Caroline Dowd-Higgins

Air Date - 23 January 2025

What would it mean to have a professional career coach in an easy-to-follow and wisdom-packed book? My guest this week on Vox Novus, Caroline Dowd-Higgins, provides invaluable insights on advancing your career and seizing your power, dealing with challenging bosses or colleagues, tackling common career obstacles like overwhelm, exhaustion, and burnout, and overcoming imposter syndrome and building lasting self-confidence.

Caroline is a career and executive coach, consultant, and speaker who’s passionate about helping individuals and organizations navigate change and thrive. She’s a certified LeaderShape Transpersonal Executive Coach, a Marshall Goldsmith Stakeholder Centered Executive Coach, and a Gallup Strengths Coach. Caroline hosts the award-winning podcast “Your Working Life” and is known for her inspiring TEDxWomen talk on reframing failure.

Her website is http://carolinedowdhiggins.com, and she joins me this week to share her groundbreaking book, Your Career Advantage: Overcome Challenges to Achieve a Rewarding Work Life.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Vox Novus, The New Voice, Vox Novus, the New Dimension,
Vox Novus thought and movement leaders who will share from
their experience and offer tools to help us navigate our
rapidly changing world. My name is Victor Furman. Welcome to

(00:28):
vox Novus The New Voice. What would it mean to
have a professional career coach in an easy to follow
and wisdom pack book. My guest this week on vox Novus,

(00:50):
Caroline Dowd Higgins, provides invaluable insights on advancing your career
and seizing your power, dealing with challenging bosses or colleagues,
tackling common career obstacles like overwhelm, exhaustion and burnout, and
overcoming imposter syndrome, and building lasting self confidence. Caroline is

(01:13):
a career and executive coach, consultant, and speaker who's passionate
about helping individuals and organizations navigate change and thrive. She's
a certified Leader Shape trans Personal Executive Coach, a Marshall
Goldsmith Stakeholder Centered Executive Coach, and a Gallop Strengths Coach.

(01:35):
Caroline hosts the award winning podcast Your Working Life and
is known for her inspiring ted ex women talk on
reframing failure. Her website is Caroline Doowd Higgins dot com
and she joins me this week to share her groundbreaking book,
Your Career Advantage Overcome Challenges to achieve a rewarding work life.

(01:57):
Please join me in welcoming to Vox Novus, Caroline Dowd Higgins.
Welcome Caroline.

Speaker 2 (02:04):
Well, it's lovely to be here, Victor. I'm glad to
be with you.

Speaker 1 (02:07):
Thank you so much for joining us today and taking
part in this interview. Caroline. In the preface to your book,
you describe your many roles and accomplishments and end the
paragraph by saying that you are a recovering workaholic. Please
share with our listeners your early path, how it led
to your numerous achievements and that ultimate realization.

Speaker 2 (02:29):
Well, Victor, thank you. I'm delighted to be able to
share this story with your lovely audience. So it's important
for this audience to know that I started my career
as a professional opera singer, and that was actually a
great passion of mine ever since I was a young child.
I began singing and then I trained and had a
wonderful experience traveling Europe singing and also doing some work

(02:51):
in the United States, and it was really my dream
career until it wasn't. And I say that with sincerity
and vulnerability, because things change. And while I loved the
work while I had it, the feast to famine existence
of a performing artist was really frustrating for me, not
having that consistency in work and really not earning where

(03:15):
I wanted to be. So I pivoted and I actually
worked with a career coach, which helped me find my
second act career. And here I am now as a
certified executive coach, a speaker, an author, and a podcaster myself.

Speaker 1 (03:33):
And that realization about being a workaholic.

Speaker 2 (03:36):
Yes, well, Victor, I am hardwired to work hard, and
I'm really proud of that. There is nothing wrong with that.
I have a tremendous work ethic. I come from a
family who has instilled in me that incredible work ethic.
I have immigrated grandparents who came to this country to
find the American dream, and it was very much a

(03:57):
part of my DNA to work hard. However, I have
since learned that there is a difference in being a
high achiever and being an over achiever, and unfortunately, my
work became a bit of a work addiction. And when
you think about it, we really discourage people from being
addicted to anything, whether it's gambling or substance abuse or

(04:21):
you know, perpetual spending. We try to help those folks
and give them a lifeline. But sadly, in the world
of work, we often celebrate over work. She's burning the
candle at both ends. She's a workhorse, she has this
tremendous focus and commitment to her work. I heard that
a lot, and I adopted it as a badge of honor.

(04:44):
And that's where things got tricky, because I burned out.

Speaker 1 (04:48):
Absolutely in my forty four year professional career. In the
day job, in the workplace, I never had an employer
say to me, why don't you go home, you're working
too never heard those words exactly.

Speaker 2 (05:00):
And Victor, I don't know if this is relatable to you,
but and I'm certainly not blaming or shaming anyone else.
I take full responsibility for my workaholism. It was something
that I ignored for a very long time, and I
own that the accountability is mine. But I will say
there's a vulnerability for people like me who rise to
the challenge and love the work so much that often

(05:24):
we can be exploited in the world of work. You know.
I remember a former boss used to say, I've got
a challenge for you, and like a Pavlovian dog, you know,
my heart would race and I would get excited and
I would say, yes, bring it on. And again, I
am responsible for my own actions. But there's no doubt
that in the world of work, across industries, we celebrate

(05:47):
over work and often we think that is just a
wonderful thing that more people should do.

Speaker 1 (05:53):
And you have the pusher in a suit and tie.

Speaker 2 (05:55):
Yes, exactly right, exactly right.

Speaker 1 (05:58):
In your book Your Career Advantage, you address various career challenges.
What motivated you to write this book and how can
it help professionals overcome these challenges?

Speaker 2 (06:10):
Yeah, Victor, this book is my third book, and it's
such a labor of love because it came during a
very interesting time that we all experienced during the global pandemic.
In my scenario, I was lucky enough to be in
the knowledge industry where I had the luxury of working
from home, and I want to honor all of our
frontline workers who didn't always have that ability, but I

(06:33):
will tell you so many of us had to pivot
out of necessity to work from home, and it was
a difficult time for so many reasons. And of course
the pandemic itself was traumatic in so many ways. But
I was watching from afar virtually digitally people that were
really struggling, myself included with so many things. And I'm

(06:55):
an avid writer and I certainly love LinkedIn as a
vehicle to share content and learn, and I was watching
people really spiraling and struggling during the pandemic, and I
created a LinkedIn newsletter and it really exploded. And I
say that with humility. It was a wonderful opportunity for

(07:16):
me as an executive coach to reach out and help
people solve these scenarios that were very familiar and very common.
So your career advantage was birthed from many of these
essays and articles that I started writing during the pandemic
as a response to people who were struggling. So it

(07:36):
was a wonderful solution for scenarios that so many of
us experienced.

Speaker 1 (07:42):
Doctor Marshall Goldsmith, a top executive coach, endorsed your book.
Can you share some key takeaways from his endorsement.

Speaker 2 (07:50):
Yes, I love Marshall. He has been such an influencer
in my life. I went through his executive Coach training,
among many other trainings that I have certifications in, and
Marshall has been a mentor to me and just hundreds
of others around the world. But I've learned so much
from him, and I think one of the most important
messages that really sticks with me is have a vibrant

(08:11):
life as well as a career. I have an incredible
work ethic, but I learned that I needed a life
ethic and Marshall is certainly a proponent of that. And
another little anecdote, Victor Marshall talks about how we give
feedback and we think about historically what has gone wrong.
So he has reframed that word to call it feed forward.

(08:34):
How can we look at what we have done in
the past and reframe it and redesign it to think
about how we will do it differently and better moving forward.
So I tend to use the word feed forward in
honor of Marshall.

Speaker 1 (08:49):
Wonderful a very positive approach too. That's something that you
rarely hears. Yeah, absolutely, you've touched upon this. How do
you balance the need for careers access with the importance
of a fulfilling personal life, and how does your book
guide readers in the balance?

Speaker 2 (09:07):
Yes, you know, Victor, it is a fine line and
everybody's different. And I'll be the first to tell you
I'm incredibly ambitious and even though I'm a recovering workaholic,
I am enjoying life as well as career. I can't
tell you how many vacations I've gone on. And I
know we're audio only today on the podcast, so you
can't see my air quotes, but vacation for me was

(09:28):
another place to do my work, which is not a
vacation at all. So I finally come to terms with
the fact that we need rest, we need pause, we
need time to play, and we also need during our
work day or work evening, whatever that looks like for
the individuals listening, to have time to do the work.

(09:49):
So I think it's a beautiful hybrid of working hard
but also enjoying your life, because what is it all for.
And I've seen so many people debilitate to the point
that they became very sick or had emotional distress because
of the overwhelm at work. And I really think this
American phenomenon needs to be changed or our world of

(10:12):
work will not be successful in the future.

Speaker 1 (10:16):
I'm at the meeting with you, and I'm going to
raise my hand and say hello, my name is Victor,
and I'm a recovered workaholic, which is true. By the way,
what would you share with others who are now dealing
with this.

Speaker 2 (10:27):
Well, thank you for admitting that that means a lot.
I think we all have to come out of the
proverbial closet to say yes, I'm recovered or I'm in progress.
And I don't mean that in a hyperbolic way. And
it really does take time because we build muscle memory
and we do so many things and they become ingrained
in us. But I'll give you an example, Victor, which

(10:49):
may be relatable to many of our listeners. You know,
I'm not a sportsperson. I'm a theater and an arts person.
But I think of elite athletes, whether they're at the
LA Olympic level or they're competing professionally, they honor their
bodies with rest time so they can be at their
physical peak and at their best. And by the way,

(11:10):
they've been using coaches for generations. And I'm so delighted
to see that coaching is now deeply ensconced in the
world of work. But any smart athlete and their coach
will say that rest and recovery time will empower you
to be your very best when it comes time for
competition or competitive play. And we need to infuse that

(11:33):
philosophy in the world of work as well. Rest is
not a weakness, it's a way to really honor your mind,
body and spirit so you can be at your very best.
And I also believe that we should be enjoying our lives.
Our lives. Excuse me, and I will say when I
was at the peak of my burnout, as much as
I love to work, I wasn't enjoying it in the

(11:56):
same way.

Speaker 1 (11:57):
Yeah, and how about the affairs workoholism on personal relationships?

Speaker 2 (12:03):
Oh, it's terrible. You know, my beloved husband is so
incredibly patient, and gosh, if I was him, I would
have been absolutely furious if you know, I was responding
to me who was constantly working. It's not fair to
those we love. It's absolutely not And here's what I've learned, Victor.
It's not necessary. You know, I look at my sister,

(12:23):
who is an incredible executive in her organization, and she
has a wonderful work ethic, but she also knows boundaries,
and she has earned promotions and bonuses and continued to
rise in her organization while still setting boundaries. So I
think the fallacy that I had for so many years

(12:43):
was if I don't overwork, I'm not going to be
seen as dispensable or indispensable rather or as a value
add And I don't believe that's true anymore. We can
still do extraordinary work and go home and have an
extraordinary life. It doesn't have to be one or the other.

Speaker 1 (13:01):
Absolutely. I wrote a poem called the Healing Power of No,
and the word no, when used properly and with dignity
and respect, is a very powerful word.

Speaker 2 (13:12):
I agree, and I'll add to that victor. It's also
a complete sentence with punctuation, whether it's a mat or
an exclamation point. And I think often we apologize our
way to knows and give excuses about why we're saying no.
And I encourage everyone listening. No can be a complete sentence.

Speaker 1 (13:31):
Absolutely. Impostor syndrome is a common issue. Please define this
and what strategies can professionals employ to overcome it? And
gain self confidence.

Speaker 2 (13:44):
Victor. I work with a lot of women in my
executive coaching practice. I certainly work with men as well,
but I find that imposter syndrome is more prominent with women,
and there's some interesting data to back that up. But
the data also tells us that eighty percent of people
experience imposter syndrome. Now they might not all recognize it

(14:05):
or admit it, but they're experiencing it, and very simplistically,
it's self doubt or feeling like we're not ready or
prepared to do something. And the truth is self doubt
is normal, there's nothing wrong with that, but the impost
syndrome can be gnawing and debilitating, and it can often
prevent us from doing things or from taking on a

(14:25):
new risk or an opportunity because we don't think that
we're one hundred percent ready. But I really believe, and
my thinking has shifted a bit since writing the book,
that the media is giving too much airtime to imposter syndrome.
It's become such a household term that I think people
are obsessed with this term. I think we need to

(14:48):
have the confidence to say we can learn, we can improve,
so I might not be ready yet and yet is
the operative word for this new opportunity. And I can learn,
I can try, I can grow. So giving yourself permission
to say I can figure this out. I might not

(15:09):
know it now, and I'm ready to put in the
time to figure out how to do this is the
best way to combat imposter syndrome.

Speaker 1 (15:18):
What would the proper supervisor say to someone who is
manifesting imposter syndrome?

Speaker 2 (15:24):
Yeah, I would acknowledge them and say thank you for
your honesty. Let's work through this. Let's first of all,
think about things that you do well to validate and
honor your success. And again that's not hyperbolic. Let's look
at the facts. Let's look at the things that you've
done extraordinarily well, so you can take stock of that
and re engage with your self confidence. And if there's

(15:47):
something that you were concerned about, let's power through it.
How can you learn? How can you gain the resources
and the knowledge and the experience so you feel confident
to pursue that. I truly believe that we can all fail,
but we can fail forward and learn from those mistakes
or those hiccups. You know, there's that famous quote, you

(16:09):
miss all the shots that you don't take, and imposter
syndrome can often prevent us from taking those shots that
we don't think that we're completely ready for, and I
think that's really sad. It's worth taking the shot, even
if you don't make the basket. I'm not sure why
I'm in the sports metaphor today, but there we are.

Speaker 1 (16:30):
And to that point, you share that we should honor
our strengths. How may we embody this?

Speaker 2 (16:36):
Oh my gosh, Victor, this is where I get really
nerdy and geeky, and I absolutely love it. You know,
there's something so gratifying for me as a coach working
with individuals and teams to empower them to help discover
or unleash their strengths, which really unleashes their potential. And
one of the tools that I used. I'm a certified

(16:56):
Gallop Strengths coach, and I find that tool Strengths, the
clipt and Strengths so empowering because it focuses on what
we already do well, what we innately do well, and
then it's our opportunity to take that to the next
level and make it expert or superpower. And every single
one of us have innate strengths and talents and recognizing

(17:20):
that and building upon that is such a smart strategy. So,
for example, Victor, if you or I or others listening
have ever been in a role where we were constantly
getting feedback, you need to improve upon this. This is
a weakness. You're not doing this well. I believe that
you or me may have been in the wrong role.

(17:41):
And I always encourage people find roles that allow you
to play to your strengths and of course provide opportunity
for growth. But if you're constantly asked to fix things
and improve upon a weakness, chances are you're not in
the right role.

Speaker 1 (17:58):
Absolutely. One of the things that I to do in business,
I would work with salespeople and I would give them
an example and say, a customer comes to you, for example,
and asks you for a drill bit. What does the
customer really want? And they'd look at me and you know,
question it, and I'd say, they want to make a hole.
And I said, if they want to make a whole,
what other things do they need? They need a lubricant,

(18:18):
they need eye protection, they need gloves, all of these
things that could build the sale and so on. And
then I'd say to the salespeople, what do you really want?
And they would look with ridicule at me, like what
are you asking me? And I say, what do you
really want? If you didn't work in this position that
you're in right now, what would you really like to do?
And I think that's the question we often have to
ask ourselves when we're in a position that doesn't satisfy us.

Speaker 2 (18:41):
I agree, and Victor, I'll take that a step further.
You know, the busyness of life can be so overwhelming.
I know there are parents out there, there are folks
taking care of elderly parents or loved ones who have
difficult circumstances. Stress is real for everybody, But we say badly,
don't give ourselves the pause, the reflection time on a

(19:05):
regular cadence to really think, Am I happy? Am I
doing what I love? Do I have what I need?
And I encourage people to think about a periodic time
and maybe it's just a few minutes every few weeks
or every few months, where you can give yourself that
reflection time to really consider, am I doing what I
need to be doing? Am I in the right place,

(19:27):
Am I in the right role? And if not, what's missing?
So that pause that reflection, whether it's journaling or working
with a mentor or a coach or someone that you trust,
is so important. Otherwise, the momentum of life just carries
us away and before you know it, you look up
in years have gone by.

Speaker 1 (19:47):
And let's put the glove. On the other hand, you
have the effective manager or supervisor who recognizes that someone
working for them is not honoring their strength. How do
you address that person?

Speaker 2 (19:58):
Yeah, well, I think it's a really savvy manager and
leader and supervisor that is keenly aware of the individual's talents,
and I would encourage them, whether you're using a formal
assessant like Clift and Strengths, or you're having those conversations
to learn what that individual self identifies as their strength.
Having those regular check ins, I think it's really important.

(20:21):
You know. Sadly, in the world of work, we often
rely on those performance evaluations that come once a year
if we're lucky. So many times I've worked in organizations
where they didn't do a performance evaluation at all. So
my hope is that the leaders and the managers listening
have more regular check ins to have those conversations what's working,

(20:41):
what's not, and what's next, And certainly part of that
revolves around strengths.

Speaker 1 (20:47):
And you have that leader who is wonderful and a
truly an observant person and someone who really cares about
the people that work for him, recognizes that a person's
strengths really don't fit into that department. But else, what
do you do?

Speaker 2 (21:01):
Yeah, well that's brilliant. You know. I'd like to think
of it as the company puzzle, and the puzzle piece
might not fit on this team. But if this is
an extraordinarily talented person with a great attitude and someone
that you want to retain, absolutely see where you can
plug them in. And you can start with some job
shadowing on other teams or networking with other people. It

(21:24):
doesn't have to be difficult, right give them an opportunity
to investigate where else they might be a good fit.
That's the best case scenario in retaining that talent. And
if not, why be free. You know, let them have
an opportunity to leave with a great reference. And I'm
not saying you can you should fire them necessarily, but
have that honest conversation about where they can do their

(21:47):
best work that honors their strengths. I think that kind
of a mutually beneficial conversation is good for everybody, and
it's certainly boost morale and confidence and trust.

Speaker 1 (22:00):
Absolutely. We had talked about the power of the word no,
and that no was a complete sentence, and I had
mentioned I had written a poem about that. May I
share that with you?

Speaker 2 (22:09):
Please? Please?

Speaker 1 (22:10):
It's called the healing power of No. A time comes
for choosing rather than losing, the essence that makes us
so and in the bestowing. There's power in knowing the
freedom that comes with no, when said with compassion, not angry,
in fashion and letting the self love flow. There's a

(22:31):
sense of renewing and a deep soul imbuing the awareness
that comes with no. So with gentle voice and the
power of choice and the courage to make it so,
I'm still here, my friends. There's no means in this end,
just the healing that comes with no.

Speaker 2 (22:50):
Oh that's beautiful, Victor, thank you.

Speaker 1 (22:53):
Thank you very much. My guest Caroline Dowd Higgins. Her book,
Your Career Advantage Overcome Challenge is to achieve a rewarding
work life. Caroline, please share with our listeners where they
can get all of your books, find out more about
you and your website.

Speaker 2 (23:08):
Thank you, Victor. The mothership is my website, which is
Carolindowd Higgins dot com all smushed together, so my last
name is hyphenated, but Caroline Dowd Higgins dot com is not,
and you would find all of my information about my books,
my speaking, my consulting work, my coaching, and my podcast.

(23:28):
So that's the best place to find me. And of
course I'm very active on LinkedIn as well.

Speaker 1 (23:33):
Tell us more about your podcast, Oh.

Speaker 2 (23:35):
My goodness, my podcast is called Your Working Life, And
like you, it's a great joy to talk with experts
around the world who have interesting information and vital information
to share with my global audience. I believe that it's
a great honor and a joy for me to share
resources with other people as they navigate the world of

(23:56):
work and their lives.

Speaker 1 (23:58):
And we'll be back with more of Caroline after these words.
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Speaker 1 (26:05):
Council back on Vox Novus. My guest this week Caroline
Dowd Higgins her book Your Career Advantage Overcome Challenges to
achieve a rewarding work life. Caroline, can you share an
example of a success story from someone who applied the

(26:25):
principles from your book to their career.

Speaker 2 (26:28):
Yes, Oh, my goodness, it's such a joy to hear
or to actually experience these success stories. So, you know,
a lot of my focus right now is to help
people navigate the burnout treadmill and get off of it safely,
and certainly I have a personal stake in that game
as well. So yes, one of my clients. I'll change

(26:49):
her name to honor her privacy. Let's call her Sue
for this lovely conversation. Has been overworking for many, many years,
and her health really started to debilitate, and sadly, Sue
had a cardiac episode. It was a mild heart attack. Thankfully,
she is alive today. She has a pacemaker and is

(27:12):
really focusing on her life and her career. But she
had a very frank conversation with her boss and she said,
this role is literally impacting my health and it could
kill me if I keep over working. And to our
great delight, her boss, who is the CEO of the organization,

(27:33):
really responded to her with respect and dignity and said,
let's do whatever we can to make this work for you.
I want you to be healthy, I want you to
be successful, and I don't want you to leave. So
it was a mutually beneficial opportunity for them to design
a work schedule that honored productivity and not overwork and burnout.

(27:56):
But the happy ending victor is that Sue is thriving
in life and career. She's working forty hours a week
and she's taking breaks and she's taking her PTO and
these are actual vacations, she's not tethered to a phone
or a laptop. But her courage has actually inspired other
over workers in the organization, including the CEO, to take

(28:19):
different measures to ensure her health and well being. So
I'm so grateful for the ripple effect there and the
courage that Sue had, and sadly the wake up call
of the cardiac scenario that really helped her understand this
is a matter of life and death.

Speaker 1 (28:40):
Many professionals struggle with challenging bosses or colleagues. What advice
do you offer for effectively navigating these situations.

Speaker 2 (28:49):
Yeah, you've probably heard the adage that people don't leave organizations,
they leave bad bosses, and that's very true in many
many situations. So communication is almost always the rub with
a bad boss. Now, let me be the first to say,
if your boss is treating you inappropriately, if there's egregious
behavior or harassment, get out right, get out quickly. Do

(29:13):
not ever put yourself in an unsafe environment. Report to
the authorities, go to HR, do whatever you can that's imperative.
But if your boss is just a tricky, complicated person
who's mean or doesn't listen or is a very difficult personality,
there may be things to consider to improve that relationship.

(29:33):
And I would say the first thing is to have
a conversation, get to know each other and have a
very frank conversation. And I often start with four very
simple questions that I call the best of me, and
I will sit down with that boss and say, here's
what I need from you. You get the best of
me when dot dot dot, and I will share what

(29:55):
that looks like for me. But I will also ask
the boss, what does that mean to you? So we
have a two way street of conversation because we can't
mind read and often bosses and direct reports don't communicate well.
The second question is you get the worst of me
or a statement I should say, And that's important too.

(30:16):
You know, I had a boss that would often do
what I called the drive buys. Now it wasn't literal.
He would just, you know, come by my office on foot.
He wasn't driving, but he would dump this brain dump
of ideation and brainstorm on me and I wouldn't know
should I act on this or is he just wanting
a sounding board. So once we could come to terms

(30:39):
with the fact of He just loved to share ideas
and not all of them were directives for me. We
had a much better relationship. The third question is here's
what I need from you, And it might be I
need preparation time, I need scheduled appointments, or I need
more one on one time. And again it's not one

(30:59):
way your boss need from you. And then the fourth
statement is how can I help you be successful in
this role? And I think it's very important for your
listeners victor to understand that is a question for both.
So I would ask the boss that, and the boss
can ask the direct report. Because our job for our

(31:21):
direct reports and for our leaders is to help them
do their very best work.

Speaker 1 (31:26):
And we have those who are intimidated by those challenging
bosses or colleagues. How may we speak truthfully and respectfully
to supervisors and senior managers.

Speaker 2 (31:38):
That's tough. I mean, there's no doubt about it. It
sounds simple to have that open line of communication, but
intimidation and retaliation are real. I would crowdsource a little
bit and find out what other people have been successful
at when communicating. And I often say it takes time
to learn how to speak your bosses language. You know,

(31:58):
they have a certain personality traits, they have idiosyncrasies, they
have tics. We all do. We're human, So learning what
their signals are. But I also think the power of asking. So,
for example, is your boss a phone talker or does
she prefer a text or a Slack message? Does she
prefer email or in person communication? You know, we can't

(32:22):
mind read these. And the more you learn to speak
her language in this hypothetical situation, the better.

Speaker 1 (32:29):
And what do you say to the person who says,
I may not always be right, but I'm never wrong.

Speaker 2 (32:35):
Well, I think we all need a dose of humanity.
I think we all can be wrong, and I get it.
There are big egos out there, and part of that
is learning how to own your power. So there is
not an uneven power dynamic. And I'll say, very candidly, Victor,
if the boss direct report relationship is so bad that

(32:56):
it doesn't allow you to do your best work, it's
worth considering is this a place where I really want
to be? Now, not every boss lasts long term, so
you really need to suss out the scenario and figure
out is this boss here for a good long time
or are they you know, somebody that's not going to
stick around. But I'll tell you learning how to communicate

(33:18):
with your boss is essential. But if that boss is
giving you stress that is debilitating, you really need to
question again, is this a place where I can do
my best work.

Speaker 1 (33:30):
One of the techniques that you share in your career
advantage is to interview your prospective boss. What questions should
be asked in this regard and how does this determine
you should so to speak hire the boss?

Speaker 2 (33:44):
Oh, I'm so glad you asked this. You know so
often people go through the interview process and they're only
thinking one way. How can I impress this organization. It's
your interview as well as the candidate. And when you
get to a point where an offer is imminent or
you have an offer, I always encourage every candidate with
whom I work to have a one on one with

(34:06):
their prospective boss. Sometimes you don't get much airtime with
that individual, especially in the executive levels, because they're so
overscheduled and doing so much, But it's imperative. Is this
a person that I can relate to? And I have
a whole series of questions in the book asking about
their training style, their coaching, style, their communication style and

(34:29):
what you need to be a successful partnership. And I
can't stress enough how important it is for you to
determine is this the person that I can do my
best work with? And if that is not a question
you can answer in the affirmative, I would be very
discerning about whether or not that's the right role for you.

Speaker 1 (34:51):
And in my experience I can relate to you that
in the process of me hiring people to work for
the company that I was working for, I was very
impressed when I was asked questions of that nature.

Speaker 2 (35:01):
Absolutely, you know, and people don't do it enough. And
I think, why would you ever go into an organization
blind without having that airtime with your boss? Again, such
a simple thing, And as you were, most of those
bosses are incredibly impressed that you're asking.

Speaker 1 (35:19):
I worked for an organization for many years where my
initial employer was the founder of the company and many
years later his son succeeded him. Without going into details,
there was a vast difference between the father and the son,
leading me to eventually leave the company. How do we
cope with generational changes in the leadership?

Speaker 2 (35:40):
Yeah, you know, it's so interesting because we've got five
generations in the workforce right so our youngest, our Gen
Z professionals, and the college graduates. They're the late teens
and early twenties. Then, of course we've got our millennials
who are approaching their forties right now, many of them
are in their forties. I'm squarely in Gen X. And

(36:02):
then our baby boomers, some of them are still working.
And there are some folks in the Great Generation older
than our Baby boomers who are in an advisory capacity.
And our Gen Alpha and the Betas, who are just
babies right now are coming along and growing and will
enter the workforce in about a decade or so. So

(36:23):
we will always have a multi generational workforce. And I
think we need to learn. You know, it's so easy
to say, gosh, those young folks, you know, they've got
such a different set of values and ideas. Yes, they do,
and I think we need to learn how to work
harmoniously together. So I'll give you an example. As a
Gen xer, I never really thought about work life balance

(36:44):
because my role models were baby boomers. And I'm not
saying anything negative about them. They were grooming me and
developing me. And I'm deeply grateful for that, but work
ethic was very different, and happily, the younger generations are
really stressing work life integration. They want to have a
life and a career and for that, I'm grateful that

(37:06):
helped me get off the workaholic treadmill. So I believe
we can coexist. We need to listen more and talk
less and learn about our colleagues.

Speaker 1 (37:18):
When do you know that it's time to go?

Speaker 2 (37:21):
M Yeah, so I often talk about the Sunday night blues. Right,
we are recording this on a Sunday afternoon, and many
people maybe getting that pit in the bottom of their stomach,
thinking Tomorrow's Monday, Tomorrow's a workday. If you perpetually have
that pit in your stomach on Sunday night, not just
because you're tired, you're sad to see the weekend come

(37:42):
to a close, but because you dread work, then you
really need to think is this where I want to
spend my time? I mean, think Victor about how much
time in our lives we spend at work. Is it fulfilling?
Is it gratifying? Is it challenging? Is it stimulating? Am
I earning but I deserve with compensation and benefits? So

(38:04):
we need to do some serious self reflection. I have
a phrase that I coined in my TEDx talk the suckiness,
and that's a term I created is real in the
world of work, but the suffering is optional. So if
you are constantly suffering in your organization for whatever reason,
that's a good question and an opportunity for you to

(38:26):
determine is this the place where I want to be?

Speaker 1 (38:31):
And how do you prepare to make that departure?

Speaker 2 (38:34):
Well, I believe that this work world, that the marketplace
is robust enough that most people will find another role
before they leave. It connects them financially, keeps their benefits intact.
But as I said earlier, if you're in a scenario
where you're experiencing egregious behavior, or maybe you have the

(38:55):
unfortunate downsizing or layoffs that are ubiquitous in this world
world of work, mergers, acquisitions, and you find yourself out
of work on a schedule that really didn't meet you
where you need it to be, that's okay. It's important
to roll up your sleeves and get back into the
hunt if you will. But I think it gives you

(39:16):
a chance to pause and really reevaluate what do I
want next, so I don't just wash rints and repeat
the same scenario.

Speaker 1 (39:25):
You know, it's interesting I had shared that generational change
which led me to leave the company that I was
working for. A few moments after I left, the former
employer sent an email out to others in the comparable
industry notifying them that I had left the company, wishing me,
thanking me for my efforts, and wishing me well in
the future. Within two hours, I had three offers and

(39:47):
they were substantially better with companies that I really had
a lot of respect for. So it's not a bad
thing to do as long as you are prepared.

Speaker 2 (39:55):
I agree, And you know, I believe in the concept
of networking before you need it. You know, so many
people when they lose a job or they leave a job, think, okay,
now I have to rally the network. And we need
to honor our network and nurture it and steward it
all the time and be grateful for it. These individuals
with whom we connect. It's not just about gimme, gimme

(40:17):
I need your help. I think it's really important to
maintain those relationships very generously always, and then you when
the time comes where you do need help, people are
much more willing to lend a hand, and I believe
in the art of paying it forward to help others
in need as well.

Speaker 1 (40:36):
And an expression that my wife used to use, which
I thought was very wise, she said, whenever you leave
an organization or any place that you work, walk out backwards,
meaning do not leave on bad terms. Leave with a
smile on your face, leaving open the opportunity to come
back and rejoin that organization should the opportunity present itself.

Speaker 2 (40:56):
Beautifully said and Victor, there's an interesting term. We call
them boom rang talent. So many organizations individuals leave because
perhaps they've capped out, they've hit a ceiling in their
certain department. And I believe it can be great to
go someplace else and gain experience, have a new role,
perhaps think about a promotion or an advancement, and then

(41:19):
the company that you left might just knock back on
your door and say, hey, we are delighted to see
how you've grown. Might you come back and work for
us in the future. So I agree with your wife wholeheartedly.

Speaker 1 (41:30):
My guest Caroline Bowed Higgins her book Your Career Advantage
Overcome Challenges to Achieve a rewarding work life. We'll be
back with more after these words on the own Times
Radio network.

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Speaker 1 (43:22):
Back on Box Novus. My guest this week Caroline Dowd
Higgins her book Your Career Advantage Overcome Challenges to achieve
a rewarding work life. Caroline, As a supervisor, what tips
do you offer for retaining high performers.

Speaker 2 (43:40):
Yeah, Victor, that's such an important question. I'm delighted that
you asked as a supervisor, as a manager, as a
leader of people, we need to get to know our
direct reports well and really be empathetic. I said earlier
this phrase listen more, talk less. I think it's important
to give people a safe space, to create a space

(44:02):
of psychological safety where they don't fear retribution. You heard
me share earlier. I believe in the concept of failing forward.
Now it's not just failing to fail, but we all
make mistakes, and not punishing people for those mistakes, but
helping them grow through it. There is a phrase that
Daniel Pink wrote about many many years ago, and he said,

(44:23):
people are happy in their careers if they can achieve autonomy, mastery,
and purpose. And I agree with him very much, and
I'll unpack that autonomy something that we own at work,
a project or a workstream, something that we can take
great pride in that we can call our own and

(44:43):
our ability to work on that. Of course, you've got
other collaborators and people that are weighing in, but the
micromanager is not helpful when you're looking for autonomy, mastery,
How do we become an expert at something? How do
we continue to upscale and learn new things? And purpose?
Finding meaning and purpose and belonging at work really impacts

(45:07):
engagement and longevity in the organization. And my goodness, we're
seeing a revolving door of talent right now. So retention
is an issue.

Speaker 1 (45:17):
Absolutely. I had a wonderful spiritual teacher who used to
say there should be an eleventh commandment, thou shalt have purpose?
Do you agree with that?

Speaker 2 (45:25):
I do? That's lovely. Yes, And you know, some people
find their purpose at work, some find it in life,
some find it in a hybrid mix of both. But yes,
I think meaning and purpose is so important. And I
see this a lot with people who retire who were
so wrapped up in their careers that was their entire identity.
My father, who passed away years ago, was one of

(45:46):
those folks. I mean, he absolutely loved his career so
much that he had a really hard time in retirement
trying to find other things that gave him meaning and purpose.
So I'm not criticizing him, but I encourage all of
us to think about what is meaningful and purposeful in
life and career.

Speaker 1 (46:06):
Absolutely, and our listeners, many of our listeners know that
when I retired from my forty four year industrial career
that my purpose, my retirement is not part of my vocabulary.
I shouldn't say retirement when I left that position, and
I had so many other things in my life, and
I'm grateful for the fact that every day I wake
up and I have a full, purposeful day in front

(46:28):
of me. So I'm really grateful for that.

Speaker 2 (46:30):
Absolutely, And you know, it stimulates our mind, our body,
or spirit all the things. It's good for our health
and well being as well.

Speaker 1 (46:36):
Absolutely, burnout is a growing concern in the modern workplace.
We had touched upon this a little bit earlier. What
steps can readers take to prevent or recover from burnout?

Speaker 2 (46:48):
Yeah, well, let me preface this by saying burnout is
a workplace issue. It's not a self care issue. So
a dear friend of mine, Paula Davis, who is the
president of this Stress and Resilience Institute, has a wonderful
quote that I always attribute to her, and she says,
you can't yoga your way out of burnout. And I

(47:09):
love that because it reminds us, Look, this isn't about relaxation,
It's about overwork and overwhelm. So part of that is
again realistically figuring out does my role have too much
responsibility for one person and having that frank conversation with
your leader. And I find that many organizations do expect

(47:33):
unrealistic things from their employees. So having that conversation to
ascertain is this workload manageable? And I can't emphasize enough
Victor the importance of taking breaks. I firmly believe in
the time off and the time away to recharge and rejuvenate.
But I also think work breaks during the work day,

(47:54):
and I like to follow my circadian rhythm and think
about how every ninety minutes I'll get up and strych
or walk around or you know, do something, maybe pet
the dog, right just to reboot my brain. I work
from home, so I have that luxury. But I will
say people that are working NonStop for twelve hours, for example,

(48:16):
are not productive and they're not doing their best work
because their brains aren't sharp. It's not a weakness to
take a break and have a realistic work duration.

Speaker 1 (48:28):
As a follow up, how may we create a work
life balance that also keeps us physically and emotionally healthy.

Speaker 2 (48:37):
Yeah, you know, it's so interesting because the word balance
had got so much blowback for so many years. But
I do think I would redefine it or reframe it
and talk about work life fit or work life integration
only because the word balance makes it sound like it's
just glorious all the time. And the truth is, we
have deadlines, we have goal lives, we have budget times right,

(48:59):
we have big projects, we have events. Life and career
is a roller coaster and there are ups and downs,
and we need to navigate that knowing that there are
crunch times and then relax into the downtimes and think
of it as professional recuperation. So I liken this to
an elite athlete, and I talked about this earlier about

(49:20):
how athletes for generations have used coaches they also rest.
We just came off the twenty twenty four Olympics in
Paris this summer. Every one of those athletes knows how
important that downtime is for their muscles to heal and
regenerate and recuperate. So if we can think about that

(49:41):
in our work lives, we are going to either mitigate
or vanish burn out all together if we can honor
the downtime.

Speaker 1 (49:50):
As we discussed in the first segment, the pandemic led
many to the remote workplace. That was followed by a
hybrid situation, and last year many employe as mandated physical presence.
How have these changes affected the work situation?

Speaker 2 (50:05):
Yeah, you know, it's very interesting. There are a lot
of studies that are coming to light right now that
show flexibility is ranked even higher than salary for so
many when thinking about what kind of work they're taking.
And I firmly believe that this is going to backfire,
and I think it's really short sighted of these organizations
and the leaders that run them to call everybody back flexibility.

(50:29):
And I understand in some scenarios it was exploited inappropriately.
So we need to have guardrails and make sure that
people are high producing and effective when they're working hybrid
or remote or any combination thereof. But this flexibility gives
people peace of mind. It helps them with kids, or

(50:50):
taking care of elderly parents, or dealing with health issues. Heck,
even a dentist appointment right, Having that flexibility to do
that during your work day can really change things. So
I think we need to revisit this. I'm seeing a
lot of pushback and it leads to disengagement, it leads
to lack of trust, and it's really got a lot

(51:14):
of negative repercussions. And I think that in a few years,
I hope shorter, we are going to realize that remote
work is here to stay.

Speaker 1 (51:24):
What are some of the practical tools and resources you
provide in your career advantage to help individuals and organizations
thrive in a competitive career marketplace.

Speaker 2 (51:35):
Yeah, I designed a book in such a way that
I really wanted it to be actionable. So at the
end of every chapter, and every chapter is short, you know,
I get it. People don't even have time to read anymore.
The book is also on audiobooks, so you can listen
to it. But at the end of each chapter is
a list of pro tips, very succinct things that you
can put into practice today. Most of them, if not

(51:58):
all of them, don't cost any money. There are mindset shifts,
and these are things to really empower you for success.
And the way the book is designed is that you
can look at the table of contents and scan it.
It might be, Gosh, I'm having a really tough time
with my boss, Well there's a chapter for that. You
mentioned imposter syndrome, there's a chapter for that. Or I'm

(52:19):
seeking a promotion, there's a chapter for that. So it's
a playbook and it's very very much designed to be
a solution provider for the common scenarios that so many
of us experience.

Speaker 1 (52:31):
What would you like readers to take away from your
career advantage?

Speaker 2 (52:35):
You know, the bottom line, Victor, is that we all
have power and that we need to use it. So
whether you're mid career or you're a c Sueek professional.
You deserve to live your best life and your best career,
but you need to take the power back. There's a phrase,
power is not given, it's taken. We all have that
power and we need to be vocal. We need to

(52:58):
have that reflection time to really consider what do we
need and want to be successful in life and career,
and we need to have the courage to be able
to ask for what we need as well.

Speaker 1 (53:09):
And what's next for you in your career and your
mission to help individuals unlock their full potential.

Speaker 2 (53:16):
Well, thank you for asking, Victor. You know, I believe
that my career is in service of other people, whether
I am on a podcast or Delightful today to be
a guest of yours on your incredible podcast. So I
am doing a lot of consulting work with organizations to
help them create sustainable cultures of well being so people

(53:37):
can do their best work. And of course I am
coaching many individuals around the world. But something that I
absolutely love and it's a way for me to meet
with larger audiences, is serving as a public speaker to
bring these ideas to light and help people think about
how they can make positive change in their lives and careers.

Speaker 1 (53:58):
My guest is Caroline Higgins her book Your Career Advantage
Overcome Challenges to Achieve a Rewarding Work Life. Caroline, before
we ask you to give us your website and where
people can get your books. What other books have you
written before this one?

Speaker 2 (54:13):
Yes, So the first book that I wrote is called
This Is Not the Career I Ordered, and it has
two specific editions, and the second edition is almost an
entirely new book because I chronicled the journey of many
women who have experienced a career reinvention. I think you
know my first career was as an opera singer, as
I mentioned at the top of the show. So I

(54:35):
myself have gone through a very dramatic career reinvention and
it's a beautiful opportunity for people to think about how
they can navigate career change.

Speaker 1 (54:46):
And your most recent book.

Speaker 2 (54:49):
Yes, the new book is Your Career Advantage Overcome Challenges
to Achieve a Rewarding Work Life and Victor. If I may,
I'll also share with your audience that I'm very proud
of my podcast. I've been doing it for over a decade.
It's called Your Working Life, and I feature luminaries and
thought leaders in the career field, and it's a great

(55:09):
joy to be able to bring those conversations to a
global audience. We have listeners in thirty four countries.

Speaker 1 (55:16):
Caroline, please share with our listeners where they can get
all of your books and find out more about you
and your wonderful work.

Speaker 2 (55:21):
Well, Victor, thank you. So the best place is to
find me on my website, carolindout Higgins dot com. I'm
very active on LinkedIn. I would be delighted to connect
with any of your listeners, and of course my podcast
is on all podcast platforms, and as I mentioned, it
is heard in thirty four countries, so I would be

(55:41):
delighted to add some new listeners to that as well.
And I am on the speaking circuit out in the world,
so I would be delighted to connect with your listeners
at the events where I'm speaking.

Speaker 1 (55:51):
And those events are listed on your website, correct they are, yes, Caroline,
thank you so much for joining us today and sharing
this really important information for people are in the workplace
looking to make changes in their life and live their
best possible life.

Speaker 2 (56:05):
Victor, It's been an honor at a pleasure, and I'm
grateful for you.

Speaker 1 (56:08):
And thank you for joining us on Vox Novus. I'm Victor,
the voice Firman. Have a wonderful week.