Invoking Angelic Guides in Divinatory Practice with James Ferrera

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:34):
And as.

Speaker 2 (00:46):
The good morning, good afternoon, good evening, whichever the case

(01:49):
may be, for all of you listening out there across
the crazy planet Earth. Welcome to Vestiges after Dark and
I am your host, Bishop Brian will let it come

(02:11):
into you lie from the deep woods of Western Georgia
on this November fourth, twenty twenty five. I think one
of the subjects that kind of freaks a lot of
people out is the idea of divination. Terror cart seemed

(02:33):
to scare people for some reason, and it shouldn't. But
tonight we're going to talk with returning guests James Ferreira
about divinatory practice and how to protect oneself using the
invocation of angelic guides. That's tonight on Vestiges after Dark. Well, hello, everybody,

(03:56):
Welcome again to tonight's episode of Vestiges after Dark. Once again,
I am your host, Bishop Brian Willette. Jamie Wolf is
on vacation, so she won't be with us tonight, but
do not worry. We still have a fantastic show for
you tonight on the subject of angelic invocation as it
pertains to divinatory practice. So I think you got a

(04:17):
good one. I'm gonna have a good one tonight, and
you're gonna have a really good time that's coming up
in ours two and three, so make sure that you
stick around for it. Okay, I think there's really not
much that I have to announce, but I had so
much fun last time with the Soturn that I thought,
I think tonight's a liturgical libations night, so I went

(04:40):
ahead and grabbed this fantastic bottle that I've been enjoying.
This is one of my favorite scotch, one of the
best scotches I've ever I've ever had, in my opinion.
It's the distillers edition of Lagavlin. It's kind of hard
to find, don't really see it around too much, so
when I I do see a bottle of it, I

(05:01):
go ahead and I grab it because I might not
see it again for a couple of years, which was
the case. The last time I had a bottle of
this was about two years ago, and that was from
my private collection, so I might have purchased it probably
quite a few years before that, so I haven't seen
it around in a while. But I've noticed that people

(05:22):
are drinking less alcohol these days, which is bringing the
price of whiskey down, so I'm not complaining anyway. This
is to tonight's show, and I hope that we all
have a good one. And just by the nose of
this fantastic Scotch, it's just wonderful. And I know that
this is a favorite of Father christ Yates, who's joining

(05:44):
us tonight from Australia. How you doing tonight, father? Have
you had the Distillers edition?

Speaker 3 (05:51):
I don't think I have. I've I've just put a
bottle in the recycling of like a Violin sixteen, which
is is I think pretty much pound for pound.

Speaker 2 (06:05):
Everything every scott should be right.

Speaker 3 (06:07):
Yeah, it's the go to right, you know, It's like, yeah,
it's it's always great and so and even for people
that aren't really into piety whiskey, they can kind of
cope with that, I think because it's a bit gentler.

Speaker 2 (06:20):
I think so too. I mean, I don't know if
if Jamie would agree. I think she finds Luga her
it's a little high in the iodine flavor, and I
think that can sometimes throw some people off if you don't.
That's what I like too. I like that ocean taste,
you know, and this one is.

Speaker 4 (06:41):
That in Talliska as well.

Speaker 2 (06:42):
I think you do help me. I mean, all of
the ones on the ocean have a version of it,
but I would say that, yes, Talisker and Lugga all
and tend to have the strongest effect. It's more it's
more saline than pete, although the pete's present, of course,
but it's it's more salty air kind of taste, and

(07:02):
it's wonderful. This one is to.

Speaker 4 (07:05):
Lefroy, which is which is?

Speaker 5 (07:06):
You know?

Speaker 3 (07:06):
Because it points the way it points the distillery. Yes,
far less saline.

Speaker 4 (07:11):
It's got it. I mean, obviously it's a unique flavor.

Speaker 2 (07:14):
It is.

Speaker 4 (07:14):
It's its own thing like but most people don't.

Speaker 2 (07:17):
I love it. I mean, I mean I always have
a bottle of Lafoy I have. Laura is my favorite
version of that one, and the the sixteen year old
is wonderful too, if you can find it. That's also
another one that's kind of hard to get. You pick
it up.

Speaker 4 (07:31):
When you see the distillery, they've got it.

Speaker 2 (07:33):
Yeah, I imagine that. Yeah, I imagine I'll.

Speaker 3 (07:37):
Be very near there actually in December. Well then I'll
be able to see it from where I'm going to be.

Speaker 2 (07:42):
Oh really, are you going to island? And you actually
go into.

Speaker 5 (07:44):
The going to Northern Ireland.

Speaker 2 (07:46):
So okay, you say it on the other side. Okay,
well then you have to take a boat. But you
can get there. I mean you can do it.

Speaker 4 (07:51):
You can get there. I might even swim there. Get that.

Speaker 2 (07:56):
Why not? I'd swim for for a log of olin,
you know, or lafroy. But no, this is this is
the This is a sixteen year old, but it is
more sherried. It's it's it's cast in a different in
Olroso sherry casks, and it has a higher concentration of

(08:17):
that sherry flavor. So just picture the sixteen with more sherry.
So it's almost like if you took a little bit sweeter,
but not not enough to really completely cancel out that sailing.
It still has it. But it is almost like as
if you put I got the closest thing I could
compare it to. It's not an exact match, but the
closest thing I could compare it to is take a

(08:39):
a sixteen year old luggable and marry it to a
fifteen year old No, actually an eighteen year old bowmore,
and you'd have some type of a more recently Oh yeah, yeah,
I love which which one do you like them. I
mean what we get around here is to the twelve,

(09:01):
the fifteen, the eighteen, which are the standards, and then
I will occasionally pick up a bottle of twenty six,
like the twelve.

Speaker 3 (09:11):
Is the fifteen that's the one that's done in very
sherry cast. Yeah, sherry cast. So yeah, I prefer the
twelve to the fifteen to be honest.

Speaker 2 (09:22):
Try the eighteen. It almost tastes tropical. It has a
tropical fruit kind of characteristic, and the orange is stronger
in it. So if you like that, the fruitiness of
Beaumar really comes out very nicely in the eighteen.

Speaker 3 (09:39):
Well, it makes a very good you know bomore goes
well with John Bewye and dried orange.

Speaker 2 (09:45):
Yes, it does, it sure does. Yeah. And the older
the Boumoor gets, the older the age statement, the more
orange you taste in it. So I had a thirty once,
and I mean it almost was like Grandma Nier. I'm
not kidding. Yeah, it really was. It was very strong,
not not as thick and syrupy, but still very very

(10:06):
orange forward. Joining us from Tennessee, we have Brandon Milam tonight.
How you doing tonight, Brandon?

Speaker 6 (10:15):
I'm good. I have no idea what your father Chris
just said. But I thought a dr pepper this morning
song good.

Speaker 2 (10:20):
Okay. I don't know if there's much orange flavor in that,
but there's something in that. I don't know what you
call it, but cherry. I think it's like a cherry, right, doctor.

Speaker 6 (10:31):
That could be like twenty eight the nine artificial flavors.

Speaker 2 (10:35):
It's great, twenty nine artificial flavors.

Speaker 6 (10:39):
Something like that. It's it's good, It's.

Speaker 2 (10:41):
Good, okay, all right, Well, as long as you enjoy it,
that's what matters, you know. I mean, you drink what
you like, you know. Tracy says she likes Teleisker too.
That is one of the ones that we always we
always have a few Talliskers in the house. I think
we have an eighteen in the collection, maybe one or
two of them. Actually I have to go up there

(11:02):
and check, but uh yeah, we always we always have
a tall scare around. Okay, So let's get started tonight
with questions from the ether. What do you have for
us tonight, Brandon. We've got a lot of time, so
hopefully they're good.

Speaker 6 (11:14):
Questions hopefully, So if they're not, we have plenty more. Okay,
But so for a Christian who affirms they know where
they're going after death being heaven, wouldn't that be more
so the heaven Ghati of Buddhism rather than the Kingdom

(11:34):
of heaven.

Speaker 2 (11:36):
Okay, so we got a bit of a metaphysical h
slash Buddhist question here, a crossover. It's a little bit
of a crossover, which.

Speaker 3 (11:46):
Will just kind of just the quick religious answer, yes,
especially to Protestants, is to use to quote to quote
the scriptures. You know, work out your salvation in fear
and longer, you know. In other words, do not presume.
Do not presume. And it's not about you know, I'm

(12:07):
not going to get into the whole oh, because you
think work save you know, it's because faith and works
are inseparable, and if your faith is worth anything, then
you'll do do something for the gospel. So it's a
tired old argument that you have with people. Nobody should
presume their salvation. Now, none of that is to deny

(12:27):
God's love and God's will that all men shall be saved.
But being presumptuous generally in life, this is just a
general life lesson. Being presumptuous seldom leads to good fruit.
But I'll let you Bishop Bryan answer the metaphysical.

Speaker 2 (12:42):
The metaphysical parts of this. Yeah, well, I mean this
is sort of, I guess inspired by there's season's discussion
on annihilationism and how we've used the eschatologies of several
different traditions to kind of piece together what one can
expect in the afterlife, which I would say, and I
would argue that no one religion has the full answer

(13:03):
to but I think they all have parts of it.
And it's not as though Christianity is incomplete with this.
It's just that that's not its focus. Its focus is
not so much to give you a roadmap of everything
that one could encounter as soon as one dies. It's
more about giving you the tools for salvation so that

(13:26):
you don't need to really think too much or worry
too much about all the other options that are out there.
You know. That's really I think the primary thing to
take away from this, And I agree with everything Father
Chris said about presumption. It's always a problem with Christians,
I think, particularly the more evangelical they get, the more
presumptuous they tend to be, the more arrogant they tend
to be, and the more insufferable they become. And I

(13:50):
would really try to encourage those of you who do
adopt more of an evangelical sort of again approach towards
you know, Jesus is your own personal plaything. I'm going
to suggest that maybe you take a step away from
yourself for a little bit, have a little bit of

(14:11):
self awareness and realize just how off putting that is
to the rest of the world, and how you're not
doing anything. You're doing no favors for the Gospel. If
you really care about the Gospel, that is perhaps the
single worst way in which to share it, because it's
just going to turn people off to every single aspect
of it. If you really want them to read it,

(14:33):
that's not the way. Okay, that's not the way, So
consider that next time, you know, and it really humility
is the goal here. Humility is the approach. And I mean,
I think if you want to be christ Like, there's
no way to avoid humility. So let's not worry about that.

Speaker 3 (14:50):
That's what attracts a lot of Western people to Buddhism
and Eastern sort of religions is because they're much better well,
it presents in a much more humble way. I think yes,
Now that doesn't mean it's true, of course, but but
humility is a true way, and so you know, I

(15:12):
think you're right. Not just Evangelicals, all all Christians could could.

Speaker 2 (15:17):
Learn a lesson from this. Yeah, yeah, I'm being hard
on the evangelicals, but yeah, well yeah, I mean I
think even yeah, Catholics can be just as bad, if
not worse in some cases, particularly these days. But yeah,
I would say other religions do tend to do humility better.
I think part of it is there's no real command

(15:37):
to be evangelical and other evangelize and other traditions. Islam's
probably the only one that kind of feels a call
to evangelism, and they've got their own little brand of it.
But Eastern religions tend to not do that kind of thing.
They don't there's no message that needs to be shared
with the world. It's just, you know, you make it available.

(16:00):
People will find it when they're ready for it. That's
kind of the philosophy that they take with religion. And
I think there's something to be said for that for sure.
I mean, that's definitely my approach towards it. I mean,
I make it available, I make it very available. But
I'm not going to go out there and shove it
down people's throats. I'm not going to sit on the
corner of a street, you know, handing out pamphlets. And
I'm not going to be telling people that I disagree

(16:21):
with that they're going to hell just because I disagree
with them. You know, these are not approaches that one
should take. But back to the question. So when we're
talking about the Gatti, if you remember in I don't remember,
maybe it might have been both episodes we did on annihilationism.
We're talking about some of this eschatology, and as I

(16:42):
said before, we are piecing this together using different traditions
to try to come up with a full picture, since
no one tradition has the full picture. Buddhism, however, particularly
the vajor Yana school of Buddhism, which is the Tibetan
form of Buddhism, tends to have perhaps the most complete

(17:02):
picture because they're the ones that have spent so much
time studying it. They perform this ritual called death practice.
They use various techniques to be able to sort of
catch a glimpse. It's almost like near death experience practice.
You could call it. But it's a lot different than
what some people in the more theosophical or New Age

(17:25):
groups might consider to be those same experiences, because for Buddhism,
the life immediately after this one is the most perilous
of all, as as perilous as it gets, and there's
a great deal of risk. Buddhism teaches, at least Vaguriano

(17:47):
teaches that when we die, we immediately enter into this
halfway state called the bard, and in that we will
be presented with not what we want to see, but
every thing that we must see, and it's usually that
which we are the most incapable of facing. So our
greatest fears, our greatest deficiencies all become accentuated realities that

(18:18):
must be overcome. It's sort of, I guess. The Western
equivalent here is the journey to the underworld that we
see in Union psychology, which is of course a universal archetype.
It's not just a Western one. It's just part of
human nature. But the idea of one, you know, the

(18:38):
hero going down into the underworld to face a challenge
and then rising triumphant. This is part of that archetype
being played out in a very real, dynamic and horrifying way. Actually,
the bardeux is quite can be quite horrifying for those
who are unprepared. So Buddhists prepare for it. They spend
their lives, at least if they're serious about it, they

(19:00):
spend their lives meditating to acquire a basic understanding. Now
there's other types of things that they can do. That
is more than I can talk about in this particular segment,
But there are various things that one can do to
hopefully recognize these challenges for what they are, And what

(19:22):
it really amounts to is that these things are appearances
of the mind. And then in that moment, one comes
to realize that their entire existence has been nothing but
an appearance. And then they see the emptiness of one's
own self. That the concepts that we've held so dear

(19:42):
to the identities we've thought for all our meaningless accidents
of a greater state of consciousness that one could in
the West apply to God or the divine, But ultimately
it is not a self in the sense that we
recognize it. Ego is dissolved, and whatever remains of the

(20:06):
ego is literally consumed. If you ever ask Jamie Wolf
about her near death, experience when she was hit by
that motorcycle. She will tell you that one of the
things that she experienced were these these little dark creatures
that were attacking her, even trying to eat her. This
is a very common thing in the Bardeu that is

(20:30):
referred to as well, it's the wrathful Buddhist And they're
not there to terrify you. They're there to remove your attachments.
And if you cannot prepare yourself in handle that experience,
and I think few people in the West would be
able to handle that, well, then then well that's where
things get complicated. So let's get to the question here.

(20:53):
Because after the bar dough, one will eventually incarnate one
of the Gatti. According to Buddhist philosophy and or theology
depends or cosmology, if you really want to get technical.
It's more of a cosmology than anything else. What will
happen is they will return to one of they will

(21:13):
incarnate one of the five of the six Gatti. So
there's there's two heaven realms, that's the Heaven realm and
the demi God realm. And then there's two very physical realms.
The one that we're most familiar with right now, the
human realm and the animal realm, and then there's two
hellish realms, which is the hungry ghost realm and then

(21:34):
the hell realm. Now this is not hell in the
shale sense or haiti sense. This is not hell in
the Christian Gahenna sense. This is hell in the sense
of one's deepest fears, one's deepest horrors, one's deepest traumas

(21:56):
being so being embraced so completely that it has become
that person's identity in life, and so therefore it becomes
their only identity and death. And so if a person
lives a life of of of evil, which would be

(22:16):
you know, maybe it's something as simple as a self
centeredness and selfishness or self interest, or something as severe
as cruelty or you know, murderous intent, sociopathic tendencies, then
these are the things that they become. Likewise, if a
person lives a life of fear, then fear is what
they become. If a person lives a life of love,

(22:39):
however great that is, that's also what they become. But again,
unless they can recognize that every one of these aspects
is an appearance, not the true reality, then they will
often become part of just another fiction. In other words,
the mind just simply manufactures whatever the expectation is according

(23:04):
to what Buddhists would call the karma of the individual. Now,
karma is one of those very misunderstood concepts in the West,
because we tend to think of karma as some kind
of credit system where the more good things you do,
the more the universe rewards you, and the more bad
things you do, the more the universe tends to punish you.
And some people will even look at it as what

(23:27):
goes around comes around. That's not exactly what karma is.
Karma is more along the lines, is the cultivation of
one's reality. And so therefore if you do if you
cultivate pain and suffering, then you become those things in life,
and I mean eventually it does destroy you. Look at

(23:48):
how a person who lives a very hard life and
a sense of heart, I mean, a life of cruelty.
Look at how it starts to affect even how they look,
Their appearance changes, they become more and more dysfunctional as
time goes on. That's karma. It's not that the universe

(24:09):
is punishing them. It's that the universe is literally giving
them what they are generating. It's think of the universe,
think of the cosms, think of creation. To use a
Christian term, think of creation as God's massive xerox machine.
And it just literally copies your intent. So the more

(24:31):
that you put out into the universe of something of
a negative nature or a positive nature, the more you
become that very thing that's karma. So if you cannot
recognize the illusion of your own mind of appearances, then
you become the appearances. That's exactly what you are right now,
an identity that you've manufactured. But I guarantee you, if

(24:52):
you look very deep within yourself, you're not going to
be able to really find the source of this thing
that you call I or me or whatever it is
that you did refer to yourself as there really isn't
anything there of substance. Even your thoughts, where do they
really come from? Are you really producing them? Or is
it ninety nine percent of the time just random things

(25:12):
that come into your your head on its own. I mean,
this is the monkey brain that people struggle with when
they begin meditation. They can't quiet their minds. Well, if
you were in control of your thoughts, you'd be able
to just instantly turn that off. But you can't. You
know why, because these thoughts are coming from something else,
something that isn't you, but because those thoughts create you,
at least from the Buddhist perspective, and it is one

(25:34):
that I maintain, and I think it is not contrary
to Christian identity or the Christian worldview. It just adds
another layer to it, another dimension that needs to be
maybe somewhat explained for people that are not familiar with
this Eastern type of process. Where does Christianity fit into this?
And I promise you this is part of the question.
But because we have a little extra time tonight in

(25:55):
this segment, I feel I can be a little more
complete on this one. So let me talk about that
for a minute. If we're if you're looking at it
from the Christian standpoint, we are of course wondering, well,
we're working out our salvation, right, That was the very
first thing Father Chris said tonight, you know, working out

(26:17):
our salvation, not presumpt and presuming that we have it,
but having to work it out. That's the church militant, right.
But what is it that's being saved? We've been asking
this season, what is it that's annihilated. If annihilationism is true,
then what is it that's being annihilated? Well, then we
have to ask ourselves, well, what is it that's saved?
And we will immediately say it's it's me. But we

(26:38):
don't really know what me is, or I or you
or whatever. We don't We don't really know what that is.
We just know it's an experience. It's it's something that
has an experience, or something has a capacity to experience.
But the more you look at it, the more you
realize that it's just basically an experience. It's not really
an observer in the sense that we think it is.

(26:58):
It's more so a past, massive thing that can sometimes
gain a more active role, but oftentimes is at the
mercy of the powers that be. And like a like
a like a candle blowing in the wind, you know,
I mean, or I'm sorry, a leaf blowing in the wind.
You don't even you have no control. You just go
wherever the wind blows you. So much of life is

(27:19):
like that. How many of you have dreams that you
would love to accomplish, and you worked very hard for
them and still can't amain can't attain them, or maybe
you didn't attain them the way you wanted to or
thought you should have been able to. This is because
largely the universe is outside of your scope of control.
And that is because you're just part of the process.
You know, you're not the process. And that's I think

(27:42):
some of the arrogance that we can sometimes feel is
that we tend to place more importance on ourselves than
we really should or we really are, I mean, and
that is perhaps why Eastern philosophy is better at humility,
because they're operating from a basis already that this is
all in appearance and that you know, we shouldn't put
too much too much, to put too much investment into

(28:04):
it beyond that which is here for which is to
recognize that this is what must be done. So when
we get to this question, is like these Christians that
think that they know they're going to They'll tell you,
I know I'm going to have it because I know
who my Savior is, I know who Jesus is, I
have a personal relationship with him. And then they're like
Grandma's in heaven, I'm going to meet my whole family

(28:26):
when I die, this kind of thing. The problem is
is that this is an appearance that is creating another appearance.
There is nothing in scripture that says that this is
what's going to happen to you. There's there's nothing, you know.
This is not God coming down from you know, parting

(28:47):
the clouds and coming down from the sky and saying here,
this is what's going to happen to you. This is
you making an assumption based upon what you want to
be true. Even your concept of Jesus is nothing more
then an idol that you've manufactured for yourself. I guarantee
you when you start asking the questions about what is Jesus,
do you find it has very little resemblance in most

(29:08):
people to the one that's in the gospels. They've all
made their own version of them and that's the one
they want to meet. And guess what, that's what the
brain's best at manufacturing your wants, or better yet, not
so much your wants, but manufacturing what you cultivate. And
what you cultivate usually is a product of whatever you

(29:30):
tend to spend your time doing or whatever your base
nature is. And this is the karma system again trying it.
Just like in Christianity, we shouldn't look at God as
a judge that issues out rewards and punishments. No more
should Buddhists look at the cosmos as a karma system
that's issuing out rewards or punishments. It's just basically, you

(29:51):
cause an effect. It's whatever you produce is what comes
to you. In that sense, you become what you are.
It's very simple. You become what you are. And so
we want to be the best that we can be.
But we want to be awake through it. That's the
big caveat. And I love this. I forget the name
of the master. It was a Daoist master. It might

(30:12):
come to me. I'll let you know if it does.
There was a Daoist master that explained it this way.
He said he had a dream that he was a
butterfly that was flying all around, very happily, flying everywhere,
and then he woke up, and then he asked himself,
was am I the man having the dream of the butterfly?

(30:34):
Or is the butterfly now dreaming that he's a man.
And you know what, both are true. Both are true.
He is the butterfly and the butterfly is dreaming him.
And from whatever side of this of the spectrum, you're
on in terms of the experience of what we call
reality is going to determine which role you play in

(30:56):
that particular moment.

Speaker 5 (30:59):
You know.

Speaker 2 (30:59):
Now, christian don't think like this, because unfortunately Christianity tends
to take a somewhat and it's gotten much worse in
the last five hundred years, but it's taken a very
materialist approach towards spirituality. It's not surprising to me that
the same people that gave us, you know, the Christian

(31:25):
Christianity that we know today, are the people that created
the Enlightenment, and the Enlightenment went in this very materialist direction.
It's where we ended up with this postmodern reality we
have now. It's the same people. It's like when people
ask questions about, well, what about those Catholics with all
their pagan symbols, where they adopted all these pagan symbols,
Who do you think the Pagans were? I mean, oh,

(31:47):
do you think these Christians were? They were the Pagans.
Most of the Christians were converted Pagans. Of course they're
going to take their cultural symbols with them. That didn't
mean the Church said, oh, let's steal all the pagan symbols. No,
the Pagans were the Christians, and the Christians were the
pagan I mean, it's just the way. That's the way
it was read your history books. But overall, we, again
from the Buddhist perspective, we manufacture that which we are,

(32:12):
and so therefore our expectations can bleed through. So when
a person asks, and I think this was actually you, right, Brandon,
that asked this, is this more like the heaven Gati?
It could be if they're lucky. If they're lucky, one
could say that the psyche, that the mind for Buddhist terms,

(32:35):
will manufacture the appearance of whatever it is that is
most conducive to that person's nature. So if that person cultivated,
you know, a Christian life on the surface but without
any depth, and was not ready for death and not
prepared for it, then yet absolutely they could manufacture heaven.
Now the real question is from the Christian advantage point

(32:58):
over this is that does because I'm a person that
does subscribe to the idea that the gatti, the bardeaux, shaol, Hades, Guyhana,
the kingdom of heaven is what do all exist? And
I think they are all out, you know, all aspects
of this thing. We call reality. I don't see them

(33:22):
as specific to Well, that's what Buddhists think, and that's
what Christians think. And I don't see conflict there. I
think they all kind of work perfectly together, and surprisingly
they feel in each other's gaps, which is what I
like the most about it. It's almost like a puzzle
that came together and said, oh, there's the picture. Now
you had the pieces I was missing. That's kind of
how I look at it. And so there are pieces
missing in the Christian eschatology. And that's because it only

(33:45):
focuses on salvation, doesn't try to get into all the
other possibilities. Buddhism doesn't have a salvation focus. Buddhism is
only concerned with awakening. Is waking up, is being able
to recognize now what happened after that? Well, that's where
it becomes a mystery. In Buddhism, they don't know. I
think that's the part that we have in Christianity is

(34:06):
I think that there is an opportunity. And this is
perhaps the not the gnosticism of the heresies of the
early Church, but the epiginosis that Saint Paul talks about,
is that there is this awakening in christ that occurs,
and in that awakening, what is being saved is a

(34:26):
true and complete ego, not this broken, fallen one that
we're used to, but a true and complete ego. So
I think it's kind of like for Christians you can
almost have your cake and eat it too, you know,
because you can be like, yeah, I mean, you're you're
empty of now that you're falling, You're empty of all
true intrinsic reality. You're just in appearance. Now you're just

(34:47):
a shadow, a reflection of the glory of God that
once was. But the beauty of it is that Christianity
gives you an opportunity to get it back. It's not
any longer something that's completely lost to you, and it's
not something you have to do on your own. I mean,
even Buddhism has options for that. Now. They have the Amitaba, right,

(35:09):
they have pure land Buddhism that has almost like a
savior figure in there, a Buddha that's there to help you,
you know, guide you through the process if you call
out his name upon death. You know, it's very interesting,
very similar to Christianity, and that s it's almost a
christ figure. It doesn't surprise me because I think this
is again Jesus reaching out in all of the various

(35:29):
ways in which he must, knowing of course that you know,
culture is going to be greater than anything, and if
a person isn't raised with Christian values, well they're not
going to necessarily even find any interest in having them.
So but that doesn't mean that they're doomed. That just
means that Christ has to reach them on at their level,
and I think this is where he's doing that. So

(35:51):
it's not surprising that there's even Buddhas that have the
characteristics of Jesus. And I'm not going to go as
far as to say that it is Jesus, but I
would be surprised if it is, I wouldn't be surprised.
And that's again not for me to know, not for
it's for them.

Speaker 5 (36:05):
You know.

Speaker 2 (36:05):
I've I've found Christ the traditional way, So even though
I have a very expansive philosophical foundation, I don't need
any of that extra stuff. It's just nice to think about.
It's nice to understand, and it gives me some hope
for those that don't have the fortunate life that I've
had to be able to find Christ the way I did.
But anyway, so yeah, I would say there are very

(36:27):
there are many Christians that live a very marginal, selfish life, okay.
And if they think that just by virtue of believing
that Jesus died on the cross for their sins, that
they're all set. Now, I hate to break it to them.
They are not all set. And that's when we start
to get into, you know, all of the other possibilities

(36:48):
that we've talked about this season. Just go back and
listen to the Annihilation episodes and you'll have more than
you need on all of that because we talk about everything.
We even talk about the traditional teachings of the church
in those episodes, which will hopefully answer those questions for you.
But so yeah, I think from a Buddhist perspective, and
a Buddhist would definitely say that a Christian who maintains

(37:12):
this would not be seeing any true heaven. They wouldn't
recognize that as nirvana, nor would a Christian or should
a Christian consider that to be the kingdom of Heaven
that Jesus is ushering in. It is absolutely an illusion
of one's mind, and that's the dangerous thing of it,
because we live in we're diluted all our lives. We

(37:34):
think we're so important, and the more uh famous we become,
the more wealthy we become, the more significant we become,
the more we elevate ourselves to the status of being
the center of the universe. I mean, it's it's not
it's not philosophically healthy, it's not spiritually healthy, it's not
theologically healthy. It's not even it's not even psychologically healthy.

(37:58):
It's much much great to take into consideration all of
the times Jesus reminds us that you know that those
that will lose their life will save it. Those that
try to save their life will lose it. There's meaning there.
The meaning is that the more that we try to
hold on and maintain the integrity of our fallen nature,

(38:21):
the more we lose our salvation is exactly what that's saying,
and put in Buddhist terms, Well, the more attachments you
maintain that you're attached to impermanent things that cause suffering, well,
the more suffering that you're going to endure and that
will continue on indefinitely until you decide to give it up.
The problem is, the more you hold on, the more

(38:42):
you lose yourself in it. Which makes it even more perilous.
That's why the gatti are different layers. See, they consider
Buddhism considers the human gatti to be the most sacred,
much more sacred than the heaven realm. And the reason
for that is that in the heaven realm, everyone one's
so blissed out because they're so content in the illusion

(39:03):
that they've generated that they don't care that it's not real.
They wouldn't even consider it doesn't matter because it feels
just so good and it might as well be for
all eternity as far as they're concerned. It so long,
So you know, they're not going to be able to
find enlightenment that way. They can't, they no reason to
seek it. And then and those in hell, they're suffering

(39:26):
too much, there's no way to seek it because the
pain and suffering is so great that we can't even
hope to have the peace of mind to be able
to meditate and maybe awaken from it. So the suffering
is too much, but they become absorbed in the suffering.
So the only place, the only gatti, the only state

(39:48):
of reality in which one can attain enlightenment. From a
Buddhist perspective, is the human realm, because it's the only
one where we can have a perfect balance of just
a little bit of pain, just a little bit of happiness,
and a whole lot of stillness. And most of our lives,
you know, barring the outliers, is pretty neutral. You know,
you have your happy moments, you have your sad moments,

(40:08):
but most of the time you're even keel you don't
even realize it. And that's the best state to be,
because that's the middle way that leads to realization because
you're not suffering too much so you can pay attention,
and you're not so blessed out that you can pay attention,
you know. So this is this is again, this is
Buddhist cosmology, not very Christian, and it's and it's in

(40:30):
its dialogue, but it does not necessarily contradict. It just
fills in those gaps that we don't know. We don't
know what purgatory is like. We don't know the process
of weird shale fits into all this, or what the
fires of gat Hannah are really all about. We don't
really know. We can philosophize, but we don't really know.
We can use allegories and we can and people have.

(40:52):
I mean, Dante gave us a whole book of allegories
about what that's like, but we don't really know. Buddhism
doesn't like allegories. Buddhism likes pragmatism, and so Buddhism gives
us a very pragmatic description based upon how we live
our lives. We become what we cultivate. It's the most
it's the most perfect thing. And it's again, it's not

(41:14):
even a punishment. It's not like you're going to hell
because you've been such a bad person. It's just you
just become the reality that you are. That's it simple. So,
you know, in the human role, we can make choices,
We can be aware enough to make choices. We have
these moments of lucidity. Most people don't use them. They
prefer to just veg out watching their TVs or veg out,

(41:35):
you know, not paying attention, getting consumed by work, getting
consumed by relationships, or you know, politics is the big one. Now,
that's the big distraction, you know. But the in reality is,
you know, use your moments of lucidity to focus on
what really matters, and that's waking up, that's awareness, and
that's what Buddhism focuses on that's the only path to

(41:58):
if there is salvation Buddhism, it's awareness that they would
say is the way to get it. They don't have
the benefit of Jesus. But I mean, Jesus really is
an instrument for awareness when you really read the Gospel. So,
I mean, Brandon, I know that was your question. Do
you feel that answers it? Is there something I'm missing?
Is there more that you need to know?

Speaker 6 (42:19):
That pretty much answered my question for me for the
most part. The point of the question was to my
understanding how you explained the Gatti when we were at
their retreat house last time, was if you're perceiving things
beyond death, it's an illusion. So when people or when
Christians have the mindset that they're going to have Jesus

(42:39):
running down the steps to hug them, or they're going
to see their family, that since they're perceiving it, that's
still an illusion.

Speaker 2 (42:48):
Correct.

Speaker 6 (42:48):
Kind of where my question was directed towards.

Speaker 2 (42:52):
And the reason I hold this Now, Remember, I want
to make sure that I make this clear. This is
not an official teaching of the Catholic Church. Okay, this
is just this is the benefit of many many, many
many years of my own Buddhist practice and my study
of multiple variations of philosophy, and many of which come

(43:15):
from the East, and I have found a home in that,
you know, I've found much peace in that, and I've
found much truth in that. And so I share what
I know from salvation as a bishop with kind of
what I've experienced with everything outside of that experience, because
just because I'm a bishop now, it doesn't invalidate everything

(43:36):
that came before it. It actually confirms it for me.
So yeah, I'm not going to say that that's this
is an official teaching, but I will say that this
is what I understand to be true, and that is
that like we talked about the soma, which is the
body dies, right, that disintegrates. That is the first thing

(44:00):
that perishes rigamortis and then decomposition. And guess what. The
brain is part of the soma, right, And the brain
is the seat of consciousness. So there cannot be any
experiential encounters beyond the soma until it is resurrected from

(44:21):
the dead, which is why, in my estimation, the Jewish
tradition of resurrection required this, and why Jesus actually.

Speaker 5 (44:33):
Came.

Speaker 2 (44:35):
You know, salvation comes through that process. That it wasn't
just about salvation, It wasn't just about being brought back
to God. It was about literally coming back from the dead,
as we are reconstituted into a physical form. Why would
that be necessary if you know the material doesn't matter
and your body doesn't matter. Of course, your body matters.

(44:55):
It's the temple of the Holy Spirit, But why would
he need to resurrect it? Because you need your mind
back to have the experience, to be able to experience reality.
So I would say that all of these appearances of
the psyche are just deep awarenesses, but not experiences you
don't experience. And the way I try, and I try

(45:17):
to explain this because it's very hard, is that when
you're dreaming, you don't know your dreaming until you wake
up and can then rationalize it with your conscious mind.
You don't really unless it's a lucid dream, which is
a whole different thing. Let's just talk about standard dreams
that most people have every night. Okay, you don't know
that they're happening. You're having an experience, but it's just

(45:41):
a passive experience that is very elusive, so elusive that
when you wake up you barely can remember them half
the time. Okay, but if you do remember, and if
you try to hold on, you need your conscious brain
to do it. Otherwise it's gone. It's gone. And that's
what this, that's what the psyche is. Without the brain,
it's just and it's just an instinct. It doesn't have

(46:02):
a conscious logical center. And I really feel that this
is why Christianity emphasized the resurrection of the dead, and
why Jesus emphasizes the resurrections as central to his plan
of salvation, because it brings back the fundamental logical, rational
awareness that we enjoy now in a way that has

(46:25):
both the physical connection as well as the incorporeal connection.
I think that both are necessary, and I think that
when you look at the theology, it's very clear from
the fathers of the Church. The Kingdom of Heaven is
not a spiritual existence. It's a spiritual and physical existence.
It's Heaven and Earth. It's both together, and we become

(46:46):
we do we our body becomes one that can incarnate
both equally a in a perfect way, which is kind
of what Jesus's body was after the resurrection too. How
you know, he was physical, he could sit down and
eat with them, they could touch Thomas proves that, but
he could also pass through walls or sometimes look like
somebody that they didn't recognize, you know, or in some

(47:08):
of the go ahead.

Speaker 4 (47:10):
It also explained. It also explains why the Church places.

Speaker 3 (47:14):
So much emphasis well, why the emphasis comes upon the
Blessed Virgin Mary, the Theotokos, because and I think a
lot of people get this wrong. They think that's some
somehow you know, ala da Vinci code is sort of
you know, longing for the divine feminine. No, it's emphasizing

(47:38):
the incarnate nature of Christ, that that God has blessed
the the bodily condition, that He's elevated the you know,
the human body to divinity. And so that's why we

(47:59):
place that emphasis on the Blessed Virgin Mary is actually
because of the enormity of the incarnation. And I think
the incarnation, certainly in my lifetime of public Christianity, the
incarnation is downplayed, you know, Yes, of course, I mean
all of these things are equally vital and and feedback

(48:23):
into one another, you know, the Cross, the resurrection, But
I think we can place so much emphasis on that
and on.

Speaker 4 (48:33):
Sort of the.

Speaker 3 (48:33):
Personal experience of personal forgiveness for the sins I have
conviitted that are on the cross. You see this a lot,
especially in charismatic Christianity. And it's not wrong, by the way,
it's not wrong to say, of course, Jesus Christ on
the Cross dies for my sins.

Speaker 4 (48:48):
But it's not.

Speaker 3 (48:49):
But you know, but that's not to say that Jesus
Christ came only for me, you know. And and in
order to sort of understand the enormity of that of
the cross and the resurrection, you first need to understand

(49:10):
the incarnation, which is which is the ultimate act of humility.
You know, that God becomes flesh. So I think a
lot of a lot of the things that where people
go wrong in thinking about God is bypassing the we
spoke about last week, but bypassing the enormity of the incarnation.

(49:33):
And that's why, you know, Loose Gospel goes to great
lengths to to talk about this, that that the blessed
Virgin Mary is yes, is a real genuine consent, and
that we're all capable of imitating that we should all
seek to be people that say yes to God's way,

(49:53):
even though we original sin and personal sin pulls us
away from that. So I think refocusing on the incarnation.
If you think about the Hail Mary, a prayer that
you know polarizes people, you know it really is.

Speaker 4 (50:08):
The sort of the scriptural basis of this.

Speaker 3 (50:11):
Is is is is Luke's Gospel. The second half of
it that is not in the Gospel is follows. You know,
Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now
and at the hour of our death, simply an acknowledgment
of the truth that Jesus.

Speaker 4 (50:30):
Christ is God.

Speaker 3 (50:31):
And therefore she gives birth to God, not that she
creates God, but she.

Speaker 2 (50:36):
Birth the God bearer is the Theotokos means God bearer,
not God creator, god maker. Yeah, Brandon, I think the
main thing here is that the reason why I have
said that when we die, the first thing that the save, well,

(50:59):
the first anybody honestly saved or not, will experience, is
the resurrection of the dead. But I think all of
the passive instinctual experiences of the psyche that takes place
between their physical death and their own resurrection is going
to be dreamlike. It will be remembered in that moment

(51:22):
as a dreamlike experience. They know something will have happened,
but they will only be able to remember it passively.
They won't be able to it won't be like, oh, well,
now I'm doing this. It will feel like the dream state,
you know. And I think that's why Shale is described
that way as well. All Right, So I said that
we had a whole lot of time, and I think
we took it. So let's get to the next question

(51:45):
we got next week. Next week is understanding Catholicism, where
we're going to be going over a whole bunch of
questions on the nature of Catholic theology. So we'll probably
get into this again next week, So tuned. All right,
what's our next one?

Speaker 6 (52:03):
So the next question comes from April. Why is it
Mary Magdalen is such a prominent figure in the Jesus story.

Speaker 2 (52:10):
Why is she such a prominent figure? Well, I mean
she is the ultimate story of conversion. Okay, that's the
most significant thing. In fact, so significant is Mary Magdalene
that she was actually given a special title by the Church,
the apostle to the apostles. That's a very profound thing
because the Church is very much quick to emphasize that

(52:32):
the apostles could only be men, but in this particular case,
she sort of takes on that role. Jesus appears to
her first, and we know from scripture that seven demons
had been cast out of her, which is incidentally where
she became associated with being the prostitute that's converted. And
I mean, that's a papal association. It wasn't something that

(52:55):
I don't think the Father's the church definitively said, it's
never really she's not really named. That prostitute isn't really named,
but she's been conflated with that, and it really doesn't
matter either way. We just know that having seven demons
was kind of an ancient way of saying that you
were riddled with problems, and probably a lot of sin
came out of that. And so the fact that she

(53:18):
had them cast out of her through Jesus and then
became such a devout follower that Jesus saw fit to
appear to her first after the resurrection is very, very significant.
And then it was Mary Magdalene that led the women
back to all the men and said, you know, Jesus
has risen from the dead, and they didn't believe them.

(53:38):
They had to go see for themselves, right Peter at
least did. So this is part of why she's so significant.
It is because as being the first witness to the resurrection,
she's the one that first shared it, and that is
the ultimate good news. So she becomes the ultimate evangelist
in this particular sense. Is that because that's what the
good That's why the Gospels referred to very word gospel

(54:01):
means good news. What is the good news? It's not
less so about Jesus dying for your sins and more
so about what that actually produces. That the gates of
heaven are open again and we can choose to walk
through them again because of that cross. So yeah, the
cross is part of that good news. But the real
good news is that there's a solution, and the solutions

(54:22):
here and now. And Mary Magdalene is the first to
share that it is true that everything Jesus said was true,
first one to say it first, one to see it, first,
one to witness it, even above all the twelve Apostles,
well only eleven by that point, but eventually they replaced Judas.

(54:43):
So that's why she's so important. Father's anything else you
can think of about her?

Speaker 4 (54:50):
Well, I mean I think, yeah, look, it's related. It
is the idea that.

Speaker 3 (54:58):
One of the motives of her is they're trying to
describe the the the most far off from redemption you
could be. So it is too, is to counteract the
prideful notion that I'm so uniquely sinful that I, you know,
God's forgiveness might be for everybody else, but not for me,
because I'm I'm especially sinful.

Speaker 4 (55:20):
You know, I'm I'm I'm the most sinful.

Speaker 3 (55:23):
So Mary Magdalene is is I'm trying to imagine what
the how she would what the contemporary equivalent of Mary
Magdalene would be, you know, like the worst possible person
you could imagine, like the person furthest away from redemption.

Speaker 4 (55:39):
That's what she's there to signify.

Speaker 2 (55:41):
Represent that you could be this far gone and still
in salvation still for you.

Speaker 3 (55:47):
Yeah, and also you know, it feeds into something which
we're less familiar with now, which but certainly in the
Judaism of Jesus' time, people were literally untouchable, you know,
as in, if you touch them, you became richly unclean.
And therefore we had to go through a series of
you know, mick va baths and all sorts of other
things to get yourself so by the way, and then

(56:10):
this is lost on people in the powable of the
Good Samaritan that if if a Jewish priest touches or
encounters a dead body, he's richly unclean and therefore, you know,
can't perform the sacrifices at the temple.

Speaker 4 (56:25):
So, I mean, we can see how this is reversed
in Christ.

Speaker 3 (56:28):
You know, Jesus comes and says no, no priests are going
to be anointing the dead right or the dying.

Speaker 4 (56:34):
So but nevertheless that you know, so may Madlin.

Speaker 3 (56:38):
The fact that that Jesus embraces her, that he will
touch her, is a sign that nobody is untouchable to God.

Speaker 2 (56:48):
That's a good point.

Speaker 3 (56:50):
You can't hide in your pride of thinking you're you're
the worst person on earth, which is think about it
is a very boastful it is.

Speaker 2 (56:57):
It's the it's it's the same kind of arrogance we
were talking about before, only in the opposite direction for
the opposite reasons. But yeah, that's why, Okay, we can
probably get to that last question. I think we've got
a few minutes.

Speaker 6 (57:10):
Here night, So the last questions from Andrew, who's the
thinker we can look to to tie together evolutionary science
with Christianity.

Speaker 2 (57:19):
I mean there's plenty. I mean even the popes themselves
have talked about this. One that is often cited is
the Jesuit priest Pierre Tellard Deschardan. And he was a
I guess you could you could say it was a paleontologist,
wasn't he? And he would he discovered if I recall

(57:43):
Homo erectus fossils, So a lot of his work actually
involved the study of of you know, fossils, the fossil record,
and the study of vestigial structures and how it applies
for for for him, the idea that evolution exists, it

(58:09):
was central to representative of the actual power of God.
He saw that as the selvific act in action, that
the reason that evolution directs us back towards the state
of perfection. In a cosmos that is literally run by entropy,
everything here is breaking down, it's not getting better, and

(58:31):
yet here we are. Evolution makes things better each time,
each generation gets a little bit better than the previous one,
and it's working towards greater states. To use true physics terminology,
if entropy is going from states of order to increasing

(58:52):
states of disorder. Then evolution is literally going to greater
states of implexity for more simple forms of comp you know,
less simple complexities, and that shouldn't happen in an entropic universe,
and yet here it is. So you could almost say
that that is the power of God, the power of creation,
the power of salvation at work that in a way,

(59:14):
I think, and this is where I don't remember if
he's the one that talked about this, or where I
got this from it before all I know, I came
up with it myself. I don't even know. You know,
after you go through years and years and years of
studying things, you forget where you learn them. You just
know that they're in there somewhere. But you know, when
you read the Book of Genesis, it's a very one

(59:34):
thing that stands out about the story of Adam and
Eve is there their nakedness, and that they put on
the animal skins to hide their nakedness. And I always
saw that as an allegory for taking on these lower
primate forms that we call our bodies. And then we
have to cover that up because we're shameful of the

(59:55):
fact that we're now this this animal. We're no longer
or this perfect being that we once were, and its
representative of the fall. And so I think for for
tar dishart In, he saw this as evolution bringing us
slowly back to perfection, bringing us back away from these
primate forms, to the point that we will evolve to

(01:00:17):
something much greater, something divine. And that's that's just one,
but there's several others. And you know, if you have
more questions about that, we can maybe look deeper into it. Anyway,
we're gonna take our break care when we come back
with our guests tonight, James Veria to talk about angelic invocation.
Don't go away, No.

Speaker 7 (01:00:38):
Chance is to.

Speaker 8 (01:00:45):
Day's as apport sometimes.

Speaker 2 (01:00:49):
Your host two tied.

Speaker 8 (01:00:56):
How I can make my mind joy, the fun, the passion,
wait up, want sometime.

Speaker 7 (01:01:15):
Get mess?

Speaker 1 (01:02:12):
I have been.

Speaker 9 (01:02:13):
Pressed way aft is a conso pin did I give
Mecus horison?

Speaker 1 (01:02:27):
Whatever felt? Hi don't musa thus mut ta ta ta

(01:06:28):
ta tat.

Speaker 7 (01:07:05):
No age.

Speaker 1 (01:07:21):
Aquee day not agree.

Speaker 2 (01:08:08):
Welcome back everyone to the second hour of Vestiges after dark.
We're getting ready now to start tonight's topic on angelic
invocation as it applies to the use of taro or
any kind of divinatory practice I would assume could be
applied here whatever your particular choice is, and you're going
to learn a little bit all about it tonight. Please

(01:08:30):
remember to like, share and subscribe. Remember, you guys are
the ones that support this show. We don't take advertisements,
so that doesn't help us much with the algorithm on YouTube,
and we certainly don't talk about subjects that tend to
be very worldly, so that doesn't help us out that
much either. So you guys have to be the ones

(01:08:50):
to promote the show. Get us out there, share this broadcast,
tell people about it, and if you really like it,
give us a donation, support the church that pays for it. Okay,
take care, Okay. Our guest tonight, which I am very

(01:09:52):
much looking forward to uh is James Ferrera. He's a
professional tarot reader who's empathic insight allows him to connect
deeply with both the cards and his clients. Blending scholarship, intuition,
and meditation, his approach brings balance between intellect and spirit.
James earned his Tarot and Riki certifications from twenty two

(01:10:14):
Teaching School of for medic Science and Magical Arts in
Los Angeles. He currently serves as a reader faculty member
and event moderator at Taro Arts in South Pasadena, and
is a recurring guest reader at the Philosophical Research Society.
He also hosts Taro Talk show podcasts Outside the Metaphysical World.
James is an award winning unit publicist in film and television,

(01:10:37):
with credits including Malignant, The Conjuring Series, Annabelle the Nun,
Insidious Chapter three, Sinister two, and the Stephen King adaptations
of The Boogeyman and Salem's Lot. Please welcome back to
the show, James. How are you doing tonight?

Speaker 5 (01:10:53):
James doing great? How are you?

Speaker 2 (01:10:56):
I am fantastic. I am fantastic and so happy to
have a chance to spend some time with you. I
felt terrible that my last trip to LA for the
Conjuring four again, they put me on such tight restrictive
schedules that you literally fly in, then you have to
go here, and you got to go there, and you
barely have time to eat. So we tried, We definitely

(01:11:17):
tried to get over to you, but there was just
no way we could do it. But we wanted to
see you so badly.

Speaker 5 (01:11:23):
Yeah, I wanted to see you guys too, So you'll
have to come out here another time without motion picture agenda.

Speaker 2 (01:11:30):
I think that's going to have to be necessary, because yeah,
when when you're on their time, they tried to fit
every little thing, and well, you know what it's like.
I mean, you're in the industry.

Speaker 5 (01:11:40):
Maybe maybe yeah, no, no, of course I totally get it.
Maybe maybe you can come out for the Tarot Festival
next year.

Speaker 2 (01:11:47):
That sounds great. Yeah, let me know when it is
and we'll try to make that, make that happen because
I would love to get back out there.

Speaker 5 (01:11:55):
It will be the first weekend in June and twenty
twenty six, and we are lucky enough to be working
with the Philosophical Research Society as one of our venues
and taro Arts is another venue. But yes, I think
it's going to be bigger. I don't know if it
will be better than this year's was.

Speaker 2 (01:12:18):
Well it sounds fantastic either way. So yeah, we'll definitely
try to do that. I'll talk to Tracy and see
what our schedule is looking like for that. But if not,
then some other time, I'm sure we'll get out there.
And yeah, we have to do it on our own terms.
I think that's the only way. And of course You're
always welcome to come out here.

Speaker 5 (01:12:36):
I would love that.

Speaker 2 (01:12:37):
So let's talk about this so angelic invocation. So you
utilize what you referred to as angelic guides, which with
what I assume to be the intent to protect you
through the divination process, maybe not so much from harm

(01:12:59):
as much as it as it is to maybe perhaps
guide the integrity of the readings. Would you say that
that's a fair assessment or does it go deeper than that?

Speaker 5 (01:13:08):
Yeah, well it does. It goes I think a little
deeper as well, but not you know, the abyss deep. Yeah,
I don't. I don't work with angel guides and I
don't invoke them in order to to seek protection. But

(01:13:31):
like you said, as guardrails against my own infiltration of
my perspective when I'm reading for somebody, And to be clear,
I will give my advice, my personal advice during a

(01:13:53):
reading if I feel that it's warranted. But I make
a distinction that to my client that you know, listen,
this is not in the cards, This is not from
the message that I'm seeing. This is from my experience,
and so I delineate that aspect of what I'm seeing,

(01:14:13):
because when i'm reading, what I'm really looking for with
the guides that I'm working with is to connect with
with the divine spirit, with the divine spark, to and
work with these angel guides as conduits to receive the

(01:14:37):
messages that I need to that my clients need to
be able to hear, and that I need to be
able to interpret and deliver in a way that they
can understand it.

Speaker 2 (01:14:49):
So it has a lot to do with sort of
helping you to filter out your I guess presumption you
know that you might have or whatever you might imprint
into the deck. I know that when I teach students
and when they first get started with reading the tarot,

(01:15:11):
one of the most common problems I see in the
very beginning, and for some it can last a rather
long time. I know it did for me until I've
really figured this part out, was that the terror is
like a wonderful mirror. You know it will more than
likely and be more than happy to reflect back your

(01:15:32):
greatest ambitions, your greatest wants and desires, as much as
it will reflect your greatest fears, neither of which are
necessarily the truth of the situation. Just you know what
you've imprinted into it, and if you don't know how
to separate that from the process. Then that's kind of
what ends up happening. So a lot of people give

(01:15:52):
up and say, oh, this is just nonsense. It's like, yeah,
it works, but it's not telling me what I need
to hear. It just tells me what I want to hear,
or tells me what I'm afraid to hear. And and
then that's when we go through all of these various stages.
So it sounds as though what you're what you're what
you're doing here is you're you're using these guiding spiritual

(01:16:13):
forces to sort of filter out the noise to get
a more clear signal between you the client or the court,
or if it is just you and the cards, so
that you can get the clearest answer. Is that fair
to say.

Speaker 5 (01:16:27):
That's it's part of it. It's not. It's not the
main aspect of what I'm doing. I guess I suppose
what I'm what I'm trying to do is more active
when I'm invoking guides, And I want to explain that

(01:16:48):
a little bit in a moment, like how I came
to this realization of of how I'm working with with
guides and what those guides are because not everybody's guides
are angelic guides, so but it's it's more direct in
that I'm actually seeking their their intervention in a way

(01:17:19):
to help draw down the message, to help connect me
more powerfully with the divine so that I am delivering
the message that they need to hear. Almost It's yes,
part of that is removing my ego and my my

(01:17:40):
filter from it, but the more direct aspect of it
is connect me so that I can see and when
I can see that, I can deliver and can I
and help me to deliver it in a way that

(01:18:00):
my client can understand. Because just me being able to
understand and see the message and feel the message, because
I work from a perspective, I am empathic, but I'm
also Clare sentient and Claire audience. So when I feel
and see and or hear a message, I need to

(01:18:25):
be able to deliver that to my client in a
way that they can understand. I can see it and
understand it, but I may not be able to articulate
it in a way that it resonates for them. So
when I ask my guides to be able to help
me deliver these messages in a way that my clients

(01:18:48):
can understand, I'm really giving myself over to the divine
process or to the celestial side of things, to be
able to act as a conduit almost If that makes sense, it.

Speaker 2 (01:19:06):
Does, Yeah, go ahead, Sorry, go ahead, No. I was
just going to say, it reflects very much the ancient
practices in China. If you look at some of the
old iconography of you know, the classical Golden Age of China,
Chinese philosophy, going back to the eging and some of

(01:19:28):
the old divinatory practices of using the tortoise shells. A
lot of the imagery in art, you will see the practitioner,
you know, doing the divination or carrying out the divination,
and then there will be all these spirits looking down
on them. In a way, these are the spirits that

(01:19:50):
are that are bringing the message, bridging the realm of
heaven and earth so that there can be a clear
resident connection, so that both can communicate freely with each other.
It invokes that for me when you were describing what
you were just explaining.

Speaker 5 (01:20:10):
It's interesting and I and I that makes that resonates
for me because I'm very visual and a visual thinker,
and so although we ascribe imagery to angels, and other

(01:20:31):
celestial forces. It's not necessarily you know, we tend to uh,
I'm gonna, I'm gonna stumble over this, and manthrop anthrop anthropomorphized,
thank you, a lot of things that we don't understand
what they really look like. And we don't really understand

(01:20:52):
what angelic forces really look like, just like we don't
understand what God really looks like. Right, we have ideas
in our head. They help us relate to that energy. Right.
But and so as a visual thinker, I do see
that sort of angel on my shoulder or or you know,

(01:21:19):
the the guides peering down from above to kind of
keep an eye on what I'm doing. Because I also
hear messages. I don't when I when I hear things,
people ask me, you know, as a as a Clare

(01:21:39):
sentient reader or a Claire audience reader, Well, do you
hear the whole message? Or do you hear a sentence?
Or like, do you hear a voice? Is it male?
Is it female? It's it's none of those things. Actually
I hear Sometimes I'll hear a word, or sometimes I'll
hear I hear something. It's not always distinguishable as English,

(01:22:04):
but I know what it means. And so I sort
of see that presence up here whispering to me when
I maybe am not getting it or not communicating it,
and then I'll hear something and it comes out and

(01:22:25):
it tends to resonate so with the client. So I
like that idea. I wanted to mention, like sort of
how I came to work with angelic guides, because I
said that they're not the only type of guides that
people work with. People work with ancestral guides, and people

(01:22:47):
work with demonic guides. You know. I don't I don't
advocate that, but I know that people do. Right they
work with the Aasia, with the Solomonic Croatia and believe
that they can control those those powers, and maybe they can.

(01:23:10):
I don't know. It's not something especially with with my
history and the conjuring universe and you you connect, we
intersect in that realm. You know, It's not something I
want to play with. So even when I'm working with
angelic guides, when I'm doing something that's more ritualistic outside

(01:23:34):
of the immediate preparation that I do in opening my
space and sanctifying my space for readings, I take great
care in my intention what I'm what I'm asking to

(01:23:57):
work with and how I create that space as a
sanctified space to ensure that it's not opening you know, doors,
two things I don't want to come through.

Speaker 2 (01:24:13):
And that so that would be like the protective aspect
of it.

Speaker 5 (01:24:16):
Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (01:24:17):
Yeah, yeah, I think that's what that scares people. I
think about taro. They see it as doorway, and I
think they're afraid that something dark could come through. We
have a lot of clients sometimes that come to us
and say that, you know, they didn't have any problems
to Instead, they start playing with tarot cards and then
all of a sudden they think they have a demonic attachment.
You wouldn't believe how many decks I have collected over

(01:24:38):
the years because they end up giving their cursed decks
to me and I don't destroy them, and I've never
had problems with them. But you know, I don't think
it comes for the cards personally, But I think that
definitely opening ones up one's mind up to spiritual things
you know, are going to like attracts like right, So
if you think a lot of dark thoughts, well there's

(01:24:59):
going to be a a lot of dark things that
find their way to you. As soon as you open
that door. It's not the tarot that does it, it's
just you opening that part of yourself that makes you
a little bit vulnerable. So I don't think someone like you, James,
would have too much to worry about in terms of
having to be protected. But you know, it's always nice
to know that, you know, you're clearing the way right,
you know, making it nice and smooth, just in case.

Speaker 5 (01:25:22):
Absolutely, I mean, listen, it doesn't it doesn't hurt. And
it's part of my practice. My practice is you know,
my practice is imbued with light, and I want to
keep it light and I want to keep you know,

(01:25:43):
I want to keep that light shining. So that's you know,
that's part of what I That's just part of what
I do. And I understand that just the practice. You know,
a lot of the ritual practice is similar ritual that
can be used to invoke or conjure darkness or conjured demons,

(01:26:10):
conjure bring things through that you know we don't want
to bring through. So if I'm conducting a ritual that
could be you know, there's an element of it that
is what flips it from white to black or light
to dark, then I want to make very clear that

(01:26:33):
I'm working in the light, you know, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:26:36):
It makes sense. So how did you come to interact
with these guys like identify these guys? You mentioned that
they're not all the same for everybody, that some are
not angelic. I think you are saying that you identified
yours as being some type of angelic being. So how
did you come to this relationship?

Speaker 5 (01:26:57):
Yeah, and I don't know if I can adequately answer it.
Part of you know, this idea of guides or having
guides and working with guides was introduced to me through
Naha Armity at twenty two teachings, who's one of my mentors,

(01:27:19):
and she talked about her guides and you know, calling
on your guides. And I was a little lost in
it first because I thought, well, I don't know who
I don't know who my guides are. I don't know
what guides are. I'm not really tapping into that and
I'm not connecting with it. So for a long time

(01:27:45):
I didn't have any connection with working with guides of
any kind, but I tried to remain open to it,
and then at some point it just connected. I don't know,
I don't know how to describe it, like I knew

(01:28:06):
the guides. I knew that I was working with guides,
or that guides were coming to me, and I just
I just knew like that I was working with angel guides,
which was very strange for me, because I've always felt

(01:28:27):
that angels were like that, they were just like a cliche,
like we see angels portrayed and in so many ways,
like on pillows and targeted and cherubs on candles and

(01:28:51):
like as almost the lowest common denominator of style. And
I don't mean to, I don't mean to if somebody
really likes angels and they have them all over their house,
I don't mean to say, you know, to cast any
shade on that. But it just wasn't resonating for me

(01:29:16):
as something deep and important and connecting. It struck me
as something more pop culture like that I didn't connect with.
So the idea that all of a sudden I felt
an angelic presence was both profound and confusing and surprising

(01:29:39):
to me when it first began to happen. So I
can't explain it fully. That's part of the nature of it,
I think, but I just understood that that was who
was coming to me or what was coming to me.

(01:30:00):
It was presenting itself, not how it was presenting itself,
but what was presenting itself.

Speaker 2 (01:30:07):
Do you find that they are representative to you in
the same sense of what we know from the Judeo
Christian worldview, or do you think that there's something deeper
than that, even because certainly in scripture, both Jewish scripture

(01:30:31):
and Christian scripture, angels basically serve two primary functions, to
be protective and to render messages, which is essentially both
ways that you're experiencing them here. So it sounds as
though it's almost like a guardian angel in the Catholic sense.

Speaker 5 (01:30:52):
Yes and no. So sometimes I haven't identified fully my
guardian angels, and if and if we're going to talk
about you know, different traditions, and also in Islamic tradition,
there is a tradition of angels and angel messengers as well.

(01:31:12):
I mean in all three of the Abrahamic religions, right,
but the angel, the idea of angels even predates that
in earlier beliefs. I think that they're primordial in the
same way you know that God is. These these things

(01:31:36):
have existed before time, outside of time. They continue to
exist outside of the time that we live in and
intersect with the time that we live in. If that
makes sense. I hope I'm not getting a little too
too metaphysical events.

Speaker 2 (01:31:51):
Not for this audience, You're fine, But.

Speaker 9 (01:31:58):
But my.

Speaker 5 (01:32:02):
When you're asking about, like, you know, a Judeo Christian
aspect of it and guardian angel aspect of it, my
understanding and my approach to it is largely through that lens.
My understanding of it. So so yeah. But in terms
of guardian angels, you know, there are different traditions. There

(01:32:23):
are almost as many different interpretations and traditions as you
know there are people on the earth. But Agrippa said
that you know every Accordelius Agrippa said that every human
has three guardian angels and one servant demon. Well, the
servant demon can can stay over there concern. But the

(01:32:45):
three guardian angels, whomever they may be, Do I have one?
Do I have three? Do they change throughout my life?
You know? Or are they lifetime guides as some suggest?
I don't know. I haven't identified them all, but I
do know that, you know, I work with oil A

(01:33:06):
Lot or uriel A Lot as an archangel that intersects
with my I believe that they are probably one of
my guardians as well, but other angels come in and
out of that divinatory space when I'm looking for guidance,

(01:33:32):
and I have I have a lot of tools that
I use and and in my in my practice. So
there's more of a long what's the right way of
saying this, not long term, but there's more of a

(01:33:52):
there's a deeper ritualistic practice that is outside of the
moment of preparing for divination or sanctifying a divinatory space
for reading. That greater ritual space takes place, you know,

(01:34:17):
in my home or outside of my home, in my yard,
you know, and that connects me on a deeper level,
almost like an anchor, right, I'm throwing the anchor overboard
to keep me connected on a deeper level. And then

(01:34:38):
and there are tools that I use for that as well.
And then when I'm sanctifying my space, I have a
ritual practice that I employ and I use tools in that.
Some of the tools that I use are crystal. Some
of the tools that I use are cards or key

(01:34:59):
or a single bowl. You know. I brought a lot
of these things here to to to share. If you know,
a beautiful epidolite angel. So crystal cards, you know. But
their images, they're they're they're things that are not They're

(01:35:20):
helpful for me and my brain and the way I
work and connecting and amplifying how I perform ritual or
connect with angelic guides, but they're not necessary, right. All
I need is me, ultimately and my intention and and

(01:35:41):
the purity of that intention in order to be able
to connect. I use these other things to help me
do that, but they're not necessary. If I don't have them,
it doesn't impede me from being able to continue with
sanctifying that space, if that makes sense. So working I

(01:36:07):
also want to I also just want to mention we
talk about invoking angelic spirits or angelic guides, and that
was my that was my choice for the for the
title of this right, but I want to I want
to clarify something because I'm not conjuring. I'm not invoking

(01:36:30):
in the sense of commanding, and that may be part
of the chaos magician in me, which we can talk
about a little bit if you want to. But the
understanding of tradition and the understanding of history and how
things work in tradition is important. But being bound to

(01:36:54):
that tradition I find to be limiting and not in
line with the purity of intent. So in that way,
I refuse to invoke or command or conjure angelic spirits
because they're not my servants. I'm asking them to come

(01:37:19):
into my space to give me guidance, and I'm making
a request to them through prayer and ritual to help
guide me in a way that empowers my client and
helps me step out of the way if I need

(01:37:40):
to write, or be in the way as the interpreter
when I need to. So I just wanted to make
that distinction as well.

Speaker 2 (01:37:48):
No, I'm glad you did. I mean, I think, honestly,
I think your title is fine. But I think also
at the same time, words matter, and I think sometimes
we get sloppy with semantics, and we take for granted
that what we understand to be a particular usage might
not be how someone else takes it, or even what

(01:38:11):
would be academically the correct way. Academically, invocation is exactly
what you're doing. Invocation is the request, the appeal to
a higher force. Evocation would be more of the commanding
of servitude, sort of like Eenochy and magic, for example,

(01:38:32):
where angels become more like subservient to humans based upon
the manipulation of these sigils or incantations, angelic names, that
kind of thing, which I would never suggest that anyone
gets involved in. But the evocation parts are problematic. The
invocation is consistent with the way that you're describing it,

(01:38:56):
which is not unlike how a Christian would their own
guardian angel or any of the archangels to aid them
in a particular way. It's a common Saint Michael is
obviously invoked. There's an invocation to Saint Michael in the church,
which is a minor extorcism and incidentally the only extorcism

(01:39:19):
that the Church authorizes the laity to use. So that's
how powerful it is and how useful it is to
ask for the assistance. And of course the angels are
there to help us. They enjoy, for lack of a
better word, working with us because that's part of God's will,
and serving God's will is their ultimate function. So it

(01:39:41):
gives them in our terms, something to do, you know.
But yeah, no, I think I think invocating invocation is
exactly consistent here. So but I'm glad you made the
the the distinction because I think there are people out
there that just hear these terms, they think they they
know what they mean, and it might sound to them

(01:40:02):
that you're calling them down in some ritualistic magical practice,
you know, like I said, chaos magic or something, and
forcing them to do things do your bidding. You know
that that I think comes from a lot of the
grimoires and the the you know, the the you know,
the lesser banishing ritual pentagram, all this stuff where they

(01:40:24):
you know, these are things that are used to after
you invoke a demon, and usually it's demons that are
getting evoked. Evoke a demon, you make them a servant
to you, and then you have to get ready, you
have to banish them because they won't leave. So the
ritual practices are here to guide the person through the
every step of that process. But that would be true

(01:40:45):
evocation in that sense. Again, not something I would recommend.
I'm pretty sure you wouldn't recommend it either.

Speaker 5 (01:40:51):
Well, not with demons demons. But I do use the
l b RP because but again, every that I approach
I approach through through light and through through connecting with
purity and with the divine and with divine intention. And

(01:41:13):
so when I do an LPRP or lesser banishing ritual
of the Pentagram or a greater or or invoking ritual
of the Pentagram or whatever it's. It's it's in alignment
with with God and with making a safe space for

(01:41:38):
me to work in. Right, Although I may not be
calling upon demons and then feeling the need to banish them,
right because I just feel the need to banish them
throughout my daily life. You know, I'm not constantly thinking
about banishing demons, but but I do when that idea

(01:42:00):
comes into my mind, like, oh, is there is Is
this a thin space where something can come through? No,
it can't come through into my world because I refuse
to allow it to come through into my world. And
I have the power you know, above and beside me
to help me hold those forces at bay. Should and

(01:42:21):
I don't think they want to come in because they're like,
it's not a welcome right, But I still want to
create a safe and protected space, and those rituals the
LBRP is one of those things. And invoking the name
of you know, different names of God to create a

(01:42:46):
space of purity. That's part of my that's part of
my daily like my cleansing of my space, where I'm working,
where I'm reading, right, I do a cabalistic cross, I
do an LBRP I I I do an invocation of
the flame and lighting a candle as you know, a

(01:43:11):
representation of the spark of the divine. I have a
procedure that I go through, you know, and then and
then I do my my prayers and then what I'm
asking for declarations, I go through my other things. But

(01:43:31):
everything that I do is with like and I state
this out loud as well, and with harm to none.
Everything that I ever do when I'm doing ritual or
concluding ritual, opening a space, closing a space is and

(01:43:54):
with harm to none. It's always the goal. Now, I
don't always feel that in my daily life both, right,
you know, I'm not perfect. I wish I were. I'm not,
and I never will be. But I can strive, you know,
to be better. And part of that is the ritual

(01:44:17):
that I do. The ritual that I do is part
of encouraging me and reminding me to be better, to
create space that is clear of polluted, my poll the

(01:44:38):
polluted part of my mind, right, the polluted part of
of what in fringes on my daily life. To to.
That's what I'm working to banish. When I do an
l b r P. I'm banishing that aspect, not any
sort of demons that I've conjured, but just the the

(01:45:00):
negative aspects that I may bring into that space. And
so that ritual helps me to create a clean and
open space and to feel safe or more comfortable to
call it. It's like cleaning my house before I have guests,
over right, I want to I want to get my space,

(01:45:22):
my divine space, clear and clean before I actually invite
angels and God into it. Yeah, even though they're like,
you know, almost any guests that comes into my house
is like, I don't care what your house looks like?

Speaker 2 (01:45:40):
Yeah, you care? Sure you feel it right?

Speaker 5 (01:45:43):
You know.

Speaker 2 (01:45:43):
This is very consistent with Eastern philosophical thought. It just
occurred to me because we've been talking a lot this
season about Buddhism and how it applies or where it
can fit into some of the places that Christianity sort
of does and doesn't necessarily follow through with as well.

(01:46:04):
And so there's a lot of gaps. I think both
sides have their own gaps that I think feel very
well with if you bring them together. It's two different
pieces of the puzzle that you know, you get the
full picture when you actually apply them. And one of
the ways in which Buddhists think, you know, in as
far as the Buddhist philosophy goes, is that everything is

(01:46:25):
an appearance of the mind. We're talking about a little
bit about that in the first hour. And you know,
if that's true, and I do think it is, then
that's where all that darkness comes from. Because you know,
as you just admitted, and I do too. You know,
we have all of us are not perfect, we will
have unkind thoughts and and Christians will refer to this

(01:46:49):
as sinful nature. And and that is all in here,
which means that this is the projector for all of
it out here. And therefore where do all these dark
forces come from? Well from in here. We're the one.
We're projecting it out and manifesting it literally out of
our own consciousness. I mean, that's literally what the devil

(01:47:12):
is in Judaism. It's not a creature like it is
in Christianity. It's it's a it's it's the proclivity of
man to do wrong, and that is called the yet sahara.
But it's not a person. It's not a it's not
a being, it's not even a fallen angel. It's literally
just the parts of yourself that are self interested and
do the wrong thing that can take on a life

(01:47:34):
of its own. And as you know from chaos magic
in the Western mystery tradition, thought forms are something to
contend with. They develop a consciousness of their own, and
they are projections of ourselves that become fully sentient and
in external in a way can affect the external world.
So this is why it's so important to do what
you're describing.

Speaker 5 (01:47:56):
And and also as much as they're projections, which I
agree with, they're also magnets. Right when we when we
create these things and we manifest them in a way,
it's almost like a Gollum, right, you know, we're creating,
we're we can we can project and manifest something out

(01:48:20):
of nothing. But when we create those things, when we
project that negative energy, we also draw that negative energy
back into us. It doesn't project out of us and
leave us and exist over here. It remains a duality

(01:48:40):
of you know, and magnifies and grows within us as
it grows without us. I have a friend of mine
who I love dearly, and I still have a lot
of hope for her. Maybe she might be watching this,
who knows who got very excited when she learned the
work that I was doing. And and I'm gonna I'm

(01:49:06):
going to use the word and and hope it doesn't
trigger too many people, because I don't think it's a
bad word. But uh, she practices witchcraft. And but there
are different types of witchcraft, right, there's Glinda and there's
you know.

Speaker 2 (01:49:24):
The Witch of the West.

Speaker 5 (01:49:26):
So and it's it's a it's a it's a we laugh,
but it's it's a real representation of of what witchcraft,
contemporary witchcraft really is. Right, Yeah, it's it's also But anyway,
without getting going down that road, maybe we can do
that next year. She uh, she practices witchcraft, but she

(01:49:47):
practices baineful witchcraft, and she practices left path uh magic.
And I've told her, you know, she does curses and
all of and I've told her a million times. I'm like,
why are you doing this? Whatever you're trying to inflict
on somebody else, regardless of your level of success, And

(01:50:10):
I hope it's not regardless of who they may be,
it's coming back to you. It's infecting you. It's poisoning you.
It doesn't leave you. You can project it out, but
it grows within you. It's that magnet, right, And so
I believe when we project good and we project light,

(01:50:36):
that is what grows and magnifies within us. And I
will also suggest for people who may be listening who
don't feel it, and may feel that that is inauthentic
when they do that, because they're really angry or mad
or filled with hate for somebody. And so to say

(01:50:59):
something positive or to to put or project positive hopes
or thoughts out to them doesn't resonate as authentic. That
doesn't matter. You can. Putting it out there is like
planning a seed and it grows. So whether it's balefull

(01:51:23):
or you know, or baneful or or or dark, or
whether it's you know, filled with hopes of harm to
none right and goodness, and and like we don't have
to hope for goodness for for people we don't like

(01:51:46):
necessarily right, just saying harm no and no harm, that's powerful.
That's power. It's a powerful projection. And like I said,
when we project it, it grows inside of us. It's
it's like you know, Hermes turus begets this when he said,
as above and so below. Right, what is above is

(01:52:10):
divinity that we strive to know and to emulate. We
can never really reach in this lifetime, but we try,
we keep trying. And what is below us the material world,
what exists around us. But the idea of what is above,

(01:52:31):
as above and so below is not to draw down
what is above into this, you know, into this material
realm as we rise pasted it into the divine realm.
It's not passing each other. It's drawing these things two
things together within us, what is above within us and

(01:52:51):
what is below within us, to bring these two things
together into a hole. And that is the idea of
that projection, and how it magnifies within us. We can't
escape it.

Speaker 2 (01:53:04):
I like how you describe that there, and it's profoundly accurate,
because you're right, I mean, the whole thing. I guess
it's the wicking creed you know, to harm none, right,
it's part of their or. And if you do practice
something of a black magic nature, then it comes back

(01:53:25):
to you three times. It can some some traditions, say
eight or nine. I think it can get really out there.
And it's just like you said, you know, we don't
just because we project out doesn't mean it leaves us.
I think that's the most profound thing you said about it.
And that's what I think people do think is that
they and this look, you don't have to be a

(01:53:47):
witch to still have to follow the same rules of
the cosmos that you know, witches due. When we go
out there and just do mean things, cruel things in
the most mundane of ways, that's an evil that doesn't
leave you either. You know, you can harm other people financially, emotionally, sexually,

(01:54:10):
I mean, you can abuse people. In the end, yeah,
you hurt them, but in the end, all that comes
back and ends up destroying you in the same exact way.
Is that Pooky? By the way, is that Pooky right
there with? Oh, I haven't seen Pooky in so long.

(01:54:31):
There he there he is, look at it.

Speaker 5 (01:54:34):
He doesn't like he doesn't like camera lenses. It's very funny.

Speaker 2 (01:54:37):
Oh that is funny. I love that cat. It's a
great cat. Yeah you got you got Pooky and Transylvania
was it was it?

Speaker 5 (01:54:47):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:54:48):
Yeah, it's it's a true Transylvanian kitty right there.

Speaker 5 (01:54:52):
He is from from a little village called Creche, which
is just a couple of min else from Sigishwara, which
is the birthplace of Vlad Tepish, who was also known
as Lad the Impaler, was Bromstoker's model for Count Dracula.

Speaker 2 (01:55:12):
That was during the filming of The Nun right when
you when you found her him Sorry him, sorry.

Speaker 5 (01:55:20):
Yeah, that's okay. Yeah. And then I brought him to
Atlanta and you got to meet him at uh on
the Conjuring three and did a blessing.

Speaker 2 (01:55:30):
Yeah, And as soon as I came through the door,
he jumped round on my shoulders. He was very excited.
Oh that was a great cat. Great, that's a great cat.
Really a great cat. But yeah, you know what I
want to say, and I want to get into this
a little bit more in the in the in the
third hour, is that I know that there are people

(01:55:52):
out there that want to get in or involved in
some type of spiritual practice, regardless of what it is.
It might be nation for some, it could even be
witchcraft for others. We've had discussions of witchcraft, and we've
had witches on this show several times, in fact, some
good friends of mine in fact, and we've talked about
some of these things. And there are obviously going to

(01:56:14):
be people that that is a spirituality that resonates with them.
You know, I'm not a person that says, oh, you know,
you can't do that. That's wrong, that's against God. I
don't believe that for one thing. And second of all,
I would never do that even if I did believe it,
because I feel that people have to find their own path,
and I do think that paths necessary don't necessarily or

(01:56:36):
aren't necessarily things that you choose, but are rather things
that find you and choose you and bring you into them.
I really do feel this way. I don't think I've
ever chosen any spiritual practice I've ever done. I think
it's always come to me. It's always reached out to me,
and I follow it because I'm a curious person and

(01:56:56):
I enjoy learning the things and experiencing these things. But
for people that are out there that are looking to
maybe get into some of these practices, I think it
is important for them to understand and know how to
develop their own relationship with whatever guides or spiritual forces

(01:57:19):
that are available to them that can protect them. So
when we come back here, we're going to ask James
that very question and hopefully give you all some insight
as to how to proceed in your own spiritual work,
whatever it might be. Okay, don't go away, We'll be
back after this show.

Speaker 10 (01:57:39):
The way our was a hard beIN no sounds.

Speaker 2 (01:57:44):
You came around here, you should.

Speaker 11 (01:57:46):
Be gods lad in the darkness you would the then needed.

Speaker 5 (01:57:53):
They'll we got older.

Speaker 10 (01:57:55):
Boois stay the same same no sung.

Speaker 2 (01:58:05):
Your leg and mine, oh noose.

Speaker 7 (01:58:09):
Story like simphony other memory.

Speaker 2 (01:58:16):
The world don't be where the six way.

Speaker 7 (01:58:23):
Oh no stond like simply other memory?

Speaker 5 (01:58:30):
Is the world.

Speaker 1 (01:58:42):
Like simphony of memory?

Speaker 6 (01:58:46):
The world?

Speaker 12 (01:58:48):
What if the years turning to go The longer we
live here, the more we grow.

Speaker 10 (01:58:55):
We could be hundred miles of park, but it's that far. Yeah,
you show me cars.

Speaker 11 (01:59:03):
Lad in the darkness, you were the only then needed.
Then we got a older boobies say the same spell.

Speaker 7 (01:59:12):
I be nels blaming no no sudjo lego.

Speaker 5 (01:59:21):
And my head, Oh no star.

Speaker 7 (01:59:27):
La symphony.

Speaker 1 (01:59:29):
I'm a memory.

Speaker 5 (01:59:31):
The world.

Speaker 7 (01:59:35):
Don't be were the simpley oh no song.

Speaker 6 (01:59:42):
Lack a symphony.

Speaker 7 (01:59:44):
I'm a memory.

Speaker 11 (01:59:46):
The world.

Speaker 6 (01:59:50):
Lack symphony.

Speaker 7 (01:59:53):
The world.

Speaker 1 (01:59:57):
Like simphony.

Speaker 5 (02:00:05):
Don't you way?

Speaker 13 (02:00:27):
I'm walking the long streets empty. The only thing now
I just see is the phone sit a gain is strong.

Speaker 10 (02:00:37):
Step by step the clock sticking back to snows and
for meats all fly from town to town, from long
to sign.

Speaker 2 (02:00:51):
I've been all around the Gold try to.

Speaker 14 (02:00:56):
P say your soul real tonight we will fly over
the sky. Feel to nine.

Speaker 11 (02:01:15):
Feeling we will.

Speaker 12 (02:01:20):
Fly over the Scotch now feel time not mine? Ready

(02:01:51):
to go ride up in the sky.

Speaker 13 (02:01:55):
I need you to listen and need you to hate again,
Joe anything. I've been flying from sound to sound.

Speaker 12 (02:02:07):
From to sign, happen all around the Gold, Shine to.

Speaker 4 (02:02:16):
Be say your soul real.

Speaker 5 (02:02:21):
Tonight.

Speaker 4 (02:02:23):
We will fly the sky real.

Speaker 13 (02:02:30):
Now real.

Speaker 14 (02:02:37):
Tonight, we will fly over the sky.

Speaker 7 (02:02:43):
REALO now.

Speaker 13 (02:03:30):
Sid I've been flying from south to town, from London
to Silent.

Speaker 10 (02:03:47):
I been all around the Gold trying to protect your soul.

Speaker 2 (02:04:10):
Sto Welcome back everyone to the third and final hour

(02:05:29):
of Vestiges after Dark. It's been an exciting conversation so
far talking about these angelic forces, spiritual forces that can
guide us through the spiritual work that we do. In
this case, mostly divination that we've been referring to, but
they can be applied in multiple ways. It's important to
have a relationship with the divine in some way, and

(02:05:51):
I think this is one way in which that can
be achieved. When we come back here, we'll be asking
James about how you yourself can dive up this relationship,
at least according to your own sensibilities. I'm sure Father
Chris and Brandon Milam have some questions as well, and
of course you might have some as well. You can

(02:06:11):
call into the show at two seven five four four
nineteen eighty three if you've got a question for our
guests tonight. James two seven five four four nineteen eighty three.
It's been a bit of a quiet chat this evening,
but if you have questions, go ahead and put them
in the chat room and Father Chris and Brandon will
bring them to James's attention and we'll see what he
has to say about it. But yeah, it's been a

(02:06:33):
great one so far. Don't go anywhere. We'll be back
in just a moment. I think the sink the single

(02:08:00):
greatest challenge to anybody embarking on a spiritual journey, whether
it be one that is more metaphysical like what we're
describing here tonight, or one that is more traditional. Be
it you know, Christian, Catholic, you know, Jewish, or whatever,
whatever your particular Buddhist, whatever your spiritual path might be.

(02:08:21):
One of the challenges I think we always must face
is when and how to discern on authentic spiritual experience
from one that is just the mind deluding itself, you know,
our imagination taking on the life of its own, because
it is just that powerful. Believe me, all those projections
we were talking about in the last hour, projections of

(02:08:43):
evil that you know, become manifestations of one's mind in
the form of toulpas thought forms, eggrigors can also project
inward too and convince you that they're real when they're
not so. James, I'd like this is a two part question,
and then we can see what the rest of the
audience has and the rest in our panel here tonight
what questions they might have for you. But I would

(02:09:05):
like to know, for the sake of the audience, how
do they develop this relationship for themselves and how do
they discern on authentic guide from maybe they're some imaginary
part of themselves that feels real but is actually leading
them astray. How how do you do that?

Speaker 5 (02:09:28):
Yeah, I mean it's a it's an important question, and
it's a tricky one to answer because there's not really
the perfect answer to that, right, right. So I think
that there are components that can help people make that

(02:09:56):
discernment in the same way that I can give you
a recipe and I can give you you all the
ingredients and the instructions. It doesn't mean that you're going
to make the dish the same way I do. You
might improve on it. You might you might make it
worse than I do, right, or or whatever, but but

(02:10:18):
you have the pieces. Hold on just a second. I'm
so sorry.

Speaker 2 (02:10:22):
Oh you're fine.

Speaker 5 (02:10:25):
Yeah, he's coughing.

Speaker 2 (02:10:29):
Oh you know, my cat's been coughing too. I think
there's something going around that they're they're catching.

Speaker 5 (02:10:35):
Yeah, it'll pass here in the second. But I think
in part it was probably just because he was sitting
there on my shoulder like that so much. No, I
think he has a hair ball.

Speaker 2 (02:10:49):
They come and go, don't they?

Speaker 5 (02:10:55):
Yeah, No, not normally. Okay, sorry, No, you're fine, you're fine.
Can you bear with me just one moment?

Speaker 2 (02:11:10):
Yeah, sure, my apologies, Father Chris. What do you think
about discernment in terms of from the Christian vantage point?
How do how would you advise a a person, a Christian,
how to tell the difference between their own self delusion
and you know, God or an angel, their guardian angels.

(02:11:34):
How would they be able to tell the difference.

Speaker 4 (02:11:40):
This is quite common in parish life. I think that
I would.

Speaker 3 (02:11:46):
It would depend on if we're talking about I assume
you mean a genuine person, someone that's really genuinely trying.

Speaker 2 (02:11:52):
To figure these sure, you know, very genuine, very you know,
always at church, part of your community.

Speaker 3 (02:11:58):
A lot of the time people people use that as
a power play, right So okay, so accenting his genuine
I've said it on the show before.

Speaker 2 (02:12:08):
What what we have to do.

Speaker 4 (02:12:12):
Personal experience is essentially anecdote right now. You don't dismiss
that if you if you like the.

Speaker 3 (02:12:22):
Vision of the church that we describe the traditional you
know vision of the church is from the Latin traditio
that's which has been handed on from age to age.
So it has its origin in the in the faith
once revealed to the saints, and then it's been handed
on over the years, and there's some winny wing and
that goes on in that and it's not a simple

(02:12:45):
copy and paste. You know, each age interacts with that
revelation and passes that on to the next generation. God
is perfect and therefore God does not change his mind.

Speaker 4 (02:13:01):
Because we are.

Speaker 3 (02:13:02):
Imperfect, which is why we need to change our mind.
In fact, the first words in the Gospel Metanoite allow
your mind to be changed. But God is perfect, So
I would say anecdotal experience has to be weighed against
the revelation of the perfect God through the ages. Therefore,

(02:13:24):
we should look for previous experiences of this revealed in
the lives of the saints. That's why we studied the
lives of the saints. Right If you say, actually, I
had a vision of it, of an interior castle inside me,
then then you go, well, you might want to read
some centories of Avala, you know, and we could say
this is a consistent revelation. This has happened before, and

(02:13:46):
it's based upon solid foundations, and we might want to
explore that.

Speaker 4 (02:13:50):
Now, that does not necessarily mean like the life of
series of.

Speaker 3 (02:13:53):
Avala, it becomes uh something which can be the promoted
throughout the whole church. You could just be a blessing
for you and your own life. But what we can
definitely say is if you're an anecdotal experience of what
God is telling you is completely opposed to what God

(02:14:14):
has revealed as his will through the ages, then probably
it's not God speaking to you.

Speaker 5 (02:14:21):
So and you know, as.

Speaker 3 (02:14:23):
Traditional Christians, we would weigh that against the scriptures, you know,
the Bible, against the lives of the saints, against the
teachings of the Magisterium of the Church, you know, documents
that have been put out, and the good news is
and what I've encourage people to do is to say,
there's loads of this material. Just go on the Holy
Ses website, for example, the Vatican website, and you can

(02:14:46):
read every encyclical that we that's known that's been issued
by a pope. And that's just one source of material
that there's There are so many sources of material to
test whether your experience is so, thing which you know
is part of a noble tradition so that you can
learn more from, or perhaps something which, if it goes

(02:15:08):
against what the consistent revelation of God through the Church is,
something which you might want to place less emphasis on
in your life.

Speaker 2 (02:15:15):
That's a good answer. So, James, I'm not sure how
much of that you were able to catch, but I
think you saw most of it. I asked Father Chris
the same question, only what would you know how about
a Christian discern you know that this is an angel
talking to them, God speaking to them versus because a
lot of people that believe this, particularly in like the
charismatic movements. There's people that believe that the Holy Spirit's

(02:15:38):
revealing something and then it turns out to be a
lot of wild stuff. We see this in cults, even
people claiming that God's speaking to them, and then they
go and lead whole groups of people astray, even to
the point of suicide, as we've seen in some places.
So clearly unfortunately, Yeah, so clearly we can be led
astray by these experiences. They can feel very and I'm

(02:16:00):
not going to say, like David Koresh or all these
people you know, were necessarily lying. Maybe some of them were.
Maybe he was. I don't know, but I would I
would venture to guess, like Heaven's Gate, for example, I
think they really believed. I think he really believed in
what he was teaching. I don't think he was leading
these people. Yeah, so how do you just from your

(02:16:23):
vantage point, how do you discern it? And how would
you guide other people to make that determination.

Speaker 5 (02:16:31):
I really like what Father Chris had to say about
the noble tradition, and I think that that's an important consideration.
It's not the first thing that I go to. But
I don't come at all of this from the same
perspective that you guys are meaning. I'm not I'm not

(02:16:58):
I'm not working the church and the tenants of the
church daily us as my occupation as well. But but
the noble tradition, I think that that that that's an
important part of it to understand what other people's experiences
are and what has been potentially validated by UH spiritual leaders.

(02:17:27):
But for me, it's when I go back to that
analogy of the recipe. Right, there's like certain ingredients and
and then I have to measure at the end when
I've put them all together, did it Did it come
out right? And those ingredients are things like humility? And

(02:17:53):
you know where is my humility in this? Am I
am I absolutely certain? Or is there room for error?
Might I be wrong? How can I be right if
I don't entertain the idea that I might be wrong? Right?
In my perception, I think that that's an important thing

(02:18:17):
to have an important component. I think Another important component
is our purity of intent. So now I'm talking about
you know, working with guides intentionally asking them for help.
So but if you have an experience that is outside

(02:18:40):
of you know, imploring help for guidance, then that's something
to measure as well, Like where are you when that
came through? Is there a purity that you have in that?
Not pure, We're not wholly pure, but it's the purity

(02:19:03):
of your intent. It is important, right I can have
purity of intent and still be a polluted soul. I
think that is important as well. Part of when I'm
when I'm asking for guidance, that the way that I

(02:19:25):
prepare and cleanse my space in asking for that guidance,
how I open it and balance. These are all things
that help me get out of my way to understand
what I'm seeing or hearing or the messages that are

(02:19:47):
coming through. I don't know if that entirely makes sense,
but when I if I have humility, being open to
maybe not being right, which I think is important, I
have a purity of intent. If I clear my space,
if I do my breathing, if I get my mind
in the right space, if I get my body in

(02:20:08):
the right space right when I do readings, when I
go into doing this work, it's important for me to
eat cleanly, to be more pure of you know, not
to drink alcohol within a certain period of time, or
do any kinds of drugs. Not that I'm doing drugs,

(02:20:31):
but you know, I take pain medication sometimes. So just
being being having a space that is where my body
is clean and matches the intent that I'm trying to
you know, come out with my mind. I think that
these are all important things to take into consideration in

(02:20:55):
understanding whether what's coming through is authentic or not, because
how can you know if it's as if your mind
is polluted. Yeah, it's already confused. So you have to
kind of get out of your own way and then
you have to be able to I mean, part of

(02:21:16):
that humility or understand that you're not right is there's
no there's no answer that says you can do this
and you'll know for sure. So, you know, how does
the presence feel? Does it feel right? If it doesn't
feel right, If something feels kind of off, then it's

(02:21:40):
probably off, you know. And if it's you that's off
and not the divine presence or or whatever, that it's
in that's in your sphere. If it's if it's a
pure presence that's in your sphere, and it still doesn't
feel right, then you're not right. So if it doesn't
feel right, step back, you know, That's what I would say,

(02:22:05):
pay attention. This is going to sound a little woo
in New agey, but vibrations, right, I feel a resonance.
I feel like a physical vibration of space and enveloping
warmth when like it just everything just kind of feels good.

(02:22:28):
I don't know if that really helps to answer questions.

Speaker 2 (02:22:32):
No, I think it does, and I don't think it's
actually too far from the kind of mindset that Father
Chris was talking about either, you know, weighing it against
I mean, obviously some of these metaphysical traditions don't have
a scripture to weigh against, a magisterium to weigh against,
some kind of authority to weigh against. So it's going

(02:22:55):
to differ in that regard. But what is weighing against
these things? What is that? Ultimately it's is a type
of humility. It's a type of surrender to something greater
than yourself to get out of your own way for
the purposes of objectivity in the sense that you're not
going to imprint again wants or feelings or fears into

(02:23:17):
the scenario. You want a clear understanding, and even if
it's something that you really don't want to hear, you're
willing to receive it anyway. And I think having a
purity of intent, I'm saying that it's certainly what the
saints did, and perhaps that's how they were able to
have some of these profound spiritual experiences, is that their

(02:23:38):
intents were so pure that they were so selfless in
their pursuit. They weren't doing these things for self serving motivations.
They were doing them to align themselves to a higher purpose.
They would say, align themselves with the will of God.
But you know, ultimately it's kind of getting into the
same territory here. So I think I do get it.

(02:24:01):
I think that makes sense, and I think it is meaningful.
So how would you then apply that to a person
who wants to then begin Let's say they buy their
first tarot deck and they're starting to learn all about it,
and they've studied and they're ready to do their first reading.
What can they do to find the kind of spiritual

(02:24:24):
aid that you're describing what should be their next step.

Speaker 5 (02:24:35):
So this is from my experience in my practice, right.
So the first thing I would say is whatever I say,
if something works for them for you, take it, and
if it doesn't work, discard it.

Speaker 2 (02:24:54):
It's very Buddhists of you. By the way, it's very
Buddhist of you. That's exactly what he said magic that.

Speaker 5 (02:25:02):
Yeah, using what works, I mean it's don't try and
force a square peg into a round hole. Right. So
so that being said, what I would suggest is if
you're if you if there are two different things, reading

(02:25:23):
for somebody else and reading for yourself, it's a lot
easier to talk about reading for somebody else, right, So
I'm going to do that first, reading for somebody else.
Make sure first of all, examine and understand what you're doing.
You're doing for them. You're not really a part of

(02:25:46):
it other than a conduit. That's why I call in
the guides that I call in because I want I
want to connect to what needs to come through. And
so understand that you're not your your ego isn't a

(02:26:09):
part of it. Like your advice. You're it's not the
most important thing. Your lens is important how you interpret
what you see, your intuition, letting your intuition guide you.
That's important, That's part of it. People come because you

(02:26:29):
have a way of delivering a message, but you aren't
the message, right, So that's one thing to understand first.
Then I would say, you know, making creating some sort
of ritual around it that works for you. When I
say ritual, I know that that can maybe ritual is

(02:26:50):
a trigger word for some people. But what I mean
by that is simply have your the way that you
do things, figure out what they are, and do them
the same way every time. That is ritual, right. So
making sure that your space is clear and clean, that

(02:27:10):
your intent is pure, and that and you can do
these things by a couple of things that I've already
talked about. Making sure that your body is pure, making
sure that your mind is clear and your mind is pure.
Breathing exercises are really really helpful for that seems so simple,

(02:27:34):
but it's important you can just do rather than timing it.
You can say I'm going to do five deep breaths
in for account of four, hold it for account of four,
and breathe out for account of four. When you're breathing
in you're thinking about what it is that you're trying
to achieve or how you're trying to achieve it, and

(02:27:55):
then when you breathe out, you're letting go of that
and giving space for whatever needs to come through from
the divine right to come through, which might not be
what you expect or what you think. So I think
that those things are the most important things. The purity
of body, purity you know, which is your temple, preceding

(02:28:18):
the purity of mind, which is your clarity, and supporting
your purity of soul, which is your connection.

Speaker 2 (02:28:26):
Okay, that's great answer again, Brandon. Do you see any
questions in the chat that you would like to present?
I don't know if there have been any. I haven't
been watching the chat too closely this show, and Jamie's
not here, so I'm hoping that you're catching him if
there are any.

Speaker 6 (02:28:45):
Yeah, So I have a few questions of my own,
But there is one in the chat. It's from April.
What is a chaos magician and or chaos magic?

Speaker 5 (02:28:58):
So I am probably not going to define this very
well since I'm not an adept of chaos magic. But
I but but my understanding of chaos magic and how
I employ it as a ritual magician in the Western
mystery tradition is I take what works and I leave

(02:29:20):
what doesn't. And what works for me on one day
may not work for me on the next day. And
so instead of trying to force that square peg into
the round hole, I figure out where's the square hole
or where's the round peg? That makes sense, Like what works,

(02:29:42):
what works for me in this moment, what works for
me in this day, but still aligns with the basic
tenants of my beliefs and my practice.

Speaker 2 (02:29:53):
And yeah, so it's like almost like chaos theory applying
towards spiritual practice in a sense.

Speaker 5 (02:30:06):
Right, which is I mean, which is what my magical
practices and what the tradition is that I've grown up
in magic may not most of the time. You know,
when I say magic, people think of illusionists, right, you know,
David Copperfield, Doug Henting, people like that. I'm dating myself,

(02:30:27):
but David Blaine. But they think of you know, illusionists,
and and or they think of magic with a K
as being something dark, and what it really is is
a different word for an alignment that has its roots

(02:30:50):
in Christianity and many of its practices in Christianity, but
it doesn't necessarily have to be Yeah, a Christian practice,
does that make sense? Yes, But it is a spiritual
practice and it is aligned with the greater Good and
the highest Power.

Speaker 2 (02:31:10):
Okay, Brandon, you said you had some questions of your own.

Speaker 6 (02:31:14):
Yeah, I had to the first one. Are there any
PRETI oh English, Are there any particular tools, such as
like tarot or scrying that you believe angels are more
responsive through.

Speaker 5 (02:31:29):
That's a really great question. I don't believe that there's
one over another that they're more likely to connect to.
I think it's the intent of the practitioner, right, it's

(02:31:52):
the practitioner that the angels are working with, and so
with the practitioner maybe working through So for me, my
main practice is through tarot and and sometimes intersects with
oracle work, right, But I I work with other practices

(02:32:24):
like scrying and casting. And I've recently been intrigued by
basket divination, which is something I learned about in Oxford
earlier this year. So there are and there are all

(02:32:46):
kinds of divinatory practices out there that I wasn't aware
of and I'm still not aware of, and hard to
imagine it's a cultural right. We approach these things culturally,
and so so I think that the simple answer is no.
I don't think that there is one over another that

(02:33:06):
they connect to, but I do think that it's through
the practitioner that they connect. So if the practitioner is
works more resolutely through scrying, then I think it's important
that their purity of intent and guidance is aligned with

(02:33:31):
that practice. If that makes sense. It's with the practitioner
and not with the practice.

Speaker 2 (02:33:40):
That does make sense to me, and it's consistent with
anything I've ever experienced. I mean even right down to
you know, standard traditional Christian practice. I mean it always
you know, you can have all the embellishments and all
of the wonders of a grand cathedral, and I'm not
going to say that that doesn't help one to really

(02:34:00):
get into the moment, but I mean, ultimately, it still
comes down to you and God, and it's always going
to be through you that that experience occurs. It's not
going to be through a building or an object or
an icon or something. It's it's going to be through you.
That's what makes the sacrament so sacred. It is because

(02:34:20):
they are interactions with you. With the divine it's not.
I mean, the church is the means through which it's achieved.
But it's not the building, and it's not the institution.
It's you and God and that's the beauty of it,
you know. So I get it. I get it perfectly, Brandon,
what was your so go ahead? Good?

Speaker 5 (02:34:40):
No, no, no, it's it's That's what I was saying
earlier about tools, right, And one of the things that
there are a lot of things in the Catholic Church
that intersect with Western mystery tradition in terms of ritual well,
they were.

Speaker 2 (02:34:54):
All priests that created the Western mystery tradition.

Speaker 5 (02:34:58):
You know.

Speaker 2 (02:34:59):
They were twer cards were you know, a little instruction
cards at one point. You know that one of the
oldest tarer decks is like there's images of the life
of Jesus on it.

Speaker 5 (02:35:11):
You know, absolutely, And here I'll show you this is
uh uh, I'm not I'm not getting reimbursed or paid
or anything. In fact, I bought this deck myself, but
this is one of my favorite decks to work with
and one of the things that opened me to ah
understanding the angelic forces that were that we're asking to

(02:35:35):
be a part of my practice like, hey, listen, James, like,
can we come in? It's it's a beautiful deck and
and so it comes at it obviously from a perspective.
But even if you look at the right way Smith,
and this is something that I talk to people in

(02:35:56):
the shop all the time who haves about the about
using tarot and its intersection, you know, being potentially evil
or connecting to something dark. Is the writer way Smith,
tarot deck is it's so replete with Christian iconography that

(02:36:22):
it's I find it more difficult to help people who aren't, uh,
who aren't Christian, or who aren't really devout in their Christianity,
or have trauma associated with you know, Christian beliefs. I
have more difficulty trying to help them connect with the

(02:36:42):
deck than you know, because of all of the Christian
iconography that's in there. The whole point of taro is
not is not to tell you your future or to
connect you with bringing in dark forces. It's to help
connect you to divine. It's to help you see what's
happening and bring you closer to an enlightened spiritual path.

Speaker 2 (02:37:09):
Beautifully said. That's beautifully said. Its actually I mean it's
it's profoundly accurate. Let's just say that I think, you know,
people think taro, they think fortune tellers, they think, you know,
psychics on the on the main road. You know that
you pull in and you get like some kind of
fortune told about you know this person, you're going to
neon psychics? Yeah, now are the fairs, you know, the

(02:37:32):
Renaissance festivals always have a few psychics, and they're not
typically very good, at least in my experience, they weren't
very good. I actually went to one once and they
they they were reading directly from the book that came
with the cards. Oh wow, I'm paying you forty dollars
to read to me. Oh that's really nice. I could
have bought the deck for forty bucks. You know, Brandon,

(02:37:54):
you said you had a second question for James.

Speaker 5 (02:37:57):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (02:37:57):
So I'm kind of curious because when I start investigating,
I got a lot of criticisms. So my question be,
how do you respond to critics who view angelic communications
as incompatible with their understanding of religious teachings.

Speaker 5 (02:38:20):
Yeah, that's a great question. It's also not something that
I've encountered yet, so I have to kind of like
imagine how I would respond to that. And and I suppose,
you know, at the risk of repeating myself, it would
be in a similar way. That is a few things.

(02:38:48):
One I don't I don't want to defend myself, right.
I don't feel like I'm in a like I need
to be defending my spiritual connection with angelic guides or
with God or whatever it may be, right or however

(02:39:11):
I connect with the divine. Sure, if somebody is really
interested in understanding, So that's the first thing. If somebody
is challenging me, if it comes from the perspective of
challenging me, then I don't really want to engage. But

(02:39:32):
if they're really curious, then it comes down to a
lot of the things that I've already said. You know,
what is the purity of intent? What is my experience? Like?
What are the teachings? Tell me what the teachings are
that you feel are incompatible? And how are they incompatible?

(02:39:53):
Because my experience with spirituality and connecting with God is
is not it's not through books or through the interpretation
of man right that informs it. And like Father Chris
said in terms of like that, I love that term

(02:40:14):
the noble tradition. It's important, it counts for something, but
it's not the pinnacle of my faith and it's not
the pinnacle of my practice. So if somebody can, can
you restate the question just so I make sure that
I'm answering it.

Speaker 6 (02:40:32):
Yeah, how do you respond to critics who view angelic
communication as incompatible with their understanding of religious teachings?

Speaker 5 (02:40:41):
So yeah, So if it's a critic who is who
has an agenda, then I'm not going to engage. But
if it's somebody who is really curious, then I would
want to know, like, what is that incompatibility? Because I

(02:41:01):
don't see the incompatibility.

Speaker 3 (02:41:04):
Yeah, I think I think, in fairness to you, James,
it's more of a it's more of a question that
should ask a person from their own tradition.

Speaker 4 (02:41:11):
More than.

Speaker 5 (02:41:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:41:16):
I mean, because I was just thinking about that. You know,
one of the benefits I think you have, James, And
you said you've never encountered it, so you'd have to
think about how you would you answer it if you did.
I think one of the benefits you have with you know,
working with the institutions you work with, and working in
this particular arena of the metaphysical realm, you're going to

(02:41:37):
naturally be kind of immersed with people who are very
open minded and willing to learn new things, whereas you know,
maybe something that Brandon's realm, it's going to be far
more closed. You know, he's out there in Tennessee, you know,
under the oppressive dogma of the Bible belt.

Speaker 5 (02:42:00):
You know, I have family that is not a part
of this world.

Speaker 2 (02:42:05):
So I get it there you go, you know, so yeah,
I mean I would think though that you know, it
helps to be I mean, I think that was the
refreshing breath of the breath of fresh air for me
when I used to be more actively involved in the
metaphysical side of things. Is it was not always nice,

(02:42:26):
the open mindedness and the willingness and to learn new things.
The part I didn't like was you couldn't always reel
everyone in. So a lot of the things that you
talk about, you know, that sort of give foundation and structure,
which is important. I think sometimes in the metaphysical realm

(02:42:48):
you have people that don't want any structure of any kind.
And I don't know if you can really go very
far that way. I mean, you certainly, you know, you
take the mundane pursuit of learning a field of study,
you know, anyone can pick up medical books and read them.
But you know, without the structure of medical school, you're

(02:43:08):
not going to be able to practice. No one's going
to take you seriously, and you're not going to ever
become a person that can be truly trusted. The structure
makes that possible. It makes you safe. And I think
sometimes open minded people forget that that, you know, we
need structure, and unfortunately people in the church think that

(02:43:32):
structure is the be all and end all of all things,
and then that just leads to closed mindedness. You need
a little bit of both. You know, you need to
be balanced. And I think everything that you've shared with
us tonight, James, and I mean not just because I
view you as a friend, but also because I see you,
you know, as a person who is one of the

(02:43:53):
lights of the world. You know, really well intentioned, is
out there and sharing wisdom and guiding people spiritually in
your own in your own department, people that would never
probably ever come to me, and uh and and yet
getting great guidance in that sense. And and you're you're balanced,
you know, you're you're structured enough that you're not off

(02:44:15):
the deep end, but you're you're also open minded enough
that you're you're not limiting yourself and you're not limiting
others or forcing others to become limited. That's the biggest
problem I have with Christianity is that it's not a
limiting religion. It never was supposed to be that. It
became that.

Speaker 5 (02:44:32):
It shouldn't be.

Speaker 2 (02:44:33):
It shouldn't be. It became that, but it it doesn't
need to be. I mean, this is what part of
the nickelanger.

Speaker 4 (02:44:39):
It only becomes, only becomes that in the minds of people.

Speaker 2 (02:44:43):
I mean, it does, you know.

Speaker 3 (02:44:45):
I mean what you're trying to describe is the interaction
between you know, knowledge on a website or on paper
and being alive and experiencing things in real time. I mean,
that's the interaction that we're describing. I think, you know,
the word of caution is of course, where like I

(02:45:07):
said before, if, if what we want to do with
our lives.

Speaker 4 (02:45:13):
Is a complete rupture.

Speaker 3 (02:45:16):
From from that which has gone before, that's that's when
we should have a great deal of caution, you.

Speaker 4 (02:45:24):
Know, because because generally, like yeah.

Speaker 3 (02:45:30):
We're all individual and we live in that in an
age of rampant individualism, Like you know, our individualisms and
everything towards you know, which is silly actually in my opinion,
but because it's just a truism that we we are,
of course ourselves, but we're part of something much bigger.
And and when we try to isolate ourselves from from

(02:45:51):
everybody else and everything else that's gone before, we end
up completely turned in ourselves and lost and narcissistic and
e eccentric and depressed. So that's why we've got nihilistic
and an archaelic and exactly, and we're describing all of
the problems that Western countries are facing because we've gone

(02:46:13):
too far down that road, because because we're we're far
too self important actually, you see, we've.

Speaker 5 (02:46:22):
Lost sight of the social contract. You know. Well, now
I'm going into philosophy, but it's you know, in Rousseau.
But but that was that's one of the foundational tenets
of my it's it's part of my faith too. We
have a social contract. We have we have an obligation

(02:46:43):
not only to ourselves, but to you know, to our
fellow human beings and to our fellow creatures and to
the planet. We're not, well, we do, but we don't.

Speaker 3 (02:46:52):
But just to push back on Rousseau, who I think
is a criminal. I know he's a criminal. I have
a look at Russo and his children, just a little.

Speaker 7 (02:47:07):
To have.

Speaker 15 (02:47:12):
I don't know, and I know I'm just focusing on
the social contract. I'm about to redeem me. James, don't worry.
It wasn't that came up with those ideas. It was Jesus,
love God, neighbor him self. And Russeau is utterly.

Speaker 3 (02:47:28):
Wrong about about you know, man is born free and
everywhere in chains this is garbage.

Speaker 4 (02:47:35):
You know, is a real thing.

Speaker 5 (02:47:38):
And so.

Speaker 4 (02:47:40):
Sorry, I've read these things quite deeply. I like philosophy, so.

Speaker 2 (02:47:47):
Making my eyes burn from making me laugh to sorry.

Speaker 3 (02:47:53):
Sorry, I think, I think, I think between them Russeau
Nietzsche marks not not them, but the people who've placed
too much emphasis on them as opposed to other philosophers
that are around, have pretty much created the destructure of
the university and this hyper focus on hyperindividuality which has
been so devastating. So you end up, you know, notwithstanding

(02:48:17):
you know, Rousseau's idea of a social contract, Like I said,
I'm critiquing his approach to what he means by that,
not the fact, as you said, what the essence of
you said which is that we are we are in
fact you know, again, I'll go back to biblical principles.
It's not good for man to be alone. We're not
supposed to be alone. We don't exist in isolation. And

(02:48:39):
even the most miserly person who thinks, oh, you know,
I've made my own living and I've got my own money,
and I look after myself and I don't rely on
anybody else, you know, you think, okay, did you make
your own clothes, did you grow the cotton? You know,
it doesn't take long to realize that that is based
on a tissue of lies and nonsense. So so no,

(02:49:01):
I completely agree with the essence of what you said, James,
which is that we are in fact part of something
far bigger. And by the way, that's what makes life
worth living, because then we have to engage in negotiation
and in you know, the things.

Speaker 4 (02:49:15):
Yeah, there's difficulty in relationships, but they're also fulfilling. A
friendship is a great thing, a business contract is a
good thing. You know, all of these things are positives
where we have to actually.

Speaker 5 (02:49:27):
Acknowledge.

Speaker 3 (02:49:28):
Again, it's back to humility, that we cannot rule our
own lives, that we can't exist on our own that
we've not you know, been projected from the universe, as
this is my objection to Rousseau projected from the universe
as some you know tabula rasa being it's not true.
We are we are connected to everything that work before.

(02:49:52):
The wonderful thing about Christianity, by the way, just as
and you'd expect me to be in favor of it,
is to say that although Russo's wrong, because we're born
into original sin, were born into all of the stuff
that's gone before, good and bad. The wonderful thing about
Christianity is there's a remedy that says you're baptized and

(02:50:15):
therefore the chains that you're born into you're released from.
So it's actually the reverse of Russo. We're born in
chains and Christianity says us free from that. Now that again,
that's not to say that individual Christians or groups of
Christians have got that very wrong or have taught something

(02:50:35):
which has been destructive as a result of that. So
I hope I've kind of clarified my russo Ian hatred.

Speaker 5 (02:50:47):
It can't be challenged. Then what's the final.

Speaker 2 (02:50:53):
You've gotta have your your your father criticism for the night,
and that was it. You know, you're good.

Speaker 4 (02:51:02):
You could have put them together and put them out
on YouTube. People think I was some insane.

Speaker 2 (02:51:08):
TI somebody, you know, honestly, I mean that would be
a very funny video, Brandon. You should sometimes gather all
of the father criticisms and put them into one video.
That would be great time. It won't take a long time,
it will it'll be it'll be a ten hour video. Well, James,
I we're almost at the end here. I want to

(02:51:29):
give a chance for you to, you know, say whatever
final thoughts you might have on this, and also maybe
ways in which people can reach out to you or
any events that you've got going on that you'd like
to report. And the floor is yours.

Speaker 5 (02:51:45):
Yeah. I just like I do the work that I
do because I enjoy doing it. And it's the first
time in my life where I really feel happy and
fulfilled in the work that I do in every corner

(02:52:07):
of it, and so I feel really grateful. It's not
I'm not making a lot of money at it, which is.

Speaker 2 (02:52:14):
Fine, but.

Speaker 5 (02:52:17):
As long as I can make enough to keep doing
the work, that's all I really want to do. And
it's my goal. Is when I'm reading for people is
to help them and to to step out of the
way to deliver the message, you know, and to help

(02:52:37):
empower people. One of the things I wanted to mention
that I don't remember what sparked the idea but or
made me think of this. I tell my clients all
the time, I'm not telling you your future, I'm not

(02:52:59):
reading your fortune. I'm showing you a path. And in
this moment, it may be your most likely path given
everything that you are and you've done and you think
up to this moment. But you have free will, and

(02:53:19):
you have the ability to make decisions to either draw
this closer in or build on it so that it
becomes more powerful to you. If it's something that looks
good or is a positive aspect for you in your life,

(02:53:39):
if it's something that you want to avoid, or if
it's something negative, you have the free will to be
able to make decisions to avoid it or to lower
the impact of it if it's inevitable. Right, So, because
there are our forces that act upon us, that are
we don't have control over, right, but we can control

(02:54:02):
how we react to things.

Speaker 8 (02:54:03):
And so.

Speaker 5 (02:54:06):
I think it's and not only do we have free
will in looking at a reading of any kind. But
the people that are in our lives and all the
people of the world also have free will and can
be making different decisions that can affect the outcome of something.
So all you're getting is a glimpse. And if you're

(02:54:27):
getting a glimpse into a future, which is a potential
path you're it's really a reflection of the present because
it's where you are and what you're looking at in
your future. Right. So I want people to come out

(02:54:47):
of a reading, and I don't care if it's a
reading with me, or if it's a reading with you,
or or anybody, or a neon psychic or a roadside psychic,
you know, because I've got some of them, go to them,
because I will go get a reading from anybody because
I want to know how do people approach this, What
are they doing?

Speaker 2 (02:55:06):
That's why I do it. That's why I do it too, right, And.

Speaker 5 (02:55:10):
Some of them are good, you know, or maybe they
they had a good night, you know. I don't know
bad nights, but you know, we're human. But my point
is is that I don't care who is doing the reading.
I want people to feel empowered, and I want people
to approach divinatory practices, whether it's strying or or pasting

(02:55:35):
or you know, taro work as a tool of empowerment
and insight. That's it's its greatest strength and how it
can connect you that, you know, how do we get
that power and strength? You know, we draw from the

(02:55:56):
divine that that builds our power, trying to connect to
to reach and strive to emulate what is above and
bring that down below into integrate in our own selves.
That's that's really the point of it. And and and
then how that spreads out to other people, and how

(02:56:19):
that empowers and helps other people around us. If we're
not building people up, then what's the point. If we're
only trying to build ourselves up, we're not building ourselves up,
We're building a tower of babbles within our own soul. Yeah,
and that's pointless, right. So if we're not building up

(02:56:44):
ourselves and and and those around us, then we're not
serving ourselves. We're not serving society, we're not serving God.
And that's what I want people to come away from
anything that I do or anything that people.

Speaker 7 (02:57:01):
Like me do.

Speaker 2 (02:57:03):
Well, James, it's been wonderful and can't wait to do
this again next season. Brandon will be in touch and
so well. We will definitely say about getting out there
to see you guys, and thank you for being on
the show. Thank you so much. Thank you for having
me anytime. Father Chris, thank you.

Speaker 5 (02:57:21):
Yeah, James, junto dot com under events. That's where you
can see what I have upcoming. You asked me about that.
Oh yes, I sometimes forget to plug myself.

Speaker 2 (02:57:31):
No worries, no worries, no worries. Thank you again, James,
Father Chris, Thank you, Brandon, thank you, and a big
thank you to all of you out there for joining
us this evening on tonight's episode of Vestiges after Dark.
Without you, this show would be nothing. You are the audience,
and we do this because we care. We care about you,
and we hope to enrich you with a new and

(02:57:55):
perhaps better understanding of the world around you. That's what
this is all about, after all, we want to improve
right ourselves and each other. But next week we will
be answering questions about Catholicism. Brandon has compiled a very
exhaustive list. It's on the Nikkolan networking and rated. It

(02:58:16):
is about forty forty seven questions.

Speaker 7 (02:58:20):
You know.

Speaker 2 (02:58:20):
Yeah, that's next week Tuesday at eight pm Eastern time.
Until then, I will see you out there in the
east in the ether. God bless everybodysdislismus.

Speaker 1 (02:59:16):
Is the nests is thet is.

Speaker 8 (02:59:20):
The best is the

Speaker 1 (02:59:24):
Is, thegists is the best is the best

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Invoking Angelic Guides in Divinatory Practice with James Ferrera

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