10 YRS AGO FLAGSHIP: Keller & Powell discuss proper heel/face roles for each Shield member, Daniel Bryan, Raw analysis, more

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Speaker 2 (01:06):
Now, PW Torch and Spreaker bring you the Wade Keller
Pro Wrestling Podcast ten years ago.

Speaker 1 (01:16):
This week on the flagship, Jason Powell from pro slink
dot Net joined me Wade Keller with a look at
Raw from the night before with live callers. Then in
the previously VP exclusive after show, Jason and I discussed
the proper heel or face roles for each member of
the Shield, which is fun to look back on ten
years ago. Where did we think Dean Ambrose best fit?
So that's rollins Roman Rains. Turns out they've all played

(01:37):
both roles for extended periods. How does our prediction on
how they would play each of those roles as healer
face match up to the journey they've been on. Also,
we answered a bunch of email questions on our arrange
of topics, including Daniel Bryant. So let's get to it.
This originally live streamed on October twenty seventh, twenty fifteen,
and it is today's Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast ten

(01:57):
years ago flagship flashback for Sunday Osober twenty sixth, twenty
twenty five. Welcome to the PW Torch Livecast. I am
Wade Keller, editor and publisher of the Pro Wrestling Torch

(02:20):
weekly newsletter launched in nineteen eighty seven, and also Pwtorch
dot Com totally redesigned from the ground up website starting
this month and PW torchvip dot com for our members
and also host of this the PW Torch Live Cast,
available live streaming Monday through Friday at different times. Check

(02:41):
listings at PW torchlivecast dot com. That is the website
where you stream this show live. But you can also,
of course, as most of you do, listen when it's
convenient for you on demand. It is live at just
past five Eastern on Tuesday, October twenty seventh, two thousand fifteen,
and I am joined on Tuesdays by Jason Powell from

(03:05):
Pro Wrestling dot Net. Jason, Welcome to the program.

Speaker 3 (03:09):
Hey Wade, good to be here.

Speaker 1 (03:10):
Good to be here too. Just want to acknowledge the
death of Flip Saunders. Jason, you and I you a
little bit, well, a lot less than me over the years,
but at times very intensely a fan of the Timberwolves
and certainly the Minnesota sports scene. Morning his death on
his death that was announced on Sunday afternoon from cancer.

Speaker 3 (03:32):
Yeah, you know, I mean, I've definitely lost interest in
the Wolves over the years and trying to kind of
get back into them with the recent drafts that they've
had and some of the moves they've made even the
time I was out of the loop. I mean, Flip
was just so engaging with like the local media that
I've listened to a lot of local sports radio, and

(03:53):
it's just like he kind of felt like he knew
the guy because he just he was so different than
most of your executive or coach types. And just really
sad news.

Speaker 4 (04:03):
I mean, just.

Speaker 3 (04:05):
Not completely stunning given some of the recent developments, but man,
things changed quickly from you know, he'll be sidelined for
a little bit, two could be a year, and then
unfortunately that the sad news on Sunday.

Speaker 1 (04:16):
And I noticed all along nobody ever said anything good.
You know, there wasn't anybody who said, I talked to
him on the phone, he's he's, you know, putting up
a good fight. You know all of that, and you know,
it turned out he just hadn't been talking to anybody
on the phone because he had been not able to
talk since early September. I don't even know how many
details have come out at this point.

Speaker 2 (04:34):
But yeah, it's sad.

Speaker 1 (04:36):
Bruce Mitchell and I were at the Timber with Scrimmage
when he came to town before he went to Waterloo, Iowa.
For the National Hall of Fame in July, and we
sat in media row right courtside and spent the scrimmage.
It was Flip coaching one half of the Wolves against
his son Ryan Saunders, who coached the other half of
the Wolves, and Bruce and I were like three four
feet from Flip during the whole scrimmage. And it was

(04:57):
just a few weeks later the cancer was announced. So yes,
our thoughts and sympathies go out to his family especially,
and it's just amazing how much this town identified and
had a bond with him because of the things you said. Jason,
and I bring it up because I wanted to because
I'm a big Wolves fan and every once in a
while I add a personal note to the show. But
number two and I thought last night's Raw was a

(05:19):
definite improvement on what we had seen in recent weeks.
But I thought of to the first segment, Triple Ah
and Stephanie come out once again and are announcing the
format of the show, and at the same time they're
endorsing Seth Rollins, who's the top heel, And it struck
me when I was kind of commenting on it last
night for the VIP members in my review of Raw,

(05:41):
the way Keller hotline how much it how much Flips Saunders,
and how people are just in this market who are
Wolves fans and everybody can imagine their own sports team.
Sometimes there's an owner, a GM, a coach who you
identify with the team almost more than the players. And

(06:03):
I think that's how people felt about the Wolves, as
much as they have a bond with Kevin Garnett. And
I'm sure there's some people are bigger fans of Wiggins
at this point or whatever, but Flip rivaled anybody when
it came to the identification of the Wolves.

Speaker 2 (06:13):
Triple H and Stephanie on Raw.

Speaker 1 (06:15):
Also continued to be the face of the company in
a way that I think continues to be destructive. And
I think the way people feel about how much an
executive and coach like Flip Saunders may they were on
a ride with him through the ups and downs of
the Wolves, and he had assembled this team that was
number that was worse than the league last year, but

(06:36):
had assembled these great pieces, and you were kind you
were rooting for the team, but you're also rooting for
the coach in GM, and I think that's one of
the reasons you know, one of many reasons people are
so devastated in this town who are fans of the
Wolves WWE, they continue, I think for the star power,
the branding, the mcmahonname, putting Hunter and Stephanie out there,
and I thought it got the show off to a

(06:56):
rough start because I thought, Wow, this just signals things
aren't changing. Because I really thought once they got past
this Helena cell on Sunday with some really bad ratings,
that they would kind of hit the reset button and
maybe shake some things up. So while I was disappointed
to see Hunter and stuff come out, and it was
even made worse in a way by them smiling as

(07:17):
babyfaces along with the cancer segment that they did, where
again there's no consist consistency to their characters. As the
show went on, minus John Cena used to drag him
from the mix, and you reslought some guys. I felt
that by the end of the night that this definitely
gave off the vibe of some new things happening. It
almost felt kind of like that day after WrestleMania feeling

(07:40):
where you're looking at people in a fresh way again.
How do you grade them on that front?

Speaker 3 (07:44):
Jason, Oh, I give them an optimistic be because you know,
you had the weird line from Hunter about how Helena
Cell showcased the next Generation or something like that. I
just did a double take when he said that, Like
it was headlined by Undertaker and Brock Lesner and you know,
there's so many other things that.

Speaker 5 (08:04):
You can't yeah, and.

Speaker 2 (08:07):
Title shot right, and so I.

Speaker 3 (08:10):
Was like, I don't know what he's talking about. But
I think they were kind of forced into this, you know,
just because of John cen his absence, and because they
don't have access to Taker and Lessner as much as
I'm sure they'd like to, and the Randy Orton being gone,
and so I think they're trying to put their own
spin on it. And I you know, who knows what
show we would have seen if every, if all the
major players could have been there. But I liked what

(08:32):
they did. I felt like the tournament set up that
they did was was kind of a band aid. You know,
I'm as much as I enjoyed last night's show, all
of the issues are still there and I'm very curious
to see what they do next week. You know, the
tournament kind of gave them an opportunity to take some
of those matches that really, if you take the tournament away,

(08:53):
they don't mean anything, but they gave them meeting by
by incorporating them into this making them qualify our matches
for the Boor Way.

Speaker 1 (09:01):
I also think when they say, you know, this is
the new generation, up, up and coming talent, I'm not
sure what the average age was Jason of the talent
in the ring in the main event last night, but
Dolf Ziggler mid thirties, Roman Reigns early thirties. Those were
the two baby faces in the mix. Alberto del Rio,

(09:22):
I'm gonna look up his age right now, thirty eight.

Speaker 2 (09:28):
So I just don't know that, especially in.

Speaker 1 (09:31):
The case of del Rio and Ziggler, you can start
talking about a new generation run when that those are
your contenders in the main event slot so to me,
and Kevin Owens counts, but he's also.

Speaker 2 (09:47):
Early thirties, you know, so yeah, thirty one.

Speaker 1 (09:49):
Thirty one, So you have four guys in their thirties,
one mid Actually kind of what's Dolf Zigler's He late thirties.
It depends on how you define late thirties, but he's
thirty five, so no matter how you define it, he's
mid thirties, but del Rio and Dolf thirty five, thirty eight,
and then a couple guys who are thirty thirty one.
I mean, yes, there's some fresh faces. Del Rio has

(10:11):
been away. I think that's good. I just don't know
that it fits the definition of hey, we're really investing
in the new young people when those are kind of
your top four contenders. That said, I did like the
reslotting of the talent. I thought Roman Rains had a
good night. I thought that Seth Rollins continue to be
entertaining in his role, But I don't think it's that
character should be the top heel world champion because he

(10:35):
still has kind of a parent's childlike relationship on air
with Hunter and Steph that I think undercuts his upside.

Speaker 3 (10:42):
Yeah, you know, I think his time is coming now.
I mean I think now that Rains is number one contender,
I'm guessing sooner rather than later, whether it's Survivor series
or sometimes shortly after he ends up getting the title.
I think the latest that occurs is WrestleMania. I mean,
all signs really due point to him taking that championship
at some point, and I'm guessing before Wade because I

(11:04):
mean it books to me like they're still working toward
cripple action seth rollins as much as anything at wrestled
Nannia right now.

Speaker 1 (11:12):
I agree, yep, yeah, I mean we'll see how things
go after Mania. I want to go ahead and go
to our first commercial break and here from our sponsors.
When we come back, we'll start taking your phone calls
and get your thoughts on last night's raw, and certainly
we're open to here about other things. Helen us Cell
Sunday night, not that long ago, your thoughts on the
latest developments at NXT TNA, whatever you want to talk about,

(11:33):
give us a call, although I have a feeling most
will be about Ron Helena Sell.

Speaker 2 (11:36):
Let's go to a break.

Speaker 1 (11:37):
When we come back, more of Jason Powal from Progressing
dot net and my analysis along with your phone calls.
Six four six seven to one, nine to eight two
eight is the number to call if you want to
get in line on the phone banks. You can support
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(11:58):
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PW torch vip and you can also upgrade to other
tiers and receive even more benefits through Patreon. All right,

(12:26):
We're back live at four to twelve Central five twelve
Eastern on Tuesday, October twenty seventh, twenty fifteen. I'm Wade
Keller from PW torch dot Com and the PW Torch
app and I'm with Jason Powell from Pro Wrestling dot Net,
a leading provider of news and views on the world
of professional wrestling. It's always great to have him joining
us on Tuesday's Thursday, by the way, I'll be back.

(12:48):
And Matt McCarthy x WWE Creative Team member, host of
the Wewatch Wrestling podcast, stand up comedian. You might have
seen him in commercials for your local cable company. He
is a man who wears many hats, but one of
them is huge, huge wrestling fan who has been in
the trenches with bensuck Man and the creative team, and

(13:10):
he'll be by. He is a semi regular here on
the PW Torch Live cast, and we look forward to
getting his perspective on the shake up, the reshuffling I
guess of some of the feuds and talent now headed
into Survivor series. So join us live, four Central, five Eastern.
That's a half hour earlier than our long standing start time,
and that'll be coming up again this coming Thursday in

(13:32):
two days. Let's go to the phone lines now, and
let's begin with four to seven eight. You're up first.
Please state your name and where you're calling.

Speaker 2 (13:37):
From the way.

Speaker 6 (13:39):
Wel from Georgia.

Speaker 2 (13:40):
Hey Doro, I'll go ahead. What have you got for us?

Speaker 6 (13:43):
Yes, I was.

Speaker 7 (13:45):
I have two questions. My first question is last night
it was a pretty good row with the action and stuff.
But I have one question. Do you feel like they
killed Dean Ambrose's character by making him looking like a
glorified cheerleader. I know he's been like a cheerleader for
the past few weeks, but the raw Ras speech that

(14:07):
he gave to Roman Rains beforehand, did that feel like
they killed his character? Being that he's supposed to be
lutatic French and my second question is I forgot my
second question.

Speaker 1 (14:26):
Hold on, well that's your first One'll come back to you, Jason.
Where is Dean Ambrose right now as playing off of
Roman Reigns kind of being his play, kind of player,
coach and friend rooting him to win the championship?

Speaker 2 (14:38):
Is this good or bad for his character?

Speaker 3 (14:40):
I you know, I'm curious to set where it goes. I
don't fine with it right now. I think he is
a good He's a very good talker. That's certainly an
area where Rain struggles, and so he gets to cover
a little bit of that ground for Roman. And at
the same time, I don't know where this is going.
I don't know if Ambrose is long term going to
be content being the cheerleader, if there's going to be

(15:01):
some sort of falling out between the two. And you know,
that's why I'm hesitant to say Rain's wins assuming that
the matches at Survivor Series is because Ambrose is a
wild card. I mean, his character, as he said, is
the lunatic fringe. Is there? Are they setting up something
some sort of a falling out between the two now?
Are they saving that for down the road? I mean,
I think it's only a matter of time, but I

(15:22):
just don't know when that will be.

Speaker 1 (15:23):
I hope it's like two years from now. I mean,
I just I want something to be long term the
way it used to be done. I'm not holding my
breath for that. But I mean, if Rains has a
title run and Dean is kind of his gatekeeper and
they play that up for a long time, I think
it can end up meaning something when one of them
goes heal and again, if they have to pull the

(15:44):
trigger on Rains going heel first, and that's part of
the plan, that's fine. But I don't want them, just
for lack of building up quality opponents elsewhere in the pipeline,
to just kind of prematurely rush into a breakup between
the two of them. We've just seen that so often
over the years, and it just wasn't always that way.
It's okay to have two people be friends in wrestling
for a long time, because I think every year that

(16:06):
goes by that they're aligned exponentially, it means more when
they break up. Darrell, do you remember your second.

Speaker 7 (16:13):
Question for us, Yes, with Seth Rollins. Now that they've
passed with the corkiness with Caine, do you feel like
making him and leaving him on his own and letting
him take more control and talk more can strengthen his character?
Because I feel like should keep the title until WrestleMania,

(16:33):
and I think that he's the bench worker out of
all the bunts today. And do you feel that just
leaving him on his own right now and stop putting
him with foolishness like Kine or with Jay and J
and let him grow more can strengthen his character all
the way to Rasslemania.

Speaker 2 (16:49):
Cool? Thy, Thanks appreciate it. What do you think, Jason?

Speaker 3 (16:52):
So he just having him fly solo without without Hunter
and Stephanie was at the gist of.

Speaker 1 (16:58):
It, or Kane or J and J security are the
that's who he specifically mentioned.

Speaker 3 (17:03):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I got a kick out of
Jay and J. They've been out of the picture for
a while. I'm not in a big, you know, big
rush to see them come back. But I guess we've
made it this far with Hunter and Stephanie. Let's just
let the damn thing play out. But you know, because
it's going somewhere, it's it's certain b pointing toward Wrestlmania,
and so I guess I am ready just to see

(17:25):
that after all this time play itself out. But if
it weren't for that match possibility, if Hunter just was
at a point where he was done wrestling, I'd say, yeah,
I'd say get them away from him and then let
him become his own man. I liked you know, it
was nice to see him get a clean win Overcaine
on Sunday. It kind of feels too little, too late,
but you know, there I was last night when they

(17:46):
had to stare down Rains and Rawlins. I found myself
really looking forward to that matchup.

Speaker 1 (17:52):
I thought Rains and Kevin Owens had a nice moment
last night too. I thought the crowd looked at that
and said, that's a fight we want to see.

Speaker 3 (17:58):
Oh for sure, Yeah, they that's Owens is a guy
that I didn't think he lost anything by losing the match.
I just think it's something where people are focused on
the winner more so than who lost. And so I'm
sure there's going to be some grumbling from Olwens fans
about that, but I thought he had a really nice night,
you know, first the match with the sorrow and then
I really creative finish too. I liked the way he

(18:19):
was going for his finisher and Rains came down and
hit his own finisher instead to get the win in
that match. And you know, hopefully that's one that when
the time comes for those two to face off, people
are going to forget that this this even occurred, This
four way even occurred.

Speaker 1 (18:32):
Let's go to Brian from Minneapolis caller number two VF
you remember Brian. Thanks for Colin.

Speaker 2 (18:36):
What have you got for us?

Speaker 8 (18:38):
Thanks so much, guys, Wade, you've been talking about it,
and with the recent thing that happened last night, basically
with Roman Reigns taking on Seth Rollins for the championship,
you're always talking about giving him a chance and Jason
just talked about letting it just get through. Is that
the methodology they run where they just kind of keep
leading you on with the carrot until eventually you've gone
so far down the trail you have to go to

(19:00):
the next city as opposed to going back to where
you started, or just you know, completely deserting the idea
because like you gotta keep telling me, I'm going to
get a payoff, But I can't think of a time
in the last five years I've been watching wrestling again
where I've gotten a payoff that's been years in the making.
Outside of The Rock and John Cena and The Rock
and people like Brock Lesnar are seem to be the

(19:20):
only exceptions to the rule who get lots of planning.
Like Brock said in his interview, he sits down with
Vince and wants a clear idea of what him and
his character are going to do in their next storyline.
I don't think that happens for someone like dul Seigler
or anyone else. So this idea of planning and then
sticking to a plan.

Speaker 6 (19:37):
Just seems so.

Speaker 8 (19:39):
It hasn't happened in years. It just doesn't happen anything.
It's very if there is a long term plan, they're
impulsively going to just go to something when the moment
calls for it, like sting at Survivor series last year.
This legend comes for the first time ever to alter
the course of WWE as they say, only to have
the authority reinstitute it a couple of weeks or a
few weeks later completely wash it away. So where is

(20:02):
there beddness? Why should I keep giving WWE my money
and the benefit of the doubt? Can you give me
one example in the last five years where they have
planted a seed, let it germinate on its own, and
then actually had it sprout and successfully cultivated a cash
growing crop out of it.

Speaker 2 (20:19):
Are you a.

Speaker 1 (20:19):
Little mad at us? It sounds like there's a little
hostility towards us place you are.

Speaker 8 (20:24):
No, no, no, no, I hear it from everyone. It's
actually not just you guys are a okay, it's not
just it's not way adjacent at all. You guys are
a lot of people do it. And I keep hearing
this quantification of you know, let's give the McMahon's convince
the benefit of the doubt. It's like, when is he
ever showing you something like, when's the last time he's
done its? Keep giving this old man. No.

Speaker 1 (20:46):
I can't get you, Brian, Jason, I've come a conclusion
he's mad at you, not me, So go ahead with
your answer, Jason.

Speaker 8 (20:52):
Well, I was.

Speaker 3 (20:52):
Point to there's not many instances. I mean, I think
by and larger correct most of them involved. I think
gets more excited about booking his part timers than he
does his regulars. So there's there's instances with them. But
when it comes to just the today's stars, I would
say rawlins winning you know, winning money in the bank
and cashing in played out in a pretty big way

(21:14):
and has been somewhat successful. I think it could have
been a lot more successful had they played their cards differently.
So that's one I'm trying to think there was gosh, wait,
go ahead, I know there's another one. It'll come back
to me.

Speaker 2 (21:28):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (21:28):
Well, And I think when it comes to Seth and
Hunter specifically, which I think is Brian brought I think
Brian brought that up at the beginning too, there does
come a point where you do think they're far enough
into something that, if it's not just the most awful
idea ever, you sort of think, all right, yeah, let's
at least see that through. In a way, you're kind
of rooting for them to do something that they don't

(21:50):
have a.

Speaker 2 (21:50):
Good track record of doing.

Speaker 1 (21:52):
It's not so much saying that's going to happen based
on history, as much as I think with this, with
as much as they've invested in it and where they
are right now, maybe don't rush out of it and
go ahead and in this instance play it out. And
I think that's what you're saying, Jason, when it came to.

Speaker 9 (22:08):
That need an extra dose of positivity in your wrestling podcasts,
will come join me Alan frel Over in the Progress
Paradise at Peterbo Torch VIP as we mask on the
bright side of wrestling and focus on some of the
great matches and shows from around the world, be it
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(22:31):
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Speaker 5 (23:12):
See you in the Paradise, Yeah, and Daniel Bryan I mean,
it took him a long time to you'll go with it,
but we got a pretty damn good payoff at the
Wrestlemani where he won the championship.

Speaker 3 (23:25):
So I mean there's I think overall Brind's onto something,
but I mean, they're certainly interesting.

Speaker 8 (23:30):
Question to add to that, guys, My first is to
Daniel Bryant. We might have gotten a payoff as fans
who enjoyed his work, but the company, the business, the
actual financials, they took a hit. I mean that's I mean,
they were denying money from the fans and merchandise and
appearances and all of it. They would rather be defiant
and then actually get in and make money. And my
second thing is you were just talking about it with

(23:52):
with part timers in brock Lesner. Again he puts it,
puts so much effort into them, but again they get
washed away. Brockleson is not further really talked about all
that much. Or John Cina leaves on Monday, we're not
going to hear much about that. It just seems they're
so quick to introduce the new idea and never give
the people what they want, which is reinforcement. That's why

(24:13):
Star Wars the eighty eight second trailer of pretty Much
Just Mashed Visuals was the hottest thing on the Internet
because for thirty forty plus years now, fans who have
loved the series are reminded and told there's more to
the story, something WWE has I don't even really think
they've ever fully grasped, at least himself hasn't unless there's
been people around him who have introduced the idea.

Speaker 1 (24:35):
Thanks Brian, Thanks for Carl, thanks for your passion. Well,
we'll bring this up too, or I will with Matt
McCarthy on Thursday, because it's a good topic for somebody
who's been on the creative team to talk about his
observation of where the commitment to that long term payoff
and the integrity of the storylines was versus it's just
what seems like the right idea today. What will entertain

(24:57):
vincick Mann this week? I think Vince would say that
he does plan ahead, but that he also calls audibles
along the way, and maybe he's been calling more audibles lately.
But I think he always has a long term idea
in mind, but he's willing to stray from it when
it comes to the top, you know, three, four, five,

(25:17):
Max six skies. I think he always has kind of
a working idea of where he wants to be in
six months. Does that seem fair, Jason?

Speaker 3 (25:24):
It does, and you know, and I see it with
the pay per reviews, it seems like he definitely knows
where he wants to go with the major matches on
the pay p reviews, certainly for WrestleMania, but I don't
think he maps it out. I think that's where you
get the booking on the fly that comes into play
on the weekly television in getting to those matches that
he wants to I think he's probably known for a

(25:45):
while he wants to go rains and rawlins. Again. Assume
it's not official for Survivor series, but I assume that's
where they're going to have that match. And I think
the whole Taker thing this month coming up, he's known about.
So I think he has good ideas for most of
these shows. It's and most of the show's turn out
to be this year have been entertaining. The live specials
have been very good. It just getting to them that's

(26:05):
been the major problem for WWE.

Speaker 1 (26:08):
Up next, Stephen from Tennessee VF. You remember Stephen thanks
for Colin, could hear from you? What have you got
for Jason to me today?

Speaker 10 (26:15):
Hey guys, how's it going to day?

Speaker 2 (26:16):
Good? Good?

Speaker 8 (26:18):
Hey?

Speaker 10 (26:19):
Sorry, I jumped in the freckline a little later. I've
completely forgot that you guys started in the early time,
So I apologize about that. He did recovered, Yeah, see,
I covered by talkings. I apologize. They are two kind
of quick questions I can try to get out there
to you. Number one, I've been thinking lately, you know,
the wis Key demographic are trying to reach the casual audience,

(26:39):
and I just kind of a curious it seems like
you look like at the Attitude era. Then slowly, slowly
stillys had given that hagcor fan bass had gone to
ECW and other avenues what they were looking for in
the programming, and still listener of bringing them back. And
I was just kind of curious what it could wrestling
benefit more from targeting that that hawcore fan and through

(27:00):
their passion and then through their passion and none of
the product that they could.

Speaker 5 (27:04):
Help bring in casual viewers.

Speaker 10 (27:06):
And then my second question being with Roman reigns now
seemingly like like Vince is ready to cast his chips
in on him and he would probably be like, Seina
will get that next reaction. When did this decide that
he didn't have to have this top guy to have
one hundred percent of the crowd. It seems like before
when he lives top Gussil to get bit, we'll start
getting boosed. He would look at to go to somebody

(27:28):
else or possibly hurting that guy heel and with seen that.
Obviously he's not gone that direction, So I was just
kind of curious. So when did he decide I no
longer have to have one hundred percent of the fan
base behind my pigs.

Speaker 1 (27:40):
Great, Stephen, good, here for you two really good topics, Jason,
Do you want to start with one of them? And
then I'll I'll come in and throw to the other
one after that.

Speaker 3 (27:48):
Yeah, I think he answered his own question with the
second one. I think it really was with John Cena.
I don't think we've seen examples of that before, and
Sena always handled it very well, always has and probably
always will. It is a big turn from guys like
Sean Michaels blowing their stacks when the fans weren't playing
along and cheering him as much as he wanted and

(28:09):
so I think unless I'm forgetting a case wait, I
would say that was probably the point where Vince started
looking at it differently.

Speaker 1 (28:16):
I'll say this, as much as they pay lip service
to OH, as long as they get a reaction, we're happy.
Vince McMahon would much rather have Roman reigns be as
popular and cheered as Steve Austin or as hul.

Speaker 2 (28:30):
Kogan at his peak. That's what Vince McMahon wants.

Speaker 1 (28:34):
So he's settling for and looking at the bright side
of a mixed reaction.

Speaker 2 (28:40):
To Roman Reigns.

Speaker 1 (28:41):
And the reason Roman Rains is getting some cheers and
some booze is because of his wrestling skills, his interviews,
both of which are not at Steve Austin level, and
a fan base that has been told and they're better
about this now than they had been for a while,
but a fan base that has been told for years now.

(29:03):
We are here to entertain you. You are our focus group,
as opposed to there's this really cool thing happening, which
is a bunch of badasses fighting for a championship.

Speaker 2 (29:12):
That matters and you get to watch.

Speaker 1 (29:15):
Instead, it's we're here to cater to your whims and
it has led to that. Now Roman Reigns maybe is
getting an even harder review from the fans because of
John Cena, and the fans have realized how fun it
is to rebel against Lee Babyface. But part of it
is on Roman Rains. I mean, his his promos and

(29:36):
his and his work in the ring, and also just
the perception that he was carried in the shield. And
I think the timing was pretty bad too, because fans
heard ZM Punk one way or the other, whether they
heard the podcast or heard of the podcast or Red Summaries.
Cumpunk came out there right before Roman Rains was big
singles push and said, yeah, pretty much, Roman Reigns was

(29:57):
the chosen one the fans are already cheering from. I
wanted the main event Mania, but all I heard was,
Oh Punk, you gotta make Roman look good. Oh Punk,
you gotta make Roman look good. That worked against Roman
Reigns too, and I don't think that should be underestimated
as a factor in that fan base. The bell Weather
fans who can kind of influence the direction of a
crowd with their passionate response to somebody, I think they

(30:20):
looked at Roman Reigns and said, not only aren't you
all that great? Compared to Dean Ambrose and seth Rawlins.
Not only don't I dig your promos? In your in
ring style is like three moves, all those things. I
think fans kind of saw he was a chosen one
and not quite ready for primetime in the main event
spot as a lead babyface. But CM punk confirmed for
them probably what they thought, which is, yeah, he's kind

(30:43):
of the teacher's pet, and so a whole combination of
things led to it. So it's not that Vince prefers it.
He picked Roman. The fans then were split on him
at best, and we've seen that play out. But Vince
would rather have a guy get all cheers if it's man,
had somebody else he liked as much as Roman Rains
who got one hundred percent cheers. Jason, I think that

(31:04):
other guy would be getting Roman's push right now, Woody.

Speaker 3 (31:07):
I mean Daniel Bryan case in point.

Speaker 2 (31:10):
No, no, that who Vince liked as much?

Speaker 3 (31:13):
Gotcha?

Speaker 4 (31:13):
Gotcha?

Speaker 2 (31:13):
Okay, there were two.

Speaker 1 (31:15):
Yeah, if there's like, if Vince is looking, go, oh,
should I push Roman? Or should I push this guy?
And Roman is getting fifty to fifty response and that
other guy that Vince likes just as much is getting
all cheers. Vince is going with that guy a getting
all cheers as his lead babyface. So I just want
to tell Stephen from Tennessee, I don't think this is
like Vince's a top preference.

Speaker 3 (31:35):
No, No, you're absolutely right. I did say yesterday or
in Q and A audio that the Hogan Orndorf feud
as great as it was and Orndor if I remember
being at the first match they had at met Center,
which was pretty early on after the turn, and there
were scattered Orndor fans. It was certainly more than you
would see if it was Hogan against anyone else at

(31:57):
that time, but it was still the crowd wip hop,
you know, ninety nine percent of the way, And you
do that same program today and it's just the crowd
is different. And I really feel like it would probably
be sixty forty in favor of Arndorf because there is
this light, there's this dislike for the top babyface that

(32:18):
they feel like is being shoved down their throats, and
I think today's audience would see through it more with
Hogan than they did at that time. But I also
feel like what you're saying is they've kind of created that,
they've kind of made their own bed with that as well,
and that plays into it too, and so they're in
a tough spot. And when you do find someone like
Daniel Brian where the crowd is just unanimously behind him,

(32:39):
even if he's not your guy, go with it. I'm
still I mean, it's over and done now, but it's
so frustrating that they had that opportunity to do that.
They had that rare person that could get that type
of unanimous applause, and they just, for whatever reason, didn't
see it.

Speaker 1 (32:55):
I agree, we're about to go to a commercial break.
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(33:17):
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Speaker 2 (33:30):
Yeah, no, and you're right.

Speaker 1 (33:31):
There have been babyfaces and crowds have rebelled against before,
oftentimes with apathy and not buying tickets and sometimes booing,
and even Hogan. People forget about this or don't know
about the history of it. Hogan was not a hot
babyface act when he turned heel and joined the nWo,
joined the Outsiders, Hogan was stale and running out of
steam and looking for answers and all In Nash came

(33:53):
in and revitalized WW and Hogan thought long and hard
about whether he wanted to go. He and Mark Madden
was telling Bruce Mitchell and the Bruce Mitchell Audio Show
for VFP members a week ago Sunday. You know, he
didn't know till the very end if it was going
to be Hogan or Sting turning heel in that third spot. So,
but Hogan I think made that decision ultimately because he

(34:16):
wasn't selling the merchandise and drawing the buy rates and
draw on the ratings and getting that crowd response. He was,
you know, just years or just few years earlier. So yeah,
there's there's a long history there. I think the uh,
the answer to Steven's first question casual should you target
casual fans or hardcore fans? If I'm gonna boil down
his question to a few words in one sentence, I
would say, put out a really good product and the

(34:40):
hardcore fans will love it and the casual fans will
love it. I really think it's a false choice, Jason,
that you either produce a product that appeals to hardcore
fans or you or you kind of dumb it down
or some things and make it more palatable for casual fans.
Like I don't quite get that. I think pro wrestling
needs to embrace its self for what it is and

(35:02):
not think well in order like either Vince Russo say
it during that era when he was booking, well, we
can't have too much wrestling or too much of this
kind of wrestler because people won't watch, not enough people
will watch. And I just think the product that the
casual fans will watch is the same product that the
hardcore fans will embrace and love.

Speaker 2 (35:22):
Also, so I think it's a false choice.

Speaker 1 (35:24):
I think there's a really there's more than one good
way to promote professional wrestling, but you can never promote
good pro wrestling when you're running away from what you
are and trying to be something other than promoting two people,
one who you give fans or reason to want to
see win, another who you give fans or reason to
want to see lose against each other in a really good,

(35:46):
hard hitting, realistic athletic contest or simulated contest for a
match result that has ramifications and ultimately leads to a
championship prize. That's the formula, and you just need a
good roster of guys who can tell that story, and
you tell that story, and yes you can. There's different

(36:07):
styles of wrestling you can employ, but ultimately that's what
pro wrestling is. And when you embrace that and do
a good job with it, you don't have to worry
about whether you're appealing to casuals or hardcorese because they're
both going to be along.

Speaker 2 (36:16):
For the ride.

Speaker 3 (36:18):
Agree one hundred percent. I will say too that I
think they can learn from the tastes of the hardcore fan.
I mean you need to differentiate between Okay, what kind
of has a cult following and may not work on
the main stage. If you're looking at NXT to WWE.
But I think you also can figure out and that's
the thing I really enjoy about NXT. They don't find

(36:39):
excuses not to push something that's clicking with people if
it's you know, Hunter talked about it in one of
the conference calls that he did too, where there's things
that just aren't always his cup of tea, but he
just looks atting as well the fans like could go
with it. You don't see that enough on the main roster,
and I really think that's a Vince McMahon issue.

Speaker 1 (36:56):
That's a good point too. All right, let's go Jason
to a plug for your website and your membership for
just past the midway point of the hour.

Speaker 2 (37:04):
You UH.

Speaker 1 (37:04):
You have a website and an app that a lot
of people read, but you also have another layer featuring
UH with features that are only for members.

Speaker 2 (37:11):
Talk about both of those.

Speaker 3 (37:13):
Yeah, absolutely the members man Twitter at Pro Wrestling Net.

Speaker 1 (37:17):
Excellent. Let's get back to the phone lines. If you
want to get in line on the phone banks, we
might get to your call. We got a lot of
people on hold already. Call right now to get in
line six four, six, seven to one, nine to eight
two eight. That's six four six, seven to one, ninety
eight twenty eight. Don't forget Thursday. Matt McCarthy X Creative
Team member joins me on the live cast last Thursday.

(37:38):
By the way, if you missed it, Bob Beckland a
WWF World Champion, WWWF World Champion dating back to the
late seventies through the early eighties. He was the bridge
between Brunos, Sam Martino and Hulk Hogan.

Speaker 2 (37:53):
He was more than a bridge.

Speaker 1 (37:54):
He was the lead babyface for World Champion for six years,
had a great run with the title. He just came
out with an excellent autobiography almost five hundred pages, great
education on the business, really well written, and he was
a guest on the show last Thursday. Bruce Mitchell joined
me for that program and Bob was on for nearly
an hour and a half talking about his book, telling

(38:14):
great stories. We hope if you haven't listened to that yet,
you'll jump jump into the archives and check that out.
All right, let's go next to aera code six six
one six. Please state your name in the city you're
calling from.

Speaker 11 (38:28):
This is air for That's how you guys doing doing good?

Speaker 2 (38:31):
Thanks for coming, Eric, What do you got for us.

Speaker 11 (38:33):
I noticed I read well. I was watching yesterday and
I saw a spot with Alberto del Rio being a father,
and I'm thinking to myself, I'm how am I supposed
going to read a boot this guy? I just think
that's he that's a great guy.

Speaker 8 (38:45):
And I just still know and.

Speaker 11 (38:46):
He's wrestling jazz scene. I'd rather you for him into
the jazz scene. And then I got one more question
to say, Thanks, Eric, just.

Speaker 2 (38:52):
Go ahead of his with the other one. We'll do both.

Speaker 11 (38:55):
Okay, where's next for the Undertaker?

Speaker 10 (38:57):
There is he going to be him?

Speaker 11 (38:58):
And the Wiots and the Survivor series. Man, That's all
I got.

Speaker 1 (39:01):
Great, Thanks Eric Jason. It's an ongoing issue I have.
I'd say, on a list or on a rating scale
of how people feel about mixed signals that WWB sends
out regarding heels, I consider it ten out of ten
in terms of how strongly I feel compared to the

(39:22):
average person. I feel very strongly that there's no upside
to showing a good human aspect to heels you're trying
to promote. In pro wrestling, the comeback always is, well,
people know it's fake. People know these people are just actors.
Know they don't. I mean, yes they do. They know
that the matches are preordained, but they don't know that
Alberto Derrio isn't a nasty guy who you wouldn't want

(39:47):
as your neighbor. So don't tell them that. Don't prove
that that's not true. Give people a story to believe in.
The analogy that I used is nobody would want to
I should say nobody would want It would not have
been helpful for the fabul less Freebirds who.

Speaker 2 (40:01):
Were party animal rockers.

Speaker 1 (40:03):
They were just I mean, they were just totally Southern
rock through and through in the UH in their peak
years in the nineteen eighties.

Speaker 2 (40:12):
It would not have helped if.

Speaker 1 (40:14):
When they were heels, whatever territory they were in, had
them standing in the ring during an announcement about the
promoter being building the brand of the promotion by associating
with the charity and raising awareness for a charity, or
featuring them on the local news in that territory at
some children's charity or a homeless shelter. No promoter would

(40:38):
have ever done that, because it's stupid, it doesn't make sense,
it's not good for business.

Speaker 2 (40:43):
You have plenty of babyfaces to do that.

Speaker 4 (40:45):
You can.

Speaker 1 (40:45):
You should be highlighting and spending your time showing what
great people the babyfaces are and wait for the heel
to turn babyface and then save those features for then
if that heel ever turns babyface. So I'm against that.
I didn't like Russev standing in the ring last night
for the chain. It's not that people are going to
assume that heels are for cancer. If it's not that

(41:05):
that people think heels are for cancer if they're not
in the ring. The point is is nobody's for cancer,
but heels don't feel that it's there worth their time
to stand in the ring and be part of a raw,
raw brand building effort to promote awareness. That's what makes
them heels, So don't within the narrative of the show

(41:26):
do it. So, whether it's Alberta to Rion Espn being
a father and what a good father they're showing out
to be, or Russav standing in the ring among other heels,
you try to get a chant going about cancer. I
just there's no upside to doing it, and there's no
downside to not doing it. Just put the baby faces
out there and be very selective in any good situation

(41:49):
you ever put heels in, which should almost be none
voluntarily Jason.

Speaker 6 (41:53):
Yeah.

Speaker 10 (41:54):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (41:54):
We grew up on the AWA here in the Twin Cities,
and ver Gania did a lot of charity type things,
whether it was U of M Wrestling or you know,
just different things, and mostly we'd see here in the
state of Minnesota and he didn't see him. Hey, let's
bring in the chic to really endorse this, or you
bring in Bobby Heen. And if you saw a heel

(42:15):
walk into the picture during something like that, you knew
it was an angle. He knew that that the heel
was going to do something healish. They never confused the audience,
And I think it's silly that ww whe is. I
don't know what Alberto del Rio is supposed to be
right now. I think that's my design, Wade, But I'm
not intrigued either. I'm just kind of confused, like why
are he and Zeb together? And I know it's kind

(42:35):
of straying away from it, but he mentioned del Rio.
What am I supposed to be feeling?

Speaker 1 (42:40):
I don't know, And I thought it was disappointing for
a first promo where you know, Zeb says, you know,
it's it's not about borders. Let's pretend we're one country America.
Mechs America.

Speaker 2 (42:53):
Was that what he said? Me's America?

Speaker 4 (42:55):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (42:55):
And then yeah, I think it sounds Amica. Sounds right
close to it.

Speaker 1 (42:58):
And I don't really get where that is creates a
ton of heat. I mean, I'm not saying that people
are for that. It just doesn't feel like this hot
button issue that would be a helish thing to say
that would draw a ton of heat. And then they
went to del Rio after Zeb, and I thought it
was funny when Zeb says I'm done with you, no
more questions. To Renee, She's like, oh okay, and then

(43:18):
she turned to del Rio and del Rio didn't even
comment about the alliance with Zeb. He didn't show any
chemistry with Zeb. He just was in his own little
world and he gave this really short, to the point
promo of well, I want to I want to win
a championship.

Speaker 3 (43:32):
I want to be the guy I I didn't even
understand what he said.

Speaker 2 (43:35):
Yeah, it just it.

Speaker 1 (43:36):
I mean, ultimately what he said is I want to
win a second title. That's my destiny. And it just
didn't feel ei. There was no connection, there, no backstory
that that was created. I don't know why I should.
I don't know why I should hate him or boo
him because he wants to hold a second championship. So yeah,
I mean, if if the idea is that he's a babyface,

(43:57):
that would surprise me based on, you know, zeb being
the manage and the way that he was rude de Renee.

Speaker 2 (44:02):
So I'm just sort of thinking this.

Speaker 1 (44:03):
Obviously it has to be they want him to be
a heal, but I don't think they have defined it
very well yet.

Speaker 12 (44:15):
Are you a fan of AW looking to sit back,
relax and listen to some like minded podcasters who share
your passion. Do you want to be topped off the
ledge after a segment that has you wondering what the
heck are they thinking? Do you want to join a
discussion on what AW is doing right and what they
could do to improve?

Speaker 4 (44:32):
Then join me Joel and me Greg for the All.

Speaker 12 (44:35):
Of the Conversation Club every Friday on the pw torch
Live Cast.

Speaker 13 (44:38):
Fee search pw torch in your podcast app and subscribe
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Speaker 2 (45:01):
Jason Undertaker, what do you think is next for him?
What do you think we see him next?

Speaker 3 (45:07):
Well, I mean I think we'll see him in the
build the Survivor Series at some point. I think they
are setting up. I'm hopeful that it's a traditional Survivor
Series elimination tag match with the Wyatt family against Cain
and Taker, and who knows, nobody saves them, so I
don't know why they would trust anyone to actually team
with them, but maybe the Dudley's or something like that,
and maybe Ambrose is a guy on the team who knows.

(45:28):
But the reason I say I'm hopeful is I don't
want to see the Brothers of Destruction beat the Wyatt
family in a handicap match. No desire to see that.
I think they need to think you can go ahead
and have Undertaker's team win at Survivor Series in elimination match.
That's fine. I just don't want to see. I don't
want the Wyots to be damaged even more by just

(45:49):
being bounced around and beaten by two guys. I think
that would be a big mistake. But I'm even more
fearful way that we see somehow, some way braun Strowman
wins the match. Shouldn't they set up or they just
do something to set up Bronz Stroman for Taker Wrestle Mannia.
That's a match I really don't want to see.

Speaker 1 (46:07):
Yeah, I mean, I think it almost seems like Bronze
Stroman in built up as a monster heel for the
next however many months it is, uh Nofember, December, January, February, March. Yeah,
next five plus months. They set up bron as this
unbeatable force and he's kind of Bray's henchman since Undertaker's
already be Bray. Uh And they set it up and

(46:28):
it's just kind of this you know, feel good old
style win for Undertaker at the Undertaker's age. I mean,
part of me is rooting for that, just have Taker
go out there and not have to go out and
take the suplexes from Lesner and not have to try
to have a classic match like he did against Michaels
or even do what he and Hunter tried to do.

(46:49):
But I don't, you know, bron Stroman hasn't hasn't shown
me yet that he's a guy that I would want
to spend an Undertaker match on or that that would
particularly draw well. You know, I think the fact that
we've seen Undertaker now in two other matches against Lesnar
since WrestleMania this year indicates or it doesn't indicate, but
I think it makes him less of a special attraction.

(47:11):
If so, just paying to see him at WrestleMania or
subscribe to the network to see him at wrestlemaniast Bronz Stroman.
I don't think sells many subscriptions, so I don't know
that that's really worth it. So I don't know when
we see Taker next, and I but it could be
in a week or two, and it could be a
three on two match with White Family against Taker and Kane.

(47:33):
We could I mean, maybe we see Undertaker against Kane
at Mania, with Kine doing yet another turn.

Speaker 2 (47:39):
But yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (47:41):
I don't there's nothing that really jumps out to me
as a great Undertaker match unless they do Undertaker John
Cena and kind of have it be the battle of
you know, these two brand defining characters. And if that's
the case, then I think we'll get through the Wide
Family feud with one or two matches on pay per
views between now want to wrestle Ania Hype.

Speaker 3 (48:02):
That sounds about right. I could see that. I definitely
can see Takers Sina. It's tough to I mean, Rawlins
would be a good opponent for him because he could
bounce all over the place, But it looks like he's
tied up with Hunters. So yeah, I'm kind of confused
as to where they're going with Taker from Many at
this point.

Speaker 1 (48:17):
I'm too all right. Up next seven to seven, You're
on the live cast with Jason Palamy.

Speaker 2 (48:22):

Speaker 14 (48:25):
It's Exager from Vallejo, California.

Speaker 2 (48:27):
Thank Xavier, thanks for calling.

Speaker 14 (48:29):
Hey, yesterday's raw just just kind of made sense. You know,
all the people who won at at hell NFL all
earned an opportunity to compete in matches, so they can,
you know, have a match at the end of the show, yep,
in order to get the biggest prize of all the
w W Championship. I felt like that made sense. I

(48:51):
felt like I would love to see the third hour
ratings because I feel like yesterday's show did a better
job than any show hell NSL at keeping me invested
for all three hours because there was a logical story
to follow this tournament format. Every person in the match,
in the matches had a reason to be in that match,

(49:15):
and it all led to this main event. The main
event was promoted all show. It felt important, it felt
like a big deal, and I really liked how it
turned out. I feel like Rain's, you know, he's been
on a journey since WrestleMania, and I think that, you know,
this is a good culmination of that journey to go
against Rollins. But I did have one big issue with
how the show ended, and that is with Rollins's reaction

(49:40):
in the staring out with Rains. Rollins was coming off
two pretty huge wins. I mean, he beat Sting, He'd
beat Kane. They're two hall you know, they're going to
be Hall of Famers, They're two really big stars, and
Rawlins should be incredibly confident, and he did seem confident.
You know, when Rains won, Rollins was at the commentary
death saying, ah, wow, congratulations Rains, but now you have

(50:03):
to face me, Now you have to go against me,
you know, really popping himself up. But then when they
got in the stare down, I felt like it was
a little bit, Yeah, you've lost confidence. He broke eye contact,
his body language said something completely different. And I think
at this point to make Rains and Rawlins the big
money match, because I think it'll be a really good match.
I feel like Rolins should shouldn't should have stood toe

(50:26):
to toe, kept eye contact with the Rains of the
entire time and made it feel like it's going to
be a real fight. And I feel like a confident
Rawlins we'll make We'll make this entire program much better.
So I was just wondering how you guys feel about
Rawlins and just his confidence goods.

Speaker 1 (50:42):
I wonder if Rollins did too much of that, Jason,
if the fear is that fans would start to cheer
him and it would hurt the goal of getting Rains
over as a baby face, do you think that plays
into it or do you think it's just, you know,
they just want Seth to be kind of a cowardly heel.

Speaker 3 (50:56):
I think they wanted to be a cowardly heel. And
I think he missed a key point there because it
was in all Bravado after Rains one. In fact, they
cut to Rollins after Rain's one and he had this
terrified look kind of face like, oh no, you know
that's not what I wanted to have happen, and it
was JBL who made some comment to him about how
you're gonna take him down too, and then Rollins was like, yeah, yeah,

(51:16):
I'm going to And then the confidence started coming out,
and I said false confidence because I think he played
it really well. I think he played it for what
they wanted him to do in that situation. I thought
Rollins was great. I do think he has a really
good point though that, Yeah, you know, there is money
in that showdown match, more so than in a lot
of cases, kind of the chicken bleep heel. But with Rollins,

(51:40):
I thought what they did last night, it is true
to what they've done with his character. I have overall
issues with that character, but at least was true to
what we've seen from him lately. And I wouldn't be
surprised if by the time the match gets here, you know,
he gets a couple of shots in on Rain's, a
couple of sneak attacks or something. If we see that
confidence a little bit. That seems to be the way

(52:01):
they do business with Rawlins.

Speaker 1 (52:04):
As far as viewership goes, Jason, viewership was not all
that different than last week. We don't have the actual
ratings yet they could be coming in any minute now
and I'm monitoring that. But the viewership numbers held up
a little bit better in the third hour than they
have been, but overall, no post pay per view bump.

Speaker 3 (52:21):
Well, and here's the disappointing part about the numbers is that, yeah,
viewership was I mean basic virtually the same. It went
up just a tick from the in the third hour
compared to the second hour. Usually you get that big
drop after the second hour. This week we got it
after the first hour. The first hour. The second hour
basically dropped down to what the third hour, what you
would expect the third hour number to be. And so,

(52:42):
you know, if that part is disappointing, and I don't
really I can't really think of anything in that first
hour that would trigger that. Am I missing something with No?

Speaker 2 (52:52):
I don't think so.

Speaker 1 (52:52):
I think maybe what happened is the uh there was
nothing announced about John Cena, and they lost some John
Cena fans. As much as people don't think John, like
Todd Martin makes the case, there are people who watch
the show because of John Cena. There's even more people
who would be watching the show if they picked the
right guy to get the time and hype that John
Cena gets. But the reality is those who are watching,

(53:16):
those who haven't tuned oubt because they don't like a
John Cena centric promotion. There are some people watching because
of John. When Johnson not on the show, there does
seem to be John Cena factor when it comes to
the ratings when they don't when they say he's not
going to be there or they don't announce he will
be there, and so that that could have played into
it a little bit. And then they just kind of
held steady after that drop.

Speaker 3 (53:36):
And by the way, what are they doing with John
c Really, he's going to just disappear for six weeks
or whatever it turns out to be, No injury angle,
no nothing. It's just it was strange to me, especially
if del Rio is going to be a heel. I thought, well,
maybe they want del Rio to to kind of be
one of those who slotted in since or miss down
Cena and Orton has a baby face. But if he
is going to be a heel, why not have him

(53:58):
make a statement a why not have him be the
guy that takes out John Cena for a little while,
so at least Seena has something to come back to
that's actually ready made, just ready to go.

Speaker 6 (54:08):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (54:08):
No, I think it's a little bit surprising that they
didn't do something to set up why Sena's gone and
what his goal will be when he returns. So, I
mean it's even possible, fathomable to me that they would
hold him out until coming back at the Rumble just
to see if that leads to a big pop and

(54:28):
people being interested in Seena and gives a little more
breathing room for whatever they do with Roman Reigns and
whoever they deem kind of the number two babyface.

Speaker 2 (54:34):
In the meantime, you.

Speaker 1 (54:41):
Don't have to wait for the way Keller Pro Wrestling
post show to find out what I.

Speaker 2 (54:44):
Thought of Monday Night Raw and SmackDown.

Speaker 1 (54:46):
Each week, you can check out my reports that are
updated live throughout Raw and SmackDown at PW torch dot com.
My written report will tell you what's happening in detail
in case you missed the show, and it'll also analyze
key segments and of my random thoughts end quips on
what I am watching as it airs. So check it
out every Monday night and Tuesday night at PW torch

(55:07):
dot com. That also applies to WWE payperviews. I cover
those live at pw torch dot com with a detailed
written report with star ratings, and of course you can
find other TV reports from other contributors to pw torch
such as nxt RO, oh, Impact Wrestling, and more. Check
it out pw torch dot com your first stop for
TV and pay per view written reports. All right, let's uh,

(55:39):
let's go another call here. We'll do two o nine
and then after that's seven one eight, two one nine.
Please state your name and where you're calling from. Hello, yep,
two on nine, Go ahead.

Speaker 15 (55:49):
Uh Hi Carl from Stockton, California.

Speaker 2 (55:52):
Hey, what have you got for us?

Speaker 15 (55:54):
Two quick things? The triple A for success. I see
it happen, but I just don't see it at wrestle
any just because we kind of know that Triple H
will not beat him for the belt. So I kind
of see the shield triple threat match in maybe I
want to see what you guys thoughts on that. And

(56:14):
the second thing is this past week I heard Roman
Reigns and ride Back Talk on the Separate podcast for
different interviews, and they didn't sound that bad as they
do on TV. So my thing is, does does vincick Man.
Does he not hear how they speak outside when he
scripts them?

Speaker 5 (56:32):
Or what is it?

Speaker 15 (56:34):
And that's pretty much all I got.

Speaker 1 (56:37):
Okay, so Roman and Rye back in mainstream. What was
your first topic again, Carl in three words or less?

Speaker 3 (56:42):
A shield triple threat?

Speaker 1 (56:43):
Oh yeah, yeah, there we go. Thanks, that's not you're
not Carl Jason. Thanks Carl Jason. Take either one of those.
By the way, I literally, I literally said, I don't
need to jot down a note on the Shield triple threat.
I'll totally remember that. I'm not going to waste my time.
And then he talks about Roman r My mind starts
churning about that, and then I'm like, I can't believe
I just forgot his first question.

Speaker 2 (57:05):
That have so I've been good about it the rest
of the show. And then I got cocky.

Speaker 3 (57:08):
But go ahead, now whatever you do, remember the second one,
because I've already forgotten that I took of that. But
also I will take the first one. I do think
it's possible that we get the triple threat. You know,
you say that everyone knows Triple H isn't going to
win the title. I don't know that Seth Rollins is
still champion by then, you know, it could be Roman
Reigns defending against Brock Lesner or Good a number of

(57:28):
different scenarios, and then it's just Rawlins and Triple H
and just a showdown match. There's no title at stake,
so that's possible. You may see if they want to
turn Dean Ambrose or at least just create some major
tension where he's just kind of a wild card and
who has issues with both Rains and Rawlins. That's certainly
something they can do at WrestleMania. Maybe we start getting
the setup for that at Survivor Series. Who knows, but

(57:51):
I just I think that's the key there is. I
don't know that Rawlins is going to be champion come
wrestlemanny a time.

Speaker 1 (57:56):
No, that was my first thought too. And if that's
the case, and let's just establish for the record, what
are the odds that Seth is the heel or the
babyface in that match?

Speaker 3 (58:07):
Ooh, I would hope.

Speaker 6 (58:12):
He is.

Speaker 3 (58:13):
Well, I guess I would hope he's the heel, just
because that would mean that Triple H would probably become
a strong babyface. But because I'm just so bored with
the whole authority back and forth nonsense that I'd like
to see them pick aside and ideally it's just neutral
part of your baby faces, But it's tough because they
may see that as an opportunity to turn seth Rollins

(58:36):
once his heel title run is over.

Speaker 1 (58:39):
Yeah, yeah, No, I don't think it's a given either way.
I mean I can kind of root for both being
babyfaces going into and coming out of that match, so
it's tough. How about the question about how they come
across off camera versus radio or podcast interviews right back
and Roman, it's two examples. I think you can say
that about so many wrestlers. They come across us more real,

(59:01):
more personable than they do on WWBTV. Sometimes I think
Roman says things that make him less likable than what
he scripted to say on TV. But then there's other
times where I think in the interviews I've heard with him,
he comes across more likable. So I think part of
that is just kind of picking which side of his
kind of natural cockiness you feature, depending on whether he's

(59:21):
a face or a heel.

Speaker 2 (59:23):
But when you watch.

Speaker 1 (59:23):
NXT, like last week's show, the way that they personalize
the different rests, the different talent on that show, Apollo
Creed and Rhino and Baron Corbin, like, you get to
know wrestlers in NXT on a deeper, more personable human level.

(59:47):
So it's not it's My point is that you don't
need to be sitting down in a casual podcast to
come across better and more dimensional than the way you
do on WWB TV. There really is something about the
way that Vince McMahon frames his characters on his TV
show that does seem limiting.

Speaker 3 (01:00:02):
Jason, it definitely is. And it's their acting. You know,
he's asking them to go out there and act. And
I know you had a conversation with him about that
years ago. You get into in a second if if
you want to discuss it, but it it's I mean,
it's just the creative structure in twenty fifteen and really
going back many years now is what's causing this. These

(01:00:24):
guys should just be playing extensions of themselves and instead
they're trying to make these guys into characters. And it's
not your Plumber characters of the Goon.

Speaker 6 (01:00:32):
Or things like that.

Speaker 3 (01:00:33):
But they're still being asked to portray something that I
think in many cases they're not. I think that's limiting.
They're being asked to rehearse, you know, rehearse and remember lines.
That's limiting. And so I wish he would pull back
on some of that, and I think you would see
some of the good traits of these guys come out,
and that would probably inspire Creative at that point to
adapt to them, rather than asking the wrestlers to adapt

(01:00:55):
to what Creative wants from them.

Speaker 2 (01:00:58):
Let's go to seven one, eight.

Speaker 3 (01:01:00):
You're not gonna tell You're not gonna tell that story.

Speaker 1 (01:01:02):
Oh, I'm sorry you asked. Yeah, just it was actually
after the XFL Press conference, and it was not a
lot to it. I just remember Vince talking to about
a variety of things and and he just kind of
was like talked. He just talked about how difficult it
is to get some of his wrestlers to be able
to be good actors, and you know, just was kind
of frustrated, you know, just kind of like, you know,

(01:01:24):
just going, yeah, wait, you know, I got I got
some challenges when it comes again, these uh, these wrestlers
to actually be able to you know, give rehearse their
lines believably. So it wasn't a lot more to the
story other than that but it you know, Vince is
aware of it. And yeah, I mean I think sometimes
the answer is, don't ask them to act. Have them
be uh embellished, exaggerated, accentuated versions of themselves in a

(01:01:47):
way that they feel comfortable doing. That's I think what
we got with Dwayne Johnson, Steve Austin, you know, Mick Foley.
I mean, the characters who get over and are successful
see IM Punk, Triple H, on and on, Kurt Angle. Uh,
There's there's something about letting somebody be themselves. Sometimes you
have to say, hey, here's six things that I think
of when I think of you. We're gonna focus on

(01:02:08):
these three because these other two or three I don't
think work with your wrestling on air persona what we
want to do with it. But these three traits we're underlining, highlighting,
accentuating these run with it and then let them be
themselves at least part of their real selves.

Speaker 4 (01:02:25):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (01:02:25):
I think a big, a big example of overseeing right
now with a guy having success with it, it's getting
to be himself is big ee.

Speaker 1 (01:02:31):
Yes, yes, you're totally right, Biggie, A quirky guy, got
a sense of humor. I loved her going into the
break last night. He looked at the reference says respect
to time out and his just it's just funny. Yeah,
that he's finally kind of found his lane. All right,
seven went, you are now up. Please state your name
in the city you're calling from him doing good mind?

(01:02:51):
Thanks for Colin.

Speaker 2 (01:02:52):

Speaker 6 (01:02:53):
Yeah, real quick. I was just saying that the no
figgyback off of which I was saying, I see Biggie
as a break way he got from the New Day
my far right now like he's starting to really find
himself and his parisma. And also, you know, the whole
quality of the show, it was very good. It was different,
you know, no big show, no scene, you know, no

(01:03:15):
the casualties from the Monday night at you know, more errors.
So it seemed like a fresh show, you know, with
our berthto there and you can have some good you know,
fresh matches. And also you know, from your perspective, I
just want to, you know, get y'all feel for the
BNOR series. Do they do a double turn that's the
where they try to get set over as a face

(01:03:36):
and you know Roman as the Hill going into Mania
as a chap man and that's all I got, Thank.

Speaker 2 (01:03:41):
You God, Jason.

Speaker 1 (01:03:42):
One of the odds of that intriguing scenario. I think
it sets up both guys for perhaps what is their
long term better what not even long term their medium
term better roles, because I think Roman ultimately maybe can
be a good babyface, but I think having a run
as a heel might help him get their faster and
be better. And Seth because of his ring style, might

(01:04:04):
ultimately be better as a babyface. Any chance of that
happening as soon as Survivor series could vince go, I
gotta shake things up. Let's do a double turn and
have Rains essentially become the Authority's new guy, or.

Speaker 3 (01:04:16):
You know what I thought it? Yeah, you know, I
thought for a little bit there on Sunday night there
was just a long shot chance that they were setting
up Rains for a frustration storyline where he was, you know,
he They were kind of hinting at the idea that
next up was a title shot, and I thought, well,
maybe he doesn't get that on raw and that he
starts to show some signs of frustration and it builds

(01:04:37):
and eventually he takes the shortcut of joining the Authority
and becoming their new man. Obviously that didn't happen. We're
not really seeing any foreshadowing, and I mean, look at
the way they foreshadowed Rains winning last night from beginning
to end on raw wwe foreshadows everything. I think we
would see some signs of that already. If we were
going to get a double turn coming up at Survivor Series,

(01:04:59):
I'd like to think that they could pull it off
without any foreshadow but it just doesn't seem to be
their style.

Speaker 1 (01:05:03):
Wid Yeah, No, I'm with you. I don't think the
odds are great. I wouldn't rule out entirely, but I'm
pretty close to ruling it out. I think Vince is
going to give one more shot to Roman Reigns as
a baby face, and I think, as we've talked about,
there's they're headed long term towards Seth Triple H. But
I don't think Seth goes a babyface. If Triple H
is going to be the heel in their match, I

(01:05:24):
don't think that that turn happens this soon. Just you know,
basically a month from now or a handful of weeks
from now. All right, if you're not a PW Torch
VIP member, I encourage you to do so. You get
ad free versions of this Sunday night program with Greg
Parks and James Caldwell right after Helena Cell reviewing that
pay per view. So a lot of audio left for
you that is available for you right now at PW

(01:05:47):
Torch livecast dot Com.

Speaker 2 (01:05:49):
Jason, thanks very much. We'll talk to you on the
other side of the music.

Speaker 3 (01:05:51):
Sounds great, WOD.

Speaker 16 (01:06:07):
I'm Kelly Wells, host of the Seven Star podcast, the
new ongoing Torch show covering the world of New Japan
pro wrestling. We'll drop new episodes as major shows and
noteworthy events dictate.

Speaker 4 (01:06:19):
And I'm Chris Lansdow.

Speaker 17 (01:06:21):
Join us as we cover the ever changing landscape of
New Japan as they navigate an era with no lack
of talent.

Speaker 4 (01:06:26):
But I really need to create some news staves. You
can stream the new seven Stole podcasts now from Pro
Wrestling Torch.

Speaker 1 (01:06:48):
All right, we're now in the VP after show portion
of the program. Jasonpoulfromprogrestling dot Net joining me Wade Keller
here at PW Torch. Let's get to the Let's get
to the email questions, Jason. One and this one comes
from Anthony from Australia. He says, I actually thought Rob
was okay last night, although I told the story you
could see a mile away and I'm not Roman reigns

(01:07:08):
as big as fan. He pushed the referee away what
they actually committed to telling a story throughout the show. Also,
they planted the seed for Dean to cost Rome in
the title at Survivor series and potentially set up a
Shield triple threat at Mania or the rumble is that
where you see it going. I'm going to get in
trouble for sneaking and fantasy booking again, aren't I? And finally,
have you heard anything more about Daniel Bryn's medical status?

(01:07:29):
If the third doctor gave him bad news? Do you
think they the slide in the ratings may be caused
for them to hold off on a retirement announcement. No,
I well, first of all, Jason, if if Daniel Brian
had definitive news and he was retiring, they'd be teasing
that as a big announcement from Daniel Brian. It'd be depressing.
But he hasn't been on the show anyway, so at
least maybe they'd get Daniel Bryant fans back. Have you

(01:07:50):
heard anything on Daniel Bryan's status.

Speaker 17 (01:07:51):
First of all, no, and I'm glad to that if
we had believe me, it would be all over our
respective websites.

Speaker 4 (01:07:58):
And so no, it's stuff.

Speaker 17 (01:08:00):
DAB was basically that he's just going to go see
another neurologist and that neurologist will will decide things. But
he didn't really give a time frame for when that
was going to occur. I mean, he seems very confident
that he's ready. I felt better in the most recent
Inner review about the way the methods he's used. It
sounds like he just went to one doctor and he

(01:08:23):
listed some of the credentials of that doctor, and the
w w S is not for some reason, and so
it's just kind of fine, you know, find the tiebreaker,
I guess.

Speaker 1 (01:08:34):
Yeah, exactly, and the yeah, I'm waiting for that news.
I mean, I hope it's it's good news and the
right news.

Speaker 12 (01:08:40):
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:08:40):
I don't want Daniel Brown to wrestle, that we shouldn't,
but I certainly want him to wrestle if he can.
And I hope that this scare, uh, this legit scare
about his future will cause him to be really efficient
and wise about what he chooses to do in the ring,
because Daniel Briant can be very effective without putting his
body through what he puts his body through now that
he's you know, as one of Rustler told me, there's

(01:09:01):
a style you work to get yourself over, and then
there's a style you work to make a lot of
money once you're over. And Daniel needs to shift into
that other category. And I will applaud him for doing it,
especially with the concussion issues. If Daniel brian wording went
out as retirement. And I don't I don't want to
get two ahead of things here, but I think they
need to do it at a time when they maybe

(01:09:24):
can have Daniel Brian endorse a Sammy's ain for instance,
as I see a lot of you know myself and
this guy, and they do something to tie the two together,
because I really do think Sammy's a Jason Is is
a guy who has that potential to be that that
Daniel Brian hard working, underdog, likable person.

Speaker 4 (01:09:45):
Oh for sure.

Speaker 17 (01:09:45):
I mean we've seen that throughout his career. You know,
he as El Jenerico as Sammy's I mean certainly he
has that in him. I would also like to see
that I mean, that's the guy that jumps out to
me as much as anyone. I'm struggling to think if
there's an another person like that at the NXT level,
or just somebody in the main roster that would be
a good fit. I hope they don't try to force

(01:10:06):
it with somebody that they like more than Sammy's ain
and there's just you know, there's I think there would
be a genuine chemistry with those two compared to just
pick somebody from the undercard that we think they like.
I wouldn't want to see him out there. Now, this
is an extreme case and it's not going to happen,
but you know, bronze throwman, you know, something like that.
I wouldn't want to see them just pick a name
out of the hat, like we saw with Rick Flair

(01:10:26):
endorsing the Miz for Christ's sake.

Speaker 1 (01:10:28):
Yeah, yeah, because of that endorsement, you can't put anything
past them, I guess. I don't think going to another
part of his topic that they're going to do a
Dean turn on Roman as soon as Survivor series can
we is that what are the what's the percentage of
that happening that quickly?

Speaker 4 (01:10:48):
I would put it in like.

Speaker 17 (01:10:50):
Ten percent or under. I'm not seeing it yet. He said,
we saw this them plant to seed. I didn't see
a seed plan. I just kind of saw Dean Ambrose
trying to pump up his buddy. The only thing that
was I found kind of comical about it was he
kind of ran through the shortcomings, his failed opportunities, and

(01:11:12):
then instead But let's not I think it was before
that he said he didn't want to think about the
past or something like. I can't remember the exactly the
way it went. But I think there's still a chance
they could do the shocking turn of you know, at
some point. I think it's we're more likely to see

(01:11:33):
that a triple threat between the Shield members at some
point before we see the full on reel reunion. I
still think they'll get to and who knows, maybe the
reunion could could set up Ambrose turning, for instance, or
something like that. But I don't feel like I don't
think we're going to see it at Survivor series unless
they really want to shock the hell out of everybody,

(01:11:54):
because again, they tend to foreshadow and I'm not I
just haven't seen any signs of it. There's still a
few weeks to go, but I kind of hope that's
not where they're going right now.

Speaker 1 (01:12:05):
Let me ask you this a broader question. If I
were to tell you that between now and May, you
need to commit Dean Seth and Roman sometime between now
and May to being four years straight with no turns,
do you want them and go through each of them
as a heel or a face.

Speaker 17 (01:12:27):
I'm going to go against the grain and say stick
with Rains as a baby face, and I will admit
that it's coming on the heels of probably his best
crowd reaction ever. And it's a crowd reaction that I
don't think he would have gotten many other places. But
they've they've they've gone with this for so long, They've
tried so hard. I don't think it's realistic to assume
that he's going to turn right now. I think Vince

(01:12:48):
is probably happy as he's ever been since he really
since Royal Rumble when it comes to Roman reigns, because
that crowd was so receptive for him last night, and again,
you put that same show on and Philadelphia or another
market and you're gonna get the exact opposite reaction. But
I think Vince is going to see this as a
sign of momentum. I do think Rains can be a

(01:13:09):
strong heel when the time comes. I you know, any
it was probably last week or I was going, yeah,
I just I give up, But let's see it through,
you know. And I guess I'm just ready to to
to see them find out for themselves whether this guy
can click. Last night was a step in the right direction.

(01:13:29):
I think Seth coming out of his championship run, I
think it's going to be time. So I would go
babyface with him. And I'm a big I've been, you know,
really looking forward to when Dean Ambrose does turn. Then
we're gonna get you know, Dean Ambrose unleashed is gonna
be a lot of fun. And so it's I can
catch me next week. And I might say a different

(01:13:49):
story about Rains, but I would I feel pretty confident
in saying Rawlins's babyface and then Ambrose is kind of
that wild card heel type, and just really turn him
loose when the time is right. But I normally, if
you hadn't to put the restriction on there that it
has to be made, you can't turn them. If you'd
have given me more time, I would say I'll keep

(01:14:09):
Ambrose as he is for now and save that, but
I don't want four more years of Dean Ambrose's the babyface.

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Speaker 2 (01:14:58):
That's a thing, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:14:59):
It is sort of a unrealistic, unfair constraint, But I
just part of me, part of me, does not want
to see Dean Ambrose become the guy who just gets
turned based on what they're doing with Seth and Roman
or you know what, what the whim of the week.
I think that Dean still has a chance to be
as valuable as anybody of those three. He has a

(01:15:21):
chance to be a bigger star than Roman and Seth.
I'm not predicting that. I'm not telling you that I
think it's more likely than Roman or Seth being the
bigger star. I'm just saying there's a percentage chance. It's
sizable that Dean in four years is drawing more money
than Roman or Seth and positioned in a better spot.
Don't make him the big show or the Kurt Angle

(01:15:42):
or the aj Styles, the guy who you're just always turning.
So yeah, I think Dean has an opportunity to be
a great babyface for four years or a great heel
for four years, and both could work. And so and
obviously I think the same with Seth and Roman. And
it's I don't want them because you can imagine each
of them as a heel or a face. I don't

(01:16:04):
think that that is an excuse then, to promote them
constantly in positions where you're just kind of on a
whim turning them or you're not fully committed to what
you want them to be. It's sort of like you know,
in a draft, you might have two or three players.
When your pick comes up that you really like, well,
you got to pick one and go with it, and

(01:16:25):
you might regret it. It might not be the best choice,
but you once that pick is made, the decision is made.
And that's kind of how I feel about them, those
three as either heels or faces, it's a tough call.
Look at the rest of the roster, make the decision,
and then stick with it for a while, so that
in four years, when one of them turns again, it

(01:16:45):
really means something, as opposed to everybody just kind of
yawning and going, oh yeah, okay, but now I'm supposed
to like Dean, and now you know, in six months
will want me to hate them again. I just don't
want to see that. I think all three deserve better
better than that. But I agree with you. I think
you struggled with each of those answers, and I would too.
You know, if I had to commit to Rains for
four years as a heel as opposed to two, that

(01:17:06):
makes the call tougher. If I think Seth is the
easiest call to commit as a face for four years, Dean,
I really think you can go either way within win.
So in a way, it's a hard decision because I
don't know which way is best for him. But I
also think either way he can succeed. I guess I
lean a little bit heal, but but that is a
tough call, and.

Speaker 4 (01:17:24):
I think that's where they're going with them.

Speaker 17 (01:17:26):
You know, again, I don't know that this is happening
at Survivor series, but I referenced the feud earlier.

Speaker 4 (01:17:31):
I think this is close to Hogan Orndorf.

Speaker 17 (01:17:34):
You know, Orndorf was Hogan's best buddy for a while
there before that program, and so it really packed a punch.
And I think that's what they're doing with Dean, is
just establishing him in Roman his best to buddies, and
I don't think right now he's got some you know,
a heelish plan to turn on him. I think that
you know, the character's motives if you ask the writers
would be no, he's really supporting his buddy at this point.

(01:17:55):
But somewhere down the road, something is going to happen.
Whether it's just he gets jealous or somebody plants a
seed that makes him jealous, something is going to happen there.
Probably Again, I say sooner rather than later. But I
don't think survivorship very soon.

Speaker 1 (01:18:09):
Yes, Okay, let's go to Brian for Phoenix twenty four
year person PW Torch subscriber. He says, John, I be
able to call, but he has a question for us.
With ten wwetvas or women wrestlers on the roster and
many more in NXT, is it time for a thirty
or sixty minute women's only show on WWB network concentrating
on wrestling with a few backstage segments?

Speaker 2 (01:18:32):
Jason, what about that?

Speaker 1 (01:18:33):
What about making having a part of the taping of
Raw or SmackDown be a women's only show to help
as a draw on the network and to give the
women more to do than the opportunity they're given on
Raw or SmackDown, so that have some merit.

Speaker 17 (01:18:47):
I say no, I want to see them get it
right with the women on the main roster before I
consider that move, and maybe that would lead maybe that
would help them, but it's another hour of television year
ex afecting people to keep up on. I think that
they have it right at NXT right now. I don't think.

(01:19:07):
I just don't think you need that extra hour of
television with really no major return. I don't know how
many people are going to subscribe to the network just
to see the all women show. So, you know, if
you could, if you could package it somehow and make
some money off it by syndicating or something like that, Okay, maybe,
but I just think it's extra work for not a

(01:19:29):
whole lot of return.

Speaker 11 (01:19:31):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:19:31):
I mean, I think if you put the NXT production
and booking team in charge of it, then yeah, I
lean more more towards liking the idea with all the
reservations that you have, Jason, But if it's Vincement Mann
and that team, then no, you know, I mean, you know,

(01:19:53):
so I want to preface with that. But yeah, to me,
I mean, I just I don't know that they need
their own show. I'm not sure that ten is a
is enough for me to think, yeah, you can do
a whole show based on them, and then you might
have the challenge of, you know, having too many storylines
going on at a time, where if it's happening on

(01:20:13):
the show, does rob become a recap of that or
does it have a separate run of storylines going on.
I don't know that you want the women to no
longer be part of the pro you know, the main
thrust of ron Smackdom being seen by the most people either.

Speaker 17 (01:20:27):
So it's kind of a tough call, if you know,
if the time comes when they actually get the division
clicking on the main roster, I would be open to
the idea of at least doing a test run by
giving them kind of their own live special and seeing
what type of interest that generates. Maybe maybe I'd be wrong,
Maybe there would be more people going, Hey, I want

(01:20:49):
to check this out.

Speaker 4 (01:20:50):
But I did it right now.

Speaker 17 (01:20:51):
I mean that that Davis division is just such a
mess on the main roster. I just I also worry
that it would be it just be kind of exposure
for the women too. They would start to burn through
through storylines a little too quickly. Well let's let's see
them get it right first.

Speaker 6 (01:21:08):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:21:08):
Like to me, if you had a one hour women's
show and it was on the network and it was
taped at full sale, and it was it was NXT
women for an hour and NXT men for an hour,
and it was a way to one kind of gauge
interest in one show versus the other in terms of
viewership of you know, how are we doing how many
people want to see a women's only show versus a

(01:21:29):
men's only show, and it was an opportunity to develop
women and give them more of an opportunity than they
necessarily get on NXT to figure out their characters. If
it were a developmental show, I'm more for that. I
don't think somebody who's on the raw roster, you know,
Charlotte and the Bellas and Becky Lynch, I don't. I
don't think they should be on a separate show from

(01:21:52):
what they do on Ron SmackDown. I mean, my god,
they have five hours a week to fill. I just
just put more than women on both of those shows
rather than give them apletely separate hour.

Speaker 4 (01:22:01):
Hey, if they do this, if they do We're Live Special,
can they call it Ladies Night? Huh?

Speaker 2 (01:22:06):
Oh God? Maybe so?

Speaker 1 (01:22:08):
Or maybe they'll just call it Men's Night, since Lead
apparently thinks that's the way things should be. All right,
all right, sort of a cheap shot, sort of not.

Speaker 18 (01:22:22):
Longing for some nostalgia or maybe you want to learn
some wrestling history, don't miss the nineties Past cast Every
Friday on the PW Torch Daily Cast Feed. Alex and
Patrick will transport you thirty years into the Past by
taking you through the Torch issue from that very week,
follow news from the WWF and WCW and all the

(01:22:42):
happenings from across the wrestling industry in real time as
The Torch reported it thirty years ago. That's the nineties
Past cast every Friday, or the PW Torch Daily Cast feed.

Speaker 1 (01:23:03):
What do you think of Charlotte so far? Jason, by
the way, as kind of the lead female.

Speaker 17 (01:23:06):
Character atrocious, it's not her, it's I mean she I
think she has been better in ringing NXT, but I
don't think they're doing a good job with her at all.
She's always in the background. She loses matches and she
shouldn't be. I mean, lastly, she woned the pay per
view and it was nice that there was nobody at
ringside for a change, but then immediately here comes Page

(01:23:28):
along with Becky Lynch, and then that set up what
we saw on Raw. It just seems like they're always
pushing Nikki or Page instead of her. I think they're
trying to get too many people over right now, and
I think this should be a time whenever you whenever,
I wouldn't have gone with Charlotte as the champion as
quickly as they did, but since they did, I mean

(01:23:49):
she should be the sensation. They should be really showcasing her,
making a big fuss over her, trying to get her
on the Conan Show rather than Paige, and just really
trying to make her the standout of the division. You
don't have to have her beat everyone quickly, but you
can put her in there with some of the women
that you're not really doing anything with anyway, and have
her beat them in quick fashion. You know, they're so

(01:24:10):
enamored with Ronda Rousey, but I don't see any Ronda
Rousi in Charlotte, and that seems to be that seemed
to be, of all the women in the division, the
one you could do something along those lines. I'm not
saying she should win in ten seconds or anything like that,
but I just think you could really play it up
as she is special and I don't feel like there's
anything special about her other than she's Rick Flair's daughter

(01:24:32):
based on the way she's portrayed.

Speaker 1 (01:24:34):
Oh no, no, I agree, And I'm not totally sold
on Charlotte yet as the right centerpiece, and I'm not
sure it was her time either, although with Page and
Charlotte now seeming in a top feud. Do the Bellows
move to kind of a number two spot?

Speaker 4 (01:24:49):
I doubt it. I mean, they just they can't help themselves.

Speaker 17 (01:24:52):
I was, you know, when Nikki put that tweet out yesterday,
I didn't really know how to read into it, and
there was a lot of people were thinking it meant
she was going away at the same time John Cena
was And I don't know if she had that intention
to kind of fool people, but there she was on Raw,
there she was winning. There she was being the powerhouse.
You know, they just can't stop. I don't I think

(01:25:13):
she needs to go away for.

Speaker 4 (01:25:14):
A little bit.

Speaker 17 (01:25:15):
I really was hoping for her sake that she was
going to join Johnson and taking six weeks off and
giving viewers a break from the Bellas.

Speaker 4 (01:25:23):
It's there.

Speaker 17 (01:25:24):
You know, I listen to your guys's audio and maybe
I've missed it. Maybe Todd Martin feels the same way.
But Travis thought that Todd was the one saying that
she she's always portrayed as a powerhouse and it doesn't
really work for her, and that's I actually say that
all the time.

Speaker 4 (01:25:38):
So either Todd and I feel the same way, or
that he just was confused.

Speaker 17 (01:25:42):
I'll back that up a little bit more by saying
that if you want her to be the powerhouse, okay,
have her play a character that's more in line with that.
Don't have her come out and do the pole dance
that she does and shake her ass and then talk
like a baby on Total Divas. You know, the baby
talk that she always does, and her promos are mean, girl,
she is just a mess when you really think about it. Yeah, yeah, So,

(01:26:03):
I mean, if she wants to be the powerhouse of
the division, play a character that's more in tune with that.
I don't think she looks the part. But if you want,
if you want to try, okay, but it just get
it together right now. Just feels like she's going for
too many different things.

Speaker 1 (01:26:17):
Yeah, I just I don't think Charlotte has landed where
she needs to land as a character yet. I don't
believe whatever she's trying to do. Holy and I think
I need to be completely I need to totally believe
what she's doing and she is who she is, and
I just don't think she's found that lane yet. Up next,
Nelson says he's from the Bronx. He's both a torch
and dot net subscriber. Are the Dudleys the twenty fifteen

(01:26:40):
version of the Road Wars. I remember when the Led
returned to the WF nineteen ninety seven. They were jobbing
to the New Age Outlaws, the Godwins and the Headbangers.
I feel like the Dudleys have lost their edge, just
like the Warriors did in ninety seven number two.

Speaker 2 (01:26:52):
The Susan G.

Speaker 1 (01:26:52):
Coleman breast cancer were wearing a segment with Titus O'Neil
last night destroyed k fabe. I'm all for charity and
helping out, but to see the heels and baby faces
together in the ring and then doing the millions of
dollars routine for me was too much. Triple H even
looked a little uncomfortable out there. What do you guys think? Thanks,
keep up the great work. Yeah, take the second one first, Jason.
It looked like Stephanie was as proud as anybody could be,

(01:27:13):
and Triple H was looking like, oh my God, get
me out of here.

Speaker 3 (01:27:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:27:20):
I mean, hey, we've talked about that a lot.

Speaker 17 (01:27:22):
It's silly that they feel the need to mix mix
in the heels in that and just show everyone how
nice all these heels actually are. I'm not a fan
of it either. Looking at it on the positive side, though,
I do want to give them credit for having Titus
be that guy rather than making it. John Cena or
Roman Reigns are one of the guys that they're trying
to really use the charity to show you how great

(01:27:43):
their top babyface is. Titus is a genuinely charitable guy.
He's made some headlines for it. I don't think they
have any intention of making him, you know, putting him
on the same level as John Cena or Roman Reigns,
and so to go ahead and use him in that
role I thought was refreshing.

Speaker 1 (01:27:57):
Oh I agree, And there's you know, they could certainly think, oh,
we got to save these spots for bigger names, but
I'm glad that they were willing to give that spot
to him.

Speaker 2 (01:28:10):
So yeah, with Downe, that okay.

Speaker 1 (01:28:12):
The Dudley's, yeah, they kind of are they the ninety
seven Road Warriors. The Dudleys were not a vincent man creation.
The Road Wars are not a vincent man creation, so
maybe there's a little less Vince might hold that against
them a little bit. Whereas like the New Age all
As were his creation, so you know, they get a
little bit more of a they got a better I
think the New Age All has got a better nostalgia
push than the Dudleys have.

Speaker 4 (01:28:33):
Jason, they did, and they shouldn't have.

Speaker 17 (01:28:35):
You know, you say they should have flip flopped those two,
that's for sure, because the Outlaws never should have won
the tag titles when they did. And I think, you know,
the Dudleys didn't have to win the tag titles. But
it's just seeing the way they're utilized. You don't really
hear from Bubba Ray, and he's such a good talker.
I'd like to see them turn heel at this point
and ditch the silly looking glasses. It's just that makes

(01:28:55):
them look like a nostalgia act. It's I'm sure people
watching that that don't have that familiarity with the dudleyser
like what is with the goofball glasses. I'd just like
to see them modernize the act a little bit. I
was excited when they came back. I think they have
something to offer to that tag division, but in WWE style,
it feels like they've already burned through it because they
don't see it. They just they're using them to in

(01:29:17):
their minds elevate New Day, and I don't think they
did it in a way where New Day was really
elevated in any way, And now the Dudleys are kind
of damaged goods.

Speaker 1 (01:29:26):
Yeah, I'm disappointed, genuinely disappointed with the potential for the Dudleys,
even in the short run, to do something, and then
what they ended up getting out of them. I just
think from a pure business number standpoint, they got twenty
percent out of what they could have gotten out of
the Dudleys in a six month span based on the
way they utilized them.

Speaker 4 (01:29:46):
I agree.

Speaker 1 (01:29:47):
All right, Jason, we'll wrap up on that note. We're
about an hour and a half into this. Unless there's
any final topic you want to get to.

Speaker 2 (01:29:53):
Before we sign off.

Speaker 4 (01:29:54):
No, it sounds good. We made it through another week.

Speaker 1 (01:29:57):
Yeah, we did, and I think with a little bit
more where more wind in our sales. When it comes
to the WWE product, I think we thought it was
a better show last night, more steps in the right
direction than not. Still some concerns, but a lot of yeah,
a lot of just kind of reshuffling of the deck
enough to give us some new things to talk about
this week, which is a good thing.

Speaker 17 (01:30:19):
Yeah, and again I still think it was kind of
a one night band aid with the format that kind
of gave a lot of matches a purpose that they
usually don't have. And so I'm curious to see if
what they do next week, if they can actually develop
some momentum, or if this was just kind of I'll
enjoy it because they really don't have any you know,
they really don't have any new tricks.

Speaker 4 (01:30:38):
It's just kind of it was a one night deal.

Speaker 1 (01:30:40):
Yeah, and the aspect I did like a Color brought
it up, and I mentioned on the Color Hotline last
night that at least the winners at the pay per
view got a chance at a championship. I like anytime
they give match outcomes meaning, especially kind of unexpected meaning,
and I thought that was kind of a treat that
they might have even planned ahead enough to have knowne
that was going to happen. I haven't really sat down
and looked at the pay per view finishes to think, oh,

(01:31:01):
were they thinking about Raw when they booked the pay
per view or did they Monday come up with this,
But either way, I liked that they gave the match
out comes Sunday night. Some meeting on Monday Night. But yeah,
it was kind of a gimmicky format that they'll have
to stray from starting next week.

Speaker 17 (01:31:14):
But did I miss it or did they just like
decide Brock we don't need to bring up that Brock
Lesner won.

Speaker 1 (01:31:21):
I boy, the opening video package when Cole talked about
turnabout was fair play.

Speaker 4 (01:31:27):
I oh no, no, not that he won the match,
but he won the match and he wasn't in their tournament.

Speaker 1 (01:31:31):
Oh okay, well yeah, I mean yes, sting Sina Lesner
out of sight, out of mind. We're not going to
talk about him because we want you to focus on
something else. And I mean that's their policy, for better
for worse. I guess I'm I'm just sort of expecting it.

Speaker 4 (01:31:47):
At this point.

Speaker 17 (01:31:47):
And there's your chance to you know, make counter and
Stephanie Heels by not letting him in for some you know,
convoluted reason, or or just simply saying, hey, this guy
got nine staples and the and the medical team has
deemed him unfit to PTE and so he can't be
in this sorry, and just you know, like a quick
throwaway line and you move on, but instead you getting nothing,
and people are left scratching their heads.

Speaker 2 (01:32:08):
I agree, yep.

Speaker 1 (01:32:09):
It's not serving the audience and respecting the audience in
the continuum of the narrative stories that they tell when
they just leave major stars just you know, oh, you
paid your money, they head their match. Now we're gonna
just recap it and pretend it's not weird that they're
not here. And you know they did that with Sting
last month too. All right, Jason, thank you so much.
Thanks dot un members and p W Torch VIP members
for joining us today. Until next time, i'd be out

(01:32:31):
to Jason Powell wad Keller signing off, I invite you
to email the show with feedback or questions or comments.
That email address is Wade Keller Podcast at petewtorch dot com.
That's Wadekeller Podcast at PW torch dot com. Also welcome

(01:32:53):
your feedback on Twitter. You can follow us on Twitter
at PW Torch and follow me at the Wade Keller
That's at PW Torch and at the Wave Keller.

Speaker 17 (01:33:04):
Searching for more great pro wrestling talk, then join me
Jason Powell host them the free weekly Pro Wrestling Boom podcast.
Each week, you'll hear the latest news and analysis from
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(01:33:26):
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Speaker 1 (01:33:35):
Thanks for listening to our podcast. Did you know we
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Speaker 9 (01:34:00):
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