15 YRS AGO: Keller & Powell react to inexcusable use of Tommy Dreamer's daughters on TNA Judgment Day PPV, final Summerslam 2010 hype, more

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
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(01:06):
PW Torch and Spreaker bring you the Wade Keller Pro
Wrestling Podcast today on the Way Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast.
For Friday, August fifteenth, twenty twenty five, we Jumped Back
fifteen years to a PW Torch Live Cast episode from
August tenth, twenty ten, where Jason Powell from Progressling dot

(01:26):
Net joined me. We talked about the TNA Hardcore Justice
pay per view, including what we thought was outrageous disrespect
toward dead ECW wrestlers and inexcusable use of Tommy Drimer's
young daughters as part of the show, plus a lot
of discussion on the final hype for ww SummerSlam on Raw.
We had love calls for an hour on a variety
of other topics. Also, in the previously VIP exclusive after show,

(01:48):
we talked about whether WWE should stop telling announcers outcomes
of matches ahead of time and more So here.

Speaker 2 (01:55):
We go, loop Hodi, Welcome to PW Torch Live Cast.
This is Pro Wrestling Torch newsletter editor and PW torch
dot Com editor Wade Keller, joined today by Jason Powell
of Pro Wrestling dot Net. As usual on Tuesdays, here
at the PW Torch Live Cast. It is August tenth,

(02:16):
twenty ten, and we have no shortage of subjects to
talk about today TNA's Hardcore Justice pay per view on
Sunday night. James Caldwell and Greg Parks talked about that
during the majority of yesterday's live cast. We can continue
that with me and Jason with our perspectives on that show.
Also last night, TNA had their tapings for this Thursday's episode,

(02:40):
and we can as the show progresses, see if we
end up getting taken down the road of giving away spoilers.
So be aware of that. If you're planning to be
a caller who wants to talk about what happened on
that show, just preface what you're saying that you know
that you're about to talk about the tapings of what
Alert on Thursday. So at least somebody listening has fair
warning if they want to turn the volume down for
a minute. But I will, and I'll give fair warning.

(03:03):
They'll give a brief spoiler in the sense that ECW,
the ECW or Evy two angle will continue to a
certain degree on Thursday show. And then of course we
got SummerSlam coming up, and we had Raw last night,
which was the final hype on Raw for SummerSlam with
I thought a real strong finish to the show, and Jason,
I'll start off with this. On yesterday's show, the first

(03:27):
caller called up and said, one of the problems with
wrestling he thinks today is there's not that fan passion,
that believability. Things seem kind of manufactured. It seems like
people are watching a show and not invested in the
characters and who wins and loses. I thought that we
had a good example of the opposite of that last
night at the end of Raw with the shaking camera,
the world class Champshire Wrestling Von Eric like pop the

(03:49):
Rock and Roll Express making a comeback against the Midnight
Express type of pop from that crowd when Jericho, when
Edge joined everybody else in the ring and they had
this brawl with Nexus, did that's about to you as
maybe the crowd reaction signaling something is clicking with this
whole angle at at even a higher level than we thought.

Speaker 3 (04:08):
To some degree, I was really impressed by that reaction,
and like you said, a shaky camera. It happened once
earlier in the show too. But I mean the fans
last night were great. That was just a really hot crowd,
but they, I mean went especially nuts for that final
angle when all those guys just kind of squared off
in the ring and were staring at each other. It

(04:29):
did I just did audio on my side of reviewing Raw,
and I used an old Horseman showdown was the analogy
I used, and so it was I really did bring
back some old memories and you don't get that a lot.
So yeah, it's interesting that the caller said that yesterday,
and you know, here we are today talking about the
great crowd reaction we got last night.

Speaker 2 (04:50):
Well, did you think last night show overall, specifically the
hype four of the top two matches Seamus and Orton
and obviously Nexus against Team WWE, And how they kind
of weave that store line throughout the show with ed
Jan Jerico.

Speaker 3 (05:02):
Very well done, especially the Edgen Jericho stuff. I mean,
you could see it coming, but they kind of left
you wondering until the last minute. So not only did
it make for just a good go home edition of RAW,
but I thought it was just an entertaining edition of
Raw overall too. And I was really impressed with the
way they delivered a good final sell for Randy Orton

(05:22):
versus Shamus, because that was the one where it's like,
they really need to get that one over because the
rest of this car doesn't look that strong in my mind,
and they succeeded that they got me excited about watching
that match on Sunday.

Speaker 2 (05:35):
I agree, I think Orton and On. One thing that
stuck out with Orton's character that was kind of intriguing
is is when he said I'm not I'm not Triple
H and I'm definitely not John Cena, you know. And
it was interesting that Tony took it's he's trying to
establish himself as a baby face, but he almost kind
of took a little shot at Sena and maybe seen
seen us fans a little bit or just said, hey,

(05:57):
I'm different than Johnsina did. Did that? Did that catch
your ear? And so how did you interpret that tone?

Speaker 3 (06:02):
I guess I didn't, But but it I like that.
I mean, he should try to establish himself as something different.
I guess as impressed as I am with the way
Orton is starting to you know, it just continues to
grow with him. There's been some ups and downs along
the way, but I think he's hot at the right
time again. But I'm more impressed by Seamus just all

(06:25):
the heat this guy took from the internet fans always
Triple hus buddy and blah blah blah. I don't care
how he got there. He has made the most of
this opportunity. He really is a long time main eventor
for this company. He's going to be around for years
to come, and I just I'm so impressed the way
the little improvements he makes. I mean, the range he
showed last night alone was awesome. He comes out ultra

(06:47):
confident and cocky, and then you know, Orton teases with
the punk kick and he's sitting in the corner almost
cowering in fear. I mean, this guy's got great range.
And he's also showed in little flashes here and there
when he teases being a baby face. When the time comes,
he's going to make a really good babyface too.

Speaker 2 (07:03):
I think it's interesting that people the way people on
the outside look at pro wrestling versus what it really
takes to be a successful pro wrestler and the nuances
that we try to talk about on this show that
makes the difference between a money making character and a
character who doesn't make money, a wrestler who has great
athleticism but doesn't have some of those intangibles. And I
think so much of it comes down to not it's

(07:26):
not just athleticism, it's not just size, it's not just
having the look. It's not even just being charismatic, it's
just being smart. I mean, I just think having a
high IQ, or well educated, or just good street instincts,
whatever combination of all those things. I just think if
you looked at the wrestlers that succeed, that get the
crowd pops, that tell the stories that draw money, and
you matched it up against this combination of measuring intellect,

(07:50):
I just think you'd see a high correlation. I mean,
the people who make money in WWE are the ones
who are able to do what Shamus did last night
and everything you just said, Jason and I agree one
hundred percent. He he just the subtleties in his timing
and the way that he's able to process what's going on,
what the crowd reaction is, what Orton is doing, and
how to respond in a way that's believable. It's just

(08:11):
it really is impressive. And there's other guys you've seen
him over the years who people thought they've got the look,
and they've got you know, this factor, that factor, But
if they don't have that instinct and that that's that
that street smart and intellect to just know how to
react to those situations and have it buy into their
characters so much that it's just second nature where you
you believe their character and every every little facial twitch

(08:34):
and every slight change in reaction. It's great. And and
the thing that Shamus is really good at too, is
he doesn't and you see this a lot, especially in TNA.
I call it the cartoon face. You know, we're especially
with the announcers, but you see with wrestlers too, where
sometimes wrestlers think that they have to react as if
they're playing they're playing to the last row of the

(08:55):
building or somebody watching on a on a eight inch
TV screen. That's where the reception is bad, or that
people are just dumb and don't understand facial twitches. Human
beings are very good at reading faces. And the most
convincing story that you can tell as a character in
the ring with that promo is not making this exaggerated
cartoon face, but that just the most subtle eyebrow twitch

(09:17):
and the most subtle curling of the lip. And that's
the stuff that I look for that when I'm trying
to analyze why do I buy into this segment in
this character more versus others, That's the stuff that I
see it's when someone's willing to be more subtle, and
I think that carries over to the best bookers are
more subtle also most of the time, so that when
you do something big and out of the ordinary, it
really stands out. So I agree with Jason Seamus is

(09:38):
impressing the economy and the fact that Triple H chose
him and hung out with him and liked to lift
weights with him in the gym, that doesn't that's not
a negative. Triple H is a smart guy, and he
might be a prick at times. A lot of the time,
he might be selfish, he might be a lot of
negative things that we've seen over the years, but he's
got an eye for talent right now. And I don't
remember him picking people out who didn't work. You know,

(10:00):
he didn't work with Batista and Randy Orton because he
thought they were losers, you know. I mean, he went
to ben on camera with them if he thought that
they weren't going to catch, that they weren't, that they
weren't worth the effort. So I think he's got a
pretty good eye for talent and a pretty good high
wrestling IQ and I think that's showing.

Speaker 3 (10:15):
Yeah, And I think it does go back to the
Click days two and I know this has come up
on the show before Open the Share Room, before I
forget to tell you that.

Speaker 2 (10:22):
Okay, thank you, guys, Sorry guys.

Speaker 3 (10:25):
But you know it's it's come up before. But the Click,
as much as they've they earned the reputation for the
you know, just stirring the pod and playing political games.
The guys that they didn't think would work out in
most cases didn't work out. And a lot of that
was Holland Nash obviously, but Hunter was part of that.

(10:46):
And I really do think that it bodes well for
the future of this company that he does have that
good eye for talent.

Speaker 2 (10:53):
I agree.

Speaker 1 (10:55):
You can support us on Patreon and get these shows
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(11:17):
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Speaker 2 (11:26):
I agree, Well, Jason, we'll talk a lot more about
whatever we don't cover as much in the show in
the VIP after show coming up in about fifty one minutes,
So why don't we go to phone calls? In just
a second here, one thing I want to get in
before I forget. We had a big weekend for UFC.
Saturday Night show was just phenomenal. I mean, top to bottom.

(11:47):
There are a lot of good fights, except of course
John Finchboard the heck out of everybody doing is doing
what he does best. But that's just part of the
mix of MMA. But that Anderson Silva, Chale Son and
fight was amazing. And tonight right here at blog Talk
Radio the MMA Torch Podcast, the MMA Torch Live Cast,
i should say, will be broadcast live nine to ten
thirty Eastern, that's eight to nine thirty Central, and Jamie

(12:09):
Pennick will be hosting that, and I hope that you
will make an effort to listen live and participate with
some phone calls talking not just about that, but also
Jamie Penick's got a story up right now over at
mmatorch dot com with the very latest on Batista and
Bobby Lashley and the prospects of them fighting. Some good
exclusive information over there worth checking out. That will also,

(12:32):
i'm sure will be part of the discussion tonight on
the ninety minute MMA Torch Live cast. That's nine to
ten thirty Eastern every Tuesday night. That's a new time slot.
It had been on Sunday afternoons due to football season.
As I'm sure Jason you can relate, as can I.
They thought it was wise to move the show to
a non NFL time period, so it's their second week
on Tuesday night. And as always, you can listen to

(12:53):
that and subscribe to the to the live cast on
an RSS feed or on iTunes. If you're unable to
listen to it live, we encourage you to do that.
The I'm sure the those who watched or heard about
the Anderson Silva Chill Sounded Flight will definitely want to
hear the perspectives that the MMA Torch staff, led by
Jamie Pennock provide tonight. All right, let's go to the
phone lines. We've only got three people on hold, so
if you want to be fourth and fifth, we're going

(13:14):
to get the calls earlier in the show. The normal
the number to call is six four six seven two
one nine eight two eight six four six seven nine
two weight. Let's go to our first call area code
seven to one nine. You're on the show. Please state
your name and where you're from.

Speaker 4 (13:29):
Yes, is Daniel from Colorado? How you guys doing good?

Speaker 2 (13:32):
Daniel? What's up today?

Speaker 4 (13:34):
Actually? I uh, I wanted to take you back a
little bit to when Hogan first came into TNA and
he said something that's very interesting that they don't seem
to follow. He said that if you can't talk and
you can't wrestle, you shouldn't be in this company. And
I think that was somebody, I don't know if it

(13:57):
was Russo or Hogan or what, somebody trying to light
a fire under the wrestlers saying we're going to compete
now against WWE. But if they really meant what they said,
why is Lacy von Eric still there?

Speaker 2 (14:13):
Because that only applied to men. If you're drop dead
gorgeous and draw ratings and can be the Disney blonde
who guys in our target audience are going to want
to see, even if she can't talk or wrestle. You
get the exemption, Am I right, Jason?

Speaker 3 (14:26):
Yeah, I mean it's all about ratings playing at Temple,
and they feel as though she can bring those ratings in.

Speaker 2 (14:32):
Yeah. I mean, I don't even mind. I don't I honestly,
I mean I would say it if I felt it.
I don't mind Lacy's character that much. I think she's improved.
I think she's being a little more subtle with her
kind of Disney blonde character. And I'm critical overall of
the direction that the Knockout's division has taken in the
past year or two compared to his peak a couple
of years ago. But you know, and inn Lacy von
Rack can't wrestle and she can't talk. I agree with
both of those in a broad general brushstroke. But I

(14:56):
think she brings something to the table in the dynamic
of the beautiful peace people, and so I kind of
get I guess I can at least understand why they've
kept her around. I think there are bigger problems with
the direction that've gone with with the Knockouts than having
a you know, one ditty blonde character as part of
as something for the other beautiful people to react to and.

Speaker 3 (15:17):
I'll add this, I think she would have been a
much better fit as a valet with Nigel McGuinness or
Desmond Wolf, whatever you want to call him than the
woman they went with. And it's not even it's not
even that can't I'm drawn a blank on her name.
But it's not even her fault, just because they portrayed
her as being this gold digger they didn't care about

(15:39):
anything other than getting the possession she set her eyes on,
and then all of a sudden we're supposed to feel
sympathy for her because she spends a or a weekend
with Abyss and decides that he treats her better than
Desmond did. I just think that. I mean it was
poor casting call there, poor writing there, and I just
think Lacey, anytime you can get lazy out of the

(16:01):
ring and still get some use on of her, I
think it's a good move.

Speaker 2 (16:07):
Anything else.

Speaker 4 (16:07):
Daniel, Yeah, I actually watched Luca Libre USA for the
first time about a week ago, just to give it
a try. And I always think that it's announcers that
could always be or the commentators that are make or
break for a show to get you interested. And I

(16:29):
wanted to know what you guys thought about their commentators
and if you saw that there was room.

Speaker 2 (16:34):
For improvement as them. I definitely think there's room for improvement.
I'm not against having kind of a helish commentator and
a straight announcer kind of call things down the middle,
but I had I mean, I wrote a review of
the first of the first show and felt that it
was that there were certain faults to it and announcing

(16:55):
I think was top three or four. It's felt post produced,
it felt a little forced, and it felt a little patronizing,
almost like they were kind of talking down to the
audience that instead of just being there to convey what
was happening in the ring and really educate them. It's
hard to put my finger on it, but I haven't
been i haven't been crazy about the announcing. I haven't

(17:16):
seen every every minute of every episode so far. I've
got some somewhat of a backlog on the DVR that
I need to catch up on. But it part of
it is this first show just didn't totally hook me. Jason,
what what did you think of what you've seen so
far as far as announcing I'm with you?

Speaker 3 (17:30):
A first show didn't hook me and I have all
the other episodes I'm sitting on my DVR that I
may or may not watch someday. Wasn't blown away by
the announcing in the first episode. Didn't think it was
one of the strong points of the show, but you know,
I mean it's it's I don't want to judge them
completely based on one show, so I'm sure one of
these days I'll get around to watching at least a
couple of episodes and I'll have a better answer.

Speaker 2 (17:51):
Then we have a just a quick note on the
VP site that we've got that I'm sure regular listeners
know about, and thanks to everybody who's been signing up lately.
It's great to get new names in there, especially with
the form which has really picked up lately. And we
have a VIP blog section and we've probably had a
dozen VIP members post blogs in the last forty eight hours.
It's really picked up. I've just really made an effort

(18:13):
to get the VIP blog section going where VIP members
can write their own blogs and then have interaction with readers,
and I react to some of the blogs too, And
I'm writing my daily blog now. I've done it for
fourteen fifteen straight days now and one of the blogs
today is called the Evolution of Michael Cole, and it
talks about you know what Michael Cole did on Monday

(18:34):
that really worked and sometimes all being quite silent is
the best thing you can do. And I think Michael
Cole has really stepped up in the absence of Jim Ross.
I don't think that he's thrown his hands up and
given up. I don't think his strengths are the same
as Jim Ross in all categories. But I think Michael's
been doing a good job in most areas. I think
when he turns heel and gets obsessed with one wrestler,
you know, that kind of stuff I think is distracting

(18:56):
and not necessary and usually falls flat. But I thought,
I I think lately Michael Cole has been really good
and he shows how you know, you bring up how
important announcing is. I think it's vital. And I think
that you know, what we see on SmackDown is with
Todd Grisham as the lead announcer. And I was a
backup of Tod Grisham when he first got that spot.
But sometimes it just seems like he's clipping his toenails
while he's calling that action. I mean like he's just

(19:18):
sitting around kind of keeping half an eye in the ring,
but he's more worried about a hangnail. And then it's
when that something happens, it's just kind of pre programmed
to repeat, you know, Oh, here's what I'm supposed to say,
so I'll say it. And he's not really plugged into it.
And and Michael Cole seems genuinely plugged into what he's doing,
And I think that's one of the biggest keys, is
just the announcer not being ashamed to really get wrapped
up in the moment and having the capability being enough

(19:38):
of a fan of wrestling to convey genuine passion for
what he's announcing. And again, I don't know. On the
Lucia liber Usa show that that that that happened, it
seemed a little a little stiff, Daniel your quick follow up.

Speaker 4 (19:52):
I saw them, and I did like the fact that
there was a heel and a and a regular straightc
commentator to really let you know who who was who,
because I you know, that was the first time I
watched it, and and it's all these people in masks looking,

(20:13):
you know, with with names I don't understand, so you know,
it's it's really important to let the audience know who's
the good guy and who's the bad guy. So I
thought they were good at that, but I did there
did seem like there was some post production going on
where they were reading.

Speaker 2 (20:31):
Yeah, there's times where announcers are overly scripted. We've seen
that in ECW before Joey Styles had to work through
that at times. The guy who replaced Joey when he
was away for a while sounded like he was reading
a script word for word. Sometimes in TNA, Vince Russo
has overscripted the announcers and it really it really kind
of takes you out of the moment because you feel
like they're not just reacting to what they're seeing, but

(20:52):
trying to be a pitch man. So, yeah, good call, Daniel.
Thanks but yep.

Speaker 5 (21:02):
In twenty twelve, NXT transitioned into the developmental system and
ultimately the brand you see today. On the Torch VIP
podcast NXT Eight Years Back, we'll be taking a weekly
look at this page in NXT's early history.

Speaker 6 (21:17):
Join Kelly Wells and me Tom Stout from PWT Talks
NXT every Saturday as we go eight years back to
the day to track NXT's rising talents and why they
did or didn't work out exclusively for PW Torch VIP members.

Speaker 2 (21:33):
Let's keep going through the phone lines here. If you
want to reach us here on the loodcast and participate
in the show, the number is six four six seven
to one nine two eight. If you're unable to be
around a computer during our show, you can call that
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lot of phone lines capability of having a lot of
people call in and just listen and he's dropping on
the show. So if you've got a cell phone and

(21:54):
you're on your commute you want to listen through that,
you can call that number. All you have to do
is just not push one on your phone to indicate
that you want to partic pay and we will not
bring you on live on the show. So that number
six four six nine A two ways to participate for
just listen live. Let's go back to the phone line
to go to air code five five nine. You're on
Peterbode Torch live cast with Way Keller and Jason pouloproosing

(22:14):
dot net. Please state your name and where you're from.

Speaker 7 (22:17):
Hey guys, this is Steve from California.

Speaker 2 (22:19):
Hey Steve, what's anybody today?

Speaker 7 (22:22):
Hey, wellwe dot com showed that Greg Holly is out
of the match at SummerSlam, and uh, then we had
the miss last night, you know, basically asking himself into
the match. But is there any thought that possibly that
is a red herring to bring in somebody else, like
a mystery partner, possibly Daniel Bryan.

Speaker 2 (22:44):
Jason good U good subject. What do you think on that?

Speaker 3 (22:47):
Yeah, I mean that that's certainly come up since last
night when when they left the door open for a
new entrant at match. That would certainly make sense. I
think it. Also, you know, they didn't really hype the
heck out of the fact that, you know, we don't
know who it's gonna be, so you're gonna have to
tune in Sunday because if it is Daniel Brian, I
don't think they'd want to go overboard with that, just

(23:09):
because the net fans would be giddy and the casual
fans sitting at home and be like, yeah, I kind
of remember him.

Speaker 2 (23:17):
Yeah, I'm curious what the pop would be for for
Brian Daniel. You know, I'm not sure. I'm not sure,
like you, Jason would would it be real muted and
and you know certain pockets of the crowd or not.
It's not a bad angle to do if they have
a good follow up, But I don't think they'd want
to do that just because of the NXT audience and

(23:37):
what they know of him or what the Ring of
Honor audience knows of him. They would need to make
sure that there was a real good promo plan and
a real good angle or explanation afterwards. I think it's
possibility Missile joined the team and not necessarily go babyface,
but just be part of that mix. You know, he's
a big name, and you know they have a lot
of faith in him. I wasn't I love Evan Born,

(23:57):
and I think he deserved to last longer than two
or three minut with mis But just that three minutes
was good, and it's hard to have a bad match
with having Born. But miss is clearly on the rise,
clearly a favorite favorite of management in certain quarters right now,
So I wouldn't rule him out as either being part
of the team and even adding some some some issues

(24:17):
to where maybe he causes them not to win, uh
and and not get the victory, because as Bruce Mitchell
has said on I think here on the live cast,
it's it's unlikely that that the Babyface team led by
Sena is gonna gonna end this suit and beat nextus
on their first try. They're gonna want to stretch this out.

Speaker 3 (24:36):
The other the other way of looking at the miss
teasing involvement is, let's not forget that Daniel Bryan and
Mis have history on NXT too, So I mean that
that could have been, like he says, a red herring.
But at the same time, it would you know, if
they if they want to get work Miss up by
acting like they're going to stroke his ego and add
him to the team and then bring in the guy

(24:56):
that he trained on n XT to to actually be
the guy the match, that would make sense storyline wise.

Speaker 2 (25:02):
Yeah, what, Steve, what are you voting for?

Speaker 3 (25:06):
I'm voting for danel Brian.

Speaker 2 (25:07):
Yeah, do you think that I think it's time to
bring him back.

Speaker 8 (25:10):
His firing was unjust to me in the first place, and.

Speaker 2 (25:14):
That's what you want to see. Now step away from
what you want to see, And do you think if
you're Vince McMahon, that would be the right thing to
do given the very little TV exposure Daniel Brian had
in front of the Ron SmackDown audience. And I'm not
saying that's to load the question and sway you to
be negati about it. But do you think that fifteen
thousand people in an arena are going to feel the
same way as you?

Speaker 8 (25:34):
Probably not? Okay, But oh, one more thing about Saturday.
In the fights, I broke my remote throwing it up
against the wall at the end of the sun And fight,
and I was screaming and cursing at my TV until
I saw the replay and then I was like, oh damn, I.

Speaker 3 (25:50):
Broke my remote for no reason.

Speaker 2 (25:52):
I thought the referee had stops it too. So yeah, well,
Jales got a little bit of a history. There's another
instance where you know, he wasn't. He made it seem
like he didn't. He didn't. I think it was tap
out when he did. It was what a what a fight,
and what a finish.

Speaker 7 (26:08):
It was awesome.

Speaker 2 (26:09):
You and I were emailing, Jason. You and I were
emailing back and forth at two in the morning on
this one because we're still hyped up from it on
Saturday night. You know, Eric Fish and I don't hate
I was going to say I hate to harp on this,
but I don't. It's such an assert statement. I'm going
to go back to it, you know, Eric says, you know,
it's it's not apples and oranges. It's apples and bricks,
MMA and pro wrestling, and it's not. It's two guys

(26:30):
walking out there in tights or shorts and fighting and
trying to score a win in front of a live
audience inside of some sort of a rank, you know,
right there with green apples and red apples. At most,
it's just one happens to be real and the other
is scripted to be as real as possible. But it's not.
And that was something, you know, you say, if they
scripted it, no one would believe it. It was just

(26:50):
one of those fights where for four and a half
rounds a wrestler dominated the way wrestlers dominate, and actually
did pretty well striking, not in terms of power, as
you point it out, Jason, but in terms of pelting
Silva enough to tackle him and take him down and
then just control him on the mat. And it wasn't
a boring kind of control, because Silva is a jiu
jitsu expert, has at any second that ability to end

(27:11):
the fight, which he did, you know, in the middle
of the fourth round. That's what made every moment of
that exciting because at any second, because of Silva's jiu jitsu,
he could have taken a wrestler who was who let
his guard down just briefly and choke him out or
apply that armbar. It was just such a great story
of a wrestler doing what a wrestler does best. But

(27:31):
if he doesn't have that finishing technique, either the power
to ground and pound or the submission skills in if
you give a jiu jitsu guy long enough on his back,
he's going to just relax, look for that opening, and
that one split second you leave that opening, he's going
to seize it. And that's what Silva did. Silva deserved
to win even though Chls dominated for four and half round.
It wasn't a three round fight and it isn't scored

(27:52):
on points if you can end it before five rounds.
So that's a story that you can tell in pro wrestling,
and you tell it in different ways. It doesn't mean
emulate a grounding a guy and it's back for twenty
five minutes. That won't work in pro wrestling. But there's
a way to tell that story in a more dramatic
fashion because you get to embellas, you get to control
the excitement level, you get to do more wild high
spots because that's accepted within the context of a match.

(28:14):
But tell that story and the way they told it
is something that can be amped up a little bit
and emulated in a future main event, and I bet
we'll see it, if not in one of the big
promotions on the endy scene. Jason, are you going to
jump in with anything?

Speaker 3 (28:28):
You know? I think he covered it. I just say
it stuns me that Bischoff said that to this day
because especially with his martial arts background, I mean, are
you blind? It's very similar to pro wrestling. It's pro
wrestling if it were real exactly. And I mean the
thing I always look at the one thing if they're
going to take anything from MMA that I would like

(28:50):
to see them emulate, look at the crowds reaction. Sometime.
I wish you could do a split screen when the
main event of WrestleMania starts, and and you know what,
even like the mid card match on an Ultimate Fight
Night Live show starts as soon as the bell rings
for both, you see the crowd. They might get excited

(29:12):
at wrestling for a minute, and then they're gonna sit
down and settle into the match because they know it's
not going to end early. Where an MMA, people are
on the edge of their seats the entire time because
they know that fight unless they go to the ground
and it's boring. But as soon as they like come
together and touch gloves and they're ready to start skyking,
that's when people get excited. They don't lose the crowd
right off the bat like they do in pro wrestling.

(29:33):
And there's a way that you don't have to do
it in every match or anything like that, but there
is an easy way to get pro wrestling fans to
buy into the fact that, oh, just because it's the
main event doesn't mean you know, the finish is coming
twenty minutes from now, so I can sit down or
go to the bathroom or whatever. And they don't even try.
And that if they if they don't, if they don't,
if Bishop really doesn't think there's a true comparison, he's

(29:55):
either lying to himself or he's in the wrong business.

Speaker 2 (29:59):
Well, put two two quick items on that I'd like
to see wrestling announcers when matches are on, treat matches
as if the finish can come at any second, and
we're on the edge of our seat because of the
part of what gets conveyed there to the viewer on
TV when you're very apt in your description of the
crowd is settle in. It's going to be a while,
and that takes away that adrenaline rush off. It could

(30:20):
end at any second, and that moment was there for
Frankmer and Lesner, that moment was there for brock Lesnarer
against Shane Carwin, that moment was there for Chill Son
and against Anderson Silva. We thought it would be the
other way around. In the excitement level, the pop in
the crowd when chail Sonnen pelted Silva, considered the best
striker in MMA, to pelt him and send him backwards
in the excitement, Joe Rogan expressed at that moment in

(30:43):
the shock in the crowd, that's what wrestling is trying
to emulate. That's what it should be. That's what it
should have been trying to emulate him before UFC existed
in the early nineties and mid nineties. That's what prosling
has always been about, is that moment so the announcers
need to stop when a match. When a match begins,
they need to stop talking about other things. When the match,
talk about the match, and then there might be a
moment where you can break away briefly, but when a

(31:04):
match is on, talk about the match and the strategy
and what's going on. And that's for all of Matt
Striker's weakness is one of his strengths is he does
kind of try to break down what's happening in the
match in a way that most announcers don't try to.
So yeah, but I was even critical in my report
at mmatorch dot com of Mike Goldberg at the beginning
of matches, and it wasn't his fault. He was instructed
to do it plugging the movie at the beginning of

(31:25):
every fight because Rogan. I mean, one of the most
exciting parts of a fight is what's going to happen
when the fighters first walk out and are ready to
start exchanging or shooting in on each other. And Goldberg's
in the middle of a five or eight second plug
for a movie, and I don't like that. I think
there's a do it during the staredown, do it during
right before ring intros, but UC shouldn't be doing that either.

Speaker 1 (31:47):
Anytime you're watching ww E Raw or SmackDown or AEW
Dynamite in particular, send us an email if you've got
thoughts on the show or a topic you want us
to address or a question for us. Wade Keller Podcast
at PDW torch dot com. Wadkeller Podcast at pew torch
dot com. If there's anything else going on in pro
wrestling that you want us to address on our main

(32:08):
podcast during our mailbank segments, that same email applies Wade
Keller podcast at pw torch dot com. We invite that interaction.
Let us know what you think of what we're saying,
and let us know what you want us to talk
about and ask us specific questions. Wadekeller Podcast at pw
torch dot com.

Speaker 2 (32:26):
Anything else, Steve Yeah.

Speaker 9 (32:28):
Two things that wrestling could pull from MMA is don't
tell the announcers to finish so they you know they can't,
they have to be surprised. And then to the build
up for this fight was awesome because of the shoot
interviews that Chel Snam was doing that I think the
wrestlers should be able to give their own interviews in
that workoff scripts all the time.

Speaker 2 (32:50):
A great point, Steve, and I would even I would
disagree just with one the wording you used in terms
of saying Chill Sonon was shooting. Chill Sana was doing
the opposite of shooting. He was doing pro wrestling promo
to try to earn a huge buy rate so that
he earn a lot more money. He's being a businessman.
And I'm not saying that it didn't happen to coincide
with a lot of truth that he felt, but he
amplified it. He Chill Sna knows pro wrestling, he knows

(33:13):
he's a student of the fight game, including professional wrestling.
And there's a little wink going on when Chale was
saying a lot of the stuff that he was saying
to a certain audience that kind of knows he was
in hype mode. That said, I believe that even though
he was amplifying what he was saying, he believed a
lot of it, and he believed that a lot of
it would get under Anderson Silva's skin. In no way
was it a work in the sense that he and

(33:34):
Anderson Silba were plotting it out ahead of time. But
the shoot comments were dull were Some people just speak.
You know, Phil Baroney doesn't calculate what he says. He
just blah blah blah blah blah. Chill Son is a
smart guy who's thinking through what's the effect of what
I'm going to say? What will be believable, what will
get under Anderson Silva skin and help me win the fight?
What will help sell pay per view by So, I'm

(33:55):
not sure that wrestling terminology works, but I tell you what,
You're right that that type of hype by Jail was
was as good of a promo for a pro wrestling
match as you'll see to build hype for a pro
wrestling match. It was. But you know he's even thought
of being a pro wrestler over the years, so you
know it's just something that he's a fan of and
and knows well. I thought there's no perfect example of

(34:17):
who he reminded me of, but I thought there's even
a little Ray the Krippler Stevens in the approach tail
Sun and took in his promos as I imagine seeing
them as I as a kid, when I remember seeing
Ray the Crippler's first promos as for leaving announcers out
like the out of the loop. As far as who
wins and loses, there's times where I think that would
make a lot of sense. I'm not sure it makes

(34:37):
sense for every single match, but I think maybe sixty
seventy percent of the time you could tell the announcers
pay attention and count those near falls as if you
don't know, and I think it would bring more spontaneity
to it. What do you think, Jason, Well, you know,
real quick.

Speaker 3 (34:49):
I want to address something that I read on in
the chat room earlier from someone who said, well, you know,
help it. Basically, the comment was, imagine how pissed people
would be if Taker and Michaels had ended in twenty seconds.
I'm not suggesting that at all. What I am suggesting
is that you can slowly establish that a wrestling match
can end quickly. You don't want to do you know,
you don't want to start trying to condition fans to

(35:12):
expect that with a pay per view main event, of
course not. But you can you can work it in slowly,
but surely you can do it in a raw match.
You can have a match end quickly that you don't
expect to see end quickly, and you don't want to
just all of a sudden change the way you do everything.
But if you slowly overtime condition fans to know that
the first minute of a match isn't just worthless, then
they're going to start paying attention more and more as

(35:34):
time goes on.

Speaker 2 (35:35):
I think that's no. I think it's a great idea, Jason,
And you write to clarify that it was an honest,
good question on the chat room to say, well, wait
a second, you're not suggesting this, but what would happen
is is that they're doing exactly what you said, Jason,
And occasionally even have a raw made event. Let's say
it starts five minutes before the top of the hour.
And again, this is a totally different attitude than what
WWE and T and I bring to the table. And

(35:55):
I understand that, but nevertheless I would argue the good idea,
and you to be with five or ten minutes to
go on impact or five to ten minutes going raw,
your main eventors come out there and one of them
lets their guard down and the match ends. It's a
free made event, and it's you know, it's not the
end of the world. It didn't pay extra money to
watch the event. But alsodd. The announcers are like, WHOA,

(36:16):
we didn't expect that. What are we going to do?
We got six minutes to kill, Like, you can even
kind of draw a lot of attention to the fact that,
you know, let's say it was miss against Seamus, just
to throw two completely random names out there, and Seamus
totally let his guard down and Miz just hit his
finisher and pinned him because Seamus was distracted by some
woman in the crowd. Again, I'm not just being totally
random with it, but the announcer could go, you can

(36:39):
never take your eye off your opponent and he blew it,
and have ramifications for it. Have Seamus get knocked down
in the contender's list. I mean, you do that, you
more often want to do it mid card, but you
would really establish it where people would remember that for
a long time. And what it would do then is
it would help Michael's an undertaker because fans would at
the beginning of the match, all of them are going

(37:00):
to be thinking the way we think here in the
live cast, as we kind of break down and analyze
the business and what works and what doesn't in strategies.
Most people in the crowd aren't thinking that way, but
they're going to be sitting there going not Oh ww'd
be in big trouble if this match ended in twenty
seconds or two minutes. They're thinking, man Seamus led his
guard down that one time against mis or Triple H
or whoever.

Speaker 8 (37:19):
Oi.

Speaker 2 (37:20):
I'm on the edge of my seat hopefully Michaels doesn't
let his guard down against Taker, you know. And that's
one of those extra little things that you can add
that makes a match feel more important from beginning to end.
And it's just a strategy that especially in TNA, they're
not doing because they're playing to that impact crowd who
just go, this is awesome, this is awesome. And that
was what my VIP blog was on last night on

(37:41):
the VIP website. It was there's such a contrast between
what the crowd reactions were on Sunday night, as passionate
as a lot of those fans were in that building,
versus what reaction the raw audience gave what was happening
in the ring last night on Raw in Sacramento. The
money pop, the pops draw money that are indicative of

(38:01):
people are going to spend their money because they're passionate
about what's about to happen, or they care about the
outcome of a big matches, what happened on Raw last night.
What the type of crowd reaction that you got in
Sacramento that you got in Orlando, that this is awesome
and your hardcore and you still got it. That's a
much different kind of audience reaction that I don't think
has a track record of working on a large scale

(38:22):
on a national level. It's good for the indie scene.
If you want to be a niche promotion selling DVDs
or internet pay per views, you can go that direction
because you're being different. But I think the big money
is in getting people to get wrapped up in the
emotions of the wanting to see somebody win and desperately
wanting to see somebody lose, and having the wrestlers sell
the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat, not

(38:43):
be playing to the crowd for cheers and then hugging
each other afterwards because the crowd popped for their spots.

Speaker 3 (38:48):
Let me add to one day. We can move on
another phone calls here in a second, but I do
want to point out that what I'm talking about has
happened on an individual basis many many times in pro wrestling,
and two of the more modern and examples I can
think of are the Road Warriors and Goldberg. They would
destroy people early on in matches and I don't want
to see one sided squashes like that, but that shows

(39:11):
that if you go back and watch tapes of their matches,
once they hit their stride, people knew the finishes coming quick.
They paid attention, and you don't do it. I'm not
saying to do it on an individual basis. I'm just
saying you incorporated into the overall product, so it's not
just squash matches. But like you said, you know then
people who wonder when that finish is going to come,
they don't just expect. I don't settle in for the

(39:32):
next fifteen minutes. And no it can happen anytime. And
no one is saying and WrestleMania with a twenty second match.
But you know what you could do. Let's go back
to this year Taker and Michaels. Had you established that
the match can end quickly, you could have added another
wrinkle to it by having take Er say he's going
to put sewn. He's not just gonna win, he's gonna
put Sean away in less than two minutes, and then

(39:53):
when it doesn't happen, well, you know what, you had
people on their feet watching for those two minutes, hooked
going can he really do this or not?

Speaker 2 (40:00):
Yeah? I guess the short answer is, there's more ways
to make every moment of a wrestling match more exciting.
There's tools in the toolbox that promoters aren't playing and
that can be played that can add to that level
of excitement. And it goes full circle back to learning
from USC and progressing promoters shouldn't shouldn't and they do.
They're resentful of the fact that we have these kinds
of conversations and they run from it. But go to

(40:22):
a USC show, sit in that car, go to a
small local MMA show, get the feeling. And I've been
to both. I've been to small MMA shows and I've
been to big sellout crowds in Vegas and Minneapolis for USC,
and the energy level that's in that building is the
type of energy level you want to script. You want
to your goal in scripting your show as a progressing

(40:43):
promoter is to get that kind of energy. And I
think there's that a lot of progressing bookers and promoters
and wrestlers have thrown up their arms and they've said,
everybody knows we're fake, so if we pretend we're not,
if we pretend that we're not, they're going to be insulted.
And that might have been true in nineteen ninety seven.
I'm not convinced, but it worked for a few years.
But now when people want it's the same thing they
want when they tune into any form of entertainment a movie,
a Broadway play, a TV show. They want to buy

(41:06):
into it for that hour or two that they're in
that world. Create a world for them, make them believe,
make them cheer, make them cry, give them goosebumps, make
their heart rate race. And that's what happened last night
at the end of Raw. And that's what promoters should
aim for. Because I'm totally convinced that can draw money.
Even in a universe where USC exists, I think that
it actually gives them. It can be helpful, not a drawback.

Speaker 10 (41:33):
Longing for some nostalgia or maybe you want to learn
some wrestling history. Don't miss the nineties pass cast every
Friday on the PW Torch Daly Cast Feed. Alex and
Patrick will transport you thirty years into the past by
taking you through the Torch issue from that very weak
follow news from the WWF and WCW and all the

(41:53):
happenings from across the wrestling industry in real time as
the Torch reported it thirty years ago, and these past
casts every Friday on the PW Torch Daily Cast feed.

Speaker 2 (42:13):
All right, let's go back to the phone lines and
go to area code five oh five. Thanks your patience.
Please state your name and where you're from five o five.
Now you're on.

Speaker 3 (42:27):
Hey, how you guys doing this stuff?

Speaker 11 (42:28):
And you from New Mexico.

Speaker 3 (42:28):
How you guys doing good?

Speaker 2 (42:29):
Vinnie? Thanks for calling? What's on your mind today?

Speaker 3 (42:32):
Hey?

Speaker 11 (42:33):
Well, first and foremost, I wanted to let you guys
know that the VIP membership is just awesome.

Speaker 2 (42:39):
Had it for about a month now.

Speaker 11 (42:41):
Love the roundtable that you guys did over the weekend
for the Hardcore Justice pay per view. We're real good, Jason,
love your side as well. Log onto it periods throughout
the day. Really really good TNA news throughout the day.

Speaker 2 (42:53):
So been on point with that.

Speaker 3 (42:55):
Two things.

Speaker 11 (42:56):
I loved her all last night. I thought there was
a lot a lot of good storytelling. As you guys
said earlier in the show, Seamus is just he's just
really really getting to that point right now. And I'm
thinking he's just going to be huge around this time
next year, maybe even bigger than he is now, and
really really enjoyed it. Question though, I hate to get

(43:19):
into it because I know the spoilers are out there.
I don't want to ruin if everybody else out there.

Speaker 2 (43:22):
You've given him fair morning. If anyone doesn't want spoilers,
just you know, silence your your radio or your computer
or whatever you listen to for a minute, then all right. Right.

Speaker 11 (43:31):
So you know they taped last night for TNA and
they got this injury angle going with r VD.

Speaker 2 (43:39):
I guess what what do you guys think logically?

Speaker 11 (43:41):
Does that make sense? And and and and second of all,
how do you feel bringing Flair's group to go against you?
Step you guys you think it'll work out?

Speaker 2 (43:50):
Or how would you guys do it? Jason, I'll let
you start with that one. We were talking about that
before we went on the air.

Speaker 3 (43:55):
Yeah, the initial reaction. I just checked in my forum
after I posted the story, and there was a lot
of instant hate that Wow, you're you're taking the title
off RVD and you're just and you're you're basically holding
it up and you're having another damn tournament. And then yeah,
I mean, I get it, another tournament. That enough's enough
with that. But here's the here's the I don't even

(44:17):
know how much I'm buying into this, but I'm gonna
play Devil's advocate. If the idea is get the belt
off Rob van Dam, have Rob Vandam move into this
EV two program. Meanwhile, you have this tournament. Whoever wins it,
you established that persons as a good champion too. Somewhere
down the road you have the showdown match, and if

(44:38):
booked properly, which is always the big key with with
Tina in anywhere. But I mean it's always an issue
with TNA, that could actually be a money match if
it's done effectively. As far as the EV two point
zero faction feuding with Fortune, I mean, I guess it's
I'd rather see that than another ECW want to be

(45:02):
pay per view, but I don't. I don't have a
big problem with it. I think that they're really lashing
onto this, and according to people in TNA, that the
powers that we really see this as like their money angle.
They see the ratings going up heading into hardcore Justice,
and they think that EB two point zero is going
to be this big ratings success for him. And I

(45:24):
don't know. I guess jury still out on that one.
I can't say that I feel the same way.

Speaker 2 (45:29):
I think. I think you make you drop a good scenario, Jason,
where if I'm against, I kind of grown when a
champion doesn't lose this title because I think well as
the politics, that they just not have the you know,
the storyline, the confidence to have him lose and figure
he's not going to be done. You know, there's a weight.
I mean, look at chill Sona's not done because he
lost Anderson silv in a real fight. People are dying
to see that rematch.

Speaker 3 (45:50):
You know.

Speaker 2 (45:50):
Some people are making a case that there shouldn't be
a rematch yet he should have to earn his way
back because he lost Marion square, and that's a valid argument,
but it doesn't mean people aren't going to be eager
to see it if there is one. So RVD lose,
so what athletes lose. There's a lot of good wrestlers
in DNA. That's a storyline that said I kind of.
I do see the argument, which is, well, if you're
going to do a showdown in RVD never lost parent square,

(46:11):
and in fact he was taken out in an illegal fashion,
then that that is your backstory. So I would say
just don't do it. Don't do it very often. Pick
your spots. This might be one of the spots that's
worth picking to do it. I'm not sold yet. I
want to see it happen on Thursday. I want to
see how it plays out. I'm not sold yet on
the group in DNA that's viewing with the group from

(46:32):
e B two. I want to see how that plays out.
You know, are is it should eb to be a
babyface group? Is Flare's group the right heel group with
beer money and styles and casaring to be the ones
opposing them. We'll see it could work. But you're right, Jason,
it comes down to execution anything else. Bennie, you know

(46:55):
what that's like. I said, thank you guys for your
hard work.

Speaker 11 (46:58):
You know, with the side, I'm definitely enjoying the VIP
and Jason, I'm trying to get to your VIP here.

Speaker 2 (47:03):
I'm going to do it this week.

Speaker 11 (47:04):
But definitely a lot of good stuff.

Speaker 2 (47:06):
You guys, one more thing too, and you guys.

Speaker 11 (47:07):
Can touch on it, you know, in the after show
or sometimes throughout the show. A lot of people and
I've been hearing a lot of stuff on the internet,
but you know how that is about actually Dreamer being really,
really really the head creative guy at this point or
him and Russ are working a lot more together. Do
you think maybe this would be his idea of this
EV two slash fortune And do you think that he

(47:28):
could make a difference in the booking at this point
if he would where to become the head of.

Speaker 2 (47:34):
Creative It's safe to say Tommy Dreamer probably has something
to do with creating and creating an angle that keeps
Tommy Dreamer employed and on television.

Speaker 3 (47:41):
What do you think, Jason, Well, I can't sit here
and say that I know this is Tommy's idea. I
can tell you that yesterday before the taping, he was
the one in the ring kind of leading the walkthrough.
So I mean he's still involved in all things related
to ECW. And you know, I don't know how much

(48:02):
necessarily creative power he has right now. Do I think
he could make a real difference after Honestly, after watching
that pay per view on Sunday, I assumed it was
going to be an ECW show that would please a
lot of ECW fans, and man, I don't think he

(48:23):
did a good job with it. You look at that
undercard that he put together. I was a big fan
of the original ECW. Those undercard matches had nothing to
do with the original ACW other than they were a
bunch of guys who were in the company and they
were just matches that were randomly thrown together. There was
no history there, and I mean that concerned me a lot.
The only matches that really had history were the top

(48:46):
two Van Damn Sabou, which worked out well, you know,
all things considered. I thought it came across very well.
And then Dreamers match with Raven, which I thought was
an abomination.

Speaker 2 (48:58):
Yeah. Yeah, the Dreamer Raven match was It felt just
so much like people in denial wanting to go back.
And you know, I use analogy sometimes, but the star
quarterback from high school wanting to go back and play
when he's forty two and broken down and hasn't taken
a shirt off on a beach, much less in front
of a pay per view audience. In years trying to

(49:18):
recreate the magic up another time. And there's times that
memories are just left as memories. And I don't understand why,
you know, I mean, I guess I do understand it.
But Tommy Dreamer is not a legend on a national level.
He was relegated to the c show for WWE for years.
Raven has been a garbage wrestler role player for a while.

(49:39):
He was phenomenal at his peak. But not everybody is
able to go into their forties and be either broken
down or not in shape or only willing to use
shortcuts and weapons and spend your life justifying how that
makes you great at your craft when it's a bankrupt style.
And I think that really showed in what we saw
with Dreamer and Raven. They tried to tell their story.

(50:00):
And by the way, I need to say this because
I made a big you know, I made a big
issue of this in this week's prosing Torch newsletter, which
we just put online, by the way, earlier this afternoon,
a twenty page edition with tons of coverage of t
and a hardcore justice, including my cover story, the roundtable
reviews from the staff, where we give our one Totten
scores and review the show each each staff member does that.

(50:21):
My full report including star ratings for every one of
the matches, and Greg Parks with his column on what Next,
talking very specifically about this very subject and where do
they go from here? Brian Hoops comparing the upcoming Thursday
special at WHOLEFM show to Clash of the Champion specials
with w W. That's Brian Hoops in his weekly full
page nostalgia column, Jason Paul, You've got your page two

(50:44):
buzz column full of behind the scenes scoops from that show.
Bruce Mitchell, on an unrelated note, but in his newsletter column,
talks about mister Wrestling two, who we give send our
best wishes to. He had a heart episode, as I
believe they're medically called, if not a heart attack, but
at least a hard episode our cardiac episode, and was
hospitalized after being at Fence the NBA, NBA and WA

(51:07):
FanFest this weekend. Bruce Mitchell attended that convention and has
details on that in his Mitchell's Memo exclusively in this
week's Progressing Torch newsletter, plus my impact report at the
TNA news Wire, and oh more, I'm forgetting about I'm
sure so, but a lot of stuff Tene related. That
newsletter's online and one of the things that I wrote
about and one of the things that I talked about
in the ninety minute VIP after show Sunday Night, and

(51:30):
Bruce Mitchell and Pat McNeil agree with me on this
is the how outraged we were by Tommy Dreamer and
his wife having their young daughters, you know, sitting at
ringside four feet away from their dad getting hit with
a real chair in his head unprotected. It's been enough
you're doing chair shows in general, but to do that
four feet away from your daughters well bleeding and the crowd.

(51:52):
I don't care what you tell six, seven, eight nine
year old kids. If you say, oh, daddy's not really
getting hurt and then they watch a chair, he'd you
win the skull and make a loud noise. You can't
fake that. That's real. That's not fake. You're lying to
your kids. And then you have a crowd of thousands
of people surrounding you reacting as if it's real. They're
not sitting watching it passively like in a movie. These

(52:13):
are fans reacting as if someone's beaten somebody up in
the middle of the street and people ran out of
bars to watch it. That's the reaction that they were
getting at that exact moment, channing these vulgar chants. I
just thought it was it was such bad judgment, not
only for the mom and dad, Teresa No Oneh's Biela,
Mgilla Cutty and Tommy Dreamer to authorize that, but for
Mick Foley to participate in it. When Nick Foley said

(52:35):
he regretted having his young boys watch him get hit
in the head eighteen times by the rock up close,
he said he regretted it, that it was a lapse
in judgment, that it was bad parenting, and for him
to be a special referee and be part of that
again just it was jaw dropping. And then for Dixie
Carter to be sitting there and authorizing it. I don't
know what they were thinking, but it's not my job

(52:58):
to tell someone, oh, here's the age you're kid should
watch it rated our movie. But I tell you what,
that made me uncomfortable. It took the wind out of
my sales, and it didn't enhance my enjoyment of the match.
And I thought it was bad judgment all around for
everybody involved, who was aware that ahead of time and
didn't just vociferously protest that that was child abuse. I mean,
those girls aren't gonna know and aren't gonna be able

(53:19):
to separate in their subconscious and it's just it's bad
on every level. And to me, it was the headline
coming out of that show in terms of what that
what they should be criticized for.

Speaker 1 (53:32):
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(53:53):
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Speaker 2 (54:08):
Viip, Jathan, what what do you think of that?

Speaker 3 (54:13):
I mean that you know that. That's what I called
it an abomination. It was twisted to actually, I mean
Mick Foley especially like you say, and for Dixie Carter,
the president of the company, let's just take the daughters
out of the equation. She sits there and watches a
chair shot to the head. Again, this is miss family.
You know, we're one big, happy family. We care about everybody.

(54:35):
There are wrestlers in that company who are irate that
she continues to tolerate this. They are the only major
wrestling company right now that puts up with that's it
just baffles me. And it's another one of Eric Bischoff's
worst quotes ever, is when you got where do you
draw the line? Well, how about starting right there? Eric,
how about starting there and just banning chair shots to

(54:57):
the head. It's not that complicated. Quit being so stubborn.
It doesn't get that much of a reaction. Just move on,
get with the times, and just move on.

Speaker 2 (55:07):
If it got the best reaction, ever, it's still wrong
to do absolutely. And you know, it was nice. It
was nice that they that they acknowledged in a video
a little on screen message the ECW wrestlers who helped
create the promotion work with us anymore. In other words,
they're dead. That includes fly By Rock of Rock and
Johnny Grunge of Public Enemy, and includes John Cronis, includes
Mike Awesome, includes Bam Bam Bigelow, It includes Pitfull Number

(55:30):
two whom there's Chris Candido, there's other people who are
part of of ECM. I'm sure I'm forgetting a higher
and lower on the card that are dead. Also, it
was nice to put a video message up and acknowledge them,
but to acknowledge their deaths and to not have it
clicked in their mind that maybe not in all cases.
Some of these guys entered as drug addicts and left
as drug addicts, and had they never passed to recent

(55:51):
w they would have been drug addicts and died. But
we live in an arra where we've learned a lot
about chair shots to the head and concussions in general.
Mike Awesome had issues with concussions. Mike Awesome committed suicide.
Mike suicide that was after bounce of depression and headaches.
Every single one is a checklist. And I'm not saying

(56:13):
I did the autopsy. I'm not saying I evalue it.
But nobody can rule out based on the knowledge that
we have that the type of stiff chair shots that
Mike Awesome absorbed, whether it's against Mesodotinoka or whoever, didn't
contribute to his concussion issues and his headaches and his
depression all related to that. So to do a show
that's a tribute to ECW in the late nineties, and

(56:35):
then to do a show that with acknowledge these dead wrestlers,
and then to go out there and spit on their
grave by still doing stiff chair shots to get you
over selfishly when there are so many other ways to
get yourself over even if you're out of shape and
can only get over using weapons. There's ways to use
weapons with canes and cookie sheets, and there's ways to

(56:58):
do chair shots where you put your hands up in
yourself and it still makes a loud noise. And they
didn't have the decency to do that. Dixie Carter, who's
not as invested in ECW and doesn't get wrapped up
in the moment like some of the athletes do, or
maybe I should say ex athletes, she didn't have the
wisdom to say, no, guys, it's not going to happen.
In fact, there's no slack and if you do what,
I'm going to pull the plug on the show and

(57:18):
we'll deal with the ramifications. It's no, no stiff chairs
out of the head. That wasn't done. It was irresponsible
and I thought really hypocritical in the end.

Speaker 3 (57:28):
Well, and let's not forget the reason reportedly that they
didn't air photos a rundown of the people who died
are because they would have had to acknowledge Chris ben
Law and Nancy And okay, what is it that led
that a lot of people. Medical research has shown that

(57:48):
he had the brain of an Alzheimer's patient, So you
are certainly aware of that to the point that you're
not going to air photos because you don't want to
make the tough call of whether or not you include
Chris or you don't include Christian, include Nancy. But yeah,
you go out there and you do share shots to
the head.

Speaker 2 (58:04):
Come on, yeah, no, No, you're right, And I mean
I picked the less known, the less known example in
Mike Awesome. You're absolutely right. The high profile option of
Chris Benoit is just that that should have jumped. And
you know what, though, I've bet a lot of people
in that company and didn't follow the whole thing close
enough and think that she just got in his face
and he snapped, you know, like is testosterone and steroids

(58:25):
as the media has ignorantly portrayed as opposed to getting
the full story, which is that it was a whole
concoction of a lot of things that all came together,
probably quite unique, probably will never happen again in that combination,
Let's hope not. But you're right, concussions and share shots,
cause concussions, concussions can are by all experts that we've
read about since this happened, are the traits of the

(58:48):
symptoms of concussion syndrome and match a lot of what
Benoi was going through in terms of what friends said
about him, that he became more withdrawn, that he became
more depressed. And I think a lot of things where
I play, not just concussions. But again, it's so disrespectful
to the wrestlers. And yeah, on my list, I should
have included Adigera and Chris Benwall. They're so identified with
WWE that I don't those listing guys mostly identified with

(59:09):
ECW in that era. But yeah, that's a big factor too,
So big big thumbs down from a judgment and a
human decency standpoint and a responsibility standpoint for the stiff
chair shots to the head multiple times on that show
and the use of Tommy Dreamer's daughters in that front row.
Big thumbs down to the parents, Dixie, McK foley, Raven

(59:30):
and really anybody in a position of power who has
Dixie's ear. All Right, we have not done a good
job getting through a lot of phone calls, but I
think we've had some good discussions. We're done in the
final few minutes of the show, Jason, I want to
give you a quick chance before we go back to
the phone lines, to give a plug for your website
and also your membership version of that site.

Speaker 3 (59:48):
You know what I'm gonna make just real quick today
because we should get through some more phone calls. Just
head on over to Pro Wrestling dot net and you'll
see all the news that we've been breaking regarding the
TNA Hardcore Justice pay per view, regarding the TNA tapings
this week, I'm going to have TNA Impact spoilers going
on shortly after this show wraps up. We've got somebody
in the building that will be providing those and if
you're interested in membership. We've got a ton of audio

(01:00:10):
over there. You'll get the first look at dot net news,
access to the dot net members forum, and the best
part is you can sign up for as little as
five dollars and fifty cents per month by heading on
over to pro Wrestling dot net. Look for the sign
up page or sign up area right in the middle
of the page and jump on board.

Speaker 2 (01:00:27):
Very cool. I recommend that to everybody listening, progressing dot
net and click on the membership sign up button. All right,
thanks for everybody for patients, I apologize to not get
through a lot of calls, but we just happen to
have callers giving us good questions and setting us off
on ransom commentary today Erico tuoo too, thanks for holding.
Please state your name more of yours from and a
quick question or comment.

Speaker 12 (01:00:47):
Yeah, this is Chris f DC. I just want to
know if you guys think they're getting a false sense
of achievement based on I'm talking about TNA and the
response they get from that crowd the land of considering
it's all vocals, and then that really getting the national
response from the fans outside of Florida. So when the
fans are chanting, this is awesome. They think they're haunted

(01:01:09):
something and they're actually not. That's my question, A.

Speaker 2 (01:01:12):
Good question, Jason, Wyn't you give a quick answer to that.

Speaker 3 (01:01:14):
Are they getting can you? Can you repeat the question?

Speaker 2 (01:01:18):
He's wondering if they're getting a true representative response to
what they're presenting to the fans, considering that it's a
localized audience consisting of a lot of regulars.

Speaker 3 (01:01:26):
And you know they're not. But they also know that,
you know, I mean, they are certainly aware of it.
I think at times they probably fool themselves into, you know,
the things that those people like, we'll see the crowd
liked it, and then the times when they don't like stuff. Well,
I mean it's it's the same old people. But they
are certainly aware of that.

Speaker 2 (01:01:43):
I thought the crowd was maybe the MVP of the
show last night or on Sunday night, I should say,
just because if that crowd wasn't into that show, it
would have been so much worse.

Speaker 3 (01:01:55):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean that's for sure. I mean
it's but at the same time, the I thought the
fans at the first two one night stand pay per
views were the true MVPs of those shows. As well.

Speaker 2 (01:02:06):
Yep, absolutely no. ECW is a brand where you it's
kind of you know, there's a little bit of a
rocky horror picture show aspect to it, where the crowd
wants to participate, and that's great, but I'll still make
the argument if you're in if you're in the business
to make a lot of money, you want to get
the reaction that TNA or that WWE got on Raw
last night and aim for that. This was a funestyal
to show the crowded fund participating, but having Team three

(01:02:27):
D brawl with balls and axle and the gangsters with
a bunch of weapon shots and then just out of nowhere,
as if someone said, okay, show's over a curtain call
and they all just walk out like actors on the
stage for a post play curtain call. I thought that
was just really a strange call on their part two
and really undercut, and I'm sure that's one of the
reasons a lot of the guys you've heard from them,
and I've heard from them, Jason, from some of the

(01:02:49):
other TNA wrestlers were really upset with with that aspect
in particular and the stiff chair shots because there are
some people in TNA, some wrestlers who have been working
to re establish you know what we do. Everything we
do counts, and we're not going to do the types
of things that have caused long term problems.

Speaker 13 (01:03:11):
Are you a fan of AW looking to sit back,
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Speaker 3 (01:03:28):
Then join me Joel and me.

Speaker 13 (01:03:30):
Greg for the All Eleee Conversation Club every Friday on
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Speaker 2 (01:03:58):
Back to the full minds Erico Sixtook, Thanks for your patients.
Please state your name and where you're from.

Speaker 14 (01:04:04):
Okay, I'm David from Arizona. Hey, David, all right, First
of all, I disagree with the caller a like a
half hour ago that said that he thinks the announcers
should be shouldn't be clued in on the finishes. I mean,
I know WCW had that policy in the late nineties,
and I felt that that hurt them quite seconds. Example

(01:04:24):
was that Bash of the Beach Or nineteen ninety six
where Bobby Heenan kind of screwed up the Hogan heel turn.

Speaker 2 (01:04:31):
That's because he knew the finish.

Speaker 14 (01:04:35):
What do you mean Heenan knew the finish.

Speaker 2 (01:04:37):
The guy was drunk. Well, that's why he had the
bad judgment to act like something that no one had
on their mind at that moment was actually something that
was about to happen, and he brought up a possibility
that most people weren't thinking of. And certainly you didn't
want to operate sixty. I know what you're saying. There's
a case to be made against it. But if you're
a really good announcer and you're not drunk, and you

(01:05:00):
and react organically to what's happening in front of you,
I think one of the points of wanting to do
that is David twists to make the wrestlers and the
referee tell a more convincing story. It's a challenge for
them if they know the announcer telling the story isn't
in on it, they don't have that crutch covering for them.
If somebody doesn't kick out at a three count, for instance,
and the announcers for the whole match then have to
stay on the edge of their seat, what what? What

(01:05:21):
else would go? Why? Why do you think that would work?

Speaker 14 (01:05:24):
I just remember the various examples of Doug like I remember.
You probably remember it because so much stuff's happened in
w like I remember when it was I think Slambury
ninety nine. The main event was DDP versus Kevin Nash,
and I remember Eric Bischoff returned television.

Speaker 2 (01:05:42):
Hey, I got not to be rude, but we literally
are not a five seconds Jason Poul Thanks PW Torch
dot com flash go VIPs where you're get a VPP membership.
We will talk to you tomorrow. Pet McNay will be
co host. Thank you for using blog talk radio. Goodbye,

(01:06:10):
all right, Jason, we are now to the VP after
show portion of the program. I mean, it's an interesting debate,
and I think there's a lot of times where and
I've done this before, right, I threw out a premise
where I think something should change about wrestling, and you know,
you put in it. You put a proposal out there,
or some fruit for thought out there. If somebody doesn't

(01:06:30):
really hear the full reason you're proposing it, they don't
really see you address the counterpoints or the downsides and
make a case for why there's more positive than negative,
and you almost see the caveat going. This doesn't work
with drunk wrestling announcers. This doesn't work with lazy wrestling
announcers who don't like wrestling. You know, some of the
stuff you have to you have to add those caveats

(01:06:52):
just to say this is for a certain circumstance. But
I think it'd be better and it would keep people
on their toes. Sometimes people can be critical of an
idea if they only hear some some water down version
of it through message board, you know, the game of
telephone on message boards, or you know, for a little
bit rushed on the radio show. But I do kind
of the idea of having the announcers be in the
position of the fans. I don't see why this. If

(01:07:13):
wrestlers are good at telling their story, why an announcer
a lot of the time not all the time, but
a lot of the time wouldn't be better off not
knowing the finish.

Speaker 3 (01:07:22):
Yeah, I mean, obviously there's going to be times where
they need to know to kind of help tell the
story explain where they're going, but maybe you don't always
have to do that with the finish. I guess it's
just one of those things that they've probably always done
it that way, or at least had, you know, in
recing years that they've done it that way, and they're
probably not going to change anytime soon.

Speaker 2 (01:07:41):
And I think why there'd be some resistance to it
within wrestling is there's a certain way of going about business.
There's a routine, and there's stories that are told. But
I think over time sometimes the agents and the wrestlers
get used to the crutch of the announcer making sure
that they know when to get really excited that we're
going to the finish, or to make something seen convincing
even when it isn't convincing. And I think that if

(01:08:04):
if the wrestlers and the agents and producers went into
planning a match thinking we're going to be live on
TV and the announcers don't know how long we're going
or what the finish is. I think that would keep
them on their toes more. I think, you know, it's
like flying a plane, you know, like this is the weird,
weird example of the throne Jason, But it just crossed my mind.

(01:08:25):
They don't they don't let pilots of commercial airliners wear parachutes.
Why because you don't want the pilots to think, well,
if all else fails, at least I'll be okay. So
you know, I mean literally, you don't want to be
the only You don't want to be a passenger on
a plane where the pilot has a parachute, because the
parachute makes them maybe be less on their toes. To me,
the pilot, the announcers who know the finish are your parachute.

(01:08:48):
And I've made this case before and it's started some
good discussion and it actually ended up getting picked up
within weeks by WWE, and I wrote an editorial on
the Torch saying that referee should not be in on
finishes because that would force the wrestlers to actually kick
out at two. We saw that on Sunday night. It
was Axl roder balismone. I cant remember who I think

(01:09:09):
was acxul. Maybe it was one. Well, it was in
that match where there was a double pinfall and one
of the wrestlers had his shoulders down and didn't kick out,
and the ref just stopped counting, and if the if
the wrestlers entered the match going oh crap, I gotta
be on my toes because this ref doesn't know when
the finish is coming up, and he's going to call
three if I don't lift my shoulder. Guess what that
Russ is going to do. He's gonna lift his shoulder.

(01:09:30):
He's going to make sure he doesn't screw up the match.
But when all these parachutes so to speak, are there,
all these safety mechanisms are there, all the safety nets,
then you get sloppy and you pay less attention. And
so I just think it was it was interesting that
WWE decided to do it. They did it at house
shows where there wasn't a big drawback if you know,

(01:09:50):
if all else failed. I talked to at least one
referee in WW at the time, maybe two who had
talked about you know that they kind of liked it.
It gave them more respect from the wrestlers. Uh. At
that time, they seemed less like props who were just
there to count three and they could ignore them and
you know, and hope they didn't get in their way
the rest of the match. And it made the referees
more important because the wrestlers were actually playing to them.

(01:10:11):
The wrestlers had to play to the referee.

Speaker 3 (01:10:13):
Gudges Well, I was gonna say, I think it would
take the right announcer because Michael Cole, I mean, he
hasn't proved what you were saying. I praise, praised his
performance this week two. But I guess even Todd Grisham,
they both screwed up finishes that they know what the
finish is. So are they actually going to do any better?
And I know, yeah, they're on their toes a little

(01:10:33):
bit more, but I mean these Michael Cole doesn't even
recognize missus old Reality Check finisher, and I just don't
know that they're on their toes enough.

Speaker 2 (01:10:44):
And wouldn't that make them feel like, oh, I got it?

Speaker 3 (01:10:48):
Would That's that's my concern is with these guys. I
don't know that it would with the Jim Moss, Yeah,
of course he's gonna and I think deep down with
you may not even realize this. I think what this
is is your covert way of trying to get all
wrestling announcers to refrain from going He's got him on

(01:11:09):
to w because that would be eliminated once and for
all admitted it would.

Speaker 2 (01:11:14):
I can't, I cannot deny that that that might be
a motivation, but you know, it is a symptom of
the problem. And I would argue that part of why
Todd Grisham is lazy and not engaged in the match
is because he goes in, he looks at a script
and it says they're going eight minutes, sure, and he
looks at that, and that's all he's ever known. That's

(01:11:35):
all he's ever known as an announcer. I mean, I
think I think pro wrestling announcers should be assigned to
do public access cable coverage of local MMA shows so
that they could get used to calling spontaneous action or
even high school football games or hockey, just get used
to not knowing what's gonna happen. So that because imagine
hockey announcers if you're calling overtime in a playoff game
and they're told, oh, we're going to the fifth overtime,

(01:11:57):
this is going to be a long one. Can you
imagine how different the energy level would be when that
puckets dropped at the beginning of the first overtime. It's
they know that they're going to be there for another
five hours. I mean, it would totally change your approach
to that situation. So I guess my argument is all
the arguments against it actually kind of back up what
I'm saying, which is, if Michael Cole didn't know how

(01:12:18):
long the main event was going to go, and it
might be one of those matches, as we talked about
earlier on the show, where the the finish actually comes
a minute into the match, not twelve or eight minutes
into the match. All of a sudden, maybe you end
up with this energy level that actually is contagious that
the fans pick up on because suddenly the announcers don't
know when the match is going to end. There on
the edge of their seat. They're not sitting there looking
at the script going Okay, I'm going to coast for

(01:12:40):
the next six minutes before we get to the high spots.

Speaker 3 (01:12:42):
I guess one issue that comes to mind, and it's
I'd like to see you tried. But one issue comes
to mine as a guy producing the announcers. Vince McMahon
is always going to know when that finish is going
to come. And you know, I mean there is that,
there is puppet Yep.

Speaker 2 (01:12:56):
It's not a perfect it's not a perfect world because
of that, but I bet there's still a way Evince
into this concept. You know, Vince can feed lines to people,
but you know, announcers, but he can also be going.
I mean, imagine being announcer and hearing this the finish
Core company second Standard To's, Well, I finisher come every
second Standard To's Like he just drive them nuts by
he would. I could see him getting like this vicarious

(01:13:17):
thrill out of driving them nuts and talking into the
headsets and seeing if they could stay on their toes
for the whole match. It would be a fun new
challenge for him as opposed to just being the director
telling people what to say.

Speaker 3 (01:13:27):
I think it would really change the way matches are called,
because the current announcers are told don't do play by play.
They want stories to be told that they don't want
somebody just doing move or move out there. And I
think that might almost force them to because I mean,
if they don't know when the finish is coming, how

(01:13:48):
do they know when to tell those stories, And I
just don't know that Vince McMahon would ever go for it.
That might be something p and a cotronto.

Speaker 2 (01:13:56):
Your McMahon injecting him into it is valid. But the
point that you're saying about, well, they don't call the
play by play, so therefore I mean kind of by definition,
what I'm saying is they would part of this philosophy
would be calling the moves a little bit more. But
I'm not saying, like every single move you'd call and
do that kind of play by play because football announcers

(01:14:20):
don't call every single thing that happens. Baseball announcers especially,
I said, don't talk about the score. The graphic on
the screen tells you how much you know what inning
we're in and what runners aren't. Base TV and radio
are very different. I'm not saying that WW announcers or
T AND announcer should sart doing radio announcing, because some
things do speak for themselves. But I do think when
there's certain finishers and you clearly see there's a crescendo

(01:14:41):
in the match and you're getting close to in near fall,
the announcer should break away from whatever little sidebar story
they're telling of, whether it's talking about another angle or
talking about the background of the stewed. When something starts
happening that looks like a finish, we see it in
usc It happens organically, it's not constantly. He just shifted
his leg. Now he shifted his hand. Now he's standing up.
They're not describing it like radio. There are moments where

(01:15:02):
they talk about background because you get a sense when
they're not on the verge of a finish, and that
would still exist in the match.

Speaker 3 (01:15:07):
I think, yeah, possibly, I mean, it would just be
one hell of an adjustment. I think I think TNA
would probably be more likely to take that approach. I
just don't know that Vince is ever going to have
that trust in his announcers, because frankly, I don't think
he thinks any of them are better than he was.
He's delusional. But I mean, I'd like to see a

(01:15:30):
run because I mean, you know me, I'm all about
adding more sports like elements to pro wrestling, and I
think that would be one way of doing it.

Speaker 2 (01:15:37):
Yep, yep.

Speaker 1 (01:15:44):
You don't have to wait for the way Keller PROG
Wrestling post show to find out what I thought of
Monday Night Raw and SmackDown each tweek. You can check
out my reports that are updated live throughout Raw and
SmackDown at pwtorch dot com. I written report will tell
you what's happening in detail in case you missed the show,
and it will also analyze key segments and give my
random thoughts quips on what I am watching as it airs.

(01:16:06):
So check it out every Monday night and Tuesday night
at pewtorch dot com. That also applies to WWE pay perviews.
I cover those live at pw torch dot com with
a detailed written report with star ratings, and of course
you can find other TV reports from other contributors to
pw torch such as nxt roh Impact Wrestling and more.
Check it out pw torch dot com your first stop

(01:16:28):
for TV and pay per views written.

Speaker 2 (01:16:30):
Reports well, very good, good discussion, breaking news. WWE lowest
closing price at twenty ten for their stocks. Not sure why,
but this is primary day Man getting more publicity. She

(01:16:52):
was on Nightline last night on Hardball on MSNBC, which
talks politics constantly. The whole show is about loving politics
and the whole horse race aspect of it. They barely
have mentioned Linda McMahon. They did a segment on her today.
I'm interested to see from a peer WWWEPR standpoint, if
Linda winning, where she's the candidate, we're past primary season

(01:17:14):
and it's Linda versus Blumenthal, that means the Democrats are
going to come out swinging harder than the Republican opponents
for Linda has and if that's possible, but it is.
I think Vincent Mann, I think, is going to become
the Bill Clinton to Hillary. What has Vince McMahon? You know,
what are his the skeletons in his closet are Does
he become more of a story And then do sponsors

(01:17:36):
and do licensees start thinking, oh, man, I didn't know
this about them, or now I'm associated with the company
that's seen as hardcore red Republican when it comes to
you know, somebody in the family running for office, that
can hurt them if they're seen that way. Look what
happened to Best Buying Target when it came out that
you know, is as gay friendly as they were with
their policies. When they sent a big chunk of money

(01:17:59):
to a past that was supporting an anti gay Republican
It turned into a lot of boycotts and a lot
of news stories. So I'm just kind of curious, once
we get past Linda presumably winning tonight, how much does
wwe have a spotlight shown on it in a way
that Vince doesn't really want.

Speaker 3 (01:18:14):
Oh, that's it's going to be fascinating. I mean, this
is what I've been waiting for, because, like you said,
I didn't you knew the Republican opposition was going to
go after them to some extent, but the Democrutch have
no reason to hold back, and so that is going
to be fascinating. As far as the stock price dropping,
I'm going to blame Dolfzigler doing karaoke last night on

(01:18:35):
George Lopez.

Speaker 2 (01:18:37):
There you go, yeah, people, Yeah, I am curious. What
I mean, the lowest price of the year, first time
below fifteen dollars the stock market, I think last night
looked was having a not a good day, but it's
certainly had worse days this year. So interesting. But you know,
those stock those numbers did come out last week with
the low pay per view by rates, and I think
one of the reasons that I'm you know that I'm

(01:18:58):
pushing as much as I am these kind of outside
the box ideas and actually a stock market thing only
close fifty four dollars down, that's not the Dow Jones
only finished down a small amount so percentage wise, so
it was a half a percent down, so not a
big day. So for ww' stock to be down at
something else. And I wonder if analysts aren't start starting
to look at these pay per view numbers that came

(01:19:20):
in and just think they're struggling enterprise to a certain degree,
that one of their cash cows, pay per view is hurting.
And so what I say this is one of the
reasons I talk about outside the box ideas, like to
keep the announcers out of it, and even go back
to keeping the rests out of it, and look to
MMA for ways to tell stories and look at what
happened on Raw on Monday and try to go for
that more often in a lot less towards the kissing
contests that led to NXT's ratings bombing last week. I

(01:19:45):
think that's why it's fun when there is a little
bit of a struggle going on, because that's when people
get creative like this man and try some new things
to spark business. What is the thing that you would
do right now to change the pay per view trend
line right now, especially for the off brand pay per views.

Speaker 3 (01:20:01):
Well, I just don't see it as as alarming as
I think most people do, because I think you got
to go back to last quarter and actually two quarters ago,
because last quarter was Royal Rumble WrestleMania, and yeah, I
mean it's been going down for a while now on
an annual level. And that's that scares me more than

(01:20:23):
what we just saw in those quarterly numbers that came
out simply because those pay per views well, they didn't
look very good on paper. They weren't. They didn't. There's
they don't have any tradition to them, and there just wasn't.
I mean, you should have been able to know going
in that, Wow, these these aren't going to do well.
And meanwhile, if you go back two quarters those pay

(01:20:45):
per views that they changed the names of and went
with the gimmick heavy themes for those shows, they actually
went up compared to the previous year. So I think
it's it's very possible this is just kind of a
rough patch for them, I don't. I mean, yeah, the
injuries and the retirements that have been cited are factors,
but I think more than anything, it was just very

(01:21:07):
generic pay per view offerings for those three shows. Are
you still with me?

Speaker 2 (01:21:16):
Sorry about that? Yes, I am. I had the new
button on the cough button pushed in then onto it.
The moral of your story is make sure you tell
better stories and promote better matches. And I think, yeah,
get away from the concepts and get start promoting the personalities.

Speaker 3 (01:21:33):
Well yeah, I mean, but you can't ignore the fact
that those the true concept pay per views. I mean
over the limit? What's the concept that there is none?
It was just over the limit.

Speaker 2 (01:21:44):
The four way was.

Speaker 3 (01:21:45):
A mess, and I thought it could have been structured
a lot better in a way that would have sold.
And I don't even remember, I guess the hardcore thing, which,
despite TNA's best efforts, hardcore wrestling is dead. The annual
WWE Extreme Rules pay per view. Those three shows bomb,
but you go back Bragging Rights, which I thought was

(01:22:06):
a lousy show. I believe was up compared to the
previous year.

Speaker 4 (01:22:10):
The the.

Speaker 3 (01:22:12):
What's there want to be Hellena Sell the not the
elimination Chamber, but you know it was Hellena Sell. I
was gonna say, I meant to say, I want to
be war games. But you know, Helena Cell was up
compared to what they did the year before. So some
of those gimmick heavy pay per views have actually at
least for one year. We'll see what the trend is
going forward. I've actually done better than some of these

(01:22:33):
very generic shows like the The Over the Limit that Okay,
what is it? What does that even mean?

Speaker 2 (01:22:39):
You know?

Speaker 3 (01:22:39):
I mean, so I'm not as alarmed by it. I'm
more alarmed by the annual trend other than that last
quarter of two thousand and nine when when things actually
took a surprising turn for the better.

Speaker 2 (01:22:50):
Yeah. No, some good points in there, And I think
part of the concern is when anytime you drop on
our one hundred and fifty k for Amy pay per view, Yeah,
it's just jumps out as okay, new low. You know,
it's just as exciting as if you hit a new
highway and new low with the ratings, it's newsworthy and
that's kind of a new low for them. You're right,
if you take that out of the equation. There's some
other things, but WrestleMania is down. I think part of

(01:23:13):
it is the price increase started catching up to people.
Certainly Internet. Internet piracy means as some fans age out
and the younger fans age in. They're used to feeling
entitled to get things that are stolen for free because
they just you know, for whatever is in field, they're
entitled to it. And that's the way it's always been.
And I think WWE has that's a battle. But I
don't think the bay per view concept is dead by

(01:23:33):
any means. But I think part of it is the concept. Matches.
I think sell when they feel like there's an organic
reason for them or there's a tradition behind them. When
there's a concept pay per view every month, you stop,
I think as a fan thinking about the wrestlers in
the match, and start thinking, do I like this gimmick
match as much as one of the next ones coming up? Oh,

(01:23:53):
I'll wait for one of the next ones coming up.
And I think in the end, the emotion that gets
people to push that button on the remote and set
that appointment to call their friends and have to get
together or go to the bar to watch it, it's
the emotion that has to do with the personalities. I
just think there's a certain limit to how the concepts
in the long run will throw when they're there every month,
one after another.

Speaker 3 (01:24:12):
Well, and how much way do you think the PG
factor plays into it? Because it used to be the
Attitude Era, you're catering to an older demographic that controls
that remote control. Now you're catering to families, and yeah,
mom and dad might take the kids to the shows
and whatnot, But are they really going to religiously spend
fifty five dollars for the HD feed for little Johnny

(01:24:33):
and little Susie to watch the WWE pay per view
each and every month? I think if you're catering to
an older and there's certainly a lot of pros to
being PG, but I think this might be an area
where it really hurts them because I just don't think
they're religio religious viewers of the WWE pay per view product.

Speaker 2 (01:24:51):
I'm not insold though, on the idea that because WWE ISPG,
that they're that different than most other wrestling promotions history
that have drawn. I mean, the Attitude era was the exception.
It's not like wrestling has always been Attitude Era edgy.
The you know, the all the sexual innuendo and crazy

(01:25:12):
stuff that they did, and the violence and the blood
and the swearing, and it's not like it's always been
that way. It's it's usually been kind of like what
we see now, and it's been very successful at times
being what it is with even an older adult audience,
a substantial audience. And let's keep in mind ra's average
viewer is still thirty eight years old. You know, it's
not like it's it's it's got MTV two demographics or
the average you know, the average viewers twenty three. The

(01:25:34):
average viewer is middle aged. So I don't think they've
driven those people away. As for ordering the pay per views, yeah,
I think, I mean, I think that's I think there's
I always pull back a little bit from thinking that
the PG versus the r PG thirteen matters that much
because I just don't know that a swear word here
and there, or a little extra violence or even a

(01:25:56):
little extra cleavage makes a difference a big enough difference
at all, compared to a really good product with good
characters that are over in a fight that you want
to see. Because to me, wrestling isn't PG, even when
they say it is. It's a bunch of guys punching
each other and trying to beat each other up and
make each other bleed in order to win a match.
And whether we actually get that blood or not, that
that the concept behind wrestling is still I'm going to

(01:26:18):
beat you up to the point where you can't answer
a three count or you tap out. So to me,
I just I don't think the PG rating is is
that is on my top five list of factors.

Speaker 1 (01:26:29):
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Speaker 3 (01:27:02):
But I really think the glory days of pro wrestling
pay per view by and large came during that attitude era,
because yeah, I mean, it's been done differently and catered
to maybe a younger crowd in the eighties, but that
was kind of the early stages of pay per view
at the time too. And obviously, you know, the big
thing that bench everyone wants to acknowledge publicly is that,

(01:27:23):
you know, back in those glory days, even in the
Attitude era, when they were doing great business and didn't
have to worry about UFC.

Speaker 2 (01:27:29):
That's why four, That's why, that's to me, why it's
not on my top five list. Even with all the
things you're saying, I think what matters more is the
fact that, yeah, there's internet piracy, there's twelve pay per
views at a much higher price than there used to be,
But there's UFC, and USC has take has was not
even legal, It wasn't even on pay per view during
the peak era for wrestling, and it only started getting

(01:27:52):
back on pay per view in two thousand and one.
So I think that UFC in and of itself, no
matter whether pro wrestling is PG or not, I think
USC is going to eat into that, and that's a
problem that wrestling needs to combat. I don't know that
combating af by going PG is necessarily their strategy. I
think the reason their PG is because they want Mattel
as a corporate partner and that they want to get

(01:28:13):
they want to get bigger advertisers, and maybe part of
that is thinking, you know, our future isn't pay per view.
Our future isn't licensing. It is in advertising on TV.
It is in the licensing fees we get from crossover products.
And they may be trying to kind of insulate themselves
from the possibility that pay per view isn't going to
be a huge, huge, twenty thirty percent staple of their

(01:28:33):
revenue going forward. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:28:34):
I mean, for me, the big one though, it really
is that price. And we've talked about it before, but
I mean, I just can't believe the audacity that, with
the economy being, especially in the situation that it was
when they made that switch. I mean, that just stunned me,
Like what are you thinking? And I'll say it again,
they're looking at the forty five dollars number. HD is

(01:28:57):
very widespread and very popular, and I still leave that
people with the HDTVs don't even look at that forty
five dollars number. They're looking at the fifty dollars number
or the fifty five dollars number depending on what's cable
or satellite service they have got.

Speaker 2 (01:29:11):
I saw fifty five for t and an Sunday that
I was about to put push order, I saw fifty
five instead of forty five, and I push forty five.

Speaker 3 (01:29:18):
Yeah, I mean, and some people will some people will
take that discount. You know, for for instance, with direct TV,
I don't even have the option of ordering TNA in
HD because I don't think Direct TV gives a damn
about TNA because they don't even feature them on.

Speaker 2 (01:29:29):
Their main page.

Speaker 3 (01:29:30):
But you know, for WWE, it's always forty five or
fifty five. And I think for a lot of people,
they're used to seeing so many things in HD that
if they I think it's insulting number one, that you're
expected to spend ten more dollars to see the HD feed.
And two, you know, it's the pricing factor. It's just okay,

(01:29:51):
I could order the forty five, and some people will,
but I think there's probably more people to just go no,
I'm not telling you you're five dollars.

Speaker 2 (01:29:59):
On this great point, because I do you know, I
dwell on the forty five dollars price that's up from
forty which is up from thirty five, which is up
from thirty over the last ten years. But you're right.
I mean, for people who are used to HD and
demand HD and won't settle for anything less than HD,
the price didn't go up from forty to forty five.
The price went from forty to fifty five on a
lot of systems, including mine. And yeah, you're right, I

(01:30:21):
mean that's a huge you know, it's one. It's just
it's so weird how human nature is. But people who
are perfectly fine with that regular signal now won't stand
for it. It can't tolerate it, especially because TVs are
bigger now and you can see the detail better and
you're in what you get used to is what you expect.
And yeah, I mean that could be a factor too. Now,
if it is a big factor, the people who are
still ordering it at the higher price, I assume WWE

(01:30:43):
and I don't know this gets the same percentage cut
from that amount, so they should have extra revenue coming
in even when the buys are down. That could help
absorb some of it. But clearly, with the stock prices
and the fallout from you know, the financial report, the
second quarter financial report last week, the people aren't. The
people who study this for a living don't like what
they see.

Speaker 3 (01:31:02):
And you know, I don't know what day it was with,
but one of your callers after the numbers came out,
made an awesome point, and that's Vince. It was all
doom and gloom with him and always the perfect storm,
the Icelandic volcano and Hunter and Undertaker being injured, Sean
and Batista retiring. Where was all the hype for? But
this really forced our hand and it turned out to

(01:31:24):
be a blessing in disguise, And yeah, we're paying the
price for it now, but long term, we've got Seamus,
we've got Nexus, we've got Jack Swagger, we've got all
these new stars that we've been forced to groom and
build and it's going to pay off for us and
the long term stick with us. And there was none
of that. It was the weirdest presentation ever. And I
don't think I had anything to do with the number today.

(01:31:46):
But I sat here listening to that conference call and
I'm thinking, if I had WWE stock, I selling right now.
It just was I don't know what was going through
his mind with that.

Speaker 2 (01:31:56):
Well, maybe maybe you can rule out that at the factor,
you know, I mean, stockbrokers are like, you know this
not only not only don't we like the numbers, but
we didn't like the tone of the creative force who
was in charge. So and maybe it's maybe it's anticipation
of Linda winning tonight and Nightline yesterday, you know last night.
I mean, this isn't cable news where you know, it's

(01:32:17):
it's what slice of one percent of the electorate do
you have viewing you? In the case of Nightline, it's
a big percentage of people who that's a big number
who watch it as a prestigious show. Last night, they
did a story in Lenna McMahon and pro Wrestling and
it wasn't I mean, it wasn't a hard piece. It
was I would call it a relative fluff piece for
what I think they should be doing. But it brought
up drugs, It brought up the R rated factor and

(01:32:38):
cutting back to PG and it you know, maybe that
put Linda on Linda and Vince on people's minds. They
saw some of that controversial footage of Edge, you know,
bending lead to over while standing in his in his briefs.
And and I don't think the Katie Vick stuff was
on there, but a lot of controversial stuff. Maybe it
was just led to a mass selling today because of
Nightline last night. Who knows, we might see more of

(01:32:59):
that in the next couple month leading up to the election.

Speaker 3 (01:33:01):
I don't know if he listens, but I would like
to personally thank Vince McMahon for giving up on this
excuse of communal viewing habits that he has for that
he offers, because let's be honest, the pay per view
price increase, if anything has driven people to get together more,
it's that, and it's you know, I mean, come on,
there's more people getting together on a Saturday night to
watch a UFC show, even if you just go by average,

(01:33:25):
because it's Saturday night, it's party night. How many people
actually want to just get out of their house and
leave on Sunday night? Some will, But that is such
as just ridiculous excuse. And this month it was last
I'm sorry, last month was we're not going to do whatever.
Last quarter I should say, we're not going to do
what everyone else does and blame the economy. This quarter, oh,
you know, the economy is tough for everybody. As he

(01:33:47):
just keeps changing his too, and he's not very good
at this.

Speaker 2 (01:33:50):
Yeah, and I think he's notoriously moody and whatever day,
that was a numbers come out and he's got to
talk about it if he's not feeling optimistic in a
good mood. I bet if you did the presentation today,
he'd feel better because Rob got the great pop last
night and it was a successful show from a storytelling
standpoint and all that, but he had to react to
it at the moment that those numbers. You know, well
he had chance to see the numbers before they were released,

(01:34:11):
I'm sure, but you know, having the dooming gloom attitude
last week certainly undercut that sense of optimism. And there's
a lot of reasons for optimism, and I think one
of his jobs should be to talk in that way
without sounding like he's just.

Speaker 3 (01:34:22):
All hype yea. And he also failed miserably when it
came to stressing the fact that we're finally getting the
hell off my network TV and Smackdowne's going to be
relevant again.

Speaker 2 (01:34:32):
Yeah, yeah, Jason, thanks so much. As always a pleasure
on Tuesdays. Thanks to everybody for listening to us. This
audio show is copyright TDH Communications and Progrestling Torch and
is not to be reproduced without permission from me Waight Keller.
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Speaker 3 (01:35:24):
Also, well, thank you very much and I always a
good time.

Speaker 2 (01:35:27):
Thanks Jason. Until next time on be happy, Jason. Paul
wad Keller of Prossing Torch signing.

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