Open Lines / Open Topics for April 29, 2025

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
And at.

Speaker 2 (00:54):
Day, good morning, good afternoon, good evening, whichever the case

(01:48):
may be. For all of you listening out there across
the crazy planet Earth, Welcome to Vestiges after Dark, and
I am your host, Bishop Brian Will At coming to

(02:09):
you lie from the deep woods of Western Georgia. On
this April twenty ninth, twenty twenty five. Tonight we cover
the subject of astrology. We have a brand new guest

(02:30):
for you tonight that we will be introducing in the
second and third hours. Of course, at first hour we're
going to cover some of the questions that have come
in from the ether. Of course, we've been out for
two weeks too, so things have been building up, lots
of crazy Internet issues, some new announcements to tell, stories

(02:51):
to tell. It's crazy stuff and we've got three hours
to talk about it, so don't go anywhere. Well, hello everybody,

(03:53):
once again, this is your host, Bishop Brian. We'll let
it with my co host Jamie Will and uh, it's
been quite a crazy experience here, as it always is
and it's always Internet related, but I think we are
finally starting to see the light at the end of
the tunnel with all of this Internet nonsense that has

(04:14):
made this season, particularly Season eleven, one of the most
difficult seasons to produce that.

Speaker 3 (04:20):
We've ever had.

Speaker 2 (04:21):
And we've always had internet issues ever since moving to
the deep Woods. Right been three years now, and we've
had troubled each season, some more than others, but this
has been really bad. We've had to cancel already two
episodes this season so far. Last week wasn't a cancelation.
It was Holy Week, and I hope everybody had a

(04:42):
wonderful Holy Week and a very celebratory Easter. I hope
you're enjoying the Easter season as I am. I've got
some good rest mostly, but as you all know, I've
been trying to get away from this terrible internet that
we have with AT and T. And it's not that
AT and T so much. The problems the fact that
they don't service fiber in our location because we're in

(05:05):
a rural, remote area, so we're lucky we can get
what we got. I've said it before, it's a fifty
megabyte download speed with a ten megabyte upload speed, and
that's the best case scenario. Sometimes we don't hit that,
and we've had all sorts of crazy issues for those
last three years. And finally I convinced them to come out.

(05:26):
They finally came out and they did some work at
the main hub twice where they shut us down, and
you know, we had internet with no internet for about
twenty four hours. And they found that our own wire
to this house was spliced into six different pieces and
six of those pieces were or five of those pieces

(05:48):
were just lying in the mud.

Speaker 3 (05:50):
So that was breaking up the signal.

Speaker 2 (05:52):
I've already talked about this, and they fixed all of
it and it's been a solid connection ever since. So
we were very grateful, and we thought, well, you know,
when fiber finally does come to this area, at least
we got this.

Speaker 4 (06:03):
Now.

Speaker 2 (06:04):
Well, guess what. Fiber finally came to this area, but
not with AT and T, with our power company, and
so I jumped on it as soon as it was available.
I said, you know what, we're running. We're not walking,
we're running to this and it actually is about half
the price of what we're currently getting with with AT

(06:30):
and T. Now here's the interesting part of it. Okay,
they came to put in the fiber line. They called
me and said, we want to run the fire fiber
line to your house as well. I didn't know it
was available yet. Oh it's not available yet. We just
want to get your house ready for it. So it's like, okay,

(06:50):
you know you need permission to come onto this property.

Speaker 3 (06:53):
It's gated.

Speaker 2 (06:54):
So they were calling to schedule when they could actually
come onto the property to run, which, as you know,
is a thousand foot or two thousand and they actually
told me it was two thousand feet of cable that
they needed, and.

Speaker 3 (07:09):
I was all, you know, already to.

Speaker 2 (07:12):
Say, like, sooner the better, just do it, okay, And
they told me it was going to be an aerial line,
and I thought, okay, well that's fine. Two thousand feet
of aerial lines. Interesting, but go ahead, it's power company,
what you know, what the hell? Well, it turns out
that it wasn't an aerial line. It was a buried line,
and the person that they sent out to bury it

(07:35):
ran the machine that digs into the ground right over
the AT and T line, completely disintegrating this line. Now,
they took no responsibility for it. They blamed AT and
T for it by saying, well, they didn't flag it properly. Well,
my response to them was, well, if it wasn't flagged properly, properly, then,

(07:59):
why didn't should call me and say, we can't run
this without the risk of damaging your current lines.

Speaker 5 (08:05):
Equipment to those buried wires.

Speaker 3 (08:07):
Of course, it's called a locator. Yes, it's called the locator.

Speaker 2 (08:09):
Yes, they just didn't want to do that, and so
it was back and forth. So we have been without
the internet here for almost one week. We just got
it back yesterday, just in time for the show. And
thankfully this happened the day after Holy Week, so Holy
Week was not disrupt it. But we had a whole
week without it, which is tough for me because I

(08:30):
run all of I run, not just the church from
here mostly, but I run my own business from here,
and so I was completely shut down. I can't even
begin to calculate some of the losses we incurred as
the result of not being able to connect. I don't
even want to think about it, to be honest.

Speaker 3 (08:51):
And I was very upset.

Speaker 2 (08:52):
And they sent several guys out here to try to
fix it, and they kept saying they found the break,
and they'd find the break, they'd splice it together.

Speaker 3 (09:00):
Still no internet.

Speaker 2 (09:02):
Eventually, AT and T did come out and they said,
your line is shredded we can't repair it. We're gonna
have to run a new one. So here's the interesting
thing about this whole thing. They branded the new one.
It's better than ever right now, it's better than it's
ever been. It's a solid connection, there's no latency. Practically,
you're probably getting a really good signal right now watching us.

(09:23):
And it's only for the next week because fiber is
activated next week, So the next show should be a
fiber connection one gigabyte up, one gigabyte down, and with
the option to upgrade to two gigabytes up, two gigabytes down.
And even the even the two gigabyte up and down
is still cheaper than what I'm paying currently for fifty

(09:47):
down and ten up. And the one gigabyte is half
the price of what I'm paying for what I currently
am using right now. So it's definitely worth doing. I
could have done without the headache, but it's definitely worth doing.
But what I like to know is they ran Okay,
the power company ran that fiber cable in about an

(10:09):
hour and fifteen minutes, all right, at and T came out,
ran a brand new one two thousand feet right about
the same amount of time. Why did Comcast tell me
that that's what's going to cost thirty thousand dollars to
run this line.

Speaker 3 (10:26):
That's what I want to know. You know, it's kind
of like.

Speaker 2 (10:33):
It's kind of like, you know, saying that we're going
to put you know, two hundred percent tariffs on China.
You know, that's not a tariff at that point. That's
called an embargo. So when you when you when Comcasts
told me that, you know, it's thirty thousand dollars to
front of line, you're basically just saying we don't want
you as a customer, because there is absolutely no way anybody,

(10:56):
any reasonable person would pay that, even if a you know,
even even if they're made of money, no one would
do that, Okay, And I don't understand why anybody would ask,
you know, even quote such a price when it literally
was about an hours and a half's worth of work.
I would love to know how you make you know,

(11:19):
fifteen thousand dollars a half hour or whatever that amounts to.

Speaker 3 (11:22):
But I mean, I.

Speaker 5 (11:22):
Want that to wrong business.

Speaker 2 (11:24):
Yeah, I'm in the wrong business too, because fifteen thousand
dollars every hour, thirty thousand dollars an hour and a half. Yeah,
I'll take it. What a crazy bunch of crap that was.
So yeah, I can't recommend comcasts at and T has
been good to us locally at least. And power Company well, well,
I'm not too pleased with you to be seen yet

(11:45):
to be seen.

Speaker 3 (11:46):
Not too pleased with I've seen so far.

Speaker 2 (11:48):
But hey, for for fiber, I think it's worth it
for you guys, definitely worth it, you know, So we'll
see how it goes. Joining us from Australia, we have
father Chris. Ye, it's how you're doing tonight.

Speaker 6 (12:01):
Father, I'm doing all right.

Speaker 7 (12:04):
He was minded when when people say it's light at
the end of the tunnel, you know, the the quip.

Speaker 6 (12:09):
But it could be a train coming the other way.

Speaker 2 (12:11):
Yeah, Well it has been a few times, hasn't it.

Speaker 3 (12:15):
It has been.

Speaker 7 (12:16):
I just I wonder whether I wonder whether they put
down your new cable they cut through the fiber.

Speaker 2 (12:22):
Well, he said, he told well, he hasn't buried that
one yet, so he but he did tell me that
when he dug he made sure that that nothing you know,
that he didn't interfere with the fiber. And he also
spray painted where the fiber was. But I'm going to
tell you right now, I'm not letting a C and
T come out there to bury it until we've got

(12:45):
fiber connected. And I'm not giving up. I'm not giving
up AT and T until I know fiber stays working.

Speaker 7 (12:52):
So well's the thing with these old companies, isn't it.
I mean, you know they drive us mad. I mean
we have Telstra here in Australia. They're kind of infamous.
You know, anyone that needs to phone Tellstra customer services.

Speaker 6 (13:03):
Like, you know, you sort of pretty have it. Yet
you gather the whole church to pray for them. It's
like they're doing an exorcism and so.

Speaker 7 (13:12):
But at the same time, they do tend to take
responsibility for things, so it's kind of it's one of
them in it.

Speaker 6 (13:18):
You know, they're sort of.

Speaker 7 (13:19):
They are pain to deal with, but they actually like
it doesn't surprise me, for example, that they came and
sorted out the cable connection in the end.

Speaker 2 (13:28):
Yes, So anyway, he actually to AT and T. He
actually told me they said, look, we're going to run
We're going to fix your line, whether you stay with
us or not. But he says, if you've got an
option to go with fiber, take the fiber.

Speaker 7 (13:43):
I think, I think, I think that's what you get
from a from an established company.

Speaker 6 (13:47):
You know, you get a bit more about in the end.
But the things are fine here.

Speaker 7 (13:51):
But just like your crazy top hat northern neighbors were
anticipating an election on Saturday here, so well, indeed, election
fever's here. And I mean, because voting is compulsory in Australia,
you get fined.

Speaker 6 (14:08):
If you don't turn up to vote.

Speaker 7 (14:11):
You can, you can, you can, I know, tell me
about you can vote your ballot in the bin, but
you have to you have to turn up.

Speaker 6 (14:18):
You know, you have to sit up and get your names.

Speaker 7 (14:20):
And also, as the most complicated system in the world,
so at a federal level, if you don't check every
box in numerical order of preferences, you vote won't count.
So they sort of make they make you vote. And
then you have to vote for everybody, even if you.

Speaker 6 (14:34):
Hate them hate them.

Speaker 7 (14:37):
So by the way, if there's like, you know, twenty
candidates on the ballot, you've got a number them one
to twenty in the order that you want. Other Wise
you vote doesn't count. And then you also vote for
the senators. Now this ballot paper was slightly less than
three years ago, but it's still I don't know. I mean,
it's I can't actually show you on the screen because

(14:58):
it's much wider than my my hands will allow me
to go names on it.

Speaker 6 (15:03):
Any kind of vote above the line, which is sort
of you.

Speaker 7 (15:06):
Know, then you vote, the preferences go to whoever the
parties want you to, which is, of course, if you're
anything like me, you don't want. Well, you've got below
the line where you have to number at least twelve boxes,
and they can be you know, there can be well
an unlimited number of people that stand for the.

Speaker 6 (15:20):
Senate below the line.

Speaker 3 (15:21):
So I did.

Speaker 7 (15:23):
I did, however, learn that there was a stated case
that if you voted in Roman numerals, it had to
be counted. So I thought, just to sort of drive
them mad on election day, I'll vote because I voted early.

Speaker 6 (15:34):
I'll vote in Roman numerals. So I look forward to them.

Speaker 2 (15:38):
I think we should conclave way, you know, will burn
the black smoke the right smoke. I just have fun
with it, you know.

Speaker 3 (15:44):
Well, And then the.

Speaker 7 (15:46):
Other thing is because voting is compulsory here and you
get fined. Oh by the way, at the state level,
they have preferences, but they're voluntary, so people get confused.
They turn them to the federal thinking they don't have
to preference everyone, so their votes don't count. It's almost
as though the two party systems got a vested in
interest in making it complicated.

Speaker 6 (16:03):
And so so.

Speaker 7 (16:04):
But because it's compulsory, they open up voting early, so
it's actually been open for over a week already, which
means that instead of having an election day, we have
an election season.

Speaker 6 (16:15):
So it's even worse than you can imagine.

Speaker 3 (16:18):
I want to imagine that sounds awful.

Speaker 2 (16:22):
Joining us from Tennessee, we have Brandon, mylem How you
doing tonight, Brandon, I'm pretty good.

Speaker 3 (16:29):
Father.

Speaker 8 (16:29):
Christian might want to consider moving to the States here
for that one. Because it's voluntary here.

Speaker 3 (16:34):
You can spyre. Its voluntary in the UK as well.

Speaker 6 (16:36):
I could move back there.

Speaker 7 (16:38):
I think I'll show you that one of the only
places in the world, sorry supposed democracies in the world
where they make you vote, well, they make you turn up,
they make you turn up.

Speaker 6 (16:46):
I must I must clarify that.

Speaker 2 (16:48):
I would never wish our political system and anybody so
you know, I mean, you've got a place here if
you want to move, but I wouldn't recommend it until things,
you know, temper.

Speaker 6 (16:56):
Down and.

Speaker 3 (16:59):
Maybe about you know, then that's safe to.

Speaker 6 (17:01):
Move Homer to maybe the Boldrooin sent me out.

Speaker 3 (17:08):
I honestly you could.

Speaker 2 (17:09):
You could get sponsorship to this church, so it would
be very possible for you, it would be so okay, Well,
let's get started with questions from the ether. I know,
you know, we've gone two weeks without it, so there's always, uh,
there's always some interesting questions that come in, and Brandon's
got three of them for us, So go ahead, Brandon,
what's our first one?

Speaker 8 (17:28):
So the first one is I did some research and
I figured out how both Christianity and Islam trace the
origins back to Abraham Jacob with Christianity and Ishmael with Islam.
But since their figures in Genesis and therefore a metaphorical book,
how are the two religions tracing their lineage back to

(17:50):
an individual who historically speaking, did not exist?

Speaker 2 (17:54):
Well, you know, all history after you go back far enough,
assuming you have enough distance between whatever point in time
you happen to be at and the time that you're
you're referencing, which is you know, almost almost a type
of prehistory. Really, it starts to enter into a legend

(18:15):
what I call legendary territory, all right, you start to
enter into the realm of legends. And that's because given
enough time, you know, things get remembered a certain way,
or rewritten a certain way, or or told a certain way.
Things get attached to events that happen. Now, this is
not to suggest that you know, these people weren't real,

(18:40):
at least real if we're talking real in a sense
of a historical context. There's nothing to say that Moses
and Abraham were not truly historical figures. But what is important,
I think to take away from this is that whether
or not there's historical relevance to them is less important

(19:00):
than what they represent as far as the theology is concerned.
So a lot a better way of perhaps understanding this
is how the Chinese look at the the three sovereigns
and five emperors of the ancient of ancient China. You know,

(19:23):
when you go back to the First Dynasty, these are legendary,
almost superhuman kind of figures. Now, was there a first
emperor of China? Yeah, of course that to have been
a first one, because we know that we had so
many of them, and these are historically verifiable, at least
to a certain point. So there had to be a

(19:44):
start to this empire, and there was obviously an emperor
that ran it was he this legendary you know, superhuman,
you know, demi god kind of person.

Speaker 3 (19:54):
Probably not, but.

Speaker 2 (19:56):
That's the legendary aspect that gets in fused into the
entire character of the story of the culture or whatever.
And this is what we've said so many times in
this show, what I've told my students so many times
that myth is both greater and truer than history, and
these kinds of things prove it, because myth talks to

(20:18):
us at a level that's beyond history, and I would
say is beyond fact if you could imagine that. I
think what's hard for people to understand, okay, is that
fact is not the highest reality when it comes to

(20:39):
something being true. It's actuality. But actuality is very broad, okay,
It doesn't follow any kind of tangible scientific rules. It
is much greater, much more transcendent than that. And so
religion taps into that high actuality that doesn't necessarily depend

(21:03):
upon things like history and scientific scientific observation. Uh to
be able to validate itself. It's validated at a level
of truth that's much more profound than that. Now, you
can't explain this to a materialist or a you know,
a nihilist or a scientist, you get you know, an atheists.

(21:24):
You can't explain that kind of thing because they're they're
too myopic. And in order to be a true philosopher,
you have to you have to be the opposite of myopic.
You you know, you have to have a very expansive
approach to everything. And I'm not talking open mind and
I'm not talking being incredulous either. I'm just simply saying, uh,
you have to you have to have a greater scope

(21:46):
of possibilities and being able to objectively explore each and
every one of those possibilities, which is what we do
on this show, and we talked about in the earlier
parts of the season. Yeah, simulation theory I don't present
these things is if they're my own opinions or something
that I personally believe in. I don't choose these topics
based upon what I believe. I choose them because they

(22:10):
are part of my philosophical musings that help to expand
my understanding of the universe. And I recognize in that
that the universe is much greater than anything I could
possibly imagine it to be. And that, unfortunately for people
that put all their eggs in the basket of science,
or even those that put all their eggs in the

(22:32):
baskets of faith and religion, you're still limiting yourself. It's
still greater than that, you know, And and and I
don't think there's any any any any Catholic, at least
maybe some there's some Christians that certainly would argue with this,
But I don't think there's any Catholic that would argue
with what I'm about to say.

Speaker 3 (22:51):
That even even if we were to have.

Speaker 2 (22:53):
A complete and perfect understanding of Christian theology, that wouldn't
even begin to scratch the surface of the reality of God.

Speaker 3 (23:02):
Wouldn't even begin. It's just enough for us, and vice versa,
and vice versa.

Speaker 7 (23:07):
If we understood all the mysteries of the universe in
a scientific method, well, actually everybody would believe in God,
but we would not have exhausted what is available to
the human mind to understand and experience. And if I
might say a couple of things about first of all,

(23:28):
the Christian Christians trace their their connection back to Abraham
through Jesus Christ. Now, yes, that then that then goes
on beyond, you know, backwards from Jesus to.

Speaker 6 (23:43):
The ancestry of his mother.

Speaker 7 (23:46):
But so in other words, Christians base their connection on
Jesus Christ, and the evidence for that is that he
rose from the dead, which is something that people believe
by faith because.

Speaker 6 (23:58):
Of the accounts of those that witness it.

Speaker 7 (24:00):
So so so it's not that, you know, so I
want to push back slightly on the premise of the question.
The Islamic tracing back to Ishmael is in my opinion,
far more dubious.

Speaker 6 (24:11):
But you know, I would I would say that it's.

Speaker 7 (24:14):
A kind of phrase, and so so I think I
think that's that's an important thing to mention that, you know.

Speaker 6 (24:23):
The other thing I want to say is when.

Speaker 7 (24:25):
They say, when people ask what's the archaeology archaeological evidence
that supports blah blah, what's the evidence that suggests these
people were real?

Speaker 6 (24:33):
The one piece of evidence they ignore the scriptures.

Speaker 7 (24:37):
But it's as though it's as though these these they
were written yesterday by us, you know, And that is.

Speaker 6 (24:48):
A form of evidence. I mean, you know, if if
an archaeologist.

Speaker 7 (24:52):
Received a story of a trial of somebody in ancient Egypt,
they wouldn't say, oh, but is it.

Speaker 6 (24:57):
True or not?

Speaker 7 (24:58):
They say, oh, look at this, we discover this evidence
of this of this trial happened in nation of Egypt.
The only the only text that has that criticism applied
to it are that he is the Hebrew Bible and
the Christian Bible. Interestingly, that there's a lack of interest
in delving into the Qur'an in this in a similar manner.

Speaker 3 (25:19):
I know, is that interesting?

Speaker 2 (25:20):
I mean, well, maybe not as interesting as it might appear,
because I think I know the answer to that one,
and I think you.

Speaker 3 (25:25):
Forward, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (25:27):
But the fact is, you know, I find it kind
of humorous when you know his you know, these these
people that make these arguments will will I've seen atheist
site Josephus as evidence against a particular thing. It's like, well,
why is Josephus all of a sudden, like them the authority?
Now you know what I mean, what what is it

(25:49):
about him?

Speaker 6 (25:50):
Because he's not a Christian?

Speaker 3 (25:55):
Yeah, any anybody else has got authority?

Speaker 2 (25:58):
Yeah right, yeah, But you know, I mean, the fact
of the matter is, uh, you know, scripture has stood
the test of time. It's proven itself, you know, through
two thousand years of of of of of durability. It's
the most published book in the world. Nothing's even come

(26:19):
close to it. You know, there's more copies of it
than anything else that there's got to be something to that.
You know, you can't just dismiss that as fairy tale.
You know, it's It's had a profound effect on Western
civilization and also every other civilization in the world, perhaps
predominantly Western civilization, but every part of this world has

(26:42):
been touched and affected by it, right down from our
system of law to what we understand to be a
code of ethics. You know, this is all scriptural, it's
all biblical.

Speaker 7 (26:57):
So there's there's and it extends even to the it's
to the freedom that democracies extent. Yeah, that's allowing people
say I don't believe it. I think it's a little
of rubbish. But you know, in other words, they.

Speaker 6 (27:09):
Couldn't be atheism without Christianity.

Speaker 3 (27:11):
That's true.

Speaker 6 (27:11):
But that's the paradox.

Speaker 3 (27:13):
It is true. You know, you're right.

Speaker 2 (27:14):
I mean, that's exactly right, because we have the the
the the understanding of freedom at the level that the
Gospels give us. It allows for people to actually have
an opposing view like that. You're right, I mean, instead
of it becoming a you know, a restrictive kind of Well, yeah,

(27:39):
totilitarianism is the word I'm looking for, thank you.

Speaker 3 (27:42):
So there you go. That's the answer, Brandon.

Speaker 8 (27:45):
And just is that similar in a way to like,
I guess, was Rome's founding with like Romulus and Remus,
that the same kind of.

Speaker 2 (27:56):
Well, that's a legend to try to explain, you know,
that's a little bit different because I don't I don't
even the Romans would not have considered necessarily Romulus and
Remus to be historical figures, I mean, divine figures perhaps
that might have had played a role in history. But
that's very different I think than how than than how

(28:20):
Scripture places Abraham and Moses into into the toimeline.

Speaker 3 (28:27):
You know, it's similar.

Speaker 2 (28:29):
I'm not going to say it's not, but I would
say that Romulus and Remus were created. These were stories
created in much more of the way that Hindus create
divine stories about the gods to kind of express some
type of truth in a way that people can understand them.

Speaker 3 (28:48):
They don't take this as like literal history.

Speaker 2 (28:51):
They're writing a a a an allegory to try to
explain something that's at a deeper, more profound level. I
believe we could say that about Romulus and Remus and
how the Romans would have looked at that. But when
the Jewish people refer to Abraham and Moses, this was
done in a far more historical way. They saw a

(29:12):
lineage there. They understood them to be actual people. And
while yes, there's going to be embellishments through time, legends
grow around legendary people. I mean, that's what makes them legendary.
It's not to diminish any historical value there. The same
thing with Jesus. I mean, that's it's a tall order

(29:34):
today to convince someone that, you know, you could have
God incarnate a human being and die and rise from
the dead and then you know.

Speaker 3 (29:43):
Give you the grace to do the same.

Speaker 2 (29:46):
That's a very difficult thing for people today to accept,
you know. And they might look at that and say, well,
that's that's just that's legend in the same way that
Romulus and Remus are were Roman legends. But I w
I would I would caution to say that, but it

(30:06):
wasn't written that way. Okay, The Gospels were not written
as legends first that people started to believe. They were
written as actual, first hand accounts. They make that very clear,
particularly Luke. Luke is very explicit about this, and and

(30:27):
Paul is too through his letters. Somebody saw something, a
lot of people saw something, and they wrote.

Speaker 5 (30:33):
It down, and a lot of people died for it.

Speaker 3 (30:35):
Yes, and a lot of people died true.

Speaker 2 (30:38):
And that, you know, you just brought up, Jamie, an
extremely important part of it, because I think that that
is the best argument one could make for if you
could say, well, why should we believe in in in
the Gospels? Well, it doesn't make sense that if you
know you're lying, if you know, if you know you've
been lying all this time, that you're probably not going

(30:58):
to die for that line. Most people are not going
to die for their lives. But you might die for
a truth, you know, if you're a man of integrity,
which I believe the Apostles and Disciples were, then yes,
I do believe you would die for the truth.

Speaker 3 (31:14):
Yeah, so I think that that. You know.

Speaker 2 (31:16):
So it's a little bit different, it's similar in some ways,
but you got to understand that Roman legends and even
these Chinese legends that we talked about, Hindu stories of
the divine we are composed with a different motivation than
what was happening in the Jewish world at the time

(31:39):
that both the Old Testament was being utilized and the
New Testament was being written. There was a very different
motivation behind those texts. They were not taking writing stuff
down and say well, let's create the next big myth.

Speaker 3 (31:55):
That was not really how they did things.

Speaker 2 (31:58):
Jewish people even today, they're very practical, very down to
earth kind of people.

Speaker 3 (32:04):
All right, they get there.

Speaker 2 (32:06):
They're people that work, you know, and and they're very
successful what they put their mind to.

Speaker 3 (32:13):
You know.

Speaker 2 (32:14):
It almost becomes a stereotype for them because they're so
successful at things like business and everything. Because of that
practicality and they're smart. They're not the kind of people
to make shit up just because their culture demands it.

Speaker 3 (32:28):
That's just not the way they operate. Now.

Speaker 2 (32:32):
There are, of course, as we've talked about, there's a
dimension of the ineffable in the Old Testament and the
New Testament too, but more so in the Old Testament.
For the purposes of this conversation that you know, they
understand that there's just certain things that you can't talk
about when it refers to God. There's just certain things
the human brain can't understand. So the next best thing

(32:53):
is to tell a story that explains it a little
enough for or the human mind to comprehend it. But
it's not being written with the intention for it to
be like, oh, yeah, this is a historical thing that
happened on such a such a date, which is why
they don't remember that. You know, the dates are not
necessarily always important. They are with certain things like chronicles

(33:15):
and stuff like that. But you know, when it comes
to people like the true legendary figures of Judaism, like
Abraham and Moses, it's less so important about the times
that this thing's happened, that this happened, and more so
about what these things mean. And what it means is
that God chose this people too directly commune with in

(33:41):
a profound way that was never before seen before, you know,
never before seen. Okay, and that's what it's trying to say.
Somebody fulfilled that role. Maybe the guy name wasn't Moses.
Maybe that's just the name that's given to the person
that had these experiences and you know maybe you know,
climbing up you know Mount Sinai and tablets of stone

(34:03):
and all this were the embellishments to tell this greater story.
But once things for certain, somebody had a divine experience,
God spoke to them, gave them a code of ethics
that brought us into the the realm of modernity, civility.
These are things that did not exist prior to this.
Something profound truth.

Speaker 7 (34:25):
The truth is tested by experience. So I mean this
is this is I mean, you know, the burning bush.
I mean that that image of what cannot be consumed
by fire, you know, I mean what a great image
of of part.

Speaker 6 (34:44):
Of the explanation of the nature of God. And so
and this is why I mean that.

Speaker 7 (34:50):
You know Jordan Piterson' Stonies Exodus series, and he you know, yes,
he's got biblical scholars, Jewish and Christian, and archaeologists and
psychologists and artists discussing these things. The fact that these
images accounts we like, we all have mountaintop experiences.

Speaker 6 (35:09):
We know what that means.

Speaker 7 (35:10):
Yeah, we all know what it means to be consumed.
We know what it means to be sent, We know
what it means to sacrifice they're so deep, they're like
super truths.

Speaker 6 (35:23):
And the fact that.

Speaker 7 (35:24):
These are contained in these stories that have survived for
thousands of years and been handled and they're still alive
today because we speak them and meditate on them. I
don't know what if if people can't see that they're true,
I don't know what can convince you that they're true.

Speaker 3 (35:43):
Well, and that's myself evidently true.

Speaker 2 (35:46):
I think, I think it really and that's what I've
said before. It's that there's a there's a level of
truth that these things transcend themselves too, and if you
are willing to go on that journey, it takes you
with it to that same point of transcending. That if
if at some point it were to ever be definitively
just you know, determined, without any shadow of a doubt,

(36:09):
that Jesus was merely just a fictitious story, it wouldn't
change my faith any at all. It wouldn't matter to me.

Speaker 3 (36:17):
I know.

Speaker 2 (36:18):
There are people that are absolutely dependent upon the historicity
of the events in the Gospel to the point.

Speaker 7 (36:25):
That materialism, they are a materialistic will be exactly, you know,
And that's what and actually it is incompassible with certainly
with the Christian faith. I think I suspect with all faith.

Speaker 2 (36:37):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean at some point if you're
going to if you're going to enter into the spiritual life,
that has to go at some point. Now, it can
be quite a process because I think in a lot
of ways that's people's greatest attachment. It's not so much
and we talk about like the like the signs and
symptoms of the disease, like you know that obsess over

(37:02):
money or power or whatever, you know, your particular poison
might be. But those are just symptoms. The real disease
is an attachment to materialism, to the material world, to
wanting to needing to be validated in your reality.

Speaker 3 (37:20):
You need to know, people need to realize how realism
that is. Yeah, I know that materialism is.

Speaker 7 (37:25):
Actually there's nothing ancient about that, you know. I mean,
it's a nineteenth twentieth century phenomenology, you know, but it's
it sort of pretends to be something which is well,
it's seductive. Ironically, when people had far less in other words,

(37:48):
they had more need of material things like food and
clean water and.

Speaker 6 (37:51):
All the rest of it, they were far less material.

Speaker 7 (37:53):
Yeah, so it's a really recent way of thinking, and
I think people you know, my advice to people who
have grown up well we've all grown up in it,
who are caught up.

Speaker 6 (38:05):
In it, is to is to question, actually, what's the
point of materialism and existentialism? You know, it can only
lead to nihilism and there's no deep meaning in it.

Speaker 7 (38:19):
It's meaningless, and that's why people. You know, look where
people are committing suicide. It's in the wealthiest countries in
the world, where they don't starve, where the government will
you know, there is a there is a bottom line
safety net for everybody that they are. You know, suicide
rates in Scandinavia are startlingly high.

Speaker 3 (38:38):
And that's like supposed to be the happiest place in
the world.

Speaker 7 (38:41):
Supposed to be that all this you know, social utopia.
You know, well, that's why you know, you need you
need a degree of struggle in your life. That's why
I mean, if we mentioned Jacob earlier, Jacob gets called
Israel one who wrestles with God. You know, he's wounded
forever from that encounter. But that encounter is is vivifying,
gives him life, and materialism says, you know, satiate yourself

(39:06):
with everything you can gather in right, and it doesn't
you know, it destroys the soul.

Speaker 6 (39:12):
We get fat and suicidal.

Speaker 7 (39:15):
We do.

Speaker 2 (39:16):
There you go, Brandon, don't get don't get fat suicidal.
That's the moral of that question. Oh, it's our next one.

Speaker 8 (39:28):
So the next one, how do you differentiate between demon
possession and mental health crisis. I've been reading up on
signs of the stages of demonic possession, and the first
three for sure look a lot like mental break except
for the aversion to religious artifacts.

Speaker 2 (39:45):
And this is probably the most asked question of me
when it comes to things when people are always wanting
to interview me about my work. Or I actually received
I didn't hear back from her, but I received an
email from a student this past week who was writing
some paper on the dangers of of I guess she's claiming,

(40:08):
if I remember correctly, that these therapists or that it's
becoming more and more common for therapists to diagnose possession
and transfer, you know, refer them over to the church.

Speaker 3 (40:19):
I mean, I don't think right now, because I mean
I do not find that to be sures.

Speaker 5 (40:27):
Yeah, you know, if they don't want to provide it.

Speaker 2 (40:29):
Then yeah, I mean I'd like to talk. I'd like
to talk to her. She hasn't responded back to my email.
I mean, I said, sure, I'd be more than happy
to give you an interview, but I'd like to know
where she's getting that basis from. But anyway sounds sounds
a bit biased to me, to be honest, But I'd
like to see what facts she's drawing from.

Speaker 3 (40:45):
Anyway.

Speaker 2 (40:45):
The answer to it is is much more pragmatic than
I think people give credit for, because I think, you know,
from ghost Adventures and everything else.

Speaker 3 (40:53):
I used to joke about it. I still do.

Speaker 2 (40:55):
People think that Jamie and I just go door to door,
knock on people's doors, bargaining with holy water and across
and you know, start exercising the hell out of everything.
That is just not the reality of this job in
the most the most basic terms. Okay, all claims that
we receive, every case we receive is treated as mental

(41:19):
illness first, all right, until the conventional therapeutics fail. That's
when we start to say, okay, so they've done everything
the right way. They've gone through the process, the medical process,
and what's available to us in that regard is, of
course psychotropic medication. Conventional therapy, you know. And I'm a

(41:43):
big critic of those things. I am because I was
on that side first before coming into the religious side,
of of of of treating people's psychological and emotional health, because.

Speaker 3 (41:55):
It's really what pastors do.

Speaker 2 (41:57):
I mean, well, you can call it, you know, religious
in spirituality, but in the end, it really is you're
you're just another time.

Speaker 7 (42:05):
And those tablets are far more speculative than pastoral ministry.

Speaker 3 (42:09):
It was you're right, you know, you know, you're right.

Speaker 2 (42:11):
And I could not, in good conscience continue in psychology,
which is why I went the path of religion, because
I found more value here than there in terms.

Speaker 3 (42:23):
Of getting people well.

Speaker 2 (42:25):
I saw better success rates, far better success rates in
the pastoral arena, which is why I switched. But that
doesn't mean that we don't still follow a process. So
you know, when when the big marker for us is okay,
you claim you demonically possessed, oppressed, you know, obsessed, whatever,

(42:48):
then what let me look at your your your your
psychological profile. Oh you know you've never been for one.
Oh what you don't even have a counselor Okay, well
guess what you get? Do that first, and then after
so many months of this. We'll revisit this now. That
doesn't mean I won't I won't work with them pastorally,

(43:10):
but overall, before there's even going to be a minor exorcism,
let alone a solemn exorcism, we're going to need absolute
validation by a professional therapist, somebody that's qualified to diagnose,
you know, is practicing you know, therapy, and the licenses

(43:31):
that that that that support that that, yeah, we've tried
these things and they're not working.

Speaker 3 (43:39):
Then at that.

Speaker 2 (43:40):
Point we tried the pastoral tools and this still does
not imply that we're going to jump right into exorcism.
I can't tell you right now, it's the worst it's
ever been. It never used to be this bad. Now
it's this bad. It's worse than this bad. It's so
bad that every case it seems we get now is
that you know, we when when our intake form asked
to describe the problem, they'll just say, I'm possessed.

Speaker 3 (44:03):
Exercise exclamation.

Speaker 5 (44:05):
I'm dealing with most of these folks, and yeah, one
thing I interject to it, it's all in the interview.
One thing some people need to remember to ask me,
probably coming from law enforcement, what your drug use, like,
have you ever used drugs? Have you ever used hallucinogens?
And we have We have a client now who believes,

(44:25):
I'll keep it generic, who believes that there after life
is in danger because they saw a demon while they
were tripping on shrooms. Well, honey, you were tripping on shroops,
So that's gonna be something. You know, you need to

(44:46):
be clean for what was six months before we can
that would be I would get the stuff out of
your body before we can even address what might be
going on with you.

Speaker 6 (44:56):
Saying I'm a better driver when I'm drunk. Comfas.

Speaker 5 (44:58):
Yeah, it's just you know, practical, practical stuff. You got
to ask. It's like, if you're using, you know, hard
drugs and you feel that you're having you're in spiritual crisis.
Could it be the hard drugs or could you be
compensating for a mental illness or depression or anxiety.

Speaker 2 (45:15):
Sometimes they just want to excuse yeah, and so it
becomes easier to say rather than say I'm mentally ill,
than to say that, you know, I'm being attacked by
a demon.

Speaker 5 (45:25):
It's been hard for us to help you if you're
on the influence of drugs all the time we had.

Speaker 6 (45:31):
One of these one of these ses. One of the
issues is it can be both at the same.

Speaker 3 (45:35):
Time, you know, Yeah, we've talked about that.

Speaker 6 (45:39):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (45:40):
I mean, if you are possessed, you're gonna have mental
health consequence.

Speaker 5 (45:45):
It's not you, it's gonna be complaining. It's gonna be
your family or your loved one.

Speaker 2 (45:48):
But I mean, these things don't happen in a vacuum.
They're not in isolations from each other. So my my
argument to anybody that asks this question is considering from
a at least from a Christian vantage okay, because usually
this question comes to us from a Christian vantage point,
not always, but you know, we're going to take it
from that perspective for a moment, and that is illness

(46:11):
is the result of the fallen world. So is there
really a difference anyway? I mean, in the end, does
it really matter if you want to call something a
demonic possession or a mental illness. In the end, it
is still the direct result of the fallen world. So
the only part that matters here is what is the
best solution to heal the patient? Okay, And so that's

(46:34):
usually going to be the path of least resistance. Sometimes
all it takes is a little bit of therapy, a
little bit of emotional support, and the person starts to
build their life back again. Which is why pastoral the
pastoral site is so much better because unlike a conventional therapist,
a pastor is going to be there for you all
the time and is going to be coming from a

(46:57):
more long term and more of a familial type of
support system. It's more like having a grandfather and you know,
than it is like having a doctor. Okay, so family,
because that's what the church, the rest of the church,
that's what the church is, I mean idealistically. Of course
we know that that's not always the way it manifests
in all parishes, but that's the way, that's the ideal,

(47:18):
that's what we should be striving for. So you know,
in this sense that you know, so after we get through,
you know, a person comes to us, they've done everything
right with the with the psycho psychotherapy or the you know,
they've they've seen their doctor. Nothing can be found that's
wrong on any kind of medical level. Then we start

(47:40):
exploring what could be spiritually wrong, and that still does
not imply exorcism. What it will usually mean is sacraments.
When's the last time you've been to confession, when's the
last time you received the Eucharist?

Speaker 3 (47:51):
You know, usually the answer to these questions is never,
So that's part of the problem. You know, Yeah, what
is that right? It was the last time you're in church?

Speaker 5 (48:02):
You're coming for a Christian solution, solution, but you you
haven't been to the been to mass, or no desire
to no desire to start.

Speaker 2 (48:15):
Again, no desire to start again. You just want someone
to come and do a quick fix, put the band
aid on, so you can go back to your miserable life,
continuing with the things that caused this in the first place.

Speaker 6 (48:24):
And that's no commitment beyond the encounter.

Speaker 7 (48:28):
And this is this One of the other distinctions is
that with with mental health problems, they tend to slowly improve.

Speaker 6 (48:36):
Over a period of time. It takes time. With if if.

Speaker 7 (48:40):
Someone truly is possessed and they're going through the exorcism
pro progress, they actually get worse, get worse and worse
and worse over a period of time, then better. So
it's so it's very easy for priests to see the
difference in terms of how how they.

Speaker 6 (48:57):
Respond to.

Speaker 7 (49:00):
To prayer and to well, whether they'll respond by embracing
the sacraments in the first place, but also how it
plays out. So you know, for those who were seeking
and look, people who were in psychological termoil, spiritual turmoil.

Speaker 6 (49:14):
My heart breaks. That's what we're here for. That's why
we do what we do. So we are all ears
for you.

Speaker 7 (49:19):
But if if you're looking to shortcut a way to health,
I've got bad news for you.

Speaker 6 (49:28):
The exist is not the shortcut.

Speaker 3 (49:30):
No, it's not.

Speaker 2 (49:31):
And so we're going to go through the sacraments and
you know your unction. And it's only once you know,
we start to see through that process something more of
what we would classify as demonic reveal itself. And then
and only then would we start to jump to the

(49:52):
more extreme types of things.

Speaker 3 (49:53):
And remember, let's not forget what exorcism is. Okay.

Speaker 2 (49:55):
People think it's like some kind of like really dark
and dirty secret.

Speaker 3 (49:59):
It's a blessing. In the end, It's a blessing. That's it.
It's it. It's a blessing, Okay.

Speaker 2 (50:07):
I mean you're basically giving grace so that the person
can get their life back, and that's all it really is.

Speaker 3 (50:15):
And if anybody God's will that that be ended.

Speaker 7 (50:18):
Yeah, I mean we said it before padre Po was possessed. Yeah,
he's a saint.

Speaker 3 (50:24):
Yeah, yeah, of cour Yeah.

Speaker 2 (50:26):
A lot of the Desert Fathers had their brushes with
mostly oppression, but still demonic I mean demonic encounters. So
you know, it's part of the spiritual process to deal
with it. I mean, I've dealt with my own oppressions
to this work, and uh, you know, I have to
deal with it the same way anybody else would. Just

(50:48):
because I'm an extorsist doesn't exempt me from it. Okay,
So granted I do have the grace of Holy orders.

Speaker 3 (50:53):
That does help.

Speaker 2 (50:53):
I'm not going to deny that it doesn't. However, most
of the time though, that's pretty much reserve for everybody else.
You know, from my own spirituality, I have to work
it out. I have to work out my salvation the
same way anyone else does.

Speaker 3 (51:07):
You know. I think people tend to forget that they
think they do.

Speaker 5 (51:10):
You know, even the strongest among us still deal with
the same temptations and oppressions and everybody else does. Maybe
we just have a better way of dealing with because
we've been properly trained. And how to get trained, you
go to church, you take the sacraments, you you you know,
use discernment, you read, read the world, Jamie.

Speaker 6 (51:30):
That's where I think police work is a crossover with it.

Speaker 5 (51:33):
Absolutely.

Speaker 7 (51:34):
People think that, you know, church people, especially priests and
religious and.

Speaker 5 (51:42):
If we're human too.

Speaker 7 (51:43):
Yeah, yeah, they just go home and get pugged into
a USB port, right, you know, like.

Speaker 6 (51:51):
Hard work.

Speaker 7 (51:52):
Yeah, you have to do a lot of hard work
to get where you are. And so you know, that's
actually what draws people.

Speaker 2 (51:59):
To is in the first by the way, I think, so,
you know, so it ultimately it's pastoral work. But people
are like, I can't believe you go on ghost adventures.
You just come on in and and and and and without,
you know, without without speaking to their doctors or you know.
It's like you don't even know the processes that go
on here. And but the fact of the matter is
I'm a pastor making a house call to somebody that's

(52:20):
asking for the help of the church, somebody that they
want to come and pray for them or with them.
You know, I don't I'm sorry, I just don't see
what's so dangerous about that.

Speaker 6 (52:31):
I don't get it.

Speaker 3 (52:32):
I don't say much.

Speaker 2 (52:32):
You're just so worried about what you're worried about, that
they might find faith, they might find God in this process,
maybe live a healthy life.

Speaker 6 (52:39):
Day you respond to somebody who won't he needs help,
I mean, give.

Speaker 2 (52:43):
Me a break, but I mean we get back to
the answer the question, though, the question is that's that's
how you tell the difference. There is no difference. You
you you go with the process, okay, and then you
do what works. And what works is that you start
with the path of least resistance. You do the the
most practical thing, and then you work your way up
to the more complicated solutions if the ones below it fail.

(53:09):
And that's that's It's as simple as that. But it's
a process. It's there's no magic to it. You're just
simply working with what you with, what you've got to
work with. And that's what any good pastor would do.
All right, what's our next question? We got five minutes.
I think we can do it.

Speaker 8 (53:25):
Yeah, we find a question is actually we can do
the one in chat that's concern.

Speaker 3 (53:33):
Try to get through both of them. Let's see what
we can do.

Speaker 6 (53:34):
Okay.

Speaker 8 (53:35):
So the one from the chat was my son recently
started meditating. I've heard that meditating can open up the
mind so much that it can possibly be an opening
for the demonic.

Speaker 3 (53:47):
I mean anything, anything can be either or right.

Speaker 2 (53:53):
I mean, you know, I I love a good uh martini,
I enjoy way a good cocktail. But I mean I
also know that there are people that absolutely destroy their
lives with alcohol.

Speaker 3 (54:08):
Okay, Uh.

Speaker 2 (54:11):
For me, it's it's a wonderful way to to to
to celebrate something with friends and to sit and have
a nice, quiet, philosophical conversation. It's engaging, it can it
can help your mind to to sort of relax so
that you can think more clearly. And then there are
people that it clouds their judgment to the degree that

(54:32):
they lose all reason, right, maturity factor it is and
meditation is is as neutral as any of those things.
I mean, like food can be also a vice or
a or a or a wonderful you know way to
bond with your family. You know, you can turn it
into eating disorder, or you can you can you can

(54:54):
make it out to be a way that everyone sits
down together at least for a couple hours in talks
without cell phones in their face.

Speaker 3 (55:01):
You know.

Speaker 2 (55:01):
I mean, you can use anything for divine or demonic purposes.
It's really up to you what your what you what
you plan to do or what.

Speaker 3 (55:10):
Yes, maturity is the big thing you're trying to get
out of it? What are you trying to get up?

Speaker 2 (55:13):
So there's a little bit of intent there, but at
the same time, even more important than intent is what
is your constitution. Like, I mean, if you're a kind
of person that is seeking some kind of you know,
fanciful solution to a problem, well, then meditation might be
a way to further your delusions. If you're looking as

(55:34):
a way to you know, manage anxiety, to to get
a clearer focus so that you can you know, be
more productive in your job, that's going to lead to
good things. If you're talking about spirituality only, well, I mean,
if you're meditating on the life of Christ, if you're
meditating on the Cross, there's going to be great, profound
wisdom that comes to you. If you're if you're you know,

(55:56):
using meditation as a way of of seeking some kind
of you know, power for yourself, well, I mean that
could be problematic. So there's no answer to this, you
know that It really it comes down to, you know,
how serious of a person you are about what it

(56:17):
is that you're doing. Now, I would say you never
do anything half asked. If you're going to go into
it half asked and don't do it all right, I'm
just way too much half ass half assery out there
right now. Well, far too much like the guy that
come by half half assery. Yes, we're gonna have a
whole lexicon by the time we're down with this show.
But uh yeah, I mean like the guy that that

(56:37):
damaged my line. That's that's a half assed job. You
shouldn't be doing that, all right, you know, find another job,
because if that's your best work, then this is not good.

Speaker 3 (56:46):
Okay. Same thing goes with meditation. If you're if you're
if you're.

Speaker 2 (56:50):
Willing to go into it seriously, understanding its power, knowing
how you're going to utilize it, and doing it skillfully,
not half asked, then yeah, I mean there's great benefit
that comes from it.

Speaker 7 (57:06):
You know.

Speaker 2 (57:06):
I'm I'm a living example of that because meditation was
a central part of my early formative years. When I
was in college, I literally spent six to well a
minimum of six.

Speaker 3 (57:21):
Hours a day in meditation.

Speaker 2 (57:24):
That's why I went to the monastery honestly, because I
wanted more time to do it, and I was hoping
that I could, I could make monastic life work for
me so that I could spend most of my time
meditating on divine realities and things of that nature. But
that was how serious I was. I wasn't looking to
just you know, relax or to take it, you know,

(57:44):
to be trivial with it. I was looking at it
as a tool for advancement, you know.

Speaker 9 (57:50):
So.

Speaker 2 (57:51):
But I mean, if you're talking about it as far
as risk, well everything is a risk, right. I mean,
you can get into a car. It could take you
to the doctor if you're sick. It could can take
you to a wonderful meal with a friend, it could
take you on vacation. Or you can get into a
car and it can kill you. All right, I mean,
what should we not get into a car just because
the risk of being killed in a car accident is there.

(58:13):
Should you never get on a plane because occasionally one crashes? No,
that's stupid, Okay. Meditation is the same thing. Yes, there's
inherent risk in every single thing you choose to do. However, however,
that's not risk. Is not a reason not to do something.
Risk is only a means to keep you mindful.

Speaker 3 (58:35):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (58:35):
Risk is a way of doing things in a sense
that allows you to capitalize on your highest wisdom, and
meditation is definitely a means.

Speaker 6 (58:46):
Of doing that.

Speaker 2 (58:47):
All right, We're going to take our break here and
when we come back, we are going to be talking
about astrology with brand new guest, Jasmine Boodle, Don't.

Speaker 3 (58:57):
Go away.

Speaker 10 (59:36):
Fo a fact fast as also as a Fa.

Speaker 1 (01:00:00):
S s s.

Speaker 10 (01:00:25):
Green grew basal fas and so sasassa Susana sua the

(01:01:08):
South saaaaaaaaa.

Speaker 1 (01:01:19):
South su su su.

Speaker 10 (01:01:25):
Su Sasa South as fast sus Souso s sUAS South
Southey Sa Sa Sa Sa Sa sass.

Speaker 1 (01:02:44):
Such post schools, such.

Speaker 11 (01:02:46):
Spots, SATs systems, instant lasts.

Speaker 1 (01:03:43):
New thinking, thinking, new thinking and musing thing using.

Speaker 9 (01:04:27):
Circumstancis, circumstances, circumstances and circumstances, stance a specesssistance stance.

Speaker 1 (01:04:57):
St.

Speaker 10 (01:05:00):
As, the stars, the stars, the staff, stuffs stan s.

Speaker 12 (01:05:11):
S s.

Speaker 1 (01:05:16):
S S S s s H.

Speaker 10 (01:06:28):
Not a weekday, your bad, You're not away.

Speaker 13 (01:06:39):
You.

Speaker 10 (01:06:44):
Don't aween, you're not a freen.

Speaker 14 (01:06:47):
You can't agree, you're not a free.

Speaker 2 (01:07:31):
Welcome back, everybody, to vestiges after dark. We're having trouble
actually connecting with the guest tonight, so Brandon is going
to continue to try to reach out to her to
get us connected. In the meantime, we will continue the
show as though it's open lines, open topics. You can
ask us any questions, even call into the show. We

(01:07:52):
actually have a new phone number. Skype is being discontinued,
so we just went ahead and got rid of it,
and so it's the new numbers two seven five four
four nineteen eighty three. That's two O seven five four
four nineteen eighty three. I don't have an international thing.
I think you can try still calling eye of this
here on whatever Skype became. I guess it's called teams.

(01:08:18):
We can see if that works if you're international. But
that's the number to call if you want to ask
a question on the show. Okay, welcome back everybody. We're

(01:09:44):
not having any luck getting in touch with our guests tonight,
so we're going to proceed with tonight's show as though
it is open lines, open topics. We missed one anyway
because of the cancelation during the well the internet fiasco
of this season.

Speaker 3 (01:10:00):
It's not going to be too much of an issue. Brandon.

Speaker 2 (01:10:04):
Uh, make sure you keep in touch with Brandon. Let
let me know when he's needing to be unmiked. Right now,
he's he's muted and he can't unmute himself. So I'll
bring him back on when you tell me he's ready.

Speaker 3 (01:10:17):
Just just tap me or something.

Speaker 2 (01:10:20):
In the meantime, I know we had another question from
the ether that we can get to when he's back.
But are there any questions that any of you have
out there in the audience for us this evening. I
know we didn't prepare this show to be open lines,
open topics, but you always have great questions for us,

(01:10:40):
and we just as evidence by the last question, it's
great to discuss meditation. I think that unfortunately, Protestant Prostenism,
or I should say it's not so much Protestantism as
much as it's Evangelical Christianity has given this mentality of fear,
or produce of mentality, a fear about meditation, because of

(01:11:02):
course it comes from, at least in their minds, it
comes from something that's only done in the East, and
they live by a type of Christianity that teaches if
it's not of God, it's of the devil, which is
absolutely not true.

Speaker 7 (01:11:19):
Well it also ignores like a massive swaye of Christianity,
because I mean I alluded to so in the chat
for Tea and Trisha's benefit, I've put a couple of
links to Metropolitan Kalistos, where the late one of the
one of the bishops for England for the Greek Orthodox Church,
but English, an Englishman scholar and was a friend of mine,

(01:11:40):
and his passing was a great loss to the church.
But you know, we can't live forever. But he used
to give great talks on on the Jesus prayer and
really from the position of hesichasm so hesekia, which is this?
I mean you mentioned the church fathers a sorry, the
desert fathers earlier. They were heavily engaged in this. This

(01:12:03):
is this divine quietness. So this isn't just because the
difference between there's a difference between meditation and inactivity, right uh.
And and Hezekiah is about is the is the idea
that we have an active silence, that that active silence is.

Speaker 6 (01:12:24):
Filled with.

Speaker 7 (01:12:27):
Deepening our love of God, our awareness of God, and
our purpose in the world and in the world to come.

Speaker 3 (01:12:39):
So it's a.

Speaker 6 (01:12:41):
Deeply Christian ancient tradition.

Speaker 3 (01:12:44):
To be in this.

Speaker 7 (01:12:47):
You could you could use the word meditative, meditative state
contemplating the divine beauty of God.

Speaker 6 (01:12:54):
The highest form of worship is adoration.

Speaker 3 (01:12:56):
Well, it actually is neglected in the West, it has been.

Speaker 2 (01:13:01):
It's it's the foundation. Heseechasm is the foundation to theosis.
I mean, it's it's how theosis is ultimately achieved. Honestly,
it's it's the at least the starting point from our point.
You know, the part that we play in this is
largely hesechasms start uh to get started into that.

Speaker 3 (01:13:21):
Of course, the divine takes over from there.

Speaker 2 (01:13:22):
It's a lot like contemplazio in the West, where you know,
once you initiate the meditation, then God, through you know,
the Holy Spirit, will lead you into into contemplazio if
you're lucky. You know, it doesn't always happen, but it
it is something that God decides when and if it does.
But meditations that starting point for it. So there's a

(01:13:43):
lot of different ways even centering prayer, and unfortunately centering
prayers become somewhat a controversial thing that really shouldn't have
been ever controversial. Father Basil Pennington, Uh was the one
that he actually was at some Christian monasteries in I

(01:14:06):
believe it was China. He invited me to I knew,
I knew him, and Thomas Keating was his companion. I
guess you could say in this work both Cistercians. And
he invited me when he was still alive.

Speaker 11 (01:14:22):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (01:14:22):
I was just a seminarian back then, uh to visit
him in China, and and and and you know, visit
the monastery out there.

Speaker 1 (01:14:32):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (01:14:33):
And and they were they were integrating.

Speaker 2 (01:14:36):
Eastern mostly Buddhist meditation techniques, but from a completely different,
completely Christian standpoint. They were just using the techniques, but
they were applying a Christian focus to it. So instead
of you know, extinguishing or or trying to arrive at
some kind of nothingness, you know, which is what would

(01:14:58):
be achieved in Buddhism, they were trying to dissolve themselves
using the same techniques, dissolves themselves into into Christ and uh.
And that's what made it, you know what what centering
prayer became a means of it along the you.

Speaker 7 (01:15:13):
Know it, it's the it's the John the Baptist uh
uh position of you know, I must decrease, heems to increase.
That's the that's the purpose of that that approach, right,
is that it's kinotic. So kinosi is self emptying, but
it's not. It's not self emptying to be to be empty, right,

(01:15:33):
to be, to be an empty vessel. It's emptying to
allow yourself to be filled by by the power of
God as well as God's will. Yes, the great image
of that is from Philippians too, where you know Jesus
is emptied to the point of death on a cross.
That's why he's been highly exalted. So it's a really

(01:15:53):
like for him that it was literally a torturous and
murderous process. And that's why we find it difficult, like
you know, to empty ourselves of our ego.

Speaker 6 (01:16:03):
On narcissism, all the things.

Speaker 7 (01:16:05):
All those two things have got terrible, terrible connotations in
our day and age. You actually need a healthy ego
and a healthy narcissism. But the whole point is of
the self emptying is to.

Speaker 6 (01:16:15):
U to question whether whether whether those things are serving
you or you're serving them, to empty them out, to
then allow the power of God to in a sense
correct you in a certain way. You do that daily.
That's why we have daily prayer.

Speaker 7 (01:16:32):
And then of course there are crisis points in life
or you know, or significant moments in our lives where
we need to do that in a really deliberate and
hopefully guided way, which is what spiritual direction really is.
It's saying, you know, to put it bluntly, what amalgamation
of crap have you got in your life that you

(01:16:54):
need to flush out to allow space for something better?

Speaker 2 (01:16:58):
Yeah, I mean that's true, and and and it works,
and it's it's perfectly compatible with the Christian In fact,
it's not just compatible with the Christian life. It's, as
you just said, more or less, it facilitates the Christian life.
It makes it even richer and more more successful. One
can be more successful in one's journey because it's a struggle.

(01:17:21):
I mean, spirituality is a challenge. At least it should be.
It's it's not all just relaxation and fun and games
and you know, feel good nonsense. That's what a lot
of people turn it in.

Speaker 5 (01:17:34):
Not being challenged on the on the daily, then you're
not doing no, you're.

Speaker 3 (01:17:37):
Not doing it right at all. It should hurt, actually,
spiritual hurt.

Speaker 7 (01:17:42):
I mean I've been kind of reflecting on this on
cultural issues recently. I mean, you know in Australi, I
mean I was thinking about this a long time before this.
But on Anzac Day, which is the day they remember
the First World War sacrifice of the Anzac soldiers in Gillipoli,
there was a welcome to country.

Speaker 6 (01:17:59):
Done by by an Aboriginal person, which has become sort
of it's become sort of I don't want to be harsh.

Speaker 7 (01:18:06):
I don't reject it wholeheartedly, but it's become a kind
of performative or necessary, sort of procedural.

Speaker 6 (01:18:13):
Thing that's done. I think it's lost the essence of
what it is.

Speaker 7 (01:18:16):
And people booed during the welcome to country because it
is controversial. You know, we're remembering people who died giving
their lives for Australia. And yet it can be I
don't think this is the intention of the welko country.

Speaker 6 (01:18:27):
It can be conditcted.

Speaker 7 (01:18:29):
You could think that, well, so these people that die
for their country that they need do any need welcoming
to their country, you know, But so that's actually not
the position of welcome to country. But that's what it's
turned into. But there's a deeper problem I don't really
want to talk about the politics of that. The issue
is the culture.

Speaker 13 (01:18:45):
And you know, for.

Speaker 7 (01:18:48):
In Australia we have also multiculturalism is is into detail
and everything apart from white culture, because white people just
seen as a white And my contention is that, well,
actually a white Australian who traces their ancestry directly back
to Britain, you know, maybe seven generations hence, but they're

(01:19:09):
just as British as I am, you know, culturally, they're
they're inheritance of that culture. But because we're swimming in
that culture, we can't see it. But one of the
cultures that I think is crept in to the well
to Western civilization is you know, I was at a
baptism on Sunday at not my church, at a different church,

(01:19:30):
and people just cannot sit still. Just going back to
what we were talking about, they cannot. I'm not talking
about children. That's fine.

Speaker 6 (01:19:39):
Children could do what they want, right, you know, as
long as they're there, I don't care.

Speaker 7 (01:19:43):
But I'm talking about adults, grown ups, every you know,
and at least three different generations. They literally cannot sit
still and listen. It's like it's like cultural adhd everywhere.

Speaker 6 (01:19:56):
Yeah, and I think.

Speaker 3 (01:20:01):
I think I think that's cell phones. Honestly, I think
it's cell phones.

Speaker 7 (01:20:04):
Like absolutely, it's the Internet, it's it's it's a really
crappy education system. Yeah, or you can google literally need
to know anything, by the way, not true, not true.
How can you think if you don't know anything? But anyway,
the but I think that.

Speaker 6 (01:20:25):
What I do know, I don't know. I don't know
all the answers to all the problems in the universe.
But here's the one thing I do know.

Speaker 7 (01:20:30):
If we can't sit still and we fill our lives
with activity and distractions, we cannot develop.

Speaker 6 (01:20:38):
That's one thing I do know.

Speaker 7 (01:20:40):
And so therefore, for me, that's a far bigger problem
than if somebody is meditating and you're not quite sure
what where that's going to lead. But I think, yeah,
I mean the in the in the chapter to Trish,
you know, good mom, You've got a young man that
actually wants to sit in meditations, actually approve himself.

Speaker 6 (01:20:57):
You're a hero.

Speaker 3 (01:21:00):
I mean, it's a rare thing.

Speaker 9 (01:21:01):
It is.

Speaker 2 (01:21:01):
It's a rare thing because most people don't have that
as the motivation in their lives. And you know, he
recognizes Mike, I would recognize in that that he himself
recognizes that he wants to discover more. You know, that
he knows that he knows that there's something beyond what

(01:21:25):
he currently understands and wants to experience.

Speaker 7 (01:21:28):
And actually just to extend it out, this is this
is this is a bit of a phenomenon for everyone's benefit.

Speaker 6 (01:21:34):
But because my son is seventeen.

Speaker 7 (01:21:38):
And without any encouragement or assistance from me, began praying
the Rosary.

Speaker 3 (01:21:47):
There you go.

Speaker 6 (01:21:48):
Now that Now, yeah, those are two anecdotes, Tricia's son
and my son.

Speaker 7 (01:21:53):
But it's part of a wider movement of young men,
and it is males, young males across the world, which
is a new thing because in my generation it was
girls that went to church, and then I followed them
because I fancied them, and I ended up a Christian.

Speaker 6 (01:22:05):
So and so that.

Speaker 7 (01:22:11):
Indeed, and so God uses all things for good. But
the but this generation, it's young men. And and I'm
coming to because because Danielle's asked a question in the
Chat as well, I'm coming to this.

Speaker 6 (01:22:26):
So across the world, young men are being drawn to
the church.

Speaker 7 (01:22:30):
Now, in my generation, it was kind of Baptist churches
and charismatic evangelical churches through females getting you into the
church to a pop concert. Right, that sounds more dismissive
than I wanted to. I'm not, I'm not putting it down, okay,
But the weird, well, the weird. The great thing in
my opinion about this generation of young males that are

(01:22:51):
coming to the church is they're going to the most
traditional Anglican churches. They asked some left believe it or not,
you call them episcopal churches in America, but yours might
be too far gone.

Speaker 6 (01:23:04):
But anyway, the most.

Speaker 7 (01:23:05):
Traditional Anglican church is traditional Catholicism and Orthodoxy.

Speaker 6 (01:23:12):
So we've got young men being drawn to.

Speaker 7 (01:23:17):
For ease of communication, high church worship, you know, bell
smells difficulty, complication, high theology.

Speaker 6 (01:23:27):
All the rest of it. That's a phenomenon.

Speaker 7 (01:23:29):
And I suspect, I suspect trist that your son's on
that same pathway. And it may well be that the
the the Holy Spirit is at work that this period
we've had of hyperactivity and over stimulation from from phones
and from everything else, maybe the response is that young people,

(01:23:52):
especially males, are turning away from that and seeing the
appeal of much more contemplative worship, because that's what traditional
churches do in sense, investments alters even in an aesthetic sense.
I'm not saying that they've got some deep spiritual theological awakening,
but that's a good path to beyond. So Daniel's question was,

(01:24:16):
I was asked recently how to define traditional Catholicism. Everyone
seems to have different answers. What your thoughts, bishop, Well, bishops,
I'm not a bishop. Just for the record, I'm not
a bishop. My spine's intact.

Speaker 2 (01:24:30):
Yeah, and you don't have to worry those those blasted miters.
I would define traditional Catholicism as more of the flavors
of pre Vatican too, is I think what most people
kind of refer to it as when they're when they
say that, I mean, of course that's a bit of

(01:24:52):
a generalization, but overall they're talking about the Latin Mass.
They're talking about back in the days where you know, women,
you know, were veils and people got really dressed up.

Speaker 3 (01:25:02):
They didn't go to church in jeans and T shirts
and sneakers.

Speaker 15 (01:25:06):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (01:25:07):
They you know, it was uh.

Speaker 2 (01:25:09):
But then again, you gotta understand culturally this change too.
I mean, there are people lament about casinos the same way.
They're like, remember those days when people went to Las
Vegas casinos everyone was dressed up, and no one does anymore.
They like like Slovs. It's like, well, yeah, that's the
that's a cultural shift. And in church, you know, followed suit.
But you know a lot of people did not like

(01:25:30):
the changes to the mass, and and rightfully so now
I defend it, and because I mean, we use it.
It's it's it is our liturgy in the Nicolean Catholic Church, predominantly.
Our liturgy is you know, the the liturgy that developed
out of the Second Vatican Council. It's what I grew
up on. It's what I'm the most familiar with. It

(01:25:50):
was what I was trained with in seminary, so and
and and it was profoundly efficacious for me. So I
maintained it on that basis. But that's not to say
that I don't recognize the the the the abuses that happened,
like when this is not a lie I was we
were told this in seminary by a priest who lived it.

(01:26:14):
When when Vatican two happened and they loosened up some
of the rules, there were hippie priests coming straight out
of the sixties that thought that this was a this
was a field day, that now they could do whatever
the hell they wanted. And you know, there are rules
even now, even under under Vatican two, and that didn't

(01:26:36):
change that. There's certain things in the sacraments that require validity.
You have to in terms of the Eucharis, use the
correct substance. So it has to be the host has
to be made of just wheat and water. That's it, okay,

(01:26:56):
And and you have to use wine fermented grape. It
can't be anything else, right, right exactly now, in an
emergency situation, you could make a simple wine with raisins
and water and leaving it in the in the earth
for a couple of days for it to ferment. You could,
and that would could be still considered valid, not preferable.

(01:27:19):
But like in certain emergency situations, things like that have happened.
But these are these are absolute rules for validity. You're
not receiving the Eucharist if you're not doing it this
using these correct substances. But under you know, when Vatican
Too happened, some of these hippie priests they decided to
try doing the Eucharus with Dorido's and Pepsi, and they

(01:27:40):
really did. It's not valid, okay, but they were doing it.
So there when when people talk about traditional Catholicism, they're
they're kind of reacting to all the multiple abuses that
occurred after the fact. Like you know, there's a rule,
if you've ever noticed in old churches, the choir and
the pipe organ are always behind the congregation, always in

(01:28:03):
the back of the church. Right, there's a reason for that.
There's a reason for that, because it's not a performance,
all right, You're not, even though the music is usually
very beautiful in some of these parishes, and particularly if
they have a really good director. Uh, and you know,
you have very talented people. I belong to a church

(01:28:25):
back in my you know, Roman Catholic days that was
very much could have been performance level. But you're not
supposed to be watching them. It's supposed to be eyes
fixed on Christ. So all that happens but behind in
a traditional Mass, that's the way it's done. But in
Vatican too, let's have a little you know, a little
little hodown at the next to the altar. So they

(01:28:46):
all gathered around with their guitars and their drums. The document,
they just took liberties. They took liberties and they assumed things.
But drums are particularly problematic. Drums are not supposed to
be used during there.

Speaker 8 (01:29:03):
You just forgot the two flat screen like fifty sixty
inch TVs that display the lyrics to the music.

Speaker 3 (01:29:09):
Yeah, that shouldn't be happening either. I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:29:13):
I've never seen that abuse in the Catholic Church, but
I wouldn't say it's not out there. You really, I've
not seen that that's crazy, but I know it's out there.
I mean, I I it doesn't surprise me. So traditional
is really getting back to more of those values. Like
there was a time where you could not receive. Even
in the Orthodox Church it's still this way. You could

(01:29:34):
not could not receive the host in your hands. You
had to kneel at the at the communion uh rail
and receive by mouth and uh. You know in the
Orthodox Church it's still done by part of it's because
they use an intinction, so it would not be appropriate
for you to handle bread that's been dipped in wine.

Speaker 6 (01:29:56):
But even old instruments in Theodox Church, that's right.

Speaker 2 (01:30:00):
Only the human voice, it's right, that's right because they
never had Vatican too, so they weren't as corrupted by
and you can see how it maintained itself better.

Speaker 15 (01:30:09):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (01:30:09):
In that way, even the Eastern North, even even the
Eastern Catholic churches have maintained a better form, I would
say than the than than a lot of the churches.

Speaker 3 (01:30:20):
And but it's it's not it's getting better. Pope Benedict
helped a lot.

Speaker 2 (01:30:24):
He kind of got some of the He brought some
of the words back, you know, the original Latin meanings
back into the English translations. I'm a vernacular guy. I
think that the Mass should be in the vernacular. So
I am not a pro Latin Mass person.

Speaker 6 (01:30:40):
I'm either. I'm either.

Speaker 7 (01:30:41):
I mean, the issue for me, though, isn't whether it's
in Latin or the vernacular. I think I'm happy with both.

Speaker 3 (01:30:45):
By the way, Oh it's beautiful.

Speaker 2 (01:30:47):
Don't get me wrong. It's beautiful, and I'm not gonna
say it's invalid to do it one way or the other.
But I do feel that we're not.

Speaker 6 (01:30:56):
Is written in lasted.

Speaker 3 (01:30:58):
You can you can celebrate that, you must in last
annoy every bolly what you absolutely could. You could. But
my feeling on it is you know that we and
this is this is a very orthodox thing, this very
Eastern Church thing. The we're not a a.

Speaker 2 (01:31:17):
As much as I wish we were. We are not
a church of scholars. Okay, there's scholarship within it, but
most people in the Catholic Church do not speak Latin,
there are, you know, and so you're not going to
get the same understanding out of it. And what Vatican

(01:31:39):
too did emphasize, and rightfully so, the full participation of
the laity in it. The problem with the traditional Mass
was that it always felt like the priest was up
there taking care of everything, and all you had to
do is sit there because that's all you were allowed
to do.

Speaker 3 (01:31:52):
That's all you're good for.

Speaker 2 (01:31:54):
And I mean, I know my grandparents, you know, were
had that mentality, is that they were not really participating
in anything. They did not see themselves as offering the Mass.
When I had a conversation with my grandmother before she
died about that. When I was a seminary and I
would go over and visit sometimes and she'd talk about

(01:32:14):
church was very important to her, and you know, I
talked to her about you know, well you're you know,
you're by by being a participant in the mass, you're
offering the mass, because she didn't like the fact that
her church that when she moved to Buchera Town, Florida,
she didn't like the fact that her church was the
altar was in the center and all of the seating

(01:32:35):
was around it, and yeah, at church in the round.
And I said, well, I don't like those terribly much either.
But the thinking behind it is that you're all participating
in you're all offering the Mass together.

Speaker 3 (01:32:48):
It's not just a priest.

Speaker 2 (01:32:49):
She could not wrap her head around that because she
grew up in pre Vatican two times, where that was
not the image. It might have been what you was
ultimately happening, but they did people did not understand that
that's what they were there to do. And that's I
think something that Vatican two did very well is to
bring the laity into their active roles because we all

(01:33:11):
belonged to the priests of all believers and under Vatican
you know, before Vatican Two, there wasn't a whole lot
you could do as a layperson except show.

Speaker 3 (01:33:19):
Up, you know.

Speaker 6 (01:33:22):
I mean, I think I'm kind of a both and
sort of a guy.

Speaker 7 (01:33:26):
I mean, look, you know, because I was in the
Church of England and in the Anglo Catholic wing of that,
we either use the English missile, which is the Old Mass,
but in English. So one of my contentions is they
should have authorized the sixty well, I mean, it wasn't
even the sixty it was pre sixty two. But let's
say the nineteen sixty two missile. They should have authorized

(01:33:46):
that into English as well as the Novsordo, so you
could do either in English or in Latin. Because I'm
not obsessed with Latin, do you get me wrong. It's
not like I think it's the magic incantational words work
in Latin.

Speaker 3 (01:34:01):
But here's what.

Speaker 6 (01:34:04):
I know that I know that, and they're wrong, and
and that's why, you know, you know, they ruin it
for everybody.

Speaker 7 (01:34:10):
You know, Pope Francis clamps down on the on the
Old Mass in Latin because some people are stupid. I
think that was a bad tactic. By the way, you
should deal with the stupid people, not collective punishment.

Speaker 6 (01:34:20):
But leaving that aside, the the.

Speaker 7 (01:34:25):
You know, you can in fact celebrate the novs Ordo
very beautifully that if you it was always the joke,
you know, if you want to see the massive Port
the sixth celebrated beautifully go to the Church of England,
you know, because they weren't restricted in a sense by
you know, they didn't have to eradicate all the old practices.
And also when you've got a church that's a thousand
years old, you can't just pull the altar away from

(01:34:45):
the wall like it's a scheduled ancient monument. You're not
allowed to do that. And so you can celebrate the
new Mass facing the altar. And I think one of
the things to be where there are there's a group
of people whose appeal to the traditional Latin Mass is
actually not an appeal to the traditional Latin Mass.

Speaker 6 (01:35:06):
It's an appeal to.

Speaker 7 (01:35:08):
A certain mentality that was really unhealthy in the life
of the Catholic Church. So I think that has to
be held intention you know, we actually don't want to
wind back the clock to nineteen thirty because the church's
theology is actually deeper now than it was then, I mean,

(01:35:29):
and yet their illusion is that somehow it's shallower now,
so we've got to go back there. And so I
understand what here's my main argument for the Latin Mass.
I don't buy the argument that nobody understood what was
going on in the Mass when Latin was the only
language I mean, I.

Speaker 3 (01:35:45):
Mean translated it for you. You could do the work.

Speaker 7 (01:35:49):
But also it's only because the Church of England under
Henry the eighth, well we still have the Latin Mass.
Under Henry the eighth, the Church really eventually brought in
a vernacular liturgy.

Speaker 6 (01:35:59):
That was quite different actually, but that.

Speaker 7 (01:36:03):
We all of a sudden were worshiping in English before that.
If you've been baptized, grown up, gone to Mass every
Sunday and Holy Day of Obligation all your life, you
do know what's going on in the mass.

Speaker 6 (01:36:17):
I'm sorry you do.

Speaker 7 (01:36:18):
We don't now because we've lost it. But the other
benefit for the Latin Mass, whether it's the Mass of
Paul the sixth or the sixty two Missile, the other
benefit is it like where I live here at my
parish church. Here, there are Filipinos, there are Indians, there
are English, French, Spanish, Italian, Greek speakers all of there.

Speaker 6 (01:36:44):
So we're using the vernacular in our mass. What we
mean by that is using English.

Speaker 7 (01:36:50):
It's not the vernacular language of the Filipinos and the
Greeks and the Italians and the Spaniards. So, you know,
and I think if I remember correctly, in s Angeles
or San Francisco, one of the other the Catholic Church,
they're the bishop. They used to have about seven masses
on a Sunday, one in Polish, one in Spanish, one
in English.

Speaker 3 (01:37:08):
One.

Speaker 7 (01:37:08):
You know, they are all these and he said, we're
not doing this anymore. It's ridiculous. We're gonna have it
in one in English and one in Latin. And that's
where Latin in a sense, could become a unifying language.
You know, the Orthodox Church overwhelmingly do not celebrate in
the vernacular. I know the OCA do in America, but
you know, in the rest of the English speaking world,

(01:37:29):
Greeks are celebrating in keeney Greek, not even modern Greek,
k Ancient Greek. The Serbs, the Russians celebrating in Old
Church Slavonic, which is not Russian or Serbian. So in
other words, all these other churches have managed to gather
around a common language that's unchanging.

Speaker 6 (01:37:48):
So that's my defense of the Latin Mass.

Speaker 7 (01:37:50):
Without saying but you know, without saying vernacularity, they are
important vernacularities.

Speaker 6 (01:37:56):
I'm not opposed to them.

Speaker 2 (01:37:58):
Yeah, I mean I think I think you have to yeah,
oh yeah, yeah, I mean you have to. I think
go with what speaks to you, you know, I mean
there is something to be said for that, and and
certainly these the trinityan mass speaks to some people. I mean,
and I understand why. I mean it is it is
definitely more profound, more deliberate, slower.

Speaker 3 (01:38:19):
Than than than.

Speaker 2 (01:38:21):
Less utilitarian, I guess you could say than than what
we have now. But at the same time, I can
tell you very cumbersome to to try to do that
with like beautiful Yeah, I mean, well, I mean you
guys wouldn't be allowed at the altar for one thing, right,

(01:38:43):
you know.

Speaker 3 (01:38:45):
I mean, so there's there's benefits, but that.

Speaker 7 (01:38:48):
Was actually missed by a lot of I mean, especially
by the ones that love love the sixty team. By
the way, they talk about the nineteen sixty two missile
as though it's ancient, but you know, I mean, there's
been how many reforms for and Trent by the time
the sixty missile was issued anyway, But leaving that aside,
they really don't know as much about listage as they
think they do.

Speaker 3 (01:39:07):
Well when the wisdom you know, ahead, I'm sorry yeah, no, sorry.

Speaker 6 (01:39:12):
But but when Pope Benedict.

Speaker 7 (01:39:15):
Broadened out the ability of any priest to celebrate the
sixty two Missile if they wished to, it did not change,
and it was specifically said that basically what's in the
germ about who can serve at the altar is valid
for that. So even though some chose to interpret it differently,

(01:39:35):
they were wrong. For the first time ever, you can
celebrate the sixty two Latin Mass with women as altar servers.

Speaker 3 (01:39:45):
Yes, I'm missed.

Speaker 2 (01:39:46):
I got missed under Benedict, but you wouldn't have been
able to do that in the in you wouldn't have
been able to do that.

Speaker 3 (01:39:52):
In the fifties.

Speaker 6 (01:39:52):
Yeah, the Orthodox still don't let you.

Speaker 2 (01:39:56):
You know, they're still down. You can't even go in
the behind the kind of stats unless you're none. Nuns
can go behind the acconaissauce if there's a reason to
do so, if if there's a reason to do so,
but lay women cannot, you know, they they sometimes taunt
the priest with it. It was it was very really
kind of funny. They would there, we had one, we

(01:40:18):
had one. Uh, she would help with she would get
like the vestments cleaned and everything else. She would she
would she would go into the door because the the
sanctuary has back doors in most churches, where you know,
the priests can come in through the back instead of
always going through the conistaces. Sore sometimes sometimes yeah, because

(01:40:40):
I mean the old face that you know when they say,
let's complete our praise to the Lord. There's at least
another hour and a half to go. I mean, so
you know, but you know she would she would open
that door. Well he was back there, you know, preparing
for and she'd stick her her foot through the and
not touch ground. She would be like, look, father, I'm
coming in. I'm coming in.

Speaker 3 (01:41:01):
As long as you don want to step on it,
you're okay. It's really kind of funny. Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:41:06):
So we got a question from Lisa Williams a bit
of a change of gear here on the paranormal question. Yeah,
she says, I have a paranormal question, what are your
thoughts on elementals? Well, for our purposes in this particular ministry,
I used my four designation model that pretty much covers

(01:41:30):
all of the possibilities outside of lingering. I guess you
could say it's a fifth possibility, but I mean as
far as like genuine paranormal events are going to fall
into at least disturbing ones are going to fall into
four categories, demonic, elemental thought form, or wrathful spirit.

Speaker 3 (01:41:50):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:41:51):
Elementals are that second category. How I define them, and
I think most people that have done this work long
enough would agree with me, is as a I define
them as a primordial spirit, something that is very ancient,
that has been yes, yes, and and and and been

(01:42:13):
part of creation longer than than than we have. So
you're talking about a very a very again primordial energy
that has varying degrees of sentience, however you wanted to
find that, which could be a whole other question. And

(01:42:34):
there's varying degrees just like they're all I would say,
elementals are all incorporeal. They canfect, they can affect the
corporeal world. They are incorporeal by nature, okay, And there
are varying degrees, just like in the animal kingdom that
we have here in in the in in the physical world,

(01:42:58):
elementals have that same very variation. So you could have
something as sophisticated as a you know, or as intelligent
as a as a whale or a primate or a cat,
you know, these are higher you know, they have prefrontal
cortex that can actually do some you know, basic reasoning.
Or you could have mosquitoes which have no reasoning. Right,

(01:43:19):
you can have insects.

Speaker 9 (01:43:20):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:43:21):
The animal kingdom is vast and wide, and varying degrees
of ability exists there, And the same thing occurs with elementals. Now,
if you're dealing with a high level elemental, something that
is extremely sentient, like a gin exactly, that would be
more akin to a primate or a whale, something more
sophisticated in the animal kingdom, then you have to deal

(01:43:44):
with that very differently than let's say, a lower level elemental,
which might not even have a name. You might call
them gremlins, I do, yeah, yeah, amps these are these
are not necessarily they behave more instinctually instinctively, and it's

(01:44:05):
more like a rodent or a lizard or you know,
to use a comparison, and you deal with those very
differently than the higher form. So the importance of understanding
what an elemental is, or at least which kind of
elemental you're dealing with, is only to help you better

(01:44:25):
tailor a solution to whatever the problem is. The problem
is also just like in the animal kingdom, higher level
ones are more rare, lower level ones are more prolific. Right,
I mean, I can tell you right now mosquitos outnumber primates.
I can't tell you how many to one, but I
know that it's a big number.

Speaker 3 (01:44:45):
Okay. There's far more of them than higher animals. Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:44:51):
And even though we are all fruitful, they're far more
fruitful than we are. They can reproduce much faster. And
so in the same sense, elementals kind of follow a
very similar pattern in this way. So infestations, uh, elemental
infestations can absolutely produce an environment that is so toxic

(01:45:12):
that it is usually in these kinds of cases better
to just find another home than it would be to
try to continue to live there and resolve it, because
you're talking about sometimes infestations can become almost irreconcilable, and
and it's just easier to just leave. And you know,

(01:45:34):
but as far as what they are, you know, you're
talking about a spiritual, incorporeal being that is part of creation.
So they're not outside of creation. They're not better than you.
They're still a creative, a created being, just not corporeal, okay.
And and and and they have been here longer.

Speaker 3 (01:45:58):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:45:59):
So what creates a problem is we as human beings,
tend to destroy natural environments and build things on them,
and that can sometimes intersect with a space that they
have already claimed and have claimed for perhaps thousands of years,
which creates a disturbance, okay. And it's sometimes just an

(01:46:21):
energetic disturbance, like knocking down a tree that has a
beehive that now they all come after you. It's like
that kind of thing. Okay, You're interfering with their home,
and there's an instinctive response to that that has spiritual consequences.

Speaker 5 (01:46:37):
Not like I'm going to react if you show up
on my driver with a bulldozer exactly.

Speaker 3 (01:46:41):
I mean, how would you feel about that? Right? And
that's what you're dealing with. So you know, this is
what we see a lot.

Speaker 2 (01:46:50):
Elemental issues are perhaps I would say the hardest ones
to resolve.

Speaker 5 (01:46:55):
I have dealings with them. None of my property.

Speaker 3 (01:46:57):
They're here.

Speaker 5 (01:46:58):
I'm trying for two and a half years to make
peace with what's on my cat. The people that live
there before me obviously did not take care of it,
and I've been trying to settle things since I moved
in and it has gotten better, but yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:47:12):
Sometimes you can't.

Speaker 2 (01:47:13):
If you're dealing with something that is so low level
that there is no common frame of reference, there's nothing
that you can really do except perhaps try to elevate
the energy which forces them out, but that can be
very difficult to do, and sometimes you can so radically
affect the energy that it actually makes it worse. I

(01:47:36):
think that that, at least on this property, having mass
here has absolutely made things worse because vibration, it's a
too high vibration and this is just too low and
it's very hard to find a vibration that can sort
of make peace ground it is it is, you know,

(01:47:58):
so I had I have to create more bad barriers
than anything else. But I know that there's there's toxic
energy all around and it's all elemental, and there's only
so much even as an exorcist I can do. I mean,
there's things I could do. I haven't spent the time
that it takes to do that because it is very
time consuming. However, you know, it's an interesting part of

(01:48:20):
the dynamic because demons, you know, they follow they follow
the rules. There's a there's a process to working with demons,
and well, that's it. Yes, and almost I would say,
I dare I say almost like a code of.

Speaker 3 (01:48:35):
Like rules of engagement.

Speaker 5 (01:48:37):
That's exactly what it is, yea.

Speaker 2 (01:48:39):
And they respect those rules. Yeah, and that makes it
a little bit easier to work with elementals. I mean,
it's like trying to explain calculus to a mosquito. They're
not gonna get it. They're not going to understand. You
can't do it. It's not going to work. So you
got to come up with other solutions. And you know,

(01:49:00):
each each category of the four types of demons has
their own difficulties, their own challenges. I would say the
easiest one to deal with is the wrathful spirit because
that's literally just an unrested person that needs to find
their way home. And that's usually the easiest thing we

(01:49:20):
can do. The powers that the church is literally designed
for that, so they respond very well to the effects
of the church. Thought forms can be you know, it depends,
it depends.

Speaker 5 (01:49:33):
On if it's something created from the person's trauma, they
you have to face that trauma and heal themselves.

Speaker 3 (01:49:43):
Yeah, stick, I mean that's the thing, is that what
do you do.

Speaker 2 (01:49:49):
When you're dependent with the thought form completely upon the
skillfulness or lack thereof.

Speaker 3 (01:49:56):
Of the of the victim.

Speaker 2 (01:49:58):
You know, how do you work with you got to
work with the victim, But then now you're you're you're
bound by how sophisticated their own spirituality is and how
severe is there trauma.

Speaker 3 (01:50:11):
So that's the hardest part of I think the work
that that it is.

Speaker 2 (01:50:18):
But that's how I would define an elemental is anything
you'd add to that, because we've dealt with them quite often.

Speaker 5 (01:50:26):
Quite often. The only thing, you know, my worst case
with you was was the case where it was a
gin and the client ended up ended up dying because
he kept getting in trouble and we didn't have access
to him and it was partially influenced by what he
was being oppressed by. Lisa just asked a question in

(01:50:48):
the chat that I think can segue into this. Shees,
how do you determine if you're dealing with an elemental? Well,
it depends on what you get during the investigation. That's
what you have equipment for.

Speaker 3 (01:50:56):
And prayer.

Speaker 5 (01:50:57):
If the prayers of the church, right, prayers of the
church don't seem to be working, well, I mean, that's
not crazy activity going on that you can't I.

Speaker 2 (01:51:06):
Mean, it's kind of like it's kind of like asking
an ontole. I mean a it's like it's it's it's
like asking a doctor, a surgeon. You know, how do
you determine it's this type of cancer versus that type
of cancer down it's it's it's a process of investigation,

(01:51:28):
it's it's a lot of skill, it's a lot of experience,
you know, and it's working with these things over the
course of several years, which is why, I mean, the
only way that anyone can really ever become an exorcist, right,
the only way is through a lifelong mentorship. Really, and

(01:51:52):
what I mean by lifelong is that an extorcist takes
you under their wing and you're basically there still until
the day they die. Even when you might rise to
the occasion of being in that position, you're still ultimately
learning from that.

Speaker 5 (01:52:12):
Yeah, that's going to be a constant thing because, like
you said, elementals don't have the rules of engagement that
the other spirits and entities would have. So you know,
you do this work long enough, there's a pattern that develops. Well,
anything that doesn't fit the pattern could be elemental, and
then you've got to do the process of elimination with that.

(01:52:32):
So it does take a lot of time to determine
what it is, and even if you do determine what
it is, it may not be something that's solvable. One
thing that cracks me up, you know, the I know
all of our fans love the Dead Files too, and
there's several episodes where Amy Allen will come in and
basically she'll be like, things are here that don't want

(01:52:54):
you here, and you're screwed. You're gonnaed to move, And
I mean.

Speaker 3 (01:52:59):
Yeah, I mean that is the answer.

Speaker 2 (01:53:01):
Yeah, sometimes, you know, because like it's like it's like,
again to use a corporeal example, you know, you you
live in a you might buy a house that's infested
with termites. It could be so bad, it could be
so far gone that you really just literally have to
tear it down, uh and start again before you could

(01:53:22):
ever make it, you know, habitable again. So that's kind
of what this is, you know. But no, it's it's
an experiential thing. There's so many variables at work with
trying to diagnose the very specifics that I think really
the only way to truly answer the question is years

(01:53:46):
of experiences.

Speaker 4 (01:53:49):
Years.

Speaker 2 (01:53:49):
There's no there's no, like, there's no formula I can say,
here's how you do it? You it's a it's a
it comes with experience, you know, you just as you
do this.

Speaker 5 (01:54:00):
Work, experience, gut feeling.

Speaker 3 (01:54:02):
Yeah, it takes years.

Speaker 2 (01:54:04):
It takes years to be able to make that kind
of determination and get it right. It does, and that
just comes with the time and a lot of it,
you know, decades open.

Speaker 5 (01:54:15):
I remember we had one case in Clayton County. You
remember the one where we went to the backyard and
both you and I. I started getting numb from my
feet up to my waist and yours was your heart.
It's kind of personal personal encounters too, feeling certain kinds
of energy which you get more sensitive the longer you
do this.

Speaker 3 (01:54:36):
Yeah, and that sometimes sometimes the.

Speaker 5 (01:54:38):
Personal reaction to a phenomenon may tell you, okay, this
is this is probably gonna be elemental.

Speaker 3 (01:54:46):
Yeah yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:54:49):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (01:54:49):
Mystic asks another question here. I would love to learn
rmac and at some point Latin, could you advise me
on a good way to go about it. Sometimes when
studying religious texts, I come across them and I want
to understand. I mean, that's that's you'd have to go
into university for that's a that's a you'd have to
go to a university that has a language department with

(01:55:12):
with a professor that that deals specifically with dead languages.

Speaker 7 (01:55:18):
Yeah, I mean you could go through an Assyrian Church
of the East. The Assyrian Church of the East worship
in Aramaic, and so at least if you went to
an and they are all over the place, especially in
England where Danielle is, wouldn't be hard to get in.

Speaker 6 (01:55:33):
Touch with somebody because they could.

Speaker 3 (01:55:34):
When they have somebody that would teach her how to
do it.

Speaker 6 (01:55:37):
Well, maybe not, but because they worship in Aramaic, they
would be a good source.

Speaker 2 (01:55:41):
Of the people that can't teach that could show you
someone They would connect you to someone that would know Yeah,
I mean, but I mean mostly that's going to be
for the for the average person that's going to be
signing up with a university that has a dead language
program and the only the only real particular universities are

(01:56:03):
going to have that.

Speaker 6 (01:56:05):
I mean, Latin Latin is easier.

Speaker 3 (01:56:06):
Of course Latin would be easier, yeah, Aramic, but yeah, but.

Speaker 7 (01:56:10):
I think for Danielle's benefit because obviously I knowing links
I'm from there. The with to make the distinction between
what we're talking about talking about in the Latin mass
is ecclesiastical Latin, which is a different pronunciation and is
a more restricted vocabulary on purpose because it means that
the words can't change their meaning. You know, Dominos can

(01:56:33):
only mean the Lord Jesus Christ and so. And then
there's classical Latin, which is you're more likely to be
able to find someone that will teach you that they're
the same language, it's just different pronunciation, so I would
recommend to. And then there's English derivative Latin, which is,
you know how we pronounce Latin in an anglicized Well,

(01:56:54):
so we say we say Caesar for example, which is
an anglicization. A classical Latinist would would say Kaiser. In
the church we'd say chezer. So but for Daniel's benefit,
it wouldn't be hard for us to find somebody that
would teach you classical Latin. It's taught in a lot
of schools in England still. In fact, it's taught in

(01:57:14):
more schools than ever because the last government brought it
back in high school. So I think you could find
that fairly easily. And YouTube is replete with people that
can give you a primer on Latin.

Speaker 2 (01:57:24):
I think there might even be programs for Latin. I
don't know about our mate, I think there are ye.
All right, we're going to take our we're going to
take our next break. Hold your hold your thoughts there, Brandon,
We're going to take our next break here, and when
we come back, we'll take more of your questions about
whatever might be on your mind.

Speaker 3 (01:57:41):
Or go away, how.

Speaker 15 (01:58:01):
The work? Cantlie?

Speaker 14 (01:58:03):
No, but nowhere.

Speaker 15 (01:58:09):
Don't see.

Speaker 14 (01:58:18):
Follow Gabby, Gabby, let.

Speaker 12 (01:58:46):
Up?

Speaker 1 (01:58:59):
Not a bar?

Speaker 12 (01:59:07):
Oh my, don't.

Speaker 14 (01:59:19):
Don't just by hell we lost those of the big
don't you see.

Speaker 4 (01:59:27):
I don't you see it?

Speaker 16 (01:59:28):
Last?

Speaker 14 (01:59:29):
By golly beyond by.

Speaker 15 (02:00:00):
I can't tell that.

Speaker 1 (02:00:03):
Till that do that.

Speaker 12 (02:00:11):
Don't can till apt.

Speaker 15 (02:00:30):
To talk.

Speaker 4 (02:01:09):
We keep any faster and faster.

Speaker 1 (02:01:13):
I don't know where.

Speaker 15 (02:01:14):
We're out, and we're out.

Speaker 4 (02:01:15):
To yet keep up with disaster disaster and to get it.

Speaker 11 (02:01:21):
They're after.

Speaker 6 (02:01:22):
They're after me, oh.

Speaker 15 (02:01:25):
Like by asking a fast I'm not like ask me, aboust.

Speaker 4 (02:02:32):
We keep any faster.

Speaker 10 (02:02:33):
And faster, and now we're out and we're out to learn.

Speaker 4 (02:02:39):
To keep up with this as to disaster and begin that.

Speaker 12 (02:02:44):
They're after they're out to me.

Speaker 15 (02:02:52):
Fast with the Fast.

Speaker 17 (02:02:59):
Fast to Pattatt, Doctor Batta, The Sadcast, Sat.

Speaker 10 (02:03:56):
Stops, Stass.

Speaker 14 (02:04:52):
Boots.

Speaker 2 (02:05:41):
Welcome back everyone to the third and final hour of
Vestiges After Dark. We were originally going to be talking
about astrology tonight, but we could not connect with the
guest that we had scheduled for the date. So this
is now the open lines open topics that we never got.
Because it issues earlier in the season, we had to

(02:06:02):
cancel our one of our open lines dates and so
you got one anyway, So here you go. When we
come back here we will take more of your questions.
You can also call into the show using our brand
new phone number two oh seven five four four nineteen
eighty three. That's two oh seven five four four nineteen
eighty three. You can also ask your questions in the

(02:06:25):
various chat rooms. Our moderators are looking across the internet,
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I'm checking two. So if you've got a question, just
put it into the chat or call. We'd prefer you'd call,
but I know a lot of you rather just chat,
and that's fine. We'll take them as they come in.

Speaker 3 (02:06:45):
Don't go in.

Speaker 15 (02:07:25):
Is that.

Speaker 14 (02:07:31):
Is that the known.

Speaker 9 (02:07:37):
Is that.

Speaker 12 (02:07:44):
Is that the man.

Speaker 2 (02:08:14):
I know that there was one question from the ether
that we did not get to Brendan if you want
to go ahead and ask that now, we can at
least knock that one off the list while other ones
come in.

Speaker 3 (02:08:27):
Uh oh oh the ether, yeah, the other ether.

Speaker 8 (02:08:36):
So is there a connection between Jesus' temptation described in
Matthew to Buddhist temptation by Mara and the Maga Baga
or is this an example of actual truths that religions hold.

Speaker 2 (02:08:51):
Well, I don't think there's no historical connection between the two.
You're talking about about a five hundred year difference, and
you know, two differ and continents to very different cultures,
So there's no there's no historical connection there. It's not
like the story started somewhere and made its way across
the world and other people started adopting it.

Speaker 3 (02:09:11):
However, that being said, we are dealing with.

Speaker 2 (02:09:14):
Archetypes in these things, and the archetypes do get into
everybody's head, and they do and in fact permeate through
all culture, all religion. So this is another example of
the hero's descent into the underworld and the hero's triumph
over the forces of darkness that he finds there. Okay,

(02:09:38):
it's a universal archetypal truth. Our best stories are written
about these very things. I mean, Star Wars is that,
Harry Potter is that? Uh, Rings, Lord of the Rings
is that? I mean, pick some of our best stories
and the reason why they are so loved. Even though
you know it's basically a retelling of the same archetypal story,

(02:10:01):
it's done, you know, cleverly enough, artistically enough, differently enough
that it still feels fresh and new.

Speaker 3 (02:10:08):
And this is that.

Speaker 2 (02:10:10):
However, when you're talking about something like Jesus or Buddha,
you're talking about the very incarnation of these things. Okay,
So Jesus in particular isn't just you know, man, you know,
God becoming man, but it's God becoming a perfect man.

(02:10:31):
And the perfect hero is represented in the archetype. Of course,
the archetypes are always going to show you the most
perfect example of what that is. Nobody could possibly live
up to, you know, the archetypes that these people represent,
even the characters themselves. Don't look at Dumbledore. He's an
extremely flawed character, right, extremely flawed. There's not far from perfect. However,

(02:10:55):
he's still in Bodies that Harry Potter too, He's i
mean kind of almost almost a terrible hero, you know,
but he he you know, the hero lives through him
and he manifested the best that he can.

Speaker 3 (02:11:11):
I know, Hermione right, yeah, helped him out. You know.

Speaker 2 (02:11:14):
Luke Skywalker also flawed, you know, and they made him
very flawed when Disney took over.

Speaker 5 (02:11:21):
So I'm still still angry about that, I know.

Speaker 2 (02:11:26):
So you know, but this this goes to show you,
you know that, you know, Jesus is now the epitome,
the perfection of the archetype, not just you know, not
just a representation of it, but the perfect fulfillment of it,
because all humanity is basically living out these archetypes. He
he had, I mean, if he's going to come and

(02:11:46):
be among us, he's going to have to integrate those
archetypes too. He's going to do them in a perfect way.
And that's what's represented there. So you're going to see
parallels because the archetypes love to maintain the synchronicity of
their existence. So those parallels are going to be found

(02:12:09):
within the variations, but there's no historical connection between them.
They are completely independent tellings and I would say that,
you know, Buddha's you know, defeat of Mara was it
is absolutely an internal process entirely. You know, this is

(02:12:33):
not a vision he had. This was not some kind
of mystical event that took place in time. This was
an allegory for the challenge that we have to attain
to enlightenment and the obstacles that prevent that from happening.
It was a way of trying to express that, in
much the same way that that the Garden of Eden's

(02:12:56):
story tries to express through allegory, how evil came into
the world. There's are not historical events, but they are
indicative of something great or something truer, something more profound,
more transcendent, and therefore more real. But yeah, that's that's

(02:13:16):
I don't know, father anything, you can any thoughts you
have on on Mara Mara's you know, the the the
hero's dissent and how I guess.

Speaker 7 (02:13:26):
Not really, I mean, like I think, yeah, I think
you're right, these are these are well, it just goes
back to Genesis. We're made in the image and likeness
of God, and therefore archetypical stories are going to be generated.
The matter of what period of time and space we're in,

(02:13:47):
you know. And in a way this is you know,
if you look at the unique character of Jesus Christ,
is that he's four announced, like he's pre announced by
multiple events, not only before his birth, that you can
look back in your own life and think, actually, he
has been pre announced in my own life.

Speaker 6 (02:14:05):
And so and that's what I mean.

Speaker 7 (02:14:07):
Go aback to what I said much earlier in the
show about you know, if we actually understood all of
the scientific truths of of of our city, all of
it would would have the same effect. It would still
you know, it would point to the Christ moment, because
that's the center point of the whole of creation or

(02:14:28):
the whole the whole of creation that God God has
made for for human beings.

Speaker 13 (02:14:32):
Anyway, well said, I guess with the question the more
not historically related part, but the fact that Buddha was
tempted three times, like with the number three, and then
in the Gospel of Matthew and Luke, Jesus is also
tempted three times.

Speaker 8 (02:14:53):
So I think that was the kind of the question
of that kind of connection being tempted three times.

Speaker 3 (02:14:59):
I mean, that's an archetypal parallel. Again, you know, the
I think we tend to think.

Speaker 2 (02:15:08):
I mean, I think the number three is a very
significant number for understanding our linear place because we are
sort of conditioned by past, present, and future, and so
when we tell a story, we tend to always, I guess,
qualify it by having three primary examples, Like every story

(02:15:32):
has a rising action, a climax, and a falling action.
And I think it's just an example of that is
that it has to have sort of a beginning, a middle,
and an end. There's always going to be three components,
and so I think to have the satisfaction of a
cohesive story, that element of three events must take place

(02:15:59):
in order for it to be fully.

Speaker 3 (02:16:02):
Realized. As I really what I think it is.

Speaker 2 (02:16:05):
I think that's just more of a of a human
condition because of our linear predicament of having to see
things through the lens of three stages of time, you know,
because everything is based as relative to that, Everything is
based upon that.

Speaker 3 (02:16:25):
You know, every thought you have has.

Speaker 2 (02:16:28):
To be either about something that occurred a long time ago,
something that you're having to deal with now, or projecting
something that you're going to have to deal with later.
There's nothing else you can't conceive of any kind of
action that does not exist within one of those three categories.

Speaker 5 (02:16:47):
Like any literary work, especially fiction, you have the introduction,
the body, and the conclusion.

Speaker 2 (02:16:52):
Yes, yeah, so I think it's basically just a continuation
of that phenomenon, which is not terribly mystical.

Speaker 3 (02:16:59):
It's just sort of how our brains work.

Speaker 2 (02:17:02):
And so I think in the telling of the story,
whether or not Jesus was actually tempted three times is
probably irrelevant. What is I think important here is that
in order to emphasize the elements of that event, the author,
the gospel writer, decided to emphasize it in that way too,

(02:17:26):
so that it can best connect with the reader.

Speaker 3 (02:17:29):
And I believe it does well.

Speaker 7 (02:17:30):
And I also, I mean to nitpick a little bit
and said it before Jesus was not tempted.

Speaker 6 (02:17:35):
The devil dead to attempt to tempt Jesus.

Speaker 3 (02:17:39):
Well, yeah, the temptation, I mean, he had the goal
to try it. Yeah, I mean yeah, I mean yeah,
if you're going to be if you're going to be.

Speaker 2 (02:17:50):
Well, because theologically it is referred to as the temptation
of the desert, but it's not really Jesus's temptation. You're right,
it's it's it's the devil's attempt to do so. Yes,
so it's really probably Jesus. The temptation in the desert's
really the failure of the devil to achieve this because

(02:18:10):
it didn't work, obviously. You're right, Yeah, you're right. It's
probably a bad it's probably a misnomer. It's it's probably
not the best.

Speaker 6 (02:18:21):
The Orthodox.

Speaker 7 (02:18:22):
The Orthodox are very strong on that. You know, I've
heard many Orthodox vicious preach something dead.

Speaker 2 (02:18:33):
You're right, you're right, Yeah, it's it's probably it would
be probably best to change the name of that, but
it is referred to the temptation of the Desert. But
it's it's how you look at it, right, It's how
you look at it.

Speaker 3 (02:18:47):
It's the devil attempting it. All right. So we got
a question from April what is it there?

Speaker 5 (02:18:55):
Would this be similar to history repeating itself?

Speaker 2 (02:18:57):
Going back to the last ques, the last question about
three about those just similarities. I mean, it's how history
repeats itself. I don't know if it's an example of it,
but it's how it happens. Is that, you know, I
think we tend to think of ourselves as as unique
and different from everything else.

Speaker 3 (02:19:16):
And we're not.

Speaker 2 (02:19:17):
It's like when Scripture says that there's nothing new under
the sun, it means it we're not that terribly different
from our ancient ancestors.

Speaker 3 (02:19:26):
We're really not.

Speaker 2 (02:19:27):
When you read the Gospels, the reason they still speak
to us today because they have the same problems. Yeah,
I mean the Pharisees are the same problems we deal
with in church today. You know, you get these these
people that follow the law, the letter of the law,
but they don't live it, so they're hypocrites. I mean,
I mean, who hasn't been to a church that hasn't

(02:19:48):
experienced that. I mean, it's the same problem hasn't gone anywhere.
You know, this was two thousand years and nothing's changed.
People still act with religiosity instead of genuine you.

Speaker 7 (02:20:00):
Know, uh.

Speaker 2 (02:20:03):
Interest in in in in furthering the well being of
of of of everyone else, uh and facilitating their relationship
to God, you know.

Speaker 3 (02:20:12):
As long as well as our own.

Speaker 2 (02:20:14):
You know, this is this is just I think I
think what history, why history repeats itself is because there's
there's only really one mistake that's ever been made, which
is to disobey God. And and therefore you just get
into a perpetual repeating pattern after that, you know, it's
just the same ship, different day phenomenon is what I
call it, you know, And and it's the fall.

Speaker 6 (02:20:38):
Well it's also it's the limits of human imagination as well.

Speaker 7 (02:20:41):
And you know, we can only interpret events through through
the lens, through the lens of experience, we know, Yeah,
so that those restrictions would apply, which is why we
see Well, it's literally how we interpret the universe, we know,
through through patterns. So we see patterns in everything, and
more more than ever in stories. You know, words are

(02:21:04):
a pattern.

Speaker 6 (02:21:05):
I mean, think about this.

Speaker 7 (02:21:07):
This this always blows my mind, especially in a culture
where we're so used to things being centrally planned and
top down government and all that sort of thing. The
language we're speaking now, you know, I'm speaking it in Australia,
you're speaking in.

Speaker 6 (02:21:24):
Georgia, in America.

Speaker 7 (02:21:27):
We know that our listeners are all over the world,
but we're able to communicate in these words, which are
in fact signs, because all words are signs. Read the
City of God Sin Augustine. If you want to know
more about that, I won't bore you now. But nobody
ever designed the English language. There's no central planning organization
that decides what's English and what's not.

Speaker 6 (02:21:49):
It's done by patterning, by call.

Speaker 7 (02:21:54):
And response, and it happens organically, Yes it happens, and yes,
it develops into something that's way more sophisticated than any
government program.

Speaker 5 (02:22:04):
You know.

Speaker 6 (02:22:05):
It's the ultimate libertarian argument.

Speaker 7 (02:22:07):
By the way, the very fundamental basis on which we
communicate was something that was not centrally planned. But this
is not my argument. Just I hate taking credit for
other people's work. Friedrich Hayek said this.

Speaker 2 (02:22:21):
I mean, that's evidence by just go back and let's
you know, there's some wonderful linguists, you know, you know,
actually scholarly academic linguists on YouTube that talk about this
kind of thing, and they'll read like medieval English.

Speaker 3 (02:22:39):
You can't understand it. I mean, it's it's practically incomprehensible.
You know.

Speaker 7 (02:22:45):
That's why Shakespeare is so important, because it's really the
first era of modern English, of modern England.

Speaker 3 (02:22:51):
And even that's hard to understand for most people, right.

Speaker 7 (02:22:55):
I mean, you know, but it's it's you have to
get an ear for it, but is decipherable, whereas choices
Canterbury Tales.

Speaker 6 (02:23:03):
Is much more difficult. Difficult for modern English you know
speakers to understand.

Speaker 3 (02:23:09):
Yeah, much more. It's true.

Speaker 2 (02:23:11):
So, yeah, it evolves, but I mean, yeah, we're we're limited.
And all this to say, we're limited by the human story.
We're limited by the human experience, and we're limited by
the fallen world, uh and the.

Speaker 3 (02:23:24):
Nature that follows.

Speaker 2 (02:23:25):
So therefore, all we can do is keep repeating the
same mistakes, because that's what that's the insanity of disobeying God.
I mean, it's a type of insanity, really, right, doing something,
doing the same thing, expecting different results, you know, they say,
and that's what we all, that's.

Speaker 3 (02:23:44):
What we constantly do. It's what we constantly do. You know.

Speaker 2 (02:23:50):
I look at the all the problems in the world
today and they're all the same problems that existed one
hundred years ago, you know, just different variations of it.
And you can do little things to make things better,
but in the end, the same ultimate problems that evolve

(02:24:11):
out of the various entropy that we deal with, the
various forms of entropy that we deal with, will always prevail.
Even the best systems will eventually fail as a result
of it. You know, there's a futility to the fallen world.
It's self destructive. So even the best things that we
can create within it cannot supersede the demise that is inevitable.

(02:24:38):
And and and and that's why religion is important. That's
why church is important. That's why the resurrection is important,
because that is the only solution, the only thing.

Speaker 3 (02:24:47):
That gets you out of it. It's the only thing.
Right is the method to and and what is what?
What's this?

Speaker 2 (02:24:54):
What is the what is the secret? The secret is
to literally be absorbed by the very thing you are
attempting to defeat. It's it's it's you know, you wanted
you want to die, you want to defeat death, Well
then die. That's how you do it, you know, with

(02:25:17):
grace of course, otherwise it would be feudal there too,
But even so, that's how it's done, you know, That's
that's that's why we still do it. I know one
question that came in years ago when I would talk
about that the Cross has already defeated death, that like, well,

(02:25:38):
then why are we still dying? They would ask, you know,
and and and the answer to that is just what
I said. It's like, well, because because now death is
the is the means through which we achieve immortality. You know,
if we're going if we brought death into the world,
we need to take death out of it. And we

(02:26:00):
do that individually, not collective, not collectively at one time.
And they're definitely not God doing it for us, God
giving us the tools to do it for ourselves, because
we all contain the individual seed of that thing. We
call it sin, and we think of sin as like wrongdoing,

(02:26:21):
but that's again sort of like treating symptoms instead of
the disease.

Speaker 3 (02:26:26):
Sin.

Speaker 2 (02:26:26):
Equating sin to wrongdoing is really missing the point. What
sin ultimately is, okay.

Speaker 1 (02:26:33):
Is the.

Speaker 3 (02:26:35):
Is the absorption of the the the indulgence of futility.
That's what sin is. It's indulging in futility.

Speaker 2 (02:26:48):
And only when you finally realize that there is the
only way you can get out of that pattern.

Speaker 3 (02:26:54):
Is the only way you.

Speaker 2 (02:26:55):
Can defeat it is to give it all up. Yeah,
literally empty oneself. And that's where Buddha and Jesus really
have the same method. They might describe it differently. They
might it might appear on the surface to have different motivations,
but ultimately I think that's why they both work, I
really do you know. And the Church, I think recognizes

(02:27:19):
that now we were talking earlier, father about how you know,
the Church is so much more enlightened theologically today than
it was even back then, you know, and that's an
example of it, because the Church of the nineteen thirties
would have never been able to say that somebody who
wasn't a Catholic, in fact, not let alone a Christian,
a Catholic, could attain to the Kingdom of Heaven.

Speaker 3 (02:27:38):
Was not possible.

Speaker 7 (02:27:40):
There was actually a shift by Pious the twelfth time,
there was a shift to I mean Pious the twelfth
was still you know, asserting clearly the primacy of the
Catholic Church.

Speaker 6 (02:27:51):
But yeah, you know, you get this, and then you
get a further shift.

Speaker 7 (02:27:54):
In luminingensum of the Second Masking Council, where you get this,
you know, instead of instead of the language of you know,
where where the Catholic Church is, there is Christ. And
that's that you get this shift to well, what it
literally says is the Church of Christ subsists in the
Catholic Church, which is which is a very different statement

(02:28:18):
because it says, and it's a much more honest statement,
and it's a much more truthful statement. It says the
Church of Christ cannot be subject and restricted to the
Catholic Church.

Speaker 6 (02:28:30):
And and that's why you get with this, you know
Carl Rhan as.

Speaker 7 (02:28:33):
Anonymous Christian, which says, actually, God is at work in
the lives of all people.

Speaker 6 (02:28:38):
We get that through Genesis.

Speaker 7 (02:28:40):
And therefore the job of the church isn't to go
around and beat people over the head and say, you know,
burn all that crap, and here's your Bible. It's to say, actually,
you're already cooperating with God. God is Jesus Christ. You've
been worshiping him anonymously. Every time you've cooperated with goodness.
Let us give you the fullness goodness.

Speaker 3 (02:29:00):
Yeah, it's basically just absolutely.

Speaker 2 (02:29:04):
And it's more, it's it's it helps to emphasize the
completeness of it. Like there's you know, there's there's ways
of doing things right. Some ways are not the most efficient,
some ways are. You could succeed both ways. Like for example, okay,
let's say you want to become a master pianist. All right,
and let's say you might not have necessarily the raw talent,

(02:29:26):
but you have the interest, you love the piano.

Speaker 3 (02:29:28):
You want to be a master pianist.

Speaker 2 (02:29:30):
One day, Well, I mean you could, you could buy
one and just start banging around on it and hope
that maybe you can figure it out one day and
maybe if you keep doing that you'll get really good.
It could happen the site rights the Bible exactly right,
I mean, it's possible, right, Or you could you know,

(02:29:51):
train under a master pianist and he can, you know,
teach you. One is a much better way to achieve
that goal than the other. They're both possibly and ultimately
your heart's in the right place in both directions. You
know you want to you want to play the piano,
you want to be good at it. But one way

(02:30:14):
is going to be much more efficient, much more skillful,
and will guarantee more success than the other.

Speaker 3 (02:30:22):
And this is like that.

Speaker 2 (02:30:23):
So, I mean, every religion is the piano, every religion.
But whether or not you ever get good at it, well,
that's gonna have different variables depending upon which way you
decide to go about it. In my opinion, Catholicism is

(02:30:44):
the more complete program for that, since that's the goal.
But you know, other people might not do well with
a more formal program like that. Maybe they do better
with something that's a deviation and let them have at it,
I would say, well, I mean it's riskier, but you

(02:31:05):
could do it. It's not evil, it's not wrong, it's
just maybe not the best way to achieve it. So
that's that's kind of how I look at it. I
look at all religion this way, and honestly, I'm also
I'm a pragmatist, so I kind of look at it
both ways and say, well, I want to study under
the master pianist. But that doesn't mean I'm not going
to bang around.

Speaker 3 (02:31:23):
On it too.

Speaker 1 (02:31:24):
You know.

Speaker 2 (02:31:24):
That's kind of how I look at it, you know.
So it's like, yes, I'm a Catholic bishop. That's where
my you know, where my focus is. I want that completeness.
I see that as the more perfect path. But doesn't
mean that I can't gain benefit from studying Buddha or
understanding Buddhism or Hinduism or any other religion.

Speaker 6 (02:31:45):
A lot of the oppositions that is based on fear. Yes,
Like it's like, you know, what is your faith? So well,
for some people it might be true.

Speaker 7 (02:31:53):
I think if your faith is in fact quite fragile,
this is legitimate.

Speaker 6 (02:31:57):
Now I'm not mocking people in this state. If your
faith is fragile.

Speaker 7 (02:32:01):
You probably should stay within with very narrow parameters around
your life. And I think that's what happens naturally, like
people sort themselves into those camps. And you know, if
that's true for you, then that is true for you.
But a lot of us have a very strong and
deep faith. We all have different gifts. Faith is one
of them. The capacity for faith is a gift. And

(02:32:25):
actually for those of us of deep faith, we're not
threatened by these things. We're not going to suddenly go, oh,
you know, I need to abandon the truth of Jesus
Christ and you know, go and live on some yurt
and do some odd thing.

Speaker 6 (02:32:38):
You know.

Speaker 7 (02:32:38):
So I think it does depend on the person. But
what tends to happen is it tends to be the
ones that have, you know, very little capacity for difference
that wants to restricts everybody else because they assume that
everybody else has the same risk exposure, and it's just

(02:32:58):
not true. Some of us, some of us are best
at at handling risk and managing it, you know, Jamie,
and I know all about that from the police. Is
no different when it comes to our spirituality. So for
those of us who have a great capacity for that,
for that risk. In other words, we can we can
take on all sorts of ideas and philosophies, and that's
the point of studying.

Speaker 6 (02:33:19):
By the way, if we have that ability, it's not
a risk for us.

Speaker 3 (02:33:23):
I think.

Speaker 6 (02:33:23):
I think that don't worry about us, We'll be fine.

Speaker 3 (02:33:25):
I think risk.

Speaker 2 (02:33:26):
I think risk management is really the undoing of most people.
I mean, I don't think that's necessarily something that people
let themselves ever get good at, because they're too afraid
of them, right, I mean, in not just with religion,
with everything. I mean, I think that's the major reason
that there's so much poverty. It's and we can we
can talk about, you know, lack of opportunity and all

(02:33:48):
of that, but ultimately, when you really break it down, okay,
is that.

Speaker 3 (02:33:56):
It's risk.

Speaker 2 (02:33:57):
It's it's being risk adverse that keeps people poor, particularly
in the first world. I mean, you can maybe you know,
get a pass in the third world, yeah, okay, no
opportunity to get ahead, so we get that. But in
the first world, it's it's risk aversion. You're afraid, you're
afraid to lose everything, so you you you stay in

(02:34:18):
your box and you deal with mediocrity at best.

Speaker 5 (02:34:22):
You're told you can't move out of that box, and.

Speaker 2 (02:34:25):
Or you like and you like, you're too you're too
risk adverse to actually challenge it. You can always break
it down no matter how you want to look at it.
But the fact of the matter is that is why
so many people are unhappy with their lives, because they're
risk adverse and they're too afraid to actually be successful.

Speaker 3 (02:34:43):
They are.

Speaker 7 (02:34:44):
I think there's another thing that goes alongside that. So
I'm only just thinking about these things. You're you're you're
stimulating my brain.

Speaker 6 (02:34:52):
It is the you know, one of the.

Speaker 7 (02:34:56):
I hate to keep criticizing people in the church, but
I can't help. But I point the fingers at myself
to I'm not I'm not I'm not saying I'm better
than anybody else.

Speaker 6 (02:35:05):
But it's a bit like tenured professors, you know.

Speaker 7 (02:35:09):
You know, professors at universities were given tenures so that
they could have freedom to speak out unpopular things.

Speaker 6 (02:35:15):
Of course, as Thomas Soul said, it's harder to.

Speaker 7 (02:35:17):
Find a more frightened and weedy group of people than
tended professors. They don't actually do that, and I think
that that's crept in amongst the Christian clergy that because
here's where I'm coming from. I think that if you're
a priest, religious, bishop in the church, deacon in the church,
you you should it should be a minimum expectation that

(02:35:41):
you have the spiritual capacity to engage with to be honest,
anything philosophy and religion, spirituality can throw at you. You
can engage in any of it without fear, you know,
and simultaneously be a person that says, but the truth
is Jesus Christ. So unwavering about that because when people

(02:36:04):
come to your to your ministry, they don't want to
hear Oh, I'm not really sure journeying on a process,
but you know, I don't think that works. They need
to know that or people are seeking clarification when they
come to and I'm making a distinction.

Speaker 6 (02:36:22):
Between the ministers of the church and everybody else.

Speaker 7 (02:36:25):
When they come to a minister of the church, they're
actually seeking a clarification and an answer. Now we know
that answers are always provisional and there are all you know,
and and they're always deeper than the surface. And I
think you need to for a minister of the church,
you need to have both those things. Intention because then
you can be more a more effective pastor, because if
you just go, oh, I don't want to know about

(02:36:46):
any of that stuff, which is which tends to happen
to sort of fundamentalist types, then actually you can't engage
with anybody that's outside your little crew. Simultaneously, if you're
only a you know, syncretist, all past lead to the
same position, then you can't possibly be an evangelist for truth.

(02:37:07):
And also you can't ever grow the church because if
all things are just the same, why on earth should
anybody sacrifice their blood, treasure or time investing in the
Christian Church? And so and I think, really, you know,
what I'm describing is the heart of what has been
the malaise for the church in the I can only
speak for England and Australia and tangentially America, Canada and

(02:37:32):
New Zealand. That's been the malayse is that we've either
had people too narrow or too broad. What you need
to have is a certainty and belief people in the
congregation can have can have all sorts of, you know,
varying degrees of understanding what have you. A minimum expectation

(02:37:56):
of the clergy is that they absolutely believe the Creed,
but also are spiritually developed enough to be able to
encounter anybody when it comes to the life of faith.

Speaker 2 (02:38:08):
I like that, and I would actually take it further
and say that I think the Creed is the bare
minimum of calling oneself Christian, lay person or otherwise you know,
I mean or clergy or a lay person, is what
I meant to say. I think, yeah, you know, you
can talk about different variations on what those things mean,
and I don't think that necessarily negates or cancels out

(02:38:31):
person's Christianity. But I don't think you can say that
anything in the Creed is wrong and still call yourself
a Christian, which is why I reject the claim that
Jehovah's Witness or Mormons have to the name Christian because
they reject elements of that Creed. I'm sorry, that's you're

(02:38:52):
something else. And I don't think you're bad. I'm just saying,
stop calling yourself a Christian because you're know you're not
a Christian.

Speaker 6 (02:38:59):
Bye, you're wrong.

Speaker 3 (02:39:00):
You're wrong. Yeah, and even and not I said I
wrong about what is? It's your You just can't call
yourself Christian. It's not what it is.

Speaker 2 (02:39:07):
That's not what a Christian is, plain and simple. You know,
I wouldn't call myself a Jew just because you know,
I I followed the Geo Christian worldview, and I and
I and I and I see my my, my, my
spiritual foundation is coming from Judaism. That doesn't make me
a Jew, you know, just because I I believe almost

(02:39:28):
everything that they believe, you know what I mean. It's
it's it's more nuanced than that. But there are certain
things that are not negotiable. The creed is not negotiable
in my opinion, you know everything else. Yeah, Okay, the
dormission versus the assumption. I don't give a damn.

Speaker 3 (02:39:49):
I just don't give it to that. I know, tell
me about it. You know, it's like it doesn't matter.

Speaker 2 (02:39:57):
But if you want to have like a fun theological
debate about it, eat your heart out if you want to.
I don't think either perspective would keep you away from
your you know, your claim to Christianity. It's certainly not
going to interfere with your attainment of salvation.

Speaker 6 (02:40:10):
And the Catholic Church calls them both because Catholics call.

Speaker 2 (02:40:14):
The still yeah, because they don't really see a difference
I once to ask the priest that was I asked
that when we were when we were exploring the Eastern churches,
you know, my wife and I and we we were
with the Ruthenians. At this point, I asked my Ruthenian
pastor when we were talking about the the the assumption
versus the dor mission, and I said, I said, so,

(02:40:38):
so which one is it he goes?

Speaker 3 (02:40:41):
Is there a difference?

Speaker 2 (02:40:44):
And I said, you know, I'm not so sure there
is that he goes there, because there really isn't you know,
it's just a different way of framing it.

Speaker 8 (02:40:51):
Now.

Speaker 2 (02:40:52):
Where the difference, of course comes from. You know, is
is really in how one want to understand salvation or
how Mary's salvation was achieved. And there's different theological ways
of explaining that. The same thing with the immaculate conception.
That that's another one, right, you know, if you if

(02:41:13):
you're looking at the universe as an Orthodox person does,
as being where the corruption is not within the individual
but within the universe, and then the individual becomes corrupted
because they become part of the universe or they're born
into it, they're born into the fallen universe, then yeah,
then I can see where you'd say, well, we're all

(02:41:33):
born immaculately. There's nothing special about being born immaculately. What's
special about Mary at this point is she continued to
maintain it. But the you know when you're when you're Roman,
when you're Western Church, Roman, Catholic, whatever, and you know
your theology is that the stain is on you, that
it's a stain on your soul, you know, and that
we corrupt the universe through ourselves. Well, then yeah, being

(02:41:57):
born immaculate at least really profound. Right, So that's where
these kind of theological differences come from. But do they
intrinsically matter to whether or not one's Christian, whether or
not one a chief salvation? Of course not but not negotiable.

Speaker 3 (02:42:13):
There is the creed. You know, you can't.

Speaker 2 (02:42:15):
You can't say you do not believe in the resurrection
of the dead and still call yourself Christian. I'm sorry,
you can't. You know, you can't say you believe in
multiple baptisms and call yourself Christian. You're you can't. You
you might be something, but you're you know, you're you're
You're not. You're not Christian, You're something else, you're something else.
And we see that kind of stuff.

Speaker 6 (02:42:38):
You can't call a FOD a Cadillac.

Speaker 3 (02:42:40):
No, I mean, because it is it right.

Speaker 6 (02:42:43):
It doesn't make it so.

Speaker 3 (02:42:44):
It doesn't make it so that's right. It doesn't make
it so. So there, that's that's that's, that's just I
don't know.

Speaker 2 (02:42:51):
I mean, it's that's that's a pet peeve of mine,
because I find people.

Speaker 3 (02:42:57):
I've got a very narrow I mean, I should say
I have a very a very opposite of narrow. It's
I have a very.

Speaker 2 (02:43:05):
Vast range of tolerability for what I would classify as heresy.
You know, I enjoy the Gnostic texts. I see spiritual
value there. I don't see them as authoritative in any way.
I wouldn't read them at mass, but you know, I
do see the intrinsic spiritual value.

Speaker 3 (02:43:24):
I can see why these were I.

Speaker 7 (02:43:26):
Can see why they were restricted back in time where
most people were not educated and not ready for that
easily lead a lot of people astray.

Speaker 6 (02:43:34):
But actually live in those times now, So I read them.

Speaker 3 (02:43:37):
They're interesting, they're beautiful.

Speaker 6 (02:43:38):
I mean, by the way, if you read them, they're
beautiful and all the rest of it.

Speaker 7 (02:43:42):
But actually when you've read them, you go I can
see why these aren't in the cannon like, well, they're
not as.

Speaker 2 (02:43:46):
Good, they're not well, they're also there are also several
hundred years newer, so they're not as close to the
source mature.

Speaker 3 (02:43:55):
You can tell.

Speaker 6 (02:43:56):
They were.

Speaker 2 (02:43:58):
Sort of a mad musings on the subject that led
to different types of philosophical what ifs. And I think
that most of the Nogamadi is about a lot of
what ifs, you know. But they are interesting, not authoritic. Yeah,
they're imaginings and and and perhaps that makes good spirituality.
I mean it does because it can. It can lead

(02:44:20):
you into a type of encounter with God that otherwise
you might not have received. And I mean I certainly
found some intrinsic value there, which is why I enjoy
them and I cherish them. But I don't, you know,
I don't see them as well.

Speaker 6 (02:44:32):
Then with theologians, it's not for everybody, you know.

Speaker 3 (02:44:35):
It's yeah, that's right, you're you're right, You're right.

Speaker 2 (02:44:38):
I mean you do have to have, I think, a
certain foundation, a prequisite foundation, to be able to tackle
this material and be not let astray by it or
confused by it. I don't think anybody should pick up
a Nagamati and start reading it.

Speaker 7 (02:44:51):
But I think if you are the sort of person
that's interested in those things, you have a responsibility. This
is true of any academic subject, by the way, but
you have a responsibility to do that in an ordered way.

Speaker 6 (02:45:01):
And if you are a Christian, then you should do
that in a guided way. That We'll put it this way.

Speaker 7 (02:45:07):
If I read the Nagamadi Scriptures and said, oh, I
realized now the Catholic Church is wrong about then then
I'm not engaging in the canotic life, you know. I'm
thinking I've come across something that disproves the Catholic Church
is like do you know what. I think there's quite
a lot of really smart theologians in the Catholic Church

(02:45:28):
over the past thousand years who might have read.

Speaker 6 (02:45:30):
It to you, So just calm down.

Speaker 2 (02:45:34):
I mean, I think that's you just brought up something
that that really has always bothered me, as as the
arrogance of of contemporary man to you know, read scripture
and think that they got, you know, religion figured out
better than the fathers of the Church, who in some
cases even knew the people that knew Jesus, you know,

(02:45:58):
and and and in your thinking that you know, in
your modern day, when you're you're worried about your job
and paying your stupid bills and living your stupid life,
that you you know that you spend so much time
on that in your little armchair philosophy, that you spend
maybe an hour at night reading, that you're going to
challenge a mind like athanacious origin. I mean in some

(02:46:23):
of these guys that that dedicated all of their time
to the pursuit of this, and and we're closer to
the source material, could talk to people that knew something
or saw something.

Speaker 6 (02:46:37):
How original ideas.

Speaker 3 (02:46:41):
Are very very rare, yeah, and so like.

Speaker 7 (02:46:44):
And the only way you can know if you've had
an original idea, This is the whole point of PhDs, right,
The only way you can know if you've had an
original idea is to exhaust your mind trying to find
somebody somewhere who said it before you.

Speaker 3 (02:46:59):
Said it before. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:47:01):
So it's it just it irritates the hell out of
me when when people say that, no, this is wrong.
It's like the whole foundation, for example, of of of
the evangelical movement.

Speaker 7 (02:47:14):
I was I was just about to say, it's how
Protestantism has turned in on itself because you know, if
you look at the origins of Protestant what became the
Protestant movement, Like Martin Luther, for example, Martin Luther was
going back to the Church Fathers to challenge what was
going wrong in contemporary Tratholic practice, was trying to save
the ru And now we've got a situation where Protestants

(02:47:38):
are sort of superstitiously scared of the Church Fathers and
this it's a Bible only, no tradition, no church or
not apostol And like, how can you not believe in
tradition and the Church but believe in the Bible? Where
do you think it came from? I mean, it's such

(02:48:00):
it's such backward thinking. Well, sorry, reverse thinking that it's
hard to engage with and so, and it's why they're wrong.
It's unpopular to say that something's right and somethings are wrong.

Speaker 6 (02:48:13):
But I'm going to say it. But I'm not saying it.
I'm agreeing with the Church's position that that is the
wrong way of thinking.

Speaker 2 (02:48:21):
Well, I just don't think that we can challenge the
established origin point. I think you can argue about like
things that are not clear, sure, but the things that
led to the Reformation were clear. I mean, I'm not
talking about I'm not talking about like the selling of indulgences.

Speaker 3 (02:48:40):
And what inspired Luther to to to do what he did.

Speaker 2 (02:48:44):
I'm talking about everything that happened after that, to go
to challenge things like tradition, you know, to get into
things like solo fide.

Speaker 3 (02:48:55):
You know, and and and and claim that which isn't
a scrutural right right, which is I mean.

Speaker 2 (02:49:02):
Very much not a scriptural art argument. I mean, the
scripture actually says the complete opposite of that. But you know,
but to think that fifteen hundred years later that somehow
you're so much smarter than the guys that came up
with this stuff, you know. I mean, it's really the
like the epitome of arrogance, and it still lives in

(02:49:23):
today's time, not so much with the Protestants, but now
with the Evangelicals.

Speaker 7 (02:49:28):
You know, maybe we've made a connection here because you know,
we were talking earlier on about you know, what's happened
post iPhones, basically post the internet.

Speaker 6 (02:49:39):
What Luther.

Speaker 7 (02:49:40):
It's no coincidence that Luther or the effects of lu
Luther's actions coincide with the invention of the printing press, yes,
you know so, and that's what allows this to sort of,
you know, be a fire that rages throughout the known
world at the time.

Speaker 6 (02:49:59):
And the Internet is.

Speaker 7 (02:50:01):
Like the invention of the printing press, except on steroids.
So there's no surprise that we've had this massive disruption
to our culture, to our philosophy, to religion, to the
way we think. Because actually previously, I mean I remember it,
you know, because when I was a Baptist, Protestants would
talk about, oh yeah, some.

Speaker 6 (02:50:21):
Catholics might be Christians.

Speaker 7 (02:50:23):
That's their kind of position, like, you know, they've got
all the truth and they pass in judgment on other people. Well,
the invention of the Internet has blown that to pieces
because they can see and by the way, vice versa.
You know, in Catholic countries, they can see that Protestantism
is not just merely our complete heresy and they're all.

Speaker 6 (02:50:41):
Worshiping the devil, you know.

Speaker 7 (02:50:43):
Actually they can see that the sincere Christian belief within
Protestant groups as well. So it's kind of because it's
removed the gatekeepers and open the doors to people whose
language you don't speak, or or whose experience you have
never previously known.

Speaker 6 (02:50:59):
Before because those are now open.

Speaker 7 (02:51:01):
That's why we have this massive disruption and why we
have this this response that's going on and we're still
figuring it out, and actually it will be in a
thousand years time hopefully. Well that's our Lord has come
before them. Should be a great thing. People will look
back and you know, look look at it the same
way we're looking at Luther now.

Speaker 3 (02:51:23):
Yeah, I mean.

Speaker 7 (02:51:27):
Is why you have to have humility. You have to
humility time and space. That's what ability is the answer
to this.

Speaker 3 (02:51:33):
Yes, it is humility.

Speaker 2 (02:51:35):
I think when you look at what keeps people from
returning to the church or even wanting to be part
of the church. Ultimately, when you really get in there
and you have these conversations, it almost always it doesn't
almost it always absolutely returns to a lack of humility

(02:51:59):
point with in the individual, every single time, every single time,
even if it's something as simple as I don't want
to be bothered. I mean, well that that is a
lack of humility too, you know, because if if you
were more humble, then you'd understand your obligation.

Speaker 3 (02:52:17):
So okay, let's say let's say you don't like the church.

Speaker 2 (02:52:19):
Right, Let's say you know, the people suck, the priest sucks,
the whole thing sucks.

Speaker 3 (02:52:25):
You hate it always been true.

Speaker 2 (02:52:28):
I mean, believe me, I didn't get to where I'm at.
I didn't get to where i'm at loving what what
it was like? Okay, I mean honestly, you know, So.

Speaker 3 (02:52:39):
Why am I here?

Speaker 15 (02:52:41):
Right?

Speaker 2 (02:52:41):
We should be the answer to every that everybody has.
It should be the same answer.

Speaker 3 (02:52:45):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (02:52:46):
The reason I'm here is that I realized at some point.
I'm not trying to say, look at me, look how
great I am. I have so much, you know, I'm
lacking in humility. That's not what I'm arguing. But what
I am saying is I woke up one day and
I realized that going to church wasn't so much about
my salvation. It was about being available for everyone else's.

(02:53:07):
And that's why I did what I did. And that
took a selflessness, an act of selflessness to maintain, and
most people just don't want They're like, I don't need
to go to church.

Speaker 3 (02:53:18):
I've got the woods in the backyard. I can go
and pray anywhere. It's like, well, good for you, what
are you doing for everyone else? Though?

Speaker 2 (02:53:26):
I'm glad you're okay, but what are you doing for
everyone else? Because church isn't about you, It isn't about
your salvation. It's about everyone else's salvation, and they're salvation's
about you.

Speaker 3 (02:53:37):
They don't know you because you didn't let them know you.

Speaker 5 (02:53:40):
What it's called a community.

Speaker 2 (02:53:42):
Exactly, And that's what Christ is trying to achieve with
the church, or what he established a church to achieve,
what the apostles are trying to achieve. And we're miserably
failing at it, but not so bad because we're still here.

Speaker 7 (02:53:56):
But absolutely right, you know. And the reminder that Jesus
left with a church, not with a book, you know.
I mean, I've said it before and it's not my idea.
Jesus only wrote once.

Speaker 6 (02:54:08):
That we know of in his life.

Speaker 7 (02:54:10):
It was in the sand when a woman was caught
an adultry and we don't know what it said, no,
you know, but we know we have the writings and
manifestos of Chairman Mao.

Speaker 3 (02:54:21):
There's a there's a there is a of Stalin.

Speaker 2 (02:54:25):
There is a tradition though an i'n you know, an
unwritten tradition, I guess you could say, an oral tradition
about what was actually written and it was it was
it was all the sins of everybody that was standing there.
And when they looked and they saw that, he knew why.

(02:54:46):
That's why they walked away, because it really it shamed them.
I mean they they realized, my God, yeah, yeah, that
would have been everyone's said.

Speaker 3 (02:54:56):
And who knows.

Speaker 2 (02:54:57):
There's also some biblical scholars say that that was a
scribal edition that came, you know, decades later. There are
it is true, the earliest manuscripts do not contain the story.

Speaker 7 (02:55:09):
But he didn't write a manifesto. Other people, like he
gave the Sermon on the Mount, which you.

Speaker 6 (02:55:13):
Know, especially.

Speaker 7 (02:55:16):
Post Christian lefties, tried to use as a manifesto, you know,
to live by without the faith, without sacrificing anything or
believing anything. But Jesus didn't write that down, right, it
was written down by other people who were inspired by him.
And so because he wasn't a despot. That's the whole point.
Service of God is perfect freedom. So it's not like

(02:55:37):
Mao's Little Green Book. It's way better. And the reason
that it has a greater effect, apart from the fact
that it's God behind it, is that coercion can't be
part of it is handed on by simple, hopeless men,
and that's why we can assent to it.

Speaker 2 (02:55:57):
And that's why the church, being imperfect, still has the
self efic power to achieve what it was designed to achieve,
despite all its flaws and despite all the flaws of
everyone who runs it and attends it.

Speaker 9 (02:56:10):
You know.

Speaker 3 (02:56:12):
But that's it.

Speaker 2 (02:56:12):
And I mean, we we came here to talk about astrology,
we ended up talking about theology.

Speaker 3 (02:56:17):
I mean, that's just the way it goes in the show.
And yeah, it was a good show.

Speaker 2 (02:56:21):
And next week it gets even more theological because we'll
be talking about the Old Testament, some new perspectives on it,
which should be actually it's going to be new perspectives
on the ten Commandment specifically, I believe that will be
next week Tuesday at eight pm. We should have our
brand new one gigabyte up and down fiber connection. So
I'm looking forward to it. And if it's not good enough,

(02:56:43):
I can I can go to two gigabytes up and down.
I can't, and I will if it costes me issue,
I will. Okay, we'll open something up for that one.

Speaker 1 (02:56:54):
You know.

Speaker 3 (02:56:54):
Maybe that's why this season has been shipping.

Speaker 1 (02:57:00):
House.

Speaker 5 (02:57:01):
He usually does I'm willing to make that sacrifice.

Speaker 3 (02:57:05):
Anyway.

Speaker 2 (02:57:06):
Thank you moderators, Thank you Brandon, Father, Chris Jamie, Thanks
to all of you for joining us this evening. We'll
be back next week. Take care of God bless and
I'll see you out there in the ether.

Speaker 16 (02:58:18):
Theist conditions condition is to.

Speaker 12 (02:58:34):
Is thests is the best is the best is the.

Speaker 16 (02:58:41):
Is THEGST them is the beasts is the best.

Speaker 14 (02:58:47):
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