So kind of trying to blend the
two worlds, and I think, and I would say, and
I would argue, and what I'm going to do to
I just argue that point is that the theology of
the early Church is a lot different than how or
what we take for granted today as Christianity. Hell is

(01:10:09):
the worst defender. Out of all the things we talk
about in Christianity, hell is the worst defender. When you
think about the word hell, what do you think, right,
You're going to almost immediately come up with a fiery,
torturous place where there's demons and the devil is everywhere
and people are being tortured and burning for all eternity.

(01:10:33):
That's the fire in Brimstone concepts of theology that some
pastors and Protestantism adopt, and certainly the Middle Ages was
full of these ideas, Dante's Inferno being an example that
we've cited on this show before. So it seems as
though it's indeed a place somewhere that you would go

(01:10:54):
to and you know.

Speaker 4 (01:10:56):
Be.

Speaker 2 (01:11:00):
Content to accept as a place that you want to avoid.
And that's important because part of the reason why we
have this concept is actually for that reason to inspire
you to want to avoid it. But we're going to
get into those details now. Another thing I need to
preface this with is that two things. Number One, this

(01:11:22):
is what I'm going to teach here is not the
official teaching of the Church. The Catholic Church has a
more traditional view on hell. It teaches that it is
a location, a place at least a place. Some might
see it as a condition, or it's a conditional place,

(01:11:43):
you might say, or go a place that that also
includes a condition is better a way to put it.
But it is eternal, you are aware of it, and
it is absolute suffering. But the torturous aspect of it
is the fact that you are no longer able to

(01:12:05):
access God. The absence of God is the torture, is
the ultimate torture. So Catholics don't necessarily see that, you know,
people are going to be literally tortured by demons there
and and there will be cause for pain or an excruciating,

(01:12:25):
you know, sense of pain. It's far more about the
nature of one's loss. So it's the ultimate loss. And
I'm not going I'm not disputing that, but we're going

(01:12:47):
to add to that understanding by saying there's far more
to it than just that. That's a very elementary, almost
kindergarten like understanding of it. So let's break this down now. Okay.
So one of the things that what the church teaches

(01:13:07):
is known as ect eternal consciousness torment. This is the
standard in all denominations of Christianity. Pretty much everyone teaches
that when you are not saved, then you go to
Hell and you will be in a state of eternal
conscious torment. Eternal meaning forever conscious meaning you are aware

(01:13:31):
of it, forever, torment meaning that you are in pain
and suffering forever. Pretty bad when you think about I mean,
think of the worst things that you can experience here.
And it has been the traditional teaching of the church
that this is forever worse than whatever you can possibly imagine.

(01:13:52):
The worst pain doesn't even come close to it. This
is how it's taught and has been taught. Okay, that's
theologically problematic, but it is what's been taught. Okay. This
comes from an analysis of Catholic metaphysics, scripture, and tradition.

(01:14:15):
But annihilationism can do all this without falling into the
heresy and trap of universalism. Now, universalism is the complete
polar opposite end of annihilationism. Universalism is otherwise known as
universal restoration, is the belief that in the end everyone

(01:14:38):
actually does end up saved. It's only an illusion for
the sake of keeping you, I guess motivated to work
towards yourself ation, because if you knew you were gonna
get it anyway, then why bothered you try? You might
as well just do anything you want now because it's
gonna be okay later. And so it was bel leaved

(01:15:00):
by some people that if that you know that, yeah,
it's kind of true that you're going to go. You know,
everyone get makes the heaven, but we can't let anyone
know about it because if they know about it, then
they won't be motivated to, you know, try to be better.
And so that was the called universal restoration or universalism.

(01:15:24):
We're not discussing that here. So the idea that hell
is annihilation does not mean that, well, that means that
everyone gets saved. Now, why would you have to say
You might be kind of confused at this point and say, well,
why is universalism even part of the the situation here? Well,
the problem is the church also has another thing that
it teaches, and this is where it gets into trouble.

(01:15:47):
It teaches that souls are eternal, and if tools cannot
be destroyed, then what where do the damn go? If
they're not going to be saved. If everyone doesn't get save,
then that means that there's some that are damned, and
if some are damned, then they have to go somewhere. Well,
that must be Hell, and that's where the church is now.

(01:16:08):
So when you when you when you look at Christian
theology today orthodox Christian theology, and by orthodox I mean
like the Little O meaning what almost every Christian denomination
teaches in some capacity. That's the idea that your soul's
eternal and being saved means you go to Heaven and

(01:16:29):
if you're damned, you go to Hell. Okay, that's the
that's the foundation to Christian theology on what happens after
we die. I reject this firmly. I always have, but

(01:16:56):
I couldn't really work it all out until I start
doing this and developing and maturing as a Christian, to
the point that now I think I have an understanding
that I can share with people and maybe hopefully elaborate
on this because I don't know about you, but maybe
some of you also have the same feelings on this

(01:17:16):
that that's kind of a problematic point of view, isn't
it This idea that you are if you don't do
whatever God you know, whatever kinds of things are necessary
to attain salvation, whatever God requires of you, then you're
going to be forever tormented. Even Augustine themselves say in

(01:17:39):
Augustine themselves said that offending the eternal God means that
the only punishment that is justifiable is an eternal punishment.
You offend the eternal God, you can only possibly deserve
eternal punishment as the result of that. He said that

(01:18:00):
that might seem a little bit too much for some
of you. Let's explain how there's a better way of
going about this. So there's semantics involved. Okay, So I
already told you the Church teaches that hell is an
eternal punishment. That's in the Catechism, in the ten thirty
three to ten thirty five. I believe we've talked about

(01:18:22):
eternal conscious torment, which is what the Church teaches. That
is the traditional doctrine of ongoing conscious suffering for all eternity.
Annihilationism is a different theological approach. Its view is that
the wicked those that are damned. It accepts the fact
that there are damned, that not everyone will be safe,

(01:18:44):
so therefore not universalists. But it says that the damned
will be ultimately destroyed, that the identity of that individual
who is damned will be forever destroyed, that not tortured, forever,

(01:19:07):
forever destroyed, irrevocably eliminated, as if they never were. The
problem is the immortality of the soul. Now, what's the issue.
What I find to be the foundational issue is that
Christianity is not a pagan religion. At least it's not.

(01:19:32):
It doesn't claim to be, it's not supposed to be.
But yet the immortality of the soul is a pagan creation.
It's absolutely a pagan creation. Comes from the Greek philosophers
Plato and Aristotle. Predominantly the Israelites did not hold that position.

(01:19:59):
Judaism does not hold thatser, or did not hold that position.
It has since been influenced by paganism as well, and
I think a lot of Jews now today do hold
some kind of continuity of consciousness and after life kind
of thought. But at the time of the ancient Jews,
around the time that Christianity was just about to be formed,

(01:20:21):
the position prior to that was that the soul, which
was referred to in Hebrew as nefesh, refers to a
unified living being, not a not a separate spiritual consciousness.

(01:20:44):
So you know how we talked about and we get
into troublesotimes with the semantics of spirit and soul. You know,
that's very problematic. We sometimes interchange them. And there's a
reason for that because the Greek words that we use
in Christianity psyche for soul, which is the mind, right psychology, right,

(01:21:07):
we talked about that last week.

Speaker 1 (01:21:09):
And.

Speaker 2 (01:21:11):
Numa for spirit the life force, that which God breathes
into us. In Paganism, which are the Greek concepts here,
they're Greek words, right, Pagan Greek words. They present a

(01:21:32):
pagan worldview that these are separate realities that can exist
independently of the others. That's not how the Nephesh and
Hebrew and the Israelites and the ju the Jewish tradition
saw it. In other words, the nephesh is the entire being.

(01:22:00):
When you see that word in the Old Testament, it's
translated as soul, But what it means is the entire being.
It does not mean in immortal soul. It means that
the whole person, the whole creation, the entirety of that individual,

(01:22:24):
not just soul. In other words, in Hebrew, the word
soul nefesch means the entire thing, body, spirit, soul. In fact,
there is no distinction between spirit and soul, really not really.
There is the ruoc, which is the breath of God,
that of life that is breathed into us by God.
But even that becomes part of the nephesh. It's not immortal.

(01:22:50):
That's why it dies. In Genesis chapter two, verse seven,
it says, then the Lord God formed man from the
dust of the ground and breathe into his nostrils. Again,
that's the ruck into his notionrils, the breath of life,
and the man became a living nefesh. In other words,

(01:23:11):
man does not receive a soul in that moment, he
becomes one. And so if man can die, guess what
dies too? The whole thing. It's not like it separates
and the soul goes on eternally in some spiritual incorporeal
reality and the body just rots away. No, the whole

(01:23:35):
thing dies. And for those of you who understand the
paranormal worldview, well, guess what that also means that if
you have worked with spirits and you work with paranormal problems,

(01:24:00):
and you probably also know that this is more consistent
with what happens than the traditional view of this separation,
where now mediums are going to tell you something different,
and we'll explain that one later if you want. And
I've already talked about that on other shows. But the

(01:24:22):
fact of the matter is how many times have I
told you body dies and then the spiritual nature starts
to die to it just takes a time. Is not
a constant in this, just like the body doesn't die immediately.
You could be dead legally, but you know, you have
cells that are still alive. Maybe no neurons are firing,

(01:24:45):
so you're not aware of it. But the body is
not dead dead. It's a dies in processes. It's always
going to be a living cell here and there until
the whole thing's finally gone. The spiritual nature's that too,
But in Judaism it's one thing. So if it dies,

(01:25:06):
all of it dies together, maybe at different rates, but
it doesn't it's like separate and go off somewhere else.
The spirit doesn't just go off somewhere else, or the soul.
In Genesis one twenty one, the word nephish is used
for animals two. Think about that. Animals are referred to

(01:25:28):
in this way because it means a living being, which
is what they were, what they understood a soul to be.
In Greek and Paganism, a soul was the mind, the
incorporeal thoughts that one has, and the feelings that come
with it. In Judaism, it was the entire It's just

(01:25:49):
a living being, and when it dies, it all dies.
So death in the Hebrew context was that there was
at death, there is a loss of vitality, and then
they enter into the state of shale, which is a

(01:26:09):
shadowy realm of unconsciousness. Why because there can't be any
consciousness if the mind is gone, if the brain is dead,
because that's the seat of consciousness, and the entire soul
is the entire thing the body too. Think about the

(01:26:32):
resurrection of the dead, why is it important for Jesus
to rise from the dead physically too? Would it didn't
make more sense if the pagan worldview here's my first
argument for the annihilationism. If the pagan worldview is the
correct one, wouldn't it be better for Jesus to just
resurrect spiritually and then take us up spiritually too, and

(01:26:53):
we can just be like a bunch of incorporal ghosts.
Doesn't that make more sense than literally rising from one's
grave reconstituting a body to become somewhat physical. Again, doesn't
it seem to make more sense to stay in if
you could just be a spiritual thing floating around, impervious
to physical problems. Does it make more sense to just

(01:27:16):
do that? But that's not what Jesus does. He rises physically. Okay?
Why because of this? Because in the Jewish understanding, you
couldn't just have one thing rise. The whole thing has
to rise. They're not separate. So Jesus has to ascend

(01:27:42):
physically as well as spiritually, and he does. His body
goes up, and our school too. The resurrection of the
dead is the theology here. Now let's talk about what
the Bible says about this dying process. This shame Okay,
which is translated, that's the Hebrew word translated into English.

(01:28:04):
What does it mean? It means hell. The very word
that is used to translate the Hebrew word shale is hell. Remember,
you haven't heard anything about demons, nothing about satan so far,
nothing about evil, nothing about torture or burning. We've just

(01:28:24):
simply All we've known is that it's an unconscious place.
It's an unconscious state, not even a place, an unconscious state,
because it's death. The dead become death Ecclesiastes nine to five.
The dead know nothing if you're conscious. I don't think

(01:28:47):
you could say that this is the word of God.
That's canon, that's not an extra canonical text. That's the
Old Testament. The dead know nothing Psalm six' five and,
death there is no remembrance of you and, shayoh who
will give you? Praise why can't they give? Praise why
is there no remembers because there's no, mind there is no,

(01:29:09):
Consciousness there is just. Nothing the dead are not pictured
in eternal. Torment. Here it's the act of ceasing to
be alive and thus non, being, stillness, silence. Nothingness but
let's contrast that now With greek. Philosophy plato and many

(01:29:32):
of the later philosophers taught that the soul is immortal by.
Nature REMEMBER i said earlier that this is a pagan,
concept not A jewish. One here's where you get, it spiritual.
Essence they saw the spiritual essence as being trapped in
the body gnosticism, anyone and this continues after. Death so

(01:29:56):
when you, die the body releases this spiritual essence and
you're all happy. Again grandma's in heaven even though there's
no resurrection of the. Dead what Are christians talking? About
how could she be in heaven there's no resurrection of
the dead, yet But grandma's so important she's going to
get an. EXEMPTION i GUESS i don't. Know The hellenistic

(01:30:18):
concept strongly Influenced Christian christian thought predominantly Through, augustine who
was more of A platinist. First in, FACT i think
it Was augustine that said that if it hadn't been For,
plato he would have never even been able to Understand.
Christianity So augustine was Followed plato Before.

Speaker 3 (01:30:42):
Christ he struggled for quite a, while.

Speaker 2 (01:30:44):
Didn't He he, did And aquinas very, influenced very much
influenced by Both plato And. Aristotle but In hebrew human
beings again are a psychosammetic. Unity the body and spirit
exist together and they're not separable. Entities so the idea

(01:31:08):
That jesus had at the time that he walked the
earth and taught and clearly was influenced by The jewish,
system BECAUSE i mean he, taught he was, Taught he
taught in the, Synagogues he Quoted Old testament, scripture he
chose to come to The jewish people as their, messiah

(01:31:30):
the messiah they were waiting. For he Was. Jewish it
wasn't Like i'm going to come and correct You. Jews
he continued their line of. Thought so his idea of
body and spirit would not have been This greek separation

(01:31:52):
they would. Have he would have seen them as. One
hence the resurrection of the, dead and why it's a physical,
thing and why it was taught a physical. Thing his
actual action of it is a physical. Thing thus Why
thomas can put his fingers through the nail, marks because
it was the actual body that died on the. Cross

(01:32:12):
it wasn't some. Ghost the scriptures make it very clear
it wasn't a, ghost even though it could do ghostly like. Things,
now the resurrected body is, different but it is still
the same body as it will be for all of.
Us that's What christian theology. Teaches what does this imply

(01:32:33):
then this understanding for our annihilationist, Argument, well Since hebrew
thought the soul is not inherently. Indestructible in other, words
it can die because if the body, dies then the
soul can die. Too since they're one, thing then immortality
can only be a gift From. God, anyone Remember, elijah

(01:32:55):
he was taken up to. Heaven, right he didn't, die
because that's the way that you Had god good grant
you immortality at that point have to be raised up
body and, soul not. Separately that's why they Thought jesus

(01:33:15):
might have Been elijah Or john The baptist and all that. Stuff,
right they, thought you, know because they were, Expected, well
Maybe elijah will come back one. Day it's taken up to.
Heaven didn't. Die but if you, die it's over you ended.
Shield that's what made the resurrection so. Remarkable eternal life

(01:33:35):
belongs only to the. Righteous jesus makes that. Clear it's
given Through god's sustaining. Grace That's christian theology and not
to be. Disputed the, wicked by, contrast do not persist,
forever and scripture makes it very clear that they perish
those other words used In psalm thirty seven to. Twenty

(01:33:56):
but the wicked shall, perish and the enemies of The,
lord or it shall be as the fat of lambs
they shall consume into, smoke shall they consume away even
more Powerfully malachi, four chapter, four verse. One surely the
day is, Coming it will burn like a. Furnace all

(01:34:19):
the arrogant in every evil doer will be, stubble and
the day that is coming will set them on. Fire
now you might, say, well there's, Hell but what does fire.
Do does it? Burn eternally? Consumes it, consumes and then
it goes out when there's nothing left to. Burn it
puts itself out every single, time and then what's left, stubble,

(01:34:44):
right not a root or a branch will be left to.
Them doesn't say anything about this eternal soul that gets
to escape at. All but for you who revere my,
name the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its,
rays and you will go out and frolic like well fed.
Calves in other, words you will have the abundance of.

(01:35:04):
Life the contrast here is life versus, death being versus non,
being existence versus non, existence nothing about happiness versus. Suffering
then you will trample on the. Wicked they will be
ashes under the soles of your feet on the day

(01:35:24):
WHEN i act, ashes not existing things that are, suffering
but the remnants of something that was consumed is no.
LONGER i think it's pretty clear there. Annihilationism an annihilationism
fits naturally into The hebrew. Anthropology, okay while eternal conscious

(01:35:48):
torment reflects more of The platonic influences and what we
adopted As christians through that. Influence in conditional, Mortality i'm,
sorry inconditional, immortality which is something that is another thing
that we could throw into. This immortality is a gift

(01:36:10):
granted By, god but is not intrinsic to the creative being.
Himself so in a, sense you could say THAT i
believe in conditional. IMMORTALITY i believe that a body can
be made immortal by the grace Of, god BUT i
do not believe it is intrinsic to or a, being
rather not the, body but a being whatever you want to.

(01:36:33):
Say the being. Is some people think they're not their.
Body they think how many times you hear these new
agers say you're a spiritual being having a physical. Experience that's.
Bullshit that does not fit into anything that is part
of The jewish. Tradition it is a pagan. Concept why
they like it so much most likely because a lot
of their views are pagan, adoptions and this is where

(01:36:59):
it comes. From, okay this is what it. Is BUT i,
mean As, christians we believe That god can grant, immortality
but we are not inherently. Immortal god could be. Immortal
that's a very arrogant thing for us to even assume
that we could be immortal by. Nature maybe we were

(01:37:19):
originally designed to be, immortal but we gave that up
with the. Fall hence why death came into the, world
and we took death here with us because now everything, dies, animals,
plants the whole damn. Thing let's look at some more
scriptural foundations for this. Viewpoint of, course there are scripture
for the more traditional. View we'll talk a little bit

(01:37:40):
about that if there's. Time but In matthew ten twenty,
Eight jesus warns not to fear those who can kill the,
body but the one who can destroy destroy both soul and.
Body And gehinnah doesn't use the word hell. Here ghanna
has never translated as. Hell hannah is called again because

(01:38:01):
there's no other word for. It it is a trash
dump outside of the walls Of jerusalem where there were
constant burning, fires because that's where the trash was. Burnt
he's comparing those a, damned those that will reject salvation
to this trash dump where they are going to be,

(01:38:25):
destroyed not, tortured destroyed and both soul and. Body doesn't
say just the body and the soul will go on
to have to suffer, forever says. DESTROY i think that's pretty.
Clear what's that word? There, okay this is even, BETTER i, think,
okay this this, implies in my, opinion total Destruction john

(01:38:49):
three point. Sixteen those who do not believe. Perish eternal
life is contrasted here with, death not. Torment because what's
The greek word that used, here a? Polymy what is
that word translate? To, well we use the word, perish

(01:39:10):
but In greek it can mean to, destroy to, kill to,
ruin to, lose to, perish or to be, lost to
no longer. EXIST i think we're stretching the definition a
lot when we, say, well it can also mean to.

(01:39:30):
Lose so that's what he meant. HERE i think that
there were in other words that could have been. Used
that's not what was. Used because In matthew chapter, two verse,
Thirteen herod seeks to Destroy. Jesus the word that's used
to Destroy, jesus the slaughter of the Innocence apolymy Perish

(01:40:00):
matthew eight twenty. Five the disciples Cry lord save us
we are. PERISHING a polymy is used Final judgment Ten
matthew ten twenty. Eight god can destroy both soul and
body And gehenna a. Polymy Second thessalonians two, ten those

(01:40:20):
who refuse the truth perish a. Polymy but In luke
fifteen and here's the caveat, right this is where we
can get debate going the lost, sheep the lost coin
son you know here applies, lost not, annihilated and actually
restored once. FOUND a polyma is used there, too so

(01:40:44):
it can be used in a context of either restoration
or being lost but not, tortured not sent away to
be forever. Suffering it's not used in that. Context it's very.
Final In john three point, sixteen you, know not, perish

(01:41:08):
but have eternal. Life that's a polymy as. Well the
opposite of eternal life is not eternal life and. Torment
it is more clearly identified as destruction and. Perishing the
grammar is set up for life versus, death life versus,

(01:41:32):
perishing not life versus eternal. Suffering nowhere do we really
see that it can be extrapolated from a couple Of jesus's.
Parables but when a polym is used in The greek
it is final destruction of some. Kind and then when

(01:41:54):
you look at The gospel Of, john eternal life is
something that's granted to the, faithful some special gift that's
given back to. Them but those that Reject christ. Perish
that's how it's, Written that's how it's. Described, perish not,

(01:42:16):
tortured not sent in some you, know basement, somewhere to,
suffer to get out of the, way to be, removed.
Eradicated it's very, clear it's all. Throughout, look you got
to be you have to really stretch it to Find
dante's inferno in The, bible you're not going To and
it fits very much better with the final death that

(01:42:39):
we see later In romans six twenty. Three the wages
of sin is, death but the gift Of god is eternal.
Life once again death versus, life not torment versus. Bliss
and then we get to the most important part, Here
revelation twenty all, evil which Includes satan which includes, death And,

(01:43:05):
hades which is The greek term for Hell shaol is
The hebrew word for. Hell both are translated as hell
are cast into the lake of, fire which is not
referred to as hell in. Revelation but the second, death
why is it the second? Death because it is the final.

(01:43:27):
One there seems to be a process that happens when we,
die and that process seems to be that there is
some residual awareness of our pending, fate and THAT i
think is absolutely. Torturous THAT i would, say knowing that

(01:43:51):
you've lost your salvation in that, MOMENT i would, say
is absolutely. Horrific AND i think there is some fundamental
instinction awareness there as you look into the abyss and become.
It AND i think that's the, suffering that's the, torture

(01:44:12):
momentary glimpse into what you could have had and chose to.
Lose because let's not, Forget god doesn't send anyone to.
Hell this is Good Christian catholic theology as. Well god
sends no one to. Hell we send ourselves there when
we reject the grace that saves. Us that's not me,

(01:44:36):
being you, know an avant garde. Person that's orthodox. Theology. H,
Daniel chapter, twelve verse. Two some to each everlasting, life
others to shame and everlasting. Contempt contempt is the memory

(01:44:59):
or the result of the, instructure not necessarily an ongoing,
experience right the people that suffer at the hands of
or are punished rather at the hands of their misdeeds
don't see themselves in. Contempt it's everyone else that. Does,
Remember christians are a very legalistic. Group they like. Retribution

(01:45:24):
they like to have this feeling that those that do
wrong are going to get what's coming to. Them we
like the idea of punishment As. Christians we, shouldn't but we.
Do and we like the thought that people get what they.
Deserve that makes us happy for some. Reason AND i

(01:45:46):
think a lot of people would rather see someone who's
done a horrible thing like murder someone or hurt a
child or. SOMETHING i think a lot of people would
prefer to see that person rotten. Hell i've even. HERE i,
HOPE i hope you burn in. HELL i HOPE i
see you burning in. Hell you hear people say this
in courtrooms and other places where a criminal is being you,

(01:46:09):
know charged or you, know, sentenced, convicted, Whatever and yet
The christian response would BE i should pray for your.
Salvation that they don't want to share eternity with, them
they'd rather see them suffer and. Forever let's look at

(01:46:32):
some philosophical. Arguments So i've given you now some biblical. Evidence,
Here i've told you a few things that have led
to why annihilationism makes sense as a. System but more,
importantly now we should look at how this philosophically and

(01:46:54):
theologically comes. Together so a Quite as taught Of god's sustaining.
Presence To, quinas all creation exists only Because god continuously sustains.
It and Remember quitas, was you, know influence heavily By,
aristotle so that pagan influence is already. Part in, fact

(01:47:17):
a lot of this eternal soul stuff comes From. Aquinas,
Ironically aquinas is his own undoing here because we're going
to do a little philosophical deduction, here logical deduction here
at the, end and you'll see why it's. Problematic A quinas,
said This god is to all things the cause of.

(01:47:38):
Being if this divine influx were to, cease then all
things would at once cease to. Be in other, words
If god withdrew his presence fully from, something that thing
would cease to. Exist, Therefore hell cannot be fully separated From.
God and that's what The church says it. Is The
church defines hell as eternal separation From. God, therefore how

(01:48:01):
can you exist If god's not there to sustain. You
are you going to Say god's in, hell That god's still,
somewhere The Holy spirit's still a little bit in you
while you're burning and being tortured by the. Demons in
a metaphysical, sense that doesn't make. Sense it doesn't even
make sense in the theological, sense certainly not in a compassionate.

(01:48:23):
Sense to sustain souls in hell eternally is to allow
evil to persist, eternally which kind of goes against the
New heaven and the New earth In revelation twenty, one
where we're promised the total, renewal no more, death no more,
pain no more. Mourning if the damn exists, eternally then

(01:48:43):
that's not. True Then revelation's. Lying the word Of god is.
Lying if the damn exists, eternally evil and suffering would still.
Exist there would be no full. Restoration jesus would be
lying to. You, BEHOLD i come to make all things. New,
well apparently not not according to the magistarian of The Catholic,

(01:49:06):
church or any Other christian for that, matter because they're
very content to believe in eternal. HELL i don't see
how they. Can but this is why annihilation resolves this
evils remove permanently the second. Death think it's pretty. CLEAR
i think it's pretty. Clear read it again if you
don't believe, me its existence versus non. Existence, okay what's

(01:49:30):
the meaning of eternal eternal? Punishment Matthew chapter twenty five
to forty six refers to the permanence of the, result
not the ongoing. Experience it's like capital, punishment, right the
punishment is eternal in its, consequence but not for the.
Person get you, kill you execute a, criminal all, right
that is. Permanent there's no coming back from. It but

(01:49:51):
he's not going to know it. Forever as soon as he's,
dead he's. Gone he's. Gone but the punishment is. Forever,
therefore hell is. Forever hell is. Eternal hell is eternal
punishment in the sense that it's forever Without. God, yes
all of that's, true and The church teaches all of,

(01:50:13):
that AND i agree with all of. It but you
can't have a place where you dwell forever in this.
Torment that's where the. Lie that's what makes the contradiction
so profound that it would Make jesus a liar when
he says he comes to make all things new And
jesus a liar when we are to expect at The,

(01:50:35):
parisia the New heaven and The New. Earth let's talk
about the soul's. Immortality the soul may be immortal in,
substance but not necessarily in personal. Identity so another way
of looking at, this let's, say, okay the fathers of
The church are correct in. This you, know the maybe soul's.
Arm what's a soul? Though are we going to use

(01:50:56):
it in The jewish? Sense, well then, no it's not
immortal because we know that the soul is one. Thing
it's the body, too and therefore its bodies, die so
the soul must. Die so we have to reject The
jewish idea. Completely, okay, well We're, christians so we can do,
that and we're going to take some of our pagan
influence and, say, okay so let's Take plato And aristola

(01:51:17):
and say this is going to be good, because let's face,
it they went with this because of the. Metaphysics, okay
the metaphysics was better than What judaism. Had philosophical deduction was,
better so they liked. It so let's say for a, minute, then,
okay the soul is, immortal so let's take let's take.
It are we talking about the, numa we're talking about the,

(01:51:38):
psyche which ONE i don't know the semantics, matter but
we're not giving clarity on this that they're used. Interchangeably
no one's really making. Clear you're Mixing greek And jewish,
thought trying to make it make, sense using you, know
these deductions to become. Cohesive and the fact of the

(01:52:00):
matter is we don't have those. Answers so how do
we not know that it's not the num of the
breath Of? God and when we, die if we, perish
if we're, damned Then god just takes back his. Breath
it returns to. Him but that's not. You that's the
part Of god that makes you. Exist he leaves, you
you cease to. Be, thus even in that, context annihilationism

(01:52:22):
is the only, natural theological and logical. Deduction immortality is,
preserved but the wicked are destroyed because the immortality Of
god's life returns To. God but whatever made you you is. Gone,
now where's the biggest objection to this From? Christians why

(01:52:44):
do we still have a church that teaches that more
traditional place of hell in eternal torment and being consciously
aware of. It, well that's because Of luke, sixteen which
was a recent reading In mass couple a week or two,
ago was it Last. Mass that's the rich man In, lazarus,
Right that's often used to defend the eternal conscious torment

(01:53:07):
because the rich man's in torment and he, asked you,
know can Can lazarus dip his finger in the water
and quent trench my? Thirst but this reala THAT i
hate to say, it but when you read it in The,
greek it's talking About shaye Or, hades if you prefer
The greek Term, hades which is the intermediary state before

(01:53:29):
the final, judgment Not, gehennah which is the second. Death
it's after the Parasa. Gehennah prior to. That the Only
hell that is is sche that didn't go anywhere just
because we Became. Christian it wasn't like The jews got that.
WRONG i mean the horrowing Of, Hell jesus goes to

(01:53:51):
Shay oh to rescue those, there or at least those
in that, state restoring, them giving them the grace to be.
Restored and let's not forget that parables are very allegorical
in function as moral, warnings not metaphysical. Blueprints the very

(01:54:13):
church that Condemns protestants for being too literal took these
verses and made them. LITERAL i, mean you can't pick
the parts that you want to be literal and the
ones you want to be allegorical when it suits. You at,
LEAST i don't think you can. Remember In luke sixteen twenty,

(01:54:36):
three the text explicitly Says. Hades it's the equivalent Of,
shaoul all, right so it's the realm of the. Dead
it's Not. Gehennah and the word that is used almost
is always it's Never hades For. Gehenna gahenna is always
used in its own, state which why in Most English

(01:54:58):
bibles it's not translated into. Anything there's No english word
for Geh. Hannah but somehow we think of it all
as one big. Thing Jay, Old Kadi's, hell Go hannah
all the same. Thing they're. NOT i, Mean Haiti's hell
And jay all are they're the same. Thing gehenna is

(01:55:18):
Not gehenna is the final help what happens after the
fun the last. Judgment there is no eternal, punishment if
you want to call it, that until that, point and
the eternal part is that there's no coming back from,

(01:55:39):
it Unlike, shayoh WHERE i Mean jesus Harrowed, hell, right
so you can't come back from that, one even though
in that parable it there's the great chasm the way
you can't cross, over But jesus can act as a.
Bridge i'm not going to get into all Of abraham's

(01:56:04):
bosom and all. That there's not really enough. Time i'm
running kind of low right. Here we're almost at the
top of the next, hour AND i knew we would
get only so. Far, again that's not to be a metaphysical.
Map it's not to be a literal geography of the.
Afterlife that parable is a moral, story it's a teaching

(01:56:26):
and it should never have been looked at as a
atlas for what the afterlife looks. Like in, fact it
actually supports. Annihilation annihilation is not refuting it because of
the fact that it's referring To, hades Not. Gahanna The
greek word used there Is. HADES i want to BEFORE i,

(01:56:56):
go let me go a little bit over IF i have,
to before we take our next, break BECAUSE i just
want to talk about The church. Fathers the opinion is
of Many christian theologians today that The church fathers almost
universally believed in conscious. Torment that's not exactly. True there

(01:57:18):
was more open, debate maybe not to the greatest extent
as it could have, Been but there Was Saint gregory
Of nissa who possibly even held a universalist. View he
was very critical of eternal punishment and even suggested That
god's mercy would be such that everyone probably gets. Saved

(01:57:40):
there was another father of The, church Like, tensius who
suggested the wicked are destroyed after, judgment hence the second,
death Hence. Kahanna of, course there are different people that
interpret what he said. Differently there's modern theologians Like Edward,

(01:58:02):
fudge S John, Stott David Bentley hart that. Teach in,
Fact David Bentley heart's an interesting when he's An orthodox
theologian that's very critical of eternal, torment feels that it
doesn't coincide very well With god's. Mercy but, remember the

(01:58:26):
fathers of The church Were, HELLENIZED i mean they lived
in The hellenized. World in order For christianity to, survive
it had to find a vocabulary that worked within the
system that it existed. Within jewish thought would no longer

(01:58:48):
Be jewish mysticism would no longer be. Sufficient people are
do not live in a. Vacuum they were influenced and
they took those influences with them to how they interpreted The.
Bible does it make it infallibly? Correct? Not everything the

(01:59:10):
fathers of The church taught were written in stone to
the point that everyone knew it was true and everyone
agreed with. It it was just what The church finally settled.
On and because The, church by the time it made
these kinds of, decisions was basically A greek A Greco roman,
establishment no longer A jewish, one mostly populated By, pagans Former,

(01:59:36):
pagans Not. Jews that, naturally the metaphysics and philosophy and the,
language the semantics would have all come from The hellenized,
world not The jewish. One but that's not necessarily the
one That jesus came, from AND i find that. Problematic

(02:00:02):
can't pick and. Choose we have to go back to the.
Beginning we have to understand it from the. Beginning and
if we don't do, that then we're kind of hypocritical
when We that Makes catholics becoming cafeteria theologians, too picking
the parts they, like avoiding the parts they don't. Like

(02:00:26):
i'm not sure we can do that all, Right so
there's more to talk about. HERE i can go into
a little bit more on the weight of scripture if
you want more philosophical. Influences let's not forget, though fear
was a big. Factor fear was a big. Factor if
you let people know, that, well the worst that would

(02:00:48):
happen to you slights out and you'd cease to. Exist
that might not be as much of a motivator as
if you were going to be tortured for all. Eternity
so maybe to get people to do the right thing
and not, sin you needed to scare the ship out of.
Them and maybe annihilation wasn't scary, ENOUGH i. Think so
we'll be back after.

Speaker 16 (02:01:07):
This nothing laughing, up, nothing, nothing, nothing.

Speaker 1 (02:02:46):
Laughing, up.

Speaker 8 (02:02:50):
LAUGHING i felt the family lost, war shutting.

Speaker 12 (02:03:42):
TIME i was lost.

Speaker 8 (02:03:47):
To the fours him my.

Speaker 5 (02:03:49):
HEAD i got up.

Speaker 18 (02:03:51):
AGAIN i gotta get up to that.

Speaker 5 (02:03:56):
Outside couldn't give it up.

Speaker 14 (02:03:59):
Again AND.

Speaker 4 (02:04:01):
I gotta get.

Speaker 6 (02:04:02):
UP i gotta get.

Speaker 12 (02:04:04):
OUT i gotta up.

Speaker 18 (02:04:06):
AGAIN i GOT i get.

Speaker 5 (02:04:10):
Up to we gotta. Jay i'm not giving it up.

Speaker 19 (02:04:14):
AGAIN i got.

Speaker 5 (02:04:17):
UP i gotta get, up GOTT i get up.

Speaker 19 (02:04:21):
Scared looking to my, eyes.

Speaker 14 (02:05:17):
My heart's liking.

Speaker 10 (02:05:19):
Trumple you listen to the lads.

Speaker 5 (02:05:25):
Love so.

Speaker 14 (02:05:27):
You love this.

Speaker 2 (02:05:28):
Funding out of speed up like kissing out of.

Speaker 14 (02:05:31):
See he likes.

Speaker 5 (02:05:32):
Cos me and.

Speaker 1 (02:05:33):
Desponding somebody just goes.

Speaker 14 (02:05:35):
On gutting out of speed up like kissing out of.

Speaker 12 (02:05:39):
See he likes coss me and.

Speaker 20 (02:05:41):
Desponding somebody just, Gone CAN i d up the? Game
and CAT i get up to let. It i'm jugging
it up, again calling, Up i'm getting get, Up i'm
going to.

Speaker 5 (02:05:58):
Get i'm gonna get, up, sir.

Speaker 10 (02:07:00):
Sessus ssssssssssssssssst.

Speaker 2 (02:07:56):
People all, Right welcome back everyone to the third and

(02:08:49):
final hour Of vestiges After, dark where we will be
now unpacking some of, this taking your. QUESTIONS i already
see some good ones in the chat. There you can
call into the show at two oh seven five four
four nineteen eighty three if you'd like to ask a,
question or we can just take questions directly from the.
Chat but there's still more to a. BIT i think
i'm pack. Here i'm going to give a short closing

(02:09:12):
statement THAT i didn't really have time for before the,
break and then we're going to just jump right into.

Speaker 13 (02:09:17):
That.

Speaker 2 (02:09:18):
Okay i'm sure a lot of you have thoughts of your,
own and this, is you, know the point of this
kind of discussions why we have a show like. This
so hold all YOUR i, mean get all your thoughts
out there into the chat And brandon will collect them
and we'll do as best we can to answer all of.

Speaker 14 (02:09:34):
Them is.

Speaker 1 (02:10:37):
That the man.

Speaker 10 (02:10:43):
Is that a man.

Speaker 5 (02:10:50):
Is no.

Speaker 1 (02:10:50):
Man.

Speaker 2 (02:11:19):
Okay so WHAT i want to kind of conclude with,
here based upon The last hours breakdown of the theology
or the theological position that we call, annihilationism which is
one THAT i personally have adopted for, myself and As i've,
stated is not the official teaching of The, church ALTHOUGH

(02:11:40):
i would argue that it's not inconsistent with what the church.
Teaches it's just a more complete explanation for what The
church already. Teaches AS i already, indicated the eternal nature
of it is a, fact but that doesn't mean consciously.
Eternal the idea of hell being something that happens that

(02:12:01):
people can lose salvation.

Speaker 10 (02:12:04):
Is.

Speaker 2 (02:12:05):
CORRECT i don't see any conflict. There the issue THAT
i AS i see it in the way that it
breaks down for me and it's very clear to, ME i,
think is that you have a Very jewish spirituality being
adopted by a Very hellenized world being left in the

(02:12:26):
hands OF i, mean really the once The apostles, died
it became a Largely greek. System, yes there were Still
jews here and, there BUT i mean it became it
Was christianity was much more popular in The greek world
than ever was in The jewish, world and so and

(02:12:46):
it is still that. WAY i, mean let's face. It
so what happened is you have the fathers of The
church then taking, over and they were the more, instrumental
instrumental they were the more instrumental parts of what became
The christianity that we know, today the more formal. Church
and they were Very hellenized, people and they were very intellectual.

(02:13:09):
People And aristotle And plato were very intellectual systems for
very educated people to absorb themselves, in very different from
the kind Of jewish world That jesus came. From and,
naturally people are going to find a way to try
to adapt what they believe in to what they. Know

(02:13:31):
and that was happening because that was the, philosophy was
the science of the ancient, world they didn't have science
like we have. Today it didn't come to like The
age Of enlightenment about the fifteen hundreds or. So we
didn't really have science like we have. Today science was
philosophy that was the actual observational fact of the. Age
and so they were kind of like the scientists trying to, say,
WELL i believe In, jesus but how do we explain

(02:13:53):
crazy things like. Resurrection so what they did is they
did it philosophically and they tried to explain, Things, well
we believe in the so we always, have so we
have to explain where does it go if you're? Damned
and then they had to kind of find a way
to integrate. That and then later as time went on
and they, developed then they realized that if they if
they kept or adopted the Purely jewish system of lights,

(02:14:14):
out well then where's the motivation to be a better,
person where's the motivation to try to avoid helps strive
for salvation when maybe annihilation is not so bad if
that's what it ends up. Being and so fear of
hell became a strong motivator to get people to not

(02:14:35):
sin and to do what the church wanted them to,
do and so a lot of that played a role.
Here whether we like it or, not it, did and
it influenced how the theology. Works and then the church
has their little caveat. That you, know it's hard to
kind of refute and not sound like a, heretic but
you know the opinion of The Catholic church is that
the magisterium is always inspired by The Holy, spirit and

(02:14:59):
then under The pope practically infallibly so when he speaks ex.
Cathedra so not THAT i don't think there's an ex
cathedral's statement on, this BUT i think the fact of
the matter is that when you have this idea that
as long as you're ruling together on a theological, point

(02:15:19):
and then that must be in The Holy spirit agrees with,
you and so this must be the way it. IS
i think that's a. FALLACY i think we can say
that we can trust this as the right, direction BUT
i think that's as far as we can. GO i
think to say anything is absolutely infallibly. True maybe this
is my independent Old catholic background coming through, now BUT

(02:15:44):
i think as soon as you start saying that something
is infallibly, true you have crossed the line into pride
and that's where error starts to come into the. Equation
AND i think that's where we're at with. This SO i,
think DO i say that you need to be in an? Viihilationists,
No BUT i don't think you can say that a
person a person who's an annihilation is against The church's.

(02:16:07):
Teaching so go, ahead, Father, sorry.

Speaker 6 (02:16:10):
Can you don't see the irony of accusing ecumenical counsels
of pride whilst putting forth your opinion in this?

Speaker 4 (02:16:20):
MANNER i, mean you know you're allowed to do, It,
hey go for.

Speaker 9 (02:16:24):
It but.

Speaker 2 (02:16:26):
You don't think it's prideful for the church to declare
something as infallibly. True you don't think that's.

Speaker 6 (02:16:32):
Pride i've not prepared an essay to respond to your.

Speaker 4 (02:16:36):
Essays, well but NOTHING.

Speaker 2 (02:16:38):
I said is infallibly. TRUE i don't think of it
AS i think of it as the logical next logical,
conclusion AND i based it only on what we said last,
week that If jesus makes all things, new as he,
said and If jesus promises that there will be the
old earth and the old heaven will pass away and
it will be replaced with a new heaven and New,
earth and. Recreation creation will be restored to its rich,

(02:17:00):
condition and creation is, everything and then anything that's not
creation doesn't. Exist THEN i don't see logically where you put,
hell because then you didn't restore, creation because you still
have this awful place of imperfection. Somewhere SO i don't
see how you can reconcile. That that's my primary.

Speaker 6 (02:17:23):
ISSUE i, MEAN i think, though for, example annihilation is
an annihilation is in itself presents a. Difficulty i've got
some sympathy with with what you just said by the word,
sure but it provides another. Problem, okay because just as
we say it's correct to say to speak of heaven and, hell,

(02:17:45):
purgatory whatever aus, places and we've said this a lot
is a category, error right you. Know so now the
problem is it's very hard for us to imagine something
that's not a, place because we're four dimensional.

Speaker 4 (02:17:58):
Beings so.

Speaker 6 (02:18:01):
So accepting that whatever whatever realms of existence there, are
even and to be.

Speaker 4 (02:18:07):
Annihilated, itself.

Speaker 6 (02:18:10):
Would suggest there's a there's a state of non, being
an uncreated state in Which, god which is which is
not present To, god which would be to Undermine.

Speaker 4 (02:18:25):
God's.

Speaker 2 (02:18:26):
Self, well but you would have to argue though Would god?
Not does Not god not already know of all of
the other possibilities that don't.

Speaker 4 (02:18:34):
Exist but What i'm saying, is though if and by the, way.

Speaker 6 (02:18:42):
It does allow for In, jewish In hebrew, understanding it
allows for ort to. Destruction but actually that's that's that's,
less that's the least use of that.

Speaker 4 (02:18:55):
Language it also allows for eternal. Suffering So.

Speaker 6 (02:19:02):
Matthew twenty, five you, Know jesus himself the word made flesh,
says if you didn't visit, me you, know visit the,
imprisoned and feed the, hungry you'll go off to the eternal,
fire you.

Speaker 2 (02:19:14):
Know but it is an eternal, fire it's. Just but
the question is not whether or not it lasts, forever
or the reconsequence of it lasts. Forever the question is
whether or not you have to experience it. Forever and
it doesn't.

Speaker 6 (02:19:28):
Qualify that still doesn't solve the problem of the of
of Of presupposing there is a state of being or
non a state of non being in Which god is not.

Speaker 2 (02:19:38):
PRESENT i, mean But god is not present where something
does not, exist, though so everything that does not, exist
like letk TAKE i don't, know take take. Jealiporeles what are.
JEALIPOREALS i don't. Know they don't. Exist Does god exist
in that state where jealiporeles? Aren't think so because they're not.

(02:20:01):
Existent so If god removed something from, existence why Would
god have to still exist? THERE i don't see why
that would be.

Speaker 6 (02:20:09):
Necessary but we're not speaking about you know some you,
know a random object we're talking about As genesis one
says human beings creating the imagine likeness Of, god And
god is. Eternal so human beings are created, eternal.

Speaker 2 (02:20:28):
But we created death and changed.

Speaker 5 (02:20:29):
That, well.

Speaker 6 (02:20:33):
But that's been, restored you, know the option To. Christ,
yeah but the option, too but we don't have to take.
It but, LOOK i THINK i think that the the
ISSUE i have with this is is and you alluded
to it a second. AGO i don't want to get
too involve BECAUSE i want to have other questions to
So i'll back off after.

Speaker 9 (02:20:54):
This but.

Speaker 6 (02:20:59):
Was, yeah if what we're saying, is, well, okay we're
going to make a, contextual contextual argument as in our
well this entered into The greek, worll WHICH i. Accept
all of that is, true but all hinges on Is
Jesus Christ. God If Jesus christ Is, god Then god

(02:21:23):
chose to, incarnate come into the world at that particular
point in time for a, reason and to leave us
not with an extensive instruction, manual but with flesh and
blood people to continue the life of The. Church and
we either accept that The Holy, spirit Which he, promised

(02:21:43):
has guided that church through the ages to reveal, truth
or we, don't because, otherwise how could we know baptism is?
Real how could we know The eucharist is? Real how
could we know forgiveness is?

Speaker 2 (02:21:58):
Real, WELL i, SAY i mean that that's that's, true
AND i AND i don't say WHAT i said to
suggest that that that that that the, magisterium the fathers
of The, church you, know the ecumenical counselors are not
all inspired by The Holy. Spirit BUT i see it
in the same sense that The bible is inspired by
The Holy. Spirit that it does not make something. Absolute

(02:22:27):
it leads one in the best direction. Available AND i
don't think even all of the bishops of the world
and all of the popes that ever, were could ever
be perfect enough to direct the church absolutely to.

Speaker 6 (02:22:47):
Listen it's also true to say that the t loss
of The church is to is to push towards things
that lead to life With.

Speaker 2 (02:22:55):
God and better understanding of what that.

Speaker 4 (02:22:57):
Means not not not to expend so much time on you.

Speaker 6 (02:23:00):
Know, yeah.

Speaker 4 (02:23:06):
SO i kind OF i accept, That.

Speaker 6 (02:23:09):
But you, Know i'm always very wary of Playing bible.
BINGO i, MEAN i could pick out and, have BUT
i won't thrust them upon the. Audience bible Passage i've mentioned,
one But bible passages that really do affirm the immortality
of the soul.

Speaker 2 (02:23:29):
Name some of. THEM i, Mean i'm not Saying i'm
not saying.

Speaker 4 (02:23:33):
NOT i, mean what's That revelation fourteen? Eleven you, know
so this is you, know when the message is the three.
Angels you, Know i've got it. Here hang, on the
smoke of their tournament goes up.

Speaker 6 (02:23:49):
Forever there's no rest day or night for those who
worship the beast and its, image and for anyone who
receives the brand of its.

Speaker 4 (02:23:55):
Name hang, on where is it? Here hang?

Speaker 15 (02:24:01):
On?

Speaker 4 (02:24:04):
Uh we find.

Speaker 2 (02:24:10):
It he's, looking, folks he's. Looking.

Speaker 6 (02:24:19):
Yeah, yeah there's no rest day on night for those
who worship the beastness. Image for anyone who sees a
brand its, name hang, On i'm in the wrong chapter
that wouldn't help with.

Speaker 2 (02:24:29):
IT i hate when that.

Speaker 6 (02:24:31):
Happened, yeah, yeah and the smoke of their torment goes
up forever and. Ever so, Sorry i'll go before. It
then another angel third followed, them crying with a loud.
Voice those who worshiped The beastness image and receive the
brand on their foreheads or on their. Hands they will

(02:24:54):
also drink the wine Of god's wrath poured unmixed into
the cup of his. Anger and they will be tormented
with the fire and saw from the presence of The
holy angels and in the presence of The, lamb and
the smoke of their torment goes up forever and, ever
not until a certain point where they've had, enough and
then they're.

Speaker 4 (02:25:09):
Annihilated SO i.

Speaker 2 (02:25:12):
Mean it's always referred to though in a sense of,
burning you. Know, yeah that there's and and what.

Speaker 4 (02:25:24):
The orthodox vision of.

Speaker 6 (02:25:25):
Heaven by the, way, yes BECAUSE i, mean you, Know
i'm quite happy to separate out the sort of judicial
approach that The Western church takes to.

Speaker 2 (02:25:35):
This. Right, YES.

Speaker 4 (02:25:37):
I think that two things can be true at. Once
that can be an unhelpful allegory for our, times but
also it can be. True so.

Speaker 11 (02:25:48):
The.

Speaker 6 (02:25:48):
Orthodoxy The eastern approach has been less. JURIDICAL i, mean,
basically their definition of hell is failed, theosis right, right you,
know Which i'm very happy with. THIS i think this
is and by the, WAY i think A catholic can definitely,
WELL i Know cathous can definitely believe this and be Faithful.

Speaker 4 (02:26:03):
Catholics so it's failed. Theosis and.

Speaker 6 (02:26:09):
The reason that hell is eternal is because it's the
Same i'm going to use this word, again which is,
problematic the same place as, heaven because The orthodox teaching
is that heaven is eternal like truth and goodness for
those who have achieved, theosis those who have Loved god
and molded themselves into his image right with his, Help

(02:26:31):
and it's the same place for those who have, not
who have failed in theosis or Rejected, god and for,
them they're experiencing the very same, thing except they experience
it as eternal fire and.

Speaker 2 (02:26:43):
FLAME i don't see how that that can be reconciled
with the New heaven and the New. EARTH i don't
see how you can have a perfect restored creation and
still have this entire population continuously. Suffering NOW i can
accept that in the allegorical, sense WHICH i think the

(02:27:03):
Entire book Of revelation is essentially that we. Can't it's
not a digital. Map, again it's not a it's not
an atlas of the. Afterlife so you know the fact
that it's referred to as, burning.

Speaker 4 (02:27:15):
But therefore none of the rest of the scriptures is. Either, WELL.

Speaker 2 (02:27:21):
I don't think you. CAN i don't think you can
use parables in that, sense BUT i think you can
use the moral of the parable in a literal. Sense
SO i think the moral here is that it is
not an absolutism that that, says, well this is the
evidence that we now have in immortal soul that's going

(02:27:41):
to be tortured for all eternity if we don't get.
SAVED i think the moral here is that it. Will
it will have a, permanent lasting result that is not
is not is, irrevocable that there's no coming back from.
This you could interpret that a multitude of, ways BUT

(02:28:04):
i think it's a stretch to, say, well it must
mean Because plato said the soul is, eternal it must
mean that we are aware of, it because the burning
is just. Destruction burning is always destruction in the literal.
Sense so if we're going to take the part of this.
Burning and it's literally.

Speaker 6 (02:28:23):
Because they're talking about they're talking about the fire that
actually does not do.

Speaker 2 (02:28:26):
That you, know, well the fire, burns but doesn't say
the person's. Burning it says the fire. Burns f and,
yeah because there's always it's always going to be forever consuming.

Speaker 4 (02:28:35):
Evil, well and fire is also used as the image of, purgation,
right and, purification the refiner's, fire you know. That the,
yeah the refiners the same, thing, purgation. Purification but it's like.

Speaker 2 (02:28:48):
It's the fire that. LASTS i don't ever see the,
people you, know it's the, consequence, yes BUT i think
it could just as easily and even more so based
upon some of the things THAT i shared. Tonight in
scripture is more compatible with the, world The hebrew world
That jesus comes out of than The greek world that's

(02:29:09):
trying to be adopted to.

Speaker 6 (02:29:10):
It In mark, Nine jesus talks about the place where
the fire is not, quenched where the worm does not.
Die so it does suggest that the living things forever
within this fire that don't.

Speaker 2 (02:29:27):
DIE i, MEAN i think though that you can take
it that, way but that's an isolation to the greater
body of context where he talks about the eternal in

(02:29:47):
perishing and referred to it as, death where it's not
talked about as living in. DEATH i, mean it seems
like in my sense that that would be an irreconcilable,
thing that you could be, dead that your punishment for
sin is, death but you're not really. Dead you're dead

(02:30:07):
in some metaphorical, sense but not the literal. One it's,
like but, yeah we're using the literal the the metaphorical
language for everything. Else it seems like it's a lot
of unnecessary picking and choosing and trying to fit it
into the.

Speaker 8 (02:30:24):
World is what's the?

Speaker 6 (02:30:25):
Objection what's the objection for the New heaven and The New,
earth which is the ultimate t loss of, things the
New heaven in The New earth being, renewed, regenerated, whatever
a new creation That god does And hell existing at
the same.

Speaker 4 (02:30:41):
Time why those things not possible to exist at the same.

Speaker 2 (02:30:44):
Time, well Because hell would have to be a created
place free. Will, well, Well hell would have to be
a created. Place it would have to be part of,
creation which means it has to. Exist and if you're
if you're saying that that creation is being restored to
its original state of. Perfection then we're in. Creation are

(02:31:04):
you going to be able to keep this imperfection and
still say it's all?

Speaker 6 (02:31:07):
Perfect because we also believe in the, uncreated not just the.
Creative so you're saying hell is an uncreated. PLAY i,
Mean i'm not, Well i'm saying that that UNCREATED i, mean,
Really i'm siding With orthodoxy elosions on. THIS i mean
The i'm saying that that uncreated, light which is heaven

(02:31:29):
to those who you know who Love, god is hell
to those that, don't and that's why it's eternal and
it absolutely.

Speaker 2 (02:31:37):
Affirs so you're saying that that the torture is that
you don't want to be With, god but you're stuck
with them now.

Speaker 6 (02:31:43):
Forever if you Hate, god what would be the, worst
most torturous place for you to?

Speaker 4 (02:31:49):
Be the place where all.

Speaker 2 (02:31:51):
CREATION i can accept that as as pretty, Good but
that doesn't sound like it's a restored perfection to. Me
that sounds like you've got you've got the seed for
another kind of fall in some other universe, somewhere you.
KNOW i, mean it's like we, could we, could we
could try to come in and try to figure out
how did the fall, happen and so the church uses
all of, this you, Know enochian kind of worldview where

(02:32:16):
there was a war in heaven Because satan was jealous
and he took a bunch of other angels with him
and he was cast out in, fall and then he comes.
Back he's jealous of man Because god made us in
some way better than the, angels because we're we've got
a part Of, him and so he wants to destroy that.
Too now he wants to destroy all of. Creation and

(02:32:37):
so that's the kind of allegory that Some christians take
as actual. History and and and where did that fall come? From,
well you had a bunch of unhappy people being stuck With.
God and so it's like if you're going to have that,
again it's, like we're just gonna keep falling all over.
Again so what are we gonna have to Have jesus
two point, zero like several billion years from. NOW i mean,

(02:32:59):
it that's to a point where either things are, restored
not either they're perfect or they're.

Speaker 5 (02:33:03):
Not you know WHAT i.

Speaker 4 (02:33:05):
MEAN i will shout up and allow some of the questions.

Speaker 21 (02:33:11):
To, say one more, thing there is a difference Between
there is a difference between angels and humans we felt
we felt too though we KNOW i, know but but
in terms in terms of the fall of the angels
and and for the fall of, man there are two different.

Speaker 6 (02:33:35):
Things we know that there has been a remedy for
the fall of man in In god condescending to take
on human form and suffer and die and rise.

Speaker 4 (02:33:43):
Again and So i'm not sure it's not the same.
Substance BUT i don't we we really could.

Speaker 14 (02:33:54):
Have, yeah we need a.

Speaker 5 (02:33:56):
Part thank.

Speaker 3 (02:33:56):
You guys should do a part, too and have a healthy.
Debate we're both of you can do your research and
have your points brand.

Speaker 2 (02:34:02):
WELL i know WHAT i, mean it's it's NOT i
don't even see this as a. DEBATE I i kind
of see this as as sort of the philosophic points.

Speaker 3 (02:34:08):
FORWARD i, mean this is what this, is what it's.
About this is what different points of view and different different.
Resources this is a.

Speaker 2 (02:34:15):
Lot of What nicea was. Like you, know you had
you had all these these these people that were you,
know had. Difference, yeah and that's what that's how The
church arrived at some of its. Conclusions, SO i, MEAN
i don't even see this.

Speaker 4 (02:34:30):
Council you can bring your points of views it on.

Speaker 18 (02:34:32):
There you go with, You.

Speaker 2 (02:34:33):
BRANDON i know there's some open. DATES i don't know
what you have in store for, those or if you've
even booked, them but if, there's if there's an open
date to do a part, two so that we can
just continue this line of, thought because we're not going
to obviously get through everyone's thought, tonight and certainly not
Father Chris is and. Myself so we want to get
some questions from THE. Us but if you can find,

(02:34:55):
it let me. Know you don't have to say it right.
Now we can talk about, it you, know on the.
Network BUT i know That riverboat there's a call on the.
Line i'm gonna just if you can hear me right,
now stay.

Speaker 3 (02:35:06):
On signed?

Speaker 2 (02:35:09):
Off But riverboat did he did he sign?

Speaker 3 (02:35:11):
Off you said good night just a minute or two.

Speaker 2 (02:35:13):
Ago he said he'll catch up. Tomorrow so we can
still answer his. Question so he, said, Uh i'm not
sure IF i can formulate this as a. Question given
the character, limitations the fear of hell has been used
to keep folks in, check it seems obvious to me
that a lot of folks don't have any fear of.
Hell if they, do they seem to believe that their, hateful,

(02:35:34):
selfish hurtful actions will be judged differently than a sane
Person christian might judge. Them is ignorance of the rules
an excuse to not spend eternity and? HELL i would
say that it definitely. Does unlike the way the law
works in most, COUNTRIES i would say that it does

(02:35:54):
lower one's, culpability particularly if one's conscience direct one erroneously
to make the wrong. Conclusion we are going.

Speaker 4 (02:36:05):
To say natural law and conscience of the guide here they.

Speaker 2 (02:36:07):
Are so it's not like when you commit a crime
and you didn't know you committed a. Crime you can't
use that in law as an excuse for not being.
Punished you will still go to jail or get a
fine or whatever it is that you, did regardless of
whether or not you knew it was a. Problem but With,
god culpability, matters and culpability is very much measured according

(02:36:31):
to one's, understanding one's, capacity and one's conscience and how
that is being. Directed we have yea an intent of. Course,
Yes so even regardless of whether or not you like
the more a nihilationist view Of hell or the more traditional,
one the result of how one would find themselves in

(02:36:53):
either condition is very much depended upon that. Culpability so
to answer the question as ignorance is somewhat of a,
defense but it has to be a genuine, ignorance and
it truly has to be their conscience directing, them not
not them trying to finagle a way. Around, yeah not wishful,

(02:37:16):
thinking right.

Speaker 6 (02:37:17):
Right, Okay so you, know seeing somebody with a nice
gold watch that you want and murdering them to take
it from. Them you don't need The bible Or georgia
or anybody else to tell you that's.

Speaker 2 (02:37:28):
Wrong, yeah that's. Wrong, yeah exactly. Exactly, So, oh he's still.
Here so Hopefully riverboat you heard my. ANSWER i don't
know if you need to follow up to, that but
go ahead and do so if you want. To in the,
Meantime i'm going to take this call from the four
six nine area, code which is A dallas phone. Number,
hello you are on the.

Speaker 9 (02:37:46):
Ear, Hey Bishop, Brian it's Me. Jason i'm not sure
if you guys remember me from the last messages after.

Speaker 2 (02:37:56):
Dark, oh, Yes, JASON i, DO i do remember.

Speaker 9 (02:37:59):
One. Yeah i've been wanting to ask so Recently i've
been watching your your demonology videos and you, know you,
know all that good stuff that you've been putting. Out
And i've had like a really like insane burning question to.
Ask but AGAIN i don't really have many you Know
christian friends or or you know people like that THAT

(02:38:22):
i could ask this question. Too and you, KNOW i,
thought you, know why not A Bishop, Brian, Right SO
i was just, thinking SO i just want to get
into the area of you, know gemonology and, spirits, uh
more than. Anything And i've been looking through and you

(02:38:43):
know how there isn't really like a mainstream like you,
Know christian religion where they're liberally. Mentioned you, know spirits
has been the types where it's like a modern stance of,
spirits you, know you, know the ghosts and stuff like.
That and AND i mean specifically how in Some christian,
traditions you, know there's like some form of belief in some.

(02:39:09):
Traditions this isn't like you, know mainstream you, know teaching
from the church for, spirits you, know and you, know
you know the spirits where they well they have a
belief where sometimes you, know they come back and go
and you, know haunt it dead and and they go
like conca like living and stuff like. That and sometimes

(02:39:29):
it has to do with you, know spirits coming back
because of the guilt they, have like a death that's
still sudden and or like you, know a suicide for.
Example And i've been thinking on what's your stance on
OR i really want your opinion on what you think
about you, know the whole spirits and you know what
The bible says, about, uh you know regarding all that,

(02:39:53):
stuff and you know how the main churches don't really
have like a certain teaching for. It BUT i wanted
to know your opinion and how A christian should approach
experience and you, know stuff like that if it's the
case that The christian believes in.

Speaker 2 (02:40:09):
It, YEAH i, MEAN i think this is really actually
a very good question to ask in relation to what
we've been talking here, tonight because this is another, example
in my, opinion of The church taking a paradigm and
sort of glossing over earlier traditions in order to make it.
FIT i think the fact that so much A christianity

(02:40:31):
does not have a framework for the belief of ghosts
or the belief in, ghosts because there is this, adamance
almost pretentious view that it's to, heaven the hell with,
you and there's no other option in. Between they even reject,
purgatory most of the Most christians do. So the idea
that there could be even another, state a limbo or

(02:40:54):
something of that, nature where the dead might not have
moved on IS i think another example of where certainly they.
Do they did believe In jesus's time in. Ghosts they
Thought jesus was a ghost when he was walking on.
Water they so clearly they. Already that proves that the

(02:41:15):
culture itself already had a. Framework there was no concern
about the fact, that you know the fact that, well
ghosts can't. Exist, no it wasn't like, that or like
How christians today say that there are no, ghosts they're
just demons pretending to be. People that's nonsense. TOO i
know from my work that that is absolutely. Nonsense there's,
also you, know the idea that the. Resurrection you, know

(02:41:39):
the whole point That thomas and they make a big
deal of this is putting his fingers through the nail.
Marks it's not so much Because thomas doubts and has
TO i, mean that is a moral lesson, there but
it more importantly is to prove to us the reader
for posterity that this was the actual body that was
on the. Cross it wasn't a, ghost it wasn't some spiritual,

(02:42:00):
Apparition it was really. Him so the framework for ghosts
is all throughout The. Bible there's Obviously saul and that whole.
Fiasco that again there's modern pastors that, SAY, o well
that was just a demon pretending. Too but this is
again the church or people of the church trying to
make their paradigms. FIT i personally don't have, paradigms and

(02:42:23):
WHEN i, DO i try to get rid of. Them
SO i, mean, yes we always develop paradigms that make
us think certain, ways and we create biases off those.
Paradigms SO i spend most of my, time most of
my spiritual, development is working on eliminating and dismantling those
paradigms so THAT i don't fall victim to any particular,

(02:42:44):
bias AND i can see all points of view and
judge them.

Speaker 9 (02:42:50):
In.

Speaker 2 (02:42:50):
Isolation instead of being based upon WHAT i want to
believe or WHAT i hope are, true or WHAT i
morally think is. RIGHT i would rather just see things
as they are then and then we go from. There
so when it comes to things like like like The
church looking at, ghosts, well that's exactly what they. Did
it doesn't fit into the paradigm. Anymore so we're just
going To we're going to say it's all. Demons we're

(02:43:12):
gonna have an. Excuse AND i think that's what, happened,
honestly with with the immortality of the. SOUL i don't
think they could give up The platonic. PARADIGM i don't
think they could adopt The jewish, one AND i think
they rejected it on that. Basis and because there were
so many people Of greek background influenced By plato And

(02:43:35):
aristotle by the point that The church became The, church
that it was very easy to, say, well we got
an immortal soul, now you, know and just completely glass
over Shay all and the way The jewish world looked at,
that there was no way to separate soul and. Body
so in this, sense and, remember even ghosts in The

(02:43:58):
bible were not not like real people walking around who
were consciously aware they were just they were. Shades they
were just, shadows remnants of the people they, were but
not really, existing which is incidentally what ghosts really. Are
by the, way in my, experience you, know WHEN i
do this, work this is HOW i encounter, them, shadows

(02:44:19):
echoes that you can kind of communicate with that relay
information of of something that once was but is actually no.
Longer there is no conscious thought in these. Ghosts SO
i would say to answer your question that you're okay
accepting and believing this as you see. Fit it does

(02:44:39):
not contradict anything in scripture to say that ghosts. Exists
there's nothing there that says you thou shall not believe in,
ghosts or that there's some kind of heretical belief. Here
the problem that you're going to run into is just
The christian that, says, well you're being tricked by. Demons
that's Just i'm, sorry that's just not the way it.

(02:45:02):
Is it is Not most of our work is not
even dealing with. Demons most of our work is putting
to rest these things that we call. Ghosts, yeah they
can behave like, demons they can act like, them but
they are not. Them they are not fallen angels in
the sense of what we understand that theologically to. Be
SO i don't think there's a problem, there but you're

(02:45:23):
gonna have a hard time finding a church that's willing
to accept. That but keep in mind that in The Catholic,
church there's really not a hard fast opinion that the
church doesn't talk about. Ghosts, Really Thomas aquinas. DID i
think he even reported a ghost. Experience If i'm not,
Mistaken i'd have to go back and. Check, yeah look at.

(02:45:45):
It i'm pretty sure it Was Thomas aquinas that. Did
but there have been doctors of The church that have
had paranormal experiences in the classic sense that we're not,
angels are demons and not apparitions of older saints are
divine and tea's like you, know the you, know manifestations
of of Of jesus or. Something it really was a ghost,

(02:46:07):
experience and that's talked. About it was, known it. Was
it was a big part of The Middle, ages and
in everyone in The Middle ages Was catholic, practically you,
KNOW i, mean as far As Western europe was, concerned it.
Was it was practically All, catholic with a few exceptions
here and, there K thar's and you, Know spain Was
muslim for a, while but you, know but you, know,
overall you, know ghosts were an accepted part of. Life

(02:46:33):
it just wasn't really dealt. WITH i think mostly people
saw them in very much the the sense in which
they are portrayed In scrooge the uh in A Christmas,
carol uh in the in the sense That Jacob marley
is is pretty much like uh stuck in. Limbo maybe

(02:46:55):
it's even a.

Speaker 9 (02:46:56):
Proparatory, yeah, yeah it is extremely uh yeah Similar AND
i can SEE i can see the similarities as, well
because it's really interesting that you also mentioned, about you, know,
uh the things that ones, were, right you, know the
shadows and the things that you, see and, well for
WHAT i feel is like a lot of the things
and the memories that people, EXPERIENCE i feel like kind

(02:47:18):
of melt into that, area, right and they kind of
stay there until you, know you have someone there to
bless the area and to you, know take care of
that specific spots where things you know ones were and,
again the things that you know happen. There what what
type of trauma is leaked on the walls there or you,
know because it tends to staying in these certain areas. Too,

(02:47:39):
yeah And i've seen it a. Lot there's some spots
where a lot of this activity is proven to be
more you, know common and so you have even raising
these things kind of mount into these. Specifics so, YEAH
i think that's a really interesting thing to bring up as.

Speaker 2 (02:47:56):
WELL i thank you for the, question and, yes it
was very good in it really fits in here BECAUSE
i really think the problem that The christianity as a,
whole not Just, catholicism but the entire body Of christian.
BELIEF i think the reason it has such an uncomfortable
relationship with ghosts is because it doesn't fit their paradigms
of the, afterlife the idea that you could.

Speaker 6 (02:48:19):
It's because they've gone so. Far they've really embreaks modernism too,
much even The Catholic, church you, KNOW i, mean Since
Thomas aquinas is describing things that monks From Mount alphs
have told me have happened in, there you, know to
them speaking to brothers who have died who appear to.

Speaker 4 (02:48:44):
Them you, know it's, rare it should you.

Speaker 6 (02:48:46):
KNOW i think if people think that all of their
ancestors are speaking to, them you, know ON, q they're
probably misleading.

Speaker 4 (02:48:54):
Themselves but the idea that the the who've gone before
is can't have any.

Speaker 6 (02:49:02):
Interaction with, us that's a materialist point of, view that's
not A christian point of. View the fact That christians
have taken on materialism and modernity and, postmodernity well that's their,
problem but it doesn't make it.

Speaker 9 (02:49:15):
True, yeah, yeah that's That's that's one of the main
problems THAT i have often with The Western, churches Especially,
protestanism where you, know they tend to forget a lot
of you, know, tradition and with, that some of the
tradition it, carries you, know important things that they actually
have to account, for you, know like gemnology and all

(02:49:37):
these you, know different teachings well you, know the, bobbles
but you know it's purposely left out because, again it
just doesn't fit the way that the modern arch times,
are you, know With christianity and all.

Speaker 6 (02:49:49):
That, yeah, YEAH i mean, basically there are many many
things that are still official teaching of The Catholic, church.

Speaker 4 (02:49:57):
Some of wh should be alluded, to which.

Speaker 6 (02:49:59):
Almost no you, Know catholics would go out of their
way to, reject you, know Most catholic. Bishops, sadly if
you went to them and, said, LOOK i THINK i
THINK i might need an. Exorcist maybe maybe things are
turning a little bit on, that but certainly for the
greater part of the twentieth, century they would have, said,
oh you're.

Speaker 4 (02:50:15):
Clearly, mad you, know even though their church teaches that these.

Speaker 6 (02:50:19):
Things you, know we have The roman ritual for, exorcism
so that that is culture infecting faith in an unhealthy.
Way and so and, look there's always a balanced you
why you should always speak to your priest by the,
way always the right, answer because there has to be
a balanced because because he knows you better THAN i

(02:50:40):
do or anybody. Else because there has to be a
discernment between if you're seeing the supernatural in everything when
you do in the ironing and the washing and dusting your,
furniture you're, like if you're seeing the supernatural, there then
you're probably too focused on those. Things but if you're

(02:51:01):
hyper rational and hyper, materialist there's no it's unlikely you're
going to get a correction because the culture's gone that.

Speaker 4 (02:51:09):
Way but actually it's.

Speaker 6 (02:51:11):
A bigger problem in many ways because that suggests That
god stopped working in the, world AND i don't believe,
that and that's not certainly all the truth.

Speaker 4 (02:51:20):
Teaching AND i think that's.

Speaker 9 (02:51:22):
It's really dangerous because it's some of these things that
are left that are downright dangerous if, there BECAUSE.

Speaker 2 (02:51:30):
I like what you just, said their, father BECAUSE i
think if anything that anyone could derive from tonight's, show
it's to, demonstrate to illustrate that that there is still
so much more That god has in store in Revel
revelation did not stop two thousand years. Ago it's constantly.

(02:51:52):
Unfolding and that's WHAT i mean by when the when
The magisterium makes something, absolute you're kind of cutting off
The Holy spirit at that, point because now you get
yourself locked into a corner that you will not be
able to find your way out, of because maybe two.

Speaker 4 (02:52:10):
Years it is dogmatic statements are very few invo, between.

Speaker 2 (02:52:15):
And they should, be and they should, be BUT i
think even, once maybe perhaps too, many just because we
don't have the entire picture, yet and the church actually
does recognize that it's it's it's it's a direction and
it might be the best direction for, now doesn't mean

(02:52:37):
it's the only direction and it's the only thing that
we could ever know. Later AND i think ghosts might
be in that. Category maybe you, know we're just not there.
Yet when not ready for, YOU i don't, KNOW i
don't know why it, Is, jason BUT i thank you
for your. Question it was a very good.

Speaker 9 (02:52:51):
One thank, you of, course of, course, yeah that'll be.
It BUT i recently everyone here is having a wonderful
That i've been watching guys for an, hour AND i
hope you, guys you guys have a good, night And
i'll be watching for the. Rest all, right, great thank
you so much.

Speaker 2 (02:53:09):
Again thanks. Again, yeah that's a good. One and do
we have any others from The we don't have much time,
left BUT i can maybe take one more. Question anything
else that we. Missed i'm sure there's that you you
hit the ones THAT i, Saw, Brandon, brandon did you
see any.

Speaker 3 (02:53:24):
Probably?

Speaker 2 (02:53:25):
Has, okay so we're up to.

Speaker 4 (02:53:27):
Park, well there was there was one more That riverboat
mentioned Follow.

Speaker 6 (02:53:36):
It was basically, about you, know finding it difficult to
accept that deathbed confessions get you out of. Hell AND,
i you, KNOW i, said do you know, what it's
probably the hardest teaching of the. Church we do believe
That god offers forgiveness and restoration to all who believe
In christ and truly, repent and you can't Fool. God

(02:54:00):
but you, know it's very hard for us to imagine
that it's the sinner himself that's that's lost. Out like
it's not like he's got some magic. Reward you, know
he's had an evil life and now says some magic
words on his deathbedter now he's in heaven. Forever the
point is he's lost out on cooperating with The Holy.

Speaker 2 (02:54:18):
SPIRIT i think we also have to remember that we
need to stop thinking of hell as the. REWARD i,
mean heaven is the, reward in hell is the. Punishment
it's not.

Speaker 4 (02:54:26):
Transactional, no it's, relationship.

Speaker 2 (02:54:28):
Right and so therefore it's it's more about whether or
not one wants to be restored to the perfection that
they were always intended to, be or if one is
going to forever reject. That for, me in my annihilationist,
VIEW i think when a person rejects, that that's the,
permanence that's the that's the burning flame that can never be,

(02:54:51):
quenched because in that, sense you Cut god off yourself
and you make it impossible.

Speaker 4 (02:54:58):
Self, yeah you.

Speaker 2 (02:54:59):
Do so whatever it, is whether it's lights out or eternal,
suffering is kind of irrelevant because in the, end you're
still falling short of what you were designed to, be
what you're called to, become And god is not there
because he wants. To he wants to, get you, know
a punishment in for all your. Misdeeds god is here

(02:55:22):
to restore. You and as quickly as that to be
done is how it will be. Done only we set the,
limitations the punishments. Irrelevant god's not interested in. Punishments this
is a vindictive thing that human beings do with each.
Other and this is why we have a justice system
that's more about retribution than it is about. Corrections we
call it the Correction department of. Corrections, bullshit it's about.

(02:55:44):
Correction it's a department of, retribution is what it. Is
it's to punish people because they want.

Speaker 12 (02:55:51):
More.

Speaker 4 (02:55:52):
Honest we just called it the.

Speaker 2 (02:55:56):
Penis at least it is, honest right it. Is oh my,
gosh there's just so much we could do with this.
One but you, know there's only so far you can.
Go all, Right So brandon will let us know if
we can revisit this topic and?

Speaker 3 (02:56:07):
Did he, Texted, well while you guys are, discussing there's one.

Speaker 2 (02:56:10):
Slot, Okay well we'll take that slot and and and
kind of do a follow up to. This i'm not
gonna call it a part, two just gonna be more
time to unpack the implications, here And i'm Sure Father
chris is a lot more than he'd like to, share
and he would be able to give the alternative more
traditional points of view, counterpoints and we can see how

(02:56:33):
that all fits together with WHAT i shared with you,
tonight and so that will come up next, week though
it's About. Aliens With reinforcement's, back he's going to share with.
Us he's always he's going to share with us alien
abduction experience is that he's been uncovering in some of his,
hypnosis AS i understand. It so now that we're, like you,

(02:56:56):
know ask deep in all of this disclosure, stuff it's
like it's.

Speaker 19 (02:56:59):
A peri.

Speaker 2 (02:57:02):
The perfect time to bring them on right to talk about.
It so that's gonna be next. Week we're gonna, like
no theology next. Week it's that's gonna Be, aliens all,
right it's, right, Well Father, chris thank, You, brandon thank, You,
jamie thank, you and a big thank you To jason
for calling. In all of you that contributed to the,
Show riverboat for those great. Questions all of you who

(02:57:22):
are part of our family here On vestages After, dark
thank you so much for tuning in Tonight we'll be
back next, week and until, Then i'll see you out
there at these in the.

Speaker 14 (02:57:31):
Ether see you, later.

Speaker 18 (02:57:32):
Guests who is the last the?

Speaker 12 (02:58:52):
Lasts the

Speaker 1 (02:58:57):
Song is the, Last the song is no st as

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