10 YRS AGO FLAGSHIP: Keller & Powell talk Lesnar’s early appearance, third hour ratings crash, news on TNA World Title and Total Divas cast

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Speaker 2 (01:06):
Now, PW Torch and Spreaker bring you the Wade Keller
Pro Wrestling Podcast ten years ago.

Speaker 1 (01:16):
This week on the flagship, Jason Powell from Pro Wrestling
dot Net joined me and we talked about Brock listener's
early appearance on Raw third hour ratings Crash for Raw
New Day in the main event spot with John Cena,
our thoughts on the NXT Takeover special and more, and
then in the previously v IP exclusive after show, we
reflected on caller topics on the main part of the

(01:37):
show that directly proceeded to be at the after show,
and we also talked about breaking news regarding the TNA
World Title and the Total Divas cast. Plus we answered
email topics on WWB charity, who could Spark Raw and
much more.

Speaker 2 (01:49):
So, Let's get to it.

Speaker 1 (01:50):
This is the Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast ten years
Ago Flakeship Flashback for Sunday, October fifth, twenty twenty five.
In this episode originally live streamed on October sixth, fIF
Love Torch. Welcome to dp W Torch Live Cast. I

(02:14):
am Wade Keller, editor and publisher of the Pro Wrestling
Torch weekly newsletter since nineteen eighty seven and also PW
torch dot com, the website MMA torch dot Com covering
the world of USC and MMA, including a big pay
per view on Saturday Night last Saturday Night pull coverage
to that along with apps on Android and Apple. You

(02:36):
can download the apps for free PW Torch and MMA Torch.
I also host this the PW Torch livecast on Tuesdays
and Thursdays. Because it is Tuesday, October sixth, twenty fifteen,
Jason Powell from Pro Wrestling dot Net schedulers who joined
me momentarily and on Thursday at a special time, we

(02:59):
will have have a special guest. We'll be on at
seven Eastern, the same time that Bruce Mitchell and Travis
Bryant are on on Fridays Interview. Thursday moves just this
one week to seven Eastern for our interview live with
Bob Backland, former WWF World Heavyweight Champion and author of Backland,

(03:22):
a new autobiography that Todd Martin and I delved into
for about an hour on The Fix with Todd Martin
last week and an in depth walk through the book
and reaction to it. And Bruce Mitchell, Senior Towards columnist
who we're celebrating twenty five years as a columnist with
Progressing Torch all month with daily articles that we're posting
one from each year that he's been a Towards columnist,

(03:44):
starting with nineteen ninety. Today we published a column from
nineteen ninety four, and Bruce and I will be going
into that in depth on that two for VTP members.
But Bob will be joining me live seven Eastern in
two days on Thursday, October eighth, two, twenty fifteen. I'm
I have mixed feelings on Raw last night, so I'm

(04:06):
looking forward to hearing what everybody has to say about that,
and we will bring now our co host of the program,
my co host of the program into the show. Jason,
Welcome to.

Speaker 3 (04:17):
The live cast, Hey Wade, good to be here.

Speaker 1 (04:20):
Great Jason. Paul from Progressing dot Net, of course, joins
me every Tuesday live for an hour or so as
we take calls and emails. By the way, you can
email PW Torch live cast at gmail dot com if
you have a topic or question you want us to discuss,
but for any reason, you can't call the show live today. Jason,
mixed feelings on yesterday show. Certainly some things that hit

(04:43):
my buttons and raged me. Stephan McMahon a few of those,
but also some storyline movement, I guess, some amusing moments,
some hard hitting wrestling. What was your kind of take
on last night's program? Was it a step in the
right direction, or just a better version of the bad
stuff that they've been doing.

Speaker 3 (05:00):
I think it was a better version of the bad
stuff they've been doing. I didn't that way. Yeah, yeah,
I just it felt like it was a weird episode.
I mean, I had a hard time with taking New
Day seriously as the uh, the the monster heeled types
at the end of the show. I don't mind the direction,
but I think they need to move away from being

(05:20):
comedy figures if that's the approach they want to take.
I guess way. The biggest puzzler to me was the
use of brock Lesner at the beginning of the show
and offering no hook to keep, you know, keep those
viewers who wanted to see Lesner to continue watching it.
Just he was there, he did his thing, and he
left just in time for the football game to start.

Speaker 1 (05:41):
You know. I think the only the only guests I
have besides that he had an early plane early an
early plane to catch would be if wwb's just trying
to let yours know you gotta watch from the beginning,
because last week you would have miss John Cena. This
week you would have missed brock Lesner, and so every
part of the show counts. It could also be you know,

(06:03):
you know, they're not up against Monday night football at
the start, and so if there's some if they're worried
about overexposing Lesnar, or figure, let's just get him out
there for twenty minutes of Paul Hayman, have him tossed
around Big Show again, and we'll show highlights later and
move on to other things because Undertaker's not here. I mean,
I can kind of talk myself into accepting that strategy,
especially if the theory is it's before the football game starts.

Speaker 3 (06:27):
Okay. The flaw though, is that there's nothing stopping them
from creating a hook and bringing him back later in
the show. I mean, I don't think one more segment
with brock Lesnar, even if you just kind of split
up the thing with Big Show and have him do
that later in the night, somehow, I don't think that's
going to overexpose him. And they just don't. It's just like,

(06:48):
here's his segment and we're done, and I don't. I mean,
is there some reason that they that they just don't
drag his appearances out more, get more out of them
than what they do. It's just Hey, stand there and
Paul's gonna talk. And once in a while, like we
saw last night, he roughed somebody up. But it's pretty
rare that we see him in multiple segments when he
appears on Raw.

Speaker 1 (07:07):
Maybe it's in his contract. Maybe he only wants to
walk out once the what else jumped out on the
show to you, Jason, I mean, there's a few places
we can go with it, but what else stood out
as especially good or bad? Yeah? Pick something else?

Speaker 3 (07:23):
Well, I'll go positive here. As much as I've complained
about Ruseph and I still feel the guy is a
money heel for them, but he's doing a hell of
a job with the with the comedic character they've given him.
I thought his line last night in response to Summer
about how he didn't really like her at first and
it's only been the last couple of weeks that he

(07:43):
started to was hilarious.

Speaker 1 (07:45):
Correct he actually so?

Speaker 3 (07:48):
Yeah? I mean they're a riot, There's there's no denying that.
I still don't think it's money, but at least they're
taking this in a direction with I think they can
get some you know, a rating stunt out of this.
Weddings do well, and I think that one will be
no exception. I think people are going to as much
as people will complain, someone will complain about it, some
will think it's hilarious. I think everyone's gonna want to
see how that actually goes down.

Speaker 1 (08:09):
Did you for a second there, I thought that they
were going to do a wedding relatively soon. But then
Russa said, you know, he'll only marry her if he
what wins a championship or was he specific? I'm trying
to remember.

Speaker 3 (08:20):
It was just gold. A gold around his waist means
around her finger, and I think what this means. It's
probably foreshadowing. I guess it is get with John Cena
taking a break that he ends up with the US championship.

Speaker 1 (08:32):
Yeah, yeah, that makes some sense, and maybe that gets
some legs underneath him as a heel. People were commenting
on Twitter during the show about how far rus says
English has come since he's, you know, been hooked up
with summ Ray. What or some Ray has been like
tutoring him on English because he's starting to sound a
little less authentically Eastern European as he has more that

(08:54):
they ask him to say. But anyhow, let's let's go
ahead and take our first break of the program and
we come back. We're going to go right into phone calls,
and you guys can pick the topics you want to
speak about. Do you are disagree with what Jason I
have said so far and U or do you have
other topics you want to bring up. Let's dive into it,
but first a break and we'll be back right after
a word from our sponsors.

Speaker 2 (09:16):
As a listener of the.

Speaker 1 (09:19):
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(09:42):
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Back to the program, we go now with phone calls.
I'm Wadekeller of Pro Wrestling Torch, joined by Jason Powell
of Pro Wrestling dot Net. Don't forget Bob back one
our schedule guest Thursday at a special start time seven

(10:02):
pm Eastern to talk about his book and his career.
So spread the word on that we're excited to have
him as on the program live on Thursday. All right,
let's go to the phone lines and begin with area code. Uh,
let's see here three oh five, three or five. Thanks
for holding. Please state your name and the city are
calling from.

Speaker 4 (10:21):
Hey guys, j Z from Miami.

Speaker 1 (10:23):
Hey, JJ, what have you got for Jason to me?

Speaker 4 (10:25):
I got two things. My first thing is that the
doves Ziggler and the Russet thing. I mean, the storyline's okay,
it feels like a macho man thing, you know, with
the wedding again thing. But now that Ziggler came out
last night too, So you guys see like Russep getting
the belt and then him and Ziggler going at it
again because you know it is going to be wild,

(10:48):
and then Ziggill finally ziggl will I guess take it
away from him, maybe like roll Rumbull or something that's.

Speaker 1 (10:56):
A good uh, a good idea Jason of of where
this might go. It might not be Russev beating Sina
it could be Ziggler beating Sina as a way to
elevate Ziggler because they need to elevate a baby facing
Seena's absence. Sena by the way, for those who don't know,
he's taken off after helen a cell most of the
rest of the year. He was pulled from any advertised dates.
Rick Flair's going to take some of those dates, I

(11:16):
believe on the Europe tour, the holiday schedule typically a
little bit lighter. Sina asked for some time off. From
what I'm hearing, it's nothing ominous, but they're not saying
what it is other than I was told. It'll probably
come out some point and it won't be seen as
a real big deal, but who knows. But it's not
like a huge, you know, a huge story brewing. It
doesn't seem like unless there's some sort of a major

(11:37):
cover up and false rumors being planted. But he's going
to be gone for a couple of months, and so
Ziggler could win the title, and then Rusev could chase
the title, and that would add a little bit more
drama to if the wedding takes place, because Jason, then
you would stretch out whether summer Ray would end up
marrying Rusev, and of course by the time Rusev wins

(11:57):
the title, who knows what's happened between summer Ray and Zigler.
Some Marie may not even want to marry Russa by
the time he wins the title. I mean, they could
have a lot of twists and turns in this. What
do you think of that it's possible.

Speaker 3 (12:07):
I can't say I want to see Russef and Zigler
feud that much longer. I've kind of reached my limit
with that feud. But you know, maybe, like you say,
they're going to need to elevate a babyface at some
point with seeing of being away for a bit. So,
what is it like six weeks he's taking off essentially.

Speaker 1 (12:23):
Wood that's I mean, he's been cleared from about six
weeks of the schedule. I think I don't know if
I know about late December yet, if he's going to
be back by then or not. I'm not sure what
to ask you.

Speaker 5 (12:33):
For, uh.

Speaker 3 (12:35):
I mean, that's the only thing I know is he's
not marrying Nikki Bella, or at least I'm not putting
that out there if he is. So you're right, it's
not ominous at least from seeing his perspective, because I
think he's a wants to be a bachelor for the
rest of his life if you watch Total DVAS and
so I don't know if he's making a movie or
I have no idea what's going on there, but six
weeks seems to be the time for him, and I

(12:56):
think it's a good thing, you know. I mean, it's
not going to help WWE right now in the ratings,
but I think it's going to be good to have
John Cena take a break and get that little buzz
going when he does return. And I think maybe, you know,
if Russ does end up with the championship, maybe Sena
just gets slotted right back into a program with him
once upon his return.

Speaker 1 (13:16):
Let's go to our next phone call here on the
live cast and go next to Eric codes six for
six six or six. Please state your name in the
city you're calling from.

Speaker 6 (13:24):
Hi Nelson from Bronx, New York.

Speaker 1 (13:26):
Hey Nelson, thanks for Colin. What have you got for
chasing me?

Speaker 6 (13:29):
Well, I well, I got two questions. Well, the first
question is you know I will do you guys know
why the w w E and your opinion gets the
two point three ratings. Ever your Monday next, because I
have an opinion about it. If you want to hear
my opinions first.

Speaker 1 (13:44):
Yeah, yeah, give us an opinion.

Speaker 6 (13:46):
Well, my opinion is that, you know, I think, you know,
they treat their audience like myself and maybe you guys
you know, like like well, like we're not educated and
we're done, because you know, they treat guys like Wade
Barrett's Suzarro Golf, Niko russp Defel guys like them like
a joke, and you know, I like Sheemus and Randy Orton,
but I just kind of find their gimmicks while they're

(14:09):
they're you know what they do on TV boring and
Rock Lesler, you know, he doesn't get any new opponents,
either facing John Cena or the Undertaker or a big show.
And every Monday night, like last night's Raw, it was
to me, it was a really smooth fest. And I
watch it on DVR, like maybe I put it on
like nine o'clock and I'm like cass bowarding and I'm

(14:29):
like former sleep on it, and it's like they put
the same knockfense on every week. So what do you
think Vince needs to do to spice up Raw and
the w W. And you know, I think they should
build Czarro as the next face of the w W
because you know, like you just said, John Cena's gonna
be kicking time off. And I just think that right now,
they need to get their act together and the end,

(14:50):
you just start rebuilding as soon as possible. I mean,
I don't buy the excuse about Monday night football. So
I just want to hear what you guys have to say.
Then I have another.

Speaker 7 (14:58):
Question after that.

Speaker 8 (14:58):
Guys.

Speaker 1 (14:59):
Oh thanks, Yeah. With the New York accent, I feel
like I'm listening to a Pro Wrestling Spotlight radio show
from the early nineties Nelson, when John Arezi hosted that
show in New York and people called up, you know,
with similar questions, you know, what's what's wrong with wrestling?
How are we going to fix it? I'm having flashbacks
because we put the prosing Spotlight Show, something we put
up for VIP members a few times a month on average.

(15:21):
We're putting up shows from September of nineteen ninety one
right now, including a Jim Ross interview with Vintage Jim
Ross interview with John Aresi with you know, the question
being what can WCW do to better compete with WWF,
for what can WWF do to get out of the
dold rooms that the early nineties had them? And Jason,
this comes up, you know a lot wrestling. It doesn't

(15:41):
inevitably have to be as cyclical as it is because
the downcycle is often a result of mistakes and bad decisions.
But ratings wise, it's obviously a downtime the caveat We
talk about it all the time. I don't want to
go too repeat it too much, but there is about
a ten percent bump because the DDUR viewership that people
are cutting the cord USA is not as strong of

(16:01):
a network as it once was, even though that they're
still near the top or at the top, but just
overall viewership is down. There's a lot of there's a
lot of reasons that WWE could look at and go, yeah,
it's not us, it's the industry. It's a TV industry,
it's the entertainment industry. Thinks they're just changing and we're
just gonna have to accept the smaller slice. But Jason,
this drop off is sharper than other years, and I

(16:24):
don't think there's been some sort of acceleration in people
cutting the chord or dvring or choosing Hulu instead or
watching online. I don't think there's been this massive acceleration
of it. And even if there was, people if you
have a hot product, people want to watch it when
it's on live, and that's not happening. So DBR viewership

(16:45):
still isn't enough to make up for the for the
decreased interest in actually seeing things as they happen. There's
a reason the show is live. So anyway, a lot
of points Deeltson brought up there. Jason can react to
what I said or react to some of the things
he asked about.

Speaker 3 (17:00):
I think with Monday night football, I mean, it certainly
is a factor, but it's in the no more of
a factor this year than it was last year, and
so you're seeing a much more sizable decrease compared to
last year's numbers, and that that's frightening. And I think
three hours is a big problem. I think that makes
it more of a dB rble if that's a word

(17:21):
show for people where it's just it's it's a strain
and you can enjoy the football game live and then
speed through what you like with RAW, I think, you know,
really getting things on track for Vince McMahon is identifying
some younger talent to go with, and it's something we
talk about on a regular basis on the show. He's
just so stuck with these Attitude era stars, the Canes,

(17:44):
the big shows, and I think if you replace those
guys and not outright you can. There's certainly a role
for them in WWE, but there needs to be more
storytelling with guys like Cizarro and Neville. And I mean
Neville's now classified as a Leprechaun, you know, And so
I think there's plenty of good young talent available and
I think that's what people are clamoring for. And I

(18:04):
think that is that you're seeing that with the success
of NXT at the level it's at. I don't think
it's just a completely different audience or just you know,
a small niche. Triple Ake set it today in the
conference call. It's a niche, but it's a sizable niche.
And I think that once you get outside of that,
for the people who aren't watching NXT, just the regular
RAW viewing audience, I think there's a lot of those

(18:25):
people that if they started seeing a younger, fresher product.
They'd be engaged, they'd be up for it. They're just
getting repeat after repeat right now with a couple of
exceptions and then a lot of filler and a lot
of guide, and a lot of mid card talent, just
not really getting an opportunity to do anything other than
spin their wheels.

Speaker 9 (18:45):
Need an extra dose of positivity in your wrestling podcasts,
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Speaker 1 (19:51):
Yeah, there's not enough. I mean I talk about this
all the time on the VIP side of things, at
greater length than once a week here on the lab cast.
But I think WWE doesn't have enough wrestlers to fill
three hours who are on journeys or missions that fans
are either rooting for or against. You know, you have
a real defined mid card of guys who there's just

(20:14):
almost no hope that they move up the card or
down the card, or if they try to, like New Day,
by the time they get around it deciding to push them,
they're so damaged that there's a real headwind. It's hard.
It'd be hard to get Wade Barrett into a main
event right now with how long he has been in
the mid card. And I think that's the case for
a lot of guys. And that's why I kind of
think bringing in some new talent that's camera ready, that

(20:39):
turn you know, a turn key main event talent where
you turn the key, open the door, they walk in, Boom,
they're ready to carry a main event program. That's something
is speaking of the Bob Backlin book. That happened a
lot back when Bob Backlund was champion in the late
seventies and early eighties. You could take an established talent
from one territory they started run out of steam, they
go to another territory and they'd be fresh. And they

(21:01):
didn't spend three years putting talent that came in from
another territory in the mid card. And then when they
ran out of established main event guys because of injury
or retirement or burnout, then they didn't go, Okay, this
guy who's been on the mid card, who had been
jobbing out and not treating seriously for three years, now
we're somehow going to make fans paid to see him
in the main events. And WWE needs to kind of
I think they need to look at the way that

(21:22):
they promote that mid card and isolate a few guys,
pick out a few guys that they have kind of
in the undercurrent, who they're protecting and who fans are
watching going I want to see that guy against tougher
competition because he's winning all of his matches. There's too much,
even Stephen booking. And so if you have three four
guys on the mid card, but really upper mid card,

(21:46):
winning all the time, dominating, the announcers are putting them over,
you have them in waiting for when a top guy
runs out of steam or a top guy runs out
of opponents. I should say and need some fresh opponents,
but I think that they have their midcard talent and
so damage that. I think the more more short term
answers try to bring some other people in. And I've
written about that in the person Torch newsletter, talk about

(22:07):
it regularly on the Way Tiller Hotline on the VIP
side of things, with specific ideas. So yeah, I mean
I could have answered that six other ways because I
think there's a lot of things that they could be
that they could do to improve their ratings. And by
the way, viewership was up about ten percent last night
roughly we don't have the rating rating in yet, I
haven't seen it, but viewership Jason was up what about

(22:30):
forty fifty thousand. It was like three point three million
last week, three point seven million this week? Is that right?

Speaker 3 (22:35):
It I gosh, I don't have the number for me.
It was just a pleick. I mean, it didn't seem
like brock lesnar Oh.

Speaker 1 (22:41):
No, it was er Yeah, you're real, well it was.
It was three point three seven eight million viewers compared
to three point three even last week on average, so
they actually are off about seventy eight thousand viewers. But
really that is just a tick. I would expect that
to stay in the two point three range. And yeah,
with brock Lesnard Jason, that's not It's not like they
even have a guy who quote Pop's ratings at this point.

(23:03):
And it's tough when you know part of the part
of the problem, and you know, brock Lesner has been
really good at drawing network buys for big pay per views,
and the timing of having Brock is a special attraction.
When they've tried to get the the WW network numbers
up to over a million. It's been good to have
him around, no mistake about it. But there's a downside.
And the downside is you're putting him on a pedestal

(23:26):
pretty much above everybody else, and he's not around very much.
So sometimes Raw feels like The B Show and WrestleMania
and Summer Slammer, whatever show Brock is on. That's kind
of the A show or the A the A roster,
And when so much energy is put into those special
attractions and they are put on a pedestal, I think

(23:47):
that's another reason that viewers watch Ron go well, you know,
I've kind of been into John Cene or I'm kind
of not in John Scene, or I'm kind of into
Roman Reigns or Dean Ambrose. You know, you pick a
couple of the full timers, but then there's a big
drop off because the people who are headlining the really
big live events, they're not there every week, and in
a way that's a positive because they're not getting overexposed,
but they are a ways so much that I think

(24:10):
it does make Ross feel more seasonal than it ever
has been. And I think the ratings will go up,
not to three point five, but they'll go up this
wrestle Mania season because people know that's when the big
stars come back and the big matches happen.

Speaker 3 (24:21):
Well. And another scary part of the viewership numbers wait
is that that third Hour died again. I mean they
just they fell off the cliff. They did okay for
the first couple of hours, and then it's just I
don't know if it's fatigue. I don't know if it's
the lack of interest in the main event for a
second street.

Speaker 1 (24:38):
Football games helps, you know, I guess, Yeah, it was closer.

Speaker 3 (24:42):
It's certainly closer than expected. I mean, I was hearing
from Lions fans yesterday going, now, it's going to be
a slaughter, it's not going to matter, think their team
was going to lose. And yeah, it turned out to
be very close, and I can't believe it. We have
more officiating drama in the NFL.

Speaker 1 (24:54):
Good lord, I know. I let's go back to Nelson
for a follow up and then we'll move on to
this Carl Nelson not quickly. What else if you got
well all?

Speaker 6 (25:01):
I know if I can't wait for old school Row
in ten fifteen years with the stars to the way
they're building them up today. But anyway, what was your
opinion of the crowd reaction from Madisons regard Network special
because I tweeted you wait that the crowd seemed dead
when the Dudley's and Rock came out, and I thought
that the crowd would have really exploded. I mean, granted

(25:21):
it was a house show shown on network TV, but
the crowd looked to me like they were the air
was taken out of them. I mean, should the WWE
be concerned or not?

Speaker 5 (25:30):
I mean, you know, oh.

Speaker 1 (25:32):
Sorry, Nelson, Yeah, let's let's go. Let let me go ahead.
I accidentally put you on it, but let me go
ahead and go to Jason. Anyway, Nelson, I got the
gist of it. I've heard conflicting reports Jason on the
crowd reaction and MSG. I'm leaning towards right now based
on you know, eyewitness reports from correspondence, our listeners and
t tow b torch readers who were there saying, you know,
it wasn't they weren't you know, it wasn't a crazy
hot crowd like you know, punk scene of Chicago. But

(25:54):
it wasn't as bad as it came across on the
network that things just weren't miked really well. What's been
your take from all the eyewitness accounts and then watching
it yourself.

Speaker 3 (26:02):
Yeah, I think it was a bad weekend for crowd
micing because TNA felt the same way. There were times
when you could tell like the crowd was up for
certain things that it just wasn't coming through the speakers,
and you know with ww either typically better at that.
I don't know what reason there would be for them too.
I mean, we've seen them do plenty of shows where
the crowd was mic just find at MSG, so I

(26:24):
think in the building it probably comes across louder. There
may have been a little bit of miking issues, but
I think they board that crowd. I think they the
crowd went there feeling like, Hey, there's gonna be television cameras. Yeah,
you know, it's live from MSG, and it could just
be a house show, but maybe we'll get a title
change brocks there. You know, you never know what's going
to happen, and they pretty much established from the start

(26:47):
that this is just another show, and I think that
that doesn't bode well for them with future live specials.
I think there's always going to be an audience for them,
but I think you need to do something on whatever
that next one is to get people excited about that again,
because I was really let down on Saturday. I was
bored by that show.

Speaker 1 (27:06):
Oh yeah, And I think what WWE did is they
almost set people up for higher expectations. If I think
they gave people the impression was gonna be a bigger
deal than it turned out to be, even though they
would argue we tried to downplay if by not treating
it like a paper if you're not giving you a
full lineup. But I almost think with the net with that,
they should almost call it like a live look in,
where it's just sort of, you know, a bonus, Hey,

(27:28):
by the way, ww' is gonna be an MSG Brock
Lesner against Big show. If you're a network subscriber, you know,
check it out. You can see what goes on at
MSG for what is typically a non televised event that's
a special network thing, and lower expectations a little bit
more so people just thought, Okay, this isn't like a
pay per view, I shouldn't expect it to be. It's
a live look in to see what it's like to

(27:49):
see an MSG house show in that respect. With Chris Jericho,
with a cage match with obviously Lesnar, you would think
there'd be enough there where people would go, oh, yeah,
that was kind of a nice bone. But I think
ultimately because of the hype for Lesner's show, it started
to feel like pay per view hype. The last couple
of weeks, the expectations on what the show would feel
like and contain were raised. Yeah, I was. I don't

(28:11):
think anybody came away from that show saying I'm a
big or WWE fan. Well, I sho didn't say nobody,
But you know, I don't think it was a show
that that energized the fan base, and I think the
MSG fans. Yeah, he got to see brock Lesner, but
I was a little worried in watching it because now
a brock Lesnar wrestles Jason and it's pretty consistent that
people are saying, wasn't worth the wait? The show wasn't

(28:34):
that good. Like there was a time when Lesner came
out and it was just an adrenaline rush because he
was such a special attraction who wrestled so rarely. Is
that because Big Show was his opponent. Is that because
now he's been around a few years and is wrestling
more often, or do you just not agree and the
mystique is still there.

Speaker 3 (28:49):
No, I think some of the mystique is gone. I
think some of it is because he's a baby base
and so he doesn't fly off the handle. That sense
of unpredictability just isn't there. Right now with him like
last name when he's on RAW, I just assumed, Okay,
Hayman's going to talk and Brock is going to stand.
There is hoping for more. So we got a little
bit more with Big Show, but that's just not enough.
You know, there's not Brock lesnar throwing furniture or roughing

(29:11):
up the broadcast team. And I know he was a
babyface I think when he roughed up Michael Cole or whatever,
but I think some of that is missing right now.
And as far as the live special goes, if you
want it to be a house show, then just treat
it like a house show. Don't bring Brock in for that.
Keep the arena dark and people will be happy. But
when you raise expectations by bringing Lesner in, yeah, people

(29:33):
are going to want more than you gave them.

Speaker 1 (29:37):
We're about thirty minutes into the program, Jason, why don't
you take a moment to talk about your website and
your membership.

Speaker 3 (29:43):
Absolutely a lot going on the site today.

Speaker 1 (29:45):
Again, that's Audibletrial, dot Com, slash Pro Wrestling Torch. Jason,
what's one notable thing worth mentioning coming out of the
Triple H conference? Call anything surprise? Surprise you or jump
out as a special newsworthy.

Speaker 3 (30:01):
Well, I surprise myself by confusing the Great Mooda for
Jusian thunder Lagger, Like I complete moron. I'm not a
Japanese wrestling connoisseur by any means, but I you know,
with that, Yeah, exactly so. But I had a little
fun with that. But I would say, gosh, I mean
it was a little more notable than usual. I think,
I mean, he just got into Vince McMahon's take on NXT,

(30:24):
and I think he really wanted to send home the
message that Vince likes what he sees and it's not
like Vince is this hater of NXT. But I got
him to talk about the any potential developments with New
Japan Pro Wrestling, and oh gosh, I mean, there was
a lot going on there. I'm just kind of drawing
a blank today.

Speaker 1 (30:43):
Thanks for downloading today's show. Take it to the next
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(31:04):
Everything with Rich Fan and The Fix with Todd Martin
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So go VIP here in twenty twenty two and enjoy
all the benefits, all the bonus content and the ad
free listening experience. Pw toors dot com slash go VIP.
I saw the headline on your site that Charlotte is

(31:25):
saying that people who are complaining about the Divas Revolution
are just people who like to complain. That's a little
of notch.

Speaker 2 (31:31):
It's a little annoying.

Speaker 1 (31:32):
I mean, here, these people are rooting for the Divas
Division to be treated better on the main roster because
it's treated so well on NXT. And Tomorrow night with
a NXT takeover perspecion, we got the Women's title match
in NXT headlining, and you have Charlotte saying, ah, everything's great,
you know, because she's the champion. I guess, so maybe
she has a reason to be happy, but that seemed
like it's not going to endear her to the people

(31:55):
who are actually rooting for her and her cohorts on
the main roster to have that division and be treated
as something other than what Rod did once again this week,
which is treated as women are just caddy and can't
get along, And now we're filming the fact that women
can't get along and they don't have personalities other than
the fact that they just can't get along, and then
occasionally put them in the ring with each other and

(32:15):
they fight out over they fight each other, or the
fact that well, all women can't get along. That's the
revolution it's bringing. Yes, So I was a little disappointed
by that. I mean, maybe she's just trying to be
a company man and I would say company woman, except
WWE is featuring an iron Man match tomorrow night featuring
two women, So I guess man is gender neutral in WWE.

Speaker 3 (32:37):
Ah Huge covered that today.

Speaker 1 (32:39):
Wade, Oh what did he say?

Speaker 3 (32:42):
He said, they actually had a discussion about it, and
Alita was involved in that discussion, and she thought it
might be perceived as sexist to call it anything other
than an Iron Man match, and so that's what they
went with. Its just I don't know, I just kind
of threw my hands up and it just they did
discuss it.

Speaker 1 (33:01):
Well, hey, if a woman says it, then that must
mean it. They're there that they're off the hook for that. No,
it should be an it should be an iron Woman match,
because it's.

Speaker 3 (33:10):
We said, we're all we're all nerds for even questioning whatever.

Speaker 1 (33:15):
All right, well, let's go to the phone lines. Let's
go back to the phone lines again. You can get
full details on that, of course at progressing dot net
and poetorch dot com. Back to the phone lines, we go.
We got so many people, it's practice, man, it's like
the day after WrestleMania. How many people are on hold
right now? Let's go to aera code nine five one,
next nine to five to one. Please state your name
in the city or call it from.

Speaker 8 (33:34):
Hey, Wade and Jason, is Mike be from so I
get doing tonight?

Speaker 1 (33:38):
It's not Mike from where?

Speaker 2 (33:39):
Missed that?

Speaker 8 (33:41):
California?

Speaker 1 (33:45):
Yes, all right, go ahead.

Speaker 8 (33:47):
Question for you. I'm just tuning in a little bit
late today. I don't have to get to cover the
John Seen a time off thing.

Speaker 1 (33:54):
We did quite a bit, Yeah, we did quite a bit.

Speaker 8 (33:56):
Actually fantastic. What did I have one little wick in
the regards to what is there any possibility that Vince
is throwing you know, the hill, Mary. We're gonna Sina
and give them a couple of months off and then
bring them back. I mean, that's the only thing they
could said I can think of. They're doing right. We
give them time offified from him just needing help me.
Is that a possibility or no.

Speaker 1 (34:16):
So you're saying Vince's throwing a hill Mary by forcing
Sena to take time off again, your connections a little ross.
So I might have missed a detail in there.

Speaker 8 (34:24):
No, I apologize what I basically, I got this question
from the Bluce Mitchell audio yesterday. You guys were talking
about over the weekend about how John's taking time off,
et cetera, et cetera. And I'm wondering, you know, you
guys were talking about what they could do to potentially,
you know, to increase the ratings or even look at
increasing the ratings. You guys weren't really sure what they
could do, and I'm wondering if this is something they
could do. You know, Actually, turns, I know who's you've

(34:45):
been talking about.

Speaker 1 (34:46):
That's yeah, Mike, that's the word I'm looking for. Yeah,
I just didn't hear the turn I wasn't sure if
you said turned Sena, Yeah, cool, I'll put you on
that background noise and uh, I'll throw to Jason.

Speaker 4 (34:55):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (34:56):
Any chance that Sina takes time off and things kind
of reshuffle little bit and then he comes back for
any reason as a heel only.

Speaker 3 (35:04):
If they can somehow quickly manage to establish his replacement.
I don't see it. You know, you could tell last
night from this segment with the breast cancer survivors that
they desperately want Roman Rams to be that guy that
eventually takes John Cena slot. I don't think even Vince
McMahon is delusional enough at this point to think that
Rains is ready to be that guy. And so until

(35:26):
there is that guy, I just I think it would
be a mistake to turn John Cena. And I'm someone
who over the years has said I would like to
see him turn at some point. There have been various
points where I felt like this is the time and
it could work. I don't feel like now is that time.

Speaker 1 (35:39):
W Yeah, I'm with you, and I don't think it's
going to happen. I think Vince would probably cling more
to Sina than turn him, cling to him as a
lead babyface more because ratings and viewership is down. All right,
let's go to five five nine and then on deck
sixty six, five five nine. Thanks for holding. Please state
your name of the city you're calling.

Speaker 10 (35:56):
From anyway, This is Steve from Fresnee.

Speaker 1 (36:00):
Thanks for Colin. What have you got for Jason to me?

Speaker 10 (36:02):
Hey, uh, you know, I'm out here on the West
Coast and uh and I only hit the West coast
feet of Raw, and uh so I kind of peek
ahead at that James's and uh just kind of get
a lineup of what's going to be. I don't want
to read it and spoil myself, but I kind of
give an idea of what the lineup is. And for
the first time, I made like a choice to go

(36:24):
ahead and just skip Raw and just watch like all
the NXT team matches on the network. And uh, but
I mean, it's just it's just it's so I mean,
everybody said that you guys have gone over and it's
just I don't know. I just want to voice my
opinion too. It's just so scale right now. I don't
see any foreseeable changes that can be quick. It's gonna

(36:46):
have to be a philosophy change. It's gonna take a
little while to turn everything around, you think, yeah.

Speaker 1 (36:53):
I mean, Steve we you know your your voice is
not alone. I mean the fact that ratings are down, Jason,
you know, viewership is down. I would think would shake
the tree a little bit in terms of the status
quo way of doing things, but we just haven't really
seen that yet. The lack of anything really being done

(37:14):
differently almost makes me think, Jason, that Vince is convinced
this has to do with other things other than his
brilliance and his roster, and that he has enough excuses
built in that he's not going to change things. I
just don't maybe it's not in vinced to do it
at this point either, and he's just gonna hold steady
and not really do anything until January.

Speaker 3 (37:34):
I'm not sure how to look at last night's show,
because that's certainly one way of looking at the Other
way of looking at it is that he brought in
rock Lesnar, which didn't seem like something they had planned,
so it looked like he was reacting through the ratings.
We got the setup for the eventual resep and Summer
Ray wedding. We got New Day suddenly becoming World Beaters
at the end of the show. I just look, you know,

(37:55):
are they throwing things at the wall right now and
seeing what sticks with I don't.

Speaker 1 (38:00):
I've gotten the sense that they're pretty high on New Day.
Vince McMahon doesn't tweet very much, but boy did he
love tre Bleach and Steph and he dancing with New Day.
You know that was that was a tweet he put
up last month. I don't. I think what we saw
last night, if the ratings had been in the you know,
two point six two point seven.

Speaker 2 (38:16):
Range, I wouldn't.

Speaker 1 (38:17):
I would think that's the show we would have gotten,
like I made. That's my opinion. I didn't look at
last night's show with the Russa Summer Ray, wedding teas
and New Day in the main event and think, wow,
you know, Vince is really changing things. I think the
voice and the narrative and the tenor is still there
as it's been. I don't now. Granted, sometimes you got
to pick your time the right timing, and maybe it's
gonna be after Helen a Sell in a few weeks

(38:38):
that we see some new people show up or you know,
really shake things up. Obviously, you know, I'm excited, not
and not for the reasons of oh I hate John
Cena or I think they should, you know, get rid
of him, or he shouldn't be a top guy. Regardless
of how I feel about that, I'm excited to see
a Raw program without John Cena, if it really is five, six, seven,

(39:00):
eight weeks where there's no John Cen on Raw, because
it does put it opens up a spot on that
show that normally a lot of creative attention would go to,
and now somebody else is going to get that attention.
And you know, if you're the middle child and you
feel like you're not the favorite of the parents, and
then suddenly the youngest and the oldest go away to
summer camp, you're sitting around getting a lot more attention

(39:22):
than you used to get. I think that might happen.
There might be some middle children on this roster was
seen out who get a little bit extra shine and
a little bit extra attention from the creative team. Delf
Ziegler might be one of them, or Jason. In four
or five weeks, we're gonna be sitting around going this
is intolerable. They haven't done anything. There's nothing to fill
this time out, and you know they're trying to headline
with Seamous against Randy Orton and on raw, So we'll see.

(39:45):
But I'm a little more I'm I'm glad Seen is
going away because if nothing else, it increases the odds
that they give some creative attention to somebody else.

Speaker 3 (39:54):
All Right, I agree, I just fear wayed that it's
going to be the Roman Rand show.

Speaker 1 (39:59):
Yeah, well, maybe they need to Maybe they need to
try one more time with him to either get him
going or learn that it's not going to be him.
You know, in a way, it's sort of pulled the
band aid. Let's let's figure this out soon. Because I'm
not sold on him yet, but I'm not convinced he
can't be a top star. But I just don't. I mean,
my pretty strong inclination is he comes up short in

(40:21):
too many categories right now to be somebody that they
can just get hot, get red hot. I just don't
think it's in him to be a red hot baby face.
I think he could be a great heal, I don't
think it's in him to be a red hot baby face.
So but if they need to try one more time
to get it out of their system, then maybe this
is a good time to do it.

Speaker 3 (40:38):
I mean, I guess they can find out sin Chris
Wim at this point, and I'm with you. I mean,
I just don't think it's his time. I think there
are still deficiencies there. Hopefully he can grow into the role.
But I think they're I think that's what they're planning
to do well seen as a way that that's my
best guess as to who gets the bulk of the
extra television time YEP.

Speaker 11 (41:02):
In twenty twelve, NXT transitioned into the developmental system and
ultimately the brand you see today. On the Torch VIP
podcast NXT Eight Years Back, we'll be taking a weekly
look at this page in NXT's early history.

Speaker 12 (41:17):
Join Kelly Wells and me Tom Stout from PWT Talks
NXT every Saturday as we go eight years back to
the day to track NXT's rising talents and why they
did or didn't work out, exclusively for PW Torch VIP members.

Speaker 1 (41:33):
All right, six to six is up now, and then
on deck nine, five, four and eight one five, six
to six. Please state your name and the city or
calling from.

Speaker 13 (41:40):
HI. This is David from Houston.

Speaker 1 (41:42):
Hey, David from Houston. What have you got for Jason to.

Speaker 13 (41:44):
Me, Yeah, I kind of have two questions for you, uh.
For the first question would be, with the ratings being
solo and WWE constantly saying how they're entertainment quote unquote,
do you think there's any viable chance that they could
be off TV because of all low their ratings is
and just the disinterest from the fan base in general.
And then I have a second question after that.

Speaker 1 (42:06):
Sure, yeah, I'll put you on hold. We'll address that
one real quick, Jason, Roz still other than NFL, and
you know, one or two other specials on cable, a
top five program, top six program on cable television, So
you know it is. It isn't if Vincent Man's trying
to talk USA Network out of being in a panic

(42:26):
or NBC Universal, he can say, look, there's there are
other than the NFL. There's maybe one or two other
shows that are consistently better than US week to week
to week. It's so in that sense, Jason, I don't
think that they're anywhere close to being cut off. Although
we saw with Monday Nitro they were one of the
top rated shows on TNT, although they had certainly declined
from their peak but it was just too expensive relative

(42:49):
to the rates that they could charge advertisers. Advertisers didn't
pay top dollar for the demographics. Nitro drew and WSW
was was losing tens and tens of millions of dollars
lessly due to really bad management leading up to the
decline in ratings. And so, you know, a high rated
show in the top twenty cable shows can be canceled

(43:10):
if other things are afoot. Jason, I don't see that
happening anytime soon with Raw.

Speaker 2 (43:15):
Now.

Speaker 1 (43:15):
If they drop down to one point seven and December
and one point three in January, of course, that's an
extreme situation and a whole new conversation, and they probably,
you know, try to blow up the contract. I'm sure.
I suspect there's something in there that protects USA from
paying top dollar for awful ratings.

Speaker 3 (43:32):
Yeah, it's not going anywhere. I mean, USA is bringing
SmackDown on board next year, so they're obviously they're still
strong partners together. I think it would take a lot
for that to change where I did. What I do
worry about is, hey, next time that television deal comes up,
and you know, USA can point to the declining ratings
and a lot can change between now and then, but

(43:53):
it's it's not like WWE setting the world on fire.
So it doesn't mean that Raw is going to not
have a network home or anything like that. But it's
just from a financial standpoint, you have to worry a
little bit if you're Vince McMahon that, Okay, we didn't
get what we wanted last time, and what are we
going to get this time around? If the numbers continue
to trend the way they are.

Speaker 1 (44:13):
Yeah, all right, So David question number two, top number two.

Speaker 13 (44:17):
Yeah, Well, me personally, like I don't really watch Raw anymore.
Being a graduate student and working a full time job,
I kind of have to pick and choose what it
is I do for my leisure, and Row currently is
not one of them. That being said, do you think
maybe in the pipeline they might try to add something
to Raw? Because as it is a three hour show,
do you think maybe they could add NXT as like

(44:38):
a pre show for the first hour to kind of,
I guess, present something new to the show and then
maybe get fans to come back or get new fans
that might be like, oh that's something new and interesting.

Speaker 1 (44:50):
Sure, yeah, I'll put you on hold. We'll address that
one real quick, Jason, Row. Still other than NFL, and
you know, one or two other specials on cable, a
top five program, top six program on cable television.

Speaker 2 (45:02):
So you know it is it isn't.

Speaker 1 (45:06):
If Vincent Man's trying to talk USA Network out of
being in a panic or NBC Universal, he can say, look,
there's there are other than the NFL. There's maybe one
or two other shows that are consistently better than US
week to week to week. It's so in that sense, Jason,
I don't think that they're anywhere close to being cut off.
Although we saw with Monday Nitro they were one of

(45:27):
the top rated shows on TNT, although they had certainly
declined from their peak, but it was just too expensive
relative to the rates that they could charge advertisers. Advertisers
didn't pay top dollar for the demographics, and Nitro drew
and WSW was losing tens and tens of millions of
dollars needlessly due to really bad management leading up to
the decline in ratings. And so you know, a high

(45:50):
rated show in the top twenty cable shows can be
canceled if other things are afoot. Jason, I don't see
that happening anytime soon with Raw. Now, if they drop
down to one point seven and December and one point
three in January, of course, that's an extreme situation in
a whole new conversation, and they probably, you know, try
to blow up the contract.

Speaker 2 (46:10):
I'm sure I.

Speaker 1 (46:10):
Suspect there's something in there that protects USA from paying
top dollar for awful ratings.

Speaker 3 (46:16):
Yeah, it's not going anywhere. I mean, USA is bringing
SmackDown on board next year, so they're obviously they're still
strong partners together. I think it would take a lot
for that to change where I did. What I do
worry about is, hey, next time that television deal comes up,
and you know, USA can point to the declining ratings
and a lot can change between now and then. But

(46:37):
it's it's not like WWE setting the world on fire.
So it doesn't mean that Raw is going to not
have a network home or anything like that. But it's
just from a financial standpoint, you have to worry a
little bit if you're Vince McMahon that, Okay, we didn't
get what we wanted last time, and what are we
going to get this time around? If the numbers continue
to trend the way they are.

Speaker 2 (46:57):
Yeh, all right, so David question number two, Talk number two.

Speaker 13 (47:02):
Yeah, Well, me personally, like I don't really watch Raw anymore.
Being a graduate student and working a full time job,
I kind of have to pick and choose what it
is I do for my leisure, and Raw currently is
not one of them. That being said, do you think
maybe in the pipeline they might try to add something
to Raw? Because as it is a three hour show,
do you think maybe they could add NXT as like

(47:22):
a pre show for the first hour to kind of,
I guess, present something new to the show and then
maybe get fans to come back or get new fans
that might be like, oh, that's something new and interesting.

Speaker 2 (47:34):
Thanks David.

Speaker 1 (47:35):
Yeah, they're not going to put an NXT on before
Rogerson because if Vincent matthought NXT was the right way
to do things and that talent could draw ratings on
USA Network nationally, if he felt they were ready, he'd
call him up to Raw. I mean, it's just that simple,
and he's not going to put one show that contrasts
with his style. There's a reason he does things his
way because he thinks it's the best way. There's a
reason the Raw talent is on that roster because he
thinks it's the best raw talent.

Speaker 2 (47:56):
I just don't see it chasing. Do you see more
of a chance than I do?

Speaker 3 (48:00):
No, No, I don't. I something gimmicky and NXT title
match own or aw something like that dedicate an actual
hour of WWE WWE Raw to NXT. I just I
think it's unrealistic. I wouldn't mind seeing it myself. Wait,
I think it would give a NXT more exposure, would
take away some of the underground feel. And know the

(48:22):
thing is, though, way don't you just assume it would
be that broadcast would be right from the same venue
as RAW. And that's where the trouble begins for NXT,
because then Vince mcmannon, Kevin Dunner all over it.

Speaker 1 (48:32):
Oh yeah, NXT ceases to be NXT when it's not
at full sale or in a more intimate setting. And
really one of the reasons people like NXT is because
it's it does have that underground feel and as soon
as they have to start booking it to draw ratings
as opposed to just be a good product. And I
know that suns contradictory, but really NXT is put out

(48:54):
there with no pressure. They get to tell the stories
at the pace that they think is the best pace
to tell stories, and they're not worried about drawing ratings.
So once you have to start worrying about drawing ratings,
they're not gonna have the patience or discipline necessarily to
milk things at that right pace that slow brew to
leave you to build anticipation and leave you wanting more.

(49:16):
They won't take as many chances because they'll be worried
that if they take a chance of somebody young and new,
that if it doesn't work out, they'll lose viewership, and
then USA Network come down on them and Vince will
be upset.

Speaker 2 (49:26):
It just changes everything.

Speaker 1 (49:28):
And I just think realistically NXT ceases to be what
people love if it were put in a position to
have to draw ratings as a lead into a two
hour raw. Let's just make it simpler. Let's make raw
two hours. I mean that you know, yes, I understand,
I'm gonna go a lecture for people go, oh, you
don't understand amount of money that third hour draws, and
ww you can't afford not to have it. I just
think when that third hour is destroying, is destroying a

(49:50):
lot of the foundation of what makes.

Speaker 2 (49:53):
What you do work.

Speaker 1 (49:54):
You just gotta you have to consider the possibility that
maybe that other revenue isn't worth it because it's doing
too much damage otherwise, you know, And I mean two
point three is not good. And I just don't think
they're at two point three if they have a tight
two hour show with a little bit more of a
rotation to talent, so you're not seeing the same guys
get overexposed every week. And yeah, I think they're in

(50:16):
a better spot with two hours than they are having
been at three hours for a few years now, right, Jason, Well, yeah.

Speaker 3 (50:22):
I mean the Nier said the same thing. I'm sure
you know WCW felt the same way about adding that
third hour. I also, I think I'm starting to see
other signs of WWE business decline as not just the TV.
I've noticed the last couple of weeks. Last week it
was they were promoting the smack you know, SmackDown. Tickets
were on sales for tonight show, and you know, it's SmackDown, SmackDown.

(50:46):
It's usually a like crowd. But then last night they
actually advertised their tickets are available in Chicago, of all places,
which is usually just a slam dunk for them. So
I mean that worries me a little bit when they
start doing that. I mean it's something I think they could,
they should always do way, but the fact that they don't,
and all of a sudden, out of the blue, they
are it makes me worried a little bit.

Speaker 1 (51:07):
Yeah, no, I agree, And I think when people say, well,
they're still doing well X, Y and Z and all
these other categories, I think ratings are the first thing
to go because they're the most elastic. They're if you're
a network subscriber, first of all, you're more of a
hardcore fan. It's going to take more to drive you away.
If you go to house shows, you've already bought the
tickets months ahead of time.

Speaker 2 (51:27):
In most cases.

Speaker 1 (51:27):
Obviously, WWE keeps track of the walk up and that
might be alarming to them, but most people buy tickets
ahead of time. Now that's just the way arena touring
entertainment works now. So to me, the ratings are the
ones where people are watching and they haven't paid for anything,
they don't have to plan ahead, and they can decide
not to watch or tune out mid show, and that's happening.
That's the proverbial canary in the coal mine. The canaries

(51:50):
die before the human beings do when the oxygen gets thin,
and that's the sign for the coal miners to get
out because they're going to be passing out next. I
think the ratings are the canary in the coal mine,
And now we're starting to see it, you know, like
you said, Jason, perhaps playing out with attendance, and then
you have to think, well, did they move undertaker lessner
up and add this MSG special because network numbers there's

(52:13):
been an alarming drop off on that too. You know,
you don't want to get to a point in no
return in terms of people turning out, tuning out the
product because you're stubborn and sticking with your ways and
promoting the same talent. You know, wayde Barrett telling the
same heal comments at ringside and shame is coming out
and saying I should be your mascot. I mean, it's
just at some point you got to think we could

(52:34):
be doing better. We could be doing better with this
TV time that we have. Even if you're stuck at
three hours ten minutes, there's better things they can do
with that. Anytime you're watching ww E Raw or SmackDown
or AEW Dynamite in particular, send us an email if
you've got thoughts on the show or a topic you
want us to address or a question for us. Wade

(52:55):
Keller Podcast at pwtorch dot com. Wade Keller Podcast at
p W torch dot com. If there's anything else going
on in pro wrestling that you want us to address
on our main podcast during our Mailbank segments, that same
email applies Wade Keller Podcast at pw torch dot com.
We invite that interaction. Let us know what you think
of what we're saying, and let us know what you

(53:15):
want us to talk about and ask us specific questions.
Wade Keller Podcast at PW torch dot com. All right,
ninety five four, you're up next, and then eight one
five for that nine five four state to name it
where you're calling from?

Speaker 5 (53:30):
Name is Bruce from Hollywood, Florida.

Speaker 2 (53:32):
Hey, Bruce, things for calling? What have you got for us?

Speaker 14 (53:35):
H Yes, I got one comment in a question uh raw.

Speaker 5 (53:41):
Stephanie McMahon, is she wow?

Speaker 14 (53:44):
Was she a big babyface tonight last night?

Speaker 5 (53:48):
Wow?

Speaker 6 (53:50):
She was?

Speaker 1 (53:50):
Both odd numbered segments she was a heel and even
numbered segments. She was a babyface and I hope that's
clear to everybody.

Speaker 3 (53:57):
Well, and I angry the entire time.

Speaker 15 (54:00):
Yes, yeah, yes, and I'm just afraid.

Speaker 14 (54:03):
Now they got the student ge Coleman's thing. Come up,
She's going to be acting the same way. She's then
acting like, Okay, I'm acting like a heel and now
I'm in Now I'm in this average not the advertisement,
but the thing about oh, breast cancer or you know, the.

Speaker 2 (54:22):
The charity thing she quoted.

Speaker 1 (54:27):
She quoted Twitter co founder Biz Stone on this earlier
this year, back on March twenty eighth. She said she
quoted him at a business conference. This is not her quote,
but she typed it out because it moved her so much.
Philanthropy is the future of marketing. It's the way brands

(54:47):
are going to win.

Speaker 2 (54:50):
Now.

Speaker 1 (54:51):
When that's your attitude and that's your language, and you
think that's something that's good to say publicly, to put
out there, you're so immersed in this corporate world, this
corporate mentality, you have lost touch with the way that
corporations actually promote charity. I mean, the NFL is more
way more subtle about it. It's something that's done in
passing and they don't stick their commissioner on on their

(55:15):
Twitter page holding up a bracelet like Stephanie did last month.
It's that quote again. I mean, it's jaw dropping. Philanthropy
is the future of marketing. It's the way brands are
going to win. You're saying we do good things for
charity because it's going to help It's marketing and it's
going to help our brand win. And I get she's saying, well,
but our heart's in the right place. We're using the

(55:36):
power of our brand to do good for people. But
the choice to put John Cen out there in Roman
Reign speaking on behalf of it, and how much patting
of themselves on the back that they do, it's brand building.
Now they're sending people to wwe Shop, ostensibly to buy
merchandise so they can support the massive salary of the
head of the Susan G. Coman Foundation, which certainly is

(55:57):
a controversial topic. See them Punk sounded off on that
on Twitter. Are talking about what a controversial charity Susan G.
Coleman is. But they're sending people to w W Shop
to shop. But it's WWE Shop. You know, they're not
sending them to Susan G. Coleman or WWE charities. They're
sending them to a storefront that they want you to
buy stuff fat regularly. This is marketing, Stephanie revealed it,

(56:18):
and it has a stench to it as a result
of it. It doesn't feel the way charity should, which
is you're doing things magnanimously and quietly for a good
cause and sending people out to buy merchandise when you
give proceeds to this charity. Is one way to directly
get money to them, but it is not as magnanimous
and selfless as I think that they want people to

(56:41):
think it is. Anyway, Jason, any reaction to that. Brusus
comments on Stephanie.

Speaker 3 (56:47):
Well, I would like to see them tone it down
in terms of the number of charities they're working with
now for their own good. I mean, I'm all for
good charitable efforts and things like that, but it just
feels like there's a new cause every week or at
least monthly. They're just it's my eyes are starting to
glaze over now. They're just they're they're they're so just

(57:10):
entrenched with pushing their charitable efforts that at some point
you just kind of become numb to it, and I
think it hurts the fundraising efforts on top of it, Wade.
When you just there's always something new, people just naturally
are going to zone it out, like oh this one,
this time, it doesn't pack the same punch that it
did when you were working with one group or two
groups and it was spread out. Now it's just non stop,

(57:32):
and as far as Stephanie's king.

Speaker 1 (57:33):
It seems like a weekly telephone sometimes it does.

Speaker 3 (57:37):
Yeah, I mean, and it's just it's all over the place,
and you will not be surprised. They didn't play it
on RAW. I don't believe, Wade, and if they did,
it's proof of my point that you start to just
kind of zone out. But on the pre show they
had the video of their their annual Susan G. Coleman thing,
And who do you think the first person in the
video was Wade. You get one guess and the other

(57:58):
two don't count three guesses in the first you don't.

Speaker 1 (58:00):
Come yep, yeah, yep, I know. I mean, what can
you say? I mean, it's it's she just doesn't have
self awareness when it comes to this, or she doesn't care.
But I I just yeah, it's it's too selfish.

Speaker 3 (58:12):
And I mentioned this on the show once before. The
NFL is actually slowly but surely pulling back on their
dealings with Susan G. Coleman. They're they're kind of shifting
and I remember reading an article around this time last
year that they're shifting it to more of a military
thing rather than working with that group. I mean, you're
still seeing the pink, but they've really pulled back. I mean,
it's just they're not driving at home nearly as much

(58:33):
as they used to. And so I don't know if
it's it's because of the charity itself or if they
have you know that there's other reasons for it, But
I find that interesting.

Speaker 2 (58:41):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.

Speaker 1 (58:42):
All Right, eight one five is promise you're next, and
then seven to eight after that, eight one five stage
name and where you're calling from?

Speaker 16 (58:49):
Hey, this is Jake M from Aurora.

Speaker 2 (58:52):
Hey, Jake, thanks for calling. What have you got for us?

Speaker 16 (58:55):
You guys talked about Roman not being with WB wantson
right now with him answering sena is open challenge before
Sina League and just having a great match with them
obviously why it would probably cost him it, but would
that help Roman at all get back up or is
giving away a match like that a future WrestleMania match
that too desperate of a move.

Speaker 1 (59:19):
Probably too desperate of a move, Jason. And to say
they should have a great match is assuming they're capable
of having a great match too.

Speaker 3 (59:27):
That's the first thing that jumped out at me too.
I don't know, you know, Sena definitely has really good matches,
but it has so much of it is he's working
with you good really strong talent. Rains needs to be carried.
I mean, I think they can have a passable match.
I don't think it's going to be nearly as bad
as like Bray and Roman the first time they wrestled
on rawback in the day. But I that's you know what,

(59:50):
there's so few matches that they preserve that they protect.
It's it's not a bad idea, but that is one
that I just just in case. I don't even know
if it's ever going to be feel WrestleMania worthy, but
somewhere down the road is going to feel pay per
view main event worthy, at least of another pay per view.
I sit on that one.

Speaker 1 (01:00:05):
I would sit on it too. Yeah, that's my take,
all right, thanks Jake seven one eight, You're up next.
Please stay your name of the city you're.

Speaker 7 (01:00:11):
Calling from from Mike and Brooklyn B.

Speaker 1 (01:00:15):
Good Mike, what have you got for us? And make
it quick? We're trying to get the wood calls today.

Speaker 7 (01:00:19):
Okay, you guys think like character driven wise, you know,
like the shows down that, like they could focus a
little bit more, you know what I mean, have the
stuff matches, but also more character development, you know from
everybody mid caught up. That's my first question. Kurt Angle's performance,

(01:00:41):
you know on Sunday on down for Gordon, do you
think you know, w W bringing him back and using
him sparringly like maybe like how they use Robin and
Damn like like would you think that'd be a good,
you know, a good situation.

Speaker 2 (01:00:55):
That's it today, jas you want to.

Speaker 3 (01:00:58):
Take us healthy, Kurd Angle. They could pass the medical
testing and they didn't have any concerns about any potential
reapse or anything. Sure, I don't know that he can
pass their medical testing. I think he needs to prove
to them as well, even if he could, that he's
in a good place. And he says publicly, I think
it's two years sober, you know, and I'm not even

(01:01:19):
gonna question. I don't know, so I don't know if
they're going to take him at his word for it.
But you know, I wouldn't mind seeing Kurt come back
under the right circumstances, But I just I think they
would be better at protecting him than TNA does.

Speaker 13 (01:01:34):
You know.

Speaker 3 (01:01:35):
Fortunately, I don't think there are any moons also off
the top of cages or anything over the weekend from Kurt.
But he can, he can be his own worst enemy.
And if i'm WWE, I just don't know that I
take the chance. And wait, I don't think they're ever
going to I think you'll see him end up in
their Hall of Fame, but I don't know if you're
ever going to see Kurd angle back in a WWE ring,
even if he could pass their testing. I just don't
think they want to take that risk of having a

(01:01:56):
former Olympic gold medalist, you know, die or something medically
happens on their watch.

Speaker 1 (01:02:02):
That move that the Northern Lights that Sina took from
big E during the break that they showed in slow
motion was scary. Scena barely talking in time. That that
shook me up watching it, I was just like I'm
glad it turned out well, I know it turned out okay,
but man, I don't want to see Kurd angle in
the ring, not talking time and end up with his
neck which has been surgically repaired and certainly is vulnerable,

(01:02:25):
lead to a terrible disaster. Yeah, if they're not Lett
Daniel Bryan in the ring without incredible amount of precaution,
I don't see Kurd angle coming back.

Speaker 17 (01:02:41):
I'm Kelly Wells, host of p w T Talks NXT,
the longest running NXT podcast anywhere. Join me along with
Nate Lindberg, Bruce Lee, Hazelwood and special guests live every
Tuesday night, just minutes after NXT, where we covered the good,
the bad, and the ugly on the way to becoming
a star in WWE. Check out live on YouTube or
stream later wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 2 (01:03:11):
What was what was Mike's first comment, Jason, do you remember?

Speaker 3 (01:03:15):
I can't. Maybe you want to bring him back on.
I don't remember.

Speaker 1 (01:03:19):
I don't even know there is all right, micro quick
three four words? Don't restate it with six sentences. What
was your first point three four words triggering?

Speaker 7 (01:03:27):
Oh no, I was saying, you know what A couple
with some of the kick ass.

Speaker 2 (01:03:31):
Character I got you, I got ya, you know what.

Speaker 1 (01:03:33):
That's why it came back to me as he was
talking to Jason character development. You know that's something Vincer
soon d far I've talked about a lot that they
they during the Monday Night Wore era, they did a
lot more character development. I don't know that that's really
a problem that there's just a bunch of bland guys
on the other card who we don't know anything about.
I think it's more the way the structure in which
they're booked, where they're not really wrestling for anything. It's
just even Steven, wins don't mean anything. Losses don't mean anything.

(01:03:56):
Although I did like Byron. I think it was Byron's
action last night saying that Sinkara losing derailed his hopes
of becoming an icy title contender. I thought that was
a nice little injection of like a sports like analysis
of the impact of somebody losing.

Speaker 2 (01:04:13):
I think they need more of that.

Speaker 3 (01:04:16):
I do too. I would I kind of disagree that
with your assessment that like character development isn't an issue.
I mean, Wade Barrett is the generic King Neville. I
don't know what he is. He's a superhero kind of cizarro.
He's just a guy who wrestles. Well, you know, there
are a lot of guys out there that could use

(01:04:37):
that character development. I think that ed Arar and Vince
Russo did a good job when it came to developing
those undercard characters, paying more attention to the mid card
than Vince McMahon ever does. And I just I don't
know that he's ever going to wait. I think he's
just two set in his ways at seventy years of age.

Speaker 1 (01:04:53):
Yeah, yeah, all right, let's go next to Ericode nine
to nine and fur that N nine things holding state
name and where you're calling from?

Speaker 15 (01:05:04):
Yes, got friend New York.

Speaker 2 (01:05:05):
Hey, Jonathan, what have you got for us?

Speaker 15 (01:05:08):
Well, uh, well I gotta come. And I feel like
we don't get like any more superstars, like new superstars,
like a little refreshment for a product. I think I
think he's gonna keep going to the same thing because
like we get the same thing every week, but different time,
Like we get the same matches. One day we're hearing
the first hour, another day we're here in the second hour.

(01:05:29):
Another Monday we're hearing the third hour. So as soon
as we keep getting that, and then we don't get
like new rivalries like new fuse, Like for how long
this feel has been going on with the with Wade
and and and and Roman range and then now you know,
like you know what I'm talking about, Like we keep
saying the same few because there's nobody else coming up,

(01:05:52):
Like we gotta go, like we got this guy who's
running into circles. Yeah, you're you're right, I mean, you
know that's embarrassing.

Speaker 2 (01:05:59):
Yeah, sticks with feuds for a very long time.

Speaker 1 (01:06:02):
And when you don't have that sense that somebody wins
a few matches in a row and now they move
up the roster, somebody loses a few matches, they move
down the roster, that sports like environment just isn't there,
and it makes it a lot harder to make matches
seem like they count, uh you know, and yead to
that that it's a three hour raw and tow ours
a SmackDown. It's just too much TV time to fill
with the roster depth that they have, and that's a

(01:06:22):
problem too.

Speaker 2 (01:06:23):
Jonathan, what's your question for us?

Speaker 15 (01:06:26):
Okay, do you guys think that Day is trying to
kill Big Show? Because why they haven't why they haven't
we brought Lens is doing like all the although like
Daniel Soup is it like that? And I agree with
you you said about yourn Sena with that with that
move that was that was scary, Like that was when
I saw it, I was shot.

Speaker 1 (01:06:45):
Yeah, they're not trying to kill Paul White in real life.
I'm pretty sure about that.

Speaker 3 (01:06:52):
But yet there.

Speaker 1 (01:06:53):
Yes, that would be quite this. You know, let's shoot,
it's a shoot, brother, they're trying to kill me. It'd
be bad for business, and they like him, so no,
that's not what's going on. But they want to get
Brock over as a kill, you know, as a killer
pun intended. You know, they want they want people to
think that Brock has incredible strength tossing around Big Show.
So imagine what he's going to do to the Undertaker.
It's putting as creating a sense that Undertaker is in jeopardy.

(01:07:16):
And so I mean that's why they're doing it. And
Big Show is near the end of his career and
he's a big guy, and so yeah, they're using his
size to to try to keep that that sense that
Brock Lesner is superhuman in a way. So yeah, that's
all that that is anythink that Jason.

Speaker 3 (01:07:31):
Way, do you think do you think we've seen the
last Big Show brock Lesner match? I hope so I
don't too something kills me.

Speaker 1 (01:07:39):
We have not Wow, I don't know wh what context
it would mean anything again, but yeah, I mean they
get it.

Speaker 3 (01:07:44):
You know you didn't mean anything this done.

Speaker 1 (01:07:46):
I know well they you know it's tried to make
it mean so it'll mean less next time if they
do it. And again, you know, there's no hope that
Big Show is going to get on a hot streak
and become relevant. He's just the guy who was destroyed
a couple of years ago in the way that he
was portrayed on Raw as this pathetic guy who had
no job prospects and didn't save his money and invested
in a bad shopping mall and needed to just cater

(01:08:07):
to Stephen McMahon. He cost Daniel Bryant a championship match
because he put his job ahead of doing what was right.
I mean, he's not a good babyface. He's a better heel.
He could be a good baby face. His characters is destroyed.
He could be a better heel, but he's just he's
a guy who just gets beat up in people chant
please retire at so it's it's it's rough, all right,
Let's go to Uh. I don't think I said who

(01:08:29):
was next. Let's go to a nine to one four
next and then six to one six on deck nine
one four? Thanks for holding state your name and where
you're calling from? Hey guys gone from Stanford.

Speaker 2 (01:08:37):
Calling Hey Sean, what have you got for us?

Speaker 12 (01:08:40):
Uh?

Speaker 1 (01:08:41):
Yeah, just uh if you don't mind switching gears for
a second to Tomorrow night with NXT. Do you think
that Finn Balor will turn on Samoa Joe? And if
he does, you think that's a good idea?

Speaker 2 (01:08:51):
Yeah, good topic. I'm glad he brought it up, Jason.

Speaker 1 (01:08:55):
Yeah, I mean that's certainly been a discussion point out
there that something's going on. You know, something's going to
have to happen with Joe and Finn. And I know
that there's people I've talked to who think Finn Balor
is going to surprise people who have only seen his
NXT work at what a good heel he can be.
What's your take on where they're going with that and

(01:09:16):
where they might land after Tomorrow Night?

Speaker 3 (01:09:19):
Yeah, I don't know who ends up heal who ends
up babyface. I mean, there's been the popular theory that
Finn was the guy who actually attacked Adaoa Tommy, when
you know, all signs pointed to Kevin Owens, but Finn
was there as well. I mean, I just I know
that Finn can be a great heel. Well, I don't
know that I mess with what you have going with
him as a baby face at NXT. He's just so

(01:09:39):
right for that role as the lead baby face there
Samoa Joe. I mean, I do think that's the next program.
I don't know whether there's an all out heel turned
by one of these two or if it's one of
those they let the fans choose who to side with,
and it's just they have a disagreement and they're really
not pushing people in any direct. But I'm intrigued. It

(01:10:01):
wouldn't surprise me either way. I guess if they did
a turn, I guess if I had to choose, I
go with Joe as the heel. But again, it's just
because I just think Balor is so perfect in the
role that he's playing. But at the same time, if
he is WWE main roster bound, it might be a
way to do it, you know too, you want to
have that top baby face there. So if it's Balor

(01:10:23):
going up before Joe, then maybe it makes sense to
turn Finn now and then you know, by the time
he gets to the main roster, he just a baby
face again, you know, always forgotten. But you leave Samoa
Joe in place as the top baby face of the
NXT brand.

Speaker 1 (01:10:37):
Yeah, And I love the subtle, the subtle look that
Samoa Jo gave to the belt on NXT a couple
of years ago at the end, Like, I love that stuff.
I love when they reward you for paying attention and
that they don't hit you over the head with with
facial expressions and announcers telling you what's going to happen
or what's not going to happen.

Speaker 2 (01:10:53):
So I like that. I'm looking forward to it. I mean,
I I.

Speaker 1 (01:10:57):
Yeah, I'm hesitant to mess with Finn Balor, but if
that's what it's gonna take to get him on the
main roster, because the thought is, well, we need some
strong heels for Roman Reigns and John Cena, and that's
what it's gonna take to get him on the main roster,
then fine, you know, go that route. I guess I'd
rather Finn Balor commit as a babyface. I think all
the things that people list is as deficiencies with Finn
Balor in terms of charisman promo skills can absolutely be

(01:11:19):
used as a positive. I mean, I think he can
stand out as an not as in every man, because
there is something sort of something, you know, kind of
mysterious about him and you know, just you know, he's
not just you know guy from Chicago.

Speaker 2 (01:11:34):
You know he has I don't.

Speaker 1 (01:11:35):
Want to say exotic, but there's something a little more
enigmatic to use the Jeff Hardy term about him that
I think works, and I think it can be focused
in a positive money drawing way that he's kind of
the the more low key normal guy who's a great athlete,
you know, a good looking guy, but in an untraditional way.
I think it can absolutely work as a babyface. I
think every time people list his detriments, I just think, Wow,

(01:11:57):
to me, I see those every single thing is that
they say it's a negative about him. I see it
as a positive, and your reaction indicates you believe the same.

Speaker 3 (01:12:05):
I do you know I'm watching the WWE twenty four special,
or the NXT panel or the video package that they did.
It was like a special dedicated to Ben Balor leading
up to his title win. He's not the type of
guy that's going to go out there and electrify a
crowd with the stand in the ring and talk for
twenty minute promo. But boy, you get him in a
video package and he's just being himself and it comes

(01:12:27):
across so well. There's no reason to mess with that.
If anything, WWE needs to change the way they do
things on top because at NXT that style is working.
You connect with him even if you don't know anything
about him. But you get to WWE's ing roster, they
don't do enough of those video packages. They don't. You know.
It really goes back to accentuate the positives and hide

(01:12:47):
the negatives. And that's a guy that you could really
accentuate the positives by doing some of those on raw.
But I don't know what they will. Wait, it's just
you know, go talk for twenty minutes.

Speaker 1 (01:12:56):
Now, I know, I know, all right, a good topic.
I'm looking forward to that. We're about to go to
a commercial break. Why listen to commercial breaks when you
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(01:13:19):
VIP ratestar as low as four dollars in ninety nine
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To reach yourself to a streamlined, ad and plug free
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to four seven eight, next four to seven eight.

Speaker 2 (01:13:37):
Thanks for holding. Please state your name and where you're
calling from. You real from Georgia, prow What have you
got for us?

Speaker 5 (01:13:43):
Okay, I got a comment in one question. My comment
start off with this, I really don't like that they
I understand they want to talk about the cauncer and
stuff like that, but I I hate that they put
that as a segment of Full of TV. I think
they shouldn't even show packages or put that on TV.
That's said something they should highlight on the website and

(01:14:06):
stuff like that, because it just caused so many problems
and one of the big problems it caused with me
was to put that nail in the coffin in my
eyes for somebody like Roman Rains that's ever been main
event guy or a person that leads your company, because
it's just too many deficiencies. Not great on the mic.

(01:14:27):
Having approved on that, he's more of a spot best
type of guy with fear the whoa, and.

Speaker 1 (01:14:34):
I don't call it a spot fast. I call it
a big spot guy. He just kind of does a
few things that you're big power moves. But go ahead
with your question, Robert on time.

Speaker 5 (01:14:42):
And my question and my question, my question is to
Jalina is leaving, where do they go and do you
see them moving somebody up like being ballet? Since I
don't swearly see any replacement, I see that they're going
down the usual trying.

Speaker 1 (01:14:59):
To make a bit of got you, Yeah, Jason, I
think that Sena being gone, as we talked about earlier,
opens up the possibility they're just going to give a
harder push to Duelf Ziegler.

Speaker 2 (01:15:09):
I don't bet you know. There's a chance that.

Speaker 1 (01:15:11):
James Storm comes in and just shot right to the
top of the main roster, or they promote Joe or
Finn Balor. I mean, I'm I'm intrigued with that possibility.
But it's very possible, Jason. It's just more time for
Dulf Ziegler and more time for the people who are
already getting time.

Speaker 3 (01:15:27):
That's the thing whin we've seen them call people up
from developmental it's been and to really give them aggressive push.
Kevin Owens comes to mind, Ray White. Eventually they get
fed to John Cena. Have that? Am I forgetting on
any one?

Speaker 18 (01:15:39):
Way?

Speaker 3 (01:15:39):
Have they really made an effort to go all out
with the baby face that they've called up?

Speaker 2 (01:15:44):
No, No they haven't.

Speaker 3 (01:15:45):
So yeah, and I just don't. I mean, i'd like
to before I can think that's going to happen.

Speaker 1 (01:15:52):
I think Sammy's ain may have been someone they were
going to and then he got hurt.

Speaker 2 (01:15:55):
Sure, yeah, yeah, all.

Speaker 1 (01:15:57):
Right to three one? Oh what's your name? And where
you call it from?

Speaker 15 (01:16:02):
Hey, guys, as it go?

Speaker 19 (01:16:03):
And this is Tom from a Los Angeles A doing good.

Speaker 2 (01:16:07):
Tom, thanks for calling. Good for Megaun. What have you
got for?

Speaker 7 (01:16:11):
Not too much?

Speaker 19 (01:16:13):
Just one quick quick thing that I wanted to bring up.
I think that if you look at the w over
the last leg, well, I guess you could go all
the way back to two thousand and two. You know,
they've they've instituted this whole even Stephen of a booking scheme,
which quite honestly does multiple things. One it insults the

(01:16:35):
intelligence of a viewer.

Speaker 13 (01:16:38):
And two.

Speaker 19 (01:16:40):
You know, if you look since then, the only person
that they've really brought in and brocketed right to the top,
I would say, would be a Randy Or do you
do you think this is a result at all of
them essentially trying to prove to new talent one that
the Dove is bigger than any talent and too do

(01:17:01):
you think that this is a reaction to the success
of the Rock and a Lesner, most notably a Lesner
who you know they brought in, rocketed right to the top.
He started having a demands, eventually left the company I
believe within like a year and a half and didn't
return for twelve years and had a success outside of

(01:17:21):
the actual sport. I mean, did you think that it
stems back to that? And if not, why do you
think that they're doing it like this?

Speaker 7 (01:17:27):
Oh?

Speaker 1 (01:17:28):
Good topic and no, I definitely agree, Tom. I think
that WWE is in a position where or is promoting
their brand before their wrestlers, and I think that you
get that impression from Stephanie and her tweets. It's about
the brand, you know, with vinsic Man and wall Street,
it's about selling the brand. It's about McMahon Royalty, the
McMahon family and the WWE brand. I mean, I keep

(01:17:52):
saying it over and over, but that is where their
efforts go.

Speaker 2 (01:17:55):
Right now, Susan G.

Speaker 1 (01:17:57):
Coleman is being promoted so because WWE corporate circles wants
to look like they're doing good things with the power
that they have, and there's obviously some good that comes
from that, but it's sort of they do it because
well it's a thing that corporations do, and you know,
they hope Roman Reigns and John Cena get a little
rubb from it, you know. So I I think that

(01:18:19):
the history that they have with hul Cogan or Brute,
you go back to Bruno. You know, when Vince was around,
and there was a shift away from Bruno because Bruno
just he had enough. He didn't want to work full
time anymore. It wasn't you know, money wasn't the be
all end all to him. He was burned out and
so all of a sudden they had to go and
you know, Superstar Graham got hot, but then Bob Ackland
was the chosen one by Vince Senior. And then you

(01:18:40):
go to Hulk Hogan and some battles at Hulk had
with Vince over who gets more credit for the success.
I don't think Vince ever liked Hogan, thinking he was
bigger than the brand Ultimate Warrior. They had problems with
Sean Michaels, they had problems with halland Nash jumped, a
bunch of other people jumped and left Man on the
brink of going out of business.

Speaker 2 (01:18:57):
Russo and Ferrara in the midst of the.

Speaker 1 (01:18:58):
Mondy Night War is they left, you know, without giving notice.
So it's just yeah, on and on and on and
then yeah, brock Lisner, there's so many examples where people
it's you know, it's sort of human nature. You get
turn someone into a big star, and then they think
that it's all they're doing. And I think the McMahon's
and the brand have been built up so much that Jason,

(01:19:21):
they don't want to ever put somebody in a position
to seem like they're bigger than the brand, unless I
think you said at the top of the show, you're
just mister mister WWE John Cena. You know, they feel
good about him, and so they're willing to promote him,
but it doesn't go much further than that, and I
think they end up hurting their brand ironically, by not
promoting wrestlers as being as big.

Speaker 2 (01:19:40):
Or bigger than the brand.

Speaker 3 (01:19:42):
It definitely hurts and kind of ties into the last
question too. I don't know that Vince is ever going
to feel secure calling up an NXT guy and just
truly shooting him to the top is more than just
kind of a two three month program like they did
with Kevin Owens. I think he doesn't have that connection
with that that Hunter does, and so maybe someday when

(01:20:02):
Vince is out of the picture, you'll see more of that.
But in the meantime, you know, it's I don't know
that even if Triple H felt like, let's say, Finn
Balor was the right guy to do that with, I
don't know he's being able to sell Vince McMahon on that.
I think Vince is going to want to see it
for himself, see how that talent does on the main roster,
get a feel for that talent, and so you know.
I hope I'm wrong. I hope hell, I hope it

(01:20:24):
starts right away and they call somebody up and try
to make a big splash. I think it would help
if it were the right piece of talent, but I
think it's a long shot.

Speaker 2 (01:20:32):
Yep, all right, very good.

Speaker 1 (01:20:34):
I apologize to all the colors on hold. We're going
to wrap up on that note, and Jason, you and
I are going to move to the VIP after show.
If you're on Hold and you're a dot net member
or pw TOWRS VPP member, you can email us your
topic and we'll cover that perhaps in the VIP after show.
So my apologies to three three seven, three four seven, seven,
three to two, who else here?

Speaker 2 (01:20:53):
Eight six two.

Speaker 1 (01:20:54):
Everybody on hold, apologize not getting to you. Just had
a lot of callers today. Give Pat McNeil call tomorrow
Land the guest of Pat McNeil tomorrow at the usual
start time on Wednesday, and then again Bob Backlan my
guest scheduled for Thursday, seven Eastern, sixth Central four Pacific.
Former WWF champion Bob Backlan my guest on the live
cast at a special start time on Thursday. Start emailing

(01:21:17):
your questions in now PW Torch Live cast at gmail
dot com. That's PW Torchlivecast at gmail dot com. Also
check out PW podcast dot com if you haven't yet again,
that's pwpodcasts dot com. With written summers going on in
MMA every day at mmatorch dot com. Both PW torch
dot com and mmatorch dot com customized for your PC,

(01:21:41):
your laptop, your tablet, or your telephone your mobile phone.
That will do it for me for today, thanks to
Jasonpoulofprogressing dot net. Thanks to all our callers and all
of our listeners until next time back tomorrow. Pat McNeil
with Lancehoyt Wade Keller signing offcast.

Speaker 20 (01:22:12):
Are you a nostalgic wrestling fan? Do you want to
hear about shows you haven't seen in ten, twenty, maybe
even thirty years. Well, I have the show for you.
I'm pwtorch dot com contributor Frank Pettyanni, and since December
of twenty twenty, I've hosted Pro Wrestling Then and Now.
Together with a rotating chair of co hosts. We go
back and review old shows from top to bottom, talk

(01:22:33):
about where the wrestlers were at the time. And compare
what's taking place now to what took place. Then you
can hear this along with other shows as part of
your PW Tortch VIP membership with exclusive podcasts just for
members compatible with the Apple podcast app. Visit pwtorch dot
com slash go VIP for details and sign up form.

Speaker 1 (01:23:00):
All right, we're now in the VIP after show portion
of the PW Torch live cast on Tuesday, October sixth,
two thousand and fifteen. Jason, if I could weed out
you know screen, I guess if we had a call screen,
it'd be nice of people saying some of the same
things over and over. That'd be nice with callers, but
it does kind of tell you something about you know,
that that the viewer, the listeners of our show are

(01:23:24):
feeling the same frustrations, no matter where in the country
they're from, no matter what week they're calling the show,
a lot of the same frustrations. I think this is
an interesting time. I'd rather it be interesting in different ways,
but when ratings are dropping and your top star is
taking a couple months off close to it, it can
be an interesting you know, holiday season. I guess leading

(01:23:46):
up to the Royal rumble hype.

Speaker 21 (01:23:49):
Yeah, it's it's a very strange time. I mean, this
was a big weekend on paper, with WWE's MSG Live
special and then tena's biggest pay per view event of
the year and maybe their only pay per view live
pay per view for some time, we'll see, and it's
just there's apathy regarding the product for both, it seems.

(01:24:11):
And I don't know what's gonna shake WWE out of
their funk, TNA's issues or TNA's issues. But I mean,
there were a couple of times today with the callers,
I think maybe even the first one, somebody asked about
what we would do to shake things up, and I
just felt like saying, listen to last week's show. But
you know, it is just kind of a people are frustrated,

(01:24:34):
and rightfully so. And I don't know what. Like I
told you earlier, I don't know what to make it.
Last night's Raw was whether that was throw something, throw
things at the wall and see what sticks, or if
that was just their idea of staying the course.

Speaker 18 (01:24:47):
I'm not even sure what to make of it anymore.

Speaker 21 (01:24:49):
I expected something bigger than what we got last night
on Raw, more so than New Day or powerhouses now
and well and a wedding that seems to be the
the big thing coming out of those are the big
things coming.

Speaker 18 (01:25:02):
Out of Raw and the wedding.

Speaker 21 (01:25:03):
We'll do a rating for him, I assume, but it's
certainly not a long term solution way no.

Speaker 1 (01:25:09):
And I think I mean, I'm fine with Vince McMahon saying,
all right, it might take a while for people to
take it seriously, but we got to start diversifying. Who
are the number of people who are who are credible
opponents for our.

Speaker 2 (01:25:20):
Established top stars.

Speaker 1 (01:25:21):
And if he wants New Day to be credible, and
he starts with Big E and they he starts to elevate.

Speaker 2 (01:25:28):
Them, and then I'm fine with that.

Speaker 1 (01:25:29):
I think New Day have have earned a higher spot
and I think that they're entertaining, but they need to
get that edge to them. I use the public enemy
example in ECW A lot. You know, Johnny and a
fly by Rock a rock and Johnny Grunge did comedy,
but there was also it could just turn on a dime,
They could just flip into a sinister street street tough mode.

(01:25:55):
And I don't know that New Day have it in
them to that degree, but that's something for people to
take them seriously that they're going to have to establish that,
you know, and maybe Biggie is the route to that
show that Biggie can compete with Sina and they start
to want to be taken more seriously.

Speaker 21 (01:26:10):
Yeah, I don't think you can have it both ways.
I think right now they're trying to have New Day
stay true to what's gotten the act over while also
trying to give them in ring credibility. And I just
I think you have to choose. I like your idea
of just in general giving them an edge. That was
the thing that jumped out of me last night was Okay,
they do this, and they're telling us it's kind of

(01:26:30):
a power shift or whatever the words they were using,
and there's Xavier Woods playing his trombone, and I'm just like,
this isn't nothing has changed. It's just you're forcing New
Day in a different way. And I think you need
to choose between the two. I don't think they can
continue to be the lighthearted comedy guys and be taken

(01:26:51):
seriously as this badass trio. I think they really need
to pick a different direction, kind of set a new
course with these guys. I'm Okay if they do, try
to give them a little more juice, but the comedy
needs to stop. And you know it, it's just it's
it's it just didn't click with me the way I
think it should have, given the way the announcers were

(01:27:12):
laying it on so thick at the end about how
strong New Day is now.

Speaker 1 (01:27:15):
Yeah, yeah, it's it's tough because I don't know if
New Day minus the trombone and the interaction with each other,
you know, I did, I got I got a kick
out of Xavier, who he's a smart guy, you know,
in terms of his delivery and the line he comes
up with, you know, his reaction to to saying to
you know, when Stephanie was mean to them, and he's like,
I thought you liked us. You know, It's like it's
what everybody was thinking, and I'm glad that he said it.

Speaker 3 (01:27:37):
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:27:37):
I like when when the wrestlers say what the viewers
at home are kind of thinking they should be saying.
So there's there's something there. But I don't know if
you take away the comedy, if they're still the New Day.
But I don't know how they become more serious acts
if they are doing comedy if they're doing the same
ratio of comedies. So it is a challenge, and it

(01:27:57):
means maybe they're not the top choice to be elevating
at this point. But you know, Vincent men does seem
to like them. All right. Let's shift to Mike from
Mike from Louisiana, and he says, if T and A
is indeed off Destination America in a few months, I
have to negotiate with other networks. What do they really
have to show other networks where another network would want

(01:28:18):
to bring them aboard. Because Jason, what's the latest? It
sounds like they're on Destination America through the end of
the year, maybe a couple weeks into January.

Speaker 2 (01:28:25):
There's there probably.

Speaker 1 (01:28:27):
Or for sure at this point taping some TV in
India to kind of fill out the shows, although we
don't know what they'll use to fill out the shows
in the meantime. Apparently they still have some unaired footage.
It's going to be a mess. It's going to be
hard to sell another network if the ratings go down
because they don't have compelling first run footage to air
during this October November December stretch.

Speaker 21 (01:28:46):
Yeah, I'm surprised that they're not taping television or maybe
they'll announce it at the end of the month, because
they will have television cameras there for that one night
only series taping that they're doing at one of the
shows in Louisiana. You'd think they just turned one of
those into a TV taping. I don't know what they're
airing this week apparently. You said they apparently have some

(01:29:08):
first run matches, but could they really have enough to
get them through until even that if they were to
tape at the end of the month. I just can't
imagine that they do. And so the thing I sell
them on is, hey, we went to an inferior network.

Speaker 18 (01:29:24):
Look at the numbers we did for Spike TV. Sugarcoated
a bit.

Speaker 21 (01:29:27):
You know, obviously went to the better numbers that you
did back in those days. And I'm not saying it's
going to work, but I think that's the only real
choice they have way is to point to numbers like
they were doing at their peak and hope for the best.

Speaker 1 (01:29:39):
Just got an email press release from e saying that
Total Divas will begin production on season five following last
week's season high finale reaching one point six million total
viewers counting TVR viewership and that they are adding Mandy,
the runner up on the most recent season of Tough Enough,
to the program.

Speaker 2 (01:30:00):
It says they will she will.

Speaker 1 (01:30:01):
Bring her own flavor to the already dynamic group and
looking to prove she belongs amongst the veteran divas. Plus,
with Nikki Bella recently losing the championship title, the cast
members are all vying to claim the title of Diva's Champion.
It's just I guess they're cast members. I mean, I
guess that term can be used, you know, in quote
reality TV. It just sounds kind of weird calling wrestler's
cast members because of the history of this business, not

(01:30:23):
wanting to use that term for TV characters.

Speaker 21 (01:30:26):
But yeah, well let me let me jump in on
that real quick. Because she was known as Amanda on
Tough Enough. She was the blonde who was the rightful winner,
but the win with Sarah Lee because it was a
fan bode thing, right and you know, so she had
there's some talent there. I think she'll fit in nicely
on a show like that, because you know, I think
it's what they want. I think they want that cattiness

(01:30:49):
on that show. At times, and so I think she
brings some of that to the table. But the thing,
the other thing that came out was that Naomi put
out there that they've been bumped from the show. She
and Jimmy who so, so it looks like Amanda is
taking her place. And I'm not quite sure why, because
Naomi was one of the few likable people on that
show back when I was watching it. The rest of

(01:31:10):
them just you kind of wanted them to go away
or have bad things happen to them.

Speaker 1 (01:31:14):
Well, then that's why you shouldn't be You shouldn't be
nice and affable. You have to be hated and villainous
and stir things. Yes, yeah, yeah, So anyway, I just
thought i'd bring that up. I mean, it's it's been,
it's become a nice franchise for WWE that yes, the
series is surviving.

Speaker 18 (01:31:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:31:30):
As far as Teenagles, oh yeah, I don't know really
a lot what they have to sell on another network
on unless they blame Destination America for the drop and
point out what they did on Spike, you know, I
would It's it would be intriguing if Spike TV were
willing to take another look at them and you know,
go all right, as long as you're willing to do
it for less money, we're willing to. Uh, you know,

(01:31:55):
we're willing to bring you back. I don't know, it's
it's it's a story to watch. But you know, other
than Bound for Glory kind of getting them back on
the radar, they just haven't been on the radar all
that much these days.

Speaker 21 (01:32:06):
And you know, I mean, there's a new TNA champion,
and there may be another new TNA champion, and it's
just like there's not much buzz since.

Speaker 18 (01:32:14):
We started the show.

Speaker 21 (01:32:15):
Today they put out a video with Matt Hardy relinquishing
the TNA title due to the injunction that the Easy
three character filed against him in court over the finish
of the Bound for Glory show. So you had your
new champion and Matt Hardy, and it was a feel
good end of the show. I thought it could have
been done a lot better than it was, just a
better long term storytelling rather than just kind of cramming

(01:32:36):
it all into one week. But now you have this,
and I mean, I don't I guess it probably goes
back to Easy three weight. I don't know how they're
going to do it, but I just don't get the
feeling that there's that many people out there that really care.

Speaker 1 (01:32:49):
Yeah, I mean it generates some news. It gave Matt Hardy.
I mean it is Hardy considered a champion or are
they actually reversing the decision.

Speaker 21 (01:32:57):
Well, he relinquished the title because he felt like it
was the only way that the people could have a
title belt. He just released a couple of minute video
and so I guess the idea is that, I mean,
he looked good. He looks like he's, you know, the
ultimate company guy and saying that he's going to beat
EC three the next time they get a chance. TNA
the thing they put out. So they'll have a statement

(01:33:18):
on the status of the title tomorrow. So I don't
know if they're gonna have a tournament or if it's
just going to go back to EC three. I don't
know how they're going to pull this off, but I'm
guessing it's because they really don't have any new footage
with Matt Hardy in the ring with the championships.

Speaker 1 (01:33:32):
But I was wondering, what, Yeah, they have like some
footage of EC three with a belt, and then they
realized we got to use.

Speaker 2 (01:33:37):
This footage to fill out TV.

Speaker 1 (01:33:39):
So we did the title change, but we have to
before Wednesday night get the belt back around EC three's waste.
But then you know, you just have the anouncer's double
over commentary. The next handful of weeks of Impact could
be It could be weird, clumb Yeah, clumsy and weird.

Speaker 2 (01:33:53):
We'll see.

Speaker 1 (01:33:59):
You don't have to wait for the way Keller Prog
Wrestling post show to find out what I thought of
Monday Night Raw and SmackDown. Each week, you can check
out my reports that are updated live throughout Raw and
SmackDown at pwtorch dot com.

Speaker 2 (01:34:11):
My written report will.

Speaker 1 (01:34:12):
Tell you what's happening in detail in case you missed
the show, and it will also analyze key segments and
give my random thoughts quips on what I am watching
as it airs. So check it out every Monday night
and Tuesday night at pwtorch dot com. That also applies
to wwepayperviews. I cover those live at pw torch dot
com with a detailed written report with star ratings, and

(01:34:34):
of course you can find other TV reports from other
contributors to PW Torch such as nxt ROH, Impact Wrestling
and more. Check it out. Pwtorch dot com your first
stop for TV and pay per views written reports.

Speaker 2 (01:34:56):
All right, Patrick for Detroit says two quick questions.

Speaker 1 (01:35:00):
It does already agonizingly long rog over the three hour mark,
but on pay per views they cut us short fifteen
minutes early. Second, what happened to contenderships? It seems like
they draw names out of a hat like Can or
Charlotte instead of building legitimate threats to title chases. Do
you think if they institute in a ranking system like
the NCAA or USC that would give shows more purpose
instead of coming off like a bad porn parody with

(01:35:22):
just the story a bad porn parody.

Speaker 2 (01:35:25):
All right, the rankings.

Speaker 18 (01:35:27):
Isn't one of those?

Speaker 2 (01:35:28):
Yeah, yes, okay.

Speaker 1 (01:35:30):
The ranking systems have been tried on various companies and
bookers just tend to lose interest in them. They don't
want bookers don't like their hands tied actually having a
book a finish that would correspond to that wrestler moving up.
The rankings are down the rankings based on a win
or a loss. It handcuffs them because finishes are booked

(01:35:51):
based on telling stories and building characters, but that doesn't
always coincide with who you want to be in the
title picture, So it just ends up being kind of
a pain that said, I'd I think it obviously would
add some meaning to matches if winning led to moving
off the rankings and losing went to moving down the rankings.
It's just it's not really a serious conversation. It's not

(01:36:12):
a conversation that you should expect WWE to take seriously
because Vincent Mann just has never looked at things that way.

Speaker 2 (01:36:18):
He and his you know, inner.

Speaker 1 (01:36:20):
Circle don't look at WWE as a show that should
become more sports like in its presentation of the way
it plays out. It's more about what we saw with
Summer Ray and Russev. So I just don't think he
thinks it would be worth the hassle to have to
worry about the contendorship rankings while he is deciding who
should win between two wrestlers, when he's just trying to

(01:36:40):
tell a story.

Speaker 21 (01:36:42):
And TNA tried it with and maybe they're still doing it.

Speaker 18 (01:36:46):
I don't even know.

Speaker 21 (01:36:46):
But when they moved to Destination America, they introduced that
top five and it seemed like it was something they
were excited about for a couple of weeks and then
it was just something that got snuck in on the
show on a quick graphic like WWE would do to
sing their praises about, you know, some viewership numbers or something,
and it really didn't seem like it was going anywhere.
And isn't that kind of the trend wid whenever somebody

(01:37:08):
does introduce these, they just they don't last. I would
like the idea. I would like it. I mean, just
if wrestling in general was more sports like. But you're right,
I don't see Vince McMahon ever doing it.

Speaker 1 (01:37:20):
His first question as far as why rog gos past
three hours and pay per views go shorter because of
pay per views or network specials, there's no extra money
in going longer, and so they and they don't want
to run over if they can help it, because there
are people watching on pay per view, the traditional pay
per view where there is a window where the show
might get cut off that they ran over, so they
can't run over even though most people are watching on

(01:37:41):
the network now and they don't get extra money for
running over, so there's no incentive with rob they get
extra money by going along. It's the largest viewership they
typically have lately. The third hour has been dying, but
the overrun is a time when traditionally, going back to
the late nineties, a lot of people tune in to
see what's going on at the top of the hour.
It doesn't always lead to a boost and ratings for

(01:38:02):
the follow up show. I'd be fine with 'rog going
back to more than fine with ROG going back.

Speaker 2 (01:38:07):
To three three hours sharp.

Speaker 1 (01:38:10):
It's you know, it's anything that tightens up the show,
I think it would be better.

Speaker 18 (01:38:14):
I do too.

Speaker 21 (01:38:15):
And you know, even if we get to the day
and age where there's no such thing as WWE pay
per views, it's all in the network, I think you
still have to be careful. I think they did go
over with one of their post shows when they were
having those after the pay per views. The reason you
have to be careful of that is there's West Coast
viewers and if they if they turn on the show
at the beginning, you know, for them, Yeah, they could

(01:38:37):
all of a sudden, you're spoiling the pay per view
for them or the live specials. So I would even
avoid that. Even if it does become completely network exclusive.

Speaker 1 (01:38:46):
Right and you have direct TV, I think they start
the replay a half hour after the top of the hour,
but I think cable starts it at the top of
the hour sharp. I think that's been my experience with
it is that, Jason, do they does Direct TV start
the rep? Well, they doesn't matter a DirecTV, but.

Speaker 21 (01:39:01):
I think they start to replay. Well, you know, it's
been so long since I paid attention. I was gonna
say I think they started right away, but I'm not
quite sure.

Speaker 2 (01:39:09):
Yeah, all right.

Speaker 1 (01:39:11):
John from Seattle VIP member former Raw viewer, wants to
know if WWE continues to antagonize their audience since they
don't seem interested in changing their formula. Does ROW drop
below a two point zero before twenty sixteen? Jason, if
I haven't looked at the calendar to see what the
holiday type schedule is for RAW relative to I guess

(01:39:31):
mostly Christmas, but in New Year's.

Speaker 18 (01:39:33):
I think Christmas is later in the week this year.

Speaker 1 (01:39:35):
Yeah, but you know that typically there's a drop in
the rating. Is there a chance I think it would
only be a holiday edition? Well, who knows. I mean,
they've they've dropped down to two point three a couple
of weeks in a row, so you know, it looks
like so why not why they could go two point
two and two point one. The next thing you know,
they're they're bordering on it on a regular week.

Speaker 2 (01:39:54):
Boy, that'd be scary.

Speaker 1 (01:39:55):
I mean, I thought under two point five would change
things and shake things up and it The fact that
we're having a conversation about a one point nine or
a one point eight is astounding to me, and it
should be alarming to WWE. I don't think they will.
I think the people who are sticking around probably are
the diehards who it's going to take longer to.

Speaker 2 (01:40:16):
Get them to go away. But who knows. Jason, how
about you?

Speaker 1 (01:40:18):
What are the odds of a holiday or non holiday
show dip and blow two point oh?

Speaker 21 (01:40:22):
I think a holiday show is a strong possibility. I mean,
for instance, they're coming back here again to Target Center
for that holiday week show, and I without even knowing
anything about the business, as soon as they announced, and
I'm like, I'm not going to that because our holiday
shows suck. They're terrible. Second year in a row they're
giving it. They're having it at Target Center. Last year

(01:40:42):
was ho ho Hogan. I don't know what it's going
to be this year, but I want no part of it.
And I do think the audience, Russov, it might be yeah.
I mean, you know, people pick up on things like
that too, But it's just I think a lot of
it too depends on what big Monday night football game
pops up. And I haven't even looked ahead on the
schedule to see if there's and it may even be

(01:41:04):
too soon to tell everybody if there's a potential Monday
night showdown game. Generally you know the Sunday night game
is bigger, but you just never know how that schedule
is going to work out, where what looked like a
ho hum game when they've made the schedule is suddenly
a huge game that could really be a big blow
to WWE.

Speaker 18 (01:41:23):
Especially if business is down.

Speaker 21 (01:41:24):
I don't know that they fall below two point zero completely,
but I do think they're running dangerously close now, way
to an hour dipping below that mark. I mean at
two point one last night for two point one million
viewers last night for the third hour and some change,
but you're trending downward, it seems so if that happens, Wait,

(01:41:45):
is that going to be enough to really startle Vince?

Speaker 2 (01:41:49):
I would think so.

Speaker 1 (01:41:51):
I mean, of course it should, but it's Vince, and
I think applying rational reaction. An expectation of a rational
reaction is over what we should expect.

Speaker 2 (01:42:01):
From vinsic Mann at this point.

Speaker 1 (01:42:02):
Yeah, I mean he's always been you know, intriguing, curious, enigmatic,
volatile personality. I think, you know, way more so now
than ever, even though he's not on TV showing that.

Speaker 2 (01:42:15):
Side of himself.

Speaker 1 (01:42:16):
So yeah, he should, but I'm just not sure that
that is actually gonna happen. All right, Trinity wants to
know love the show. My question is, we've seen it
taking time off. Who would be your choice if you
were in charge to get elevated. I've heard some people
saying Dean Ambrose would be a good choice, Jason, would
Dean be your choice of someone else?

Speaker 21 (01:42:34):
No, you know, I think Dean Ambrose, had he not
work so much with Rolins already, would be fine. But
I just feel like I've seen that match too many times,
including recently again on SmackDown. I'd want that to feel fresh,
and it's just not going to kind of going back
to what we said earlier, it's not the guy I
want to see in that role. It's not the guy

(01:42:55):
that I think is going to click in that role.
But let's find out with Roman reigns. Let's just be done,
you know, and for all, let's find out. I shouldn't
say once and for all. You never know what's going
to happen down the road, but I just go with
it and if it doesn't click, okay that and then
you know, if it's my company, though, And because I
don't think it's going to work, I would roll the
dice on bringing in a guy like a Finn Balor

(01:43:17):
or Samoa Joe and really trying to jump start somebody
in a meaningful way.

Speaker 18 (01:43:21):
I don't.

Speaker 21 (01:43:22):
I think there's been a lot of damage done to
the current crop of mid card talent.

Speaker 3 (01:43:27):
You know.

Speaker 21 (01:43:28):
I know Cesarro is the Internet darling and people are
going to be all over that there's still some shortcomings
their way. I mean, it's not like he gets a
lot of opportunities to speak, but what is that character?

Speaker 18 (01:43:41):
Who is he?

Speaker 21 (01:43:41):
And if you have a great plan for it, maybe
that can work. And I think he's a phenomenal in
ring talent, but I just don't have any faith in
them to accentuate his positives and hide those negatives. And
I mean, he just lost a big show and in
just completely forgettable fashion. So I don't think that that's realistic.

Speaker 2 (01:44:00):
That's the thing.

Speaker 1 (01:44:01):
It's almost too late for some of those guys with
a longer rebuilding process.

Speaker 2 (01:44:05):
You know, Bob.

Speaker 1 (01:44:05):
I'm reading Bob Eckland's book, and you know, Bob was
brought in and he worked some TV taping, started winning matches,
and then after a few months, boom, he won the
world title. He didn't job, he wasn't made to look weak,
he wasn't defined down as a mid carter for a
year or two or three before they elevated him. I
think to have an influx of new talent, it's not
that they don't have guys who are underutilized. I just

(01:44:26):
think it's more difficult to climb the hill of rehabilitating
somebody who's been destroyed or diminished, like Cizarro than it
would be to bring somebody fresh in who doesn't have
a lot of losses like that. That said, you know,
I go back to one of the early NXT specials,
the first or second one, where they were outside for
the pre show and Cizzara was sitting there with Paul
Hayman on the pre show, and he just reminded me

(01:44:47):
of kind of an old school Nick Bockwinkle Luthers type.

Speaker 2 (01:44:50):
World champion character.

Speaker 1 (01:44:51):
And I think Suzzarrow could take the fans liking him,
and they could, especially if Paul Hayman managed him. But
you know, Paul can explain you an eight minute speech
why he should only be with Black blah blah blah. Probably,
but I think Paul would be really effective at reuniting
with Cizarro being there every week, with Cesarrow doing talking
for him and having so sorrow just kind of sneer
and be snooty about, well, now I'm world champion, I

(01:45:13):
don't need the people anymore. I I when the people
are on my side, I didn't I didn't succeed. And
now that I've abandoned them, and Paul Hayman has become
my coach and my got my attitude right, I've you know,
proven that I don't need that.

Speaker 2 (01:45:25):
I just think there's you know, we talk about Finn.

Speaker 1 (01:45:26):
Balor being kind of a low key every man babyface
type character, uh, and and that that that lack of
whatever traditional charisma that people like in top spots have
that he doesn't have. I think that can be used
to the to to his advantage. Same thing with Czarrow.
But you have to have a game changing at a
game changing event. There has to be an event that

(01:45:47):
changes the course of Cesarrow's career and that would be
Hayman managing him and him turning heel. And then I think, yeah,
he can just sit there and carry himself like a
heel version of of lu If luth as every turned heel.
Just I am a superior at fleet. I am an
international athlete. I will defend this title worldwide. I am
not a sports entertainer. He I he's got to watch
what he says. Their o elterned babyface. But but yeah,

(01:46:08):
I think there's still something you can do with him.
But there has to be that that what's there's a
language they use in business for, you know, shaking things up,
a commonly used phrase that I'm escaping me right now
that three people will tell me on Twitter later tonight.
But they need to shake things up. They need to
have something happened to change some of these people where

(01:46:29):
you believe that they're better than they used to be.
But it's a lot easier to just bring somebody in
who's new and ready. And Kevin Owens came in and
was good, you know, and it worked and then Vince
just you know, moved him down.

Speaker 2 (01:46:39):
The card too quickly. Kevin Owens.

Speaker 1 (01:46:41):
Kevin Owens is somebody you could push too, by the way,
and see his absence, not as a babyface, but you know,
get him back to doing Mike time and get him
in a program people care about.

Speaker 21 (01:46:47):
Yeah, you know, I was just looking at it from
the babyface perspective, but certainly I'd love to see Kevin
Owens get some Mike time. And I think it's really
going to be difficult for them to, let's say, just
sticking with his arrow to try to get him going again,
or anybody I guess for that matter that's kind of
stuck in the same mode he is. Because who do

(01:47:08):
you beat, you know, other than my god, he beat
Rolins to win the championship, Who is it that you
beat on that roster right now that the realistically they're
not going to feed in brock Lesnar or undertaker to anyone.
So who is it that you get to beat that's
going to elevate you into that position? And maybe John
Cena on his way out, but I other, I mean,

(01:47:30):
I just it's it's so tough when everybody feels so
even because of their even Stephen Parody booking.

Speaker 22 (01:47:42):
Longing for some nostalgia, or maybe you want to learn
some wrestling history, don't miss the nineties Pass cast every
Friday on the PW Towards Daily Cast Feed. Alex and
Patrick will transport you thirty years into the past by
taking you through the TOWRDS issue from that very weak
follow news the WWF and WCW and all the happenings

(01:48:02):
from across the wrestling industry in real time as The
Torch reported it thirty years ago. That's the nineties Pass
cast every Friday for the PW Torch Daily Cast Feed.

Speaker 1 (01:48:22):
Oryan from Chicago says, longtime listener to the show. I
understand the ratings are poor. I think everyone's made it
clear that they are poor. The thing that gets me
is this time last year, everyone was having the same
exact conversations regarding poor storylines, psic man's losing it, et cetera.
And then he writes and puts on this amazing rust
of Mad thirty one, and you guys praise him and
call him one of the best, call it one of
the best shows ever. What I'm saying is, I think
everyone needs to relax and let things play out. WWE

(01:48:43):
isn't going anywhere. Rest Mada thirty two will be another
huge show and we'll break tons of records, don't you know?
By now everything has ups and downs, especially a live
show every week for three hours.

Speaker 2 (01:48:51):
Jason, what do you say to that?

Speaker 21 (01:48:54):
Well, I say, we also told you last year at
this time, it's only going to get worse as far
as the ratings are concerned. To say, in just about
building to WrestleMania, we're looking at it from the business perspective,
and WWE is trending downward when it comes to viewership,
and they didn't get the television deal that they wanted,
and there's reasons why. So, yeah, they did a nice
job and I praised him last week for that. With

(01:49:15):
WrestleMania and with SummerSlam, he's doing a good job of
building up his big events. It's the things that are
occurring in between the weekly television that is a real issue.
And looking at it from a long term perspective, what
do you do when Undertaker goes away? What do you
do with brock Lesner decides after this contract's done, I've
had enough of moving on with my life. What do

(01:49:35):
you do when John Cena finally goes away, you're left
with you know, when all these guys from these names
from the past start to go away, he's going to
be stuck with this roster of talent that he has abused,
that he's just treated like they're they're semi stars, and
it's going to be very difficult at that point if
he doesn't take some of the equity that he's built

(01:49:56):
up in some of these guys and transferred to that talent.
And there's just no sign of that happening right now.

Speaker 1 (01:50:01):
This is more of a rant in a question, but
it ties in what we're saying. Mike from San Francisco
we meld and said, when does someone like Triple H
put his foot down and take a stand Againstint Sickman
and Kevin Dunn. He should not let any of the
talent in NXT. He joined the sinking ship of the
main roster, and he should completely remove himself from any
TV appearances. Someone needs to show that the product is
broken and they're not going to attach their names to
such a poorly produced and short sighted product. The two

(01:50:22):
point three rating is only the beginning, especially if they
keep trying out storylines and nobody enjoys like ziglarussev we
need heels and faces, character building and storylines that don't
insult our intelligence.

Speaker 2 (01:50:31):
I guess there's a question at the top of that Jason.

Speaker 1 (01:50:33):
You know, from listening to Triple H today, any hints
that he's frustrated. Obviously he has to be political and careful.

Speaker 21 (01:50:40):
No, he's given some indications in the past where, you know,
when it comes to the divas, for instance, said it
can you know, it can be a struggle and you're
I don't think he said going to war, but you're
having battles creatively and things like that. It was none
of that today. Like I said earlier, he was kind
of propping up Bence in trying to kill this notion

(01:51:00):
that Vince is an anti NXT guy. But he also
made it clear that somebody brought up you know what
did Vince say? You know how it was it tough
to convince Vince McMahon to get on board with the
idea of the women headlining the NXT takeover show, and
he he said, Vince doesn't have any say in that.

Speaker 2 (01:51:17):
I mean he did.

Speaker 21 (01:51:18):
He did come back around to saying basically that if
Vince had decided after the you know, he wouldn't have
known going in, but it had he said, you're not
doing that, obviously would have had to have changed his plans.
But Vince's very hands off with NXT. But I mean,
just the idea of it's easy for us to go
put your foot down hunter, But why would he? I mean,
he's he's he's I mean, he's just the heir to

(01:51:41):
the throne, waight, And I mean, I'm sure he pushes
for change, but he knows Vince better than anybody does.
And if it's not, if you, if I mean, why
burn that bridge and refuse to appear on television, refuse
to let the guys go up, then you find yourself
on the outside looking in very quickly.

Speaker 1 (01:52:00):
Yes, that's a thing I mean. And he's married to
the boss's daughter. Even Triple H doesn't have a relationship
with Vince where he can put his foot down. You know,
I think if he did, he would have already and
he's probably tested those waters and it didn't work out.
This is Vince's ship. He's at the cap, he's the captain,
he's steering it, and Triple H doesn't really have an
incentive to be the person who forces or tries to

(01:52:23):
force change. You know, he should lead that to others
and let him be the beneficiary of it.

Speaker 2 (01:52:28):
I think he would.

Speaker 1 (01:52:28):
There'd be a backlash from Vince that that Vince would
you know, Vince would make him pay a price for
doing that.

Speaker 2 (01:52:35):
Anything else.

Speaker 1 (01:52:35):
Jason, we have more emails, but we're running out of
time here, so thanks everybody for your email support.

Speaker 21 (01:52:40):
By the way, Yeah, like I said earlier, I want,
I think we need the NXT Live Special to be
one of those field good shows. It's ww is just
kind of in this funk and t and A is
what it is, and very good ring of honor television
show this week, and from a unique setting. It's dated
because but it's from the Somer Slam weekend at the

(01:53:01):
outdoor Baseball Stadium and so a pretty cool setting and
some really good action on the show with Roderick Strong
against Okata in the main event and times Splitters brisk
goes on there. So definitely if you didn't see that show,
go out to your way to see this week's television show.
And then the the WWE twenty four piece I thought
was pretty good. I enjoyed that that they did on

(01:53:21):
another Brooklyn weekend thing where it was kind of behind
the scenes with the NXT talent, and so if you
kind of need that pick me up from pro wrestling,
you're not getting what you want, check out something like that.
You know, it'll make you feel good about some of
the talent there. It'll talk on the heartstrings a little bit,
and you see some of the family connections and things
like that. So, I mean there's some good out there.

(01:53:42):
You might not be getting it from the weekly television
right now, but there's still some good things you can find.

Speaker 1 (01:53:46):
And I did not rant about Stephanie too much. I joked,
you know, she's facing the even number segments in the
heel and the odd numbered segments. But yeah, I mean
we had a number of emails and I just want
to kind of address them all collectively here before wrapping
up that. You know, I did notice a lot of
people noticed heels out there wearing T shirts. It is
illustrative of WWE evens man right now, putting the brand
above the wrestlers and the characters they play, you know,

(01:54:08):
seth Rawlins being the most notable and obvious. But there
were others too, you know, wearing pink and supporting this,
and it's not that we think heels that a heel
couldn't be against cancer. But the thing is is it's
an easy choice to not have them choose to participate
in advertising that they're against cancer. There's just this third option.
You don't have to be pro or con. You can

(01:54:29):
simply not participate in the corporate raw raw session about
the charity of Choice this month. And it does become again.
It creates that headwind to get seth rawlins over as
a heel when people are going, well, you know, he's
not so bad. He's wearing that T shirt. You know
he he's shown support for the women, so I can't
be totally against him. And obviously, how do you feel
about Stephanie When she's out there every other segment changing

(01:54:51):
her persona, every other week, changing her persona. It's almost
like she's trolling us, Jason, I mean, could she possibly have?
I mean I just kind of end up speechless in
that she portrays herself the way that she does and
seems so unself aware of how inconsistent and how damaging
that inconsistency is.

Speaker 21 (01:55:10):
I would love to have her and Hunter explain their characters,
just because I think unless this is just Vince's doing.
I think they've convinced themselves that you never know what
you're going to get from them. You know, it's it's
exciting and it's fresh, and no it's not. It's confusing
and it's horrible, you know, going going to the pink thing.

(01:55:31):
Maagine if Undertaker was on TV, and he will be
this month, you think Undertaker's going to show up wearing
pink wid Probably not? Yeah, I would sure hope not.
And you know, I thought it was ridiculous last night
in the Devis tag match, all but one of them
was wearing the basically the same style shirt. And then
I noticed after the show, Pages on Twitter and somebody,

(01:55:52):
you know, just kind of pointed out that, you know,
the whole pink thing doesn't exactly go well with the
goth look, and she kind of scolded the person and
it's all for charity, and it's like, well, yeah, but
it doesn't mean it. You know, you put your character first.
Let the company worry about the charity. And I wasn't
even bothered by Page wearing it necessarily because I don't

(01:56:13):
know what Page is right now, either is she a
heel or a babyface? But I wish they would kind
of just picking shoes. Who wears those things? And I
think it look at it selfishly if you want to.

Speaker 18 (01:56:23):
It makes the baby faces look better. Wait if they're
the ones wearing it.

Speaker 1 (01:56:27):
I know, No, no, I know, I just the heels
should planting the character not wear it actually makes it
doesn't No, there's going to be no damage done to
the charity if heels aren't showing support for it. Just
it's not a problem that has to exist. There is
no downside. There's zero downside to the heels not wearing
the pink. It just I'm sorry. You're way too self

(01:56:50):
important if you think you not wearing pink is going
to do damage to a charity. So people are tuning
in not for a charitable telethon, They're tuning in to
watch a wrestling show. Give them that immerse of experience
with a consistent narrative with the people who you're supposed
to get emotionally invested in booing and seeing them fail.
Don't send us mixed signals by showing us showing them
Josh and rodo kids at a charity event or wearing pink.

(01:57:12):
It's just simple. This is not controversial. There's zero downside
to not doing having them wear pink, so just don't
do it. It's good enough half the roster's wearing pink.

Speaker 18 (01:57:22):
Hey, real quick, way, do you know who? I thought?

Speaker 21 (01:57:25):
I knew Team Bad were heels until last night? Is
that just because they were in Boston?

Speaker 18 (01:57:31):
And yeah, I think it was? My god.

Speaker 21 (01:57:35):
I mean, so the Bellas are wearing the pink shirts,
but Nicki wears a Yankees hat. So for that segment
they're heels and Team Bad because they were in Boston.
All of them are suddenly baby faces for the night.
There's nothing confusing about the Devas revolution. We're just looking
for things to complain about exactly. Thank you for speaking up, Charlotte.
You're right, No, it is.

Speaker 18 (01:57:55):
It is.

Speaker 21 (01:57:56):
Well, I want to defend her just a little bit
because it wasn't like she was It wasn't so much
a defense of the booking as it was the concept.

Speaker 18 (01:58:04):
I think.

Speaker 21 (01:58:05):
I don't remember who did the interview, but it read
like they were kind of looking for her assessment of
the way the whole Diva's push has gone, and she
kind of spun it into critiquing the reaction to the
name Diva's Revolution more than anything.

Speaker 1 (01:58:18):
Okay, all right, Well, I think if people are speaking
up on your behalf saying things could be better than
they are, and you say, well, just you know, just
smile and accept things exactly the way they are and
pretend that you love it.

Speaker 2 (01:58:31):
Just yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:58:31):
So if she's not saying that, then that's fine. All right,
Very good, Jason, thank you very much. Good conversation as all.

Speaker 18 (01:58:37):
Always a pleasure.

Speaker 1 (01:58:38):
Thank you members of both sites, and until next time,
I'd be happy. Jason Powell, Wade Keller signing off. Invite
you to email the show with feedback or questions or comments.
That email address is Wade Keller Podcast at pete w

(01:59:00):
dot com. That's Wadkeller Podcast at PW toorch dot com.
Also welcome your feedback on Twitter. Even follow us on
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That's at PW Torch and at the Wadekeller.

Speaker 21 (01:59:15):
Searching for more great pro wrestling talk, then join me.
Jason Powell host them the free weekly Pro Wrestling Boom Podcast.
Each week, he'll hear the latest news and analysis from
me and my team at Pro Wrestling dot need along
with other pro wrestling media members, plus the Pro Wrestling
Boom Podcast features long form interviews with notable names in
the pro wrestling industry. Subscribe and Itunestitcher, downcast, and all

(01:59:37):
your favorite secondary apps, or visit us directly at PW
boom dot com. Once again, that's PW boom dot com.

Speaker 1 (01:59:46):
Thanks for listening to our podcast. Did you know we
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Create a tab or bookmark make it a daily stop.
Visit us throughout the day every day to keep up
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Speaker 9 (02:00:10):
Need an extra dose of positivity in your wrestling podcasts,
will come join me Alan forel Over in the Progress
Paradise at pterbreow torch vip as we mask on the
bright side of wrestling and focus on some of the
great matches and shows from around the world, be it
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Speaker 2 (02:00:30):
There's always a.

Speaker 9 (02:00:30):
Place for wrestlings past and the paradise too, and we've
done fun historical shows such as the We Love Liger
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our eye was there when shows where our guests will
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were in attendance for. We love variety and you can
expect lots of it at the Progress Paradise. Detailed pw

(02:00:52):
Torch VIP subscription information and a list of all the
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And yes, all VIP podcasts are compatible with popular podcast
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Speaker 1 (02:01:14):
One way that you can help us sustain our schedule
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Speaker 2 (02:01:47):
Thank you so much.

Speaker 11 (02:01:51):
In twenty twelve, NXT transitioned into the developmental system and
ultimately the brand you see today. On the Torch VIP
podcast Eight Years Back, we'll be taking a weekly look
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Speaker 12 (02:02:06):
Join Kelly Wells and me Tom Stout from PWT talks
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Speaker 1 (02:02:20):
PW Torch VIP membership doesn't just give you add free
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(02:02:43):
top newsmakers in the nineties, and also our podcast library
dating back to the year.

Speaker 2 (02:02:48):
Two thousand and three.

Speaker 1 (02:02:49):
There's no larger, longer spanning pro wrestling podcast library than
that that comes with a PW Torch VIP membership. Now
approaching twenty years of podcasting, Go VIP and die into
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(02:03:10):
Pw torch dot com slash go VIP. We have a
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In one or two minutes from right now, you can
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