15 YRS AGO: How WWE should utilize Daniel Byran, Lawler's WWE Title match and history getting WWE Title shots, NXT inclusions and exclusions

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Speaker 2 (01:36):
Now.

Speaker 1 (01:37):
PW Torch and Spreaker bring you the Wade Killer Pro
Wrestling podcast fifteen years ago. This week on the PW
tors labcast, Pat McNeil joined me and we talked more
about the Jerry Lawler wwetitle shot on Monday, whether an
entertaining heel is good or bad for business, season four

(01:58):
of NXT and who was included an X excluded and
perhaps why, plus a McNeil Event Center segment, and in
the previously VIP exclusive after show discussion about how to
best push Daniel Bryan, among other subjects. So let's get
to it. This originally livestream down December first, twenty ten,
and it is today's Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast fifteen
years ago flashback for Thursday, December fourth, twenty twenty five.

Speaker 3 (02:20):
Noe oh, Welcome to the PW Torch Live cast for Wednesday,
December one, two thousand and ten. I am Wade Keller,
editor and publisher of the Pro Wrestling Torch newsletter pwtorch
dot com and my daily blog Wadekeller dot com. A

(02:41):
new website, a new blog launched just this week. I'm
joined today, as usual on Wednesdays, by longtime Pro Wrestling
Torching This Letter columnist Pat McNeil. Pat, how's it going today?

Speaker 4 (02:53):
Yes? I am a longtime columnist. How are you people?
And we're coming at you with an hour of wrath
when I'm fun in the You're not careful. You just
might learn something before we get done. So wait before
we start, did you you've been on the VIP forums right? Yes,
there is a poll started by one of the forum
members as to what would be a better alternative name

(03:14):
for John Cena's friend than Juan Sina, and believe it
or not, the winner was my suggestion, the Unknown Soldier,
narrowing narrowly beating out the number two option, Captain Poopy.

Speaker 3 (03:30):
That would uh that that probably would have been my choice. Also,
Cina should actually have to live with.

Speaker 4 (03:36):
That, Captain Poopy.

Speaker 3 (03:39):
Okay, hello, Pat, Yeah, okay, I can. I can just
barely hear you. I don't know how the listeners are doing.
But even when you're talking, so oh, all right, chat
rooms saying they can barely hear you, classic, says Louder,
Pat Louder, And you're very stopped over the phone. So
I don't know. It seems worse than ever, but.

Speaker 4 (03:55):
Well, okay, I'll work on it.

Speaker 3 (03:57):
We'll work with what we can.

Speaker 4 (03:58):
All right.

Speaker 3 (03:59):
Hey, our number on a live cast is six four
six seven nine eight two eight. That's six four six.
We want to take a lot of phone calls. Got
a ton to talk about yesterday show just flew by
pax phone lines throughout the show. Pad What what is
your headline coming out of the weekend? The First and
Torture newsletter, which I put online the digital pdf edition

(04:21):
went up late last night. My choice for the headline
this week was Jerry Lawler getting his first WWE title
shot against the mizz That's how I worded the headline.
It's always kind of a fun choice for me every week,
what's the top story of the week that deserves some
analysis and interpretation in the cover story, I thought that
was a story that jumped out at me, although there
were a number of good choices.

Speaker 4 (04:41):
How about you, Well, I'm gonna have I'm gonna have
to actually write something about how that doesn't true because
that wasn't Lawler's first well actually, no, what that was
Lawler's first ww LEE title shot? Sure, but yeah, not
his first shot at that particular championship.

Speaker 3 (04:58):
Clarify that for us, Lawler.

Speaker 4 (05:00):
Had at least three chances that the WWF title back
in the nineties.

Speaker 3 (05:04):
Oh really okay? Yeah, and under what circumstances.

Speaker 4 (05:08):
In the Arena report in the Torch newsletter.

Speaker 3 (05:11):
Wow wow, See Now I wish I knew that last
night when I wrote the cover story, because I kind
of took took them at their word that Lawler had
actually never had a title shot in WWF for the
equivalent of whatever their top world heavyweight title was.

Speaker 4 (05:23):
In fairness to them, it was not easy to find. Uh,
it was not easy to find them buried in the
buried in the archives.

Speaker 3 (05:31):
But yeah, yeah, I mean only at house shows.

Speaker 4 (05:36):
Yeah, well, no, he had won in a dark match
at a TV taping.

Speaker 3 (05:40):
Also, oh wow, okay, well good good trivia, good trivia.
IM glad you dug that up. Well, I guess WWE,
for whatever reason, is not recognizing that. But anyway, did
what did you think about it? We had a lot
of kind of controversial aspects of uh, or we thought
there were a lot of controversial aspects of it. In
the discussion that we've had on this on the live

(06:00):
cast yesterday, the most controversial thing is should miss have
lasted that long with Laller? I mean, shouldn't Miz in
his prime beat Jerry Lawler well into his fifties? Hopefully?
I'm not even saying, what's you know Jerry's real age?
Right off?

Speaker 4 (06:15):
I had heard it with sixty one, but uh, yeah,
it's not like he's gonna.

Speaker 3 (06:20):
Tell us yeah he has sixty one now, so we'll
take it into uh we'll say early sixties, not well
into his fifties, because sixty one is well into your fifties. Yeah, ok,
fair enough, okay, and because because I know you and
I Pat were well into our twenties, that's right. Yes,
So So anyway, I mean, should do you think it
hurt Miss at all. Who's who's considered kind of a

(06:41):
weak champion to begin with, you know, perception wise. I
don't think in any other way, but perception wise in
the ring, there's some doubters. Is it good to have
Miss's first title match against the sixty one year old
on short notice and actually look like he could have
lost to him relatively fair and square.

Speaker 4 (06:57):
Yeah, that's a problem.

Speaker 3 (06:59):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (07:00):
You know, Jerry Lawler, for for as good as he
has been over the years, not known as the master
of TLC Man.

Speaker 3 (07:06):
No. I mean he's been in some garbage sprawls before.
He kind of, you know, half invented the concession stand brawl.
I know he's fought Frankenstein a couple of times, but
I'm sorry Frankenstein's monster. But I I don't Yeah, I
don't know that he's ever climbed the ladder in the
ring before. Maybe I don't know, has he pat do
you remember?

Speaker 4 (07:25):
I you know, I'm not ringing a bell on Jerry
Lawler ladder matches.

Speaker 5 (07:29):
I mean he's done.

Speaker 4 (07:29):
Cage matches where he's climbed the cage.

Speaker 6 (07:31):
So yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a uh tremendous question.

Speaker 3 (07:39):
So I guess looking at what happened, I mean, where
do you think they are going to go with Michael
Cole and Jerry Lawler. Michael Cole, by the way, this
is new since last night's show. They by the way,
Tyrone Doddley in the chat room, Pat wants proof that
Lawler had a WS title shot before Monday proof.

Speaker 4 (07:56):
Oh okay, all right, well okay, here's your go to
the history of WWE dot com and start looking at
their results for nineteen ninety six and you'll find them.

Speaker 3 (08:06):
All right, very good. There we go. So as far
as what the news that happened last night is on
the internet only ww dot com broadcast of NXT. Michael
Cole introduced the show and said that he doesn't know
why he did what he did last night, being Monday
night and costure Lata the title, but he's gonna have
a private talk with Jerry Lawler. And that's about all

(08:30):
that he said about it. I did you see it, Pat,
or just read about it?

Speaker 4 (08:34):
Just read about it, because you know any other way
would involve me watching NXT.

Speaker 3 (08:39):
Well, he went on the rest of the show to
rip on NXT as.

Speaker 4 (08:42):
Us they have no idea what they're gonna do.

Speaker 3 (08:44):
Yet, Okay, because because I look at this and I'm
just like, can Michael can Jerry Lawler really announced with
Michael Cole When they're saying storyline wise, Michael Cole might
have cost Jerry Lawler a world title in WWE wwet title.
I mean to me, that's just that has to be
resolved in a big way that can't be kind of

(09:05):
blowing off, like I don't think it makes sense on
Raw Monday. And if Jerry Lawler look at Michael Cole
and go, I don't forgive you for what you did
last week. I don't know that I ever will. But
I'm a professional and I will do my job. But
don't expect us to be friends anymore. I don't think
that's enough. I think this has to be a major
turning point in the Michael Cole character development since the
whole obsession with miss and Daniel Brian started.

Speaker 4 (09:25):
I think that the segment, whatever it is Monday, has
to end with Jerry Lawler pile driving Michael Cole in
the middle of the ring. And that's really the only
way it can end. Because Yea, I heard you guys
talking about I heard you guys talking about the possibility,
but Lawler versus Cole matchup the pay per view, and.

Speaker 6 (09:43):
Lord knows, I don't want to see that, right, No, no,
but I don't think Michael Cole can be in the
booth anymore as a play by playan out there as
the guy who's supposed to be neutral.

Speaker 3 (09:58):
I agree, I mean, well, I think that.

Speaker 4 (10:00):
I mean, even if they don't want to bring back
Jim Ross, they have to throw Josh Matthews or Joey
Styles or somebody in there.

Speaker 3 (10:07):
Yeah, or who's the new guy. There's a new guy
who in Superstars now?

Speaker 4 (10:10):
Yes, Scott Stanford. He perhaps is not the best choice.
Because I caught Superstars last week. It was they sent
Cimpunk out there with him. This was uh, this is
the Four Punks first edition of Raw, and Punk ran
over him like a truck. It was not pretty.

Speaker 1 (10:28):
Anytime you're watching WWE Raw or SmackDown or aw Dynamite
in particular, send us an email if you've got thoughts
on the show or a topic you want us to
address or a question for us. Wade Keller Podcast at
pwtorch dot com. Wadekeller Podcast at petw torch dot com.
If there's anything else, going on in pro wrestling that
you want us to address on our main podcast during

(10:49):
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toors dot com.

Speaker 3 (11:07):
One thing WWE. There's many things WWE has been good
at over the years. One thing they have not been
good at is scouting for good wrestling announcers. It's just culturally,
they just don't know where to look because they look
to you know, Sean Mooney who was an anchor, Craig
to George, who I think was a Nickelodeon host. I'm

(11:30):
making that up, but he might as well have been
or home shopping network type people. You know, Kevin Kelly
looked like he was right off the Home shopping network.
You don't get people who actually come across and I
know this sense shivers up and down the spine of
the McMahon family, but you never get the sense from
any wrestling announcer that they have hired other than Josh Matthews,
and it's counted against him that they like wrestling and

(11:52):
that they have a passion for calling the sport. You
really get the sense that these are people who are
trained and broadcasting and know how to speak, and they
came from some other genre and they look the part,
and they don't create waves. And I just think the
role of the wrestling announcer is too important to not
have somebody who understands and likes and shares an enthusiasm
for Yes, as the impunk would say pro wrestling, and

(12:13):
then he'd be scolded for us.

Speaker 5 (12:16):
You know.

Speaker 4 (12:17):
No, I mean, you're right, but they don't think that way.
And I don't really need them to be, you know,
the biggest wrestling fan of all time. I need them
to know enough about wrestling that they can call it.
And it's not something you know, it's not something that
the first timer can do. I I want Scott to
call minor league baseball when I was looking for a
sports station, Minor league baseball or baseball in general. That's

(12:38):
kind of easy to announce, especially if you're on television.
It sort of, you know, sort of works itself out.
Football is difficult to announce because and so it's basketball
because it moves at a faster pace. But I mean,
there are there are specific things with wrestling that you
don't find in any other sport. And I mean, if
you've ever seen any of the stuff on WWE Classics,

(13:00):
whether they have the sportscast thro anouncers from the early
eighties trying to call matches, it's just you know, or
or if you look at any of the old AWA
stuff that Rod Trontguard did, you can just tell the difference.

Speaker 3 (13:12):
Yeah, And I think it does help to have watched
wrestling over the years because there's it's sort of like,
I don't I wasn't a comic book guy, you know,
and and I know people who are, and I've heard
conversations about it and read them on message boards, and
I would no matter how skilled I was. And it's
this isn't going to be a perfect analogy, but no

(13:33):
matter how skilled I was, I couldn't just start reading
comic books and possibly speak in the voice that would
be necessary for people who followed comic books their whole
life to have any respect for what I would say.
Now they're on play by playman in comic books. But
I use that because I think for a wrestling as
a comparison to comic books in a lot of ways,
and that there's a culture, there's an internal logic, there's rules,
there's a history, there's something that happens now oftentimes is

(13:57):
very much tied to something that happened, not just weeks
or months to go, but sometimes years, and sometimes there's
references to things that are decades ago. And I think
a good wrestling announcer just naturally can walk onto a
show and call it and be comfortable in that position.
And it's one of the things that makes CM punk.
For his early flaws and for the early you know,
he's trying to work out who who's going to be

(14:18):
in that announced booth or at the announced table more
better put, there's something about him or you know he's
a fan, and you know he knows his history, and
there's a comfort level. He doesn't walk around gingerly hoping
he's not going to screw up Michael Cole. When he
talks about something about Japan or something about Madison Square
Garden on Saturday nights when they didn't run the shows
on Saturday nights during the time he was talking about it,

(14:39):
you can tell he's faking it. Even there's times, even
though Mike Goldberg's been doing it forever, that you can
tell Mike Goldberg somebody in UFC who kind of jumped
around from sport to sport. He was a wild announcer.
He does college sports. It's like us sees another job
for him. And Joe Rogan is the guy who lives,
eats fleets and breathe it. And I think in pro wrestling,
you need to have somebody at that table like a

(15:00):
Jim Ross, a CM punk in their prime, the good
color commentators when they're really hitting their stride, they know
the sport, they've been in the sport. I think fans
noticed that, and I think it's such an underrated aspect
of what makes a show not just enjoyable to watch,
but makes people pay money to see it. And I
think when we look at as Bruce Mitchell called it
the biggest story of the year this year, which is

(15:22):
the devastation to WWE's pay per views, primarily when we
look at that, I don't think it's entirely disconnected from
the disappearance of Jim Ross from the broadcast booth. Making
people get swept up in the emotion of needing to
be there on Sunday to watch this happen live. And
Michael Cole is good. He's not bad anymore, he's good.
But you need to be exceptional to sell a fifty

(15:44):
five dollars pay per view when there's thirteen of them
a year. And Jim Ross was exceptional, and Michael Cole
riffing on or going nuts over miss and Daniel Bryant,
isn't I just think it's so important.

Speaker 4 (15:57):
Well yeah, I mean, I you know, talk about this before.
I think one of the smartest things they could do
is to just say, hey, we know it's tough times
out there. We're going to drop the price of the
HD pay per views the same price as the regular
pay per views, and in that way get people, you know,
hooked on the idea that they want to see wrestling
in pay per view in HD.

Speaker 3 (16:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (16:20):
Well, listen, I mean, there's the price range, there's Jim Ross,
and there's the fact that you know that a lot
of the restlers they've relied upon are either injured or
retired or just missing. Yeah, and they have not you know,
and they have not done a good job of building
up to the building up their replacements.

Speaker 3 (16:37):
Yeah, and I mean I think the I think the
change in the talent roster is is maybe reason number
thirteen on the things that have caused pay per views
to go down, and I think it's significant. I just
think there's so many things. It's been kind of a
perfect storm. And I ran down the list, I think
on yesterday's show, or maybe it was in the VIP
after show with Jason, but it yet sometimes yesterday with
Jason ran down. You know, it just rattled up a

(16:57):
dozens incs that that have gone in the direction that
would hurt Awa. Awa just looked at the message board
and started speaking it that would hurt pay per view
by rates. And I don't think talent is that decimated.
I mean, I do think Jeff Hardy was a draw.
I do think Sean Michaels was a draw. I do
think to an extent, Triple H and Undertaker on every
show would add a level of star power. And but

(17:19):
I don't I think they've done a better job than
sometimes they get credit for building up some of these
new stars. I do think it's it's price point and frequency.
Although all everything that I ran on yesterday that I
won't repeat.

Speaker 4 (17:30):
Well, and you know, part of this is and we
could talk about this later, is the almost TNA like
booking in WWE, where, for example, this week you build
up a TLC match by showing the TLC match on
Raw for free, and you know, this Friday you build
up the pay perview match between Edge and Kain by

(17:51):
having Edgrien Kaine rustling non title match on backdown.

Speaker 3 (17:55):
Yep, no, that's it's definitely worthy of criticism. I'll say
that I think giving away a TLC match between Mis
and Lawler seemed quite arbitrary. I mean, why is it
a TLC match? It doesn't. It's just that that's kind
of the crutch of the anonymous GM is the anonymous
GM just gets to make stuff up and do stuff
without having any kind of needing to defend himself looking

(18:19):
at the camera. There's no there's no accountability that said.
You know, it is Jerry Lawler at age sixty one,
and we can say, well, the TLC match doesn't really
fit his style, but in a sense it did give
him some shortcuts to work with chair shots to the
back of miz you know, tables at ringside and being
slid in and out of the ring and having to
climb the ladder rather than get pinned, and that'd be
a more an easier way for Michael Cole to interfere.

(18:41):
It worked to that degree, But I don't know that
what we saw is necessarily good selling point for the
concept of a TLC pay per view. I do like
the idea of if you're gonna do a main event
on ROD, don't have it be the same as a
pay per view. And Miss and Lawlor is not a
pay per view main event. So on the plus side,
and this is in contrast to Edge Kane on Friday,
at least they didn't give away the actual pay per

(19:03):
view main events.

Speaker 4 (19:06):
Well, actually, let's let's talk about that for a bit.
For a bit. Uh, Randy Orton has been pulled from
this weekend's house shows, and Randy Orton was off TV
on Monday. There's a we might not know, they might
not know whose wrestling is with the pay per view.

Speaker 3 (19:20):
I know there's something. I mean, it's up in the
air right now. What's going on? Have have you garnered
any information on what might be up other than what
we know what you just said?

Speaker 4 (19:33):
No, I I was too lazy, so I put on it.

Speaker 3 (19:37):
Well, I think it's a pretty fresh story.

Speaker 4 (19:39):
I mean so yeah, I mean, well, okay, here's what
I can tell you. You know, they're during the They're not
They're doing the A Brand and the B Brand house
shows this weekend. Randy Horton was advertised for the A
House shows He's now which which were Las Vegas and Ontario, California,
believe it or not, and he's been He's not on

(20:00):
those shows, and they have moved Edge over to that
show to take on to take on Miz and Wade
Barrett in the main event of those shows.

Speaker 3 (20:09):
Yeah, so you have that.

Speaker 4 (20:11):
And by the way, Edge is being replaced on the
D shows by Daniel Bryan, which means that there's a
very good opportunity that Daniel Brian will be headlining the
house shows this weekend.

Speaker 3 (20:20):
Hey, I'm for that. I don't think many fans are.
Some fans won't like it, but I think most fans
will appreciate it.

Speaker 4 (20:26):
Yes, but if he's headlining it, the heel that he'd
be headlining against would be Kane.

Speaker 3 (20:31):
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a little scary.

Speaker 1 (20:37):
If you missed it earlier. Just a reminder, we're running
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(20:57):
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Speaker 3 (21:10):
All right, don let's go to the phone lines and
let the callers lead the way here for the last
forty two forty three minutes of the show. If you
want to get on on the phone lines, the number
is six four six seven to one nine two eight
six four six seven two eight. Also, you can email
us at PW Torchlive Cast at gmail dot com and

(21:30):
we can answer your question live here on the show.
Or if you're listening to us like most of you do,
on delay through iTunes or at blog talk radio, you
can send us a question. We'll answer it, perhaps on
a future edition of the Live cast and even occasionally
on the VIP after show. Let's go to our first
call area code five five nine. Thanks for calling. Please
state your name and where you're from.

Speaker 7 (21:51):
Hey, guys, is Steve from Kelly.

Speaker 3 (21:53):
He Steve from Kelly. Thanks for calling. What's on your mind?

Speaker 8 (21:56):
Hey?

Speaker 7 (21:57):
I noticed on Monday that Dell real where's Nike knee pads?
And I was wondering why more wrestlers don't go out
and get name brand equipment and get possibly sponsored or
start endorsing the stuff. Would that be against some kind
of rules that has or do they have the freedom
to go out and get sponsors and make endorsements on

(22:18):
their own?

Speaker 3 (22:20):
A good question, Pat, Do you want to tackle that first?

Speaker 4 (22:22):
Yeah, I don't know that there's a huge market in
equipment makers winning wrestlers to sponsor them right now, and
that would be my that would be my guest.

Speaker 3 (22:34):
Yeah. You know, you look at USC and you see
the fighters are plastered with a lot of U and
in boxing too, a lot of billboards all over their shorts.
And then they you know, during a post match interview,
post fight interview, they put the T shirt on in
the hat, you know, because their sponsors helping pay for
their training. I think WWE has not sold space on
their rank. I think part of it, Pat is what
you said, there's not a high demand for it. I

(22:55):
know back in the early Clash of the Champions days,
it stands out because it wasn't done much over the years.
I remember Jim Ross is a w W announcer, making
reference to Cooor's beer and uh Coors Light, and they
would have they have actually had I believe, had the
Coors logo on the on the ring or the turnbuckles
or something like that.

Speaker 4 (23:14):
Yes, and you would have Jim Ross saying things like, oh,
if the turn buckle.

Speaker 3 (23:22):
And you say, I, I can't wait. I can't wait
to have a Coors Light after the show either.

Speaker 4 (23:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (23:28):
Yeah, so it has.

Speaker 4 (23:30):
I think at one point they had us shoes on
the paint them on their logo, paint them on the
ring posts.

Speaker 3 (23:38):
Oh yeah, yeah. That was the Ruse Shoes campaign with
ww That was a strange match. So it's been done
but very sparingly over the years, even on the ring itself,
much less the wrestlers now. I don't know that there's
any endorsement going on right now. WWE has a pretty
strict policy, as I think they should in terms of
not having wrestlers go into business for themselves. And I

(24:00):
mean that literally in the sense that they start selling
parts of their ring jerseys the ring or ring jackets
or or tights or boots. They want a clean look
and they don't want a conflict with sponsors. They don't
want to have a wrestler wearing wearing, you know, a
big Nike logo if Adidas is one of their major
sponsors on their show. But I don't think it's really
a problem because it's pet that. I don't think a

(24:21):
lot of a lot of sponsors are are exactly contacting
wrestlers or wrestlers agents such as they exist saying you know,
we want to buy we want our logo on the
butt of you know, Batista. I just don't think that's
happened too often. But no, WWE, even though they're independent contractors,
doesn't let wrestlers do that. And it's just not something
that's part of the culture, not part.

Speaker 4 (24:43):
Of their culture. But yeah, I mean, like you said,
you see it in a lot of other places.

Speaker 3 (24:48):
Yeah, yeah, So I mean, you know, hey, Donna Goldsmith
in the last conference call is says they're trying to
cut corners everywhere. I wrote about this in my at
wayekeller dot com this afternoon, and in fact on my
Wednesday Random Stuff column, where I wrote about a variety
of subjects. One of them was, you know, it's kind
of been decreased gradually over time, but we don't see

(25:09):
Pyro at the start of raws often. And I can't
remember as quote and how much that cost once. I
think it was tens of thousands of dollars for the
Pyro shows that they would do. At every show, I mean,
it was expensive. I wish I remember the exact number.
But if somebody was experienced in that area and they've
really cut back on that, and I don't know, and
Pat with your legal background, maybe you know if they
have to pay per every time that they play the entrant,

(25:31):
the intro music for the show, you know, because it's
real live music or you know, actual real artist music
that they play, like you know Green Day on SmackDown
and Nickelback on Raw. I don't know if they have
to pay a certain fee every time they do it.
But you know her quote was that we've cut well
I'm paraphrasing, but we've cut every corner we possibly can

(25:54):
at this point, there's not many more corners to cut,
so you know, you start wondering if that's happening, will
they I to figure out a way to incorporate advertising
into either you know, ring gear like USC fighters and boxers,
or even the ring itself, like W's w tried in
the early nineties.

Speaker 4 (26:08):
Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised to see him do either.
I mean, and one of the main reason that the
wrestlers don't wear apparel from Nike or or Didas or
a flection for that matter, is that they're wearing their
own apparel from you know, made by WWE, sold by WWE,
and you know, and and I mean that that is a.

Speaker 3 (26:29):
Revenue stream there, Yes, especially when it comes to you know,
when they're marketing their own T shirts. I mean, there's
no doubt that that's that's a merchandise seller. But you know,
once once the T shirt comes off, you could imagine,
you know, a Nike logo on knee pads and and
and you know, boots or something like that. But wrestlers
don't wear much. I mean, there's not a lot of
places to put logos either. In WWE does make a

(26:50):
lot of money for merchandise and they like that clean
look anyway of Steve, any any follow up question from you.

Speaker 7 (26:57):
But so the fact that del Reo has the Nike
knee pads might be coincidence.

Speaker 3 (27:01):
I'm thinking it is, but you've You've given me something
to ask around about. I think it probably is. They're
the ones that he feels comfortable wearing, and it happens
to have a Nike logo on him. If it's a
start of something new, uh that if it started something
that they're incorporating into the show, I will remember that
you're the one who brought it to our attention.

Speaker 7 (27:20):
All right, guys, I'll listen to the rest of the show.

Speaker 3 (27:22):
Cool. I appreciate it.

Speaker 4 (27:23):
Thanks.

Speaker 3 (27:24):
Our number here is six four six nine two eight.
We do not have a long wait. Only one other
person on old right now, let's go to that caller
and go to Eric code nine one oh. Thanks for calling.
Please stay your name and where you're from. Hello, nine
one oh? Come in.

Speaker 4 (27:39):
I don't know you're.

Speaker 3 (27:40):
Even softer than Pat McNeil on the phone. All right,
We're gonna uh hang up on you, and if you
want to call back, please do We do have another
caller already that was the shortest way time ever, by
the way, nine three one. You are on the show immediately.
Thanks for calling. Please stay your name and where you're from.

Speaker 4 (27:57):
Hey, it's the information.

Speaker 3 (27:58):
Hey, Yes, what's on your mind today?

Speaker 8 (28:02):
Well, I just.

Speaker 2 (28:03):
Wanted to get your thoughts on NXD season four.

Speaker 3 (28:08):
Well, you're asking the wrong person because I haven't watched
in weeks because it made me too depressed.

Speaker 4 (28:13):
One can't wait.

Speaker 3 (28:15):
Oh you're talking about the net. Well I'm sorry. Season
three just ended, right, that's about for Oh, good, good good.
Well that I'm a little more that I'm a little
bit more excited about. So I think i'll actually watch four.
But go ahead, Pat, you can start on it.

Speaker 4 (28:30):
Well, you know, from what I've seen, it doesn't it
looks like none of the guys who are being crouded
as as the better you know, as the better prospects
in FCW are the ones that are that are being
sent up here.

Speaker 3 (28:44):
That's a good point. Let's just go ahead and throw
out the names because they just announced this. Our Truth
will be the pro for Johnny Curtis, Chris Masters will
be the pro for Byron Sacks, Saxon, Teddy Biassi will
be the pro for Brodius Clay Dolph Ziggler will be
the pro for Jacob Novak, Daniel Brin will be the
pro for Derek Bateman, and Alberto Dorio will be the

(29:05):
pro for Connor O'Brien. Curtison Bateman were recently the scw
TA team champions before dropping to Xavier Woods formerly Consequences
Creed and West Briscoe earlier this month. Conspicuous by their
absence Seth Rollins formerly Tyler Black from Ring of Honor.
We were looking forward to maybe him being in the season,
and also Richie Steamboat and Brett DIBIASI I wonder with

(29:26):
Richie if they just almost think he might be name
value wise and and just aptitude wise, maybe above being
on n x T pat your you're any follow up
on that.

Speaker 4 (29:37):
Yeah, that's the possibility to say. You know, and Mason Ryan,
who's the guy down there that they're probably the the
highest on just because of his size. Yeah, I think
that these guys are being chosen, but you know, because
they're they're not guys, They're guys who they think can
use some build up and don't remember, this show is
not going to be seen by that many people in

(29:58):
the US. I mean, I guess most of the places
that actually air there are you know, are Canada and
what Great Britain, a couple others, a couple others countries.

Speaker 3 (30:08):
Yeah, I mean, it's essentially an internet show for the
United Well, it is an internet show for the United States.
Patt either Yeah, I'm here, Oh, okay, ye try Yeah.

Speaker 4 (30:18):
Brodius Clay that's the guy that they have actually used
them on House show. He's one of those guys that
they that they keep you know, that they keep trying.
They're still gonna keep trying with him because of the
way he looks that. I don't know that he hasn't.
I mean, we'll find out for sure in a couple
of weeks.

Speaker 3 (30:37):
Yeah, I'm trying to think who Brodius Clay looks most like.
I don't know, facially Prince Albert mixed with uh, there's
a usc fighter. I can't think. Well anyway, yeah, anyway, Yeah,
so I don't know. I mean, well, you know, it's

(30:57):
since it is kind of internet only, and I think
they're kind of just doing it to do it at
this point. It's not a super high priority. I don't
even know that they want to bring the guys that
they're highest on to the point, you know, onto a
show where it's treated as a joke. Now, hopefully this
running gag where the announcers even rip on the show
and talk about how horrible it is. Well, and with

(31:18):
season four, because it's not women, that shouldn't be a
good reason, but maybe it's going to be reason enough
for them to maybe take the next season a little
more seriously, because it really, it really became hard for
me to watch.

Speaker 9 (31:33):
Searching for more great pro wrestling talk, then join me
Jason Powell, host of the three weekly Pro Wrestling Boom Podcast.
Each week you'll hear the latest news and analysis for
me and my team at Pro Wrestling dot need along
with other pro wrestling media members. Plus, the Pro Wrestling
Boom podcast features long form interviews with notable names in
the pro wrestling industry. Subscribe and iTunes, Stitcher, Downcast, and

(31:55):
all your favorite secondary apps, or visit us directly at
PW boom dot com. Once again, that's PW boom dot com.

Speaker 4 (32:06):
I think the shows them hard for everybody to watch,
including the guys in the production truck.

Speaker 3 (32:11):
Yeah, I just I mean, I just think when if
you're vincement Mann and you've got a product that is
put on that you think it makes sense to have
the announcers openly make fun of it. It's it's time
to change that product. I mean, I just, I mean,
that's that's now you're talking about being so rich and
caring so little that you just it's just you're just

(32:31):
out there having drunk fun and and frankly, WWE is
not in that financial position at this point to do that.
I mean, they've still got a healthy cash reserve, but
at the pace they're going and the dividends that they're paying,
this is not going to be as as deep and
healthy of a company as it once was. And you
know when they're cutting back on a lot of things
they're cutting back on, you know, including something subtle but visible,

(32:53):
but but but tangible, which is all the pyro and
how often they play these licensed songs on shows.

Speaker 4 (32:58):
I mean, there's a quick solution to that way which
would which would help their cash reserves, which is the
quit sending all their money out in quarterly dividends to
the main shareholders, which are the McMahon family.

Speaker 3 (33:12):
I know, they are taking a lot of money out
of that company, and there's a lot of money to
take and you know what I mean, if a family
deserves that, they deserve it, you know, to profit from this.
They took a lot of risks to bring it to
where it is. But I mean from a stockholder standpoint
and for the long term health of the company, if
they've got to, if they if they need to rough

(33:34):
out a really tough time, especially if pay per view
gets worse, I don't know. I mean, pirating of pay
per views is going to be more and more of
an issue. I mean, the the estimates now educated calculated
estimates are as many people are watching illegal streams now
I don't know if it's just live or live and
on tape to lay, as as those who are ordering
them to buy them. And granted, it's not the same

(33:55):
experience to watch it on your computer screen as it
is to watch it, you know, on a big screen
with fulster sound, and that's what they're counting on. But
you know, they're raising the price is driving more and
more people to do something which frankly is illegal and wrong.
And I don't approve of it because it's something that
you know, it's it's illegal. It can affect my business,
and people do it to the paid side of my sight,
and it's just no matter how people rationalize torrents and

(34:18):
that type of thing is wrong. It's steeling money out
of the pocket as somebody who's offering something for a price,
and there's a lot of free stuff out there. You
shouldn't steal stuff. I mean, it just is. And but
the fact is is that's what. It doesn't make it okay,
it doesn't ratch. It doesn't make it better for anybody
to do it, but it's being done. And that's where
I think again, the price point for WWE is driving
people to do things, even people who are normally honest

(34:38):
in what shoplift into shoplifting.

Speaker 4 (34:40):
Well, and the other part of that is, you know, people,
excuse me, there's more perspective uses for that sort of
thing because people have figured out, well, we can take
this and rip it onto our iPods or our PSPs
or or what have you.

Speaker 3 (34:54):
Yeah, yeah, well Ian anything else for.

Speaker 2 (34:57):
Us, Yeah, I guess. Whenever I saw that this morning
about the season four, it just kind of caught me
off guard because I had seen a few days ago
where they were having a casting call for Tough Enough. Yeah,
and that that just had me a little worried that
that show is going to be full of actors or
people wanting to be wrestlers or you know, like differ

(35:19):
instead of you know what it should be.

Speaker 3 (35:22):
Well to me when I read that, I thought tough
Enough is going to be a level lower than NXT.
Tough Enough is going to be a reality show that
they might as well call so you think you so
you think you can be a wrestler? I mean, that's
what I think it is. I don't think it's if.
I mean, they obviously whe people aren't gonna get hurt
in the ring, who are gonna be able to take
bumps and aren't going to be scared to climb with
the ropes, But in general, it does seem like it's
the the most entry level aspect of becoming a wrestler,

(35:45):
and they're going to turn that into a reality show
where NXT is a show of people who actually have
gun through training and have wrestled professionally in front of
the crowds before. And I don't know that that's a bad thing.
I mean, I think it's interesting to take you know,
a bunch of a bunch of quote kids in there,
you know, eighteen to thirty two, probably more you know,
early twenties to mid twenties, and uh and put them

(36:06):
through the you know, put them through some tests to
see if they have what it takes to be a wrestlers,
you know, and and I mean you put them all,
you know what, whatever they do with the concept, I
think there's a way to make that concept work and
have fun with it. And you know, Vince wok Man
talked about NXC revolutionizing things and it turned out to be,
you know, a huge disappointment based on what they actually
did with it. They didn't do anything. You know, Vince's

(36:28):
hype was much greater than what the product turned out
to be, and he seemed to lose interest pretty quick
in it. Ian anything else that's to have a good day. Cool, Thanks,
I appreciate that. All right, Let's go on to our
next caller. If you want to get in a line
on the phone banks, that's a full lines were packed
for the first two days of the week. As usual,
we're usually busier earlier in the week, So if you've
been waiting to become a first time caller, now happens

(36:50):
to be good time to do it. We're usually even
busier on Wednesdays than we are today. So feel free
to give us a call six four six seven two
one nine eight two eight six four six seven to wait.
Let's go to our next call area code three three six.
Thanks for calling. Please state your name and where you're from.

Speaker 8 (37:07):
This is Brian from North Carolina.

Speaker 3 (37:09):
Hey, Brian, good for what's in your mind today?

Speaker 8 (37:13):
We were talking in the chat room a little bit
earlier about the commentators. Could you see a female commentator
in WW or T and A?

Speaker 3 (37:22):
Yeah, yeah, I don't see any reason why not. If
she's good, go for it. I mean, even the concert
of female ring announcers wasn't really a real popular thing.
Lily and Garcia the the the Pride ring announcer for
Pride Fighting Championships was spectacular. I know. WWE's tried a
few others over the years, and some of the divas
have done it, and T and A has had obviously

(37:44):
a long run, uh dating back to the original Wednesday Night.
What was the name of the.

Speaker 1 (37:49):
Woman pat who did the uh the interviews on Wednesday Night,
the Wednesday pay per views?

Speaker 4 (37:54):
That would be Goldilocks.

Speaker 3 (37:56):
Goldilocks, Yes, thank you? So how could I forget that?
So she started off? You know, T and A has
always had a woman holding the microphone behind the scenes.
It seems at every stage some of them overact terribly.
But then they're taught by Jeremy Borash, so that's explained.
Although Jeremy's gotten a lot better at that this year

(38:16):
when he was doing the interies. But anyway, I digress. Yeah,
I think a female commentator would work. I mean, you don't,
like with any announcer, you've got to have the pice
for it so that people want to listen to you.
And that applies to men or women, and sometimes especially
happens for some reason with with some of the women
wrestlers when they're guest commentators, they just they get kind
of sheepish. I think in the in the way that
they talk, they don't project the way that they should
some of the women wrestlers because they don't get as

(38:37):
much promo work as some of the guys. But then
there's been male wrestlers who have been on color commentator
who have put us to sleep too or or not
projected well. But there's absolutely no reason that WWA should
exclude their talent search for announcers from being a woman.
I I'm well, is it? What's the NBA on now
it's not NBC anymore. It's on ABC, and they've had

(39:00):
I had a female color commentator. I don't know her
name right off, but I think she played in the
w n B A and that not. I don't know
that that was the first in sports, but it was
a rare occasion where there's been a female commentator for
pro men's sports in a major sport.

Speaker 8 (39:14):
Did you have anyone specific in mind?

Speaker 3 (39:16):
Rot All, Oh no, I don't, Uh, there's no. I
know some women of good voices weren't wrestling fans, but no, no,
I don't. Do you have anybody in mind, Brian.

Speaker 8 (39:28):
Well, we were just talking about that. I was kind
of joking at it, stiff even yeah.

Speaker 3 (39:32):
No, no, no, no, no, no no. I don't want
to listen to her. I do not want to listen
to Stephanie, although she's got kind of a deep voice.
So if she did it, I don't know that. Oh
this is mean. If she did announce, I don't know
that people would necessarily know it was a woman announced
her that. I could actually think Vicky might be all

(39:54):
right on color commentary. She's got good pipes, she could
she could project. I don't pat any ideas from you.

Speaker 4 (39:59):
Well, the problem is there's there's no shortage of color
commentators in WWE. The problem is they don't have a
so they don't have anyone who can do play by play,
you know, female commentators. I think the best one I
know of right now is Portia Perez does Shimmer. And
you know, WW probably missed an opportunity by not having
a a woman commentator doing NXP last season.

Speaker 3 (40:23):
Yeah, yep, yeah really, I mean x he could have
been a show. I'm sorry, go ahead right me to
talk about sorry about that.

Speaker 8 (40:34):
Where exactly can you see Shimmers? It just online or what?

Speaker 3 (40:37):
Uh? You go?

Speaker 4 (40:38):
You get the DVDs? You go to Shimmer Wrestling dot com.

Speaker 3 (40:42):
Shimmer Wrestling dot com. Yeah, yeah, if you like, if
you'd like to see women's wrestling, especially matches at less
longer than three or four minutes and where the outcome
is actually has ramifications on what happens next and it's
treated seriously, that is the place to go. There's some
passionate people behind that product from the beginning, Dave Phrase
act who who really wanted to try to bring the

(41:04):
level of of how people look at women's wrestling up
up a notch.

Speaker 1 (41:09):
If you missed it earlier. Just a reminder we're running
our second VIP sale of the year. We don't do
these often. Take advantage of it now. It is a
limited time offer. Take nine dollars off a VIP subscription
a one month, three month or one year sub It
brings the one month sub down to just three dollars
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V twenty twenty five as in November Nov twenty twenty five,

(41:30):
and that takes nine dollars off when you check out
on our sign up form pw torch dot com slash
go vi IP gives you full details on membership benefits
and links to our sign up form.

Speaker 3 (41:43):
Anyway, go ahead, right, Can I ask about the DNA? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 8 (41:49):
Do you think they've improved a little bit from a
couple of years ago to where they used? So many
older gays have been there like twenty five years. I
mean a lot of their all their chantons on there
are pre good.

Speaker 3 (42:00):
Yeah, you know what I actually think at like right now,
like Thanksgiving show, they're better, I mean somemo Joe is
in a major angle. Jeff Jared Jeff Jarret's older but
still the main event was an eight man eight man yeah,
eight man tag match, and everybody there, I'm fine with
being on the roster, you know, it's it's I don't
think there was a lot of wasted cause what let
me see, uh Matt Morgan samo Joe the Pope and

(42:25):
who am I missing?

Speaker 4 (42:26):
Douglas Williams.

Speaker 3 (42:27):
Douglas Williams up and I like Douglas Willams. I like
the sense of humor, I mean anyway, and then you
had beer Money and aj Styles and uh Pat beer Money,
a J selsand thank you, thank you, Yes, Kaz who
as movie star looks were told and and you know
those were all you know, relatively young guys, t Anda originals.
Nobody's gonna flip the channel on and go, oh my god,

(42:49):
is this like a rerun from Thunder? So so that's good,
This isn't this isn't main event Mafia anymore, you know.
And and Jeff Hardy, you know, I don't think people
look at him and think, oh, he's been around forever.
He's not in good he's not in great shape anymore.
He's starting to look, you know, like he's not taking
care of himself, because that's the lifestyle he leads will
catch up to you at you know, age in your
early thirties rather than your late thirties or forties like

(43:10):
with most people, and so he's probably gonna age pretty quick.
But his character now fits being you know, fits being
a heel and looking haggard and looking like you just
woke up in an alley. You know. Rob van Dam
has been a disappointment this year. You know, some of
the concerns we had about him, anybody ever had about him,
kind of came to be true in terms of the
enthusiasm he brought to the table for some of the
things that he did, and a little bit of the

(43:31):
arrogance that he can phone it in and be better
than anybody else, you know, kind of I think got
up to him a little bit. But a lot of
that was poor booking. But it isn't as bad. My
problem still is is it doesn't I don't have a
problem with somebody from the late nineties or early two
thousands or whatever he's been around forever being on TV.
It really, Brian, is when it's every segment or two
out of three segments, they suck the oxygen out of

(43:53):
the room and they take you end up trying to
write television for these quote stars who are making more
money than everybody else, and you end up booking to
justify the pay and booking to justify or deal with
their ego. And sometimes the people getting pushed are the
ones with the power to get pushed. And I think
it's so much better to have a disinterested person off

(44:14):
camera beside who deserves a push, rather than have the
people who are friends with the people who are getting
a push or I'm sorry, rather than have the people
who have known somebody for fifteen years decide to push
their friend because they've been friends forever and they want
them to get a paycheck and they hope it works out.
And too much of that was going on. But I
think in general, I think you can look at TNA

(44:34):
now as being in a better spot in terms of
committing to some of the younger talent than they had
been in the past, and I think the show more
often than not, is better than it was a year
or two ago. In that regard, I think the abundant
when there's a bunch of backstage segments with Eric Bischoff
and Hulk Cogan, especially Bischoff talking about the business side
of things in Dixie Carter. I just don't think they

(44:56):
have I don't think they quite understand how LI know,
the eighteen to thirty four demographic cares about Ho Cogan
and Dixie Carter's feelings or who has more power. They
want to see wrestlers who can wrestle, wrestling for titles
and wrestling to subtle feuds. And Eric talking about Dixie
and Dixie showing her pouty face or being all bravat

(45:17):
it just doesn't matter to the demographics that they're going after.
And Eric's good at what he does and Dixie's not
bad on camera, you know, so, but that doesn't mean
it's the right thing that that should be taking up
as much airwaves as it has. I've pat your thoughts
on that.

Speaker 4 (45:30):
Yeah, as an example, you know, I've occasionally sit down
and watch UFC Fight nights, and I can't help notice
that there aren't the ongoing storylines with Dana White and
Joe Silva backstage.

Speaker 3 (45:42):
No, no, it's safe for press conferences. And and you know,
Dana White's never said anything about Scott Coker from Strike
Force on UFC. He said plenty about him when asked
in the interviews in press conferences, and you know, there's
a time and place to reference your competition. There's a
time and place to reference ratings, there's a time and
place to reference in house fighting. It's almost never on

(46:05):
a sports cast. And wrestling. And I know this is news,
and I know philosophically, there's some people who disagree with
me on this, and they're wrong. I'll just say that
wrestling is a simulated sport. It's not a real sport,
but it's a simulation of a real sport. And when
you simulate something, it should have some level of realism
to it. You know, doctors doctor shows try to act

(46:26):
and look like doctors within a certain creative you know,
creative freedom a little bit, there's a little bit of
liberty given to how things are done. But generally speaking,
when you're a doctor on television, you try to learn
how doctors wash their hands before surgery, or how they
talk to patients and and that type of thing. And
wrestling it just seems like there's a disregard for trying
to come across as a sport. In fact, you're almost

(46:47):
trying to run from an apologize for it, such as
when Michael Cole pointed out on Monday to see him punk.
You're not a wrestler, You're a sports entertainer. Get it straight.

Speaker 8 (46:57):
Are you glad they got rid of the ball cage
format lot down in the King of the Mountain match?

Speaker 3 (47:03):
I can well go ahead.

Speaker 4 (47:05):
Did they get the all cage format for lockdown? When
did that happen? Oh? I mean the King of the
Mountain match. I'm fine with I'm fine with losing because
you know, I while while I like tradition, it's a
it's a complicated gimmick match. And TNA has a problem
explaining the non complicated matches.

Speaker 3 (47:26):
And they have too many of them. You know, if
they had one a year, like like King of the Mountain,
Welcome Back to the Cage, four meats like King of
the Mountain works if you headline eleven out of twelve
pay per views and every TV show with a one
on one match or two on two match. If you
go eleven months having straight up one on one matches
and then you say we are going to have our

(47:47):
annual King of the King of the Mountain match, and
the rules are out, the normal traditional rules are out
the window. Then it's like, oh, let me pay attention
to this, let me learn the rules. It's going to
be interesting. It's a totally different dynamic. But TNA, it's
philosophy and it's it's and I don't I didn't know
that they were dropping the all cage format if that
had been finalized. But if they do, I think it's
a good move because there's you can make the case

(48:11):
we're desperate for pay per view buys. We're just gonna
do whatever we can to try to shock people into
buying it. And who if one cage match is good,
then seven should be better. And I disagree with that philosophy,
but I but I get in the short term why
they're trying to do it. And frankly, they could make
the case, Hey, usc every match is a cage match.
Why can't we have every match in a cage? Well,
the answer to that is, when every match is in

(48:31):
a cage, how do you elevate that to the next
level when you actually do have a circumstance that calls
for it, a specific match that calls for a cage.
You know, a feud between two people where like Bruce's
tried to explain Bruce Mitchell over and over again over
the years, there's a real history to gimmick matches and
why they worked at one point and when they don't,
and they work when there's an organic reason that that

(48:53):
causes you to think, hey, it'd be great if these
two could settle their feud. The only way to do
that is in a cage. The odds of having seven
US or eight views at once that need a cage
is very low. So what you end up doing is
you end up putting a bunch people in cage matches
who aren't really in a blood feud. There's not issues
with interference or or trying to settle things once and
for all, and so then you just make the cage

(49:13):
kind of commonplace. It doesn't feel special anymore. And I
think that, you know, it's it's the well yeah, I
mean there's a lot of analogies for it, but I
think I'm made my point. So if they drop the
if they if they finalize and drop the all cage format,
I'm all. I'm for that. I you know, I've written
about it. I think what I think pay per view
should be about a wrestler facing a wrestler for a title,

(49:35):
and underneath that, uh and the undercard wrestlers facing wrestlers
to either settle a feud, or more often than not,
try to move up the rankings and to earn a
title shot. And I think there's a lot of really compelling,
interesting stories you can tell that way without share shots
for the head, without tons of stipulations, and without a
bunch of shair shots. I'm sorry, without a bunch of stipulations.
I just think there's it's pro wrestling is more compelling

(49:56):
than the people at its most organic, stripped down version.
I think it's more compelling uh in the hands of
a good booker than today's lazier bookers or bookers using crutches.
Realize and if somebody really understands how to tell the
compelling story between one good one guy you like and
one guy you don't like fighting for over a title
or or a grudge, there's so many good ways to

(50:18):
tell a story inside the ring without stipulations or a gimmick.
Brian any closing words.

Speaker 8 (50:26):
And I was just wanting did dumbs we ever hold
this tag team town?

Speaker 3 (50:31):
I don't know, right you mean n W W E
or Ann. I don't think Spirit Squad did, and I
don't like.

Speaker 4 (50:40):
Waite the Spirit Squad did hold the tag team titles? However,
technically the people who held them were Ken Down with
Kenny Dykstra and Mike Mikey was Mike Mondo.

Speaker 3 (50:50):
Oh okay, all right, all right, I guess I forgot that,
all right. Thank you great, Thanks Brian, appreciate your call.

Speaker 1 (51:02):
You don't have to wait for the way Keller Pro
Wrestling post show to find out what I thought of
Monday Night Raw and SmackDown. Each week, you can check
out my reports that are updated live throughout Raw and
SmackDown at pwtorch dot com. My written report will tell
you what's happening in detail in case you missed the show,
and it will also analyze key segments and give my
random thoughts quips on what I'm watching as it airs.

(51:25):
So check it out every Monday night and Tuesday night
at pwtorch dot com. That also applies to wwepayperviews. I
cover those live at pw torch dot com with a
detailed written report with star ratings, and of course you
can find other TV reports from other contributors to PW
torch such as nxt roh, Impact Wrestling and more. Check
it out pwtorch dot com your first stop for TV

(51:48):
and pay per view written reports.

Speaker 3 (51:59):
Our phone over here is six four six seven one
nine eight two eight six four six seven ninety two eight.
I'm Wade Keller, host of the PW Torch Loadcast, joined
today by Pat McNeil, longtime Pro Wrestling Torch columnist. I
do want to give a quick plug. I did this yesterday.
I did it briefly at the beginning of the show.
I have a new website, a new web page called
Wade Keller dot com, and it is my daily blog.

(52:21):
Today I had my random Stuff column where I just
plucked some things I kind of caught my interest out
of the headlines or some obscure things that I wanted
to write about. I talked about TNA announcing the return
of kurd Angle at the Genesis pay per view. I
talked about how I think kurd Angle could be better
utilized by TNA and how Shelton Benjamin Charlie hostin into that.
So I wrote a few paragraphs on that. Also, I

(52:42):
talked about Mick Foley's interview with Geek Week talking about
his frustration with TNA not showing his appearance in front
of hundreds of thousands of people at the rally to
restore sanity and or fear, and I also wrote about
WWE cutting back a cutting corners budget wise, and also
my thoughts on wrestlers who never held the WWE World
title and kind of my case for why I think

(53:04):
probably the right people held the title and nobody jumps
out at me who was necessarily at the time they
were in their prime in WWE robbed of a title reign.
So that gives you an idea of some of the
subjects I talked about. Also, I posted your suggestions that
I asked for yesterday on what Hulk Hogan really means
when he says incessantly, including last Thursday un impact to
Dixie Carter that he's raised the bar in CNA. So

(53:26):
we've got nearly a dozen suggestions there. Late last night
I posted, actually not late last night, in prime time
last night I posted an interview that I did one
on one in person with Vince McMahon from ten years ago.
It was an exclusive interview talking about the XFL and
also some newsworthy comments about WWFS or WWE's first attempt

(53:47):
to purchase WCW and what went wrong. I conducted that
at the XFL press conference actually ten years ago, and
actually got a few minutes aside with vincick Man and
so anyway, lots of stuff up there this week already.
I really do encourage you to check out weaightkeller dot
com and bookmarket. It's relatively iPhone friendly if you're somebody
who primarily goes to PW torch and reads it on

(54:11):
your phone on your application to their and your droid
or your iPhone. The articles on the weight Keller blog
are not on the app yet. They may not be ever,
but they're certainly not right now. It's not on the plans,
so you've got to either log on on your smartphones
web browser or go or when you're on a computer,
a PC or a laptop, go to weightkeller dot com.
But some good stuff, some fun stuff on the on
the blog. I've been having a really good time with

(54:32):
it and hope you'll make it a daily stop for you. Also, Pat,
I think even though we got a couple of people
on hold, I think it's good to go to an
event center here. Last week we missed out on it
headed on the VIP after show, but why don't we
go ahead and go to that if you're ready for us?

Speaker 10 (54:46):
All right?

Speaker 4 (54:47):
The Hello wrestling fans, it is Wednesday, in time for
your Live event Center update for the weekend. Of course,
you can go to WW dot com right now and
check out the NFT season alley, the final battle between
Naomi and Caitlin. I know you can't wait and let

(55:07):
me know how it turned out. By the way, tomorrow
Wade WW Superstars will be on w G in America,
and you know, we have been waiting for this match
for weeks and we're finally gonna see it on Superstars
tomorrow night the Heart Dynasty collides David Hart Smith versus
Tyson Kidd.

Speaker 3 (55:24):
They should just have snoring in the background, you know,
since they've made fun of how boring they are, they
might as well just put snoring on instead of commentary. Now,
I think it'll be a better match than that because
I like Tyson Kid. David or Smith is what they say,
he's very boring, but Tyson Kit he's good. He kind
of fills the spot that Evan Borne had is being
a guy you can count on for some good athleticism.
But I'm saying, WWE, they make such an issue with

(55:46):
those two being boring, you know, they might as well
just go with the Zenie Morning Crew sound effects to
really drive it home tomorrow. Okay, hey, you're going to
said you wanted commentary during the Things.

Speaker 4 (55:56):
Pat no I sort of on Fike TV, the final
show before the big Final Resolution pay per view, you'll
get to see Matt Morgan, the number one contender, taking
on Rhino and Edy. Main event a huge grudge match
as the Pope and Samoa Joe team up to take

(56:17):
on Abyss and Jeff Jarrett. I wonder how that one
will end. W W is taping Tribute to the Troops
later this week in Fort Hood, Texas. We don't know
what masses will be on that show, however, we've been
told that the group Dirty Money will be performing there,
and Cedric the Entertainer will be there, and Miss USA
will be there and Sherry Shepherd from the View will

(56:39):
be there, so that that sounds exciting. WWE SmackDown on
Sci Fi this Friday night. You'll get to see Kachi
Kakeson taking on Jack Swagger and the much anticipated non
titled Doubts between Edge and Kine where the winner gets
to take the stipulation for their match. At TLC. Okay,

(56:59):
FIP and PWR and pretty much every indie group in
the Gulf Coast of Florida is putting on the Jeff
Peterson Cup. That is this weekend. Friday night, they'll be
in Brooksville for the start of that sixteen man tournament.
Saturday night Crystal River, the home of FIP Brooksville. You
get to see the first round matches, including such classics

(57:20):
as reck Titus taking on Sugar Dunkerton, Rich Swan battling
Grizzly Redwood Redwood. The Dark City Fight Club will be
there to defend their FIP tag ting titles. The ROH
World Champion Roderick Strong will be there. Then Saturday night
Crystal River, it'll be John Moxley defending that FIP title
against former FIP champion Eric Stevens. WW house shows this

(57:44):
weekend we touched on that briefly. The A shows are
Las Vegas Saturday night and Ontario, California on Sunday, both
of which should be headlined by the Mis Versus Wade
Barrett Versus Edge. The D shows are in Jackson, Tennessee,
and Bowling Green, Kentucky. King will be there. Your Word
Heavyweight Champion daniel'brien will be there. John Morrison will be

(58:04):
there and your new King of the Ring Seamus will
be there all right. TNA's final resolution pay per view
is this Sunday night. We will of course have live
covers on PW touch dot com and a special round
roundtable for VIP audio members after the program. Of the
nine matches announced this Tayer VW eight, seven of them
have stipulations. Also, five of them are rematches some last

(58:28):
month's pay per view, Your Your Main Bout, Samoa Joe
meeting Jeff Jarrett in a submission match and Hardy versus
Morgan too. Jeff Hardy defends the TNA title against Matt Morgan.
There'll be a special referee for this match who will
be announced tomorrow on Impact Rick of Honor on HD
Net This Monday night, it will be Eddie Edwards defending

(58:48):
the rh Television title against Cold Cabana. In your main Event,
WW RAW on USA Network will be coming to you
from Louisville, Kentucky. We will get that confrontation between Michael
Cole and Joy the King Lawler, and hopefully we'll get
to see our new WW champions the Mins once again.
And of course the new season Season four NXT debuts

(59:10):
why this Tuesday night in Dayton, Ohio. And that's your
update back.

Speaker 5 (59:14):
To you, Ed.

Speaker 3 (59:15):
Thank you very much. Pat. And I see we've got
a couple of people on hold, so why don't we
go right to calls so don't run short on time
and or for them and have to rush them too much.
Let's go to area go three three six. Thanks for Callinglee.
State your name and where you're from.

Speaker 11 (59:31):
Good evening. Wait, good evening, talk coy today.

Speaker 3 (59:34):
Very good. State your name and where you're from.

Speaker 11 (59:36):
For us, I am, I mean from Paris, from.

Speaker 3 (59:40):
The greatest country in the world. Have you been to
all of them?

Speaker 12 (59:46):
No?

Speaker 11 (59:47):
But how many people come to friends every year? We
are the most difference in the world. So we all
did this.

Speaker 3 (59:54):
I am not. Actually, I have a neighbors of mine
who are good friends, and they got job trained. Well.
The hub been got a job transfer to France, spent
a couple of years there, absolutely loved it, and when
he moved back here he wanted to sell his car
and just live somewhere where he could walk everywhere. Had
great things to say about it, he said, he said,
And I know it's a little bit of you guys.
Hear this sometimes that not everybody was as friendly, impersonable

(01:00:17):
as they are here in Minnesota, which, by the way,
in Minnesota we're known for having Minnesota nice is kind
of what we're called. We're very nice people here in
the Midwest. We kind of have to because we get
stuck in the snow a lot. But that I didn't ask,
have you been to every country? Because of you being
from France. I have said of people who say America
is the greatest country too, I just think when people
say that, it's good to have national pride, But I'm

(01:00:38):
waiting to run into the person who's actually been to
every country and has actually come to a good, solid,
empirically based conclusion that they are the greatest country. Newsweek
tried to rape countries the other a few months ago.

Speaker 1 (01:00:49):
And their magazine and it was pretty tough. But anyway,
I'm rambling. Go ahead of me.

Speaker 11 (01:00:55):
I have two questions. As the first plant needs. I
remember reading I Can unders You and he was talking
about his push because he was w W before he's released.
He released in nine where he's going to get the push,
but he's gonna pretty much concept because they say he

(01:01:18):
is too entertaining as a hill. And my my take
on this is it into stupids, because when you turn
on to see pro wrestling, it's to be you want
to be entertained. And if the hills and the hill
has to.

Speaker 3 (01:01:33):
Be say the last part of since again the accident
got me? You tune in to be entertained? And what.

Speaker 11 (01:01:40):
Yeah, and the he'll be too entertained?

Speaker 3 (01:01:44):
Oh? Sure that heard the product or the arrivalry? And
and and uh is it a mirror? A mean? I mean,
I mean, thank you, that's my handwriting, not your accent.
Who was the first person you talked about?

Speaker 11 (01:01:57):
Her?

Speaker 3 (01:01:57):
And everything is except the name of the.

Speaker 11 (01:01:58):
Person Ken Anderson?

Speaker 3 (01:02:00):
Gotcha? Okay, so two good copics, got two good topics?
Pat Uh do you think? And they're kind of we
can combine them into one in a sense. Is is
it wrong to be too entertaining as a heel? Or
is there a way to be entertaining but still get
the type of heel heat that drops?

Speaker 4 (01:02:16):
Yes, I mean you're talking about you know, being the
cool heel might make you feel better, it might help
you sell merchandise, but usually it's not what you're going
for in the long term. In order to get people
to dislike you and and get the get the storylines going.
So yeah, I guess it's possible to be uh, it
is possible to be too entertaining if you're if you're

(01:02:37):
doing it the wrong way. Ken Anderson, I you know,
I I don't remember what their long term plans were
him for him were. I mean, at one point people, yes,
at one point it actually looked like he would end
up with a world title.

Speaker 3 (01:02:51):
He Ken Anderson did not get laid off or depushed
because he was too entertaining. I like mister I like
mister Kennedy and mister Anderson, but he said some really
stupid things on television when he ran his mouths especially
I don't know if ran his mouth is right. I
think just when he spoke freely after the Chris Benoi,
the whole Chris Benwa controversy, and I mean, he just

(01:03:13):
backed him into a corner and he had some injuries,
although he makes a pretty compelling case why he wasn't
injury prone and that's blown out of proportion. But I
don't think mister Anderson was let go because he was
too entertaining. I do think people tune into wrestling to
be entertained, but I think people tune into wrestling because
they want to get into cheering for somebody and cheering
against somebody else. I know, that's why tune into sports,

(01:03:33):
That's why you watch the Olympics, cheer for your country
and you hope that they beat especially certain rival countries.
You know. And so I think it's one thing to
say you're supposed to be entertaining, but at the core
the entertainment should be within the context of making you
want to see two people fight, and one of them
you should want to see when in the other one
you should take great pleasure and Beeing lose. So I'd

(01:03:55):
make my argument to that.

Speaker 1 (01:03:56):
I mean, we are running our second VIP sale of
the year. You want to take advantage of this. If
you've thought of going VIP or let your sublaps had
to step away for a while, it's a good time
to come back. Pwtorch dot com slash Go vip tells
you about VIP membership. There is a link to our
order form and you can choose a one month or

(01:04:17):
three month subscription and you can take nine dollars off
any of those three options. The coupon code is Nov
twenty twenty five. As in November Nov twenty twenty five,
to take nine dollars off. That brings a one month
sub down to three dollars and ninety nine cents. That
is a full VIP membership that means you unlock nearly
four decades of archives, one hundreds of retro radio shows

(01:04:38):
from the nineties, two decades and more of podcasts on demand,
along with an ad free website, ad free versions of
our free podcasts, and a bunch of VIP exclusive features,
including podcasts that are compatible with the Apple Podcast native
app and many other Android and iobs apps, and also
the new Wade Keller News bulletins that come in three formats,
a PDF that's great on a tablet or a laptop screen,

(01:05:00):
an all text version which is great to read on
your phone, and a podcast version. These run about sixteen
minutes in terms of podcast length, and it is a
new feature. I'm running two three four times a week.
I'm going to try to increase that as my schedule
adjust to this new feature. So check it out. Pw
Torch dot com slash go vi IP coupon code n
OLV twenty twenty five to take nine dollars off a

(01:05:22):
one month, three month or one year sub.

Speaker 11 (01:05:26):
Yes, let's question before you being a wrestling journalist and
the opinions. What is today, in your opinion, the best
finishing maneuver? Right now, I'll give you on the national TV. Sure,
if you want to, I can give you my takes.
It's the I don't worry, but I love thet story
by Douglas Williams. It's so awesome, even if he's British

(01:05:49):
and I was French with Doult.

Speaker 3 (01:05:50):
Like British finisher. That's no, that's a good pick, I've Pat,
you have one that jumps right out.

Speaker 4 (01:06:00):
Yeah, whatever one of those three hundred moves Dragon Kid
does in Dragon Game. I think he did a springboard
stunner on the one last DVD I watched.

Speaker 3 (01:06:11):
We're short on time. I'm gonna put some more thought
into that subject and I'll try to answer it at
better length. When I have time to think. I'm gonna
squeeze in the last thirty seconds. Here one more called
seven to seven eight. Thanks for calling. Give us a
quick question or comment. Whoa, oh, he just hung up.
Too much pressure, too much pressure.

Speaker 4 (01:06:28):
I'll keep an eye on those Germans.

Speaker 3 (01:06:30):
Yes, well, we're almost out of time here on the
live cast, Pat, you and I are going to stick
around for VIP members and do the VIP after show.
Everybody join, join us tomorrow for another show and Friday
we're here same time, saying every day, don't forget pw
Torch dot com, slash go vi P and Wadkeller dot com.
Those are places to go right now go.

Speaker 2 (01:07:02):
Thank you for using blog talk radio.

Speaker 7 (01:07:04):
Goodbye.

Speaker 3 (01:07:05):
Oh right, Pat, we are to the VIP after show
portion of the program here on December one, twenty and ten.
Go ahead, Pat, No good thing?

Speaker 4 (01:07:15):
Yes we are?

Speaker 3 (01:07:16):
O good? Okay, you're not. Yes, I'm going to jumping on.
Do you have any do we have any questions from
the Pat McNeil zone and our production meeting? I forgot
to ask that.

Speaker 4 (01:07:24):
Oh actually we do have one. I haven't checked since
the show started, but Patterson and Stevens.

Speaker 5 (01:07:30):
Who you know?

Speaker 4 (01:07:31):
You know, he's been a board member for a long time.

Speaker 3 (01:07:33):
Yep. And write some good VIP blogs by the way,
check that out VIP members. Yes, chick on the VIP
blog section and go seek out his articles.

Speaker 4 (01:07:40):
Yeah, go do that now. Anyway, here asked how how
we would push Daniel.

Speaker 3 (01:07:45):
Brian unless you're driving?

Speaker 4 (01:07:47):
What's that?

Speaker 3 (01:07:48):
Unless you're driving? Don't do it now?

Speaker 4 (01:07:49):
Then okay, don't push Dangle'brian while you're driving.

Speaker 3 (01:07:54):
No, no, no, no, I was three seconds. My joke
came three seconds plate. Don't go to the VIP section
right now. If you're driving, if you're.

Speaker 4 (01:08:03):
If you're a stoplight though, it's okay.

Speaker 3 (01:08:05):
But anyway, just and you know what, don't even financialize.
Just wait till you hear a hornhunking. That's a good
signal to go again.

Speaker 4 (01:08:11):
Right, Yes, well, you know, I mean they have, They've
pushed them, you know, better than than I initially thought
they would. They've given them the US final I you know,
I came up with a few different ideas. I had
a few days to think about this one. What I
would do with Daniel Brian is you know, I would

(01:08:31):
It's sort of what I would do with with a
bunch of the a bunch of the wrestlers of limited size.
I guess you'd call them Daniel Bryan and caval And
and Gray Mysterio and Tyson Kid. You take a division
that w W is not using and let them take
it over. And you know, I know there's a problem
with the name cruiser Weight because it implies that, you know,

(01:08:52):
John forbid it implies that that there are lighter weight
wrestlers out there and therefore aren't as manly as the
heavyweight wrestlers and therefore aren't is important. But if you gave,
if you gave these guys and and you could throw
Tyler Black or whoever else you want in there, if
you gave these guys the tag team division, and you
know they then maybe you know, give Shavo and you

(01:09:13):
know Shava takes Tyson Kid under his wing and makes
them the tag team. Daniel, Bryan and Cabal become a
tag team, you know that that sort of thing, and
they and they start beating with each other. Suddenly nobody
a nobody cares about how small the guys are because
they look you know, they look evenly matched with the
guys opposite from them. B you could do more double
team moves of them, and the potentially create more exciting action. See,

(01:09:36):
it's a lot easier to buy two smaller guys beating
up on one larger wrestler than it is to buy,
you know, than it is than it is to buy
a one on one match, which is how you could
explain a smaller tag team maybe beating a larger tag
team that's just my opinion.

Speaker 5 (01:09:50):
Though.

Speaker 3 (01:09:51):
Wait, I well, I like the uh. I like the
cruiserweight term. In this is a little bit of sidebar,
but I like the cruiserweight term in part because it's
an actual boxing termain that's been around for decades, and
it is one step below heavyweight, but it is, you know,
in the boxing world, I think about ten steps a
head featherweight and on a dozen steps ahead abandon weight.

(01:10:13):
There should be no stigma attached to it. There shouldn't
be a stigma attached to size period. If pro wresting promoters,
you know, actually just did their job and got over
the self inflicted stigma that there's something wrong or that
there's something weak about acknowledging that two equally skilled fighters

(01:10:37):
are probably going to the heavier weight wrestler is probably
going to be able to win. Not in every case,
but there's nothing wrong with that. BJ Penn has no
problem admitting that he would probably lose to cane Velasquas.
So pro wrestling promos need to get over that. As
for how I push Daniel Bryan, I mean, I'm not
terribly upset with how they're pushing him right now. I

(01:11:00):
mean there's I think there's better ways, but this is
I've been pleasantly surprised that, yeah, he's lost some clean matches,
but overall, in the company, the way that the company
exists right now, if you don't do a massive overhaul,
you know, I think having him had the US title
and get some wins over the bigger Teddy Bassi and
get some TV time, I mean, yeah, the thing about
him being a nerd, or he's you know, having him dance,

(01:11:22):
or he's never had a date, I mean stuff like that.
I mean, I think I know what they're trying to
do with it, and they're trying to make him the
wrestler that you know, people who are, you know, the
Lady Gaga thing, if you're kind of an outcast, where
he's the guy, you know, he's the guy for you.
But they do such a poor job of it because
it makes it well pointing that out, they actually mock it.

(01:11:42):
So I like from a wrestling standpoint what they've done
with him. Personality wise, obviously I'm not crazy about it.
But if they had a weight division, that'd be great.
I mean, it would be he'd be the perfect guy
for it. If they got serious about the take team division,
definitely you could put him in the take team situation.
But given the way WDWE operates, he's kind of in
a you know, Chris Benlah type spot. He's the guy

(01:12:04):
you can count on for a good paper viewmatch, and
someday he actually might be on a course based on
the fact that they kind of like him behind the scenes.
Believe it or not, he might be on the course
to someday being one of those people who gets the
world title that nobody thought would have would have ever
been possible. They might shock us with that. I I
don't think it's better than fifty fifty, but I tell

(01:12:24):
you what, it wasn't long ago. I thought it would
have been less than five percent, and I think it's
better than that. Right now, What's what are the odds
makers say in your mind on Daniel Brian ever actually
holding one of the two world titles.

Speaker 4 (01:12:36):
I'd probably well, that's a good question, you know, if
the attrition continues at the rate it has is, yes,
odds are better than fifty fifty.

Speaker 3 (01:12:45):
Yeah, yeah, real, Okay, you know, maybe fifteen per so
that could go up, you know, yeah, yeah, I mean
I think it is headed up, but it doesn't take
much to knock it down a notch too. I wrote
about this in at way Teler dot com and in
the VIP blog for VIP members. Also this idea that

(01:13:11):
we're in. James Carlo posted this is the question today
and it's a fair question. Is a good question. Which
wrestler do you think deserved a world title WWE title
run who didn't get it? And this is brought up.
It's timely again, not just from Roddy Piper's promo two
and a half weeks ago, but obviously from what was
done with Terry Lawler on Monday, a pat of the
name to her being mentioned. Well, first, you know, you

(01:13:31):
can say if there's somebody else who jumps out at you.
But the names mentioned in the first batch of emails
we got and this is strictly WWE world titles for
WS Rick Steamboat, Roddy Piper, Andre the Giant, Teddy Biassi,
Rick Rude, Greg Valentine and Jerry Lawler, Jake Roberts, Christian
sting Owenhart, Dusty Rhodes, Matt Hardy, Kurt Henning, any other
names out there. I mean, Jesse Ventura comes to mind.

(01:13:52):
I don't think he held the world title.

Speaker 4 (01:13:55):
Can I just break in with something here.

Speaker 3 (01:13:57):
Yeah, of course Andre did hold the world title, so
did Peda. There's the person who sent that in as
an email said that it really it almost didn't count
because it was so short. I don't know if that's
really a fair thing to say. I think if you
win it, you win it. But it's it's a fair thing.
DeBiase bought it. So but yeah, good clarification. I mean
I should have done that when I made the list,

(01:14:17):
and I did in my block pointed that out.

Speaker 4 (01:14:19):
Well, yeah, thing, you know, saying he was never in
w w A. So that's kind of you know, it's
kind of unfair to decide on him one way or
another based on that. Let's see. I mean, I could
you can make a good case for for Ted Dibiassi
maybe should have held at one point.

Speaker 6 (01:14:35):
Yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 4 (01:14:36):
I don't know, if you know Roddy Piper, I don't
know if he ever needed to hold the w W T.

Speaker 3 (01:14:40):
I think it would have hurt him because he would
have had to lose, and he never lost.

Speaker 4 (01:14:45):
Well he lost, but very very infrequently and not on television.

Speaker 3 (01:14:50):
So yeah, no, Piper doesn't work as champion because I
think he was also the type of agitating heel who
worked best when if you give him the world title,
there's a different expectation, And especially in that era in
the eighties, there was just a different way people looked
at world champions, and I think people would have started
picking apart his flaws rather than looking at his strengths.

(01:15:12):
I think there's some wrestlers on this list where if
they became world champion, if people scrutinize them at a
different level than they would otherwise. I think, you know,
it's one thing to be a good senator, and then
when you decide to run for president, all of a sudden,
people start really looking differently at you know, your judgment
and do we want you to have this kind of
power in those executive powers and that type of thing.
So with wrestlers, I mean, you know, I look at

(01:15:33):
that list. I mean Greg Valentine was perfect guy to
feud with Tito Santana for the IC title, perfect guy
to carry take team matches with British Beef, take against
the British Bulldogs in an underrated series of matches in
WWF history. You know, Dusty Rhodes wasn't he wasn't a
world title level guy when he was in WWF, and
he have held plenty of NWA world titles, and I
think Kurt Henning is hime people's list, but I think

(01:15:53):
they look back on him through childhood eyes. I mean,
Kurt Henning had a nice match with Ric Flair on
the second episode of R whatever. It was very early on,
but and he had a nice match with Brett Hart.
You know, three stars plus, but he wasn't a four
star worker, he wasn't a four star interviewer. And by
the time he got to WWF, he was heavy drinker.
I don't think it was long before he's into the pills.

(01:16:14):
He had the back problems and cashed in on the insurance.
I don't know. I just don't look at him as
somebody who it was as you know, you live through
if you live through the era in real time with
adult eyes on the business, there was absolutely no reason
to take the belt off of Hogan or anybody and
put it on handing given the type of promotion WWF
was pushing at the time, and I don't think Penning
ever brought his a game for any sustain period of

(01:16:35):
time in the WWF. And I loved him in the
AWA I thought he was we would have been my
top draft pick right before he went to WWF. I
thought he had tremendous upside, and he disappointed me once
he got there.

Speaker 10 (01:16:50):
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Speaker 4 (01:18:04):
I mean, yeah, I could see that, but I basically
don't see anybody in the in the whole two thousand
to twenty or nine decade that should have held the
WW title that didn't.

Speaker 3 (01:18:16):
You know what I'm saying, just because everybody held almost
everybody held it, Yeah, exactly, Yeah. I mean if you
look back, I mean, I think Matt Hardy is somebody
who you could say, well, you know, I mean, he
might have been somebody you could have done something with.
But Stephan McMahon didn't really get the version one gimmick.
And I think that's when Matt was at his peak

(01:18:36):
of being able to then reach another level. I think
he was at a certain level WWE looked at him
at being at a certain level, and I think that
was the moment in time that they had the best
chance that they would have gone with him and elevated
him that I think it had the best chance to work.
I'm not saying it was ninety percent chance it would work,
but I think I was his best chance. And I
think there are couple other times that might have worked out.

(01:18:56):
But I think, you know, I mean, he was somebody
I think fans would of liked to have seen at
least get a pay per view main event singles world
title shot. And I don't remember Matt Hardy ever being
in a main event world title match, you know, kind
of like Jerry Lawler. I mean he maybe he did.
You remember Matt actually getting world title single shots.

Speaker 4 (01:19:15):
I want to say that he might. He might have
gotten one on TV.

Speaker 3 (01:19:19):
I think I know he had the big and it
did good in the ratings. The cruiserweight match with Raymond Spiroo,
when they kind of passed Matt off as a cruiserweight,
which I thought was pretty ridiculous, both because Matt wasn't
that small and he didn't wrestle in a cruiserweight style.
You know, it just didn't make any sense. But I
think WWE was so hung up on looking at Matt
and Jeff as a high flying tag team, they thought, oh,

(01:19:40):
it makes sense now, is Matt the single to put
him in a cruiserweight I didn't think it did at all,
But then I've been a proponeer over the years of
Ricky Steamboat or you know, being somebody who would step
up and be or step down or up however you
look at it, and be a cruiser weight just to
add credibility to the division, because rick was a small heavyweight.
And I think all you would have to do to
get a cruiserweight division over, have your top some of

(01:20:02):
your top main event guys who have fought for the
heavyweight title, who are main event caliber people, just fight
for the cruiserweight title. It doesn't have to be a
young guys title, it doesn't have to be a mid
carters title. Just have somebody a rich Steamo type of
his era step in to do that. But that said,
I still think Matt Hardy just seemed too big and
it just seemed like a weird, weird matchup. But that's
that's a match that stands out as one of the

(01:20:24):
It was a good. It did well in the ratings too.
The main event Matt Hardy against Rape Mysterio. I think
maybe the only time the cruiserweight title was the main
event on a WWE TV show.

Speaker 4 (01:20:33):
Also, well yeah, it also had Ray Masterio in it, so.

Speaker 3 (01:20:37):
Yeah, yeah, well that's my point too. You know, Ray
new and it was smart. I mean, if you're if I,
if I got a percentage cut of Ray Misterio's career income,
I would have told him, make yourself a heavyweight even
though you're small. Don't settle for being a cruiserweight because
the reality is you're not going to make the type
of money the way WWE promotes. But if I'm a
promoter and I want to make the most money, Raymisterio

(01:20:59):
is a great, great anchor for a cruiserweight division if
you want that division to become a something that people
grow up with and and and and a couple of
generations later. It's as much of an institution as the
Intercontinental title is. To people who grew up watching wrestling
in the eighties and nineties.

Speaker 4 (01:21:15):
All right, here here is one for you. But I
think I know the answer to this one. Let's luger.

Speaker 3 (01:21:21):
What's that an answer? To oh somebody who who deserved
a world title.

Speaker 4 (01:21:27):
Well, I mean the only way that that would that
that surlom would have worked is if they had had
Luger won the world title. Yeah, you know, back back
at back at SummerSlam in ninety three, after all that
build up.

Speaker 3 (01:21:37):
Yeah yeah, I was there for that at that Summer Slam,
and I still I just I laugh even looking back
at the fact that Lex Luger. They had the celebration already.
They had the confetti, the music, the patriotic music, everything.
They acted like he won, like that he achieved his goal,

(01:21:59):
and you know, he won by count out, but they
celebrated like you won the world title. It was the
It was just the dumbest thing ever, because you know,
winning by count out is you know, it's the the
old kiss your sister finish. It's like, there's nothing to
celebrate when your goal was to walk out as world champion.
But he looked like such a buffoon celebrating like he
had accomplished his goal of a lifetime, when in fact,

(01:22:19):
winning by count out is one of the most crushing
ways that you can possibly end a world title match
if you're a baby face challenger, because it means you're
walking out without the title. I was just that that
being in the building for that especially, it was just
was it was just crazy. I thought I was. I
thought I was going to the coronation a Lex Luger
that night, just like I was at the coronation of
Sting when Sting beat Rick Claer in Baltimore, and I

(01:22:39):
was there for that for Stink's first world title. I
thought it was a coronation of of h of Lex
Luger and the whole Lex Express UH, and they were
going to build around it, But there was Jerry Jarrett
later chronicled it in the UH in the Long Torch
Talks we did when he was very much behind the
scenes in ww WE at that time, and he said
there was an internal battle between whether they should go
with Brett or Lex, and the people who were pushing

(01:23:00):
Vince to go with Brett one out.

Speaker 4 (01:23:02):
Well, yeah, and I did. There was the famous torch
talking months before that happened with Jim Cornett and you
asked him about about the storeline and Cornette said, boy,
you know, Luver's gonna look like I played a warm
piss if he doesn't win that title.

Speaker 3 (01:23:16):
Yes, and that's pretty much what he looked like. Yeah,
Jim Cornette's description wasn't what was this quite? Yes, it was.
It felt like they were the confetti. They were raining
warm piss on everybody when everybody was celebrating that. It
just boy, that was weird. Pat. My final subject for
you today, Kurt Angle coming back in January. He's been

(01:23:38):
sort of away. Absence makes urcrow fun. What should they
do with Kurt Angle at the beginning of the here,
let's say they're competent and uh and are capable of
getting the most out of Kurt Angle at this point.
What's a good way to bring Kurt Angle back and
take advantage of what level should he be pushed when
he comes back? Given the landscape right.

Speaker 4 (01:23:56):
Now, Okay, give him a landscape, give them it. Apparently
they're not gonna They're not in any sort of rush
to get Rob Van Dams his rematch with Jeff Hardy.
I think what happens is Angle comes back and you know,
and he has to go through the entire the entire heel,

(01:24:17):
you know, Fortune Immortal, whatever the hell. Anybody who can
stand up and wrestle before he can get his hands
on Jeff Hardy, and that can take. You know that
could take months or in TNA weeks and and you know, eventually,
I guess you if you can hold out that long,
you have a pay per view with it, just go
for around. Kurt Angle gets a title shot at Jeff Hardy.

(01:24:40):
Kurt Angle has never beaten Jeff Hardy, at least not
in TNA. And you know, point out that they had
a thirty minute draw on pay.

Speaker 3 (01:24:46):
Per view and yep, yeah, I think too. This is
an example to an extent. I mean, Kurt has an
entirely I don't even know when the last time he
was on TV and wrestle, but it's an example of
how I think it can work if you have a
top level star go away for a while. You know,
if WWE did this and they had a rotation of talent,

(01:25:07):
you know, the mandatory time off six weeks twice a year,
twelve weeks once a year. I think it does having
them go away for a while and then return. It
makes you more excited to see, Okay, it's a fresh
start for this wrestler. And I don't think you have
to make a big deal, a big ordeal out of
every mid carter taking time off. You know, if gold
dust or William Regill take time off, you don't have
to even address it. Or Chris Masters, he's on his

(01:25:30):
twelve week kit, you don't have to talk about it.
But for the top top guys, I think you go Hey,
part of WWE in their wellness policy is you can
go ahead and acknowledge it on TV, say our top
guys have an off season, and we rotate him, and
we you know, make occasional exceptions when somebody has an
ongoing world title reign, but otherwise we don't. And Randy

(01:25:52):
Orton's twelve week hiatus is coming up, and so he
either has to win the world title or or this
is the last chance to win the world title before
a hiatus, and or even if that's not build ahead
of time, when someone's about to return, you can talk about, Hey,
this guy's you know, whether it's twelve, eight weeks, six weeks, whatever, Hey,
this guy's almost coming back from his his off season,
and we're excited to see what he brings, you know,

(01:26:14):
what his what his mission is at the beginning of
the year. Now that he's had some time off, there's
a way to work that in and give people a
little bit of a breather from some of these top
stars where you kind of have this feeling like, oh,
Kurt Angle, the things have changed since he's been gone,
and the landscape's changed a little bit, and now he
feels fresh being put back in that spot.

Speaker 4 (01:26:33):
And I'm feeling I got a feeling way we're going
to get a demonstration as to how that works in
a few in a couple of weeks when they start
hyping the return of Triple h, right, getting the feeling
that I'm getting the feeling that he won't come back
before the first of the year, because you know that's
that's when business starts picking up and there's no need
for him to be back, so they can spend the

(01:26:53):
next few weeks you know, Triple Ah is coming back soon,
and you play the highlight packages and you and all
that everybody that ye and you leave people wondering, well, what.

Speaker 6 (01:27:02):
Does he look like?

Speaker 4 (01:27:03):
What's happened to him after they did the same thing
back in two thousand and two, I think, but.

Speaker 3 (01:27:08):
Yep, yeah, no, I think it can be a promotional
tool that is looked at as a negative but actually
can be turned into a positive, which is being without
somebody for a while, you know, not being able to
utilize somebody for a while. Anyway, If anybody's got a
question for us to answer here on the Pat McNeil
edition of The People with Your Torch VIP after show
on Wednesdays, post your question in the thread at the

(01:27:32):
top of the Pat McNeil zone in the VIP forum.
Just go to the VIP forum, click on Pat mcnil'
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Wednesday live cast Wednesday, so you can post your question
in there if you've got something most specifically that you
want mister Pat McNeil to answer. I've had That's all
I've got today. How about you, folks.

Speaker 4 (01:27:51):
We will do this again next Wednesday, and we'll just
tune in Sunday night because I don't think I'll be
able to get out of this one.

Speaker 3 (01:28:00):
Sound good?

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