Unearthing the Horror of The Inhabitants with Beth Castrodale

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
And as.

Speaker 2 (00:54):
To say.

Speaker 3 (01:44):
Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, whichever the case may be.
For all of you listening out there across the crazy
planet Earth. Welcome to Vestiges after Dark, and I am

(02:06):
your host, Bishop Brian Wilette, coming to you live from
the deep woods of Western Georgia. On this April eighth,
twenty twenty five. Tonight, we explore the archetypes of the

(02:26):
horror genre, particularly as it applies to the novelization of horror,
with a brand new guest, Beth castre Dale, who I
think you're going to find fascinating. We're going to talk
about her book and the motivations and explorations behind horror

(02:49):
tonight on Vestige after Dark. Hello everybody, Welcome to Vestiges

(03:54):
after Dark. Once again, I am your host, Bishop Brian Wilette,
and I am very, very very happy to be here
with you tonight, more than you probably realize because last week,
while there's been some really really bad storms coming through
the South in these recent times, and they seem to
come through on Tuesdays. There's even there was even one

(04:16):
threatening a little while ago, but it doesn't look like
it's going to interfere with us tonight. I think we
are well on track for a very good show. We
have a very solid internet connection. As I was telling
everybody at Mass last week, well, it seems like when
we had the technician come out to take a look

(04:38):
at our internet, well it looks like they've been working
on this regional system I guess, the system that brings
the Internet to this entire area. And it shut the
internet down twice. Now we thought it was the storms,
but maybe it's because they discovered that there was actually

(04:59):
a problem at something more local to their own systems,
not something that was a problem with the connection to
this this building. And it seems what it has done
has been solid ever since. So we've had a really
good connection. But even better news than that, as I
mentioned I think a couple shows ago, our power company

(05:23):
is bringing fiber to this area. And what's really nice
about this is that because it's the power company, it's
going through the power line, so they don't have to
run a twenty five thousand dollars cable to this building
because it's already got the wire right. So this is

(05:45):
going to bring fiber two gigabytes up and down for
thirty dollars less than we're paying for this crappy internet
that we've been using for the last three years.

Speaker 4 (05:58):
Now.

Speaker 3 (06:00):
We're very excited about that. I think it's going to
when it comes, it's going to fix everything. And I
just got an email actually right as I was getting
ready here to do tonight's show that the saying to
expect to hear from them soon. They're going to be
hooking people up in our area, very very soon for
those who want it, and we definitely want it. So

(06:21):
this is going to be a very good and it
couldn't come any any any at a better time. Because
the Retreat House is just about finished. We finished the
painting on it, the stone walls that we want to
put up, we've just decided that the cost and the
work involved is just too prohibitive to the budget right now.

(06:44):
So we've decided we decided to forego that for the
time being, and then at some point in the future,
as money has become more available for that kind of thing,
something that we can invest into the Retreat House to
make the chapel what we originally intended it to be,
then we'll just have that work done at that time,

(07:05):
even if it shuts us down for a week or so.
That's not going to be a big problem. It's just
a little bit of a headache, but it'd be a
bigger headache to spend money from the budget that the
church really doesn't have to spend. So that's done. We
had the painter come out yesterday and it's all finished.
And now all we have to do is set a

(07:27):
date to bring everything over there that I am lending
from my personal chapel so that the retreat House chapel
can be functional. We haven't got enough donations to cover
all that yet, but as those donations hopefully come in,
we can then slowly replace what's at the chapel with

(07:51):
the stuff that I've loaned, and then bring that stuff
back so that I can have my private chapel back.
But it's a small little hiccup. I think that makes
it makes it more functional. So the reason I say
it's a good time for the Internet, for this new
internet service to come to this to this general area,
is that the Retreat House would be running off of
that same internet too, not the same Internet, but the

(08:13):
same company. And I did not want to sign up
with Comcast because you can get comcasts over there, you
can't get it here. There's already a Comcast line to
that building. There is probably a contract, I think if
I remember correctly, for one year, and Comcast was something
like one hundred and sixty No, I'm sorry, it was

(08:36):
like over two hundred dollars for a gigabyte, So I
would have had to sign a contract at twice what
we'll be paying for this fiber connection with the power company.
And now we don't have to worry about that, because see,
I didn't want to be like, Okay, now the retreat
house is ready, but we still can't stream from it

(08:57):
because there's no internet there yet, and I don't want
to sign a contract now we gotta wait for the
power company hooked up. So it sounds like it's gonna
all come together. Finally something works, and so we're very
excited about all that. If you would like to donate
to keep the show on the air and to of
course support this ministry, if you believe in what this
ministry does. It's a very costly ministry, and now we're

(09:19):
going to be able to help people in larger numbers
than we ever could before, and you know, have a
place where they can come and receive the sacraments, which
is really the most important thing. We haven't had that
since the since the mission church years ago. Right now
we'll have that, and we can you know, have a
base of operations for helping people place that you can

(09:41):
all come, you know, members of this church can come
to uh to to visit and receive the sacraments as needed.
And this, uh this will you know, be available as
soon as as soon as we can get the chapel consecrated,
you know, once we get the stuff moved over, I
expect maybe a few weeks, a couple of weeks to
do that. Holy Week's really what's slowing us down, which

(10:06):
just so you know, there's no vestiges next week or
the week after that, because Holy Week takes a lot
out of us and it takes priority over the show,
and then we take a week off to kind of
decompress from the demands of it. So hopefully I would
say by the third week in three weeks from now,

(10:28):
we should be probably ready to go over there, and
hopefully the internet will be ready. If not, we'll try
doing five G on the cell phone and see how
it works for the consecration mass. Hopefully it will go through.
We'll see, all right, As a little test just in
case the internet's not quite ready. But I don't want
to delay it over that, and I certainly don't want
to sign a contract for twice the price if I

(10:50):
can help it. All Right, enough of that, joining us
tonight for all the way south, because she's not with
us tonight is Jamie Wolf. She is here, not here right?
How you doing tonight, Jamie?

Speaker 5 (11:02):
I'm here, but not in the chair.

Speaker 3 (11:04):
That's right, you're not in the chair. The chair is
very lonely. But Heathcliffe was happy because he was he
was sitting over here earlier.

Speaker 6 (11:09):
Yeah, he has a problem with.

Speaker 3 (11:14):
It's only his chair when you're here, you know. He
doesn't really care about it when it's when you're not
going to be here. But when he sees me starting
to work at the desk, that's when it's like.

Speaker 6 (11:23):
Okay, relationship definitely Greetings from the West Point Lake area
of Georgia.

Speaker 3 (11:29):
Yes, definitely, okay, great, Well, it's glad to have you
with us and also joining us from a strugg we
have father, Chris Yates. How you doing tonight, father? Yeah?

Speaker 7 (11:38):
And good thanks for you know, on your internet things.

Speaker 8 (11:41):
Sometimes you have to wait for the for the rub
of bands to snap there holding the wheel on before
they bring in the whole fix.

Speaker 7 (11:48):
So it sounds like that's what's going on.

Speaker 3 (11:49):
I think that is what's going on. I mean, it
was weird. It was coincidential that it happened during like
right after the storms, then all of a sudden, like
but the Internet never went out during the storms, and
it was fine after the storms, but all of a sudden, I,
you know, went to go do some work and there's
no Internet, and so I looked at the app to see,
you know, what's the problem, and they had a message

(12:10):
that came up that said that you're you're I forget
if they call them. It's it's basically, this unit that
sends the Internet to the entire area was being worked on.
And that's the second time. And it happened right after
they came out for this service call. I think there's
been a problem in this area with with AT and
T for a while and they just didn't want to

(12:31):
recognize it or just didn't notice it. And then when
they the technically.

Speaker 7 (12:34):
Came up a tipping point.

Speaker 8 (12:36):
A tipping point sometimes I think, I guess the days
of are some people don't need the Internet necessarily are over.

Speaker 7 (12:45):
You know, so they've had to grasp that nettle. But
things are fine here.

Speaker 8 (12:49):
I mean, we've got a federal election coming up on
the third of May, and so so the news is
really boring at the moment, especially given that I'm.

Speaker 7 (13:00):
In the middle of it because I worked for an
independent MP.

Speaker 8 (13:02):
And so last night the big debate between the leaders
was on, and my my boss was on a show
on location just before it, and of course that meant
that I could stay to watch the debate live.

Speaker 7 (13:16):
And somebody said, are you going to stay and watch
the debate? I said, no, said why not? And I said,
because I'd rather be at home with my wife.

Speaker 3 (13:26):
I think I'd rather be dead, honestly than.

Speaker 7 (13:34):
I'm not nerding out. I'm not. I'm not one that
nerds out over leadership debates or any of that.

Speaker 8 (13:39):
I've only ever worked for independent MPs and senators, so
it doesn't really flopp my boat watching the uniparty pretend
to argue with each other.

Speaker 3 (13:49):
Yes, of course, of course.

Speaker 9 (13:51):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (13:51):
Well, we're happy that you're here and not too bored
out of your mind. Yeah, it's good, good to have
you and also joining us in Tennessee, we have Brandon
my limb as always. How you doing tonight, Brandon.

Speaker 9 (14:06):
I'm pretty good, a lot better now since I went
ahead and took y'all's advice from last shows, not like
last week or the week before that, and I have
published my book.

Speaker 3 (14:18):
Good, went ahead, got it done.

Speaker 9 (14:22):
I decided that if I kept to editing editing it,
it was gonna take years.

Speaker 3 (14:28):
Yeah, you got to you know what, just like any
it's like any art form, you know, even you know,
oil painting, You'll just constantly keep working at it. Eventually
you have to just let it go. You do have
to sign it, yeah, eventually, it just you know, you
have to say, this is it? But why don't you
tell everybody where they can get it?

Speaker 9 (14:51):
So currently it's only available on Apple Books. I'm trying
to get it on Kindle, but that is a whole
lot to work with because Kendor requires a completely different
file format. Yeah, so I can't trend, I can't export
it from pages to word because words not fully compatible

(15:14):
with it. So it changes up the entire format of
the whole book. So it's it's it's common. It's just
it's going to take a bit.

Speaker 3 (15:22):
I know all about that. That's why I have not
self published my book because I just I don't have
the patience for at the time. I really don't, So
it just kind of sits there in a in a
in a in a word file on my on my
hard drive, collecting dusts. Probably I don't know. I haven't
looked at it in a while, but yeah, maybe one
day I'll get around to it, but not yet, not

(15:44):
for a while, I can tell you that right now. Okay,
so I know that. Uh well, I guess I should
say to everybody out there, thank you for joining us.
Make sure that you like and subscribe and to this
channel on YouTube particularly, that's the important one. TikTok, for
some reason, is still I received an email from the

(16:11):
simulcaster that they are aware that there's a problem where
some people were disconnected from their accounts on TikTok and
not able to stream. They said they were working on it,
but we never got any follow up email, and here
we are several weeks later, and I still can't stream
on on TikTok, which is unfortunate because that's really where

(16:31):
our largest audience was for live. So what we're going
to have to do is just wait, I guess, but
we're streaming everywhere else. So we're on Instagram, We're on Facebook,
Twitch YouTube, Yeah, Facebook, Twitch, and we'll have, of course
the audio only podcast version on Spreaker and of course

(16:54):
anywhere that you get your podcasts. About an hour or
so after the show, it will be available since that
cannot be live anymore through Spreaker. Unfortunately they took away
the live service there, I guess because everybody does a
video version. Now, Instagram's not working. I mean, I'm it's

(17:15):
working on my end. You guys are saying this. I
mean I'm seeing comments and stuff. You sure I'm not
seeing it's it's showing that's working. There's people there. You
might want to check on your your end to see
I am yeah, I thought so. Instagram's there, re uh,

(17:40):
I guess refresh it's it's local to you guys, or
if you can't find it, just refresh. Yes, Brandon's books,
The Devil's Advocate, a comprehensive guide to the history and
evolution of the Satan archetype. So kind of in line
with our show tonight, that's a pretty good time to
release at Brandon. I think it's a you can talk

(18:02):
to another author and maybe we can brainstorm some ideas
about the darkness. All right, let's get started with questions
from the ether. What's our first question?

Speaker 9 (18:14):
So the first question is a quick Google search says
Israel became a nation on May fourteenth, nineteen forty eight.
So what's going on with biblical references to Israel as
a nation such as Judges to twenty, Psalm eighty three four,
et cetera. Or are these references to Israel not as
a nation but as a people group.

Speaker 7 (18:37):
It's a distinction.

Speaker 3 (18:38):
There is a distinction, and in the word nation, there's
very much specifically talking about the people Israel. In a
lot of ways, in the ancient mind, there wasn't the
difference between the country and the people. They kind of
were the same thing. But typically when it's referred to
in this context, at least as is the Jewish theology

(19:01):
is concerned, it's referring to the people. From a Christian standpoint,
though the theology tends to recognize this as as a
manifestation of the Church. So a lot of times when
you read the more esoteric aspects of the Old Testament
talks about the nation Israel, it's really seen in Christian

(19:23):
theology as a foreshadowing for the Church or a precursor
to what would become the Church, because it is the
instrument of salvation before it became the instrument of salvation.
So that's what's really being referred to there, not so
much not talking about the political entity. And it's important

(19:45):
because the political entity is Yeah, it's well because the
secular nation is not what's being described in the Bible,
because I mean, first of all, Israel is a secular government.
It is not the theocracy that existed in ancient times. Okay.
In fact that that that's one of the ultra orthodox

(20:05):
Jewish complaints. They will protest the nation Israel because it
is what they see as a godless nation.

Speaker 4 (20:13):
You know.

Speaker 3 (20:13):
They don't like the fact that that the Temple Mount
is allowed under Israeli law to to basically occupy the
space where the Jewish temples should be. You know, these
are these are these are very interesting political problems out there.

Speaker 8 (20:29):
So but no, I was only going I was on
the draw the connection between the Hebrew world that's used
in the Old Testament, the Kahal, the essentially you know,
the ecclesia which is used in Greek is essentially a continuation. Well,

(20:51):
Christians would say a continuation of this, this idea of
the Kahal, the called out into those called out who
are following Christ. So, in a sense, Church and Israel
are synonyms in in the you know, in the religion
that becomes Christianity.

Speaker 3 (21:11):
Yeah, absolutely, Yeah, So does that answer for your brandon,
I think that was your question.

Speaker 5 (21:19):
That was a quick one.

Speaker 3 (21:20):
That was a quick one.

Speaker 7 (21:21):
I must say it does answer.

Speaker 9 (21:22):
But because I think in earlier parts of the Old Testament,
Israel isn't referred to as Israel, like in Isaiah seven.
I remember exactly what Israel is referred to in that passage.
Let me actually look it up because I knew it,
But I was wondering when.

Speaker 7 (21:42):
The change happened between.

Speaker 3 (21:47):
A form?

Speaker 7 (21:50):
Is that form frame a frame?

Speaker 4 (21:53):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (21:55):
So was that the earliest idea or notion of Israel. Well,
I mean, if you're if you're talking about like the
theocratic Promised Land and the manifest you know, the the
kingship of Israel in the Kingdom, you know, of Israel

(22:17):
in that sense, that should never be conflated with this
modern thing we call Israel today. They're not They're not
the same thing. They're not the same concept at all.
And so what you're seeing in the Old Testament are
is the is the development from this earlier idea. I mean, honestly,

(22:38):
if you won't really want to get technical, the Promised
Land is again the precursor to Israel, and then Israel
becomes a precursor to the Church from a Christian standpoint
of obviously not from a Jewish one. But either way,
regardless of you, if you're looking at it from the
strictly Jewish sensor, if you're looking at it from strictly
the Christian sense, neither the one one are reflections of

(23:03):
of the of the the country Israel that exists right now.

Speaker 7 (23:09):
That is not even seven. It begins by talking, excuse
me about the King of Judah. Yeah, you know so,
so even even.

Speaker 8 (23:18):
Within the even within the Old Testament period, when we're
talking about Israel, it's obviously identified with the people because
we also have Judea some area, you know, so, which
which are geographical areas with their own politics, their own kingship.
So yeah, it's pretty pretty which is why I was

(23:39):
talking about the Kahal, because that's very much more the
spiritual heart of what it means to be an Israelite,
and it's that which Poor is speaking into when he
talks about, you know, God's chosen people coming from the
line of Abraham. That's why he points out that Abraham
was counted righteous before the law existed.

Speaker 7 (24:00):
In other words, Abraham was not a Jew when he
was counted righteous, and so.

Speaker 8 (24:07):
And then being grafted through Christ, who is the fulfillment
of the Israelites, makes the Church the new Israel. And look,
this is this is a fundamental theological difference between many
Protestant churches and Catholic Orthodox churches.

Speaker 7 (24:24):
I mean the sort of Christian Zion this movement is,
I think based on a flawed theology.

Speaker 3 (24:33):
That's not That's not to say that supporting Israel's flawed
political dispensationalism. It's it's just another feather in the cap
for them to be able to justify their end times nonsense.
You know, along with the rapture. It's in the same category,
but it has.

Speaker 8 (24:51):
A Catholic would say, no, the churches is the news.
The Israel is the Church, and the churches Israel. You
know that what Catholics would say. Orthodox would say the same,
but with an added the Jews became Christians, and I
think that I think they are Jews today.

Speaker 7 (25:12):
Not.

Speaker 3 (25:14):
They take it to another level. So there you go. Yeah,
they're not, they're not. They're not the same thing. It's
not referring to that at all. It's not a prophecy
for the secular government. Believe me, it's not because it's
it's a it's a it's a true. Well, it's theocratic

(25:34):
for one thing, but it's also a monarchy and the
other of which is Israel today, you know. So yeah,
very different, two very very different things.

Speaker 9 (25:48):
So this question, it's pretty interesting, might take a little
bit to answer. In the Bible, where it says, if
you have the faith of a mustard seed, you can
say to the mountain move and it will move.

Speaker 3 (26:01):
Is that true?

Speaker 9 (26:02):
Considering myth is more real than reality, and considering that
we have the creative power in us.

Speaker 3 (26:09):
Well, I mean, as as as a Christian, I attest
to the truth of scripture, you know, as a bishop,
that is my obligation. I took a vow to that.
And so yes, everything in Scripture is true. And this
is no different of course, though what's being referred to
here is is a very kind of specific thing, not

(26:32):
in the more general literal sense that Jesus is talking
he's not saying that we have the power to two Well,
just play wizard and just you know, whatever we command,
you know, the universe will just sort of give it
to us. Although that's not terribly far from the truth.
But that's a completely different matter that we would need

(26:54):
to get into. Essentially, the what's being referred to here,
we can we can reference to the parable of the
mustard seed, you know, which happens earlier.

Speaker 9 (27:06):
In in.

Speaker 3 (27:09):
Where it's I think it's Matthew chapter thirteen, where it says,
let me bring it up here. He proposed another parable
to them, saying, the Kingdom of Heaven is like a
grain of mustard seed which a man took and sewed
in his field. It is indeed the least of all seeds,
but when it has grown, it is greater than all

(27:30):
the plants, and it becomes a tree, so much so
that the birds of the air come and dwell in
its branches. It's referring to the faith is that even
the smallest amount of faith changes everything, changes your entire being,
because that is the faith that leads to salvation, and

(27:52):
salvation is what brings us to perfection. Okay, so it
does what Jesus is actually referring to here, is that
we don't need to make any dramatic leaps and bounds
in regards to to that conviction. We just need to
have it. We just need to be able to have it.
And by doing so, we reach a point where we

(28:15):
can align ourselves so perfectly to the will of God.
Because now that faith grows within us and changes us,
and that you know that that our participation allows, you know,
we allow that to happen through our participation. Then then
then at that point anything can happen because now we

(28:35):
are so perfectly aligned to the will of God, we
participate in creation at that divine level. But it's not
saying that, you know, you could you could command things
that out of your own will to make happen, you know.
Nor is it talking about some kind of literal uh,
you know, magical incantation that you know, you just you know,

(28:58):
you use faith to get what you want. That's not
what Jesus is referring to in that sense, and I
think a lot.

Speaker 8 (29:03):
Of people do all that view. It's connected to two
other images that he gives us. One is obviously the
powable of the sower, you know, So the idea is
that the mustard seed of faith can become a great
tree because it lands in the good soil. In other words,
it lands in God. And you know, God can can

(29:26):
perform wonders. You know, for man it's impossible. For God,
all things are possible. So as hopeless as I am,
if I have just a speck of faith in the
true and Living God, he can do great things through me.
But but it's not for my own sense of power
or manipulation. It's for God's purposes because the other image

(29:47):
that he gives us is you know, he says, if
a weak seed.

Speaker 7 (29:54):
Lives, it's just a single seed. But if it dies.

Speaker 8 (29:58):
Then then it can reduce many more. And so the
image is one of we we have to be willing
to die to ourselves. In other words, it's the opposite
of us wanting to manipulate the world around us. You know,
we're dying to God's will, being planted in his soil.
And it's him, it's he that performs the wonders. And so,

(30:19):
you know, and the temptation in life is you know,
Christ enters Jerusalem on the donkey and the crowds are
cheering for him.

Speaker 7 (30:26):
I mean, we remember what they do later in the week, but.

Speaker 8 (30:31):
Him, and you know, the sort of the fall, and
human nature would have us be the donkey. The donkey
thinks that crowds are cheering for him, but they're not.
They're cheering for Jesus, who is riding on the donkey,
and we're the donkey, like you know. And and as
long as we recognize if any great work is done

(30:51):
by God in us, it's for his glory and not ours.
And when we mistake his glory for our for our own,
we cease to be able to do anything worthwhile.

Speaker 3 (31:03):
I think we can also say that being parable and
having a lot of allegory associated with the parables that
Jesus gives us, because you know, we're not talking about
literally multibstered seeds here. He's using it as an analogy
for the kind of faith and what it's capable of doing.
I think we can say the same thing about his
use of the word mountain here, where he's talking about

(31:26):
literally obstacles to get in the way of your salvation.
You can literally move it will commit. You can command
them to move out of your way, and they will.

Speaker 6 (31:35):
Through that faith, I've always thought of it as a
stumbling block yes, right, he's not that you can move
that mountain if you nurture and enjoy your faith.

Speaker 3 (31:44):
Right, He's not talking about an actual, you know, physical mountain.
That would be pointless, and God doesn't really indulge pointless
pursuits like.

Speaker 9 (31:55):
That, because of course, growing up in the Protestant Church,
I don't remember if we got to that whole lot,
but when we would, of course it would be taken literal,
like all of Jesus is parable, just be taken literal
rather than underlying meaning.

Speaker 8 (32:17):
So you can be manipulated, you see, because if you
can't move mountains by your faith, then there's a failing
in you. And so you know, we're going to tell
you two will normally involve you giving us money and
that sort of thing. So I mean, by the way,
there is something smaller than the mustard seed that can
move mountains if you split an atom, and so.

Speaker 3 (32:38):
Where you go, there you go. It could be something
about maybe we was talking about you know, desirable. Yeah,
he's talking about quantum physics, you know, I mean never know.
I mean I would think Jesus would have had some
insight into it that we wouldn't.

Speaker 6 (32:52):
That'll be the next age.

Speaker 3 (32:57):
No, that's a good idea. Though, You're right, I mean,
the bi you split an at him, I mean, you're
you're basically unleashing Pandora's box on the universe. I mean,
it just you know, blows up so well done. Yeah,
so there's a lot of ways to look at it,
but the one way to not look at it is

(33:17):
to take it literally, as he's talking about a physical
mountain that would literally get up and walk away, because
you know, your face says, so that's not what he's saying.
And that's that's really when you think about it, completely
missing the point in so many profound ways that it's
almost somewhere between humorous and sad. You can't help but

(33:39):
laugh at it, but then you want to cry, and
then you want to laugh again. It's it's, it's it's
because it misses the entirety of the message, you know,
and that's where.

Speaker 8 (33:48):
The beauty is. There's also you know, so I've just
made this connection, which you know, I've spoken on the
show before about the argument from contingency. You know of
Thomas Aquinas, So you know, he he's viewing the clouds
forming and vanishing over the Apennine Mountains and he and
he posits that actually, if you could sit there for
long enough, the mountains themselves would have formed and gone away,

(34:11):
you know, I mean proto science.

Speaker 7 (34:13):
Really, he's kind of, you know, the pre eminent geologist.

Speaker 8 (34:19):
But you know, in the sense that God is eternal
and faith in him is sure, steadfast, permanent, that that
faith will see mountains rise and fall.

Speaker 7 (34:31):
As well.

Speaker 3 (34:32):
Yeah, you know, yeah, so it is. I mean, you
could you could look at it that way too, the
eternity of God. But yeah, he's not he's not saying that.
You know, you get the power to do whatever you want.
You know, it's not a genie, you know. I means
you get three wishes, then you you know, your last

(34:52):
wish is to just wish for unlimited wishes, you know.
I mean, it's not like that. But there that's the
best answer I can give you on that one.

Speaker 9 (35:04):
And so our third one is more of an astrological question, Okay,
in general terms, what's to be expected now that Neptune
has entered areas?

Speaker 3 (35:15):
Okay, so you know, this is one of those generational effects,
because Neptune is this very slow moving planet in the
zodiac as it goes through the zodiac. Because it's one
of the furthest ones out there, right, so it has
a larger orbit, takes a lot more time to go
through the sky. And when you're looking at the zodiac,

(35:38):
which is like basically you know, all of the twelve
figures of the zodiac that go around almost as if
it circles the earth right from the part that we
can see above the horizon and then below us. So
where Father Chris is, he sees a different zodiac then

(36:01):
what we see because he's getting the other side, you know,
but it's still there. And when you look at a chart,
what you're looking at is basically the circle is the Earth,
and then you're looking at the sky around. So as
a chart is formed based upon where the planets are
in relation to the sky, specific to your location on

(36:23):
the Earth, and then that becomes your your chart, your
natal chart, or if you're doing transits, it becomes the
transit chart whatever. So Neptune's very slow moving and the
you know when it's entering areas, it's going to be
there for a while. There is some retrograde motion, I
think if I remember correctly, so it will come back

(36:43):
out and then go back in again. Retrograde means it
just looks like it's going the other way, but it's
it's just a perception thing. It's not actually turning around
and going another direction, then turns around and goes again.
Just the way it looks from the Earth. And that's
what matters for astrology, is how it looks. It's it's
a it's completely relative to the viewer on Earth. So

(37:05):
this this configuration essentially, well, let's talk about what Neptune
and areas is. So Aries from a zodiac point of view,
is a fire sign. It's probably the most fiery of
the fire signs. Very outgoing, very aggressive, very very well

(37:25):
high energy is how I would put it. And it
can be just extremely aggressive, high energy. Aries Airyan people
are high energy, sometimes high maintenance because of it. They
can be very enthusiastic some on the on the on
the more dynamic side of of the of the zodiacal sign.

(37:48):
These are the go getters. These are the people that
can get things done. These are people that are fun
to be around. They're the life of the party. They
seem to have unlimited energy to do things. Uh, and
you know they're they're there, they got a thousand things
going on and they're getting it all done. They're just
they're like that, and they like they're very extroverted people.
Typically they like being you know, watched, and they like

(38:12):
being out there and being the center of attention. All
that is what aries is like. Now on the static side,
the darker side of the of the sign, they can
be arrogant, obnoxious, they can be argumentative, they can be fickle.

(38:33):
You know, they're interested in you for a while and
then they move on you get you bore them. They
can get very easily bored. So that's airy. So think
high energy. Okay, then when you put Neptune in areas,
then what that means is that Neptune becomes influenced by
the energy of the sign it's in. So you have
that high energy areas. But then you have Neptune, and

(38:54):
Neptune's kind of an unusual planet in the sense that
it covers all of the incorporeal aspects of reality, predominantly
spirituality and imagination. So when you put ares high energy
in combination with imagination and spirituality, what you get is

(39:15):
a compounding effect where imagination grows and it becomes right
now a time where the world will undergo a dramatic
stage of creativity, it will be easier to draw from.
That's one of the good things that can do. But
at the same time, you know, just like just like

(39:35):
the zodiacal signs, there's dynamic and static properties, and Neptune
has a lot of static properties as well. Neptune can
can suffer from delusions and mental illness can actually manifest
through the Neptune sign or where Neptune happens to be
in the houses. You know, so you can look at

(39:56):
that and see if there's an influence there. And so
what I expect to see again, you're going to have
to ask. I think we have an astrologer on the
next show. You can ask them. They might have a
very different opinion of this than I do. But I'm
not an astrologer, but I do look at these things
from time to time, and I would say that in
my understanding, what we're going to see is an increasing

(40:19):
state of very radical delusional thinking. We've been under this
influence already, you know, as it approaches it influences us.
It's not surprising to me that the last few years
we've seen an increase in the sort I would say
the normalization of delusional thinking, particularly with identity you know,

(40:44):
there was a time where, well there still is. Gender drysphoria,
for example, is a mental illness. It's still something that
can be diagnosed. But we now have a society over
the last few years at least trying to normalize this, okay,
basically saying that it's okay to not accept yourself for

(41:06):
who you are. You've got to accept you know, if
you're not happy with who you are, then you you
can go and become anyone else. And I don't think
that's a healthy message. I'm not even talking about the
political correctness of gender identity and and and sexual identity
and all these other things that we worry so much
about as a as a as a you know, as

(41:29):
a species, which I think gets rather silly after a while.
I would argue, though, that even outside of where you
stand in the political spectrum as to whether or not
you think that this is okay or not, I would
say that it's never healthy ever to a reject reality
even if you don't like it, and and b to

(41:53):
not accept yourself for who you are, even when you
don't like who you are. You know, if you don't
like who you are, make yourself better, but don't pretend
you're someone else. And that's delusional thinking, which I think
was definitely precipitated by the coming of this configuration with
Neptune coming into areas, because that's the kind of thing
that it can do. So you know, we're seeing it

(42:16):
also in politics, you know, a lot of radical delusional thinking.
Think about fake news, right, that's a big topic that
came into play during the COVID era, which is again
the precursor to this energy coming. And so you know,
you have you know, people claiming that various things, you know,
the ridiculousness of wearing masks everywhere like that was going

(42:36):
to save the planet, you know, and and of course
all the fear response that came with that. This is
all things that can be manufactured under Neptune. When you
bring aries into it, it just gets out of control.
Because areas is such a multitasker, it can really get
out there and do all sorts of radical things with

(42:57):
that energy. And when you put Neptune there, Honestly, the
only thing that tempers aries is a saturn, you know,
That's the only thing that can Otherwise Areas just gets
out of control, and Neptune doesn't put any boundaries in
place because it doesn't want any boundaries itself. So they
kind of just run with each other into into the

(43:18):
night and become this this this this almost mad doctor
like experiment together where anything can happen. And we've seen
that in in like I said, and we see it
in the politics right now. We see it in in
the fake news stories and the yellow journalism that's now
become normalized, just like gender identity, normalizing things that are

(43:41):
not healthy. You know, this is very problematic, uh, and
it doesn't have to go that way. It could have
gone dynamic, but we're not a real dynamic species right now.
We're very much connected to the static side of things.
So this becomes where you start to see the problematic

(44:03):
parts because you know, we're not slaves to astrology, we're
not slaves to the movement of the planets. These things
just show us what the the archetypes are that are present,
and you know, we if we allow ourselves to be
seduced by them, well, this is what results. If we
actually grow a brain and use it, then you know what,

(44:24):
we can tell it how it's going to go. It
didn't have to go this way, it's just we want
it to go this way. We love fear. Nothing makes
I mean, look, I'm my actual job, you know, if
we're talking about jobs in terms of something that makes
you money, you know, is basically investing, you know. And

(44:46):
of course the predominant investment that I that I have
made is in the family business. But I also do
more conventional investing as well on the side. And if
you're an investor, then you probably know what the markets
have been like these last couple of weeks. It's been nightmarish.
And none of this had to happen, you know. It's

(45:07):
all fear based emotionalism, is what it is. It has
nothing to do with the fundamentals of these companies, it
has nothing to do with the actual money that's being
circulated around. It's all based upon how people feel. And
so when people are afraid, they pull money out of votes. Yeah,
well it's true, it does.

Speaker 7 (45:27):
And Timothy wins votes. You know, I mean, what what
is the great sum of soul? Quote?

Speaker 8 (45:32):
I think his in his major book he said, you know,
the first rule of economics is scarcity.

Speaker 7 (45:38):
The first rule of politics is to ignore the first rule.

Speaker 3 (45:41):
There you go, it's true, it is true, and and
nowhere will you see delusional processes or delusional thinking. Then
in politics, it's all eyes.

Speaker 7 (45:54):
An election cycle now, and all we've got is fear. Oh,
if you vote for harhim, healthcare is going to be finished. Yeah,
you know it's it's garbage, of course, but of course, yeah,
you know it's but that that's that's what works well.

Speaker 3 (46:08):
I tell people about Trump campaigns, I tell I tell
my I told my students last week about Trump, and
it's like, you know, I'm one of the few people
I know. A few of my students feel the same way.
I know Jamie does. We've talked about it. You know,
I'm neutral on Trump. I don't really hate him. I
don't really like him. He's not my cup of tea.

Speaker 7 (46:29):
But you know the same way.

Speaker 3 (46:31):
I feel exactly the same way. Yeah, I mean, he's
just he I'm a pragmatist. I agree with some of
the things he says. I disagree with a lot of
the things he says. You know, it's like anybody else
in the world. That's how I feel about anybody. I
disagree with them on some things, and I agree with
them on some things.

Speaker 8 (46:46):
The same thing with my wife, Because do you think
that's because we're only a disciple of one person.

Speaker 3 (46:51):
I mean, it could very well be.

Speaker 7 (46:52):
I think I think that makes a massive difference. I
think it does, maybe a disciple of Jesus Christ. You're
not looking for a messire.

Speaker 3 (46:57):
In politics found very very good, you know, that's a
very no, you're not. But I mean, but my whole
thing is that it's like I you know, I I
everybody agrees with some things and disagrees with some things
with everybody. That's normal. That's natural. Like I said, even
with my own wife. I mean, if we all agreed
on everything, I mean, that would be actually quite boring,

(47:19):
wouldn't it, And we wouldn't be very boring? It would,
and honestly it would. It would stifle the talents, the
individual talents that each one of us brings to the
relationship where she can do things that better than I can,
and I could do things better than she can, and
we can kind of balance out those weaknesses together. I mean,
that's how this works. But with Donald Trump, I mean,
I don't love them, I don't hate them, But what
I see out there in the world are people who

(47:41):
love them far too much and people who hate them
far too much. And that's the problem, you know, you know,
be neutral, Be neutral in your approach and application of
these ideas and these thoughts, but do not indulge in
fantasies that are toxic and bring them into reality. Be

(48:03):
able to distinguish the difference. Which is a very good question.

Speaker 7 (48:07):
For worshiping false idols.

Speaker 3 (48:09):
Yes, because it is essentially it is a false idol.

Speaker 7 (48:14):
It is must say, how did you say it? Bishop
walk the middle Path?

Speaker 3 (48:17):
Middle Path? Well, it's not me that SI's Buddha that
said that one. But I I just I just continue.
The message is a good message. And Jesus does it too.
Jesus does it too?

Speaker 4 (48:28):
I mean, you know, yeah American.

Speaker 3 (48:33):
Well, I mean what I like about the story of
Sidhartha because it is so applicable to the extremes that
we see today. What I love about Sidhartha is that
the idea that he tried extremes, he came from an extreme.
He lived a life of absolute perfection, not knowing anything

(48:53):
about disease and death. Right, I didn't think that that
even happened because he was sheltered from it. And so
when he finally realize that death is the inevitability of
all things, then then he then he took on almost
a nihilistic approach, like thinking, well, then nothing matters. I'm
just going to I'm just going to give myself over
to aestheticism and see if I can find some reason

(49:17):
or purpose to all of this suffering. And and that
didn't work either. He nearly killed himself, not not not intentionally,
just by virtue of starvation and and and not taking
care of himself through his aesthetic you know, the aesthetic pursuits.
And so he realized that that's not going to work either.
The only way to do is to be practical and pragmatic,

(49:39):
as Father Chris just said, to be able to approach
things with a level head. It's pure logic. The beauty
of Buddhism is that it is the most logical of
all of all religions. It gives us, I would say,

(50:00):
the most practical concept because it's not a religion. It
has religious components that people have attached them because just
like any other religion or any other belief system, it
adopts or the the the religious ideologies that exist in
a particular region become adopted into it. But overall, it's

(50:23):
a philosophy. It's not really a religion. And I think
That's what makes it, I think, more neutral and more accessible.
Even in a secular context, the principles can be applied.
Evin in a Christians context, the principles can be applied.
You don't need to get into the doctrines of it.
If you don't want to like reincarnation, it's that's irrelevant.

(50:44):
If you believe in reincarnation, reincarnation great, If you don't,
it doesn't prevent you from being able to utilize the
teaching of Sidhartha any differently. So I think middle way
is the way to go, particularly when it applies to politics.
It's a lesson that this country could definite, definitely learn
to to to to to adopt, and they'd be happier

(51:06):
if they did.

Speaker 8 (51:07):
I think, actually, from the outside looking in, you Americans
are much more middle way than you think you are.
I mean, you know, the way people argue and debate
with each other might not be middle way, but you
generally end up with a position where you have a
president of one party and at least one of the
other houses are not of that party, you know, I mean,

(51:28):
I know, at the moment, technically Republicans have got all
three branches, but not really.

Speaker 7 (51:34):
I think if Americans are far more moderate than they
think they are. Well, there's there's my radical there's my
radical thing to say.

Speaker 3 (51:42):
I don't I don't, I don't know.

Speaker 4 (51:43):
We don't debate anymore.

Speaker 3 (51:45):
I don't disagree. I don't disagree. But I think what
I think was going on here honestly is is. But
I really think the majority of the divisiveness is manipulation
with social media, your butts, I really do. I'm not
so sure.

Speaker 7 (52:04):
In time it wasn't like that.

Speaker 8 (52:05):
It was not before were a thing, you know, but
whether it was Reagan or Clinton, you know, so on
both sides there was a goodwill.

Speaker 7 (52:18):
People are fundamentally patriotic and you know, support each other.

Speaker 8 (52:25):
I think you're probably right, and you know, I will
tell you possible to know how much that's infected things.

Speaker 3 (52:30):
I will tell you that I don't know too many
people today who who would have the position where they like, Oh,
I'm voting, I'm voting for the Democrat this this this
race because I like like what they stand for better.
But and then then another race comes on, so I'm
going with the Republican this time. That was normal fifty

(52:54):
years ago.

Speaker 7 (52:56):
To be complete swing voters.

Speaker 10 (52:58):
By the way, I.

Speaker 3 (52:58):
Honestly, you know, right, I mean, I mean the people
used to vote more for the person. Now they vote
for the ideology because they're so obsessed with identity today,
and the identity is all fabricated. This is the beautiful
lesson of Buddhism as well, is how we build these
artificial concepts for ourselves and become our reality. And therefore

(53:23):
politics is not immune. It's the fact it's the best
expression of how it comes about. And so because we're
so obsessed, we're very self centered. It's really a type
of egocentrism, is what it is. We're so obsessed with
identity and forging identity and building identity and creating ideologies
to prove it, to prove that we exist, to prove
that this ego exists. That you know, we've we've completely

(53:48):
been absorbed by it instead of seeing ourselves as as
observers and and and and and and and and these
are concepts to participate in in in a proportionate way.
And that's how I remember having conversations with my grandfather.
And my grandfather was born, and I think Tracy and
I were looking at nineteen eleven. I think my grandfather,

(54:11):
I think it was nineteen eleven my grandfather was born,
and I remember having a lot of conversations with him
when I was younger and he was still alive about politics,
and you know he was he pretty much voted Democrat
most of the time. This was Massachusetts, it's a very
Democrat state even back then. But he loved Nixon. He

(54:33):
loved Nixon. He thought Nixon was a great president. You
would never see that kind of of of of thought today.
It's it's all ideological, but.

Speaker 7 (54:43):
It might still be there. You might not see it because,
like you said.

Speaker 3 (54:46):
Well they're not talking. Maybe I think what it is, well,
I think what it is is that the people that
actually do have that, they stay quiet because they don't
want conflict. So maybe they well they are all that.
Maybe maybe they need to get more online, Maybe they
need to get noisier to shut up the the the
irritating people. That might be the way to fix this.

(55:07):
I don't know. I don't know, but anyway, that's what
neptune and aries as an astrological configuration is bringing to
the table. So we're going to have several at least
a decade more of this, and it's I don't foresee
it getting better because I don't see people taking I know, right,

(55:29):
I don't see people taking the dynamic side of of
of neptune and ereies. I see them taking.

Speaker 8 (55:35):
The positive outcome of this is that people will stop
looking to politicians.

Speaker 7 (55:38):
And sports stars to be their heroes. That would be
a very very good outcome.

Speaker 3 (55:42):
But do you think that that's the direction we're going though?
I don't think so.

Speaker 7 (55:46):
I don't know. I don't know.

Speaker 8 (55:48):
I think I think the cynicystem towards politics and politicians
might lead people to towards something else, looking for value
systems elsewhere.

Speaker 3 (56:01):
I hope so. I hope so, because they're not going
to find what if they're looking for savers, you're not
going to find in politics. I mean you might find damnation.

Speaker 11 (56:08):
Yeah.

Speaker 8 (56:11):
Quote to quote, my my favorite one of my favorite
football is Roy Keane, former captain of Manchester United.

Speaker 7 (56:16):
If you want loyalty by a dog.

Speaker 3 (56:18):
Yeah, that was Gordon Guardian Gheko said that on Wall
Street too. It's true, it is true. Okay, So Brandon,
I hope does that answer the question?

Speaker 7 (56:33):
That's just a question.

Speaker 3 (56:34):
Yeah, just that's the question, right, loads of what he
didn't want answers to. Yeah, Well, there's always going to be.

Speaker 1 (56:42):
It is.

Speaker 12 (56:42):
It is.

Speaker 3 (56:43):
We're going to give you an answer, and our answer
and everybody else's answers everybody else's. You know, we try,
we try to we try to be you know, pragmatic
in middle way here. I think we did a pretty
good job of it, you know, I think we're very practical. Yeah,
we're very practical. That's thank God for YouTube. You know,
it's the true it's it's it's if if. It's almost

(57:06):
almost a very libertarian concept when you think about it,
that you can just get out there and uh and
and and and and and have a show like this
and not have to worry about, you know, the dynamic
of what your network says, or you know what the
CEO of of of your production companies it wants, uh,
you know, what your advertisers wants.

Speaker 7 (57:26):
You know.

Speaker 3 (57:26):
That's why I don't want advertisers here. I want to
be able to say what I want to say. I
want to say it the way I want to say it,
and I want anyone telling me that I can't do
that or they're going to withdraw their sponsorship. Well too bad.
You know, Now the church sponsors this show, and I
control the church so you know, there's nothing that anyone
can do about it, and that's the best way, that's
the best show, honestly, because we don't have any kind
of boundaries or restrictions in that regard. Anyway, We're going

(57:49):
to take our first break here. When we come back here,
we'll be talking with our brand new guest, Beth Castredale,
about her fascinating book and the horror genre. What led
to this inspiration? Don't go away?

Speaker 2 (59:03):
Yes answer, I should buy my shot.

Speaker 11 (59:28):
I sh shot my shot. I shot stogies, I came
to star shots are stylis, came surges jobs.

Speaker 10 (59:48):
No flame sometimes jokes shot flame jokes, fimes jobs, shoot fas.

Speaker 11 (01:00:16):
It's I'm some.

Speaker 13 (01:01:16):
Just like the straight obviously distance like a fine blast.
Can't be afraid to leave this and we got this
fund don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:01:31):
Same will.

Speaker 4 (01:01:38):
Go just like as.

Speaker 1 (01:01:43):
We gonna already.

Speaker 11 (01:01:46):
So we got already.

Speaker 13 (01:01:51):
Waiting just like expected as brigan as in a magistan

(01:02:44):
cancer magnum. You know there's no for time, no cancer magnin.

Speaker 1 (01:03:02):
J just like the not we got.

Speaker 2 (01:03:09):
We got any.

Speaker 1 (01:03:13):
Way, do not already not awe not agree way, do

(01:04:47):
not AGREEA.

Speaker 3 (01:05:30):
Welcome back everyone to vestiges after Dark. We're getting ready
now to start tonight's topic on the horror genre and
exploring this with author Beth castor Dale in her book
The Inhabitants. I think we're going to have a really
good time talking about the various archetypes associated with us.
I know a lot of you are interested in this,

(01:05:52):
and paranormal, you know, kind of goes hand in hand
with it. So we've got a great night ahead. Don't
go away.

Speaker 1 (01:06:00):
You are not a queens.

Speaker 3 (01:07:12):
Okay, everybody get ready for this because I think, well,
I mean, this is going to be a topic and
a discovery, a moment of discovery like no other, because
we have with us tonight brand new guest Beth Castterdale,
who is an award winning novelist whose fascination with airy
storytelling began in childhood. She's the author of four novels,

(01:07:33):
including her latest The Inhabitants, which won the Horror category
at the twenty twenty four Best Book Awards sponsored by
American Book Fest. Her second novel, In This Ground, earned
recognition as a shortlist finalist for the William Faulkner William
Wisdom Creative Writing Award, and her debut Marion Hatley was

(01:07:55):
a finalist for the Nielsen Prize for a first novel.
Beyond her fiction, best stories and essays have appeared in
publications such as Crime Reads, Ours, Medica, and Writing and Wellness.
Known for her ability to blend emotional depth and haunting atmosphere,
Beth continues to craft stories that unsettle, engage, and resonate

(01:08:19):
with readers long after the final page. Let us welcome
Beth to the show. How are you doing tonight?

Speaker 4 (01:08:26):
Beth great, I'm doing great. Thanks so much for hosting man.
Thank you for that very kind and generous introduction.

Speaker 5 (01:08:33):
I appreciate it.

Speaker 3 (01:08:33):
I appreciate that too. Yeah, thank you for being with us.
I'm going to raise the screen here a little bit
here because you're a little bit too low on my screen,
so I'm going to change this. How's that okay? So yeah,
I mean, we're happy to have you, and I'm really
excited to talk about this topic. You know, we've had
some actors on the show from the genre, the horror genre.

(01:08:56):
I actually worked on Conjuring three and got to talk
with a lot of the cast and crew and their
experiences with horror from the production side of it. But
you're from the storytelling side. This is where it all
really happens. And I was looking. I haven't read your book,
but I read a synopsis about it, and it sounds

(01:09:18):
like it's right up there with some of my favorite movies,
like the Others, and and you know, it's just like
almost like a classic haunted house but with a twists.
So why don't you, I guess, give us a little
bit of background about the inhabitants and what inspired you
to write this.

Speaker 5 (01:09:35):
I just want to say, first of.

Speaker 4 (01:09:36):
All, when you mentioned the Others, I was just thinking
about that movie Tonight.

Speaker 5 (01:09:39):
It's so funny.

Speaker 4 (01:09:40):
I just thought about how haunted I was by that
film and the interior, the dark interiors and sort of
the idea of what's what's on either side of the bail?

Speaker 3 (01:09:49):
You know that?

Speaker 4 (01:09:49):
And so I love that movie.

Speaker 5 (01:09:51):
So we're in the same groove talking about that.

Speaker 3 (01:09:54):
I mean, it's a fantastic one. I mean, it's just
I didn't see it coming, honestly, And I usually can
tell you now, usually horror films are transparent enough that
you can kind of predict them. That one really took
me for a ride. The whole idea of I mean,
I guess it's been out for long enough that we
can talk about the twist. But uh, there's the whole
idea that that the people that felt that they were

(01:10:14):
haunted were the ones haunting. So it's just so I
thought that was just so brilliant.

Speaker 4 (01:10:18):
Yeah. I didn't see that one coming either, And I
just it was so heartbreaking the way that it dealt
with grief, you know, because I feel like like just
like set it away into my book, like it definitely
a lot of the characters in my book are grieving
and they almost they almost want to see ghosts and don't.
But then you know, that ends up, you know, at
least to a couple of the characters that ends up
manifesting that way. But just you know, kind of the

(01:10:40):
nugget of the story is that this artist and her
young daughter move into this house that she's inherited from
a great aunt who she never really knew, and but she,
you know, she really she's kind of struggling financially, so
she moves into this house and it was built by
our nineteenth century architect whose creations were said to influence
them supposedly in beneficial ways. And she goes into this

(01:11:03):
house and all kinds of weird things start happening, and
she's not quite sure if it's the house or something's
going on with her. And then there's also kind of
a housekeeper figure who's kind of I see her as
like kind of a bridge between the house, the mysteries
of the house, and the main character. Like she's sort
of this shadowy figure who knows it was more than

(01:11:24):
she kind of reveals at first. So there's kind of
different things going on, But the house, I definitely say,
like the house is a main character, is one of
the main characters of.

Speaker 5 (01:11:32):
The story for sure.

Speaker 3 (01:11:33):
Well that's interesting, yeah, and I guess that would make
sense for a for a horror film or a haunted
house haunted house story. Rather, I should say, whether it
be a film or a book, that the house is
sort of one of the main characters. When you think
about it, it sounds though that this has a very
psychological component to it too, which in my opinion, is

(01:11:57):
what makes the horror genre great. If it's just supernatural,
in your face monsters, that kind of feels rather cheap
and supervisial. I prefer there to be something going on,
Like you said, with the others, it's like there was
an emotional depth there. There was grief there that was
sort of the catalyst for the experiences, and the supernatural

(01:12:19):
aspects were basically secondary. They were just plot devices to
get you to these realizations. It sounds like that's what's
happening here with the Inhabitants.

Speaker 5 (01:12:29):
Yeah, I mean definitely.

Speaker 4 (01:12:30):
I think it's just to echo what you said, Like,
I'm so down with the thing of like I really
the psychological elements of a story really or what engaged
to be the most I mean, the whole thing with
like the job scares and blood and guts stuff.

Speaker 11 (01:12:42):
I don't like that.

Speaker 4 (01:12:42):
I mean I really like when it helps us even
reflect upon in mind and minded to our own reactions
to things emotionally and psychologically. And I think, like just
with the theme of the Inhabitants with grief, like that's
something that's going on in multiple dimensions to my novel,
Like the main character is grieving a couple of losses,
and then actually some of the other ruly entities are

(01:13:06):
dealing with grief too. As strange as that may sound,
like how can a dead someone who's dead have grief
while they do and you know and gethers that actually
happened too so it kind of is dealing with that
very human emotion that we all go through. You know,
if we live long enough and we're lucky enough to
love people, we're going to suffer with grief, right, So.

Speaker 3 (01:13:27):
It's part of the human experience, and I think I
would actually argue an essential part of the human experience.
We can get too lost in the minutia that sometimes
it takes an emotional jolt to bring us back to
realizing what's important. Unfortunately, if we could be more mindful,
maybe that would not have to be the case. But

(01:13:49):
for most people, I think the meaning of life actually
comes from understanding what it means to lose that life.
So horror kind of gives us, I think, insight into that.
So there's the psychological component, but there's also the fear component.
So how do you how do you how do you

(01:14:09):
balance those with the inhabitants, because that's really I think
the perfect recipe for a horror story, in my opinion,
is you have to have you have to have the psychological,
you have to have suspense, and then you have to
have fear. You know, there has to be a way
to feel that fear, not just like you know, jump scare,
I'm not talking jump scarre obviously with a with a novel,

(01:14:31):
that's harder to do. But you know, there has to
be something that draws you into it and makes you
feel the terror that the characters are experiencing. So how
does that how do you work that for for for
the inhabitants, Yeah, I think a.

Speaker 5 (01:14:47):
Lot of you know, it happens on a few different levels.

Speaker 4 (01:14:50):
One of the things I'd say is that part of
the fear is what's happening not with the spirit world
but with the human world. I mean that the the
protagonist is dealing she without trying to get you know,
giving too much away, that there ends up being a
very very living and breathing person. It turns out to
be very dangerous, and some of the the spirit world

(01:15:14):
that she encounters is sort of you know, she's kind
of uh, it seems scary at first, but I feel
like these the spiritual and if things are almost more
in tune with what's going on in her psychologically, and
it's more on her side in a certain way than
than the real world dark scary stuff is so and
I kind of like that idea. I mean, I just

(01:15:34):
different ghost stories I hear for people I mean the
classic ghost stories, the ghost is scary and out to
get you. But I think like there's also the idea
that sometimes sometimes ghosts are you know, I think, especially
in a house that's been around for a while, that
accumulates lives and and you know, experiences, that sometimes those
are kind of areas of wisdom.

Speaker 5 (01:15:56):
For lack of a better word. And I think that
the fear.

Speaker 4 (01:16:01):
I think even one of the characters in my book
actually says something like, I think we have more to
fear from the living, and I would try to.

Speaker 5 (01:16:08):
Play up a bit in the book.

Speaker 3 (01:16:10):
That's brilliant. I actually use I've said that I'm an
exorcist when I'm not doing this show, and well, like Jimmy,
actually I'm a bishop when I'm not doing this show.
But part of my job as a bishop and what
sort of brought me into I guess you could say
the spotlight was not being a bishop, because nobody really
cares about that. But extorcism people do care about because

(01:16:31):
it's scary, it's it's fascinating, you know, it's suspenseful, and
it's it's outside of the ordinary range of most people's
realm of experience, particularly Catholic extorcism, which is more dramatic
and better storytelling. You know, that's why you never see
like some random extrescist who's like a baptist or something

(01:16:53):
in a movie. It's always a Catholic, right, because it
just makes for better storytelling. So will I will say,
you know, people always asking me, are you afraid of
the demons?

Speaker 4 (01:17:02):
Are you?

Speaker 2 (01:17:02):
Are you?

Speaker 3 (01:17:03):
Are you?

Speaker 7 (01:17:03):
You know?

Speaker 4 (01:17:04):
It is it?

Speaker 3 (01:17:05):
Is it scary to you to go into a haunted
house and deal with this? And I said, you know, no,
it's not not even a little bit. But I said,
if I if I feel any unease or anxiety at all,
it's it's it's it's people. It's the people I might
have to deal with when I go, you know, because
they're scary. People are scary. You know, the human mind

(01:17:25):
can be very frightening. Anybody that has fallen asleep at
night and had a nightmare, you sometimes wonder how did
that come out of me? You know that all comes
it spawns out of our out of all of our
repressed emotions and everything that just sort of gets built
into a story that's told and will terrify you. If
the nightmare is really good at it, I mean I've

(01:17:46):
had a few doozies in my life. I'm sure any
everybody listening has. I'm sure you have.

Speaker 7 (01:17:51):
So I like that.

Speaker 3 (01:17:53):
I like the idea because people are really, I think
the true horror. You know, people are the true demons.
And in my es when I'm when I'm when I'm
performing extorcism, I think it's common for people from the
outside looking in to think that there's all these supernatural
creatures that I'm expelling to the pits of hell, and
they're they're worried about it because they're like, well, could

(01:18:14):
they could they leave that person and enter into you?
Could they? Probably because of the movie The Extorist shows that,
And I'm like, no, that's what I'm really expelling is
is very toxic, very sick elements of the human psyche.
I'm removing archetypes from them. That's what's being cast out,
and that's being eradicated in the process. Once you understand

(01:18:37):
it's a psychological process that's using incorporeal tools to do it,
then it starts to make more sense. But it's it's
really so far out there. But I would imagine doing
writing a book, writing a story that's dark and frightening,
touches on some of these repressed aspects of your own psyche.

(01:18:58):
So h and do you find that you're drawing out
of your own fears and you write this? Is that what?
Because they say writers need to write what they know,
they say the best writers write what they know. So
is there something about your own life that you've put
into this story?

Speaker 4 (01:19:12):
Yeah, it's funny. I always think about this with my writing,
and I feel like I hardly ever base anything on
my actual real life. But that said, there's no way
I'm not minding all of my experiences and fears and everything.
So I would say that very you know, in a
sense of my personal thoughts and experiences, Like I always

(01:19:33):
just I find any space that's been lived in for
a long time, especially old houses, inherently fascinating.

Speaker 5 (01:19:40):
So I think that that's what drew me.

Speaker 4 (01:19:43):
I mean, even when I was a little girl, I
lived in like a fairly like a modernist suburban home.

Speaker 5 (01:19:47):
And I don't know, even from when.

Speaker 4 (01:19:48):
I was just a small girl, I thought I want
to live in an old house. And I don't know
what was driving that, but I feel like the older
I got, I thought, it's because I just feel like
there's all these layers of said experiences, and so I
thought the things that I that this book really tapped
into was that. And I thought, so, what can I
make of that? Like, what would it be to really

(01:20:08):
tap into that in terms of fiction? And I thought, well,
why don't I have the main character as an artist,
so she's really visually and sensorily in tune to spaces,
and you know, she has that kind of.

Speaker 5 (01:20:23):
Ability to see in these different ways that she's very.

Speaker 4 (01:20:26):
Sensitive to in this home. And then I thought, well,
why don't I also have an architect who was really
bent on having you know, it looks like a Victorian
home in a lot of ways, but there's a lot
of things going on that kind of he can mold
people who live there psychologically in a way in a
way that he hopes is beneficial, but that might be
might be a little bit off the hinges every now

(01:20:47):
and then. So I think the whole basis, I hope,
I hope I'm answering your question, But I think the
whole basis is that space at home and architecture and
lived experience in a home is kind of what I
was really tapping into.

Speaker 3 (01:21:00):
Well, there is definitely in my own work, you know,
doing what I do, and you know, I've been in
numerous haunted locations and experienced numerous hauntings throughout both my
life and the work that I do. Coming into I mean, basically,
most of the time when people contact me because they
have a spiritual problem, they're what what what? What really

(01:21:22):
ends up being the issue is some kind of disturbance
in the environment more so than what they're really you know,
sometimes it's attached to them, but a lot of times
it's it's it's environmental that becomes sort of an attachment
to them, and there is sort of a psychotrosch like
a psychometry is the word I'm looking for for the

(01:21:44):
that that gets embedded into the walls of a home,
particularly an old home. It seems to collect the memories
that happen. They're the traumas, particularly for hauntings or at
least at least malevolent hauntings that people experience. The traumas
get collect into the structure. Some people say it's the

(01:22:04):
wood that would absorbs energy, but I think it's really
just I think it's just the location itself, and a
lot of things that people refer to as ghosts are
really manifestations of those memories that sort of maybe at
some kind of quantum mechanical level or some kind of
theoretical physics level, sort of can be brought through our

(01:22:26):
consciousness to witness and it becomes almost like a repetition.
You see the events over again. A lot of hauntings
are described that way. So have you ever in your life?
Have you ever experienced a haunting or lived in a
haunted location?

Speaker 4 (01:22:44):
I had one weird I mean, it's funny people have asked,
so you must have experienced a lot of ghostly things,
And there's only really one thing that really sticks out
of my mind. And it was years ago when I
was living on living and working on Cape Cod and
I happen to be in this attached unit to you know,
they call him, I guess the old term his mother
in law apartments on the back of a house near

(01:23:06):
the beach, and it was such a lovely place. I
could get hear in the ocean at night, it was
very close to the shore, and I just loved it
and it was a charming little place. But there were
there was one time when I left for work and
my landlord was very very careful about saying whenever there
were going to be workers there, they would always let
me know. No one was admitted into the premises without

(01:23:28):
my knowledge and permission in advance.

Speaker 5 (01:23:30):
And one time I came home.

Speaker 4 (01:23:33):
From work and this was like in May or June.
It was pretty warm, and the thermostat was turned all
the way up. The house was just burning hot. And
then the all the casement windows upstairs were wide open,
and I thought this is weird. And I thought, I mean,
I thought, could the window blown out them open? And
not really, they had that really tight seal lock where you.

Speaker 5 (01:23:51):
Couldn't just the windes couldn't come.

Speaker 4 (01:23:52):
And you know, my Landlillder actually he was a very
nice man, and he actually asked me the next day,
He goes, do you mind keeping the windows closed when
you're going? And I said sure, And I was too
embarrassed to say, like I didn't do it, you know
what I mean? Like I thought, like the guy's going
to think I'm losing it if I tell them what happened.
And then but then it had like I thought, whatever,
this is just a fluke thing. And then like a

(01:24:13):
couple weeks later it happened again, and I thought, I
don't know, I don't know what this is or.

Speaker 5 (01:24:17):
What's going on.

Speaker 4 (01:24:18):
I mean, I know that the landlord's daughter had lived
in the place before me, and I know she died
very prematurely, I think in her thirty so I didn't
know if it had something to do with that.

Speaker 5 (01:24:29):
I was at a complete loss. So I don't know.
I don't know what to make of it.

Speaker 4 (01:24:32):
But that's probably the weirdest thing that's ever happened to
me personally.

Speaker 3 (01:24:35):
Yeah, yeah, well, I don't.

Speaker 4 (01:24:37):
Know if you have any thoughts about what.

Speaker 3 (01:24:38):
My freg I mean, it could it could be so
many things, honestly, but I mean, if a person dies unexpectedly,
that almost always leads in our experience, to some kind
of uh well, I mean, I guess in the more
in the more common sense, an unfinished business type of haunting.

(01:25:00):
What it really seems to be, in my metaphysical opinion,
is that when you doubt, when you're not prepared to
die and you don't you know, you weren't really ready
for it, then it then you don't necessarily know what happens,
kind of like the the the others, you don't really
know what happened, and then what you start to live
in that moment, your your range of experience at that

(01:25:23):
point becomes just hyper fixated on the trauma that led
to it. So if it's an unexpected death, and that's
what it is. If it's I if it's a murder,
for example, which is a big one for for hauntings,
it's it's the trauma and the shock and the horror
of being murdered, and that gets sort of built into

(01:25:45):
the the the the dying and death experience for that person,
and that's what needs to be released. It's not so
much that you're you know, when they say ghosts need
to cross over and you have these mediums come in,
they're going, I'm gonna some over. What they're really doing
is they're removing, or what they should be doing is
removing the trauma so that once the trauma's gone, then

(01:26:08):
there's nothing that anchors them here. And that is, at
least metaphysically, the best way I can describe it from
experiencing it myself and seeing how we actually go about
ending these hauntings, and we're actually quite good at it.
We're very successful at getting that done. But you know,
when I was working I came to work on the

(01:26:32):
conjuring three set because the previous movies had had disturbances
that were related to very well, I would I would say,
very uncomfortable spiritual, supernatural experiences, haunting like experiences that happened
on set to some of the actors, some of the cast.

(01:26:54):
And so it became a tradition that every Conjuring movie
they do, they will bring in a priest to bless
the set and the crew for those who wanted just
so that they can hopefully get through it without having
any of those things happen, like the Annabel Doll. You're
familiar with the Conjuring series. Okay, so the Annabel Doll,

(01:27:19):
you know, the whole movie. It had its own spin
off and then it was of course in one of
the films, uh, the Annibal. The Annabel Doll you know,
can move around, right, that's the true story of a legend,
true story behind it, but also the story that's being
told in the in the in the movie, and the
actors would find that the prop doll, when they had

(01:27:41):
several of them, would would walk around and they would
end up in different places that nobody had been and
camera's on and and like you could see like movement
just off camera, but there wasn't really anybody there, and
then they'd go back in there and they find the
doll in another location. And I wanted to know, how

(01:28:01):
is this possible? Because this is not the actual Annabelle doll,
you know, the Annabelle Dell's a raggedy ann you know,
the one in the movie. Is like, this is kind
of almost like this antique kind of looking doll. And
they want to know, how is that possible? And I
and I said, well, it's because we animate it with
our with our fear and expectations and everything else. So

(01:28:22):
when you're engaging archetypes as an actor, you know, when
you're telling a story and you're bringing it to life,
you're literally injecting life into all of the elements, including
the props, and they start to take on the very
physical characteristics of whatever it is. And if you're doing
it well, if you're doing it right, if you're telling

(01:28:42):
a really good story and you're making a really good movie,
which I would say The Conjuring is an excellent expression
of horror, then then you can actually make life happen.
You can actually because the universe doesn't know the difference
between fiction and nonfiction. It just knows is what you
know and if it's real for the actor, and the

(01:29:03):
true method actor would make it as if it's real, right,
then it becomes real because we say it's real. So
do you did you find when you're writing these stories
that that you start to maybe have perceptions or experiences
that sort of relate synchronistically or serendipitously to what you're writing.
Do you find that it sort of brings some of

(01:29:25):
that life into your normal waking consciousness.

Speaker 5 (01:29:30):
You know, it's funny.

Speaker 4 (01:29:30):
I'd have to say it all happens in my head
and on the page when I'm writing, and that's that
is very That is enough for me, because.

Speaker 3 (01:29:38):
Really that's right.

Speaker 4 (01:29:40):
I don't mean that in a derogatory sense of like
I would totally welcome if, you know, experiences came into
my actual liberty world, that would be totally fine. But
I find that when I when I'm really into the
writing process, I always I almost feel like I'm enter
another world. And I don't know if it is like
what you were saying about method acting, but I am
so much in that physical space and moving around and

(01:30:01):
seeing things and witnessing things that it's so for me.

Speaker 5 (01:30:07):
To write about anything in a vivid or really felt way.

Speaker 4 (01:30:11):
I really have to inhabit that space, both physically and psychologically,
so I feel like I do have a very rich experience.

Speaker 5 (01:30:18):
It's all in my head.

Speaker 4 (01:30:19):
It's nothing that I'm seeing around me at the time,
and so that's that's how I would describe it.

Speaker 3 (01:30:25):
Basically, Well, that's good that you're not bringing these things into,
you know, your normal day, because that could become disruptive
if you were. If you were. But it's interesting because
I don't think we've ever had an actual storyteller on
this show like we talk about. We've talked, like I said,
to actors and casts and people that are involved in

(01:30:47):
making stories appear on film, but never really the mind
or getting into the mind of the people that create
those stories and how that works. Because so much of
what we teach here on this show, and I also
teach an esoteric webinar, is the power of archetypes. You
know how archetypes literally create and control our reality. They

(01:31:10):
become the building blocks of creation. You could argue and
say that once you understand your relationship to these archetypes,
then you can understand how much power you actually have
as a as a being in in this in this
universe that it really does. Once you know how to
speak to them, well, the universe does sort of obey you.

(01:31:33):
And again, like I said, most people don't have any
mastery over that. So you'll have these actors and they
make Annabel dolls walk around and they think that the
Annabel Dolls possessed now, but it's really just their own
expectation being imprinted and having a sort of metaphysical effect
on the on the prop. But for act for for writing,
you know that, where do you find your inspirations come from?

(01:31:58):
Because I know that I to write, I don't write
that much anymore. I actually kind of find no disrespect.
I find it very tedious now. I don't know why
I used to love it. I don't enjoy it as
much anymore. So I don't write stories. It's like I
used to. I have great stories in my head, but
I think I'd rather be like a showrunner than an actual,
you know, writer, because I can I can sort of
like bring it together. But I don't think i'd necessarily

(01:32:21):
be really good at just sitting there in front of
my computer and typing words on a page, which I
do find tedious. Maybe it was just too many years
of college and I just couldn't do it anymore after that.
I think that's actually what it was. It was the
dissertation was I can never want to write again. But
when it comes to uh, when it comes to to
to pulling inspiration, whether it be painting a painting with

(01:32:44):
oils or writing music, I don't find that I'm actually
creating these stories. I feel as though the infant, like
the muses from you know, the ancient world. I feel
like it's being given to me and if I'm not connected,
I can't do it, like I can't be creative. So

(01:33:05):
I guess that's the what writer's block thing versus inspiration.
But how does that manifest for you? Do you find
it to be almost a spiritual experience, like as if
these ideas are being given to you from somewhere else.

Speaker 4 (01:33:16):
Yeah, you know, it's it's such a combination of two things.
For me, Like, first of all, just back it up
to what you said about writing it, and writing has
never ceased to be difficult for me. It's just hard,
Like I don't mean a good plan at all. I
feel so lucky to be doing it, but it is hard.
I find it to be hard work. Especially if I
feel like the writing is going well. It's hard work,
but I think that what kind of getting into what
you were saying, It seems like two paradoxical things where

(01:33:39):
part of it is keeping my ass and a chaired working,
and like, okay, this is like I have to show
up and be there. This might not be a day
that's going to go so great with me with my writing,
but I have to show up. And then I have
to open myself to ideas. So a lot of times
that'll happen when I'm not writing. I'll be out for
a run or I'll be walking around and I'll think, oh, man,
you know I mean, I just have this idea for

(01:34:01):
a new book come to me that I haven't started
working on.

Speaker 5 (01:34:04):
But it just came to me when I was I
was walking around.

Speaker 4 (01:34:08):
So that's the unexpected time when things are kind of brewing,
there's asked my chair time, and somewhere between those worlds
where the dreamy world and the asked in the chair
time meet, then something will start to flow, you know,
that idea. I will start putting things together and and
it doesn't flow like magic like I have.

Speaker 5 (01:34:28):
I often try to. I have a lot of false starts.

Speaker 4 (01:34:30):
I have an idea about where where I think a
story might go and where where it might work, and
it doesn't. It doesn't always go smoothly, but once I
just have those basic ideas down, Like for this the inhabitants,
for instance, it started with the house, the house, the architect,
and the artist, and I thought those are the kind
of the main thing. So how am I going to
put that together in a story? And part of that is.

Speaker 5 (01:34:55):
To go a little more out into.

Speaker 4 (01:34:56):
The weeds that the dreamy, the basic ideas, and then
the idea of like how do I create a compelling story?
Like I feel like there has to be something that
the main character is driven to know or find out
or want and then get it through the pages, and
there has to be attention at pacing, like I feel

(01:35:18):
like you guys probably feel like with movies, right, Like
you feel like I feel like we all know when
we actually when we read a book or see a
movie where like things are just moving along, you're really
like into it, turning the pages, and then things just
kind of sag a little bit, and you're like the
story's drifting, Like I feel like, you know, part of
the job of writing a novel in this genre too,
is I think keeping the story running and keeping an

(01:35:40):
mind on pacing and knowing when to move things along
and when to slow down and let the environment and
the story kind of open up and let the story
breathe a little bit, like maybe when I think in
The Inhabitants, when the main character Nilda is getting into
the mysteries of the house and like how do this
strange house and the architectural forms and at work, like

(01:36:03):
she has to kind of slows down then, but then
it picks up when you know she's under some of
the dangerous that she faces, it kind of picks up.
So kind of a roundabout way of answering your question,
But there's a lot of different moving.

Speaker 3 (01:36:17):
Parts, I guess, yeah, No, I fully fully understand that
that's it's kind of brilliant how it comes together like that,
and how it connects in certain ways that there are,
like you say, days where the connections just aren't being
made and it's more of a struggle. You got to
work harder and it becomes perhaps more frustrating. But I'm

(01:36:37):
sure there's also days though, where it just flows and
you can't stop, and in time almost seems to get
away from you. Do you find that to be true too?

Speaker 11 (01:36:47):
Oh?

Speaker 5 (01:36:47):
Yeah, those are the best days.

Speaker 4 (01:36:48):
I mean, those are the days that I think I
would never want to stop writing for that reason. And
you know, even if it's one day out of five
or whatever.

Speaker 5 (01:36:56):
You know, it's worth it. So you're absolutely right about
that for sure.

Speaker 3 (01:37:00):
What would you say the ratio is for you know,
for for aspiring writers out there, what's the ratio of
like writers block days versus high inspiration days.

Speaker 5 (01:37:08):
It depends, you know, it really varies, like it's very
like for me.

Speaker 4 (01:37:12):
Sometimes it'll be like, oh, this is a really great week,
and other weeks it'll be like, oh, this sucks.

Speaker 5 (01:37:16):
And it depends on your real life too, like if
you have stuff going on.

Speaker 4 (01:37:19):
In real world that's like you're struggling with, there's you know,
something you're dealing with that can that can affect it too.
But all I need to know is that, I mean,
the minute that stops, if that ever stops happening with
my writing, I'll fold it out, you know, I'll fold
my tent and go stay goodbye to it. But so
far so that keeps happening, so.

Speaker 3 (01:37:39):
Well's yeah, I mean I imagine that it could start
to get in there, right, you have like that you
get cut off on the road, or somebody says something
rude to you and then puts you in a bad mood.
Then you go home and write, and then you find
that now the characters, you know, acting in a certain
way that's not consistent with what they've been doing before.
And then you have to stop it yourself and say, well,
wait a minute, acting too much of myself into this situation, right,

(01:38:03):
I mean that probably is something you have to always
catch yourself with, right.

Speaker 4 (01:38:07):
Yeah, definitely. Yeah, the world has a way of intruding,
I guess for everyone, right in everyone's lives, whatever your
endeavors are, that that can you know, throw you off
your game a little bit.

Speaker 3 (01:38:18):
You can't well, I mean even for the even for
the reader, right, because I mean sometimes you might hit
a nerve that you might be talking about something that
just triggers a person and hits them a certain way,
be it positive or negative, and maybe they have to
put it down because it's just hits too close to
home or it you know, feels too real and they

(01:38:41):
have to stop. I mean I know when I was
I don't. I don't really have a lot of time,
unfortunately to read novels today, and I can sometimes get
really bad headaches if I spend too much time in
a book, so my reading isn't as as prolific as
it used to be when I was younger. But I
used to read a lot of I mean, I think
I had read every every book Stephen King ever wrote,

(01:39:04):
because I love the horror genre, and I like suspense,
and I liked psychological horror, and he did that very well,
particularly with Misery, which was one of my favorite ones.
You know, there were a few others I can't think
of off the top of my head, but they had
some good ones.

Speaker 4 (01:39:19):
The Stand.

Speaker 3 (01:39:19):
The Stand a lot of characters. That was tough to
keep track of who everyone was, but once you get
I started writing them down so I could remember. Its
a lot of characters in that book, but there was one.
Which one was it? It was basically the entire book
is from the perspective of the main character, who's basically, well,

(01:39:46):
she was. She was having a sexual relationship with I
think it was. It might have been either boyfriend or
a husband or something, but they were into the bondage stuff,
so she was she was locked up to the bedpost
the Practice Hire book, and then there's like, that's what
it was. Gerald's game. It was and the whole story
is weird things happening because she can't The guy dies,

(01:40:09):
he has a heart attack or something, and she can't
get free. And the entire book is these weird things
happening in the room while she's locked up in this
compromise situation. And I thought that was I mean dark
and really the story, but also really brilliant at the
same time. And it was just fascinating to read that
and think about, you know, the the being in a

(01:40:33):
situation where you're compromise, where you're restricted, you can't get away,
and these horrifying things continue to develop, and then she
starts to regress back to things in her youth that
are leading to these things that she's seeing.

Speaker 12 (01:40:47):
Now.

Speaker 3 (01:40:49):
I don't remember the entire I'd love this to read
it again, because I don't remember the it'd be like
reading it for the first time. But I do remember
that premise, and I think that's such a brilliant premise.
And Stephen King really could get you into the heads
of the characters in a certain way. I think he
defines horror by sort of the worst things that he
could come up with and then putting that into the

(01:41:10):
lives of his characters. How how do you define her?
How do you deal with the genre?

Speaker 4 (01:41:17):
You know, I just want to echo something just going
back to Stephen.

Speaker 5 (01:41:19):
King, like, I think like this will answer get to
answer your question.

Speaker 4 (01:41:26):
But I think like one of the main things that
I think that horror needs to do is have a
horror writer needs to have empathy for the characters. And
I think Stephen King like does that a lot. He does.

Speaker 5 (01:41:35):
I think he does it like the most brilliant way.

Speaker 4 (01:41:38):
I think maybe is an his first novel, Carrie, Like,
I feel like, you know, we see throughout the much
of the book, we really see Carrie being bullied by
her high school classmates, by her mother, and you know,
when her telekinetic powers come to the fort, that climax
of the prom you know, and her she just you know,

(01:42:00):
exact sis vengeance. We feel like it feels so earned
because we feel like we brought into all of her
misery and it's almost like I think if he hadn't done,
if he hadn't built so much empathy for Carrie, we
wouldn't have felt that invested.

Speaker 5 (01:42:12):
We would just see her as.

Speaker 4 (01:42:13):
A monster and not as this really set upon young
woman who is just, you know, really just brought to
the state of things. So I think that, you know,
any no any horror novel that I write, I see
empathy as being prime. I mean, I feel like I
really want to I hope that I feel really care
about the characters when I'm writing about them, and I'm

(01:42:33):
hoping that when readers we read the characters and the stories,
they'll they'll empathize with them, even if they're feel a
little bit creeped out by them, that they'll be able
to understand what's driving them and.

Speaker 5 (01:42:45):
Feel invested in what's its stake for the characters.

Speaker 4 (01:42:48):
So I know that sounds weird because you think wore
empathy they don't really fit together. But I really feel like,
I feel like if characters feel really flat and they're
just moving around and doing things, but we don't really
know what driving them, you know, I just I feel
like it's hard to really care about anything that they experience.

Speaker 3 (01:43:07):
I think you, however, Gary, I would say empathy is
an absolutely essential part to any story, but I think
even more so in horror, because horror is the one
thing about horror that might be different than anything else.
And I guess every genre has a way of dealing
with this, but horror really wants you to feel the
real and wants to make something that's not ordinary experience

(01:43:32):
real to you. That's unique, I think to horror, and
I don't think that's achievable without some kind of empathy
with the character. And you need to have a strong
character that has a lot of depth to it, a
lot of structure in order to be able to do that.
Like take, for example, I don't know if you've seen

(01:43:53):
I'm sure you've seen the original, but I'm not sure
you've seen the remake Poultergeist. Okay, oh yeah, yeah, the
original characters with Joe Beth Williams and Heather o'roarch and
Zelda Rubinstein I think it's her name. Uh, there's so

(01:44:14):
many good, good actors in that film. Uh there. You know,
every time you get to know a character in that film,
which is also just really good storytelling, uh, you can relate.
They almost feel like people. You know, the movie shows
you mundane things like them eating breakfast or you know,

(01:44:35):
having an argument with the neighbor. These are not necessary.
I mean, they do find a way to create some
kind of weirdness with it, but overall, what it's showing
is normalcy, so that you can feel like these are
people that you know, maybe even your own family. The
remake had none of that depth. They all felt like

(01:44:57):
just like shells. It was might as well just created
an AI you know, a movie with with just automatons
and call it a day, because it was it was
so shallow and one dimensional the characters were that it
made the entire movie feel shallow and one dimensional to

(01:45:18):
the point that it wasn't scary anymore. They made it
more in your face kind of jump scare and and
much less so something that you could relate to. Because
what made I think Poultrygeist in my opinion, my it's
it's my favorite horror film of all time. What I

(01:45:38):
what I love the most about it was that it
really centers on the love of the parents trying to
get their daughter back, and that's what anchors you into
the horror, because the horror is not so much the
ghosts or the the tombs coming up from the ground.
It's the thought of losing what's most precious to you.

Speaker 4 (01:46:02):
You know, absolutely, I'm glad that you told me. The
second polar guys is. I love the first one, and
I didn't see the new ones, so I'm glad. I'll
just skip it.

Speaker 3 (01:46:10):
You can just skip it.

Speaker 11 (01:46:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:46:12):
The only cool thing about it is that because of
the day the day and age of paranormal television, they
did add this feature where they they put a camera
into the little vortex that opens where she goes into
the other side. You know, where the little girl ends up,

(01:46:34):
and you can see kind of what she sees on
the other side, whereas in the in the the the original,
we never really get to see that that much. You
get like the lights and the flashing and everything, but
you never really see what the other side looks. I mean,
you do in the sequel, I guess. But overall, maybe
what makes horror, what makes a good horror story the best,

(01:46:57):
is when you don't see what's really out there, when
you have to use your imagination, which is always worse
than what really is.

Speaker 4 (01:47:03):
Right, the unknown, Right, the unknown is so I think
in real life too, Right, the unknown is often more
terrifying than what we can perceive.

Speaker 3 (01:47:13):
Yeah, yeah, it almost always, almost always, because I think again,
because you were talking about it kind of circles back
to people are really the scary thing, right, They're the
real monsters. And that's because our psychees are horrifying. I
mean they can take and conjure up some of the
worst things. I mean, look at we have this entire

(01:47:34):
genre because of it. Because Stephen King is a prime
example of a of a of a of an author
that made a very successful career out of writing about
the worst things he could possibly conjure up and think
that could happen to a person, you know, And that's
scary because fear.

Speaker 6 (01:47:52):
Fear makes us fascinated. But you know it's something we all,
everybody loves to be scared a little bit.

Speaker 3 (01:48:00):
It's like a roller coaster.

Speaker 6 (01:48:01):
Yeah, definitely the dopamine drop.

Speaker 11 (01:48:06):
You know.

Speaker 8 (01:48:08):
Well, And the stories only work because we can identify
with them, right, And so I mean it's like you
said earlier about basically, if you don't create somebody that
a reader or a viewer cares about, why would you care?
How You're not going to be frightened. It's not You're
not going to be or if it's a love story,
you're not going to have any feelings of empathy or

(01:48:32):
and so we have to be able to identify and
I think that they sort of For me, it's amusing,
but for a lot of people that's terrifying. Is that
is actually if they if they reflected then realize that
the only reason they're able to identify with you know,
films like seven or or or or any horror genre

(01:48:53):
is it is because in.

Speaker 7 (01:48:53):
Fact they can imagine, they can picture it being that. Yeah,
I mean that's and you shouldn't scare him. Actually, that's
that's human nature, right, that's how fall the nature.

Speaker 3 (01:49:05):
Well, the premise is, the premise is to put yourself
into that compromise position. So like for example, Gerald's game
is is that you're you're you're supposed to identify with
her being in this horror, horrific situation, experiencing their horrific things,
and what would that be like to you? All of them?
The shining is another one. I mean, really, what would

(01:49:27):
it be like to be I think we're supposed to
identify with the mom and even less so than the boy,
because you know, she's just going with her husband to
this you know, remote hotel to place, yeah, to take
care of it, and he just loses his mind out

(01:49:48):
there and wants to just go murderous rage on on
on them And what would that feel like if the
person you're married to would change? And and now there's
no hope of getting away. There's no way you can runt.
It's no one that you can call to rescue you.
You're on your own. And that's scary, you know that,

(01:50:09):
because that's something that could happen, even outside of the
esp and the psychic stuff that's added in for the
supernatural fun, you know.

Speaker 11 (01:50:17):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (01:50:17):
And of course ultimately The Shining is A is a
haunted house story. I mean it really is. But it
you know, particularly the movie how Steve Stanley Kubrick I
think took what Stephen King wrote and made it even
more brilliant because he took on he took with its
genius on top of genius. And if you if you

(01:50:39):
look at Steve, yeah, it really did. Because when you
look at what what.

Speaker 4 (01:50:46):
You know?

Speaker 13 (01:50:46):
What what what?

Speaker 11 (01:50:47):
What?

Speaker 4 (01:50:47):
What?

Speaker 3 (01:50:48):
What Stanley Kubrick does with every film, You can do it?
Try it. I challenge you. I'll get pop in a
Stanley Kubrick movie, doesn't matter which one, Okay, and freeze
frame anywhere random. You could actually print that out and
put it on your wall. It everything is perfectly lined
up as if it's a work of art. We don't

(01:51:09):
really have too many directors and producers that can that
that care enough to put that much into it. Of course,
I heard he was hell to work with, but anyway,
you know, that's besides the point. I guess genius is
hell to work. Yeah, it's true, but it all serves
to bring us into the experience of those archetypes that
are being brought alive by the story, and it's it's

(01:51:32):
just the way of making the story even more real,
I would, I would guess, But you know, there's also
something kind of truly frightening about being alone, you know,
in your home at night, you know, and and and
and and opening a book and and and reading these
things and getting into it each time, and then and

(01:51:53):
then letting your mind and your imagination wandering. It can
feel quite unsettling, you know, if you're if you're reading
something that it's on the fringe of horror, or even
if it's something that could be psychologically possible, which is
worse in my opinion.

Speaker 4 (01:52:09):
Definitely, Yeah, that's one of my favorite, my best compliments.

Speaker 5 (01:52:14):
My friends said that they stopped reading my.

Speaker 4 (01:52:16):
Book at night because they were so scared so I
took that as a high compliment.

Speaker 13 (01:52:22):
It is.

Speaker 3 (01:52:22):
And I can tell you right now that I'm seeing
a lot of people in the they're saying that they're
going they already bought the book. I already bought your book.
So my wife's an avid reader, she'll oh, great, thank you,
thank you.

Speaker 4 (01:52:39):
It's it's funny like this is. I don't know if
I haven't early but I don't know if you guys
read this book or saw that movie, but I think
one of the scared those frightened I was reading a
book was I think I was like twelve or thirteen
and I read Peter Straub's Ghost Story. I don't know
if you there was the movie and then the book,
and I think the book, I don't know if it
would hold up the same way when I read it now,
but it was when you're when I was twelve or thirteen,

(01:53:01):
it was one of the most terrifying things I read.
And I think I almost couldn't. I did not sleep
properly for like a I don't know how many days
after that. So that was an early education and being
scared to death by a book.

Speaker 7 (01:53:15):
So how you know it's a good book?

Speaker 3 (01:53:18):
You know it's good. Yeah, and again again it gets
back to that connection.

Speaker 11 (01:53:22):
You know.

Speaker 3 (01:53:23):
I think the reason movies like The Extreorcists and uh
and The Shining, you know, misery, the reason they're they're
they're these stories are are so good is because they're plausible,
even outside of their supernatural elements. They're plausible things. People
can go crazy and you might see things. You might

(01:53:44):
think a ghost is forcing you to do something, but
it's still the horror of the person doing it, right.
I mean, no ghosts ever hurt the characters it was
it was just uh, what was the character?

Speaker 10 (01:53:58):
Was it?

Speaker 11 (01:53:58):
Jack?

Speaker 3 (01:53:59):
Was the character name Jack in the book? I can't remember?
In the Shine?

Speaker 4 (01:54:02):
Was Jack? Yeah? Oh?

Speaker 3 (01:54:04):
Really was it? Yeah? Okay, so you know Jack is
the only one that really hurts any I mean, well,
I guess yeah, He's the only one hurts anybody in there.
It's not the ghost the ghost. I mean, the story
kind of leads you to think that the ghost convinced
him to do it, But then you have to ask
yourself the whole time, you know, is that just not
in his own in his head, he's thinking that these
things are telling him to do these things, and he's
becoming having an unhealthy relationship with this place, you know,

(01:54:28):
or is it the energy of the hotel? And I
mean it there's a lot of different well, I mean,
I know, the book plays into the supernatural far more
than the Stanley Kubrick movie, which makes it, I think
more psychological, to the point that you can think that
maybe he's just going crazy, you know. I I remember
showing the Shining to one of my friends for the

(01:54:49):
first time, and you know, and and and if you've
never seen it. For those in the audience who have
never seen the movie, it, I'm not going to spoil
too much, but there's there's a It starts by telling
you the day of the week, so it's like Sunday
and then and then Monday, and then there's all these
things that happen, like they arrive and then you see

(01:55:10):
them being introduced and walked around the the hotel, and
then on Monday there's other family interaction. You can see
them kind of getting settled in, and then it's like
and then there's then he you know. The main character,
Jack was played by Jack Nicholson in this movie, perhaps
his most brilliant performance ever, probably the best one he's
ever done. I think you know, he he you know,

(01:55:33):
he's he's slowly deteriorating and he's typing a story. He's
writing the whole time. But you know, she she thinks
he's working hard when she finally gets down there and sees,
you know that what he's typing, it's just he keeps
repeating the same sentence over and over and over again. Right,
all work and no play makes Jack a doll boy,
I think, so that becomes like her moment of horror,

(01:55:55):
like what's happened to my husband? But I remember like
one of the days it just shows you, like Wednesday,
and he's just looking staring into space at the camera
and he's getting this this look on his face that's
just pure like it's just terrify, terrifying to see. And

(01:56:16):
that's it. And then it goes to Wednesday and my
friends's and that was just goes to Thursday and she
goes and that was just Wednesday. You know, that kind
of suspense I think makes storytelling just so brilliant. So
we're talking with we're talking with Beth Castradale about her
book The Inhabitants, and we're going to talk more about

(01:56:39):
this story and horror when we come back and also
take some of your questions, so don't go away.

Speaker 11 (01:57:03):
I can see.

Speaker 2 (01:57:07):
From big hind.

Speaker 1 (01:57:10):
You can't care in your mind minds as you can.

Speaker 2 (01:57:26):
Time catch you.

Speaker 11 (01:57:30):
You know.

Speaker 12 (01:57:50):
Are you afraid of the dark? Are you scared?

Speaker 11 (01:58:01):
I am you.

Speaker 13 (01:58:38):
I'm coming closer.

Speaker 1 (01:58:45):
I will get share.

Speaker 12 (01:58:51):
It goes stick talk. Are you afraid of the dark?

(01:59:21):
Are you scared?

Speaker 11 (01:59:28):
I am you? Are you scared?

Speaker 12 (02:00:19):
Are you afraid of the jobs.

Speaker 1 (02:01:35):
In schools? Stooping sustain.

Speaker 2 (02:04:50):
Boost.

Speaker 3 (02:05:40):
Welcome back everyone to the third and final hour of
Vestiges After Dark. We've been having a very engaging conversation
with our guest tonight, Bess Castra Dale, about her book
The Inhabitants. Go check it out on Amazon. We'll also
put more links up there in the chats so that
you can more easily find it. But it's easy to

(02:06:02):
find and we'll just do a Google search you'll come
across it. And now we're going to be taking your questions.
If you have any, you can do that by asking
them in the chat, which most of you prefer to do,
or you can call into the show at atoo two
three two one zero zero seven three. That's at two
three two one zero zero seven three. For now, you
can still use Skype and until they take it away

(02:06:25):
next month, but you can contact us internationally for free
on Skype. Just call I have the c or E
y E O F t h E s E E
R and we'll bring you on the air if you
have any questions. But we are got some questions in
the chat. We're going to get to them all here
in just a moment, they'll go away.

Speaker 11 (02:07:24):
Is that.

Speaker 2 (02:07:30):
Is that man?

Speaker 11 (02:07:36):
Is that.

Speaker 2 (02:07:42):
Is that?

Speaker 11 (02:08:12):
You know?

Speaker 3 (02:08:12):
Austin over on Facebook? I see your message there.

Speaker 4 (02:08:16):
You know.

Speaker 3 (02:08:17):
I want you to be rest assured. Regardless of what
you did when when you were twenty four years old,
you cannot sell your soul to the devil. It is
not possible. It's not yours to give, and it's only
an illusion. It's a trick. But I'd like to talk
with you more about that. If you want to call
into the show on our next open Lines Open Topics,
I'll be more than happy to discuss that with you,

(02:08:38):
or you can also contact us at office at Nicolean
dot org. That's office at n I C H O
L e A N dot org. But please do not
worry yourself about selling your soul to the devil. Because
it is not possible. Okay. So I'm sure we have
some questions out there. I noticed some of them coming
in while we were talking the last Okay, so father,

(02:09:00):
let's go for it. Let's jump right in here.

Speaker 7 (02:09:01):
I've got some of my own.

Speaker 3 (02:09:03):
Okay, great, now, please please do please.

Speaker 8 (02:09:07):
So I mean, I'm a writer, but I generally write
in well, I write, I write biographies.

Speaker 7 (02:09:13):
So that's because I was going to say I write
in nonfiction. Actually, biography biographies are a mixture of fiction
and nonfiction because our lives are even though I do
authorized biographies. You know, how a person remembers what happened
is not necessarily the truth anyway. But so I'm and more.

Speaker 8 (02:09:34):
Recently, I spend most of my time writing speeches and
opinion articles for politicians, so I kind of have to
write in other people's names as well, which is an
interesting sort of experience. So so some of these questions
are a bit self indulgent, but hopefully they'll be widely
used to other people. But you talked about a lot
of the time it's about keeping your butt in the

(02:09:54):
chair to get you know, writing long form.

Speaker 3 (02:09:59):
I feel it, she said as their father.

Speaker 7 (02:10:06):
I initially wrote that down. She would have said that,
I would have I like that.

Speaker 3 (02:10:12):
It's about the realism. It's about realism. You know, no
pretense there right, no pretense. We go all the way.

Speaker 7 (02:10:20):
And also the word book doesn't really mean anything that
listening to Americans say. So my first question is how
do you do that? Because I speak with empathy? How
do you do that?

Speaker 4 (02:10:37):
You know, it's funny, like I think this sounds may
sound weird, but I'm kind of a stubborn person, Like
I make up my mind about stuff, and I think
like stubbornness and habit are very much related to me.
So I feel like, you know, I run her. So
every morning I get up and I go for my run.
It's like brushing my teeth. I get it. You know.
I try to really write every single day, and that

(02:10:59):
is just I mean, it's just literally putting my ass
in the chair. Like I feel like I have to
have the discipline to do that. And if I because
I know that one thing is for sure. If I
don't do that, it's just my writing is never going
to happen. And I'm very privileged in that I don't
I don't have an office job anymore, so I have
very flexible hours and I can do that, and I

(02:11:19):
just feel like it's kind of my stubborn is kicking in.
I'm like, my novels will never get written if I
don't do that. So it's just I just managed to
keep that with me. Every day.

Speaker 7 (02:11:30):
I'll be kind of wrestling with this because, I mean,
for whatever reason, and it's not because I'm being paid
for it.

Speaker 8 (02:11:35):
It's definitely not that money doesn't motivate me. But I
find it easier to be disciplined of getting something written
if it's for somebody else. But it's for me, I
find that I find it hard to do. It's a
weird thing. I don't I mean, I don't know whether
you've written in other people's names or whether you understand

(02:11:55):
that dynamic.

Speaker 7 (02:11:55):
I don't know, but yeah, I.

Speaker 4 (02:11:58):
Guess, oh yeah, definitely with like work, with work stuff,
that's the whole other thing. Like I know, okay, there's
a deadline on this project. I feel like, you know,
I I hope, I think, like think of myself as
a conscience conscientious person. I hope I am. But I
feel like if I really feel committed, if I have
a deadline and at work thing, I really feel it
committed to that, but I also feel like, you know,
for I know what you mean though with your like

(02:12:18):
for a long time, especially, I think when I had
like an office job, I had to like thought, oh,
I'm so tired, and I don't, you know, from work,
I don't really want to write. So that was more
like at that point I was doing a lot of
my writing on the weekends, but I would still try
to have some kind of imposed discipline. But it is
really hard, and I think like it's almost like I think,
like with any like even.

Speaker 5 (02:12:37):
With exercise, I think like the more you do it,
the more you do it, you know, And I really
feel like you kind of.

Speaker 4 (02:12:42):
Get into the habit over time. If you really carve
out that you know, sacred space for it and just
really keep doing it, the habit will form.

Speaker 8 (02:12:49):
I think, oh, yeah, let's get maybe, yeah, I get
I'll try and be more bloody minded with myself about it.

Speaker 7 (02:12:56):
The Uh, what's your favorite horror novel?

Speaker 4 (02:13:00):
Oh gosh, there's so many of them, but I'm thinking
of like within the genre of this, the spooky House,
the Hanted House. Like I really have to say that
I love the Haunting of Hill House by Shirley Jackson. Like,
I just think that that move that book and all
that the book, and also I think the Mike Flannagan
series that that ripped off it just spectacular, and.

Speaker 5 (02:13:21):
I think like that, especially with a space the house
is a character. I think it's so brilliant, brilliantly done.

Speaker 4 (02:13:29):
And I also really in that same genre of haunted houses,
I really love The House next Door by Anne River
Siddons and she writes, she writes about this house that
unlike a lot of haunted house books, it's a brand
new house that was just built by this fancy architect,
and uh, the house ends up. It's a beautiful house,
but it's really sinister and it's like everyone who moves

(02:13:51):
into it some horrible thing befollows them, and it gets
the neighbor to turn against neighbor ultimately. And it's just
a really good book. So that is The House next Door.
It's I really recommend it.

Speaker 5 (02:14:03):
It's really good.

Speaker 7 (02:14:05):
Yeah. I grew up in a Victorian house. I mean
I'm from England originally, and so.

Speaker 8 (02:14:10):
You know, most of our houses are old, and so
I kind of I identify with that Victorian era and
that you know, and obviously the Romantic era of literature,
and there were so many horror films that sorry, horror
novels that were written in that time.

Speaker 7 (02:14:29):
And you know, you've got Mary Shelley, you know, the
Franken and in.

Speaker 3 (02:14:35):
A lot of ways, i'd say i'd say the British
were really sort of the originators of the genre. Would
wouldn't you say that?

Speaker 7 (02:14:43):
I think so? Yeah, I think, I mean you had
gral and Poe did a reasonable job. He was an American,
but but.

Speaker 8 (02:14:51):
Yeah, but I so I really kind of having grown
up in a Victorian house and with the family that
you know, was open to these sorts of things.

Speaker 7 (02:15:00):
That's my sort of research, if you like, or my
you know, how do you do your research? Like what
you mentioned obviously you've lived you lived in that house
in New England and was it sorry, was it New England?

Speaker 4 (02:15:11):
I think it was, Oh yeah, jefinitely Vermont. Yeah, it's
where that the house, the house in the novels in Vermont,
So definitely. I did some architectural research, like I was
looking at some houses in Vermont in particular, and some
of that that architectural features that would be part of them.
And uh, I also did It's interesting I I did.

(02:15:34):
I watched This may sound bizarre, but I watched a
lot of real like ghosts hunting shows because the uh,
the main character is ends up getting hooked on them
and she's she's greeting her mom, and part of that
her experiences is that she she just kind of gets
hooked on these shows, like she's she's skeptical, but she

(02:15:54):
wants to see She's like, has this idea that she's
mourning her mother and she has she's kind of jealous
of the people who can connect with spirits and she
feels like she doesn't have that. So I watched a
lot of that, and then I did a lot of
research about how people talk about spirits, Like I think.

Speaker 5 (02:16:11):
The idea that was brought up earlier about where like uh.

Speaker 4 (02:16:16):
Events get recorded in a house like that kind of thing,
Like what are the different ways people talk about having experience,
you know, haunting experience as a home.

Speaker 5 (02:16:24):
So I did research into that and uh so there
were and also there's a.

Speaker 4 (02:16:32):
One of the characters is uh he's kind of an
herbalist and uh in a kind of a dark way.
So I was looking at ways that you know, different
herbs and so forth can be said to have these
different properties, so some different things.

Speaker 5 (02:16:45):
Research all over the place basically, but it's.

Speaker 4 (02:16:48):
Interesting to do it.

Speaker 7 (02:16:50):
I guess that helps, you know, you to doing research
helps you to bring you know, you know, to draw
a line between the everything that's in your mind too
through the something that needs to go on a page,
you know, to have some.

Speaker 8 (02:17:03):
Kind of filter mechanism to you know, come to a
point of writing the narrative. I guess that research sort
of helps to helps to in the sense, remove the
noise and focus on something that you know you can
get into. Do you face any so your books are published?

Speaker 7 (02:17:25):
Do you face any editorial arguments over language?

Speaker 5 (02:17:30):
But I think it's very.

Speaker 4 (02:17:32):
Civil generally when we have like you know, the editors
I've worked with are great and sometimes they'll make suggestions
and a lot of times, you know, I think there's
just great And actually way before that, before even before
the publishing stage, I have a lot of other outside
readers read drafts so they can comment on them and
I and I just really I so respect that input

(02:17:52):
and find it so helpful. Like because you probably know
as a writer that sometimes you're so into a topic
that you don't realize what you're It's clear to you,
but it's not clear to your reader what is.

Speaker 5 (02:18:02):
What's going on.

Speaker 4 (02:18:03):
So having the I really respect those those outside voices.
And in terms of the word choice, I'm so open to,
you know, other people's ideas about you know, how a
sentence could work or the right words. You know, sometimes
I'll dig in my heels if I feel like, you know,
that's I really feel like this is the way that
it needs to be said.

Speaker 5 (02:18:20):
But usually it's a very polite sort of discourse.

Speaker 2 (02:18:24):
I guess.

Speaker 8 (02:18:26):
One of my one of my things that keeps me
motivated is to my hobby is to try and get
as many archaic uses of English into everything right as possible,
partly because you know, the way that you preserve language
is by using it right.

Speaker 7 (02:18:41):
You know, if it falls out of use, it falls
out of use.

Speaker 8 (02:18:44):
If Friedrich Hayk had great things to say about the
English language, you know, it was never designed by central planning,
and it's a great argument for libertarian principles. But the yeah,
so that's one of my little motivators is to try
and get get.

Speaker 7 (02:18:56):
Some archaic use of English in there.

Speaker 8 (02:18:58):
But you know, I couldn't believe in Australia, so that
can come up against some resistance, So.

Speaker 7 (02:19:05):
I just wanted you.

Speaker 3 (02:19:09):
One of the questions in the chat for you, Beth,
is that if you have any interest in in uh
the Inhabitants or any other one of your stories being
made into a movie, is that something that you would
pursue or have tried to pursue.

Speaker 4 (02:19:24):
You know, it's funny, like I mean, I'd be up
for it.

Speaker 5 (02:19:26):
I think like it's funny.

Speaker 4 (02:19:28):
Like with the publishing world, usually you have to be
approached about like no one has approached me.

Speaker 5 (02:19:32):
I would, I would be up for it.

Speaker 4 (02:19:34):
I mean, I think like it's funny because as I
see as I write novels, as I as I mentioned
a little bit earlier, like I definitely see them as visual.

Speaker 5 (02:19:42):
And you know, it's also almost like taking part in
a you know, being a part of the experience and.

Speaker 4 (02:19:49):
Seeing it visually and experiencing it. So I see things
sort of cinematically while I'm writing them. So yeah, I
mean I think it. I think it would be I
think it would be a lot of fun. And and uh,
I mean I think again about like when I was
talking earlier about the Hani Hillhouse and how my plan
again worked with that story, and how it was such

(02:20:10):
the The idea of a television series versus a movie
was so perfect for that because that novel is just
there's so many corridors to that story literally and figuratively
that I think that that that, you know, that episodic
approach just works in a well for it. So I
think there's really great ways. I mean, this is like
probably a cliche to say it, but there's there's some

(02:20:32):
things that writing can do that film can't do, and
there's some things that film can. One like one quick
brilliant scene, like what you were saying about The Shining,
where there's that one day where we just see that
this crazed face of Jack.

Speaker 3 (02:20:46):
Yeah, that's hard to do in a book.

Speaker 5 (02:20:47):
Yeah, like cinema, Like, there's some things that cinema is
just meant to do. So I love it when a book, writening.

Speaker 4 (02:20:53):
Book or whatever book is made, it's just done in
the most brilliant way possible. One film like You Can't
was pulled up, but when it is pulled off, it's
just it's just extraordinary. I think so well.

Speaker 3 (02:21:04):
Ironically, Stephen King, as I understand it, was not happy
with Stanley Kubrick's rendition, and eventually when I guess Stephen
King got big enough in the industry, he he could
get to the point that he could get it produced
the way he wanted it. And he did this little
mini series of the story that he wanted to tell
that was very true to the book. And I don't

(02:21:25):
think it did very well because people were expecting the
Shining again and it wasn't that. It was a very
different telling. The acting wasn't as good, the the the
screen place very much. And how can you top what
Kubrick did, you know? But he changed a lot. He
did change a Germanic amount. Kubrick did, uh, And I
think that's something that authors struggle with understandably so as

(02:21:49):
well as their their their fans, they're they're they're readers.
Harry Potter's a great example of this right now. You know,
I know that she's come into some controversy. But the original,
the movies you know that we all are familiar with,
obviously had to cut a lot from JK. Rowlings, and

(02:22:11):
they changed a lot, particularly after the second movie. I
think one and two were very true to the book,
but three was a dramatic deviation. As I understand it.
I never read them, but my wife did, and then
everyone after that. They were much larger books and so
there was even less that they could include. So then
they came out with this. I guess HBO is going

(02:22:32):
to be doing a series. It's going to take them,
like Dan or twelve years to get through them all,
and they're going to do them like from what I understand,
like everything in the book. So, I mean, guess, how
would you deal with how would you relate to, you know,
having your story having to be but you know, Butcher

(02:22:54):
chopped up and then resorted into something else, because that's
probably what would happen if it made it to the movies.
You know, how would you feel about that?

Speaker 5 (02:23:02):
Yeah, it's funny.

Speaker 4 (02:23:03):
I think like the real artists in film can just
they can you know that you almost have to give
it over and not. I mean, I don't know. I'm
just speaking from the you know, speculation standpoint, but I
feel like you almost have. It's a different kind of
form of art and there's a different language to it,
the language of you know, visual and visual language and
film versus words on a page. And I would I

(02:23:23):
would try, you know, if you have a real artist
working in that medium, I would trust them to do
what they had to do, because I think, like uh,
I think sometimes if there's something as too maybe gett
into what you were saying with the shining, and if
it's too literal to the book, it might not be
as effective as if you did. If you did, if
you conveyed a plot point or a character in a

(02:23:45):
different way, you know, maybe you don't even need to
have any words. There's just a shot, a sight, and
it says everything that the writer would say, you know
what I mean. So I would have to trust, you know,
given the right the right artists, I would just want
to have one of them run with the ball and
just do what I probably could never do. I mean
I wouldn't. I wouldn't try to write a screenplay or

(02:24:06):
you know, I just I don't have those kind of chops.
I think the people who could do it do know
what they're doing.

Speaker 3 (02:24:12):
I mean as well, I think that I think the
hard part for me would be when they betray the character,
like for example, Oh yeah, a big controversial thing that
happened in a popular series that my wife and I
watch is Outlander. I don't know if you've known the.

Speaker 5 (02:24:26):
Books, uh, I haven't read the books are seen like.

Speaker 3 (02:24:31):
So I don't know, but okay, it's it's a good
it's a it's good, and and the the stars, you know,
production is is very good. But the longer it goes on,
the more they deviate from the source material, which really
the fans for the Outlander books. Diana Gabldon is the

(02:24:53):
is the author for that one, who's a very very
technical writer. I mean, she writes it's history. She doesn't
just write stories, she writes historical stories, and she gets
they're almost encyclopedic in that's just the kind of writer
she is. So they're very detailed. But Claire, the main

(02:25:13):
character in this is you know, a very specific type
of character, and they made a choice several seasons, which
I guess each season is technically one of the books.
But now they're kind of like taking stuff that happens
in another book and putting into this season to try

(02:25:33):
to tell the whole thing. And they're even finishing the
series before she's finished with the last book. So that's
creating controversy too, because now we're going to get a
different ending because she's not sharing with them what the
next book's going to include. She doesn't know herself what
the next book's going to include, so they're just taking
it upon themselves to end it their way. But one
of the things that really got the fans upset was

(02:25:55):
that Claire, who is a doctor from the modern error,
ends up it's kind of a little bit of a
time travel romance story. Honestly, it's more romance than time travel,
but there's a big time travel element. She ends up
back in in Scotland of the seventeen hundreds and and
and you know, she takes her modern medicine skill into

(02:26:19):
helping people, and you know, she looks like sometimes she's
called a witch because you know, some of the things
you can do is just so outside the paradigm that
they think that she must be practicing witchcraft. So she
gets into all sorts of trouble. And of course she's
from the sixties, so she's also very well feminist ideals

(02:26:42):
have become part of her culture, and she takes that
into seventeen hundred Scotland. That doesn't go over very well
with a very you know man's world there, right, and
so there's a lot of that kind of conflict which
makes it very interesting. Yeah, good, there you go. They
make good whiskey, so you can give them that, you know.

(02:27:04):
But so what ends up happening is is in she
never would do this in the book, and the character
just wouldn't do this period. But in the story she
starts to use ether. She has to get she creates
ether because she's doing these operations and people are in pain,
but she starts abusing it, and it's like it's like,

(02:27:27):
that's not that betrays the character in completely, and so
really upset the readers, and they kind of went after
the author and like why do you let them do that?
And the author's like, I don't have any control of
what they do. That's their that's their baby. This is mine,
you know. They do what they want with it, you know,
but it's they They bought it, they built it, you know, right. So,

(02:27:49):
and now it's deviating even more. It's because now we're
getting to the end. The series is wrapped. They've wrapped it,
so they haven't aired it all yet, but they're done
making this. So in the books, like I said, the
last book, and it might not even be the last one.
She's even hinted that she might have another one coming.
And it takes her forever to write these because she's
not somebody that she doesn't stick to a deadline. However

(02:28:11):
long it takes, says, however long it takes her, she
can write in two years, it's two years. If it's
five years, it's five years. And she's also up there
in age, she's like in her seventies, I think. So
people are worried that she might might never finish, and
they've asked her, you know, are you did you leave
notes for your for another author to take over? And
she goes no. So if she dies, it's over. You know,

(02:28:34):
we'll never know what happens. But what are your thoughts
on all that? Yeah, she's she's really spicy kind of
she's fun and she's very sarcastic, I think a little
bit on the the autistic spectra, but on in a
really good way because she just like is a no
nonsense kind of person. She just says it like it is.
If she offends people, it's just the way it is.

(02:28:55):
I kind of understand that, But when what do you
what do you think about that, Beth? Though? You know,
having one of your characters betrayed by somebody taking your
story and now turning it into something completely other than
it's like one thing that just have your you know,
make choices because something works better with film, But it's
another thing to like change what you've created. That's gotta

(02:29:16):
be hard for an author.

Speaker 4 (02:29:17):
Yeah yeah, yeah, I mean I think you raised a
really good point. I mean, I think if it gets
down to the level of the character where I feel like, gosh,
you know how we talked about empathy earlier, in building
characters so that they're you build them from the inside out,
so they're people that you grow to care about and
they have real interior lives that are conveyed on the page.
I feel like if a movie went and just totally

(02:29:40):
made the you know, like it was almost like they
got a brain transplant the character, you know what I mean, Like,
I think that would be really annoying and troubling. So
I think if it gets down to the character level
and also just making the characters, I mean, I don't
I mean, this is a little bit of a digression,
but sometimes one of the things my but says when

(02:30:00):
we're watching the film or something that really annoys me
is he goes, I don't want.

Speaker 5 (02:30:04):
The main character.

Speaker 4 (02:30:05):
I don't want to feel like they're dumber than I
asked you, Like, I want them to be like like
sharp and thinking things through and like, you know, I
want them to be like I want them to be
a step ahead of me. I don't want to be like, oh,
that idiot, you know what I mean. Like I feel
like I think if you start having that feeling when
you're watching, like you just feel betrayed, maybe like that's

(02:30:29):
when I would get annoyed.

Speaker 3 (02:30:30):
Well, it's like the old stereotype, the horror stereotype of like,
you know, they always run into the danger. They don't
they don't really ever make the right choice, right, They
always do something that leads to their demids, right.

Speaker 5 (02:30:44):
Exactly, You're like, no, exactly.

Speaker 4 (02:30:47):
It's just it's sort of when you just see that
the gate, you know, they're they're they're walking toward this
gaping mag it's just you know, and without you know,
whistling toward it. But yeah, I totally see what you
what you're saying, and I agree with that. I think
what I'm Yeah, when it gets to kind of violating
sort of the character as you envisioned them, maybe I

(02:31:10):
think that would be really off putting personally.

Speaker 3 (02:31:13):
I mean, Jody Foster refused to come back for the
sequel to Silence of the lambs Hannibal. For that reason,
she felt that what they had written for her character,
which kind of it implies almost a sympathy for Hannibal,
almost a pseudo attraction maybe to him. That she just

(02:31:38):
felt that Clarice would have never done the one that
the one that she portrayed would have was disgusted by
this guy, you know, fascinated. I mean just from a
professional standpoint, as this FBI, you know, up and coming
FBI agent who who's working perhaps the most dangerous case
of her of her career, right, I mean she's like

(02:32:00):
shout of academy, if I recall, But she is also
disgusted by him. I mean, he's he eats people, he
needs his victims. So the the thought of sort of
having romantic, potentially romantic feelings or that being implied subtly,

(02:32:20):
that's awful.

Speaker 5 (02:32:20):
I don't blame her.

Speaker 4 (02:32:21):
I would have run in the other direction. And you
know then and her the character, and that is a
clear Clarice Starling.

Speaker 3 (02:32:29):
I can't remember her. Yeah, yeah, Starling, Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 (02:32:33):
Just talk about a sharp character who you feel like
she's she's put off by him, but but she's able
to kind of tuck that under.

Speaker 5 (02:32:40):
To face him and really be like I would have
I totally.

Speaker 4 (02:32:44):
Agree with Joey Foster. I mean, that would be such
a violation of that sharp character it was.

Speaker 3 (02:32:50):
It was, I mean, the person that they got to
play Clarice for Hannibal, I don't. I mean she was
she was okay. I mean I think if we would
have started with her would have been fine. I mean,
but Jodie Foster, let's face it is such a brilliant
actor that it would be It's very you can't really
follow that act the same way, and it did. It didn't.

(02:33:11):
I don't think the chemistry between Anthony Hopkins I don't remember.
I mean, that's how bad it is almost feel bad.
I don't remember who the actress was for for for Hannibal,
but she wasn't. She couldn't live up to Jody Foster,
and the chemistry between Hannibal and her was not the same,
so it felt like a very different Clarice. It might
have should have been another character altogether. I think, honestly, yeah,

(02:33:32):
that might have.

Speaker 4 (02:33:32):
Been a better choice, because it just seems like I
think I would be really like, yeah, just like, oh
what happened that the sharp character that I met in
the first you know, episode or the first movie, you
know for sure.

Speaker 3 (02:33:45):
Yeah, It's like, well, I don't think she would have
felt empathy for Hannibal. I don't, don't. I just don't.
And in the scenarios in Hannibal were much more severe
and horrific, if you can imagine. I don't know you've
seen it, but Silence of the Lambs, you know, was
pretty graphic, particularly for the time, and it was done

(02:34:07):
in a very it was done in a very well.
It was just a very dark kind of you know,
suspenseful law enforcement horror kind of show. It kind of
crossed a lot of genres, honestly, which made it so
great and brilliant. But Hannibal was was even more graphic
and and and even more disgustingly horrific. And and so

(02:34:31):
of course Anthony Hopkins does a great job, you know,
he pulls it off brilliantly, But it's it's not the same,
you know. It's because again, they they changed, they made
choices that change the character. And I think Jody would
have done it, honestly, I think she would have. She
planned to do it, but not under those conditions. So

(02:34:52):
I kind of a respect her for that. I respect
her for that because yeah, yeah, and I imagine as
a as a writer, you know, I'm looking at it
from the writer's point of view too. How how that
could feel like a betrayal to you? Because you must
feel a sort of parental kind of care of your stories,
don't you. I mean, as a writer, don't you feel

(02:35:13):
almost as though, in much the same way that a
parent creates a child and cares for that child, nurtures
that child, you know, cultivates that child, that an author
does that very much for their stories and the characters
that they put in them.

Speaker 4 (02:35:30):
Yeah, I think there's self like truth that I mean,
it's something that happens when I always get a little
sad when I finish a book. I mean, part of
me I feel like, oh gosh, I'm glad to.

Speaker 5 (02:35:38):
Be moving on and so forth.

Speaker 4 (02:35:39):
But I really there's there's definitely a real sadness of like,
I feel like I've been in this world with these
spending time with these characters that I've grown to really
care about, and I feel kind of there's a little
bit of a morning period, and so yeah, you definitely
feel that way or I feel that way about it,
And I wonder if you know, maybe feel makers feel

(02:36:00):
the same way to or act I don't know, it's interesting.
I've never done acting to any but I wonder if, like,
if you're really embodying a character too, you feel like
you kind of feel like you mourned at all when
you're partying ways with that character too.

Speaker 7 (02:36:13):
You know.

Speaker 3 (02:36:14):
Yeah, well, I think it probably has a lot to
do with how serious you are about about what you're creating,
you know, because there's clearly there are writers that just
pump out novels because it's just it's it's just the
printing money for themselves. They're not really as invested in it.
They're just putting out stories. The paperbacks that used to

(02:36:34):
find at the grocery store, you know, they grow. Yeah, yeah,
I mean there weren't good stories. This wasn't really I
wouldn't call it literature, you know, but you know it
was maybe good money makers because you know, you have
the the old ladies that would go in and buy
the smut novels and stuff.

Speaker 2 (02:36:51):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (02:36:52):
Well but someone right, you know, what do you think
of that?

Speaker 7 (02:37:01):
You know, I don't dismiss them. I don't dismiss even
even crap.

Speaker 3 (02:37:06):
Well it's I mean it will still, so it's still
had to do the work. That's true. That is true,
But they are one dimensional when you read them. They're
not You're not talking about like some kind of very Yes,
there's formulaic and it touches on all of the very
various elements they want to put in there, but it's
not necessarily a work of art in the in the

(02:37:27):
in the way that you know a good story would be.
But Beth, what do you think of AI? I mean,
as a creator, as a as a as a true
content creator, somebody that actually creates something. What do you
think of AI kind of like infringing upon your space?
Are you worried about it? Or you know, do you
think they'll never it will never really achieve the same
kind of ability.

Speaker 5 (02:37:48):
Yeah, So gosh, so hard to.

Speaker 4 (02:37:50):
Say, isn't it.

Speaker 5 (02:37:50):
I mean, I feel like, you know, I feel like
it is with us, there's no turning back.

Speaker 4 (02:37:57):
So I feel like as the writer, okay, new reality
of dealing with that, I think maybe you know what
you were saying about very formulated kind of books, where
maybe AI will be more readily able to you know,
to turn those kind of books out in terms of
literary you know, kind of literature kind of books.

Speaker 5 (02:38:15):
Who who knows.

Speaker 4 (02:38:16):
I have no idea. I don't think it's I don't
think it will deter me at all as a writer,
because I feel like every book that I go into
is a new adventure for me in my brain. And
I don't AI can do whatever AI is doing, and
I'm gonna be doing my writing my books and having
my own little adventures. But I will say the one

(02:38:37):
thing I have used AI for sometimes with marketing stuff
with my books, Like I'll say, oh, I need to
like write a synopsis of it, And I'll say, I'll
speak a synopsis into an AI tool and it'll spit
something out with some good lines. Yeah you So things
like that, Yeah exactly. I mean I think there's real
places where it's time saving, and you know, I think

(02:39:00):
some of that kind of work work today, stuff that
you have to do when you're doing marketing for your books,
I think that it can help with that. But in
terms of being using it as part of my creative,
like my my fiction writing, I I just don't. I
think that I wouldn't want to outsource something that, as
hard as it is for me, is like so rewarding

(02:39:21):
and so enriching, like I just can't me personally for you.

Speaker 8 (02:39:27):
We've been encouraged, you know, in my in my day job,
we've been encouraged to like, you know, we've got a
we've got a version of AI that we're trialing out,
and we're encouraged to use it as as an assistant basically,
which I'm all for that. I think, you know, like
you said, there's lots of perfunctory tasks that really it's
not worth wasting your time on.

Speaker 7 (02:39:45):
Now.

Speaker 8 (02:39:46):
I accept that AI is going to get better and
better and better, but I still, well, I know, I
know the stuff that use AI to write things, and
I know I know it's not good enough. And I think,
I mean, I have a deep theological conviction on this. Anyway,
human beings are made in the image and likeness of God.

(02:40:08):
That so they're made by a creator to be creative,
and I firmly believe that that is unique to the
human species. And so although machines can imitate, that, can
mimic that can regurgitate, that can put it together in
ways that are really clever, I don't believe it can
chime with essentially the person reading it is a human

(02:40:32):
being and Therefore, in a way, AI might be so clever,
it doesn't connect.

Speaker 6 (02:40:39):
Well, it can't create the human experience because everyone it.

Speaker 7 (02:40:43):
Doesn't understand the human heart, right, and that and that
and that's the kind of that's the that's the gap.

Speaker 8 (02:40:48):
Well, and that's the gap, by the way, where God is.
That's my that's my evangelism. You know that that that
thing you can't put your finger on, that is God
or that is the experience of God in time and space.

Speaker 7 (02:41:01):
And in your life.

Speaker 8 (02:41:02):
And so I don't I'm not threatened by AI in
the sense that it will destroy artists.

Speaker 7 (02:41:08):
It might destroy the world.

Speaker 3 (02:41:12):
Artist as long as we can find a good planet
for them, they'll be okay. I was just thinking of
it's like you talk about the human experience. It's kind
of interesting because, I mean, definitely all storytelling finds its foundation,
it's fundamentals in the human experience. And otherwise, what do
you really have, right what story do you have if
it's not built upon what we can relate to? But

(02:41:37):
you know, right now, AI is basically just an intangible
on a computer screen that could I guess potentially change
theoretically anyway when we actually have robots that are that
have the ability of the five senses combined with something
like a chat shept engine to interact with the world

(02:42:00):
as an individual. That could I would imagine if it
has learning ability, memory ability, and uh, the ability to
reason at least to the degree that AI can combined
with five senses, could shape or develop potentially an artificial consciousness.

(02:42:25):
And that's what we're really worrying. That's what I think
people are really worried about. AI is not the problem.
Artificial intelligence is not the problem because intelligence is not
the problem. What's the problem is can you will it
ever generate artificial consciousness because that's where the real creative
faculties are, That's where the humanness is. I think that

(02:42:45):
horror book, Yeah, there you go. But we just gave
you a good yeah. I mean honestly, when they've already
done ones that were similar. I mean obviously the Terminators,
the Matrix Matrix is another one, probably a better one
on this I robot.

Speaker 7 (02:43:02):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (02:43:03):
And then there was I remember the one with the
kid from Oh another we talked about stories, good stories,
m Night Shyamalan's Oh gosh, yes, the Icy Dead People one.
What's that? What was that called? Sixth sense? Thank you
sixth sense. The kid in that whose name has saved

(02:43:25):
me also, uh, he was in an ai. He was
like a child that you could approach it. He looked
like it was a robot, but he looked like a
real boy. And it was kind of a disturbing film,
as I recall. So, you know, I wonder if we
which I did?

Speaker 7 (02:43:41):
I do?

Speaker 3 (02:43:41):
I mean, it's not a matter of if we are
very quickly approaching the point of technology where manifesting something
like that's going to happen. We're gonna all have our
own little c three pos, you know, cleaning our house
and maybe even cooking our meals. Some are estimating that
within ten years this is going to be a possibility. Obviously,
these things are going to be too expensive, but there'll

(02:44:05):
probably be things you can rent. So like you want
you want to you want one of these bots that
that cleans your house, cooks your meals, runs the home
when you're gone. You know, you pay four hundred dollars
a month you get this, you know, several hundred thousand
dollars machine that you know comes in and does this
and lives with you and interacts with you, and you
can talk to it and basically having a robot butler,

(02:44:27):
but it will have all the senses of a human
being and then the ability to create artificial logic and intelligence.
So would that create artificial consciousness? And what is that like?
I mean, honestly, Star Trek dealt with this with data.
Did you were you a fan of Star Trek Beth.

Speaker 4 (02:44:43):
You know it's funny.

Speaker 5 (02:44:44):
I my brother's watched it, so every now and then
I would kind of spy on it.

Speaker 4 (02:44:48):
But I was not a dedicated Trekky by any stretch
of the means. But the topic that, I mean, everything
you talk about fascinates me along those lines about you know,
consciousness and and even the morality like what are we
I mean, I'm the kind of person like I kind
of like anthropomorphize everything, Like I talked to my car
and I have feelings if my car gets stented, I'm like, oh,

(02:45:10):
you know, so I feel like there were these robot
robotic intelligences, I would feel like when do we feel
like we're Oh, I'm we feel ethically.

Speaker 5 (02:45:18):
Bound at them too, Like, you know, what do we do?

Speaker 4 (02:45:21):
What's the morality of when we create a consciousness and
how we treat these robotic creatures.

Speaker 5 (02:45:25):
And right this whole.

Speaker 3 (02:45:28):
The reason I bring up Star Trek along the lines
of what you just said is that one thing that
Star Trek did very well from a storytelling vantage. But
I'm just looking at strictly from storytelling, right, whether it
was like whether it's just the words on a page
or or what they actually produced for the show, they
did a remarkably good job, particularly not today. Now it's

(02:45:51):
just all lasers and spaceships blowing up and it's all
just like it's it's it's action, but no substance. Before,
you know, during Star Trek's golden age, from which I
would argue, yes, before it went Marvel, I would say
from the eighties stories garbage, eighties and nineties was Star

(02:46:11):
Trek's golden age. In my opinion, they dealt with very
sophisticated ethical situations that the future could bring about. And
what's earially striking about it is that I never would
have I always thought when I was a kid watching it,
it was so cool that you could talk to the
computer and it was just like it would just tell
you whatever you needed to know and it would get

(02:46:34):
you that information do these things, and how cool would
that be? How cool would that be? To have, you know,
be able to say, hey, computer, do this, this, this
and this, and then it just it tells you and
it does it. And how I mean, we're we're there,
We're we're actually at that point. So much of Star
Trek's technology has become real that now, so much of

(02:46:54):
Star Trek's ethical dilemmas that that technology presented is something
we're actually going to face in our lifetime. So one
of the things they dealt with was the artificial life form,
the Android Data, which is a big popular character on
the next generation of Star Trek. That was the one
that ran in the eighties, predominantly finished in the late

(02:47:16):
in the in the early nineties, but it ran from
I don't know, it was eighty seven to ninety four.

Speaker 7 (02:47:22):
I think the best series of Star Trek.

Speaker 3 (02:47:25):
Well, they're all well, Deep Space is really good too,
Deep Space is really good. I mean, they're all good
in their own way. But the next generation dealt with yeah,
oh yeah, you gotta be, you gotta be. But the
the the Data is is you know, one of these
stories focuses on whether or not he's the property of
Starfleet or is he because he's a he's a he's

(02:47:48):
a lieutenant commander in Starfleet. So he went through academy
and he was able to He does everything that they
can do, even much much better because he's got a
positronic brain, is able to process things that that you know,
super speeds and everything else. He's kind of indestructible largely.
You know, he can get he can get damaged and repaired,

(02:48:10):
you know where most people would die in those scenarios.
So he's got his benefits to having him. But Starfleet
wants to study him because he's the only one of
his kind. No one knows how the person who created
him was able to make him, and they want to
study him so that they can build more of these,
so that every ship in every starship in Starfleet can
have their own android officer that can help with those

(02:48:32):
kinds of things that the Enterprise enjoys by having data involved.
And so one of the stories is about whether or
not he's the property of Starfleet or is he his
own person, And so it goes to court essentially, you know,
and then ruling is that he is a sentient life form,

(02:48:57):
not organic, but sentient in living. So it begs the
question if we can get to that level of sophistication
of data, and all the evidence is suggesting that we
are very much on track within our lifetime to see
that that we will see maybe better than data.

Speaker 7 (02:49:14):
I remember, I remember that episode, and I think, yeah,
and what's interesting about that is the only people who
could make that judgment with human beings data himself can't
make that judgment.

Speaker 8 (02:49:27):
And so I think it's just that's just a really
intriguing suspension. Well, where you have this debate about whether
someone's sentient or not actually oh sorry, whether he's a
life form in his own being as opposed to being
propercy and yet yeah, the only people that could make
that decision are the non that inorganic life forms.

Speaker 3 (02:49:51):
Like it's it's just an interesting, very interesting tension, and
it shows the power of Riley in fiction and being
able to explore ideas in a realistic way that we'll
give you some ideas, now, yeah, I'm telling you so,
I mean, I mean, I don't know Beth you ever,
I mean, you don't just write horror, So I mean

(02:50:13):
you're you're more diversified of a writer than just I
guess a one trick pony as some as some people might.

Speaker 7 (02:50:19):
Be horror connected, alien I mean.

Speaker 3 (02:50:23):
My gosh, but I mean what I like sci fi
and in in in horror because it allows us to
explore the possibilities of what if without you know, when
we can't like the possibilities of uh is fun. It's
like writing a roller coaster. Like I was saying before,
what makes a roller coaster fun is the fear that

(02:50:45):
you feel even though you can't you know, you know
you're not gonna get hurt. I mean unless something happens
with the ride. But it's that's what's thrilling about it
is that your brain thinks you could get hurt, and
that's good enough for your brain to get the adrenaline rush.
So with story telling, you know what other what other

(02:51:05):
I guess genres have you touched in? And how does
that compared to what you've done with this this horror story.

Speaker 4 (02:51:12):
Yeah, I mean I think like probably, I mean, you know,
there this is such a I always say Jesus term,
but like a genre that I you know, I say
that I've written in previously literary fiction in this sense
that it's just it's more of like very character driven
and it's not it's not a it's not a genre,
so it's not any particular genre. But it's like, to

(02:51:34):
give you an example, my novel in This Ground was
about a grave gigger and he used to be an
indie rocker in his career took a real slide after
the band's lead singer died and the grave digger away
thought really guilty for this, this the singer's death, and

(02:51:54):
so he ends up following his dad and to be
working at the cemetery, and so there's this tension between
him getting back into music and rediscovering that and also
intersecting with all the stories in the cemetery, like there's
a lot of people who are partying there or they're
like grieving, and so it's literary fiction in the sense
that there's no genre. I mean, it wasn't a mystery

(02:52:16):
story or a you know, ghost story, or a thriller
or anything like that.

Speaker 5 (02:52:22):
But I did write I did write a suspense book.

Speaker 4 (02:52:27):
There was a little I had a little bit of
thriller elements to it because I wanted to try that.

Speaker 5 (02:52:30):
But mostly I feel like for me, I just I
kind of get a.

Speaker 4 (02:52:35):
Little idea about something that I've always been pristinance. I've
always been fascinated with graveyards and what's going on, you know,
the what all the stuff that goes on there, which
I spent time with the Gravedigger one time, and he
told me all the crazy stuff that happens, and I thought,
I just have to write a novel about this. So
it is whatever kind of thing interesting and how I
can mind, you know, get interesting characters in that situation

(02:52:56):
and kind of explored that way.

Speaker 7 (02:52:58):
So yeah, I'd also things that aren't that familiar to
other people. I mean, I've spent an inordinate amount.

Speaker 8 (02:53:03):
Of time in graveyards because priest for a long well
as a parish priest for a long time, and sure
I was a policeman, and so yeah, we're kind of
were the weird ones that actually spend you know. I
mean it sounds I don't mean this in any morbid way,
but I always preferred funerals to weddings, you know, because
you can actually have real conversations at funerals, and graveyards

(02:53:25):
are places where you can't escape your own mortality, you know,
And so I think that's where they're so interesting. But
so I can understand the draw to that and why
people would be interested in reading about that, because most
people don't they don't really spend much time there. And
the way we deal with death in post modern culture
is really deeply.

Speaker 7 (02:53:46):
Unhealthy in the West. I mean, we really try to
avoid it altogether.

Speaker 8 (02:53:49):
Let's have a celebration of life and put them in
the in the in the hearse and off they'll go
to be cremated somewhere and I'll just get a pot
of ashes later. And I think that's that disconnection is
really unhealthy. That's not me being opposed to cremation, just
for the record, but you know, the idea that you
wouldn't see it through is I think a real shame.

(02:54:12):
I mean, you know, I'm not judging people for I'm
just saying that I think they're missing out on, you know,
a painful but important process and experience. And yeah, so
there's no mystery to me why people are fascinated by gravy.

Speaker 3 (02:54:28):
Those kinds of story in the stories that include them. Well, Beth,
we're at the end of the show, so I'd like
to give a couple of minutes here for you to,
I guess, tell the audience any thing that you want,
I mean, anything up and coming that you're working on
that you'd like to share or you know, how people
can get in contact with you if you're publisher, anything
that you'd like to share.

Speaker 4 (02:54:47):
Yeah, well, everything you know that I've done and you know,
different like blog posts everything else is on my website,
which is bethcast deal dot com. It has all my
stuff from my books and my musings and various sorts
are up there. And yeah, so that's probably the best
way to get in touch with me and find out
what's going on with me. But yeah, I just I'm

(02:55:08):
so grateful to be on the show. And it was
such a pleasure and I you know, great questions and
I really I really enjoyed our conversation.

Speaker 3 (02:55:15):
So feelings very mutual. Great to meet, it was very great.
We'd love to have you back on maybe you know,
when you finish your next work, if you want to
come on and and talk about it, we'd love to
have you back.

Speaker 4 (02:55:28):
Oh that it would be great.

Speaker 5 (02:55:29):
That would be great.

Speaker 4 (02:55:30):
I'd love that. So I appreciate it, and uh and
uh yeah, just uh I want to tune back in
and you know with you guys too, and follow the
different topics that you're It's very much of interest to me.

Speaker 3 (02:55:42):
So I'm looking forward to say we do and there's
hours of it from from past archives. So you know,
just go to the channel Nikolay and tv on on
YouTube and you'll just go to our website, you know,
Esotericcatholic dot org and just click on the the the
as the Vestiges after Dark link and it'll take you

(02:56:03):
to all of the archives of past shows. We have
covered every topic that you could possibly imagine, so and
there's no stop, there's no limit because there's just so
many things that we can we can discuss. But I
want to again thank you for being with us tonight.
It was absolutely wonderful. You were fantastic and we can't
wait to have you back on. Also want to thank
all of you for listening and tuning in tonight, and

(02:56:27):
I hope you enjoyed it as much as we did,
because this kind of stuff fascinates me. Dealing were talking
about fiction and how it affects people, how it creates realities,
how it changes reality, like we said, but Star Trek
and technology and how we're building these things now, Things
that we never would have thought possible, things that looked
fanciful before are now reality because of fiction. It's more

(02:56:48):
powerful than you think it is. We're not going to
be here next week because well it's Holy Week, okay,
so that takes precedence, as I said at the beginning
of the show. And then we take a week off
after that, so there's two weeks no show, but we'll
be back in three weeks and that's when we will
be covering the subjects of astrology. We'll have a new

(02:57:08):
astrologer here, someone's never been on the show, to talk
about what's going on out there in the stars, and
maybe you'll learn a little bit something about yourself and
we'll see what she says about Neptune in arias. Okay,
But until then, I will see you all out there
in the ether. God bless everyone. Thank you Jamie, thank
you Beth, Father, Chris and Brandon. We really appreciate all

(02:57:32):
of you. And to my audience, take care. God bless.

Speaker 10 (02:58:49):
Sustason is the elish, Indis is the most Tison is
the best. Nations

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Unearthing the Horror of The Inhabitants with Beth Castrodale