January 3, 2025 • 56 mins
Air Date - 02 January 2025
What is consciousness and how did it emerge? How has our understanding of consciousness changed over the years and is their evidence of consciousness non-locality? My guest this week on Vox Novus, Dr. Franscisco Aboitiz, is the director of the Interdisciplinary Center for Neuroscience and professor of psychiatry at the Pontificia Universidad Católica de Chile. His research includes the evolution of the brain and cognition, and the neurocognitive underpinnings of conditions such as ADHD, autism, multiple sclerosis, and epilepsy.
His website is https://www.neuro.cl/en/, and he joins me this week to share his research and new book, A History of Bodies, Brains, and Minds: The Evolution of Life and Consciousness.
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What is consciousness and how did it emerge? How has our understanding of consciousness changed over the years and is their evidence of consciousness non-locality? My guest this week on Vox Novus, Dr. Franscisco Aboitiz, is the director of the Interdisciplinary Center for Neuroscience and professor of psychiatry at the Pontificia Universidad Católica de Chile. His research includes the evolution of the brain and cognition, and the neurocognitive underpinnings of conditions such as ADHD, autism, multiple sclerosis, and epilepsy.
His website is https://www.neuro.cl/en/, and he joins me this week to share his research and new book, A History of Bodies, Brains, and Minds: The Evolution of Life and Consciousness.
#FransciscoAboitiz #VoxNovus #VictorFuhrman #NewThought #Lifestyle #Metaphysics #Paranormal #Spirituality #Interviews
Visit the Vox Novus Show Page https://omtimes.com/iom/shows/vox-novus/
Connect with Victor Fuhrman at http://victorthevoice.com/
Subscribe to our Newsletter https://omtimes.com/subscribe-omtimes-magazine/
Connect with OMTimes on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/Omtimes.Magazine/ and OMTimes Radio https://www.facebook.com/ConsciousRadiowebtv.OMTimes/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/OmTimes/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/omtimes/
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/company/2798417/
Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/omtimes/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Vox Novus, the New Voice, Vox Novus, the New Dimension,
Vox Novus thought and movement leaders who will share from
their experience and offer tools to help us navigate our
rapidly changing world. My name is Victor Furman. Welcome to
(00:28):
Vox Novus, the New Voice. What is consciousness and how
did it emerge? How has our understanding of consciousness changed
over the years, and is there evidence of consciousness non locality?
My guest this week on Vox Novus, Doctor Francisco Abodes
(00:53):
is the director of the Interdisciplinary Center for Neuroscience and
Professor of Psychiatry at the Antifica Universidad Katolica de Chile.
His research includes the evolution of the brain and cognition
and the neurocognitive underpinnings of conditions such as ADHD, autism,
(01:14):
multiple sclerosis, and epilepsy. He joins me this week to
share his research and new book, A History of Bodies,
Brains and Minds, The Evolution of Life and Consciousness. Please
join me in welcoming to Vox Novus, doctor Francisco Aboites.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
Thank you very much, Victor for this invitation.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Thank you for joining us and sharing your study, your
research and all of your wonderful work. Please share with
our listeners your path and what inspired your career in
neuroscience and the study of consciousness.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Yeah, thank you very much for this question. Is actually
my latest book is pretty autobiographical in this sense. I
started just as as a kid, just just I was
just wondered by about the the how could life be?
You know? And I was really really interested in animals
(02:13):
and plants and in how life could be, you know,
the way it is. And then I then then I
it passed through me in a class in a high
school work we had to do, I started reading about
Charles Darwin, and I found that illuminating, you know, a
(02:37):
very simple theory that could explain the whole diversity of life.
Really really blew my head. And uh, from then on,
I just decided to go into biology. My family was really,
you know, uh hesitant about this because you know, they
wanted to be they wanted me to be a doctor,
(02:58):
a medical doctor. But but when anyhow, I ended up
studying biology. And when I studied biology, I began to
wonder about what mind is. Well it's not that I
understand what life is, but this this new question what
mind is? What? What what is consciousness came out as
(03:20):
a very very important question, and it's of course very
related to what life is, but it's a different level
of of of of understanding.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
Prior to your latest book, A History of Bodies, Brains
and Minds, The Evolution of Life and Consciousness, you authored
A Brain for Speech and A View from Evolutionary Neuroanatomy.
What inspired those books and what do you share with
readers in them?
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Yeah, well, the first book, A Brain for Speech, actually
it's the same book, A Brain for Speech. I View
from Evolutionary in ner Anatomy is related to to a
longstanding uh question I have had is which is how
did how are we the only animals who can speak?
(04:14):
What happened in evolution that we acquired language? Actually, linguists,
usually traditional linguists usually think, you know, that language is
something totally different from biology. Many linguists think like this,
or used to think like this. So I was really,
you know, motivated to know how language evolved through the
(04:39):
rules of natural selection, And the first book has to
do with this, to put a context of historical biology
about language, about how we you know, almost appiens or
our ancestors from orectors or whatever, you know, became able
(05:02):
to communicate with each other with symbols that making reference
to things, et cetera. So to me, it actually the
origin of language is one of the one of the
great questions in biology, just like the origin of mind,
just like the origin of life.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
What inspired your new book, A History of Bodies, Brains
and minds, the evolution of life and consciousness?
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Actually this is this is the the result. Actually, I
attempted to make a synthesis of all my work and
all my ideas about about the evolution of life in
this planet. I have been working on this for a
long time. I studied the the the brains of of reptiles,
(05:57):
of mammals, of humans, and my, my, my, my main
question is how is the process of evolution governing this
increasing complexity in brain structure and behavior. And what I
(06:18):
found in incredible is that the Winnian the Winian notion
of natural selection can account for this, which is probably
the most the most challenging of all questions in structural biology.
In the biology of structure. Structural biology I mean by
(06:38):
by the anatomy, the physiology, et cetera. The concept of
mind to me is something else but but but regarding biology, itself.
M hm. Evolution accounts for the aston astondingly complexity of
(06:59):
our brain. Mm hm.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
How do you personally define consciousness?
Speaker 2 (07:07):
There are so many different definitions of consciousness, and that's
that's the main problem with its study. H I think
that it depends so much on how you do you
understand what consciousness is, on the explanations that that that
(07:32):
that you will make. H to me, there's there's an
issue about consciousness that is that is very difficult or
impossible to solve. Which is the the qualitative subjective experience
of us being conscious? I think it's it's we We
we cannot grasp this. The only the only people who
(07:56):
can grasp this sensation is the people who is living
it also, I mean ourselves. I am fully conscious that
I'm conscious, but I I am really extending this my
(08:16):
consciousness into other people. I'm not able to see the
consciousness of other people. And that is a problem to
study it because I'm Consciousness is not an observable object
for scientists, only for one person, which is the one
who lives it. I don't know if I made myself clear, yes.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
You did, but there's no way of someone using, for example,
neuro tools to track consciousness. There's no way of doing
that at all.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
What you can have is what is called naral correlates
to consciousness, which is, I have this physiological activity and
this fits with this subjective experience of some people. You know, yes,
But how this psisiological activity becomes a subjective a subjective
(09:16):
experience is not explained.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Okay, so seeing the seeing the needles.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
So it's it's like two realms of phenomenology, you.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
Know, understood, understood. What is the earliest evidence for consciousness
in the evolution of life?
Speaker 2 (09:34):
Oh, that's that's probably the hardest question of all, you know. Uh,
there's a word that has been very used these days,
which is sentienced, which is the ability to the capacity
to feel, which is very closely related to my idea
(09:55):
of this deep consciousness subjective consciousness. And which animals are
in fact sentient, it's a big question. I am pretty
sure my dog and my cat are sentient, but this
is something that I project into them. H I am
(10:15):
not positive of that. I am positive that, for example,
you are conscious and my kids are conscious because we
talk and and and we are we have evolved to
make these assumptions. But with animals it's different, and the
lower you go in the scale, the more difficult becomes
(10:39):
to assert that the animal is or not conscious. Some
people now say that even plants are conscious. Some people
claim that that that cells are conscious. Some people even
say that that consciousness is related to the uncertainty principle.
I mean to to quantum mechanics, the to the collapse
(11:01):
of the wave function h when the observer alter the
the the the wave function. Actually, I think the the
the diversity of ideas about this, about the the when
does consciousness appear is a sign of the difficulty of
(11:24):
the problem. We have no idea, so to speak, you know,
we we don't have a notion about when a subjective
experience appears in nature.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
So, for example, anthropologists looking at ancient chromagnut and Homo sapiens,
can they determine at what point drawing and language were
implied replied, and then determine the origin of consciousness in
human beings.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I mean in in a way
that's correct. If if if if, if, if you have
language I have, I have good reason to suppose that
you are conscious. But you see, now we have artificial
intelligence that are pretty good at language and and uh,
and personally, I don't think they are really conscious. Uh,
(12:21):
some people do think they are conscious. I don't think so.
But the problem is a language by itself. It's not
it's not proof of consciousness. And yeah, probably our our
our relatives, the Neanderthals, and they did have a degree
(12:43):
of consciousness. I would tend to think that way. But
the point is that we cannot prove that.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
What are the leading theories of consciousness and where do
they fall short.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
That? I think there are two main leading theories of consciousness.
When the integrated information theory, which asserts that consciousness is
a very mathematical theory, asserts that consciousness results from uh,
I'm going to say, it's simple from very very high complexity,
(13:24):
and it's a matter of complexity and where actually the
system is so complex that it depends totally on its
on the dynamicals of its own part. It's like a
closed system. I mean, this is an interesting theory to
(13:44):
think about it. But then again, you cannot prove this,
you know, you cannot prove you can say, well, uh, yeah,
I mean we do have this level of consciousness, so
this system should be conscious. For example, the I T
the integrated information theory claims that that computers cannot be
(14:06):
conscious because they lack the sufficient complexity. Okay hm. But
then again, like I said, if you have something that conscious,
how can you prove that it is in fact conscious
or you just assume it is conscious Because it is complex,
(14:28):
you cannot demonstrate its consciousness. And the other theory is
the global workspace theory, which actually this theory refers more
to the cognitive aspects of consciousness, like our capacity to plan,
to to make autobiographical memory, to to think about ourselves,
(14:54):
to see the world as a unified h system, et cetera.
But this theory is more related to cognition than than
to the real deep aspects of subjective consciousness. In my way, m.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
Our emotions evidence of consciousness.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
The subjective the subjective experience of emotions. Yes, in my view, yes,
they are related to to to sentence. Uh, the an emotion.
You can you can have see a physiological reaction that
(15:40):
you can attribute to an emotion. M hmm. This physiological
reaction is about the same as the neurophysiological correlate of
of me seeing the color red. For example, I mean
I can, I can I can look at the brain
(16:02):
and see when I see red, I mean this this,
this part of the brain will act be active. So
on huh, Well, emotions are the same. There's a physiological
process that we we we correlate this physiological cross process
with a subjective experience of that is an emotion. H
(16:24):
but but but it's again we can't. We'll come again
to the same question. It is not the same the
the the the the physical process than the subjective experience.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
Okay, so I'm not experienced in life and I touch
something that's hot and I burn myself. I withdraw my
hand and I'm in pain, and I recognize that I'm
never going to do that again because by touching that
I'm going to get burned. Is that a form of
learning consciousness?
Speaker 2 (16:56):
I mean in a way. Yeah. But but see you
can see that that that that snail can do this too, mhm,
and and that probably a cell does it. Actually, there's
there's a recent article that shows that health show cells
show the basic not neurance cells, just cells show the
(17:19):
basic learning capacities, as as as brain is like habituation
for example, so that your ability to learn doesn't necessarily
imply again that you're conscious.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
There are some arguments as to whether newborn infants have
consciousness or does it developed later on in them. What's
your experience with that?
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Yeah, Yeah, that's that's that's that's another another important question.
Some viewers think that consciousness is acquired in the one. Actually,
the integrated information theory considers that the brain becomes sufficiently
complex inside could becoming in sufficiently complex inside the one
(18:10):
before birth, so there could be consciousness even without sensory input.
That's another point of interests of the integrated information theory.
This theory does not require sensory input for consciousness to exist. Personally,
(18:31):
I do think it requires and I think babies this
is this is my view and could be totally wrong,
but I think babies slowly acquire consciousness as they interact
with the environment.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
That's I think that's an important question, the question of
interacting with environment, because all life interacts with its environment. Yeah,
does all life? You talked about some people thinking that
single cellular organisms have a form of consciousness. Is consciousness
something that's available to all forms of life?
Speaker 2 (19:08):
Ah? Well, I mean in principle yes, but I think
that in order to have sentence you need a level
of complexity. But in principle, you're right. That's the notion
of the pan consciousness, that everything you know, every living
being disconscious, you know, and some some some people even
(19:31):
say that that even matter is consciousness conscious. I would
say that there is some point in which subjective experience
appear in the scale of evolution, but I am not
sure where that is, or in the scale or in
the in the life of an individual. Mhm.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
There was a Japanese scientist who conducted experiments with water.
Are you familiar with those with those experiments?
Speaker 2 (20:00):
No? No, just let me know.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
He did experiments with water. And when he spoke to
the water with a nice voice, when he had good
thoughts towards the water, when he did positive things around
the water, the formation that he could see under a
microscope of the individual atoms that make up the water
(20:22):
had a beautiful pattern. And then when he was negative,
they changed the pattern completely and they looked painful, actually,
some of the images that came out. And this was
done with water and with ice. What do you think
about it?
Speaker 2 (20:36):
I had no idea about this experiment, and I would
have to see it, and I have I would have
those to to to to read the work and and
and and study that had I had no idea if
if if these were were correct, if this was correct. Still,
(20:57):
we don't know if this uh uh difference that you see,
this this effect that you see is the result of
being conscious. I'm not I'm not sure that that you
could infer this from this results.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
Well, I will find that information for you and I'll
send it to you, sir, so you can refer to
it in for opinion on that after our interview.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
That's interesting.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
My guest is doctor Francisco aboit Is. His book is
called A History of Bodies, Brains and Minds, the Evolution
of Life and Consciousness. Please share with our listeners where
they can get your books and find out more about
you and your work.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
Actually, you can follow me in in in Francisco. Avoid
is that Instagram. That's my main page, and we published
everything that that we do in there.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
And your books are available.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
My books are available in Amazon and uh in in
any any electronic books. Actually, my second book is also
available in mit Press store, and I think there's a
discount rate.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
Wonderful And we'll be back with more after these words.
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Speaker 1 (25:31):
Back on Vox Novis, my guest this week is doctor
Francisco Aboidis's book A History of Bodies, Brains and Minds,
The Evolution of Life and Consciousness. Doctor Aboidis, what is
the concept of pan psychism and how does it challenge
our understanding of consciousness.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Well, panpsychism is the notion that everything is conscious. It's
not that just us and this is this This notion
has come out because we we tend to I mean,
first of all, we like Like I said before, we
assume that others, other people is conscious because we speak
(26:18):
with them, we share feelings, we share realities and everything.
And then we assume that others are equally conscious as us.
But then pets are also considered conscious in a way,
you know, and other animals. There's people who think that
that lizards are conscious, that fish are conscious, that octopuses
(26:47):
are conscious, et cetera. When do we stop the line?
Some people they say, there's just no stopping the line.
Everybody is conscious. Consciousness is a property of matter. That's
the most extreme understanding of pan consciousness, that consciousness, like energy,
is a property of matter. The difference is how how
(27:14):
developed these consciousnesses. And in complex structures like our brain,
consciousness is very very strong, but in others, in other systems,
it can be very low.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
I'm going to share a story with you about something
that actually happened to me In nineteen seventy five. I
was in the United States Air Force and I was
stationed in Soul, Korea. One morning, I had a message
in my head and I had no physical evidence, no
phone calls, no letters from my mother back in New York,
(27:50):
six thousand miles away, and the message was is that
I needed to call her. She needed to hear from me.
It was very important that I reach out to her.
No clue whatsoever, no conscious clue whatsoever. I made the
phone call, and in those days we had extension telephones,
and my sister and my mother picked up the phone simultaneously,
(28:12):
and I said, Mom, is there anything wrong? And my
sister exclaimed, oh my god, how did he find out?
And it turned out that she was scheduled for major
surgery the next day. And instinctively, I said to her,
the surgery would be a complete success. She'd have a
complete healing, it would be very rapid, there would be
no problems. She was going to be just fine. She
(28:33):
needed to hear those words from me. Now, is there
a quantum theory of consciousness? Is there a model in
which thoughts display non locality?
Speaker 2 (28:45):
Yeah, yeah, Well, some people believe on this consciousness is
related to the entanglement that is proposed for quantum mechanics.
And I'm going to tell you another story which is
very similar. Has Berger, who was the neurologist who invented
the electroncephalogram. When you put the electrodes on in the
(29:07):
skull in the scalp and record electrical activity through through
the scalp, through the skull. He believed in telepathy. He
actually he knew of some person who had a very
similar experience as you had. That a mother who felt
(29:29):
a message from his son who was in war and
he had been wounded. Actually, and she didn't know, And
she invented the electrincephalogram to show scientifically that waves from
the brain could be transmitted across space. He himself found
(29:50):
out that actually the waves that come out of the brain,
but he he also acknowledged that these waves were so
so small, so so so weak, that they couldn't be
transmitted far away. So so it felt this is not
the way telepathy works. But I mean, this is an
(30:13):
open question.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
Yeah, have you done any studies on quantum physics and
the relationship quantum entanglement, the relationship to consciousness. I have,
I have.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
I have gone across these these these studies, I mean,
not not really, not really in depth.
Speaker 8 (30:29):
I I think that, uh uh, this this is a
very hard issue.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
First of all, and and and and I'm afraid I'm
a little bit skeptical about this because at the end,
I think, like other theories, they are and the most
they're they're not possible to be demonstrated. I mean you
can claim no, no consciousness comes in the wave function,
(31:02):
conto whatever. Yeah, but can you see consciousness in a
wave function? Can you detect it?
Speaker 1 (31:11):
That would also apply to what's known as remote viewing.
Are you familiar with that?
Speaker 2 (31:16):
What is that?
Speaker 1 (31:17):
Remote viewing is where someone can be This is something
that started back in the nineteen sixties when there was
fear that there was the Soviet Union at the time
was spying on the United States using what they call
remote viewers, and then the Stanford Research Institute in California
began their own experiments with remote viewing, where someone would
(31:40):
basically be placed in a room and be given a
series of coordinates and would be asked to project their
consciousness to those coordinates and they either tell or draw
what they were seeing. And some of the results were amazing.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
Oh I had no idea about this.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
Yeah, well, perhaps you research I.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
Would like I would like to see those experiments.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
Yeah, sure, absolutely, I'll share. I'll share owre offline. I'll
share the information with you. Okay, great. We had talked
about this before. You had mentioned your cats and dogs
and pets. There are those of us whose sense that
our animal companions display or demonstrate emotions, and this extends
(32:26):
to other non human animals. How do we measure consciousness
in non human animals? And what are the the ethical
implications that we have.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
Yes, yes, that's a that's a good question. I think
what we can do is to find good correlates. Again, correlates.
It's a correlate. The correlate. Correlation does not mean causation.
A correlate of an emotion. You can have a very
good physiological correlate of emotion. And then if you see
(33:03):
these correlates in an animal beat a crab, or be
a mouse, or be a monkey, well you can safely
conclude that this animal could be could be sentient, and
then you should be careful about how you treat it.
M But I don't think we can see the subjective
(33:29):
experience of an animal.
Speaker 1 (33:33):
And ethically, how would this apply to the fact that
many people consume animals for food.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
Yeah, that's well, yeah, but that's I mean, actually, plants
are also alive. I mean, but we need to eat something.
I think this this, this is going to be changing
because the synthetic food is becoming a big industry these days.
(34:08):
I don't know if it's going to replace natural food,
but it is becoming a big industry, and probably people
who have these concerns will have the possibility of eating
things that are are not biological in a way.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
We have today. We have vegetarians and vegans who basically
refrain from eating meat, and vegans refrain from dairy and
eggs and all of that stuff. That type of ethic.
Do you think that's an important ethic for us to examine.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
Well, I think as long as there's people who's concerned
about it, it's important. M Personally, I do eat meat
and I do it fish, but I understand people who doesn't.
I have relatives who are began, and I respect them
all the time. I mean, it's there's no problem, But
(35:11):
I don't think this can be imposed as a rule.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
You had touched upon this before. You said that you
do not think this is the case. But are there
those who believe that consciousness can emerge in artificial systems
such as AI, artificial intelligence and language models.
Speaker 2 (35:33):
Yeah? Yes, And then again, since these theories are not demonstrable,
they are not I mean, they cannot be proved, they
cannot be wrong. Either. So if somebody says a large
language model is in fact conscious, there's no way to
(35:58):
reject that hypot This is That's why it's I think
it's not scientific because in science you need to propose
hypothesis that are rejectable mm hm, A scientific through truth
truth in quotes. It is a statement that can in
(36:18):
principle be wrong. Like newtona mechanics. Mechanics works pretty well
until you go into other scale in in in in
cosmic uh, in cosmology, whatever you know, and then NEWTONA
mechanics doesn't work anymore. Hm. It's the same for consciousness.
(36:43):
You know, you need to show that this theory you
know works, and and and and by assuming that that
that that that a computer is or is not conscious,
you're not proving any think you're just assuming.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
And tell us a little more about this concept, these
large language models and what has been said about them.
Speaker 2 (37:11):
I think, I think, I think I'm not I'm not
an expert on a on a I but I think
that large language models are are are an impressive tool
for us. We can do many many things with them,
and and and they will expand our our our knowledge
(37:32):
and our capabilities way beyond what we can do now hm.
Whether they post a thread for us, it depends on
who manages them. I think I think that the main,
the main issue about the development of AI is that
(37:53):
it may lead to inequalities, for example, to two people
having an excess of power over the other people, uh,
et cetera. I think I think this is this is
the main concern to me, rather than than than that
language models are going to control us. Now there's there's
(38:14):
I think I think there's always going to be someone
controlling this, uh, either the state or a big corporation,
et cetera.
Speaker 1 (38:23):
And I think the the implication is like any tool.
You can take a tool, you can take a hammer,
and when used properly, a hammer is used for construction
and for building, but if used improperly, it could hurt someone.
So that's what we're talking about.
Speaker 2 (38:37):
Here, exactly exactly. I think I think that uh uh
uh a I should be regulated in some way. The
problem is, how do you regulate something that that changes
practically every day. I mean, you make a rule and
then and then it results that that the rule is
it becomes obsolete for some reason. So this is this
(39:00):
is uh an important tissue. Yes, I mean some some
very big exponents of a I have already claimed that
that uh, thebras for AI should be should be stopped
and everything, but but they keep doing it anyway.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
So I think AI, if used properly, could be a
wonderful tool, especially in education.
Speaker 2 (39:27):
Yeah, and not only in education, in science. Actually, an
overprice in chemistry is the use of UH uh an
a I to predict and and and uh even to
design protein structures. So so yes, yes, a I can
be of great benefit for for us.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
Ultimate and ultimately AI for medical diagnostics.
Speaker 2 (39:51):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm sure of that. And uh I
I even think that a AI can be creative. I
think I can can become to write good musical pieces,
m to write good model loved novels. I mean, in
(40:17):
the future. This is a possible. This is a possibility,
and why not. What's a problem about it?
Speaker 1 (40:23):
Well, I write poetry. When I write poetry, it's my
creative process, and my emotions come to play. If they
I have emotions, I don't know if.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
Yeah, well, but but they they may know, they may
know how to how to trigger an emotion in you.
Speaker 1 (40:45):
I think we should keep poets for the poets and
composing composers.
Speaker 2 (40:49):
All right, all right, all right.
Speaker 1 (40:52):
My guest is doctor Francisco Aboids his book A History
of Bodies, Brains and Minds, The Evolution of Life and Consciousness.
We'll be back with more after these words on the
Olden Times Radio Network.
Speaker 9 (41:05):
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Speaker 13 (43:05):
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Speaker 1 (43:21):
Back on Vox Novus. My guest this week, doctor Francisco Aboitis.
We're talking about his new book, A History of Bodies,
Brains and Minds, The Evolution of Life and Consciousness. Doctor
boys to humans who suffer brain damage manifest differences in consciousness.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
Well, in a way, yes, some of them do. Some
of them become unaware of things. For example, there's there's
a condition which usually happens with a stroke in the
barietal in the in the the front or parietal load
in the room left side of the brain. That is
(44:04):
called neglect. People see, can see, they have no perceptual
problem of whatever is going on. Mh to their left,
to their right, to the right side, sorry, to their
left side. Sorry. And despite they can perceive it, they
(44:24):
don't pay attention to it and they're not conscious of it.
So so so the half of the world is in
existence to them. Of course, this is this is a
problem of consciousness. And there are many other instances of that.
For example, uh uh, well, psychedelic drugs, psychedelic drugs or
(44:47):
there's no question that they alter our level of consciousness.
The point is, I mean, all this, all these u
uh alterations of consciousness make something very clear that consciousness
(45:08):
requires a brain to work. Without a brain, we don't
have consciousness. Whether we have consciousness just with the brain
and not the rest of the body, well, that's an
open question, and there's there's a big discussion about that.
Whether just the brain is sufficient to generate consciousness. I
(45:33):
think the brain has to be embedded in a body.
But that's that's those those are very important questions.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
Yeah, I've read and seen stories about people who have
suffered brain injuries and all of a sudden become savant
in a specific area. Some become musical savants where they're
playing piano, they had never played piano before, speaking different languages.
Are you familiar with any.
Speaker 14 (45:59):
Of these some of it, some of it some Sometimes
what happens is that, I mean with a lesions, some
some areas become disinhibited mhm.
Speaker 2 (46:13):
And then people show some behaviors that they didn't do,
or some some some capacities that they didn't show before.
That that that may happen. It's very unlikely, very unlikely.
Mostly brain damage produces a decreasing function rather than increasing function,
(46:37):
But that may happen.
Speaker 1 (46:40):
What are the evolutionary benefits of consciousness, if any?
Speaker 2 (46:47):
We don't know. We don't know. Actually what what what
if we weren't all automata but behave like like we do,
but being automata, we could have survived, you could have
done everything. Why does consciousness arise in these things? Actually?
I don't know. I think, and this is the I
think this is the most important question of all. And
(47:10):
I don't think science by itself will solve this question,
because why are we consciousness? Like lightnings? Ask why there's
something instead of nothing? Why? Why do we have these
vivid experiences of things?
Speaker 1 (47:32):
What is the consciousness pyramid?
Speaker 2 (47:36):
The consciousness pyramid is my view of consciousness in the
sense that consciousness is ground on biological processes. First of
olders there are some basic processes like self maintenance, for example.
Then you come to learning capacities, Then you come to
(47:57):
making wrath models of the world, and then you come
to have language and an autobiographical memory and a description
of the world and all that is. It's the compression
of all these different levels that actually make consciousness. In
(48:19):
my view, uh, how does how do they do it?
I have no idea, but but I think it consciousness
emerges on this, on the on this, on this multi
level interaction. Yeah. Uh. The point is that actually the
higher levels of consciousness like like for example, like like
(48:40):
you were talking about speaking, or or or or making
judgments or whatever, you know, well, artificial intelligence is doing
them right now, but not necessarily these artificial intelligence are conscious.
Speaker 1 (48:58):
So I'm sorry, go ahead, I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (49:00):
So so that's why I think the biology has to
be behind mm hmmm.
Speaker 1 (49:06):
Are there spiritual ramifications of consciousness in terms of faith
and religion?
Speaker 2 (49:14):
I think faith, But I think I think the human
being will always have faith and religion. I think it's
it's it. And this is because there are things we
cannot explain, not even science can explain them. So what
else do you have?
Speaker 1 (49:29):
Do you see these though, as a connection with consciousness?
Speaker 2 (49:33):
Well, I think consciousness is is a great mystery of life.
And and if that has to do with something supernatural
or or or with God whatever, I I am not
sure of that, but I think at least the window
is open in this, in this direction.
Speaker 1 (49:54):
What do you see as the future study of consciousness.
Speaker 2 (49:58):
Well, I think we will become very good at detecting
distinct consciousness states. We will be able to to develop
very sophisticated neuro correlates of consciousness using AI especially m hm,
so we can be we will be able to to
(50:21):
to record brain activity and and and uh and uh
see what people is thinking about for example. Mhm. But actually,
this is done already. There are several experiments, very recent
experiments that show this can be done. And and and
actually there's there's a recent paper in the journal Neuron
(50:45):
where where researchers communicated directly to human beings through their
uh electric electro physiological recordings without need to talk between themselves. Uh.
But this, I mean this, this detection of our thoughts
(51:07):
will not is not the same as the subjective experience
of having the thought.
Speaker 1 (51:19):
Yeah, it's fascinating that there have been many science fiction
works in which the beings have evolved to a very
high state and there's no longer a need for speech,
that everything is transmitted through thought.
Speaker 2 (51:33):
Yeah. Oh oh, let's see, let's see about it. I'm
not sure. I'm not sure this this, this will work
for us as humans.
Speaker 15 (51:43):
But but, but I have to say that today progress
is really really interesting in this direction.
Speaker 2 (51:59):
They're they're very, very, very interesting and amazing things that
are that are being done these days.
Speaker 1 (52:05):
The philosopher Reneeda Kart famously said coguito orgosum, translated as
I think therefore I am from the standpoint of neuroscience,
does thought imply existence?
Speaker 2 (52:21):
From my own standpoint, yes, I think scientists tend to.
In general, they tend to they try to to to
to get away with this assuming objectivity in the sense
(52:42):
that everything, every scientific statement, and every scientific observation needs
the presence of at least two independent observers. That that
I agree that whatever is being observed is the same thing.
But with consciousness, that doesn't work because consciousness there is
(53:05):
only one person who experiences it. So that's why I
think at the end the cards is correct.
Speaker 4 (53:13):
Mm.
Speaker 2 (53:14):
Hm. Is I think therefore I am that's every That's
where everything starts.
Speaker 12 (53:19):
Hmm.
Speaker 1 (53:21):
What would you like readers to take away from a
history of bodies, brains and minds, the evolution of life
and consciousness?
Speaker 2 (53:31):
Well, I I want I want them to to first
of all, gets a sense of the of of the
miracle of of biological evolution, and how biological evolution is
able to generate all that we see on Earth particularly
are very complex brains, and that and that consciousness emerges
(53:54):
from all this processes, although we may not know how
that how how it works.
Speaker 1 (54:01):
And what else.
Speaker 2 (54:03):
And what else? Well, that's there's a sense of continuity,
you know, between even pretty biotic line life. You know,
before life was cons constituted as a first sell until us.
I mean, there's a history in this. There's a history,
(54:28):
and and this history is bound by the process of
natural selection. M hmm. I think even language, which is
one of the great mysteries, I think is the result
of biological evolution.
Speaker 1 (54:45):
My guest, doctor Francisco Avoides his book A History of Bodies,
Brains and Minds, the Evolution of Life and Consciousness. And
I must say to our listeners, especially those who are
not trained in science or have a background in science,
this is a very fascinating and easy to read book
for non scientists. He really lays it out in a
(55:06):
way that you will thoroughly understand everything he's sharing. And
I'm grateful to doctor Francisco Boids for writing it this way.
So please share with our listeners where they can get
your book and find out more about you.
Speaker 2 (55:16):
Yeah, they can. They can get this book on Amazon,
on m T press Bookstore, and in any any internet bookshelf.
The book is also available for free if you want
(55:41):
to just download it in in in in m T press.
But but but you can buy a hard copy from
m T press to or from Amazon from wherever you
want to choose.
Speaker 1 (55:53):
It and your web page there.
Speaker 2 (55:56):
My web page is Francisco avoid is dot neuroscience.
Speaker 1 (56:03):
Doctor Boorters. Thank you so much for joining us and
sharing this amazing and wonderful work that you do.
Speaker 2 (56:09):
Thank you Victor, and thank you for.
Speaker 1 (56:12):
Joining us on Vox Novis. I'm Victor the Voice Furman.
Have a wonderful week
Vox Novus, the New Voice, Vox Novus, the New Dimension,
Vox Novus thought and movement leaders who will share from
their experience and offer tools to help us navigate our
rapidly changing world. My name is Victor Furman. Welcome to
(00:28):
Vox Novus, the New Voice. What is consciousness and how
did it emerge? How has our understanding of consciousness changed
over the years, and is there evidence of consciousness non locality?
My guest this week on Vox Novus, Doctor Francisco Abodes
(00:53):
is the director of the Interdisciplinary Center for Neuroscience and
Professor of Psychiatry at the Antifica Universidad Katolica de Chile.
His research includes the evolution of the brain and cognition
and the neurocognitive underpinnings of conditions such as ADHD, autism,
(01:14):
multiple sclerosis, and epilepsy. He joins me this week to
share his research and new book, A History of Bodies,
Brains and Minds, The Evolution of Life and Consciousness. Please
join me in welcoming to Vox Novus, doctor Francisco Aboites.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
Thank you very much, Victor for this invitation.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Thank you for joining us and sharing your study, your
research and all of your wonderful work. Please share with
our listeners your path and what inspired your career in
neuroscience and the study of consciousness.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Yeah, thank you very much for this question. Is actually
my latest book is pretty autobiographical in this sense. I
started just as as a kid, just just I was
just wondered by about the the how could life be?
You know? And I was really really interested in animals
(02:13):
and plants and in how life could be, you know,
the way it is. And then I then then I
it passed through me in a class in a high
school work we had to do, I started reading about
Charles Darwin, and I found that illuminating, you know, a
(02:37):
very simple theory that could explain the whole diversity of life.
Really really blew my head. And uh, from then on,
I just decided to go into biology. My family was really,
you know, uh hesitant about this because you know, they
wanted to be they wanted me to be a doctor,
(02:58):
a medical doctor. But but when anyhow, I ended up
studying biology. And when I studied biology, I began to
wonder about what mind is. Well it's not that I
understand what life is, but this this new question what
mind is? What? What what is consciousness came out as
(03:20):
a very very important question, and it's of course very
related to what life is, but it's a different level
of of of of understanding.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
Prior to your latest book, A History of Bodies, Brains
and Minds, The Evolution of Life and Consciousness, you authored
A Brain for Speech and A View from Evolutionary Neuroanatomy.
What inspired those books and what do you share with
readers in them?
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Yeah, well, the first book, A Brain for Speech, actually
it's the same book, A Brain for Speech. I View
from Evolutionary in ner Anatomy is related to to a
longstanding uh question I have had is which is how
did how are we the only animals who can speak?
(04:14):
What happened in evolution that we acquired language? Actually, linguists,
usually traditional linguists usually think, you know, that language is
something totally different from biology. Many linguists think like this,
or used to think like this. So I was really,
you know, motivated to know how language evolved through the
(04:39):
rules of natural selection, And the first book has to
do with this, to put a context of historical biology
about language, about how we you know, almost appiens or
our ancestors from orectors or whatever, you know, became able
(05:02):
to communicate with each other with symbols that making reference
to things, et cetera. So to me, it actually the
origin of language is one of the one of the
great questions in biology, just like the origin of mind,
just like the origin of life.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
What inspired your new book, A History of Bodies, Brains
and minds, the evolution of life and consciousness?
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Actually this is this is the the result. Actually, I
attempted to make a synthesis of all my work and
all my ideas about about the evolution of life in
this planet. I have been working on this for a
long time. I studied the the the brains of of reptiles,
(05:57):
of mammals, of humans, and my, my, my, my main
question is how is the process of evolution governing this
increasing complexity in brain structure and behavior. And what I
(06:18):
found in incredible is that the Winnian the Winian notion
of natural selection can account for this, which is probably
the most the most challenging of all questions in structural biology.
In the biology of structure. Structural biology I mean by
(06:38):
by the anatomy, the physiology, et cetera. The concept of
mind to me is something else but but but regarding biology, itself.
M hm. Evolution accounts for the aston astondingly complexity of
(06:59):
our brain. Mm hm.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
How do you personally define consciousness?
Speaker 2 (07:07):
There are so many different definitions of consciousness, and that's
that's the main problem with its study. H I think
that it depends so much on how you do you
understand what consciousness is, on the explanations that that that
(07:32):
that you will make. H to me, there's there's an
issue about consciousness that is that is very difficult or
impossible to solve. Which is the the qualitative subjective experience
of us being conscious? I think it's it's we We
we cannot grasp this. The only the only people who
(07:56):
can grasp this sensation is the people who is living
it also, I mean ourselves. I am fully conscious that
I'm conscious, but I I am really extending this my
(08:16):
consciousness into other people. I'm not able to see the
consciousness of other people. And that is a problem to
study it because I'm Consciousness is not an observable object
for scientists, only for one person, which is the one
who lives it. I don't know if I made myself clear, yes.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
You did, but there's no way of someone using, for example,
neuro tools to track consciousness. There's no way of doing
that at all.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
What you can have is what is called naral correlates
to consciousness, which is, I have this physiological activity and
this fits with this subjective experience of some people. You know, yes,
But how this psisiological activity becomes a subjective a subjective
(09:16):
experience is not explained.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Okay, so seeing the seeing the needles.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
So it's it's like two realms of phenomenology, you.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
Know, understood, understood. What is the earliest evidence for consciousness
in the evolution of life?
Speaker 2 (09:34):
Oh, that's that's probably the hardest question of all, you know. Uh,
there's a word that has been very used these days,
which is sentienced, which is the ability to the capacity
to feel, which is very closely related to my idea
(09:55):
of this deep consciousness subjective consciousness. And which animals are
in fact sentient, it's a big question. I am pretty
sure my dog and my cat are sentient, but this
is something that I project into them. H I am
(10:15):
not positive of that. I am positive that, for example,
you are conscious and my kids are conscious because we
talk and and and we are we have evolved to
make these assumptions. But with animals it's different, and the
lower you go in the scale, the more difficult becomes
(10:39):
to assert that the animal is or not conscious. Some
people now say that even plants are conscious. Some people
claim that that that cells are conscious. Some people even
say that that consciousness is related to the uncertainty principle.
I mean to to quantum mechanics, the to the collapse
(11:01):
of the wave function h when the observer alter the
the the the wave function. Actually, I think the the
the diversity of ideas about this, about the the when
does consciousness appear is a sign of the difficulty of
(11:24):
the problem. We have no idea, so to speak, you know,
we we don't have a notion about when a subjective
experience appears in nature.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
So, for example, anthropologists looking at ancient chromagnut and Homo sapiens,
can they determine at what point drawing and language were
implied replied, and then determine the origin of consciousness in
human beings.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I mean in in a way
that's correct. If if if if, if, if you have
language I have, I have good reason to suppose that
you are conscious. But you see, now we have artificial
intelligence that are pretty good at language and and uh,
and personally, I don't think they are really conscious. Uh,
(12:21):
some people do think they are conscious. I don't think so.
But the problem is a language by itself. It's not
it's not proof of consciousness. And yeah, probably our our
our relatives, the Neanderthals, and they did have a degree
(12:43):
of consciousness. I would tend to think that way. But
the point is that we cannot prove that.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
What are the leading theories of consciousness and where do
they fall short.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
That? I think there are two main leading theories of consciousness.
When the integrated information theory, which asserts that consciousness is
a very mathematical theory, asserts that consciousness results from uh,
I'm going to say, it's simple from very very high complexity,
(13:24):
and it's a matter of complexity and where actually the
system is so complex that it depends totally on its
on the dynamicals of its own part. It's like a
closed system. I mean, this is an interesting theory to
(13:44):
think about it. But then again, you cannot prove this,
you know, you cannot prove you can say, well, uh, yeah,
I mean we do have this level of consciousness, so
this system should be conscious. For example, the I T
the integrated information theory claims that that computers cannot be
(14:06):
conscious because they lack the sufficient complexity. Okay hm. But
then again, like I said, if you have something that conscious,
how can you prove that it is in fact conscious
or you just assume it is conscious Because it is complex,
(14:28):
you cannot demonstrate its consciousness. And the other theory is
the global workspace theory, which actually this theory refers more
to the cognitive aspects of consciousness, like our capacity to plan,
to to make autobiographical memory, to to think about ourselves,
(14:54):
to see the world as a unified h system, et cetera.
But this theory is more related to cognition than than
to the real deep aspects of subjective consciousness. In my way, m.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
Our emotions evidence of consciousness.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
The subjective the subjective experience of emotions. Yes, in my view, yes,
they are related to to to sentence. Uh, the an emotion.
You can you can have see a physiological reaction that
(15:40):
you can attribute to an emotion. M hmm. This physiological
reaction is about the same as the neurophysiological correlate of
of me seeing the color red. For example, I mean
I can, I can I can look at the brain
(16:02):
and see when I see red, I mean this this,
this part of the brain will act be active. So
on huh, Well, emotions are the same. There's a physiological
process that we we we correlate this physiological cross process
with a subjective experience of that is an emotion. H
(16:24):
but but but it's again we can't. We'll come again
to the same question. It is not the same the
the the the the physical process than the subjective experience.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
Okay, so I'm not experienced in life and I touch
something that's hot and I burn myself. I withdraw my
hand and I'm in pain, and I recognize that I'm
never going to do that again because by touching that
I'm going to get burned. Is that a form of
learning consciousness?
Speaker 2 (16:56):
I mean in a way. Yeah. But but see you
can see that that that that snail can do this too, mhm,
and and that probably a cell does it. Actually, there's
there's a recent article that shows that health show cells
show the basic not neurance cells, just cells show the
(17:19):
basic learning capacities, as as as brain is like habituation
for example, so that your ability to learn doesn't necessarily
imply again that you're conscious.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
There are some arguments as to whether newborn infants have
consciousness or does it developed later on in them. What's
your experience with that?
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Yeah, Yeah, that's that's that's that's another another important question.
Some viewers think that consciousness is acquired in the one. Actually,
the integrated information theory considers that the brain becomes sufficiently
complex inside could becoming in sufficiently complex inside the one
(18:10):
before birth, so there could be consciousness even without sensory input.
That's another point of interests of the integrated information theory.
This theory does not require sensory input for consciousness to exist. Personally,
(18:31):
I do think it requires and I think babies this
is this is my view and could be totally wrong,
but I think babies slowly acquire consciousness as they interact
with the environment.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
That's I think that's an important question, the question of
interacting with environment, because all life interacts with its environment. Yeah,
does all life? You talked about some people thinking that
single cellular organisms have a form of consciousness. Is consciousness
something that's available to all forms of life?
Speaker 2 (19:08):
Ah? Well, I mean in principle yes, but I think
that in order to have sentence you need a level
of complexity. But in principle, you're right. That's the notion
of the pan consciousness, that everything you know, every living
being disconscious, you know, and some some some people even
(19:31):
say that that even matter is consciousness conscious. I would
say that there is some point in which subjective experience
appear in the scale of evolution, but I am not
sure where that is, or in the scale or in
the in the life of an individual. Mhm.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
There was a Japanese scientist who conducted experiments with water.
Are you familiar with those with those experiments?
Speaker 2 (20:00):
No? No, just let me know.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
He did experiments with water. And when he spoke to
the water with a nice voice, when he had good
thoughts towards the water, when he did positive things around
the water, the formation that he could see under a
microscope of the individual atoms that make up the water
(20:22):
had a beautiful pattern. And then when he was negative,
they changed the pattern completely and they looked painful, actually,
some of the images that came out. And this was
done with water and with ice. What do you think
about it?
Speaker 2 (20:36):
I had no idea about this experiment, and I would
have to see it, and I have I would have
those to to to to read the work and and
and and study that had I had no idea if
if if these were were correct, if this was correct. Still,
(20:57):
we don't know if this uh uh difference that you see,
this this effect that you see is the result of
being conscious. I'm not I'm not sure that that you
could infer this from this results.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
Well, I will find that information for you and I'll
send it to you, sir, so you can refer to
it in for opinion on that after our interview.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
That's interesting.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
My guest is doctor Francisco aboit Is. His book is
called A History of Bodies, Brains and Minds, the Evolution
of Life and Consciousness. Please share with our listeners where
they can get your books and find out more about
you and your work.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
Actually, you can follow me in in in Francisco. Avoid
is that Instagram. That's my main page, and we published
everything that that we do in there.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
And your books are available.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
My books are available in Amazon and uh in in
any any electronic books. Actually, my second book is also
available in mit Press store, and I think there's a
discount rate.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
Wonderful And we'll be back with more after these words.
On the Old Times Radio.
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Speaker 1 (25:31):
Back on Vox Novis, my guest this week is doctor
Francisco Aboidis's book A History of Bodies, Brains and Minds,
The Evolution of Life and Consciousness. Doctor Aboidis, what is
the concept of pan psychism and how does it challenge
our understanding of consciousness.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Well, panpsychism is the notion that everything is conscious. It's
not that just us and this is this This notion
has come out because we we tend to I mean,
first of all, we like Like I said before, we
assume that others, other people is conscious because we speak
(26:18):
with them, we share feelings, we share realities and everything.
And then we assume that others are equally conscious as us.
But then pets are also considered conscious in a way,
you know, and other animals. There's people who think that
that lizards are conscious, that fish are conscious, that octopuses
(26:47):
are conscious, et cetera. When do we stop the line?
Some people they say, there's just no stopping the line.
Everybody is conscious. Consciousness is a property of matter. That's
the most extreme understanding of pan consciousness, that consciousness, like energy,
is a property of matter. The difference is how how
(27:14):
developed these consciousnesses. And in complex structures like our brain,
consciousness is very very strong, but in others, in other systems,
it can be very low.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
I'm going to share a story with you about something
that actually happened to me In nineteen seventy five. I
was in the United States Air Force and I was
stationed in Soul, Korea. One morning, I had a message
in my head and I had no physical evidence, no
phone calls, no letters from my mother back in New York,
(27:50):
six thousand miles away, and the message was is that
I needed to call her. She needed to hear from me.
It was very important that I reach out to her.
No clue whatsoever, no conscious clue whatsoever. I made the
phone call, and in those days we had extension telephones,
and my sister and my mother picked up the phone simultaneously,
(28:12):
and I said, Mom, is there anything wrong? And my
sister exclaimed, oh my god, how did he find out?
And it turned out that she was scheduled for major
surgery the next day. And instinctively, I said to her,
the surgery would be a complete success. She'd have a
complete healing, it would be very rapid, there would be
no problems. She was going to be just fine. She
(28:33):
needed to hear those words from me. Now, is there
a quantum theory of consciousness? Is there a model in
which thoughts display non locality?
Speaker 2 (28:45):
Yeah, yeah, Well, some people believe on this consciousness is
related to the entanglement that is proposed for quantum mechanics.
And I'm going to tell you another story which is
very similar. Has Berger, who was the neurologist who invented
the electroncephalogram. When you put the electrodes on in the
(29:07):
skull in the scalp and record electrical activity through through
the scalp, through the skull. He believed in telepathy. He
actually he knew of some person who had a very
similar experience as you had. That a mother who felt
(29:29):
a message from his son who was in war and
he had been wounded. Actually, and she didn't know, And
she invented the electrincephalogram to show scientifically that waves from
the brain could be transmitted across space. He himself found
(29:50):
out that actually the waves that come out of the brain,
but he he also acknowledged that these waves were so
so small, so so so weak, that they couldn't be
transmitted far away. So so it felt this is not
the way telepathy works. But I mean, this is an
(30:13):
open question.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
Yeah, have you done any studies on quantum physics and
the relationship quantum entanglement, the relationship to consciousness. I have,
I have.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
I have gone across these these these studies, I mean,
not not really, not really in depth.
Speaker 8 (30:29):
I I think that, uh uh, this this is a
very hard issue.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
First of all, and and and and I'm afraid I'm
a little bit skeptical about this because at the end,
I think, like other theories, they are and the most
they're they're not possible to be demonstrated. I mean you
can claim no, no consciousness comes in the wave function,
(31:02):
conto whatever. Yeah, but can you see consciousness in a
wave function? Can you detect it?
Speaker 1 (31:11):
That would also apply to what's known as remote viewing.
Are you familiar with that?
Speaker 2 (31:16):
What is that?
Speaker 1 (31:17):
Remote viewing is where someone can be This is something
that started back in the nineteen sixties when there was
fear that there was the Soviet Union at the time
was spying on the United States using what they call
remote viewers, and then the Stanford Research Institute in California
began their own experiments with remote viewing, where someone would
(31:40):
basically be placed in a room and be given a
series of coordinates and would be asked to project their
consciousness to those coordinates and they either tell or draw
what they were seeing. And some of the results were amazing.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
Oh I had no idea about this.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
Yeah, well, perhaps you research I.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
Would like I would like to see those experiments.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
Yeah, sure, absolutely, I'll share. I'll share owre offline. I'll
share the information with you. Okay, great. We had talked
about this before. You had mentioned your cats and dogs
and pets. There are those of us whose sense that
our animal companions display or demonstrate emotions, and this extends
(32:26):
to other non human animals. How do we measure consciousness
in non human animals? And what are the the ethical
implications that we have.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
Yes, yes, that's a that's a good question. I think
what we can do is to find good correlates. Again, correlates.
It's a correlate. The correlate. Correlation does not mean causation.
A correlate of an emotion. You can have a very
good physiological correlate of emotion. And then if you see
(33:03):
these correlates in an animal beat a crab, or be
a mouse, or be a monkey, well you can safely
conclude that this animal could be could be sentient, and
then you should be careful about how you treat it.
M But I don't think we can see the subjective
(33:29):
experience of an animal.
Speaker 1 (33:33):
And ethically, how would this apply to the fact that
many people consume animals for food.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
Yeah, that's well, yeah, but that's I mean, actually, plants
are also alive. I mean, but we need to eat something.
I think this this, this is going to be changing
because the synthetic food is becoming a big industry these days.
(34:08):
I don't know if it's going to replace natural food,
but it is becoming a big industry, and probably people
who have these concerns will have the possibility of eating
things that are are not biological in a way.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
We have today. We have vegetarians and vegans who basically
refrain from eating meat, and vegans refrain from dairy and
eggs and all of that stuff. That type of ethic.
Do you think that's an important ethic for us to examine.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
Well, I think as long as there's people who's concerned
about it, it's important. M Personally, I do eat meat
and I do it fish, but I understand people who doesn't.
I have relatives who are began, and I respect them
all the time. I mean, it's there's no problem, But
(35:11):
I don't think this can be imposed as a rule.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
You had touched upon this before. You said that you
do not think this is the case. But are there
those who believe that consciousness can emerge in artificial systems
such as AI, artificial intelligence and language models.
Speaker 2 (35:33):
Yeah? Yes, And then again, since these theories are not demonstrable,
they are not I mean, they cannot be proved, they
cannot be wrong. Either. So if somebody says a large
language model is in fact conscious, there's no way to
(35:58):
reject that hypot This is That's why it's I think
it's not scientific because in science you need to propose
hypothesis that are rejectable mm hm, A scientific through truth
truth in quotes. It is a statement that can in
(36:18):
principle be wrong. Like newtona mechanics. Mechanics works pretty well
until you go into other scale in in in in
cosmic uh, in cosmology, whatever you know, and then NEWTONA
mechanics doesn't work anymore. Hm. It's the same for consciousness.
(36:43):
You know, you need to show that this theory you
know works, and and and and by assuming that that
that that that a computer is or is not conscious,
you're not proving any think you're just assuming.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
And tell us a little more about this concept, these
large language models and what has been said about them.
Speaker 2 (37:11):
I think, I think, I think I'm not I'm not
an expert on a on a I but I think
that large language models are are are an impressive tool
for us. We can do many many things with them,
and and and they will expand our our our knowledge
(37:32):
and our capabilities way beyond what we can do now hm.
Whether they post a thread for us, it depends on
who manages them. I think I think that the main,
the main issue about the development of AI is that
(37:53):
it may lead to inequalities, for example, to two people
having an excess of power over the other people, uh,
et cetera. I think I think this is this is
the main concern to me, rather than than than that
language models are going to control us. Now there's there's
(38:14):
I think I think there's always going to be someone
controlling this, uh, either the state or a big corporation,
et cetera.
Speaker 1 (38:23):
And I think the the implication is like any tool.
You can take a tool, you can take a hammer,
and when used properly, a hammer is used for construction
and for building, but if used improperly, it could hurt someone.
So that's what we're talking about.
Speaker 2 (38:37):
Here, exactly exactly. I think I think that uh uh
uh a I should be regulated in some way. The
problem is, how do you regulate something that that changes
practically every day. I mean, you make a rule and
then and then it results that that the rule is
it becomes obsolete for some reason. So this is this
(39:00):
is uh an important tissue. Yes, I mean some some
very big exponents of a I have already claimed that
that uh, thebras for AI should be should be stopped
and everything, but but they keep doing it anyway.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
So I think AI, if used properly, could be a
wonderful tool, especially in education.
Speaker 2 (39:27):
Yeah, and not only in education, in science. Actually, an
overprice in chemistry is the use of UH uh an
a I to predict and and and uh even to
design protein structures. So so yes, yes, a I can
be of great benefit for for us.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
Ultimate and ultimately AI for medical diagnostics.
Speaker 2 (39:51):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm sure of that. And uh I
I even think that a AI can be creative. I
think I can can become to write good musical pieces,
m to write good model loved novels. I mean, in
(40:17):
the future. This is a possible. This is a possibility,
and why not. What's a problem about it?
Speaker 1 (40:23):
Well, I write poetry. When I write poetry, it's my
creative process, and my emotions come to play. If they
I have emotions, I don't know if.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
Yeah, well, but but they they may know, they may
know how to how to trigger an emotion in you.
Speaker 1 (40:45):
I think we should keep poets for the poets and
composing composers.
Speaker 2 (40:49):
All right, all right, all right.
Speaker 1 (40:52):
My guest is doctor Francisco Aboids his book A History
of Bodies, Brains and Minds, The Evolution of Life and Consciousness.
We'll be back with more after these words on the
Olden Times Radio Network.
Speaker 9 (41:05):
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Speaker 13 (43:05):
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Speaker 1 (43:21):
Back on Vox Novus. My guest this week, doctor Francisco Aboitis.
We're talking about his new book, A History of Bodies,
Brains and Minds, The Evolution of Life and Consciousness. Doctor
boys to humans who suffer brain damage manifest differences in consciousness.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
Well, in a way, yes, some of them do. Some
of them become unaware of things. For example, there's there's
a condition which usually happens with a stroke in the
barietal in the in the the front or parietal load
in the room left side of the brain. That is
(44:04):
called neglect. People see, can see, they have no perceptual
problem of whatever is going on. Mh to their left,
to their right, to the right side, sorry, to their
left side. Sorry. And despite they can perceive it, they
(44:24):
don't pay attention to it and they're not conscious of it.
So so so the half of the world is in
existence to them. Of course, this is this is a
problem of consciousness. And there are many other instances of that.
For example, uh uh, well, psychedelic drugs, psychedelic drugs or
(44:47):
there's no question that they alter our level of consciousness.
The point is, I mean, all this, all these u
uh alterations of consciousness make something very clear that consciousness
(45:08):
requires a brain to work. Without a brain, we don't
have consciousness. Whether we have consciousness just with the brain
and not the rest of the body, well, that's an
open question, and there's there's a big discussion about that.
Whether just the brain is sufficient to generate consciousness. I
(45:33):
think the brain has to be embedded in a body.
But that's that's those those are very important questions.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
Yeah, I've read and seen stories about people who have
suffered brain injuries and all of a sudden become savant
in a specific area. Some become musical savants where they're
playing piano, they had never played piano before, speaking different languages.
Are you familiar with any.
Speaker 14 (45:59):
Of these some of it, some of it some Sometimes
what happens is that, I mean with a lesions, some
some areas become disinhibited mhm.
Speaker 2 (46:13):
And then people show some behaviors that they didn't do,
or some some some capacities that they didn't show before.
That that that may happen. It's very unlikely, very unlikely.
Mostly brain damage produces a decreasing function rather than increasing function,
(46:37):
But that may happen.
Speaker 1 (46:40):
What are the evolutionary benefits of consciousness, if any?
Speaker 2 (46:47):
We don't know. We don't know. Actually what what what
if we weren't all automata but behave like like we do,
but being automata, we could have survived, you could have
done everything. Why does consciousness arise in these things? Actually?
I don't know. I think, and this is the I
think this is the most important question of all. And
(47:10):
I don't think science by itself will solve this question,
because why are we consciousness? Like lightnings? Ask why there's
something instead of nothing? Why? Why do we have these
vivid experiences of things?
Speaker 1 (47:32):
What is the consciousness pyramid?
Speaker 2 (47:36):
The consciousness pyramid is my view of consciousness in the
sense that consciousness is ground on biological processes. First of
olders there are some basic processes like self maintenance, for example.
Then you come to learning capacities, Then you come to
(47:57):
making wrath models of the world, and then you come
to have language and an autobiographical memory and a description
of the world and all that is. It's the compression
of all these different levels that actually make consciousness. In
(48:19):
my view, uh, how does how do they do it?
I have no idea, but but I think it consciousness
emerges on this, on the on this, on this multi
level interaction. Yeah. Uh. The point is that actually the
higher levels of consciousness like like for example, like like
(48:40):
you were talking about speaking, or or or or making
judgments or whatever, you know, well, artificial intelligence is doing
them right now, but not necessarily these artificial intelligence are conscious.
Speaker 1 (48:58):
So I'm sorry, go ahead, I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (49:00):
So so that's why I think the biology has to
be behind mm hmmm.
Speaker 1 (49:06):
Are there spiritual ramifications of consciousness in terms of faith
and religion?
Speaker 2 (49:14):
I think faith, But I think I think the human
being will always have faith and religion. I think it's
it's it. And this is because there are things we
cannot explain, not even science can explain them. So what
else do you have?
Speaker 1 (49:29):
Do you see these though, as a connection with consciousness?
Speaker 2 (49:33):
Well, I think consciousness is is a great mystery of life.
And and if that has to do with something supernatural
or or or with God whatever, I I am not
sure of that, but I think at least the window
is open in this, in this direction.
Speaker 1 (49:54):
What do you see as the future study of consciousness.
Speaker 2 (49:58):
Well, I think we will become very good at detecting
distinct consciousness states. We will be able to to develop
very sophisticated neuro correlates of consciousness using AI especially m hm,
so we can be we will be able to to
(50:21):
to record brain activity and and and uh and uh
see what people is thinking about for example. Mhm. But actually,
this is done already. There are several experiments, very recent
experiments that show this can be done. And and and
actually there's there's a recent paper in the journal Neuron
(50:45):
where where researchers communicated directly to human beings through their
uh electric electro physiological recordings without need to talk between themselves. Uh.
But this, I mean this, this detection of our thoughts
(51:07):
will not is not the same as the subjective experience
of having the thought.
Speaker 1 (51:19):
Yeah, it's fascinating that there have been many science fiction
works in which the beings have evolved to a very
high state and there's no longer a need for speech,
that everything is transmitted through thought.
Speaker 2 (51:33):
Yeah. Oh oh, let's see, let's see about it. I'm
not sure. I'm not sure this this, this will work
for us as humans.
Speaker 15 (51:43):
But but, but I have to say that today progress
is really really interesting in this direction.
Speaker 2 (51:59):
They're they're very, very, very interesting and amazing things that
are that are being done these days.
Speaker 1 (52:05):
The philosopher Reneeda Kart famously said coguito orgosum, translated as
I think therefore I am from the standpoint of neuroscience,
does thought imply existence?
Speaker 2 (52:21):
From my own standpoint, yes, I think scientists tend to.
In general, they tend to they try to to to
to get away with this assuming objectivity in the sense
(52:42):
that everything, every scientific statement, and every scientific observation needs
the presence of at least two independent observers. That that
I agree that whatever is being observed is the same thing.
But with consciousness, that doesn't work because consciousness there is
(53:05):
only one person who experiences it. So that's why I
think at the end the cards is correct.
Speaker 4 (53:13):
Mm.
Speaker 2 (53:14):
Hm. Is I think therefore I am that's every That's
where everything starts.
Speaker 12 (53:19):
Hmm.
Speaker 1 (53:21):
What would you like readers to take away from a
history of bodies, brains and minds, the evolution of life
and consciousness?
Speaker 2 (53:31):
Well, I I want I want them to to first
of all, gets a sense of the of of the
miracle of of biological evolution, and how biological evolution is
able to generate all that we see on Earth particularly
are very complex brains, and that and that consciousness emerges
(53:54):
from all this processes, although we may not know how
that how how it works.
Speaker 1 (54:01):
And what else.
Speaker 2 (54:03):
And what else? Well, that's there's a sense of continuity,
you know, between even pretty biotic line life. You know,
before life was cons constituted as a first sell until us.
I mean, there's a history in this. There's a history,
(54:28):
and and this history is bound by the process of
natural selection. M hmm. I think even language, which is
one of the great mysteries, I think is the result
of biological evolution.
Speaker 1 (54:45):
My guest, doctor Francisco Avoides his book A History of Bodies,
Brains and Minds, the Evolution of Life and Consciousness. And
I must say to our listeners, especially those who are
not trained in science or have a background in science,
this is a very fascinating and easy to read book
for non scientists. He really lays it out in a
(55:06):
way that you will thoroughly understand everything he's sharing. And
I'm grateful to doctor Francisco Boids for writing it this way.
So please share with our listeners where they can get
your book and find out more about you.
Speaker 2 (55:16):
Yeah, they can. They can get this book on Amazon,
on m T press Bookstore, and in any any internet bookshelf.
The book is also available for free if you want
(55:41):
to just download it in in in in m T press.
But but but you can buy a hard copy from
m T press to or from Amazon from wherever you
want to choose.
Speaker 1 (55:53):
It and your web page there.
Speaker 2 (55:56):
My web page is Francisco avoid is dot neuroscience.
Speaker 1 (56:03):
Doctor Boorters. Thank you so much for joining us and
sharing this amazing and wonderful work that you do.
Speaker 2 (56:09):
Thank you Victor, and thank you for.
Speaker 1 (56:12):
Joining us on Vox Novis. I'm Victor the Voice Furman.
Have a wonderful week
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