10 YRS AGO FLAGSHIP: Keller & Powell discuss Cena's return announcement, Slammys episode of Raw with surprising winners, ratings news, more

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Speaker 2 (01:05):
Now PW Torch and Spreaker bring you the Wade Keller
Pro Wrestling Podcast ten years ago.

Speaker 1 (01:16):
This week on the flagship Jason Paulwelcom Pro Wrestling dot
Net joined me and we talked about John Cena's return announcement.
The Slammies episode of Raw was surprising, winners, breaking, ratings,
news and more so, let's get to it. We had
live callers sprinkled in throughout the program. This originally live
streamed on December twenty second, twenty fifteen, and it is
today's Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast ten years ago flagship

(01:38):
flashback for Sunday, December twenty first, twenty twenty.

Speaker 3 (01:41):
Five Lootch Radio.

Speaker 1 (01:53):
Welcome to the ep W Torch Live Cast. I am
Way Keller, editor and publisher of the Pro Wrestling Torch
weekly newsletter since nineteen eighty seven, covering the inside aspects
of the professional wrestling industry for over twenty eight years,
and also PW torch dot Com and the new PW
Torch app available free in the Apple App Store, the

(02:16):
iPhone App Store and a new version coming soon to
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to download our free apps in the iTunes or excuse
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(02:36):
MMA fights live as they happen, with a ton of
coverage leading into and coming out of those events also
along with daily news updates updated full time by Jamie
Pennock over at mmatorch dot com. I also host this
THEPW Torch Livecast. I host on Tuesdays and Thursdays, although
this Thursday we will not be live in observance of
Christmas Eve and also Christmas Bruson Travis will be off. However,

(03:00):
normally I'm here on Tuesdays and Thursdays. Last Thursday on
my usual interview format, Stone Cold, Steve Austin was my guest.
A lot of buzz coming out of that show with
his thoughts on Shane McMahon near the end of the program,
Roman Reigns throughout the midst of the program, and a
lot of other thoughts including his dream guests for the

(03:21):
live cast. For the live cast for his Steve Austin
Show podcast, some interesting answers from him about wrestlers and
non wrestlers he'd like to have on his show on
his dream list, so anyway, some definitely check that out.
And then, by the way, two weeks ago we had
Jim Ross on the program on Thursday for over two hours,
A really good episode of the live cast two with

(03:42):
a lot of thoughts from Jim on Roman reigns and
the state of WWE, and Holiday's couple interviews. Certainly we're
seeking out, but on Tuesdays as usual, my guest is
Jason Powell from Pro Wrestling dot Net, And without further ado,
let's bring Jason into the conversation. Jason, welcome to the show.
Might as well lead with the ratings, which just came

(04:04):
in four raw a middle ground I guess, between where
they were last week and where they were for several
weeks before that, coming in at a two point three
to three rating. That's down from two point six to
sixth last week, but way up from two point one five,
two point two to one and two point one six
the previous three the previous three weeks. Is that a win, Jason,

(04:25):
that they didn't drop all the way back down even
though it was by most accounts an awful show or
was it a uh no? What's your take on it?

Speaker 4 (04:34):
I think it's a win just because it it didn't
drop back down to those levels. You know, people tuned
in the night after TLC that they saw bench, they
saw the title change and everything that happened that night,
and a lot of them came back. It's a holiday week,
I know. I mean, I know a lot of people
who have the entire week off. That may have something
to do with it. I guess the biggest win of

(04:55):
the night goes to the fact that they didn't lose
a ton of viewers throughout the show. I don't know
how I wanted to turn that thing off, Like at
least thirty minutes into the show, is like, this is terrible.

Speaker 1 (05:08):
Yeah, it was such a different show. I listened to
your member review of Raw last night on audio and
you said that you were glad you weren't in that
building for that show. I felt the same way. It's
not the Slammy Award show. I just don't think. I mean,
you have to be a certain type of fan. And
maybe you know, if I was, you know, fifteen years
old and loved the Slammies, I'd want to be there

(05:31):
to witness it live and it would be a big
deal to me and I could brag about it years later.
But I was there for Slammy Awards. I don't really
feel that way about Slammy Awards right now. And from
some feedback I got from in the building. It was
a pretty dreadful show to be at live because people
were mostly who paid money to sit ringside, were mostly
looking through the ring, through the ropes, over fans heads

(05:52):
at a stage or at a big screen to watch
people come out and do the part of award shows
that generally people hate, which is the scripted banter, the
lame jokes and all of that that leads to awards,
the awards being announced. I mean, it's not exactly a mari.
I mean, yes, people watch the Oscars and the Emmys,
and they like to see the stars all dressed up,

(06:14):
and they like to see who wins the awards. But
I don't think their favorite part is the scripted, almost
intentionally bad humor and overly scripted banter between the presenters.
And that was like the majority of the three hours
last night leading up to the main event.

Speaker 4 (06:28):
It was yeah, and the wrestling they had on the
show was fine. I heard from. I had several friends
in attendance, and some are people who would be listening
to this show. Others are more casual fans. None of
them had good things to say about the experience of
attending this lammis in person, just long gaps. You know,
they do the voting bit and then they go to
the commercial break, and it was just like these long gaps.

(06:50):
And there's always obviously commercial breaks during raw and so
they're used to that. It just felt like a really
long night without enough action. And I would say the
one thing that the WWE emulated best from the award
show is something that doesn't happen on the award shows
typically very often, and that's so and so couldn't be
here tonight, but we gladly accept the award on his

(07:11):
or her behalf. How many times did we hear.

Speaker 2 (07:13):
That it really was too much?

Speaker 1 (07:15):
I mean I thought to be there live in thinking, Hey,
the Slammies is a big deal. You know, this is
a big award ceremony, and you know, they sarcastically and
I kind of explained why I thought it was a
bad idea on my hotline last night for VIFP members.
They sarcastically called it the most prestigious award program and
all of television, and it was sort of tongue in cheek, like, oh,
we're not taking ourselves seriously, you know, from the veryans outset,

(07:36):
because obviously they don't think it's the most important award
show in all of television. I mean the way they
present it. They presented as two thirds a joke and
one third somewhat of a big deal, you know, Superstar
of the Year, Match of the Year, that kind of thing.
But mostly it's kind of you know, Tuesday Night Titans,
Primetime Wrestling, Saturday Night's made event bobbing for pumpkins and
chocolate sauce like they made Bobby Heenan do back in
the mid eighties. They treated as hey, this is when

(07:58):
we get to sports entertain people with non wrestling, and
so if you're going to do that, it's hard to
then take some of the awards seriously. But what made
it even worse is so many of the winners weren't
there and it was time after time. And yes, it
was nice to see Seth Rowins come back. That helped
because had Seth not been there, that would have really

(08:18):
led to a huge streak. But to not have rock
around Ralsei there understandable, but nevertheless, Sting not there kind
of would have been nice to fly him in. Actually,
if you want to make the slammy scene important, and
for John Cena to not be there when he's on
you know, I understand reality show Holidays coming back next
week poper rating, but it did lead to just inordinate

(08:39):
to put it simply, too many of the winners weren't there,
and it made the award seem not worth bothering.

Speaker 2 (08:44):
To be there for.

Speaker 1 (08:45):
And I think that did take away from whatever value
the show had.

Speaker 4 (08:49):
Oh it certainly did. And I mean it's I don't
know what's stopping them from getting pre recorded messages and
acting as if they're live. You just claim that so
and so is live via selde. They know who is
winning the vast majority of the awards, and if they
get some tape comments from somebody, well then obviously don't
air them. Go with whoever is in the building if
that person happens to pull off an upset win. But

(09:11):
they know there's I mean, the two exceptions. If they
didn't want seen as face on television, they wanted to
make that you know, something you tune in for next week,
not even in a video. Okay. The other one is Undertaker.
I can give them a pass on that one, but
Rock probably would have done them a thirty second bid
or something like that. Everyone else that wasn't there, they
could have easily contacted and had them send something, and

(09:34):
brock Lesner included, Oh.

Speaker 2 (09:36):
I totally agree.

Speaker 1 (09:38):
You can support us on Patreon and get these shows
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(10:01):
dot com slash pw toorchvip and you can also upgrade
to other tiers and receive even more benefits through Patreon. Yeah,
and I get you know, Paul Hayman saying Brock comes
to fight not to accept awards. I almost think it
would have been almost cheesy for the brock Lesner character
to be there. However, you can't help but feel it
added to the sense that nobody showed up for the

(10:22):
awards ceremony who won, you know, I mean, it's just
at some point it does chip away at the prestige
of the whole of the whole thing. But thankfully, you know,
I mean, having Santino come back having Seth show up
and thank god Paul Hayman was flown in. I mean,
it stopped short of being an utter disaster. I mean,
if they didn't have you know, Seth show up, and

(10:43):
they didn't have you know, Santino was sort of a
pleasant surprise show up for the Haha Award or whatever
they call it, then it really I think would have
turned into it just a comedic disaster in a way
that WWB did not intend, I thought. And by the way,
the hourly ratings, speaking of that, went down each hour again,
first hour was pretty solid and second and third hours

(11:04):
each dropped. The third wasn't as big of a drop
compared to the second, but it still dropped in the
lowest viewership was at the end. Are you being sarcastic
or you're shocked that the third hour drew less?

Speaker 4 (11:16):
No, I'm shocked in the sense that it didn't just
completely go in the toilet. I really expected to see
whatever the number was to start the first hour, it
to be dramatically lower for that final hour, and it
didn't really.

Speaker 1 (11:27):
Go there, right yep, So the first hour did three
point four million, the second hour just or let me
do it this way. The first hour did a little
over three point four million, the second hour did a
little under three point four million, and the third hour
did barely over three point three million, so a drop
each hour as they went. I thought they need They

(11:50):
would have benefited from doing a better job promoting the
main event. I think that had they put more emphasis
promos and hype into promoting the cage match at the
end and having oh god, I don't know, maybe a
promo from Seamus who's pissed off about losing the title
last week and out to take it out on Dean

(12:10):
Ambrose and the league nations standing around him, patting him
on the shoulder, saying we got your back and we're
gonna teach a lesson to Roman Reigns and Dean Ambrose
that right now there's no escaping the wrath of Shamus,
and have him actually emotionally respond the way you would
think somebody would for losing a title. That would have
been nice. And then have Dean Ambrose cut a promo

(12:31):
doing his bit where he's like, ah, yeah, you think
you're gonna take it out on me? This is my land,
this is my place. I feel at home in a
cage match and Seamus, Unfortunately for you, it's one on one.
Your guys aren'tnna be able to help you, and I've
got some special things planned for you.

Speaker 2 (12:44):
Whatever. Just how hard is that?

Speaker 1 (12:47):
How hard is that to hype this match and have
the announcers, instead of hahaing about Slammy Awards, actually get
us excited about the main event. By the time the
main event happened, Jason, I didn't understand. I forgot why
Stephanie was watching it on a monitor, Like, why did
they cut to Stephanie watching it? Well, what's It's just
it's a cage, man. It had been three hours since
they had told me that Stephanie made this match as

(13:08):
some sort of lesson to Roman Reigns. I mean, I
just I really again, they're presenting matches but not promoting them.
I think they really failed when it came to promoting
that main event last night.

Speaker 4 (13:19):
Oh for sure, I think I know what it was.
But I'll do you one better. I forgot what the
main event was. I really did. I'm just sitting there going, Okay,
what award is going to close out the show? And
I honestly forgot, But I think it in this case,
there's no reason. The announcers can't do the broadcasting can't
do it. But I think they were so you know,
we're going to commercial vote now kind of thing that

(13:40):
the normal graphics you would see throughout the night, they
didn't have a place for them.

Speaker 2 (13:44):
Oh that's a good point. Yeah. And also, by the way.

Speaker 1 (13:47):
Just another little gripe and then we'll we'll go to
our first commercial break, come back and take phone calls
six four six seven, one ninety two eight. By the way,
fewer callers than usual today because of the holiday week.
That was a case I believe last night with James
Caldwell too, totally. I'm standable. People are out, you know,
last second Christmas shopping. I will be last second, last
second Christmas shopping because I hope to maybe get to
it tomorrow or Thursday, both.

Speaker 2 (14:10):
But the.

Speaker 1 (14:13):
Color que isn't as full as usual, so there shouldn't
be as long of a wait as usual. If you're
one of those people who ends up in a long
line and we don't get to you on the show,
because normally we get tons of calls, so good week
to take advantage of it. If you're listening to us
live and just don't like to be on hold a
long time. But anyway, the other grip I had is
Caine versus Ray, Wyatt Jason, the White Family kidnap Kine.

(14:34):
We don't know where he is, unless, of course you
have access to the internet and see that he's working
house shows and he was in the match when Stuff
got injured. But they've really not done I don't think
a particularly good job on Raw or on any of
the shows explaining what happened, how he came back. And oh,
I don't know, maybe Cain should be even more upset
than Shamus and want revenge on Bray for orchestrating his kidnapping,

(14:55):
and so maybe we should have I don't know, to me,
Bray against Caine, that's actually a big deal. I mean,
you don't do a kidnapping angle. You don't do the
beatdown angle that they did to Caine and then do
it if you don't plan to, I mean, you don't.
You just don't do kidnapping angles if you're not gonna
try to draw money in ratings with it.

Speaker 2 (15:11):
That's stupid.

Speaker 1 (15:13):
So we get Bray Caine one on one, and how
much hype did we get ahead of time?

Speaker 2 (15:17):
Zippo zero, not a nothing, I my jaw just dropped.
You're kidding me.

Speaker 1 (15:22):
Caine is wrestling on Raw against the guy who kidnapped
him and his brother, and there's no announcement ahead of time.
That's the match you hadline Hour number three with at
the top. You hype it, you go fans. I know
there's gonna be a lighter side tonight. You can imagine
Jim Raw, any any decent announcer hitting this tone. We're
gonna have the lighter side tonight. The Slammies is an
annual time for us to have some fun. We're gonna

(15:44):
talk about the this of the year and that of
the year, and we've got some surprise guest guests who
are coming out to present awards and it's gonna be fun.
But what happens when the ring is serious, and tonight
it's gonna be serious when Seamus, who's fuming mad about
losing the title, gets in that cage against Dean Ambrose,
who thinks the cage is his home and he relishes
the opportunity to get his hands on Seamus without the

(16:04):
League of Nations get to interfere. And by the way,
stay tuned because also in our number three at the
top of our number three. You're gonna want to tune
in and be sure you're here for it. We're going
to have Cain making his in ring return against Bray Wyatt,
the man who orchestrated is kidnapping, and then we're gonna
go to Kane for some comments, and then we're gonna

(16:25):
go to Bray for some comments, and they hype it
for one hundred twenty minutes before the match starts. This
should not be. What I'm saying is not profound. It's
what every other decent, profitable promoter thought was as obvious
as putting shoe is, putting your socks on both feet
instead of just one sock on one foot and then
going about your day. It's so obvious to me. I

(16:46):
don't understand, Jason, how they do that. It's just like
they sit down the day of the show, go how
are we gonna fill out the show? Well, Cain Bray
probably would mean something more than something else we can
come up with, and they go done. I'm like, but
wait a second, we need to build some hype and
we shouldn't leave the show with it, and they don't
do that. I just it's so inefficient, Chase, and they
do these. It was my problem with that ladder match

(17:07):
at TLC why I said on Twitter that I loathed
matches like this, because you have this incredible athletic effort
all this time put into orchestrating a match that people love,
and in the end it means nothing. A bunch of
guys take a bunch of spots they looked at as
spot monkeys by management, they get and they kick off
the show with a bang, but nobody really benefits from it.
And yes, Kalisto won an award for it and got

(17:28):
to say Luca Luca, nobody chanted along with them, and
that was wonderful, But otherwise it was a lot for
not other than hey, I like the show better because
of it, And so I just I'm not for wrestlers
putting forth a bunch of effort and I'm not for
huge angles go happening without actually following up on it appropriately.
Am I overreacting or did that feel thrown out there

(17:48):
to you too?

Speaker 4 (17:49):
Oh? It totally did. It's just let's not let our
usual product get in the way of us getting to
be award show writers for the night. That's what I
saw last night from that episode of Raw YEP.

Speaker 1 (18:00):
I did too, all right, I want to go to
break because I said our phone lines weren't full, and
now they are, so we had a lot of people
can let as soon as I said that. So we're
gonna go rapid fire through calls here. I always say
rapid fire and then we give every caller like twenty
seven minutes and then we only get to two calls.
But I'm gonna try to be more rapid fire today
and so we'll go to break when we come back.
We're going right to phone calls and you can talk
about anything you want or otherwise. Jason, Paul and I

(18:23):
are here today to address your topics and talk with
you about what's going on in wrestling. Let's go to
our break and when we come back.

Speaker 5 (18:31):
Need an extra dose of positivity in your wrestling podcasts,
will come join me Alan four l Over in the
Progress Paradise at Pede Torch vip as we mask on
the bright side of wrestling and focus on some of
the great matches and shows from around the world, be
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(18:51):
for wrestlings past and the Paradise too, and we've done
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celebrating the glorious career of Juice and thunder Lighter and
our I was there when shows where our guests will
join me to talk about a classic bout that they
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(19:13):
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you in the Paradise.

Speaker 1 (19:36):
All of that profit for themselves, So again that's pw
torch dot com slash Amazon. All right, let's go back
to the phone lines, or go to the phone lines
and start rolling through calls, and we'll begin with area
code four seven eight and then on deck three oh
one for seven eight. Thanks for calling today. Please state
your name and where you're calling from.

Speaker 6 (19:57):
Derail from Georgia.

Speaker 2 (19:58):
Hey Doro, what have you got for us today?

Speaker 6 (20:00):
Okay? I got three things first, Oh man, ilays bad guys,
wouldn't smile as much, and good guys wouldn't smile as much. EASi,
I thought that was a big thing, not saying shame
as mad and all the smiles and he he laughed.
But that's one thing I took out a row. That's

(20:22):
the only thing I really remember. And my question is
going off for Paul Hayman promo. Do you think with
all the references to fighting, that he's sending up something
to maybe Kevin oys and brought Lesner match down to
nine soon.

Speaker 7 (20:38):
It's just me looking at it.

Speaker 6 (20:40):
Looking hard into it, and I wanted to get y'all
opinion on how did y'all think about Seth Wallace return promo?
And that's it for me.

Speaker 1 (20:50):
Cool, Thanks Bro, good conversations. Jason three points too much smiling.
I think Lesnard, Kevin Owens, all the reference to fighting,
and Seth's speech, you can take any of all of them.

Speaker 4 (21:01):
Yeah, you know, the smiling thing is an issue with Shamus.
I was talking with somebody about that just today, that
it's he's out there trying to be too cute even
when he's beating people down. Now, I don't know if
it's just the way they're positioning him I want Shamus
to be angry he lost that championship and when he
broke kicking people, I wanted to be out of vengeance,

(21:23):
not him smiling as he does it. And I know
it's supposed to be a sadistic smile, but it's not working.
I like straightforward to angry Seamus. I thought Rollins promo
was good. I liked when he paused and he was
in all out set Rollins heel mode, but then he
paused and talked about how it could all be gone.
You know, one wrong movement, it's all gone, and I
thought I kind of left the door open if they

(21:43):
want to play on that theme when they bring him back.
I've gone from thinking he's returning as a baby face
to looking at this depleted heel roster and thinking, at
the very least he comes back as a heel, and
maybe there's a turn somewhere, you know, quickly down the road.
But they need to establish some heels and then finally
Owens lesnar Wait. I think we talk about it every
single week. I don't know where the rumor started. I

(22:06):
still just I'll be surprised if we see that match
at WrestleMania.

Speaker 1 (22:10):
Yeah, I will too, I like that they kept Kevin
Owens strong going over Dolf Ziegler. I liked there was
a picture on Twitter somebody at the building where Kevin
Owens had his head forwards forward down on the top
turn buckle while Kalista was giving his acceptance speech, like,
I can't believe I have to stand out here and
listen to this crap. Well, I'm waiting for a match.
There's things about Kevin Owens and his interaction and how

(22:33):
real he feels that I think is big money, and
I think the way that he wrestles and the husky
body type is something that can work. I do not
see that happening with Brock this quick. I think it
could work this quickly if they start ramping up how
they talk about Kevin Owens and how he plows through people,

(22:54):
and maybe last night was a start of that. I'd
love to see it if they do it right. I
don't want to see Kevin Owens just get fed to
him in a match that doesn't feel important. I think
they really would need to build Upkevin Owens is you know,
give him that promo time to sell the match. I
think he could and I think it could work and
be a good match, But my hunches with you, Jason,
they have other things in mind. Yeah, I liked Stat's

(23:15):
six million dollar man kind of spiel. I will be
rebuilt and I'll be better and stronger and faster and.

Speaker 2 (23:20):
All of that.

Speaker 1 (23:21):
And I mean, he's got to tell himself that. I
just hopen he comes back. He's also more efficient and
less reckless and understands he's a top guy and they
need him healthy and to pick his big high spots
in dangerous spots more carefully and understand. Yes, in a
way it's a fluke, but in a way it's not
with the schedule he's asked to keep and how how
fatigued mentally and physically people are after European travel and
then going in there and having to hit every single

(23:42):
spot at a different time of day than he's used
to wrestling on a different ring. Perhaps I don't even
if that was a different ring or not in Europe,
But I mean, just I want WWE in Seth to
take a look at the fact that this happened, and yeah,
it maybe it was totally a fluke, but maybe it's
a wake up call for everybody to just let's pick
our spots a little more carefully and make sure that
what we're doing is going to count for something. It
goes back to my theme about the Kane kidnapping angle,

(24:04):
about the TLC ladder match. Let's make sure if we
do something, we get the most out of it we
can and it doesn't get downplayed because the wrestlers are
taking extra effort to make up for lousy booking in
a lack of discipline by vincientc Mann in that regard.
All right, up next, we'll keep rolling through three on one.
You're up next, and then after that six O nine,
three on one. Thanks for holding to state your name

(24:25):
and where you're calling from.

Speaker 8 (24:27):
Hi, It's Alan from Washington, VC.

Speaker 2 (24:30):
Hey Alan, thanks for Colin. What have you got for us?

Speaker 8 (24:33):
Thanks for having me? Of course I had two quick
comments and a question. First of all, thank you all
so much for everything you do and for VIP go
VIP love it.

Speaker 2 (24:45):
Thank you.

Speaker 8 (24:48):
My first comment is how happy I am to have
heard from your podcasts about how terrible Raw was this week,
because I you know, it means that uh, Vince is
going to have to uh He's going to keep doing

(25:08):
his thing, and eventually he's going to pay the price
for it. In terms of you know, in terms of
reduced ratings, in terms of reduced revenues, and that's a
that's a good thing because at this point, I mean,
I was such a huge fan, and at this point
I think it would be better for uh w w
E to get really uh in a really bad shape

(25:30):
and maybe even cease to exist. Then for it to
operate the way it does now, I get zero, uh
virtually no redeeming elements from it. So that was good here.
It needs to get a lot worse before it gets better.
My and my my second comment was, you know, just

(25:52):
to really support you know, your your constant team of
of the the need for wrestlers stay in character, uh
you know, on Twitter, on on what have you, and
in fact the whole idea that you know, well, they
can't do that because they're entertainers and the you know,

(26:13):
this isn't real as you you know, you constantly note
you know, from start, opening to closing credits. You know,
the entertainers, actors, they stay in character on their shows.
And I think actually, in some ways entertainers can learn
something from from being more more in character, providing a

(26:37):
more immersive experience, you know, in the case of the
movie Boract about what nine years ago, Shasha Baron Cohen
went around to a lot of different places on television
to I think the COASAC Embassy in Washington, DC, and
a lot of other places playing his character, not in
the movie, not on the TV show, but just constantly

(26:59):
being in character and providing an entertaining, immersive experience for
the people who invested in it. I think that's a
great idea. I think also Will Ferrell when he played
his character on Anchorman, I think he went on one
of the late night talk shows. I recall he also
co anchored a newscast and even newscast and like Fargo,

(27:20):
North Dakota in character and it was fabulous. It's more
entertaining for it. So that's my second comment. I think
there's there's room for more entertainers to do that, and
certainly wrestler should be more constantly in character as well.
And my one question was about SmackDown with Moro Ranalo

(27:42):
coming on, I mean in terms of his having a
chance to really improve the quality of the show. I
think the question is, you know, to what extent has
been recently been involved in producing the show, and in
particular producing the announcers. So thank you very much for
everything you do and looking forward to the answer to
your question.

Speaker 1 (28:02):
Right, Thanks Allen before you get to the smack down
question too, and I'll throw that to Jason. The comment
on staying in character, Yeah, that's definitely a bell that
I ring a lot, and I feel strongly about it
because I feel it's something that's so easy and free
to do that makes wrestling more enjoyable that people who
don't get it and go on Reddit.

Speaker 2 (28:18):
And like, what's wait talking about? Oh, come on, we
all know it's fake.

Speaker 1 (28:21):
I just don't think those people have actually experienced how
much better it is when you're actually given some mistique
in some mystery. Is Kevin Owens really like this guy? Yeah,
it's a lot like the guy in TV. Is it
amped up? Is it a slice of who he is?
Is he still a good dad and good husband? Well
he can be all those things, but still an effective heel.
And you know, so Wade Barrett doesn't have to be
Stu Barrett, who just happens to be in a role

(28:42):
as a wrestler Wayde Barrett right now. But Stuve Bennett
is looking for new acting work after this gig is over.
And he wants everybody now to know that. That's the
impression I get when he puts up Stuve Bennett on Twitter.
I play Wade Barrett as I play a wrestler named
Wade Barrett. Like to put that out there. I just
think undercuts any fun wrestling fans can have, or not any,
but a lot of the fun that wrestling fans have thinking, yeah,

(29:03):
this guy, I bet he's a lot like this in
real life. You know that you want to leave room
for people to believe that, so that they actually care enough,
you know, to boo you if they think that you've
got a big head and you're arrogant and all that stuff.
So I do believe in that. And by the way,
let's say Terry Bradshaw is so burned out in the
NFL he doesn't care anymore. I mean, you know, he
can do it in a sleep. He you know, gets

(29:24):
the notes from an assistant to what to talk about
on the pregame show. He knows how to like, well, okay,
but yeah, And and he laughs uporiously at all this
stupid jocular humor that everybody you know seems to love that.
I just roll my eyes at at the on these
pregame shows and haha, ha, what a great job. But
you know, he's going through the motions. He's not really
feeling it. He's just faking it. And he doesn't even

(29:46):
care that much about the NFL. But he's so well,
you know, he's got such experience at it. He can
go through the motions and he's a personality and a
celebrity and people like his face and it's familiar and oh,
by the way, the pay is great.

Speaker 2 (29:56):
So he sticks around because if it's not that, what's
he gonna do.

Speaker 1 (29:59):
I don't want him to go on Twitter and say
I don't give a crap about the NFL anymore. But
I hope you enjoyed me on the pregame show when
I pretended I did. And so part of what I'm
saying about social media is give us the freaking courtesy
as viewers to think that what's happening on TV is
not just a script you're handed make us believe that
maybe there's something. There's a reason that this character got

(30:22):
chosen for you, there's a reason you're portrayed this way
on TV because you're actually a good guy who likes
to do charitable work, or you're actually a bitter, egotistical.

Speaker 2 (30:31):
Thin skinned asshole.

Speaker 1 (30:32):
I mean, why can't leave us some room to think that,
just like leave me some room to think that John
Stewart actually cares about politics In Lean's Left, I don't
want John Sewart going on their going.

Speaker 2 (30:43):
I don't care about politics.

Speaker 1 (30:44):
I just read the damn script and if I did
think about politics, I generally am more center or center right. No,
he would never do that because the character he plays
on TV has a sense of authenticity that's important for
viewers to connect with. And I don't get why WWE
Wrestler's field and need to go out there and WWE
management and just go out of their way to destroy

(31:05):
the mystique when it's free and easy to do so. Yes,
I agree, and it's you know, the Sasha Baron Cohen
example is an example. Although everybody knows well the guy
who plays, the characters he plays are very different than him,
I'm taking it a step further. Make me believe that
Adrian Adonis when he was in the East West Connection
was a lot like the character he portrayed on the AWA.

(31:26):
I didn't want social media with Adrian talking about something
that completely contradicted his character on and on and on
and so it's a new thing, and it's a new
toy they're playing with, and I think they're playing with
it all wrong. And I do think it's hurting the business.
I don't think fans feel more connected to wrestlers because
they're willing to go on record and go, yep, I'm
nothing like the guy you see on TV. I don't
think you're serving your fans by doing that. Even if

(31:48):
they think, oh, it's wonderful, I get to know the
real person. I think you should convince them the real
person is pretty damn closely connected to what they see
on TV. He pulled that string. There was my spiel. Jason,
your thoughts on or your action do Vince producing SmackDown?

Speaker 2 (32:01):
And really?

Speaker 1 (32:01):
Do you think we'll see significant changes next month Withmorrow
and the new tone Thatmorrow has set us coming.

Speaker 4 (32:08):
I think we will see changes. I'm very curious to
see what they are, what they have in mind with
Vince producing. It doesn't sound like much at all these days. However,
they're moving to USA Network, and so Evince that hasn't
cared much about SmackDown recently, he made have a renewed
interest now that they're moving to USA, and he sees
this as a big deal. So I'm really curious to

(32:30):
see how the backstage dynamic works with that.

Speaker 2 (32:32):
I am too, Jason.

Speaker 1 (32:34):
Let's take a pause here for you to plug your
website in your membership, and then on the other side
of that, we'll keep rolling through calls.

Speaker 4 (32:40):
Yeah, absolutely, my WWE role.

Speaker 1 (32:43):
Thanks for listening to our podcast. Did you know we
also have a website, pwtorch dot com. Daily news updates, editorials,
and my live TV coverage covering Raw Dynamite and SmackDown
and my live pay per view coverage for WWE and AEW.
Create a tab or bookmark, make it a daily stop.
Visit us throughout the day every day to keep up
on breaking news and more. That's pw torch dot com.

Speaker 4 (33:08):
On the main page at Pro Wrestling dot Net.

Speaker 2 (33:11):
Excellent.

Speaker 1 (33:12):
Now we are back live on the program, ready to
take more calls. Actually we were still live right there,
Jason during er plug that was not pre recorded. Let's
go to uh, let's go next to that, I say
was next? Things rearranged here, let's see. Now I'm all
thrown off. Let me look at VIP Express Lane here.
I actually think there's somebody who is ready to jump ahead?

(33:35):
Oh yeah, let's go to six oh nine. Lewis is year.

Speaker 7 (33:41):
Heh yes, this is Lewis from New Jersey.

Speaker 1 (33:43):
Excellent VIP member on the VIP Express lane. Here, glad,
I katcha. What have you got for Jason me today?

Speaker 7 (33:49):
All right, Well, I just want to pretty much just
make a statement and then see what you guys think,
because I'm pretty much psychoanalyzed think just as much as
you do.

Speaker 6 (33:57):
But haven't you.

Speaker 7 (33:57):
Ever noticed that anybody, anybody whoever gets said you know,
or if you want to put it in different terms,
anybody that works a program with the number one you know,
a person in the company. Immediately, yes, they might get
a major hype coming in, but then after that it's
kind of like they become lost in the shuffle. I mean,
I can give you some examples, for example, Tensi Wade Bennett,

(34:23):
who worked the program with Sena. I mean, you had
all these guys, I mean, even in other even with
other people like for example Big Show winning against Paul
Cogan in one of his first matches. But anybody that
works a program with the number one guy normally afterwards
gets lost in the shuffle. And now I'm seeing Kevin Owens.
He's you know, starting to fall within that pack. And

(34:45):
I mean I kind of view things as when you
face the number one guy in a program, I mean
you pretty much. I mean, there's nothing less for the
audience to be able to view anymore. And in addition
to that, it's kind of like the number one guy
should be kind of you know, the light at the
end of the tunnel, kind of like in a movie
you never see, you know, the number one good guy

(35:05):
and the number one bad guy facing until the very end.

Speaker 9 (35:08):
You know.

Speaker 7 (35:08):
So I just want to get your thoughts on that.
I mean, it's just I've never heard you guys, but
you know, talking about that on subject. But I mean
as big of a fan as I am with Kevin Owens,
I mean with knowing Vincent Man's you know, personality and
you know, his perspective on thinking, I don't know, I
kind of just seeing him a little dead in the
water right now, as big of a fan as I

(35:30):
am as his. But I just want to get your
opinions on everything.

Speaker 6 (35:33):
I just said.

Speaker 7 (35:34):
That's all I got.

Speaker 2 (35:34):
Sounds great, Sid, Jason, you want to go first.

Speaker 4 (35:37):
On that, sure, you know, I think Owens is actually
on the upswing. I mean there's a lot to what
you're saying about the main adventures, you know, working with
the top guy and falling off the cliff after that.
But Owens, I mean, he went through that already and
I think he had his run with the Intercontinental Championship.
But I really think the shortage of heels is causing
them to revisit him, and I think they're going to

(35:57):
make him feel like a bigger deal. Like I could
be wrong, but at that kind of what I'm seeing
right now on television, But in general, I think it's
something WWE has struggled with, maybe by design. I think
it may be a product of Vince not taking great
care of the mid card. You'll see a guy going
back to the Hull Cogan days, move up the ladder,
face Hogan, and then fall off that cliff once Hogan

(36:18):
beat him. And I think some guys they've done an
okay job protecting so they're still meaningful, but I don't
think they do a good enough job with that. I
don't think a guy has to just fall off the
cliff like they do. And I bring up the mid
card because that's basically once you've reached that peak, you're
going to kind of shuffle back down into the mid card.
I don't see any reason why they couldn't make more

(36:39):
of an effort to rebuild that person, keep them strong
coming out of a feud with a johncy and a
Hull Cogan back in the day than they do.

Speaker 2 (36:46):
Waigh No, I.

Speaker 1 (36:47):
Agree, and I think that losing to a top guy
is not the end of the line, but actually can
be an impetus for a dramatic reinvigorating.

Speaker 2 (37:00):
What's the word.

Speaker 1 (37:00):
I'm looking for a change in the character that actually
gives them more life. If you make it to the
top and you come up short as a babyface or
a heel, that's part of the journey that you're on.
In WWE, and I've used this term this year a
lot that they don't really think about what's the journey
that each wrestler is on. It's just fil TV time
insert pop culture reference, talk about social media, pat ourselves

(37:21):
on the back for all the charity work we do,
and present matches without promoting them. That's their top six list.
And I don't really think that they sit down like
well done television shows do with storyboards and investments in
each of the characters and go, all right, when this
guy who's filling a need we have against the top
Babyface or Topila on the top feud. When this is done,

(37:43):
we're still going to go We're not going to have
that guy win the title or win the feud. What's
next for him? Let's plan for it. Let's plan seeds
for it. Let's be ready for it. And then when
that lost happens, like we should be excited about Raw
last night to see how to Shamus react, because we
should have been taught by WWE that when a top,
when a wrestler makes it to the top and wins

(38:04):
a title and loses it or gets a title shot
and comes up short, that there's a history in a
pattern to this making that character more interesting. How does
the Babyface react? Sammy's Ain? NXT told that story. Samy's
Ain came up short time after time after time. That
was his journey. That's one thing NXT's fantastic at is
put is assigning journeys to wrestlers, making sure that fans

(38:27):
if you sit down and talk with any of the characters,
Enzo and Casts, whoever it is, you can talk about
the journey.

Speaker 2 (38:32):
Bailey Emma. They're all on journeys and.

Speaker 1 (38:35):
Every week's show that they appear on, and I talked
about it's another chapter in that journey, and we just
don't get that. Kevin Owens is like, Okay, well he
lost two out of three to Sena, Now we'll move
him to this. But there's not really the material, the
material where he reacts as any real athlete would to
a loss and to what's going to happen next. So

(38:55):
I just think it's an area where wwe should be
and can be, and it would be of great benefit
to them to be better in that regard and start
thinking about what is the.

Speaker 2 (39:04):
Journey that these wrestlers are on.

Speaker 1 (39:05):
I mean I would I'd have that up on the
inkboard in the locker room, on the writer's room, in
the wrestler's room. Everything we do on television should be
built around, in spring from the journey that you're on,
and every wrestler in that promotion should know what their
journey is in every match, every commentator and every writer

(39:26):
should be in tune with that and playing into that.
It adds a level of depth and quality to the
program that makes it more immersive, and it makes you
more likely to stick around for three hours and ten
minutes and watch if you care more about the characters
and you feel that the matches they're in matter. So
there's absolutely absolutely room for improvement in that regard, and
other promotions do it well and have done it well,
so it's not some profound thing I'm saying, But there

(39:49):
are times where a ten sie is going to get
fed to Sena or fed to the top guy lose
and just get and just go down in the mix.
And part of that is sometimes when a guy makes
it to the top, they don't draw well, or they
don't step up and cut good promos, or they expose
some of their weaknesses at that level, and it's intentional
and really the right thing to do to bring them
down again. And also I'll close on this, I don't

(40:10):
think the requirement for anybody who makes it to the
main event to face, say a world champion, should be
that there's someone who's going to be a top tier
guy for the next you know, two, three, four, five years.
Sometimes you want to get somebody hot because you have
three months to fill. You want a fresh opponent, but
that opponent's going to get on a hot streak, get
fed to the top guy and lose and go back
to the mid card.

Speaker 2 (40:29):
And that's okay too.

Speaker 1 (40:30):
You just want them to have a good track record
in terms of picking the right people to discard back
to the mid card versus the ones who are worth
investing a really good follow up Angle two, and I
just don't think they have a great track record when it.

Speaker 2 (40:44):
Comes to that.

Speaker 3 (40:51):
Longing for some nostalgia or maybe you want to learn
some wrestling history, don't miss the Nineties Pass cast every
Friday on the PW tour to Daily Cast Feed. Alex
and Patrick will transport you thirty years into the past
by taking you through the Torch issue from that very week.
Follow news from the WWF and WCW and all the

(41:11):
happenings from across the wrestling industry in real time as
The Torch reported it thirty years ago. That's the nineties
Past cast every Friday on the PW Torch Daily Cast Feed.

Speaker 1 (41:31):
All right, let's go to I believe this is VIP
member calling from UH.

Speaker 2 (41:39):
Is this?

Speaker 1 (41:40):
This might be Vince or it might well go ahead
if you heard it, beat state your name and where
you're calling from.

Speaker 4 (41:46):
Be down here?

Speaker 2 (41:47):
Yes?

Speaker 7 (41:49):
All right?

Speaker 10 (41:49):
All right?

Speaker 11 (41:50):
Hus Jason, No.

Speaker 1 (41:57):
Is it Vince. Yeah, yeah, yeah, go ahead, we can
hear you. Go ahead and state your name.

Speaker 7 (42:02):
Okay, okay, yeah, Vin's from Finland.

Speaker 2 (42:05):
Good.

Speaker 1 (42:05):
Yeah, it was either your Jason. I couldn't tell. I
wasn't sure, So go ahead, Vivince. I'm good here from Finland.
I'm glad you have a h I'm glad that you
have a new mountain in your country too.

Speaker 7 (42:15):
Well yeah we try. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (42:23):
Yeah.

Speaker 10 (42:24):
So I was in London last week and I just
wanted to quickly quickly say, Bruce, you.

Speaker 7 (42:29):
Are very wrong. That is that is yeah, totally supporting.

Speaker 4 (42:35):
That is.

Speaker 10 (42:36):
Everybody was together, you know, with Bailey with all the
baby face.

Speaker 7 (42:40):
He doesn't know he usually needs right on the money.

Speaker 10 (42:43):
This time he doesn't know what he's talking about. I
was there, I felt it.

Speaker 2 (42:46):
I'll pass it along. I'm I'm I'm more with you
than agents.

Speaker 10 (42:49):
Yeah yeah, yeah. I wanted to tell you just one
really quick story that happened after the show, Yeah, that
I just found amusing. There was this son happening that
people driving their cars they were honking the.

Speaker 7 (43:05):
New Day like beep beep, beef beef.

Speaker 10 (43:09):
Just you know, for last and then right as we
were crossing the road. I did biggie jiggle and everybody
got it. And you can't do that anywhere else, like
show like that.

Speaker 7 (43:22):
What's just fun? You know that everybody's got it.

Speaker 1 (43:24):
I want no, no, you can do at other places.
You just will get a different response. Dance And I
want I want you next time that you go to
like get a haircut, when they call your name and
I go, all right, Vince, we're ready for you now,
I want you to do the biggie jiggle and I
want you to report back on this show how I'll
react to.

Speaker 10 (43:42):
I will have a friend filming and.

Speaker 1 (43:45):
Actually that could be a YouTube viral sensation is people
doing the biggie jiggle. See it's not the same effect
though when you're not wearing tights. That's what makes it
sort of ew, you know.

Speaker 12 (43:55):
But anyway, yeah, anyway, yeah, well on wait Christmas, Yeah there, yep.

Speaker 7 (44:05):
Absolutely absolutely Okay.

Speaker 10 (44:06):
My actual question about SmackDown Marl Nalo is coming. He's great,
but who's going to be his partner? And please don't
tell me it's going to be Terry Lawler because that's
just gonna.

Speaker 4 (44:16):
Like then I have no insist and that show and
you're worried about Jerry Lawler.

Speaker 7 (44:24):
I'd actually like to see Corey Graigs and Morrow.

Speaker 10 (44:26):
That would be my dream team personally.

Speaker 2 (44:28):
I agree with that. Actually, I would like I would
really like to see that.

Speaker 4 (44:33):
Yeah, no, you'll get no objections here. I mean I also,
if I were WWE, I certainly look at Steve Carino
since his contract with ROH is expiring, but I don't
know how realistic that is. But with what they have,
certainly Graves I think would be a great fit. But wait,
I mean he's come out and said in interviews Marrow
has it he doesn't even know who his sidekicks will be.

Speaker 1 (44:52):
Yes, And I mean Corey Graves would be great. I mean,
I think that'd be a good dynamic. I'm a little
nervous about Moro for various reasons. I think he brings
a lot of attributes, but I think Todd Martin on
The Fix last week talked about some of the things
that could get in the way of this working out
well too, both at are Marrow's own quirks and also
just fitting in with wwbe's production. I could see him
getting beaten down pretty quick. I mean, Joey styles people

(45:14):
loved because he had a really distinct style and came
from an atmosphere where that worked with his with the
viewership and the booking, and the promoter had his back,
and we got to WWA. Evince just hated everything about
Joey styles announcing, and he gave him a desk job.
And so you know, you wonder is that going to
be the case with Marrow where Marl comes in with
a very distinct.

Speaker 2 (45:34):
Style in over the top announcer voice, and.

Speaker 1 (45:38):
Does Vince just go, oh, we don't do that here,
Todd normal and what that was a lame joke and
we don't talk about moves.

Speaker 13 (45:45):
What.

Speaker 1 (45:46):
I don't even know what a Mitchinoka driver is. Morro
stop it, you know. I mean like I could see
him getting beat down within two weeks. And I think
some of the editing would be good, most of it
would be bad, and it could be a disaster. So
I'm kind of nervous about it. But yeah, I think,
I mean, yeah, I think Morrow and I actually would
take more and Lawler over more own Booker. I just
think Booker has been a.

Speaker 2 (46:06):
Bad, bad, bad, bad bad.

Speaker 1 (46:09):
Fit for color commentary. I think it's been produced terribly.
I think his instincts are wrong, and I just think
it's been kind of a disaster. So yeah, Marrow and
Booker would be maybe comedic in a car crash kind
of way, but I'd take Moro and Lawler over that.
My hunches would be moral. Lawer and Booker and Vince
won't have the gumption to just shake things up even more,
even though I think that'd be a good move.

Speaker 4 (46:31):
The first time we hear what I maneuver, you know
we're screwed.

Speaker 1 (46:35):
Yes, yes, any any other observations, Vin, since we got
you online from Takeover London, what was the experience like?

Speaker 7 (46:44):
Oh, it was amazing.

Speaker 10 (46:45):
I was after many I was watching SmackDown in London also,
and this was like.

Speaker 7 (46:51):
Twenty times better.

Speaker 10 (46:52):
And the togetherness maybe it's like the number one thing
that I took away, you know, the audience everybody was
in you innocent.

Speaker 8 (47:00):
It was amazing.

Speaker 10 (47:01):
And Jordan and Gable, those guys never split them up.
They are superstars. They're gonna make a lot of money
if you know, we keep them together. When the Jordan
took his traps down, that's like third angle over.

Speaker 7 (47:15):
That's like those guys are over.

Speaker 1 (47:20):
Excellent. And I assume you've been to a lot of
shows before.

Speaker 2 (47:22):
Did live.

Speaker 1 (47:23):
You know a number of live shows before. Did NXD
you have a different, different field than other shows you've
been to.

Speaker 10 (47:28):
Actually, not too much because yeah, I live in Finland,
it's not really possible, and the UK is usually I've
done it that a couple of times now, I've done
some local shows. But just judging like the two least
times W was in England, I was like, yeah, the
these even though they're not young guys, most of them
are the same age as like a shameless or you know,

(47:50):
pick your guy on the main roster. But these so
called younger guys, they're just more fresh, more interesting, and
and the crowds more behind them, and I guess it's
that journey maybe, like everybody knows where everybody's going, so
it's easy to you know, follow them. So yeah, there
wasn't anybody in the audience going against baby faces. You know,

(48:12):
everybody hated the heels and even Joe, who's like people
like Joe, but they were against him for sin because
you know, that's the story and that's what they told
us to do, so we did it fantastic.

Speaker 2 (48:26):
I'm really glad you called MITZ. Appreciate your support. And yeah,
if you remember sure, Yeah, all right later.

Speaker 1 (48:32):
Excellent, Yeah, appreciate it. All right, let's uh, let's keep
going through calls. With the time we got left on
the show, we're product going to go as long as
usual and and uh, even if we don't get tell
the calls product and go as long as usual with
the holidays coming up here. But let's go to Ryan
next and uh hear from him again. Go ahead, Ryan,
tell us for your conference today and go to your
question of comments.

Speaker 14 (48:51):
Yes, right from hodders Field in England.

Speaker 2 (48:53):
Again, excellent, how you both doing doing great? Little little
little overwhelmed.

Speaker 1 (48:58):
But you know that happens on holiday weeks where I
don't vacation but having a bunch of new obligations added
to the mix.

Speaker 8 (49:05):
Yeah, it's.

Speaker 14 (49:08):
Quite a complicated, complicated question really, and I've I've been
wanting to ask it for a few weeks now, but
now I've got note to talk about on RAW, I
can actually as questions ask the question. So basically with
superstars worldwide, they are known without getting to the WWE.

(49:30):
It's like before like fim Baalow and Samoa Joe. Why
why say, for instance, if it was w C W days,
they probably go straight onto the main roster onto the
w W main and roster. Say, for instance of Jericho
back if Jerricho is in now in now a day
and age, would he have gone to n x T

(49:50):
before coming up to the w W main roster or
would he? Or is it just the way things have
changed now? Say, for instance, if fim Balow was at
w c W, you what do you about to go
through an XT to come up to the main roster?
Back then? I shoulderstand the question I.

Speaker 1 (50:07):
Do, Jason, What do you think would have would have
been required of talent to that level with their experience,
if that if they came about.

Speaker 4 (50:13):
Today, Yeah, I think it would have been a case
by case basis. I think there's some guys that certainly
would have and they may have even you know, been
better off for it. I think Jerdom Jericho's admitted that
it took in a long time to adapt, and I
think he would have been a guy that would have
brought right, you know. I think they were excited to
have him as an acquisition. They were in the middle
of a war. If things were different and they're the

(50:33):
only game in town and he's coming from a T
and A, well, maybe they do if they you know,
if they feel like there's a little bit to to
work on there before they bring him up to the
main roster. I I valor hard to say. I mean,
it's it's so tough to say with each guy, but
I don't think it would just be automatically. Everyone must
go through n XT.

Speaker 1 (50:56):
One way that you can help us sustain our schedule
of putting out podcasts throughout the week is by giving
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(51:18):
moment out for us and do us favor and give
us a five star rating at Apple Podcasts. That helps
us on search returns and helps us grow. And if
you want, you can add a few comments about what
you like about the programs in the comments section. Thank
you so much. Yeah, I think Jericho, probably him specifically,
probably Again, you take into consideration the ww aspect in

(51:41):
Nitro and we acquired him, and it's a big deal
and we got him. That probably would mean they would
skip NXT if they weren't in the midst of a
Monday Night War. But Chris Jericho came about with the
same level of experience he had. I think they would
put him in NXT. I don't know that Jericho. I mean,
I guess you could argue that Jericho's different than Finn
Balor in that he had a lot of experience in
the on US TV and name recognition already. But then

(52:04):
Samoa Joe does He's older than Jericho has trying.

Speaker 4 (52:09):
To think, but they have no respect for t Tona.

Speaker 2 (52:12):
Well, I'm getting to that.

Speaker 1 (52:13):
Yeah, but Samoa Joe from a years of experience standpoint,
is not all that different than Jericho when he arrived
in WWE. I'd have to look at the actual math
from an in ring match standpoint. In world travels, they
both are comparable and high end in that regard, So
it would it does come down to, Yeah, but really,
how many people know about him, you know, compared to
if he was a WW star. But nevertheless, I think

(52:35):
the fact that Finn Balor, Samoa Joe, Sammy Zay people
with considerable indie experience and Seth Rowlins, Dean Ambrose have
gone through NXT. I think really anybody would I'm trying,
who are some examples, Jason, that you think might have
jumped right ahead into the main roster from today's You said,

(52:57):
on a case by case basis, is there an example
of somebody you think would I.

Speaker 4 (53:01):
Basically, if we're going back to looking at like the
Nitro guys you know in w CW talent that came over,
if it were kind of let let's just I guess
I took the question is basically if that were TNA,
you know, if if they're in the middle of a war,
I think obviously the same guys who were brought in
would be brought in. But if they had that real

(53:21):
developmental system at that time and there wasn't a war
going on, you know, Jericho, if he if he didn't
have the name value, certainly he would have a guy
like like there's some of the guys that the Chuck
Plumbos of the world may have benefited from being sent
to NXT for a while. You know. So I'm kind
of looking at it from the older guys who were
you know, the guys who have come and gone. But

(53:43):
what would they have done, I guess is how I
was looking at that question. Yeah, okay, but at part
like the current crop of NXT. No, I none of them,
I mean clearly because I I mean Triple A shalks
about it all the time. He loves giving an example
of Vin valor pulling, you know, talking to him on
one of his h about just Bower actually puts it
out there interviews talking about however, he's just he needed

(54:07):
to learn about camera positioning and things of that nature.
You just never had to worry about that stuff before.
So yeah, I mean I don't obviously, with today's crop,
I don't think anything changes. It's I wish the mojo
would have been called right up. I think he could
have made a splash. And I think they should embrace
the fact that if they don't respect TNA, well cool,
here's this great piece of talent, and we don't think

(54:27):
most people know about him. We can mold him into
whatever we want.

Speaker 2 (54:30):
Yeah, I agree, all right, Ryan, any follow up from.

Speaker 14 (54:33):
You, I just think that if you've got if you've
got it on, you just go straight home.

Speaker 4 (54:41):
You know.

Speaker 1 (54:41):
If if not straight up, I mean, because you can
say we'll go to n XT for two months, you know,
maybe even not be on TV, but just kind of
you know, let us get used to you, you get
used to us and work some spots, shols or something.
Maybe for some guys you do that as Sammy's ain
type or or whatever. But yeah, when you get to
the and even Finn ballor not having worked American TV,

(55:04):
maybe even do go, well, we're going to do four
to six months with him and wait for that right moment.
You know, sometimes you sign a guy and it's not
the right time to bring into the main roster. Tri
Plates talked about that last week on the conference call.
And if that's a case, I mean, yeah, don't rush it.
I mean put him, put him in at NXT and
then wait for that right time. But I don't think
that right time should be three years later. I think
it should be within nine months.

Speaker 7 (55:22):
You know.

Speaker 1 (55:23):
I think somebody of his level you find room for
him within nine months. But you know, if Finn Balor
is someone you want to sign in September and you
don't want to introduce him until May because you just
you have your Wrestmania plans and you don't want him
lost in the mix. I support that, and I don't
think that's offensive. Now, Kurt Angle said, and I talked
about this on the Keller Hotline the last day or
two that the you know, he was asked would he

(55:46):
like to go to UH or would it be willing
to go to NXT, And Kurt's like, yeah, I think
with what I've done, he essentially said that'd be beneath him,
you know, to just be a Smoe Joe type, you know,
with in terms of being an inn ring wrestler there,
Kurt shouldn't be wrestling unless it's a special match that
he's cleared that he's cleared on, you know, by doctors
that he can work. But in terms of like training
guys and stuff, I don't think being an NXTS beneath him.

(56:09):
Of course, and I'm not sure that he meant that,
but somebody of kred Angles level, if he's healthy, he
certainly shouldn't been six months in NXT work in NXT
house shows. He should be saved for a big WrestleMania
match and then retire that kind of thing. Anyway, Ryan,
any closing words, We're gonna wrap up the show here.

Speaker 14 (56:23):
For a couple of yeah, yeah, don't you think that
that people like small Joe though, pushing out young talent
then going into n X two.

Speaker 2 (56:31):
Say that again, I'm sorry, someone do I think.

Speaker 14 (56:33):
What like people like small Joe or already they've already
know the craft, they already know how to work, don't
I think they're pushing out some of the talent from
the next TA coming up, the young blood trying to
get in. You know, I no fair enough.

Speaker 1 (56:49):
I think that Joe, with his experience being on the
NXT roster helps the young guys rather than pushes them out.
I think if somebody is good and they're that there's
going to be room for them on the main roster.
I don't think simo Joe. I mean by definition he
displaces somebody from TV exposure because there would be a match.
If it weren't for his match, someone else would have it.

(57:10):
But I think overall there's a net gain from having
somebody with Joe's experience there to work with, say a
Baron Corbin. I think that's good for Baron Corbyn. I
think Joe's serving an absolutely purpose. But Jason that said
you you don't want NXT to be full of just
overwhelmed with veterans, I think it's you want to have
a good balance. And I think Joe Rhino guest appearance

(57:31):
from Brian Kendrick, that kind of thing is good as
part of the mix, as is having Finn Balor and
Baron Corbin and Bowl Dempsey in the mix with Sammy's ain.
I mean you're gonna have people with different levels of experience.

Speaker 6 (57:44):
For sure.

Speaker 4 (57:44):
Yeah. I think they have a really nice mix.

Speaker 15 (57:46):
Now.

Speaker 4 (57:46):
I mean they bring in James Storm occasionally, and so
there's a you want to have those guys. It's one
thing for the coaches to say something, it's another thing
for you to get in there with the guy who
has that experience that can kind of lead you through
some things in issue things during actual matches.

Speaker 2 (58:02):
Yep, I agree.

Speaker 1 (58:03):
Okay, I do want to get to a couple more
calls before we go to the BP after show, and
we'll go next to three four seven, three for seven.
Thanks rolling, state your name and where you're calling from.
All yep, three for seven.

Speaker 16 (58:19):
Hello, this is Christian, New York and I have two
questions go yep. Okay. The first one has to do
with the USA network and TV ratings. If worst comes
to worse, then the numbers go down during football season
in twenty sixteen. Do you see a scenario or USA
Network will take the TV shows and put them on

(58:39):
let's say Tuesday and Thursdays, and that way they don't
have to worry about competing for ratings with football. And
the second question is about Donald Trump versus Paul Kokin.
Do you think the reason why Vincent Man will never
take Donald Trump out of the Hall of Fame is
not only because of their friendship, but because he has
a lot of He gives w some positive press, while

(59:01):
Hogan at this point in time, he's over sixty and
really doesn't really have any real work anymore to double
except as an extra legend. But Donald Trump has some
value because he does bring w W the company from
no riety in the mainstream world.

Speaker 1 (59:18):
Chris, what a good, very good topic. I've heard this
product before. What do you think Donald Trump has done?
And I'm asking this very objectively, what do you think
he has done that should get him ousted from the
Hall of Fame?

Speaker 16 (59:31):
Prustally, I don't think you've done anything get ousted. I
just read online there was a petition of fans wanting
him out because he made some statements.

Speaker 2 (59:40):
Okay, okay, no fair enough.

Speaker 1 (59:42):
I just wanted to know what we're dealing with in
terms of your point of view and non Claire and
that Donald Trump. The difference is, I think you hit
on it, Chris. At the end, Donald Trump is the
leader right now in national and regional polls to be
the Republican nominee for President of the United States, which
which gives him a forty to fifty something percent chance

(01:00:03):
of being the next leader for the better or for
worse of the free world in the United States's role.
And that is a man who is on the verge
of potentially being in a position of power. That is
totally different than Hulk Hogan in a sad bottomed out
almost a scene out of The Wrestler the movie scenario

(01:00:25):
where he's having sex with his best friend's wife is
being filmed without his knowledge, but the sex was all
consensual with the couple. And he's viewing the N word,
not just saying the word casually in a street thug,
I'm so cool kind of way, but in a those
people are lower forms of human being who I don't
want my daughter dating. And that is different than controversial

(01:00:46):
political views, no matter how vile people find them. Donald
Trump is proudly stating them for public consumption on a
national stage, and he is being accepted by forty some
percent right now of people who identify as Republicans and polls.
That is different than Hulk Hogan not realizing the cameras
are on, which makes it worse because he's saying something
that he might be ashamed and obviously would be ashamed
to say publicly getting caught on tape saying that had

(01:01:11):
to do with a person of a certain race being
so subhuman not worthy of dating his daughter because his
daughter should only date one of those subhumans if they're
rich and famous, but otherwise, please stay away from my daughter.

Speaker 2 (01:01:23):
That was a message.

Speaker 1 (01:01:24):
And he also, by the way, no one talks about it,
but had a similar conversation with his son in.

Speaker 2 (01:01:28):
The jailhouse where he said that if they.

Speaker 1 (01:01:30):
Get reincarnated, hopefully we don't get reincarnated as those people,
and so this was not just a one time thing.
I think there's enough differences, regardless of Trump's power and
acceptance in society where there are two separate cases that
should be judged on entirely separate criteria. I don't think
Hogan getting removed from the Hall of Fame page I

(01:01:51):
don't remember presserly saying Hogan's not in the Hall of
Fame anymore, Jason. I just know that they're not advertising
the fact that he's in it on their website, and
I think there is a difference, and I think it's
a significant different, not just splitting hairs.

Speaker 2 (01:02:01):
They never really sad what well.

Speaker 4 (01:02:04):
I was just saying they haven't removed him. No, and
I had issues with Jesse Ventura's politics. I don't think
he should be removed. I certainly have issues with Ultimate
Warriors politics, and I wasn't a big fan of inducting
him in the first place. But now that he's in,
I'm not going to sit here and say he needs
to be removed. And Trump, I'm certainly not voting for

(01:02:25):
the guy, but I think it's ridiculous to say that
he should be removed from their Hall of Fame. It's
a waste of time anyway. Mance McMahon is friends with
the guy.

Speaker 1 (01:02:34):
I'm not going to I'm going to sound like I'm generalizing,
and I'm not, because I think there's some people out
there who absolutely have looked at what Hogan said and
looked at what Trump has said and see them as
equal enough, and I respect that opinion, actually, because I
think Trump has said some pretty controversial things that I
could see really affecting somebody, whether it has to do

(01:02:57):
with immigration or being a Middle Eastern heritage or of
the Muslim faith, and thinking wow, I'm as offended by
Donald Trump as I would be if I had, well,
whether you're black or not, at the things Hogan said,
I respect that. I think there's enough of a difference
to me that my examination of both situations isn't that

(01:03:18):
Trump should for sure be in the Hall of Fame.
I just think they're different enough in the context and
of how they were said, I judge them differently. But
I can understand somebody saying no, no, Trump should be out,
and I respect that. I mean, I really do get
I see the point of view with somebody's life experience,
their religion, their nationality, their family situation, thinking wow, what

(01:03:39):
Trump did was worse or at least in the same ballpark.
So with that said, I think a lot of people
who want Trump out are Hulk Cogan fanboys. I think
there's a lot of people who are like, well, if
you're going to treat Hokum fairly, then you might as well,
take Trump out because that's hypocritical. And I think there's
some aspect of that too, with people who are so
offended that Hogan was taken off the website when he's
been embroiled in a sex an N word race scandal,

(01:04:00):
that they're so offended that WWE isn't advertising their affiliation
with him and continuing to pay him money to do
nothing basically other than show up at TV now and
then they're so offended by that because they're such believers
in Jholka Mania and the whole marketing myth of that
that they think, well, then they got to they can't
be hypocrites, and they have to do Donald Trump too.
And I don't believe in that rationale. Whatever percent it
is one percent or eighty percent, that's not a good

(01:04:22):
reason to take Trump out because you think Hogan is
treated unfairly, because I think the situations are different enough.

Speaker 4 (01:04:28):
I agree.

Speaker 2 (01:04:29):
Okay, cool.

Speaker 17 (01:04:35):
I'm Kelly Wells, host of PWT Talks NXT, the longest
running NXT podcast Anywhere. Join me along with Nate Limberg,
Bruce Lee, Hazelwood, and special guests live every Tuesday night,
just minutes after NXT, where we cover the good, the bad,
and the ugly on the way to becoming a star
in WWE. Check us out live on YouTube or stream

(01:04:55):
later wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 1 (01:05:06):
Chris, I know you had a first question. It was
long ago. What was your first point?

Speaker 16 (01:05:10):
Oh, the first question is about the USA Network in
TV ratings like it next foot do you do you
see them moving?

Speaker 1 (01:05:20):
I'm just meeting you because now I remember everything I
heard you the first I listened the first time. I
just needed to keep word to remember. Not trying to
be rude, just wanted to keep the show moving, Jason.
If the ratings are bad, I mean Vince McMahon told
me on the phone in the midst of the Monday
Night Wars when he was getting his ass kicked in
a conversation that I had with him that I asked him,
point blank, would you consider moving Monday Night row A Tuesday?
And vincemc mann told me point blank, Wade, We're not

(01:05:42):
afraid to blink first. We're not too proud to blink
first if we have to. It's about survival and I
think that applies today too. If they felt that Monday
Night Football on ESPN was a big enough detriment to
their ratings, then I could see the schedule shifting. Logistically,
it's a chane because do you pretaper on Monday and

(01:06:02):
air Tuesday.

Speaker 2 (01:06:02):
Probably not.

Speaker 1 (01:06:03):
So what do you do on Monday run a money
losing house show on a bad night of the week
when you're still up against Monday night football in a way?
Or do you give the guys a day off but
take away their time at home, because then you either
have to tape smack Down on Wednesday or you have
to tape smack Down out of order. And so I
think there's some other logistics Jason, besides pure TV ratings
that play into it. And by the way, Tuesdays during

(01:06:26):
fall season is no cakewalk either. I Mean it's not
just that it's football.

Speaker 2 (01:06:31):
It's that it's new.

Speaker 1 (01:06:32):
Programming on the networks all fall that you know, fall
in winter, so people get kind of hung up on, oh,
it's football season. That's what takes away from viewership. Part
of it, Jason, is just it's they're not in quote
summer remounds anymore. It's the prime season for TV, so
no matter what night of the week they're on, they're
going to face tougher competition, even if it's Tuesdays.

Speaker 4 (01:06:51):
They would. I think he nailed in the question though,
it's would USA network movement because I think that's what
No matter what Vince McMahon thinks, it's ultimately going to
be USA Network's decision. And you know, as long as
they have the contract with WWE, if they are content
with the show being on Mondays, and then it stays there,
and you know, I mean, I don't know what the
language of the contract reads.

Speaker 11 (01:07:11):
But I.

Speaker 4 (01:07:13):
Also feel like if Push came to show and he
had to, Vince Wood would do it. But boy, would
it be just a major kick to his ego?

Speaker 1 (01:07:20):
Wag oh, I think of what you know, like he said,
it would be about survival. It would be about survival,
all right? Six to one, eure up and we'll wrap
up on that note.

Speaker 2 (01:07:29):
Six on one. State your name and where you're calling from.

Speaker 18 (01:07:32):
Hey, this is Brandon from Mississippi.

Speaker 2 (01:07:34):
Brandon, thanks for Colin. What have you got for us?

Speaker 18 (01:07:37):
My question is about brought Lesner and Roman Reigns. They
give Hill to Roman Reigns because he's got a limited
mood set, can't cut promos, and doesn't deserve what he's got.
There's no more limited mood set. Than Lesner. He's built
his entire run this past year and a half off
one move, and I mean his promos speaks themselves. And

(01:08:00):
his lack of respake for wrestling, the fans, the history,
the business, almost hatred of it, shows that he doesn't
deserve it either. So why does everybody love Lesner and
hate on range?

Speaker 1 (01:08:14):
Great question, Brandon. I saw you email. I was going
to tackle that in the after show if we didn't
get to it on the live show. First of all,
I don't agree everybody thinks differently than you. I've gotten
multiple emails and comments on Twitter from people like you,
so I think you're overstating it that everybody's against you
on this. I think a lot of people go, hey,
wait a second, why does Lesner get a free pass
in not Roman? I did address this at length in
a weight Color hotline a month or two, a month

(01:08:35):
or so ago when the question came up, and I'll
hit some of the hip points. I'm curious what Jason
will say too. My first response is very simply, Roman
reigns is no brock Lessner. There's no comparison. If you
listen to Hayman's promo last night, Brock Lesner brings to
WWE a different set of credentials and unmatched in all
of history, maybe an exception of Kurt Angle because Olympic

(01:08:58):
gold medal. This is pretty damn impressive. Nobody Roman Rings
wash out in the NFL just to put it flat
out and have some wrestling heritage and comes to WWE
and a bunch of wrestlers are told make Roman Rings
look good.

Speaker 2 (01:09:11):
Yeah see, I'm punk testified too.

Speaker 1 (01:09:12):
Romans given Superstar of the Year in twenty fourteen at
the edit twenty fourteen at the slammis in suspect voting
where people looked at that and said, they're shoving him
down our throat. What did he do tour in Superstar
of the Year this year? And he was a green
rookie who hadn't cut a good promo yet. So you
compare that to Brocklesner, the biggest pay per view draw
in all of the pay per view industry in the

(01:09:34):
years leading up to his arrival NC double a heavyweight champion, credentials,
former successful accomplished excellent in ring wrestler for WWE before
travel in nothing else caused him to want to leave
because he hated the travel and good for him.

Speaker 2 (01:09:50):
That's his right.

Speaker 1 (01:09:51):
And brock Lesner cuts good promos. He's vastly underrated, but
he's standing next to Paul Hayman. So Paul Hayman cuts promos.
Go look on YouTube. Brock Lesner has good promos in him.
If you give him some bullet points and tell him
what he's trying to get accomplished in across, he can
do it. But he's with Paul Haman. So Paul's brilliant.

(01:10:13):
He's one of the best promos of all time, the
best promo guy today, So there's no need for Brock
to do that. It fits his character to stand there
and make faces. He's actually really good at making faces.
I think he's one of the best people to stand
next to someone else talking and underline, accentuate and highlight
and enhance what's being said.

Speaker 2 (01:10:29):
That's not easy, and Brock is tone.

Speaker 1 (01:10:32):
Perfect without saying a word at being a great promo
guy standing next to Hayman. So you have usc heavyweight champion,
top drawn pay per view, former headliner who proved himself
with a one hour match against Kurt Angle, great matches
against a lot of other guys ten years earlier, and
NCAA heavyweight champion coming in as a proven draw who
has helped WrestleMania by rates, compared to a rookie NFL

(01:10:55):
flameout who's accomplished almost really nothing. Compared to brock Lesner,
who has a limited move set but is telling Sam
Roberts on a podcast, I just show up and do
what I'm told and hope to get rich as a rookie.
Essentially as a rookie, they're completely different situations. Brock Lesner
gets a crowd response that is a superstar, top tier.

(01:11:16):
We are here to see him crowd response when he
does a limited move set. So at his age, with
his accomplishments, with his financial security, fu money you might
call it. He gets to dictate his schedule, and I
respect the fact that he says it's a business. I
drive a hard bargain. When I show up, I give
you everything I have. But if you want me to
show up every weekend and every Monday for TV, I'm

(01:11:37):
gonna stay home because I don't value money that much.
But if you value me enough, here's here's what I'm
willing to do for X amount of money. Take it
or leave it, or counterpropose. I respect that he's a
guy in his late thirties with an incredible list of accomplishments.
Roman Reigns is not that guy.

Speaker 2 (01:11:53):
He's just not.

Speaker 1 (01:11:54):
So he gets judged on a different standard. He does
because he's a different person at a different place in
his career, with a tiny, tiny smidgeon of a resume
compared to Brock with a tiny smidgeen of accomplishments on
the microphone, not to mention in the ring. So yes,
Roman is judged on a different standard. He needs to
impress people with something other than look at me. I

(01:12:15):
look like a dream top star for Vince mc mann.
I'm cousins with the USO's in the in the Rock,
and Vincent Mann likes my look, so push me to
the top.

Speaker 2 (01:12:24):
Tell me what to do.

Speaker 1 (01:12:25):
That's different than brock Lesner's saying, yeah, I've paid my dues,
I have this resume, here's my price, take it or
leave it. I just think they're completely different circumstances, and
I really do think it's an unfair comparison. And if yeah,
I just it, it doesn't work with me. So Jason,
I went your thoughts, and then I'll go back to
Brandon because I want him to have a chance to
clarify or augment what I said.

Speaker 4 (01:12:45):
Yeah, you know, the lack of move said, we might
be talking about a little bit if everything was clicking
with Rings, you know, we we'd be talking about it, Wes.
It would be one of those things like this is
going great, but it'd be nice if you know, while
this is going well, if he adds some moves to it,
it's not clicking or hadn't been clicking. Especially during the
time that we were really down on the idea of

(01:13:06):
WWE pushing its really throughout twenty fifteen to the extent
that they did. De Malenko was known as the man
of a thousand moves, and he clearly didn't have the
factor that guys like Jaine the Rock Johnson or Hull
Cogan did. And there were people back in the day
that would complain about Hogan's limited move set, but you
could not argue with the fact that it was working

(01:13:26):
and with Rains it wasn't working. And so therefore you're
going to try to figure out why it's not working
and try to come up with ways that he could
improve himself. And I really think it comes down to that.

Speaker 1 (01:13:36):
And I'll also say this Roman is saying, I want
to be a millionaire. I want to be a multimillionaire.
I really want to succeed in this business. Rock Lesner's saying,
I like money. I had an option to go to UFC,
make me an offer I can't refuse, and I'll stay around.
And Lesner had the leverage to do that, and he
brought to the table what he can bring, which is unprecedented.

(01:13:59):
And Roman Reigns is a guy who's saying, I want
you to I want you to push me. I want
to get rich. My bank account isn't a fraction what
I want it to be. I feel like I'm just
getting started. He's should be hungry and improving. And there's
a bunch of other guys who want to spy, and
there's nobody else who can compete with Lesner for the
credentials that he has. So anyway, I mean, I have
strong feelings on that brand, and I laid it out there.

(01:14:20):
I want to get your response to that. Did any
of that make sense or resonator? Do you still kind
of think there's something we're missing in the argument or
question you're proposing.

Speaker 18 (01:14:28):
Well, I get what you're saying about Lesner, and I
should have started by saying I'm not really a Roman
reigns guy in the first place. But I guess I'm
just like from the older school, where it's you know,
look at this guy there all the time. He lives
and he breathes it, and you know this means the
world to him, you know, Macho Man and Rick Flair
and all those kind of guys. And I look at
Lesner and say, you don't care about this, you don't

(01:14:50):
care about us, but he is.

Speaker 1 (01:14:53):
But I would argue Brandon, he does. He delivers every time.
I mean, just the fact that the fact that he's not,
you know, eager to go to autit graph conventions and
interact with fans is more personality trait than not liking wrestling.

Speaker 2 (01:15:04):
I mean, it's just who. He's an introvert.

Speaker 4 (01:15:08):
Brandon. Are you an NFL fan by any chance?

Speaker 6 (01:15:12):
No?

Speaker 4 (01:15:12):
Okay, what sport do you like? Just I guess the
NFL analogy. You want the quarterback who just just like
you said, lives and breathes it. It's everything to him.
But he's just lousy on the field. And meanwhile, the
starter he's out there partying. He doesn't care, but he's

(01:15:35):
getting results. You know, as long as you're winning, you're
going to take the guy who's getting your results and
look past the shortcomings.

Speaker 1 (01:15:41):
And I would say on that analogy too, if you
have a quarterback who shows up when he's required and
gives it as all and it performs as a top
five quarterback in the league, and then in the off season,
other than when required, is obsessed with gardening or cooking
or traveling or going to school for his next career.
And you know, takking, yeah, whatever it is, that's his

(01:16:04):
other passion. But he shows up when it's time and performs.
And by the way, when he's playing, he doesn't know
anything about if he's in the NFC, he doesn't know
anything about what's going on in the AFC other than
when it's time to do a game plan for a
team he's playing. He doesn't know who's in first place
in other divisions. But you know what, he's good. He
likes the money and he does like to win. You know,
he gets he likes to be successful. But it's it's

(01:16:25):
a craft that he's just good at. You know, they're
they're just kind of as a point where you go,
all right, I want that guy, and I think wwe
did that I I don't know that brock is as
special as he is if he's buying into the mcmahonkool
aid of your It's just such an honor for the
McMahon royalty and the WWB brand to welcome you into

(01:16:47):
our backstage area and give you a job so that
you can entertain our fans. I just I think you
need to have a badass rebel who speaks his mind
and isn't buying into that program with but only with
those credentials.

Speaker 2 (01:17:00):
Although that said, it.

Speaker 1 (01:17:01):
Would actually i'd rather I think way Barrett would be
better if if he had a little more brock Lesner.
I think bray Why would be a little better if
you had a little more brock Lessener in him. Yeah,
I don't think you need to be a huge fan
of the sport and in a mark for you know,
getting a tattoo on your neck of when you first
want a title.

Speaker 2 (01:17:16):
To be successful. You can be.

Speaker 1 (01:17:18):
It's not at his qualifier, but I don't think it's required. Brandon,
thanks so much. We got to go because I've got
real limited time for the VIP after show. I appreciate
your call and I think it's a good conversation piece
if you're not a VIP member, pw torch dot com,
slash go VIP and pw torch dot com every day
for tons of news, updates and features in live coverage
and of course download.

Speaker 2 (01:17:38):
Our free app.

Speaker 1 (01:17:39):
Any closing words from you, Jason until we talk to
you next week.

Speaker 4 (01:17:43):
Yes, Merry Christmas, everyone.

Speaker 1 (01:17:45):
Excellent and until next time on behalf Jason Powell. This
is wad Keller signing off. Thanks for downloading today's show.
Take it to the next level with a VIP membership.

(01:18:07):
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(01:18:28):
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Speaker 2 (01:18:51):
All right.

Speaker 1 (01:18:51):
We're now in the VIP after show portion of the
program on the Tuesday, December twenty second PW Torch livecast.
I'm joined by Jason Powell from Progressing dot Net. As usual, Jason,
they announced John Cena returning next week on Raw against.

Speaker 2 (01:19:04):
Alberto Del Rio. I get it, you know, I.

Speaker 1 (01:19:09):
Mean, bringing them back in between the holidays, maybe prop
up that rating a little bit headed into the Big Monday.
But we didn't hear from John Cena. We didn't hear
from Alberto de Rio. To me, I kind of, I
don't know. It feels like kind of a flatway to
bring him back. And there's also this weird thing where
they don't even acknowledge the elephant in the room, which
is where the heck has he been right? And is

(01:19:30):
he coming back for good or just for one match?

Speaker 2 (01:19:32):
Like I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:19:33):
I just I think it got lost in the Slammies.
And to me again, you announced the match, but you
don't promote the match. I'm just I think they're selling
short the Scena do real thing. I mean, can't Sina
send in a video promo? Can Alberto de Rio talk
about I'm going to prove I'm better than John Cena
again and get the Sena fans all worked up. What

(01:19:54):
am I missing here? It seems like this promoting one
on one formula that's worked for decades is now just
completely discarded by WWE out of laziness or comfort zone
or lethargic or incompetence.

Speaker 2 (01:20:08):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:20:09):
It just seems like some really simple easy things they're
not even doing any They're not even trying anymore.

Speaker 12 (01:20:13):
And the way you go back to when they sent
him off and that pin just kind of came out
of nowhere and it wasn't keelish. We didn't know what
Alberto del Rio was coming out of that match. I
assumed he was a baby face because there was nothing
helish about the way he won. And then we got
the big mech America mystery. What is he? All of
a sudden, he's wiz zeb culture. It's like, oh, what
is this guy? And I just thought the entire time

(01:20:37):
if they were going to go back, if he was
going to be a heel, and they knew that the
plan was for seeing it coming back to work with Alberto,
Alberto should have been taken jabs at him along the way,
and you know, leading up to this point didn't have
to be a weekly thing, but it just something on
a consistentemi consistent basis, so that it would leave the
scene of fans waiting to see him get his get

(01:20:59):
CC get his hands on Del Rio. At some point,
they didn't do any of that because they were so
afraid to acknowledge that John Cena was gone. It was like,
you're just supposed to forget that he's not there. And
I really think the reason is that it goes back
to that whole series of promos with The Rock where
he was calling out Rock for boning in via satellite
or however you want to phrase it, and he didn't
want to be accused of the same thing. But yeah,

(01:21:21):
I mean, just looking at last night, ridiculous that we
didn't get something from Del Rio. I just I don't
know why they're doing. I don't know why they're bringing
them back next week. I have in past years, and
I think we've talked about this on the show. This
last week of the year is usually their first week
where they don't have NFL competition. This year they do.
It's just the way the NFL schedule worked out, and

(01:21:43):
so it's not like let's load up that show at
the end of the year. It's the first free one.
I really thought they should have just waited until the
first of the year. I don't know if that's when
the big college football national championship is and they're worried
about that, but still I would have kicked off the
year with Johnson.

Speaker 11 (01:21:56):
I think they're foolish.

Speaker 2 (01:21:57):
I do too.

Speaker 1 (01:21:58):
I think what they should have announced is next week
John Seene is going to be here for a big announcement. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
And then and have people go, well, is he retiring?
Is he changing careers? A week a wild speculation and
then build to it to the top of the third
hour and say, our goal, our strategy this month, this
coming Monday is going to be for the third hours
to do a better rating than the other two. And
one thing we're gonna do is announce John Cena. And

(01:22:19):
by the way, also we're gonna have Kane getting revenge
against bray Wyatt. Kane is back and he wants Bray
one on one and we've you know, it's old school,
you know, the.

Speaker 2 (01:22:30):
Kane argued for.

Speaker 1 (01:22:31):
It, bray Wyatt drag his feet, but we are happy
to announce it has been secure. The promoters have signed
the match and next Monday, Kane's gonna get his hands
on bray White. We'll hear from both of them later
on today. Basic, simple, obvious, better. I don't know how
else to put it. This is non brain surgery. I
just honestly don't know where their head is at when
it comes to this kind of thing. Build stuff up,

(01:22:51):
and then John Cene announces next Monday, I'm here to
get my US title back. I'm here to challenge Alberta
de Rio. Alberto Joe Real throws a fit and says,
where have you been? Why are you number one contender?
And then a babyface authority figure, Oh wait, we don't
have that, says, actually Alberto, John Cena has a rematching
can cash in. He has some other business to tend
to in December. He is back, he has a right

(01:23:12):
for this, and we have booked it for Monday. Deal
Reel throws a fit and says, I need at least
three weeks to prepare for a match like this. I've
been occupied with Seamus and and the League of Nations
and the announcer. The authority figure says, no, no, this
is locked in. It's not something you control, you work
for us, we don't work for you, and deal Reel
then gets seething mad and John Cena celebrates. I just

(01:23:34):
I know, I isn't that better Jason than next week
johnsoner for soberted a.

Speaker 11 (01:23:38):
Real Yeah, absolutely it's better. And I did just look
at him. Not neither one of us are college football guys.
It's not even the first Monday of the year. They're
they're unimposed.

Speaker 12 (01:23:47):
They don't have that game doesn't take place until January elevens,
which I always get to take some big bite out
of the raw numbers. So yeah, they're completely unimposed on
the first Monday of the year, and they easily could
have had seen his return then. And like you say,
having you know, he's a big announcement for next week
or heck even save that for the first rob the year.
I think people just based on what I've heard from

(01:24:07):
you know, reader comments and things and questions in Q
and A, I think people look at that last show
of the year is more holiday week, you know, nonsense,
And it hasn't been lately. I think it was last
year or the year before when they kind of started
to turn that. But I don't think they've convinced everyone
and maybe that's part of their motive here, is to
make it seem like, hey, you know, don't don't skip

(01:24:28):
next week's show. We actually have something for you. But
there's still no excuse for not doing a better job
of promoting it than they did.

Speaker 1 (01:24:34):
Got a question here from Mark he goes oh dot
net member shark Mary, happy holidays to both of you.
Does that offend you Jason that he didn't go religion
specific with his.

Speaker 11 (01:24:44):
No, not at all.

Speaker 12 (01:24:45):
I'm the opposite on that. I'd never understood what the
fuss was. I just there's multiple holidays, even if you're
just even if you're a Christmas guy, and if somebody
says happy Holidays to you, I'd look at it as okay,
there's also Hanukkah, and even if.

Speaker 2 (01:24:59):
You why doesn't that mean I hate Christmas?

Speaker 12 (01:25:02):
No, it means to me, it always meant okay. I'm
not even looking at the honka aspect of it. It just
I took it as happy holidays, you know, basically saying
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year all at once.

Speaker 2 (01:25:12):
That's what I grew up with.

Speaker 11 (01:25:13):
Yeah, yeah, it does not bother me.

Speaker 1 (01:25:15):
Yeah, it doesn't bother me either. I think there's some
manufacturing of issues that don't really exist, that are easy
to understand and draw TV ratings on news channels and
blogs and that kind of right. But I think, you know,
in the big picture, it's probably not something. I mean,
you know, I don't think like we say, you know,
when we talk about small stuff in wrestling, or we
talking about wrestling in general. People, there's bigger issues in
the world. Why are you so passionate about whether Johnson

(01:25:36):
and Alberto do Rio get's proper promotion? My god, there's
people being beheaded in the Middle East And my response
to that is, well, come on, it's an escape and
we talk about it. And then I think the Christmas
Happy Holidays thing is a little bit of kind of
I won't say tongue chet because think there's people who
fel passionate about it. But sometimes it is just well,
you know, what is the best way to respect that
this is a multi multi this country has founded on

(01:25:57):
religious freedom, and should we just you know, make people
uncomfortable by putting the position of always saying Mary Christmas,
so then when they do, they don't believe in the
religion that Christmas is behind. And so let's have a
discussion about it. But I know in my real life experience,
I've never run into anybody who's ever been offended who
was Jewish when I said Merry Christmas, because exactly because
what they say in response is, oh, well, actually I

(01:26:20):
celebrate Hanukkah, but uh, Mary christist to you. And then
I say, oh, yeah, well happy Honkah because I'm I
honestly can't. I mean, it's one of my It's just
a weird thing. I can't tell if somebody's Jewish or not.

Speaker 11 (01:26:30):
No, I'm the same. I didn't know Bill Goldberg was
for the longest time. Wait, I'm so bad with that.
I just had no clue.

Speaker 1 (01:26:35):
And a part of it is how you're brought up.
If I was raised by my dad, I have a
feeling I would have. And there's not a dig on him.
It's just like that's something that's in the conversation with him.
He talks about Israel, he talks about this, he talks
about Jewish relation to the United States.

Speaker 2 (01:26:48):
I think I would know.

Speaker 1 (01:26:49):
My mom is just never I mean, it never came
up with her, and so yeah, yeah, so I just
I don't. It's just I mean, I was like, well,
it's I think I was in college before I like
fully understand like what the whole thing was about. I
just wanted to busy watching sports and pro wrestling and
you know, doing my thing for better or for worse.

Speaker 2 (01:27:08):
That's just me.

Speaker 1 (01:27:08):
So yeah, I can't even tell if somebody's even their
last name. I mean, there's some where I guess I can,
I've learned, but then there's other ones where everyone else
knows and I don't, and I just feel foolish.

Speaker 15 (01:27:17):
So I'm Chris Maitland and I'm justin McClelland we host
Wrestling Coast to Coast, where we scour the wrestling scene
to find the best wrestling from the smallest places.

Speaker 19 (01:27:30):
There are thousands of matches happening every week, so Wrestling
Coast to Coast is here to discover the men and
women who could be big time stars in a few years.

Speaker 13 (01:27:37):
There are plenty of podcasts to voters at w W
and AW, but what's happening in the armories and gymnasiums
local wrestling hotspots around the country.

Speaker 19 (01:27:45):
We can't wait to help you find the true hidden
gems of the wrestling world. Plus, you can hear Chris
complain about bad referees.

Speaker 13 (01:27:51):
And justin bemoaning dog pal Fins.

Speaker 19 (01:27:53):
Don't forget my feudal search to see a blue Thunderbomb
win a match.

Speaker 13 (01:27:57):
How can I like? The name says we cover the
hottest in the promotionsm around the country, so just as
Prestige Action, West Coast Pro, Revolver and Beyond Wrestling.

Speaker 19 (01:28:06):
Actually, Chris, I think we sick pretty much too wrestling.

Speaker 13 (01:28:09):
No, I mean Beyond Wrestling out of Wooster, Oh right.
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Speaker 12 (01:28:35):
I'm still surprised you every time Adam puts out a
new honk song Adam Sandler, when he puts it includes
new names, and I'm like, oh, that person Jewish, I
didn't know.

Speaker 2 (01:28:43):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:28:43):
So, for whatever it's worth, we're just we're just, I
don't know, for dumb ugly Americans, or as Stephen Colbert
humorously says that I'm I don't see race, I don't
see sex, I don't see gender.

Speaker 2 (01:28:52):
I don't see anybody. You could be.

Speaker 1 (01:28:55):
You could be a white person for all I know.
When he's sitting opposite of you know, Will Smith.

Speaker 12 (01:28:58):
Yeah, I just don't know what difference it makes to me.
You know, if a person's proud of then I'm gonna
find out and good for them. And if it's like
they're like me and it's like, well this is I
this is what I believe, and if you don't, that's
cool too, well fine, I'll never understand all the fuss
about all this.

Speaker 1 (01:29:12):
Yes, so thank you shark Mary for that. Yes, he says,
I'm a little confused at the praise. Well, it actually
was because you said Mary Chris was at the end
of live cast and then he said happy holiday. So
I thought I'd go to you into some sort of controversy,
but it turned out we're way too level aheaded and
reasonable for that.

Speaker 12 (01:29:25):
I think it was that whole Will thing when I
said I don't want to preciate for him, and with Will,
I know I don't have to worry about it, but
still I just thought it sneaked it in.

Speaker 1 (01:29:31):
Yes, Yes, absolutely so he says, I'm a little confused
at the praise I saw around the web for the
rating last week, I scored a two point six six
and in the viewership in the third hours was less
than the first. The average for all of twenty fifteen
is a two point sixty five. So they pulled out
Vince who hasn't an on TV for a year, and
war taught the match. Last one was the Unification last
year and broke their average by only one one hundred
the B rating point.

Speaker 2 (01:29:50):
And that's a success. I just don't get it.

Speaker 1 (01:29:53):
As a clarification, I don't think you're Jason, were doing
a lot of the praising, but I saw a lot
of other sites doing so. No I was doing praising,
So I'll throw myself in there, Jason, and I think
they need to be proud, because what really matters is
they were on a huge downward slide. I don't think
you say, well, the average the average winning percentage for
Sports Team X over the last three years is this,
and they just won three of their last six and

(01:30:16):
so they're right at their three year average. Why is
that exciting? Well, because they started the season oh to nine,
so now three and three is a victory. That's kind
of how I look at this rating. They were on
a major slide, but I do I will say in perspective,
that was if popping a rating for them pulling out
a world title change the day after a pay per
view Vince McMahon all of that. If they're popping a

(01:30:37):
two point sixty six, you know it's going to settle
back down again as it did this week, and then
you have to wonder, does this week show driveway even
more people next week or does John Senez return pop
pop the rating back up to two four, two five.
We'll see, but no, I think we I hope we
kept it all in perspective, a half a rating point
jump is huge. That just doesn't happen very often. And
so in Roman had I thought a good four to

(01:30:58):
eight hour stretch. Kept saying it's a good sign, but
it's not. It's not the be all end out. There's
a there's a long road to recovery from where they
had been, but you can't ignore a half a rating
point jump, And you know, with three tenths of a
jump from what the average had been the previous three months.
So I think that's the key. They had been in
such a rapid slide that this showed well, it's not
going lower, it actually as the capability of going higher.

Speaker 12 (01:31:20):
Yeah, it was just it was a successful week for them,
you know, based on comparing to what they've been doing,
no doubt about it.

Speaker 2 (01:31:26):
Yes, I agree with that.

Speaker 1 (01:31:28):
Was there a most surprising Slammy nominee or winner last night?

Speaker 2 (01:31:34):
Jason, I would.

Speaker 11 (01:31:36):
Say that hul Cogan didn't win.

Speaker 12 (01:31:38):
Tell me you just said that, whatever the hell that
award is, But otherwise I would I would, you know,
I guess mildly surprised that Neville won't beat Kevin Owens
for Rising Star. And you know, I mean, just keep
in mind, it's just fans. They're largely voting for baby faces.
But at the same time, if all thevoting is on

(01:32:00):
the up and up, they also voted for Seth Rollins,
and maybe there's a sympathy factor there that wouldn't have
been there had he been healthy and around. They voted
for Nicki Bella, but no one knows what the hell
she is anyway, whether she's heel or babyface.

Speaker 11 (01:32:13):
That's the one. Am I forgetting any that that's the
one that jumped out of me.

Speaker 1 (01:32:16):
Well, I know you wrote about Hunter instinctly.

Speaker 12 (01:32:20):
Yeah, that was cl your match of the year. I
mean most of them are like, okay, okay, okay, and
then triple H against Staying and I'm like that match
that no, the build. You can give the build credit
if you want to come up with a Slammy Award
for best build to a match. They did a good
job of building it up first part of the match,

(01:32:42):
and then you had run in nonsense, and it was like,
this is not match of the year on any list
other than unnecessary run ins.

Speaker 1 (01:32:48):
How about best run ins to save a disaster of
a match from becoming a complete debacle on the biggest
stage of the year.

Speaker 12 (01:32:55):
Oh, I still disagree. I still think they were doing fine.
I know you and Steve Austin have said otherwise. I
think they were doing okay. They just needed a couple
more near falls go home and I would have been
content with it. I was okay with that match. But
there's no way in hell that wasn't Match of the
Year candidate. Yeah, fair enough, Yeah, that's mine. I'm the
guy saying, ah, the match wasn't so bad, and I'm
still going that was not a match of the Year candidate.

(01:33:17):
That was a bunch of writers going, let's kiss Triple
H's ass.

Speaker 1 (01:33:20):
Well, and I don't think that Triple H called an
audible mid match. I think they had planned for the
run ins just in case it was a debacle. And
you're right, I think saying it was a debacle, I mean,
I'm yeah, that's overly dramatic for what was going on
in the ring. Maybe it would have turned into one
had they asked for five more minutes out of stink,
you know, maybe this was a way to go, Well,
let's be safe, this guy hasn't wrestled in a long time.
Let's have the run in and have a bunch of
energy and schmas and posturing and big stars come out

(01:33:43):
to kind of save it. But yeah, I mean, really,
no matter where you are on that scale of where
it was before the run ins Match of the year,
you're right sick a fant writer or Triple H leaning
over someone's shoulder, whatever it is, it's embarrassing. It is
an embarrassment that's up there. Come on, all right, Jason,
we both got to go, So we'll wrap up the
VPP after show. On that note, Merry Christmas, Happy Honkah,

(01:34:03):
Happy holidays to everybody. Yes, everything is. It is a
week to take a deep breath and prepare for all
the New Year's resolutions that you will drop out by
January third or fourth, maybe even January second, and so
you know, put time in for that.

Speaker 11 (01:34:18):
Try to be people, make it to the second people.

Speaker 1 (01:34:21):
Try to be nice to the family members who deserve it,
and try not to be bothered by those who don't.
You know, all that good holiday.

Speaker 11 (01:34:27):
Advice we're doing, I'm doing stay in There is that
option too. Yeah, it's going to be glorious. I'm so
excited about this christ.

Speaker 1 (01:34:36):
Thank you, Jason, Thanks VFP members, gotten en members, and
until next time. Let me off to Jason wait Keller
signing off. Invite you to email the show with feedback
or questions or comments. That email address is Wade Keller
Podcast at pewtorch dot com. That's way Keller Podcast at

(01:35:00):
PW torch dot com. Also welcome your feedback on Twitter.
You can follow us on Twitter at PW torch and
follow me at the Wadekeller That's at PW Torch and
at the Wade Keller.

Speaker 12 (01:35:13):
Searching for more great pro wrestling talk, then join me.
Jason Powell host them the three weekly Pro Wrestling Boom Podcast.
Each week you'll hear the latest news and analysis from
me and my team at Pro Wrestling dot need along
with other pro wrestling media members. Plus, the Pro Wrestling
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the pro wrestling industry. Subscribe and it, Stitcher, Downcast, and

(01:35:35):
all your favorite secondary apps, or visit us directly at
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Speaker 1 (01:35:44):
Thanks for listening to our podcast. Did you know we
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Create a tab or bookmark make it a daily stop.
Visit us throughout the day every day to keep up
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Need an extra dose of positivity in your wrestling podcasts?
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Speaker 1 (01:37:11):
One way that you can help us sustain our schedule
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Thank you so much.

Speaker 20 (01:37:48):
In twenty twelve, NXT transitioned into the developmental system and
ultimately the brand you see today. On the Torch VIP
podcast NXT Eight Years Back, we'll be taking a weekly
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Join Kelly Wells and me Tom Stout from PWT Talks
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PW Torch VIP membership doesn't just give you add free
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