Interview with Dr. Tristin Engels

Welcome back to Victimology!

In this week's episode, I am joined by forensic psychologist, Dr. Tristin Engels. Join us as we discuss her career as well as her book, The Power of Truth: The Life of Louis R. Vitullo and the Legacy of the Rape Kit. In 2013, she completed graduate school, and now treats offenders with significantly long, violent, and sexually deviant histories with the hopes of addressing maladaptive behavioral patterns, identifying undiagnosed mental illnesses, and ultimately reducing their risk of re-offending.

Here is her Amazon author page:
https://www.amazon.com/Tristin-Engels/e/B08F2WXLYN%3Fref=dbs_a_mng_rwt_scns_share

You can purchase her book here: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08F2TRHYL/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_hsch_vapi_tkin_p1_i0



Want a chance to win a signed copy of Dr. Engel's book? Keep an eye out for the contest entry on Victimology's social media!



Make sure to check out Ye Old Crime and True Crime Cat Lawyer!

Ye Old Crime- https://www.yeoldecrimepodcast.com/

True Crime Cat Lawyer- https://theoracl3network.com/?page_id=617

Visit theoracl3network.com to check out other awesome indie shows!

Please make sure to like and follow Victimology on social media as well as subscribing to Victimology on your favorite podcast platform.

Victimology is always accepting case suggestions, please reach out via email or social media.

Episode Transcript

(00:06):
Due to the graphic nature and contentof this podcast, listener discretion is advised.

(01:11):
Welcome back to Victimology. I'm yourhost, Melissa Lee. I hope
everyone out there in podcast land isdoing just swell, and please tell me
you all are continuing to wash yourhands for the love of God. Well,
it's been a hot second since anythinghas been released on this podcast,

(01:36):
so I'm so excited to share today'sepisode with you guys since it's been a
hot second. A couple of lifeupdates for me. I actually started a
new job, which I'm really enjoying. It's just a very busy My time
is taken up quite a bit,but that's okay because I like what I'm
doing, so that's exciting. I'man office manager, so that's cool.

(02:00):
Otherwise, then I will be finishingschool this fall, which I'm really excited
about. I actually ended up changingmy degree, which you know, sometimes
you just have to do, butI will be getting a minor in criminal
justice, so I'm pretty excited aboutthat, really excited about my courses,
and yeah, I'm really excited tograduate obviously. So before we get into

(02:23):
this episode, I do have acouple promos I'd like to play for you
guys. The first one is forTrue Crime Cat Lawyer. Check it out.
Hi there, my name's Else andI am a lawyer in the Pacific
Northwest. I host this podcast,True Crime Cat Lawyer, with my co
host Winston my cat. She isa mustache, bow tide, fierce little

(02:50):
ball of SaaS, and we bothcome to you every other Thursday telling some
stories from our hometown of the PacificNorthwest. We try to cover cases from
Oregon, Washington, Alaska. We'rehoping to cover some from Canada soon,
and we just like telling crime storiesthat are lesser known in the true crime

(03:13):
community, but we do also coversome of the big ones. And if
you are interested in learning more aboutour podcast, Truecrime Cat Lawyer, you
can head over to our website TruecrimecatLawyer dot com, or you can send
us a quick email at Truecrimecat Lawyerat gmail dot com. We're also on

(03:34):
Instagram and Twitter, and we areavailable on pretty much every podcast platform that
you will listen to. We hopeyou enjoy what you hear and we hope
you'll tune in. Thanks at Lastreally does a great job of telling the
different cases very thoroughly, and ofcourse Winston, the co host is absolutely

(03:57):
amazing. Lucy is a big fanand if you don't know who Lucy as,
she is my stinky little cat,but yeah, give her a listen.
In fact, she just covered theLewis Clark Valley serial Killer, which
is a case that's near and dearto my heart, So definitely go and
give her a listen. And youcan check out the links down below to
find her. And she's a showon the Oracle Network as well. Here

(04:17):
is our next promo from ye oldCrime podcast. Do you love true crime
but are looking for something different?It sounds like a sitcom. It does
handers the kind of assholes teach youprobably leave them a little. Do you
like learning about cases so off thewall they can't possibly be true? Her

(04:38):
wig is enormous, but it islifted off her head by a lucky Do
you love history but want to hearabout what they didn't teach you in school?
It's just gotta say almost where youhang your horns? Sign? Do
you like laughing awkwardly about cases thatare bizarre and a little strange? They'd
be able to wield so many nusfor a little parts. Then we have

(05:02):
the podcasts for you. Join meLindsay and me Madison for Ye Old Crime,
where we discuss the funny, strange, and obscure crimes of yesteryear.
Listen every Wednesday wherever you get yourpodcasts, and we'll see you next time
with another tale as old as Crime. Ye Old Crime is actually the podcast

(05:24):
of the month for July for theOracle Network. If you have not given
them a listen yet, please do. They are so funny and so informative.
I really have grown to love thispodcast, and I really think you
guys will like it too, Sogive them a listen. And as always,
if you're looking for a more amazingpodcast, make sure to check out

(05:44):
the Oracle Network and That's Oracle withthethree dot com to check out all of
the Oracle Network's amazing podcasts. Withoutfurther ado, let's go ahead and get
into this week's episode. My guestthis week is a Chicago, land native
and a practicing forensics psychologist. Sheis also the granddaughter of Lewis Vatulo,
who is credited of working on famouscases such as John Wayne Gacy and Richard

(06:06):
Speck. He is also credited aspartially creating the rape Kit. Her book
The Power of Truth discusses Vatulo's storyand legacy of said kits. Without further
ado, this is my interview withdoctor Tristan Angles. All right, so

(06:51):
with me on this week's episode.I am joined by doctor Tristan Angles.
Doctor Angles, thank you so muchfor joining me on this week's episode.
Thank you for having me. I'mso excited to be here. So,
doctor Engels, why don't you tellus a little bit about yourself in your
background. Sure, So, Iam a clinical forensic psychologist and I'm originally

(07:13):
from the Chicago area. I gotinto this field because of my grandfather.
My maternal grandfather is Louis R.Vattullo. And for those who don't know,
Louis Arvatullo is the co creator ofthe rape kit and he was also
a sergeant of the Chicago Police Department. He later became the chief micro analyst
of the Crime Lab and he workedon some pretty notorious cases like John Wayne

(07:38):
Gacy and Richard Speck for example.And like I said, co created the
rape kit. And so I wasvery close to him growing up. I
spent so much time with him.We were we were buds. Well,
lots of good stories there and hewas kind of by inspiration to get into
this field. I would always askhim questions. I was always curious about
his job and what he had done, and he would still lecture when I

(08:01):
was when he was alive, hewould lecture. He was retired, but
he would lecture at different universities andcolleges and police academies and teaching crime scene
investigation. And one of the thingsthat he told me that always stuck with
me was that no matter what hedid to advance forensic science and to improve

(08:22):
the likelihood that offenders would get caughtand identified, he would see a revolving
door of the same ones who wouldgo through the system and come out and
come right back in. And henever understood why they weren't deterred by consequences.
And during his time, you know, in law enforcement, there wasn't
a lot of emphasis on focusing ontheir behaviors or their mental health and the

(08:43):
things there that might contribute to theircrime. So that is why I got
into this field, and I amI've been working in law for forensics rather
for about thirteen years now, Soyeah, that's me. Wow, what
a resource to have available to you, Yes, Like, holy holy moly,

(09:05):
Yeah, that's pretty crazy. Yeah, I was pretty intense. He
had a den in his house andI used to always kind of sneak in
there because he had like a microscopeand he had slides, and he had
all these fancy gadgets and it wasjust like a mystical mystery to me all
the time. He was like,Dick Tracy. Yeah, wow, So

(09:26):
why don't you tell us a littlebit about yourself in the forensic psychology now,
is there anything that you're like subspecialized in or anything like that.
No, just forensic psychology. SoI've worked with basically, it's working in
the criminal justice system. So Istarted working with parole's individuals who are paroled

(09:50):
and trying to get jobs and bekind of reacclimated back into civilization. So
I've worked with them in that aspect. I've worked with people who had just
been released on probation and were inthe community and needing a little assistance.
I've worked at juveniles in the justicesystem, whether they were in juvenile detention
centers or they were in juvenile youthcamps, or even on probation, and

(10:15):
there, instead of doing treatment andlife skills, I was doing more assessments
that were court ordered by the courtsbecause they wanted to understand a little bit
more about what was going on thosewith the juveniles, you know, what's
leading them to behave this way andhow can we intervene. So I did
a lot of court assessments there andI from there I worked with veterans as

(10:37):
well, who were on parole andwho weren't on parole, and I did
PTSD screenings. And from there Ilanded in the Department of Corrections and I
was working there for about seven yearsdoing working with maximum security inmates, and
my role there was providing individual treatmentgroup treatment evaluation and diagnosing treatment team meetings

(11:03):
we would do. I would dopre sentencing evaluations, and I would do
some parole evaluations, not for theboard, but for inmates that were actually
already going to be parole but hadcertain crimes that the courts wanted me to
assess, mostly crimes against children.And then I also did use of force
crisis calls. A lot of work, a lot of stuff, yeah,

(11:26):
yeah, a lot of stuff.Seen it all. Yeah, So what
is one of the things that youhave seen, I mean, if you
can share it, of course,what's one of the most shocking things you've
learned while working as a forensic psychologist. I would say the most shocking thing

(11:48):
in general is that our criminal justicesystem is pretty flawed. And as a
psychologist, you know a forensic psychologistthat got into this field with the goal
of helping recidivism, which is reducingthe likelihood that they'll be reoffending upon release,
so lowering the instances of crime orthe prevalence of crime, and trying

(12:09):
to do rehabilitation efforts in that way. And what we know as psychologists is
that punishment in general is not adeterrent for behavior. What we know about
this is that reinforcing the behaviors youwant to see is how you change behavior

(12:30):
for the long term. And ourjustice system is built on punishment. So
when they're in prison and we're tryingto teach them pro social ways of handling
things, they're not always reinforced theway that they should, so then they
revert to old, maladaptive behaviors toget what they need, and that's manipulation
or acting out or violence, andit gets results. Even in prison.

(12:54):
We respond to that when we shouldbe responding more to the pro social way
that they do things. But yeah, it's like built on punishment and that
needs a bit of reform. Andthat was the shocking part for me.
Yeah, I know, I'm inone of my criminology classes I've taken.
The actual discussion of reform in thecriminal justice system is something that's kind of

(13:16):
sweeping the nation. Now we cankind of say, yeah, so,
um, well, one another thingI can add to the shocking part of
it is and this, you know, for to get to where I am,
you know, we have to gothrough a lot of education, a
lot. You have to get yourundergrad, master's, doctorate, and it's

(13:37):
a lot. It's a lot ofeducation, it's a lot of applied learning,
it's a lot of life experience thatgoes into that. And the difference
between that and let's say correctional staffis that some of them, most of
them don't even need a degree.You can get in with a high school
diploma or a ged to become acorrectional officer or a police office. And

(14:01):
that has caused some issues there toothat I think need reform. That's actually
really shocking, right, that's veryshocking. Yeah, because they go straight
from high school into the academy andthen they get into a position where they're
making they could make six figures workingover time, they get great benefits,

(14:22):
and they have no life experience,and here they are with all this power
and authority, and yeah, it'syou can see you can see how that
can create some issues as well,of course, and we're seeing that in
society nowadays. We are, weare, it's becoming more prevalent. Yeah,
and we have, at least inthe state of California where I'm at,

(14:43):
we do peace officer screening. SoI'm even certified to do that for
pre employment. So if they areapplying for a job and a peace officer
position, they have to pass apass a psychological assessment as a part of
other assessments that they need to pass. And the problem with that, I
mean, that's great and we needto keep that, but the problem is

(15:03):
is that it stops there. There'sno periodic check ins with them to make
sure that they're still fit for theposition, that the job hasn't affected them.
But they don't need a break,you know, to prevent things like
we've been seeing in the news.So I'm trying to lobby for some change
on that. I think that thereshould be some periodic fitness for duty evaluations

(15:24):
done to make sure that they're stillsafe to be a safety officer, right
right. And I think that's reallycool that you're looking at it, you
know, from not just the youknow, criminal standpoint or parley or you
know, person responsible for crime whatnot, but you're also looking at it from

(15:45):
a point of view from the actuallike law enforcement side. Yeah. I
think that's so important. Yeah,it really is. Yeah. So um
as far as and you kind ofmentioned talking about your school and whatnot,
So like, let's say we havea listener who's interested in potentially becoming a

(16:06):
forensic psychologist, what exactly would yourecommend they do? Oh okay, so
you know, it's been a whilesince I've been in grad school, but
I'll explain my path and what Iwould look for if I was hiring or
trying to mentor anybody. Firstly,you need to have your undergraduate degree in
psychology, and it doesn't matter ifit's a Bachelor of Science or a Bachelor

(16:30):
of Arts. It just has tobe in psychology to cover all the prerequisites
that you would need to get intograd school. I've been getting this question
a lot because I am on TikTokand my handle is doctor angles and I
get a lot of aspiring students whoare interested in this field asking me the
same questions, so I try togo through it there as well. But

(16:52):
the more important thing is you've gotto get You have to get that undergraduate
done, and then from there,I would highly recommend if you want to
do the forensic aspect of assessments whereyou work with the court system and you
do incompetency evaluation or sanity evaluations orbe an expert witness, expert testimony,
things like that, if you wantto get into that, you need to

(17:14):
have your doctorate. You can't dothat with a master's. So if you
want to pursue and become a psychologist, you have to be you have to
get a doctorate, and that's inthe US. I don't know about other
countries. So first identify what itis that you want to do, because
if you don't want to do allof that, and you just want to
do some counseling in this field orwork in the field, then a master's
would be fine. You can gointo a master's in criminal psychology or a

(17:37):
forensic psychology and worked with that.But if you want to provide clinical care,
and you want to do the assessmentprocess, you need to get into
a clinical psychology and grad school orclinical forensic psychology and grad school. So
what I did is I did myundergraduate. I got that in psychology.
I worked for a few years andI actually went straight from my undergrad into

(17:59):
the doctorate program. And in orderto get into that from a bachelor's level,
I had to have work experience.I had to have a certain score
on the GRI, which is theGraduate Results Evaluation or I can't remember exactly
what it stands for, it's beena while, but you have to get
a certain score on that. Youhave to pass writing samples, past interviews,

(18:25):
and then you can get into thedoctorate straight from your bachelor now and
you don't have to go through themaster's program, and it saves you time
and it saves you money. Andif your ultimate goal is to be a
psychologist, and that would be myrecommendation. Nice, Okay, what's one
common misconception about your career? Ohthat they think that's a great question.

(18:48):
I often get asked if I worklike Criminal Minds the show, or I
do criminal profiling, And although theoreticallyI could, those jobs are actually done
strictly through the FBI, so youhave to get you have to become a
special agent, and you have towork for the Behavioral Analysis Unit in Virginia
to do that specific work. SoI don't I'm not working as a criminal

(19:11):
minde star that. And then alsopeople think that I go to crime scenes
and I don't. I'm not acrime scene investigator. So strictly forensic psychologists,
I work it with the minds,and I work with people in this
criminal justice system who have already beensentenced. Generally, it's so funny how

(19:32):
media can misconstrue so much about differentroles. I'll even sometimes get like,
are you reading my mind right now? And I'm like, what psychologist?
That psychic? I get that.I'll let do Oh my gosh, I
think there's there's something. There's somemove. Oh it's Anchorman too. I
don't know if you've ever seen that, but there's a scene where he's talking

(19:56):
to a character who's a psychologist andhe's like, you're reading my mind right
now, aren't you that exact thing? Yeah? And I just look at
like, no, it doesn't worklike that. I wish I make my
job so much easier. Oh,I bet Oh my gosh, what's it
like working with criminals? You know, what is what's going through your head

(20:19):
when you're working one on one withsomeone? Yeah, so I would.
I had been working in maximum securityprison for the last probably five years,
so I was working with inmates whoare doing who had life sentences or just
very long sentences with and they eitherhave parole or they don't have paroles.

(20:41):
So there's a lot more risks involvedworking with them, especially if they're doing
life and they don't really have anythingto lose in their minds, so you
know, the volatileness, the unpredictability, it's high. You never know where
their mindset is. I think oneof the biggest misconceptions that people have is
that they're always problematic to work with, and the reality is is they really

(21:07):
really thrive in having mental health professionals. They need structure, they need boundaries,
they need the right reinforcements, theyneed you know, they need all
of that because it's been lacking intheir life, and they might give us
a hard time. They're going totest your limits, They're going to test
your boundaries, They're going to doall of that. But because we know
exactly how to set them the rightway. They respond so well, and

(21:32):
they're very respectful of that because theyappreciate it. So I think a lot
of people assume that every day I'mlike dodging attempts on my life, and
that's not necessarily the reality. Mostof the time, they're very respectful.
But then there are a handful thatare not. There are a handful that

(21:53):
are a little bit more concerning,a little bit more abrasive or violence towards
us, but those are few andfar between. They're not the majority.
So there have been times where I'vebeen a little concerned about my safety.
I mean, every day we're verysituationally aware. We're taught to be.

(22:15):
You know, we can't let anybodywalking behind us. Anytime we go in
and out of a room within themate, they have to go ahead of
us. They should be seated insidethe room, and we should be seated
at the door. The problem isis that not all rooms are set up
that way, So oftentimes I'm insidethe room and there at the door,
and we meet with them one onone without custody in the room, or

(22:36):
we meet with them and run groupswithout custody in the room because of confidentiality,
which puts us at a higher risk, but there's always staff nearby.
We have alarms, we have whistles, we wear vests to keep us safe,
and I think I've only had topress my alarm probably four times in
seven years. So yeah, Ithink it's not it's it's definitely not for

(23:00):
everybody. It's a pretty toxic environmentbecause it's, like I said, built
on punishment, and it's very negativeand there's a lot of negative and pessimistic
views that come through there. Butin general, working with the inmates has
not been tasking. It's trying tointerface with other departments that can be tasking

(23:25):
for me and for most of us, just because we all have different ideas
and how things should be handled.So you know, custody's perspective is not
always going to match the mental healthperspective, and we get a lot of
pushback sometimes. Yeah, I meanit's overall in terms of as a professional,
I've seen every possible disorder throughout theDSM. I've encountered every possible crime

(23:51):
you can think of. I've it'salways every day was a learning experience,
and I not just not just atthe job itself, but through the different
inmates. I'd meet I would learnsomething from. So, yeah, can
you tell us about those four timesthat almost had to push or you have
had to push? Yeah, Ican. The first time that I remember

(24:18):
pushing my button in this particular setting, I was meeting with an inmate who
was sitting stated across from me,and he had a table. There was
a table between us, and soI couldn't see. I generally like to
make sure that their hands are onthe table if that's happening, so I
know that they're not doing something withtheir hands. And so I noticed that
his hands kept teetering down under thetable, and I kept telling him he

(24:44):
needed to keep his hands on thetable, and he would bring them back
up, but then he put themback down, and turns out he was
using them to, you know,do things that he shouldn't be doing with
himself in front of a female staffmember. So I had to press the
alarm in that situation to get custodyto come. The second time I pressed
my alarm, an inmate had hadrazors hidden in his in his wheelchair and

(25:08):
his hair and pulled them out andhe didn't use them on me. He
used them on himself. But itwas it was not it was superficial when
they custody intervened immediately, which wasgreat. They are very quick to do
so. UM and he was fine. He just he didn't had need any
sutures or anything like that. Thethird time was another indecent exposure incident,

(25:34):
and the fourth time was, UM, I witnessed, I witnessed an attempted
murder and I had to press myalarm. Oh my gosh. Yeah,
it's like I said, it's notit's a toxic environment. You know,
every day alarms would go off forvarious reasons, and mats fighting each other

(25:55):
and mades fighting staff U manned down. We call it if there's a medical
emergency or overdose something like that.So every day the alarms go off multiple
times a day, so it's almostlike second nature over time, and every
day you witness something that's you reallywish you didn't witness. You didn't wake

(26:18):
up thinking oh I'm going to seethis today or you know, but you
do, and it's important to engagein self care so that it doesn't affect
you. Yeah. Yeah, Sothose are the four times that I can
think of. Yeah, thank youfor sharing those, because you know,
if people are interested in you know, becoming a part of this community,

(26:38):
like actually joining the career field.You know, they need to know the
nitty gritty, They need to knowthe risks that are involved. So thank
you for sharing those. Yeah,of course. And if they do join
this career field, they don't haveto work in prison. I mean,
you can work on court panels,you can do private practice. There's so
much you can do. You don'thave to work in prison. But I
wanted to for the experience, varience, and I got an experience is what

(27:02):
I got. Yeah, right,right, So with you being so experienced
in the actual UM you know,would we call it like corrections or yeah,
correction corrections? With you being soexperienced in the corrections, and I
know we've kind of talked about reformand whatnot, and with it being such
a toxic environment, what are somethings that you would professionally recommend ultimately changing

(27:29):
Like let's say it was you know, corrections run by doctor Engles, Like
what would you goodness, what wouldyou change? Oh? All right,
So I would change the requirements toobtain positions there. So, like we
talked about before, UM, Iwould require that if you want to become
a peace officer, that you haveof undergraduate degree in criminal justice or something

(27:53):
along those lines, with some workexperience in there, to show that you
have been self sufficient and self disciplinedand have some life experience under your belts,
because taking on that amount of powerand control and is a lot to
do without some perspective. And Iwould also try to change up. So

(28:21):
I don't know if you've heard ofthe Stanford experiment. It was a psycho
psychological experiment that happened years back.I can't remember when exactly, but it
was basically stimulating a prison where theywould have met like participants who were custody
and participants who were inmates, andit got so extremely violent that they had

(28:45):
to stop the study before it couldcomplete because of the harm it was causing.
People took on that role of anofficer so strongly and they started to
actually behave inhumanely to the participants playingthe inmates. That is something that actually
can happen in reality. So Ithink that I would implement checks and balances

(29:08):
there to make sure, like youknow, that they're not misusing their power,
because that happened so frequently. Whata lot of times people in law
enforcement might say, yeah, butthey're you know what, they're inmates,
they're disrespectful, they're this, theydid that, they did this, and

(29:29):
it's like, okay, that's alltrue, but this is this is inhumane
and and in doing this, you'reactually causing more risks to the institution's safety
and security and that of everybody init. So they don't think of a
bigger picture. So and I'm notsaying that's the case for every custody officer,

(29:52):
because it certainly is not, butit is something that we've seen time
and again in police departments and incorrections. So I would implement more screening
measures, and I would implement whatI mentioned before is the post employment evaluations
that would happen periodically. I thinkI might require that they attend treatment,

(30:14):
every staff member, not just custody, that they go to treatment, just
to make sure that they're working throughwhatever traumas are vicarious traumas they might have
encountered on the job. I wouldchange how the system is built on just
punishment, so trying to reinforce thebehaviors you want to see. You know,

(30:37):
it's the same as if you wereparents with young children or I know,
this is a terrible analogy but havinga puppy and trying to train the
puppy, it's all behavioral interventions.If you are constantly rewarding your child when
they temper tantrum, you give inand you give them what they're tantruming about,
they're learning that, Okay, thisis what I've got to do to
get what I need. But ifyou reward them when they ask you the

(31:00):
way you want them to be askingyou, then they're going to do that
instead of acting out. So that'sthe same principle that should apply in corrections.
If we want to rehabilitate maladaptive behavioralpatterns, that we need to reinforce
the behaviors we want to see,and in order to do that, we
all have to be on the samepage, and we're not, and that's

(31:22):
what I would like to see change. Now, do you primarily work with
male inmates or do you also workwith female as well? That's a great
question. I worked in reception center, which but and I worked in maximum
security, but both were strictly maleinstitutions. So I have not worked with
females in corrections, but I haveworked with females on parole or probation.

(31:48):
What are some of the main differencesbetween the two, just out of curiosity,
like in your own experience. Sobecause I haven't worked with them in
corrections, I can't say with certainty, but what I have heard from people
who have is that in men's institutionsthings are segregated strictly based on race,
in gang affiliation, and in women'sprisons it's more of what they would call

(32:14):
nests, where it's like they gettogether as like matriarchies, and then they
take on and they help newer people, and it's more. Yeah, it's
more of like a matriarch and andthere's violence there. Two. There's definitely
violence there. Two. There's definitelyhustles, there's definitely love triangles and all

(32:34):
that. It's the same in men'sprison, but men's it's more it's more
about asserting power, astarting control,asserting domination, and segregation and alienation.
That's the main difference that I've heardover time. Yeah. Interesting, Wow,
Yeah, it is now. Iknow you had mentioned too, you've

(32:57):
worked with inmates who merely had crimesagainst children, right, Oh, I
would be the courts if an inmatehad crimes against children and their parole there
were paroling, meaning they were alreadygiven parole. They don't have to go
to board. They've got it.They'd be discharging. But on parole,
the court would order an assessment fromone of us just to say how we

(33:21):
can ensure that they get the righttreatment and supervision outside of prison so that
they are not reoffending against children.So I would do those assessments, and
they weren't frequent, but I did. I probably did maybe ten, maybe
ten. Okay, Yeah, werethere any common themes you noticed among those

(33:45):
ten in terms of what caused themto commit the crime? A lot of
I would say that a lot ofit had to do a substance use.
So most of the crimes that Ican recall were either were an inmated like
shaken the baby in the baby headlong term effects, or they left the

(34:07):
child in the car, were drivingin the car while under the influence,
or carrying narcotics in the car withthe children, and so it was you
know, child endangerment or child abuse. And I would say in each case
there was a theme of substance abusein dependency there where that was clouding judgment,

(34:29):
reasoning, and emotional regulation. Andyeah, so it was that also
anger and unresolved issues of their own. Would you say that those were really
hard to work with? Yeah?Yeah, those were definitely hard to work
with. Yah, But I didI felt some reward in being allowed to

(34:52):
do those assessments because I got toexplicitly state that they need this amount of
therapy, they need this amount ofanger manager, they need to not be
around children, and if they haveminers, then they need to be supervised.
And you know, I got toput limitations and strict recommendations in there,
which made me feel like, Okay, I know the court's going to

(35:14):
listen to this, so at leasthopefully that's helping prevent any recurrence. Right.
Have there ever been any situations andI don't know if you can share
this where the court did not takewhat you had suggested. I don't know
honestly really, because we don't followup. Once they're gone, I have

(35:37):
no way of they're not in thesystem anymore, I have no way of
checking on them. Wow, they'reout of the institution. So yeah,
I would have no way of followingup, which which is sad, but
it's also the same as when youknow I'm working When I worked with juveniles
in the justice system, I didso many suspected child abuse reports because of

(35:58):
the things that they would share withme, and that was hard for me.
Because I submit those reports and itgoes into the ABYSS, I have
no idea what happens. And sincemy job there was just to strictly provide
a psychological assessment and a report tothe court, I didn't have treatment with
them, so it's not like Ifollowed up with them. So whenever we

(36:21):
do a suspected child abuse report,at least here in California, we call
it in and then we do awritten one within thirty six hours, and
then at some point I'll get somethingin the mail that will tell me whether
it was substantiated or unfounded or closed, you know, and that's it.
That's all I'll know. So it'svery similar. Once they leave the institution,

(36:42):
I have no way of following howthey do, really, and so
I just like to hope that they'redoing well and something that they had learned
or some kind of interaction that I'vehad in that particular or case had a
positive impact. Is that something thatyou would wish to change or are you

(37:07):
okay with the fact that you know, once once it's off on its own,
it's off on its own. Isaid, it's a mix. That's
a I have mixed feelings on thatbecause I think that if if I submit
a report, let's say, goingback to child abuse reporting, if I
was to submit a report and thenfollow the case after that, I could
see myself getting way too invested inthe case where it actually becomes problematic in

(37:35):
terms of my objectivity. So Ithink that it's partially a good thing that
once it's reported, it goes intoanother department's hands to manage. But then
I also know that there are flawsin our child and Family services departments as
well, and you know, sothat's that's that's a question that I have

(37:58):
mixed feelings on because we do haveto maintain boundaries in following somebody's progress post
treatment or post interaction is not necessarilyethical in a way. I know it
seems like it would be, butwe have to maintain we can't have multiple
relationships, we can have conflicts ofinterest, and if we're following following up

(38:20):
when our job has been completed,then that could preach those ethical laws.
Right, Yeah, that's really interesting. That's yeah. Yeah, I don't
know if you've heard of that GabrielFernandez case. Yes, I was actually
just I was just going to saywith that, Yeah, that case is
so sad. Oh, that casestill haunts me. I had I've had

(38:42):
to be clear, I've not hadany role in that case whatsoever. I
just you know, I heard iton the news and I got I got
so affected by it, and Ikept following it, and I could see
myself doing that if I was working, if that, if that child was
on my case load, let's say, if I was in DCFS, which
I'm not. And I don't sayI could do and shout out to those
who do, because that is sometough work and that's hard. But I

(39:06):
saw I still haunted by that case, and I could see myself like getting
a little too intrusive and abrasive andwhy are you doing anything, you know,
and blurring the boundary on that.So, yeah, that case is
that was so tragic and it's sosad because there's thousands of Gabriels out exactly.

(39:29):
It's not just an isolated incident.It's it's everywhere. And it's like
with TikTok too, there's so manylike victims coming forward now sharing their stories
of like child abuse, and likeit is just crazy, Like it's crazy
to me how prevalent it is likeit is. And that's one thing when
people ask me, like how doyou work with serial killers or serial rapists

(39:51):
or gang members, etc. AndI, you know, that's a hard
question to answer. It's a veryloaded one, it's a long one.
But I also remind them that theywere kids that went through some serious stuff
too. You know. I've hadsome some some people on my caseload who
would tell me stories that would justrip your heart out. Yeah, you

(40:12):
know, would you say that's acommon theme. Oh yeah, Yeah,
there's abuse or neglects for sure.And I think in a lot of cases,
the parenting styles alone affected how theythe maladaptive behaviors that they created.
You know, if you've got anauthoritarian parent who's never warm and it's always
punishing you and you know, andnever giving you a connection between why you're

(40:37):
why they're being punished and what youdid, if you grow up being angry
and not sure how to even existin the world, you know, um
so yeah, and then the neglectA lot of parents, a lot of
them had parents who had their ownstruggles with addiction or um or they were
just like a single parent working threejobs to support because they're other parent wasn't

(41:00):
there, and as a result,they had a very permissive parenting style where
you know, they didn't have theability to really apply rules and set structure,
and the child would just go offand do things to keep themselves busy
and occupied and less bored, andthen doing so, they encounter people in

(41:20):
the community who drag them into gangsand you know, so there is a
huge Yeah, there's a definite commontheme in the nurturing part of growing up
in their parents or their caregivers andhow that interaction played out, do you
know, just out of curiosity Andit's okay if you don't, like,
did they tell anybody when they weregrowing up of these instances? No,

(41:45):
that's so sad they did not.That's another aspect of that I think.
I mean, I shouldn't say nofor all of them. I think there
are some that had tried. Butbut again, that's such a common theme
where if there's some kind of abuseon the home and a child tries to
say something, family immediately wants todisbelieve the child because it's so much easier

(42:07):
to accept that the child would lieabout this than to accept that their loved
one would do something like that,and then the burden that they think is
put on them to do too andyou know, interact with or intervene rather
on that situation and how it coulddisrupt the family. So in doing that,

(42:27):
it makes a child feel like they'renot believed that they're responsible, and
now they're responsible for the anger orthe reaction that they got when they shared
that information, you know what Imean. It's like they're projecting like they're
anger back on the child for tellingthem such a thing. And so now
it's just teaching them that Okay,I can't share this, I shouldn't talk

(42:51):
about it. People aren't going tobelieve me. And now I feel responsible
for what happened to me and thefact that I just angered so and so
for telling them about it. It'sterrible. Yeah, so everyone listening.
If you know a child that comesto you and tells you that they're being
abused in some way, or somethingis happening that's making them uncomfortable, you

(43:14):
listen to them, You believe them. You do not get angry, because
they will interpret that anger as somethingthey caused, and you support them.
You support them because children don't lieabout those things. Why. It's like,
why would they when they're what youexactly? They don't. It doesn't
work. That doesn't work like that. It's not like a tension seeking behavior,

(43:35):
right, I mean, unless it'slike a sibling rivalry where like so
and so hit me, give memy my you know my gameboy back that
that's different, you know, that'sentirely different. But yeah, something like
that where a family member or aneighbor or somebody did something to them that
made them uncomfortable, whatever that mightbe. It's made them uncomfortable. That's
their feeling and you should take thatand support that. So you've written a

(44:00):
book I have, Yeah, doyou want to talk about that a little
bit? Yeah, I'd love tothank you. So, I actually wrote
a book about my grandfather. It'scalled The Power of Truth. The Life
of Louis Arvatulo and the Legacy ofthe Rape Kit. You can get it
on Amazon. You can also getit through my publishers, which is Genius
Books Publishing, and it just talksabout his life and it talks about how

(44:23):
he came to work become basically aforensic expert in the field standardizing evidence collection
and crime scenes, especially in sexualassault. He co created the rape kit
with a survivor. Her name wasMartha Goddard. Martha had been sexually assaulted.

(44:43):
She called law enforcement. Law enforcementdid not believe her when she showed
shared her story because they said,I believe this is this is her wording
is that they felt that she wasn'tdistressed enough. They made her feel that
if you really were sexually assaulted,you would be much more distressed than you
are. So we believe that thisis a lie. And they did nothing

(45:05):
with it. So Martha Boom thestrength and power she had, she created
the Citizens Committee for Victim Assistance inChicago. It was an organization that she
ran that helped victims of sexual assault. And she started to talk with lawmakers
and law enforcement about the way inwhich they handled sexual assault cases and or

(45:30):
lack thereof to be fair. Andshe learned about my grandfather because he had
been becoming someone wat have an expertin his field of forensic science and crimes
and investigation. My grandfather actually wroteor co wrote several books on the topic
and was kind of like the goto person in Chicago at the time.

(45:50):
So she approached him about it andsaid, hey, this is what happened
to me. This is what There'sno investigation happening in these cases. There's
no standard way of handling them,and we need some reform here. And
together they interviewed attorneys, they intervieweddetectives, they interviewed everybody that would be
involved in a crime to make surethat they created something that would stand up

(46:14):
in court. And he created therape kit with her. It was named
after him, initially called the VituloEvidence Collection Kit, and the copyrights were
given to Martha's organizations, so shegot the ultimate credit there and as it
was well deserved. And yeah,so he created the rape kit, and

(46:36):
he worked on some rape cases andhelped put Richard Speck behind bars, and
he was called out of retirement forJohn Wayne Gaysy because he was such an
expert in that case was probably oneof the more horrific ones to hit the
Chicagoland area. And proceeds of eachsale of my book actually go towards ending
the backlock of untested rape kits.So yeah, it's like and win if

(47:00):
you buy this book. That's amazing. Oh my gosh, that is so
cool. Yeah, there's um Idon't know if you know about that backlog,
but in twenty fifteen, CNN interviewedme about it, and it was
about four hundred thousand estimated rape kitsnationwide that had not been tested. And
what we know about this is thatif you test them, you're going to

(47:21):
find the perpetrator. And we've alsofound that it helps exonerate people who are
wrongly accused or wrongly convicted. Sothere's four hundred thousand of these hanging around
not being tested, and that's justthere's no reason for that. So some
states have made a lot of progress, like I read I think yesterday that
Florida has zero right now, zerobacklog rape kits, and they were enacting

(47:45):
some new policies that are helping keepup with that, but there's no federal
system that tracks them to make surethat they're holding the states accountable getting those
tested timely. So right, Yeah, So a portion of each sale of
these books going directly to that effortto get that backlog cleared up and to
address legislation at the federal and statelevels to make sure that backclock doesn't happen

(48:07):
again. So yeah, that's mybook. That is so cool. That
is so cool. So I haveto I have to ask, did you
get to talk to your grandpa aboutlike the John Wayne Gacy case. Did
you get to like hear his storiesabout it? Yes, Oh my gosh.
Were you just like like take allin or yeah, I was,

(48:30):
I took it all in. Iwas just if you had to really pull
out a lot of this from himbecause he didn't freely talk about it.
He definitely never talked about the colorcreation of the rape kit. I think
he felt like that should more goto Martha than him, because she's the
one who came to him. Yeah, she came to him kind of like,
hey, this is a problem,but he never really talked about it.

(48:52):
He did talk about her. Ialways knew who she was. He
never really talked about gay Cy.He didn't talk about Speck. He didn't
really talk much about it. Soin order for me to get that information,
I had to explicitly ask him,And yeah, I talk about that
in my book. I actually recantthe stories he's told me that in my
book, especially about spec and especiallyabout gay Cy because gays they called him

(49:14):
out of retirement for because that casewas so I mean, that's a pretty
big deal. It was huge,right, And you know how it is
in Chicago areas, it's the weatherconditions are intense, and this was like
in the winter months and Gaysy floodedhis basement. There's all kinds of different
components that you have to take intoaccount when you preserve the crime scene.

(49:37):
So they called him out of retirementfor that, and he interviewed Gaycy,
and yeah, it was a prettyintense. I will say that I think
Gaycy is the one that haunts himthe most. Really, Yeah, it
doesn't suppose to me either, Yeah, but yeah, yeah, Gaycy's case

(49:57):
that is that was craziness that hurricaneand Gaycum just and even Richard spacks that
both of them had so many differentlaw enforcement contacts throughout their life for different
things and had evaded somehow because theywould move or something would happen. And
back then, like I think Gayceywas in Waterloo, Iowa for a bit,

(50:22):
had been on parole and then leftIowa to come to Illinois, and
both states did not talk to eachother. So had Iowa known, it
could have violated him for his paroleand he would not have had the opportunity
to kill all of those those hisvictims and he had like ongoing like like

(50:44):
signs of being a sexual devisitor andpredator. Like he had ongoing signs.
And I mean, like, howmany victims were there before he actually like
there were quite a few, quitea few enough to know that there's a
problem here, absolutely, And thatwas the thing is that the different states
and different counties weren't talking to eachother. And now we do that,

(51:07):
which is good. You know.Now you know, different states or agencies
will say, hey, you're wejust saw this in the news and it
sounds similar to ours. Let's talkabout this, and then they'll be able
to put the two together. Andthat's how we're able to track serial killers
a little bit better. But thatwasn't happening back then. And there's so

(51:27):
many times where justice was not reallyserved and gaycy antspec could have been caught
way sooner before you know, theyvictimized as much as they did. So
yeah, so we talked about thatand it's in my book. Is there
any any story that you can giveus a little like tidbit from the book?
I talk about this in my bookbecause it was one of my favorite

(51:50):
stories that he told me. Butit was actually wasn't him that told me.
It was my nana, his wife'sI told me so. Back when
he started to make a lot ofrecord, he started to get a lot
of recognition and traction for his involvementin creating co creating the rape kit and
the Gay Sea case. And hewas lecturing and he had all these books
and he was gaining a lot oftraction, and he garnered the attention of

(52:15):
Frank Sinatra. But oh my gosh, yeah, well, I mean,
my grandfather was Italian and Frank isItalian, and Frank was very active politically.
He would put on like fundraisers andall kinds of things, and you
know, there's some other things thatFrank was involved in theoretically too. But
he somehow got the attention of FrankSinatra. My grandpa or papa. He

(52:37):
loved Frank Sinatra. So Frank invitedhim and my wife to a dinner in
Taylor Street in Chicago, which Idon't know if you were aware, but
that's like little Italy. Yeah,and so my nana and him got all
dressed up to go to dinner withFrank Sinatra. And they get there,

(52:57):
they sit down, everybody's introduced.It's not just Frank and them. It's
a table of people and the waitercomes over to take their order and he
Frank looks at my grandfather and hesays, Lou, what's the broad gonna
have? Meaning my nana like basicallyorder for your woman and my papa.

(53:19):
My nana was like, oh no, no, no, no, you
don't talk to me like that.And my papa was very much, at
least with me growing up, wasvery profeminist. He's very like, you
can do whatever you want. Iwant. You can be a doctor,
you could be an attorney. Hewas very much like pushing me to be
the best that I can be.Everything about him was like, you can

(53:40):
do this. I see so muchin you, and was very empowering.
So to be in a situation whereone of his idols had was such a
misogynist towards his wife. They bothgot up and they left the dinner.
They didn't have the rest of theday or with Frank Sinatra. I just

(54:02):
left in the middle of the dinner. Oh my gosh. I know.
I love the story because I thinkabout it and I put it into contacts
with the Me Too movement, andI think of all of the women,
especially the women whose employers or peoplewho are in charge of their livelihood have

(54:22):
used coercion and used like essentially captivityof like coercive power over them to sexually
assault them. I think of thatbecause it's like, if Frank Sinatra had
any kind of power over my grandfatheror my grandmother's livelihood, I don't know
that they would have been able tohave easily gotten up and left, you

(54:43):
know what I mean, Because powercan really really scare somebody to do to
set their boundaries that they need.You know, look at Harvey Weinstein,
look at poll Cosby, you know, I know, and look at how
people or supporting them over the victims. It's just that's why people don't come

(55:05):
forward, right, right, that'sthe exact reason. Especially if that person
is well known and powerful and wellliked and idolized and you say something about
them that goes against what people wantto believe about them, there's no way
that he Yeah. So I lovethat story because I was like, yes,

(55:28):
you guys, go, yeah,you take it to Frank. Yes,
so good for them. So ohmy gosh, that's such like a
badass thing to do. I know, right, That's why I love that
story. And I was like Iremember when Nana told me that. I
was like, you did that.She's like, oh yeah, I wasn't
going to sit and have dinner withthat man. After that, I was

(55:52):
like wow. Then I asked Papaabout it. He's like, yeah,
he like grumbled kind of under hisbreath like he was I could tell that
he was, you know, kindof pissed, like like it's really disheartening
to meet your idol and then belike, oh wow, you're kind of
scummy and right right, you're kindof a jerk, Like damn, like
I listened to you at dinner timeall the time. Not anymore. Yeah,

(56:15):
yeah, man, that's gonna makeme think twice when I listened to
Frank Sinatra. Now I know.It's like the ultimate cancel culture. Yeah,
won't be able to go to Amaggianosanymore, exactly exactly Italian restaurant.
Really. Um oh gosh, ohboy. I love So they can read

(56:37):
about that in the book. That'sawesome, okay, And then they can
read about um, John Wayne Gacyand Richard that Richard spec case. Man,
that's a that's a tough one.I have a friend whose aunt was
living in the same like dorm areaum and happened to be out the night
that that happened, which is crazy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, to

(56:59):
this day, she's still has likea survivor's guilt about it, I can
imagine. Yeah. Yeah, Italked about that and how I actually learned
about it because my papa hat wasin Time magazine for the Richard's back case,
so there was a picture of him, I think he was on the
cover of it, in fact,and of him inspecting the knife that he
used, and he had that inhis den, and I could tell I

(57:23):
was really young, but I couldtell that it had more importance than anything
else in the den because it waslike it looked like a proper picture,
you know what I mean, likelike a professional one, not a polaroid
or I mean this was long ago, eighties, but I could tell it
was something. And yeah, Italk about how I came to learn about

(57:45):
Richard's back I actually stumbled across thecrime scene photos in that mystical den of
his, and I was young,and they were pretty gruesome, and he
I think he had some guilt aboutthe fact that I actually was able to
find them, because he was soso upset that I was able to see
them. He felt so bad.He thought he's going to traumatize me for
life. But he did not.Yeah, little did he know, little

(58:07):
did he know? Right, Buthe did the right thing. He sat
down and he talked to me aboutit. He didn't just hide it away
and keep the curiosity there. Hesat and he talked to me about it.
He told me the story and toldme how he got him behind bars.
And I wasn't I wasn't scared.I wasn't right, I wasn't affected.
So how old were you when yousaw I had to have been seven

(58:30):
or eight maybe, wow, Yeah, I was young. But he had,
like, he had so many fungadgets in there. He had a
raceable pens, and I thought becausethose yeah right, I was like you
ink what Like? I literally felthe was like a magician. So I
would go in there seeing what allother kinds of gadgets he had. I

(58:51):
always wanted to be close to him. We were just such good buzz.
But yeah, yeah, so that'sin there. There's stories about him as
as a family man and to getto know him outside of you know,
his profession. And there's pictures,so there's his resume, there's letters he
wrote, Um, yeah, it'sit's it's Yeah. It was a great

(59:12):
book to write. I had alot of fun revisiting those memories. So
did he know that you went intoforensic psychology. No, he passed away
before I did. He actually passedaway a few days after my birthday and
um, right after I graduated undergraduateschool. Oh god, so he did
not get to know, which issad And he doesn't know I wrote the

(59:36):
book. Oh maybe he does,I think. Yeah, I think so
too. I'm sure he's looking downsmiling at you. Yeah. I'll have
dreams about him, and I willwake up in a giggle fest just laughing.
I will wake up laughing when Ihave dreams with him in it.
It's just so great that. Ohthat is so cool. Yeah. So

(01:00:02):
you have a TikTok. I knowwe've mentioned that we're going to plug that
down below. Um, we're goingto plug the book and we're gonna do
a book giveaway yay um. Andthen where else can people find you?
You can find me on Instagram atdoctor Tristan angles um TikTok doctor Angles.
That's E N G E L sUm. Also have a Facebook group I

(01:00:25):
did. I did a podcast fora bit it's called advocate advo K.
I T is in kit as inrape KITUM. And my aim was to
talk about cases involving sexual assault,especially on unsolved ones that a rape kit
had could be used or tested forUM, just to kind of draw awareness
about how how impacting it is tonot have that kit tested. So I

(01:00:51):
did that. I haven't posted onein a while, but there are some
on there that are really interesting.I have some guests and we talked about
Epstein and Geeling well and you know, it's so you can listen in to
some forensic in forensic psychologist perspectives there. Yeah, that's about it. Well,
thank you so much doctor Angles forjoining me on this week's episode.

(01:01:15):
Yeah, I'm so glad to behere. I am so thankful that you
have me. Thank you once again, a huge thank you to doctor Angles
for joining me on this week's episode. If you want to follow her on
social media and check out her book, make sure to check out the links

(01:01:37):
down below. I also have somereally good news. We're going to be
doing another book giveaway. If you'reinterested, make sure to follow the instructions
on social media. Well, guys, that about does it for this week

(01:02:00):
this episode I'm Melissa Lee and thisis Ben Victimology. Victimology is partnered with
the Oracle Network. Make sure tosubscribe to Victimology on your favorite podcast platform.
I can follow Victimology on Facebook,Twitter, and Instagram. And if

(01:02:21):
you like what we do, pleaseconsider giving Victimology a five star review on
iTunes. Victimology is always accepting casesuggestions. Please reach out via social media
or email Victimology pod at gmail dotcom. All