10 YRS AGO FLAGSHIP: Keller & Powell looking ahead to WM32, Bailey's big upside, Taker-Cena feud hint, Sting DVD preview, Ziggler-Lana-Rusev

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Speaker 2 (01:06):
Now, PW Torch and Spreaker bring you the Wade Keller
Pro Wrestling Podcast.

Speaker 3 (01:15):
Ten years ago.

Speaker 1 (01:16):
This week on the flagship, Jason Potwick Progesting dot Net
joined me and we first talked with live callers about
a variety of topics such as terrible raw ratings, looking
ahead to wrestle Mania thirty two, Bailey's tremendous upside, Damian Sandou,
the Sting DVD preview, the Dolf Ziggler, Lana russev mess
and more. And then in the previously VIP exclusive after show,

(01:38):
we answered email questions including whether WWE was intentionally sabotaging
seth rawlins, was the evolved WWE relationship anti Roh, the
TNA title situation, a hint of an undertaker Sena feud,
and more so Let's get to it. This originally live
streamed on October thirteenth, twenty fifteen, and it is today's
Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast ten years ago Flagship Flashback

(02:02):
four Sunday, October.

Speaker 3 (02:04):
Twelfth, twenty twenty five.

Speaker 1 (02:16):
Welcome to the p W Torch Live Cast. I am
Way Keller, editor and publisher of the Pro Wrestling Torch
weekly newsletter since nineteen eighty seven and also pwtorch dot Com,
which I'll be talking about a lot on today's program,
and also the PW Torch app available on iPhone and
Android in the Google Play Store, and also host of

(02:39):
this the PW Torch Live cast I host on Tuesdays
and Fridays. Excuse me, Tuesdays and Thursdays. Old habits Dieheart,
but we are on five days a week, and Monday
included Greg Parks joining host James Caldwell. James Caldell the
assistant editor of PW torch dot com. Greg Park's a
columnist with promos and Torchy North Carolina Brittwitmeyer over the weekend.

(03:00):
A really enjoyable show. I really enjoy the dynamic between
those two. So VMP members obviously know what I'm talking
about with that. But we're celebrating twenty five years of
Bruce Mitchell columns, and today we put up a column
from two thousand and two on Day thirteen here on
October thirteenth, of twenty five years of Bruce Mitchell with
a The column was focused on the flop that was

(03:21):
the nWo invasion of the WWF in two thousand and two.
But there's a lot of cool stuff up at PW
torch dot com on the twenty five year celebration of
Bruce Mitchell. In fact, yesterday the theme or the column
from two thousand and one was a column on the

(03:42):
fabulous Freebirds, which I strongly recommend everybody check out. This
was the week that Terry Gordy died and Bruce Mitchell
wrote about the legacy of the Freebirds and the Freebird
Way both on and off air, and then Day eleven
was the death of Hardcore. Bruce Mitchell in the year
two thousand wrote about the ECW and the hardcore wrestling

(04:04):
style and had a real strong perspective on where it
stood in the year two thousand and frankly who was
to Blame? And Day ten was a column from nineteen
ninety nine titled children with wwbe's marketing to children which
is interesting or timely with the Bailey character and a
story at pw torch dot com today in the news

(04:25):
column on NXT for kids interesting interesting development there. And
going back to Day nine from nineteen ninety eight, a
column on from Bruce Mitchell making the case that Rick
Flair was the greatest of all time. The year before
that Fritz van Eric remembering Fritz van Eric who died
that week, a column on Fritz fan Eric and the

(04:47):
World Class Championhip Wrestling Tragedies. Day seven from nineteen ninety
six was Wrestlers Jumping between Raw and Nitro and Day
six from nineteen ninety five, also available at PW torch
dot com. Bruce's first trip to ECW arena yea. He
wrote about that experience in nineteen ninety five. So some tremendous,
tremendous writing. As I noted in the introduction, Bill Simmons

(05:09):
had mentioned once to had mentioned once to the mass
man David Chumaker, who's a good writer on pro wrestling
over at grant Land and before that dead Spin, and
he had said, why weren't there any good writers too?
You came along, and you know, it's one thing to
say you're a really good writer. We're proud Avion's staff.

(05:30):
But I don't know that Bill Simmons spent all his
time or very much time reading wrestling columnists, because to
not know what Bruce Mitchell's reputation has been for twenty
plus years as a top shelf columnist, as regarded as
the most respected columnist in the pro wrestling industry, to
say nobody good came along till David Chumaker. I thought

(05:52):
it wasn't David's fault. I think he was embarrassed by
the comment. Frankly, I think he knows better, and that
doesn't take anything away from him, just this broad statement,
but Bruce Mitchell's most egregious. I would argue exclusion from
such a ridiculous statement from Bill Simmons. And I know
a lot of people are fans of his and some
people are not, but that comment itself was just ridiculous.
And so you can find out why the why Bruce

(06:18):
Mitchell has a reputation he has by going to the
Bruce Mitchell section and clicking on those articles. But again,
I can't encourage you strongly enough. We're really proud of
the new website pw torch dot com. Check it out
and give it a don't just give it a once over,
Visit it every day. We've got some new features and
we'll be adding even more coming up. But it really

(06:38):
is easier than ever. It's faster, more pleasant to the eye,
and easier than ever to find what you are looking
for in terms of TV review, special features, breaking news.
The return of the Torch Today feature a slideshow at
the top featuring five articles that we think are a
particular interest to you. Plus you can scroll down to
the bottom and get links to the latest live cast episodes,
including today's show, which we'll be posted there later on.

(07:02):
All right, a lot of business to get out of
the way up front. We're going to be going to
phone calls in just a moment, and still looking for
Jason Powell to show up on the phone banks. I
don't think he told me he was taking the week off,
so I'll have to drop him an email. Maybe he's
calling from a different number and I don't realize it.
But we'll take a break here here from our sponsors,

(07:22):
and when we come back your phone calls, including the
question of the day, which is which wrestler on the
main roster would you like to see get a bigger push,
especially with John Cena going away for most of November
and December after Helen Assell, who would you like to
get in not just more TV time, but be treated
as a bigger star and get a more serious push.

(07:44):
That was a question of the day at PW torch
dot com. We've got a batch of reader response already
up at PW torch dot com, and we invite you
to call and tell us who that wrestler should be
and make your case for it.

Speaker 3 (07:55):
Make a good case for it, all.

Speaker 1 (07:56):
Right, onto the break and then when we come back,
your phone calls. As a listener of the PW Torch
Live Cast, it's obvious you can support us on Patreon
and get these shows with ads and plugs remove, the
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(08:20):
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torch vip. That's Patreon dot com slash PW torch vip,
and you can also upgrade to other tiers and receive
even more benefits through Patreon. All right, we are back
on the PW Torch Live Cast. Jason Potwell from Pro

(08:41):
Wrestling dot Net now joins me. Jason, Welcome to the program.
Jason either Hey, good to be here.

Speaker 4 (08:47):
Wade, sorry about that.

Speaker 1 (08:48):
That's all right, that's all right. Raw ratings are in
more exactly more the same. I would have been big news.
I guess if the third hour dip below three million.
It barely stayed above. But man, I saw your pollover
at progressing dot net. It corresponds to our poll at
PW torch dot com. This is one of the worst
responses that I've seen for an episode a run a
long time. This was really an off week and voidd

(09:11):
I get my fill? And have I gotten my fill?
As good as he is of playing the role of
corporate Kane interacting with Triple Ah and Stephanie with kind
of slapstick zany backstage skits where they just happened to
be on the phone right when they happen to cut
backstage live after a match, whole thing cheesy, corny. I
think the crowd rejected it, and I don't think it
bodes well for network sign ups this month. Jason that

(09:32):
people didn't stick around to see Kane against Seth Rollins
when that's one of the top matches, although certainly not
the main selling point, but it's when your World champion
is in a match out of pay per view that
leads to a big drop off in ratings and at
the same matches being featured on a pay per view,
you just know they're not in in a period where
I think they're especially proud of of their top World
Champion program.

Speaker 4 (09:54):
Well, and they shouldn't be. But the sad thing is
it feels like it's the top program because all we
get is video pack packages for Undertaker and brock Lesner,
and that's not working. They better have something big plan
next week, and they better hope people actually watch the show.
I know they've loaded it up with a little bit
of extra star power, but they just kind of mentioned
that casually in that third hour that no one's watching,

(10:15):
and so I don't know what I mean. They're just
making mistake after a mistake right now. And it's frightening
when you look at the roster and you just feel
like there's not that guy you point to where well
they just get behind him if they give this guy
a push. No one has any real momentum right now.
Everything just kind of feels like it's in this holding pattern.
And I don't know for what reason.

Speaker 1 (10:37):
I think they are at a point where I don't
see a quick fix. I mean, you know, if you
watch wrestling long enough, you've got things that you can
identify and wrestler you would identify to go. This would
this would improve things, you know, this would make the
show more watchable. But I don't know that there is
really an instant quick fix to get ratings back up
to two point seven and I can't believe we're saying

(10:58):
back up to two point tis.

Speaker 3 (11:00):
But you know, I just don't know that.

Speaker 1 (11:02):
There is a quick fix and this they are paying
a price for five or six philosophical approaches and decisions
over the past three four years that they've made. And
I don't think they can dig themselves out of this hole.
That's such a weird phrase, dig yourself out of a hole.
But yeah, they just keep digging themselves a bigger hole
with shows like this. I just don't think there is
a short term solution without a real change in philosophy.

(11:25):
But nevertheless, question of the day for callers, if you
want to participate, which wrestler would make you more interested
in raw? Or do you think would make other viewers
more interested in raw? If he got a more serious push.
But I won't say it's slim pickings Jason. But everybody's
kind of been defined in a certain role. And I
think that's part of the lethargic interest in raw right
now is there's not really a sense of upward or

(11:46):
downward movement. I don't think people last night were on
the edge of their seats going Wow, finally we get
to see Randy Orton and Dean Ambrose compare their crazy
personalities and they're all lot of personalities with each other.
It was fine, but I didn't watch that thinking, Wow,
these are two really hot character This is going to
help the show well.

Speaker 4 (12:02):
And the thing that got me most excited about that
segment was Dean Ambrose saying he wasn't going to stand
out there and talk forever, and then he stood out
there and talked forever with Randy Orton.

Speaker 1 (12:10):
It's ip plug Jason saying this won't be very long
this week, and.

Speaker 4 (12:16):
Then I just yeah, all right, yeah, I mean that
show is just like last week New Day. I wasn't
a fan of it. I think you need to choose
whether they're comedy or or more straightforward heels. But they
had them close the show by weighing out four different
babyface There's no follow up whatsoever. It's it's just like

(12:37):
it never even happened. They're not even rewarding you for
watching the show. And then the Caine But at the
end of the night, I convinced myself that they're going
so with somebody else, just because we've seen them do
that bit on how many shows lately and it's like,
it can't be this again, and sure enough it was. Oh,
a corporate caine isn't the same as demon cane. It's
so tired.

Speaker 1 (12:56):
Not only was it the same thing, but then we
had the announcers having to play just complete idiots.

Speaker 3 (13:02):
What it's it's demon Kine. It was like, who saw
that coming? Everybody?

Speaker 1 (13:08):
You know, you need to have announcers who have a
moticum of portray themselves as having a moticum of cleverness
and intellect in being able to decipher what even uh
you know eight year old fans out there saw coming.
I mean it was it was telegraphed.

Speaker 5 (13:22):
You know.

Speaker 1 (13:22):
Why not have the announcers go, I think I know
what's going on here, but let's see if it's let's
see if it's what I think it is, and then
when it happens, go yep, yep. That's uh Kine, you know,
out smarting the authority. I mean, just act like you
at least saw it coming, but you didn't want to
jinx it by saying it.

Speaker 4 (13:38):
That would have been better. It still wouldn't have saved
this angle. It's just I mean, you know, the crowd
sitting there chanting for cm Punk and Way. Do you
think like they were actually people who believe he was
going to show up or do you think that was
just kind of a in some cases more of them
revolting a little bit or rebelling against what they were
seeing because it was just like, Oh, God, give us

(13:58):
something new.

Speaker 5 (13:59):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (13:59):
I think this was a case of the fans saying,
we liked it better when this guy was here. We
liked that edginess that, you know, it's what's missing from RAW.
I've written about this in the person Torture News. What
are the outlaw spirit and the outlaw mentality of wrestlers?
And I think they think they have that a little
bit with Randy Orton and Dean Ambrose and Bray Wyatt,
but and there is some of that there, but they

(14:22):
are all three of them come across to some degree
or another as having submitted to the corporate system that
is WWE, and Seampunk gave off that vibe that he
just wasn't you know, that he was there sort of
tolerating the company that he had to work for to
practice his craft. He wasn't there to be a sports
entertainer and fit in. And I really think that's part

(14:42):
of what makes pro wrestling appealing and always has, and
WWE just seems really hell bent on not having that
be part of the corporate image that they projected.

Speaker 3 (14:52):
I think they're paying a price for that.

Speaker 1 (14:54):
Anyway, Jason, let's go ahead and move the phone calls
because we've got a lot of people on hold. I
think people want to vent and give their ideas here.
We already have a ton of people on hold, so
we'll just move through calls as swiftly as we can.
Try to not give speeches, and but you know, certainly
you can make your point, but don't sound like we
surprised you by putting you on the air and now
you're gonna talk to us like we're having lunch. That's

(15:15):
not what we're looking for here on the show. So
try to get to your point and your question for
the sake of everybody listening to And we'll begin with
seven one eight and then on deck four seven eight,
seven one eight.

Speaker 3 (15:25):
Thanks for holding. Please state your name and where you're
calling from.

Speaker 6 (15:29):
Hey, way a Jason, Mine from Brooklyn.

Speaker 3 (15:31):
Hey Mike, what have you got for HI?

Speaker 6 (15:33):
Doing? Just you know, just to chime man, it was
a very stupid show and I'm you know I'm gonna
be quick with it because I'm because I know you're
gonna give you a Roman ring ranch. I wonder what
you thought about the interview, because I thought it was silly.
You need to stop the cool thing. I thought it
was pretty silly, you know. I'm just basically, where do
you see, you know, everything going after Hell and the Cells?

(15:55):
John Finn, who you think is going to be, you know,
his opponent, his last opponent before he leaves, soss what
you do?

Speaker 3 (16:01):
Thanks Jace.

Speaker 1 (16:02):
A lot of people wondering if John Cene is going
to lose a US title before his hiatus. What's the
latest either that you're hearing on that or that you
think they should do.

Speaker 3 (16:11):
As far as Echoes, my.

Speaker 4 (16:13):
Guest remains, even though it didn't look like it last night,
as russef ends up taking and I'm guessing that Oncelana
comes back, Rusev gets his mojo back, and even though
you know, it almost seemed like they were setting it
up for that when they were last week doing the
wedding with Summer Ray when he said that he had
to have gold around his waist before she'd get gold
around her finger. And obviously that one is off but

(16:34):
just reading the complete work piece that they did on
the WWE website today on Lana confirming that russef asked
her to or marry him, it kind of read like
that was where they're going. No mention of John Cene
and was just her talking about how unstoppable he was
when they were together. And so that's my guess.

Speaker 3 (16:54):
Yeah, and I think you're right.

Speaker 1 (16:55):
My question is, Jason, do you think they knew where
they were going with this a week ago, ten days ago?
Do you think they thought on raw on October twelfth,
We're gonna acknowledge a TMZ story and run a www
dot com story and have summer ray at ringside for russev,
then break up with them and then talk about Ruse
even Lana now being engaged to Mary. Because I thought

(17:16):
it was just a complete catastrophe of a timeline it was.

Speaker 4 (17:21):
Yeah, I don't think last week at this time they
had any clue. I'm guessing I don't know if if
the story got out and they panicked, which is so
weird because it hasn't been kept a secret, it's just
TMZ put it out there. And then the way they
were crediting TMZ with the story I disfigured it was
something that WWE gave to TMZ because they wanted it
out there, and they did have some storyline ID in mind.

(17:42):
And then I watched last night's show and I said, Nope,
that's not it either. So I don't know what's going on.

Speaker 3 (17:47):
No, I don't either.

Speaker 1 (17:48):
I just kind of want them to get through this
and get settled with what's going on with Rusev, Lana
Summer Ray. I think that what they've done with dl
Ziegler has hurt him greatly, and to not I mean,
they have this nice corporate headquarters and a bunch of
corporate people in suits, and I'm sure they wear nice shoes,
and they show up smelling good and looking good. How

(18:10):
about you sit them down at a really nice conference
table in a climate controlled environment and sit down and go,
do we have anything that is on that's on?

Speaker 3 (18:20):
Uh? Do we have anything on.

Speaker 1 (18:24):
Total Divas coming up that is going to completely contradict
what also is going on on raw that makes somebody
we're portraying as a babyface look like a heel, you know,
like that kind of coordination is just not there, and
you have Summer Ray and Lana just looking I mean,

(18:44):
I don't even know what people are supposed to think
of them at this point, because Summer Ray kind of
got jilted and humiliated and then she sort of stood
up for herself. But then, let I mean, I can't
imagine what a corporate meeting would be like with the
creative team in Vincent, Man, what kind of discussion would
go on where this seemed like even close to a
palatable idea to put on the air the last what

(19:06):
they've done the last few.

Speaker 4 (19:07):
Weeks with them, Well, you can say that about most
of the show these days, but yes, certainly in that case,
this was I don't know how you I mean, that
was the thing that excited me most going into that show,
which says a lot about the fact that WWE doesn't
take the time to advertise anything more than like an
hour or two before the show. When I saw that,
I was very curious to see where it was going,

(19:28):
because again I thought that it was something they fed
to TMZ and this was like part of the plan.
And even when they once WWE acknowledged it on their website,
I thought, Okay, well, you know it's there. Whether they
fed it to TMZ, they're acknowledging it. They must have
something in mind and nothing. You know, just what we

(19:48):
saw was Russep being destroyed and then being basically humiliated
by some array. Does that mean he's going to become
a baby face somehow, some weird wayway.

Speaker 1 (19:59):
Well, and I put up a question at pw torch
dot com today asking should Dolph Ziggler Would Dolf Zigler
be better off going heel? And yeah, well I think
so and our pull response hero, I'll bring up the
current results. Yes, it would be a spark for a
stale character. Is ahead with fifty percent of the vote. Maybe,

(20:20):
but he might be beyond fixing. Got thirty percent of
the vote and only twenty percent said no, just fix
his baby face push. I do think Dolph is at
a point, especially the way that he UH three timed
the women that he was with when you count the
total divas narrative mixed in with uh with what was
going on with him showing a spark for Summer Ray

(20:40):
but also chasing down Laana. I mean, it's just it's
been I mean, I honestly don't know that I can
remember a WWE storyline much worse than this one. I mean,
maybe there's been other ones, you know, Katie Vick was
pretty awful. People look back on it fondly in a
campy way. I don't at all, and I think it's
bad for business.

Speaker 3 (21:00):
I just don't.

Speaker 1 (21:01):
I do not understand at I continue to say it.
I don't get how there's post how they could possibly
defend what they have put on the air in front
of millions of people with dul Siegeler Russev and the
women the last month or two. I mean, it's to me,
if this was a booker who was not the boss,
then I think that this booker, the head of creative

(21:22):
would be uh, there'd be grounds for firing. I mean,
I think it's I think it's that egregiously bad what
they have been doing with those two. And now you've
got people in a position where they want to see
the evil Bulgarian be a babyface and the bump taking,
hard working Delf Zigler be a heel because their characters
are so badly damaged.

Speaker 7 (21:44):
Need an extra dose of positivity in your wrestling podcasts.
Will come join me Alan fourrel Over in the Progress
Paradise at Peter retorch VIP as we mask on the
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(22:05):
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(22:27):
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You in the Paradise.

Speaker 4 (22:50):
Well, it wouldn't At some point it had been nice
to hear from what if golf Szegler think about this?
Since he was with Lana, We heard from him on
their pre show. They have three hours plus of ww
RAW a week and they couldn't find room to ask
Dolph Ziggler what he thinks about what's going on with
a lot of situation. I'm guessing he's going heel because
of the eye rake, but I also don't know because

(23:12):
DOLPF Ziggler seems like he just likes to go out
there and emulate a lot of moves, and maybe he's
moved on to emulating Kevin Owens. Now I'm not even sure.

Speaker 1 (23:18):
There have been some bad stories told in WWE history,
is this should be this two month stretch should be
among them, although it's less of a serious mistake than say,
the missed opportunity with Daniel Bryan were a month after
month a couple years ago. Around this time, they were
having him chasing the world title, enormously popular and finding

(23:39):
really stupid ways to take it away from him, whether
it was Shawn Michaels a beloved legend to have Steve
Austin or excuse me, Sewan Michaels a beloved legendary character
cost Daniel Bryan the match because well, he's buddies with
Triple H and just sort of shrug it off and
then stay babyface, which was stupid having a big show

(24:00):
do what he did and then to steal Daniel Bryant's
title shot as a babyface afterwards was off. I mean,
they've done some terrible things, and I think that did
more damage. But this, I think is symbolic of how
awful WW Creative is. Right now, let's figure let's go
to Roman Reigns also and his promo last night, Jason,

(24:21):
your thoughts on sending him out there live in front
of the Chicago crowd knowing, I mean, they had to
know this wasn't going to go well. Roman had to
know it wasn't gonna go well. I still don't think
Roman gets it. He talked to the Saint Louis Dispatch
about how he considers himself a strong style wrestler, but
that's not everybody's cup of tea. I just continue to
shake my head at the oblivious, self entitled, unself aware comments.

(24:43):
And I know some people think I'm hard on him.
But when you get a big push and you talk
about yourself the way Roman does, and you just don't
seem to have clue one about why people are booing
you and you say stuff like, well, I'm a strong
style wrestler. Does he know what that term means? I mean,
it's just no wonder they boo him anyway, your thoughts.

Speaker 4 (25:02):
Are they sabotaging him? I mean, honestly, to send him
out there in front of the Chicago crowd to recap
the whole program with Bray Wyatt, I couldn't believe it.
I'm just like, they're really doing this. I was also
I was equally stunned though that when he acknowledged the
what chance, they kind of stopped, and then when they

(25:24):
started with the boring chance, he acknowledged those and they stopped. Normally,
these crowds would eat you alive if you acknowledged something
like that. He was very lucky and that was just
a that was a disaster. And so I just was
sitting there going do they want him to fail? Or
do they just not get it?

Speaker 3 (25:40):
That's the thing.

Speaker 1 (25:40):
I mean, it almost seemed like and what do you
think in totality with his night was he were they
teasing him being a heel or do we just look
for that because we think he'd be better off as
a heel? I mean, I think so many people are
miscast right now on that roster, and you know, Dolf
Szigler might be better off as a heel or almost
for sure would be in my opinion, almost for sure.
Roman Reigns, I think for sure would be. I just

(26:02):
think he is his personality is a heel. His public
I'm sure. I shouldn't say I'm sure he's He might
very well be a great father, great friend, great family man,
all that stuff, but as a wrestling act on the air,
he's a heel. And they need to just accept that,
because I don't think in the last year or so
that in all to try and all everything that they've
done to try to get him over, since he's broken

(26:24):
off with the Shield, I don't think anything is working.
Every sign points to fans want to boo this guy,
and if he just acts like himself, he's going to
be a tremendous heel for twenty fifteen.

Speaker 4 (26:34):
I'm with you now. I mean, I've for the longest
time I said, well, let's just see what they can
do with them, and because he did show some signs
of life with that WrestleMania match, but then they just
kind of pulled back, and I understood that they didn't
want to go right into Rawins against Rains because Rains
wasn't going to win. And I think they were in
their minds, protecting him, saving him for a later date
with Rawlins. But now I'm looking at it, after all

(26:56):
this time his pass going, what have you really done
to build this guy up? You've him in these upper
mid card feuds and now you have him in this
thing with pray Wyatt where everyone beats pray Wyatt anyway,
and so it really doesn't matter. I thought for sure
they were building up Bronze Strowman. It's like this big
obstacle for him, and then they just throw him out
there on raw in a mash that they advertised, you know,
ten minutes before the show on the pre show. I

(27:18):
don't know what they're doing with I don't know what
I mean. Did vincemik we hear about running backs in
the NFL hitting that proverbial wall at age thirty? Did
Vince McMahon hit the creative wall at age seventy?

Speaker 1 (27:28):
Someone argue he did at sixty nine or sixty eight,
But yeah, I mean, it's it's it's almost becoming a disaster,
and I think there's a level of stubbornness to continue
to push, you know what I name. I think, well,
we just got to, you know, ride this Kane thing
out till until Helen is sell and then move on.

Speaker 3 (27:43):
Fine, but I this just the.

Speaker 4 (27:46):
Corporate king point or something hot.

Speaker 1 (27:48):
Yeah, I mean the corporate king character. It's just it's
it's what they like to write. But what what you
like to do and what's good for business can sometimes
be two different things. And it's time for Vincic Man
and creative team to start writing for the fans and
stop writing for themselves because they're paying a big price.
All right, let's let's go ahead to our second call
of the day. Thanks Mike for your call. Good topics.

(28:10):
Obviously we got going on those two. I'll go to
four seven eight, and then on deck is three oh
five here at PW torchlifecast dot com for seven eight.

Speaker 3 (28:18):
State your name and where you're calling from.

Speaker 8 (28:21):
Darrell from Georgia. How y'all doing today, Wade and Jason
doing well?

Speaker 3 (28:25):
Durrel, go ahead with your topic er question.

Speaker 8 (28:28):
Okay, first, I wanted to answer your question that you said,
the poll question who I still deserve a bigger push,
but not even a bigger push, just more protection. And
somebody likes Seth Watler's make your champion relevant, make him
mean something. They need to protect him like they protect
other people who they shouldn't. That's my vote. And got

(28:49):
two questions one question that I'll kind of covered, but
I just wanted to ask it. First question, sit Bence
has okay, the crazy stories with a TMD using that
into and okay, so many different stuff and the ratings
going down. Do you feel like eventually this would be
the kind of the kneeling, the coughing to make him

(29:11):
finally have to step down, just like somebody like someone
who's his age, like siege Fur you step down today,
they can finally force him to step down. That's my
first question. My second question is going back to the
RUMs range. I just feel like he seemed so much
like Let's Luger and how they was trying to force

(29:32):
feed us Lex Luger at the time, and how he
just didn't get it at work. Do you feel like
if it seemed like they're gonna push him back into
the title race, will it be the knil in the
coffin of them thinking that he's a big babyface and
the face to run the place and take him off
TV for a while and bringing back as a heel
if this push doesn't work out. And those are my

(29:53):
two questions.

Speaker 1 (29:54):
Thanks, all right, thanks, go ahead, Jason, run with those.
I'll let you get the first word.

Speaker 4 (29:59):
Well, I think it comes to Rains. Wait, I'm not
going to be surprised if he's next in line for
the title shot. If they're not going to stick with
Cain and a God, I hope they don't. I don't
know who else is there. I mean, you can kill
more time with you at another seth Rollinstein Ambrose program
or do something a Randy Orton or something, but those
aren't going to get anyone excited. And I'm just kind

(30:19):
of looking ahead wondering who it would be. And you
have Roman Reigns last night talking about the title picture
and how this whole thing with bray Wyatt actually revolves
around the title and so now I'm wondering, does he
beat bray Wyatt and then move into title contention? Is
that the next program? So that's my guess as to
where things are going with Roman Reigns. I don't think

(30:39):
it's where they should be going with Roman Reigns. But
I am I forgetting someone way other than the obvious
of well, just keep going forward with Kine.

Speaker 3 (30:49):
I hope not.

Speaker 1 (30:49):
And no, that's the thing when you look at this,
you don't see those obvious well why aren't they doing
this with this guy type thing?

Speaker 4 (30:56):
Right?

Speaker 1 (30:56):
You know, you can say, well, this guy's miscast and
this guy's under pushed, and Seth's Collins is being portrayed
in a way that doesn't really take that doesn't maximize
his drawing power with all the talent he has. But
you don't look and just go, you know, maybe you
look at NXT and say that, but you don't look
at you know, two or three wrestlers and go, oh,
the answer is just the answer is just if they

(31:19):
push this guy. Finally, I just don't think they have
that kind of mid card. Everybody's kind of defined in
a certain way, and.

Speaker 4 (31:26):
They've done that to themselves. They had several guys that
think they had they been taking better care of protecting
they should have those guys ready to slide into a
new slot, and instead they're just spinning their They spun
their wheel so long it's becoming p and a like way.
It really is where they had that good roster that
they just misused for so long that eventually everyone feels stale.
And that's it. Slowly but surely is what's happening with wwe.

Speaker 1 (31:49):
I agree, we're about to go to a commercial break.
Whylested of commercial breaks when you can go v ip
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(32:11):
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Speaker 3 (32:25):
Dreell, did we cover everything you brought up?

Speaker 2 (32:28):
No?

Speaker 8 (32:28):
My other one with the storylines that bent approving And
can this finally be like the narily call another way
they can say, min it's the time for you to
step down. It's past your time, just like Steve Spurry
is somebody his same age.

Speaker 1 (32:46):
Let's go stall callers. When we forget what you said,
you can give us a couple of keywords. You don't
have to repeat the whole question word for word, because
obviously it all comes back to us, and it's not
just euter relative. I know it's kind of instinctive to
want to repeat your case, but just give us a
couple of keywords and it all come back to, Yeah,
Jason forcing what took Matt out of power? I just
don't see how that is realistic. I don't see how

(33:07):
that happens.

Speaker 4 (33:09):
No, I yeah, well, I mean someone needs to step
up and rock the boat. But I mean I just
don't see any indication of that happening either. I mean,
I think that would be step one. Is someone on
creative actually like steps, you know, stands up to him
a little bit and forces a little bit of change.
I don't think it's going to be going to be
that dramatic, you know that suddenly you know, there's this

(33:30):
coup and Vince's force out of power. I just it
would make for a good soap opera. But I don't
see it happening in real life.

Speaker 3 (33:36):
W w A, I don't either. I don't either.

Speaker 1 (33:40):
Okay, well, let's go ahead to our next caller three
or five, and then on deck is eight, one, five,
three or five.

Speaker 3 (33:44):
calling from.

Speaker 9 (33:47):
Hey, guys, JJ from Miami. I think I think that
Owens should get the push. And I have two quick questions,
And the first thing is about Owens. Where do you
guys really think Owens is going to go after this?
I mean after righte back he has the chip. Now,
what do you guys think he's going to go from there?
I mean, who do you think after hell and Selly's
going to go against? My second question is, do you

(34:09):
guys see that I gotta play Neville and and Cizzarro
should be a good tag team or do you think
they should just pull Czarrow and let him try to
get the chip? Or I mean, what do you guys
think of that?

Speaker 1 (34:29):
Okay, thanks DJ Kevin Owens, Jason. What's what's Kevin Owens' future?

Speaker 4 (34:36):
I mean, I think he may. I think he holds
onto the IC title. I don't see any reason for
it to go back to rye back right now if
they aren't going to stretch this thing out, and I
hope they don't. I mean, it could be Dean Ambrose.
I mean there's a number of people. It could be.
They didn't really get much out of the Cesaro program,
so maybe they could revisit that, although it feels a

(34:56):
little too soon just to jump right back into that,
but there, I think there's you can just pick one
of several babyfaces that would make for that would be
a good opponent for Kevin Owens, and I think it
would be a lot of fun. The what was the
second part of the.

Speaker 3 (35:11):
Question, Well, then he asked about Nevill and Czarrow.

Speaker 4 (35:15):
Yeah, oh yeah, I would know. I mean I looked
at that as kind of the old WWE we've got
two feuds going, let's just make a tag match on
raw type of thing. I mean, I like they have
some unique chemistry there, just in part because I don't
know that we've seen them team together before, and so
I like that. But no, I see them both as
singles wrestlers.

Speaker 1 (35:32):
Yeah, yeah, but I do too. I mean, sometimes you
can benefit from being a tag match. But we saw
that was Csarrow and Tyson Kidd And you know, Cizzarro
was one of those, you know, top five six guys
where if you just found a turning point in his
the way he approaches things and whether that's a heel
turn or a few that creates a spark or you know,
they Nick Bogwinkle went to Japan, this was in the

(35:54):
early eighties, and came back with the Oriental Sleeper, and
that was to counter the Gania sleepers who could finally
conquer and gone. He wants it for like you can
have storylines that you write in where you give fans
a reason to believe that this guy is more potent
and better than he used to be, and and go
with that and and give just give fans a story
to believe in, and they'll ride along if you pick
the right guy. And I just think they've been neglectful

(36:16):
or don't have the confidence to do that, or doesn't
cross her mind. Jason, we're past the midpoint of the
first hour here, or the live hour of the show,
and I want to give you a chance to plug
your website and your membership that you offer.

Speaker 4 (36:30):
Yeah. Absolutely, all the details on the raw viewership and
ratings information available today on the main page NXT. Looking
at doing a pilot for a kids type show.

Speaker 1 (36:40):
A livecast dot com and it puts it's kind of
like the tip yardt coffee shop. Throw throw a few
quarters in there when you make your shopping spree.

Speaker 3 (36:47):
It all adds up.

Speaker 1 (36:48):
And I want to give a big thanks to those
who are already doing that again, not ama Z, it's
pwt rch dot com slash Amazon back to the phone lines.
We go here and we're taking your calls.

Speaker 3 (37:03):
Uh, just kind of.

Speaker 1 (37:05):
It's sort of a post post post mortem on a
dreadful by the majority in our poll, A dreadful edition
of Monday Night Raw last night. Certainly disappointing that we
haven't seen anything, any signs, Jason, of these ratings causing
them to question the way that they're doing things. So
let's go and hear from some more callers about eight

(37:26):
one five and then after that six one six, eight
one five.

Speaker 3 (37:29):
calling from.

Speaker 10 (37:33):
Hey, this is Jake M from Aurora.

Speaker 3 (37:35):
Hey, Jake, thanks for calling. What we've got for us?

Speaker 10 (37:38):
I think they really hurt Page last night by making
that best backstage thing of pay Day commercial.

Speaker 6 (37:43):
Instead of using the fans to fill her up. And
what do you think it says.

Speaker 11 (37:48):
About the Deva story that her turning has no effect
on the fans still picking her.

Speaker 4 (37:56):
Do we know that she's turned? I'm confused by it.
Like everything else in the Diva's division, I don't really
She's kind of bickered with her former maybe former tag partners,
and then she sits in on commentary and grumbles there,
and then she was arguing with Atalia, got beat by Natalia,

(38:18):
didn't there was no follow up from that, So she's
just kind of the angry diva with no real direction.
I don't know where she stands.

Speaker 1 (38:26):
And I'm just against wrestlers acting in character in a
way that seems like it's sort of they're making it
up as they go along, just as every other segment
is portrayed, but it's clearly done with a punchline in
line that's meant to sell candy bars or whatever, you know, sponsorship.
I just again, that's people in corporate headquarters try to

(38:48):
find quote creative ways to earn their living, to earn
their pay that day, to find ways to make money,
and in a way that completely undercuts the narrative structure
of the program that I think is the foundation of
what makes pro wrestling work, especially when you can't get
away with making a lot of mistakes, when when you
have Stone called Steve Austin red hot character, or you're
bringing in one big new name after another with legendary

(39:10):
status and like WW Nitro did for a while. You
can get away with a lot of bad segments and
a lot of mistakes, and I just think ww ME
needs to do everything right right now.

Speaker 3 (39:21):
And putting characters who.

Speaker 1 (39:23):
Seem kind of anti corporate, anti establishment in a skit
where they're pitching a candy bar and that's the punchline,
I just I don't think it works. I think it's
the wrong approach, and I think it's it's an idea
from somebody who has never been talked into buying a
wrestling ticket before and simply got hired because of something
on their resume where they thought, oh, this person has

(39:45):
you know, competence, will have them come in. And I
just I think it's a bad idea that doesn't reflect
an understanding of what makes the wrestling pro wrestling as
a genre. Click Jake, anything else for us? No, thank you,
I appreciate it.

Speaker 3 (39:57):
Thanks Jake.

Speaker 1 (39:58):
All right, let's go next to six to one six
six one six. Thanks for holding. Please state your name
and where you're calling from.

Speaker 12 (40:04):
Hey, this is the air for granted, I saw you
guys doing doing great.

Speaker 3 (40:06):
Eric, Thanks for Colin. What have you got for Jason?

Speaker 12 (40:09):
My two question? I guess got two questions versus just
I'm gonna use my scale one to ten again. I'm
seth rollins. What's what's the what's the number of him
being still champion at WRESTLINGIA?

Speaker 4 (40:19):
And what about she?

Speaker 12 (40:20):
What about Tourney Seama's face? I know they could have
worked with that. I don't I don't know whether your
opinion of that would be, but I'm just just thick
of that. If you said people, a lot of the
people are miscast, and I think that's one of them.

Speaker 11 (40:30):
And that's all I got.

Speaker 3 (40:30):
Thanks, all right, Jason, you want to take you the one?

Speaker 4 (40:35):
Oh, I'll start with Shamus. I mean, he's already feels
like a guy who's turned a little too frequently. He
just came back kind of as a heel, or feels
that he came back recently as a heel. I guess
probably been a while, but I don't see it knowing
anywhere with him as a baby face or a heel.
I just think that he's been he's been damaged, and
I don't know what you do with him. He's a

(40:56):
guy that I think when he came back and they
had they stuck with him as kind of their bully Ray.
I mean, he was beating up undersized guys for a
while there and then just losing in other matches, and
they just wouldn't be consistent with this push. He was
definitely a victim of even Stephen booking, and it really
derailed any possible momentum that he was starting to pick up.

(41:18):
And you know when he first returned and was roughing
up those smaller wrestlers. I just don't have interest in
seeing Seamus on my television right now. And I've been
a guy who's defended that character for a long time.
And wait, I just I don't think turning him is
going to make any difference.

Speaker 1 (41:34):
No, I don't think so either. Again, I think the
roster's full of guys like Seamus who are damaged goods,
and I don't have a quick fix for Seamus. I
don't know that he's better as a babyface or a heel,
because I think there's just something about his presentation at
this point that feels kind of flawed and almost like

(41:54):
a lost opportunity for a guy who, by the way,
could make a case a better case in Roman Reigns
that he strong style and WWE just doesn't know how
to grab onto anything about his the sporting aspect of
what he does, the competitive aspect of what he does,
to give the goofy aspects of his character credibility so
people take it seriously.

Speaker 13 (42:19):
In twenty twelve, NXT transitioned into the developmental system and
ultimately the brand you see today. On the Torch VIP
podcast NXT Eight Years Back, we'll be taking a weekly
look at this page in NXT's early history.

Speaker 14 (42:34):
Join Kelly Wells and me Tom Stout from PWT Talks
NXT every Saturday as we go eight years back to
the day to track NXT's rising talents and why they
did or didn't work out, exclusively for PW Torch VIP members.

Speaker 1 (42:50):
Okay, what was Yeah? Go ahead, I'm sorry, go ahead, No,
I was good. I think I've asked the same question
as you. What was the uh?

Speaker 3 (42:56):
What deck? Was the first topic that Eric brought up?
Eric was your first time topic?

Speaker 15 (43:00):
So what is that?

Speaker 12 (43:03):
I'm sethrous to be a champion and chill WrestleMania.

Speaker 1 (43:07):
Yeah, Seth, It's I get. It's sad to even talk
about Seth Championship Brink because he just all I think.
When I think about Seth Rowllins, I think about a
professional wrestler with one and at times two championship belts
being talked to like a third grader being scolded by
the high school principal. And I just think that's one
of the reasons people are not into the show, because
the guy that they're supposed to watch incredible main events

(43:30):
is it has been belittled by the authority figure because
wwe IS believes they need to have heal authority figures
and they also need to keep the McMahon family strong,
and it comes at the expense of something in this
case Seth Rollins.

Speaker 4 (43:44):
Well, and I know Bruce Mitchell when he was on
Jim Ross's podcast. Ross has been somewhat of a defender
of Rawlin, saying he's not, you know, the idea that
he's being booked weak, and I know that was something
Bruce stood his ground on. And I noticed in today's
blog even Jim Ross is questioning the way they're using
Seth Rawlins now and it's getting worse Wight. I mean,

(44:05):
he just keeps losing all the time. I mean they've
established now that the US champion is better than the
world champion by having him lose so many times to
John Cena. He loses to Kane last night in the
Lumberjack match. Again. I mean, it's bad. I think it's
one thing to have a vulnerable heel champion as a
secondary champion or even as kind of a short term

(44:25):
thing as your main event player. But they're costing themselves
money by not making him more than that, because I
think Rawlins is the type of guy who certainly could
be and could be a credible heel champion, and he's
just right now. He's another guy that just really been
put in a poor position. I'm not looking forward to
his match with Kine. I'm not waiting to see what

(44:46):
comes next. I just I'm ready for him to drop
the title. And I'm stunned I'm saying that, And yeah,
I could see it happening, wit. I mean, for a
while there it was like, nah, they'll probably go all
the way to Mania with him. At some point they're
gonna get they're gonna wait up and realize that these
ratings are dreadful and they are going to start pointing fingers.
And I do think he will be a victim of that.

Speaker 1 (45:06):
Yeah, I could too, And I think there's other people
who should be blamed.

Speaker 4 (45:10):
But yeah, yeah, all right, name the show.

Speaker 1 (45:14):
Well, yeah, I almost I think it went without say,
but I have no problem with you underlining it and
saying it, because yeah, that is absolutely the issue right now.
And I just you know, people go, Seth Rowlins's gonna
be blamed for this? Or is Seth Rowlins too blame?
I'm like, you cannot just blame somebody who's written this
poorly and weekly that's seth it. I think a lot
of what the problems with Roz the show is being written.

(45:36):
The writers are writing for characters in the way that
they think plays to the character strength as actors, and
they don't think about what pro wrestling successful person promoters
and bookers have thought about for decades, which is not
can this guy juggle? Okay, let's have him juggle on
the air, or is this guy funny okay, let's have
him till jokes on the air. No, they've thought, what's

(45:57):
the best way that we can portray this talent, this
wrestler to draw money within the narrative of a pro
wrestling show where guys are fighting each other for something
that we set up as being prestigious and worth fighting for.
And they've just completely lost sight of that and they're
writing a little variety show and the pro wrestling fans
are tuning out in large numbers. Up next Aery Coode

(46:18):
three oh two in the non deck eight six two
three oho two. Please state your name and where you're
calling from.

Speaker 10 (46:24):
Hey, this is Larry from Wilmington, Delaware.

Speaker 16 (46:26):
How are you doing?

Speaker 3 (46:27):
Doing good? Larry? Thanks for Colin. What have you got
for Jason to me today?

Speaker 10 (46:31):
Okay, I watched NXT take over Respect right before all
last night and it's like night and day. Yeah, yeah,
so too. I don't subscribe to WB network because my
favorite thing for subscribing to the network was NXT and
I actually watched that on Hulu now, so I think
the way to watch WW programming would be on Hulu.

(46:51):
So do you think w to B will ever pull
their programming from Hulu?

Speaker 3 (46:55):
Uh?

Speaker 1 (46:55):
Jason, that crossed my mind. There's a lot of people
who I think spend ten bucks a month just for
an next time. I don't know how many, hundreds, thousands,
tens of thousands, I don't know, but a lot of
those people also get Hulu for all the other programming
on Hulu that they get for their less than ten
dollars a month. Will NXT's availability, including a takeover special
hurt network subscriptions. I'm sure it will to some degree,

(47:17):
although WWE would argue, well, we're getting enough money Fromhulu
to make it worth it, or it's helping expand our
reach by putting that show out there. I just don't
know how many people stumble a con programming on Hulu.
I think people go to Hulu with a show in
mind that they want to watch.

Speaker 4 (47:32):
Right, Yeah, there's so much to choose from, so they're
putting the NXT takeover specials on Hulu. It's not just
the weekly television show.

Speaker 1 (47:39):
Well, last week replaced the weekly show, so it went
up just like the regular weekly show.

Speaker 4 (47:45):
That needs to change. And Hey, I'm in for all
the Hulu subscribers out there. I feel for you. I'm
not trying to pick on you. But if i'm WWE, okay,
go ahead and put the weekly out there. I'm gonna
go ahead and put the smaller version of Row out there,
and and main Event whatever, Superstars. I don't give a
n XT live special away. I mean maybe, and if

(48:05):
I do, I do it one time. I make a
huge buss over just to give people a taste of
what it is and try to hook them on signing
up for the network. But I'm not giving that away
on Hulu. That's crazy, I.

Speaker 1 (48:16):
Agree, And I don't know how long it'll last, but
I don't think they will. I mean, they're Hulu is
an NBC Universal company, and WWE is in tight with
with that family of properties and program I don't know
anything else, Larry and Delaware.

Speaker 10 (48:33):
Yeah, I have one other point, and I love the
VIP content. I got to go check out the Bob
back one book from you guys. But am I the
only one that has a shut up reaction when Michael
Cole credits the Bellas for starting the Davis Revolution?

Speaker 3 (48:45):
No, of course everybody.

Speaker 1 (48:47):
Everybody finds that obnoxious and annoying, you know, I mean
it's part of it's part of the tone deaf problem
with ww programming and the announcing that makes the brand
that they're so intent on building and protecting and promoting.
They just don't realize what a bad vibe and message
it sends out to their fan base, their quote universe

(49:07):
when they have announcers spewing lines like that do not
ring true to the viewers.

Speaker 4 (49:13):
Jason, Yeah, I'm just cringing more and more now when
I see the bells. But watching Brie pin Charlotte last
night was just so ridiculous. And Nicki, I've been quick
to credit her because she really has improved a lot
in the ring. She's worked hard when she could have
coasted by on the success of Total Debas and because

(49:33):
of who her boyfriend is and she stepped it up.
She needs to go away for a while, they both do,
you know. And Brie is mostly there as kind of
a setup person for Nicki when she was championed. She
doesn't add that they're not really giving her, giving her
much of an opportunity to do much more than that.
But with Nicki, I'm just laughing now. They're trying to
make her like this powerhouse. She doesn't look the part,

(49:55):
and she's got this big forearm thing she does now
and it's just like, this isn't working for me all.
And they portrayed them as being the most intelligent group
of the bunch. They're like second only to Stephanie McMahon
in terms of intelligence on the devas roster of the
divas side of things in WWE, and they're just overshadowing everyone.

(50:17):
They're outsmarting your new babyface champion that should feel like
a sensation, should be plowing through people, should be gaining momentum,
and instead she's just lost. Somewhere in the background. You
forget that she's even champion, and now she's losing the
bribella Uh huh.

Speaker 1 (50:33):
There's things that WWE has almost handed to them as
winning formulas, and they don't seem to understand what makes
them winning formulas. According to kind of that ground Swell,
the bell Weather fans, whatever you want to say, and
they are messing things up. You don't have to wait
for the way Keller Pro Wrestling post show to find

(50:54):
out what I thought of Monday Night Ron SmackDown. Each week,
you can check out my reports that are updated throughout
Raw and SmackDown at pwtorch dot com. My written report
will tell you what's happening in detail in case you
missed the show, and it will also analyze key segments
and give my random thoughts quips on what I am
watching as it airs, So check it out every Monday

(51:15):
night and Tuesday night at pwtorch dot com. That also
applies to wwepayperviews. I cover those live at PW torch
dot com with a detailed written report with star ratings,
and of course you can find other TV reports from
other contributors to PW Torch such as nxt roh Impact
Wrestling and more. Check it out PW toorch dot com,
your first stop for TV and pay per view written reports.

(51:47):
I want to move swiftly now to a few more
calls here with our remaining time on the live cast.
Thanks to Larry from Delaware. Let's now go to eight
six to two and then after that five five to nine,
eight six two. Please state your name in the city
you're calling.

Speaker 17 (51:58):
Front Kyland from North New Jersey.

Speaker 1 (52:02):
Kylan, thanks for Colin. Give us a couple of topics
here and we'll.

Speaker 17 (52:06):
Run with it, okay. Topic number one, how will WWE
use former champion Alberto Delrio if he comes back? Topic
number two what do you expect the big WWE and

(52:30):
ESPN announcement to be? And final topic, why does it
WWE u is Rick Flat in a more substantial non
wrestling role since he since he has expressly stating on

(52:52):
his WU Nation podcast that he shocked a WWE doctor
by passing a very you tim four hours exam Rely, all.

Speaker 1 (53:08):
Right, Well, First of all, I don't care what a
wrestler in his mid sixties does in terms of passing
a physical Jason, he shouldn't be doing anything physical in
a wrestling ring. It's just that there's too many young
guys who are good at what they do. That's just
that has nothing to do with anything. I mean, you
can getting a clean bill of health doesn't mean in
your in your mid sixties, or really even.

Speaker 3 (53:29):
In your fifties.

Speaker 1 (53:30):
I would argue you should be out there doing what
wrestlers do. I think that's actually disrespectful to the craft
and the physical risk and what it takes physically to
do it. I'm not saying as Seann Waltman said a
couple of weeks ago on Interview Thursday, and I encourage
everybody to check out the Shawn Waltman interview, who's always
tremendous on this program. Obviously no one as XPOC. He
just said it should be a case by case basis.

(53:50):
I don't think there is a case by case basis
when you enter your sixties, Jason.

Speaker 4 (53:56):
It's I mean, it's that kind of thing has to stop,
and I don't know that it's going to I mean,
I would think with Flair that the ship has sailed.
But WRESTLEMANI a thirty two way. If they're ever going
to do anything with Rick Flair or some of these
other guys and you know, some of these older guys
in the ring again, you would think that would be it.
I mean, hul Cogan, whether you believe or not, was

(54:16):
making it seem like Bench McMahon had given him a
thumbs up on wrestling this year or next year. I
should say at WRESTLEMANI at thirty two. I don't see
that happening given the circumstances. But could it be flairway?

Speaker 3 (54:28):
Ah, I don't know what.

Speaker 4 (54:31):
Again, I'm not asking if he should because I don't
think he should either, But I just I do wonder
if they're going to start panicking and trying to sell
as many tickets they can.

Speaker 1 (54:40):
No, I don't think. I think they're smart enough not
to do anything like that at this point. I believe
it or not, I believe it or not good. But
as far as Flair goes in general, I think a
little bit of Flair is better than a lot of
Flair at this point. I mean I really do. Yeah,
I think that you know they've got him advertise for
Monday show. They really want to pop a rating on
Monday and get back up up two point five and
get some moment. I'm going to hell in a cell.

(55:01):
So it's you know, and I did the math the
average age of Sean What do you think it is,
Rick Flair, Undertaker, Shawn Michaels, and brock Lesnar the four
special attractions on next week's Raw. What's the first number
that pops into mind?

Speaker 4 (55:12):
Oh? Boy?

Speaker 1 (55:13):
Fifty four fifty one. So and I'm not again, I'm
not against that. I don't even say that as like
a judgment. It's just the four wrestlers that they think
are going to help ratings next week average out to
fifty one years old. You know, at some point they
have to go. You know, if you did that same
average in nineteen ninety eight, I bet the average age

(55:34):
of the of who was popping ratings was in the thirties.
And so that's I'm not against using legendary figures strategically,
but although in the ring I am at a certain age.
But I do think they have to look at that
and go, what are we doing? That puts us in
a position where we don't have We're the only guy
we have underage forty five. Actually I think under age

(55:58):
fifty because I think Sean Michael's I think just turned fifty,
so he got fifty to fifty one and mid sixties.
How do you end up with the youngest guy as
your special attraction is in his late thirties and only
wrestles or appears on rare occasion in a really pricey way.
I mean, at some point they got to figure out
how they go back into building stars his first time

(56:19):
About Alberto del Rio, Jason, you know, I don't have
a strong feeling of the way. I don't think del Rio.
I mean, he's fine. I don't think del Riol's a
difference maker. I think they've done what they were going
to do with him, and if del Rio were to
come back, then I don't think it really. I mean,
there's a good way and a bad way to promote him,
I guess, but nothing jumps out as like, oh yeah,
if they just did things right with him would make

(56:40):
a big difference.

Speaker 4 (56:42):
Well, I tell you what I felt that way until
I watched him and Ring of Honor and seeing him
a little bit in Triple A as well. If they
let him be himself, which is a lot to ask
for that company. He can be a difference maker as
a babyface even I mean, they're always looking for that
next Hispanic star, and he showed. I mean it was
just night and day when he showed up and Ring
of Honor, and you know, it aired on delay. There

(57:03):
was such a long time between the taping and all
that that by the time it aired, my enthusiasm was down.
It was just like I want ever I watch it
and I was like, I was very impressed by just
the way he took you know, played to the crowd,
and it's just like, that's a guy that could be
a baby faced star and he is outside WWE. He
gets back to WWE. I mean, I'm skeptical one because

(57:25):
of the way he left with all the drama. But
if he does, if he were to return, I would
I would like them to try something new, but I
just have a bad feeling it would be, hey, here's
Alberto and Ricardo and they just pick up right where
they didn't leave off. But they'd act like they you know,
two weeks in, you'd just feel like they've been there forever.

Speaker 1 (57:44):
There is something about walking through the heavenly date of
WWE and somehow being stripped of some aspects that made
you cool in a different environment, and that's not a
good spot to be in as a promotion.

Speaker 5 (57:57):
What was I mean?

Speaker 3 (57:58):
Oh, go ahead, Jason, I'm sorry.

Speaker 4 (58:00):
I was just going to say, you know, if it's
not Russe f and they do bring him back, that
you know he would be They should be looking for
guys that can spice up this second wave of the
US Open Challenge, and he would certainly be a guy
if they want to kind of make a splash with someone.
Put the US title on him before Sina goes away,
and then he Sena has a ready made opponent when
he comes back. That could work.

Speaker 3 (58:20):
No, that could work.

Speaker 1 (58:21):
I get I just as good as del Rio is
as a character, I just don't know that bringing him back,
even if he were to beat Sina and win that
US title and set up a feud for afterwards, I'm
just not convinced that fans the in the way that
w with the credibility that WWE has with their viewers

(58:42):
right now, that they'd necessarily be willing to buy into that.
But you know, del Real maybe could perform his way
out of that limitation that I think the brand puts
on on wrestlers right now who have been previously defined.
I mean, I make my case for it. I think
Cizarro and Kevin Owens and DL Siegler should all be
redefined and seth rawlins and portrayed batter So I guess
you know why why not let that be the case.

Speaker 3 (59:03):
With del Rio two?

Speaker 1 (59:03):
Take guys who have been just kind of booked in
kind of a nonchalant, uninspiring way. Maybe the shortest answer
for them is to start booking guys in a way
where they can shine and be more inspired, like Kevin
Owens when he first arrived. Do you remember Kylon's middle topic?
Now I'm drawing a blank.

Speaker 4 (59:23):
I do not, sir.

Speaker 1 (59:24):
Let me go back to Colin. Colin, what was topic
number two? You have a limitation of four words on this.
W W and ESPN gotcha?

Speaker 3 (59:34):
Thanks? Yep.

Speaker 4 (59:35):
Oh, I'm happy he brought that up.

Speaker 3 (59:37):
Yes, go ahead, Jason, Well, I.

Speaker 4 (59:40):
Think it's said a lot last night. I don't know
this for sure, I'd have to go back and watch,
but I believe that WWE promoted this seth Rollins appearing
on ESPN Sports Center. He's appearing on ESPN News Sports Center.
Oh so they would rather they would rather send the
message to everyone that they're you know, look at we're
on ESPN, then actually send people to the right network

(01:00:02):
to see it.

Speaker 3 (01:00:03):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (01:00:04):
Well, you know, I mean I actually kind of half agree.
I don't know that it's going to matter how many
people see him on the program. I mean, I'm being
a little country in here, but I don't know how
many people would are going to actually watch him on
the program, because even ESPN Sports Center, I mean, it
tells good numbers, but it's not going to make a
difference in your ratings. But I don't know if you
want to send the message to your I think it's
kind of cool to send a message to viewers, even

(01:00:24):
if it's deceptive. This guy's going to be on Sports
Center and kind of have it, you know, just not
really specify. Yeah, the one that seen by three hundred people,
not you know, three million people.

Speaker 4 (01:00:36):
Right, I mean, I got I mean, I guess maybe badness. Yeah, hey,
And if that's what they're thinking, okay, they put some
thought into it, and I get it. I mean, I
don't know if it's that, I don't know if it's
stay screwed up. I'm not I'm not quite sure, but
I mean there's definitely something going. You know, WWE and
ESPN are starting to form a very cozy relationship, and

(01:00:56):
it sounds like ESPN will be doing more with WWE
at WrestleMania this year.

Speaker 1 (01:01:00):
Yes, all right, Colin, thanks for the good topics.

Speaker 18 (01:01:09):
Longing for some nostalgia or maybe you want to learn
some wrestling history, don't miss the Nineties Past cast every
Friday on the PW Torch Daily Cast Feed. Alex and
Patrick will transport you thirty years into the past by
taking you through the Torch issue from that very week.
Follow news from the WWF and WCW and all the

(01:01:29):
happenings from across the wrestling industry in real time as
The Torch reported it thirty years ago. That's the nineties
Past Cast, every Friday on the PW Torch Daily Cast Feed.

Speaker 1 (01:01:49):
Let's go next to five five nine, five five nine.
calling from.

Speaker 19 (01:01:54):
Hey guys, it is Steve from Fresnel.

Speaker 3 (01:01:56):
Hey Steve, thanks for calling. What have you got for us?

Speaker 6 (01:01:59):
Hey?

Speaker 19 (01:01:59):
Two really good things? One, why hasn't we allowed they
mean Sandal to go back on the NXC And make
a new character for himself like they did for Tyson kids.
And two, do you think that Bailey should be like
a Ricky steamboat type John Cena and never turn heel,
never even turn tween er type, keep the outfits and

(01:02:20):
modest and just be that super face super person that
the girls can get behind for years and years.

Speaker 1 (01:02:27):
Yes, absolutely everything you just said. I mean this idea
that like this, it's that in wrestling everybody needs to turn.
First of all, that's not historically how things were, you know,
I mean there, yes, maybe after twelve, you know, like
Bob Beckland, you know, came back as a heel in
a very different stage of his career after years away.
But there's a lot of wrestlers who just are better

(01:02:49):
off being a hill or better off being a face.
And when you turn people, it's sometimes it's it's just
an indictment of your own creative efforts that you've run
out of opponents for them, and that you have a
formula where you have to go for shockva where you
turn people. But I mean, I'm not against good turns.
I mean, Paul Arnor's turn on Hogan was phenomenal, But
you know, there's good turns but they should really mean
something when they happen Bailey. Absolutely, I mean people are

(01:03:12):
really more and more people Jason are saying Bailey has
a chance and I agree to be one of the
most unexpected breakout acts for WWE.

Speaker 3 (01:03:23):
Where are you on that one?

Speaker 4 (01:03:26):
Well, absolutely, I've been there for some time and I
want her to stay put. I want her to stay
in NXT because I don't trust them right now. Creatively.
I was disappointed last night when they actually showed a
footage from her match, because I do think I would
have hit the reset button when I called her up
to the main roster. And yeah, there's some people to
the NXT that watched that show that have seen the

(01:03:46):
act before. I don't think too many of them are
going to complain if they just would have hit the
reset button on her. Now you've established that lovable underdog
Bailey is a champion and she can go, And so
you're depriving some of the viewers that, you know, the
good chunk of the raw audience. It isn't watching NXT
of taking that journey with that character. There's still a

(01:04:07):
way it can work. And as far as Bailey being
a baby face for her entire career. That's certainly how
I would go into it. I mean, I would you
always leave the door open if you never know ten
years down the road it is the next great baby
face going to pop up, and it's just it's time,
you know, where Bailey's kind of run out of steam.
But I would certainly approach it that way because she

(01:04:28):
is absolutely what they need. She is just a remarkable character.
I just think it's a phenomenal what she's done. I
love the reaction of the young girl in the crowd,
Bailey's biggest fan, all of it. I mean, it's just great.
It's so cool to see. Jake Burnett's young daughter went
to an NXT show with him and she went to
see Bailey and Bailey came over and hugged her and everything,

(01:04:49):
and it just made her day. I Mean, you just
don't see wrestlers, forget the female male thing. You don't
see wrestlers making the type of connection that she is
with young female viewers.

Speaker 1 (01:04:59):
I totally what Uh what was his first topic? I
got so repped I got to write these down.

Speaker 4 (01:05:05):
Uh, Steve, Yeah, I got caught up in Bailey.

Speaker 3 (01:05:07):
Yeah, Steve, you four wards or less? What was your
first topic.

Speaker 19 (01:05:10):
All right, Sande back to the next Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:05:13):
Yeah, I got it.

Speaker 1 (01:05:13):
Sand Out Yeah what I mean in a way, Jason,
maybe it's good they're giving him some time away before
bringing him back. I don't know if like quote new
character is the right way to describe what I want
them to do with Sandel, but redirect the part of
him that fans already like in a way that will
be taken more seriously and it plays into what I say.

Speaker 3 (01:05:33):
You know that the.

Speaker 1 (01:05:34):
Ancient example of Nick Blackwink will go into the orient
and coming back with the Oriental Sleeper to combat for
Gania's a well established finisher the Gania Sleeper. You can
tell a story with Sandow that gives fans a reason
to believe this guy can now be a top tier
threat and maybe some time away is good. Your your
thoughts on sand O.

Speaker 4 (01:05:53):
I think they really had something there with the intellectual Savior.
I mean they needed some tweaking. I didn't like all
the landing, you know, the Lanni pot A look that
they gave the character. I thought it made it a
little too a mid to undercard even but I think
he played the part well. I think there's a place
for that in wrestling. I think the idea of him
suddenly coming in as a main eventor you know, I

(01:06:15):
think it's going to take people a long way long
time to kind of forget what Damian Sandel was. And
he also needs to step up his game. And I
just recently heard a story from one of the staff
members about what they were hearing, which is that after
he won money in the bank, he put on some
weight and ended up in the doghouse because of it.
And so you know, that might be why his post
money in the bank win push didn't go as well

(01:06:37):
as I think a lot of us expected it too.

Speaker 1 (01:06:39):
All right, let's try to get a couple more calls
in here with our time left. Steve, thanks for the
thanks for the topics. Nine two up next and then
on deck five h two nine five two. Please state
your name it where.

Speaker 3 (01:06:48):
You're calling from.

Speaker 6 (01:06:49):
This is Brian.

Speaker 11 (01:06:50):
I'm calling from Minneapolis, Minnesota.

Speaker 3 (01:06:51):
Hey, Brian, go links. What have you got for us?

Speaker 11 (01:06:54):
I had one question. It was in regards to the
Staying DVD review that they had on last night.

Speaker 6 (01:06:59):
I didn't on a w W.

Speaker 3 (01:07:01):
No, you guys didn't see it.

Speaker 4 (01:07:02):
No, I did not choose this one yet.

Speaker 11 (01:07:04):
I just thought it was interesting that had a entertaining
definitely gives you insight into what you guys are talking
about the disconnect between those who are creating or okaying
the content to go on air, and just kind of
propelling the company's creative direction. With a scene where Sting
comes in and is kind of talking to some of
the suits at WW about his projects and just hearing

(01:07:27):
them talk about the commercial ad shows how little, how
little is tied into it, and I for people who
don't really connect that idea, I just speak of an
undercover boss. When you see the boss trying to just
do the simple tasks of the people who usually is
in charge of it's kind of like that. It's they're
so not understanding what really makes Sting relevant. So they're like, oh, yeah,

(01:07:49):
it was really cool. It's like, but what can you
tell me three of your favorite Sting matches, guys, Suit
one or Suit two? It probably couldn't, you know what
I mean? And they're going to tell you that's why
he's gonna pop in this game, and we got.

Speaker 16 (01:08:03):
We're gonna make big money.

Speaker 11 (01:08:04):
Is it's like listening to cheap, sleazy producers in Hollywood.
So that's my comment, I'm going to hear your guys's take,
but uh well, I'm gonna hear your guys' review of
the DVD in its entirety because Sting is looking into
the light one, two, three, Thanks guys, have a good show.

Speaker 1 (01:08:19):
Thanks Brian. I appreciate the contribution. There some info I
want to watch that. You know, when he was talking
reminded me of your point on Bailey and you know,
the the idea that that there's not a really good
explanation for what the connection is and the relationship is
between the NXT universe and the main Roster Ross SmackDown universe,
and I just think they got to sit down and.

Speaker 3 (01:08:37):
Figure that out.

Speaker 1 (01:08:38):
You know, is is what happens on NXT something that
counts in the narrative of WWE. I think NXT is
high profile enough now where you've got to have n X.
What happens at NXT be considered fully by WWE when
they bring people in doesn't mean that you should show
them everything. I think you're right, Jason, when Bailey or

(01:09:00):
you're introducing her in a new setting and with a
new audience. But I think you just talk about what
you did at NXT to a certain level, so that
there's a connection between that those two galaxies in your universe.
But you know, I'd say the same thing about Total
Divas too, even though the timeline is a little off.
But ww just they just there's not any kind of
structure or discipline of the way that they approach that stuff.

Speaker 4 (01:09:22):
No, they just say. And it's so weird that Vince
took the time to think of, well, no one from
Total Divas can wear the Devas Championship. Remember when he
went through that weird mode. I can't even remember the
logic on it. It was just so silly. So he
there's times where he cares about those things, but nobody
ever really sees it through. And I do think that
starts with him. I think if he demanded that there

(01:09:45):
be some continuity there and there's be some real rules
that they play by, things would be great. But I
just don't think he really commits to it. I just
think so much of what he does is on a whim.

Speaker 1 (01:09:55):
Yes, I'm with you. There's been times where I've been
able to, you know, finger put my finger on what's
wrong and and you know, go all right, this is
what they're doing and here's why, and I disagree with it,
or I think there's a better approach. Even if this
is working, Okay, I just don't even understand where they
are now. And that's that scene that that Brian described
on the Sting DVD. I think is is symptomatic of

(01:10:18):
things just getting out of out of control of the
people who understand the progressing genre and and what makes
it work. I wouldn't possibly step into the comic book
world or the NASCAR world, or I mean, I'm just
you know, whatever universe I'm not immersed in, and just
because I'm proficient in Excel and the Adobe suite of software,

(01:10:41):
suddenly start walking around in a suit telling people, or
because I'm a good producer and I know how to
produce videos, walk into that world and start deciding I
have clue one about how to promote the stars and
the people who sell or create or draw the revenue
from the from the customer base. It's like, I just
it's so far gone from people who understand this really

(01:11:04):
unique pro wrestling genre positioning wrestlers in a way to
draw and it is frustrating because I do think a
lot of it is on Viscio man, but I think
a lot of it is on a corporate structure that's
just gotten unwieldly, and it doesn't have discipline, It doesn't
have anyone just standing or going all right. That doesn't
work in this world, and I think they need more

(01:11:24):
people like that. Anytime you're watching WWE Raw or SmackDown
or aw Dynamite in particular, send us an email if
you've got thoughts on the show or a topic you
want us to address or a question for us. Wadekeller
Podcast at pwtorch dot com. Wadkeller Podcast at pewtorch dot com.
If there's anything else going on in pro wrestling that

(01:11:46):
you want us to address on our main podcast during
our mailbank segments, that same email applies Wadekeller Podcast at
pwtorch dot com. We invite that interaction. Let us know
what you think of what we're saying, and let us
know what you want us to talk about to ask
us specific questions. Wade Keller Podcast at pw torch dot com.
All right, I'm next five oh two and we'll try

(01:12:07):
to get to eight, one, three also and maybe one more,
five or two. Please state to name and where you're
calling from.

Speaker 16 (01:12:13):
Get us some mad from Louisville, Kentucky.

Speaker 3 (01:12:15):
Thanks for holding Matt. What have we got for Jason?

Speaker 16 (01:12:17):
He's just a quick thing. I know, A long time
three year VFP member really enjoyed the show. A couple
of months ago when they first started the whole zigular
Rut Lana triangle. You mentioned that WW has a history
of mentioned with people as a real life relationships. Do

(01:12:37):
you think it is possible that Rustefan Lana maybe leaked
this engagement thing out themselves so they wouldn't have to
start so you know, they have to put them back
together essentially.

Speaker 3 (01:12:50):
That's interesting.

Speaker 1 (01:12:51):
I really got I like a good like a good
conspiracy theory when there's a really good logic behind it. Jason,
I I the way this played out and the timing
of it, what if I mean, it's the way that
it came out.

Speaker 3 (01:13:08):
Is there any way.

Speaker 1 (01:13:09):
That you could imagine Rusevin Lana doing it without permission
of WWE?

Speaker 4 (01:13:14):
Yeah? I couldn't buy into that as a possibility that
they I mean, we know TMZ page for stuff too,
so maybe they just wanted to make a little extra
coin and you know, I yeah, but I but I
think wasn't it out there anyway? On like her Instagram
or on did they put it out there on Twitter?
I could be mistaken. I just didn't think it was
that big of a thing. And then, like you know,

(01:13:36):
we are weeks later and all of a sudden, it's
on TMZ and I'm like, oh, okay, I guess it
was a big deal.

Speaker 1 (01:13:41):
Well that goes to what I'm saying about the different
galaxies in their universe, you know, aligning with each other,
the whole social media reality, what people know versus what
they don't know. It conflicts so much that they just
they don't have a consistent policy. I didn't even assume
that they were going to acknowledge it less, not on raw,
even though I felt that TMZ was a big enough
deal that they needed to. I don't think they can

(01:14:01):
go forward with Summer Ray and russev in an engagement
maybe we're gonna get engaged and get married storyline. When
you have a high profile site like TMZ being reported
and re reported by everybody out there, including US, I
don't think you can do that story. But I was thinking, well,
WWB thinks there's two realities, the real world one and
the one we portray on TV, and we don't even

(01:14:22):
care if the two line up, just like when Triple
H was the mean authority and then he walked through
the through the magic doorway to the Steve Austin set,
and now it's like, Hi, I'm everybody's favorite NXT person
who's going to be the savior when Vince finally steps away, Like,
they just don't seem to care, and I think so
I was kind of going into a lesson, I think,

(01:14:42):
and they just probably won't acknowledge it. They'll go on
with the story and all anybody's gonna be thinking about
is I don't believe this for a second because I
know that in real life Ruceevin Lan are getting married
and that hurts things. But they're just gonna hold course
and act like it doesn't matter even though it does.
And I know there's people who frustrates me, Jason.

Speaker 3 (01:14:57):
There's people go, I know it's fake, so you you're
the only one hung up on it.

Speaker 1 (01:15:01):
I mean, I like get those and I'm just like,
you don't understand how much more enjoyable it would be
for you if the promoters and the wrestlers made you
believe a little bit more that the reason they portray
the character they portray on TV is because it's reflective
of who they really are, and it is such a
more immersive fun product when you're left to wonder. And

(01:15:21):
I know it was at a different time, but go
watch Stan Hanson at his peak. Go watch him in
Japan or in the AWA, or against Bob Beckland in
the WWF, and watch him and you tell me that
you aren't convinced that this guy is somebody who you
don't want to cross, who's completely uncontrollable. And he did
have an outlass beirit in real life that played into

(01:15:42):
that the Freebirds were the freebirds. I don't want Michael
Hayes tweeting or instagramming pictures of him gardening with his
little poodle while he's portraying party animal rockstar Michael Hayes.
That's e thing stupid. So please don't tell me it
doesn't matter. Because the reason the free adsul tickets, the
reason Stan Hanson soul tickets, is they were portrayed on

(01:16:03):
television in a business that most people knew was orchestrated
with fake finishes.

Speaker 3 (01:16:08):
They believe the.

Speaker 1 (01:16:09):
Characters they were watching had a high level of authenticity.
That's why see I'm punk Drew. That's why John Cene
is popular with the fan base that loves him because
they believe he's authentic. So the Von Eric stopped drawing
when fans started thinking, God, these guys are dying left
and right because they're druggies and they don't. They don't
they aren't what they portray on television. So yes, it
does matter. If it doesn't matter to you, it's not
all about you. It does matter to the hundreds of

(01:16:32):
thousands of people who are tuning out RAW because they
don't believe there's any authenticity to even the scripted at
Having the scripted aspect thrown in their face isn't is
if it isn't enough having the characters contradict themselves in
various ways, including this whole Lana Russev, Summer Ray, Dolph Ziegler,
Nikki Bella debacle. It does matter. It does add up.

(01:16:53):
It adds up when Stephanie puts on Twitter, I really
enjoy playing playing a bad guy on TV. You know
it's it doesn't work when Triple H is walking through
a magic doorway going from the heel authority to the
nice NX savior of NXT, the leader of NXT, who's
all representing all good. So this stuff does matter, but
there's I don't think there's enough people in corporate Jason

(01:17:13):
who even have clue one about it because they don't
watch the product and their head isn't spinning like ours is.

Speaker 11 (01:17:18):
No.

Speaker 4 (01:17:18):
Well, and it's funny you mentioned CM Punk in that
rent and with the funny thing is about the people
that are emailing you that it doesn't matter to them.
It only matters to you how many of them actually
sat there and probably to this day believe that CM
punk went out there and it was all a big
shoot when he did his pipe bomb promo. And so
I mean, the joke is kind of on those people exactly.

Speaker 3 (01:17:39):
That's a great point.

Speaker 1 (01:17:40):
They Punk gave them a story to believe in, and
they bought it because they gave them the story that
they wanted. And when you give people a story to
believe in, a story that they want, they will they'll
buy into it and be more into the product people want.
People are willing to suspend their disfel and not even

(01:18:01):
just buy into a sliver or a slice of authenticity
in the progressing product. And WW just doesn't give people
the chance to really do that. Okay, let's uh Let's
see where are we time wise? We're getting low on
time here. Let's try to uh take one more call here.
I can't remember what order I said is going on,
but we'll do uh, We'll try uh eight one three

(01:18:23):
eight one three. Please state your name in the city
you're calling from, right.

Speaker 3 (01:18:29):
Eight one three once?

Speaker 1 (01:18:31):
All right, we got enough people on hold, so let's
go next to three four seven three four seven.

Speaker 3 (01:18:35):
Thanks for rolding. Please state your name in the city
you're calling from.

Speaker 15 (01:18:38):
Hello, is this Christmas from New York? And have two
questions he Chris, Okay. The first one is actually about
the ratings. Do you think that from the McMahon's respective,
do you think at this point in time they're just
gonna ride out the storm and just accept the factors
to take on people in real sports and just why
it out? And the second question is about Nick Man,

(01:18:58):
even though everyone is distipulation will be his successor do
you think there's a part of Vincent Man that would
like to see Toby end when he does? I mean
not like yes way, but is there a part of
him that would love to see the company and when
he says it will end like he'll you know, fin
some five minutes, he'll say, I built it up. I'm
going to end it myself. I don't want anybody to

(01:19:19):
take it over after me.

Speaker 3 (01:19:20):
Chris, thank you. That's awesome.

Speaker 1 (01:19:21):
Is Vincent Man writing a Thelma and Louise ending to
w W A Jason?

Speaker 4 (01:19:28):
I mean, I know a former writer who predicted that
he would sell it. Court Powers predicted going back several
years that he thinks that Vince's endgame would be to
sell this sucker rather than just you know, pass it
on down. I don't know what was the first question.

Speaker 3 (01:19:44):
Oh god, I knew you were going to do that.

Speaker 1 (01:19:46):
We both get so wrapped up, Chris, was your first
topic forwards or less.

Speaker 15 (01:19:50):
With regard to the ratings at this point?

Speaker 1 (01:19:53):
Yeah, yeah, I was going to say when Chris brought
that out, Thanks Chris, that they're not It's not that
they can't compete with real sports. It's that they can't
right hold the attention of people who really really want
to like them. There are so many pro wrestling fans
who just want the pro wrestling that they like in
the pro wrestlers that they like in ww's not giving
it to them. It is not that pro wrestling as

(01:20:14):
a genre cannot compete with yet another NFL game. I mean,
that's just not the case. There's nothing inherent in twenty
fifteen that prevents WWE from growing, not receding in viewers.

Speaker 4 (01:20:29):
And if you have that defeatist attitude, you're going to
be defeated. It's just that simple. If that's their approach
is wow, we'll just ride it out. It's a very
scary mindset to have, because I mean I'm worried about
WrestleMania season already. Yes, the sports will go away, and
I'm sure they'll get a viewership and ratings increase, no
doubt in my mind come January when that happens. But

(01:20:49):
what are you positioning your roster for WrestleMania season. I mean,
you better hope Daniel Brian can return. You better hope
the Rock can do WrestleMania because you're kind of overexposing
Undertaker to where it's not going to feel as special
at WRESTLEMANI when he is there, unless you announce that
it's his final match. Rock Lesnar has been around a
little bit more than I think we expected this year.
I would hope they're not going to put Sting back

(01:21:11):
in the ring, given his neck injury, and even he's
been a little bit exposed lately. And then you have
the guys who are on TV every week, and most
of them are in a really bad position. So what
are you going to do. It's not just phoned in
for this season. It's do everything you can. I mean,
don't hotshot, but do what you can to to compete

(01:21:33):
and put your and really position yourself for a strong
post football season and a strong WrestleMania season.

Speaker 1 (01:21:41):
Totally, totally, and I think that if you look at
the fallback not fallback plan, but the aces that ww
WE had for WrestleMania season, and you look ahead to
this WrestleMania, it's not that far away from Michael Cole
saying it's WrestleMania season. And I'm with you, I don't
know what I mean. I shouldn't say that. I don't
see what they have because if you do Rock against

(01:22:03):
Roman Reigns with a family dissension storyline, and you do
say Sena versus Undertaker, and then you have brock Lesnar
in some sort of a big match and you save
Jerrick co versus Dean Ambrose, I'm trying to think, what
would you know? What Seed might have been planned that

(01:22:25):
they go back. I mean, there's there's enough. I think
it can feel like WrestleMania, Jason, where Vince mc mann
might be sitting or going now, we're gonna be okay.
But then when you start looking past that, you know,
that's when you just start looking at this, this damaged roster.
And I mean what you bring Batista in. I mean,
I'm you know, Patisa is a big enough movie stary.
He's not gonna want to come back unless he's in

(01:22:47):
a substantial role. And I don't even know if he
wants to come back period or do.

Speaker 4 (01:22:51):
You then I don't know why you'd put him in
a substantial role.

Speaker 1 (01:22:53):
Well really, I mean, well you know, I mean the Hollywood.
He's doing well enough in Hollywood. But yeah, I mean,
I don't know that he's worth it, and I don't.

Speaker 3 (01:23:00):
I just don't think.

Speaker 1 (01:23:01):
Steve Austin, I mean, I guess if you antie up,
if you tell them for fifteen million dollars, we want
you to be the sole reason that Rustlmania thirty three
is relevant and on the map, I mean, I think
he'll listen to that kind of money if he's it's
a right opponent and the right match where he's not,
you know, expected to go crazy or get hurt, but
I don't know. Yeah, it's it's tough anyway, let's continue
this conversation, Jason on the other side of the music.

(01:23:23):
For our members, if you're not a PW Towards VIP member,
you can get details on signing up at PW Torch
dot com slash go VIP on the left side. There's
details on the online membership. On the right side of
that page, there's details on a print newsletter subscription. You
can get home delivery of the Progressing Torch newsletter packed
with exclusively I think that is uh yeah, I think

(01:23:44):
that's the end of my plugs, Jason. How can people
follow you on Twitter and any final words from you
before we move to the VIP side of things?

Speaker 4 (01:23:50):
Follow me at Pro Wrestling Net. That's at pro Wrestling Net.
And we're still looking for SmackDown correspondence tonight. If you're
listening live d otn EP Jason at gmail dot com
is where you can reach me as well. But we
do have someone that's going to be sending them in late,
so check the site later tonight at the very least
for us, smash Down bois excellent.

Speaker 1 (01:24:10):
Thank you Jason Powell from Pro Wrestling dot Net on
the other side of the music dot Net members and
PW towrs VIP members can hear us continue this conversation,
including email topics that you guys have sent in. We'll
also talk about the tremendous NXT Takeover show I am
with a number of people, including Todd Martin talking about
it with Greg Parks on moonlighting for VIP members over

(01:24:32):
the weekend. This was my favorite show of the year,
NXT Takeover. It had so many things I loved about
pro wrestling. I went in depth on it on a
long weightcolor hotline last Wednesday night. VIP members can hear that.
I know we did a lot of complaining about raw
I think for very good, justifiable reasons. I love pro
wrestling when it's done well. NXT Takeover was an example
of it. If you want to hear me, be positive

(01:24:53):
in gush and be specific about what it is about
that NXT take specially that worked what I think universally
can apply to any wrestling promotion in any era. Go
VIP and check out that Longwait tllor hotline from last
Wednesday night. Thank you again, everybody until next time.

Speaker 2 (01:25:09):
Wait Keller, I'm Chris Maitland. I'm Justin McClelland we host
Wrestling Coast to Coast, a podcast on independent wrestling.

Speaker 20 (01:25:27):
Every week, Chris and I review a different show or
talk about important topics from around the indie wrestling world.

Speaker 2 (01:25:32):
Learn about the hot underground stars and the future main eventors.
For anyone else, you can reach us at Torchcoast to
Coast at gmail dot com and me on Blue Sky
at Mind of Maitland.

Speaker 20 (01:25:42):
You can reach me at Blue Sky at Justin McClelland.

Speaker 2 (01:25:45):
Find the show on your PW torch dailycast podcast feed,
search PW Torch on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you
listen to podcasts.

Speaker 20 (01:25:53):
Also stream the latest shows on pwtorch dot com.

Speaker 1 (01:26:02):
This is PW torch dot com editor Wade Keller along
with Jason Powell from Pro Wrestling dot Net, and this
is the Membership version VIP after show for the PW
torch live cast on Tuesday, October thirteenth, two thousand and fifteen.
Let's go to the email inbox Jason here at the
live cast and get some topics here brought up by

(01:26:24):
first of all, VIP member Seamus Seamus Devin, which is
a great, great name. Can you please put some logic
from WWE's point of view on the seth Rawlins booking? Now,
that sounds like a really difficult question to start with.

Speaker 5 (01:26:38):
Jason no kidding, He says, I would have gone with
virgo O'Shaughnessy myself go ahead.

Speaker 1 (01:26:44):
Has a WWE champion ever been booked this badly? The
whole situation makes no sense to seth have heat backstage
or divince justice like him. If so, why is he
even champ? Why is he not standing up for himself?
Is there a bonus scheme going for the writer who
comes up with how to make Rowlins look as.

Speaker 3 (01:26:59):
Weak as possible? Sible each week on TV?

Speaker 1 (01:27:02):
Giving away the main event of Hell and a Cell
on free TV and having your champion pim cleanly to
a fifty year old makes fans believe that Kane is
going to be Just to make Fence think Kine will
become champion is insulting the audience as intelligent. It's beyond
obvious Rowlins is defeating Kane at hiic. The creative could
not have been worse, hence the ratings being down.

Speaker 3 (01:27:17):
The toilet.

Speaker 1 (01:27:18):
Rollins has been beat and all but one of his
last eighteen matches, he hasn't gotten the upper hand on
Raw in any feud since mid July. How bad do
ratings need to get before there's some accountability for this
appallingly repetitive and unimaginative writing, Jason, They don't dislike Seth Rollins.
I mean, I want to spell that they just don't
know that what they're doing is bad.

Speaker 5 (01:27:37):
That's the thing that's the scary part. And you would
think that at some point during this rating skid, a
light bulb would have went off, and not just with Rawlins,
but in so many different places for them, and they
would buckle down and start making some changes for the better.
I mean, I know Vince McMahon is older, but I
don't think he's forgotten everything there is to forget about booking.

(01:27:58):
And we see what Tripleakes does at the NXT level,
and I know he's not day to day, but he's
certainly involved in that process. Heavily involved. They know, between
the two of them. I don't know why we see
what we do on RAW. I don't know why they've
made Rawlins out to be so weak for the longest time,
I was convinced that they were letting their egos, Triple

(01:28:21):
Ahs and Stephanie get in the way and just kind
of neglecting the fact that, oh, yeah, there's a champion
that we're making subservient to us. And now that we
see less of them on the show Weight, I'm kind
of baffled by the whole thing. I don't know what
they're I think they I'm guessing this month, the idea
is that if we make him look so vulnerable, people
are going to think that Cain has a shot to win.

(01:28:42):
I don't think they realize. I don't think anyone wants
Kine to win.

Speaker 1 (01:28:46):
No, that's the thing. This is not like, oh, I
can't wait to see Kane get dish it out to Seth.
I think people are just ready to see Seth move
on from the thing.

Speaker 3 (01:28:54):
Kane.

Speaker 1 (01:28:55):
It's a fun little storyline if you're not trying to
draw money, you know, with the people involved, it's you know,
got it's sort of charming and entertaining in a certain
way to a certain type of fan. But no, this
is not something that that I think fans worked up emotionally.

Speaker 5 (01:29:11):
No, and you know, if this had been like let's
say this feud was taking place after hypothetically Rawlins drops
the title at WrestleMania. Yeah, okay, yeah, it's something for
Rawlins to do. I wouldn't think it was ideal, but
I would be telling people calm down. They don't dislike
Seth Rawlins now, it's just they're they're doing something different
with him because he had the title so long. But

(01:29:31):
for this to be during the title reign, Oh my gosh,
it's terrible.

Speaker 1 (01:29:35):
Oh totally no. I agree, But again, this is not
WW disliking Seth. This is kind of doing what they
what they think is best. And that's actually kind of
maybe a scarier part than a political burial, you know,
from the Monday Night War era, right, you know, something
along those lines.

Speaker 5 (01:29:53):
Which maybe we're seeing with Russev. Who knows?

Speaker 1 (01:29:55):
Yes, all right, Sam M from San Jose. I don't
know if this bothers anyone else or if it's just me,
But when Charlotte does her spear followed by leaning back
with her fists and roars, isn't that Romans moving spot.
I'm not a huge Rains fan or hater either, but
I know what they're trying to make him, and I
feel like the spear and war make Roman look weak?

Speaker 3 (01:30:14):
Is this gimmick infringement? Jason? It's so relevant question.

Speaker 5 (01:30:18):
It is, but I can't picture her doing it. That's
the thing I wish I could. I I'll pay attention
more next time, next time she wrestles, and I'm sure
i'll catch it then, But I just can't even picture
her doing it. Ton't know how closely it resembles Rains.

Speaker 3 (01:30:31):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:30:32):
Yeah, let's go ahead and go to an email question
from Ernie. He says, if possible, save this one for
the VP after show, because I remember both yours and
Jason's site.

Speaker 3 (01:30:40):
Thanks.

Speaker 5 (01:30:40):
Well, well that wait a minute, Wait a minute, I
know who this is. You have to say it right.
This is a dot net member and PW George member
Ernesto Cruz.

Speaker 1 (01:30:48):
There we go, Yes, yes, all right, very good, he said.
Dave Meltzer said last night that the reason wwb's doing
the Evolved partnership is they don't want guys going to
ROH because they don't want them getting on national TV
before where they bring them in and to be in
a promotion where they might merchandise them. And it seems
to stem from Kevin Owen situation that Piste fins off.
They apparently want the word out that if you want
to be looked at by WWE, you'll go to evolve.

(01:31:10):
Have you guys heard anything of the sort as to
this being the reason for ww doing this? And let's
have a moment of silence for us men. Now that
Playboy has gone PG and no longer posting nudes. What
a travesty. Yeah, that was a topic on KFA and
today too. Jason, Well, now we.

Speaker 5 (01:31:27):
Can honestly say we read it for the article you.

Speaker 1 (01:31:29):
Have to or the ads. I guess it's what Yeah,
the uh. I think WWE's overreacting a bit here. I mean,
I think the idea that oh there might be some
merchandise or some national TV exposure. It's like they need
to get their house in order and stop worry about
worrying about controlling the world in every aspect of the industry.
I just don't see this as a problem that needed
to be fixed.

Speaker 5 (01:31:50):
Yeah, this is when we've talked about many times. Bence
McMahon completely overreacted to Kevin Owens as Kevin Stein having
a merchandise deal with Ring of Honor through the company
that they use, and he found out about it. I
think Mattel probably was upset, which is why Vince was upset.
I don't know why you couldn't just explain to them that, look,
it's not even as Kevin Owens, it's as his real name.

(01:32:12):
It's before he signed with us. It was out of
our control. This is good for Evolve. I mean, I'm
happy for Gabe Sepalski and company that they're going to
have access or have some sort of working relationship. They
have Sammy Zain coming in for untelevised appearances this weekend,
and that can only help with the with the gate
for the Evolve shows. But I don't really understand why

(01:32:33):
WWE is taking this approach. I know, I think the
idea is that they may send some talent that to
them occasionally, some of the greener guys, you get some worker.
I don't exactly know how it's going to work. I
don't even know if either side knows exactly how it's going. Yeah,
but don't you have a performance center. I mean, I'm
all for getting guys out there in front of different crowds,

(01:32:54):
and there's only so many guys that can you know,
they have so many guys under contract now and only
so many live events and slots on those live events.
So if that's the idea, I get it. But I
know triple hs in the past at least, I don't
know if it's daydreaming or if it's something he was
very serious about. But he talked about having a single A,
a double A, a triple A type approach. And this

(01:33:14):
was way back before NXT really started taking off, and
so I don't know if that's if this is something
that over time that WW will take that approach and evolve.
This evil partnership may not last all that long, or
if this is just kind of a different way of
doing that where it's not directly you know, you're not

(01:33:34):
it's your talent, but they're just working for someone else
rather than a double A for instance.

Speaker 1 (01:33:40):
Right, I just I mean, if they think this is
good for talent development, then do it. Don't do it
because you don't want somebody to be seen on Sinclair
Broadcasting because your control freaks.

Speaker 3 (01:33:52):
So that's that's my issue. You know that that's my
issue here.

Speaker 5 (01:33:58):
And I don't step into monopoly territory if you start
taking that approach of trying to direct talent away from
I mean, I guess there's another party involved, but seems
pretty sleazy to me to try if that. I don't
know that they're trying to send that message, but if
that is what they're trying to send, I have a
problem with that. I mean, honestly, what do they care?

Speaker 1 (01:34:19):
I know, I mean, honestly, there's so many things that
they should be more worried about than ro o wah.

Speaker 3 (01:34:24):
And again it might be wrong.

Speaker 1 (01:34:26):
I mean, maybe they would honestly say it's really not
related to ROH and the exposure they get and some
licensing deal they might sign before we get them under contract.
I mean, I'm not saying it isn't sort of relevant that, Hey,
we don't want our stars that we sign and promote
on our television to be out there with toy deals

(01:34:46):
that have that cause an issue with our toy company going, hey,
wait a second, we thought we had an exclusive on
Kevin Owens and we don't. I mean, I get that
being a corporate headache, but it's not a top ten
problem for what they're going through right now.

Speaker 5 (01:34:59):
And you do an exclusive on Kevin Owens. So that's
the thing that gets me way.

Speaker 1 (01:35:02):
That's a good point. Or the guy who looks like
this or our audience. So yeah, I don't know. I
mean it's it's a good question, and I hope that
uh yeah, I just I don't want them to to
to be overdoing this, all right. This is for Wade
and Jason nathan A. Last night, when Kane called Hunter

(01:35:25):
and Stephanie, he advised that Sena.

Speaker 3 (01:35:27):
Had just had just watched Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:35:29):
He advised that Sena just had a match with Dolf
not once to triple Ah ask who won. Is this
basically what sums up WWE? Also, are we not supposed
to think that the faces of WWE, Hunter and steph
have no idea what's happening on Raw, not their own app,
not Twitter, nobody texting them nothing. I feel insulted weekly. Also,
Roman Rains is just brutal. Why are they What are

(01:35:52):
they doing again? My head hurts. I usually email from
the office, but never made it in probably from the
suffering of.

Speaker 3 (01:35:58):
Raw last night.

Speaker 1 (01:35:59):
Oh man, that's bad when you're missing work because of
robbing so awful. Yeah, the whole Stephanie thing was just crazy.
I mean it was just so corny.

Speaker 5 (01:36:12):
It was just beyond dumb. I mean, I guess is
that the part of the show. We can then guarantee
was written by the seventy year old.

Speaker 3 (01:36:21):
Man or the people who write for him.

Speaker 5 (01:36:24):
Yep, I guess. I mean it's wow. I a nice
phone for Kine. I mean, I don't know if they're
holding out for one of the phone companies to a
brokery deal or something, but I can't even say I've
seen a model a phone like that in the years,
So that was pretty wild. I did they have to

(01:36:45):
go out of their way like find one of those
phones somewhere or I mean, where do you find a
phone like that these days?

Speaker 3 (01:36:51):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:36:51):
No, I don't Well, I don't know those bins at
best Buy where people recycle.

Speaker 5 (01:36:55):
All the stuff goodwill something.

Speaker 3 (01:36:58):
Yeah, maybe no it was.

Speaker 1 (01:37:00):
And you know, the idea of wins and losses not mattering,
I mean, that's that is a good example that Nathan
brings up with things that WWE, Vincent Matt just don't
cross their mind. Can be a free, useful tool to
get people more invested in the program, and they just
it doesn't cross their mind that Like somebody would go, oh,
who won? I mean, like, oh, how did how did
they do?

Speaker 6 (01:37:18):
It?

Speaker 19 (01:37:18):
Was?

Speaker 3 (01:37:18):
Did did see a retainer? Did don't win.

Speaker 1 (01:37:20):
Not Granted, the phone connection was bad and all that,
but it's just one of those little things that I
do think does add up over time and hurts, uh
hurts people's investment in the product. Thanks for downloading today's show.
Take it to the next level with a VIP membership.
Get shows like this The Way Killer Prossing Podcast, Weight
Killer Prosing post Show, and the PW Torch daily casts

(01:37:41):
on our PW Torch VIP podcast feed with ads and
plugs removed from the shows for a streamlined listening experience.
And also hear the VIP exclusive shows that I host
with Rich Fan and Todd Martin, Everything with Rich Fan
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here in TWE twenty two and enjoy all the benefits,

(01:38:02):
all the bonus content and the ad free listening experience.
Pw toorts dot com slash go viip Okay Anthony from Australia.
I haven't seen the ratings yet, but if any show
doesn't deserve to be higher than a two point zero,
it's that I felt it was just about the worst
show of the year, and that's saying something. One thing
I picked up was perhaps some seed planting for Sena

(01:38:23):
versus Taker at Mania when they referenced the pat on
the back Taker gave him after his match against Angle.
Do you think that was intentional or a coincidence seeing
as though it was in the same arena. Okay, so
when he thoughts on Sammy's age, surely if they had
big plans for me and he was healthy, they went'
risk it by lett him perform on an NONWWE show.
Am I missing something here?

Speaker 5 (01:38:41):
Go ahead, Jason, Yes, you're missing something. He's not performing
is he's not wrestling. He's not hasn't been medically cleared
yet as far as I know, He's just making and
he's going to sign autographs before the show, and then
he's going to do in ring appearances where he just
basically cuts a promo and that's not even going to
be televised. So no wrestling for Sammy's ain this weekend.

Speaker 3 (01:39:02):
And how about the possible hint of Sena Taker.

Speaker 5 (01:39:06):
I didn't look at it that way, but I know
Twitter kind of lit up I noticed at that time,
so I think others were reading into it. What did
you think of that one.

Speaker 1 (01:39:16):
Yeah, I didn't think a lot of it, other than
the fact that I do think there's a real chance
we see Seena Undertaker at Mania. Yeah, but I mean
they planted seeds of Sena Rains even more strongly a
while back, and so yeah, I mean I'm not willing
to draw a strong conclusion from it, but you know,
it's one of those things you just kind of make
note of and put a check mark next to in
case you want to make the case that wwb's actually

(01:39:38):
been planning some things, you know, like actually planning some
things ahead of time and planting seeds to reward people
who pay close attention.

Speaker 5 (01:39:46):
Well, he I mean, we know Vince McMahon likes to
book at least a big you know, the meaningful matches
of Mania a year out. And not saying he doesn't
never change his mind, but I'm sure he's thinking about Mania,
but I think he needs to be thinking more about
his day to day product at this point at anything.
If she had and Rains do wrestle at WrestleMania, is

(01:40:07):
the stipulation going to be that the winner gets to
be the face of the charity work. Yea, Yes, the
almost will consist of I like boobs more than you do.

Speaker 3 (01:40:17):
Yeah, oh there you go.

Speaker 1 (01:40:19):
Yeah did you think, by the way I was gonna say,
did you think the uh they toned down the Susan G.
Coleman thing like a lot more than you expected last night?

Speaker 5 (01:40:29):
You know, I it was toned down compared to the
week before, But I wondered with the week before was
kind of the launch of it on raw, So I
don't I didn't read too much into it. They didn't
have I don't think they had any breast cancer survivors present,
but that I don't know that they did last year
every week that it occurred. So I didn't read too

(01:40:52):
much into it.

Speaker 1 (01:40:53):
Yeah, yeah, I'm not saying we should read a lot
into it, but but it was it was at least nice.

Speaker 3 (01:40:58):
It wasn't amped up as much.

Speaker 1 (01:41:00):
I you know, I don't know that we should give
see him Punk credit for, you know, casting shame on
Susan G.

Speaker 3 (01:41:05):
Coleman for their.

Speaker 1 (01:41:05):
High, high paid uh CEO and the controversial nature of
how they distribute their money. But it was just it
was kind of nice to not just feel completely drowning
in corporate Aren't we wonderful? Aren't we a wonderful corporation
messages throughout the show.

Speaker 5 (01:41:19):
Yeah, do we know of I mean because somebody brought
up I thought on Twitter that last week when he
tweeted that that I thought he didn't watch wrestling, and
my response was basically, well, be good of men, But
how do we know he wasn't watching the NFL game
because you know, Pink is all over there as well.

Speaker 1 (01:41:34):
All right, let's uh, let's go to Brian Alston, Phoenix, Arizona,
twenty four year prosing Torch subscriber. He goes, I heard
a rumor about the TNA World Title Series tournament. I
checked the torch in dot net, didn't see it.

Speaker 3 (01:41:45):
Is it true?

Speaker 1 (01:41:45):
The majority of the matches, including the finals, will take
place in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil.

Speaker 3 (01:41:50):
Thanks and have a good day, good one.

Speaker 5 (01:41:55):
I don't know how this is going to work. I
don't know. I mean, they're they're going to India. Their
talent is being informed, and you know it's not a
secret that they're going over there. Believe it's the week
after Thanksgiving, and I assume they're going to tape some
television there. They've canceled their house shows for the end
of October. I think there was one date in November

(01:42:15):
as well. They had some kakammy excuse that it was
just it was basically some issue that wasn't ticket sales,
but it was actually ticket sales. I think we all
know that. And Dixie Carter is still out there tweeting
about old Miss football rather than commenting on her house
shows being canceled. So the reason I bring all this

(01:42:35):
up is I don't know that they're going to have enough.
I don't know if they have enough in the can
to get through. I'm guessing they do. It's I mean,
I didn't know what they were going to air last week,
and to their credit, that was a better than expected show.
Was I went in expecting the worst and it was
nice to see them kind of shake things up, get

(01:42:58):
Josh and the Pope out of the studio that they're
usually in and put them. It was a little bit
dated looking type of setup that they had for this,
but it was new and it came at the same
time as this tournament, so it felt like this was
something that it felt like a big deal, and so
I thought they did a better job. It certainly a
better job than I anticipated going into the show. I

(01:43:20):
was expecting the worst and got in some ways some
of the best of TNA. They really stepped up and
did a nice job. But I just don't know how
they're going to be able to see this through to
the end. Certainly some of the talent they're using it
has already moved on, and then you know, who knows
who's going to leave before this thing is over. The
logic is still just completely flawed. We didn't want to

(01:43:43):
be tied up in court and not have a champion
for months, So here's a tournament that's going to keep
us without a champion for months.

Speaker 1 (01:43:49):
I think it really did diminish the value of the
championship within their own narrative to have Matt Hardy triumphantly
win his first world title and then just so easily
give it up. I mean I almost would rather just
seen like Matt Hardy set up a ring in his
backyard and tape Impact with a handheld camera defending the
championship with some North Carolina locals. I mean, then have

(01:44:11):
them give up their world championship. I mean, I just yeah,
I just I think this is the moment Matt Hardy
won the championship, Now that he gave it up, sort
of feels to me like the end of the potential
end as we look back historically of TNA in this
country as someone as having something of a continuum. I mean,
it almost feels like the empty arena a wa era.

Speaker 5 (01:44:34):
And it is I mean, this was I mean, they're
trying to say like they've had this planned all along.
And I think talking with someone today about this in
TNA who was left in the dark, as most people
in TNA are with these things, his guess was that
this was like a fallback plan. And you know, they
had this was taped for a one night only series
and if things had gone the way they hoped or

(01:44:55):
they were going to be able to do more TV tapings,
that this would have aired as a one night only
series pay per view event. And now they're just kind
of forced to take this approach. And again, I give
them credit for the creativity they showed, but yeah, I mean,
it makes Hardy look kind of dopey for giving up
a title. It makes Dixie look dopey for going without
a champion for months after saying that's the goal of

(01:45:16):
this was to not I it's kind of odd that
that's when they decided to trot out Billy Corgan to
be part of this thing. And I think it makes
G and A look really stupid that EC three is
the cause of all this, yet there is in the tournament.

Speaker 1 (01:45:32):
I know, yeah, I mean it's it's a debacle of
of circumstance. It's a debacle brought about by circumstances that
are obviously less than ideal. But you know, they're filling
out a contract on a network that it doesn't seem
like they have any chance of remaining with.

Speaker 3 (01:45:52):
And I don't think that.

Speaker 1 (01:45:53):
They're especially interested in spending a lot of money in
any way. They just want to keep payroll for the
office staff as best they can and fill out this contract.
It's sort of like when Halla Nash said to Bischoff,
you know, we're going to do what we're required to
do with nothing more. I kind of look at T
and A now just looking at Destination America going you know,
it might be the only pragmatic way that they can

(01:46:15):
produce TV, But it also almost seems like a snub, like, well, okay,
if you're going to do this to us and treat
us this way, we're just going to fill us out
with a bunch of back content and do our best
to frame it in a way that our fans don't
know what's going on. But I mean, I don't think
they're positioning themselves well ratings wise, Jason to sell themselves
to another network if this format in just that moment

(01:46:37):
of the trumphant moment of Matt already winning the title
and giving it up does erode viewership, and I am
interested to see in three weeks where their viewership is
with this.

Speaker 5 (01:46:45):
Yeah, they got a nice bump last week, which was
kind of surprising, just because he had the NXT special
going on that night, and I assume there were Baseball
playoff games because it seems like there are every night
of the week now, so I was pleasantly surprised to
see it go up. I guess it certainly burns their
hardcore viewers that spent the fifty dollars to see Bound

(01:47:07):
for Glory, but there's so few of them that I
don't know that there's going to be that outrage that
I spent fifty dollars. And now that you have this
weird championship situation, if you're only watching Impact, you didn't
get to see how you didn't get that roller coaster
ride of Hardy won and no, now they're taking it away.

(01:47:27):
You're just going, Oh, so there was some goofball situation
and now there's a tournament to crown a new champion.
It's clunky, but they made the best of it. I
enjoyed that show more than Raw for instance.

Speaker 1 (01:47:38):
Yeah, well, we're talking about somebody who couldn't even get
into going to work today because they were so they
hated Russell Rock hurt them so much.

Speaker 5 (01:47:46):
It'd be nice if we could do that.

Speaker 1 (01:47:48):
Oh wow, yeah, I mean yes, it would be nice.
Sometimes when the show is so bad, you just get
to skip the next day. Anyway, Jason, I got to run.
I appreciate the email people for sending in some fun
range of topics. Jason will talk to you next time
next week.

Speaker 5 (01:48:07):
Sounds great.

Speaker 3 (01:48:08):
All right, thanks everybody.

Speaker 1 (01:48:19):
Invite you to email the show with feedback or questions
or comments. That email address is Wade Keller Podcast at
petwtorch dot com. That's Wadekeller Podcast at PW torch dot com.
Also welcome your feedback on Twitter. You can follow us
on Twitter at PW torch and follow me at the
Wade Keller That's at PW torch and at the Wade Keller.

Speaker 5 (01:48:41):
Searching for more great pro wrestling talk, then join me
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Each week you'll hear the latest news and analysis from
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(01:49:03):
all your favorite secondary apps, or visit us directly at
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Speaker 1 (01:49:12):
Thanks for listening to our podcast. Did you know we
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