15 YRS AGO: Keller & Parks talk Underachievers & Overachievers in history, whether Miz stay heel, should Orton stay babyface, Shane McMahon

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Speaker 2 (01:06):
Now.

Speaker 3 (01:06):
PW Torch and Speaker bring you the Wade Keller Pro
Wrestling Podcast.

Speaker 4 (01:15):
Fifteen years ago.

Speaker 1 (01:16):
This week, the W Torch columnist Greg Parks joined me
on the flagship, just like he did this week on
our new flagship, and we took live calls talking about
overachievers and underachievers and professional wrestling. Also why Nexus lost
the Day Team titles, the treatment of Vicky Guerrero, Would
Mizby turned babyface soon, should rand Yorton remain a babyface?
Shane McMahon's WWE Future Celebrities in the Hall of Fame,

(01:39):
TLC's SmackDown World Title match, and an idea for the
Elimination Chamber. And then in the previously vt IP exclusive
after show, we talked about SmackDown and the lack of
synergy with Raw TLC's main event, and looked ahead to
the following year's WrestleMania. So let's get to it. This
is the wayde Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast fifteen years ago
flashback for Thursday, December twenty fifth, twenty twenty five. Merry Christmas, everybody,

(02:02):
Thanks for listening.

Speaker 3 (02:03):
As always, wept.

Speaker 4 (02:10):
Welcome to the PW Torch Live Cast. I am host
Wade Keller, editor and publisher of the Pro Wrestling Torch
newsletter and PW Torch dot Com, joined today by Torch
columnist Greg Parks. Greg, how are you doing today?

Speaker 5 (02:25):
I'm so wild? Thanks Waden, very good.

Speaker 4 (02:28):
We invite phone calls as always, it's a caller driven show,
and if you want to join us here on the
show early on, we're going to get the calls right away.
The number is six four six seven two one nine
eight two weight. If you're listening to us live and
you have a question that you want us to answer,
but you can call into the show, you can email
us right now and I'll be monitoring the email at
PW torch livecast at gmail dot com. That's PW Torchlivecast

(02:53):
at gmail dot com. I will be monitoring that email
as we go. And of course we have a chatroom
going if you're listening to us live, So go ahead
in log into blog talk radio dot com splash Pro
dash Wrestling dash Torch and click on the chat session button.
I think it's green and and you'll be uh, you'll
be able to interact with other people who are also
listening to us live during the show. Greg, we've we've

(03:17):
asked everybody so far this week their thoughts on it.
I'll do the same to you your thoughts on the
Slammy Awards edition of Raw and in particular the final
push to get people to order TLC and the latest
chapter in the John Cena Wade Barrett situation with Sena
being rehired. Thumbs up or thumbs down?

Speaker 5 (03:36):
Which one do you want me to answer first?

Speaker 4 (03:38):
I kind of I started broad and narrowed in all
the way down to Sna Barrett and okay, down on that.

Speaker 6 (03:43):
Okay, Sena Barrett. I think this week it was a
thumbs down for me only because I was hoping that
they would kind of push this Sena out of WUE
on for a little longer. I know that's probably foolish
for me to think that, And you know, I shouldn't
be surprised that he's back in the fold so quickly.

(04:04):
I mean, he didn't even miss a week, you know,
he didn't even miss a week to sell it, So
I shouldn't be surprised. But I think they could have
done so much more. And I feel like we say
this after about every big angle that they rushed through.

Speaker 5 (04:15):
They could have done so much more with this.

Speaker 6 (04:17):
I am slightly intrigued by the rest of Nexus walking
out on David O'tanga in the main event against John Cena,
especially since they were all on Otunga side the previous week.
You know, So I think the struggle between Barrett and Otanga.
It seems to me that's going to become the such

(04:38):
a focus of Nexus once Barrett and Sina's feud is over,
and that could be at TLC. I don't know that
that's going to, you know, keep things up. I don't
know that there's a lot of clamor by fans to
turn No Tongue of babyface, which is I assume what
would happen if Barrett No Tongue feuded, But you know

(05:01):
the John Seena thing, Otunga losing again, the scene of
so quickly. O'tongua has never really been books to be
anything in the ring, and I know WWE is wary
of putting him in a match, you know, for any
length of time because of his limitations in the ring,
and you know how much of a novice he is
as far as pro wrestling goes.

Speaker 5 (05:22):
But you know, here and there.

Speaker 6 (05:24):
You got to have him get an effective win. I mean,
especially if you're going to book him to feud with
Wade Barrett, who has been one of the main adventors
on Round the past few months. So you know, I
don't really know how that's gonna turn out, because they
have made o'tanga looks pretty weak in the ring, you.

Speaker 4 (05:41):
Know, with the thing that you said, Greg, and I
agree with you. I wonder if they're not going to
write a storyline that leads to a tongua actually with
the tail between his legs going back in to going
back into nexas. I could see this being kind of
a everybody knows the couple who break up and then
they get together again, and the next time you see
him broke up and the three days later they're back
together again. I wonder if we won't see a little

(06:03):
bit of that with Otanngua and Barrett, because I don't
know that Otanuka is ready to break out on his
own and be taken seriously as a threat to Barrett
or live up performance wise to that pressure. And at
the same time, you know, I don't know that you
want to get rid of him entirely either, So if
he breaks off from the Nexus, there's not really a
natural feud for him where he would fit in, So
I wouldn't be shocked either. Either they send him back

(06:25):
to developmental hope he gets better in a year or
two we see him again, or he maybe finds a
way to talk his tae between his legs and kind
of submit to Waid Barrett. I hope they explain a
little bit better what Barrett did could get everybody on
Nexus on his side because O'tongua had been the guy
who they kind of the rest in Nexus. We're kind
of listening to and saying, yeah, you got a good point.
And maybe Barrett has overstepped his authority and thinks he's,

(06:48):
you know, he's everything that he gets all the credit
for any success in Nexus has had. I felt like
they kind of leaped chapters on a number of storylines,
and one of them was, Yeah, why did everyone just
turn inside with Barrett just because just because Barrett was
willing to reinstate? Seen know, why turn out Otunga like that?

Speaker 6 (07:03):
Well? And you know that that happened near the very
end of the show, so that could easily be explained
next week. And you know, talking about booking Otongua kind
of going back to Nexus and back to Barrett with
his tail between his lives. Normally, I wouldn't be an
advocate of booking a wrestler that way because I mean
that can damage his character.

Speaker 5 (07:20):
And you know, we talked about you know, this is
still brought.

Speaker 6 (07:22):
Up, how Seamus ran from Nexus in that backstage angle
they film, and how much that hurt seamous.

Speaker 5 (07:30):
Yeah, I mean.

Speaker 6 (07:30):
That was literally running with the tail between his life.
But here we're talking about a tongue of more figuratively
of course. But you know, I don't think it would
be so bad in this case, because he is one
of the few characters in Nexus that has been well developed,
that has been pretty defined, especially in comparison to the
other ones. I mean, really, the only ones we know
anything about are Barrett and Otunga. So I think this

(07:52):
would just add another layer to o'tongue's character in Nexus,
and I don't think it would necessarily be.

Speaker 2 (07:58):
A bad thing.

Speaker 4 (08:00):
I will say Greg that I think you actually need
to have a tail in order to literally run away
with the tail between your legs. But otherwise, good point.

Speaker 6 (08:08):
Okay, so he's okay literally running figuratively with a thank you?

Speaker 2 (08:12):
Yeah, how about that?

Speaker 4 (08:13):
Very good. I can't spend years criticizing announcers for misusing
literally and not call you out on it, but I
totally running away factor is there. I thought it was interesting.
We have a story at at PW Torch dot com
on this that the miss if I may say PW
Torch without offending Pat McNeil that the mis interview uh
that he did talking about is the demon girl and

(08:35):
how they managed to get hold of her, because you know,
for a while I was wondering it was she like
an actor from the beginning, you know, was she planted
in the crowd and because they you know, somehow somebody
knew that she could do that face and they had
the cameras ready to focus on her and to the best,
I haven't seen that story out there, so I'm assuming
it was the camera just happened to catch her. And
then Mis said in an interview at IGN dot com

(08:56):
this week that he said, I guess the dad of
Kayley actually called because the next week in my promo
I talked about the fan reaction being one of shock
and anger, and I showed her picture again. So her
dad called up and said that she was more than
willing to come back if we ever needed her. So,
of course, being wwe like we are, we totally left
at the opportunity and took the reins. So I was

(09:18):
kind of wondering what the backstory has on that sounds legitimate.
I thought one thing that I kind of jumped out
to is used the term address in my address, I
talked about the fan reaction. He didn't say promo. I
wonder if we have a new style book rule for
wrestlers where they're not allowed to say the word promo
because that sounds too much like wrestling or something. The
vincent man, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (09:39):
You can support us on Patreon and get these shows
with ads and plugs removed, the Weight Keller Prosing podcast,
Weight Keller Prosing post shows and the PW Torch daily
cast throughout the week with ads and plugs removed, plus
a few bonus VIP shows throughout the month for just
four dollars and ninety nine cents a month. Check it
out patreon dot com slash PW Torch v ip. That's

(10:01):
patreon dot com slash PW toorchvip, and you can also
upgrade to other tiers and receive even more benefits through Patreon. Also,
Miss continues to do a great job on media interviews.
I was putting together hoping to get up posted before
the show today, but didn't quite finish my Thursday power
list that I'm putting up at Wade Keller dot com

(10:21):
every Thursday and so that'll be up shortly after the
show concludes, and I've got mis penciled in as number
one this week. And one of the reasons is he
just keeps doing a great job on media interviews. He's
really media savvy. And I think even though he didn't
have a great standout match this week or just statement
promo that lasted several minutes in the ring, I thought
the way he played off Kaylee and the job he's

(10:44):
done on mainstream interviews has been exactly what prinsic Man
wants out of somebody representing his company. And one other
quote from the IGN interview Greg, he said, I don't
think anyone expected it. I certainly didn't expect it at all.
Usually when titles change, there isn't much media, so I
wasn't expecting anything. I want people who normally don't talk
to us and normally don't say anything to us to
come in and say, you know, this kid has something.

(11:05):
We want to talk to him, and he's got a
good story, so we want to learn more.

Speaker 4 (11:09):
And it is legit. It's a real story. It's like
a movie and I'm living it. And Greg, have you
been surprised and also kind of impressed with mis and
the type of mainstream publicity he's gotten. I'm not convinced
mainstream publicity adds up to a ton of change in
business or ratings, but it's certainly not a bad thing
if you have somebody like misrepresenting you. Are you surprised
that the level of interest people have shown in him.

Speaker 6 (11:30):
I am, and Miss saying that, you know, it's like
a movie. I can't wait till, you know, twenty years
from now when we have WWE films presenting us with
the mis story from real world to a real world
champion or something like that. So that's something to look
forward to down the line. I'm sure he planted the
seed right there with that, you know. And it's surprisingly

(11:51):
how savvy Is is in these interviews, because you know,
when you first came in and you know, with all
the backstage stories about the hazing and stuff like that,
he just the character he plays on TV just seems
like it's it's it's him, you know, it's they always
say it's the best characters are played by the person
turned up, you know, with the volume turned up. But

(12:12):
the Miss character doesn't seem like it's a stretch for him.
And I think, you know, if you'd asked me a
few years ago what the miss would be like in
mainstream promos or mainstream media interviews, I would have said
nothing to similar to the way that Ken Anderson has done.
And lately Anderson has done a little better. But you know,
he had a reputation of putting his foot in his
mouth during during media interviews, and I kind of felt

(12:34):
like that was the way mis would have been. So
that's why his performance and how media savvy he is
in the right way he is just reading the quotes
in the interviews.

Speaker 5 (12:44):
You don't even need to.

Speaker 6 (12:44):
Hear him, you know, he comes across it. It's so
professional and so engaging, and I think that's a lot
a lot of the reason why how the media has
picked up on this. You know, it might have been
one or two stories initially, and you know people got
to reading and say, wow, this is A is an
interesting story and B this guy sounds like an interesting guy.

(13:04):
And that's what makes news today in the entertainment world.
So I think I'm surprised not only at the level
of media attention, but how media savvy really is.

Speaker 4 (13:16):
Very good. I want to throw a quick plug out also,
your chat with James Caldwell is now published at pw
torch dot com and of course on the pw Torch apps.
Every Thursday or Friday YouTube get together and chat back
and forth in text format and discuss some current events
in wrestling this week and it just was posted you
talk about Raw with James, also seen as rehiring the

(13:37):
TLC pay per view, ideas on how to book Triple
H's return, and the possibility of Miz versus Morrison perhaps
at the Royal Rumble if John Morrison becomes number one
contender on Sunday, and then also some thoughts on the
fourth season of n XT. So I encourage everybody to
check that out. It's a weekly feature and it's at
pw torch right now. In the main listening. We have

(13:59):
a six people on hold. We had seven a minute ago.
Let's start going to calls and begin with area code
four point five. Thanks for calling. You're on the PW
Torch Live cast with Way Keller and Greg Parks.

Speaker 7 (14:11):
What's going on?

Speaker 8 (14:11):
Guys?

Speaker 7 (14:11):
Is johnath diffrom San Francisco.

Speaker 4 (14:13):
And Jonathan could hear from you? What's on your mind?

Speaker 7 (14:16):
Just three quick questions? Or do you guys have any
plans on having a Thanksgiving issh type of best best
show like you guys did for Thanksgiving, I mean for Christmas.

Speaker 4 (14:27):
Of course, yes, I plan to. James Caldwell will not
be available to introduce the show and put and start
the archive. So depending on my schedule, which right now
looks good and I'm trying to, I think I'll be hosting,
so I think I should be around the home office
to do it. So I would say it's about an
eighty five percent chance that we'll have a that will
keep our streak alive and have at least a live

(14:49):
introduction in a few minutes before going to a special archive.

Speaker 7 (14:53):
Well, that sounds good. Hopefully you guys do the round
table with you, Bruce and and the guy that head
of the Observer, because I know you guys was introducing
that in the last episode, but then and then he
goes to it, so oh okay, you guys.

Speaker 4 (15:10):
Yeah, I'm not you know, I played it out and
I wasn't sure how far into that we got. So
I'll check for that and see if we maybe we'll
just complete what we started last time.

Speaker 7 (15:18):
All right, awesome, awesome. In the last two questions, UH,
I was watching uh the uh on demand with w
W and they had they had this question who was
the overachievers and who are the underachievers? Who do you
guys think are overachievers and underachievers when it comes right

(15:38):
down to you know, the letter of the words.

Speaker 4 (15:41):
Greg, there's a column idea for you, I Greg, I'll
let you. I'll let you start with it if you
if you've got any any names that come to mind,
and I'll put some thought into it.

Speaker 6 (15:51):
Twus you talk, uh, under receivers, no retrievers, just generally
on the roster.

Speaker 7 (15:58):
Jonathan just uh, just like in overall, just like in
all the wrestling from you know, from the beginning, well
not from the beginning, because God forbid we all wasn't
back then, but maybe from the seventy nine to you
know to present day, just you know, to flop the
guys that flopped in, the guys that you know kind
of overachieved and really didn't get to the main event

(16:19):
for some reason.

Speaker 4 (16:19):
And Jonathan ultra on, I think there's kind of two
categories to break this down. The actual actual underchieves and
overachievers in the sense that they it was up to
them what they did. And then I think there's also
the category of people who were under pushed or overpushed
who over who who? It wasn't their fault, And I
think you're probably honing in on whoo who succeeded more

(16:42):
than perhaps there than people thought they would early in
their careers. That kind of what you're going at. And
the same thing underachiever who showed up and people said,
this guy's going to be a star, He's got all
it takes, and they kind of petered out because of
a lack of performance or a lack of yeah, just
a lack of success or whatever. So Greg, yet you
got to.

Speaker 6 (17:05):
Well, being a younger fan, obviously my bread and butter
is the nineties and uh, you know, maybe ladies my
expertise sort of. So you know, one of the big
underachievers I think, uh would be Lex Lugar, especially in
the in the WWF when he was given giant push
of the Lex Express and you know, for whatever reason

(17:28):
just never really got over.

Speaker 5 (17:30):
He was the big the big surprise.

Speaker 6 (17:33):
In the in the Monday Night War is the Monday
Night Throw, the first episode where they brought him in,
and you know, you could argue that even from there
he he underachieved a B in WCW I mean, he
was a world title level contender at that time, but
he was never a guy who had the charisma or
put the butts in the seats and could really get
over his other I mean, he had chances, he just couldn't.

(17:55):
He just couldn't make it over the hump.

Speaker 5 (17:57):
And you know, he was putting a bad.

Speaker 6 (17:58):
Position in the w w F as kind of the
next Hult Coogan. So you know there was there is
a level that maybe he could argue that he was
over pushed, and I think as far as overachiever, you know,
we're in the middle of a miss Tyler run. I mean,
this is the guy from uh, the real world who
acted like a goofball. I'm told I never watched the

(18:20):
Real World. I try to stay away from m TV,
but you know, even on Tough Enough, he came across
as kind of a bootball. And for him to be
where he is right now when he was just getting
go away heat when he first debuted is the host
of SmackDown.

Speaker 5 (18:35):
I just think that speaks volumes for it.

Speaker 6 (18:38):
Stick to it this and it's hard work in WWE.
And the fact that you know he was gonna get
over and he was gonna do whatever he could to
get noticed not only by the fans, but by creative
as well.

Speaker 4 (18:49):
I gotted on a few names, and I mean I
would meet almost look at a roster from you know,
every five years, just kind of look at the top
stars and or the rosters to my memory, for a
lot of people. But Stein came to mind as both
an underachiever and an overachiever. I think he underachieved when
it came to developing his promos over the years. I
think that was a big disappointment. I was there in
nineteen ninety when he won the WW title from Rick Flair,

(19:13):
and it felt in that building like the coronation of
a new era. We all had very high hopes that
he was going to be kind of the next Hulk Hogan.
He had all the pieces. He had, great athleticism, great
spring in his legs, a great look, and he was
but you know, he's part of a dysfunctional company. WW
was always dysfunctional. But I don't think he overachieved in
performance in the ring. Once he moved away from wrestling

(19:35):
Ric Flair, he really stalled out. He was a real
disappointment and on promos he was I mean, his mind
was just was never there. It was always like the
mic was put in front of him and he was
still he was thinking about what to make for dinner,
and it was unprofessional. However, I think he overachieved in
the sense that despite all his drawbacks, he made a
tremendous amount of money, never going to WWF and always

(19:56):
had nice guaranteed contracts and really made a lot of
money for somebody who frankly underachieved when it came to
I think the potential talent he had both on the
mic in and the ring, Rob van Dam I would say,
is an underachiever given his skill level. I think that
there's a little bit of a I'm too cool for school,
I'm not going to play any corporate game, and he
sometimes rubbed people the wrong way, sometimes acted unprofessionally, and

(20:19):
sometimes he was looked down upon because he wasn't willing
to play the corporate games. You can judge that how
you will, but I think RBD had so much potential
and consistently, including this last year, has mostly underachieved, and
I don't think it's it's you can make excuses and
blame other people for it. There comes a point where
you have to show respect for somebody who built the
company that you're working for, and you you don't show

(20:41):
them up. And you know, you play the game a
little bit because you respect that the situation you're placed
in is something that you're taking advantage of. And I
don't think Rob van Dam has done that. When you
know ECW visited WWF, he gave off vibes that said,
you know, I don't care what the rules are around here.
I'm Rob van Dam and I don't play by anybody's roles.

(21:02):
And you know, that's cool if you're on your own
business or you want to do your own thing, but
when you're part of another structure, I think he's hurt
himself and I think he's cheated the fans out of it,
out of some good matches and good promos. I think
he's been somewhat lazy on promos. And frankly, he's not
mister four star machine. He might have a five star
frog splash, but he's the king of three and a
half star Magmas, So I'd label him a potential underchiever.

Speaker 3 (21:26):
Need an extra dose of positivity in your wrestling podcasts?
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(21:47):
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Speaker 4 (22:31):
There's people like Ginderak and O'Hare. You know, you looked
at him and you said, man, they got all the
potential in the world. They're good athletes, or they seem
like they are good sized, good look and they kind
of petered out. So you know, there's a lot of
people every few years who come along who you could
pluck out like that way. Same thing I said about
Rob van Dam applies to Jeff Hardy. I would say
he's overachieved for the lifestyle he lives, but he's underachieved

(22:52):
for the talent and charisma that he has. Raymisterio biggest
overachiever period, just because he's a very small man in
a big man's business, and he's got tremendous talent and
tremendous athleticism, great charisma, that great personality and in factor,
and he has risen the occasion and really overcome a

(23:13):
lot of barriers and broken down a lot of barriers
to be a top drawing, main event heavyweight title contender.
And I can't believe I'm saying that I saw him,
you know, back in Gosh, I don't even know what year.
It was, the early nineties and Tijuana, Mexico at the
Bowl Ring and he was, you know, this thin, high
flying guy. I've seen all the old Lucha tapes. Obviously
we saw him in the in the Triple A shows.
If you're a nineties fan and his early ww years.

(23:36):
All of that, I never thought that he would be
a mainstay made eventor in WWE through this point. So
he's there on the opposite end of the spectrum under well,
sort of opposite undertaker. I'd consider him an overachiever. He
was a guy who was given a gimmick that easily
could have petered out after a few years, you know,
and gotten stale or gotten to formula, and instead he's

(23:56):
reinvented himself a few times and the ring advanced. He's
been true, you know, other than the biker gimmick, which
was an experiment at the time that maybe made sense
for the reasons that he had, but going back now
to the dead man character and finding a way to
milk it this deep into his career and to earn
back a lot of the money he's probably lost in

(24:17):
a couple of divorces, and the fact that he's been
a leader along with Angele and Chris benwa At, introducing
some MMA and MM mentality to the matches in a
way that fits the pro wrestling genre. I think he
gets credit for overachieving because we could have been looking
back at that lame gimmick from the nineties, that peaked

(24:39):
in nineteen ninety five, and he could have been long retired,
but he's a survivor. And for the same reasons Ray
that I said about Ray, but to a lesser degree.
Sean Michaels and Brett Hart I think overachieved because I
think in the early nineties, covering their careers from the
eighties through the early nineties, we all saw them as
perennial intercontinental level guys or tag team wrestlers, and they
rose to be icons of mid nineties at a world

(25:00):
tidal level. We'd like to I'd like to see Kope
Kingston types get the opportunities that that Michael's and Brett
got to uh to overachieve. But you know, there's things
Koffee Kofey needs to do and the circumstances have to
be right for for that to happen. But so so anyway,
that that's that's a few minutes of conversation on a
short list far from complete. Uh that comes to mind, Jonathan,

(25:21):
did you have a third question for us?

Speaker 7 (25:24):
Yeah, it's just just on the topic. I think the
overachiever or underachievers is Morrison right now, because it seemed
like he doesn't take the time to you know, go
over his promo. Yeah, when he came out and and
did that whole shameless thing, he was completely bombed. It
was just like, oh, and you want to root for Morrison,

(25:44):
you know, yeah, but when you can't, when you when
you don't have the promo skills, it's like, why are
you out there? It's like, especially in the w W E,
maybe in TNA or a Triple A or something like that,
you don't need promo skills or whatever. You could just
go out there and see audience, high flight moves and
all that nonsense. But you know that that doesn't work
in the ww unfortunately. But and Sid Vicious was somebody

(26:08):
who really underachieved, especially after he broke his leg in
that nasty spot. But we don't need to go there.
But a third question, why was the Tag Team Championships
taken off of Nexus? Because I thought they was gonna
you know, because Nexus needs something. They don't have anything
right now but getting beat up by John Cena. And

(26:28):
that's and from what I can tell, at WrestleMania, you
can't have Nexus versus the Undertaker. That's because they're going
to get completely buried.

Speaker 4 (26:37):
All right, Great, Jos, Thanks for the call. Thanks for
the questions, Greg, what'd you think of the decision to
take the belts off in Nexus? Inasmuch as WW even
puts much thought into the TA titles, I thought it.

Speaker 6 (26:47):
Wasn't so much an indictment of Nexus as it was creative.

Speaker 5 (26:51):
Wanted to be able.

Speaker 6 (26:52):
To stretch out the Casla Centino comedy duo onto two
shows on Roger's SmackDown. Seen SmackDown deabbling a bit more
into the comedy, uh the with horn Swago re emerging
and the Swagger Eagle, and you know, even the edge
Kine stuff has had tingasi of comedy to it, so

(27:13):
you know, they seem to be exploring that a little
more on SmackDown, and I think I think the writing
team on both shows see some potential comedy segments in
Santino and Koslov a little more so than they could
have anything to do with I mean, nextus Next. If
they got the tech titles, the only segments you're gonna

(27:33):
put them in on SmackDown or are title matches. You know,
you're not gonna have a backstage segments with them doing
anything but with Shaman or with the Santino and Coslov
you can have them featured in backstage segments and comedy segments.
They don't necessarily have to be defending the titles every week.
So just their presence, I think kind of as much
as you know, these two guys who've been played as jokes,

(27:56):
kind of devalues the titles at this point, Uh, if
that's even possible. I think their presence on the shows
Smike gun Raw, I think a constant presence speaks well
as a bels. But yeah, I don't really think they
creative gave it much thought other than hey, we can
utilize these guys as comedy figures on both of our shows.

Speaker 4 (28:16):
I do want to mention since I mentioned Sting and
underachieving in his history, I did just earlier today at
Wade Keller dot com. My blog page put up an
article from five years ago. It was a cover story
I wrote in the Progressing Torture newsletter announcing or reporting
on the signing of Sting by TNA, and I put
it on my blog as kind of a contrast to
something that has said in an interview a few days ago,

(28:37):
which is he's tired of promotions emulating and copying ideas
from the past, and he says it's one thing to copy,
or he says, nobody's tried to copy WW, but people
keep trying to bring back ECW, and he says he
voices displeasure. And I thought it was interesting as a
sidebar that he was against the EB two concept apparently,
But even more so, I thought it was interesting that
as a guy sitting in the middle of a complete
recreation of WCW, which is what TNA has been from

(29:00):
the beginning, that he doesn't see that in the irony
of him saying nobody's tried to recreate WCW. That's all
TNA's done. Eighty five percent of every decision they made
has been based on trying to recreate the glory days
of WSW. So I kind of paired them together and
talked about the Sting signing in that cover story. So
if you're interested in that history of Sting signing with TNA,
and also that task quote in kind of the juxtaposition,

(29:22):
check that out at my new blog, Wadekeller dot com,
which debuted just a few weeks ago. Let's go back
to the phone lines, and thanks to those who have
held on as we've continued to talk here, and let's
go to area code five to five nine. You're on
the live cast with me Way Keller and also Greg Parks.
Please state your name and where you're from. Hey guys,
this is Steve from Kelly. Hey Steve, how's it going?

(29:43):
Pretty good? Pretty good? A couple of things real quick.
Just to ask a question about what you guys were
first talking about the Miss. Do you think now that.

Speaker 7 (29:52):
Dove has seen how he's handling the media these last
couple of weeks, do you see them maybe pushing him
as a face here pretty soon?

Speaker 4 (30:01):
Greg? It's always it's always tempting to switch somebody from
a heel to a face. You know, when John Cena
was getting booed, you know, do we turn him heel?
Now that miss seems likable and well spoken, do you
turn him? Do you turn them babyface? I mean that
does crossed my mind too. You know, at what point
do you say miss is too good? It's too likable?

(30:22):
Almost at this point in the way he's presenting himself
with mainstream media, I think they have to do one
of two things. They either have to make him a
little bit less entertaining and likable or fine, or find
a way to maybe turn a babyface and take somebody
who's a more natural heel, like a Randy Orton, and
maybe Miss creates the opportunity to turn Randy Orton heel again.
Maybe there's a double turn in the future, a Steve
Austin Brett Hart type situation.

Speaker 6 (30:43):
Your thoughts on that radio two see to me the
the mainstream media interviews that Miss is too. He is
more for people who are not wrestling fans and more
imperiate towards them who you know, Miss trying to reach
those people and try to get them to understand the
business and even become fans of people of like what
has the say, Maybe they'll tune in the launch it.
I don't think so much it's him trying to be

(31:06):
a baby face or even that you know, a lot
of wrestling fans to read the interviews Miss does uh
and and are affecting that.

Speaker 5 (31:13):
I think he's just.

Speaker 6 (31:14):
So good as a heel right now, and there's so
much potential there for, you know, to even grow further
as a heel into the main event. I mean, he's
just recently getting to the main event level, you know.
I think that's the way too early, this already start
a babyface turn you know it. I don't think the
baby face side of Raw needs it right now. You know,

(31:39):
Randy Orton is kind of fizzled as a babyface. I
think that John Cena and they that Triple A's coming
back and they can move some parts around. Of course,
I just think he's too valuable as a baby face
or a heel right now to turning baby face. And
if you did, you'd be turning him for all the
same reasons. You know, you're you're adamant against turning John
Cena heel, So it'd became kind of you know, speaking

(32:03):
out of both sides of their mouths to to see
the reaction, see what miss is doing, and turn him
babys face, but at the same time ignoring those same
characteristics and not in John Cena and not turning him here.

Speaker 1 (32:18):
Anytime you're watching WWE Raw or SmackDown or aw Dynamite
in particular, send us an email if you've got thoughts
on the show or a topic you want us to
address or a question for us. Wadekellor podcast at pwtorch
dot com, Wadkeller Podcast at pewtorch dot com. If there's
anything else going on in pro wrestling, that you want
us to address on our main podcast during our mailbank segments,

(32:41):
that same email applies Wade Keller podcast at PW torch
dot com. We invite that interaction. Let us know what
you think of what we're saying, and let us know
what you want us to talk about and ask us
specific questions. Wadekeller podcast at PW torch dot com.

Speaker 4 (32:57):
I think with with me is there is that there's
going to be the temptation because he's so well spoken
and a nice guy, probably you know, to a degree
in real life. I think, you know, speaking to what
you said earlier, Greg about some of the earlier impressions
he gave. I just think he's growing up. You know,
he's growing up before a very eyes and and you
know some people take longer and some people never do.
Sean Michaels took a long time to grow up. You know,

(33:19):
r VD may never have to a certain degree. I mean,
in certain areas of his life, he's very much a
grown up. But when it comes to kind of fitting
into the corporate environment and and then finding a way
to uh, you know, to look like he's giving it
as all and really is fully engaged in what he's
doing as opposed to that horrible first phone promo he
did after the Abyss attack, you know, which just kind
of disqualifies him from being taken real seriously about about

(33:42):
about us taking him seriously, as taking his craft seriously. Uh,
you know, missus matured and and and I think there
there's going to be at some point if he's entertaining
that temptation. But I'm with you. I think they have
to hold off and find a way to keep him,
to keep him heal orton. You said, or fizzled as
a heel. I don't know if that's that's the right phrase.
It might be overstated it because he's still getting great
pops at house shows. I think where we see him

(34:04):
coming up short and where we're in agreement is it's
just he hasn't as a lead babyface. There's not a
lot you can do with him on television, and I
think we're all looking for him to become a little
bit more likable, and it just seems like he's he's cool,
he's tough, he's a badass. We think he's you know,
he carries himself well in that respect, but as a
guy filling television time, you kind of know what you're

(34:25):
gonna get with him, and I think WWB needs somebody
with a little bit more range. And I think that's
that's the area where if you were to say he fizzled,
he fizzled in terms of lacking growth as a lead babyface.

Speaker 6 (34:35):
Yeah, And I think the fact that his heart really
is into being a baby face and it shows, Yeah,
And I think that's one of the reasons why he's
not coming off that strongly. And you know, it could
be the fact that he's done such painous things as
a heel. Yeah, it's kind of hard to accept him
as this babyface character right now, Philly. He's careful and

(34:57):
scripting his interviews not to you know, be this kind
of baby face is always sucking up with the crowd
and John Cena rah Rod type.

Speaker 5 (35:06):
They haven't.

Speaker 6 (35:06):
They haven't booked Orton to be that way. And to
their credit, because they could, they could maybe see that
Orton isn't getting over as much as they'd like to
have the baby stations to get desperate and try that
to get more of a tiget him to be a
bigger babyface, But they haven't.

Speaker 5 (35:23):
Done that, and I think.

Speaker 6 (35:24):
That's that's to their credit holding off on that, but yeah,
I think one of the major views is, you know,
in numerous media interviews he's done, he said that you know,
he is much rather be a heel than a baby
face than I think it shows.

Speaker 4 (35:37):
All right, you are listening to the PW Towards livecast.
I'm Way Keller, joined today by Progress and Towards columnists
Greg Parks. It's Thursday, December sixteenth, twenty ten. Just a
reminder if you're listening to us on iTunes or on delay,
you can join us live. We're here Tuesday through Friday
every week five thirty to six thirty Eastern, four thirty
to five thirty Central, and you can also listen to

(35:59):
us on delay. If you're joining us live by subscribing
in iTunes, just do a search for PW Torch and
subscribe to our our live cast. We're also her Mondays
Live the hour preceding RAW, which has been moving around lately,
with three of the last five weeks RAW starting an
hour early. We'll be back to the normal time this
coming Monday, UH an hour before RAW. Let's go back

(36:20):
to this phon lines. If you want to join us
at number six four, six seven, one nine a two. Waight,
that's six four six seven nine two. Wait, we now
move to aera code six zero nine. Please stake tor
name and where are you from?

Speaker 9 (36:32):
Hi guys, Nicholas Barbatti from Trent, New Jersey calling. Actually
I was one of the first callers when you guys
started this show, so I haven't had a chance to
call back since, but it I just want to let
you know. I think this show's gone to be really
great and I really appreciate you having me first of.

Speaker 4 (36:44):
All, so great, Well, thank you, thanks for being there.
And I'm beginning too, Yeah, no problem.

Speaker 9 (36:49):
My question is actually about Vicky Guerrero and I and
I asked that because for me, she's one of those
few characters on TV who I think is really captivating
and for some reason when or another, I just think
she's like one of those people that you keep watching
that she reminds me of like Cherry Martell from.

Speaker 4 (37:06):
When I was younger and stuff.

Speaker 9 (37:08):
And I just remember, like, you know, when she left
the first time from ww A. You know, they did
that embarrassing skit with her in Edge and it just
they the jokes seem so cruel, even though she had
a higher profile character and she came back, and she's
not as high up on the on the ranks, it
doesn't feel like, but there does seem to be a
little bit more respect. So I was wondering if you
knew something that has changed backstage regarding her positioning and

(37:30):
just her situation in general.

Speaker 4 (37:33):
You know, that's it's a great question. I agree with
you that they were cruel to her, you know, a
way we can't say they're still not to a degree
because Jerry Lawler did say when Vicky bragged about losing weight,
Terry says, look behind you, you might find it, you know,
sold line as to Jerry lowerism. And I don't think
anything Jerry says sounds sounds especially mean. I think Sam
Punk can sound pretty mean spirited at times to an

(37:53):
undecepary degree, and I think that's a kind of a
personality and character flaw that maybe Hillock gross and Day
maybe not. Jerry Lawler, I think, says with a little
bit more of an affection for the target of his jokes.
And I think that there is a sense that Vicky
had that they've moved on from demeaning Vicky in a
way that I thought was heavy handed and unpleasant and

(38:13):
now it seems a little more jocular, a little more
you're one of us and we're just having fun. I
agree with you on the analogy on Sherry Martell. I
think it's a good comparison. I think Vicky is one
of the best managers. She's good at ringside, she's good
on the microphone that we've seen in a long time.
She's a type of heel that if you don't like her,
do you have to wonder is that because she's doing

(38:35):
her job really well, not because she doesn't deserve a job.
And sometimes it's a line that wrestling fans lose. Jason
Paul and I disagreed on David Arket on Monday. You know,
I kind of thought David Arqutte was good at what
he was doing. He was making me not like him
and want to see him get beat up. Jason kind
of thought, no, no, he just didn't belong on the show.
It seemed disrespectful to the business that Tony was taking

(38:55):
and that type of thing. So, you know, we sometimes
there is a fine line between that. I think is
is tremendous at what she does. I don't know honestly
that WWE was conscious of how emasculating. They were to her.
I guess that's probably not the best her how just
cruel it seemed that they were to her because I
think sometimes it's just the way they are. And it's

(39:17):
sad to say, but sometimes I think they just act
on autopilot and they were really mean to her. I
don't think there was anything in particular that she did
that changed the way that she's looked at. I don't
think people ever did. Go ahead, Greg, yeah, she lost weight.

Speaker 6 (39:33):
I think that's where we're saying that we're not seeing
the number of Vicky is Fat jokes because she's loss
weight and I mean a visible amount, and we still
get the jokes, like you said, with Lawler and stuff,
but it hasn't been to that degree. And maybe that's
because they're you know, they they're respecting her for that,
or you know, like you said, it could be just

(39:54):
that she's been in it long enough to kind of
earned their respect backstage or whatever. But I think some
of it is the fact that she she has lost
a lot of weight. Yeah, I mean, she's not as
easy of a target anymore as she was.

Speaker 4 (40:06):
Yeah. See, And I always thought the way to play
Vicky Vicky's character was, and I think they could even
do it now as much as they ever did, because
losing the weight doesn't because she's lost weight. I think
this is the perfect opportunity actually to do it, which is,
have her start getting full of herself, have her start
wanting to do photo shoots and demanded me on the

(40:27):
cover of magazines and say that she's considering a playboy shoot, like,
have her go overboard in her ego. You know, there's
celebrities we've seen who go through this sometimes, you know
a reality show. You know, you see at the beginning
of a reality show, you know, Kate Goslin for instance. Ever,
you know, just looks pretty normal, you know, like your neighbor,
and then a couple of seasons in all of a sudden,

(40:48):
she's all dolled up and she got to make she's
worried about her hair and her makeup, and it's you
kind of sense the look thing has gone to her
head and everyone's going to talk about me, so I
need to look a different way, and then they kind
of glamor themselves up. I think Vicky could play off
of that reality and overdo it, and then the criticism
of Vicky wouldn't be that she's fat or ugly or
edge threw up every time he kissed her, which I
just think, come on, what you make fun of her

(41:10):
for is having her weight loss go to her head
and have her think she's something that she's a twenty
two year old model, when what she is is a
forty something mother. And so what you make fun of
her for is her seeing something different in the mirror
than everyone else sees, as opposed to being cruel to
her for simply who she is and not looking like

(41:30):
Michelle McCool. So that's my take on it. But yeah,
I don't think there was anything in particular other than
like what Greg said, maybe losing weight that changed things
in a matter of duration, and maybe the criticism of
how mean spirited they were when they're trying to attract
a women demo who and I think most of the
women who watch wrestling probably identify lookwise a little bit
more like VICKI that identify with her a little more

(41:52):
than the playboy models that fill the rest of the show.
And I think it was just maybe a realization that
is bad for business to make fun of someone on
the air who looks like our own audience.

Speaker 9 (42:02):
Yeah, I agree. And also I think it's part of
it too, is that mothers of the kids who are
just trying to get to watch it are also, you know,
not necessarily looking like the Michelle o'cools as you said.
So thanks you guys so much. I appreciate you answered
my question.

Speaker 4 (42:14):
Great Nicholas, appreciate your Collin once again, your voice hopefully
what are more than once here? Absolutely all right, take care.

Speaker 10 (42:26):
I'm Kelly Wells, host of p WT Talks NXT, the
longest running NXT podcast anywhere. Join me along with Nate Lindberg,
Bruce Lee, Hazelwood, and special guests, live every Tuesday night,
just minutes after NXT, where we cover the good, the bad,
and the ugly on the way to becoming a star
in WWE. Check us out live on YouTube or stream

(42:46):
later wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 4 (42:56):
Our number here is six four six eight eight. We've
got two people on hold. We lost a couple of
people as we've been talking the last twenty five minutes,
so if you were on hold and want to call back,
you can be third in line. Let's now go to
area code seven eight six. Please state your name and where.

Speaker 11 (43:11):
You're from Hey, Wade on you're going?

Speaker 7 (43:14):
Is Johnny from Dallas?

Speaker 4 (43:15):
Hey Johnny fro Dallas. Good hear from you. What's on
your mind today?

Speaker 7 (43:18):
I got it?

Speaker 11 (43:18):
I got three questions quick?

Speaker 12 (43:20):
Yeah you do?

Speaker 7 (43:20):
I want to play a kind of double valage.

Speaker 11 (43:22):
You think wwe pulled the plug on the the John firing.
Maybe maybe USA told him, are you guys nuts? He's
taking him off the a couple of weeks. I think
it was a whole USA telling them you're out of
your mind, taking scene out of the ear. Or you
think it was just their call.

Speaker 4 (43:36):
Uh, you know, it's a good question. I think it
was probably their call. I don't know that. I think
Vince McMahon is as aware of the risk, the ratings
risk of firing John Cena as Bonning Hammer or anybody
at NBC Universal would be. So my thinking is they
probably were going to do this all along, and and
and I don't I don't think there's let me let

(43:57):
me avoid the triple negative. I think there is a
a way they could have done what they did with
Sina more successfully using the same approach. In other words,
I don't think him being on television every week necessarily
made it an angle not worth doing in the first place.
I think, ideally if you're not worried about ratings, but
what you're really worried about is having a big pop six, eight,
twelve weeks down the line when he returns, and it's

(44:19):
all about popping a WrestleMania by rate, which maybe they
would do if they weren't answering to USA Network's desire
to be the number one network. And we can't take
two steps back to take three forward because there's just
no room for that. Maybe they would have done that,
but they didn't. But I think they set out on
this angle probably deciding from the beginning that they were
going to find a way to keep Seena on television

(44:39):
the whole time. So I don't think it was it
was pressure from the outside. I think what we saw
is what they planned, and I think they knew it
was less than perfect. I think vincic Man is smart
enough to know, Yeah, it'd mean more Sena was off TV,
like Jason powellas said, but we can't afford to do that.
So is there a way to still make this worth
doing without doing it ideally in order to preserve those

(45:01):
TV ratings? And so that's kind of my take on it, Greg,
what do you think.

Speaker 6 (45:05):
Well, the one thing Johnny's theory has going for him
is it is the end of the year, and this
is the time of year when USA likes to, you know,
try their hardest to make up for any ratings downfalls
they've had during the season to kind of prop up
that rating for the end of the year so they
can give a big twenty ten rating and you know,
say they've they've finished at number one for the year

(45:26):
and cable and it's one of the reasons why Raw
has had so many three hour shows here in the
last few weeks, because the end of the year and
USA wants to get their their total ratings up. That
could be a reason that the USA said, oh, this
is not the right time of the year for senor
to be off TV for US, you know, and they
may have hinted the WWE. But then again, you know,

(45:47):
you wonder how heavily involved the networks are in creative
like that, whether they even bother do they they give
notes at this point? You know, you always hear it
to watch two shows on DVD and commentaries. You know,
here are some of the directors, our executive producers say, yeah,
this episode. We got a couple of network notices this
and this, this this, and you wonder if if WW

(46:09):
still get step from USA or if USA just knows
what they're getting in WWE's more hands off. I would
it would be hard for me to believe that their
hands on enough to have any say as far as creative,
not just creative, but creative as far as a main
storyline like John Cena, and I would think something like
that was leaked out by now that that is what

(46:32):
caused this scene of storyline to end for what a
lot of people think is prematurely. But like you said,
ways it could have been you know, booked that way
that short from the beginning, and I made that argument
to James Colwell and our chat which is of course
posted on PW torch dot com right now, is that
you know, we talked, We sit here and talk about

(46:53):
how WW rushed through this angle in our opinion, but
it could have been booked to be only two to
three week angle in between pay per views, you know,
just could kind of sell a pay per view or
two here and there, and they never meant for it
to be anything more than that.

Speaker 4 (47:10):
When I yet right the perfection because we keep saying,
you know, oh, it's not that Vince McMahon screwed it up.
And I'm thinking, and I said this, I think maybe
Vince knew this wasn't the perfect way to do it,
but maybe it was the only way to practically do it.
And maybe that's kind of what you're saying.

Speaker 6 (47:26):
Yeah, you know, this could have This is not something
that maybe WWE said, oh, this is gonna be a
two month storyline for us to see out, and then
all of a sudden, you know, panic for whatever reason,
said Okay, we gotta get this done in two or
three weeks. It could have been built like that from
the beginning and based on the field of the feud.
While yes, every fan on the internet can think of,
oh they could have done this, this, this with Sina,

(47:48):
you know, not being in WWE anymore, it just seems
like the way the feud and the angle was built
is that it was never intended to have that much legs.

Speaker 4 (47:56):
Begin with, all right, we got four people on hold,
and Johnny, you got two more questions. Wan't you hit
us up with those two and then we'll get to
the next callers.

Speaker 8 (48:03):
Yeah.

Speaker 11 (48:03):
My second question was, do you think instead of in
the elimination chamber instead of going with the title. Best
you think it'd be a good idea to go with
the intercontinents on in the US title in the chambers
instead of going with the titles right before wrestling, As.

Speaker 4 (48:16):
You know, that's a that's a neat idea. You would
be taking a main event gimmick match and putting second
tier wrestlers in it, and you start wondering, while is
that really you know, is that really how we're going
to sell a pay per view by putting guys who
aren't typically put in a drawing card position in that spot.
But at the same time, what you do is you

(48:36):
eliminate the overexposure of too many top top guys facing
each other in a match that to some degree might
overshadow wrestlmating a little bit in the sense that it's
a lot of a lot of stars in one match
in a structure, all at once, with titles on the line.
I wouldn't even I mean, ww's not gonna do this,
but I wouldn't even mind seeing WWE pull a couple
top names from February's pay per view and not have

(48:59):
the in WWE title defended on that show and try
to see what you would draw without you know, two, three,
four of the top names, but try to get by,
like you're saying, with ic in US titles being defended
in the chamber, and then maybe WrestleMania would pop because
it had been an extra month since you had seen
the titles defended in the top starts. I mean, it's
it's something intriguing to kind of bounce around a little bit. Greg,

(49:20):
what do you think?

Speaker 5 (49:21):
It's an interesting idea.

Speaker 6 (49:23):
WW would never do it, But we know from the
yer rates that the chamber in and of itself generally
is the draw for that TAVE review. So if you have,
you know, kind of a second tier upper mid card
guys in the chamber of matches, the y rate would
be really interesting because with the chamber itself be the draw,
or is it the guys in the chamber because we

(49:44):
stow for so long that it was the chamber itself.

Speaker 4 (49:48):
Johnny your final question, Yeah, it's a.

Speaker 11 (49:51):
Quick off topic base But what do you think of
that coach tripping that play games?

Speaker 4 (49:57):
I throw the book at him. I mean, I think
you disqualify yourself from being having a job in the
NFL when when you put yourself in that position. I
you know, I don't even know what the final verdict
was on him, but when I saw the clip, I thought,
first of all, you know, I don't think he was
trying to really hurt the guy. I think it's it's
kind of an eight year old mentality, you kind of

(50:19):
instinctively think, oh, let me just kind of throw my
leg out there. I don't know. I my take is
that that was pretty serious, no matter what his intent
was and how much you know, there was no premeditation
obviously where he planned it the day before. But I
say the punishment should be pretty severe. I think you
got to established pretty firmly that nobody on the sidelines

(50:39):
should be close enough or ever tempted to interfere again
with a player in a vulnerable position. Greg any thoughts
on that subject.

Speaker 5 (50:46):
Yeah, you know, I think he probably should have been fired.

Speaker 6 (50:51):
He was suspended without pay for the rest of the year.
As I think what it would have came down to,
by the by the organization, I would have fired him.
I mean, that's that's so ridiculous. And of people are saying,
you know, spur the moment thing, and I watched it
around the horn the next day and that was what
a couple of the guys. The question was should to.

Speaker 5 (51:06):
Be fired or not?

Speaker 6 (51:07):
And I think three said he asked, the two said no,
and the two said, you know, it's a spur of
the moment thing. But I think there's even more news
coming out now that this was something that you know,
they had talked about, you know, lining the guys, not
necessarily tripping the guy, but lining the guys, lightning the
coaches and some of the extra players up on the
sideline to kind of build a wall that the gunner
would have to go around and kind of make it

(51:29):
more difficult, which you know, again you're messed with the integrity.

Speaker 5 (51:33):
Of the game with something like that.

Speaker 4 (51:34):
I thought one of the dumbest things that I heard
was was Jimmy Johnson. And I understand I've seen this
before in other realms, the amount of uh predetermined comments
and how heavily produced some of these shows are. But
so sometimes people take in opposing view because it makes
more interesting television. And I get that. So this isn't

(51:56):
so much a personal attack on Jimmy Johnson as it
is the whole production of the NFL show talking about
it should have been unanimous and felt good about because
Jimmy Johnson was in this position where he's defending him,
and the best reason he could ha had for not
suspending the guy is he's not a top player, he's
not a multi millionaire. He's got to feed his family.
And and I, you know, maybe Jimmy should be criticized

(52:17):
for that, or maybe it's just a line he gave
somewhat reluctantly because it's the role he plays. Either way,
it was one of the dumbest things I've heard on television.
I don't care what your income level is. When you
trip somebody, you deserve to be punished. And if you
can't feed your family, then maybe out to not trip
players on the field, regardless of the income level. And
I like that. The host, who's who's the lead anchor?

(52:39):
Kurt Yeah, And he replied, and I give him credit
for this. Instantly he said, well, Jimmy, if you want
to feed your family, try not tripping a player. That's
where the decision was made. And I thought that was
good responses. And Jimmy just kind of shrugged, like yeah,
I think you know, when he shrugged, I kind of
thought he kind of knew he was put in a
position to say something stupid, but anyway.

Speaker 1 (53:01):
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Speaker 4 (53:40):
Enough on that we're low on time. We got a
lot of people on old. Let's go to the next call. Johnny,
thanks for the call, and we'll go to Eric three
four to seven. Thanks for calling. Please state your name
and where you're from.

Speaker 12 (53:48):
My name is Christ. Ask two quick questions. The first
question is I'm not done and he takes all of
criticism or Inducte's celebrities into the Hall of Fame, even
though it's as occator Hall of Fame. But what do
you think of out the Boxing Hall of Fame inducting
Stavessa Stallone on the base of his jockey character. And
the second question is about Shane mcmiant, seeing as he's
very close to his father, do you, sir, see that

(54:10):
he will return to the company at some point if
he has a very high ranking position.

Speaker 4 (54:15):
Great questions, Chris. As for Sylvester Stallone, I think the
movie Rocky was so iconic, the movie so tremendous, Sylvester
Stallone so instrumental, and not just acting and putting in
a brilliant performance, but creating the movie from scratch, I
think that makes sense. I mean, I think that at

(54:35):
WW you would never do it because of the message
of the movie. But the anybody involved with the writing,
the directing, and the production of the movie, the wrestler,
I think would should be up for the Hall of
Fame for creating the best wrestling movie we've ever seen.
So I'm fine with the Hall of Fame inducting somebody
who creates something based on that sport or that entity
that does a great job with it. I think that's

(54:56):
what the Hall of Fame is for, not just the
actual participants in a pure level. So so I'm out
for that. I think inducting somebody into the Hall of
Fame because they once were a celebrity a celebrity, or
saying the national anthem or did color commentary, I mean,
that's stupid. You know, you don't do that. You don't
put someone of the Boxing Hall of Fame because they
were a guest ring announcer for a big fight. So

(55:17):
it really depends on the circumstances. But I I'm I
don't know a ton about boxing or the Hall of Fame,
but it seems like a good fit and a good
use of the Hall of Fame to me.

Speaker 5 (55:25):
Great, Yeah, I agree.

Speaker 6 (55:27):
I think that movie did so much for the sport
of boxing as far as making it recognized and making
it mormally in the streams, you know, and not only
was there one movie, but there was a lot six
or seven now I think, so.

Speaker 4 (55:39):
Yeah, Well, I don't know, but we shouldn't. I'm for
giving him credit for Rocky One without holding against him
a few of the later ones.

Speaker 6 (55:46):
Okay, well, fair enough, but ye know the fact that
you know it's it was a franchise, iconic film, like
you said, you know, and I think that's, like I said,
a lot for the sport of boxing, so I and
you know, so that's just a low is kind of
his career is intertwined with that movie. I mean when
you to this Slave to Loan, you generally think of

(56:06):
probably Rocky. I mean that such an iconic characters.

Speaker 4 (56:10):
As for Shane McMahon, you know, he's close to his
dad in certain ways. And Shane is Shane, like a
lot of people, will will always define his life to
a certain extent based on getting approval from his father.
But Shane isn't what I mean, lets to get too
deep and and and I don't have enough insight to
be too authoritative on it, but I have enough enough
insight and enough indications from talking to people over the years.

(56:31):
You know, Shane isn't exactly the ideal son to follow
in Vince's footsteps. Stephanie is more the ideal son. And
that sounds weird to say that, but Stephanie is more
and I've heard this from multiple people. Maybe this is
a better way to put it. Stephanie is Vince's daughter
in Shane is Linda's son, and we're seeing a side
of Linda that kind of you know, with the politics

(56:53):
that shows us. You know, Stephanie is also Linda's daughter.
But I don't know that because of the closeness of
Vince of Shane, that Shane will necessary to go back
to WWE. And I think it has less to do
with his relationship with Vince, to be honest, as it
does his rivalry and his really subservient position to a
certain degree to Stephanie, who's more ambitious and more driven

(57:13):
to follow in her father's footsteps. And also Triple h
in the authority that he carries as a former top
draw and the husband of Stephanie and somebody who's really
been in the ring and strapped on boots, not just
tennis shoes, and wore wrestling trunks, not just warm up suits.
I think, you know, it's Stephanie and Triple Ah who
have more to do with it. Anyway, we're long time
and we've still got more callers, So why don't we
just go to the next call and go to Airy

(57:36):
code eighty five six. Thanks for calling. Please state your
name and where you're from.

Speaker 2 (57:40):
Hey, it's Chris from upstate New York.

Speaker 4 (57:42):
How are you guys doing good? To Chris Is from
New York.

Speaker 2 (57:46):
Yeah, you guys were talking about heels and faces earlier
and kind of the decisions to turn as opposed to
not turn. Somebody you're talking, you know, Greg was talking
about Orton and I don't know, Please correct me if
I'm wrong, but everything I've ever read about Randy Orton
in terms of or heard in terms of like behind
the scenes leave me to believe that he's kind of

(58:07):
a jerk and he's not really a likable human being,
not like a character. And I think they're at least
for me, Like I don't want to give like all
fans like all credit, but I mean a lot of
that comes out in the character that you are, regardless
of who your cast to be. You know, I feel
like there's an element of that. Even really good actors,

(58:27):
there's people that you root for or you don't root for.
They could be really good at what they do, but
there still might be an element there. And with Orton,
like I thought it was cool when he when you
I think Lade you said it, as you know, we're
finally have permission to root for him.

Speaker 5 (58:41):
People have permission to root.

Speaker 2 (58:42):
For him, but I think that like that, I think
that wore off really fast. And for me, I just
think he's so much better served as a heel. He's
just every and please tell me if I'm wrong, But
everything I've ever heard is that he's kind of like
an immature jerk, and I just think he would be
better served as a heel. And and also you guys mentioned,

(59:03):
you know, all the heinous things written in the storyline.
It just makes too much sense for me for him
to be a heel.

Speaker 4 (59:09):
And I just, yeah, you know one thing, Chris, that
that backs up what you're saying and in your instincts,
and and and just kind of what we said about
him too, is Wade. Barrett in a recent interview with
The Mainstream Reporter, talked about how much help he Ney
Girl character in the interview said how much help and
what a pleasure has been working with John Cena, and
as he's such a professional and he learned a lot
from him, and he and I think I'm getting I

(59:31):
don't think I'm mixing a personage. I'm almost positive as
Barrett and he said, not so much. Randy Orton. Randy
Orton is is more distant and more cold and less
willing to help bring him along and give him advice.
And that's something that you hear, you know, and and
is Randy is Randy a jerk? I just think Randy
is is troubled, not not not in a like dangerous,

(59:53):
you know, serial killer way. I just don't think he's
quite figured out who he is yet and how to
relax and smile and and how to be confident and
likable on and off camera. And I think that's what
they played into with his heel character in uh, you
know really two thousand and nine. And I think it's
it's something that we all look at him now as
a babyface and go, not only did we have permission

(01:00:16):
to cheer him, but I thought at that point Randy
Orton had permission to embrace the fans that that cheered
him and liked him for who he was, and and
we're willing to accept him even with his faults. And
instead he seems to have gotten kind of tight and
and and and less. He hasn't loosened up, and I
think everyone's maybe that's just the best thing. No, he
just won't loosen up on or off camera. There's just

(01:00:39):
a level of uptightness and distance and to him that
it's I mean, it's interesting to watch. And yeah, he's
definitely had more incidents in his youth than we've heard recently.
In his early days in WW, either were more issues
than we've heard recently, but he just hasn't quite seemed
to get comfortable in his own skin from a from
a personality standpoint, He's obviously comfortable in his skin, you know,

(01:01:00):
literal physical standpoints. So I don't know greg any thoughts
on that.

Speaker 5 (01:01:04):
No one really to add.

Speaker 6 (01:01:05):
I mean we pretty much hit on everything.

Speaker 8 (01:01:08):
You know.

Speaker 6 (01:01:08):
Orton just he doesn't strike you as the guy who's,
you know, gonna come out and save the day as
a baby face like John Cena. And every babyface doesn't
have to be the same as John Cena. And I
think to some degree it's good that there's two top
babyfaces who are so different on Raw, being Orton and Sena.
Yet there's still something missing from that babyface persona of

(01:01:29):
Orton that just it just doesn't see much he can
get over that hump as a babyface.

Speaker 4 (01:01:34):
I think too it's worked and this is too in
rad Yorton's defense, I think it's worked against him too,
that Raw remains John Cena's brand. You know, Orton won
the world title, turned babyface, and it was still John
Cena's brand. And I think as much as it's good
to have babyfaces who aren't duplicating each other, and maybe
that was a strategy for WWE, Orton will bring in
a certain fan base, an older male fan base, and

(01:01:56):
Sena will attract the kids. The problem is is the
tone of the show and the PG era, which WWE
needs to stop reminding the eighteen to thirty five year
olds and or the eighteen to forty nine year old man.
They have to stop reminding them as a PG show.
I mean, it's like they should ban the letters PG
and not worry about the word wrestler so much because
I think wrestling is violent enough. There's people are swinging

(01:02:17):
chairs and vowing to beat each other up. It's not
PG in any sense of the word other than relative
to the Attitude era. But it's still violent and it's
still about fighting to get ahead. Stop saying it's PG,
because I think it really hurts their image with the
audience they're going after, So stop saying that. But the
truth is is Orton does have some handcuffs on him
compared to what he would have where I think he

(01:02:38):
would have thrived a little bit more in the late
nineties and early two thousands when it was WWF attitude,
and he would have had permission to do a little more.
Any quick follow up on that, Chris.

Speaker 2 (01:02:49):
Yeah, just real quick. He was on George Lozez and
he had to interview when they did ww week.

Speaker 4 (01:02:54):
Yeah, and he was.

Speaker 2 (01:02:55):
Much different than I had ever seen him before.

Speaker 4 (01:02:57):
Yeah, but I don't know, just.

Speaker 2 (01:02:58):
Something about him. I still didn't by it. I thought
it was really scored. Yeah, and I don't that's just
my opinion. He's just, to me, not a likable dude,
and I would just have easier time with him as
a heel. But maybe that's just me.

Speaker 4 (01:03:10):
Yeah, I think they're good observations. And I agree with
him there there's you know, not to be too personal
about it because I don't really ultimately know the answer,
but there just seems to be something about him that
he hasn't come to terms with, that he isn't comfortable
with that he's just not quite happy, you know. And
and and I don't know what that is, but it's

(01:03:31):
something that I think is better exploited as a heel character.
And you play into it, and WWE did. They overtly
talked about that kind of thing, and now it's tough.
It's almost like they're repressing what the real marketing is
of Brandy Orton, which is he's he's he's a little
bit off kilter and unpredictable and a jerk and and
I don't think his babyface character has evolved enough to
overcome that.

Speaker 13 (01:03:55):
On Chris Maitland and I'm justin mccleans West Coast to Coast,
where we scour the wrestling scene to find the best
wrestling from the smallest places. There are thousands of matches
happening every week, so Wrestling Coast to Coast is here
to discover the men and women who could be big
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Speaker 14 (01:04:11):
There are plenty of podcasts to voters to w W
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local wrestling hotspots around the country.

Speaker 13 (01:04:19):
We can't wait to help you find the true hidden
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Speaker 14 (01:04:25):
And justin bemoaning dogpile fins.

Speaker 13 (01:04:27):
Don't forget my feudal search to see a Blue Thunderbomb
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Speaker 14 (01:04:30):
How can I like? The name says we cover the
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Speaker 13 (01:04:40):
Actually, Chris, I think we stick pretty much to wrestling.

Speaker 14 (01:04:42):
No, I mean Beyond Wrestling out of Worcester.

Speaker 1 (01:04:44):
Oh right.

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Speaker 4 (01:05:08):
All right, let's go to air code eight one seven.
If you we might not well Prior can have time
for you. But if you want to try to squeeze
in one more call, you can give us a call
because this is our last caller on hold.

Speaker 9 (01:05:17):
It spends on seven.

Speaker 4 (01:05:19):
Please state your name and where you're from.

Speaker 2 (01:05:21):
Jimmy from Fort Worth, Texas.

Speaker 15 (01:05:23):
This is more for Greg to a certain extance with
the what What's gonna happen with the World Fidal match?
And then adding uh, del Rio and the stereo in
for t LC. Why do Dad And is this a
move to get the belts off the cane or Edge
heading into rum where we can set up something that
might be a little bit more sustainable for.

Speaker 4 (01:05:43):
Rest me A good question. Jimmy Greg you cover SmackDown
Live every Friday night for PW Torch dot com. What
are your thoughts on on that mini spoiler the change
headed into Sunday's pay per view.

Speaker 6 (01:05:57):
I hope this is an acknowledgment by WWE that this
can Edge shoot has just been awful, and you know
Del Rio and Mysterio adding them as a little more intrigue,
and Kane is not really doing it as champion without
undertaking a playoff. Even though their matches are no great shakes,
they do have a certain chemistry and they know each
other's characters well enough to play off that. And with
Kane and Edge, it just hasn't been that way. So,

(01:06:19):
you know, I think it's too early for Del Reala
gets the belt. I really don't see my Sterio getting
the belt right now, but it's something to think about.
That Edge character right now isn't where I think it
should be to be a world title contender, a world champion,
and Caine really isn't.

Speaker 5 (01:06:33):
That because he doesn't.

Speaker 4 (01:06:34):
Have I'm going to challenge like taker, Greg, I'll jumping
will have created like the time you want to talk
in the VIP after show. We're headed towards the VP
after Show, So VIP members, of course, stay tuned if
you're listening to us on delay. And everyone else joined
us tomorrow for another show, same place, same time, and
yeah on behalf of Great Parks Way Keller signing up.

(01:07:05):
All right, Greg, we now move into the v I
the after show portion of the program.

Speaker 9 (01:07:10):
Blog Talk Radio goodbye, go.

Speaker 4 (01:07:12):
Go ahead and h and Funnlew because I know you
probably had more to say, but I saw the countdown
clock getting near the end there.

Speaker 6 (01:07:18):
Yeah, just that you know, Edge, like I said, this
student and Kane hasn't brought watch out in his character,
and I don't really think right now he's at the
world tidle level with his character or even his entering
performances that there are just so so at this point,
again keeping in mind who he has to play off
within the ring and the same with Kane's playing off,

(01:07:38):
Edges has not done wonders for his character with Taker
going on the shelf. I think they had a lot
more chemistry as characters going against.

Speaker 5 (01:07:45):
Each other, not so much in the ring obviously.

Speaker 6 (01:07:48):
But I felt better with Kane as champion and Undertaker
chasing him than I do with Edge. And this this
is kind of seems like it's kind of a last
minute decision throw del Rio and Mysterio into this match
because del Rio and Mysterio had a match, Kane and
Match had a match. So this freaks up a little

(01:08:08):
desperation by w W in Perhaps they realized that, you know,
maybe they maybe they do want to switch the bell
to del Rio or Mysterio here to get it off.
Kane and Mager go to a different main event direction
on Smackcount, which they desperately need.

Speaker 4 (01:08:24):
Is Paul Bear dead, Greg, I don't know that he'll ever.

Speaker 6 (01:08:30):
Die if if being encased in concrete won't kill you,
I don't know if being pushed off of a off
of a ledge a scaffold in a wheelchair will do it.
And maybe that'll be the joke that every few years
they'll bring Paul Bert back after they've uh supposedly killed
them off on TV. But you know, if we're talking

(01:08:53):
about Undertaker and Kane revisiting their feud when Taker comes
back from his injury, and that it's one of the
matches possible matches for Taker out there at Mania. I
don't think you'd want to hit the Paul Bear off.
You'd still kind of want him to hanger on to
finish that off.

Speaker 4 (01:09:11):
Do you agree with me that it's just a bad
place to go that level of a bump from a
mortal and to show him basically splat it on the ground.
I mean, it was like road Runner Wiley Coyote to me.
When something like that happens to a character on air, No,
I don't even think. I mean, I don't like is
having hornswoggle against the Soaring Eagle. I think having mascots

(01:09:35):
do fake moves and fake selling just breaks the fourth wallet.
It takes you out of that suspension of this belief
it's not worth it. There's other ways to get laughs,
other ways to do comedy. Then go down that road.
I think it's disrespectful to the wrestlers. I also think
it's disrespectful to say we're gonna make a big deal
out of a wrestler getting suplexed off the top rope
and landing on the mat. But we're not gonna make

(01:09:56):
a big deal out of Paul Barry being shoved out
of a wheelchair and going splat on a concrete floor
twenty feet below or thirty feet below. You can't do
that and then ignore it. I mean you can't do it, period.
And the fact that once you do it, you almost
have to ignore it because it's so absurd is the problem.
But the way that on Raw edges out. They're talking
about a storyline with Kine and the announcers are, but

(01:10:18):
you're not really talking about the headline of the show,
which is Paul Baar went splat. If you're not going
to talk about it because you literally can't without sounding foolish,
then don't do it. Am I am I right on that.

Speaker 6 (01:10:31):
Well, not only is that, but we had adumated a
snide comment at the end of a SmackDown, kind of
like in jest after he just saw a guy Gratch
that he's been tormenting possibly get killed, and here he
is making a joke off camera, well not off camera,
but off to the side of Cain there to kind
of close the show, and you're thinking, like, is that

(01:10:52):
really the tone that they want to go for with this,
because then what's the ultimate that's not gonna sell, that's
not gonna sell pay per views, the type of self
vies for TLC to treat a main event of one
of your brands in that way, in that light.

Speaker 4 (01:11:08):
I just don't know.

Speaker 6 (01:11:11):
This whole Kane versus Edge tues must be scratching my
head in like in in disappointment because I do have
to cover it every week in depth, you know, for
the targe and it's like having to sit through I
feel like I've said to the same episode three times
with Edge continually, you know, throwing Paul Bart dummies off

(01:11:32):
the off of large scaffolds or you know, getting him
run over by machinery, and have Kane constantly falling for it, uh,
you know, and then have Kane come out who was
supposed to be just definitely healed, begging for mercy, and
I really don't know what they're trying to what they're
trying to accomplish here with this.

Speaker 4 (01:11:55):
We talked a lot about what's wrong with Randy Orton.
He's in his prime, Edge nearing the end of his career.
Probably he's you know, hinted at such on camera and
behind the scenes that you know he's looking forward to
life after wrestling, and it's not assary counting the days.
But you know, he's not a long term guy. But

(01:12:15):
right now he's one of the more established legacy heels
baby faces. He's been both what's the best way to
take advantage of Edge right now? Given the strength and
weaknesses that we've seen in it during this time that
he's gotten a top tier push on SmackDown.

Speaker 6 (01:12:32):
I think he's still got value's upper mid card guy
and as the main event guy. He's got the name
value of being in the main events for so long
that people buy him as a title of contender. I
just think that you can't put him in a match
with Cane anymore and expect him to get something out
of Cane. You can't put Edge in a match with
somebody who is below par in the ring and you

(01:12:53):
know expect Edge to bring that person's work rate up.
You're gonna have to start play Edge of the match
with workers to bring his work right up. Because you know,
I can't believe, I can't remember the last time he
had a really, really really good match. I mean, he
did Jerichos at WrestleMania, was with a good match and
you know, it could be quality of opponents that he's
running into. It could be you know, nagging injuries because

(01:13:15):
he has reaching that point in his career he has
had he has taken a lot of time off for
injuries in the path. Uh so that's gotta be weighing
on him. But he's not a guy who you can
throw in the ring with somebody who's who's not real
good and have them and have Edge bringing that quality
of the match up anymore. I think that's pretty clear.
I think you needed to work him against a guy

(01:13:37):
like Mysterio or a guy a young guy who who
has that talent and has a you know, to steal
you know, Daniel Bryan from Raw or have him work
with Edge. I just think that as he's reached the
point in his career where that's going to be necessary
to continue to have him work at a high level

(01:13:58):
in the main event.

Speaker 4 (01:13:58):
The upper McCard looking at Sunday, do you have a
predicted finish and do you have a preferred finish for
the four way or and and maybe you need to
see SmackDown, you know, to really give a fully educated
opinion on that based on how how they kind of
what direction they go with things, and that's I thing,
But what do you predict based on what we know now?

(01:14:19):
And what do you what do you think they should
do in that four way?

Speaker 6 (01:14:22):
Yeah, you know, I really would like to see the
belt on Mysterial or del Rio as as little time
as del Rio is spending w W in as much
as I know, WWE is a loath to give guys
like that run with the belt, especially with the attitude
problems del Rio has had comes backstage earlier in his
run to give him the belt. This plant probably not

(01:14:43):
something high on their list, but they've surprised before putting
it on Swagger and putting it on the Miz and
Shameless as early.

Speaker 5 (01:14:48):
As he was.

Speaker 6 (01:14:49):
Of course he had certain backers behind him.

Speaker 5 (01:14:53):
But yeah, I would have to definitely watch the SmackDown.

Speaker 6 (01:14:55):
This is this is news to me because you know,
I you know, I always try to avoid boilers going
into Friday nights.

Speaker 5 (01:15:01):
To do the shows.

Speaker 6 (01:15:02):
Yeah, so, uh, you know, I did hear there was
a change in the title match. I didn't know what
it was until you know, the last color and the
live cast there, So I would I would need time
to think about it, and I would like to see
how it played out, because.

Speaker 4 (01:15:16):
I don't know, it's not much of a spoiler. I
probably would have tried to avoid it a little bit
more than the live cast. But the spoiler consists of
Teddy Long coming out and announcing at the beginning of
the show. I mean, it's it's it's not like we
spoiled anything.

Speaker 6 (01:15:26):
That So there wasn't there wasn'tny like interactions between the
four or anything like that.

Speaker 4 (01:15:30):
Yeah, well then I would be spoiling things if I
told you that. But okay, was there wasn't there enough?
I well, this is what I'm trying to get. It
wasn't like that was the payoff to to an hour
and fifty eight minutes of suspense. You know, it's something
very early in the show that's established. So, to me,
a spoiler is something that that's quote literally spoils a
mystery that that takes place in the show where you

(01:15:50):
don't know who's gonna win, you don't know who's gonna wrestle,
or you don't know what a surprise is. This is
something that it's only spoiling something in the first few
minutes of the show in that sense, and it's not
it's it's presented rather dr.

Speaker 6 (01:16:01):
Okay, you know, yeah, part of me thinks that it
would be too obvious to switch the belts in Material
and Ray or Material or Delrio right now, Yeah, because
that would be that would be obviously Wwe saw a
problem with this and felt he needed to fix it.
But another part of me is thinks that why would
ww go out of their way to announce a match
for Masterial and Del Rio and An announce the match

(01:16:22):
for kanan Age ahead of time and then all of
a sudden literally well okay, not literally but figuratively at
the last minute change the mash to a four way.
You know, I don't know.

Speaker 5 (01:16:35):
I don't know what the reasoning behind it would be.

Speaker 1 (01:16:43):
You don't have to wait for the Weight Keller Pro
Wrestling post show to find out what I thought of
Monday Night Raw and SmackDown. Each week, you can check
out my reports that are updated live throughout Raw and
SmackDown at pw toorch dot com. I written report will
tell you what's happening in detail in case you missed
the show, and it'll also end lies key segments and
give my random thoughts quips on what I am watching

(01:17:04):
as it airs. So check it out every Monday night
and Tuesday night at pwtorch dot com. That also applies
to WWE payperviews. I cover those live at pw torch
dot com with a detailed written report with star ratings,
and of course you can find other TV reports from
other contributors to pw torch such as nxt ROH, Impact Wrestling,
and more. Check it out pw torch dot com your

(01:17:26):
first stop for TV and pay per view written reports.

Speaker 4 (01:17:39):
Yeah, and I look at you know, Ray's so injured,
you know, he's so beaten up, and he's always trying
to get that one more match, that one more big
payday in, and I think, if somebody deserves to have
another WrestleMania payday, and maybe it's his last one, maybe
his body's breaking down too much, or maybe he'll be
not not full time after a little while. You know,
Ray seems like somebody who is a better fit legacy

(01:18:03):
wise and drawing card wise to be defending or chasing
the world title at WrestleMania. I look at that SmackDown
roster and I don't think Kane belongs in that spot,
whether he's feeding with Undertaker in a co main event,
trying to end the streak, or whether he's on the
undercard Wrestling Big Show in another forgettable meaningless you know,
second or third match on the card he does, either

(01:18:25):
of those is better than being in the World title match.
It's just it's a bad fit. Two. I just don't
know that Edge is at that level where he belongs
in what would by definition, be one of the top
three matches at WrestleMania. You got the ww title match,
You've got the World title match, and you have Undertakers match.
Those are going to be three of the biggest matches
on the show. It's going to be hard for something

(01:18:46):
else to dramatically eclipse it. So people are going to
decide to order or not order the event in part
on what's going on with that SmackDown title. Edge is
good at what he does, not great. I don't think
he's drawn too many new fans. I don't think he
has a fan base like Radar. So to me, I
just think when you look at the SmackDown roster, who
besides Ray should be in that world title top top

(01:19:10):
two three four matches on WrestleMania.

Speaker 6 (01:19:11):
Flat yeah, And I don't think anyone's gonna get excited
about Edge or Kine chasing or defending the title at WrestleMania, right,
I just don't think those are two guys, and things
could change between now and then, and the character could be,
you know, reinvigorated by something.

Speaker 5 (01:19:28):
I'm thinking specifically of Edge here because I don't know
that they would go to that length of.

Speaker 6 (01:19:32):
Kane, but you know, I suppose they could make something
happen between now and then. But for me, I know,
having covered SmackDown for the last three or four years,
that Kane and Edge have both seen better days and
you know, as good as Kane was during his feud
with the Undertaker on promos and you know, just seeming

(01:19:55):
more like a main event guy once you get him
in a match that obviously goes away. And he's getting
older and just getting older, and they're getting up there
and the injuries are piling up, and you know, like
you said, I think Ray is a better bat to
either be chasing or holding the title at WrestleMania, and
I think that would pick the fans interest a lot
more than either Cane or Edge at this point.

Speaker 4 (01:20:15):
Are there any other matches for WrestleMania or feuds that
at WrestleMania that you'd think either are blossoming and well
we'll take effect and fill that undercard, or is smacked
on kind of a toss up right now in the
sense that there's nothing on the under card that we
necessarily are are locked in at being something that will
be featured come April or come late March.

Speaker 6 (01:20:36):
Yeah, there's nothing really on SmackDown that jumps out to me.
You know, I could see even del Rio versus Ray
if Ray's not in the title picture. Even if he is,
I mean, we can have a Ray Delrio title match.
I think that feud could go that distance, you know,
with with small breaks in between for whatever. I think
that is something that could definitely happen. You know, there's

(01:21:01):
there's the main event, and then there's a big drop
to the mid card. I mean there are a lot
of upper mid card guys that you can uh mix
in and out with Kane and Raight now.

Speaker 5 (01:21:09):
I mean, you know, I'm looking.

Speaker 6 (01:21:10):
At their roster on ww dot com, del Rio and
Mysterio or pretty much it. Uh, You've got Big Show
who's kind of around, but he's become more of a
novelty act at this point. Really. You've got Christian who's
on the shop Cody Road, they're trying to push Drew
McIntyre has cooled off. Jack Swagger. They can always push,
but I mean he was just seen with it with
an eagle mascot the last you know months, so he's
gonna need some some retooling of his character or at

(01:21:33):
least time to work back up into the main event picture.
And that's pretty much it. You know, that's pretty much
it for SmackDown. It's not a deep roster by any means.
There are about three or four guys in the mid
card who who are good, but there's that upper mid
card is really lacking between the four the four guys
who would consider main aventures even five if you want

(01:21:54):
to put a big show in there, but del Rio
Masterio Kane at and big show, a big the five
made eventors, and then there's a big drop to the
Cody Roses and the Drew McIntyre and the Jack Swagger.

Speaker 4 (01:22:06):
And it to display how thin the roster is right
now besides the Hornswaggo Eagle match and all the time
it's getting and the fact that Santino Vladimir look to
be a regular presence as long as they hold the
take titles. They gave TV time and a seeming angle
to Chavo Guerrero and even Chris Masters. It seems like

(01:22:27):
they're kind of like bringing some dusting some people off
who were just kind of, you know, on the shelf
for a while for no reason other than they didn't
have anything for him. I mean, Chobo versus Drew McIntyre,
is are we really going to see that?

Speaker 12 (01:22:41):
Well?

Speaker 6 (01:22:41):
And remember they just cut losted a bunch of SmackDown guys.
That that entire cutdown a few weeks ago was pretty
much solely SmackDown guys.

Speaker 7 (01:22:48):
You know.

Speaker 6 (01:22:48):
But and if they're making way for influx new talent
on the brand, either from raw or from developmental or
from outside the company, but you know, that is something
that is an interesting PostScript Two, that cut down day
was just about all of them were smack dollar wrastlers.

Speaker 4 (01:23:03):
Yes, yeah, it's just it's a thin it's a thin roster,
big big night for SmackDown Tuesday Night. It's gonna be
live on a Tuesday night on a much better network,
USA Network. What's your uh, what's your take on on what?
What's your headline as far as coming going into Tuesday?
To me, it's how hard does WWE push it? How

(01:23:25):
much talent do they send from Raw over to SmackDown
to boost it? And uh and then what what rating
do they end up with being on USA with only
one day's one day's notice. But that freshen your mind
plug on Raw assuming they go to the trouble.

Speaker 6 (01:23:38):
Yeah, And I'm also wondering how creative will be motivated
because they're going on the same network as USA, or
as the same network USA as Raw. And you know,
obviously they're not going to get as good a rating
because you know, they haven't been a stall war on
that network at the same time, you know, for how
many years now? Uh, you know they're usually on Friday nights.

(01:24:01):
So but I think there is a certain element that says,
let's see how well we can do as opposed to Raw,
because I mean, the comparisons will be there. The smack
Don will be the night after Raw, and it's on
the same network, so you'll see the comparisons, and hopefully
that brings out the creative juices, could get some flowing
from the SmackDown creative team to maybe build up a competition.

(01:24:24):
You know, not so much on air obviously, but between
the creative teams to see who can have the better
show on how high the ratings can be.

Speaker 5 (01:24:30):
But I also think there's.

Speaker 6 (01:24:32):
That within WWE that says, let's not put all of
our eggs in this bath get right now, because we
know the viewership is going to be down because it's
a different night and because we're on a different network,
So let's not give away too much here so that
our regular fans won't be able to won't see it,
or if they don't know that it's on the other network.

Speaker 4 (01:24:50):
Have you been as surprised as I have that Raw
that WWE hasn't done more to create synergy with SmackDown
on Raw. I mean, we have the three hour Raw
where they're featuring SmackDown wrestlers and not really making you know,
a huge deal out of it anymore. I mean it
used to be, you know, if he had Smackown wrestler's on,
they make a big deal. Now they for whatever reason,

(01:25:11):
choose not to draw attention to it. I don't even
know if they understand if they even have internal rules
now regarding that. But I just thought by this stage
there would be a lot more synergy between the two shows,
even with the separate rosters where there would be video
package is making you feel like I need to watch
SmackDown on Sci Fi on Friday, and you can watch
Raw and barely know another brand exists other than there's

(01:25:33):
these wrestlers who visit from time to time.

Speaker 6 (01:25:35):
You know, it's interesting look back. Every week on SmackDown
we get ur rebound, which is occasionally a lengthy video
package detailing the big events that happened on Raw the
past week. When was the last time we got a
SmackDown rebound on Raw?

Speaker 14 (01:25:54):
Ye?

Speaker 6 (01:25:55):
And that I think is very telling on where Vincent
fan sees these two. We know that Raw is his baby,
and we know that, you know, for most of the time,
it felt like that SmackDown was just on to give
WWE a broadcast network presence because it was on UPN,
then it was on the CW, then it was on
my network TV. So they wanted a visibility, and they

(01:26:18):
wanted the ability to say, hey, we have a TV
show on one of the big networks. And now that
they can't say that anymore, and then there is certainly
value that having it. But I think it's pretty clear
that this is man sees Raw as his number one priority,
and I think a lot of people inside the company
would agree with that.

Speaker 4 (01:26:35):
Sounds good, Greg, It's going to be an interesting week ahead.
Thanks for joining me again. It was good to talk
to It's been a while since we did the live
cast together.

Speaker 6 (01:26:42):
It has I've been i don't want to say stuck
with James, but I've had the platter of working with
James through what feels like the last three or four
months on livecast, so it is a nice change of
base there.

Speaker 5 (01:26:53):
So I'll work with you on one of these again.

Speaker 4 (01:26:55):
Well, I'm often doing the Bruce Mitchell audio show on
Fridays at the same time that you're on Fridays with James,
so that's been one of the reasons. And then just
the scheduling wise on Thursdays, I've been taken Wednesdays more
often than Thursdays and Pat Scott Wednesdays, so it's nothing personal, Greg,
Oh that's all right, all right? Well great, Thanks all
to all the v IP members for joining us and
listening to us to the very end. Until next time,

(01:27:16):
I'd be having great parts. This is way Keller signing up.

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