15 YRS AGO: Keller & Powell scratching surface on what was wrong with Raw, Top Superstars DVD, what hooked us on wrestling, Pee Wee Herman

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Speaker 2 (01:06):
Now.

Speaker 3 (01:06):
PW Torch and Spreaker.

Speaker 1 (01:09):
Bring you the Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast.

Speaker 4 (01:16):
Fifteen years ago.

Speaker 1 (01:16):
This week on the flagship, Jason Powell from Pro Wrestling
dot Net joined me. We talked about raw from the
night before for more than an hour, yet just scratched
the surface of what was disappointing, awful, or counter productive
about the show. We took live calls throughout the live
hour on Raw and other topics, including what got us
into pro wrestling originally and why the Ron SmackDown travel

(01:37):
schedules are what they are. Then, in the previously via
p exclusive after show, we went more in depth into Raw,
including picking what we did like about the show, We
looked ahead to WrestleMania and disagreed on Pee Wee Herman.
Let's get to it. This is a Wade Keller Pro
Wrestling podcast fifteen years ago Flagship flashback for Friday, December nineteenth,
twenty twenty five oh Radio.

Speaker 5 (02:00):
Welcome to the PW Torch Live Cast. I am the host,
Wade Keller, editor and publisher of the Pro Wrestling Torch
newsletter PW torch dot com and my blog Wade Keller
dot Com, covering pro wrestling at MMA throughout the week
with updates every day, and I'm joined today by Jason
Powell of Pro Wrestling dot Net. Jason, as usual on Tuesdays,

(02:22):
is great to have you with us.

Speaker 6 (02:23):
How you doing you know, I've been better. I sat
through a really bad football game last night, and then
I watched an award show that I despise each and
every year. And I just finished watching TNA Impact from Thursday.
Oh wow, man, I really need to stop watching wrestling forever.

Speaker 5 (02:42):
I actually didn't mind Impact last week, so maybe we'll
have a discussion point on that. I thought they made
some strides forward in terms of slowing down the booking
and all that. But Raw last night frustrating show. I
wrote at length, but I normally I don't blog on
Raw until Tuesdays on Wadkeller dot com. I just was
worked up about it and wrote a pretty long blog
on it late last night after Raw was overpright one

(03:05):
in the morning, two in the morning. I just thought
it was a really disappointing, rushed ending to Sina Barrett.
And there's a lot we can talk about on that
Raw show, and I'm sure we will throughout this hour
and on the VIP after show afterwards. But focusing on
one thing for a moment, Wade Barrett and John Cena,
the hides of the storyline were really high.

Speaker 1 (03:23):
I thought they did a great job. At times.

Speaker 5 (03:25):
This felt like they sat here going what we only
have one more show to get to announcing the match.
We need a buy rate for the show, we need
Sena against Barrett. Let's just get it out there. And
they did it all wrong. As I wrote, They had
Barrett issuming the challenge to Sina, which I still don't
quite understand the psychology of us think, you know, thinking
Barrett's to heel when he's actually the one issuming the

(03:47):
challenge for a match, when he's the one who wanted
to get rid of scene in the first place. And
we have Sena saying what a great time he was
having tailgating with everybody, making it seem like this was
hardly torture to be fired, and it's almost a burden
that now is to stop part with the fans and
had to go back to wrestling. And then he throws
out the line, wait, Barrett, I'm going to take out
all my anger and frustration on you on Sunday. And
I just thought to myself, what anger and frustration you

(04:10):
You got a little break from wrestling, you got to
hang out with fans and drink and tailgate. Sounds like
you've been having a whale of a time. So that
alone was something that I thought really ended up being
kind of a weak final chapter to that storyline.

Speaker 6 (04:22):
Yeah, I've been worried about that ever since, you know,
it became obvious that Seena wasn't going to disappear from
television at all. I can't understand why they wouldn't imply
that he's there, that he's attacking Nexus members, to keep
the scene of fans watch and give him hope that
you know, he's still around, but not show him.

Speaker 1 (04:39):
On TV for a little bit.

Speaker 6 (04:41):
And last night, Yeah, for all the reasons you said,
very frustrating, Michael Cole had to offer that horrible excuse
for why Barrett let him back in. He let him
back in so they could do this. Well, what was
stopping them from beating the hell out of scene? And
when he was not employed by the company. The whole
thing was it started so strong it was convinced Russo
booking job. Because Russo comes up with some good ideas,

(05:04):
but he never knows how to fit execute them properly
from start to finish. And that's what this felt like.
It's just not a good storyline and it's a shame
because going into Survivor series, I thought they did an
excellent job. I wasn't crazy about what they did at
Survivor Series, but I thought the next night, with that
emotional promo that Seen had delivered, it was back on track.

(05:24):
But it's been all downhill since then.

Speaker 5 (05:27):
And I can kind of understand if they if they
made the choice, if they decided to make the choice
at one point, Do we want Scena gun so we
can draw when he gets reinstated, We want to draw
money with that, and so let's take them off TV?
Or are we so scared to take them off TV,
especially in the midst of USA network trying to scratch

(05:48):
and cloud their way to number one for this quarter.
They're already going to be number one for the year,
and they already promptively set out a press release because
their streak of being the number one network quarterly might
come to an end. So I'm wondering if they weren't conflicted.
I'm wondering if internally there wasn't an issue of do
we keep seeing on TV because we can't afford to
lose Seena fans and we don't know if we will

(06:09):
or not, but I don't know that we can take
that chance. And did they consciously almost sacrifice what you know,
the first rematch or the first match between Seena and
Barrett after Seena's firing. I wonder if they're not aware
of our criticism. I don't think they're oblivious to it.
I think they made a choice that they knew had
a bad It was a tough choice. Either take Seene

(06:30):
off TV and risk the wrath of USA for ratings
going down, or keep seeing on TV, keep all the
Scena fans happy, have some fun with it, but maybe
lose a little bit in the payoff match. That said,
if I'm to give them that much credit and say
they put back themselves in the corner and shows one
of two bad choices, there's still a better way, in
the context of the three hour show last night, to

(06:50):
work your way to Sena versus Barrett. And that has
to be somehow getting Seena to be the one who
suggests they wrestle next Sunday and Barrett, in a moment.

Speaker 1 (06:59):
Of of.

Speaker 5 (07:01):
Desperation or being charged up emotionally agrees to it, or
perhaps Barret's forced into it. But I think what we
want to see is I think what Sena fans want
to see the storyline would be Sena's going to get
his hands on Barrett, and Barrett doesn't want to be
in there. It's totally backwards to have Barrett being the
one who said I want to fight you John Cena
in a chairs match.

Speaker 6 (07:22):
Yes, it is. You go back to that line that
Sina had that sticks out that he was going to
turn Barrett's face into mush one way or another Survivor series.
He didn't deliver on that, but that's the type of
froma you would have expected from him last night to
set up this match. And now what should have been
what I think a lot of us considered is a
wrestle many if possibility, if they wanted to stretch it
out that far. It just kind of feels like the

(07:43):
middle of the card match. It doesn't feel special.

Speaker 5 (07:46):
Totally agree. Totally agree, Jason. If we keep talking about
rob we'll probably look at the clock. It'll be twenty
minutes later. I'm going to start with phone calls. We
definitely have more we can talk about with Raw last night,
tons of subjets coming out of that three hour show,
But we do want to get to calls because we'll
have the VP after show where we can go more
in depth if we don't have time during the live show.
Our phone number here at the PW Torch Live cast

(08:07):
is six four six seven one nine A two eight.
That's six four six nine two eight. We're here five
days a week, and we are approaching our one year
anniversary of doing the show every single day Monday through Friday,
including Thanksgiving, and so we appreciate everybody being with us
for all these shows, and we continue to uh to
grow in listenership, and the thousands and thousands of lour

(08:30):
listeners much appreciated. Keep spreading the word about the show,
and we look forward to a Grade twenty eleven. Also,
let's go to our first phone call, and it is
area code nine three one. Thanks for calling. Please state
your name and where you're from.

Speaker 4 (08:44):
Hey, it's Dean from Tennessee.

Speaker 1 (08:46):
Hey, Ian, Good here from you again. What's on your
mind tonight?

Speaker 6 (08:49):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (08:49):
Well, I read your blog dot raw on wait tillar
dot com and something that you said really struck a
nerd with me in agreement talking about how they really
made no mention afterward about seamous though and John Moore
won the latter that it didn't really even matter.

Speaker 1 (09:10):
And it.

Speaker 4 (09:12):
Got me thinking that it just seems like they're going
out of their way to make every show a feel
good show for the kids. That put an emphasis that
one of their favorite wrestlers has hurt would be too
much of a downer, but you know, it's it's almost
killing the core of what they're trying to do.

Speaker 5 (09:33):
Yeah, Jason, what do you think I wrote about that?
Ian kind of well, go ahead and react to that.

Speaker 1 (09:41):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (09:41):
I mean, if you haven't had a chance to check
out my raw hit list today, because I hit on
a similar theme where it's just WWE, especially in the
month of December. You know, as we get closer to
the end of the year, they get to feel good
and it's really they're taking on the personality of John
Cen And I'm hopeful that with January rolling around in

(10:01):
the Royal Rumble approaching, that's usually when they start to
take themselves seriously again. So I'm hoping it's just kind
of a seasonal thing. But it just WWE is so
tongue in cheek and like you said, so feel good.
As I wrote, it feels like the circus coming to
town once a year. As far as the live events goes,
it doesn't feel like I've got to go see these guys.

(10:24):
It's like, well, it's here. I've got a house show
coming here in February, and you know, I'm sure I'll go.
But it's not like I just anxiously awaiting to see
WWE in person, because everything just kind of feels like
feel good and happy and there's nothing compelling. There's no
they don't put major heat on the heels. It's just,
you know, it's a couple of baby face starring driven

(10:46):
show right now, and it just doesn't feel like mussy
television or mussy in person live events.

Speaker 5 (10:53):
I just put up on wed color dot com a
photo essay, Part two of Kurt Henning. I've been going
through my photo collection and putting together batches of photos
and writing about my experience shooting shooting the photos, and
over the past few days we put up a couple
of parts on Kurt Henning. I'll have a third one
later in the week, probably the uh the one that
I just put up literally right before going on the

(11:14):
air today was of a two match series against of
Hok Hogan against Kurt Henning, and I'm I'm you know,
as we talk about how shows and the feel good
and it feels like a circus and that type of
thing WWE never for me felt like the AWA did.
And I know a lot of people the wrestling that
makes them fans the first time. There's always a special
place in their heart for that, and I get that

(11:36):
and to a certain degree what hooked you on wrestling,
And when you looked at it through more innocent eyes,
you're gonna remember certain things about it that you'd like
wrestling later on in your life to emulate. And sometimes
it's just nostalgic, but other times there's really something to it.
And in this case, I'm looking at this and it's
a you know, bloody cage match with Hogan and Heading

(11:56):
and Hending taking these crazy bumps. And I remember feeling
at WWF it didn't have as I didn't feel like
it was as big of an event as when the
AWA had their shows at the Saint Pacific Center, but
it felt more like it felt more like it was
significant and a sporting event. And as you see said Jason,
kind of you almost feel compelled to go, it's a

(12:19):
musty event. It had much much more of that feeling
with that kind of show. Then we get now where
it really does feel like they're going through the motions
on a touring act and it's a Disney on ice
more so than the circus.

Speaker 1 (12:30):
You know.

Speaker 5 (12:30):
It kind of feels like that and very much a
feel good show, and I don't know that feel good
shows draw money. Last night's show was and I wrote
this too it It was mildly entertaining from start to finish.
I thought Vladimir had a good line, and I thought
Morrison took a great bomb, But I thought Michael Cole
for what he did, if you isolate it as a

(12:50):
just evaluating the performance, was good. I can list fifty
things like that that were mildly and pleasant about mildly
entertaining and pleasant about the show. But I didn't, in
the end at all feel compelled to order anything. And
I didn't feel like I've got to see that match.
And that is what I think is missing with this
formula right now, the whole thing about the TLC format
and having Morrison and this ian. You brought this up,

(13:12):
and I'll elaborate for those who didn't read my blog yet.
On Raw, they threw Seamus through Morrison over the top
rope onto a ladder that was bridged over the ring
apron and the ring barrier, an incredible bump. I mean
Morrison bounced off of the ladder back first. It was insane.
It doesn't Wwe treated it like it was a backdrop
or an arm bar or a drop kick. When somebody

(13:34):
does that, it has to be a bigger deal. And
they didn't mention it again. And that's the problem with
the TLC pay per view format is by definition saying
we need to make this pay per view stand out.
So every match is gonna have a table, a ladder,
or a chair or all three. What you're doing is
you're forcing the same thing with an all cage format,
or it's the same thing when we come around to

(13:55):
elimination chamber time. You're forcing a feud before it's ready
into that format. And when every match has a table,
a ladder or a chair and you have to have
some sort of angle that justifies it, you have a
show full of people getting hit with chairs and taking
bumps and landing on ladders and going through tables, and
by the end none of it sticks. And frankly, we
got so much, so many chair shots, so much stuff

(14:18):
with tables and stunts and bumps, and in the crash
through the table that.

Speaker 1 (14:22):
I don't know.

Speaker 5 (14:23):
Over the last couple of weeks that I don't know
that people feel the need now to order the pay
per view to see the novelty of it. They already
saw quite a bit of it. And the worst part
is they saw a lot of it, and they were
taught the last couple of weeks it doesn't matter because
none of it hurts. And besides the Morrison thing, it
was John Cena. He took these nasty chair shots at
the beginning of the show and then came out later
to accept his award and was all happy, smiley, and

(14:44):
then at the end of the show deliver some chair
shots to O Tongue and O Tongua manages to roll
out of the ring. The chair shots, now we're taught
don't matter and on a slight tangent because it's not
a weapon shot. But it's part of the problem that
WWA has as they do these feel good shows. Michael
Cole look an RKO from Randy Orton and now he's
on the show joking around with no neck brace. Worried

(15:05):
more about a slammy. I mean, if an announcer takes
an RKO a mere mortal, the rule is you sell
it for more than ten minutes, or you sell it
for more than a day. Cole should have been out there,
and not for comedy, it should have been for serious.
He should have been out there in a neck brace
or showing the effects of that RKO. I get that

(15:26):
not every wrestler's going to sell an RKO for three weeks,
but when a mere mortal does, you better sell it,
and it doesn't even cross their mind to do that,
and that's what's I just think that's what's really missing
in the AWA. If somebody got cut in a match
at the Saint Paalcific Center, they'd wear a bandage for
two weeks on their forehead to sell it. And that
just doesn't happen anymore, and I think it's disrespectful to
the sacrifice the wrestlers go through also physically. All Right,

(15:48):
there's my rant.

Speaker 1 (15:51):
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(16:13):
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what you like about the programs in the comments section.
Thank you so much. He had any follow up on
either me or Jason.

Speaker 4 (16:31):
Yeah, you guys were exactly right. It just seems like
they're trying to go out of their way to emphasize
that it's fake and that it's you know, they're not
really hurting each other. But I had one quick question
I've always wondered about it since they did the brand split.
Why does WWE run a SmackDown house show at the

(16:53):
exact same time as Raw as on the air?

Speaker 1 (16:58):
Jason, what do you know?

Speaker 6 (17:00):
I think it's just a scheduling issue and because you know,
the Raw crew goes out on Friday and they don't
always do this. You don't see as many Monday night
HOW shows is used to, but with SmackDown taping on Tuesday,
it just works better for that particular crew. I'm I'm
actually surprised WWE doesn't force him to go out on
the road on Friday and keep him out there an
extra day. But oh yeah, yeah, I think it's it's

(17:23):
for the good of the talent that they keep that
structure the way it is.

Speaker 1 (17:28):
And by the way, next week we're going to have
a live SmackDown. That's right.

Speaker 5 (17:32):
That was pretty big news on USA Network Tuesday night.
It's going to be WWE week on USA Network, a
live R on Monday, a live SmackDown on USA on Tuesday,
and then Tribute to the Troops and expanded edition on Wednesday. Again,
I think USA making a mad dash towards trying to
improve the average rating for for this quarter.

Speaker 1 (17:49):
I haven't checked the schedule to.

Speaker 5 (17:50):
See a SmackDown airs on Friday as usual.

Speaker 1 (17:52):
I assume it is.

Speaker 6 (17:53):
It does. It's a replay NXT is the show that
moves an hour later, and it will be a live broadcast,
So yes, you can keep an eye on the stands
and watch as people leave after the SmackDown tape and concludes.

Speaker 1 (18:07):
In anything else for us now.

Speaker 4 (18:10):
That was it. I was just asking that because the
same not that raws In Nashville, they have a smackdownhouse show.
It's still with especially drive distance.

Speaker 1 (18:19):
Oh, I was wondering.

Speaker 5 (18:20):
Yeah, so I mean from a geographical standpoint, Yeah, Ron
SmackDown generally are taped near each other because the production
people they have one production crew in a big truck
and they have different sets. Well actually they don't even
have that. The sets aren't even that different anymore. So
they want to be nearby, say, can get from Monday
to Tuesday to the next town for the TV and
since SmackDown, yeah sensations that they run show Saturday, Sunday

(18:41):
and Tuesday, if they can find a building on Monday,
since the crew is already on the road and it's
driving distance, they will tend to try to fill, you know,
fill that date with the show. A lot of times
though they have Mondays off. I'm not sure the percentage, Jason,
Do you know right off, how many times SmackDown runs
a show I'll show on a Monday up against raw geograph?

Speaker 6 (19:00):
Yes, you know, it doesn't happen that often anymore. Okay, Yeah,
it was a little more frequent there for a while,
but I just think with the live event attendance being now,
they probably realize that, you know, do we really want
to run on a Monday night maybe, and it could
have something to do with it being football season two
for all I know. But you know TNA will do
that too. They'll run against their own show on Thursday

(19:20):
night with with live events as well, just because it
works out better scheduling wise for them. And going back
to the SmackDown crew. You know, they're on the road
Tuesday night, they fly out Wednesday morning. If they were
to do Friday night house shows, they'd be you know,
basically going home, changing clothes and catching a flight again.

Speaker 5 (19:36):
Yes, and that would somehow count as a lighter schedule than.

Speaker 1 (19:40):
It used to be. So shut up and enjoy it exactly. Yes, yes,
all Rdian, thanks for your call. Appreciate it as always.
All right, Tom, let's go.

Speaker 5 (19:49):
To our next call and go to air code seven
two four.

Speaker 1 (19:53):
Thanks for calling. Please state your name and where you're from.

Speaker 7 (19:56):
Hey Waite, Hey Jason, David Pittsburgh.

Speaker 1 (19:59):
Hey Dave good here, what's in your mind today? Well?

Speaker 7 (20:02):
I just wanted to talk a little bit about raw
First off, I think the three three hour raws they
need to go, and if they do have them, they
need to probably be about once a year. They don't
have enough content to fill shows to make them enjoyable.
Last night, I mean I watched through probably about two

(20:26):
hours and fifteen minutes, and then I had Ron in
the background and was doing some Christmas shopping online.

Speaker 8 (20:32):
You know, it's just.

Speaker 7 (20:34):
It's just so hard to follow because I thought that
that raw had been, you know, pretty good for the
past month. The Old School Raw was was good. The
week after that was good, the King of the Ring
was okay. But I mean last night it was just
it just seems what they do, you know, they have
good shows and then they just won. That's just within

(20:56):
the crapper. I mean, it's just terrible and and I
I mean I didn't really like last night showing, and uh,
you know the TLC thing. I think last night, I
come there. I came to a realization that that's probably
my least favorite gimmick pay per view because because the
match is more or less a glorified ladder match. And

(21:19):
you know, I mean, why why why can't you use
a chair or a table in a in a ladder match?
I mean, it's just a fancy name that they created
in the early two thousands for you know, the Dudley's,
the Hardy's and edgend Christian now they roll with it,
face a whole pay per view around it, and and
what the hell is a chair match anyway? Can't they

(21:41):
use weapons any other kind of weapon in the match?
I mean just took the chairs. I mean, it's just
the no DQ match.

Speaker 1 (21:48):
To me, Yeah, field for the table. It would be funny.

Speaker 5 (21:52):
It would be funny to see uh in the chair
match Wade bar pull out a table and get disqualified,
you know? Or I mean, well, I shouldn't even suggest
that because they'll do it. I agree, I mean, I agree.
This started with Dusty Rhodes when he was booker of
TNA doing the all cage format.

Speaker 6 (22:11):
And he will say that was not him, that was
Dixie carteration sneak it in there.

Speaker 5 (22:16):
Oh well good, No, I'm glad you clarified that. I
remember Dusty, I think defending it publicly, but maybe maybe
my memory isn't serving me right there either. But the
idea was, well, if one cage match helps advise, let's
do a host show full of cage matches and that'll
really increase fies. Not really getting that. The answer to
that is no, that's like the NFL going, Hey, if
one super Bowl draws, why don't we have four of

(22:38):
them on Super Bowl weekend, and we'll have match the
first the best team against the second best, and then
the third against the fourth, and the fifth against the sixth,
and they all get trophies. It's like, no, that doesn't
work at well, actually it might be kind of fun,
but no college bowl system would thank you. Yes, yeah,
but well no, the college that the NFL ACO will
be the number one team beats the number sixth team,

(22:58):
and then the number two team beats number five team,
and then everyone for four months debates did number two
accomplish something more by beating the number four team than
the number one team did by beating the number six team.
I'm already explaining out loud while saying this why I
don't like college football, but you and me both Yeah, sorry, James,
Well anyway, yeah, I don't. I don't like the format
of I think one TLC match on a show full

(23:21):
of regular matches draws better. And I think if you're
gonna have a TTLC pay per view, and I'm against
that in general, but if you're going to do TLC
team pay per view, have it be really novel that
it's the one time of year tables ladders and shares
are legal in one match, that'll draw. But if you
do three hours of tables, ladders and chairs on Raw
and you did lay it ladder, a ladder match the

(23:43):
week before, and another ladder match the week before, guess what.
By the time the payperper becomes around, people like, oh,
I've seen that a lot TLC doesn't really isn't something
I need to see because I just said for three
straight weeks on TV. There's something about leaving it to
the imagination of the viewer what it's like and showing
them over and over again. But then, as Ian said
our first caller, they want to do feel good television,

(24:05):
so we can't sell anything because that would mean the
stuff hurts. So it's turned into a road Runner Wiley
Coyote cartoon where it's just all about haha, Gafa lass
and one lighters and if you get hit with a chair,
it doesn't count. If you die on SmackDown by being
pushed in a wheelchair over the edge and you go splat,
we're not even going to talk about it, but we're

(24:27):
gonna talk about edge tormenting Kane, but we're gonna stay
away from the lingering question of Is Paul Bear alive
or did he die? I mean, it's just absurd. There's
something to be said for from opening the closing credits,
trying to have something that we can kind of believably
buy into, and the creative license that they're utilizing now
is just destroying. I think the viewers need to buy

(24:49):
the payoff match and it's not gonna be good for business.
And I think it's one of the reasons pay per
views are diminishing. They're serving too many masters and I
don't really think they got their eye on a singular
focus of figuring out how to produce entertaining TV that
sells pay per view matches, and instead they're creating entertaining
TV and not really and in the process of undercutting

(25:12):
the ability to sell pay per views.

Speaker 6 (25:14):
And how about trying to actually put some heat on
a heel, I mean, and not just in a misway
where he's the vulnerable champion. You want to see him
get his That works for some guys. Good example last
night I think is Wade Barrett and Big Show. Wade
Barret's a guy that can build up, is a credible
in ring talent that can hang with the baby faces.
He can go with John Cen and Randy Orton. You

(25:35):
don't know who's going to win if you build him
up that way by having him duck out and just
bow out of a match with Big Show. He's no
different than the miss yep.

Speaker 5 (25:46):
I agree, and Big Show is not a hot enough
act right now, and he's not going to be a
centerpiece guy for you, Wade Barrett beating Big Show, and again,
the whole key to this would be the announcers need
to make a big deal out of it, and it
needs to be pretty much one of two or three
stories on the show. You can't do that at the
beginning of the show and then forget about it by
hours two and three and expect it to stick. That's

(26:06):
been T and A's problem for years. But yeah, if
Barrett beat the Big Show, I mean that would send
a message to Seena fans. This guy's good. He's not
just relying on all his teammates the storyline I think
they were going for. And again, sometimes I say this,
sometimes they have somewhere they want to go, they see
where their start point is, they know where they want

(26:26):
to get to, and they just not go over a
bunch of traffic cones. Getting there, and that's what they
did last night. What they wanted to do is get
to the point where Barrett was showing. It was showing
that Barrett needs his support group, he needs his his
his followers to be there to help him get out
of a bad situation like that against Big Show. So
they had so they decided let's make him look vulnerable

(26:46):
and not in Big Shows league. But in the process
they they destroyed the idea that maybe Barrett's credible enough
to do some damage to John Cena. So and if
the point was, well, now that Barrett's at full strength,
now that he's got his troops back now scene as
in trouble, well, they didn't try that point home well enough.

Speaker 1 (27:02):
And by the way, I'd kind.

Speaker 5 (27:03):
Of like to know what Bear do to talk them
into being on his side instead of Otunga's. I don't
think that's apparent to me, Jason, to that seem apparent
to you.

Speaker 6 (27:10):
No, I didn't get that whole thing. I don't understand
why John Cena would have so much venom for Otunga either,
when Otunga is the reason he's got a shot back. Yeah,
nexus and everything, but it just seems that that was
a really clunky storyline and a really sloppy finish to
that show.

Speaker 5 (27:29):
There's so many there's there's so many wrestlers out there
too who are competent at what they do, but they
just don't have that in factor, the star power, and
especially relatively undersized guys. Why not have a job or
crew and they don't have to go on the road
full time all the time. But I think WWE, and
I know they're cutting back on everything. They don't want
to pay licensing fees for their intro song most weeks,

(27:51):
they're not doing the pyrone anymore. And I get all that,
but there's wrestlers out there who are busting tail, who
are good on indie shows, driving two, three, four hundred
miles on weekends to earn one hundred bucks. WWE can
beat that. I feel safe saying bring three four jobbers
on the road, have a crew of about fifteen, Bring
three or four of them on the road with you
every weekend, and then give them have them on the

(28:13):
road for a week, then give them two weeks off
and bring them back again and rotate them. But have
some guys who can take great bumps and make people
like Wade Barrett and Jack Swagger and Edge look like
killer heels or killer baby faces, just dominant. Give give
us a chance to see Wade Barrett's finisher destroy somebody
who it doesn't hurt your business to destroy. And I

(28:34):
get that. In the old days that they used to
always work TV tapings in the Northeast, and the jobbers
were always available in the AWA. They had their Midwest
crew and they'd takee TV. You'd see the same group
of jobbers and they all live locally. And now since
one week they're in Phoenix, the next Orlando and the
next New York, they can't. They don't want to get
to know the indie wrestlers, and there's insurance issues, and
they don't know if these guys are really going to

(28:54):
go out there and embarrass them on live TV.

Speaker 1 (28:56):
I get all that. That's what I'm saying.

Speaker 5 (28:57):
Just pick twelve to fifteen reliable guys that you believe,
even bring them on the road with you. Just give
them a living, Just let them earn thirty five to
forty thousand a year, work in one out of three
weeks if that, and then have them go out there
and get heat on the heels by having the heels
destroy them. I just think squash matches are so underutilized.
Then the belief is and even some people when I've

(29:18):
written about this have said it, Oh, I don't want
to watch a squash match, But I think you have
to experience the idea of every week getting to see
your favorite wrestlers or your least favorite wrestlers showcase what
they do to get the effect of it. Because by
seeing a top wrestler destroy jobbers, it builds anticipation because
you get to know his primary finishers and his secondary

(29:40):
finishers and see them used really effectively with somebody who
can really bump and put them over. And then by
the time you get to say, Wade Bart against Big Show,
or if Edge is beating up jobbers and Jack Swager
beating up jobbers and now they face each other on TV,
now there's some anticipation there. But instead we don't really
know their signature moves as much as we used to.
And you have Swager job into Edge for no good
reas last night, and it doesn't really mean anything because

(30:02):
the elterers don't talk about it. It doesn't really build up Edge.
It just kind of diminishes Jack Sueger a little bit.
So get some of these good indie guys who are
looking for work in are hungry to earn just a
basic salary. Get them on the road and start start
having showcase matches for these top stars, and then we
lose some of the issues that we have with them
just randomly putting Big Show and Wade Barrett out there.

Speaker 9 (30:28):
Are you a fan of AW looking to sit back,
relax and listen to some like minded podcasters who share
your passion.

Speaker 8 (30:35):
Do you want to be topped off the ledge after
a segment that has you wondering what the heck are
they thinking?

Speaker 9 (30:40):
Do you want to join a discussion on what AW
is doing right and what they could do to improve?
Then join me Joel and me Greg.

Speaker 2 (30:48):
For the All Elite Conversation Club every Friday on the
pw torch Live Cast. Fee search pw Torch in your
podcast app and subscribe to pw torch Daily Cast our
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Speaker 5 (31:16):
Dave any any follow up from you before we move on.

Speaker 7 (31:19):
I just had a couple of quick comments the ELC
pay per view if correct me if I'm wrong, but
I believe that it has every match is a gimmick match,
and the one that isn't is a triple threat match.

Speaker 6 (31:33):
No, that's that's a ladder match as well.

Speaker 5 (31:36):
That's a lot of yeah what what matches that because
I didn't know there was one that wasn't.

Speaker 6 (31:39):
That's the Intercontinental title ladder match as well.

Speaker 1 (31:42):
Yeah, so that's that's ladder two.

Speaker 7 (31:45):
Oh okay, so every every match match the gimmick match,
which you know, at least like the Hell in the
Cell pay per views, it was only like, you know,
one or two Hell in the Cell matches. But anyway,
the other point I make I want to make is
they just need a whole new booking team I think.
I mean, these guys are terrible. I mean, it's just
like with the Raw GM. I mean, there's no rhyme

(32:05):
or reason to it anymore. You know, it was funny
because I think they mentioned it it awful lot last night,
So maybe they're trying to get in gear with that,
and I don't know, but that's all I had for today.
Thanks for taking my call.

Speaker 5 (32:18):
Hey Dave, great, Thanks appreciate your contribution to the show.
Let's keep you all through. Calls were halfway through the show.
I'm Aid Keller, joined today by Jason Powell of Pro
Wrestling dot Net and if you want to join us
on the phone, makes We've got four people on hold
right now. You can be fifth. The number is six four, six,
seven to one, nine.

Speaker 1 (32:34):
Eight to eight.

Speaker 5 (32:36):
Let's go to uh aeric code nine one seven. Thanks
for calling. Please state your name and where you're from.

Speaker 8 (32:44):
Hey, guys, it's Joe from Queen Tie. Guys are doing today,
doing great. Thanks for calling, Joe, Hey, thanks for chaking
my call. Really enjoyed the new website Wade Oh your
ONNG one love like you're a lot.

Speaker 1 (32:56):
It's fun with it.

Speaker 8 (32:56):
Uh yeah, it's a good definitely a good read. I
just wanted to get your reaction. One thing that you
guys haven't talked about yet to the actually was like,
to me, the most newsworthy thing that came out last
night Award show, if you want to call it with
CM Punk stating that you know he's you know and
Layman seventeens like you know, don't you know? Su Me,

(33:17):
I remember who you are? Kind of like ye thrown
out challenge for someone and I just want to know
who you guys thought it was, because if you want
me to think, guys, I think it looks like maybe
I would have mind them seen maybe him working against
John Cena, because it looks like we're going to have
the blowoff possibly for this the NEXTUS thing at the
next pay per view, And I just want to know
what you guys thought about having him against Sena and

(33:39):
do you think that would be possibly a WrestleMania match.

Speaker 6 (33:43):
Jason, Uh, you know, I was thinking. I guess I
was thinking of Randy Orton, and I think Scena is
going to be tied up with something involving the WWE Championship,
whether it's mis or someone else, and Orton right now,
because he's working w W Championship matches, it strikes me
as the odd man. I guess they could always go
to the triple threat route, which I hope they don't,

(34:03):
But I'm trying to think. Was there some storyline history
between Punk and Orton? And I'm forgetting does anyone remember
even in the chatroom?

Speaker 8 (34:13):
No, I just know that. Yeah, I just know about
the Sina thing was because of last week when he
was doing that stupid when they had the drink thing.
Remember when Sina, he was doing that for you, and
he took see him Punk's drink or whatever, and he
like threw it at him. That's that's why I came
up with the Sena thing because of what happened last
week at the end of the show.

Speaker 5 (34:31):
I think it to me, it seemed like that was
more like not even meant for the camera. It was
just them as pals kind of reacting to each other
in kind of a fun way, which I think is
a little bit of a dangerous punk Punk brings that
to the table a little bit.

Speaker 1 (34:46):
He kind of likes to.

Speaker 5 (34:47):
I mean, it's part of what makes Hi good at
what he does. But there's there's some drawbacks to it,
and I think that was him breaking character a little bit,
and he and seen it just sharing a moment that
wasn't necessarily meant for everyone else to understand. It's kind
of the whole high school clubhouse once table thing. So yeah,
I don't I mean cempunk. Vincent Man's a fan of punk,
and you have to be a you have to have

(35:08):
Vince has to be a fan of you if you're
going to be his size and as ordinary looking as
he is compared to most other wrestlers, Vince sees something
in him and liked him. I'm not sure seeing him
make sense. Who who injured CM Punk?

Speaker 6 (35:21):
Was there a storyline that we have people in the
forum saying Orton did Punk kick Punk?

Speaker 1 (35:29):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (35:30):
So I guess, you know, yeah, I mean that makes
a little bit more sense then Oh yeah, they knocked
him out of the scramble match.

Speaker 1 (35:37):
Oh well, I.

Speaker 6 (35:38):
Mean the other the alternative number. It doesn't It's not
something w W would normally. You you know, they were
going to do something with Daniel Bryan and CM Punk
before Punk got hurt, and you know, it doesn't seem
like anything they do to acknowledge their history in Roah.
But I guess if they wanted to just create some
backstory issue between the two, they always could.

Speaker 5 (35:59):
Right, Oh totally yeah, So yeah I didn't.

Speaker 1 (36:02):
I didn't.

Speaker 5 (36:02):
I mean I didn't see that as a headline out
of the event. But it did intrigue me when he
said it, because I was kind of waiting to see
where he was going with it and whether it was
even going to.

Speaker 1 (36:10):
Relate to KOFEE.

Speaker 5 (36:10):
King student came out and kind of interrupted him as
as as Punk was finishing up KOFE came out and
I thought, well, maybe that's going to instigate something. But yeah,
everybody in the chat room is just saying that Orton
Orton punk, you know, punted uh punk, and that could
be the storyline explanation than that punk uses and it would.
I mean, I think again, I'm looking for somebody to

(36:31):
bring something new out of Randy Orton. I thought mis would,
and I haven't seen anything strong out of Orton yet
regarding that. Uh well, anyway, Joe, anything else for us?

Speaker 8 (36:42):
Yeah, last question I hang up doesn't have to do
with raw. I was wondering where you know, how you
give sure you guys heard of the term uh pot
heat having with Sean Wallman. I was just wondering where
did that originate from? And like what it exactly is?

Speaker 1 (36:58):
And that's cool, great question. Yeah.

Speaker 5 (37:02):
The what x poc heat means is it's we aren't
booing you because we're enjoying you being a heel and
it's fun like John Cena kind of plays up, now,
oh yeah, boomy because you like your at least you're
reacting to me. X poc heat was we're tired of
your act. We're tired of you, and we want you

(37:22):
to go away, So we're booing you in that respect,
and the you know, the feeling was that you know,
XPOC was to a certain extent, it was fair and unfair.

Speaker 1 (37:29):
It was he was seen as a guy with drug
problems who wasn't the worker he once was in terms
of what the performances he was putting in, and that
he was kind of a hanger on.

Speaker 5 (37:38):
He was a lackey. It was an unfair perception that
he was. He was a star because Hall he was
buddies with Hallan Nash, as Hall and Nash both told
me and their long torch tucks that I did with him.
X POC was a workhorse at the group because Hallan
Nash couldn't fill the matches and so XPOC was the
guy who did the took all the bumps and worked
the majority of the tag matches during the nWo era.

(37:58):
And he was, as Hallan Nash would say, the MVP
of the nWo being a working act as opposed to
just a TV act. But doesn't change the fact that
personality wise, XPOC either was a little too good at
what he did or people just got really sick of
that kind of look and that gimmick, and it overstated
it's welcome, and they took it out on him. So
when he started getting mooved, people were like, we're booing

(38:20):
you because we don't want you on television anymore. Please
go away. And that's that's kind of how the term
caught fire. And I've talked to Sean about it. It
doesn't thrill him that that term got on because it
isn't It isn't the type of compliment that I think
a wrestler wants. But that's what that means. As opposed
to money drawing heat, it means we're not paying to
see you heat, you're taking up space.

Speaker 1 (38:38):
Go away.

Speaker 6 (38:39):
In modern terms, seel a cool. See David Arquette, even
Eric Young when he was a member of a World Elite.
Those are a few actual they jump out at me.

Speaker 5 (38:49):
Yeah, all right, hey, thanks for your call, Joe Jason.
Before we go any further, why don't you go ahead
and talk about your website a little bit and your
membership and entice people to visit your website if they
don't regularly, or your apps, and also let them know
about the membership benefits.

Speaker 6 (39:03):
Absolutely. I mentioned the raw hit list. I post those
each and every Tuesday, had a lot more to say
about the WWE Raw show that we're going to be
able to get into today. That is available to everyone
at Pro wrestling dot Net on the member's side of things,
usually between four and five hours of new audio each
and every week. Each all the pay per views WWE

(39:24):
and TNA are recapped, and now Chris Shore is going
to be taking care of this Saturday's final battling audio
form as well. I interviews galore, including I'm hoping a
couple more before the end of the year. I've got
something in the works for tomorrow, but I've learned don't
publicly announce it because you'll end up chinxing yourself. And
the best part is membership to the ad free version

(39:45):
of Pro wrestling dot Net starts at just five dollars
and fifty cents per month if you take the annual option.
And for all the sign up info, head on over
to pro Wrestling dot Net and you'll see that all
that sign up stuff right in the middle of the page.
You can't miss it.

Speaker 5 (40:00):
Very excellent. All right, Let's go back to the phone line.
It's got a lot of people on hold. If you
want to get line the number six four six seven
to one nine eight, two eight. I've got four people
on hold, so let's go to Erico twol six. You're
next in line.

Speaker 1 (40:13):
Please state your name and where you're from.

Speaker 10 (40:16):
Hey, this is Andrew from Seattle.

Speaker 1 (40:18):
Hey, Andrew, good here for your voice. What's up today?

Speaker 10 (40:22):
I email on weekend about the top fifty Greatest Superstars
won Old GBD. Yeah, and I had the the explanation
of why they were ranked the way they were, and
it was because the superstars were pulled. And I'm not
really sure that that's more or less kind of a depressing.

Speaker 5 (40:44):
Yeah, and I don't know that it's true.

Speaker 10 (40:47):
That's really how well, go ahead.

Speaker 1 (40:50):
You No, it's gonna say.

Speaker 5 (40:50):
I don't even know if it's entirely true because what
we originally heard two is that the office staff was pulled. Also, Uh, Jason,
did you hear that?

Speaker 6 (40:57):
Yeah? I just don't take their list seriously enough to care,
so I didn't even ask around. They're such a joke.
I think they want this type of reaction and I
won't give it to them.

Speaker 1 (41:10):
Yeah.

Speaker 10 (41:10):
Yeah, it's a it's a totally ludicrous list, and I
think that them promoting it as a controversial DVD is
totally just them trying to get that kind of reaction.

Speaker 8 (41:20):
I think you're right.

Speaker 5 (41:21):
It's their way of saying, well, we meant to be controversial,
or you know, it's they called it shocking, Well, I
have a shocking list put May Young as the number
one superstar of all time. That's shocking. And it's not
that much, you know, it's not that much more entirely
stupid and discrediting than the list that they put out.
And I don't think they I don't think they put
the list out to.

Speaker 1 (41:39):
Drive the marks nuts where they're like, oh, you know,
they take it so seriously and they're going to dissect everything. No,
you're trying.

Speaker 5 (41:45):
You're putting out a DVD. You're ranking a top fifty superstars.

Speaker 1 (41:49):
That's a big deal.

Speaker 5 (41:50):
That that means a lot of people who there's a
lot of people who are going to learn their wrestling
history from that DVD. And you can you can put
a DVD out that respects history, that shows a knowledge
of history, or you can put a DVD out that's
that's a joke. Bruce Mitchell and I on a Bruce
Mitchell audio show on the VIP Side of the Torch
just went over that list one at a time, and

(42:12):
and and broke down for more than an hour, every
single wrestler in order and why politically we were able
to kind of dissect politically why someone was where they
were relative as somebody else. It was a fascinating to
look at the list in that way and instead of
criticizing it, trying to understand where did it come from?
Because it's not like, oh, we just averaged together wrestlers
and they just went based on their childhood memories and

(42:33):
nobody edited it. You know, it's like, well fair enough,
But like you said, Andrew, that doesn't make it any
better if the own the wrestlers don't even know the
own history of their company. But it wasn't it wasn't that,
you know, and and it was it was clearly politically motivated.

Speaker 1 (42:48):
It isn't.

Speaker 5 (42:49):
It isn't a complete coincidence that Hulk Hogan and Rick
Flair are as low as they are. It's not a
political coincidence. There's a lot of those things that that
are there that are just you know, I just if
you couldn't bother to do it, do a decent job
with it. And that wasn't decent.

Speaker 1 (43:06):
It was.

Speaker 5 (43:07):
It was it was alarmingly it just And what's what
makes me wonder is is WWE being run by people
who don't know what's wrong with that list? Because that's
scary anyway. I mean, if you're the head coach in
the NBA and somebody says who's the greatest point guard
of the nineties, and they say John Paxson because he
was on the balls when they won their titles, Well

(43:28):
that'd be an honest answer from somebody who hasn't watched
basketball since they were twelve in nineteen ninety two and
didn't know anything about basketball and thought, well, John Paxson
was starting point guard on the balls, he must have
been the best at the time. But that guy shouldn't
be putting a DVD out if he hasn't like, paid
attention to what actually makes a good point guard. And
that's kind of what we get with that list for
you know, however, you break it down, so I'm I'm

(43:50):
willing to get worked up about it and and yell
at him for it because they should be embarrassed by it.

Speaker 6 (43:55):
It should.

Speaker 1 (43:56):
Yeah, it's a bad set, yeah, and or anything else.
I appreciate you pointing that out though on the show.

Speaker 10 (44:02):
Oh no problem. I actually had a question related to
somethingas talking about earlier about what kind of you know,
between the AWA and the WWF kind of what draws
people into wrestling, and I was wondering what ended up
getting both of you guys into wrestling initially.

Speaker 5 (44:20):
Good questions, probably somewhat similar because we're both from the
same part of the country and basically the same age. Jason,
do you want to answer that first?

Speaker 6 (44:27):
Yeah, you know, I just caught AWA. I can still remember.
I was at a hockey tournament somewhere in Minnesota, and
I was at the hotel and stumbled upon AWA wrestling
and was pretty much cooked. And that kind of grew
to world class when we started getting that in the
area and then UA one of the UA. We didn't
have cable with my household because we lived too far
out out of town at the time, as crazy as

(44:49):
it sounds today, and so my only exposure is WCW
initially was in the form.

Speaker 1 (44:55):
On the internet, was on the internet on YouTube.

Speaker 6 (44:58):
Yeah, you know, I'd like to say that, but I'll
just date myself and admits it was a pair of
rabbit ears antenna and I'd have to put a luminum
foil on the antenna and get the late night worldwide show.
I think it was like Sunday nights. Yeah, there's a
lot of duluth I want to say.

Speaker 5 (45:13):
I think sant Cloud, but you might have gotten the
loot feed of yeah that could be.

Speaker 6 (45:17):
Yeah, I'm not I can't even remember which one. And
then you know, wwe WWF at the time started airing
here and you know, after magazines all the good stuff
and kind of you know, I think pretty much anybody
that came up a fan in the eighties, no matter
where they live, probably had a similar experience. But yeah,
it started local and then it just kind of grew
from there.

Speaker 1 (45:38):
We're about to go to a commercial break. Whyles's end
to commercial breaks when you can go vi ip and
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remove the ads and plugs. For Patreon, ol vip membership

(46:01):
starts at nine dollars in ninety nine cents. Treat yourself
to a streamlined Adam plug free listening experience with a
VIP or Patreon membership. The level of excitement and Jason
covered my mine is similar. I mean I started watching
AWA on television on Sunday mornings because I was flipping
channels and there was Jesse Ventura talking about Turkey Town

(46:22):
one and Turkey Town two, Minneapolis Saint Paul wearing the bows,
and Adrian Adonnas from the Bronx cutting a tough man
promo long before he was adorable. And Burn Gania, who
was this older guy who just had a great smile,
looked like your friendly neighbor and he was a world champion.
And of course Bobby Heenan taking those crazy bumps and
cutting crazy promos and talking about being from Beverly Hills

(46:42):
and he had his debonair. Nick bockwing goal type, Alberto
del Rio, Wadebart type of heel a kind of a
cross between those two and doing his thing. I mean,
it was just it was. It caught the eye of
me at age eight or nine, and I was, I mean,
no more church for me. And then from there, yeah,

(47:05):
world class was I mean, I started reading magazines. I
think I bought my first magazine in nineteen eighty three.
It was a sports review wrestling magazine with the Von
Erics on the cover. And then I started buying magazines.
Every one that came out I bought. And then World
Class Championship Pressing came on, and I'd been reading about
the Von Erics for just a few weeks or months
before that show came in syndication to where I could

(47:27):
watch it, and that was my first exposure.

Speaker 5 (47:29):
To something other than AWA. And I mean that was
five o'clock on Saturdays. I mean, nothing would get in
the way of me watching that show. And then Jason's
same story. When I discovered NWA Wrestling, which I've been
reading about in the magazines, it was super grainy and
the signal frustratingly went in and out. But hearing David
Crockett and Bob Cottle and Tony Shavani and hearing seeing

(47:49):
the Rock and Roll Express and the MiNet Express and
Rick Flair cut promos on that grainy screen, that was
destination television also. And then just before WrestleMania one, with
it a year or two of US Media one, probably
within a year that WWF syndicated and we could start
watching that, and I remember to this day, I was
actually cleaning out stuff, toys and whatever in the basement

(48:12):
and I had the TV on down there, and I
remember overhearing an announcement about WrestleMania and it was coming
on close circuit TV to the Carlton Dinner Theater, which
is now a hotel across the street from all of America,
and that it was going to be available on close circuit,
and I remember being confused about whether they were all
going to be in person, and Wendy Richter and Mister
T and Roddy Piper were all coming to town or whatever.
And then you know, within a couple of weeks, I

(48:34):
had kind of a pretty good idea of what WrestleMania
was going to be. And so that that was kind
of my early exposure to the WWF. And and then
in the late eighties, mid to late eighties, syndication went crazy,
and I mean, you I got to see Continental Championship
Wrestling out of Birmingham, Alabama, Oh God, I mean it
was Florida Championship, Breastlane, Membi.

Speaker 1 (48:53):
City, Windy City.

Speaker 5 (48:55):
That was a little bit later during the when syndication
was starting to phase down a little bit, but yeah,
the Windy City Wrestling I got to see. It was
on delay by I don't know, maybe six weeks, but
it was basically a syndicated one hour version of the
ninety minute show in Memphis that Jerry Lawler and Build
On D booked off and on and Jerry Jarrett booked,
which was a lot of fun, you know, with Lancecorp's

(49:17):
one day Brown hosting in the studio, and I mean
there's just I mean Portland wrestling we got for a
little while. It was crazy, the blocks of wrestling, one
hour after another from all these territories that you could
watch on Saturday mornings and Sunday mornings and then eventually
Saturday night with Miccarsh's Saturday Night at Ringside program where
he would do local cut ins or bumpers in between

(49:37):
the shows. So I mean, on and on and on.
I mean it was that was a really fun time too.
And then it was pretty much during that time frame
that I started the Torch. So that is uh, that's
my that's my timeline and story of how I got
into it.

Speaker 1 (49:50):
Wow, it's cool. Hey Andrew, thanks for the call.

Speaker 10 (49:56):
Yeah, thanks, guys, have a great day.

Speaker 5 (49:57):
Hope here for me again. All right, let's go to
our next call if you want to get on the
phone bank, because we're down to two people on hold
right now.

Speaker 3 (50:03):
Uh.

Speaker 5 (50:03):
The number is six four six seven ninety two eight
six four six seven ninety two eight. So if you
call right now, I'm sure we'll get to the next
fifteen minutes. Let's go to area code eight six five.

Speaker 4 (50:16):
Hey, it's going on. Gut to Stephen from Tennessee.

Speaker 1 (50:18):
Hey, Steven, go do it for me again. What's in
your mind?

Speaker 3 (50:22):
Uh?

Speaker 4 (50:22):
Another mine. That's got a quick question that I'm gotten
quite hard to first because I'm just kind of curious.
I was watching an interview I's going to cross it
on YouTube whatever when they were interviewing Gene Kiniski and
they was talking about, you know, his world towger running
all back, and I just kind of thought it was
kind of interesting how he kind of still treating wrestling
and talked about it. I mean it was early two thousand,
did an interview, but the uh, he treated it like

(50:44):
it was a sport held out how he lost to
uh think it was a Dory's funk.

Speaker 11 (50:49):
Junior I believe he.

Speaker 10 (50:50):
Said that he Dory Funk.

Speaker 4 (50:51):
Now I'm in the famous spitting kill hold or whatever
he said. I just had like and what he's talked about.
He's like, I just had like a quick lense and judgment,
and I thought it was a two out of three
falls match, so I gave up thinking I had v
three follows and then I ended up losing the match
that way. Unless like that's interesting. My quindic question is
where did the change come from? Where you have you know,
the older guys like light bed Koninski's and Lousas and

(51:13):
all that, which you know, wrestling was still you know,
all this was still tree duckid is now where the
finishes were going to be redetermined and all that, but
they still treated like a sport to where nowadays even
you know, wrestlers now like in w Union, even the
TNA to say the word wrestling is like is like
a cuss word.

Speaker 5 (51:29):
Yeah, And that's just been swick Man, And I don't
even think the wrestlers agree with it. They just have
to tow the company line. And the idea of getting
away from the wrestling term is is purely a business
strategy because the category of pro wrestling had a stigma
and it still does to an extent, which is it's
not a sophisticated, high income group of people to target

(51:51):
for television, and because of that, it's hard to get
advertisers to connect their brand with WWE programming. And Vince
McMahon very strategically, I think, at times foolishly and absurdly,
as opposed to redefining what pro wrestling is, which he
has the power to do, has tried to redefine, reclassify

(52:12):
what he does as sports entertainment. And I think it's
distracting and a lot more trouble than it's worth and
isn't going to work. No one says, hey did you
see sports entertainment last night? Everyone's going to say, hey,
did you watch pro wrestling last night? Or did you
watch raw? Nobody uses the term sports entertainment except in
a derisive tone. It's a business strategy. I wish they
just say we are pro wrestling, we're proud of it,
and here's what it is in this era, and redefine it.

(52:35):
I think they would have been more successful redefining it,
redefining pro wrestling, than trying to reclassify themselves as something
that nobody takes seriously. That said, it's been a very
gradual process, Jason, and we watched it happen as fans,
where wrestlers went from trying to keep up the facade
that it was a real competition to knowing you know,
and having wrestlers kind of be like, yeah, yeah, you know,

(52:56):
it's a performance. But the old time wrestlers day, they
had a culture that they inherited from the previous generation,
which was to draw money, we need people to think
these are real fights, and you protect that that secret.
And that's why the World Champions up until really the
early eighties, there was pressure on the World Champions to

(53:18):
be legitimately tough shooters so in case somebody did shoot
on them, they could protect the integrity of the title.
There was some controversy for Rick Flair whether he was
a tough enough guy in real life and had enough
legit credentials to follow in the footsteps of Harley Race
and Jack Briscoe and Dory Funk and Terry Funk and
on and on and lose is the wrestlers who had
legit credentials, who at least up against a neighborhood tough guy,

(53:41):
could defend themselves and not be humiliated while holding that title.

Speaker 6 (53:44):
And I think Buddy Rogers went through that as well.
Ul must be a n H up boy thing.

Speaker 1 (53:48):
Yep.

Speaker 6 (53:49):
You know, it really was Vince McMahon and the WWF
and the expansion and them just taking kind of the
cartoonish approach to it. They still didn't want to pull
back the curtain, but what was the court hearing way
they kind of forced their hand.

Speaker 5 (54:03):
Do you recall, Well, it was a New Jersey Athletic
hearing where Vince McMahon admitted, you know, in an official
basis that they that they were pre determined, and it
was like headline news. It was like, oh, big scandal,
pro wrestling promoters finally admitted. But in reality, I mean,
when that came out, it was I think it was
kind of seen as a story blown a little out
of proportion by the mainstream media people who looked at

(54:26):
it as this big revelation because I think up until
then it was pretty accepted that wrestling was not on
the up and up, and Vince mc mannon had kind
of admitted that in other ways before and in some
of the rare interviews he did, but that was kind
of that watershed moment where it was somebody in an
official capacity telling the new Jersey State Athletic Commission, in

(54:46):
order to avoid regulation and taxes, we're not a sport,
quit treating us like one. And it really was the
big moment in time that that that is referred to
as kind of the turning point, but it was it really.

Speaker 1 (54:59):
I would say that was just.

Speaker 5 (55:00):
One of many many gradual steps that had been going
on for decades really, as as it went from more
legit sports like to more show busy and really, you know,
you can't even make it. You can't even intelligently watch
and not kind of see through it once you get
to age fourteen fifteen sixteen.

Speaker 6 (55:18):
And I think the funniest part is that even though
WWF kind of spearhead of that move, man, it was
they also had the most famous case of a wrestler
denial with David Schultz slapping John stossl on that during
that twenty twenty piece.

Speaker 5 (55:31):
Yeah, well, you know they wanted it both ways. I mean,
there was still a point and we're not really there now,
and now what they don't care if you know that
the outcomes are pretty determined and by the way, every
match gen Kiniski worked it was the outcome is pretty determined.
I mean, so it's great to tell those stories and
weave history and play that narrative, but wrestling was as
work done as it is now.

Speaker 6 (55:51):
But don't tell Er and Anderson then oh.

Speaker 5 (55:53):
God, so they still you know today? They wanted both ways.
They want you to know it's not real for strategic reasons,
but they don't want you to know how. And that
was actually Triple H's problem was tough enough is he
felt that that show gave away too much. It's one
thing for a magician. It's from a magician and opens
the show and says, what you're about to see is

(56:14):
ninety minutes of illusions. We want you to get wrapped
up in the mystery of how it happens and suspend
your disbelief and all that. And I found out the
show that's one thing. It's another thing to say how
I'm a magician. It's all an illusion. And by the way,
I'm going to do the show with my back to
you so you can see how everything is done. And
Triple H felt that tough enough was turning your back
to the camera and showing people how the magic tricks

(56:35):
were done, and he didn't like that aspect of it,
so they still want to have some mystery. Wrestlers will
talk pretty openly about a lot of things, but even
friends of mine in wrestling, there's certain places they don't
want to go on record when it comes to talking
about how matches are worked out, the communication during a match,
certain signals that they use to indicate certain I mean,

(56:56):
there's still a veil of secrecy to a certain extent
on some of the two of the trade, Stephen anything
else before we go.

Speaker 4 (57:06):
Uh No, it's kind of pretty much it as it's
something that kind of cherish, but I've thought it's kind
of interested in the fact that, you know, they sick
man would then get a stended to someone makes fun
of professional wrestling or insults the business, he gets upset
about it.

Speaker 1 (57:17):
I just think it was kind of odds Well, Paul
Bear is definitely yet he Yeah, Paul Bear is dead
and no one's talking about it.

Speaker 5 (57:23):
That's what people make fun of, you know. That's that's
the stuff that people make fun of. An eagle mascot's
selling for a for a leper con and SmackDown, that's
what people make fun of. They don't make fun of
the fact that wrestlers pretend it's real, because other than
you know, some fifty year old and sixty year old
relics out there who have paid attention to wrestling and
grew up, you know, watching in the sixties and seventies
where wrestlers with a straight face denied that it was fixed.
Nobody denies that anymore. So it always it's just so Jason,

(57:46):
you roll your eyes like I do when you read
someone and go pro wrestling here, it's not quite on
the up and up, you know, it's like, Okay, that's
really funny. If it's nineteen seventy eight.

Speaker 6 (57:55):
Yeah, every newscast it ever does a piece on pro wrestling,
they have to remind you that they know it's not
real and yeah, and they're embarrassed to be talking about it.

Speaker 1 (58:02):
Heat.

Speaker 6 (58:02):
Another example of something that he mentioned horn Swoggle and
this soaring Eagle about David R. Kat last night. That was,
to me was demeaning as a wrestling fan to have
this guy out there talking in that stereotypical You know,
if Mad TV or Saturday Night Live was going to
do a spoof on wrestling and it was a bad spoof,
that's the voice they would use for someone doing a promo.

(58:22):
It was just awful.

Speaker 5 (58:25):
I didn't I wasn't bothered as much by by him
as you were. I mean, I thought he was going
for negative feet. I thought we were kind of I
think the way he portrayed, I thought he had lost
his voice. I thought he just had a cold or
something for a while. But I wasn't super bothered by
him because in the end, I don't think he It
wasn't like Hulk Hogan was selling for a Jay Leno armbar,

(58:45):
you know. I mean that that that was horrible because
but Arquette was kept in the role of being a
guest star agitator, Andy Kaufman type guy who in the
end was a chicken and got power bomb through a table.
I didn't have a big problem with him being pretty
had wrestler who fans wanted if he get strangled.

Speaker 6 (59:02):
But I don't think anyone wanted to see him get strangled.
I think they were just wanting to get the hell
off their television because he was so annoying and so obnoxious.

Speaker 1 (59:09):
Maybe so, I don't know.

Speaker 5 (59:10):
I'm I probably differ with you a little bit on that.
I think he might have generated enough heat with there
some satisfaction. But I will put it this way, Jason,
I could very well be wrong on that. Might you
might be one hundred percent right. I was okay with him,
but but I might be missing it too. All right,
let's go to our next call here and go to
er code eight one seven.

Speaker 1 (59:28):

Speaker 7 (59:31):
This is Jimmy from Fort Worth, Texas. How are you
guys doing today?

Speaker 1 (59:34):
Doing good? Jimmy, Good here for you. What's on your
mind today?

Speaker 4 (59:37):
Oh?

Speaker 12 (59:37):
Just just first off, Jason Kudo's on the podcast. Listen
to it the other day and made shopping in Walmart.

Speaker 6 (59:43):
Oh some Jesus, Well, you'll get you. There was a
new one posted today, so if you haven't had a
chance to check that out, it's available at iTunes right
now or at Pro Wrestling.

Speaker 4 (59:53):
Done that.

Speaker 1 (59:55):
Beautiful.

Speaker 12 (59:55):
I will download that as soon as today's live cast
is over, just real quick. I know there was a
there was some talk yesterday about and today probably about
the Shawn Michael's appearance appearances between Raw and Tribute to
the Troops.

Speaker 13 (01:00:11):
You know, we need to make a bigger deal out
of it. It needs to be more special and all
those other type of things. Could it be just because
the fact that Tribute to the Troops is in Fort Hood, Texas,
you know, practically Michaels' backyard. That this was just his
way of doing something that was local. It wasn't something
that was going to really infringe on anything. And it's

(01:00:32):
not him trying to do anything with it. It's just
it's right here in my back door.

Speaker 1 (01:00:36):
Why I do it?

Speaker 5 (01:00:38):
It was a chance for Michael's to do some charity
work and see some old friends without having to go
to an airport. I mean, I I don't I'm not
saying Michaels wouldn't have gotten on a plane if if
they were in North Carolina for Tribute to the Troops.
I don't know that. But I think it was almost
a no brainer for him to show up under the
circumstance and make a cameo and say hi to some people.
He hasn't seen it in a few months, Jimmy, anything else.

(01:01:01):
We're running short on time.

Speaker 7 (01:01:03):
Now, that's good.

Speaker 13 (01:01:04):
I'll tach basically on the things that they screwed up
on Law after I get a chance to watch.

Speaker 8 (01:01:09):
It again tonight.

Speaker 1 (01:01:10):
Ah, right, cool, excellent, we'll talculatter in the week ten.

Speaker 14 (01:01:16):
I'm Chris Maitland and I'm Justin McClelland we host Wrestling
Coast to Coast, where we scour the wrestling scene to
find the best wrestling from the smallest places.

Speaker 15 (01:01:24):
There are thousands of matches happening every week, so Wrestling
Coast to Coast is here to discover the men and
women who could be big time stars in a few years.

Speaker 14 (01:01:32):
There are plenty of podcasts to voters, to w W
and AW, but what's happening in the armories and gymnasium's
local wrestling hotspots around the country.

Speaker 15 (01:01:40):
We can't wait to help you find the true hidden
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Speaker 14 (01:01:46):
And justin bemoaning dog pole fins.

Speaker 15 (01:01:48):
Don't forget my feudal search to see a blue Thunderbomb
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Speaker 14 (01:01:51):
How can I like? The name says we cover the
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Prestige Action, West Coast, Pro, Revolver, and Beyond Wrestling.

Speaker 15 (01:02:01):
Actually, Chris, I think we stick pretty much to wrestling.

Speaker 14 (01:02:03):
No, I mean Beyond Wrestling out of Worcester. Oh right,
Our show's part of the PW torch Daily Cast lineup
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Find full details on the PW torch Dailycast lineup at
PW torchdailycast dot com.

Speaker 5 (01:02:30):
Let's go to the next phone call seven eighty six.
Thanks for holding a calling. Please state your name and
where you're from.

Speaker 3 (01:02:35):
Hey, there's it going on?

Speaker 7 (01:02:36):
Wait?

Speaker 3 (01:02:36):
Is Johnnayson Dallas?

Speaker 1 (01:02:38):
Hey Johnny? How you doing?

Speaker 3 (01:02:40):
Oh quick? I was gonna say a quick thing.

Speaker 10 (01:02:42):
Howbot you've put it up?

Speaker 3 (01:02:43):
My I got hooked on on w W just The
first episode I ever saw was when Triple H and
the whole d X did that spoof on the Rock
and uh, what do you what do.

Speaker 7 (01:02:53):
You walk on addresses the croc.

Speaker 1 (01:02:55):
Yeah, that's what hooked me.

Speaker 3 (01:02:56):
WW that was one of the funniest things I've seen.

Speaker 6 (01:02:58):
In a while.

Speaker 3 (01:02:59):
But besides that, I thought it was a good You
think you can let out Morrison on Sunday to I
have that a rumble between him.

Speaker 1 (01:03:08):
And miss Jason. What do you think I missed that?
What was the what was the question Jimmy stated again
for Jason.

Speaker 3 (01:03:15):
Uh No, I was saying Morris is gonna win that
ladder match for the number one contender against the Miz.

Speaker 6 (01:03:21):
Yeah. I think there's a very good chance he does.
This is an ideal situation, uh, for WWE to work
somebody into the title picture that isn't going to sell
a pay per view on their own. And because it's
Royal Rumble, you know even I guess they.

Speaker 10 (01:03:36):
Could throw a ninety second and.

Speaker 6 (01:03:38):
Put Seamus in that spot and have a heel versus
heel match. Again, Royal Rumble is the place to do
that because you don't need other matches to sell that show.
People buy the Royal Rumble to see the Royal Rumble match.

Speaker 1 (01:03:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:03:48):
I think that's a good explanation and I think that
is the best, the best reason to thank Morrison has
a chance to win it, besides the fact that miss
is the heel champion and I think we'll have the
title by then. Next call Eric code Jimmy think for call,
we're just kind of go quickly through here. In the
final minute, Erico two one to two, give us a
quick question or comment please. That's when as Kenny from
New York City.

Speaker 1 (01:04:07):
Hey Kenny, thanks for calling. Quick question or comment.

Speaker 4 (01:04:09):
I guess I was sent very quickly on So do
you see this as the end of nexus with uh,
you know Toungua right there at the end.

Speaker 5 (01:04:17):
No, No, I just think it's another change in nexus.
I O Tongua may sheepishly talk his way back into
the group, but I think by having Barrett everyone affiliate
with Barrett again, I think it restrengthens nexus and means
they're going to be around for a while. Jason, you
agree with that?

Speaker 1 (01:04:29):
Yeah?

Speaker 6 (01:04:29):
I do you know? We saw everyone else walk off
with Barrett, so he's back in control and O'tonga looks
like the odd man out.

Speaker 5 (01:04:36):
Thanks Kenny for your call off. Final call today Erico
two well three? State your name where you're from in
a very quick question or comment?

Speaker 3 (01:04:42):
Yeah, how're you doing?

Speaker 11 (01:04:43):
Waited tomorrow here from Connecticut. Just got a quick question
when I don't see you guys posting like a link
for this live cast on the main menu, and I
go to blog talk radio.

Speaker 10 (01:04:56):
What's thet when you can.

Speaker 11 (01:04:57):
Find the current day?

Speaker 5 (01:04:58):
Because there's really I'll answer the question quickly. Blog talk
radio dot com. Slash Pro Dash Wrestling dash Torch and
that'll wrap it up for today. I'll elaborate more on
that tomorrow. Thanks everybody for listening.

Speaker 7 (01:05:25):
All right, Jason, thank you for using blog talk radio.

Speaker 1 (01:05:28):
Goodbye, goodbye.

Speaker 5 (01:05:29):
We're now to the VIP portion of the program and
a lot less to talk about. On last night's raw,
the category, the Slammy Award concept. If you're gonna do
a three hour raw, there has to be a reason
for it. They had the Old Timers Show, they had
King of the Ring, they had the Slammys. Which format
of those most three recent formats do you like the

(01:05:51):
most and do you like the least?

Speaker 1 (01:05:52):
And why?

Speaker 6 (01:05:53):
You know? I think the one with the most potential
is King of the Ring, but they don't execute it properly.
So I go old school Raw number one and I
go Slammis last night. I think even the Slammis had potential,
they would just take themselves seriously instead of having the
you know, the O Snap Award and the Despicable Me Award.
You know, why can't this company just take itself seriously

(01:06:15):
and quit doing everything so tongue in cheek.

Speaker 1 (01:06:19):
It is.

Speaker 5 (01:06:19):
Yeah, the Slammis has turned. It's always been that, but
it's doesn't mean that it has to be that way
or that it's the right way to do it, but
it's it's like a Tuesday Night Titans. It's vincement Man's
chance to say, we're sports entertainment. We don't take ourselves seriously.
And you know, it was one thing when the Slammies
was a separate production. You know, it was, oh, it's

(01:06:40):
join us on Wednesday out in the USA Network for
the Slammies. Okay, it's time everyone loosens their tie, and
we just kind of step away from But when you
put it out there in the midst of a show,
when you're trying to sell Johnson against Wade Barrett or
Seamous versus John Morrison or whatever, you you end up
having this conflict where in moment you're supposed to be

(01:07:00):
taking something seriously. In the next moment, everybody's just joshing around.
And I think it is kind of a clash of tone.
And it's something that for whatever reason, Vince McMahon and
and we're the victim of this, has never really it's
never really clicked with him that there's a certain tone
that sells tickets and then a certain tone that maybe
makes you seem more acceptable to advertisers in boardrooms, and

(01:07:23):
you can't mix them over the course of three hours
on a show right before pay per view and expect
people to be worked up about that pay per view.

Speaker 6 (01:07:29):
Yeah, there might be something to that, but you know what,
then schedule it so it doesn't conflict.

Speaker 5 (01:07:34):
Oh, I'm I'm I'm I'm agreeing with your criticism. I'm saying,
if you're good at like to me, I'd rather have
the slimmis be a one hour show before Ross starts,
or you know, like have if you're good, if you're
gonna do the slammies and you're gonna make it slapstick.
If you're gonna do that, then put it on for
an hour before Ross starts. Have it even have it pretaped,
or have it live and but have it at a
at a theater or something like that, and then do

(01:07:55):
a normal raw. I think it's it's doubly damaging. Besides
the fact that I'm with you, I'd rather have straight
up awards. I'd rather have them actually you know, oh,
you know, instead of the old snap type thing like
you say, or despicable me. They're trying to have fun
with it and that type of thing. I get that
they're trying to have fun with that. I get they're
trying to wink at the audience a little bit. And
the Superstar of the Year voting, I mean, it's like

(01:08:16):
big shock. It's John Cena, you know, and but there
was if you're going to give the award to like
Sean Michaels an Undertaker for a moment of the year,
and it deserves it, but then you turn the other
the May Young Lake Cool debacle thing into a total joke.
It diminishes the value of the ones that are a little.

Speaker 1 (01:08:35):
Bit more serious. And so there's just this mix. Are
we supposed to take them siously? Are we not? It's
kind of like the Hall of Fame.

Speaker 5 (01:08:40):
But way worse, kind of like the Top fifty Superstars List,
but way worse. I just think the show should be
split off and be separate. They're trying so hard with
the Slammis to bring people in who are scared to
watch wrestling because they don't people will think they think
it's real, which I just think is so nineteen ninety,
you know, or so nineteen eighty five or nineteen ninety,
and we're twenty years past having to worry about that.

(01:09:02):
That they end up having all these mixed signals and
watering down the money drawing angles.

Speaker 6 (01:09:06):
Yeah, there's definitely something to be said for that. I
feel this the slamming. I think you could do it
during the course of a show. You know, I hear
what you're saying about doing it in the hour leading up,
but I really think you could just keep the set
they have, keep the podium there, and just treed it seriously.

Speaker 5 (01:09:23):
Well, I'm for that too, Yeah, you know, I mean,
there's the only the only reason I want to split
it off is if they do slapstick. If they're not
going to just slapstick, I'm with you, then then they
can weave it into the show.

Speaker 6 (01:09:32):
Yeah, okay, yeah, fair enough. It's you know, we see
it time and time again. They just only take themselves seriously.
It seems like around WrestleMania time consistently they'll have some
you know, a serious program here or there involving you know,
Johnsen and The Nexus for instance, was serious. But WrestleMania's
time is when they start weeding out a lot of

(01:09:54):
the campy comedy. And I don't you know, I mean,
they're obviously going to say, well, it's the WrestleMania, Brann
and the Rumble that are selling this. If you did
all that campiness at that time of the year, watch
those buyer rates crumble. And why can't they be a
little more serious throughout, you know, to twelve months rather
than just for three or four months out of the year.

Speaker 5 (01:10:14):
I agree with you there, and I think when the
seasonal aspect of it is interesting and you bring that up,
you know, it's like, well, now it's time to draw money,
you know, And they should think that way every single months.
Now is the time to draw money. Look at the
way that they treated the Best Move Award, the holy crap,
you know, Move of the Ward. They show all these
crazy moves, but they didn't talk about the ramifications. They

(01:10:36):
didn't put them in any kind of a context. It
was just, hey, look at the stunt monkey do this
flip dive? And I think, you know, move of the
Year should be if you actually treated it more seriously,
it could help draw money when you're trying to sell
a pay per view like TLC or trying to draw
with your product in general. If they had shown those
moves but taken the time to actually talk about what

(01:10:59):
that move meant to that wrestler's career or what that
move did in that match to advance a title, a
title victory or title contention, or take somebody out of
action for a long time. All of a sudden, Now
you're what you're educating your viewers to is these big moves.
They're not just fun to watch. But the more fun
they are they are to watch, generally speaking, the more
dangerous they are.

Speaker 6 (01:11:20):
You know, I kind of staying a little while straying
a little bit off topic. Do you think they were
showing Batista as much as they were last night in
those clips? Because maybe there's something brewing for WrestleMania and I,
I mean, you can't tell me that anyone really thought
John Cena doing the attitude adjustment onto a fricking car

(01:11:40):
was a more impressive move than Randy Orton and Evan
Bourne and that r KO from the Shooting Star Press.
I mean, that was one hell of a move compared
to what Scena did and just kind of made me wonder, Okay,
maybe they're showcasing Batista for a reason.

Speaker 5 (01:11:54):
I hadn't thought of that that might be right. My
interpretation was they're just showcasing John Cena. I mean trying
to stack all the awards in his favor because he's
their their their top star. It could be I'm not
if they were worried about that, you know. I don't
know how they would look at the Batista send off
where he's in the wheelchair and pouting and crying and
doing that. I don't know if that has main event
dignity or if that was kind of more played for

(01:12:15):
laughs on his way out. I'm not even sure that
they look at Batista as somebody who would necessarily help
them draw big by rate at this point. I mean,
he might a little bit, you know, having you know,
if Jericho and Batista return, for instance, it means a
little bit more, But I don't think it makes a
huge difference because he hasn't been away long enough, and
I don't think he was, you know, a Sean Michael's

(01:12:37):
level star where he had that kind of bond with
the fans. So I think it's it's possible, but I
wouldn't necessarily look at those clues and say, I think
for sure they're going that way, because I could see
even if Batista in WW he had no intention of
working together again, they still might have done that just
for the sake of Sina.

Speaker 6 (01:12:53):
Yeah, I just you know, we saw more of him
than I expected to last night. You know, NWWE is
very good at keeping guys they don't have great relationships
with off the show and just with the timing of
it because of you know, everyone assumes that vance Foot
brock lesnar On the King of the Ring because he
is hoping to get him at WrestleMania. It just makes
me wondering. I wait, I really think they're they're desperate

(01:13:14):
right now for something at Mania, whether you know, if
they can't land Lesner or big name celebrity, then they've
got to turn to people like that. You know, I
can see them thinking, well, then we've got to turn
to guys like Batista and trying to get Jericho in
here and bring in as many surprises or big names
as we can. I am very concerned about WrestleMania if
they don't pull off the miracle and get Lesner.

Speaker 5 (01:13:38):
I'm looking at the obvious, the for sure options that
they have barring an injury. And I wrote in the
Torch news letter a couple weeks back, you know, my
possible wrestling lineup based on the pieces that we know
they can use, and I think I threw Jericho in
there as somebody who's probably available, and I mean it's
not it's not great. You know, if they play, if

(01:14:00):
they have played their cards right and said we're gonna
mortgage our TV ratings potentially and keep John Cena out
of the ring until WrestleMania, well then you probably have
a big by rate for that, assuming people don't just
forget about John Cena if they.

Speaker 1 (01:14:11):
Screw up the booking.

Speaker 5 (01:14:14):
But Triple H coming back, I don't know that that
in and of itself feels special enough. They're not gonna
get Sean Michaels back. I don't think they have that
great opponent for Undertaker right now, and something has to
make WrestleMania feel special or they're gonna be in trouble.
And and so then you get to the discussion of
do you try to, you know, get Staying in to

(01:14:35):
make his first and only ever WWE appearance. I mean,
I don't know what other options there are if they
have a you know, Roy Nelson isn't gonna draw. He's
a butterbean type novelty. He's not a big enough mma
start a draw. But I don't know that Batista's the
answer I'm Brocklesner probably would be the answer. But yeah,

(01:14:56):
I don't think the Owls are good to that happening.

Speaker 6 (01:14:58):
I still I won't rule out completely, just some rumblings
I've heard that it's not as far fetched as a
lot of us assume just because Dana White says it's
not going to happen. You know, hey, there could be
a contractual out there that Dana may not want to
acknowledge publicly.

Speaker 5 (01:15:15):
Well, remember what Dana has said is brock Lesner is
not going to fight for WWE. He has an exclusive
fight contract with US.

Speaker 1 (01:15:22):
It frustrates me to no end.

Speaker 5 (01:15:23):
Why won't somebody ask Dana can brock Lesner appear or
perform for WWE? He keeps answering it, and it could
just be his phrasing and he may not think anything
of it, or it could be his clever out in retrospect,
which is well, I never said he couldn't appear for them.
I just meant he couldn't fight for them, So that
could be his out. If he's using his words cleverly

(01:15:45):
and precisely like the Brady Bunch exact words episode, I
want someone to ask him. Brock Lesner has an exclusive
fight contract with you. We get that, Dana White, But
can he make a special appearance? Can he be a
special referee? What would stop him from sitting at ringside
and being a special guest or maybe being a guest
ring announcer. You know, just throw absurd things out there.
How much is he restricted contractually from getting a payday

(01:16:07):
from WWE for doing something other than a legit one
on one fight.

Speaker 1 (01:16:13):
Anytime you're watching WWE Raw or SmackDown or aw Dynamite
in particular, send us an email if you've got thoughts
on the show or a topic you want us to
address or a question for us. Wadekeller Podcast at pwtorch
dot com. Wadkeller Podcast at pewtorch dot com. If there's
anything else going on in pro wrestling that you want
us to address on our main podcast during our mailbank segments,

(01:16:36):
that same email applies Wadekeller Podcast at pwtorch dot com.
We invite that interaction. Let us know what you think
of what we're saying, and let us know what you
want us to talk about and ask us specific questions.
Wadkeller Podcast at pw torch dot com.

Speaker 6 (01:16:52):
Yeah, it would be nice if somebody would ask him
that I don't know, he may say no comment and
move on.

Speaker 5 (01:17:00):
Yeah, he'll he'll look at you and give you a
look and go, you're you're pretty clever. I'm not going
to call on you anymore when I'm trying to hide something.

Speaker 6 (01:17:06):
Yeah. It's kind of like we wish people, you know,
instead of asking wrestlers the steroid question that always came up,
if they'd ask about performance enhancing drugs and the whole
exact wording deal.

Speaker 5 (01:17:15):
Or you know, or just ask John Cena, do you
consider pure testosterone prescribed by a doctor to be steroids?
And or does the fact that it's pure testosterone and
that it's a prescription for a diagnosed low production naturally,
does that make it okay to take massive amounts that
helps you look like, you know, a human, human sized

(01:17:36):
action figure. Wait, that's what I want someone to ask him,
because he just says, I'm not taking steroids, and I'll
take a steroid test. But then his if his testosterol
levels came in off the charts, he'd go, oh, that's
not a steroid. That's a prescribed medication for my doctor
for low TI.

Speaker 6 (01:17:49):
Wait. I was tested two hundred times in twenty ten,
and I never failed a wellness test. I'm guessing that
would be his answer.

Speaker 1 (01:17:55):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:17:56):
Yeah, And it takes somebody educated enough to the tricks
of the wording to know what counter, what follow up
question to ask. But there's a reason WWE typically over
the years doesn't leave themselves available for follow up questions
such as that. But I mean, if they have nothing
to hide, I think that if they have nothing to hide,
I think it would be better for them to be

(01:18:16):
more open and leave themselves much more open to hard
questioning and make themselves more available. I mean, it's the
fact that they don't means you and I have this conversation.
If they did, and they had nothing to hide, you
and I would have a different conversation that I think
WWE would like better.

Speaker 6 (01:18:32):
Yeah, and this is we're definitely straying here. But it's
not just wrestling. I can't believe that as much access
as NFL writers and just sports writers in general have
to athletes, no one's asking about a test conser own
issue or an HGH issue in the NFL or the NBA.

Speaker 1 (01:18:51):
I mean, come on, yeah, I know, I know.

Speaker 6 (01:18:54):
If they ever came up with that test, the average
size of an NFL player would decrease overnight. It's just
ridiculous that everyone just flames wrestling. And oh, you know,
the NFL's got a great testing policy. And you know
the funny thing is, is you hear about guys NFL
players that have gone this is just one example of
their their you know, stringent marijuana testing and all this

(01:19:17):
here that players go into like wrestling shows and yeah,
this guy's got great weed. And it's like, well it
was the positive test and round that that never happens.

Speaker 1 (01:19:27):
Yeah, yeah, well, okay, getting back through a couple more
things on the three edition, the fan Direction of the Year,
and they brought Angry Demon Girl out. I was thought,
you know, she got famous enough. He was an internet
sensation as we now say that. I thought it was
pretty cool that they flew out for the show and
got her on the show. I thought they handled it okay.
She seemed really shy in the crowd, seemed to be

(01:19:49):
ready to go hostile on her, and MS came out
interrupted just in time to prevent that from happening. And
I thought mis handled it in a way where she
probably won't be scarred for life. And I assume a
decent amount of prep work is done ahead time to
let her know, you know, hey, you're my pal, We're
just going to go out there and act and that
type of thing. I wonder, as a nine year old girl,
how much of that, you know, made sense to her,
because clearly she was still at that mark stage of

(01:20:11):
kind of believing what she was seeing. But I thought,
all in all, it was probably an experience she could handle.
It was probably handled. Okay, yeah, you know what.

Speaker 6 (01:20:19):
Though, she deserve to be scarred for life because that
face she flashed to scarred me for life. I have
dreams about that girl on that face that's just disturbing.

Speaker 1 (01:20:28):
Oh it is.

Speaker 5 (01:20:29):
It is a disturbing look, I mean that, and then
reproducing it. She was actually able to reproduce it pretty decently,
but it's not the same as when it was just
genuine emotion.

Speaker 1 (01:20:39):
That truly.

Speaker 5 (01:20:40):
Truly, if somebody, if somebody like right now showed up,
she showed up outside my window and shot me that look,
I think I would just like disintegrate.

Speaker 1 (01:20:48):
I would go poof, yeah.

Speaker 6 (01:20:49):
I'm with you too. Nothing scares me more in life.
I think that when it comes to horror movies than
like Little Girls ever since the shining and those toilets.
Always if I see the today, you know, I can
watch it, no problem, But every time I see those
girls that just get the willies, that can't help myself.

Speaker 5 (01:21:05):
Yes, and she was quite good at it. I've bet
there a lot of people watching roll last night who
don't watch SmackDown, going, man, I don't remember that. I
don't remember that. I don't remember that, and there wasn't
really any time to discuss, you know, to recap people.
But I think maybe it made some people who don't
watch SmackDown think maybe I should watch SmackDown. I feel
like I'm actually missing out on a decent amount. It's

(01:21:26):
not like I still can't believe WWE doesn't do a
more a better job with with synergy between Ron SmackDown.

Speaker 1 (01:21:34):
At this point, I mean, it just blows my mind.

Speaker 6 (01:21:36):
Yeah, I agree that there's no reason for it now
that there's no reason they can't, you know, and right, yeah,
maybe that should improve a little bit next week. But
I just have this bad feeling that even if it does,
when they promote SmackDown, it's going to go right back
to usual. There's nothing. And oddly enough, I felt like
big show and Raymus Jerry. Especially when they came out
on Raw, they felt like a bigger deal than they

(01:21:58):
ever do on SmackDown Fresh to that brand. But at
the same time, I was left a little bit frustrated
way because it's like, yeah, it was cool to see
Mysterio in the miz, but it's m point to are
they ever going to learn their lesson and maybe try
to keep some guys separate and not just give their
matches away in the middle of a show.

Speaker 1 (01:22:15):
I know.

Speaker 5 (01:22:16):
I mean it's such a short term booking mentality. I
mean there's so much that Vinsic Man. There's weeks where
you just go, man, Vincent.

Speaker 1 (01:22:23):
Man's a genius.

Speaker 5 (01:22:24):
I mean he he's got this all figured out. And
then there's other weeks you watch and you're just like
what what God, how did he think that was okay?
Like how does he not see the step back for
a minute and see the ramifications of this? And like
I say, I think sometimes decisions are made where Vince
is conscious of the downside and it's a tough choice

(01:22:45):
and he grits his teeth and he does it because
he has a bigger picture in mind, and so part
of making as many decisions as Vince does every week.
Sometimes means you got to choose between two bad choices,
and you take the lesser of two evils and even
and then you leave yourself open everyone criticizing you or
doing something stupid. But what he would argue is, well,
I had a choice between that stupid thing or this
stupider thing. So give me some credit for at least

(01:23:06):
not doing the thing that was stupider. That said, filling
a three hour show and continuing to do these three
hour shows to satisfy USA Network and being scared to
put enhancement matches out there, being scared to have longer
wrestling matches, being scared to take a more serious tone
that'll sell your pay per view. It ultimately is undercutting
the long term health of USA Network because WWE is

(01:23:27):
weakening their product. It hurt TNT to have Nitro Beyond
for three hours instead of two. I don't care about
all the arguments that people make about, oh, you can't
turn down those ad dollars. Yeah you can. If by
accepting those ad dollars, you're going to go out of business,
And same with Thunder being out at the TVs. WWE
is hurting themselves by having this many three hour shows

(01:23:48):
without the content to support it, or without having shows
that at least don't do what you're talking about, which is,
you know, putting these these matches out there and having
them not feel special or overexposing what should be a
special circlestance.

Speaker 6 (01:24:01):
Wait, we've railed on this show for almost ninety minutes.
Now pick out a positive and I'll do the same.
From last night's rock pee Wee Herman, Oh god, I
thought he was terrible.

Speaker 1 (01:24:12):
No, I liked him a lot.

Speaker 6 (01:24:13):
No, he just kept repeating himself. But it was like
that promo should have been half as long and it
would have been fine. I like Pee Wee two, but
he just started Even Jennerko tweeted that today too. After
he put up my end list, I was laughing, going good.
I thought I was going to be crucisst daring to
mock Peewee Herman. But yeah, I.

Speaker 5 (01:24:30):
Thought if I didn't think it was awful. But but
your criticism makes sense. I think I just have a
I have more. I'm a bigger fan of Peewe than
I guess. Then my patience is longer for him doing
perhaps a mediocre act than yours. But I thought when
he goes, I'm available again, and he goes, is that
the phone?

Speaker 1 (01:24:51):
Like, I don't know. He cracks me up.

Speaker 5 (01:24:53):
His timing and delivery is good, Okay, a little bit
more serious. One thing I liked, and it's a small thing,
but I liked it is Shawn Michael saying I don't
miss the job, but I missed the fans.

Speaker 1 (01:25:04):
Again.

Speaker 5 (01:25:04):
It's not not a big picture storyline thing, but I
like that. What he said is, don't feel bad for
me if you're a fan. I don't. It's not like
I went out kicking and screaming. I'm happy to be retired.
But at the same time, my bond with you was
special all those years, and I do miss you. And
I thought that showed. That showed a pretty good level
of perspective on when you leave, how to pay tribute

(01:25:27):
to the fans and make them feel not so bad
about the fact that you're not around anymore.

Speaker 6 (01:25:32):
Yeah, I agree, and anyone who you know. The callers
alluded to it earlier about criticism over the way they've
handled Michael's coming back. What were you going to hype?
There was nothing to hype there that was well done.
And I'm the first to say if they bring them
back actually in the building on TV. Yeah, you make
a big fuss over but when you've got a short
video clip that's nice surprise material, that's not let's go

(01:25:53):
overboard and hype this stuff. As far as my one
positive goes, I'm going to go with the facts that
mixed it up. Musically, I thought, from oh yeah, auction standpoint,
it was, you know, they as much as we tend
to overanalyze creative and everything else at times, production bian
Larsh does a great job. And I thought some of

(01:26:14):
the video packages they did last night were great, and
I just liked that it was a more diverse selection
of music. They had that the song that was used
for the sock Monkey commercial and the Rocks movie Faster
they and then they had that the p Diddy song,
And you know, I mean, it's not even my genre
of music. The odd thing is that, you know, I'm

(01:26:34):
complaining about them playing music from the genre of music
that I tend to listen to. But I think it's
wise for them to try to open it up a
little bit and try to reach out to different people
rather than just the people who only like hard rock music.

Speaker 1 (01:26:48):
I agree hund percent.

Speaker 5 (01:26:49):
I think they that the tone of the Slammies with
the voiceover lady who was doing the introductions a cool,
cool set, you know, the odium was cool. The way
that they emulated the Oscars without making an obvious spoof,
it could have been a serious production. And then the
video packages and the way that they did that it
shows that ww we actually could. Well, it's the same

(01:27:11):
team that does a Hall of Fame, you know, and
in the Hall of Fame has done brilliantly and this
rot of touch of the Hall of Fame to it
and it they could have done all that right and
still had repetitive music in your right. The diversity of
music was a plus, and I think it's it's something
that that they should continue to do and try to
find ways to work different types of music into It's like,
you know, Drew McIntyre's music stands out or stood out

(01:27:33):
when he first had it because it had a different
pace and a different tone to it than what you
would expect from you know, Edge and Randy Orton and
Caine and Triple H and that kind of thing. So yeah, good,
good observation there. I loved Vladimir's come back to Santino.
I thought he's he's good at delivering that dry one lighter.
When Sentino gave him a hard time about mcgruber humiliating him,

(01:27:53):
and he said, I'm remember I'm reminiscing about that, and
then vlad shot back, I am reminiscing about the about
you know, well, his delivery is way better than mine,
which is why I'm complimenting him. I can't reproduce it,
but I'm reminiscing about destroying the person who made fun
of the made fun of mcgroover making fun of me,
basically forecasting that I'm going to destroy you if you
keep doing this. And I think the dynamic between Santino

(01:28:15):
and Vladimir is good. It plays into what we said
about TNA. When they're trying to be the comedy Hour.
That's enough. Like just Santino and lad having a little
dynamic with each other, that's it. There should be nothing else.
Don't try to be funny, do you're not comedy writers.
Don't do anything else, and then that'll stand out. But
when they're out there with tons of other people doing that,
it's just as bad as when they have tons of
chairs and tables and ladders.

Speaker 1 (01:28:36):
It just ends up.

Speaker 5 (01:28:37):
The tone ends up being screwed up, and it ends
up watering down, and you're gonna have to a lot,
a lot more flops than successes in that situation.

Speaker 6 (01:28:43):
Yeah, I couldn't help but watch that show last night
and feel pity for the people who spent presumably a
lot of money to sit in the front row, only
to have a ladder put in front of them the
whole night.

Speaker 5 (01:28:55):
Yeah, yeah, I make a refund.

Speaker 1 (01:28:59):
I know. Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:29:00):
I don't know how I would feel if I was
very excited and anticipating for two months having a great
seat and someone puts the ladder right in front of me.
I've had some bad seaside biking games, but at least
I knew I paid less for the ticket and knew
what I was getting. Sure, Yeah, Jason, I got to
wrap up a little bit eli to day because there's
an annual townhouse meeting for my association, and they moved

(01:29:22):
it from Mondays to Tuesdays because of me. So I
need to be sure that I'm there on time.

Speaker 6 (01:29:28):
You have eight minutes to get her if it's at
the top of the hour.

Speaker 5 (01:29:30):
Show it's not, but I have to have a little
dinner first or else I will be I will make.

Speaker 6 (01:29:33):
Kennedys much more good luck with Acton.

Speaker 1 (01:29:36):
I thanks a lot, Jason, thanks already for listening. I'll
be happy Jason Powell, this is Wade Keller signing off.

(01:29:59):
I invite you to email the show with feedback or
questions or comments. That email address is Wadekeller Podcast at
petwtorch dot com. That's Wadkeller Podcast at PW toorch dot com.
Also welcome your feedback on Twitter. You can follow us
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Wadekeller That's at PW Torch and at the Wadekeller.

Speaker 16 (01:30:22):
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