10 YRS AGO FLAGSHIP: Keller & Powell discuss Raw including Summer Rae-Ziggler-Rusev, Sting taunting Seth, Paige vs. Sasha, more

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Speaker 2 (01:05):
Now.

Speaker 3 (01:06):
PW Torch and Spreaker bring you the Wade Keller Pro
Wrestling Podcast.

Speaker 1 (01:15):
Ten years ago. This week on the Flagship, I was
joined by Jason Powell from Pro Wrestling dot Net and
we talked about happenings on Raw from the night before,
including the summer Ray Dulf Ziegler, Russev situation, Sting, Taunting, Seth, Rollins,
page against Sasha Banks, John Cena, and Primetime versus New
Day and Seth and more. And then on the previously
VIP exclusive after show portion, over twenty minutes of talk

(01:37):
on Brett Hart's comments on Holcogan and Roddy Piper, edgend
Christian on the Stone Cold Podcast, the future of three
hour raws and of TNA, on Destination America and more
So Let's get to it. This originally live stream with
live callers throughout on September eighth, twenty fifteen, and it
is today's Way Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast ten years ago
flagship flashback for Sunday, September seventh, twenty twenty five.

Speaker 4 (02:00):
Loot to.

Speaker 1 (02:15):
Welcome to vp W Torch Live Cast. I am Wade Keller,
editor and publisher of the Pro Wrestling Torch weekly newsletter
since nineteen eighty seven and also Pwtorch dot com and
now the revival of my blog, Wadekeller dot com with
daily updates both in written form and video blog format.
Check it out at Wadekeller dot com if you haven't yet,

(02:39):
also check out my appearances on the Steve Austin podcast
The Steve Austin Show. I've done three shows in a
row with Steve. We reviewed the first half of Summer
Slam last Tuesday on the Steve Austin Family Friendly Podcast,
and then Thursday on Steve Austin Unleashed we talked in
depth about the second half of Summer Slam the top matches,
and then just dropped earlier today on the Regular Stone

(03:01):
or Steve Austin Podcast, we talked about NXT and then
Steve Austin handed the microphone over to me, the hosting
chair over to me in a sense, as he let
me interview him on a wide array of topics. I
pretty much got to pick a bunch of random questions
to ask him. It was a really good time. We
were only going to go about fifty minutes and we
ended up going closer to an hour and a half.

(03:22):
Some great feedback on Twitter already for that show, so
check it out. Steve Boston to me, three shows in
a row, I am pretty sure there won't be a
fourth in a row, So enjoyed while you can, and
of course, last night Steve Boston hosted the Stone Cold
Podcast as they call it on WWW Network, and he

(03:42):
hosted that or his guests were Edge and Christian and
that is on WWW network. All right, Well it is Tuesday,
September eighth, two thy fifteen and joining me as usual
on Tuesdays is Jason Powell from Pro Wrestling dot Net. Jason,
Welcome to the program.

Speaker 5 (04:00):
Hey, good to be here. Wait, how are you?

Speaker 1 (04:01):
I'm doing well raw last night Jason a thumbs up
down or in the middle.

Speaker 5 (04:08):
Thumbs down, big thumbs down because I get so frustrated
every year that they have Labor Day free for the
most part of it. They were opposed by a college
football game. Is their last chance to do something to
get people to at least flip over forgiving. Maybe you
can't fight every viewer obviously when it comes to Monday
night football, but they just don't do anything way. They

(04:31):
just roll over and play dead. And it's like they
might as well just like tell people go ahead and
watch Monday night football next week.

Speaker 1 (04:37):
And I think they thought they did a better job
than usual, and in one category they did. We actually
know two matches next week. You actually Jason on Pro
Wrestling dot Net got to put up a headline that
said two matches announced for Raw, and you got to
do it six days ahead of time. Do they get
no credit for two title matches announced a week ahead?

Speaker 5 (04:56):
I'll give them credit for one of the two because
I think actually the women's match may have some interest
for people. I can't get excited about another New Day
and Primetime players, just another match with those teams for
the tag titles. It's okay, it's nice that they have
these matches announced, but are they really I mean, is
it going to be enough to make people go, oh wow,

(05:17):
I have to see that season premiere of Raw?

Speaker 1 (05:20):
No? Absolutely not. And yeah, I was kind of almost
expecting less from them in a way because I think
they sort of thrown the towel on Labor Day and
just think, well, you know, it's just a throwaway show.
But you're right as the last show before Monday Night Football,
and I mean, we know Ro's going to be decimated
in the ratings next week because our Minnesota Vikings are
kicking off Monday Night Football this year. Yeah, they didn't

(05:42):
set a lot out there, but then again, what do
they have. I mean, they give away just about anything
that they can give away short of brock Lesnar Undertaker.
In sting wrestling, they give away just about everything they can.
They don't have a lot left to do, so at
this point, I think they might be thinking, well, Summer, Ray,
RUSSEVDL Siegler, that soap opera is two weeks old, and

(06:04):
maybe in their mind they think between the Divas countdown,
the take title match announced, and the saga, the TMZ
style saga with RUSSEV and Summer and Zigler, they might
think they're doing as good as they can. I mean,
I'm not quite sure what else they have to give,
which is a problem in and of itself in terms
of making next week a big hook.

Speaker 5 (06:24):
How about using that army of a creative team that
they have to come up with a cliffhang or something,
you know. I mean, they know when this date falls
every year, they know when football starts. It's the week
after Labor Days, when the Monday night football season begins.
I mean, obviously they got confused, I would hope by
scheduling the Royal Rumble for the same night as the
AFC and NFC championship games, which is just the most

(06:45):
idiotic thing I've ever seen, But they know when this
one is. There's no confusion there, and you know, give
us a cliffhang. If you don't have a surprise to
bring in, you know's something to advertise, just build up
to a big show. For instance, I don't even know
what for what re but this week Ring of Honor
has a championship edition, and you can't really do that
when you have Night of Champions coming up. But I
think there's different themes you could go with. There's just

(07:07):
different things you could do. I don't think that this
isn't this is going to get the job done. I
like the women's match. I'd like it a lot more
if Nicky had been a consistent heel gloating about this
and they built up to the point where people were
actually happy that Charlotte had a chance to kill the
record before she breaks, to prevent her from breaking it.

(07:28):
But that's not happening. Everyone's just like, okay, cool, this
should be it's gonna be cool to see Charlotte hit
a title match. But there's no apprehension. There's nobody just
excited about this, and so it's just another missed opportunity
for them.

Speaker 1 (07:40):
We have an email about the Zigler summer Ray Lana
sag and we'll start with that. In terms of listener interaction, Jason,
we'll go to phone calls. If you do want to
get in line on the phone banks, the number is
six four six seven to one nine to A two eight.
As always, you can find our show at PW torchslivecast
dot com or on iTunes or pop popular podcast apps.

(08:01):
Just search p your Torch or PW your Torch Live
cast and you can email us during the show. If
you're listening to us live, it is five point thirty
six Eastern right now on Tuesday, September eighth, and you
can email us during the show at PW Torchlive Cast
at gmail dot com. All right, so the first email
is Anthony from Australia. He said, I didn't think the
Ziggler Summer Lana trash could get any worse, but Ziggler

(08:21):
did Ziggler really drop the She told me that last
night line. That's what I'd expect from an immature high
school or college kid. Definitely not from a fine upstanding
character like Dolf. And then he put in parentheses and sarcasm.
But seriously, a couple questions on this would Vince McMahon
and Kevin Dunn have fed him that line or do
you think it was an ad lib? Two, You wouldn't
think the chief brand officer would be comfortable with a

(08:42):
brand portraying women as they are in this angle, would you?
And three must this be delivering strong segment ratings for
it to be taking up a good twenty minutes of
the show when you add the tacky video run twice.
He says, by the way, the ps or the Cesarro
push was fun while they let it last. Jason. Your
response to.

Speaker 5 (09:00):
That, well, let's start with Czarro, hope, because there was
no push. He had a bunch of competitive matches and
he lost them all. There was no real push there.
And there's still a way they can flip this. I've
said it before, I'll say it again. You can build
up to you can start acknowledging that he's coming up
short and then build up to a breakthrough win where
all of a sudden, he said, on a new course.

(09:20):
But I don't see any signs of that happening. It
doesn't look like he just sees another guy right now,
and it's too bad. The whole lot of thing, Well,
I guess, Sigler, Yeah, I'm sure that line was scripted.
I mean, the setup was there. I don't think Dolf
is going to feel comfortable enough going out there and
just add libbing that line. Maybe I'm wrong, but that
seems scripted to me, just because of the setup. And

(09:43):
I couldn't believe they were so proud of that video
package where they played it twice and it wasn't like,
you know, once the beginning of the show. Once very
late in the show. It felt like it was within
fifteen twenty minutes, but you know, the whole show was
kind of a It was kind of a mess. I
don't even know if that timeline's right, but it felt
like I just saw Why am I seeing this again?

Speaker 1 (10:01):
No, I agree. I was surprised when that ran a
second time. I thought, you know, maybe there's gonna be
something different at it. And yeah, they just must have
been proud of it and wanted to make sure everybody
could see that TMZ style video. Yeah, it was a
dumb line, but it sort of fit the storyline. I
thought at the end of it. Jason, my kind of
main thought after the segment is Russev seems like the

(10:23):
baby Face Summer ray is somewhat sympathetic. Dolph seems like
the chauvinist, untrustworthy jerk, and a lot of looks like
she's done the smart thing and said I want no
part of this. I'm just I'm just gonna fall on
my wrist and go disappear for a few months. Was
was there something about Russev that was heelish in the
way that this has been portrayed so far, only.

Speaker 5 (10:43):
That you know, I think he's the mastermind, if you
want to call it that, behind manipulating Lana into thinking
Dolf may actually have done this, I mean, which is
just so ridiculous. I mean when you just stop and
think about this woman who was dressing like Lana and
was there to go after her ex boyfriend is now suddenly,

(11:06):
you know, shooting straight with her and talking about what
a what a sleeve bag golf siggler is and the
whole thing is absurd. It's just it's bad sports entertainment storyline,
soap op orcillitess.

Speaker 1 (11:18):
Yeah, and yet I think they just think they're onto
something here, you know, and and I you know, people say,
well you got to have you know, you don't have
to but wwwe is playing to a lot of different people.
And some of the people they're playing to are people who,
you know, women who are watching the show, perhaps with
their boyfriend or husband or something like that, who's kind
of deciding, hey, this is my wrestling night, so let's
let's keep the women interested. Or there's people who discovered

(11:41):
WW because they're total diva, so we want to have
some of this. I'm not sure this interests the men
a lot, but but I think that the issue isn't
so much including this, but including a bad version of this.
And the storyline has been pretty clunky so far, and
you're really challenging the acting, and I just I guess
maybe we have to fully judge everybody's role in this

(12:03):
in terms of heal babyface and all that as more
and more comes out. But you know, it started pretty dumb,
Jason when and they replayed it again this week where
some are Rays snuck into Dulph's locker room looking around
out paranoid, not noticing the camera aimed at her with
Renee Young just a few feet away. I still can't
get over somebody watched that be filmed and thought, yeah,

(12:23):
let's go with this. Some are Ray making sure nobody's
watching when it's obviously there's a camera shining on her.

Speaker 5 (12:30):
They dumbed the product down because they I really believe
they think their audience is just filled with morons. Yeah,
I honestly believe. I mean, there's so many things over
the years where it's like, why would you do this?
And when you apply that logic to it, it makes
some sense that they think their audience is filled with
morons and that's why they have to foreshadow everything to death.
And I just I think it's just Vince being set

(12:52):
in his ways, and you know, he talks a good
game in creative meetings about the audience is more sophisticated
in this and that. But then we'll see things like
this and it's like, how can you say that and
actually put together television like this?

Speaker 1 (13:05):
Yeah? All right, Well, let's go to the phone lines again.
Six four six seven eight is the number, six four
six seven to one ninety two wight, same price as
same products, we get a cut. Let's go to our
first caller, Matt from North Carolina. If you if you
remember Matt, thanks for calling. Please state uh, please confirm
this as you and let us know what you're talk
what you want to talk about today.

Speaker 6 (13:25):
It is I I'm Matt for North Carolina. How's it
going way good?

Speaker 1 (13:28):
Matt? Thanks going.

Speaker 6 (13:31):
Yeah, I've missed a couple of os, but I caught
up the test a couple of days that kind of
zip through them and watch some stuff. And I think
Seth Rollins is really making a case more than anybody
right now for being uh, you know, one B to
John Seen is one A And I was just curage
that you guys thought about the way Seth Rollins has
developed it. I think I think he has a ton
of baby based potential. Once they pull that trigger, I

(13:52):
think he's just going to be I think I think
they got their one B right there.

Speaker 1 (13:58):
Anytime you're watching w w E Raw or SmackDown or
AW Dynamite in particular, send us an email if you've
got thoughts on the show or a topic you want
us to address or a question for us. Wadekellor Podcast
at pwtorch dot com, Wadkeller Podcast at pewtorch dot com.
If there's anything else going on in pro wrestling that
you want us to address on our main podcast during

(14:19):
our mailbank segments, that same email applies Wadekeller Podcast at
pw torch dot com. We invite that interaction. Let us
know what you think of what we're saying, and let
us know what you want us to talk about and
ask us specific questions. Wadekeller Podcast at PW torch dot com. Jason,
your thoughts on sets progress.

Speaker 5 (14:39):
I feel like we're having deja boo. I think we
talked about this last week, and yeah, I would say
he is one B. I would also say he does
have strong babyface potential, but right now WWE is overexposing him.
And there you heard the boring chance last night, And
the thing that jumped out of me is that's it
was the adult males chanting boring. The same people who

(15:01):
you would think would be the first two cheer Seth
rawlins and they're they're bored with him opening every show
and saying the same thing. I couldn't help it. I
felt the same way when he came out last night.
I'm like, oh man again. You know, it's just every
week it feels like Seth Rowlins is out there cutting
some long promo at the beginning of Raw. They need
to shake things up.

Speaker 1 (15:21):
Yeah, I was when when Seth was talking, I was thinking,
this just feels like he's stretching to fill time. And
then as I had that thought, I heard the boring chat,
you know, and I just I think a lot of
people are on that same clock. They're just thinking he's
filling He's filling time here, and it's the same thing
every week. I would have there's a lot of different
ways that could have gone with it, and I've talked

(15:43):
about it in my video block at Wadekeller dot com
and on the hotline last night. You know, I think
they could have led that show with a divas match
had they promoted it properly. It's so tough when they're
not planning far ahead though, to have any confidence that
they can present a wrestling match and hold that audience.
But I think, yeah, they are to go to focus
back on Matt's question, they are spreading there. They're utilizing

(16:06):
seth Rowlins so much that you know, wrestling twice per
show and long promos and all that. I just I
think there are going to be diminishing returns with him.
He's fantastic, he'd be Yeah, he'd be a great co
top star with John Cena, big baby face potential on
the long run or in the short run even but
especially in the long run. But unfortunately he's part of
an era where there's five hours of first run programming

(16:26):
and you know, three hour, ten minute raw, and they
are leaning on him a lot right now, and I
think I think it is it is spreading him too thin.
I'm mad. Anything else for us?

Speaker 7 (16:37):
Yeah, on just to follow up on that, Yeah, I
noticed the other day that they haven't done a one
on one match with Roman Reigns and Seth Rollins since
Rollins kind of real Roman Range title match of WrestleMania,
and I'm kind of worried that they're holding off on
that match because they wanted they want Rons to hold
the belt full of WrestleMania next and do that one

(16:58):
on one match and try and force Roman Reigns into
that spot once again, and just want to get your
thoughts on that and have a.

Speaker 1 (17:05):
Good show, all right, Thanks Bett? Good here for me, Jason.
Are we added towards Seth against Roman at Mania?

Speaker 5 (17:11):
Well, it's interesting that other than kind of one throwaway
SmackDown match, we haven't seen that match. I thought it
made sense to not go there right after WrestleMania. It
is something you sit on just in case, and the
just in case is just in case you can get
Roman Reigns over enough, and I don't see them on
that course right now. I don't think they've really made
a strong effort, WAD. Maybe that's what they're trying to

(17:33):
do with this Bronze Troman thing is give him him
out to climb and it's going to be he's going
to gain some momentum as we move closer to WrestleMania.
I don't think that's a match that It's not a
match I would go with. I guess if you're going
to include those two, WAD, I as much as I'm
not a big triple threat at WrestleMania guy, in this case,

(17:54):
I'd rather see all three Shield members face off in
a triple thread match for the first time. That match
does more for me than Roman Reigns against Seth Rollins does.

Speaker 1 (18:03):
I'm having a hard time looking at anything involving Roman
Reigns at Wresomania next year and getting all that excited
right now. I don't think WWE's all that excited about him.
I think the lack of promo time Roman Reigns gets
these days is really indicative of how much he has
fallen from grace in terms of the confidence they have
in him to give babyface promo that adds up to
anything and means anything. And I mean I'd rather see

(18:26):
Seth Rowlins as a baby face against the heal Roman
Reigns and vice versa, not just the match, but also
the hype. I'm not sure that they should get there
so quickly that it happens at Russomania thirty two. I
almost think that should be something we're looking at a
year and a half down the line, we'll see it's
It's yeah. Roman Rains is going to be an interesting
person to follow as we move forward here towards the
end of twenty fifteen and beyond. All right, back to

(18:49):
the phone lines, if you want to get in line
on the phone banks, it's six four six seven to
one nine A two eight. We're live at PW torch
livecast dot Com tomorrow Pat McNeil joined by Disco Inferno
talking about the twentieth anniversary of the launch of WCW.
Nitro Disco always an entertaining guest with Pat McNeil, I

(19:10):
had a running joke for a while that I disagreed
with literally everything Disco Infernal said about professional wrestling. Every
opinion he gave. I thought the opposite the last time
he was on the show, that streak was broken. Actually
agree with him on a few things. So check out
Pat McNeil and see if you agree or disagree with Disco.
He'll be on Live tomorrow five thirty Eastern with Pat McNeil.
Yes or by the way, James cauld while hosted the

(19:31):
post Raw show, took your live phone calls talking about
last night's program, giving his opinion and also taking live
phone calls getting opinions of others of the colors who
were listening to the program live. All right, let's go
next to Erico three one four, three one four. Please
state your name in the city or call.

Speaker 7 (19:50):
Him from Hello.

Speaker 8 (19:52):
This is Damian for Saint Louis.

Speaker 1 (19:54):
Hey, Damien, what have you got for us?

Speaker 9 (19:56):
Well?

Speaker 8 (19:56):
I thought last night's Raw was well, it comes to
expected on Monday night with just three hours, it was
just crazy. Probably one of the things that stood out
for me was the fact that they actually went ahead
and got the Divas match between Charlotte and Nicki Bella
to be next Monday night instead of for night a champion,

(20:18):
because you would have thought, hmm, if they would have
hold that off for night a champion. That would have
meant that Nicky Bell would already be the longest reigning
Divas champion by the time that happened. So I'm glad
that they actually went ahead and try to put that
on Monday Night as a way to bring some sort
of doubt plant to see the doubt that Nicky could

(20:39):
indeed be losing the belt to Charlotte. What did you
guys think about that?

Speaker 1 (20:43):
Yeah, talk about that, Jason the height for that.

Speaker 5 (20:46):
Well, it's actually something that we were talking about probably
the last couple of weeks that they needed to do this.
They needed to have her defend the championship. It would
be a wasted opportunity to not have her defend the
championship on the eve of the possibility of breaking the record.
So I'm all for it. Again, It's a little clunky
because I don't think most fans know whether to boo
or cheer Nikki. I would. I just I really feel

(21:10):
like had they been aggressive with her as a heel
and done more with this countdown, really had to just
lay it on thick, it would be something that people
would be looking forward to more than they are. But
I definitely agree it was the right decision to make.
I don't know if this was the plan all along
or they called an audible, but I like that there
is a little bit of drama. Now, will she actually

(21:30):
break the record or Charlotte going to beat her? And
I guess wait, I don't know about you. I leaned
towards Charlotte beating her and then having a rematch at
Night of Champions.

Speaker 1 (21:42):
Yeah, and what I wonder is, well, she beat her,
but right after the clock, you know, right after the
clock expire, so it'll be kind of a bittersweet win.
Nikkio gets to brag that she's still longer throwning champion,
but then her title reign will only be you know,
a minute or two or maybe a few seconds longer
than AJ, so they can at least not talk about
AJ anymore. But they can also do a title change
and then have the rematch at NLC.

Speaker 5 (22:02):
I think it actually expires the next day. I may
be mistaken on that. I think the idea is that
if she gets through raw and then she's guaranteed to
get it. And it's funny ill the whole speculation, and
I've definitely been part of it that they're going to
wait and erase aj Lee's name from the record book
because of this angle. Because of this approach, they've spent

(22:23):
more time talking about aj Lee than they have any
former WWE talent in a long time. They mentioned her
on a weekly basis.

Speaker 1 (22:29):
I know, yeah, But I mean you don't expect her back, Jason,
or do you?

Speaker 5 (22:34):
I don't know. I mean, you'd never say never with
that one. She's stuck around despite punk situation before. But
I think as long as this whole legal dispute with
doctor Herman and Punk and Cabana is going on, I
don't know the internet workings of it, but I just
be surprised knowing that, you know, there's a doctor that
works there that's suing. I think that probably played a
big part in her decision to leave.

Speaker 1 (22:56):
All right, let's go next. Thanks Damian for the call.
By the way, Let's go next to Erico nine to
five four nine. If I four, please state your name
and where you're calling from nine five four? Are you there? Going? Once?
Going twice? All right, let's go next to nine two
nine nineteen nine. Thanks you calling, Please state your name
and where you're following?

Speaker 10 (23:15):
Heyway to go from New York?

Speaker 1 (23:17):
Who from New York. Jonathan, Hey, Jonathan, what have you
got for Jason to me?

Speaker 10 (23:23):
Yeah, well what I wanted to Uh, why is it
possiblyzy sting at the belt on either Sham and so
he's I don't know the rumor, but I heard that
it may be like a reality that Sir rolling the
belt like a punishment for what was his ex so

(23:46):
goring girlfriend is born in the social media.

Speaker 8 (23:49):
With the nasty.

Speaker 2 (23:51):
Anything about that? Also?

Speaker 1 (23:53):
Okay? Good topics, Jason. Yeah, basically, well's sort of one
and the same. Do you think Sting wins a title?
And if he does, is it in part punishing Seth
for his girlfriend and her promotion and defending up the
Nazi symbol on some of her social media. We talked
about that last week. But do you think Seth is
getting heat for that?

Speaker 5 (24:13):
I don't think he should. I still say, I still
say it's you know, I'm sure there are things about
every no matter how long you've been with someone, there's
probably a few things you don't know about them. I mean,
not every person's an open book. And I you know,
if he did, then yeah, okay, but I still I
think it would be foolish. I don't think other than TMZ.

(24:35):
It's not like it's gained a lot of attention from
the media, so it's not like they need to feel
overly embarrassed. I'm sure they're not pleased by it, but
I think they can separate the two, and she has
issued an apology now, for whatever that's worth, So I
don't think Seth should take any heat for it. If
I don't think he's going to lose to Sting, I
think it's more likely that he beats Sting, but he

(24:55):
drops the US title to John Cena. But again, you know,
as I keep saying, mind, it very pleasantly surprising that
we keep getting calls from people questioning whether Sting is
going to win a Night of Champions because I really
thought people would just look at this as it's a fun,
novelty match. But you know, Set's retaining, and that just
doesn't seem to be the way it's going.

Speaker 1 (25:13):
Yeah. Yeah, I could see things going either way. I
just didn't sense from the way Sting's promo is scripted
in the way that this feud is being hyped, that
they're not framing it like Sting needs to win the
WWE Championship at Night of Champions to validate his career
to fulfill what Sting wants. I think they don't want
Sting fans to be totally let down if he doesn't

(25:34):
win the title, So therefore the match is not being
framed as Sting has to win the title or it's
a loss for him, like a complete waste of time.
I think there'll be something else going on with that
match and with that finish where it will seem less
deflating because Sting has done less or very little to
convince us that that championship actually matters much to him.
Did you like the statue crushing at the end.

Speaker 5 (25:56):
Jason, I didn't like anything Sting did last night. He
was in joker mode. We saw that in TNA. I
was never a fan of it there and he was
back there, you know, he's ducking out of the camera
view and trying to be cute, and then he starts
making the joker sounds and laughs, and I'm just like,
oh God, not this version of Sting. I would honestly
rather have the bleach blonde howling version of Sting than

(26:19):
Joker Sting. I'm not a fan at all. The angle
at the end. It just I Okay, Seth's statue was ruined.
It's going to bother Steph or bother Seth. It just
he's kind of the butt of the joke all the
time anyway, and so it didn't make me want to
see Sting get his hands on Seth rawlins. I was

(26:41):
excited about the match when they announced, it was like,
that's cool. They're not just you know, going back to
normal after giving us Taker and Lesner at the SummerSlam.
They're not just going to Okay, now here's everybody else,
all the usual suspects. They're actually trying. They're trying to
give you a special match. And somehow we've gone from
the big statue unveiling that's really Sting angle to now

(27:02):
and I'm less excited about the match. Every time Sting
opens his mouth, they become less excited about this match.

Speaker 1 (27:08):
I thought this week was an improvement on last week, honestly,
because I just don't think you can put Sting out
there and have him fill five eight minutes a time
and hold his train of thought and convince us of anything.
So I'm I'm just not I found myself saying last
night was a better usage of Sting because it's pre recorded,
it's short, snippets. I don't entirely disagree with you, but
part of it is just I'm not sure if Steve

(27:29):
Borden even has a lot of confidence in which version
of Sting to portray. And I don't know that WWE
has a real idea of who Sting is because Sting
has been so many things.

Speaker 5 (27:39):
He was there's a problem.

Speaker 1 (27:41):
Yeah, he has been most successful when he was part
of a really hot product, saying nothing and doing almost
nothing and just looking like Sting. The best thing Sting
as going for him is that, look, he's got a
real he's got a facial bone structure and good height,
good size, kind of that that charisma that starts to
actually go away the more that he does. And I

(28:02):
think last night was an improvement of the week before
in terms of how to utilize him. But is an
even better way, Jason to have him not talking and
just holding a baseball bat or wearing a black robe
and the rafters like, like, do you go back to
that glory period of Sting when Nitro was on top
of the ratings and he was that mysteriously babyfaced. Because

(28:23):
the track record with Sting is is the more he talks,
the more he wrestles. The more he does, the more
that mystique of what he looks like when he's just
standing there, it goes away.

Speaker 5 (28:33):
Well, you know, they were on that path going into
WrestleMania of having him be silent Sting, and it was working.
The problem is their own creative put them in a
position where I think they felt like they had to
have him talk. Everything Sting was doing fine, It just
everything around him was kind of a mess, And so
then they had him talk and he did a good job.

(28:55):
You know, I was pleasantly surprised with the mic where
he did. Knowing into Mania, it didn't really kill the mystique.
But now that we're back, we're getting the second nose
of Sting. Yeah, I wish he was back to being silent.

Speaker 1 (29:06):
All right, If you're just joining us, this is the
PW Torch Live cast, Tuesday, September eighth, twenty fifteen. The
show is on five days a week live Monday through Friday,
plus Sundays after major pay per views. I am joined
by Jason Powell of Pro Wrestling dot Net. Jason tell
listeners about your website and also your membership option.

Speaker 5 (29:23):
Yeah, but money going on on the site today will
leave the dot out of this one at Pro Wrestling.

Speaker 1 (29:28):
Net, Jason, the pace of that promo you just cut
is a complete opposite of Seth Rollins. You zip through
that set Land Speed Records, got a lot in and
a short amount of time. Boom. I didn't have a
chance to think boring, boring. You got right there. It
is the opposite of Seth Rollins on roll last night.
Good work, good work, good example set for raw.

Speaker 5 (29:50):
All right, let's say, of course, Seth, I don't blame him, Yeah,
I mean he's after that style has worked for him.
They've just overexposed him exactly.

Speaker 1 (29:57):
No, No, I'm totally with you.

Speaker 11 (30:03):
In twenty twelve, NXT transitioned into the developmental system and
ultimately the brand you see today. On the Torch VIP
podcast NXT Eight Years Back, we'll be taking a weekly
look at this page in NXT's early history.

Speaker 12 (30:18):
Join Kelly Wells and me Tom Stout from PWT Talks
NXT every Saturday as we go eight years back to
the day to track NXT's rising talents and why they
did or didn't work out, exclusively for PW Torch VIP members.

Speaker 1 (30:34):
All right, let's go to Eric Code four seven eight.
Next right back to the phone lines four seven eight.
Please state your name in the city you're calling from.

Speaker 9 (30:42):
Derail, from Georgia, Adil.

Speaker 1 (30:43):
What have you got for us?

Speaker 9 (30:44):
Okay, I have two questions. My first question like a
two part question. I was listening to what you guys
are saying about him treading seth Rowlands out there to
do a promo in the best Boring Boring.

Speaker 1 (30:57):
We haven't talked about that, how.

Speaker 9 (31:02):
I just wanted to and I asked, do you think
that they're missed? This should show the people in the
back that they're missing that backing up in third Babyface
or somebody that they can tread or somebody who's over
that they can tread out there from time to time.
So you want overexposed health to Rollinson and sort of
that point. And the second part to the question is

(31:23):
I listened to you way yesterday or today on the
Stone Cold podcast and you were saying the next Babyface
that maybe could take over, and you you said something
by being better. I just wanted you to ask, do
you think that's somebody who they maybe think about bringing
up maybe Rod Rumble or or sometimes that's January after

(31:45):
the takeover in December and stuff that they can bring
him over, bring him up and properly hotsot him so
since you don't have that stinch on him from like
the Kevin Dunns and all of that. And the second
question is where do they do they think it's better
than let seth Rowlands just keep it tied us to wraptlemanny.

(32:08):
I feel like he deserves it. He's the best out
of the younger crowd that nobody else seems to stick.
Throw them to the wall. They don't stick, and how
do they get us there? And that's much important.

Speaker 1 (32:23):
Yeah, dryl, I wish I knew when Finn Valor was
coming up. I think when you look at the depth
chart right now. Jason on raw I wrote an editorial
at Wadekeller dot com yesterday about the really shallow week
house show lineups they had this weekend. No Randy Orton,
no Triple Ahri Stephanie or Sting or brock Lesondor or
Paul Hayman, it was or Undertaker obviously, it was a
really just stripped down lineup one and maybe two matches

(32:46):
that had any kind of sense of marketability and importance.
And then you have guys like Jack Sweger and other
I won't call them unknowns, but just guys who aren't
worthy of being on raw who you're paying fifty hundred
bucks a ticket for to watch Russ, to watch Russ
in person. They need better talent that's over that hasn't
been damaged. I just when it comes to Finn Balor, though,

(33:06):
don't bring him up until vinsick Man and Kevin done
two are ready for him and believe in him and
have a great game plan for him. I don't know
when that is. But if you bring him up and
you just push him hard for a month or two
or three and then cool him off like they have
Kevin Owens, I don't think that's I think you're better
off keeping him in developmental for longer. But really it's

(33:29):
it's just a matter of when Vince has a plan
and believes in him and goes with him. I guess
it could be before us Minia thirty two. I don't
think it has to be. He might be one of
those guys that are waiting for after Usselmania. Are you
hearing anything on that, Jason, And what is your thoughts
on the pacing of Finn Balor's debut?

Speaker 5 (33:45):
Nothing? Nothing, I've heard other than what he said publicly,
which is that he's very happy being an NXT, and
you know, it feels like he hasn't accomplished everything he
wants to there, and I'm with you one percent. Don't
bring him up unless there's a plan and not just
a three month deal. It's it's so frustrating seeing what's
happened with Kevin Owens. And yeah, and it looks like

(34:06):
he's going to move into a program with Rye back
over the IC title. But he's not the only one.
The list goes on of people that they bring up
with a real short term idea and then they just
get lost in the shuffle, and that can't happen with him.
He's special, not that the Owens and Neville and some
of these other guys weren't special too, but there's only
you can't keep making that same mistake. And I'm fine

(34:27):
with him being there until they actually come up with
something that makes him special. And I almost wonder, I mean,
right now, Wade, I feel like he could be in
the same slot that Sting is and doing a very
effective job of saying little and then that you could
do the demon thing and you know, maybe someday he
becomes kind of some some version like WWE's revamp version,

(34:48):
or like kind of a cross between a Jeff Hardy
and a Sting for them, and I think that once
he gets the call up, if they do it right,
I think it can do. They can do really good business.
And as far as Rollins goes, I'm all for him
holding the title until WrestleMania thirty two. If they don't
have something else already in mind. I'd hate to see
them go, well, they're chanting, boring, we better hit the

(35:09):
panic button. And that's why I'm against him dropping the
title to Sting even a short term thing. I want
to see him being a long running champion going into
WrestleMania rather than a guy who had a.

Speaker 1 (35:18):
Hiccup Jason Up. As far as a Mister Partner goes
for Rains and Ambrose, do you have a pretty good
idea who's going to be? Could it still end up
being Randy Orton with all the focus on him or
do you think they were kind of writing him out
of it with a beatdown? You could interpret that both ways.

Speaker 5 (35:34):
I looked at it as Randy Orton, you know, It's
just why would that be enough? For Randy. You know,
we've seen Ambrose and Rains take worse beatdowns from those guys,
and they're just back on TV than on the next show. Right,
what Orton took wasn't you know? It just wasn't that bad.
It's not Orton's not like Orton's character. Do you just go, oh,
I got beat up, so I'm gonna put my tail

(35:54):
between my legs. So I assume that was the setup.
Maybe they haven't a way, you know, give us the
fifty brilliant Seamous and Randy Orton match instead, and or
someone else in that role. I don't know, but I
mentioned last week. The guy I would like to see
there is probably very much a long shot, but I'd
put some Oa Joe there.

Speaker 1 (36:11):
Yeah, moo Johan. I was even thinking to spin Balor
a long shot. Could they just shoot him to the
top or.

Speaker 5 (36:18):
To me, it's it's an interesting slot to be in.
I'd rather see him come in as kind of his
own man Joe. I just think there's a lot you
can do with he and Rains and Ambrose especially, you know,
when it's time to just split. I think that would
there's whether he's heel or babyface. I think there's just
so much you can so much potential with those three
guys alone and then everyone else on the roster for

(36:38):
Joe to work with.

Speaker 1 (36:39):
I'm with you, I agree, all right. Next Eric code
seven seven eight, Please state your name and where you're
calling for.

Speaker 2 (36:47):
Well, if I'm going this is Mike home book.

Speaker 1 (36:51):
Hey Mike, what have you got for us?

Speaker 2 (36:53):
I know a couple of things just to add on
which I was saying, Yeah, I like that guy, nam
me too, go you know, Rains and Ambushman. I don't
think it's going to happen. As part of the weekend
they on a few of the West Side they actually
had a you know, a poster uh and Bros. Rains

(37:15):
and the other kid uh Baron Colevin. Well, we don't
know if that's going to happen. Also, I wanted to
get you, I got you guys. Thoughts on you know,
the whole rot back. Kevin Olden would have you know
it would it be existing that owners you know states
the icy title from them? Yeah, right now, because you

(37:36):
kind of tread and water.

Speaker 1 (37:37):
No, I'm with you. I was. I was kind of
glad to see Kevin Owens actually get something on Raw. Jason,
you know, coming in eating the apple. Uh, taunting Rye
back a little bit, Uh, setting up perhaps a ride
back Kevin Owens feud. I mean, it's about where I
expect Kevin Owens to land right now. It's a better
spot than lower on the card to state the obvious. Uh,
what do you think about that? And do you put

(37:58):
any credence in Aaron Corbin?

Speaker 5 (38:01):
Starting with Corbin? Okay, they brought in braun Strowman to
be the heavy there. I guess I could see him
kind of cast in a similar role. I don't think
it's anything that sticks. I think it's very premature. I know,
Triple Ah just talked about how he's got all the
tools and all of that and he just needs to
put it together. But we saw him have a passable

(38:22):
match with Samoa, Joe and Brooklyn, but I haven't really
seen him put it all together yet. He'd be protected
by the shield, but when it's time to hang on
his own, he just hasn't shown that he can do
that yet. So I wouldn't do that if I were them.
And then what was the other question?

Speaker 1 (38:37):
Okay, so we have Baron Corbin and oh shoot, I
just drew a blank. Mike remind me of the second
Oh we were talking about Kevin Owens too.

Speaker 5 (38:47):
Oh yeah, Kevin.

Speaker 9 (38:48):
Oh.

Speaker 5 (38:48):
I think winning the Icy title is the right move
for him. Right back is doing okay with it. I
mean he's not. There's really no attention right now on
rye Back in the eye. It's just kind of that
other title. It's just kind of hanging out there, and
so he's not doing He's doing what they're asking him too.
He's having better matches and I think people would would
have expected from Ryeback if like the last one was

(39:10):
show was pretty solid, but they really it doesn't feel
like it's going anywhere. It's just kind of like it
feels like they're throwing him a bone by giving him
the IC title. And I'd rather see Owens feel like
he has some momentum, feel like he's fighting for something
and defending something, and I think he needs that, He
needs my time. So i'd rather see him end up

(39:32):
with that championship. I don't know if that's where they're
going away, but that's what i'd like to see.

Speaker 1 (39:36):
I would too. I think Kevin Owens with the Icy
title and maybe a long rain and just become identified
with that belt is a good thing with Ryback as
a babyface IC champ. If Steth Rollins is going to
be a heel champion for a while longer. I could
also see WWE keeping the belt on rye Back too.
I don't know that that's a bad thing. I'm not
voting against that in isolation, but I do like the

(39:58):
idea of Kevin Owens ele the Icy title or being
elevated by it, depending on your perspective, probably a little
bit more than Ryeback continuing with the title, although I
think both are decent options. I just think they need
to do a better job promoting the Icy title that's
a big deal, and get out of this Miz Big
Show thing with Rybeck, which it seems like they are
pivoting out of. I don't buy Baron Corbin being brought

(40:18):
up to be a babyface teaming with Rains and Ambrose
as a mister partner. Why would you have a mister
partner that almost nobody knows, you know? I mean, it's
just that that's not the payoff to the angle. And
I am with you on the Orton thing too. I
just don't think the beatdown was severe enough to be
to explain why Orton would be then unavailable to be
their partner, so it seemed like that almost created more motivation.

(40:38):
But the announcers did sort of say, you know, will
that beatdown of Orton discourage others from you know, volunteering
to be on the team with Rains and Ambrose. I
thought there was something like that said. So that made
me think, well, you know, maybe they still are looking
at something else and maybe Smowe Joe's an option. All right,
let's go next to six one six six one six

(40:59):
polase state your name where you're calling from.

Speaker 5 (41:01):
This is Eric program marapis hown you guys doing doing good?

Speaker 1 (41:03):
Eric, Thanks for Colin. What do you got for Jason?

Speaker 13 (41:06):
I think I asked a question last week and I
didn't I didn't think.

Speaker 3 (41:09):
You answered it about them?

Speaker 5 (41:10):
What do you see the Dudleys?

Speaker 9 (41:11):
Do you see them morning.

Speaker 5 (41:12):
Or do you see them chasing until maybe tables layers
and shares it?

Speaker 13 (41:16):
How long?

Speaker 5 (41:17):
How long is their contract up?

Speaker 9 (41:18):
And then you can ask then I got one more question, all.

Speaker 1 (41:21):
Right, Jason, So let's go ahead and ignore Eric's question
another for another week and talk about TNA for a minute. No,
I'm kidding, go ahead on Dudley's what do you think
as a pace of their push and a title win.

Speaker 5 (41:30):
Perhaps I hadn't thought about TC and tell Eric mentioned it,
but that does seem logically if you're going to do
a switch there. And I believe they're back full time.
I don't think this is just kind of a three
month deal or anything like that, like a like Rob
Man Damn used to get It. Sounds like they're back
and they're regulars, and I think that's a good thing.
But I do worry that you may need to do

(41:52):
a double turn because I wait, I don't think New
Day has any interest in getting heat. They're being pest heels,
but they're just too clever about it. They're just entertaining.

Speaker 1 (42:01):
That's the thing. I mean. It's it's this weird full
circle thing where at first they're portrayed as Babyface as
fans rejected them because they were too pure, they go
heal and then suddenly they're not, you know, talking about positivity.
Well they are sort of obnoxiously and ironically now, but yeah,
they're just I mean, the trombone as as Biggie reverse
whip Kofie into the corner and the crowd pop for that.
It's just it's it's a gimmick meant to entertain, not

(42:23):
illicit cheers or boosts at this point, and I think
that's a problem. I think you want to be entertaining,
but I think first and foremost, you want your character
defined in a way where people are either rooting for
you or against you, not just how do we how
do we entertain people? And this does have that gimmick
where in a way, they're kind of a riot to
watch you. When they come on, you're kind of, you know,

(42:45):
I think you're not bored, You're kind of wondering what
are they going to do next? But at the same time,
I don't think you have a definitive emotion other than
kind of laughter. And yeah, the Dudley's as a legend
babyface tag team, I think has some legs to it.
I don't know at their aid, with their legacy that
it makes sense for them to go heal. But you
wonder if New if the New Age all was, if

(43:06):
New Day I'm back in that era, if the New
Day fight the Dudley's, you do wonder if there's a
possibility the crowd would actually turn on the Dudley's And
how Bubba Ray and Devon would would handle that if
that started happening on TV or a house shows.

Speaker 5 (43:20):
Well, and we know there's such good heels, you know,
And so if I think I'm giving WWE too much
credit here, but if the idea is let New Day
continue to do their thing and the Dudleys can get
the returning legends reaction for a couple of months and
then we do the switch, Okay, But I don't think
that's it. I just think they're making it up as
they go along with New Day. They're entertained by it.

(43:40):
People are entertained by it. And that worked when there
was just a bunch of other tag teams that nobody
really cared about. It was fun. It breathed new life
into it. But now they need to pick a direction
they really Now that you have a team like the
Dudley's there, don't squander this opportunity. You actually have a
chance to have a strong heel versus baby face viewed
pick aside. I don't even care which, but ideally I'm

(44:01):
with you. I think the Dudley should be baby faces here.
But Newday just needs to kind of refine their act
a little bit so they actually get heat rather than laughs.

Speaker 1 (44:08):
I think if they turn their wit and cleverness on
heels who are bad sports about it, that can work,
and then yes, sell some merchandise and people go to
house shows to see their act in person, and it
can work. But right now, as heels, when they're clever
and funny and a riot and it's aimed at babyfaces,
I don't want to be the baby face opposite of

(44:29):
them right now.

Speaker 5 (44:30):
And by the way, nice job, ww the Dudley's come
back and one of their second televised or one of
their early televised matches, you make El Tourito the focus
of the match. Great job.

Speaker 1 (44:39):
That's a good point. I don't even know what happened there.
I don't get it. What, why was he Why was
Premo upset at him?

Speaker 5 (44:47):
I don't know. Yeah, I don't even know who's Premo
and Epico anymore. They're just lowest matadoris to me. Yeah,
I don't know. It didn't make any sense. I have
this bad fear that we're going to see like Elchurito
revealed as like long lost Dudley or something. He's going
to be added to bad act. Yeah, it's I guess.
I would say for the most part, whatever gets those

(45:09):
guys out of the Lost manadorious gimmick. But I don't
know that that's happening.

Speaker 1 (45:13):
I do see Bubba Ray Devon and you know, Little
Bold Dudley or whatever they end up calling him taking
on all three members a new day around the Horn.
I could see that happening.

Speaker 5 (45:25):
Oh boy, yeah, I wonder if that's what your thinking.

Speaker 1 (45:27):
Yeah, thanks for downloading today's show. Take it to the
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(45:50):
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slash go viip all right up next nine try again.

(46:13):
Please state your name in the city you're calling from.

Speaker 9 (46:15):
My name is Bruce. I'm from Hollywood, Florida.

Speaker 14 (46:19):
Last night with the Russef and Summer Ray segment, yeah,
you see in your guys opinion on a much more
RUSSEV turning into like a comedic character instead of this
serious character within that losin that segment is one that
asks you, guys your opinion, and that'll be off.

Speaker 1 (46:39):
To say, thank you, guys, thanks Jason. The RUSSEF character,
I mean, Bruce brings up a good topic. Where are
they going with him on this? What is the endgame
with what they're doing with RUSV right now and Summer Ray.

Speaker 5 (46:53):
I don't think they have endgames for anything going on
right now. And that's the scary part about WWE creatively.
I mean, this is something we've talked about many times.
It's not just he's flipping the switch into comedy. He's
been going in this direction for quite some time. And
I want to because defenders of it. I hear from
people when I complain about that, that they believe he's

(47:13):
just gonna be able to flip the switch and get
right back into that mode. And I hope they're right,
but I have my doubts. I just think there as
entertaining as he is, it's going to be difficult for
him to go back to being just to killer Ruseph
where you take him seriously, I'm guessing the long term plan.
If there is one way, it would be to put
him in Lana back together again and somehow that gets

(47:35):
Russef out of this love struck mode and into just
being the dominant heel again. But it's I think it's
we're in for an awkward transition when that time comes.

Speaker 1 (47:44):
There's some conspiracy theories floating out there that the situation
with Lana isn't just a broken wrist and off the road,
and I've heard different theories, and I do wonder why
does a broken wrist prohibit her from participating in the storyline.

Speaker 5 (47:58):
I don't think it does. I mean I didn't read
it that way. Just what they put out there, it
seemed like she is, you know, she'll be unable to
wrestle for four months. She wasn't wrestling anyway. Yeah, and
but she may need surgery. So I don't think they've
like said, they determined officially whether she's going to have
the surgery or not. And so until she does, or

(48:19):
they just just you know, deem her able to go
out there with a brace or you know, who knows
what it would be. I'm guessing she just got maybe
she she might even be back next week, wait for
all we know.

Speaker 1 (48:29):
Okay, yeah, well then we'll keep an eye on that because, yeah,
if she just disappears from the storyline and they not
you know, Russe said, oh the they say that she's
at home with a broken rist. No, she's at home
with a broken heart. You know, they kind of acknowledge
that a little bit. But yeah, I think people are
going to expect her to be part of the storyline,
not just drop out and somehow have it be. Well,
Summer Ray has a thing for Ziggler, but she regrets

(48:51):
it because now she loves Rusev more and Rusev is
forgiving and Ziggler is a wise ass. And but yeah,
what do you what do you think of Jason about
Zigler's character right now and how he is fitting into
the storyline in the way that he's try you know,
is he building his character or hurting his character? Revealing more?
Is he revealing He deserves more of a push for
his quick wit and his ability to carry this storyline

(49:13):
his end of the storyline, or is he exposing himself
in the negative in the sense that you know, he's
just not a main event guy.

Speaker 5 (49:21):
He's not a main event guy. Not it's a babyface,
you know, maybe is a heel some day, but it
seems like that ship is sailed to I just don't
I think he has main event entering talent, and I
think the ship sailed though. I don't think Vince McMahon
has that sees him that way. I don't know if
it's a confidence thinger if he just doesn't see it,
But I don't think it's going to happen. I don't.

(49:42):
I mean, he's probably helping himself when it comes to
Vince though, by taking part in this wacky sports entertainment
thing that you know, this seems like it's it's Vince
McMahon's cup of tea, and nobody's laughing harder at this,
I would guess, and Vince McMahon is, so maybe that
scores him from points way, but I don't know that
it suddenly makes Vince go already pulled that off, and
now we can use him in main events.

Speaker 1 (50:02):
I see his believing no, no, I'm with you. I
I think he's showing aspects of himself in the storyline.
Uh that that he probably showed behind the scenes that
led to ww B losing some confidence in him along
the way. I just I think there's I mean, I
guess the bright side of this, Jason as we don't
have to see the uh the stonewashed gene outfit, the

(50:23):
stonewashed jeans that that Lana was wearing, that Dolph was
endorsing as some retro eighties you know rock band thing.
I mean, Ziggler's just a weird.

Speaker 5 (50:32):
We don't have to see Lana as bilbot Sky.

Speaker 1 (50:35):
Yeah, that's that's right. I don't understand Doll. I mean,
Dolf just is a quirky guy, and I mean idolizing
Billy Gunn. Of all people, You've got a whole whole
history of wrestling to choose from, and you choose him
and that badass character as the one as kind of
your role model. And I mean a guy who tried
to get over as a singles guy and and never did.

(50:55):
I think Billy showed more on tough enough personality wise
than he did in his entire career. He's one of
those guys who winns himself and not trying to play
a character actually works out better. Some of it might
have just been maturing with age too, and just kind
of figuring out who he is. But I don't know.

Speaker 5 (51:10):
Dolf.

Speaker 1 (51:11):
I was big on him a couple of years ago,
and he has lost me almost at the same rate
that you know, MS has redeemed himself, not as a
top top guy, but MS was awful last year, and
there's a lot that Miss has done this year that
I've liked. So yeah, it's just yeah, go with Chess.

Speaker 5 (51:27):
Well, I'm gonna say with Doll, I mean, I politically
man learn how to play the game. Connor already has
she listed Triple H's her favorite superstar. I think he
is the favorite superstar of every wrestler in NXT. He's
the creator of all things Women's Division. He's the creator
well along with Stephanie. Of course, even though she had
no real hand in this, they give her credit. Boy,

(51:48):
those at the NXT level, they really know how to
say the right thing, and maybe Dolf could actually take,
you know, learn a lesson from them.

Speaker 1 (51:55):
Yeah, good point. All right, back to the phone lines.
Let's go to nine to five one and then on
deck is uh three one oh nine five one. Thanks Rollding.
Please state your name and where you're calling from.

Speaker 13 (52:07):
Yeah, and Jason, Hey, thanks for taking my call and
thanks for getting me in promptly. I must have sent
you that express information within like a minute ago. Guys, Yeah,
no problem, I appreciate it.

Speaker 5 (52:21):
Now.

Speaker 13 (52:22):
The last on SmackDown they had you know, New Days.
They've been fairly prominent on the SmackDown Show lately, them
of the players. I know you talked about it on
your hot line was really sena entering, but they've been
really featured prominently in the main events the in the
last couple of weeks, and I was wondering if you
think that's something ww you know, with the Edgen Christian
podcast with Austin last night, they're trying to put an

(52:42):
emphasis on more tag team wrestling gain or do you
think it's just because New Day is such a hot
act they're just kind of leaning on for the time being.

Speaker 1 (52:50):
Yeah, Jason, are we Jason Power, are we part of
a revival here of tag teams? And was it all
in coordination? Okay, New Day's getting over primetime players team
seen it the main event and then we bring back
the Dudley Boys and we have Austin interview edgen Christian.
Certainly there's a lot going on that if you love
taking wrestling, you could put the pieces together and say, hey,

(53:10):
I think there's a revival. But is it more coincidence.

Speaker 5 (53:13):
I think a lot of it's coincidence, and I do
think there's somewhat of an emphasis on it right now.
I think that's part of the reason the Dudleys came in.
But I also believe they were coming in. This was
planned before New Day started clicking, because they were doing
their Twitter back and forth with Rowan and Harper when
they were doing the three D as a finisher, and
I mean all science pointed to that being a work

(53:34):
and so I then Rowan got hurt and that probably
derailed things. So I think that Dudley's coming in kind
of pre dates New Day really starting to click. But
if nothing else, yeah, I think with those teams, I
think they look at the Wyatt family as a potential
tag team, even Ambrose and Rains right now, like if
the Dudleys were to go heal, they could work with

(53:56):
those guys, and I think do some good business too.
But it's there's still a shortage there. It does seem
like there's a little more emphasis in NXT as well.
Now they have more teams or doing the Dusty Roads
Tag Team Tournament, and a lot of the newer teams
don't look like they were just thrown together for that
tournament either. So yeah, hopefully this is a sign that

(54:16):
things are you know, there's going to be a little
more focused given to tag team wrestling.

Speaker 1 (54:20):
I hope so too. I see no negative in having
a strong tag team division and having it be more
than you know, one or two strong teams and three
or four week teams and where you know they're just
treated as jobbers as singles guys too. I think that's
one of the easiest ways for WWE to add some
depth to both house shows and Ron SmackDown is create

(54:41):
a sense that it's a hot tag team era and
it's not like they've been trying and failing. They just
haven't been trying all that hard. So I think if
they try, they can put some pieces together that maybe
won't become single stars, but as tag team wrestlers could
actually draw some money. That might actually be where Ziggler lands.
If you can find a partner that he's got some
chemistry with, maybe somebody who not just like him, but
very very different than him. Maybe he ends up becoming

(55:05):
a good taking wrestler and more valuable than just kind
of a mid card singles guy. You can make that
case for a number of wrestlers, Damian Sandou or King
Baron and on and on. I did enjoy the uh
that you know fanals holding up at Damian Sando signed
during the Randy Orton Seamus match. You know we want Sandow.
I'm just like they have people on the sidelines they're
not utilizing, and yet we keep getting Orton against Seamus Jason.

(55:29):
I bet Seamus and Randy Orton when they saw the script,
when they saw the TV sheet had to think, is
it April first? You can't be serious. We're wrestling again.

Speaker 5 (55:37):
I know, I don't know what it has to be
a rib at this point. I mean, Vince that hasked
to be one of those things that Vince is sitting
backstage chuckling over. There's just no way that they can
think this is compelling, that the people are into this.
And it worked in Saint Louis because it was Randy's
hometown and they got a good reaction for that day
perview match and then they go back with it the

(55:58):
next pay per view and not so much. And then
last night again the crowd you can tell, I mean
that they live. Crowd is always going to react to
Randy Orton's high spots and they like to count to ten.
You take those out, and anytime Seamus is on offense
or any early organ offense, and the crowd is just
sitting there. Board.

Speaker 1 (56:15):
Yeah, let me go back to VPM or Mike, go ahead, Mike,
what else do ye.

Speaker 8 (56:18):
Have for us?

Speaker 4 (56:20):
Yeah?

Speaker 13 (56:20):
Last team, guys, And I was actually talking about this
with my brother and I'm interested injured guys. Just take
on it. And now it's I'm gonna use evn Marie
as an example, so hold on. But prospects and wrestling,
they seem to differ so much, the reactions of fans
versus prospect in the professional sports league that I follow
away and I've went back and forth with here a

(56:41):
few times, and I see you often, you know, reporting
the Timberwolves on Twitter, and it seems like generally, you know,
in professional sports that prospects will get a few years,
Like we understand at Wiggans hask to play two or
three years before you reached the sis potential. Even Marie
may not be the best example given all the opportunities
he's been given. What do you think is that wrestling

(57:01):
fans are so you know, maybe because the next season
bringing in all the you know, indies super stars, but
what makes you.

Speaker 2 (57:10):
More mixed thing? Why do you.

Speaker 13 (57:12):
Think that wrestling fans in general are so reluctant to
give prospects really a chance and let them grow into
poop on television, like get their rests. It seems like
they're you know, never willing to do that. In the
negat there's so much negativity towards the people in n
XT like Baron Corbin, who are really just trying to
learn and who could be an asset going forward, like
and Andrew Wiggans.

Speaker 1 (57:33):
And so, Mike, let me ask you, what what is
your solution? What do you think I'm either a green
or just screen just trying to understand your point of
view here? What do you think fans and WWE collectively
should do differently than what they currently are?

Speaker 13 (57:46):
Well, this is why I subscribe to VIP. I was
hoping you guys would have a solution. I would just
like to see I don't know, I mean, honestly, I
I'm one that subscribes to the glass is glass is
more half full than half empty, you know, percent percession
of things. And I would just like to see like
a Baron Corbyn, like a even marine again not necessarily
as an example, but but but the rustlers have ben

(58:09):
Elk be given more of an opportunity to not just
be you know, buried by fans before they really get
their feet under them. I mean, we've seen many, like
I said, in professional sports, guys take their legs and
eventually turn something fantastic, and I don't and I wonder
if they'd he you know, toowers on these people before
they really have a chance to turn into something fantastic.

Speaker 1 (58:29):
Gotcha, Jason, do you think that's a problem as Mike
perceives it, or is he just hanging out in the
wrong the wrong areas or a bunch of negative people,
or is there not enough opportunity or or or rope
being given to some of the developmental guys and gals.

Speaker 5 (58:42):
I think you have to take it on a case
by case basis, because when it comes to Baron KORbin,
I definitely have felt that people were judging him by
the same standard as that All Star class that was there,
the Nevils and vinval Or and just the list goes
on Sammy's ay, and it wasn't fair, you know, he
was very much developmental where they were established independent wrestlers

(59:05):
for many years who had had every opportunity to hone
their craft, and he's just a former NFL guy coming
in and learning. But they were giving him a push,
and so the crowd was rejecting it. Eva Marie, I
don't know why they don't just give her a non
wrestling role. I don't get it. She just there's some
people that just don't have it athletically, and I haven't

(59:26):
seen any indication that she's ever going to be someone
who does. But there's obviously some appeal there, whether it's
looks or just some some sort of charisma that I
don't really see. I mean, she works on Total Divas,
but if they want her to be part of the
regular television show, it's okay that she can't wrestle. Lana
doesn't wrestle, and she does good things for them, and

(59:46):
to hook her up as a valet with somebody, I
think there's things they can do, But yeah, I do
you know, in general, I think fans especially at the
NXT level with it just being kind of that younger,
savvy crowd, and they're going to be tougher people that
they see show down their throats. And it's not just them.
I mean, you can go back to Rocky Maivia being
shoved down the throats of fans and we also how

(01:00:08):
that went, and some of it's on WWE wait, I
think for just being too aggressive in pushing some of
these guys before they're really ready.

Speaker 1 (01:00:15):
Yeah, I'm with you on a case by case and
I think that, you know, a guy like Baron Corbyn
should have time. I think part of the issue with
Baron is while he was supposed to be developing, they
were giving him a monster push in the NXT world,
having all these short matches, and so then he gets
a long match against Samoa Joe and you know, people like, well,
I hope they don't have Baron leapfrog Samoa Joe and
he didn't, and so you know, Baron's in developmental and

(01:00:38):
should stay there for a while and get better, and
they take their time with him, and but yeah, I
just I'm with you. It's kind of a case by
case thing. Some guys are going to be ready from
the indie scene after a little bit of time, just
kind of waiting for the right time to come in,
like we talked about earlier with Finn balor other guys
you know, like Kevin Owens get shot in the bin
roster pretty quickly. Other guys will probably toil for a

(01:00:59):
while because they're not an opening or there's something about
them that management just doesn't like. And I do think
it's going to be a case by case thing. NXT
needs to start developing, you know, talent that ends up
getting over on the main roster, and they need to
have a track record of that, and I think everybody's
kind of waiting to see that happen. I think the
pieces are in place to develop talent, but I don't

(01:01:21):
know if ultimately go wrestling for years on the indie
scene and becoming the cream of the crop out of
one hundreds of people in the indie scene might be
a better way to discover stars than being WWB Developmental's
top draft pick and who you know, you might have
being a bust and you might end up being in
a system where you don't develop very well. And we're
still pretty young in this process as far as NXT now,

(01:01:43):
being a known brand where you kind of become a
star even before you're fully developed, and I think those
expectations are higher. All right. If you are not a
VIP member, go to PW Torch dot com slash go
vip to find out details. Torch dot com slash go VIP.

Speaker 4 (01:02:03):
Longing for some nostalgia or maybe you want to learn
some wrestling history, don't miss the Nineties Past cast every
Friday on the PW Torch Daily Cast Feed. Alex and
Patrick will transport you thirty years into the past by
taking you through the Torch issue from that very week.
Follow news from the WWF and WCW and all the

(01:02:23):
happenings from across the wrestling industry in real time as
The Torch reported it thirty years ago. That's the Nineties
Pass cast every Friday on the PW Torch Daily Cast Feed.

Speaker 1 (01:02:43):
All right, back to the full lines we go, Eric
code three to oh one is up? Next three to
oh one. Please state your name of the city you're
calling from.

Speaker 15 (01:02:51):
This is Junior from Washington, DC. Wait.

Speaker 1 (01:02:53):
Wait, good to hear from you. What is your question
for us today?

Speaker 15 (01:02:58):
Well, I guess I guess my question to you is
is the Divas Revolution? Is it not to be televised
on Raw? Because that match last night was the essence,
you know what?

Speaker 16 (01:03:13):
It was the issues.

Speaker 15 (01:03:14):
It was horrible.

Speaker 16 (01:03:15):
Man.

Speaker 15 (01:03:15):
They did nothing but give knees, kicks and punches in
one slam. How do you go from that match in
Brooklyn to I'm talking about on NXT to what they've
given us the last two to three weeks on Raw
and have the nerve to try to shove down our
throats to this a revolution.

Speaker 5 (01:03:33):
It's not.

Speaker 15 (01:03:34):
It's the same crap we've been getting from that division.
And I don't blame and this is the sad part.
I don't blame the women. I really don't blame them. Now,
I can look at it a certain way because Nikki
and Brie and which come to Alicia, they've been in
that old system, so I understand they used to wrestling

(01:03:55):
this style that they have the wrestling, but it didn't
even look good last night, Wavee. Jason, it didn't look
good at all. I just wanted to know your guys
take on and then I had one more question after that,
but I wanted to hear what you had to say
about that match in particular.

Speaker 1 (01:04:05):
First, Jason, he was down as Junior is on the
opening match of Sasha and Page. No.

Speaker 5 (01:04:11):
I mean, we've certainly seen better from the women, especially
on the NXT level, but I didn't hate the match
or anything. I had to chuckle at all the hype
that there's finally you know, there's no time limit. It's
like you never have timelines. I get what they were
doing with the whole money in the bank thing the
week before, but it did make me laugh. But I
know I wasn't as down on it. How about you win?

Speaker 1 (01:04:31):
Yeah, I know I wasn't this down on the match,
but I have to say in the macro, yeah, the
Davis Revolution has been largely lip service. It's not a
revolution to bring three women up from developmental at once
and then have three threesomes get new names. The revolution
goes as far as at least there are Usually there's
usually more time given to the matches on Raw, and

(01:04:52):
usually two matches among the women, and some extra promo time.
That said, Jason, I don't want to be too critical
because I didn't think it was awful, but I'm blown
away by like Charlotte's promo lately, you know, like I
don't think she's found her stride behind the microphone kind
of you know, dipping her kind of waiting in the
Rick Flair water, but not all the way. You know,
why is she not Charlotte Flair? And she's kind of hinting, well,

(01:05:14):
you know, I like to party, and it's like, well,
we don't really know that because we know nothing about
you other than you hint that your Rick Flair's daughter
by doing the figure for and letting out a WU.
I just think it's the character development that has been
lacking so far. I think the women were excited at
the beginning. Obviously Brooklyn was an amazing high point for
Sasha and Bailey. It just hasn't clicked Jason, and I

(01:05:37):
don't think Stephanie and Vince really understand what it meant
to follow up on the revolution.

Speaker 5 (01:05:43):
No, they didn't, and Charlotte did that one is bathling.
I mean, she has these poorly timed wus that I mean,
she just doesn't seem comfortable doing it. And that line
really bothered me because I when I see Charlotte forget
whatever her rep is or is and behind the scenes.
When I see Charlotte, when I've seen her at n
XT till until now, I see athlete I see Ronda

(01:06:06):
Rousey style athlete. I don't see party girl, and so
why pert why have her say that? And just because
you want people to think of her dad, that's not
she She doesn't even No matter again, what she does
behind the scenes doesn't matter. No one's looking at her
that way. She's positioned as this athlete type, and that's
what you need to play into, not Rick Flair's history

(01:06:29):
of partying. If you want to make her the nature girl,
go right ahead, you know, I mean, but pick a direction.
I guess with.

Speaker 1 (01:06:34):
Yeah, they're dipping her. She's dipping her till in the water.
It's just like, be one thing or the other. I'm
with you, I'd rather I'd rather have her be the
and I don't. I don't like you know, I get
the genetic thing. Oh, I'm Rick Laire's daughter and he
was the greatest, so therefore I might be the greatest.
But yeah, I just I don't even love that. I
just kind of want her to be herself. She can

(01:06:55):
be Rick Lair's daughter, but I want her to establish
her own identity that fits her. It's so difficult being
the daughter or the son of a big time wrestler,
especially when that's your gimmick, then you're the son or
daughter of a big, big time successful wrestler. There's so
many people where that has not worked out. So hopefully,
hopefully they can figure that out. But yeah, I'm as frustrated,

(01:07:18):
I think in a lot of ways as junior is. Junior.
Go ahead with your second question, please.

Speaker 15 (01:07:23):
Okay, My question was what happened to and what happened
to you if you got these groups or these teams
or whatever, what happened to them whipping your ass in
the back or in the parking lott or to me,
that's I'm sorry, that's the restaurer. I grew up on
way when if I got a problem with you, If
I got a heel group, they got a problem with you.

(01:07:44):
Remember when they followed, when they fall us and follow
that's rolls in the car all the way up the
highway and call them up the car broke his arm.
That's real to me, man, I can feel for that.
You're gonna get real heat, you know what I'm saying, Like,
why don't they I'm not to say you have to
take it that far, but you can even have the
camera running a back and you know, saying open the door,
there's Rick Flan Robert Ricky Morton face into the concrete.

(01:08:07):
You know what I'm saying. Even though we didn't see TV,
but even as a child.

Speaker 1 (01:08:13):
I was like, damn, you just more No, you show
more passion there, Junior than than Sting did when talking
about perhaps having crowning touch on his career being winning
the w W Championship when he talk last week. I
just had to turn that into thanks Junior. You know,
I was just talking to JJ Dell and with Bruce
Mitchell about that in July and Waterlo, Iowa at the
Progressing Hall of Fame that you know, JJ was talking
about all the little details that that they went into

(01:08:35):
to try to make that that angle that was filmed
off site work. You know, I mean, they're Jason, I
don't think you have to do outside the ring attacks
with factions or anything like that. But I I'll kind
of partly the question into is w WE just too
formulaic right now in terms of what they are doing?
Are there some ideas from the past that that they
could bring back and to kind of set some things

(01:08:57):
apart or part of me just thing, No, just tell
the stories in the ring, look at what NXT does
with success. Just have the wrestlers who you pick out
for the right reasons, because they're talented in the ring
and behind the mic, they have a connection with the
fans one way or the other, and just let them
do their thing, like NXT does. There's part of me
that thinks the more the stuff stays in the ring,
the better the product can be. Too. I think you

(01:09:19):
can make it work either way, but part of me
kind of leans towards let's just get wrestlers over his
heels and faces, like we saw with Sassin Bailey in Brooklyn.

Speaker 5 (01:09:26):
Yeah, when it comes to the women's division, absolutely, I
think just going with the pure athleticism route has been successful.
And yeah, there's been some fun things with Bailey and
you know all the different people who have played the
mean girl role to her, but behind large, it has
just been who's the better athlete, and I think that's
what they need to get to. I think the fashions way,

(01:09:48):
you know, I've said obviously, I think some of it
is they wanted to have the established EVA is give
these newcomers rub, which was unnecessary. But I think some
of it. Let me run this one by you, is
it is this their idea of well, at MMA they
have training teams, and so we're gonna have teams, you know,
that's the only thing I can.

Speaker 1 (01:10:07):
There's no will though there's well, I don't think there's
a way that people behind this. I don't think Vincent
Mann and Kevin Dunn are thinking in those terms. I
think they, I mean, because do they even know that.
I mean, was that. Don't you think if they did that,
they'd be proud of it and bring it up like,
you know, like just like an MMA, these women are
you know, trained with each other, watching each other's backs,
and they're part of the fact. I don't know. I

(01:10:27):
just think that would have been more overtly stated. I
think they introduced a bunch of women and wanted to
have an excuse to have them all on TV at
the same time without having to devote more. You know,
they felt this pressure to get them all over at once,
so let's throw them in factions. That's kind of my thought.
I mean, I'm not ruling it out. I just think
Vincent Stephanie seemed like the last people who would be
thinking about bringing women in under an MMA type you know,

(01:10:51):
formula or format.

Speaker 5 (01:10:54):
Yeah, I'm just I'm reaching to come up with some justification,
you know, it just it's it's not even gonna it's
not and valid justificade, but just something that would make
them do this, and I they can't get they can't
end it soon enough. I'm guessing way that what we're
seeing right now with Page is a sign that at
least PCP or PCB is going separate ways, because it

(01:11:14):
looks like she was the one who was expressing way
too much frustration last week after she lost not enough
happiness for Charlotte, and then last night she loses again.
So I think she's gonna reach the breaking point and
hopefully that will end the madness.

Speaker 1 (01:11:28):
Right And this is the type of thing where we
can be frustrated now, but they can salvage it, and
maybe in retrospect they kind of knew it's gonna be
rough for a month or two in certain ways. But
trust us, you know this is leading somewhere that's going
to make sense. But I need to see that happen
pretty consistently with other situations like this to have faith
that that's you know, that they're on a path that
makes sense and will make sense to us later on.

(01:11:50):
But I do think that even if they're improvising us,
they go there's a chance to steer things in the
right direction more. But part of it is what we're
saying about Charlotte. Get her over, you know, figure out
who she is and put some time in figuring out
who she is. That is, other than being in Rick
Flair shadow. Figure out the best way to utilize page
And by the way, feature Sasha Banks as a star.
Don't put her out there with no hype in that

(01:12:12):
match after cesslong promo, and I mean, it's just it
defines her down when you just throw her out there
and she is a star again. On the Steve Austin
Podcast today, On the Steve Austin Show dropped today, Steve
and I talked in depth about that Sasha Banks Bailey match.
Steve was a huge fan of that match, huge fan
of that match, and we broke it down and talked
a lot about that and some other aspects of NXT Plus.

(01:12:35):
I interviewed Steve Austin. He handed the hosting mic over
to me, turn the tables around, and I got to
talk to him about a real mix of eclectic topics
that led to really fun discussions. Check it out about
an hour and a half. That's over at the Steve
Austin podcast, not the Unleashed, but the family friendly version
available at podcast one and iTunes. Let's take maybe just
one more call here before we go to the VIP

(01:12:56):
after show. Maybe two. Let's go to five four, next,
five four. Thanks for rolding. Please state your name and
where you're calling from.

Speaker 16 (01:13:02):
Hey, what's up?

Speaker 5 (01:13:03):
Guys?

Speaker 16 (01:13:04):
It's Brandon or Rex from New Orleans?

Speaker 1 (01:13:08):
Now, who is it? We give up?

Speaker 16 (01:13:11):
Well, Rex is work name?

Speaker 1 (01:13:19):
Or is this?

Speaker 5 (01:13:20):
Sorry?

Speaker 1 (01:13:20):
Go ahead, Brandon slash Rex.

Speaker 16 (01:13:22):
You've had me on the show before.

Speaker 5 (01:13:24):
Dude.

Speaker 16 (01:13:24):
You used to send me these packets that had these
bright orange templates on the outside that held together the
information that had everybody's real names.

Speaker 1 (01:13:39):
That's going way back.

Speaker 16 (01:13:40):
Yeah, yeah, no, come on, we go, we go back.

Speaker 1 (01:13:43):
Cool. So what do you go ahead with the question?

Speaker 16 (01:13:46):
Well, as a creator, as a creative writer, and as
someone who has written for for a team before that,
I wonder is they're a big issue with with the
team having too many writers and not having them assigned properly.
Because the way that years ago, the way that we

(01:14:09):
used to write was we would write the finish, the payoffs.
We would have that first and then then write everything
to build up to that. And I don't think they're
necessarily doing that right now because that, I mean, that's
why you have these screwy last minute changes, Like they

(01:14:35):
said Rick Flair was going to come in and cost
cost Eno the match, but John Stewart did it.

Speaker 1 (01:14:42):
Yeah, Okay, Well, I think you you're drawing Brandon on
a way that WWB used to do things when they
used to have to take TV on multiple night or
for multiple weeks on one night, and they had they
planned ahead. It's it's a different world now, Jason, and
I think it's man thinks there's only one way to
do it now because we've got to feed the beast
every week and it's all about improvising as we go,

(01:15:06):
and it's it's, you know, fly by the seed of
your pants. Every day is a new day. And I
do think there's something to be said for booking backwards now.
I think there are some things Vince books backwards with
and that is his very top storylines. I think he's
willing to stray from them if there's injuries or things
go certain ways. But you know, we've had a lot
of X writers on the PWD Torch live cast over
the last several years, and you know they do say

(01:15:29):
you know, ultimately their job is to if they're not
one of the top guys in ed Cosky, for instance,
their their job is to pitch ideas for certain wrestlers.
But in the end there is a hierarchy. James Caldwell
and a just amazing cover story he wrote a few
months back in the per a couple months back in
the Prosing Torch newsletter, longest story ever in the newsletter
broke down you know how that creative process works, and

(01:15:51):
the corporate process and the vincement man creative approach to
things in a way that nobody's ever done before in
that much depth, certainly not in a twenty fifteen setting.
So if you want to know more about that, go
VIP and check out the July Prosing Torture news Letter.
Back issues. Jason, You've got the sense that Vince kind
of like I do books backwards for about three four

(01:16:12):
five guys, and that's about it. Everything else kind of
week tweak.

Speaker 5 (01:16:17):
Yes, yeah, it may even may It may be as
simple as his WrestleMania main event backward, and then whatever
Johnson is doing backward, if john Seen is not the
WrestleMania Maine event, and but that's about it. I don't
think there's throughout the course of the year. I don't
think it's uh, most guys have that. I think it's
made up on the fly, And I feel pity for

(01:16:39):
the creative team members that want to take a more
disciplined approach to things, want to have more of a
voice in there, and just don't get that opportunity because
even if they write out a great storyline, it's going
to be tweaked and changed, and there's you know, there's
just no way you can have any continuity when that happens.

Speaker 1 (01:16:55):
Yeah, no, I'm with you. I'm with you. All right.
We're gonna wrap up the show on that note. My
time's a little bit more limited this week, so we're
going to try to squeeze in a VIP after show
here with the time that I have left this week.
Thank you everybody for joining us here. You can follow
me at Thewadekeller. You can also visit my Blogwadkeller dot
com with thoughts on what's going on in wrestling, both
in written format and my new on camera video blogs.

(01:17:17):
Check it out at Wadekeller dot com. The latest one
is always in the upper right corner on the homepage,
and you can also follow our brand on Twitter at
pw torch. And then you can also get MMA coverage
including UFC one ninety one results and analysis from Saturday
Night Over at our sister brand mmatorch dot com. And
of course you can find this show at pwtorch livecast

(01:17:38):
dot com and our main website, the centerpiece of it all,
pw torch dot com, with daily news, live TV coverage,
live payperview coverage, house show results, and specialist columns, editorials
and so much more pw torch dot com formatted for
your desktop, your laptop, your tablet and your phone. Jason
wrap up the show with some plugs for your stuff,
and then we'll move on to the VIP after show

(01:17:58):
for our respective members.

Speaker 5 (01:18:00):
Yeah. Absolutely. You can check out the main page of
Pro wrestling dot Net. Find that sign up Erry again
for as little as five fifty a month, be taker
annual option. You could have access to the ad free
version of the website. My WWE raw hitlist is up,
Will Pruit's Pause review is available, and you can also
follow me on Twitter at pro wrestling Net.

Speaker 1 (01:18:19):
Excellent. Thank you everybody for joining us tomorrow Pat McNeil
with Disco Inferno. It's a fun show. Catch it live.
Join in. If we didn't get to you today, and
there is a number number handful of you that we
did not get to on today's program, just call tomorrow
talk to Pat and Disco about Nitro memories or Raw
this week, or anything else you want to talk about
until next time. I'd be happy to Chase Powell Progressling

(01:18:39):
dot net. Wait Keller, you don't have to wait for
the way Keller Pro Wrestling post show to find out
what I thought of Monday Night Raw. Each week you

(01:19:00):
can check out my reports that are updated live throughout
Raw and SmackDown at pwtorch dot com. My written report
will tell you what's happening in detail in case you
missed the show, and it will also analyze key segments
and give my random thoughts quips on what I am
watching as it airs. So check it out every Monday
night and Tuesday night at pewtorch dot com. That also

(01:19:22):
applies to WWE payperviews. I cover those live at pw
torch dot com with a detailed written report with star ratings,
and of course you can find other TV reports from
other contributors to PW Torch, such as nxt roh, Impact Wrestling,
and more. Check it out pwtorch dot com, your first
stop for TV and pay per views written reports. All right,

(01:19:54):
we're now in the VIIP after show portion of the program.
I'm Waight Keller of PW Torch, joined by Jason Powellporessing
dot com net. And again this is a VP after
show with the PW Torch Live cast Tuesday, September eighth,
twenty fifteen. Jason, we alluded to it earlier and talking
about tag teams, but edgud Christian on with Steve Boston
yesterday last night after Raw. I only caught some of it.

(01:20:15):
I was a little bit behind on Ron the DBR
and I was prepping for my hotline. But I did
have it on and caught a few minutes here and there.
It seemed. I've heard some mixed things about the content.
What I saw I liked. I thought it was a fun,
entertaining conversation. I have never seen Edge show that much
personality in terms of laughing, you know, just laughing at stuff,
you know, just I mean, I don't even that as

(01:20:36):
a dig at Edge It's just like that a side
of his personality came out where he really let his
guard down and he wasn't in edge character. He was
just laughing as Adam Copeland with his buddy Jay and
and his old friend Steve. And I think that's the
aspect of the Steve Boston podcast that works really well
when he's with other wrestlers, is when it doesn't become

(01:20:57):
a structured Q and A like. It is a little
bit more so with Stephanie or Hunter or Vince, but
just Steve as a highly respected ex colleague or like
in the case of Page, a veteran, respected legend talking
to a younger wrestler, but in this case a contemporary
of sorts with Edgend Christian, what'd you think of the

(01:21:18):
dynamic and really what stood out to you? I know
you have a full detailed report on your website people
can read too.

Speaker 5 (01:21:22):
I do. Yeah, it was an entertaining hour, I think
is the best way to sum it up, because it
wasn't There was nothing groundbreaking. I think they the next
the page was certainly hurt by it. Edgend Christian was
hurt by it, and they know if they just keep
going down the list of not Triple H, not Vince
McMahon types. You know, I think that really kind of

(01:21:45):
damaged this for people. I think people are going in
expecting something great after seeing some of those early podcasts
that they did to get people buzzing, and now they
are kind of moving down a notch. And that's nothing
against the people that are being interviewed. Is natural role.
But you're not going to be wowed by an edgend
Christian interview if you followed their career closely, because there's

(01:22:05):
really not much left for them to tell. You know,
They've They've put it all out there, one time or another,
and so watching it, I didn't come away from it
feeling like I really learned anything new, but I still
enjoyed the hour. I was entertained by it. I guess
the thing that jumps out to me the most is
Adam Copeland Edge just being so laid back about his retirement,

(01:22:26):
just being so accepting of it, just moving on so seamlessly.
Most guys can't do that. The one question Wight I
wanted Steve Austin to ask was something along those lines
to Christian, because you know, Edge and all that talking
about how Vince McMahon called him personally and all of that.
And then there's Christian whose retirement was just an afterthought. Oh,
by the way, Christian retired, and so I would I

(01:22:46):
wished he would have gone into some tried to get
Christian to talk a little bit about that, but it
was just maybe too laid back, I guess would be
my only criticism.

Speaker 1 (01:22:56):
Do you think that he was they were asked not
to talk about Christian's retirement. I think poor Christian was
sitting there going what about me? And neither Edge nor
Austin brought it up, because you know, he wasn't a
star at the level of Edge.

Speaker 5 (01:23:07):
I'm I don't think that's it. My guess is that
Austin just had some other things he wanted to get in,
and maybe he didn't even realize he never turned it
over to Christian. It I mean, because there's maybe Austin
just didn't even realize that Christian's retirement was such an
afford thought. You know, he's friends with the guy, so
maybe he didn't realize in the storyline world, they didn't
do right by him.

Speaker 1 (01:23:27):
Jason, don't look at me. You know that was a
fun part. You know, it's it's it is. It's fun
when you know, wrestlers just kind of lose themselves, forget
there's a camera to mic on to a degree, you know,
to a certain extent, and just get comfortable and show themselves.
And that that certainly is the aspect that I like
the most. But I'm also fascinated how much that they're
willing to and I don't mind in the network interview

(01:23:50):
context they sit down so called podcast context talking about
like take team wrestling strategies. I get a kick out
of Steve Austin, know bringing up the tag ropes when
you know, I was talking to him about it on
one of the shows we just did last week, or
maybe it's the one that dropped today. Like a lot
of the things that get on Steve's mind stay on
his mind, you know, Like you know, he's gonna bring
up are you a pro wrestler or sports entertainer? Every time?

(01:24:11):
And with tag wrestling, it's like, what about the tag
rup There's so many things you can do. It was
kind of funny because I don't think Edge really knew
where to go with that, so he's just like, well, yeah,
there's a lot of things like don't whip your opponent
into the corner of your you know, into the corner
where the guy not in the match is standing. You
got to do the opposite, and he kind of went
a different direction with it. But to talk about strategy,
when the wrestlers talk to each other for the fans

(01:24:33):
about how to devise and orchestrate a match, it's fascinating.
Do you think it's a good thing, Jason, or is
that part of maybe pulling the curtain back too far?
Is it better if they actually don't start explaining some
of those things that maybe people never thought of before
because they start watching matches differently. Or is it really
no big deal? Ultimately it doesn't take away from anything.

Speaker 5 (01:24:53):
I'm kind of okay with it. Maybe I'm just so
numb to it now.

Speaker 1 (01:24:58):
It's just.

Speaker 5 (01:25:00):
The audience that has a network. I just don't know
what the breakdown is compared to, all Right, how many
of these people are just complete late not even casual fans. Yeah,
I think you have to be a little bit more
than that probably to have the network, but just more
casual than somebody listening to this podcast for instance. And
I do think that a big part of the appeal

(01:25:20):
of the network is when they do pull the curtain
back a bit, and I enjoy that type of conversation.
It's out there on Austin's regular podcasts and all the
other wrestling personality podcasts. I have a feeling you're gonna
disagree way, but maybe I'll be wrong.

Speaker 1 (01:25:36):
No, No, I don't really. I'm not sure that I
have a strong feeling on it yet. I oh, guys,
it's kind of new territory. I asked, because I'm kind
of swayable, you know. I'm just I don't. I don't
want them talking about it during raw. I like there
to be defined parameters for the narrative. I don't like
bouncing around. But yeah, I know.

Speaker 15 (01:25:53):
No.

Speaker 1 (01:25:54):
Again, from what I saw on I want to, you know,
go back and watch Idge and Christian start to finish.
Although I did read your report and got a good,
good vibe for what I didn't what I didn't see
as it aired live, we got an email question from Darryl.
He says, do you think WWE will realize top Rasts
will realize that now that since almost a year, actually
almost two years, they've been trying to put their guy

(01:26:16):
on top and have failed super bad All caps now
and and that now the missing piece Daniel Bryan, even
though they tell us guys like him can't work, but
since he's been hurt, they're holding him out on purpose,
and he's still more over than anyone else on the
roster besides John Cena. So do you think they'll ever
acknowledge this still? Will they see this and will they
give Daniel Bryan a push or is he getting the

(01:26:37):
blame for all this. I'm not sure about the last part, Jason,
But we talked about Daniel Bryan. If he really is
healthy and cleared to come back, and it's a big hypothetical.
I'm not voting for him to come back if he
truly isn't able to do so without doing more damage
to his brain from concussions or be injury prone, but
very hypothetically, if he truly, truly truly is clearard medically

(01:27:00):
and wrestling isn't going to do long term damage to him,
do you think WWE's in a position where they're like, oh, God,
we really missed him when he was gone, and we
really want to We're not going to take for granted
what he brought to the table and push him hard.
If he does return sometime between Dallamnia.

Speaker 5 (01:27:15):
No, No, I think they're going to go into this
very cautiously. I don't think they're going to bury him,
but I think they will be very cautious when he
does return. They're not going to want to invest too
much in him. I think they're going to showcase him
as much as they feel comfortable. And again, you know,
he'll probably be a star, but I don't think they're

(01:27:36):
ever going to feel I don't think Vince mcmanon's ever
going to feel safe pushing him as the star. And
it might be convenient for him because I don't think
he ever had any interest in doing that anyway. But
I mean, even Daniel Bryan has mentioned that in some
of the interviews he's done that he does, you know,
he knows he's lost their confidence because of these injuries
that he suffered and the whole You know that, it's

(01:27:57):
so interesting to me that it's Daniel Bryan's just saying
you're good, you're clear, and it's WWE's doctors going eh,
not so fast. That is just a completely new dynamic
compared to what it was for so many years. Yea,
I you know, there's this concussion movie coming Outwigh and
I wonder if he is. And it sounds like WWE's

(01:28:19):
their guy, Joseph Maroon. Early word is that he doesn't
come out of this looking so good. And I just
wonder if they're going to be more cautious than ever,
and if Daniel Brian could get caught out, you know,
delayed even longer.

Speaker 1 (01:28:30):
I am all for Daniel Brian never wrestling again, and
if he if he can't be trusted to use his
best judgment, and I am I am so worried. I
am there's nothing about Daniel Brian that makes me trust
his judgment when it comes to this. I think is
a super nice guy, probably one of the nicer guys
who's ever been in the wrestling industry from all indications,
I mean, just seems like a really good guy, good heart.

(01:28:51):
But man reading his book, reading his interviews, joking about
how I'm a pretty honest guy except when it comes
to talking to doctors, you know, just alright, joking about that.
I just I don't want it's going to be hard
to enjoy his matches if he's taking crazy bumps out there,
when when the when he's showing a resistance and a
reluctance to pull back on a style overtly. It's not

(01:29:12):
just oh in the ring he did, he's just already said, oh,
I'm an artist. I can't pull back. I mean it's
like he said stuff like that. I just it's so yeah,
the discussion what Daniel Brian just always has to go
back to. It sucks, But I don't know that I
want him to come back.

Speaker 5 (01:29:26):
You know, well, to me, it's I wish he would
go into more detail with the you know, his neurologists
has cleared him. Is this the one and only neurologist?
Is he going out through finding a doctor that will
tell him what he wants to hear? You know? What
is it that wwe is seeing that the neurologist he
brings up. Isn't that you know? You're good to go

(01:29:47):
it because you can generally find a doctor who will
tell you what you want if you look, if you
keep looking. You know, we've we've seen that with players
in professional sports as well, in just mainstream sports as well.
You can always find somebody that's going to tell you
you don't need this surg It happened with the Viking
a few years ago. One of the wide receivers had
an injury and he just became doctor told me he

(01:30:07):
needed surgery. Other doctors told me he needed surgery, but
he found one who told him, no, you're fine and
you'll be able to just heal without surgery, and he
ended up meeting the surgery and wasted an entire season
because of it. So you can find doctors that will
tell you what you want to hear. I hope that's
not what's happening here, but I just don't know.

Speaker 17 (01:30:25):
Yeah, I'm Kelly Wells, host of PWT Talks NXT, the
longest running NXT podcast Anywhere.

Speaker 18 (01:30:38):
Join me along with Nate Lindberg, Bruce Lee, Hazelwood, and
special guests, live every Tuesday night, just minutes after NXT,
where we cover the good, the bad, and the ugly
on the way to becoming a star in WWE. Check
us out live on YouTube or stream later wherever you
get your podcasts.

Speaker 1 (01:31:02):
All right, more, Boris R says did the raw ratings
come in?

Speaker 2 (01:31:06):
No?

Speaker 1 (01:31:07):
Because of Labor Day number two? Although Twitter social media
was way down, not that that really matters much, but
he also says, what did you think of the Brett
Hart interview? Jason Bretteart interview had some harsh words. Assume
you saw about the harsh words about Hulk Hogan in
particular your.

Speaker 5 (01:31:23):
Fish ones this time? What did I miss this time?

Speaker 1 (01:31:25):
Oh, Brett Brett said that Hogan must have been happy.
I assume he's talking about the one where Brett said
he's Hogan must be happy that Roddy Piper died so
took some of the heat off him for the racist comments.

Speaker 5 (01:31:35):
Well, Hulk was there to immediately say that Roddy was
his best friend, which I've never had heard Hulk say
before Roddy's passing. Yeah, I found that very interesting as
far as the timing is concerned. But we've said it before.
You know, many times Brett has good days, Brett has
bad days. You'd never know quite what you're going to

(01:31:55):
get from Brett. Yeah, and you know he definitely has
lingering bad feelings with hul Kogan. He may mean exactly
what he said, and even on a good day he
might say this may have been a good day. But
it's just it's Brett, you know. And I think go
read his comments on Tyson kids injury and pointing the
finger to some extent at someone with Joe when nobody
else is and unfortunately It's just it's hard for me
to just get caught up in what Brett Hart says

(01:32:18):
anymore because he's he's I think his opinions changed with
his mood.

Speaker 1 (01:32:23):
Yeah, no, no, I agree. I think Brett just doesn't
have a filter anymore, partially because he's always been someone
who I think wants to speak his mind. That was
always his proclivity. His default mode was just speak his mind,
regardless of the social grace of it. And then you
add in the concussion issue and feeling beholden to no
one with his age. It could be any combination of things.

(01:32:43):
But I've just stopped being super critical of Brett because
Brett is Brett, and he's going to say that stuff.
And I mean, he shouldn't say it. He should be
criticized for it to a degree, but you know, it
just feels like you're holding Brett to a standard he's
never going to to pull back to, you know, which
is just there's things you say publicly and then there's
things you say privately to your friends or your family,

(01:33:04):
and that line just seems kind of blurred right now.
Up next, DG says is a three hour format starting
to hurt the rob Brant for weeks now starting I know,
I can't read that with a straight face. For weeks now,
we've seen the ratings fall. I understand the writing is
falling flat. But we're going back to ours help storylines
and build characters. DG. Have you ever listened to us before? Yes,
the three hour format is damaging to Raw. It was

(01:33:25):
only a matter of time and before it did. You
can have a hot product and sustain this much TV.
You can have a mediocre product and hot shot and
sustain this much TV time to fill. But eventually, when
you don't have a hot product and you've hot shot
a lot, you start running out of things. And yeah,

(01:33:45):
the foundation and structure and star power depth Jason just
isn't there to support three hours right now. The way
that they're producing Raw, I think it's I actually think
you can do a better job with three hours by
far than they are doing, to the point where people
might not be complaining very much. In the product might
be decent, you know, even in the three hour format,
maybe very good. But if they did all those things

(01:34:05):
to make the three hour format better, all those things
would still be better within a two hour format. You know,
there's very little about going three hours that is inherently
required for WWB to become a hot product maximizing revenue.
I think ultimately doing a really good job with the
two hour show will met you more in the long run.
With a network model pay per view revenue SmackDown to

(01:34:27):
try to prop up ratings for which and that's been
crashing lately. I still think two hour RAS is the
best way to go. Of course, there are people who
say more than Marria, give me three and a half
or four hours a RAW. I get that there's a
slice of people but who are that way. But when
you step back and look at the big picture, that
most people are running out of steam and aren't left

(01:34:47):
wanting more, and it is bad for the product overall,
even if it's good to have that extra hour of
ad revenue. In a very micro, narrow minded sense, I.

Speaker 5 (01:34:56):
Agree with every single thing you said there, and I
think next we at this time we're going to be
talking about some pretty rough ratings for RAW with that
ESPN double header, and I wouldn't even be surprised when
the ratings come out tomorrow for this week if things
are ugly because there was a college football game on.
I just think three hours makes raw somehow more missible.

(01:35:16):
There's not. There's so much filler in there. There's so
much content that feels like filler that I think it's
easy for people to miss or DVR and speed through
a lot and just not be as connected to the product,
whereas if it's two hours, maybe those same people are
DVR in the show, but they might actually watch it
from start to finish and get a little more invested
than they are. I'd love to if here's my compromise way,

(01:35:38):
because I don't think they're ever going to go back
to two hours permanently. Can you at least do it
during football season? It's for your own good. It's not
because I'm a football fan. It's for your own good.
I think they're going to be destroyed. I mean, the
numbers are Look at the numbers for Thursday for SmackDown.
It's embarrassing. And that wasn't you know? That was college
football combined with regional for the most part NFL coverage,

(01:36:01):
and it's going to get ugly wood. I mean, you
brought it up last week. Maybe Tuesday's not such a
bad idea.

Speaker 1 (01:36:08):
I know I did. Any final topic you want to
bring up, Jason Before we wrap.

Speaker 5 (01:36:13):
Up, last question I had for you. One month from now,
are we talking about how we just watched the last
TNA show. I mean, I know they have some UK
events in January, but I mean with the Destination America
deal expected to be coming up, here in no real
buzz about any type of renewal and only Bound for
Glory is the only thing left as far inside of

(01:36:36):
some hoow shows leading up to it, what are we
talking about a month from now? As far as that
company is concerned.

Speaker 1 (01:36:41):
I'll feel better when they have an actual TV taping
scheduled and they tell the guys prepare for TV.

Speaker 5 (01:36:47):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:36:47):
But I mean, the last thing that I heard is
that they'll be on through the end of the year. Okay,
so but again I'm mildly skeptical of that until we
hear about a TV taping to fill out out October, November,
and December. But they have enough dates you're going forward
with Bound for Glory. But you know they've I think,

(01:37:08):
you know, their communication is not great with talent. But
the last indication I had is the impression they're giving
is you know, we're good through the end of the year.
And then and then we're talking about twenty sixteen and beyond,
just like Ring of Honor is when it comes to
destination of America's you know, long term plan. So I
just think every weekly rating matters. They dropped two Wednesdays
ago badly, they rebounded nicely last Wednesday, So I think

(01:37:30):
their future realize is somewhat dependent. I think unless they
just have an executive destination America is like, at the
end of the year, we're done, no matter what barring.
You know, at two point four rating that starts beating raw.
So I think there's still they need some good shows,
and they need some momentum to probably survive beyond twenty
fifteen or have improved their chances greatly. If their ratings

(01:37:51):
go up. If their ratings go down, I think they're dead.
But I'm not. But I'm also skeptical that they'll be
on in October, you know. I mean, I just without
some official pri acclamation and the only answer being legally
we can't say anything through any official channel. That does
make me skeptical of either way. But yeah, what the
latest I'm hearing is they are feeling good about being

(01:38:13):
on through the end of the year.

Speaker 5 (01:38:15):
Okay, I mean that's encouraging. It will keep in mind
too for everybody listening that if they announce a television
taping there needs to be some gloating from TNA's because
there always is. If there's any sort of there needs
to be a week told just so we're not going
anywhere with Destination America because that television taping way, it
could easily be for international only.

Speaker 1 (01:38:35):
Yep, yep.

Speaker 5 (01:38:36):
Yeah. So I mean, but it's encouraging what you're saying.
But they got to one way or another. I mean,
the best thing is going to happen for them is
to get out of this potential lame duck status. I
think there are people out there who've just kind of
given up right now, where maybe some of them would
give it another chance if they felt like this company
was actually going to be around for a while, but
it's out of their control obviously.

Speaker 1 (01:38:56):
Yeah, And you know, they might be thinking, well, how
many people really know about the reports that were you know, dumped,
that were done in September. You know, is that really
a huge problem? And I don't know, I don't know
what percentage of their viewers know about that or not. Yeah,
I don't know. I'm I'm up in the air. But
I'm not as passive. I'm I've never been as doomsday

(01:39:19):
that it's just over for sure, because nobody ever said
it's over for sure. Even the reports were hedging, you know,
from the observer originally, so you know, somewhat hedging. You know,
you can sort of win either way. Well, I said
this as a caveat, but but if it goes this
way while I said that all along, and I just
I don't think we've had a definitive follow up on that,
so until then, I'm not hedging. I'm just saying the

(01:39:42):
latest is I think they're good to the end of
the year. But again, I got to see the TV
taping on the schedule to add some evidence. But even that's,
like you said, Jason, not definitive.

Speaker 5 (01:39:51):
Yeah, and if I'm Destination America, I get that word
out immediately. I don't just sit there and play this
game of wait and see if it's going to be
on the schedule in October.

Speaker 1 (01:40:00):
Oh, I absolutely, I mean I would there would be
nice to say that. I just it's t and A
just hoping to gloat by never acknowledging it and acting
like it wasn't even worth their time and dan a.
September comes, and then October comes and they're still on
Wednesday nights, and then November comes and they're still on
Wednesday nights. And their way of gloating is just acting
like that report wasn't worth their time a day to

(01:40:20):
begin with, and.

Speaker 5 (01:40:22):
That's not how they do business everywhere. They can't stop themselves,
you know, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:40:27):
Yeah, I know. That's what added to the skepticism that
they would be on in October, because they haven't said
anything definitively. So maybe they were scared because they didn't know,
you know, and they couldn't get a straight answer. I'm
not sure anyway, Jason, thank you so much, thanks to
the members of our Inspective sites for joining us here
on the VIP after show. Jason, until next week sounds good. Wait,
I'll talk to you then, sounds good, and it'll be

(01:40:48):
uh Viking. We'll know whether Vikings are one and oh
or on one by then.

Speaker 5 (01:40:52):
I will be very happy on Tuesday or very sad
one of the other. Unpredicting happy or oh oh in one.
How will you feel then? Well, that's one. I'll either
be very happy or very sad, but I'm predicting very happy.

Speaker 1 (01:41:02):
But no, but it could be no winsnow losses and
a tie.

Speaker 5 (01:41:05):
Oh a tie, yeah, don't say that. I'm not after
law and the game doesn't I mean, oh my lord,
that's just too late. So no, I'll take a loss
before overtime rather than a tie.

Speaker 1 (01:41:19):
I'm with you, all right, Thanks everybody, once again, until
next time. On behalf of Jason Powell Wade Keller signing off.
Invite you to email the show with feedback or questions
or comments. That email address is Wade Keller Podcast at

(01:41:41):
petewtorch dot com. That's Wadekeller Podcast at pw torch dot com.
Also welcome your feedback on Twitter. You can follow us
on Twitter at pw Torch and follow me at the
Wade Keller. That's at PW Torch and at the Wade Keller.

Speaker 5 (01:41:57):
Searching for more great pro wrestling talk, then join me
Jason Powell host them the three weekly Pro Wrestling Boom Podcast.
Each week, you'll hear the latest news and analysis from
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(01:42:19):
all your favorite secondary apps, or visit us directly at
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Speaker 1 (01:42:28):
Thanks for listening to our podcast. Did you know we
also have a website pwtorch dot com. Daily news updates, editorials,
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