10 YRS AGO FLAGSHIP: Keller & Powell discuss retched Reigns-Sheamus segment, would Reigns even be good if he turned heel, decline of Raw

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Now.

Speaker 4 (01:37):
PW Torch and Spreaker bring you the Wade Killer Pro
Wrestling Podcast.

Speaker 2 (01:46):
Ten years ago.

Speaker 1 (01:47):
This week on the flagship Jason Powell Pro Wrestling dot
Net joined me and we talked about invented, about the
decline of Monday Night Raw, the Wretched final segment with
Shamus and Roman, reignsridiculous USA Network commercials with Rains and
the Wyatt family, and more with a ton of caller
interaction and no shortage of passionate rants. And then in

(02:08):
the VIP exclusive after show, we continued our discussion about Raw,
including weather Roman Rains would even be good at being
a heel if he turned spoiler alert, Yes he'd be great,
but it'll take a while, plus email questions from listeners,
So let's get to it. This originally live streamed on
December eighth, twenty fifteen, and it is today's Wade Keller
Pro Wrestling Podcast ten years ago Flakeship flashback for Sunday,

(02:29):
December seventh, twenty twenty five.

Speaker 4 (02:32):
Torch.

Speaker 1 (02:44):
Welcome to the p W Torch Live Cast. I am
Wade Keller, editor and publisher of the Pro Wrestling Torch
weekly newsletter since nineteen eighty seven. Also pwtorch dot com,
the website updated with news editorials, live TV covers, live
paper coverage, special features, in more every day throughout the
day at pw torch dot com launched in nineteen ninety nine.

(03:07):
Also the PW Torch app available and iios is in
the Apple Store and also the Google play Store and Android.
And host of this the PW Torch Live Cast, I
host on Tuesdays and Thursdays. We are the only live
five days a week pro wrestling talk show. Oh wait,
that's what Taz said. Wait we both are live five
days a week all right. Along with Taz, we're the
five days a week pros and Talks show, although I

(03:30):
think our pro wrestling talk ratio is a little higher
than TAZ, which these days may may be good or
bad at least as far as it relates to WWE.
We are going to have this be a little bit
of a I don't know, a venting session where we'll
try to I don't know. It's kind of like a
call in show after your team gets destroyed in an

(03:52):
NFL Sunday matchup. You know, you just kind of you
want to be with other people who are suffering like
you and I guess, and who are upset like you are,
And that's what we're gonna do today. Or maybe you
like something about Ron you want to focus on the positive,
We're certainly we're certainly open to that. Also, since it

(04:14):
is Tuesday, Jason Paul be joining me momentarily. I do
want to note and oh my gosh, I just scroll
through our caller list and we have a lot of callers,
so we're gonna take a lot of calls today. Jason
Paul from Progressing dot Net will be joining me momentarily.
I do want to do make a programming note. Jim
Ross will be joining me on Thursday. The great wrestling
play by play voice who is greatly missed right now.

(04:38):
With all due respect to the current announced team and
all announcers in all the wrestling history, the voice of
Jim Ross could make a big difference right now. Wouldn't
fix everything, but I think Jim Ross is a voice
who can help get over the athletic sports like side
of pro wrestling that densic Mann and his inner circle
greatly undervalue as something that pro wrestling fans want. And

(05:00):
he also was good at helping create new stars by
putting the heat in the right places and putting sympathy
in the right places and accentuating the good and not
just rolling through the variety show calling the action as
if it doesn't matter. And we'll be talking to Jim.
He's had a frustrating week. He had his Twitter account
ACKed and he's got a million plus followers that he's

(05:22):
unable to reach. He will be here on Thursday to
talk about what's going on in WWE. Some big interviews
he has coming up. In fact, he's got part two
of his Kevin Sullivan interview that drops tonight over at
Podcast one. Jim emailed earlier today and said that the
conversation includes Chris ben Wah in that situation. I know

(05:43):
people are going to want to hear what Kevin Sullivan
had to say about that situation, given his connection obviously
with that situation and his history with Chris ben Wan
a personal level with anyway with Nancy Sullivan. But so yeah,
that out tonight, and if you want to react to
that interview too, you're certainly welcome to on Thursday when

(06:05):
Jim joins me the what's the other subjects he talked
about too that I was going to bring up, Oh yeah,
what Kevin Sullivan would do to book brock Lesner. I'm
interesting what Kevin said about that. Kevin, you know, he's
got a raised profile the last couple of years. He
was kind of the forgotten primary player in the Rise
of Monday Nitro. You know, people talk about Eric Bischoff

(06:26):
all the time. I bring up Zane Breslat for some
of his innovative live event ideas, you know, making pre
sales and event taking Nitro to different settings to freshen
up the show. The I mean, there's a lot of
things Zane did that I think Eric Bischoff to this
day doesn't give Zane proper credit for because I was
on the phone was Zaye and Eric, but more so
Zaane in those those years multiple times a week, and

(06:50):
I know how important Zaine was. But Kevin Sullivan was
the booker of w W AND and was good at
getting heat on heels and had his flaws as a booker.
I wasn't the most rounded booker that I've ever seen,
but he was a primary player behind the scenes booking
Monday Night tro during its peak era, and sometimes he

(07:10):
gets left off the history book. So he'll be talking
about that with Jim Ross and how he booked WCW
and also what he thinks the business needs to grow.
So if you want to talk to Jim about that
interview or about Raw, about his career, anything, he'll be
joining me on Thursday Live, five o'clock Eastern. We are
here five days a week, Monday through Friday, Mondays after Row.
If you want to hear an immediate call in show,

(07:36):
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Pwtorch dot Com Slash paper Copy take a break from
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(08:19):
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trial subscription. PW Torch dot Com Slash paper Copy are
going to take calls throughout the show and the phone
number if you want to get in line. It's a
long line already, so maybe you want to hold off

(08:40):
until we say the phone lines are cleared a little,
but I'll give the number anyway. Six four, six, seven
two one nine eight two eight. I'll bring Jason into
the conversation right now, and then after that we will
take our first break and come back and start taking
rapid fire calls. Jason Welcome to the show. How have
you recovered from not just last night, but also Sunday
with our Vikings getting decimated?

Speaker 5 (09:02):
You know, the Viking thing, I've just kind of accepted.
I didn't have a good feeling about that game them.
You lose all those defensive players right away. They were
gonna lose anyway, So I'm not using that as an excuse.
Raw that's a little tougher to swallow because it's just
bad right now. And it seems like every week we're here,
this is the week they're gonna start doing. They're gonna
shake things up, They've got a different vision, and nothing changes.

Speaker 1 (09:24):
It's just the same team sixteen.

Speaker 5 (09:28):
That was the best. That was as close as they
came to at least trying something different on this show.
I was talking to our buddy Brian Fritz from Between
the Ropes dot Com earlier and he thought the change,
the change he saw was that they were blurring the
lines again. They with you Page in Charlotte, and then
you had the Wyots out there with the League of

(09:50):
Nations and know and the list goes on. And he's
not justifying that as like a good move by any means.
And I mean that it's I don't know if that
that's by design, Wade, if that's really what they think
is a solution to their problems, or if it's just
Vince McMahon has lost his mind. Either way, what we're
seeing on Raw right now is terrifying if you want

(10:13):
the future of Raw to be strong, because they are
not taking any steps forward.

Speaker 1 (10:18):
I am so so against blurring of the lions. I
think it's absolutely stupid. I just pro wrestling is about
creating a situation where you're rooting for somebody to win.
I mean, if the NFL decided to blur the lines
so that you never had a strong feeling about who

(10:39):
you wanted to see win, it's all about football and
these wacky personalities on the teams, ratings would plummet. Yes,
I mean fans watch for the football, but they mostly
watch because they have a rooting interest in somebody winning.
And that segment, I mean, there's so many things bad
about Raw last night, and again, Jason, your pole results
were just astounding three weeks in a row, overwhelming grade

(11:00):
to the show among your readers, and there was nobody
to like in that segment. Nobody. I mean, I don't
get where Vince McMahon or anybody thinks, oh, we're gonna
blur the lines. It's gonna be like Housewives of Atlanta,
where you don't like anybody. It's like, that's not pro wrestling.
If you don't want to be in the pro wrestling business,
get the f out of the pro wrestling business. But

(11:21):
pro wrestling is about rooting for somebody to win a
simulated combat, and WWE is losing sight of it, and it
is pissing me off. It pisses me off watching a
show that's so poorly done. It pisses me off that
nobody's standing up to vinc wick mannon and saying this sucks.
Look at the viewers who were losing week after week
after week. I don't get it, Jason, I just I

(11:42):
really don't understand what is going on in vinsick Man's
head that these are the adjustments he's making, or he's
just believing that this doesn't count. It's some external force
driving people away from watching his live flagship show every week.

Speaker 5 (11:59):
It's just a mass. There's there's no there's there's just
not a light at the end of the tunnel. Unless
you're a huge John Cena fan and you know, he's
coming back, and I don't know what good that's going
to do right now, because there's really no one over
for him to work with. There's I just see a
roster filled with people that they've they've done significant damage to,

(12:21):
and rather than just getting back to the basics of
pro wrestling booking, they are just all over the map
right now, trying to be too cute in some places,
blurring the lines and others, and it's it's the wrong
move to make. They're doing more damage to these already
damaged characters at a time when I really thought, all right,
they lost all these people due to injury. Scene has gone.
They're gonna roll up their sleeves and just get back

(12:43):
to the basics, and they're gonna start. They're gonna realize
that they've done some damage and they need to undo
that as best they can. Instead that they're just piling on.

Speaker 1 (12:52):
I was communicating with somebody last week whose opinion is
respected by most people, and Jim Ross and my guests
on Thursday, it wasn't Jim. I just want to make
that clear. And his quote about Raw and what's going
on with WWE is it's beyond frightening. And he just
went on to say, you know that the approach they're
taking is wrong. This isn't typical bitching about oh back

(13:13):
in the day, this, and that this isn't about resisting change,
it's about resisting stupidity. And so I want that clear
that this is not that we're not forward thinking and
progressive and we just want things to be they were
when we were kids, or back into another era, and
we're not appreciating that the world has changed and entertainment
has changed. This is just a bad pro wrestling product.

(13:35):
As this person noted, the roster is miscast, the format
has run its course. The words that they use to
promote the product don't resonate with the audience anymore. It's
absolutely a mess that needs to be blown up. They
have so many ways of approaching their product right now
that are bankrupt, that are not working, And as I
put on Twitter, they are going to stubbornly push forward

(13:58):
to prove their right until there's no viewers left, because
that's where they're headed with this product. And I you know,
there's times I don't like something, but it's like it
doesn't show up in numbers. You know, I'm like, well,
I can you know, make my argument that I think
it's hurting loyalty or brand aware or you know, brand
loyalty or building stars and stuff, but it's kind of intangible.

(14:19):
This is more than that. I mean the silence in
the building, the echoing in the building. For the seamous
Roman reign segment, I put a clip up, actually a
follower amount on Twitter. Did it when requested of the
reaction the body language of Roman reigns. You can watch
the gift on at the Wade Keller just screw through
my Feet. I retweeted it on at PW Torch also.

(14:42):
But there's a moment when he's on top of the
ladder and he finally calls out Seamus and Seamus's music plays,
and so Roman's getting what he wants. He's getting the
heel to come out when he requested him. So he
should be happy, you know, he should be on that
leader going, yeah, come on, teach what lesson you want
to teach me, shaman? You know that that's his attitude.
But instead, when Seamus's music played, he started to work

(15:05):
his way down the ladder, so he had to look
down and he figured the camera was off of him.
That's my assumption based on watching this play out, but
the camera stayed on I'm a second and a half
longer than I think he expected, and he had this
look of utter defeat, like he had just been thrown
out there in a losing product, in a losing situation,
and he was bombing. And I mean, it speaks for itself.

(15:27):
Most people looking at that clip are interpreting it the
way that I saw it. I think it was a
second and a half that tells the story of WWE
right now. A bunch of talent that's miscast. I think
they've lost their confidence and they're you know, in Roman's
a guy who says, yeah, drop me into the drop
me into the formula, and I'll do my part, and
I'll be your top guy and I'll get rich. And

(15:49):
I think he's losing confidence in that system. And I
think he's losing confidence as a performer too. If he's
capable of that, maybe he's just got a teflon ego and
he thinks that somebody else's fault and it's the fans
fault for not accepting him. I think it's affecting even him.
It's just it feels like a team that's tanking it
to get a first round draft pick right now, except
the general manager thinks they're playing hard for the playoffs

(16:11):
and and it's it's it's an absolute mess. I don't
want to do too many rants because I really do
want to hear from callers and get their feelings on things.
So we're going to go to our first break of
the show. When we come back, we're going to go
right to phone calls. So everybody on hold, stay tuned.
I ask everybody please be concise. Don't act like we
surprised you when you get on the show. You called us,

(16:32):
have your thoughts ready, don't want, don't meander. We're not
looking to fill five minutes with you. We want to
get your concise to the point thoughts, and we want
to get to a lot of callers. And so please
keep that in mind as we roll through calls. All right,
here we go to our first break, and uh, I'll
take a deep breath while we uh while we get
ready for calls. As a listener of the PW Torch

(16:54):
Live cast, it's obvious your progressing fan who likes Pro
Wrestling Podcast. Now there's a new website for you.

Speaker 6 (17:00):
Hi.

Speaker 1 (17:00):
I'm PW Toorge, Managing Editor, Waykeller and I'm excited to
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(17:46):
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Speaker 2 (17:49):
Check it out.

Speaker 1 (17:50):
That's pwpodcasts dot com. All right, we are back. I
want to remind people as you're shopping this holiday season
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(18:53):
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bit of the cut that they would keep themselves. All right,
We now go to the phone lines. I am Wade
Keller of Pro Wrestling torchpw torch dot com and I'm
joined by Jason Powell from Pro Wrestling dot Net. Jim
Ross joins me on Thursday, same time, same place and
perhaps similar topics. All right, we go to the phone

(19:14):
lines now aera code three to one oh three one oh.
Thanks for calling your up. First state your name and
where you're calling from.

Speaker 7 (19:19):
Hey, guys, is Tom from a Los Angeles.

Speaker 8 (19:22):
How's it going?

Speaker 1 (19:23):
I'm doing good? Good here from you, Tom. Good way
to start the show. What's on your mind today?

Speaker 8 (19:26):
Yeah? So yeah?

Speaker 7 (19:28):
I mean, first off, I just want to start off
by saying that the hook WWE gave us for the
end of last night was that Seamus was going to
teach Roman Reigns a lesson.

Speaker 9 (19:39):
I mean, I just if you just sit back and.

Speaker 7 (19:41):
Think about that, they're in a ratings lull. They have
three hours to build to something, and we're supposed to
sit around for a three hour and fifteen minute show
to watch a lesson be taught.

Speaker 9 (19:51):
I mean that, just myself is ridiculous.

Speaker 7 (19:54):
I think, you know, I echo so much of what
you're saying. Right, This is going so far beyond. They're
booking a bad wrestling show. They don't know how to
run a business, right now. I mean, if you just
let's go three weeks ago Survivor series, right, if my

(20:15):
job and I'm not a wrestling booker, right, I call
him to the show. I pretend, but may I know
what I'm doing, But at the end of the.

Speaker 10 (20:21):
Day, they should know way more than I do.

Speaker 7 (20:23):
And if I'm looking at a situation and I say,
all right, Rains is not getting the response from the crowd.
If we turn him heel, it sets us up for
an Ambrose feud through the row Rumble, then potentially a
Lesner feud, which actually might now mean something With Rains
as a heel, then you could maybe transition that into
a scene of feud and then eventually transition that into

(20:44):
Rowlins coming back.

Speaker 10 (20:45):
As a face.

Speaker 7 (20:46):
Well, hey, you've just booked basically a year of television
if you keep Rain's a face. Well, now we have
Seamus as the heel champion, we have Lesner feud which
makes no sense, and Rains continues to get boots. I
just from a basic business perspective, it would you know.
I just don't get how they can look at that

(21:09):
as one situation where you set yourself up up for
a year, another situation where you make Seamous champion and
make that decision.

Speaker 10 (21:16):
And what are they doing?

Speaker 1 (21:18):
Jason, I rant to a lot this show. What are
your thoughts on this? I'm gonna throw to.

Speaker 5 (21:21):
You here, it's time to turn, it's time to give
it up. You can't get him over right now as
a babyfish.

Speaker 11 (21:26):
There aren't.

Speaker 5 (21:27):
They do not have the heels to make that happen.
You're not going to get Roman Reigns over more than
he is now by booking him against Shamus when they're
desperately trying to get Seamous in that, trying to get
him over. I just don't think it's possible. They can
go out there and tear it up on Sunday and
for one night, for one crowd in a pay per
view audience, Okay, but come Monday you're back to the

(21:50):
same thing. I just don't think it's possible, Wade, and
I think everything he laid out there is true. And
the only thing that I can think of that why
you would consider anything else is if they're just held
bent on Roman Reigns being being the baby face and
there's some master plan to turn John Cene at once
he returns because they desperately need a top heel. It's

(22:11):
not Seamous. I think they know that, So who is
it if it's If it's not Roman Reigns and it's
not John c in a way, is there someone I'm
missing to.

Speaker 1 (22:19):
Be the top babyface, to be the top heel? Oh
to be the thought? Okay, I was trying to be
clear on that. That is a major issue, and in fact,
John Scene and Roman Rains turning heel seems to be
what what I the only thing that I think could
shock people into tuning into raw again. And obviously Sena
turning heel would mean more, but there's more to risk

(22:42):
because Sena. Say what you will about Sena and Todd
Martin on The Fix certainly has a strong point of
view on this set. You know, Sena has a fan base,
but there's a big part of the potential wresting audience.
It just is not giving the WWE brand a chance.
Was seen as the face of the company, and I
think there's there's validity to that point of view for sure.
But what we do know is seen it drives a

(23:02):
lot of merchandise sales. He does make a difference in ratings,
he does draw, but in a year and a half
he's going to be forty years old. He's showing his
age now. I mean I was looking through some old
photos of John Cena earlier this week and I was like, wow,
you know, I mean, you know, I was wondered. You know,
it just seemed like he's somebody who would just forever
look young, and he's starting to show the wear and tear.

(23:22):
And I think the interview that he did that I
wrote about in last week's Progressing Torture newsletter, I thought
was really revealing and I went in depth on it
in the newsletter, which BFP members can read at people
youetorchpip dot com. Where I thought he was showing signs
of I don't know fatigue as a word, but under
maybe fatigue mental and physical, but also just understanding it's
time to kind of look for that next chapter. But

(23:45):
if Roman Range turns healed, the upside to that is
I think he'll be spectacular. I mean, I think, you know,
I'm not. You know, it's a minority right now, because
a vast majority don't think Roman Range is working out
as a babyface. I think it says a parent, it's
just about anything I've seen in wrestling. I mean, in
terms of somebody getting a major push, I don't know
that I've ever seen such apathy. It's not even it's

(24:07):
not even ditriolic rejection. It's just apathy, like, we don't
like you that much, but you're kind of cool. You
seem like you should be a pro wrestler, but you're
just you're not in a role that we're embracing, and
so we're gonna sit here and wait till the genius
pensic man and his inner circle come up with something
better for you that we care about. That's that's kind
of what I think the reaction is. I don't think
there's like this this hatred for Roman, but I think

(24:28):
if Roman turned on the heal personality that he showed
an NXT kind of watch what Baron Corbin's doing in
n NXT, because Baron's doing a really nice job body
language wise, I think Roman could spark things as one
of the hottest heels we've seen in a long time.
So I think there's other options. But all the other
options take a real vision and a real commitment to
changing how they're currently portrayed. So it's it's tough. It's tough, Tom.

(24:52):
I mean, I think you're right when you look at
that list. They have not prepared themselves well, and they've
had such a narrow definition of who is worth protecting
and pushing with everybody else going into the mid card,
even Stephen Booking, where they all just kind of hover
in this purgatory of not being over and nobody feeling passionate.
They have, I mean, they've painted themselves into a corner here.

(25:13):
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Speaker 7 (25:46):
Right, I mean, wait, if you really just think about it,
I mean, think of it as outside of a wrestling terms, right,
I mean one of the number one things when you
think about marketing a product, right, is that you know
people will always say, don't try and go outside of
your own pool, you know, don't you know some companies think, hey,
I serve alcohol, right, that means every person are you know,

(26:07):
I have an app. Every single person in the world
uses apps, so that is a customer base for me.

Speaker 5 (26:13):
Right.

Speaker 7 (26:13):
WWE has hurt themselves for so long because they've done
everything they can to not be a wrestling company.

Speaker 5 (26:19):
Right.

Speaker 7 (26:19):
They've tried to pull in fans outside of the wrestling
pool constantly for years and years and convince people that
this isn't what they actually do. And I mean it's
just they're paying for it now and they're not paying
attention to basic They're just not seemingly paying attention, right.
I Mean, like, let's say you had a section on
your site that was getting five thousand clicks a day,

(26:41):
and you had another article that you loved and it
was your favorite thing on the site, but it was
only getting seven clicks a day, and no matter what
you did, you're pushing, you know, the article that you
wanted on the front page over and over and over again,
refusing people to give people what they want. I mean,
if you look at what they are doing right now
and other business perspectives, it's just it's absurd. It is absurd,

(27:02):
and who's going to put their foot down? And who
can put their foot down? I just I don't know.
It's crazy what's going on with this company right now?

Speaker 1 (27:11):
It is This is different, Tom thinks are called I mean,
really well stated and a great way to kick off
the show. Jason, this is different, This is a different moment.
This isn't Oh. I can't believe what they're doing with
Daniel Bryant, although that was symptomatic of what's manifesting now
in terms of an arrogance and a corporate branding over

(27:31):
getting wrestlers over. And we have to prove that sports
entertainment is something that actually is different than pro wrestling.
And what they've done is taken away all the things
that people like about pro wrestling and turned it into
this kind of variety show of bad comedy, pop culture references,
a bunch of even Stephen mid Carters and apathy towards

(27:55):
towards the characters with a bunch of blurry lines where
you don't really feel all that strongly about most everybody
on the on the show. And Vince mcmady finds that
as well, that sports entertainment because he's so hell bent
on not being a pro wrestling promoter, and if he
doesn't watch it, he's not going to be a pro
wrestling promoter because pro wrestling on a large scale will
cease to exist if he doesn't decide to embrace it,

(28:16):
or somebody in that company doesn't decide to embrace what
pro wrestling at its core is, which is somebody you
want to root for and somebody you're rooting against, like
a great NFL game or a great YOC fight, and
treating those wins and losses as important in the championships
as why everybody has gathered, and so much of that
is just absent, and you know, every once in a
while it shows up and it's what the parts of

(28:39):
the show that people like, and then it goes away.
So yeah, it's for us, It's it's I mean, I
just there's just got to be people in that company,
so many people in that company so frustrated right now
who agree with what I'm saying. I mean, this is
a thing I'm not. This is not an indictment of
everybody with power in that company. This is indictment of
Vince McMahon and his vision and what he is forcing

(29:03):
as a vision that is a losing formula right now,
and he's looking at other metrics to justify it. But
it's the leading indicator. And I wrote this in an
editorial I put up this weekend. I hope you'll check
it out at PW torch dot com. Just go to
the opinion section. We have a whole menu strip right
under our logo at PW torch dot com and click
on opinion and analysis and go to Keller's Takes, and

(29:25):
it's the top one there. And it is about why
ratings matter, because they're just some ridiculous I'm trying to
be not too angry by it, but it's just some
ridiculous comments out there about oh, ratings don't matter, you know,
Roe Dog, Jesse James, Brian James, BG James. I'm saying, oh,
it's a it's an it's an archaic measurement. It was
just a stupid comment. It's not true. There are editorials

(29:48):
up at other websites saying, oh, come on, it's a
big of a deal. Evan Bourne had something up going, well,
it's not as accurate as clicking measuring clicks on a website,
so can we really trust it? And and all that
it's just it's, as I wrote in that editorial, what
economists call a leading indicator in the economy. There's things
that happen that poor tend future bad things or future

(30:10):
good things, and people who want to be ahead of
the game, especially when it comes to the stock market
or investing in certain commodities and that kind of thing,
they look for leading indicators. TV ratings are the leading
indicator because choosing to watch raw or not watch raw
is the easiest thing in the world. You don't have
to log into anything, you don't have to cancel anything,
you don't have to find anything. It's just you don't

(30:30):
spend any money. It's something that if you're excited, you
watch it. If you're not, you don't. And it's a
leading indicator of how people feel. And it's going to
start showing up in other ways if they don't change
what they're doing, and I mean big, big philosophical put
the pride aside. What we've been doing isn't working. We're
going to shake things up. I'm going to listen to
other points of view and we're going to try something

(30:53):
very different. And I don't think they can wait till
January to start. I think it's got to start tonight,
but maybe put some thought in do it and start
next week. All right, let's go to seven or three. Next.
VIP Express line caller Joe Virginia, Thanks for calling. What
have you got for us today?

Speaker 12 (31:11):
Hey guys, I was listening to the Bruce Mitchell audio
show the other day. You guys were talking about the
NWA World's Championship Wrestling shows. I used to watch those
as a kid, so there's some nostalgia in those coming back.
I actually re upped my network's subscription just because of
the stuff they put up in the vault here recently.

(31:33):
And I'm two shows in from nineteen eighty five, and
I got to say, I'm already excited about starr K
eighty five and going back and watching that. I am
so much more interested in that pay per view than
anything that the WWE has promoted, probably since I don't know,
I don't even know when. I can't remember. But they

(31:54):
knew how to do it back then, just by doing
the basics, like everything you guys were talking about it.
They just knew how to promote and get you invested
in matches in a way that they know we're close
to doing.

Speaker 1 (32:06):
Now, Joe, does it come across to you, because it
does to me that Vince McMahon thinks people could possibly
like pro wrestling. But we have this brand in this
corporation with all these viewers, and we need to give
them something that they would actually care to watch, because,
my god, who would actually want to watch pro wrestling,
especially in twenty fifteen when everybody knows it's all a

(32:28):
show in wwweast on their part to do it. And
what stands out to me because I was doing the
same thing you were doing going through the first two
shows of World Championship Wrestling in WANTBS six so five
from the mid eighties that just got added to the
network that Bruce Mitchell and I did an hour orientation
on for VIP members, by the way on Sunday, and
I'm watching and that feeling that people on that show

(32:50):
like pro wrestling, that they are, that they don't look
down on fans who pay tickets, walk through the turnstile,
walk into the arena, just want a story to believe in.
They want to get into the fight, so they want
someone to root for, someone to root against, and they
want to believe just for that moment, for that span
of time that they're in that building, they want to

(33:10):
believe and when they watch TV, they want to want
everybody on that show to seem like they're taking what
they do seriously. And I just to me, that's what
stands out when you watch the old shows is the announcers,
the wrestlers, the managers all create a situation where the
fans don't feel foolish for getting invested in rooting for
somebody to win a fake fight because they don't remind

(33:31):
you of it constantly, and they give you a reason
to want to root for somebody.

Speaker 12 (33:34):
Yeah, everybody's actions on that show, it's as if they're
following what their own character would be doing. There was
a match with JJ Dillon and his guys Thunderfoot I
think his name is, where Dylan's just outside.

Speaker 10 (33:48):
Of the ring.

Speaker 12 (33:49):
He's trying to cheat and the referee looks over at him,
and Dylan's just he acts like, oh, you know, he's
reaching under the ring ropes and he acts like I'm
just sweeping something out of the ring.

Speaker 8 (33:57):
You know.

Speaker 12 (33:57):
It's like this improvisational Yeah, make perfect sense that they
don't They don't do it now because there's not a
producer saying, well, you need Zack like you're you're doing
this or that. It's just natural. It's not something you
can write. One thing I did want to point out
about is I didn't realize until when I went back
and watched it yesterday, but how how technically bad David

(34:19):
Crockett is as an announcer. It never bothered me as
a kid, but I totally get it now. But at
the same time, he's so over the top into the
characters that I love him. His energy is so awesome,
like there's there's nothing about him either. Well, I don't know.
I haven't even watched Raw, to be honest with you,

(34:40):
since Byron Saxson has been part of the group, so
I can't compare those two. But the shows they hold up.
The wrestling is I think the wrestling is just as
good as any wrestling now. The endering work there, Some
of the job or matches go a little too long,
but they're still doing They're still doing good moves, you know,
and moves that makes and it's all that you can.

(35:03):
You can take it in.

Speaker 8 (35:04):
It's fun.

Speaker 1 (35:06):
It's fun, Joe to listen to announcers who are treating
what's happening seriously and talking about things going on elsewhere
in the promotion that make you more invested in everything
going on, you know, I just, I mean, there's there's
so many categories of what's wrong with rob right now.
In fact, it's just about everything. I mean, the format,
the production. It's stale, it's played out, it's tired. It

(35:27):
needs a fresh look, I would. I mean, it just
they need an Eric Bischoff, somebody with the vision to say,
here's a way to completely shake it up and make
it look different. And then we're not just going to
make it look different, We're going to really make the
content different and present the restlers differently, present theateries differently,
and just get people to take a fresh look at
the product. And yeah, and part of that with the

(35:48):
squash Matches is enjoying that you have announcers who are
invested in that product. I want to go to Jason
and Jason Paul from Progressing dot Net, my co host
today Jason the this this shame Us rain segment. For example,
we haven't even gotten into the USA Networksmackdowne commercials, which
is just a rant waiting to happen. And I'm for
the sake of the length of the show trying to

(36:09):
avoid the topic, but that segment felt so orchestrated at
the beginning, and then there were times where it seemed
like Roman was improvising a little bit, and it was
a really interesting study in how if left to his
own devices. I'm not saying Roman Rains is going to
be the next big thing, but there's something where he

(36:31):
relaxes a little bit, when he just kind of gets
in the flow and in the moment. And there's so
much of that on those NWA World Champion Wrestling TBS
six o five Saturday shows on the network, where it's
an announcer holding a microphone and a wrestler walks out.
They know their character, they take it seriously because their
pay depends on it, and they go out there and
they're just all in and they're cutting their promo and

(36:51):
sometimes it's there's some cliches or some kind of go
to lines, but they're speaking from the heart. And that
seamous Rains exchange at times was so I'm going to
say my line. Now, I'm going to say my line.
I hope I said my line, right, I hope I
remember what to say. Next, there was this this just
sterile manufactured aspect to it that was just miserable to

(37:14):
deal with or to its just it wasn't fun to
listen to.

Speaker 5 (37:19):
I didn't think it was going to end. It just
kept going and was like would by the time they
were finished. I didn't even want to see them get physical.
I just wanted to see them like end the show there,
like Seamus just walks off and that's it. I didn't care.
I didn't care about TLC, I didn't care about the
World Heavyweight Championship, none of it. At rains. I tell you,
if if when he goes off script and improvises, is

(37:42):
the teller that he says son after every third.

Speaker 1 (37:44):
Sentence, I probably it's probably.

Speaker 5 (37:50):
That's really bad as far as Seamus is concerned. He
was at his best when he was backstage throwing a
tantrum after losing Seamus Anger. Straightforward, Seamus works, Seamus out
there trying to do WWE writer comedy. It just fails miserably.

Speaker 1 (38:08):
I'm not that down on Seamus. I mean, I it's
I think he's carrying his end of what he's being
asked to do. Well. It's better than yeah. Yeah, I
mean Seamus is not doing a bad job. I mean
he's not like my dream top heel to get me
out of a rut. But he's much more believable and

(38:28):
authentic seeming, even in the scripted stuff, but especially when
he's taken out of that that aspect of having to
deliver what the writers are are coming up with, you know,
just there's some miserable lines and and I mean Roman
reigns and when he delivered one of those scripted jokes
and then he went he he he ha ha. Yeah,

(38:49):
Well I was hoping we could go through the show
without saying it, but yeah, I know, I mean, it's
it's it's unbelievable that there's a group of people putting
this script together thinking that this is what twenty fifteen
pro wrestlings winning formula and content should be. It's just
they're making it so much more difficult than it is,

(39:10):
and it just doesn't need to be that way. All right,
if you're just joining us, this is the PW Torch
live cast around five days a week, live Monday through Friday,
and have been for close to six years. And Jason
Paulferprogressing dot Net is my co host. Jason, go ahead
and plug your website and your membership and anything else
you want to let our listeners know about.

Speaker 5 (39:30):
Yeah, some really cool stuff on the site today. I
definitely recommend checking out Will pruitz Pause review of last
night's Raw. He actually watched the ninety minute.

Speaker 13 (39:40):
Need an extra dose of positivity in your wrestling podcasts,
will come join me Alan fourrel Over in the Progress
Paradise at pinew toorch VIP as we mask on the
bright side of wrestling and focus on some of the
great matches and shows from around the world, be it US, Japan,
Europe or Mexico. There's always a place for restlings past

(40:01):
in the Paradise too, and we've done fun historical shows
such as the We Love Liger series celebrating the glorious
career of Jusian thunder Lighter and our I was there
when shows where our guests will join me to talk
about a classic bout that they were in attendance for.
We love variety and you can expect lots of it
at the Progress Paradise. Detailed pw Torch VIP subscription information

(40:24):
and a list of all the VIP benefits is available
at pterwrew torch vipinfo dot com and yes, all VIP
podcasts are compatible with popular podcast apps on iPhone and
Android devices, or you can stream them directly from our
ad free VIP mobile site. See you in the Paradise.

Speaker 5 (40:45):
Always hit me up on Twitter at Pro Wrestling Net Excellent.

Speaker 1 (40:50):
We are back live on the Pope Torch Livecast, talking
primarily about yesterday's episode of Monday Night Rob, but we're
certainly willing to talk about other stuff, including as our
previous Color did the World Champion of Wrestling or NWA
World championpressing shows from the mid eighties that we're added
to the network. Let's let's continue to roll through calls
though a reminder too. If you call us, you have

(41:10):
to push one on your touchdown phone to enter the
caller queue. If you don't push one, you are not
in the color queue. You're simply just using the phone
line to listen to the show and there and we
will not bring you onto the show. So if you
do call six four six, you have to push one
in your touchdown phone. We've got over a dozen people
on hold, and we're going to go next to VFP
member Craig calling from Atlanta and Craig, welcome to the program.

Speaker 8 (41:38):
Hey guys, thanks for having me on.

Speaker 1 (41:40):
Yeah, thanks for calling. Good for me.

Speaker 14 (41:42):
So, Wade, you talked about leading indicators, and in this
case the ratings after months and months of bad product,
and especially the last couple of weeks, the bottom kind
of dropping out. We're really seeing that the biggest ratings
decline what in years? So what what do you guys
think is what? What's the next thing? What's the next
tangible thing we could see go? Do you think it's

(42:05):
live show attendance, merchandise sales, network subscriptions that I don't
know if there's any historical context that we could put
this in, but maybe in your best opinion, what what
if it continues this way? What goes away next?

Speaker 1 (42:20):
I think the most telling an immediate next wave that
will get vincick Mann's attention would be a drop in
advanced ticket sales. And keep in mind the crowds that
we're seeing now about their tickets in some cases months
ago and the early I mean, you can get good

(42:41):
walk up if they get the product hot, if they
get some wrestlers over, if they do some things of
spark interest where people actually want to be their live
to be part of history and they're excited about it,
they can get a good walk up to make up
for it. But internally they're going to see that those
ticket launch sales for upcoming raws and smackdowns and house
shows are going down. Jason, I think that's the next

(43:02):
wave that would get fensic Man's attention. The thing is
is the network. I mean, there's some good stuff on
the network that if you're a pro wrestling fan, forget
about RAW, forget about Roman Reigns and Shamus and all that,
it's worth ten. I mean, this is not bash WWE.
This is bashing what WWW's current main roster product is
because WWW network is great right now NXT with a

(43:25):
live takeover special coming. I don't necessarily agree some of
the pulling the curtain back. I think it's more counterproductive
than what they gain. But breaking ground is interesting, and
the table for threes and the archive content, especially the
couple of years of episodic week by week World Champion
Wrestling from the mid eighties programming, I mean, I just

(43:45):
lose your I mean it's I could lose myself in
that and not even have to think about the current products.
So there's a possibility that people are going to stick
around for the Rumble season in WrestleMania season before canceling.
I'm sure there's some people canceling out of frustration or
protest or apathy. Don't care about all the other stuff.
They just care about the main brand and the main wrestlers,
and if it's not there, they're going to cancel the network.
But to me, ticket sales, to specifically see the current

(44:08):
brand wrestlers, is where the next indicator would be of
a rejection of the product. Jason and I.

Speaker 5 (44:16):
Do think they can get some immediate to feedback just
by looking at their merch numbers. You know, I can't
imagine whatever if they are pimping something during raw, that
they're getting the same return they used to on an
ad for something. Just because viewership is down and the
product is bad. I think that, I mean, that should
be sending them some sort of a message as well.

(44:36):
But I agree that it's the ticket sales. I think
that is where they're going to notice it. And I
think we've even we talked about this recently. We're seeing
signs already that they that might be happening when I
don't know if they did it this week, but I
know last week they were telling us that tickets were
still available for this particular Raw show. That's something you
haven't been seen on WWE television for Raw in a

(44:58):
long time. And that's kind of a scary thing. I mean,
I'm a little more understanding of it for SmackDown. When
they do it, they I mean, they should be doing it,
I think on a regular basis. But if you if
you're selling out, you don't need to obviously, And I
think it really does send a message when all of
a sudden you start seeing that, and it's I got
to say with this ratings thing, if they really think
ratings don't matter, wait, I challenge them. I want to
see it. Did you know, graphic, did you know ratings

(45:20):
don't matter? Television ratings are meaningless? Please do it? After
all those times that they bragged about beating something in viewership,
it's time go ahead and just tell us, did you
know television ratings don't matter?

Speaker 1 (45:31):
Or yeah, let's add to it. Did you know Raw
ratings are down twenty two percent compared to one year ago?
And just a drag? But it's an archaic metric because
our stock value is higher than it was a few
months ago. And Wall Street is fooled into thinking that
certain numbers matter because they don't actually watch the product.
I'm curious how many wrestling fans who have watched WWE

(45:55):
weekend and week out for years how they feel about
how optimistic they are about the stock price, because there's
all kinds of numbers you can crunch looking at, you know,
cash on hand and profitability and deferred this expense and
something turning around. To me, what matters most of all
requires a long time, and by long time I mean

(46:15):
even several years. Somebody who's followed WWE for a handful
of years decades is better, and how they feel about
the wrestlers and the storylines and the product in general.
That to me is what I would base buy or
sell on unless I felt like Wall Street was just
totally undervaluing or you know, the stock price for some

(46:36):
you know, financial reason or overstating it. But if I
felt that, you know, okay, I think Wall Street knew
what they were doing on their crisis, My buyer sell
would be based on how people feel about the product
that's on the air, and the most the leading indicator,
the most obvious instant indication of how people feel is
the drop in audience on their flagship live show so

(46:58):
to me, stock is not I wouldn't be optimistic about
it right now unless you really think Vince is going
to pull a rabit out of the hat for wrestling
any a season, and I'm skeptical of that. Craig, do
you have any follow up before we let you go?

Speaker 2 (47:12):
No?

Speaker 14 (47:12):
That was great, guys, I really appreciate it. Enjoy your time,
and good luck to all of us.

Speaker 1 (47:17):
I guess thanks you bet. I ROW takes up three
hours and fifteen minutes plus I do you know, forty
five minutes or so of a recap talk about it
on this show and a couple other shows. But there's
a lot more to my week, thankfully, in this great job,
and it's watching other wrestling, new and old, and and
all kinds of stuff. So as much as Rob gets

(47:39):
me down, as far as my job goes, there's enough
other stuff that is good right now and worth writing
about it. And to be honest, I mean, I'd rather
Rob be really good. But my job has been through
many ups and downs. The industry has been through many
ups and downs, and since nineteen eighty seven when I
started the Torch, and it's it's a fascinating time, Jason,

(47:59):
when things get bad when things fall apart. I mean,
WW at the end wasn't fun to cover anymore because
it's just there was it was such a low IQ
booking going on, and the whole structure was was screwed
up in ways that aren't worth getting into right now
in detail. But I sort of felt like I almost
had lost hope on that. I'm not there right now

(48:21):
as far as as ww egos, even though I think
this is a very very serious downturn in the quality
of product, but it is, I mean, from the from
the chairs we sit in, Jason, it's fascinating to watch
something like this and to see how Vince McMahon and
the WWE machine responds or stubbornly doesn't respond to to

(48:41):
to what's going on right now.

Speaker 5 (48:43):
Oh for sure. And it does bring back memories though,
of the dying days of Nitro and some really bad
days in TNA, and they're using similar excuses and making
claims about ratings not mattering or you know, as Dixie
once said, it's you know, look at the plus threes
and destination or is thrilled with us? Yeah, yeah, that
that worked out really well, and we're seeing that now

(49:04):
from WW I mean there's just I can look at
old WCW nitrith been a long time. I can't say
I ever planned to go back and watch The Dying
Days again. But I don't remember feeling like I don't
know who's a heel and who's a baby face. I
mean I did at different times during Vince Russo's run,
of course, but I don't remember feeling that way. I
just watched this product and I don't know what they're doing.

(49:26):
I if it like the whole Charlotte thing, if it's like, well,
they're just kind of putting the pieces in the place
that they want to and it's gonna be kind of
a rough transition. I don't see that. I just I
really think they've lost it, and Vince has convinced himself
that this is this is gonna be great. We have
two women who don't like each other and they're both heels,
and then they're gonna sit around on Sunday and scratch

(49:46):
their heads and wonder why the crowd just sat on
their hands during this really good match.

Speaker 1 (49:50):
I know, I really, Vince has to be telling himself
a story right now, and you touched on it. Oh,
it's a transitional. We don't have seen it. We don't
have sas, We don't we don't have h. Randy Orton. Heck,
we don't even have Czarro and obviously Daniel Bryan and
heck even Sammy's ay and just a bad luck and
I can imagine him just you know, it's it's it's
telling NBCUniversal hanging there. You know, we just this is
a run of bad luck. It happens from time to time.

(50:12):
I bounced back before. You know, we're we're, you know,
rebuilding stage. We're trying to create new stars, growing pains.
We're gonna be fine in January and and that and
that's I'm I would put money on that being his
point of view and his inner circle of yes men's
point of view. But I think they're wrong because I
think everything they said is true. But there's something else,

(50:32):
really broken about the approach that he's taking that might
be temporarily tempered by somebody getting over, But I just
don't know who that's gonna be, and I don't see
it happening right now. Otherwise, I think they're not really
they're not really cognizant of why people are upset, as

(50:54):
upset with the product and it's not the lack of
Seth Rollins and John Cena, I mean, it's it really
is something else with the tone in the approach and
the philosophical way that they're they're they're presenting characters and storylines.
The whole tone of the show is off and it
just doesn't foster passionate emotional investment in the product. Right now,
anytime you're watching WWE Raw or SmackDown or aw Dynamite

(51:17):
in particular, send us an email if you've got thoughts
on the show or a topic you want us to
address or a question for us. Wadekeller Podcast at pwtorch
dot com. Wadkeller Podcast at pewtorch dot com. If there's
anything else going on in pro wrestling that you want
us to address on our main podcast during our mailbank segments,
that same email applies Wadekeller Podcast at pwtorch dot com.

(51:40):
We invite that interaction. Let us know what you think
of what we're saying, and let us know what you
want us to talk about and ask us specific questions.
Wadkeller Podcast at pw toorch dot com. Okay, let's keep
rolling through calls. This is the PW Torch livecast our
phone number six four six seven two one nine eight
two eight. Let's go to Damien X. If you remember

(52:02):
calling Damien, thanks for calling. What's on your mind today?

Speaker 10 (52:05):
Well, thanks for taking my call, fellas. It's just I've
done so many things I can say about Rob that
pretty much has already been said by YO guys as
well as other callers. So, in keeping with your wishes
to be clear, concise and to the point, I'm just
gonna listen.

Speaker 3 (52:20):
To my question.

Speaker 10 (52:21):
L All right, there's no problem check, Okay. Now, it's
clearly obvious from what you saw last night and what
we've seen in the past few months that Vince McMahon
simply just does not care about what the audience wants.
It's all about what Vince wants. And this brings to
my another tyrannical billion everybody the name of Donald Trump. Yes,

(52:46):
he's been in the news lately about what he said
about you know, you know the whole thing. You don't
have to get into it. The bottom line is I
think both of these guys pretty much think just the light.
They hit it off so well, especially the whole restumated
twenty three things Battle of the billionaires and that brings
and they growth have similar backgrounds. They both started off

(53:07):
being working under their fathers and then within a few
years owning their father's business and become the dominant forces
of their respective industries. Do you think that Vince McMahon
and Donald Trump are pretty much just alike and share
the same philosophies and ideology that they know what it
takes in order to give people what they want for

(53:29):
their shoes, not to because they're so rich, They're full
of money, and they feel like they can just do
whatever the hell they want in spite of what people
think about it. I just want to see what you
guys think about that.

Speaker 1 (53:41):
We have a related question Damien from Mark R. He
emailed the show and said, well, Ron proved when Vince
wick Mann steps down to be Donald Trump's running mate. Jason,
your take on this parallels between Vince mick Mann and
Donald Trump. I mean, Damien points out some bullet point

(54:02):
similarities between them. Right now, I would say Donald Trump's
numbers are better than Vince's. What he's saying is resonating
more with his fan base than Vince McMahon.

Speaker 5 (54:13):
That's the thing. Yeah, I mean, there's certainly similarity between them.
They're friendly. There's a rivalry there, even if it's not
a spoken rivalry. It Yeah, I guess I just say, yes.
I do think there's something too with Trump. I don't
know that it's so right now that it's so much
him saying I have money. I don't care as much
as I do think there's a little bit more in

(54:35):
some cases, some strategy to it, appealing to a certain
part of the demographic that actually wants to hear that
kind of crap. I'm not saying he doesn't fly off
the handle and say and add to it by saying
some even more ridiculous things with Vince, is it. I mean,
we know that the show is written for an audience
of one, but I think way that audience of the

(54:57):
person that that it makes up that audience of one
wants it to be well. Like I think he thinks
he knows better. He thinks he knows what we want,
even if we don't know it, and he thinks his
way is best and it served him well at many
times over the years, but right now is not one
of those times, and he's just apparently not willing to budge.

Speaker 1 (55:18):
I agree. I yeah, I mean, I think vincick Man.
Could I think Vincent. I think Donald Trump right now
is more successful at what he's doing than visick Man
is at what he is doing.

Speaker 5 (55:30):
Disturbing.

Speaker 1 (55:31):
Yes, So if if Trump flamed out, uh and and
wasn't leading the bulls, then I guess in the Republican
primary polls, then I guess you can make the case
that there's you know, more similarities. But I would say, yeah,
the difference is how they're being received right now. We
don't have the actual raw rating at Jason. I know

(55:52):
over at crossing dot net you've got the viewership hour
by hour numbers three point two million first hour, three
million second hour, two point eight five million third hour.
We compare that to two weeks ago, when they did
a two point one six rating. The viewership was three
point one or three point two million at the start

(56:14):
and then to about three million second hour and two
point seven million third hour. So from a viewership standpoint
two weeks ago, they averaged two point nine to six
million last night. Average of the three hours comes to
three point oh five four million. Not a huge difference,
it's not by any means a rebounded numbers. Both two

(56:35):
point nine six four rounds to three million and three
point oh four rounds to three point one million. I mean,
we're talking about not a huge difference in average viewership.
Last night, A bad Monday night football game probably held
well was it bad, Jason or did it? I guess
there was like a prowoks at the end.

Speaker 5 (56:53):
Yeah, it was a bad matchup on paper as far
as like quality of game is concerned. But it was
Dallas Cowboys and they're playing a division rival that's always
going to do big numbers, and yeah it was by
the sounds of it. I didn't see until the end.
It was like a six to six field goal best
terrible game until the last two minutes, and then one
of the coaches got really stupid and could have just

(57:14):
run the time down and kicked the game winning field
goal and decided to have his guy go ahead and score,
and then all hell broke loose. Jason Garrett got lucky
in the Cowboys one.

Speaker 1 (57:24):
So I haven't seen the they're probably out there, but
I haven't seen the Money Night Football ESPN numbers yet,
But I mean.

Speaker 5 (57:31):
It was up. It was up. I think a couple
of game this week.

Speaker 1 (57:34):
Okay, So viewership for raw did not bottom out. It
wasn't the lowest that we've seen in recent memory. It
was better than what we saw on two weeks ago,
so that but it's still there's still terrible numbers, you know.
I mean, there's still the lowest numbers we've seen in
eighteen years in terms of the percentage of people with

(57:56):
excess to RAW who are cable subscribers. The percentage of
those people watching Raw is lower than it's been in
almost two decades. The numbers not apples to apples, but
it's relevant when you look at the pattern of people
abandoning the show compared to what had been a more
steady decline since they went to three hours. This is

(58:16):
a sharper a I would say, drastically sharper drop offs
and viewership compared to from a year to year standpoint,
compared to any time in recent memory other than maybe
right after the Monday Night War boom period when percentage wise,
the drop off was greater. But those were a lot
of mainstream casual fans who had inflated the popularity pro

(58:37):
wrestling because it was a hot product going back to
other things, and they really hadn't been there before. Now
they're losing, they're driving away people who are part of
that core viewership that used to be four million and
now it's three million. And that I mean you could
say the core viewership used to be around four million,
and now they've driven away roughly twenty twenty five percent

(58:57):
of those core viewers compared to what the app which
was the past three four five years, and that that
is apples to apples, because Hulu was around, Netflix was around,
the Internet was around. Monday night football on ESPN was around.
A lot of things are steady. Raw ratings are not
all right. Back to the phone lines. Let's uh, let's
go next to aera code four seven eight on deck.

(59:20):
After that three or five four seven eight, Please state
your name and where you're calling from the uh George, Hey, Darrelle,
there you are. Go ahead. What have you got for
a stroke?

Speaker 3 (59:28):
All right?

Speaker 15 (59:29):
Yeah, okay, First I would like to start off. I
hope somebody you will hear this. I think they need
to go off.

Speaker 9 (59:36):
This quote.

Speaker 15 (59:36):
My teacher used to tell man, excuses are tools of incompetence.
You to bill to be a monument of nothing in
because WU comes up with a bunch of excuses, but
they does nothing and they build on anything so they
need to remember that quote this time they speak or
have people speak for them, because it's it's always somebody heard.

(59:57):
If the fans rejecting somebody, it's always something. So that's
my first thing. My next thing is I wanted to
hear y'all talk about how did y'all feel about that
that whole set that us a promo and General of
Roman reigned at the end, I thought it was one
after twenty seven years of watching rastling one of the
worst promos I ever heard. I think I never heard

(01:00:19):
anything it's worse than that. And then my last thing
is I think the WW should just blow up, not
just blow up everything that we see on television, but
their whole mindset on how they think who is a
star and what be a star, because I find it
recently I've been getting feeling that it's so egregious on

(01:00:40):
how who they think could be a star. You got
to be a muscle bound guy. If you're too short,
you're not a star. And how they treat like minorities
like with the Unity and New Day making them so
such as joke of character and when you look at
them as a joke and stops the bank bent and
to me at the best raffling in the world, not

(01:01:01):
just woman raffling, but best raffling the world. Now you
got her in this comedic at mid car at almost
unity and joking around, and now you look at her
as a joke. One job to say what I thought
about that? And thank you for allowing.

Speaker 1 (01:01:17):
Me to speak, Darrell, Thank you, Thank you, Jason. How
bad was that Raymond roman Reigns promo? Someone on Twitter
just chimed in who I assume as listening to the program,
and said, James Caldwell called it best in one word,
he called it wretched.

Speaker 5 (01:01:35):
Yeah, that sums it up. It was just it was terrible.
The whole thing was bad. It just it kept knowing it.
Now he's gonna throw the chair at him, then he's
gonna it. Just that it was a bad, bad segment
that wouldn't end. And as I said earlier, by the
time it was done, I had no interest in seeing
them get physical.

Speaker 1 (01:01:53):
Yeah, it was bad. Darrell and his comments on New
Day and Sasha Banks, I think you know vincc manho say, well,
we just don't have you know the talent depth right now?
You know, I'm I'm I'm in a tough.

Speaker 5 (01:02:06):
Spe what they want to do. Let's be real here.

Speaker 1 (01:02:09):
Yeah, yeah, well you're right, but there's there's been minorities
who have played into stereotypes because they felt that that
was their best way to advance, not rock the boat,
make money for their family, and they've demeaned themselves and
played into stereotypes when somebody higher up should have said, no,
we're not in this business. That's we're not going to

(01:02:30):
let you play at this low comedy nominator. I'm not
saying that New Day are Are are at that level.
There's things that they do that are funny, and then
there's right now, I'd say the ratio is much greater
in things that they're doing that are over into that
are that are self indulgent, overwrought, corny to a fault

(01:02:51):
and just takes up too much time and kind of
zany and goofy in a way that I think doesn't
help them become draws. They're just jugglers in between the
main circus acts, and that I think is limiting, especially

(01:03:15):
when you consider that they haven't decided are they the
jugglers who help fill time between the center stage acts
or are they main eventors who they have high hopes
for there's nothing in the commentary about New Day or
virtually nothing that talks about their athleticism and their skills

(01:03:35):
and why you know, you always hear this when there'd
be gimmicks in wrestlings past eras, they would say, well,
he may look like this or act like this or
talk like this, but when you strip all that away,
he can fight and that other stuff, you know, a
little bit of that with gold Dust. You know, this's
just mind games to get his opponent off. But you
know this, he's a good wrestler. And I just don't

(01:03:57):
think you hear that enough with New Day, and it's
hard to take them, sir. But yeah, Sasha Banks is
a good example of underutilized talent, and I think it's
part of where the frustration comes in with the Bellweather fans,
the ones who kind of dictate the tone in response
to wrestlers who are the most vocal and surefooted in
their reaction to things that I think kind of lead
the rest of the fans to either accept or reject

(01:04:19):
certain acts. Right now, I think there's a real frustration
with what they've seen with Sasha Banks and what she's
capable of and the role that she's in now and
how diminutive she seems compared to how larger than LI
she has come across an NXT. If you missed it earlier,
just a reminder, we're running our second VIP sale of
the year. We don't do these often. Take advantage of
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(01:04:40):
dollars off a VIP subscription a one month, three month
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When you check out on our sign up form pw
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(01:05:00):
details on membership benefits and links to our sign up form.

Speaker 5 (01:05:05):
Well yeah, I mean the Davis division is complete mess.
The thing with New Day when New Day debuted that
to me was was was absurd. You know, that was
just awful. They've taken that and they're doing what they want.
And I agree the broadcast team could be singing their
praises more and talking about them being better rested than that.
There's all sorts of issues with them. I don't know

(01:05:27):
that I see it as like some sort of racism.
I did initially. At this point, I just don't the
whole the unity thing. It just it's like nails across
a chalkboard. I don't know who thinks that's clever. I
kind of worried last week the Team Bad was going
to become like the female New Day and that's the

(01:05:47):
last thing anybody needs. They should be doing more with
Sasha and to see them out there together it was
so silly. I mean, one of them is, one of
the Team Bad members is married to the Ussos who
are challenging for the tech titles. And it's not like
this is some pro wrestling secret. They've talked about it
on the air, not just on Total Deeps on WWE television,
and the Ussos are out there in the next segment

(01:06:09):
and nobody cares to ask of it. What did you
think of your wife dancing with the guys that you're
feuding with that you'll be challenging on Sunday. Nothing. You
have to turn your brain off when you watch WWE television.

Speaker 1 (01:06:21):
Now, the number of stupid things, one after another. It
was a parade of stupidity on Raw last night, Bray
Wyatt in the Wya Family. There's so many things wrong
with that segment, and one of them is he's on
USA Network every week. The Wye Family are on USA
Network every week on USA's top rated program or one
of the top rated programs Raw. And he's been there

(01:06:42):
for years, so he's not moving from Sci Fi. The
secretary at USA shouldn't be unfamiliar with him. The whole
stupid premise, the whole funny, little make believe, we don't
take ourselves seriously corporate haha, little stupid, ineffective Prome commercial
that they did doesn't even make sense. They don't have
a brand split. The White Family are not moving from

(01:07:03):
sci Fi and Thursdays to USA Network. They're not moving.
They've been there all along. It makes no sense, and
it destroys the mystique that the White Family probably don't
even have anymore, but that they're participating in this corporate gaga.
We're changing stations. Stupid satirical parody skit, same thing with

(01:07:27):
Russet participating in the first one. We're Hunter and Steph,
We're Simon Cowell and whatever you know, whoever else is
you know, come on into the room, rehears for us.
When we tell you to jump, jump high, when we
tell you to juggle, juggle. It was a window into
the corporate mentality that these are all losers who would
just be working at a gym somewhere if it wasn't

(01:07:48):
for the magnificent Royalty of the McMahons giving them a
chance to be superstars and be part of such a
great corporation that's all about doing charity work and making
the world a better place. So just come in and
an audition for us, tell us your cute little slogans
and ideas, and demean yourself and belittle yourself in front
of us. But then when that's done, oh, by the way,

(01:08:08):
these are the big, badass wrestlers you're supposed to pay
to see fight. You can't do that. It's not cute
and harmless. It's cute and crippling. If you watch wrestling
from the eighties on WWE Network, the NWA World Champiship
Wrestling Show, the wrestlers have a swagger. The wrestlers walk
around like, if you don't pay me enough, I'm gonna

(01:08:31):
go get more money somewhere else because I'm good at
what I do, and you're just assembling people who are
really good at what they do. Yes, you're a facilitator.
You've got the TV cameras and the TV contract, but
without us, you're nothing. In the mentality of everything that
Stephanie McMahon touches on air on RAW and in her
little cute little Twitter tweets is we are the bosses,

(01:08:55):
and the wrestlers are lucky to have jobs, and they
will do what we tell them when we tell them
to do it. There was that that that Raw where
they were Jason in Minneapolis, a Target center where everybody
assembled and on the stage and Triple Ah you know,
talked down to them and demean them and and it
was just it was like, It's like, why why am
I paying gonna pay attention to three hours to these

(01:09:17):
these people who are treated like they're working they're working
at at a pizza shop, being told that they have
to make more pizzas. Uh, they have to make their
pizzas faster and put the toppings on more evenly. They're
they're not treated like superstars that you would idolize them
by merchandise for so that was awful and and I mean,
in a less I don't know. In a different category,

(01:09:37):
we have yet to hear from the anybody but Seamus.
In the League of Nations, why are they there and assembled?
You have the League of Nations, but then you have
del Rio still doing his damn his thing up until
he broke up with him. Uh with with zeb Colter.
You've got Russev still doing his thing with Lana. I mean,
it's like they assembled, but there's no they haven't each

(01:09:59):
been given a chance to talk and establish what they're
all about. And the week after they form is not
the week you put them against their twelve top rivals
in a TV match. You build to that you get
their gimmick over. They should be out there cutting promos
for six weeks before we see them wrestle as a unit.
And I know that's unrealistic because of the greedy stupidity
of having three hours around tours a SmackDown, spreading thin

(01:10:22):
and rushing the tried and true progressing formula of building
anticipation for things. But you have to put you have
to establish their character and have a little foreplay before
you put them out there against all their opponents and
just spend all that equity you have to build up
some sort of mystique in this idea, that there's some
that the whole is greater than the sum of the parts,

(01:10:45):
and that del Rio is motivated and he's not just
put there because Stephanie and Hunter thought it'd be a
fun gimmick for him to do, and he did what
he was told. You have to get There should be
a feeling that these four have unified and they have
a mission and they have a purpose, and it's dangerous
and it's a threat to something that the fans hold near.
And that's how pro wrestling works. And what I have
been saying for the past three minutes doesn't cross one

(01:11:05):
freaking person's mind in vincick Mann and his inner circle.
And they're off course, this is not profound. Every other
wrestling promoter and booker pre Monday Night more Era stumbled
into this obvious knowledge of how to promote. And they've
lost their way, Jason, They've lost their way. And I
could go on for another forty minutes I did last
night on the Waitekeller Hotline for VFP members, one segment

(01:11:27):
after another, the stuff you brought up, in the stuff
I brought up, they just have lost their way.

Speaker 5 (01:11:34):
Clearly, Yeah, there's no sign of this turning around. That's
what's so frightening right now about the WWE product. There's
no indication that they realize this because they're introducing counterproductive
things like the rose Bush. They're having Stardust and Titus
O'Neil do these campy backstage things, and I don't know
what we're supposed to take from those. I don't know

(01:11:56):
why Titus is yelling for Elberto del Rio to watch out.
Don't understand most of what I'm seeing on WWE television
right now. It's there's just too much clowning around.

Speaker 1 (01:12:07):
It's a clown shoot it is.

Speaker 5 (01:12:10):
And normally when they get in these positions where numbers
go down or like I said, Vince's backs against the wall,
he feels that's when things get a little more serious,
you get a little more serious tone to it. We're
not getting that right now.

Speaker 1 (01:12:21):
No, we're not Charles f Emails, he said. It would
seems it's like man is taking a page out of
George George Lucas's book. Roman Reigns is to WWE what
Hayden Christensen was to the Star Wars franchise. Within minutes,
somebody read.

Speaker 5 (01:12:32):
Will Pruitz blog and decided, Yeah, I'm just just saying.

Speaker 1 (01:12:37):
All right, within minutes of either them being on screen
in the sympathetic hero role, it's painfully obvious that it
just isn't going to work. WWE needs an overhaul before
they ruin it with what little appeal is left of
following wrestling. This is that, I mean, that's a potential
plagiarism or great minds think alike us side Jason. The
it is it continues that is not isolated. I'm not

(01:13:01):
having to go through a bunch of emails and tweets
to find people who are this down on things. It's
I've I've seen them Matt at the Daniel Brian push,
I've seen the Mat fans Matt at different things through
through social media and email and and this live cast.
I just haven't seen it this level.

Speaker 8 (01:13:15):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (01:13:16):
Corresponding with a pretty good statistical sampling h that Nielsen
has in terms in terms of the.

Speaker 5 (01:13:22):
Ratings, you know what it is right now?

Speaker 11 (01:13:25):
Is that?

Speaker 5 (01:13:26):
And first off, I'm kidding he may not have seen
Will's block, because.

Speaker 1 (01:13:30):
It might be he might all right, all right, but
you know.

Speaker 5 (01:13:37):
The difference I see now between the fan reaction before
it was I'm never watching WWE again, and you just
roll your eyes, going, yes you will, you'll be calling
in tomorrow. But nowadays, I you know, it's it's not
the same I'm mad because Daniel Bryan didn't win reaction
where it's just kind of somebody needs to vent and

(01:13:58):
get it out of their system, and they're going into extremes.
Now it's people. You could just hear it. They're they're defeated.
You know, they want to continue watching this product. They're
not mad about it. They're not mad about a wrestler
not being pushed the way they want. There's just kind
of no hope and and they so therefore instead of
like they're just quietly going away, those are the I mean,

(01:14:21):
that's what's happening with these viewers viewership numbers. They're quietly
going away.

Speaker 1 (01:14:25):
You hear about relationships and and where there's fights, and
the two people in a relationship they fight a lot.
Things have taken a downturn. That's a sign of trouble,
but there's a sign of hope that things can get better,
and then the next stage is often reached, which is
they don't fight anymore. They just float and exist around
each other, but they don't even have it ement. They've

(01:14:46):
detached themselves emotionally from it, and they're that transition is
going on right now with Yeah, with wrestling fans relationship
with WWE. They used to be angry and vocal about it,
and a lot still are, but a lot of them,
you know, close to a million who we're part of
that core group that would watch raw close to you know,
more than twenty percent, less than twenty five percent. And
you can, you know, you can add the ten to

(01:15:08):
twelve percent of DVR viewers in. And I want to
say that as a caveat, because people are thinking, what
about DVR? What about who? Who plus dvrsnumb? Sure, that's
that's exactly what I'm saying. Yeah, this is not new DVR.
It was ten to twelve percent last years, ten to
twelve percent the year before. It's it's it's not like
people there's just as many fans, but they've learned how
to use the DVR, and they're they're watching a little
bit later because they get to stay up later. No,

(01:15:30):
and so that's not that's not what's happening here. They
are drifting apart. A big percentage of fans are drifting away.
They're not even angry anymore. They have no fight left
in them. They waved the white flag and they moved on.
And as I put on my Twitter at d Wade Keller,
follow me if you aren't, if you're on Twitter, would
invite you to do so, I said, And I said

(01:15:51):
at the top of the show, Vince McMahon and company
are going to stubbornly continue on this path to prove
they are right until they have no viewers left. And
I have seen no indication that they are that they're
going to put their pride aside and and the excuse
of the side, as Derell said, and uh and and
actually just open themselves up to the possibility that they

(01:16:13):
don't have the right approach right now. Anyway, all right,
let's go. You know what, I'll say this real quick.
I mentioned to be Ipy a few times. You can
go b IDs.

Speaker 16 (01:16:29):
Longing for some nostalgia or maybe you want to learn
some wrestling history, don't miss the nineties Past cast Every
Friday on the PW Torch Daily Cast Feed. Alex and
Patrick will transport you thirty years into the past by
taking you through the Torch issue from that very week
follow news from the WWF and WCW and all the

(01:16:49):
happenings from across the wrestling industry in real time as
The Torch reported it thirty years ago. That's the nineties
Pass cast every Friday on the PW Torch Daily Cast Feed.

Speaker 1 (01:17:09):
Also in a mobile friendly, ad free environment, Peter with
you Torch dot Com slash go v ip. Back to
the phone lines three h five up and then seven one,
eight and three two.

Speaker 8 (01:17:19):
Oh.

Speaker 1 (01:17:19):
We'll try to get as many calls as in as
we can in our final minutes here three h five.
Thanks for holding. Please state your name and where you're
calling from.

Speaker 12 (01:17:26):
Hey, guys, it's DJ.

Speaker 8 (01:17:27):
Remind me.

Speaker 4 (01:17:27):
I got two quick questions. My first question is that
I want to look into the future. I mean, it's
like the boat is like the Titanic. It's going to
sink a figure in less than ten years. I mean,
he's getting older and Noway's complaining with Captain you. I mean,
some of you need to say something because the more

(01:17:48):
it goes down, the more viewers he's going to lose.
And I don't know how Stephanie Hunter and Shane gonna,
you know, bring the boat back to life.

Speaker 1 (01:17:58):
That's my first thing, Go ahead with your second thing,
and then we'll answer both.

Speaker 4 (01:18:03):
Okay, My second thing is that I feel like this
Rumman Rings thing is just going down the ladder up
ladder thing. It's just like I know that he's not
gonna win, you know, a TLC, and I feel like,
what's next. I mean, the only thing they can do
is bring Brocken then, I mean that's been there, done that.
I mean, they really need to sit down and they

(01:18:25):
need to get the writers, and the writer need to
say something or put their foot down, because, like I said,
nothing's gonna happen until something major is gonna happen.

Speaker 1 (01:18:36):
DJ thinks the past, the Titanic thinking a Jason at
the Triple H if he sees himself as an heir
apparent and he recognizes what's going on, what's going on wrong,
and I assume to some degree he does. I'm not
saying that he would agree with everything I've said on
the show or see all the faults that I see
item for item on the checklist exactly like I do,

(01:18:57):
and like you do and our callers do. Maybe there's
some things he things are that are fundamentally necessary for
twenty fifteen pro wrestling that you and I would vehemently disagree,
But I based on the team he assembled an NXT
in the way that he promotes that product, I think
he's would do things differently, and I think he also
has the objectivity to step back and look at what's

(01:19:17):
going wrong now and at least not do all the
same things wrong and try something different. So it's got
to be tough for Triple H if he's the air
parent to be watching this. And then you have the
awkwardness of being married to the daughter who adores her
father who's you know, driving this ship into the iceberg.
You know, Triple H doesn't want the ship so damaged
it can't float anymore by the time he gets control.

(01:19:39):
If that is the way that the power, the power
structure moves.

Speaker 5 (01:19:43):
That's the thing I mean, are we getting to that point?
Because we get the call on a regular basis just
that kind of a repeated thing. When is Triple H
is going to say something or why you know, why
don't people say something? Have we And usually the answer,
waight is that well, would you? I mean, you're got
to rock that boat when get a you stand up
profit tremendously. But have we gone so low where he

(01:20:07):
needs to say something because his his long term future
is kind of at stake based on what Vince McMahon
is doing to this company and.

Speaker 1 (01:20:14):
Some of the other employees who are just looking at
this going in a year, there's not I mean that
was a problem with WCW. I mean we brought up
the WCW the final couple of years of WW, and
there were people who just thought, I'm not going to
rock the boat. I'm going to keep my job. And
had they rocked the boat, they might still have a job,
but they were out of work in a couple a

(01:20:35):
couple of years later or six months later because too
many smart people did nothing and said nothing and tried
to protect their little spot and didn't want to be
the ones to deliver, you know, truth to power, the
bad news to the authority, the people who were in
charge making bad decisions, and it cost WW. It's fairy existence.
So yeah, I don't know, I don't know what to say,

(01:20:57):
and I mean it is it's it's frustrating, Jason, any
anything else you want to add to what DJ said.
I want to try to get to a couple other
calls here.

Speaker 5 (01:21:02):
I go for it.

Speaker 1 (01:21:04):
Okay, let's, uh, you know, what did I just do
to the switchboard here?

Speaker 5 (01:21:11):
Hang on, while you're looking, I will just say Shane
McMahon has no input. I know you mentioned Shane at
one point.

Speaker 2 (01:21:16):
Oh good.

Speaker 5 (01:21:16):
Yeah, yeah, so I just want to sneak that in
appreciate it.

Speaker 1 (01:21:19):
Yeah, okay, let's go to seven eight, next, seven eight,
steak your name in the city you're calling.

Speaker 8 (01:21:23):
From, Michael Brooklyn, How you going away? How you Jason?
How you Fellars going tonight?

Speaker 1 (01:21:28):
Doing well? It always feels to vent with with our
live cast community of listeners. I it's it's it's nice
to uh to not only get my point of view
out there and hear Jason's and and uh give callers
a chance to express their frustration too. So in that sense,
it's good. I would feel I'd feel more frustrated if
I was just had watched RAW and watched the last
few weeks of RAW, last few months a RAW, and

(01:21:50):
I had to sit there and stew in my own
thoughts and not be able to share them and invent
with with like somewhat like minded people or very like
minded people.

Speaker 8 (01:21:57):
We don't all agree on everything absolutely, but we all
can agree on that train wreck atrocity of a main
event go Home, you know, segment for pay per food. Yes,
And like you said, you saw the look in his eye.
He like, what am I like? The look in his
eye was like, what am I doing?

Speaker 1 (01:22:15):
Ahead? Yeap?

Speaker 8 (01:22:17):
What am I doing? Head like I'm a beating man.
He just they had the you know, Apple Polton the Ternament,
which was survival series. They could have flipped them there.
You know what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (01:22:29):
I'll tell you what, Mike, Mike, I'll tell you what
I think. A year ago, Roman to Raids thought by
now he'd be earning three million a year in salary
and two to three million a year in merchandise, and
he'd be on his way to five to eight year
run as a top star in a company that was
growing and expanding new TV deal and that he was
going to be head of the Torch and he would

(01:22:50):
do what he was told to do and he would
get rich doing it. And I think he was looking
at tax shelters for twenty thirty million dollars that he
had have in a few years from now and now.
Instead he's looking at humiliation and rejection and a fraction
of that pay with a possibility that he will not have,

(01:23:15):
that he'll never hit a two million dollar income mark,
and that the WrestleMania Maine event may not come around again.
I mean, they could even get worse for him than
just that scenario. I mean, I really, I really think
we saw that. I think it was White knuckling his
way through that interview Jason last night. I think he
knew he was dying out there. I mean it almost

(01:23:37):
got to the point where you got you felt sad
for him. I think it got so uncomfortable out there.

Speaker 5 (01:23:43):
How did how could they give them that much dialogue?
I mean, it's not like the show was running short.
It was an overrun that ran over the usual overrun time.
I mean, it just went on forever.

Speaker 1 (01:23:52):
I thought it almost felt like it was some sort
of test to humble Roman Reigns. It's like putting some
rookie or some free agent pick up in in basketball
or hockey or you know, I guess basketball is best analogy,
and leaving him on the court during a blowout just
to humiliate him because he can't guard his opponent, and
you want to teach him how much he can't guard

(01:24:12):
the superstar opponent as a way to humble him. To
get him to work a little harder and and uh
and be a little more humble literally, And I mean
it almost seemed like they were trying to teach Roman
Range a lesson. But I but I, but I also
think that's not necessarily the attitude with Roman. I don't
think that finsook Man thinks Roman's letting him down. I
don't think Roman is a whipped puppy dog backstage. I

(01:24:33):
think that it's it's a different type of demeanor that
that that Roman was expressing there.

Speaker 5 (01:24:42):
Well, it's I mean, even if that's the idea, even
if that were happening, it's not the time, you know it,
don't do that on the go home edition of raw
A dressed the guy down backstage if you have to,
I mean, if that's the only way to get through him,
if that's what's actually happening, but I know you're not
saying it is, but geez, I mean, just to send
them out there for that long. It's Roman, Rands and Shamus,
They're they're not gifted talker. Shamus does okay when he

(01:25:05):
gets to be himself, but that it just that was
just so it's just way too much dialogue, so bad.

Speaker 1 (01:25:12):
I totally agree. I Mic, real quick your second second
point of.

Speaker 8 (01:25:15):
Questions, Oh yeah, you know, just to add on to
what you were saying as well, like the classic stuff.
That's when I'm pretty much pretty much watching Mid South.
You know, the A W A when the Rockets came
back as Hills and they had the c W A
A w A titles, And also with those silly commercials,

(01:25:35):
there's these movie settings. They can't they managed to kill
the Wise family and in that Seales swoop they may missed.
I just get paid, you know. I just listened to
them and hope they get rich. They made him seem
even more stupid by putting a car can't even put
together a carball Fox like And the last thing I
had does anybody wear clothes street clothes anymore? Why is

(01:25:58):
all the superstars moving there rapidly?

Speaker 1 (01:26:00):
Get on? Thank you for including that at the end,
Mike always go to do it from you. Yeah, I
mean there's so much juice from one last night showed
Jason having Roman sit there and struggle to put a
box together and then just show frustration and tear it up.
I mean, that's that That's something that you put George
the animal steel in charge of when he was a lovable,
cuddly baby face after his heel run was over and
you wanted to make fun of his low iq. I mean,

(01:26:24):
Roman is not getting good advice. He's not being protected.
He's like you just said, Jason, he's being put out
there and and in bad situations that is that are
making his shortcomings stand out even more. It's it's uh,
it's rough, all right, Eric, go three one three, you're
up next, state your name and where.

Speaker 9 (01:26:42):
You're calling for please, Hey, this is way from the truth.

Speaker 1 (01:26:46):
Hey, Wayne, thanks, what have you got for us?

Speaker 6 (01:26:48):
Yeah, you guys kind of stole my thunder, but I
still want to mention it. You know, I like the
idea of the whys, I like the gimmick and everything,
but I just haven't totally bought because I don't really
believe bray Wyatt and what he does in terms of
the speaking and even the point of the faction, and

(01:27:09):
putting him in that commercial just solidifies, you know, my
whole feeling about everything, because you know, in terms of
character nuanced, why would he why would they even agree
to do that commercial? Why would they a faction like
that have merchandise and things like that It's like I
think WWE gets in the way of building the characters

(01:27:31):
to what they want to be because of this whole
corporate structure. And then the last thing, I don't know
what del Rio's motivation was for coming back to w
W e Berth, you know, outside of collecting a check,
but it just seems like that's all he's doing. He's
just collecting a check. Like when he's standing out there,
he seems disinterested.

Speaker 1 (01:27:51):
I'm with you. I feel the same way, thanks, Wayne.
I feel that Jason del Riel's just meant nothing. I
mean either way, he's been presented. Whatever steam he might
have had as a returning star with some equity has gone.

Speaker 5 (01:28:04):
He beat John Cena this first night back in a
major surprise. People were thrilled, they loved it, they were excited,
well until the finish, which was just kind of anti climatic, like, really,
that's the finish, and then mechs America happened, and I'm happy.
Mechs America appears to be over, assuming that's not some
goofy swerve that they're going to do on Sunday. I
think it's over because now he's with the League of Nations.

(01:28:28):
I don't know what they're thinking. This guy has proven
everywhere he's gone other than WWE, that he can get
over when he gets to be himself. I don't know
what his character is. Before you know, the whole rich
guy thing had played itself out and run its course
and was more of a hindrance than anything once he
turned babyface, so that you get to bring him back
and kind of start fresh. And there's just a guy

(01:28:48):
who hung out with zeb Culter and talked about this
fictional country.

Speaker 1 (01:28:52):
This idea that everybody needs a character is so untrue.
The character gets in the way of the personality of
these wrestlers coming coming across and connecting with viewers. I mean,
del Rio doesn't need mechs America. Del Rio is at
his best a great movie villain who can with his

(01:29:19):
body language and his is he just oozes of arrogance
and intimidation. And I mean, and he can play the
other flip side too. But I mean they want him.
They wanted him as a heel and just strip away
all the gimmicks and have him be the guy who
looks like he would look you in the eye and
without blinking kill one of your children or your dog,

(01:29:41):
just to scare you like there's there's a look of
intimidation and a believability that doesn't need some mechs america
silly thing painted on top. Play into the idea that
this guy just carries himself like a lot of longtime
badass heels over the years have, which is they're believable

(01:30:02):
that they would not hesitate to hurt you or a
loved one if they had something to gain. That's his character.
And then as long as you have the foundation of
the matches count and the titles count, and he's here
to take money and main events away from babyfaces, from heroes,
from that that fans are rooting for, that's all it takes.
They just make it so much more complicated than it

(01:30:23):
has to be, and they end up creating a veneer
that that creates a disconnect between the who, the the
real personalities that these people bring to to the promotion,
and the fans, and it just ends up dumbing down
the product into the sterile, two dimensional, one dimensional world
that just sells short the vast array of of really

(01:30:45):
interesting people. People are interesting. They don't need a character
and an outfit to be interesting. If you drive, if
they have talent and speaking ability. If they have well
that's what I'm saying. If they have talent uh and
speaking ability uh and and charis if you drop them
into the promising formula, they don't need some tangible character
of being a hockey player, goon or a mechs America advocate.

(01:31:10):
You know that that stuff all just gets in the way.
If you missed it earlier, just a reminder, we're running
our second VIP sale of the year. We don't do
these often. Take advantage of it now. It is a
limited time offer. Take nine dollars off a VIP subscription
a one month, three month or one year sub It
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(01:31:34):
twenty five, and that takes nine dollars off. When you
check out on our sign up form pw torch dot
com slash go VIP give you full details on membership
benefits and links to our sign up form. All right,
four oh two, you're up. Please state to name it
where you're calling from. Oh, I can't hear it all,

(01:31:54):
so can you get a better connection for sure.

Speaker 3 (01:31:58):
Oh sorry, Tony and Omaha.

Speaker 1 (01:32:00):
Oh hey Tony and Oma, what have you got for us?

Speaker 3 (01:32:03):
Well, just calling because the show I think it's not
you know, fun anymore.

Speaker 1 (01:32:11):
It's an it's not fun to They are wearing comments
on their.

Speaker 8 (01:32:16):
Heads, which is awesome and started us to.

Speaker 1 (01:32:20):
Titus are in an alternate galaxy. How can that not
be fun? For you? Explain yourself all about.

Speaker 3 (01:32:26):
Fun clearly, I mean fun for him is not fun
for the autience. I mean he's basically eroded the audience
to like the hardest of the hardcore fans. Like I
have friends who are Frings wrestling fans, and you know
they might you know, had previously wanted to see like
you know, Zach Ryder d Wacky or you know, they

(01:32:48):
would you know, come in for like Fantino. You know,
there's just a fun character. But there's no fun on
the show, like whatsoever. And every time, you know, something
kind of fun gets over, they squashed it, or they
they mangle it like they've done with the New Day
and or they you know, like the New Day they

(01:33:08):
use it to get everyone else over. And so it
was just letting them, you know, be this fun thing
that you know French fan, can you know kind of
call it, you know, watch the show for But another
thing is I think Roman Reigns is that guy that
Kevin Nash has always talked about the guy and needs
you know, five to ten years to get that seasoning,

(01:33:31):
to get that timing, to get you know, a good
working ability, to get good instincts. He's that guy, like
he's the blueprint of that guy, Tony.

Speaker 1 (01:33:44):
I think I think we lost you there, but good point.
Roman Reigns. Yes, I think Jason needed more seasoning and
I think he needed to not be scripted from the beginning.
You can't just you know, JV always talks about, you know,
if you created a mold of a sports entertainer and
be Randy Orton, and it's like if you created a
mold of Vincent Man's vision for you know, a great
future star. Roman rains Is is definitely in that, in

(01:34:05):
that realm, but he's never had a chance to go
do his own thing and figure out what his voice
was going to be other than you know that that
where he was at his best, which was a run
a NXT cutting amazing, I think, amazing, really effective heel
promos and I think there's amazing potential for him as
a heel, but he's in an overly scripted, structured environment,

(01:34:26):
and I think the product has hurt him more than
he has hurt himself. That said, he has not been uh,
He's been his own worst enemy in ways. I mean,
the stories that I have heard off record are are
such where you would go, all right, there's there's some
attitude and entitlement issues that are holding.

Speaker 2 (01:34:43):
Him back.

Speaker 1 (01:34:45):
And and and that that I think is it makes
itself apparent on television. But I would say that he's
been more let down by the company than he's let
down the company.

Speaker 5 (01:34:53):
Jason Well, and they've tried to protect him from day one.
You know that the shield he was protected, he starts
to stray away from the sh you know they protect it.
It's just I don't know what they do with them
on the house shows. There's really any different either. I'm
guessing he has some longer matches, but I think it
ends there. I don't know why he's not. You know,
one of the fun things that Steve Austin used to

(01:35:15):
do at the end, and not just him, but Rock
and all those guys after the show went off the air,
have some fun back and forth and entertain the crowd.
I don't know why we're not getting that with Roman
range Let them it's the end of a house show.
Even let him go out there and just kind of
find himself. I don't know why they don't take that opportunity. Instead,
it's just work your match and shake a few hands

(01:35:36):
and go backstage.

Speaker 1 (01:35:37):
But that's that's what I worry about with Roman Jason,
and you got to the heart of it is, I
don't know that that's in him. I don't know that
he wants to mingle with the commoners. I don't know
that he doesn't feel he's above that. I think he
wants to show up, do what he's told, collect his paycheck,
and get rich. I just don't know that he I mean,
I don't know the answer to this, but he has
there's not evidence to the contrary. I don't think he

(01:35:58):
wants to mingle with themes. I think he sees himself
as something above the ticket buying public. And to a degree,
you have to think you're very skilled at what you
do and that people would want to pay to see you.
You have to have that. If you don't, people are
going to sense that and not and not follow you.
But at the same time this idea that you know,
when Roman said, well, I like coming through the crowd

(01:36:20):
because people get to be up close, they can smell me.
It's it's it's a window into And I don't say
that to like beat him up or or or to
pick on him, but I say it analytically as a
window into who he is as a person. I think
that he thinks people get it, and I use, you know,
sort of figure speech a I'm you know that they
get they get close enough to me to smell me,

(01:36:41):
so I feel more accessible. And it's like Mickey James
said on the on the Wednesday Live cast with Pat
McNeil last month, we're too accessible. We've become too accessible
to wrestling fans that that distance, that sense of us
being stars above them isn't there. But at the same time,
you want to seem you want to seem like a
superstar who doesn't look down at the fans for not

(01:37:02):
being on the stage. And I don't know that Roman
has that in him, because I don't know that he
feels that way. And that's why I think he's a
better heel. Not everybody was born to be a babyface.
Some people just are born to be a heel, and
I think he's one of them. And he hair right, Yes,
he's handsome. I mean, let the girls have, you know,

(01:37:22):
conflicted feelings about him. Well, if I just got my
hands on him, he wouldn't have such a bad attitude.
And that's such an ego. I'd change him. I mean, fine,
let them think that. But some people were born to
be heels and he and Roman Roman seems like the
guy who would be a dick to the waitress. That's
who he is. He's the guy who would walk into
a gym and be offended if somebody needed to see

(01:37:45):
his ID card, the membership card because I'm fin Roman raids.
That's the vibe he gives off and I don't think
he can escape it. He's had a year or so
to do it. I don't think he can escape the
idea that he's the guy who makes the the the
housekeeper at the hotel feel like a sub human being

(01:38:05):
because you didn't do something to his liking, to his standards.
That the vibe that he gives off as as a
potential heel, there's money in that. That's the character he
played in NXT that's a character that uh that that
I think has the most money potential, and Baron Corbin
is playing a similar role in NXT. It's there for

(01:38:26):
the taking. If if, if it's mcmatt is willing, is
willing to shift and steer in that direction because it's there.
It's not a lot of hard work to get to that.
If you're if you see Roman arrange, it's not hard
to get there. Maybe there's something else there, Jason, Yeah,
mingling with a mingling with the crowd and interacting with
them and kind of loosening up a little bit. I know,
maybe there's something there, but I just that's been tested

(01:38:47):
and I haven't seen enough progress to be confident. What
you're right, It would hurt.

Speaker 5 (01:38:52):
One of the he said in one of those interviews
that was scrutinized for good reason, was said, he feels
like he's you know, the internet crowd whatever you want
to label them, or bullying him. That's a talent comment
to me, because that you shouldn't feel that way. You
should be doing what he does for a living. You
should stop and go, Okay, I need to listen. What

(01:39:15):
is it these people don't like about me? How can
I connect with these people. If you are going to
be the big baby face of that company, find ways,
whether it's pandering two crowds like John Cena does. And
it's not just that Scene has done a nice job
of winning some people over over the years. Scene has
made that effort. You know, he's the guy who to
takes prior and Iguan chure Boo, do what you want

(01:39:36):
as long as you buy a ticket, that kind of thing.
But seene It does make an effort where rains It
just considers himself a victim. He's not trying to win
that person over. He just thinks they're out to get
him and screw them.

Speaker 1 (01:39:47):
Yeah. Yeah, when Roman played the victim card and then
talked about how he's a thousand times better than he
was earlier in the year and if you don't see that,
you're a fool or whatever. I'm paraphrasing slightly. But the
inflection or the the intent is is conveyed there. Yeah,
it's it's Uh. There's just been enough indications on record
and off record in the way in stories that I've

(01:40:10):
heard and about Roman that just I don't have confidence
that he'll ever convincingly come across as as as a likable, engaging,
connected to the crowd. Babyface, I saw Hogan had it,
John Cena has it, Steve Austin has it, like Sugar didn't,
you know. I mean, it's just some people don't have it,

(01:40:31):
and and I just, you know, there's I get, I
get the I get the temptation and the infatuation that
man has and wanting to form him into something and
be the next big star. I just and it didn't
help either. I talk about it all the time. Sempunk
and that podcast that he did with Cocbana was heard
by I'm convinced more than a million wrestling fans because
I mean hundreds of thousands of people, uh here every

(01:40:53):
everyday podcast from the top podcast on iTunes. I think
we're number eight right now. I'm pros and podcasts with
Jericho and Ross and Austin and you know in that
top eight with us and that Cumpunk Cabana podcast is
the most heard wrestling podcast I've bet in the last
two years or ever probably, I mean, what am I
saying the last two years? Of course it's the biggest then,

(01:41:16):
and he said a year ago on Thanksgiving weekend, I
was told make Roman reigns look good and that wasn't
That was a podcast that the beloved CM Punk gave
after he was gone from the company, and fans felt
like I'd take the Umpunk over Roman Reigns, and I
think that hurt Roman Reigns. I think that got the momentum,

(01:41:36):
the negative momentum going on the Roman Reigns in a
way that shouldn't be underestimated. I think a lot of
people who were WWE fans because of CM Punk primarily
looked at it, looked at Roman Reigns as a guy
that VisiC Man chose over a guy they liked better,
and they felt Punk's frustration. And I think that's worked
against Roman Reigns ever since too. I mean, there's so
many things working against Roman, some his faults, some not,

(01:41:58):
and I just don't know that it can be overcome.
And last night just continued Jason to add evidence that
I just don't see a turnaround between now in Mania
that that can work. And I don't see It'd be
one thing if every couple of weeks we saw them
trying something new, you know, and we saw some progress,
but nothing seems to be getting any traction with him.

Speaker 5 (01:42:17):
We've almost reached that point now where if you want
Rains to turn heel, I think you're in a weird way.
Your biggest hope should be that John Cena comes back
and wins the championship right away, and that's what they're
waiting for. You know, that will trigger Rains to be like,
wait a minute, you know he was so close to
beating Seamus at TLC, he had the title briefly, and
then he joins the authority, you know, or the other thing.

(01:42:39):
The only other thing I could really think of is
many a time he bases Brocklezenard in the rematch, which
I do believe is still happening. That's not based on
inside info as much as just my gut feeling on that.
And Hayman joins Roman Rains, they I mean, they should
have Hamon around on a regular basis anyway, and that's
one way to do it. And you know they basically

(01:43:00):
Hayman turns, Rains turns, and brock Lesner is out for
revenge the next time he comes back. I think those
are the scenarios you wait for if you want to
see Roman Range turn heel.

Speaker 1 (01:43:10):
There would be so much money and so many more
eyeballs watching RAW. If Hayman and Rains were on every
week in some form not being overexposed, and Hayman was
working with Rains the way that Hayman, you know, worked
with different people over the years, some of the best
promos and most success. So many people had just incredible
we'd talk about this. Rhino would give credit, Rob Van

(01:43:31):
Dam the public Enemy. I mean, so many people were
worked on in Sting going back to Paul Haman working
with Staying getting some of the Stings' best promos in
the early nineties. Hayman can look at somebody watch him
and go all right, here's how we need to frame you,
here's how we need to present you, and whether he's
on camera with him or not, get the best out
of him. It's like Jake Roberts told me on the
live cast that Bob Orton Junior told him, Oh, I

(01:43:53):
wish you know you near Bob Borton's voice, gravity voice
if talking to Jake with his gravity voice going, if
you only had five ten minute it's for an hour
with my son, Bob Morton Junior told Jake, But you
could you could get him to that next level, you know,
because Bob sees that Randy's at a certain level and
isn't past it, and Jake would be able to get
him there. And I look at Roman Rains and I
think Paul Hayman, if Roman Reins could would actually appreciate

(01:44:16):
and listen to Paul Hayman and recognize his genius and
not see him as some you know, non athlete twit
who who who's heard all these bad things about and
and separate all that and go, here's somebody who can
make me more successful. I need to listen to him.
If he could do that, I would be gold. It'd
be gold. And you know, there'd be a lot of
other things to fix, including the whole tone and narrative

(01:44:37):
structure of WWE and the stupidity of those USA Network skits,
the condescending, but I guess they're more patronizing, just pat
wrestling fans on their head for this zany cute little
thing that they like to watch, And we're going to
take these circus wrestlers and put him in an environment
that just completely undercuts any credibility that they have with
the fan base. I mean that all that stuff has
to go, you know, heal authority figures has to go.

(01:44:58):
There's there's a list of twenty five things that have
to change for Roman Reigns to have a chance, even
with Paul Hayman, to really work. But that's one thing
I think Jason, that would let's take one or two
more calls. I feel bad with so many people on hold,
and I'm trying to get to so many calls. I
want to hear from so many different voices, and like
I said, just kind of bent together. So we'll take
a couple more calls and then we'll wrap up and
do a VIP after show hitting on some emails. So

(01:45:19):
if we don't get to you, you can email right
now PW Torchlivecast at gmail dot com and we can
try to address your topic or question in the VIP
after show, which will be available for pw Torch VIP
members and also dot net members later tonight. You don't

(01:45:39):
have to wait for the way Keller Pro Wrestling post
show to find out what I thought of Monday Night
Raw and SmackDown. Each week, you can check out my
reports that are updated live throughout Raw and SmackDown at
pwtorch dot com. My written report will tell you what's
happening in detail in case you missed the show and
it'll also analyze key segments and give my random thoughts
end quips on what I am watching as it airs.

(01:46:02):
So check it out every Monday night and Tuesday night
at pw torch dot com. That also applies to WWE
pay perviews. I cover those live at pw torch dot
com with a detailed written report with star ratings, and
of course you can find other TV reports from other
contributors to pw torch such as NXT, ro, OH, Impact
Wrestling and more. Check it out pw torch dot com

(01:46:22):
your first stop for TV.

Speaker 2 (01:46:24):
And pay per view written reports.

Speaker 1 (01:46:35):
But up next five O two and we'll put two
eight one on deck. But stay stand hold everybody else,
just in case five O two states your name of
the city you're calling from.

Speaker 9 (01:46:44):
This is James from Louisville.

Speaker 1 (01:46:46):
Hey, James, thanks for colin. What's on your mind today?

Speaker 11 (01:46:50):
So?

Speaker 9 (01:46:50):
I know you were talking about a couple minutes ago
about how every no one needs Some people just don't
need a character and I can't help, but like just
thinking about n XT and just thinking about Apollo Cruz
in general, because and I don't know if it seems

(01:47:12):
to be that he is that nice guy who will
do his hardest to win. But I mean he's just
gonna He's gonna do his hardest to win, but he's
not gonna he's not gonna cheat, He's not gonna do
anything like that. And it's a simple gimmick, but it's
so believable and whenever you see him, you just imagine
that that's him. And if it is a character and

(01:47:35):
he's in real life, he's just an awful person. I mean,
he deserves as a Slammy Award for best performance in
the entire WWE. I mean, like he's got he just
has that I don't know, charisma. I guess that you
see with Daniel Bryan or Czarro and I don't. I
feel like it's what's lacking mostly in WWE. And because

(01:47:59):
like Roman Reigns, he doesn't have any of that charisma
in terms of being a baby face, Like he's a
great heel. But if they are so set and determining
that this guy's going to be a baby face, this
guy's going to be a heeled, then it's just not
gonna work. I was just wondering, where do you see
Apollo Cruz going And also do you think that and

(01:48:24):
I'm not sure if it's true or not, But would
it be better if the people themselves, Like if Roman
Reigns was the one that chose I'm gonna be a babyfacer,
I'm gonna be a heel, and then they just ran
with that.

Speaker 1 (01:48:41):
You're saying, would it be better for Roman Reigns to
choose I mean, what if he wants to be a
baby face because of merchandise and he is running with it?

Speaker 9 (01:48:49):
Well, yeah, that's mean. I mean like they should like
offer some advice. But Roman Reigns obviously, well, it appears
anyway that he just doesn't like playing that character he wants.
He just wants to be himself, and himself is not
a night It appears anyway that he's just like not

(01:49:12):
a down to earth guy. He's just kind of that
person that you were talking about.

Speaker 1 (01:49:17):
Yeah, oh, good points, James. I'm glad I took your call.
Jason I I and I'll say, I don't know if
James from Louisville's a VIP member. But the November twenty
eighth Waight Killer Hotline, I did a long answered a
long question on Apollo Cruise and because somebody called me
out and said, you know, you're talking about these NXT
stars who could be called up and make a difference

(01:49:39):
and maybe via top baby face in the company down
the line, you know, talking about Finn Balor and Sammy's
Ain and and that kind of thing. Is why aren't
you bringing up Apollo Cruse? And he made a really
good case and his email question to the to the
VIP asked the editor email and I went into it,
and I think Apollo Cruise, I haven't seen enough to
be convinced, but I've seen enough to be really intrigued
with his upside. Jason, I think Apollo Cruise as a

(01:50:01):
down to earth likable uh tapping into what I think
Drew Galloway, Drew h. Drew does a really good job
of this the forward. Drew McIntyre does a really good
job of this in TNA of being the guy, the
wrestler who loves wrestling as much as the wrestlings fans do.
And I don't think everybody can be that. And I
think with drewid borders on sappy or or modlin sometimes,

(01:50:22):
but I think he is. But I don't think he
crosses the line. I mean he walks right, he walks
it well. I mean I'm not in any way take it.
I'm saying he comes close, but he doesn't. And I
think wrestling needs that. And I think in WWE, and
you get this too, I don't like him with Triple
H in the in the conference calls fran xt like
talks about wrestling nerds, you know, And I know it's
just so it's a throwaway comment. I'm just it's you know,

(01:50:43):
it's jocular locker room humor. It's like snaping a twel
at somebody. We're all friends. But I don't think it's
helpful in the dynamic of wrestling behind the scenes to
act like that, to be really in to a wrestler's
win loss record, or to be really into how many
title reins he has or how long he's held the

(01:51:05):
belt or or and that kind of thing. That you're
being a wrestling nerd to care about that. And and
I think it's it's I think language. I say this
on the show, language counts and I and I don't
like when tri bleahe says that, because I think it's it.
He is a leader, and he sets the tone, and
it sets the tone that that kind of reverberates. I
think to everybody going, you're you're a you're a superstar
quote unquote because we make you one, but you you're

(01:51:29):
a performer. Don't get too nerdy on us, you know,
don't don't put the day title.

Speaker 5 (01:51:34):
Yeah your title tattooed on your neck.

Speaker 1 (01:51:36):
I was going exactly there. Yup, Jason, you got it.
You do it where they gonna like, don't do that,
don't be a wrestling nerd. And Apollo Cruz can be
that character, that wrestling nerd, and that those the vignettes
he did building up his match late on NXT I,
probably three weeks ago. Now, it was just spectacular, the

(01:51:56):
finveller match, and and the way he talked about is
being his dream and he's so and go ahead and
talk about how happy are to be in WWWE, but
don't do it because you're so happy to be graced
by the presence of the McMahon royalty and the great
Stephanie McMahon and Triple Ah. Talk about it because the
WWE's part of something greater. It's the leading brand in
pro wrestling, and as Drew Galloway says with that inimitable accent,

(01:52:20):
at least for me, you know, it's pro wrestling is
my life. It is my family, and Apollo Cruse gives
off that vibe. So what I'm leading to here is
I could see WrestleMania thirty three anack. You could even
rush it. I mean you could if you really wanted
to blow things up. You could have Apollo Cruse come in.
And I talked about this on the November twenty Keller
Hotline in more detail for VFP members. Have him win

(01:52:41):
the World Rumble as a surprise, Oh my god, I
didn't see that coming. Win and have Roman reiins as
the reigning champion, and have Paul Hayman manage him, and
have Apollo Cruise against Roman rains headline in Dallas, because
you're going to be a huge crowd in Dallas, because
WrestleMania has a great cachet right now and people want
to be there. Whatever that crowd is, it's going to
be fifty thousand plus almost. Obviously, in any crowd like

(01:53:01):
that now it's a big stadium, fifty thousand would look
bad because it'd be half full. But they're gonna get
one hundred thousand people one way or the other in
that building or thereabouts. It's gonna look spectacular. It's gonna
look like whoever's headlining are major stars, and so they
should pick somebody to be in that last match who's
young and has a great upside and get a rub
from the WrestleMania brand and do what Seampunk wanted done
and was complaining I wasn't being done, which is used

(01:53:24):
the Wresumena brand to get somebody new over. So draw
the crowd with the stars, but use the crowd to
make new stars. And I do believe I've seen enough
of Apollo Cruise. I'd be only to gamble right now
given the state of things on him being my new
lead babyface. I choose out of a Roman range right now,
and I choose Roman rangys of Paul Hayman as manager
against a Polo Cruz headlining this year's WrestleMania or Summer

(01:53:46):
Slammer the next WrestleMania after it. I think there's a
real potential there, and I think that's casting people correctly, Jason.

Speaker 5 (01:53:51):
I do as why I think there's a lot to
like about Apaulo Cruz is a problem I have right
now with anybody being called up from the NXT rosters
that they run into Vince McMahon booking, And I mean,
we can make a strong case for a cruise Ben
balor Samoa Joe. But if Vince is still booking the
way he is, and you have to have this even

(01:54:11):
Stephens start crap that he's done with Tyler Breeze and others,
you know, I mean, if the booking is proper, Yes, yeah,
paul A cruise can be a real difference maker in
w W.

Speaker 1 (01:54:20):
A the or get Sasha Banks. He can be Sa
Banks and.

Speaker 5 (01:54:27):
Charlotte died. Is that a word?

Speaker 1 (01:54:29):
Well, Charlotte's probably not a better course right now with
her heel Forsona, but I would say that the uh,
you know, you can have Apollo Cruse joining New Day
and wearing a condom on his head with a headband
or something too. So yeah, all right, two eight one,
we'll potentially wrap up the show with you here. Go
ahead and speak your name and where you call it from.

Speaker 17 (01:54:49):
The IP member Jay out of Houston.

Speaker 1 (01:54:52):
Jay, thanks for calling. What have you got for us?

Speaker 17 (01:54:55):
Well, it's funny you should mention this CM Punk podcast.
I was listening to a earlier today, and you really
hit the nail on the head because Punk did talk
about how everybody kept coming up to him and saying, hey,
you're going over the shield, but you gotta make Roman
look strong. You got to make Roman look good. And
that that was just.

Speaker 1 (01:55:16):
Jay. You there, eyes on old for half hour and
then he drives out of range. Suddenly, Jay, give me
a chance to come back. Here they go ahead.

Speaker 17 (01:55:27):
Oh okay, I'm sorry about that. I was saying. I
was listening to the CM Punk podcast earlier today and
he talked about how everyone kept telling him to make
Roman Reigns in particular look strong as compared to the
rest of the Shield, and uh so you really had
a point there. I also saw a clip of Roman

(01:55:48):
Reigns kind of debunking the fact that seam Punk came
up with the shield, and you know, he was kind
of dismissive of Punk. So I, as a fan, you know,
we do kind of pick up on those sorts of things,
and I think that that really is hurting him. It
really is hurting him. Another thing you had mentioned, another
drum you have been beating for the last couple of weeks,

(01:56:10):
is that WWE is presenting instead of promoting. Because a
lot of matches that I might see on RAW, you know,
I'll just kind of skip over them because it doesn't
feel right to see a certain match without the right
context around it, you know, when you know no one's
really moving up or down, there's no real journey that
anyone's on. That's kind of one of the things that's

(01:56:32):
kind of keeping me from watching RAW a lot. It
seems there's no Jay.

Speaker 1 (01:56:36):
Jay, you're making a good point, but Jay, hold on,
you're making a good point. But I didn't hear you
mentioned Kim Kardashian in that, so I really, my my
ears are just kind of not hearing what you're saying.
Can you please Jay pop culture references, because if you
don't do that, I mean, really, how are you going
to connect with with our audience if if there's not
some reference to Tyra Banks in there too? Can you

(01:56:59):
please maybe do that for me so that maybe my
ears perk up and I hear what you're saying better.

Speaker 17 (01:57:05):
I definitely understand what you're saying, but you know, I
definitely want to see it as a as a as
a sports like like competition like n x T. That's
the one thing that keeps me watching NXC. It feels
like an actual sport, and I don't I'm not a
sports guy, Like I don't watch basketball or football, But
with NXC, it seems like every match matters, like if

(01:57:28):
you win, if you go up, if you lose, you
go down. That's what kind of has me intrigued with NXC.
And that's that's all.

Speaker 1 (01:57:35):
I like to see with wraw Jay good color to
end on And I agree with what you said, and
I think you know, that's the complication, the needless complication
of this uh that that WW creates with and they're
they're they're always trying to it's just kimmicky, Oh Cater Todds.
We need that that's going to be the next big thing,
or we need to reference Tyra Banks and Kim Kardashian

(01:57:57):
and pop culture. It's like, no, you need to promote
matches before they happen and make us believe that the
outcomes matter. And then and and have wrestlers on a
journey where those wins and losses matter, tell us a
story that they they tell the story Jason. They're capable
of it in breaking ground, but then they it gets
like you say, Vincent man, it gets control of it

(01:58:18):
and suddenly that journey is over. You made it to
the main roster and now you're just putting viscit man's
hand and you're there to recite lines that you memorize,
uh that you may or may not have any passion.

Speaker 2 (01:58:28):
Or belief in.

Speaker 1 (01:58:29):
And we need to inject X number of pop culture
references per show so that we can get on Twitter,
and and they lose sight of it. And yet if
you watch Breaking Ground, it's it's not perfect. And there's
things watching that where I'm just like, that's not the
key to success, and someone needs to tell them that.
But they're they're telling a story about somebody being on
a journey and and and roadblocks and and and obstacles

(01:58:50):
and overcoming them, and you see their heart and you
see their tears and and and that's just missing that
that that connection to humanity is missing from Raw Jason.

Speaker 5 (01:59:00):
Definitely. Yeah, it feels scripted. It feels like a bad
variety show. All the things we've been talking about. There's rains.
It just isn't connecting because he doesn't seem real more
often than not, and I mean he is. We've spent
a lot of time talking about Roman reigns, and he's
part of the issue. There's so many issues right now,

(01:59:21):
top to bottom in WWE where there's just no real
reason to be excited. They have a tag title match
coming up at TLC where a bunch of guys are
gonna fly off ladders and do all sorts of crazy things,
and they couldn't even get bothered to give it a
proper bill because they're too busy having New Day out
there dancing with Team Bad. Kevin Owens and Dean Ambrose
are having a contract signing. OOO. Last night was we

(01:59:44):
got Dean Ambrose being overly cute and throwing popcorn and
pop at Kevin Owens for no good re The list
just goes down and.

Speaker 1 (01:59:50):
On Diane, I'm not kidding, Jase, there's way too many
things in that march of stupidity for three hours and
fifteen minutes to cover all of it on the show.
And we've been on for two hours now and I
bet we've hit one fourth of the things that I
could do rants on. I mean, it's the product has
gone so far off the rails. And you know what,
I would adjust my thinking if this was work, and Jason,
I mean I really would, because it's not what it's

(02:00:10):
not what I like, it's not about what I like.
I tell people that I don't. I don't care if
you like something and you I shouldna say, I don't
care if he's like, if you like something, great, But
that doesn't mean it's good for business. It doesn't mean
it's the right thing for the product. We all have
guilty pleasures, but Vince McMahon it's three hours and fifteen
minutes of pleasures of his that should he should feel

(02:00:31):
guilty about, but he doesn't. And and because he's a
billion you know, virtual billionaire, and he doesn't have to
answer to anybody, and you're seeing it manifest as this
craze seventy year old putting forward all of his weird stuff.
At least we're getting less scatological humor, you know, we're
getting less of that lately from him, but neverthe or
in you know, he'll billy humor. I mean, but just

(02:00:53):
wait till next week or the week after, because you'll
think that's the key, you know, we need.

Speaker 5 (02:00:56):
We're back to testical jokes with Tater Todds.

Speaker 1 (02:00:58):
That's true. Yeah, yeah, And I think I haven't said
that yet, and you have like four times, Jason, so how.

Speaker 5 (02:01:05):
Can you not? I mean, it was just so ridiculous,
I know, because I'm got by with grapefruits ones, and
so they're just going to keep going back to that testicular.

Speaker 1 (02:01:13):
Well, no, no, you're absolutely right, And I mean it's
just kind of a bit that I'm trying to avoid
it because there's so many other things to complained about.
It's it's it is the obvious one, it's the most
prominent one, it was the most featured one. But my
problems with the show runs so wide, so vast, so
deep that you can take those fried potato nuggets out
of the picture and still it's just an abhorrent episode.

(02:01:36):
It was worse than last week. Last week had some
aspects to it that had some had some fundamentals that
I thought were right, even if the product wasn't over.
But no, very much so. And and Jay's right, and
I think you know everything he's said. It was a
good note to end on. PW Torch dot com is
our website. It is customized for your desktop, your laptop,

(02:01:56):
your tablet. And you're smart, very good, Jason, thank you
very much. It's crazy, but this two hours and six
minutes flew by, and we appreciate everybody listening to us
and spread the word about our show. And we've just
we had our best November by a wide margin last month.
I think were I can't remember this if we're up

(02:02:16):
fifty percent or I think we're up fifty percent from
last November and more than double two Novembers ago. So
we continue to grow even as wrestling fans fade from
watching RAW. I guess one good metric is we continue
to our listenership and download and listen numbers keep going up.
So thank you everybody for that, and stick around and

(02:02:37):
we'll continue to talk to you and with you about
professional wrestling, and of course in the meantime, check out
PW torch dot com and Pro Wrestling dot Net. That
is Jason's site. Big thanks to Jason is always on
Tuesdays and until next time. Wade Keller signing off, we

(02:03:01):
are running our second VIP sale of the year. You
want to take advantage of this. If you've thought of
going vip or let your sublaps had to step away
for a while, it's a good time to come back.
PW Toorch dot com slash Go vip tells you about
VIP membership. There is a link to our order form
and you can choose a one month or three month
subscription and you can take nine dollars off any of

(02:03:22):
those three options. The coupon code is Nov. Twenty twenty five.
As in November Nov. Twenty twenty five. To take nine
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(02:03:45):
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(02:04:07):
terms of podcast length, and it is a new feature.
I'm running two, three four times a week. I'm going
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or one year sub. All right, we're now in the

(02:04:32):
VIP after show portion of the program. Jasonpowlfurprowossing dot Net.
I'm Wade Keller from Pro Wrestling Torch. This is the
VIP after show Jason. Since you teased it, I'm on
the edge of my seat. I need to know what
question do you have for me regarding Roman Arraigns.

Speaker 11 (02:04:46):
I know it's amazing that there would even still be
one after all the Roman Range talk during the show,
But all the talk about Roman Reigns being a heel
and how much better he would be, I think everyone's
looking at it from the character perspective. Only do we
know that this guy is capable of being a good
heel in the actual wrestling ring, and not just mannerism

(02:05:06):
and things, but actually selling for someone. He's been protected
for so long that even when he was a heel
with the shield, he wasn't asked to do a whole lot.

Speaker 2 (02:05:15):
It's it's it is. It's a good question.

Speaker 1 (02:05:17):
But if he's not, if he can't be, I think
I think he's got enough going for him that we
need to find out.

Speaker 11 (02:05:26):
Yeah, but you're right.

Speaker 1 (02:05:28):
I mean it's almost like you would want to put
him in a house show for a couple of weekends
and not have him play a heel where you know,
people go why it was Roman being a bad guy,
but have him actually from a wrestling standpoint, take those
bumps and see if he can maybe even turn a
crowd that's against him more against him, kind of subtly,

(02:05:51):
and and experiment a little bit with a live crowd.
But it is it is a good question. I mean,
if you're bad at being a babyface, it doesn't mean
you're going to be good at being a heel. Uh
In that that doesn't just apply to the person on
the microphone, You're right, it applies to in the ring.
I think he'd be fine. I don't think the bar
is as high for a heel as a babyface when

(02:06:12):
it comes to I think you can get away with
more shortcomings as a top heel than a top babyface
because you want fans to boo you. But again, it
would come down you know, your matches have to be watchable.
They have to be more than watchable. They have to
be engaging and.

Speaker 11 (02:06:25):
What moves does he do though, I mean, right now,
if you just look at his move set, it's punch, kick,
running kick, an occasional suplex, big punch spear. What moves
does he do is a heel?

Speaker 2 (02:06:36):
That's true.

Speaker 1 (02:06:36):
Well, maybe all the same moves with all the same mannerisms,
and he becomes the poster boy for the corporate video
game era wrestler and everything like that. Every time he
cocks his fist and does his routine, he pretends not
not oblivious, like you know, even Mario, my fans are
waiting for me to return from from Paris, but more
like he does it despite them, you know, just in
your face. I mean, there's it's it's they've got to

(02:06:59):
figure out what the next meta gimmick is going to be.
Where you know, you are playing into something that the
fans feel a rage inside about. And yeah, Roman being
the corporate chosen one, and I'm I'm more for Hayman
than the corporate than being with Hunter and stuff, because
I just encounters to.

Speaker 2 (02:07:17):
Go completely away, right.

Speaker 1 (02:07:20):
I don't think my feelings on Stephanie are necessarily reflected widely,
but every time I see her, I am just bracing
to be patronized, and I think that she does. She's
very good at times in certain very isolated spots, very
very good. But it's just the wrong thing for her

(02:07:40):
to be doing, you know, It's just she there's not
equity in her being an on air heel or bouncing
back and forth between heel and baby face of charity work.
Let her be the brand ambassador outs off television who
makes occasional cameos. When WWE does their little video package
on the equivalent of the NFL's make a Wish video,
you know, whatever they're doing, show Stephanie as the as
the brand ambassador, carrying on the mcmah tradition, but keep

(02:08:03):
her off out of the wrestling ring and out of
commercials promoting you know, moves to USA Network.

Speaker 11 (02:08:10):
And I really think I might be onto something with that,
Like that may have been the plan last year. I mean,
if you look back at what we saw from Paul
Hayman and Roman Reigns last year and during the build,
they were very respectful to one another to the point
that people were wondering if there was going to be
a heel turned then and with the way the WrestleMania
finish went with Seth Rollins cashing and before we got

(02:08:32):
a decisive winner between Brock and Roman reigns. I just
wonder if they were kind of planting seeds for a
year down the road, If this is something that they
at least had in mind, not that they were married
to it, then either way, I think it sets it
up perfectly. I think you can go back and show
some of those clips going into this year's Mania, or
just kind of recreate that vibe again, and then you

(02:08:52):
still keep that match alive. And I know that people
don't want to hear this, but it could headline the
following year's WrestleMania or at least SummerSlam, where now Lesner, we
still didn't get a real win, a real winner or
loser because Hayman did something. You know, there was some
reason that Rains lost, and he wants it once and
for all to find out who the better man is
between those two.

Speaker 1 (02:09:12):
I know, I like it, and I think there is
absolutely a possibility that it's crossed some people's minds and
those seeds were planted intentionally. My question is, Jason, do
you think that Vince McMahon right now is seriously considering it,
even planting seeds for Roman reigns as a heel, either
as a primary or a backup plan.

Speaker 11 (02:09:34):
I do know I mentioned earlier he could be buying
time right now where they didn't pull the trigger on
him winning the championship at Survivors Series. I looked at
it as he just thought it was too predictable. Maybe
and there were reports out there that he was going
to if Seth was healthy. So maybe it doesn't mean anything.
But you know, if they did reevaluate some things and
they're looking going, man, yeah, we need a top baby face.

(02:09:57):
But at least we have seen a coming back or
we always pretty good about creating good baby faces, but
we're really struggling on the heel side. Maybe that you know,
I'm just throwing it out, there's a possibility that that's
kind of the plan is to keep that title away
from him so that when somebody does win it, he
snaps or you know, he just doesn't feel like he
can beat Lesnar or whatever. You know, how whatever logic

(02:10:18):
you want to use to get him with him in
At some point, I think, you know, if I had
to bet on this with I would say that, yeah,
Bench is probably hell Bench on on making Roman range
his top baby face, but maybe something gives there, Maybe
he's maybe he finally sees the light like everyone else
has apparently.

Speaker 1 (02:10:37):
Yeah, that's it's an interesting It's I'm I mean, I
know people are frustrated with Row right now, obviously and rightfully,
so I'm really intrigued. I don't think that change is
going to happen if the ratings, uh, we're staying at
two point six and the show was blah. Yeah, I'm
surprised we're not seeing more changes that quicker with two

(02:10:59):
point point one. Something in two point two, something really.

Speaker 11 (02:11:02):
That we might have when they were, you know, gepping
below three.

Speaker 1 (02:11:04):
I know, And then I thought for sure under two
point five it would get Vince's attention, and I was wrong.

Speaker 2 (02:11:09):
I mean, it just hasn't. You know.

Speaker 1 (02:11:10):
He's more stubborn than I than I imagined, and things
sunk into to depths that I didn't did not anticipate.
I mean, I when Raw went to three hours, I thought,
you know, within six to twelve months, Raw would see
a rating under two point five. But it was like, really, Wade,
you think Raw could be less than too? I mean,
the reaction to my and it took it took longer

(02:11:30):
for the rating to get that low. But we're there,
and I still am just not convinced at all that
they're gonna rise consistently above two point five even during
WrestleMania season. Uh maybe two point five something, you know,
But I I don't know that we're gonna see many
two six to seven two eights wrestle Anya season, barring
barring a real shake up that grabs people's attention. I

(02:11:53):
think people who are looking away are gonna look back.
They're gonna they're gonna turn back to rawn and check in.
They're not gonna completely get up. And that's the hope.
That's the great hope for WWE, is that these fans
are longtime loyal fans and they're tuning out of a
losing season where they feel there's nothing to play for.
But there's always next season, and Vince's counting on that.

(02:12:15):
But he's got to show them something that gets them
interested engaged again. He can't take them for granted. And
I think there's a level of taking their fans for
granted right now while they get so focused on you know,
brand building and just being you know, pushing the network
and pushing.

Speaker 2 (02:12:31):
The charity and all that. And I think they've lost
sight of why people watch wrestling.

Speaker 11 (02:12:36):
I would agree, yeah. And one thing I want to clarify.
I know you get some email questions, but when I
talked about Roman Reigns being protected this whole time, I
think they were right to protect him. They probably took
at you an extreme and there's some flaws in his
game because of it. But I've always been an advocate
for that. Back when people were saying, oh, there's guy's
just protected and blah blah, it's like, well, there's a
lot of guys have been traditionally over the years that

(02:12:58):
have been very successful in the industry. So I just
didn't want people to think I was being hypercritical there.

Speaker 1 (02:13:02):
No, it's just Vince's Vince made the wrong call. He
protected a guy who didn't who didn't take off. So
it's it's not that you shouldn't protect people who you
want to push. Is just in retrospect, sometimes you're right,
sometimes you're wrong. In this case, Vince was wrong and
Roman the product is let Roman down. Roman's let down
the brand. Okay, email question, this is Tony and Omaha.

(02:13:22):
Roman Reigns is a guy. Oh you know what, we
took his call, So I don't need to take his email.
I pulled this up earlier and marked it, but he actually.

Speaker 11 (02:13:31):
Got through, So screw you, Tony.

Speaker 1 (02:13:34):
Oh and by the way, definitively, Charles Flanagan says, he
is not I should have said this on lockcout.

Speaker 2 (02:13:40):
He is not a plagiarist. How good you did not
see the blog with the Star.

Speaker 11 (02:13:44):
Wars and grade minds do you think alike? And that
really is an excellent piece at will Road. I really
enjoyed that. I mean admittably, I'm a huge Star Wars
nerd and just like counting down the hours until we
get to Thursday night. But I mean it's that aside.
I mean, it's just it brings the two things together
so well and so definitely people check it out.

Speaker 2 (02:14:03):
He says, loving the live cast.

Speaker 1 (02:14:05):
Also, he says loving the live cast though, like, well,
even though you called me out Plager's I love the
live cast.

Speaker 2 (02:14:12):
Okay, where the heck was I? Oh, Tony?

Speaker 1 (02:14:13):
Another comment the product is not fun over the years,
anything fun gets squashed if they're a little fun in
the mid card outside of one's it's all right. So yeah,
I guess he was hurt, all right. So Paul from
Sutherland England said, I would love to have a question
for you too, but with current state, I can't think
of irrelevant one that you won't be addressing.

Speaker 2 (02:14:30):
So I'll leave you with this.

Speaker 1 (02:14:32):
Out of all my friends, family and co workers, I
have two people I talked about wrestling with. Both have
said they are giving up until the Royal Romo kicks in.
Neither subscribed to the network. I subscribed to the network
and both of your sites right now NXT is the
best thing on the network and both your podcasts for
the week have me sticking with the current shows. Sorry,
I don't have a question, but I will be at
the NXT show on Newcastle on Thursday, so I'll pass
along results to both of you. Excellent, Thank you, Paul, NXT.

(02:14:57):
I mean, Jason, I'm just like I'm tempted to just
be like, like, all right, if next week sucks, we're
just gonna do a Tuesday show about you know, We'll
do fifteen minutes on RAW and then we'll let people
know ahead of time we're gonna do NXT roh.

Speaker 2 (02:15:11):
Look look at what's.

Speaker 1 (02:15:12):
Going on in TNA, talk about New Japan, talk about
take the Takeover Special, anything but Raw. You know, and
just try it for a Tuesday, because I mean, we
have a great spot on Tuesday, because you know, we
analyzed the most watched show and it still is the
most watch show by far. But and we have all
week in our respective sites to talk about all the
other stuff. But it would be kind of fun to

(02:15:33):
see how a live cast would go. And we're not
just you know, upset about Rock because there's so much
other stuff out there, a lot of it is really good.

Speaker 11 (02:15:39):
Maybe we could do that after the Slammy addition, but
you know it's because people want their wine line. They
really do. They need to bench.

Speaker 2 (02:15:46):
Yeah, yeah, I agree.

Speaker 1 (02:15:48):
So it's not a not a solid locked in idea,
just a brainstort. All right, Daryl from Georgia. If they
blow this up, do you guys feel they should use
new lead babyface in new heels and make the ones
like Roman go away for a while until the heat
is off from the fans. Second, I think what they
had Dean do unraw was so childish and far from
who they tell us he is, that he should get

(02:16:09):
dominated Sunday since he was since the shows he he
has no focus on this feud. Last I haven't heard
your opinion weight on the new Concision movie that comes
out this week and how it's a concussion Oh he.

Speaker 2 (02:16:21):
Just okay, I'm not close enough to the screen.

Speaker 1 (02:16:23):
I thought there's some movie and how it exposed wwwe's
head doctor James Maroon, And do you think that's going
to make people question WWE's processes like it will the
NFL That was brought up actually Darryl on the Friday
Live cast, And I want to see the movie before
commenting too much, but yeah, I mean, I think it
sounds like it discredits James Maroon pretty pretty solidly. And

(02:16:45):
it I mean, if you're Daniel Brian and you want
to get back on the roster, you know this. The
timing's not good. Or maybe it is good because somebody
needs to look out for Daniel Bryan. But I'll uh,
when I see the movie, I'll sure talk more about it.
But yeah, I mean, it's I'm glad it's finally not
I shouldn't even say finally. I glads me talked about
at the level that it is.

Speaker 18 (02:17:06):
Are you a nostalgic wrestling fan? Do you want to
hear about shows you haven't seen in ten, twenty, maybe
even thirty years? Well, I have the show for you.
I'm pwtortch dot com contributor Frank Pettyni and since December
of twenty twenty, I've hosted Pro Wrestling Then and Now.
Together with a rotating chair of co hosts. We go
back and review old shows from top to bottom, talk

(02:17:27):
about where the wrestlers were at the time, and compare
what's taking place now to what took place. Then you
can hear this along with other shows as part of
your PW Sorts VIP membership with exclusive podcasts just for
members compatible with the Apple Podcasts app Visit pwtorch dot com,
slash Go vip for details and sign up form.

Speaker 11 (02:17:52):
Yeah, and media. I mean that's where I don't know
how well this movie is going to do at the
box office. I really want. I think there's interest in this.
I think it's one of those things that I'm guessing
has kind of a staggered audience where someone'll see it
in the theater. It's also Star Wars Mania is so
I don't know how many people will at that time,
But once it gets to you know, DBD, eventually Netflix,

(02:18:14):
assuming it goes there, I think a lot of people
are going to altally end up seeing this, but initially
I think the biggest reaction is going to be from
the media. That's my guess, but you know, I definitely
want to see it before commenting as well.

Speaker 2 (02:18:28):
Dean Abros just he's just a destroyed character. He is.

Speaker 1 (02:18:31):
He is the embodiment of of what doubled up. I mean,
you look for examples and people get ruined by Vince
Wickmann's sports entertainment whatever zany haha approach. It's all about
putt smiles on people's faces. Dean is I don't know
that he I guess he can come back from this,
but it's it's going to be hard. I mean, I
just he's just a mid card comedy figure and he
was on the way to being so much more than that.

Speaker 2 (02:18:50):
In the Shield.

Speaker 1 (02:18:50):
It hurts to talk about it. Would you send some
people away if you did a big shake up, Jason
and I like that idea. I mean, I send some
people to way and reintroduced them a little bit at
a time. Although they're going to have that in a
way with seen A Czarro, Orton Seth and maybe Daniel
Bryan and certainly sammy' zay, you're gonna have some people
who fans are familiar with getting dropped into the mix,
you know, over time when they're healthy. I would, but yeah,

(02:19:13):
I mean there's something, there's something to be said for
pulling somebody away. But really with Rains, I think the
most impact comes from super baby face push that flops,
goes heel, and he's still on TV as a major presence.

Speaker 11 (02:19:22):
Yeah, Rains, I wouldn't send away because even if you
sent him away with the idea of bringing him back
as a baby face, I still don't think it would
work unless there's like a Shield reunion. That's when Roman
Range is going to work as a baby face on
a major level. Was whenever that happens. But I would
send Dolf Zeigler away without question. I mean there's no
hope for him right now. I mean for the longest time.

(02:19:43):
If well, if they turn him heel again. I just like,
he's out there selling last night and selling and it's
just like I've seen this so many times before. I'm
numb to it. And I don't think it's just because
I watch a lot of wrestling. I think if you're
a new viewer, you're like, Wow, this is impressive. People
don't care about him anymore. They've seen him do this
selling bit so many times they're numb to it as well.

(02:20:06):
So there's other people that, yeah, I would send away,
but as far as like top guys, nobody jumps out.
I mean, I was saying that Nicki Bella needed to
go away for a while, and unfortunately she's injured. But
I think, assuming everything works out health wise in the
long term, this is a good thing for her. And
there are other examples like that of people that have
just been overexposed or placed in bad gimmicks. Said, yeah,

(02:20:28):
they could use a little bit of a break from television.
Maybe they're doing that now a big show. I mean,
I don't know what you're gonna get out of him
once he does return, but he's working house shows and
he hasn't appeared on television yet. So the next time
they tease something big, his fear that it's a big show.

Speaker 1 (02:20:43):
To sort of relate to Timothy T say, simple question,
where's sand out with a huge loss of talent due
to these injuries with a guy who was crazy over
during WrestleMania, help fill in the gap somewhere is he
injured and we just haven't heard about it. I'd love
to see your return of the Intellectual Savior.

Speaker 11 (02:20:55):
Jason, he's been working house shows. I guess he hasn't
popped up on the least couple weekends that I recall,
or at least this weekend he didn't. I don't think
there's any injury there. I just don't think they have
any faith in him. You know, he he was playing
the Randy Savage character to Curtis Axels Hulkgan, and then

(02:21:17):
when the Hogan controversy occurred, that scraped that, and it
was he kind of goes back to the intellectual Savior
gimmick on the road. But the sounds of it in
a baby face way, I believe, and people are into that,
but I just don't think they see him as a
difference maker. And so even if you do see him
in a back on television, I wouldn't get your hopes up.

Speaker 1 (02:21:35):
And we're gonna add with a rant from Jason d.
He was on hold for ninety minutes, but he was
a skype caller, so I didn't know what where he
was on the phone banks. And he says I had
so many good points to make.

Speaker 2 (02:21:45):
Anyway, here are three to discuss.

Speaker 1 (02:21:46):
He put a smiley face there so he's not arrogant,
he's being funny.

Speaker 11 (02:21:50):
They better be good after this build up.

Speaker 2 (02:21:52):
He says, road Dog.

Speaker 1 (02:21:53):
It doesn't matter if you were WWE believe the rating
system is archaic. The fact is you are getting paid
one hundreds of millions of dollars by TV network who
does think it does Therefore they are vitally important. Bottom
line Two, I'm sick of people saying if you don't
like the show, then don't watch.

Speaker 5 (02:22:07):
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (02:22:08):
Yes, for many fans like us, WWWE is not a
TV show but a sports team that many of us
have followed for years. I have for twenty five of them.
Right now, we have a team that is losing, with
players in the wrong position and a coach who clearly
does not know what he is doing. You simply can't
just stop watching, just like any other sports team we care.
And Third, if I were Triple H, I'd stop using
the term nerds in a semi derogatory way, because it's

(02:22:29):
the nerds who are helping pay for WWE network. You know,
the future of WWE just something he might want to consider.
You know, Triple AH just can't help himself. You know,
it's just it's the way it's his towel snapping sarcasm
that he does that. It's just his way, it's his
it's it's it's just it's his personality. But he's got
to rein it in. I mean, he doesn't have to,

(02:22:50):
but I think he ought to rein it in as
a guy who sets the tone as a leader. There's
just things you do when you're in a position on
top instead of kind of that wise cracking, towel snapping
wrestler on the roster who's part of the locker room.
You got to adjust, and you know, I think he's
doing a better job of it lately. But yeah, I'm
with him, Jason. I would I would stay away from that,
and we talked about it earlier in the show.

Speaker 11 (02:23:12):
I don't even remember the comment was that it's something
that I mean, I guess are people listening to it
or are they just reading it? Going how dare he?
I mean, if he's saying it the right way, it's
probably lingo I would avoid, But I don't remember being
insulted by it.

Speaker 1 (02:23:25):
Yeah, it's not it's not a top hundred gripe of mine.
I'm just saying it's it's words matter, and I think
you don't want to give off. It was in the
I brought it up in the context of Drew Galloway
being an appealing to the wrestling NERD's appealing to the
ones who who want to who don't. There's people who won't,
who would not accept a job that would not allow
them to bring to wear a wrestling T shirt to work.
You know those people, you know, screw it if I

(02:23:48):
can't wear my my you know, wrestler X T shirt.

Speaker 11 (02:23:51):
For the fanboys's there's a different well there is.

Speaker 1 (02:23:54):
But but you know, Drew Galloway is saying, we love
pro wrestling. We all love pro wrestling. We're all in
it together and happened to be a wrestler, and I'm
fighting for you. And I just don't think Triple Ah
should use language or demeanor in a any any setting
that creates a tone that says if you get if
you get a little too into into being a wrestling mark,
you know, I'm gonna give you a hard time. It's like,
let let let's let people get immersed in the product.

(02:24:17):
And and you know, the same way people do really
well produced big time wrestling shows, you know, Walking Dead
or Game of Thrones or whatever.

Speaker 11 (02:24:25):
Yeah, I mean, people get mad when William Shatner reminds
Star Trek fans and it's just a freaking television show.
I get it was Triple wrestling.

Speaker 1 (02:24:33):
You know what, though, if his if William Shatner's money
was on the line and he was the one in
charge of a new Star Trek franchise, he shouldn't be
saying that.

Speaker 11 (02:24:39):
Oh right, right, Well, but was Triple h being a
wrestling nerd when he was counting how many championships he
won as he tried to catch Rick Flair, because lord
knows he was.

Speaker 2 (02:24:47):
That is the irony, isn't it, Jason?

Speaker 11 (02:24:50):
Yeah, and real quick, that whole thing on stop watching.
I mean, it's it's I think most people have vaguered
out like it's just you know, it's e jerk reaction
from not in every case, some people are going to
enjoy things legitimately, and there's others that are just going
to enjoy everything that pro wrestling has to offer or
WWE or specific company. And it scares me when we

(02:25:13):
start to hear those things, because I did hear those
same things about w c W and tn A when
T and A was bad. And I'll just you know,
I don't even know that it's I don't mean to
toot horns here or anything, but we have a pretty
good track record of pointing out when things are really
bad and they need to change or or they're not

(02:25:34):
going to be around, or they're going to lose a
television deal. I mean, it's just you enjoy the show
every you know, if you if you enjoy it, great,
But that whole if you don't like it, stop watching
mentality is just ridiculous.

Speaker 2 (02:25:47):
It is. I'm with you.

Speaker 1 (02:25:48):
I mean, it's it's it's sometimes I think it's just
it's trolling. You know, it's people seeing who's going to
be dumb enough to respond to this, and you know,
or or you know, can I waste that it was me?
Oh exactly, No, I know, And I sometimes, I mean
not out of ten times, I catch myself. And then
sometimes I'm just in a mood, you know, we're I'll
be like, all right, I'll take debit on the chance
that they're serious and they're just stupid. And I'm over

(02:26:09):
using the word stupid today. But I'm just trying to
be nice because that's a nicer version of what I'm thinking.
So I mean, oh, they're just there's people who just yeah,
they're not as Damian Sandal would say, they're they're intellectually
inferior to him, and they don't understand that there are
different ways to follow in critique wrestling other than blind
faith or turning it off completely. There's a vast middle

(02:26:30):
ground on which you and I, Jason, have made our
living for many years. Yes, all right, thanks everybody, Thanks
VAP members for sending in questions. We will wrap up
on that note a mega loong edition of the live cast.
They'll probably get shorter during the holidays. Here, we'll see
unless vinswick Man does something explosive and amazingly good instead
of just more of the same bad, we shall see Jason,

(02:26:52):
thank you very much.

Speaker 11 (02:26:53):
So they're going to be shorter, He's what you're saying. Hey,
I'll talk you next week.

Speaker 1 (02:26:56):
Yeah, we'll see about that probably, it'd be hard not
to after this week, all right, if you missed it earlier.
Just a reminder, we're running our second VIP sale of
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(02:27:40):
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Invite you to email the show with feedback or questions
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(02:28:01):
That's at PW Torch and at the Wadekeller.

Speaker 11 (02:28:07):
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(02:28:28):
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Speaker 13 (02:29:01):
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Speaker 2 (02:30:38):
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Speaker 19 (02:30:42):
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(02:31:34):
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