15 YRS AGO: Keller & Powell discuss PWTorch Draft Results, Hell in a Cell, Head Trauma in Pro Wrestling and MMA

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
You don't have to wait for the Way Keller Pro
Wrestling post show to find out what I thought of
Monday Night Raw and SmackDown. Each week, you can check
out my reports that are updated live throughout Raw and
SmackDown at pwtorch dot com. My written report will tell
you what's happening in detail in case you missed the show,
and it will also analyze key segments and give my
random thoughts quips on what I am watching as it airs.

(00:26):
So check it out every Monday night and Tuesday night
at pewtorch dot com. That also applies to wwepayperviews. I
cover those live at pw torch dot com with a
detailed written report with star ratings, and of course you
can find other TV reports from other contributors to pw
Torch such as nxt roh, Impact Wrestling and more. Check
it out pwtorch dot com your first stop for TV

(00:49):
and pay per view written reports.

Speaker 2 (01:10):
Now, PW Torch and Spreaker bring you the Wade Keller
Pro Wrestling Podcast.

Speaker 1 (01:19):
Ten years ago this week on the PW torch livecast,
I was joined by Jason Powell from Pro Wrestling dot
Net on what would become the flagship. It still is
a flagship. Jason just on with me earlier this week,
and on this episode we talked about Mick Foley's publicity
for his book and how mix started seeming like he
got a little full of himself and maybe a little
uh leaning too hard into telling everybody about the charity

(01:41):
work he did, some of the humble bragging that kind
of became his trademark, and his estimates of how the
new book that he wrote would do without Dotobe supports.
We kind of analyzed that stage of mcfoley, a beloved
figure in pro wrestling, deservedly so for so many reasons,
but this was a time when some people were kind
of tilting their head a little bit. Also, we talked
about raw, Helen Asell head trauma and pro wrestling, Chris

(02:03):
Jericho's apparent Dougho B sendoff, and more current event topics,
and then in the previously VIP exclusive after show, we
discussed in depth that year's PW Torch Draft result, which
was a format that we did regularly back then where
readers and staff would vote for who they would draft.
If they got their pick of any wrestlers to start
a new company, who would they pick and why so
we went in depth on that. That's in the previously

(02:24):
VP exclusive after show near the end of this podcast,
So let's get to it. This originally live stream on
September twenty eighth, and it is today's Waydekeller Pro Wrestling
Podcast fifteen years ago flashback for Thursday, October two, twenty
twenty five. Oh, Welcome to PW Torch live cast. This

(02:46):
is Pro Wrestling Torch newsletter editor and PW torch dot
Com editor Wade Keller. It is Tuesday, September twenty eighth,
two thousand and ten, and I am joined today as
usual on Tuesdays with Jason Powell of Pro Wrestling dot Net.

Speaker 3 (03:01):
How's it going, Jason, Good, getting anxious for some live
wrestling again after the pre taped edition of Raw.

Speaker 1 (03:08):
And even the tape delayed edition are all last week?

Speaker 3 (03:10):
Yeah, exact. Yeah, so it has been a while and
we'll get live Live smack Down on Friday and Live
Impact next week.

Speaker 1 (03:17):
I'm not quite sure what government official is in charge
of enforcing this, you know, in the SEC or something,
but last week they put live on the screen and
they weren't live. I mean, I'm quite sure that they
were on tape delay. So again, I know government has
better things to do than to start handing out fines
for a forty five minute or hour time delay. But
I thought it was a little deceptive of WWE to

(03:38):
call last week's show live when it was airing on
tape la.

Speaker 3 (03:41):
So yeah, you know, either they were it was a
tape show or I had a very clairvoyant correspondent.

Speaker 1 (03:48):
Word on this show.

Speaker 3 (03:50):
And I also got to kick out of some of
the websites out there that as you know, the tapings
are unfolding, suddenly they had this massive scoop to Chris
Jericho's backstage is going to wrestle on the show.

Speaker 1 (04:01):
I love that. Yup, wow, yea that going on? Uh huh, Well,
our number here is six four six two weights. We're
gonna talk about lugged into my account here on the chatroom.
The chatroom is open, we are we're taking your calls
for the whole hour, and we can talk about rob
we can talk about hell in a cell, we can

(04:23):
talk about this upcoming impact. I think obviously Jason, we're
gonna ask some questions, so we might as well lead
with it. What was with the plug for mc foley's
book by Michael Cole that that, to me was the
headline of the show last night.

Speaker 3 (04:34):
Yeah, you got me. I don't know. I mean, to
the best of my knowledge, fully is still underr TNA
contract and isn't going to be the anonymous general manager,
despite many guesses of that in my email this morning.
But my guest, WWE just felt like being nice. I
don't know you know anything about this way.

Speaker 1 (04:51):
I just know I think Mick maybe was on a
kill him with kindness offensive and wanted WWE to maybe
get a whole of the book and see that he
didn't take any digs at them. And you know, he
is a legend. He wants to be a Hall of Fame,
you know, hall of Famer someday. So maybe he's been
reaching out to them and realizes, you know, TNA isn't

(05:12):
going to be a place where he's a real difference
maker and maybe his long term future does does reside
in uh in WW and so maybe he has been
reaching out and part of that part of that deal
was will give your book a plug, because I mean,
Mick wants this book to do well, you know, I mean,
Mick wants everything he's involved in to do well. That's
how he measures himself, and I think he is eager

(05:32):
to see, uh, this book do better the number six
in the New York Times bestseller list, which I can't
imagine a book written about a wrestling angle leading to
a pay per view that nobody remembers other than maybe
Mick Foley. I'm just not sure that that's really going
to the land of the top six, but who knows.

Speaker 3 (05:49):
Yeah, well, he's being very He was very honest about
it in an interview that he did with Brian Fritz
at FanHouse where he was talking about I think he
said if this book, he expects this book to do
around five percent sales of what the others did, and
he'll be content with at just knowing that he doesn't
have the WWE machine behind it. And I think it
was actually.

Speaker 1 (06:09):
Rest setting expectations low well.

Speaker 3 (06:12):
And it was a refreshing interview because he also said
in that interview that he gets too much airtime on
TNA Impact. It was like we've seen Mick kind of
get a little full of himself over the years, and
I thought that interview really stood out of me. Is
maybe mixed finally coming back to earth a little bit.

Speaker 1 (06:26):
I hope so you know, I'm a little suspicious because
I think this is something that has to be proven
over time. He's got a book to sell. I think
he's heard the criticism of him. To me, it's not
somebody's saying, oh, I have too much airtime, or I'll
be happy with five percent sales. I mean that's good,
that's a step in the right direction. But the issue
with mc foley has been that there's this sense with

(06:47):
every move he makes and everything he says and everything
that is so self absorbed. It's so measured. And I
know he does charity work, but he managed in the
first seventy pages of that book to talk about the
charity work so much much I practically resented the fact
that he did charity work. To me, charity work isn't
something that you go out and you write seventy pages
about over and over and over again, and you can say, oh,

(07:09):
but i'm a celebrity. I'm raising awareness of it. Yeah,
there's a way to do that without And I know
his book was written as a diary. Here's what I
did today, Here's what I did today. But it's just
part of this ongoing pattern. And so even if mc
Foley's downplaying how much he thinks he should be on TV.
There's still to me that it's going to take some
time to get away from the idea that he's still
talking about himself in a way that comes across as

(07:31):
if he's measuring his self worth based on how much
other people are talking about hi or how much famey achieves.
And it's something that I think has rubbed the number
of people the wrong way. So I'll keep in mind.
I mean, I'm going to keep an open mind on this,
and maybe, you know, maybe he had kind of an
epiphany moment where he's like, yeah, you know, I probably
was a little too wrapped up in thinking about myself
as this third person in a third person type perspective.

Speaker 3 (07:53):
Yeah, I'm a little bit nervous to you about that
movie that's coming out about mcfoley's career, and if he
is still with teams, and I assume he's going to be,
I just don't know. I mean, I don't know what
their aspirations are, if they're looking straight to DVD or
if they actually think this is going to play in theaters.
I mean, there was a time where this probably would
have done very well for TNA or I'm sorry for Foley,

(08:14):
but boy, I mean, it's been on a decade at
least since his first autobiography came out, and he just
doesn't mean as much as he used to.

Speaker 1 (08:22):
Yep, I know, I know. Well anyway, the Helen of
Cell hype concluded last night, and I thought that it
just it was two weeks isn't enough time. And I
think we got that sense by the end of the
show that I don't think there was that time to
make it seem like the Helen of Cell needed to
be there. I think when the Helen of Cell concept

(08:44):
was created, there was a match that was just waiting
for that that concept, the cage to be built around
at the cell, and it was it was about the feud,
and that cell enhanced it. And now it sort of
seems like the cell is sitting there waiting to be
filled and whoever happens to be feuding it's going to
be thrown into it. And I think it really does
diminish the concept of the hell and of Cel being

(09:06):
a way to solve a few that can't be solved
any other way. When you throw Daniel Brian and MS
and John Morrison into it too, and I just don't
think two weeks is enough time. And I don't like
the idea of Helena cl being a pay per view theme,
and I think that kind of culminated with the forced
type and rush type for the pay per view last night.
Not a bad addition, a raw I just it just

(09:26):
it there's not enough time to do what they need
to do in the Helen of Cell format. As a
pay perview concept just doesn't work with me, even if
they promoted decently well with a limited time that they had.

Speaker 3 (09:36):
I feel the same way. In fact, in my hit
list today, I gave the show a lot, a lot
more hits than misses, but I gave the overall show
and missed because I felt like it's two most important
then the most two most important things they should have
been gunning for heading into that show was obviously promote
Helena Cell and also really hyped the heck out of
that live addition to SmackDown on Friday, where you can

(09:57):
do more hypeer Helena Cell, and I just didn't think
they did very effective job of either.

Speaker 1 (10:02):
Yeah, yeah, you can support us on Patreon and get
these shows with ads and plugs. Remove the weight. Keller
prosing podcast, Weight Keller, prosing post shows, and the PW
Torch daily cast throughout the week with ads and plugs
remove plus a few bonus VIP shows throughout the month
for just four dollars and ninety nine cents a month,
check it out patreon dot com slash PW torch VIP.

(10:26):
That's patreon dot com slash PW torch vip and you
can also upgrade to other tiers and receive even more
benefits through Patreon. Well, why don't we go to the
phone lines, as promise Jason, if anybody wants to join
us here on the show and ask a question or
make a comment. The numbers six four, six, seven one
nine A two Weight shouldn't be a long wait. We've
only got three people on hold today, so you can

(10:47):
be fourth in line if you call up right now.
Six four six seven two one nine A two wait. Actually,
we just lost someone, so there's only two in line,
so short wait today. Let's go to our first caller,
aery code three two three. Thanks for calling. Please state
your name and where you're from.

Speaker 4 (11:01):
Hello, I'm Jack from Hollywood.

Speaker 1 (11:03):
Hey Jack, how's it going.

Speaker 5 (11:06):
Good?

Speaker 1 (11:06):
Well?

Speaker 4 (11:07):
Okay, my question today was a little clarification, Like, remember
when Jericho did that promo last night with the you
know the list, was that reminiscent of the you know,
actually paying homage to the Man of thousand and four
Holds promo.

Speaker 1 (11:25):
Oh I assume so? Oh you sure?

Speaker 3 (11:27):
Yeah? And I'm actually linked to that promo in the
hit list today too. I definitely absolutely the commercial break
right in the middle of it the same thing.

Speaker 1 (11:34):
So absolutely, and I liked it quite a bit. That was,
you know, part of the TNA theme. We got Kevin
ash and Sting and who else was mentioned in that
from TNA. Oh geez, Kevin Ash Sing and somebody Elwen Flair. Yeah,
those are the three guys Jericho the City Beat. Yeah,
it was an homage too. I mean that was a
breakout interview for Jericho. I mean that was a breakout

(11:55):
moment for him. That was when he was struggling to
break through the ceiling of politics and w c W
where you had to have been a main eventor in
the early nineties or eighties to get a push or
have been a Madison's Coort Garden headliner. And and that
was a promo that you know, people loved and it
epitomized what it was that people loved about Jericho, so
I thought, you know, if that's Jericho's last appearance on
Raw for a while.

Speaker 6 (12:15):
It was.

Speaker 1 (12:15):
It was a good It was a good sendoff, and
I did get the impression with a punt kick that
they were writing him out for a while. As the
heat really did shift immediately to Orton I mean to
Shamus against Orton, Jack anything else.

Speaker 4 (12:27):
It was Oh yeah, I mean it was interesting when
all those TNA mentions yesterday. You know, you usually what
they do is, you know, they act like once they
go to TNA they only exist, like the right Hogan
off of the opening video like that.

Speaker 1 (12:40):
Yeah, but yeah, that was interesting.

Speaker 4 (12:42):
But my other question would be, uh, I do regularly
watch like SCW TV. Then my question is who do
you if you guys you know, keep tracking anyone from SCW,
who do you see as a like breakout next John
Cena maybe of.

Speaker 1 (12:58):
SCW Uh, Jason. I haven't watched much f CW have
you lately?

Speaker 3 (13:03):
No, I don't have access to And in fact, if
the caller wants to help, I'm always looking for U
reports on that show if you're if you're interested at all, Oh, I.

Speaker 4 (13:13):
Mostly hear it from like my friends in Flawen and
he send me case stuff but online, but what Tam
you know, like I know they have like their world
champion I believe is like this guy who looks like
a British Batista or something like that.

Speaker 1 (13:28):
No, it's it's Anario. Yeah, I mean Jack at scenario
I feel guilty about because I probably should, you know,
pursue getting footage of that. I mean a lot of
the guys we've seen on nxtre are FCW guys. Yeah,
So I mean we can answer the question now in
that regard to and and look at who we think
are our our potential breakout starts from from the NXT group, Jason,
is there anybody really the last two seasons, including the

(13:50):
current NXT group, who are the next breakout star the
ones who aren't you know, main roster members right now?
Alex Riley probably probably qualifies now as a main roster members.

Speaker 3 (13:59):
Yeah, Alex r he does. I'd certainly say Wade Barrett.
It just stands out over everybody at this point. As
far as guys down there that I'd like to see
them call up Husky Harris, but he really did a
nice job on season two. He stood out in a
big way. And I know he's not their typical you know,
cut from their typical mold, but I think he'd be
a really nice addition in the in the right program.

(14:19):
Keep an iron Richie Steamboat. He just his father really
did things the right way with him, didn't just rush
him into developmentally. So sent him to Harley Race, sent
him to Japan, and he got a lot of different
types of training before he actually signed his developmental contract.
So he's one to that I'm going to be keeping
an eye out for.

Speaker 1 (14:37):
Yeah, I like I like Tusky Harrits too. I Wade Barrett.
Part of me thinks wad Wade Barrett is getting a
push because he's really tall, and he's got a British accent,
and and and he can talk on the mic better
than like David O'DONNKA did last night or Michael Tarbor
did last night, which I didn't think those were I mean,
I thought it would looked like YouTube, you know, teenager
YouTube rehearthal promos. They were not good. But Barrett has

(15:00):
that in factor. But we're still waiting to see him
put that together in a match that makes us think
he can take it to that next level. You know,
it's kind of what people are waiting for, Brutus, Magnus
and TNA. Can he have that main event quality match,
that epic match, And I don't know that we've seen
it with him yet, but that potential is there. But
Husky Harris is one of those guys you hope gets
a chance. You hope that they don't, you know, just say, well,

(15:22):
you know you don't. You don't fit our body type,
and so where it's just a struggle year after year
after year for him to get attention and he ends up,
you know, discouraged. You know, it's like Trevor Murdock. I
think it deserves better than he got. I think he
has a unique look. He's a throwback, but he's someone
you can position today and have him make everybody else
look Having people like him on the roster makes the
guys who look muscular stand out more. And so I

(15:45):
hope body type isn't the main thing. But anyway, Jack,
thanks for the call, and thanks for the unintentional nudge
for me to get on get caught up on FCW
from this year. All right, let's go back to the
phone lines. Eric code eighty five six. You're on the
Life cast. Please state your name and where you're from.

Speaker 7 (16:03):
Hey, guys, it's Chris from upstate New York.

Speaker 1 (16:05):
How are you. I'm good, Chris. What's on your mind today?

Speaker 7 (16:10):
I'll presence my question by saying that I haven't been
on the website today, and I've actually missed the show
in the last week. But I saw a story on
the website a guest editorial arty. I don't know what, gentlemen,
I don't I don't know who he was, but regarding
the recent research about head trauma and how he felt

(16:33):
the need to detach himself from UFC, and he was
really like upset about it.

Speaker 1 (16:37):
It was real dilemma.

Speaker 7 (16:39):
I've heard a lot of talks.

Speaker 1 (16:41):
What's that? I'm sorry, I just confirmed. Yeah, yeah, I
know what you're talking about.

Speaker 7 (16:45):
All right, all right, So anyway, I've heard a lot
of talk on the show about the concerns that you
guys passed with head trauma, like in wrestling. Uh, not
just in the context of like the Ben Wass story,
but like with unprotective care shots. And my question is
the long way to get there is, do you guys

(17:08):
share the sentiment of the gentleman that wrote that column?
Do you feel that the same applies for pro wrestling,
and do you do you share the same I guess
line of thoughts between the two. And if the other
part is, if you weren't covering pro wrestling, would you

(17:28):
have a similar moral objection to hey, this is really unnecessary.

Speaker 1 (17:35):
I don't know that.

Speaker 8 (17:36):
I hope I.

Speaker 7 (17:36):
Culate articulated, and every.

Speaker 1 (17:41):
I do not have. I'm my position isn't where I
would stop watching either USC or pro wrestling based on
the safety issue with fighters or wrestlers. But I respect
that an individual can make that decision. And I think
I've been Trembo, who's a long time Torch reader, I

(18:01):
mean going back practically twenty years, I think, and he is.
He's a respected MMA writer. He was one of the
he's been a long time writer for MMA Weekly, going
back soveral years. And really, really really knows that this
isn't some just fan who wrote in who's a French fan?
I mean, this is somebody who is hardcore MMA. But

(18:22):
it got in. You know, we've had some letters on
this saying, well, you know, everything is dangerous. You know,
the frankly stupid lines like getting out of bed in
the morning is dangerous. Or every time you get in
your car and drive, it's dangerous, and you know, it's like, well, okay,
then don't wear your seatbelt, and you know, while you're
at it, why don't you textroll you drive since you're
gonna die anyway. I mean, it's all a matter of degree.

(18:42):
And I think what Ivan's concern is is we're learning
a lot more now and in this year has been
a breakthrough year in terms of knowledge that we've gained
on the what kind of long term damage brain trauma does.
That isn't something that can be measured in the short term,
and so I think it is something that deserves attention.

(19:04):
It's not something to be blown off. And some people
would say, well, you don't want to overreact because while
you know, firefighters risk their lives, and police officers risk
their lives, and and you know, skydivers with their lives
or skydive instructors. I mean, I get all that. I
get all that. The point isn't that the sport needs
to absolutely go away. The point simply is there is

(19:27):
there a larger trade off than we realized before for
our enjoyment and are we irresponsible by feeding money into
the machine that lures these young athletes who want that
fame and money. Do you have a personal responsibility by
contributing to that, by watching it, paying for pay per views,
by merchandise, whatever. Do you feel like you're contributing to

(19:49):
something that's basically dangling money in front of adults but
still young adults who want money and want fame. Are
you dangling money in front of them to put their
their their long term health at risk? And the answer
is yes. But the question is are enough safety measures
being done where at least the choice is an educated choice.
At least the choice is an informed choice, and is

(20:11):
the promotion doing everything it can to protect the integrity
of the sport, while at the same integrity is not
the word the create to not dumb it down to
the point that it's almost, you know, amateur wrestling, you know,
where it just becomes greco roman wrestling. Is there a
balance being found? And I think Iven Trembo when he
wrote that article, just came to a personal decision that
I think is worth raising, which is, you know, do

(20:33):
you feel comfortable knowing what we've learned this year? This
is new information, It's confirmed. There was concern before, Now
it's confirmed. Blows to the head lead to long term
brain damageers can lead to various diseases, and so is
it as big of a deal in pro wrestling as
MMA That I don't have an answer to right now,

(20:54):
because pro wrestlers fight or you know, work at matches
way more often, but they don't have actually hit each
other in the head. But they do take a lot
more bumps, a lot more falls, And I think we've
taken some steps with banning or not banning, while banning
to a certain extent in most areas stiff chair shots
to the head. I haven't yet, in my mind come

(21:14):
to a conclusion whether I think being a pro wrestler
or an MMA fighter is more dangerous because they're very
they put athletes go through very different things. But the
head trauma that an MMA fighter absorbs in one match
is much great in one fight, is much greater than
one match for a wrestler, I think, on average. But
they fight so rarely relative to wrestlers, so it's a

(21:35):
tough call. I mean, I've gotten letters on both both
ends of the spectrum. It's gotten a lot of response
from MMA torch readers, and I think it's good to
at least get people thinking about the fact that these
are human beings who are being drawn to something that
they love. They probably do it without money to a
certain extent, but once you get into the USC on
the big stage, when that money is there and that
fame is there at a higher level, people start making

(21:57):
more sacrifices than they might otherwise. And I think it's
important for the Dana Whites of the world, the athletic commissions,
and really the fans and the writers to at least
keep that on the forefront of our thought that a
price is being paid for this and are we doing
everything we can to minimize the damage. So that is
kind of my unprepared extemporaneous thoughts on that.

Speaker 9 (22:16):
Need an extra dose of positivity in your wrestling podcasts,
will come join me Alan fourrel Over in the Prograst
Paradise at Ptero Torch vip as we mask on the
bright side of wrestling and focus on some of the
great matches and shows from around the world, be it
the US, Japan, Europe or Mexico. There's always a place

(22:37):
for wrestlings past in the Paradise too, and we've done
fun historical shows such as the We Love Liger series
celebrating the glorious career of Jusian Thunderliger and our eye
was there when shows where our guests will join me
to talk about a classic bout that they were in
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of it at the Prorest Paradise. Detailed PW of Torch

(22:59):
VIP subscription information on a list of all the VIP
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And yes, all VIP podcasts are compatible with popular podcast
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you in the Paradise, Jason.

Speaker 1 (23:22):
I don't know if you had a chance to read
I've in treboth article. The name's probably familiar to you.
Any any thoughts on that subject, and it applies to
the NFL too.

Speaker 3 (23:30):
That's just it, you know. I think Eric Bischoff was
right to an extent when he says you have to
know where to draw the line. I think Eric Bischoff
was wrong in where he personally draws the line because
he doesn't think there's a problem with chair shots to
the head and wrestling and I boy I mean, for me,
I worried in wrestling, even after WWE banned chair shots
to the head, that there was still going to be

(23:51):
indie promotions out there that would find it acceptable. I
never thought that the second biggest pro wrestling company in
the country that are in the world would still condone this.
I think it's ridiculous. But as far as professional sports go,
let's face it, I really believe there's always going to

(24:12):
be an NFL and there's probably always going to be
a UFC. I mean, I think there's a little more
scrutiny on UFC at this point. You know, there's still
in a lot of ways in their infancy, but they're
always going to be there, and so you're right, it's
just a matter of doing everything you can to protect
these guys within reason. I don't want to watch, like

(24:33):
you said, glorified amateur wrestling. I don't personally feel guilty
when I watch the fights, and I feel less guilty
every time another report comes out and tells and basically
lets these guys know what they're in for, you know,
or what they could potentially be in for. So I
just as long as they continue to do the research

(24:54):
and react to the research in a positive way. I'm
not going to feel guilty about watching the NFL or UF.

Speaker 1 (25:00):
See yeah, yeah, And I don't. I don't think people
should feel guilty for watching. And I just think it's
it's important to be aware and if you're just a
fan watch, if you're quote just a fan watching the
product and it's offered and you enjoy it, I don't
think you should feel guilty over that within reason. You know,
you know the line of Eric Bischoffel where you drive

(25:20):
the line. I mean it's one of the dumbest things
said by a public figure this year, to be honest.
I mean it's just like, well, you start somewhere and
you work your way towards a common sense place to stop.
You don't just never make any decisions because you're not
sure if you'll make the right decision about where to stop.
I mean, it's just it was just a dumb, callous
thing to say. I'll bluntly put it that way, But
I think this is this is a lot of new
information this year to digest, and and the fact that

(25:43):
some of the stuff doesn't take effect for twenty twenty
five years makes it all the scarier because we have
amplified up the violence in sports. The NFL is harder
hitting than it once was, and the pads make it
easier to not get knocked out instantly, and helmets make
it easier to not get knocked out instantly, but it
makes you able to absorb more punishment over time, and

(26:06):
I think we have Those are things that it's important,
I think for fans to let the leagues know, to
let the athletic commissions and the promoters and the fighters know.
You know, we want to feel good about the sport
that we follow, So please do your job and make
sure that fighter safety is taken into account. And you know,
to me, this just what what upset me was last
year when Dan Anderson hit Michael Bisping after Bisping was

(26:26):
obviously knocked out, and there were people defending that, going, well,
the rule is, you know, you don't stop until the
ref gets in between you and your opponent and you
know the fight is over. Because sometimes mail sometimes a
fighter will come back after looking like he's knocked out
and that was just be. It will just bes because
I don't care what kind of heat of the moment
you're in. I think fighters need to know. I need
to have a level of respect that you don't hit

(26:48):
a guy who's knocked out cold, no matter what kind
of adrenaline Russia Field, no matter what kind of trash
talking happened before before it, which made it even worse.
You know that Dan Henderson threw the punch out of
anger because Michael Bisping got under his skin, And if
those two were friendly, I would have been less offended
by the punch. Some people justified it going I'll just
being deserted because he was such a loud mouth jerk.
So to me, this is evidence that that kind of

(27:10):
thing needs to stop. That fighters need to win and
go for the win, but when they have that win
and it's clear, they need to have in the back
of their mind that there's ramifications that they throw an
extra punch or two when it's clear they've won. And
so that's the kind of thing where I think maybe
I think that's I think that's where maybe we can
make some progress in USC. Let's at least start there.

(27:30):
To me, that's kind of the quotal one of skiff
chair shots to the head in in pro wrestling. Let's
start with no more punches when the guy's clearly knocked
out on the mat and work our way from there
towards more safety measures. Chris, thanks for call any follow
up to what we had to say. If you're still there,
I mean.

Speaker 7 (27:46):
Yeah, I'm still here. I had a bunch, but it's
hard to keep sawing because you guys bring up so
many points. So I just quickly I'll just say this.
I think first, this is just my personal opinion and
nothing more. And I think it's completely illogical to make
an argument that in a stimulated sport and a fake sport,
that there's any need whatsoever to have a chair shot

(28:10):
or anything of that matter.

Speaker 1 (28:12):
To this ball.

Speaker 7 (28:13):
It doesn't make any sense if you can. You guys
talk about it all the time. And I'm not arguing
because you guys are mean really largely agree, but I
just want to hammer that point home. Even if it's
I'm not a doctor, but even if it's just you know,
putting the hands up or whatever. You know, we all
know the gigs, all right, This isn't like, this isn't usual,

(28:33):
episany that wrestling is a stimulated twice and I just
don't see the need in order to tell a story,
uh to have.

Speaker 1 (28:41):
Hunt effective chair shots.

Speaker 7 (28:43):
And the second point I want to make is I'm
not on a pedestal at all. And I was interested
to get your input because you know, you do cover
wrestling and choose a lot of USC analogies and I know, uh,
there's the USC site. You know, I'm a huge ones
up man, and uh, you know, I'm not gonna sit

(29:04):
here in tent. And even though there's some information about
head trauma is new and it's break it is a
break group and I agree if you don't read about
it online and it is some some very hard hitting
sum You know, I don't feel guilty watching the NFL.

Speaker 3 (29:18):
I don't.

Speaker 7 (29:18):
And I also am not as talous to say, well,
you know what you sign up for. But I think
it's a very great area.

Speaker 1 (29:26):
And I think that's well because you know, I played football.

Speaker 7 (29:30):
I love it for I've coached youth football. I mean,
it's just such a great four. And I mean, if
a guy gets a cantcusion, I'm not gonna all of
a sudden stop while watching. It's a very touchy subject.
I just wanted to really just see it get some
some more airtimes selfishly.

Speaker 1 (29:49):
Sure, No, Chris, I appreciate the call, and I appreciate
the question and bringing up the topic. I think it
does deserve time, and I think the more that people
do talk about it that the effect collectively or the internets,
for publications through radio shows like this, If it's on
the if it seems like it's something fans are talking about,
it does work its way to the people who can

(30:11):
make a difference. It works its way to the wrestlers
who listen to the show and they think about it
more and maybe they make some changes in the types
of bumps that they take or the types of ways
that they orchestrate a match. And you know, Jason, I
think Chris is a good point. There's many ways to
tell the story inside the ring, and that's what I've
set me about. Eric Bischoff's comment is, is it seemed
like a non wrestler perspective, someone who isn't working one

(30:32):
hundred and fifty or two hundred matches a year for ten, twelve,
fifteen years to say, well, where do you draw the line?
You drop? There's so many ways to tell a really
good story in the ring, and wrestling promoters have more
power than even UFC promoters do to dictate how a
certain move that doesn't actually hurt your opponent in the
short run or long run. How that is sold, How

(30:53):
that's part of a story. There's some of the greatest
matches I've seen didn't involve a lot of body trauma
to the people involved in it. And I think it
was a bad trend in the nineties. I think in
part it was reaction to UFC and an inferiority complex
or a chip on the shoulder about it. And there's
ways to tell stories, and I mean even a little blood.
Ironically in WWE, where they won't do that, having some

(31:15):
blood is one of the most innocuous ways to convey
violence where the long term ramifications are you might have
a little scar tissue. You know. It's sad that in
a PG environment people are allowed to take these huge
bumps off the ropes and dive over the ring and
maybe land awkwardly on their head, but they're not allowed
to cut themselves a little bit to add some blood
to the mix. And I don't know it is. It's

(31:37):
a great area and we're all kind of thinking it
through right now. But I think this new information the
last several months this year really should make wrestlers and
promoters think a little harder about drawing the line in
a different place than they previously previously thought was necessary.
Thanks for downloading today's show. Take it to the next
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(31:59):
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Speaker 3 (32:30):
Vip, I find it. I think it's very telling that
Paul Hayman, a guy who's launched ECW, at least owned
ECW for a good stretch of time, and really that's where,
at least in this country, we started seeing more and
more share shots to the head and he's told me
in conversations and I'm guessing He's put it out there
publicly too, knowing what he knows now that would never

(32:53):
happen again on his watch period. And I mean that
just really says it all to me. And I can't
believe is this callous about it and PNA. And I'm
not going to blame it all on Eric Bischoff because
the buck stops with Dixie Carter and I you know,
as I said, I'm not gonna feel guilty as an
NFL or UFC fans as long as I feel like
they're taking steps in the right direction. But I do

(33:15):
feel guilty watching TNA. When I'm watching Rob Bam Damn
throw chairs at a business head. It just bothers me
and it makes me want to turn the channel.

Speaker 1 (33:23):
Yeah, and you know, it does seem like they've thought, well,
as long as the chair is not in my hand
swinging at someone, it doesn't count. And frankly, I'd rather
have someone throw a chair at my head from eight
or ten feet away than swing it at me while
holding it. I mean, pure physics, pure physics, The impacts
much greater someone's holding onto a baseball bat when they
swing it at me versus just throwing it at me. Well,

(33:43):
you know, you got wind resistance and and you know
all that kind of stuff that factors in, so I
don't have as much of a roun with it, but
I still look at that going it's a it's a
half a step down from the old way you did it,
and it just makes you look kind of dumb for
not holding on too and swinging it at him. You know,
It's just I think, if you're gonna hit someone with
a chair, do it with the hands up in the

(34:06):
air protecting you, and then sell it. And that's enough.
That's all fans need. Fans know it's not real. You're
not trying to prove to them it's real. It's nothing exposed.
No chair shot is going to fix the fact that
there hasn't there yet to be a headlock or chinlock
applied in UFC like it's applied in the middle of
ww matches all the time. Nothing's gonna make in a

(34:27):
fake looking armbar and pro wrestling look real based on
how many chairs chairs you take to the head earlier
in the match. Fans are willing to play along. Just
give them a story that looks good, the same way
cars driving on the street in a in a in
a born movie end up end up totally unrealistic. There's
no way that car when crashed into something. There's no
way he would have avoided the cars at dinner. But

(34:48):
people are willing for a good chase scene to suspend
their disbelief. So I just want. I just want the industry,
the progressing industry, and Eric Bischoff is one of the
leaders to get that there's really, really, really safe ways
to tell a story, whether having to somehow prove your
manhood or how tough you are, and the whole bummer.
Ray Dudley, I'll take a chift share shot. You give one,
I'll take one, and that proves that I'm not a

(35:08):
terribly out of shape that guy who would win a
real fight in a bar fight because I take cheer
shots to that. You know, whatever the mentality is with
a lot of these guys, just drop it and tell
us a good story and stay safe, you know, be creative,
be smart about it, and stay safe. All right, I'm
ready to move on. Let's go back to the phone
lines the number six four six ninety two eight. If

(35:29):
you want to join us here on the PW Torch
live cast, I'm WAYD. Keller joined today by Jason Powell
of Pro Wrestling dot Net. We're halfway through the show.
We're talking about anything you want to talk about Monday
Night Raw. Helena cell Tna Impact. Join us here on
the show with your question or comment. We've also got
the chatroom open and we welcome you to join the
conversation in that chatroom and respond to what's going on

(35:51):
here on today's show. Let's go to the next caller,
area code four to one zero. Thanks for calling. Please
stace your name and where you're from.

Speaker 6 (36:00):
Hey, it's Jose from Baltimore.

Speaker 1 (36:01):
Hey, Jose, what's on your mind today?

Speaker 6 (36:04):
How ridiculous was the segment the GM interview segment.

Speaker 1 (36:09):
With Edge Terrible Guy, horny Stupid?

Speaker 6 (36:12):
I thought it was. I thought it was probably one
of the worst things that I've seen them do in
recent years. And I'm talking about like probably like since
you know the two thousands that even happened. It was terrible.
I think that that probably killed any anticipation of who
the GM is.

Speaker 1 (36:34):
Yeah, I think I agree with you. I mean, I
think it was one of those really, really really awful
segments that somebody that to me is revealing of a
weird mindset in behind the scenes in WWE that shows
they really don't get the tone that. I think that.
I really think wrestling fans look for a tone different
than that. I thought the worst part was when the

(36:54):
GM acted like he was getting hurt he or she
was getting hurt when the laptop landed on the ground
and edged its fanking. It's oh no, you know, like
like he was feeling pain from being being hit. I mean,
everything was dumb about it, but that was far and
away the low point. I thought it was pretty telling
that Edge said we've gone from stone cold giving a
stunner to mister McMahon to me talking to a laptop

(37:17):
computer GM and And I don't know that they should
have even said that, because I think that's what a
lot of people were thinking, and a lot of people go, well,
if you realize what a drop off WWE has undergone,
if you prepare those two things, why draw attention to
it or why even allow this on the air in
the first place. It was almost like you lot that
in there to say It was almost like Edge slipped

(37:37):
that in there to say, I'm not in favor of
this either, but I'm not sure what's that?

Speaker 6 (37:43):
Yeah, No, I think so, I think that's what he
was trying to do. I think that he was just
trying to draw, you know, draw a light to it
and hear it. But I think it's going to backfire.
Is a long run at this point, Does it matter
who it is?

Speaker 1 (37:57):
Yeah, yeah, I don't think one dumb skit can totally
room and you know, whatever the payoff is to where
they go with the GM angle, I mean, it was
a bad moment in Raw, one of the worst moments
of the year. They've had some candidates. We should probably
do a poll on that to try to get some
nominations for worst moment on Raw of the year, but
that was one of them. Jason, your thoughts on that?

Speaker 3 (38:18):
For me, it all started with the voice they selected.
Go back and watch any terrorist show like twenty four,
any horror movie like Scream, and the voice sounds at
least somewhat menacing at least and you take it seriously,
this was like a chipmunk voice. What the hell are
they thinking? They just made their big angle the summer
into all out comedy. It was just really can't be

(38:40):
really corny, And I just was stunned by the voice
that they selected for this, you.

Speaker 1 (38:44):
Know, and I don't. I'm not sure that there's a voice.
I mean, I agree with you, Jason, it was a
bad voice, but I don't know that there's a voice
they could have selected that would have saved it given
everything that they did either. You know, I get that
they're saying, well, the GM needs to disguise or her
voice or it would change everything. And we don't know
why that is. And they'd better be a good payoff
because if there isn't. The thing that WWE's flippant about

(39:05):
and cavalier about and they should be, is the fact
that people are invested in this. People want to invest
emotionally in what goes on on their TV shows more
than I think they care to believe, and they want
payoffs that make sense in retrospect. It's one of the
things that I wrote in my editorial last week about
you know what our rules that wrestling promoter should follow,

(39:25):
and one of them is don't do anything on that
TV show that in retrospect won't make sense. When you're
doing a mystery and I am worried about it, Where
do you stan, Jason on where this might be going?
You know, the mystery GM. Do you think it's do
you think they've known from the start. Do you have
any other ideas of who it might end up being.

Speaker 3 (39:44):
No, that's I think one of the main factors in
the ratings dropping. In addition to obviously that the competition
that they're facing right now from the networks in Monday
Night Football, is that there's no light at the end
of the tunnel for the general Manager anonymous General Manager
program or the Nexus you know Nexus that I think
interest was at his peak when people felt like they

(40:05):
might actually get a reveal in the near future, and
now I think people are like, well, you know, I'll
start paying attention again when you let me know there's
some light at the end of the tunnel. With Nexus,
it was all about this grand plan and okay, well
here we are months later and they barely even bring
it up and it's just like they're another faction and
there doesn't seem to be any grand plan whatsoever.

Speaker 1 (40:25):
Yeah, I agree with you. I mean I wrote in
my Keller's take after Role last night, what I think
they could do to spark ross ratings. We're waiting for
ratings to come in to see, you know, where do
they end up number wise? Because I wouldn't be shocked
if they're under three point zer again, I wouldn't be
shocked I they're above three point oh again. But I

(40:45):
think the fact that we can sit here and talk
about possibly two weeks in a row of a rating
in the you know, two six to two nine range.
Last week it averaged out barely to a two point eight.
That's that's dangerous territory. And I could see them panicking
because you was the network starts putting pressure on them
to raise their average. Raw's on a prestigious network like
USA Network, not because USA is excited to have pro

(41:07):
wrestling on their network. It's because Raw helps make them
the number one cable network. If ROS stops helping make
them number one, they'll find a movie to put on
on Monday Night, or some original series that's more high brow.
It'd be the same thing that happened to WW. Yeah,
your ratings are good, but it doesn't fit with the
image of TNT. So we're going to cancel Nitro. Even
though it's one of the high rated shows. We can't
sell it real easily, and you know, and so they're

(41:32):
at risk. You know, they're at risk of Robbie in
a sci fi show, in a couple of years if
they don't fix this, and I'm thinking, you know, one
of the things that they might do is go back
to what is familiar to them, and that is get
the McMahon's back on the air. And they're not going
to do it until after the election. Linda's made this
a close race with Blumenthal to the surprise of many.
But I could see after the election that the gm

(41:52):
is revealed to be Stephanie McMahon and that she interpl
h try to take over the company, and they turn
Vincent Man into a sympathetic babyface figure who is battling
them and having to rally the wrestlers who once were
trying to that he was trying to that he was
feuding with, and he has to try to get them
on his side to battle this newly formed powerful group

(42:12):
led by Stephanie, the daughter turned evil and a newly
he'll turn triple H. I could see them going somewhere
in that direction, trying to interject the McMahons in there
to try to get ratings up, and there is a
tract record you know when the mcmhon's are involved, not always,
but usually that's when Vince gets energized about the product.
Usually he puts himself on the show when he's more
excited about the product, and it could lead to a

(42:33):
ratings resurgeon. So I think that's one of the possible
directions this goes.

Speaker 3 (42:37):
I see that as a very short term ratings resurgence,
and I think ultimately it's going to turn off more people,
and it's gonna turn on just because we've been down
that road with the you know, the power couple of
Triple Ah Stephanie and it's just never clicked and it's
gonna feel like sush a throwback angle. I get what
you're saying that I could easily see them taking that
approach because of their past ratings success. But oh man,

(42:58):
I really hope that's not what happened much. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (43:01):
Yeah, I'm Chris Maitland.

Speaker 10 (43:05):
I'm Justin McClellan.

Speaker 2 (43:06):
We host Wrestling Coast to Coast, a podcast on independent wrestling.

Speaker 10 (43:10):
Every week, Chris and I review a different show or
talk about important topics from around the indie wrestling world.

Speaker 2 (43:15):
Learn about the hot underground stars and the future main eventors.
For anyone else. You can reach us at Torchcoast to
Coast at gmail dot com and me on Blue Sky
at Mind of Maitland.

Speaker 10 (43:25):
You can reach me at Blue Sky at Justin McClelland.

Speaker 2 (43:28):
Find the show on your PW torch dailycast, podcast feed,
search PW torch on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you
listen to podcasts.

Speaker 10 (43:36):
Also stream the latest shows on pwtorch dot com.

Speaker 1 (43:42):
We Our question of Theday on pw torch dot com
is what would you do to change Raw to spark
the ratings? Is there anything that you think they could
do short term or even better commit long term that
might turn things around again, assuming the ratings come in
and they should be in any hour now or any
minute now. If they come in and it shows that

(44:02):
there's a real downward trend of interest compared to Monday
Night Football this year, compared to last.

Speaker 3 (44:06):
Year's, boy, I tell you what if if if my
forum last night is any indication that rating is going
to be down? And you know, I think a well,
obviously a lot of net fans check out spoilers, but
usually we get just a ton of people in there
and you know, talking all through Raw and not last night.

Speaker 6 (44:22):
Boy.

Speaker 3 (44:22):
If we have people just chose to watch other things
or do other things.

Speaker 1 (44:26):
Yeah, yeah, well, my editorial is up, so if you
if you're listening to this and haven't read my Keller's
take on it yet, it's featured on the sidebar on
the main page of pw torch dot com. Seven ideas
on how to spark raw ratings. One of them is
the Stephanie idea. It was my last idea, not my favorite,
but I do think that it's It's one of those
things where they could push the panic button and do that.

(44:47):
Every time I missed Stephanie at all as a character,
she comes back on and within two minutes I wanted
to go away. So no, I'm not endorsing that, but
I think that's something they might do. But the other,
you know, most of the other six ideas I think
I think would be worthy of considering for them. I
think one of the things, and somebody even said it
in the chat room during the show today. WWE seems
to be on autopilot with their booking. You know they're

(45:09):
putting in They've inserted Randy Orton and Seamus in the
in the show ending angle last night in a situation
that it's well done. It's booking one oh one. It
makes sense what they did, but I don't know that
Randy Orton is over enough as a babyface, or Shamous
is over enough as a heel to do booking one
O one, to do the same thing that you did
with The Rock when he was over, or Triple Ah
and John Cena when they were both at their peaks,

(45:30):
or whatever. I just think fans sens there's a transition
going on, and everything just feels a little too familiar
and well fundamentally solid, a little too canned or as
the chatroom person said, autopilot or paint by numbers. Do
you get that feeling too that they know what they're doing,
but what they've always done that's worked may not be

(45:52):
enough right now?

Speaker 6 (45:53):
Oh?

Speaker 3 (45:53):
Absolutely, yeah. Yeah. It's just I mean that in the
angle you mentioned Orton and Shamus, why would I pay
more to watch them fight in Helena sell? When Orton
just gets the better of him time and time again.
It puts some heat on the heel, for God's sake,
and what they did last night just wasn't enough to
sell that. It doesn't Going back to what you said
about Helena, Cell shouldn't be a pay per view, you know,

(46:16):
I based on the numbers that they did for those
gimmick pay per views late last year. I can't blame
them for sticking with it, but it really there's something
missing now when it's everybody knows, hey, it's helling a
cell time, as opposed to all right here, you know,
we're at that point and here's the big announcement and
the heel freaks out because he's got to go in
hell and to sell. It really does take some of

(46:37):
the magic away from that match, and this just feels
like another pay per view now.

Speaker 1 (46:43):
All right, well, let's go back to the phone lines
and pick up the next caller here, Eric code one
one one, you're on the live test. Thanks for calling.
Please state your name and where you're from. Hello, one
one one Jason, can you hear me?

Speaker 3 (46:57):
I can hear you?

Speaker 1 (46:58):
Okay, good, all right, one one one. You can try back.
I'm not sure what it's up there. The number to
reach us, by the way, is six four six seven
nine two eight. We've only got one other caller in line,
so if you want to be second and third in line,
go ahead and call right now. We've got plenty of
time left on the show to get to your call.
Eric codes seven to seven five, Thanks for calling. Please
state your name and where you're from.

Speaker 11 (47:18):
Hi.

Speaker 8 (47:18):
This is Clarissa from Lena, Nevada.

Speaker 1 (47:21):
Hi Clarissa, thanks for calling. What's on your mind today?

Speaker 8 (47:23):
Thanks for taking I wanted to discuss the submissions match
this Saturday or this Sunday. One of the things that
really attracts me to Daniel Ryan is the wrestler is
all of the submission moves. But do you think there's
any chance that we'll get to see stuff like cattle
mutilation or shurf blodge on Sunday or is it just
going to be a lead up to the Lovell Locke Jason?

Speaker 1 (47:43):
What do you think? I mean, WWE's kind of had
a policy of limiting the number of you know, raymus
Teriro can do way more moves than they want him
to do, because it's kind of you look at the
Motor City machine Guns, for instance, they do a couple
dozen signature moves, but none of not none of them,
but the key ones don't stand out as much because
they do so many, And maybe to a fault on

(48:04):
the other side, I think WWE, maybe to a fault,
limits the number of signature moves that anybody does because
they really want the lowest comedy nominator faner the masses
to know what the two three four key moves are
for a wrestler. I think with Danielson he's a man
of a thousand and one holds, but I don't, you know,
more so than de Malenko was. But I'm not sure
ww's gonna let him unveil a ton of them because

(48:26):
they do like that focus. So my thinking is we're
gonna see some new ones because it is a submission match,
but I don't think it's gonna be the same variety
that you would see with Daniel Brian Danielson in Ring
of Honor during his hot run there.

Speaker 3 (48:39):
Right, and especially with the being a a three way two,
I just don't think you're gonna see. You'll probably see
some quick submission holds and broken up quickly, and it
just seems really awkward to me. Does John Morrison even
have a finisher wage a submission finisher?

Speaker 1 (48:54):
I don't think so. I mean, he's got the flip
twisting dive off the top rope, so I'm not sure. Yeah,
it's kind of weird to put him in a submission
match for a guy without a signature submission hole less.
I'm forgetting the one. Yeah, well, I would.

Speaker 3 (49:09):
Really like to see him break out cattle mutilation at
some point. If you're gonna have Daniel Bryan be the
guy that caters to the Internet fans, will then do
something that those Internet fans are going to appreciate. And
I think this is a perfect place to do it.
On pay per view. You don't have to make a
big fuss over and on television, but you can reward
the people to tune in.

Speaker 1 (49:24):
And I think part of the push of Daniel Brian
isn't just to appeal to Internet fans, because I think
they know the Internet fans are probably gonna watch I
think sometimes they take them for granted, and they shouldn't,
you know. And sometimes they think, well, the internets are
so we do it. They're gonna watch it no matter what.
We'll just throw them on TV. But we'll make fun
of them and you know, have our fun sport wise
like that. But I don't know that you can take
for granted the quote internet fan, whatever that means, because

(49:46):
as far as I know, probably every member of the
Row viewing audience has been on the Internet in the
last few days, and I'd say a lot of them
read wrestling stories and one form or another a lot
more than ten years ago, So you know, I don't
think they can peg them. But I think what they
mean as independent wrestling fans, fans who seek out footage
from the smaller promotions or read you know, site for

(50:07):
hardcore fans like prosing Torch orprosling dot Net. Then I
think it's a smaller audience. But don't take for them
for granted either. But I think part of what the
marketing idea, perhaps by pushing Daniel Brian as the Internet darling,
is to bring is to have the casual fans think
he must he's something sort of special and different, because
he was known about even before I knew about him.

(50:28):
And I think there's a weird strategy that they haven't
quite reconciled on their mind how to pull it off.
But I think they're trying to push him as kind
of this independent superstar who's now playing with the big
boys Kenny Survive, and they're actually playing to non Internet
fans by building that up as his reputation. Clarisa, anything
else you want to add to your to your call here, Well,

(50:48):
I wanted.

Speaker 8 (50:48):
To add that it is quite annoying to me when
wrestlers come in from different promotions to the WW and
suddenly their repertoires are completely flashed and has you know,
that's one finishing, one submission to transitional moves or whatever
else to add up to you know, five moves him
And I think that will the most common denominator is
probably accurately what the reasoning is behind that. I think

(51:10):
they're really underestimate made their fans who are so dedicated.
I think they can tick up a few more moves.

Speaker 1 (51:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 8 (51:16):
And also is it just my imagination or did John
Morrison have a torture acts.

Speaker 1 (51:21):
Does he have a torture back.

Speaker 8 (51:24):
In the pastor maybe I'm just imagining.

Speaker 1 (51:25):
Something as like a Lex Luger finisher.

Speaker 8 (51:30):
Yeah, something that could sort of more tie into submission match.

Speaker 1 (51:35):
I don't I don't remember. I mean, I could be
totally blank submission somewhere. Yeah, I mean he probably does,
and none of us are thinking of it, But it's
not something I'm looking at the chat room and I
don't think anybody put it this way.

Speaker 3 (51:47):
I don't remember him using it successfully in the match
if he has, you know, if he does.

Speaker 1 (51:51):
Use it, yeah, Yeah, it's not a thing that you're
thinking what Jason, just a quick sidebar before we go
to the next caller, what what do you think is
missing with John Morris? And he clearly brings the massets
to the table, but there's still there's something missing about
him that just doesn't take him to that point that
I think a lot of people think he should be
at by now, what is wrong with him?

Speaker 3 (52:12):
He's quirky, His sense of humor is just odd, and
I don't think it is going to appeal to the masses.
And when he was on n XT, I was really
hopeful that we'd see the real John Morrison, and unfortunately,
I think we did see the real John Morrison. It's
not what I was hoping for. There's just something about
his sense of humor. You know, I get a kick

(52:33):
out of things like Starship Pain and the Chuck Kick
and stuff like that, but I don't think that type
of stuff appeals to the masses. Maybe those aren't great examples.
But and then you watch him run around backstage climbing
on things, and you know, I've seen some fun movies
where that stuff looks pretty cool, but it doesn't. It
just kind of looks dorky when he does it. There's

(52:55):
just a dorky quality about this guy that looks like
a million bucks and in a lot of ways, you know,
is a very good performer in the ring, but there's
just something about his personality that just hasn't clicked.

Speaker 1 (53:08):
Anytime you're watching WWE Raw or SmackDown or AEW Dynamite
in particular, send us an email if you've got thoughts
on the show or a topic you want us to
address or a question for us. Wade Keller Podcast at
pwtorch dot com. Wadkeller Podcast at pewtorch dot com. If
there's anything else going on in pro wrestling that you
want us to address on our main podcast during our

(53:30):
mailbank segments, that same email applies Wade Keller Podcast at
pwtorch dot com. We invite that interaction. Let us know
what you think of what we're saying, and let us
know what you want us to talk about and ask
us specific questions. Wade Keller Podcast at pw torch dot com. Yeah,
I'm with you, and the fact that you can kind
of talk so long in circles about it, I think

(53:51):
is the same frustration everybody has when they talk about
him in WWE and outside of it. You think, well,
it's this and he kind of you're trying to find
the words to put to him. He should be a
bigger star than he is. There's a lot going for him.
But yeah, it almost he's always kind of got like
a private joke going on in his mind that has
that little grin on his face, that's undercurrent of a
joke that that works for him and a couple of

(54:12):
his friends, but it doesn't resonate with the masses, and
it is hard to put a finger on it. And
WWE doesn't want to give up on him, but they
haven't figured out yet how to how to channel who
he is. And and I almost want to go back
and watch Tough enough to see you know, who was
he back? You know that many years ago as a person,

(54:33):
And is there something there to tap into that hasn't
that that that isn't has been changed by all these
gimmicks being layered on top of him with a whole
Morrison thing and reacting to Mis with those gimmicks and
stuff like that. But Mis has certainly pulled a head
in the Mis versus Morrison race in terms of who's
going to be a world champion contender or WrestleMania main eventor.

Speaker 3 (54:52):
I think, and Morrison is a better natural heel, and
I think one thing that's lacking from him is well,
I guess both baby Face and Heel is that he
just doesn't seem to have a main streak about him.
Everything's fun games.

Speaker 1 (55:03):
Yes, that's actually a really good point. He doesn't seem
like somebody who is fighting to defend you know, somebody
he cares about you know, like you just there's times
where a wrestling match, you're you're putting something on the line.
When you're in a wrestling match, you're put you're you're
fighting for something, you're defending yourself. If someone hits you,
it should get you angry. And it just seems like
it's it's performance art for him, and in that the

(55:25):
emotions just aren't real, genuine. So anyway, all right, let's
go to the next caller, Eric code four A zero
things for calling. Please state your name and where you're from.
Good efferent, good hear from you. What's on your mind today?

Speaker 6 (55:38):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (55:40):
So SmackDown's in Oklahoma City this week, and uh, do
you see any chance of Jim Ross coming back in
one form or another this stan.

Speaker 1 (55:51):
It was one of my seven ideas that WWE may
go with if ratings go down, I could see there
maybe being them swallowing their right and bringing him back
to Raw if ratings are bad enough. I don't think
they would debut him as an announcer and SmackDown, but
the location is pretty convenient. Would they bring him back

(56:12):
for an angle or to say hi, or to sit
in for one week? No, because I think it would
just point out to people how how much announcing has
gone down hill since he was gone, you know, and
I mean Todd Grisham may have a defense, which is well,
I'd be a better announcer, But every time I try
to go off on my own and improved and sc
manh yells at me and tells me, you know, to
be to be this, you know this, this kind of
dumb down, non thinking, you know, half half distracted wrestling announcer.

(56:37):
I don't know. I don't buy that. I think Grisham
should be better than he is and more more invested
than he has. But Jim Ross, if he was on
Raw last night, would have done a better job selling,
selling the pay per view and selling the key matches.
And the fact is this, Michael Cole isn't even trying
to be a straight up wrestling announcer who sells the
product anymore. He's become a character and it's distracting and

(56:58):
it might make the job more fun for him, and
and that's great, but I'm just not sure that it's
good for selling the product to have your lead announcer
be somebody who goes off on these rants against babyfaces.
It's just it's weird. So, I mean, obviously, if I
had my wish, I would move him. I would move
Michael Cole to some other role in the company as
some weevish heel obnoxious manager and get Jim Ross back

(57:23):
hosting Raw. So anyway, that's kind of my winding thoughts
on Ross. I mean, Ross doesn't sound like he's eager
to get back on the road every week, but all
things being equal, I think he loves the the adrenaline
rush of the live show every week, and if that
offer was made, it would be really tempting. Jason your
thoughts on that subject.

Speaker 6 (57:39):
Boy?

Speaker 3 (57:40):
You know, last time they moved to my network TV
from CW or whatever it was at the time, that's
when Jim Ross made the move from Raw over to SmackDown.
So I think it's a long shot, but there's some
reason to be hopeful, I think, And we'll probably all
have our hopes crushed again come Friday night. But you know,

(58:00):
I mean, gosh, if we know Vince McMahon is not
a fan of Todd Grisham's work, and nor should he be.
And I mean, he's the guy who's always left out
of the pay per views and he goes back and
interviews people backstage, and I don't think it's there's any
real push that Todd Grisham's going to replace Michael cole
As is the wrong guy. So if he's not happy

(58:21):
with Todd Grisham, maybe, you know, and if nothing else,
if they're smart, they'll they'll get him in for an
appearance on the show. At the very least.

Speaker 1 (58:30):
I just think Jim Ross being on SmackDown every week
on Sci Fi and let's say they shook up the
announced teams and and and you know, rearrange some things
and got Lawler back with Ross. I just think it
would add a real ara of aura of importance to SmackDown,
to have Ross and Lawler calling it. I think the
better option is ros's a show. USA Network is a
very valuable partner for Raw. It's a prestigious partner to

(58:51):
be with. They get advertisers they might not get otherwise
because they're on a high BROP cable network. I'd say
get get Ross, Lawler and Cole as an announced team
and have Cole be kind of a a heelish, a pest,
you know, announcer, and have Ross be the straight play
by play guy, and have Lawler kind of be the
one who lowers himself to fight and battle Michael Cole.

(59:12):
And then but then what do you do on SmackDown?
I mean I would I guess I would choose Josh
Matthews over Todd Grisham to be there. And I don't know,
I've said it before, I don't I don't enjoy spending
two hours with Matt Striker every weekend either.

Speaker 3 (59:24):
So yeah, well not a great spot, no, And I
would say move Ross to Raw with Lawler, and then
I personally would have been a little more interest in
watching a pre tape show with some can't beat Michael
Cole commentary. But I don't think I could put up
with Michael Cole and Match Striker in the same broadcast
booth weekend and week out.

Speaker 1 (59:43):
I know that is a problem. I think I could
handle Michael Cole. I think I could handle Michael Cole
being a going back to just being a good announcer,
you know, and have him go back on SmackDown and
just be a good straight up announcer. So I don't
quite understand the current arrangements. It just doesn't. It just

(01:00:03):
seems like a bad combination. And Ross's under contract and
I'm not good any go ahead, go ahead, ef.

Speaker 5 (01:00:10):
You couldn't make any You couldn't make any of this
work though, without him going back on the travel schedule.
Even if you were through the whole well, you know,
once a month paid for view things, it would be
like you'd be a little left out for like the
first few matters, trying to catch up and just not
beam their week after week.

Speaker 4 (01:00:26):
Right.

Speaker 5 (01:00:26):
Is there any way he does it without the travel schedule?

Speaker 6 (01:00:28):
Nah?

Speaker 1 (01:00:29):
I mean I don't think it. I mean, I guess
you if if if WWE wanted to make pay per
views really seem special again, and and that's a whole
other issue. I talked about that with Bruce Mitchell on
yesterday show. You know, they could cut down go to
every two months or only you know, four or six
per year, and and say we need to rehab the
pay per view brand and and make them seem special again.

(01:00:50):
We overdid it and and maybe one way to do
that would be add Jim Ross to the announced team
on pay per views. But do you really want to
send the message that your a announcer doesn't appear on
Rah SmackDown every week?

Speaker 11 (01:01:01):
You know?

Speaker 1 (01:01:01):
And do you want Ross showing how much better he
is than them?

Speaker 6 (01:01:04):
You know?

Speaker 1 (01:01:04):
I mean it's you know, how many how many wives
want a supermodel to just be hanging out in the
bedroom with her husband, you know. I mean it's just like,
do you really want to pale in comparison to somebody
sitting right next to you? And I think there's a
reason to believe that that that would happen with Michael
Cole and Todd Grisham. So I don't know, it's tough.
It's not a great situation. Somebody's pushing for Joey Styles

(01:01:26):
to be brought back. I mean, Joey'd probably be better
than Todd Grisham. I don't know if Joey's made for
the WDWE product though, you know, I mean people look
a look back at him fondly for calling the originally
c W, But I don't know that he was that
great on the remade ECW and being a vincent man robot.

Speaker 3 (01:01:43):
No, he just he became like a golf announcer. He
was afraid to say anything, and he was just everything
was very you know, he'd never raised his voice anymore.
It was just very mellow and just very afraid because
he had Vince yelling at him through the headset, showing
off for his buddy's backstage like he always does.

Speaker 1 (01:01:58):
Yeah for anything else before let you go, Just a
real quick.

Speaker 5 (01:02:03):
Number to throw at you. With Dragging Rights coming up
next month, and when we talk about carry pree by
last for Yesterday too Much removed from WrestleMania Over the
Limit did only one hundred and twenty five thousand buys,
so I can only imagine what Bragging Rights does next month.

Speaker 1 (01:02:17):
And didn't it do lesson thank you? Thanks Ever, No,
I think it did less than one hundred thousand domestically
in the United States, which was the first time that
has happened in forever. So I mean on all fronts,
real real scary numbers. Definitely scary numbers.

Speaker 12 (01:02:35):
Are you a nostalgic wrestling fan? Do you want to
hear about shows you haven't seen in ten, twenty, maybe
even thirty years. Well, I have the show for you.
I'm pwsorts dot com contributor Frank petty Ani, and since
December of twenty twenty, I've hosted Pro Wrestling Then and Now.
Together with a rotating chair of co hosts. We go
back and review old shows from top to bottom, talk

(01:02:56):
about where the wrestlers were at the time, and compare
what's taking place now to what took place. Then you
can hear this so along with other shows as part
of your pw' shorts VIP membership with exclusive podcasts just
for members compatible with the Apple Podcasts app visitpwsworts dot
com slash go vip for details and.

Speaker 6 (01:03:15):
Sign up form.

Speaker 1 (01:03:21):
All right, if you want to join us here in
the final a couple of minutes the show, we may
have time for you the number six four, six, seven eight.
We've got Erico nine one eight on hold, We'll go
to you in just a moment. Jason, I want to
be sure we fit in a quick plug for your
website and your membership site.

Speaker 6 (01:03:34):
Go for it.

Speaker 3 (01:03:35):
Absolutely. If tons of audio available over at Pro Wrestling
dott membership site. You can access that on the main
page of Pro Wrestling dot Net. The sign up area
five dollars and fifty cents per month if you take
the annual option. Tons of interviews the first look at
dot net news today, I've got a quote from Court
Bauer who is very critical of the way WWE handled
the MSG show over the weekend. Pretty interesting read there,

(01:03:57):
as he had an idea for a way they could
have really came apitalize on that particular show, and I
agree with them. So again, it's just five to fifty month.
Head over to Pro Wrestling dot Net look for that
sign up area and you can gain nearly instantaneous access,
and we.

Speaker 1 (01:04:11):
Will in the VP after show Jason available for your
members and also PW Torch VAT members. We'll be talking
about the results of this week this year's PW Torch draft.
We just published four VIP members the top fifty finishers
in this year's draft. I wrote a cover story in
this week's VIP newsletter comparing the results this year to
two thousand and five and two thousand five years ago

(01:04:31):
and ten years ago, looking at who dropped off the
list and why and who is back and in that issue, Jason,
you've got your column looking at the presenting your draft
picks too, a full feature column, so we'll talk about
that in the VP after show.

Speaker 3 (01:04:48):
Sounds great to me. And by the way, let me
sneak in one more quick plug. I'm going to be
on Between the Ropes tonight at sixth Central right around there.
You can listen live at Between the Ropes dot com.

Speaker 1 (01:04:58):
Excellent and thank you for honey mean because MMA Torch
will have their live cast tonight as a whole gang
will be spending ninety minutes talking about Saturday nights UFC
pay per view, Frank mir and Miracle Crow Cop and
a solid lineup of fights underneath that have quite a
few title ramifications and career ramifications. So they'll be talking
for ninety minutes today. Just go to blog talk radio

(01:05:20):
dot com slash MMA Torch at eight o'clock tonight. That's
the MMA Torch live cast every Tuesday night, hosted by
Jennie Pennock. Let's now go to probably our final caller
of the show, Eric Code nine one eight. Please state
your name and where you're from.

Speaker 13 (01:05:37):
Yeah, hello, can you hear me?

Speaker 6 (01:05:39):
Yep?

Speaker 1 (01:05:39):
We sure kut?

Speaker 13 (01:05:41):
Hey, Hey guys, thanks for taking my call. Bob from
Oklahoma home with Jim Ross, so thought i'd call in.
First time caller, longtime listener.

Speaker 14 (01:05:52):
I don't think he's becoming night second.

Speaker 13 (01:05:55):
That was a failure the first time you went to SmackDown.
I think Ross is the every day come back and
beyond raw as far as announcing, I don't know if
that will happen, but maybe come back as the anonymous GM.

Speaker 2 (01:06:07):
Yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 14 (01:06:08):
It'd probably be a little lame, but well, must think
you're like Tony Savanni or something as a GM that.
But no, when you're talking about Michael Cole being a
HEIL manager, I thought that'd be a really cool idea.

Speaker 13 (01:06:23):
I think he could get into that. I think that'd
be very interesting. I just wanted to take any more
thoughts on that.

Speaker 1 (01:06:29):
Jason, what do you think of Michael Cole as heel manager?
Real quick in the final seconds.

Speaker 3 (01:06:32):
Here, I think it could work cause you know, obviously
he's get the ready made program with Daniel Bryant. I
just don't know the bench McMahon is ready to bring
back managers unfortunately.

Speaker 1 (01:06:41):
Yeah, I mean that's one of the things I didn't
mention that shake things up and go back to some
old things that worked anyway. Thanks everybody for joining us
VIP members and dot net members. Stay tuned the VIP
after show starts in five seconds.

Speaker 4 (01:07:01):
Thank you for using blog talk radio.

Speaker 6 (01:07:03):
Goodbye.

Speaker 1 (01:07:05):
All right, Jyson, let's go ahead and shift gears and
talk about the draft results this year. I'm not sure
if you've had a chance to look over the top
fifty list, excuse we just put it out online a
little while ago, but Randy Orton comes out on top,
followed by Cmpunk, John Cena the Miz, and Chris Jericho.

(01:07:25):
That is the top five finishers. That compares to your
top five John Cena, Randy Orton, Seamus, Cmpunk in the Miz.
Not huge differences there. Are you surprised that all with
that top five? Orton, Punk Sena, Misser, Jericho.

Speaker 3 (01:07:40):
Not tremendously surprised because of who's voting. I personally, I
just can't see putting Chris Jericho dot high in the
list right now because he's, you know, forty years old,
has other aspirations. We don't know how long he wants
to continue wrestling, And I mean I had him I
believe outside the top ten. I don't have my list handy,

(01:08:02):
but and I made sure to point out it wasn't,
you know, a slap to Jericho by any means. But
I just think, I guess depends what you're looking for.
You're looking for right now or you're looking for the future.

Speaker 1 (01:08:12):
Yeah, you know. And I did my draft, I did
my picks, and I had Jericho at number ten and
I struggled with it too. You had him at thirteen.
By the way, just looking at your list, I think
if you were to just go with a conventional WWE
formula and say, for some reason, let's say, you know,
Linna McMahon is in golfed and scandal, or there's a

(01:08:33):
you know, Vince McMann gets an epiphany and decides he's
going to become a monk or something like that. I
don't know, you know, the whole the whole landscape opens up.
What ten wrestlers, If it was just wide open and
he had a financial backer, would you go with. I
think Jerich was a good asset to have, even at
the tail ent of his career and not one hundred
percent committed. I think he's still a top fifteen, top
ten guy because he's so versatile on the microphone. He

(01:08:56):
has a really good connection with the fans. He has
what John Morrison doesn't have. He has what Frank Frankly
Randy Orton doesn't have yet, that connection with the fans
as a heel or a baby face. So I like
his value. But yeah, he's a borderline top ten guy,
you know, and I don't. I think five is too
high given his place in his age right now. But
my top my top ten started with Randy Orton, and

(01:09:17):
I had Sumo Joe at number two. I still am
high on him. I still think in an MMA era,
it makes a lot of sense to have a guy
with a different body type who just has that in factor.
Doesn't work for everybody, but he has that in factor
in fights that just brings crowd excitement level up when
he's put in a position to just beat Joe. And
I like the idea of the potential matchups with Samoa

(01:09:40):
Joe against them Punk'smojo against Randy Orton. I like Simojo
against his old California training buddy John Cena, and I
like Smojo against Miz. I like Simojo against Jack Swager,
I like Joe against Seamus. I even like Joe against
Undertaker as a possible match, Kofi Kingston, Chris Jericho, They're
all good matchups. So I just think I look at
the potential four on my top ten list, Joe wrestling

(01:10:00):
other guys, all nine guys are are a good fit,
and so I went with him at number two because
I think he also hasn't had a ton of exposure
on a national level like some of these other guys have,
so he would truly be a fresh matchup in an
industry that needs them. You had him ranked highly too
at number nine, but you had up Ye had Jacks
Wager ahead of him, for instance, and Triple H ahead

(01:10:22):
of Samo Joe. Even though Triple H might fall into
the same category as Jericho in terms of aging out
a little bit, Triple H is probably more committed to
sticking around the industry. Though your your your justification for
having Joe below them.

Speaker 3 (01:10:34):
Well, you know what, I had Undertaker and Triple Ah
six and seven, and for me, it's just these are
merchant guise safe, you know, I mean, they sell, they've
made you know, you can count on them to draw,
and the other guys are projects. And I just think
it all depends what you're looking for if you're if
you're just hell bent I'm building for the future. You're
going to go with the younger guys if you But

(01:10:56):
you know, as a put in my article, having played
years fantasy football and playing in keeper leagues and dynasty leagues,
and one of the first things I was taunt when
I entered one of those leagues is a championship today
or this season means as much as one five ten
years down the road. And so don't just go win
there and take all rookies. You know, there's always going

(01:11:18):
to be so many that wants to do that. And
sometimes he's rookies don't pan out. A lot of them
don't pan out. And so I with these guys, I
just took the proven commodities. With Jericho, I don't have
them just at the same place as Triple H and Undertaker.
I think he's a very valuable performer, but he's a
tier below those guys in terms of marketability. He's never

(01:11:39):
been the true face of the franchise.

Speaker 1 (01:11:41):
I agree with all that. I mean, I really do.
I think I think I Jericho his assets over Triple
H are that he's just he's more entertaining. You know,
you can do more with him, and so that's the
plus for him. But I didn't have Triple H in
my top ten and I got Jericho at number ten.
If I'm picking a WW formula because not because of

(01:12:02):
his massive star power, but because I think I can
do more with him and have more interesting matches. But
it is a close call. I mean, what you're saying
makes total sense. We're about to go to a commercial break.
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(01:12:24):
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Speaker 3 (01:12:47):
Yeah, the boy, the one that jumps out of me.
Next on the list is aj Styles. I've now ers
had him number six and I don't see it. I
think the guy is obviously athletically gifted, but he's just
damaged goods right now.

Speaker 4 (01:13:00):
You know.

Speaker 3 (01:13:00):
Obviously, if they move into w W, maybe things would
freshen up for him, but I don't know that they
would see AJ Styles as a main adventure in that company.
I think he'd be getting a push, you know, at
worst case scenario similar to Evan Borne, best case scenario
similar to Ray Maisterial. But I don't think that's going
to happen overnight. And so I just think the reader's
got a little two gung home about AJ Styles.

Speaker 1 (01:13:22):
You agree, I totally agree. Yeah, I think he's too
high on the list. I think Aj is a great
he can produce great matches for you, but I don't
think he has matured into a character that feels authentic,
that feels like the audience he is either going to
get really behind booing him or really behind cheering him

(01:13:42):
at a national centerpiece baby face level. Part of the
problem is as a heel, he's undersized and he's too good.
You know, fans don't want to boo a heel who's
as good athletically as he is. He's his style. You
have to dumb down what makes aj styles phenomenal in
order for him to be a heel, and so he
doesn't make a good heel for that reason. But as
a baby face, which is how I would cast him,

(01:14:04):
he's not my centerpiece babyface. I don't think personality wise
or even looks and appearance wise, he has that X
factor at the level of being a number five pick.
He's a top twenty pick, and I would want to
utilize him, but I'm not sure, you know, I think
TNA is a little infatuated with him just because he's
one of the originals and he's never been to WWE

(01:14:24):
and all that, But I don't know. I just think, yeah,
I think that they're too high on him and don't
and I think that they over that, they over they
overutilize him in TNA.

Speaker 3 (01:14:38):
And I should explain. You asked about Swagger being higher
than Samoa Joe and a couple of reasons for that.
I just think that Swagger is a is a legitimate athlete.
I don't get that feeling from as much from Joe.
Obviously he's an athlete, but Swagger, with the amateur wrestling background,
I just feel like he's more committed to this. Maybe
Joe in a different environment would be. But he's not

(01:14:59):
getting any small. He's been plagued by injuries, snagging injuries
that some people in TNA feel isn't really aren't even
real injuries. It's just because the criticism about him is
that he'll go out there or he'll he'll go to
people in TNA at house shows and go, oh, I've
heard I really should be working a tag match. They
put him in a tag match because out there and

(01:15:19):
does all the same moves he wouldn't do in a
singles match anyway. And and so to me, it's just
how motivated is he? And I just feel like you're
gonna get more long term value out of Jack Swagger
than you are Samoa Joe unless he gets motivated and
gets that weight under control.

Speaker 1 (01:15:35):
Yeah. Interesting Interesting. Else said, Hey, I'm high on Jack Swagger.
You're not gonna have to talk me into a into
being high on Jack Swager. And I had him right
after myth on my list because I went, you know,
with the conventional WWE formula, I went orton Joe, punk Sena, Mizwager, Seamouth, Undertaker, Kofi,
and Jericho. So I still am high on on on

(01:15:56):
Jack Swager. He's got good size, He's got a dynamic, dynamic,
interesting personality. I think he can connect with the fans
of the heel right now and in the long run
connect as a babyface. Meanwhile, Kofi Kingston finished really low
in the top fifty, lower than I anticipated. He ended
up in position where is he here? He's so low

(01:16:17):
forty five out of fifty. You know, I asked people
in the VIP forum to guess what the top ten
would be. You know, we had obviously open ballots for
everybody and we compiled them, but I asked some readers,
who do you think will be the top ten? Based
on trying to know torch readers? And KOFE was in
the top ten list of some of the guesses, and
I thought, and I would have predicted it. Two. It

(01:16:39):
seems like collectively he's off the radar right now. Is
that because he's on SmackDown? Is that because he hasn't
gotten a huge push? Is that because I don't know?
What do you think might have caused restling fans to
go cold on him?

Speaker 3 (01:16:52):
I think that those are two factors. I think also
he's yet to really cut a dynamic promo. There's certainly
a lot of upside with Cope, but I think he's unproven.
They really haven't gotten behind him and stayed behind him.
He's had little spurts here and there, but then you know,
he's also I think, got that reputation for hurting people
in the ring a little bit, and that's set him

(01:17:13):
back in the eyes of management. And he just hasn't
been really given that true showcase program yet. He's had
showcase moments, but not a real showcase program.

Speaker 1 (01:17:22):
It isn't it's it's I like the draft, as imperfect
as it is, and you know, as much as fantasy football,
there's you know, ways to keep scoring that type of thing,
and this is different than that. Even those word fantasy
is thrown in there and all that. It's it's such
a conversation starter because I think it does gauge where
people who follow wrestling really closely look at talent and

(01:17:43):
it's an indication of confirming that you should be pushing
the people you're pushing, or a rejection of who is
getting pushed. And to me, what's revealing about this somewhat
is this ev two angle that was supposed to cater
to internet fans, and you know, the ECW fans and
Dixie Carter got the excited about it, and Tommy Dreamer
carries himself like a star to her. He didn't get

(01:18:05):
one vote. There was, you know, one hundred wrestlers that
you know overall who got votes. Probably we only list
the top fifty because then it's, you know, become so
scattered and statistically insignificant. Tommy Dreamer didn't get one vote
at number ten, you know, he didn't get one point.
Nobody in EB two other than Rayven I think got

(01:18:26):
any votes at all. Nothing for Sanman, nothing for you know,
just incredible, nothing for Baltimony. All these guys who came
back for the EB two pay per view, the ones
who were still Oh Rhino I think got maybe one
vote or two votes. I remember him being very low
on my on my notepad as I was jotting done
all the names. But it's like there is not having
seen them again recently. There's and knowing that they're available

(01:18:49):
to work if you want them. There's no desire to
see Tommy Dreamer, who's getting a big push, or any
of the other people underneath them.

Speaker 3 (01:18:55):
No, they're just not national promotion guys. I mean, they
can beat role players on the undercard, but to feature
them as prominently as TNA has is a mistake and
it really does speak volumes when you know, Dixie thinks
it's that those guys are going to appeal that net audience.
And here you see this list and no sign of
any of them.

Speaker 1 (01:19:15):
That's cool.

Speaker 3 (01:19:16):
I just think it's great, I really do. And I
wouldn't have Tommy Dreamer or any of those guys anywhere
near my top fifty. They just there. I think Dreamer
has a little bit of reasionable, regional, independent, certain city
appeal to some extent. And again, he's a role player.
He's not the guy that you center an entire angle around.

(01:19:38):
I wouldn't even of the guys that are in there now,
I wouldn't even have him as the mouthpiece for the group.

Speaker 1 (01:19:44):
Yeah yeah, yeah, and the just TNA in general too.
Jeff Jarrett no votes. Wow, you know, I mean, it
didn't make the top fifty, not even close. Because he
didn't get votes. Nobody's thinking I need to build aroun
Jeffy and think about TNA. They still have him in
this mix. Kevin Nash got a couple of votes. You know,

(01:20:06):
I mean, we're bo We're talking real, you know, just
easily could have not gotten votes to I mean, it's
just the people who are getting a push in TNA
right now. Sting didn't make the top fifty. I don't know,
if i'd have to look, I don't he wasn't a
contender for top fifty. It wasn't you know. I was
doing ballots late last night and every last one that
came in I wanted to get in there because it
was making a difference on who made the top fifty,
and I like it to be authentic, and there was

(01:20:28):
I don't remember Sting being in the race to make
number fifty. You know, the Briscoes and Chris Hero and
Gail Kim and Shelton Benjamin and Jay Lethal beat Sting
and Kevin Nash and Jeff Jarrett. I mean, that's that's
scary for TNA, that they're pushing all these people and
fans who follow the product well enough to know to
put aj Styles at number five, to put Kurt Angle
at number eleven. They're not high on a lot of

(01:20:49):
these guys who are eating up TV time. MotorCity machine
Guns finished number ten. I mean, and so who TNA
is pushing. I mean, the guns are getting a little
more of a push now than a year ago. But
the people who TNAS are pushing and give me TV
time too. They're not even on the radar of who
fans would build their company around. You know, I don't
know if that's going to be eye opening to Dixie

(01:21:10):
or anyone in TNA, or they'll just write it off.
But your thoughts on that, well.

Speaker 3 (01:21:14):
You know you mentioned Kurt Angle at number eleven. I
just I can't do it. I think he No, You're
gonna get great matches out of him, but how long
can he keep doing this? When has Kurt Angle ever
drawn real money? I'm a little more open to the
idea of the machine guns, even though I think they're
way too high on this list because they haven't been
to WWE and they haven't been put in a position

(01:21:36):
to show whether they can draw money or not. Angle
has an Angle did not. It just he's way too
high on that list for my taste.

Speaker 15 (01:21:50):
Are you a fan of AW looking to sit back,
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(01:22:12):
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Speaker 1 (01:22:37):
I think part of what's fun about the draft for
people is to be predictive. They like to say, I
forecast that if this person was pushed right, they draw money.
And I think there is a desire to see tay
teams get a push. I think people like take team
wrestling more than the promoters and bookers in charge too.
And I think people look at the guns as doing
cool moves and having cool personalities. They've got a little quirkiness,

(01:22:59):
like John Morrison at them, but I think they see
it as more there's a greater connection and bond with them.
And I think sometimes when people vote in the draft,
it's a protest vote it's a protest against the lack
of a push for somebody, or endorsing a bigger push
for somebody who's getting a moderate push over some of
the other people. And you know, for people to vote
for Sab and Shelley and even beer Money. I mean,

(01:23:19):
they finished high two on the list at number thirteen,
you know, ahead of Edge, ahead of Raymisterial, ahead of
Jacks Lagger even you know, which I don't agree with it,
but I think that you know, it's reflective of a
desire to see good tach team wrestling again. And those
two teams had a great series not long after or
not long before the balloting started.

Speaker 3 (01:23:38):
And by the way, there was a time when I
would have had desmind Wolf around the same as Bond,
as of readers in that kind of fifteen. But when
the guy couldn't even pass the WWE medical you know,
pre screen medical, would Sam, I'm sorry, I'm not going
anywhere near that guy.

Speaker 1 (01:23:51):
Yep. One guy who finished really high with not much
of a track record is Alberto del Rio at number twenty.
Your thoughts on him so far, I.

Speaker 3 (01:24:01):
Mean, obviously a little bit of a flavor of the
month right now, because he is getting this prominent push
on SmackDown, but I had him very high. Also, I
see money in this guy. You know, I heard nothing
but negatives about him coming into the company and how
he's got such a big head. That scares me that
maybe he's not gonna, you know, pan out long term.
But right now, I think people are just attracted to

(01:24:22):
the fact that he's getting a push, he's living up
to the hype that they're generating for him, and so
I definitely think I definitely see m as a top
twenty guy right now.

Speaker 1 (01:24:31):
Yeah, I just need to see him deliver in the ring.
You know, the house show reports I'm reading are not encouraging.
You know, somebody like him should be hungry and trying
to make an impression on the agents, make an impression
on his colleagues, frankly, make an impression on the people
at these shows with the nopads who are sending in
reports that you know, tens thousands people are reading on
the internet or more, and he's not. You know, it
doesn't seem like he's there's you know, there's a sense

(01:24:53):
that his character might match his personality and the type
of approach he has, which is I'm already great and
I'm handsome and I'm fantastic, and you should just love
to see me and my presence. So it's too early
to draw a strong conclusion on that. I'm not going
to write a big editorial with headlines saying Alberto del
Rio is lazy and thinks you know and thinks sees
all that. But the signs are there that aren't encouraging.
You know, it's the opposite of what Seampunk was doing

(01:25:15):
when he first arrived. You know that I'm hungry and
I'm willing to do anything to get there. So it's
interesting to pair people who are really close in the
rankings and say, you know, well, how would you you know?
Jeff Hardy finished one spot above Alberto del Real del
Reel finished one spot ahead of mister Anderson. That's an
interesting comparison. Who would you choose between those two?

Speaker 3 (01:25:38):
I believe I had Anderson higher than del Rio, just
because he's a little bit more of a proven commodity.
I think, you know, the upside is still certainly there
for del Rio, so I can listen to that argument.
We haven't seen him peak out yet, like I think
we probably have Anderson and Anderson. I shouldn't say peak out.
I think there's his best work is still to come,
but I don't feel like he is. I don't he

(01:26:00):
has it in the ring, and I don't think he
is aware of that. And with del Rio, I'll play
Devil's advocate. This guy, this guy's worked at Lucas Style
for a lot of years and sometimes it's difficult to
make that transition. So maybe as time goes on and
he continues to work more matches, he'll be a little
bit better and you know, be able to deliver a
little bit more in the ring, whereas Anderson very full

(01:26:20):
of himself, as I think we all know, and I
just don't know that. You know, when you hear stories
from guys going, oh that man. You know, wrestlers who
watch his work or have work to him just say
he's got horrible footwork. It's not something that the fans
are always going to see and I wouldn't even pick
up on it, but you know, it jumps right out
and multiple people just say he doesn't have it and
it's just a fundamental problem that he's never bothered to correct,

(01:26:43):
and so I don't know that he ever will, and.

Speaker 1 (01:26:45):
It comes through in big matches when when the pressure's on,
you know, he and the Pope delivered a poor, a
poor TNA paper game made event. Yeah, you know, I
mean it wasn't It wasn't a bad match, but for
a main event level, trying to follow up Angle and Hardy,
it just it just didn't do it. You know, it
wasn't at the level it needed to be to go, Oh,
he's a guy you can build around. There is there
is something to being able to perform and leave fans

(01:27:07):
satisfied at the end of a big show, and he
has yet to do that. Another interesting comparison and then
we'll we'll wrap up here in a minute or two,
a kind of a head dead comparison. Rob van Dam
number twenty eight. Matt Morgan finished at number twenty seven.
They've got a guy on Ross you know who's been
around for a while in Morgan and somebody they went

(01:27:28):
out in god in Rob Van Dam and the people
who supposedly should be going nuts for RVD, which would
be the towards readership. You know, it's one of the
reasons to bring him in is to get that kind
of quote internet fan into him or the newsletter reader
into him. He finishes behind Matt Morgan, who hasn't really
who's been jobbed out the past couple months for the
most part.

Speaker 3 (01:27:45):
Yeah, I think fans just see that there's a lot
of potential. Therespect with Morgan sage and his mic work
has really impressed me. It's been a really disappointing year
for Morgan because he had that big match with Kurt
Angler bound for Glory last year, and you know it
was time, it was time for ten and A to
really follow up on that, and typical Vince rus so
he failed miserably. He put him in a tag team

(01:28:07):
with Hernandez and did everything but get behind him as
a singles wrestler. Where's Van Dam? You know what you're
seeing is what you get from Bandamn time and time again.
There's there's no real character change, there's nothing. I just
don't see anything truly dynamic about him as far as yet.
You know what's yet to come. You know what you're getting,
and there's there are a lot of things that are

(01:28:29):
truly dynamic about his in ring work, but you've seen
it all time and time again, and he can draw,
but he doesn't have that upside that I think a
guy like Morgan still does.

Speaker 1 (01:28:38):
Yeah, Well, Jason, I know you got to get ready
to do another show here in a few minutes, so
we'll wrap up our after show draft discussion there, but
I encourage the few members to check out that issue
and read your full column and my column. Bruce Mitchell's
got a column, Pat McNeil, Sean Radikin, Greg Parks, James Caldwell,
all of us writing future columns with the draft theme.
Issue is good to bring it back this year after

(01:28:59):
a hiatus for a little while, and it's always fun.
It's a good conversation. Stir And I know Simo Joe
I heard was was prouder than some people wanted him
to be over finishing number one on the list back
in two thousand and five. So it'll be interesting how
how what kind of word we get from, you know,
different people finishing real high on the list this year.

(01:29:19):
You know, I'm sure mizz will be excited to hear
about it, and the machine Guns will be happy that
they beat out Kurt Angle and Undertaker that type of thing.
So it's neat. It's legit voting, legit balloting, and I
think a pretty good reflection on what some of the
most informed fans where they would put their money right now.
If if their money was on the line, I'm going.

Speaker 3 (01:29:36):
To turn this around on you because we've got dot
nem members listening to this who may or may not
subscribe to The Torch, So why don't you tell them
how they can get their hands on this draft issue,
which is obviously quite a talker.

Speaker 1 (01:29:47):
PW Torch dot com slash go VIP. That's the sign
up page. You can become a member at any time,
and we've got an audio light option that starts at
five dollars a month for a limited assortment of the
Daily Killer Hotline and the VIP after Show every episode
of the After Show, and then rates start at ten
dollars a month, or like you have an annual discount

(01:30:08):
that drops the price down and it includes access to
this week's PDF and all past all recent past issues
and back issues going back over twenty years. In fact,
tomorrow we'll be putting up our twenty years ago back issue,
which is either this week or next week. It's the
first official Bruce Mitchell column and we'll follow the progression

(01:30:28):
of a great wrestling columnists to this generation and follow
through on a every other week or monthly basis. Here
at his column, So anyway, lots of good stuff there,
PW torch dot com, slash go VIP. Thanks Jason.

Speaker 3 (01:30:38):
And there's no one who loves a draft issue more
than Bruce Mitchella.

Speaker 1 (01:30:42):
He played. He played the game a little bit more
this year. But Pat McNeil did a nice job rebutting
Bruce in this week's issue. He actually came to my
defense against Bruce's curmudgeiny attitude towards it, and I think
had a good summary of what the point of the
draft is.

Speaker 3 (01:30:59):
So I'm looking forward to checking that out.

Speaker 1 (01:31:01):
Yeap. All right, Thanks Jason, Thanks everybody for listening. I'd
be happy Jason, Paul. This is PW Torch editor Wadekeller
signing off. Invite you to email the show with feedback

(01:31:26):
or questions or comments. That email address is Wade Keller
Podcast at petewtorch dot com. That's Wadekeller Podcast at PW
torch dot com. Also welcome your feedback on Twitter. You
can follow us on Twitter at PW Torch and follow
me at the Wade Keller That's at PW Torch and
at the Wade Keller.

Speaker 16 (01:31:47):
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(01:32:09):
all your favorite secondary apps, or visit us directly at
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Speaker 1 (01:32:18):
Thanks for listening to our podcast. Did you know we
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