15 YRS AGO LIVECASTS: 2010 Torch Fantasy Draft suggestion, Jericho "retirement" storyline copout, Christian's injury, Kofi upside

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
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(00:21):
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Speaker 2 (01:06):
Now, PW Torch and Spreaker bring you the Wade Keller
Pro Wrestling Podcast.

Speaker 1 (01:15):
On today's Way Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast, we jump back
fifteen years to back to back episodes from September twenty
fourth and September twenty fifth, twenty ten, beginning with James
Caldwell talking with live callers about tnampac from the night before,
Rob n Dam's return, the lack of vision for TNA's
product Goldberg in WWE, what Cope Kingston needs to become

(01:36):
a top star, future w B stars over the next
five to ten years, some predictions they're interesting to compare
to what actually happened, Also Eric bishaus involvement in TNA
and more.

Speaker 2 (01:45):
And then in the.

Speaker 1 (01:45):
Previously VIP exclusive after show, Pat McNeil joined him to
answer some VIP forum questions on what would happen if
Kurt Engel had gone to MMA after the ninety six Olympics,
plus Christian's injury and potential replacements in his spot on
the roster X title switch at the house show of
the night before, the value of titles and more. And
then the September twenty fifth episode features Bruce Mitchell joining

(02:07):
me to talk with live callers about raw was the
time to hit the panic button regarding the ratings, Chris
Jericho's I'm a Heel tweet regarding his quote retirement, storyline, stipulation,
ideas on how to spark out to be raw following
the ratings drop below three point zero, Christian's major peck injury,
preview of the twenty ten Torch Fantasy Draft, Matt Hardy
and Shane Helms, Gregory Helms down on the youth movement

(02:31):
and more So, let's get to it. These are our
latest fifteen years ago PW Torch live casts on the
wait Keller Prog Wrestling Podcast, looking back at what we
were talking about fifteen years ago.

Speaker 3 (02:41):
This week, you're listening to the PW Torch live cast.
This is PW tors Assistant editor James Caldwell posting today
on Friday, September twenty fourth, twenty ten. I'll be flying
solo today for special home our live cast. Today. We're

(03:02):
gonna take straight phone calls for half an hour, so
if you want to go ahead and jump on the
phone lines and give us a call, the number is
six four six seven to one nine eighty two eight.
And I'll quickly highlight some news on p tob tours
dot com. Just posted impact ratings and viewership and reaction
viewership last night. Last night's shows impact down to one

(03:24):
point oh from a one point one two last week.
Reaction was also down to the lowest viewership in the
seven week series history. Also brief history so far, so
that information is up. Also a lot of other stories
in the news house show reports from Europe and Oklahoma
for WW ANDT and A, respectively. So let's go in

(03:44):
and waste some more time. Let's go to the phone
lines and let's go to two eight one area code
two eight one. Welcome to the show, please station in
where you're from.

Speaker 4 (03:53):
Hey, it's Jay ad Houston. How you doing today?

Speaker 3 (03:55):
Good Jay, let's flow out today? All right, I have.

Speaker 4 (03:59):
A question in my goldbergs WWE runs.

Speaker 5 (04:02):
Sure, okay, okay, Like as we've discussed this week, a
lot you know, Triple.

Speaker 6 (04:08):
Ah have a lot of input over a lot of well,
let me say, a lot of.

Speaker 4 (04:12):
Influence over who over who he would job the world
he wol a championship to and and as we all know,
Goldberg wasn't really committed to the business. My question was
why was he given the world title? But but Booker
T and hy Van.

Speaker 7 (04:28):
Dam Now we all know rv D was clearly.

Speaker 4 (04:30):
And qualified the Holy title, but but Booker T was
much more dedicated. So why did Goldberg get the nod?
And he wasn't even a full time employee. Why did
he get the belt instead of someone else they could
have given to anyone else.

Speaker 3 (04:46):
Yeah, I mean I think Goldberg coming in he had
he had named value coming to WWE, Uh, it was
kind of that time when they were trying to bring in, uh,
you know, big name stars and and and utilize them
from from w c up you or from I mean
to Lester Exton, East w guys like Team three D.
That was before the whole the merger and all that.

(05:06):
But you know, Goldberg had named recognition. They were trying
to capitalize on that. Booker had named recognition. But when
he was champion w SEB kind of near the end,
that's you know, kind of woe with Jeff Jarrett had
those title runs at the end of w CEV. Goldberg
was at the end as well, but he was he
was hotter during the Attitude era boom period during during

(05:28):
sort of sort of at the peak of that Attitude
era money that wars, Goldberg was one of the top stars.
So he had named value more than a Booker t
And I think also, you know, kind of coming into
w W from w CW with Triple H that was
a little bit of a you know, you might have
been a big deal in w CW, but you're not
as big of a deal in WW. So there's a

(05:50):
little bit of that that that process that that they
go through it when new talent comes in. Especially when
Triple H was on top, that was just sort of
the the process that was up for better or for
worse than WW.

Speaker 8 (06:06):
I got a little little follow up, and I did
notice that during the overse Hold W run he only
lost to one person, and then we all know that
if only one person penned the shoulders to the mat
that entire time.

Speaker 3 (06:19):
But enough about that, My question is.

Speaker 6 (06:22):
About Kobe Kingston. Now, Koche he's not ready for the
main event yet. My opion is he needs a main
event type finisher. He needs to cut more promos, and
he needs to talk about what it would mean to
him to be a world champion. That's what do you
think he needs to do to assert himself? I mean,

(06:43):
I mean, I mean besides all the behind scenes stuff
and just letting it be known he wants to get
up to that main event level.

Speaker 3 (06:50):
But what do you think he needs to do to.

Speaker 6 (06:52):
Get the fans behind him? What like they did Austen
because nobody really comes out and says, hey, look, I'm
not plays.

Speaker 4 (07:00):
I want to be champions. I want to be the
world champion.

Speaker 3 (07:03):
It was the likes to support me.

Speaker 9 (07:05):
What do you think he should do?

Speaker 3 (07:06):
As far as that, I think he's just gotta be
on TV more. It's just it's just a longevity thing.

Speaker 10 (07:13):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (07:13):
To me, it's just being accepted by I mean, if
you think about it, wn B goes from one town
to the next, and usually they'll go to the same
town once or twice a year.

Speaker 11 (07:26):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (07:27):
And if that already and sees you as a sort
of mid card level guy when you came to town last,
and then you're a main adventure the next time w
B comes a town, Okay, well he looks like he's
moving up. Okay, I've seen him on TV. He's been
doing some more things that seem important on SmackDown. I
need to see more, though, And then he comes back

(07:48):
to the next you know, the next six months or
nine months loop and he's still may even seen. He's
more accepted. To me, it's it's just amnt of longevity.
I like what he's doing with the promost recently, the
more serious promos, the the work he's been doing Doll Ziggler.
I like that they're slowly building towards something like you know,

(08:09):
they can push him to the main event seen eventually.
You know, the knock against him is always a high flyer.
He does fancy moves, he doesn't do he doesn't wrestle
a main event style naturally. He's more of a sort
of a mid car high flying act. That that's kind
of knock on him for better I don't agree with
that necessarily, but that's sort of the knock on him

(08:29):
in WW. Also, you know, he's not big. He's a
mid sized guy. It's kind of about the same size
as Kobe Road see him Punk Christian. You know those
guys who you know oftentimes are overlooked because their size.
So I think he's just been a longevity for Kobe,
continuing to be more serious, continuing to look like he's

(08:50):
having a fight in the ring. Oftentimes, watching him the
ring looks like he's just kind of going through a performance.
At times when he kind of flies around and he
he kind of sets up moves where it doesn't look
very natural. It takes you out of that moment for
a second. So he's just gotta he's just gotta clean
up a little bit more things, just build out longevity. Uh,
And I think eventually he'll get a sniff in the

(09:11):
main event. It's just it's just time. With a lot
of things with WW, it's just time. It's years as
a process, especially when they're not red hot as they
were during the you know past eras. So it's good call.
Jay appreciate that discussion. Hey, let's go on to the
nine two five area code nine two five. Welcome to
the show. Please say jam.

Speaker 9 (09:30):
Where you're from.

Speaker 12 (09:32):
Hey, this is Dante from Bay Area, California.

Speaker 3 (09:35):
Hey, Dutie, what do you have for sit?

Speaker 9 (09:38):
Not much?

Speaker 12 (09:39):
Actually kind of interesting, almost sort of a follow up
to that last question.

Speaker 9 (09:45):
In a sort of general sense.

Speaker 12 (09:49):
I was thinking about like the cornerstone of the WW businesses,
like you know, the face of the company, like today
being John Cena.

Speaker 3 (09:58):
In the past being like the Raw or Hulk Hogan.

Speaker 12 (10:02):
And I'm thinking, just I know Sina still has a
lot of longevity within him, but I'm thinking, like after Sina,
is there a possibility of, like who do you think
would be like the next cornerstone of the business. It's
just been a curiosity of mine recently.

Speaker 3 (10:25):
Yeah, that's a good question. I think Randy Orton comes
to mind. I want to see how he fares as
baby Face Champion now that he has the title. He's
only had one of the baby Face run and it
was one of the worst baby face runs I can
ever remember in the two thousands, when he just turned
face because Evolution dump him from the group. I don't

(10:46):
think there was a reason to turn face at all.
That was terrible booking. So I'm very interested to see
how he does as a face champion and whether that
audience stays behind him or if or you know how
how to respond him over time, especially if he has
a long run. Orton comes to mind. I mean the

(11:07):
run of the point, I mean go ahead, yeah, to
just someone else.

Speaker 12 (11:11):
I'm thinking, like I was thinking Orton too. But I'm
curious about, like say, maybe like five or even ten
years down the line, if we've got some of the
some of the greener guys that are on the roster
right now, maybe somebody from NXP but no names come
to mind for me, But do you think there's anybody
like kind of in the mid card or just starting

(11:33):
out these days that maybe five ten years down the line,
you see, might have potential to take that next step.

Speaker 3 (11:43):
Alberto del Rio comes to mind, just because again it's
hard though, because they did shoot him kind of right
to the top on SmackDown if you do with raymus Tereio.
But someone who's I guess someone in FCW right now,
maybe someone that we gotta look.

Speaker 13 (11:59):
At on on an XT.

Speaker 3 (12:01):
I mean, Husky Harris comes to mind is someone He
doesn't have him in every everything, everything about him does
not scream may venture, but there's just something about him
that he's got that that hit factor that if WBS
figure out how to market him, he could be a
top fight heel who eventually kind of turns into what
what what TNA had with Samoa Joe, which was that

(12:25):
guy who just beached people off as a cool array
of moves where you get behind him, you say, yeah,
kick that kicked out guy's butt and you get behind that,
and it's kind of what TNA had with Samoa Joe.
That could be Husky Harris for five or ten years
kind of establishing himself as a heel first and then
the audience gets behind kind of like Randy Orton, how

(12:46):
he established himself as a heel and the audience said,
you know what, we like this guy. Now, Harris comes
to mind. I don't know about Joe Henning caval if
if w B really got behind him over time, He's
had so much and it's just a matter of whether
w B gets behind him or if they continue to say,
you know what, he's not that credible because he is

(13:07):
he's short, and he's small and and all the things
that they knock people for. So, you know, Ausky Heroes
comes to mind. That's kind of a staff in the dark.
But uh, you know, Joe Henning, I'm not sold yet
after that. Tyler Black, you know, Tyler Black comes to
mind is someone who wants he develops a promo style

(13:27):
that fits wn B. He has a size. I think
he has a pretty good look. He can work obviously
from his Ring of Honor matches. Uh so, Yeah, Tyler
Black comes to mind as someone who if he goes
through the system and comes out okay and not broken
down or not not beat down by the w W system,
he's someone that could I could see. Yeah, Tyler, and

(13:48):
and Husky Harrison and perhaps Joe Henning, Heykamal, those are
something that I would that come to mind and within
reason could be future stars for w B. Yeah, any
other question to follow up? Don't they.

Speaker 12 (14:03):
Just a really quick comment and follow up about like,
you know, I just find it almost counterproductive to to
really not push, like say, the smaller guys like the
Kovi's of the Cavals, just because in my experience of
watching it seems like on a grander scale, they seem
like better workers than a lot of the big powerhouses.

(14:26):
With very few exceptions, of course, but that's just something
that I've noticed, And that's a hold that'd be great.

Speaker 3 (14:34):
Yeah, great call. Appreciate that. I agree with you that
it's sort of the the bias for you know, whether
you agree with or not, the biases toward the bigger
wrestlers that that's just always been inherent in ww It's
a big man territory that turned into a.

Speaker 9 (14:48):
Big man promotion.

Speaker 3 (14:50):
But yeah, I mean the smaller guys. I mean, I
don't even like to use smaller, just a not at
the same heavyweight size. You know, if you were to
break it up into visions, you get a middleweight division
or light featherweight or light heavyweight or whatever you want
to call it. That doesn't mean is there any worse
or any and not worse. That doesn't mean there any
less of a fighter than Triple H or Batista or Goldberg.

(15:13):
It's just they're different. That doesn't mean it's a bad thing.
So good call, Good call, Dante. Let have you on
the show.

Speaker 1 (15:21):
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(15:42):
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Speaker 3 (15:52):
Let's go to the three one four area code three
one four. Welcome to the show. Please take your name
of where you're from.

Speaker 13 (15:58):
Hey, thanks for checking the call.

Speaker 14 (15:59):
James Dan from Saint.

Speaker 3 (16:00):
Louis, Hey, Dan, what's going up to say? Not a
whole lot?

Speaker 15 (16:05):
I got two quick.

Speaker 14 (16:06):
Comments, one serious and one not so serious. We'll start
with the serious one. My first thing is I just
listened to the live cast yesterday with regarding Wade Keller
talking about how Eric Bischoff was willing to go all
the way during his WCW days, and I just thought
that was kind of an interesting contrast to where now
you have TNA that it seems like they've build a
lot of bridges halfway over and they don't really want

(16:27):
to finish anything because they're too concerned about having a
lot of things going on to try to, you know,
to try to keep wrestling fans interested the whole Ben
drews Off WOSSI of you know, twenty things that to
be going on at once or else, somebody's kind of
puts the channel. So my first question is, what is
it that you think that made Eric Bischoff becomes so tentative?
Is it, you know, having Ben Drusso, isn't it in

(16:47):
his ear having failed with WW previously, maybe being scared
in that way. I mean, I know there's a lot
of factors here, but I thought maybe you could narraw
down a little bit.

Speaker 7 (16:56):
James.

Speaker 3 (16:57):
Yeah, I think with Bischoff, he he's kind a point
in his career and in his life where he has
so many other projects especially the TV show. I'm saying
that the TV production company with Bishoff Ferve and they
have a lot of projects and that's sort of where
most of his professional emphasis is. And with wrestling it

(17:17):
I just I don't feel like he I don't feel
it's it's as big of a priority to come into
TNA and and spend twenty four hours a day thinking
about what they can do to change the company and
make it better. And uh, you know, he comes in there.
He's just kind of a consultant. You know, he'll take,
you know, review with Russo and Ed Conway and the

(17:37):
writing teams come up with and he'll say, you know what,
let's just take this, let's change that. But he's not
he's not applying a unique vision like he had in
w CW. And he talked about this with Wade and
in the torch Stock he did last year. He sat
down when he became w WW president in the nineties,
he wrote down, Okay, what is w to be doing?
What can we do better different? What can we enhance

(17:59):
our pro to do to make it better than what
w W is doing? And and with TNA, he's just
kind of come in there and he's got one foot
in Vishoff Hervey, he's got one foot in UH and
T and A. It's just, you know, he doesn't have
complete control. And this is what I've also heard him
say over the years, which is he either wants complete
control or he wants no control. He does not want

(18:21):
to be in the middle. That's kind of where he
was in WWE. He did not want to be just
a guy in management. He wanted to either be just
a character or he wanted to complete control.

Speaker 10 (18:31):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (18:32):
And so he's kind of in the middle right now
where he does not complete control. He does not have
his own vision. He's helping a lot behind the scenes,
mainly tweaking and end up with promos. But I just
I just don't feel like he's applying his own vision.
It's more what Russo and Dixie's vision is for the
product right now. So that's kind of where he is

(18:53):
right now. Does not answer your.

Speaker 14 (18:55):
Question, Yeah, that's and that makes sense. And I mean
one of the things is I don't really want to
believe on Dishoff here by any means, because I mean,
it seems like it's a team. I've heard and I
remember hearing on an interview a while back that he
was really more of a creative consultant at best than
an actual, you know, lead booker. So I mean, I
know TNA kind of keeps that whole booking situation under rest,
but you know, it makes kind of hard dependent wame

(19:15):
on you know, just one person. But my other comment,
by not so serious comment, is given this whole storyline
with Undertaker and Kane and Undertaker losing his powers and
you know, throw the choke slam the last time at
Norton Id of Champions and he kind of crumpled to
the floor. Almost what do you think are the chances
that he gets inductive to the Hall of Fame before

(19:36):
Hell in the Settle gets the Hall of Fame ring
and chokes flams being through the ring.

Speaker 3 (19:43):
Uh, that'd be funny. It's not gonna happen, that'd be funny.
Uh Yeah, I mean the whole thing is sort of
it's just this mythical storyline, and they've always been able
to kind of walk a fine line on the the
mythicism and then the fancy tricks and the little things

(20:04):
that they do with you know, Kane's looking in the
mirror and Undertaker's there in the mirror. Oh you know.
So we're gonna see a little bit more of that
on tonight's show with a night Champions fallout with the
big development in that storyline feud. So I imagine it's
just a way to plug sci fi. That's just my
theory is they're moving to sci fi, so of course

(20:25):
let's bring back the Kane Undertaker Magic Tricks show. That's
my theory on it. But that does bring up an
interesting thought on when he might be inducted into the
Hall of Fame, and that's something that might be worth
exploring the blog. So damn good time to bring up.
Don't have time to get into that two months right now,
but definitely something to discuss on a future live CAFT

(20:48):
and probably blogging about it. So good call. Appreciate that.
Let's go ahead and go to Let's go to the
five to five nine erea code five to five nine.
Welcome to the show. Please stick your game where you're from.

Speaker 16 (20:59):
Hey, this to Steve from California.

Speaker 3 (21:01):
Hey Steve, what do you have for say?

Speaker 9 (21:03):
Hey?

Speaker 16 (21:04):
Well, last night on TNAH, Dixie was at the commentary
and she was saying that that the surprise is not
really a surprised as much as it is a change
and we'll start seeing that change at.

Speaker 9 (21:17):
The ten to seven show.

Speaker 3 (21:19):
Is there still any idea what that might be. I've
mashed around and all I've heard is that it's it's it's. Oh.
I'm trying to think of how I can a word
this because I was told a lot of stuff off
the record that it's I just don't know how much

(21:41):
I can disclose. I don't know specifically what it is,
but I've kind of been told, I've kind of been
it's gonna alluded to me that it's just a thing. Yeah,
kind of like a like a not even a production change,
kind of a a look and feel type change. You know,
It's not it's not gonna be a person. It's not

(22:03):
gonna be I mean, I mean, we have the report
that Mickey James is gonna be making her debut on
Octomber seventh, So that's not the change, uh the change,
you know, the change it's just gonna kind of be
how to show looks and feels. And the way I
was told is that a lot of average years might
not even recognize it. So that that's just that's just

(22:24):
kind of what I can say based.

Speaker 10 (22:25):
On what I know.

Speaker 3 (22:27):
Uh, again, this gets to a lot of things I
say about TEENA, which is that I don't see anything
that's gonna add a A or I don't see anything
of this change that's going to create a unique vision
for that product. You know, if they're going to you know,
it's not gonna be we're gonna go to a sports
field or we're gonna go to a complete sitcom where
there's no ring. You know, it's not one of these

(22:48):
drastic changes where you get a sense of what they
are right and you know it's in the light.

Speaker 16 (22:54):
Then why announce a change if if they say that
some people might not even notice.

Speaker 3 (22:58):
It, because I think it's aiming me. You know, it's
aimed at hardcore fans. You are going to recognize it.

Speaker 11 (23:06):
And all right, back on the air.

Speaker 3 (23:10):
I've had phone problems all day today with my iPhone.
So that's the sixth time a call isn't dropped today. Uh,
it's just insane.

Speaker 7 (23:18):
But I hopefully get I was I was hoping we get.

Speaker 11 (23:20):
Through half an hour without losing a call.

Speaker 3 (23:22):
But all right, maybe we watched he so hopefully I'm
still in the air. I have no idea if I'm
still in the air or not.

Speaker 17 (23:28):
But let's try the Uh, let's go be four one
five here four one fire.

Speaker 11 (23:32):
But you're on the year with.

Speaker 3 (23:32):
Us, Yes I am, and it dropping from Francisco John's glass.

Speaker 7 (23:39):
No much.

Speaker 3 (23:39):
I just want to talk t NA last night and
uh whip where do you see? Uh says Christian just
got injured with the pectorial muscle. But do you see
uh brother the Rio cats getting into it now? Because
that was supposed to be a good few for a
little bit to get you know, up the rio over.
So what they gonna do with that? Who's gonna failure

(24:01):
in Christian spot?

Speaker 9 (24:02):
Now?

Speaker 3 (24:03):
Good question? Uh, that's actually uh, that's a good question
because I'm gonna plug that in the VP after show.
Pat McNeil and I recorded UH and after show that
be available for towards v IP members after h the
live cast today, and we discussed that and we talked
about some potential uh wrestlers who can still in those slots.
I imagine Kavall kaval is someone who I would like

(24:26):
to see feudist at Del Rio. I think that'd be
a very intriguing feud.

Speaker 13 (24:29):
Uh be very interesting, just gonna see.

Speaker 3 (24:32):
The contrasts and styles. Del Rio has developed a sort
of a slow it down type rustler. Kaval is more
of a speeded up So I thinkna make for a
good contrast in the Ring.

Speaker 7 (24:42):
I hope Cabal is that guy.

Speaker 3 (24:43):
I hope Kaval is the one who gets Christian slought
work with del Rio and just being elevated to the
main event. So yeah, I think he's a pick. I
think uh Koching, I think koch would be a good
take after the zigular feud seems to be over. Yeah,
those are two that I have. Did you have anyone
else in mind? Johnson?

Speaker 9 (25:02):
Oh?

Speaker 3 (25:05):
I know, but h with TSA uh like they did
the whole uh Rob van Dam and uh abys view
really early in the show, which really made no sense
when you could have did that as a you know,
a pretty much at the end type of deal, you know,
to make them fans wait. They just pretty much threw

(25:27):
it out there, and they really did make no sense
for r VD to even be in the Rings the
way that the way they presented him, and they might
want to keep them off the MIC because that was horrible. Yeah,
I mean to me, that's something you want to save
for when you're gonna focus completely on RVD in his return.

(25:47):
I just you know, sometimes I just don't know what
they're doing, you know, with where they book uh, with
the way they reintroduced characters or even introduced characters save
RV for after Balls for glory. I mean, do you
really need to come back and have that match with
the biss at the paper? I understand why to do
it it. You know, it's the biggest pick review of
the year. We want to have our best matchups. Well,

(26:09):
we put a lot of the time and investment in
RBD versus Abyss. Uh, so we're gonna put that match
on our biggest pay per view. To me, the book
has been so terrible. It is that you have the
title Jerman going on at the same time as rbody
is coming back from the the injury, the life threatening injury. Uh,
and just the way he sells at Uh. That's a

(26:30):
whole other topics. But why why why put those two
stories together. You don't need to do that. It's overkill.

Speaker 9 (26:37):
Wait for after the pay per.

Speaker 3 (26:38):
View and have RBD come back when you get set
up a dedicated feud. And like you said, John, it
just feels so rushed.

Speaker 17 (26:46):
And uh, I don't know.

Speaker 7 (26:49):
To me, watching that show and watching.

Speaker 3 (26:51):
Reaction last night it came a Colossia company that is
trying to find the next big storyline twist. You know,
at the beginning of the year is forth, it was
Khovin was their fishoff, And then it was Montreal screw Job,
and then it was RVD comes in, and then rbdy
wins the title and then it's locked down, and then
there's a bass and wolf and in all that arrest nonsense,

(27:11):
and then it was I guess what was the Safter
that it was EV two point zero comes in. Then
I mean, if you have Tommy Dreamer, then you have
EV two and then you have to view, and then
you have to pay review and now you have you know,
Abyss destroying RMD. Now ourbody's off TV. It's just it's
one thing after another that they're trying to find a
short term pop to pop interest in this product, and

(27:34):
along the way it dan developed no vision for what
they are doing. I got the sense last night that
on the tail end of another one of their short
term pops, UH trying to build toward a crescendo to
down for glory. But I don't get the sense that
anything matters. It's just that it's like a show that matters,
and I don't feel from building toward anything that's gonna

(27:55):
last in the long term have to bunt for glory,
such as a frustrating show. I just don't get the
sense that there really are they really are going anywhere
with this product. Though. Good call Johnson, We're gonna SQUI
some more phone calls. Let's go to chew one to
oh eery CODEQ and O. Welcome to the show. Please
teach you name all your crumble.

Speaker 7 (28:13):
Hey, this is Cameron from my Austin, Texas Jennifer Molson.

Speaker 3 (28:17):
I will be going there tomorrow, see little Texas.

Speaker 7 (28:20):
I might see you at the game. We probably won't
recognize each other though sounds good, though't know.

Speaker 3 (28:24):
Yeah, there'll be one hundred thousand other people wear an orange,
so right, yeah, I'll be quick. Let me first.

Speaker 7 (28:31):
I think you said it great by saying CNA is
not looking for the next big storyline and looking for
the next big storyline twists, and that's.

Speaker 3 (28:38):
Yeah, a big problem that they do.

Speaker 18 (28:40):
I know.

Speaker 7 (28:41):
I spent a good twenty minutes last night trying to
explain to somebodies who don't really follow wrestling what reaction was.
And I think I'm still trying to just it's kind
of there really.

Speaker 3 (28:51):
Yeah, but uh no.

Speaker 7 (28:52):
But my question is, and I actually asked this on
the East Coast cash so yesterday, what do you think
about Legendary coming out? Uh, coming out on DVD a
month after it hit theater? How bad is that?

Speaker 3 (29:05):
I mean, they set up expectations for that, because they
talked about, Oh, we're gonna try to shorten the windows
and we're gonna go from the theater the DVD pretty quickly.

Speaker 9 (29:15):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (29:15):
I think maybe they recognized that they had a a
stinker of and of an idea and they're trying to
sell it in advance and then hope that expectations wouldn't
be too high when the movie comes out.

Speaker 9 (29:28):
And I mean I thought it was an okay movie.
It wasn't great, but the box office numbers were horrendous. Uh.

Speaker 3 (29:34):
He's been for a limited release and it's just bad,
not even cracking soon undred thousand after two weekends. Gosh.
So I think they were trying to get that out
in advance and trying to sell this vision for their
new their new for their new sort of strategy for
these for these movies. It is it is sounded sort
of sad and I think they try to do damage

(29:54):
control early on by explaining that vision ahead of time,
just so when it looks so bad when they're going
st the DVD right away. So good call Cameron, looking
forward to the game tomorrow, hopefully all bump Indian. Let's
go to the two one nine here you coach two
one nine, Welcome to the show. Please say jam where
you're from?

Speaker 10 (30:10):
Hi?

Speaker 19 (30:11):
This is shame from Indiana.

Speaker 3 (30:12):
Hey, Shane, what do you about?

Speaker 9 (30:13):
Seven?

Speaker 19 (30:15):
I have a comment about the deep well question. Actually,
do you think the WW is getting a little bit
carried away with the with the four way matches and
the six peck matches and the elimination chambers. The team
that every main event yeah, has been has rested each
other already numerous times. Yeah, I mean it just seems
like they're all over exposed.

Speaker 3 (30:36):
I agree with completely. And and to give her the
plugs of the after show for v happy members Peter
me Torch dot com, stashkovie p. I mean you know
what I talked about that, which is, what are some
upcoming fresh matchups? They could Buila Tory WrestleMania, uh one
might be orning his and that that's all we came
up with because they have burned through all their top
stars against each other, triplation and shame that you can

(30:57):
do a return match there, but uh yeah, they've through
so many of these matches, especially the sixth way where
everybody's kind of match up against everybody. It just I
think it really defeats the purpose of building toward mini
vendors in the same ring together with a title on
the line or a big garudge on the line, A
six five, We're going to squeeze you in real quick.

Speaker 9 (31:14):
Give me a quick question or comment.

Speaker 10 (31:17):
Hey man, next team from Tennessee.

Speaker 9 (31:19):
I was just wondering, do you think one of the
things that's missing and wrestling.

Speaker 20 (31:21):
Is like this big match field with all these three
or four ways and like six pack challenges like.

Speaker 3 (31:26):
Straight up yeah, definitely. I think the lack of individual
hyph for individual matchups hurts wrestling. It hurts the value
of seeing top stars of opposite each other. Totally agree
with that. DNA is it more often recently so I
agree with that. I could thow the clothes on TV
towars dot com live coverage of Smackdowns, and I thinks
for joining us in tune in on Monday.

Speaker 21 (31:49):
Me an extra dose of positivity in your wrestling podcasts.
Will come join me Alan fourrel Over in the Progress
Paradise at Penweorch VIP as we mask on the right
side of wrestling and focus on some of the great
matches and shows from around the world, be it the US, Japan,
Europe or Mexico. There's always a place for wrestlings past

(32:11):
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such as the We Love Liger series celebrating the glorious
career of Jusian Thunderliger and our eye was there when
shows where our guests will join me to talk about
a classic bout that they were in attendance for. We
love variety and you can expect lots of it at
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(32:34):
a list of all the VIP benefits is available at
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Speaker 17 (32:59):
All right, We are now in the Torch v I
p after show following today's live, I'm joined by Sorts
Calmness Pat mc neil at what's going on? Say, ah,
not much, Hello you people.

Speaker 13 (33:19):
We're gonna we're gonna do this slightly unlike the way
that a couple of other people who do podcast do this.
We're going to admit that I am not avoiding you people.
I actually have to work nights and uh. As a result,
James has very graciously agreed to pre record this earlier
on Friday afternoon. So yeah, just I'm not I'm not

(33:41):
trying to duck questions or anything like that. I just
want I just want you to do that, Okay.

Speaker 3 (33:47):
Yeah, definitely have the the VIP mail bag and the
Patent Neil Zone and the towards VP form. So we're
gonna start doing this opening a weekly basis. So if
you want to jump in the tapman Neal zone and
drop a question uh in there, we'll try to discuss
that and answer your question a weekly basis. They want
to encourage everyone to visit that in the towards VIP form.
But what do we have the first question today?

Speaker 13 (34:09):
Well, our first question today comes from Eprin who's from Phoenix, Arizona.
He says Hi, guys, explain to me the TNA studio audience.
They're not a crowd or fans or a god. I
don't know what to call them. I know, whenever they
start chanting or a plotting, I feel like I'm looking
into the apartment of Three's company. They feel like a
true studio audience to me, a flood when the lights
go on, chant, laugh, blue at any given breath, and

(34:31):
preach to everyone that their show has the rest of
development intellect and no one else gets it. Seriously, I
don't know what to think of the studio audience live crap. Okay,
Well that's I don't know if that's really a question, James, Yeah,
I mean they're they're the part of studio audience too.
That However, the TNA fans in Orlando, they don't really
behave like a true studio audience, at least at least
not in the way that at least not in the

(34:53):
way that TNA wants them to. They don't they don't
laugh in the right places. They you know, they root
for the wrong people, that sort of thing.

Speaker 22 (35:00):
Uh.

Speaker 13 (35:00):
Yeah, they just they seem happy enough to be there, though,
you know.

Speaker 3 (35:05):
Yeah, it's such an odd mix and you know, I
was there in Lambo in July, and yeah, my main
thing was to try to figure out this crowd and
who who who makes up the Impact Zone audience and uh,
to me, it's a it's half of just the same
regulars who have their own little clicks. They have their

(35:25):
own sort of groups and chants, and they do things.
They chant the same things, and they cheer for the
same guys.

Speaker 10 (35:33):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (35:33):
And then you have the tour and still have no
idea what's going on, and they just kind of pop
for whoever JB tells them to pop for, and they
boo whoever JB tells him the boo. It's a very
orchestrated uh. Proceeding that that JB kind of runs and
he'll he'll set up the matches and he'll remind the
audience and why this person is the heal and why
this person's face or supposed to be oftentimes does not

(35:56):
be clear. But you have and then you have the
the regulars who want to not go with the flow,
who want to kind of do their own thing because
they have their favorites, and those usually just one to
the loudest because the tourists are just kind of sitting
there just watching the spectacle. You know, they thought they're
gonna go see family few they end up in the

(36:17):
Impact zone and they're just whoa, whoa, who what what's
going on? Uh? So it's it's just this odd mix
of people who you know are there to get themselves
over and look cool on TV because they're gonna be
on TV, and they're on TV every single week. It's
just it's just a real unique I don't think productive.

(36:39):
I don't think it's productive to be in an impact
zone to get a sense of how your audience is
taking the product. And I hear Tena say, oh, it's
such an organic reaction from the crowd the impact zone.
I just say, that's the biggest little crap ever. There.
There is no organic reaction in the impact zone, because
that's not add.

Speaker 13 (36:56):
You know, they're frust because the people who are actually
putting these together are frustrated at the audience. Many of
them are not doing what they want.

Speaker 3 (37:04):
So exactly, yeah, and that that was definitely the case.
Now for the one of the observations that I had
been at that taping, uh in the pay per view
in July, it's just, you know, there is more organic
reaction in that place and they've seen everything. I mean
I remember doing interviews with TEENA rests as five years
ago or four years ago, and they said, Alliance have

(37:26):
seen everything. So you had four more years of Russo
booking how much you know that's so much more jaded
that that hardcore fan base. I mean, I don't I
don't know if you consider the fans not paying money
to go see it, they're just showing up.

Speaker 13 (37:38):
Well, there are fans and that they're they're showing up.
I mean they could be going to other parts of
the park or other free attractions, or staying home or
something like that, but they're there. So now I can
I can buy that. Yeah, I mean, that's that's the thing.
It's it's it's a weird mix and uh you know,
I mean it's not like it was in the nineties.
Eric Bischoff when he thought, you know, Impacts Zone and

(37:58):
and and Universal Studios is probably thinking, oh, yeah, I
remember we we heard it people in from that Disney MGM.
We just we just grabbed people and brought them inside
and uh, they sat and we take a few matches
and they cheered it when the applause sign went up,
and then we heard them out and brought them the
next group for the for the next hour of TV
because they didn't want you know, because they didn't want

(38:21):
to have regulars there.

Speaker 3 (38:24):
That's gonna be the disadvantaged team that has is that,
you know, it's hard to get you know, it's hard
to fill nine hundred people there just you know, it's
kind of people walking around Universal studios. Hey, come see
a wrestling show.

Speaker 13 (38:37):
A lot of you want you want people there who
want to be there. But yeah, but that sort of
limits it.

Speaker 10 (38:45):
Yeah, I can't.

Speaker 13 (38:46):
I mean, if you want a simple explanation, I can't
do it.

Speaker 3 (38:48):
Basically, Yeah, I don't think there is one. Yeah, and
it's it's uh, it's just it's hard when you're you're
a show is filmed in front of a studio audience,
you know, a w SEWU word line like you're talking
about the w w world Wide audience and basically what
they're filming in front of and that's your a show.

(39:10):
To get any type of genuine reaction, uh, and create
that that genuine emotion on your on your a show,
that's really difficult.

Speaker 13 (39:16):
And well, yeah, okay, let's let's take it into perspective, James,
because you know the nineteen eighties, I mean World Championship
Wrestling uh n W A World Championsiprestling was taped in
any studio on Techwood Drive in Atlanta, and and you
know the people, and it was tape usually on a
Saturday morning before Saturday night. Uh you know, let's play

(39:38):
back on Saturday night. And the people there, they always seemed,
you know, grateful to be there. This this was a uh,
this was a big deal. You sent in you know,
it was like trying to appear at the prices right
tape and you send in your ticket requests and they
invite you down and you know, you get to sit
with a couple of hundred people in the in the
bleachers and and see all your favorite wrestlers up close
and personal. Right that's uh yeah, I mean it's different,

(39:59):
and you know, maybe they need to move move it
around some and uh, I know Ring of Honors moving
their TV tape things. They're doing a couple of Louisville
for pretty much the exact same reason. They feel they're
their crowd in Philadelphia is getting jaded. So I mean
that's something they can look at night. And I I've
heard that they're going to try to do, maybe split
the tay things between Orlando and Nashville, which will help
them a little. But I don't know. I mean, it's

(40:21):
it's tough. I would think, you know, taking in front
of a crowd like that would be challenging. That they
take the challenge the wrong way, you know, you would
think that you would think that you would try harder,
and that's not what DNA does sometimes, or they try
hard on the any wrong ways instead of you know,
the way of putting on better shows.

Speaker 7 (40:41):
Right.

Speaker 3 (40:42):
Yeah, the booking obviously as a factor there. So yeah,
agreed on that.

Speaker 13 (40:46):
All right, Well, we've talked about this too much, so
I think we should go to the next question. All right,
let's see this is market who has known on the
message board has click for Life twenty eight Wow, Marco
has an interesting uh take care you go with TNA
now apparently using match time limits with having a clock
counting down the remaining time in match like UFC make
more sense so that there isn't anywhere to come from

(41:09):
almost like Hardy versus Show and Hardy versus Angle. Well,
I mean there's you remember when they started Impact on
Fox Sports that they did on a.

Speaker 3 (41:20):
Fox in the Fox box yep.

Speaker 13 (41:22):
And I liked it, and and of course they got
rid of it as soon as they could.

Speaker 3 (41:26):
Uh yeah, yeah, it didn't. They only did that because
they were on Fox Sports and they wanted to make
this new show seem more like a sports show, and
so they had the time limit and gave it more
of a sports view. Once they're out there, then you
go back to what they really wanted to do, which
was not to do a sports show. Yeah. I mean

(41:46):
to me, it's just you've got to be consistent with
how you announce a time limit. It's either you either
explain that every single match that's non titled as a
ten minute time limit, every single match that you know
I using whatever number you want. But uh, every max
that has title implications, either number one contender match or
an actual title match or a tournament match for a

(42:08):
vacated title, has a twenty minute time limits. And if
it's not pay per view, then you know it's they's
thirty minutes, and that's your you're built in clock that
the audience knows, they know what the clock is. You
don't have to flash it on the screen. JB doesn't
have to announce to the crowd. You just know, and
if they're consistent or that, then you would avoid these
sort of issues. But you know when they arbitrarily just say, oh,

(42:28):
well this match for no reason at all other than
we don't have a way to book around it. You know,
we don't have a finish that our finish requires us
to have some sort of time issue. When when I
do it arbitrarily, it just it just I don't even know.
It's just it's just a mess.

Speaker 7 (42:44):
You know.

Speaker 3 (42:44):
It's it's inconsistent, it's it's lazy booking. And it's not Yeah,
I mean an siation everything you've done before, then.

Speaker 13 (42:51):
Well it is lazy booking, man. I mean, you have
to have the disciplines who not only h you not
only need somebody actually would the stop watch following the
mat is it helps to do like well, like n
W A or WW did in the old days. You know,
ten minutes gone by in the match, there are thirty
five minutes remaining until timeline. But I'll tell you what that.
You know, having done this on the indies, that helps

(43:12):
the people in the ring. They're generally like, oh, though
we're ten minutes in, this is probably where we wanted
to be. Right now, let's it's yeah, ten minutes in,
let's go to a finish, or it's five minutes in,
let's start working this spot. I mean it really helps,
especially for young wrestlers. I think it's something that should
be standardized and and if it only if it only
leads to it, and if you only do a time
limit draw, like two or three times a year, we'll

(43:34):
ring a Bonnor did one on their big pay per
view and it fell apart because it pant hated it
because they didn't read the audience.

Speaker 10 (43:40):
Well.

Speaker 13 (43:41):
But you know, if you do it it just just
two or three times, it becomes a big part of it.
It becomes a big storyline, and it's something that that
sort of happens opens itself up organically. Or if you
or if you or if you do your old you
old stand by and this match is going to TV
time remaining and you off the air and the bells

(44:01):
ringing and they're still fighting. I mean, that's a that's
a good way to end the show.

Speaker 3 (44:05):
It's a good close thinger for the next show. Yeah,
that's yeah, that's and that's worked. So yeah, I think
it could work out.

Speaker 13 (44:11):
Yeah, So yeah, I'm a fan of that.

Speaker 1 (44:14):
We're about to go to a commercial break. Why listened
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Speaker 13 (44:47):
Second question from market is what impact, if any, would
there have been in MMA and WWE if kurd Angle
went to UFC or Pride following winning his gold medal.
Now kerdanngle Wants went to gold medal in eineteen ninety six,
and uh, you know, MMA wasn't nearly as popular then
as it is now. I mean there were still still
were showing it and sports bars already, but uh, you

(45:09):
know it was it was more of a curiosity people.
You know, people were still accusing it of being faked
and they and the rules were different. They they didn't
have rounds, they didn't stand guys up. So yeah, I
think Kurt Angle would have been a big star going
into UFC. And you know, maybe he I mean, maybe
he becomes the Ken Shamrock. Maybe he becomes a guy
who wins the UFC title and then goes back into

(45:31):
wrestling and does it that way. And I mean, would
Angle has been have been a successful well yeah, maybe not.
I mean, Angle was by all accounts a natural learning
this business once he finally got into it, you know,
would I mean, would it would have helped na? Yeah,
it probably would have eventually once once once people saw

(45:53):
that Angle was involved and doing well. But I mean
we don't actually again, I'd like to think he would
have done well, but you can't actually tall for sure,
Kenyon James, No.

Speaker 9 (46:02):
You really can't.

Speaker 3 (46:03):
And and my question to meet to you, I mean,
do you think that it would have uh sort of
expedited m m A and UFC's acceptance, as you know,
it wouldn't have been to the level it is now obviously,
but do you think it would have sort of sped
up the process of MMA being accepted by the mainstream
having kurd Angle, you know, involved with that, with that

(46:25):
spore in the brand right off, right after they live
the Gold Metal Victor, do you think it would have
helped out?

Speaker 13 (46:31):
Yeah, I mean it could have. Then again, you know,
Kurt Angle might have might have torn a muscle in
his first mm A match, or Dan Severn could have
tapped him or something like that. But yeah, I think
I kind of would have helped. There's just too many
variables involved in But I can't play that kurd Angle
would have been as good a professional wrestler as he
had been if he had started in the mm A first.
I don't think that's likely.

Speaker 10 (46:52):
Yeah, it was.

Speaker 3 (46:54):
I mean on the topic of whether it was said
that he never went to WWF or ww you know,
I don't know how much of a big difference it
would have made. I mean, he obviously he was valuable
during the Attitude Ero, you know, the programs with the
Rock and in Triple H and Steve Austin. I just

(47:14):
I imagine they could have found someone else to kind
of have that spot. But he did bring a certain
he brought something to the table that kind of helped
in that era. So I mean, kind of within it
made a big difference, a small difference. Do you think
if he was not, if he never went to WWS, WWE,
and if he never was involved in top programs with

(47:35):
top guys without it without have made a big difference.

Speaker 13 (47:39):
It would have made a difference. There, there's no way
of telling how big he He sort of got in
on the end of the one wrestling was really hot.
I mean, he was a he was a player during
two thousand and two thousand and one, a major player,
And I mean you can argue, even with all of
his problems, that he could have been the guy WWE
built around instead of Triple H a couple of later,

(48:00):
although that wasn't happening. Let's just let's just back there
right now yet. Yeah, I mean, it would not have
been a It might have changed some things, but you know,
I mean, you were inevitably going to get from WWE
to UFC, especially with w W a down cycle creatively
and not seeing interested in building new stars, and and

(48:22):
then nobody else, you know, the people underneath them, Stephanie McMahon,
Triple H probably probably not as not saying it as
important as it should have, and Vince not taking your
developmental and yeah, I mean I think we would have
gone this way eventually.

Speaker 3 (48:38):
Yeah, there might have been, like you said, some some
you know, different variables all the way that would have
affected where we are right now in terms of how
dramatic the difference might be. Uh, But I mean I
don't think. I don't think kurd Angle is. I don't
think Kurdingle by himself would have made a big difference
if if you want a complete different direction and what

(48:59):
would what history shows, or if you would have gotten
him in a first and and maybe not done so
well and then gotten to w W.

Speaker 10 (49:07):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (49:08):
You know, I just don't think that he was that
big of a figure to affect sort of the direction
of two different sports and two different brands. Yeah, you know,
it's just so much efference on a brand, especially in
wrestling now that you know, like I said, I think
somebody else could have filled that slot, maybe not as
well and in terms of what he brought to the table,

(49:30):
but you know, I did you know, it wasn't like
it was Steve Austin.

Speaker 10 (49:33):
The rock.

Speaker 13 (49:35):
And yeah, the whole brand thing was inevitable once uh
you know, I mean once uh, once Stins took over
the business, because and then it even started before that
because you like, like Garry Kapetta said in his book, Now,
I mean talk to Shane mcmam what's the biggest lesson
you've had taught you? And and young Creatine Chaine mcmamsays,
never let your wrestlers know how much you need them.

(49:57):
I mean you know, I mean, I mean, I mean, yeah, Thisnce, uh,
you know this wanted to get away from wanted to
take away power from the wrestlers and and.

Speaker 3 (50:09):
Versus Hogan battle that's way thirty years.

Speaker 13 (50:13):
Yeah, well McMahon was gonna outlast. Yeah, I mean that
wasn't clear. That wasn't clear. But h but now it
is so.

Speaker 3 (50:22):
Very good. I give him a remind everyone to drop
an email or a question, uh that we will have
Pat in Iowa answer on the air, hopefully a weekly
basis here in the VIP after show, so you can
go to the Torch VIP forum, go to the Pat
McNeil zone, and the listener mailbag thread is right at
the top for easy access and dropping your question. So, uh, Pat,
before we go, let's talk about a couple of other

(50:44):
topics in the news in the last twenty four hours
or so. One big story being Christian and he's going
he's went down with with I guess the pictorial muscle tear.
Had surgery on Thursday. Likely I'm not out for the
rest of the year. Likely out about you know, five
to seven months or so in that range. What do
you make of this? I mean, Christians not really a

(51:06):
guy who's gone down with a lot of injuries during
his crazyman, you know, somewhat durable and uh, depending on
the band in the ring. What do you make of this?

Speaker 13 (51:14):
I mean that that's just the law of average is
catching up with you in this business. I mean, you
know you can. I mean you can. I mean you
don't have to do anything high risk necessarily, but you know,
you know eventually the bumps and the wear and the
tear are going to are going to take or you know,
they're gonna happen. So we're in what late September, five
to seven months. He's probably looking to come back in

(51:34):
time for WrestleMania. I don't know if that's uh the possibility,
but I mean it's part of the bigger story, which
is you know, w WE not having the U, not
having the depth on the upper mid card and uh,
you know they're they've been relying on guys who've been
around for a while and maybe haven't been treated like
top stars. And this is you know, this is another one.
I mean this, this is another guy that you know,

(51:56):
he's there to have good matches with people on SmackDown
and now he can't.

Speaker 3 (52:00):
Mm hmm yeah. And you know, it's also to me,
it's an indicting of the schedule and just the lack
of I don't know, I don't know the details on
how this injury came about, if it was a you know,
freak accident or whatever, but the fact remains that these
wrestlers are worn down. Just the cycle of the yearly

(52:20):
the yearly schedule, you're going to get worn down. You
don't have proper time to you know, let your body
rest after you know, taking bumps in the ring and
then having to work out in the gym to maintain
your physique. Inevitably, without that proper rest time, your your
muscles are gonna be stretched, your body's gonna wear it down,
You're gonna be more susceptible to injury. And you know,

(52:41):
you don't know the specifics on what caused this, but
I'm not surprised even for someone who's been as durable
as Christian is.

Speaker 13 (52:47):
What I mean. That's that's I will chalk it up
as a as just one of those things that happens
in wrestling. You know, injuries happen. That's Uh, here's the thing.
If you're the McMahons, you can say, Okay, you know,
wrestlers get injured, that's the cost of doing business. But
if wrestlers get injured and you don't have anybody to
replace them with because you have, you know, because you've

(53:08):
been trying to do this on the cheap and you
don't really have a develop a good developmental system, then uh,
you know, then then there you are. And I mean they,
you know, they wanted to turn out new wrestlers for
this NXT show, and it became pretty obvious pretty quickly.
They you know, if they if this was if this
was going to keep going on, which fortunately it's not.

(53:28):
They don't have enough for season three and season four
and season five unless they go and get some guys
who have you know, who have been successful outside w
W A and therefore do not work the w W style.

Speaker 3 (53:41):
And then you got to reteach them. And then and
then Michael Cole has to rip them all over again.

Speaker 9 (53:45):
Yeah, it's a whole problem.

Speaker 3 (53:46):
It's a whole cycle. It to Daniel Bryan Cabal thing,
and I mean, yeah, I don't know. I mean, do
you think pact there will be another season of NXT
or you think the show is done after this monstrosity.

Speaker 13 (53:59):
I I really doubt it, and and I hope not,
because there was potential for a show around, you know,
around giving a generation of young wrestlers a you know,
a shot, and and and making stars out of them.
But I mean that was that was the purpose of ECW.
At least I thought, you know, you'd get some young
guys over, and they did that. I mean, you know,

(54:23):
I mean getting rid of E c W and and
bringing an NXT is now looking like a really dumb move.

Speaker 3 (54:28):
Yeah, I mean, part of it's just it's, you know,
it's it's not an hour of TV that w W
really puts a lot of emphasis on in grand scheme.
It's on sci fi. It's kind of it's a little
bit later. It's it's not a destination point. It doesn't
have you know, nine hundred episode history like Raw does.
It doesn't have a decade like SmackDown.

Speaker 13 (54:48):
Okay, and you can say all that, James, But you
know the biggest problem is if they're not putting on
anything that anybody would want to watch. That's why you
get a zero point eight this week. I mean, if
you want to watch wrestling, if not there. If you
want to watch you know, entertainment variety type stuff, it's
really not there. If you want to watch you know,
girls running obstacle courses, well some of that's there. But yeah,

(55:10):
I mean, and and their PG so they can't they
can't do all the all the smutty stuff. So you're nowhere.

Speaker 3 (55:17):
Yeah, yeah you might as well. Yeah, you're caught right
in that a really bad gray area to be in,
which is or you're kind of what Bishop always says,
you're not fish nor foul. It's you know, that's show.

Speaker 13 (55:29):
That's a very good idea. That's a good way to
put it.

Speaker 3 (55:33):
Yeah, and who are you appealing to? Well, who knows,
you know, I mean other than the sort of trying
to appeal to the internet audience. But that's that worked out.
It hasn't worked out, you know, I mean, it's it's
not going to work out. It's just such a just
an unbearable show to watch, made less unbearable by Sam

(55:55):
Bunk this week.

Speaker 13 (55:56):
You know, made less than bearable. But the fact that
you know people now they're so sour on it, they're
just going out and making fun of the idea. And
I mean that's stamp and and Vin has to sit
there and pretend that it wasn't his idea to begin with, right,
whether he didn't sign.

Speaker 3 (56:11):
Off on it, yeah, he was forced to do it. Yeah, yeah,
I mean the talent depth issue definitely, So I'm glad
you brought that up that that's the one of the
top two stories come out of this, is that now
you have another steady hand in the ring of a
veteran who has star power, uh with you know, most
of the audience recognizes that connects well with the audience.

(56:33):
Now he's out.

Speaker 11 (56:33):
Of the picture.

Speaker 3 (56:34):
So SmackDown, which it already has depth issues because they
have so many guys right there at that second level
without really much elevation, uh just have not been elevated recently,
have not had a chance to be in that main
have been picture kind of that that Cody Roads, Dolls Zigler,
Kofi Kingston, Andrew McIntyre, those group of guys who are
you know, solid, have you know, decent to pretty good personalities,

(56:57):
but aren't in that may have been picture, not to
say Christian was. But uh, you know, who's someone that
can that can be moved up? I mean based on
W's hand sort of being forced into moving somebody up. Uh,
I mean, is there is there somebody else that could
can you know, step into Christian's place and perhaps feud
with the del Rio and del Rio obviously is on
the way up. Uh? Who takes Christian spot?

Speaker 10 (57:21):
Well?

Speaker 13 (57:22):
I think Kaval could do it. I mean he's you know,
he is a U. I mean, you know, he doesn't
have a lot of the I mean, he doesn't have
a lot of the gifts that Christian has. Christian can
Christian can deliver you a good, safe w w E
style match and you know, work with the guy and
make him look good. Kaval, you know, Kaval is not
so much worried about making they guy look good. But

(57:44):
I mean he's He's definitely a He's definitely somebody that
you can elevate to that look to at least.

Speaker 7 (57:50):
A Christians level for crying out love.

Speaker 23 (57:58):
I'm Kelly Wells, host of p w T Talks NXT,
the longest running NXT podcast, anywhere. Join me along with
Nate Lindberg, Bruce Lee, Hazelwood and special guests live every
Tuesday night, just minutes after NXT, where we cover the good,
the bad, and the ugly on the way to becoming
a star in WWE. Check us out live on YouTube
or stream later wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 3 (58:27):
Yeah, I agree, We're gonna speak of all on tonight's show.
On tonight's SmackDown in the match with Traval Burro with
I mean, I don't know if that's exactly the match
up that you gotta move on exactly, might.

Speaker 9 (58:46):
Be forced to.

Speaker 13 (58:48):
Close out the developmental topic by saying this, Now, what
does it say about the world of professional wrestling when
Ring of Honor has two developmental territories and WWE has won.

Speaker 3 (59:01):
Uh, it says a number of different things. One is
that doo Bee probably he's have a you know, a
variety of places to draw from. I mean, they need
ov W. You know that they might not don't want
to work with Cornett, they don't want to work with
anything of this, but they need somewhere else to draw from,
just than just one system.

Speaker 13 (59:23):
And if you're looking for something for Jim Ross to
be doing Maybe overhauling the developmental system is a pretty
good idea.

Speaker 3 (59:28):
Yeah, that's a good place to start. I mean, he
kind of he's supposted his Scatting report blog earlier this
week on James Barbecue, and you know, he's sort of
he's in a role where he's just kind of a
talent scout. You know, he's not like he's head of
the talent scouting department. And the way it comes across
it sounds like it's just, you know, kind of a
major league scout. He goes to the game and you know,

(59:51):
you know, scouts the opposing team for the upcoming series
and the Follis's report. But he's not directing the scouting
department to find new talent. You know, it's just sort
of a value in the talent's already there.

Speaker 13 (01:00:02):
Well, that's well, I mean, that's that's not a bad idea.
But I mean, yeah, obviously he's going to report to
John Lauryn Artis. But you would think at this point
Lauryn Artists would have enough respect that he would take
something that Jim Ross thinks seriously.

Speaker 7 (01:00:16):
Too.

Speaker 13 (01:00:18):
Yeah, I I I don't think so, I don't think
you know, I think Jim Ross is the pointed in
the life where he does not want to work and
he does not want to work twelve hour days.

Speaker 7 (01:00:28):
For inscman, right, not many people should want to do that.

Speaker 13 (01:00:33):
Yeah, well well yeah, but that's that's a lot of
what it takes. And I don't and I don't know.
I mean, I think things will change for the better
in that office once, you know, once uh the one
Stephanie and Triple Its takeover, just because you know, just
because they're gonna want to put their own stamp on things.
But yeah, I mean, you know, working working for WWE

(01:00:54):
involves long hours because they're understaffed because again they they
are trying to protect their up at margin and make
themselves money for the McMahon family and damp. And if
that means you underpay people and work people harder than
you know, and and work people very hard just because
they love wrestling and they want to be around you,
then that's you know, let's costume business.

Speaker 3 (01:01:17):
Yep, there you go. That was hit on one other
topic before we wrap it up today. The Excivision title
and TNA changed hands at the House show last night,
one week after they changed the title on TV. So
went from Doug Williams to Jay Lethal to Amazing Red
over the course of about seven days. I mean, to me,

(01:01:40):
it's I mean, what did titles in TNA mean these days?
And we have the TV title with aj Styles who
just made his made his own title, does not defend
it on TV. And then you have the vacant TNA title,
which the champion, the former champions is back before the
tournament is even complete for his dated titles. So then

(01:02:00):
you have the exhibition title, which I mean just means
virtually nothing these days, changing hands of the house show
right after the TV tows, right after change on the
TV show. Well, what do you make of that switch
and why they did that and what it says about
the teena title picture right now?

Speaker 13 (01:02:18):
Well that particular switch, this is just a guess that
I'm guessing that they are doing it. That they did
it on Thursday night, you know, reads from New York
City and Red wins the title again his hometown, and
then Saturday they're going up to New Jersey, which is
Jay Lethal's territory, and j Lethal wins the title back
in his hometown. That's my guess. But yeah, I mean, yeah,

(01:02:40):
titles meaning nothing is a bigger problem. It's a problem
within w w A, it's a problem with p and A.
It's not only a problem with the Ring of Honor
or dragon Gate, but they're not looked at as the
same level. I mean, you know, this goes back to
something that was happening, you know, twelve or thirteen years ago,
Paul Hayman. But PCW pretty the titles is very very
important because he knew he couldn't keep his top wrestlers.

(01:03:03):
So if the top wrestlers aren't can't be that you
can't focus on them as the most important factor. You
have to focus on the championships themselves as the.

Speaker 5 (01:03:11):
Most important factor.

Speaker 13 (01:03:12):
People are people live and die to to hold the
CW title. And there was a time when you know,
some wrestlers and and and to an extent, you know,
a lot of Paul's wrestlers brought into that. And I
mean that and it goes back a way. It's a way,
you know, it's a way to reward your your most
loyal people, you know, the most loyal wrestlers. And it's
a way to you know, and and it's something that

(01:03:35):
you know, you n w A built this entire schedule
around the NWA World Title and making sure this dam
and and uh and local promoters have built their schedule
about having the champion, whether it was Rick Flair or
King Kiniski or Dorry Funk or who all you know,
coming in to defend that title. I think that their
assets and you know, if you want to. And it's

(01:03:55):
just that certain people are so ashamed of being part
of pro wrestling that they don't want to take the
rest and title seriously. That they want the but they
want the advantage that comes from having you know, a
world title change or or or a battle over over
the belt. You know, it's it's sort of that they've
done for themselves.

Speaker 3 (01:04:15):
Yeah, they've shut themselves in the foot with it. And
then when they want to try to draw with you know,
a title, they don't take consideration that they've killed off
the value of that title, that nobody takes it seriously,
and nobody wants to spend money because oh, we have
a you know, we have the finals of a tournament. Well,
your belt doesn't mean much, so that match doesn't mean

(01:04:36):
much and they don't understand why, you know what, well,
why don't people want to see Kurd angle and Jeff already,
mister Anderson the Teenage War title three win match. In
terms of the new champion.

Speaker 13 (01:04:47):
Yeah, they want to see. I mean some of them did,
but the ont of them wrestling for the title doesn't
do a whole lot.

Speaker 3 (01:04:54):
For them, right, It doesn't add anything, right like it has.
It adds no value. I mean that should be a
value added match. But there's something tangible on the line,
not just you know, pride and glory and and and victory.
Uh you know, but when you when you don't have
a value to your title, you're adding nothing to that match.
You just you know, it's it's by word and my
marketing label only.

Speaker 13 (01:05:14):
And I mean this business does it does better in
this business when you have fans going to yourself just
a big For example, Gee, I wonder if if Randy
Orton can beat Seamous in the cell. Gee I wonder
if I wonder what Seamus now, what plans Evil plans
Seamus has to get to get the title back. Gee
I wonder if Undertaker is really done?

Speaker 3 (01:05:33):
You know?

Speaker 13 (01:05:33):
Gee I wonder if if Kane has Undertaker's number and
he's finally gonna finish him off.

Speaker 3 (01:05:38):
You know, Yeah, it's the anticipation, you know, to see
to see two guys compete over a title, not four
four way matches and six way matches. Was it just
I mean, there's just no I mean just you know,
there was no chase. There was no chase for that title.
For Randy Orton, he was just he was a hot
character and the audience kind of liked him and oh,

(01:05:59):
well he's a chance now, Okay, Well so what you know?

Speaker 11 (01:06:01):
It's just.

Speaker 3 (01:06:04):
Pro marterers have just lost sight and in trying to
rapid fire change everything and change champions and top stars
and changed storylines, they lost sight of the basics, which
is well.

Speaker 13 (01:06:15):
That I mean, James, my last title change was then
pushing the panic button because the ratings are going and
I'm gonna I'm gonna let everybody in on a little secret.
The rain's not gonna be good next Monday either. I'm
guessing we'll get another two point eight.

Speaker 3 (01:06:31):
And they're still lower. I mean, Tigers bears the money
that footballs, you know, I mean, you have a lot
of other programming, and it's two two and o teams.
That's two pretty hot football markets. Chicago is the big
wrestling market and they're gonna be watching football. So that's yeah,
a tape show coming off another pay per views, going
to another pay per view.

Speaker 9 (01:06:50):
Uh man, yeah, that it might not be good next Monday. Uh.

Speaker 13 (01:06:55):
And then I know some of the people who have
read and listen to, you know, the Torch for a
while have gotten sick of hearing you know, you need
to build new stars, you need to you need to
create new new matches, and yeah, you've heard it for
several years. Well, you know, here we are at that point,
and uh yeah, I mean there's no real joy in
being right, you know, you just you know, I mean,

(01:07:18):
they they run the risk that they have left it
too long and that they won't have anybody to elevate
their you know, their younger talent into being top guys.

Speaker 3 (01:07:28):
Right. Yeah, stuff went out to demands every time you
need to, you know, every time it's obviously you need
to start building some new stars and create some new
compelling storylines. And and the Costs have tried it out
to make Mans or the or the DX Reunion, you know,
part eight hundred. Uh that that's catching up with them.

(01:07:49):
And there's only so many times you can bring out
to night mans to the spark interest in your products.

Speaker 13 (01:07:54):
Uh well, yeah, I mean at this point, at this point,
it's definitely the man came back on television.

Speaker 3 (01:08:00):
Like yeah, yeah, they were ye boy, who is your
pick pad of the gam who's our mystery GM?

Speaker 9 (01:08:11):
Right now?

Speaker 13 (01:08:11):
Do you think I'd like to be Batista? Idea? And
I don't think it's gonna be it. I think at
this point it kind of almost has to be cripple
h because you know, I can't I can't see anybody
else that people would care about if they if they
made him the jam I mean the Miss of the
dark Horse, for the Miss of the dark Horse, for that,
but he doesn't he doesn't mean that.

Speaker 3 (01:08:32):
Yeah, yeah, he needs a single run. Yeah, I mean
I imagine that he'll be in the title picture. I
mean i'd like to see Orton z. I think that'd
be a really compelling uh different new few that really
has not been done before. Uh, and that might be
something maybe we'll get Orton in the wrestle media. I
think that would be a really compelling matchup to build

(01:08:55):
to over the rest of the fall.

Speaker 9 (01:08:57):
They didn't, you know, have you.

Speaker 3 (01:08:59):
Have miss with a Rubble if they really wanted to
push him all the way, uh, in scept that match
of Mania. So that's that's something that's compelling, and I
don't think he needs that GM roleative to do that.
I think you're strung enough as a.

Speaker 9 (01:09:10):
Heel right now.

Speaker 13 (01:09:11):
Yeah, that's my understanding that they're probably gonna try to
do SNA versus MINS first before.

Speaker 10 (01:09:15):
They get to Orton versus Miss.

Speaker 13 (01:09:16):
But yeah, I mean you've created you know, you know
you talk about creating new stars. Well, the miss has
been created and he's going to be a new star. Okay, great,
that's that's one. That's one main event level wrestler. How
many others are out injured? Do you need to replace.

Speaker 3 (01:09:30):
Or five? Yeah? Or retired? You know they're retiring the injured.

Speaker 13 (01:09:35):
Yeah, all right, James, Well this has been fun.

Speaker 9 (01:09:39):
Yeah, and.

Speaker 3 (01:09:41):
It was very very good. We'll try to do this
on a weekly basis. And you're going the back of
the years that you're not you're not really dodging this.
You're not.

Speaker 8 (01:09:52):
Very good.

Speaker 3 (01:09:53):
Any final thoughts before.

Speaker 13 (01:09:54):
We wrap up, Well, I help the Texans meet the Cowboys.

Speaker 3 (01:09:57):
Other than that, now, I thought we might get some
NFL discussion this week after Sunday's events, and we do.
Having we do it. We're on the same page this
week since we're both rooting the Texans Vida Cowboys, So
we're back on the same page this week. Yeah all right, Pat,
thanks for joining me for Torch Calm. It's Pat Mmeil.

(01:10:17):
This is Torch Assistant editor James Caldwell signing off.

Speaker 1 (01:10:26):
You don't have to wait for the way Keller Pro
Wrestling post show to find out what I thought of
Monday Night Raw and SmackDown. Each week you can check
out my reports that are updated live throughout Raw and
SmackDown at pwtorch dot com. My written report will tell
you what's happening in detail in case you missed the show,
and it will also analyze key segments and give my
random thoughts quips on what I am watching as it airs.

(01:10:49):
So check it out every Monday night and Tuesday night
at pewtorch dot com. That also applies to WWE pay
per views. I cover those live at pw torch dot
com with a detailed written report with star ratings, and
of course you can find other TV reports from other
contributors to PW Torch such as nxt roh, Impact Wrestling
and more. Check it out PW torch dot com your

(01:11:10):
first stop for TV and pay per views written reports.

Speaker 9 (01:11:25):
Welcome to pont I Am Full of Wrestling. Torch newsletter
editor and PW Torch dot Com editor Wade Keller, joined
today by Torch senior columnist Bruce Mitchell. How you doing, Druth?

Speaker 7 (01:11:37):
Do it just fine? I've been feeling pretty good for
the first time in about I don't know eleven or
twelve years.

Speaker 9 (01:11:43):
You just got back from the gym, you got over
your h whatever kind of cough for infection you had
that was causing you to cough constantly on these audio updates.
So looking forward to.

Speaker 7 (01:11:53):
A good show always about how being you? Isn't it
way I could? I was dying and then here you
are telling me out again.

Speaker 9 (01:12:03):
All right, Well, here's what we're gonna do. I talked
to you for two hours over the weekend about everything
under the sun pro wrestling related for the uh the
very popular VIP show, the Bruce Mitchell audio Show. So
with that in mind, what I want to do is
start right at the top of the show with callers
and we'll let them dictate what we talk about today
in the one hour leading into tonight's raw. A note

(01:12:23):
that rod Tonight was taped last week, so if you're
listening to us, live and you want to get a
list of what happened on the show, you can go
to PW torch dot com and get that information. Of course,
you should be going to PW torch dot com every day,
all the time to get wrestling news and exclusive columns
from the Torch staff. If you want to join us
here on the phone line, we've got four people already

(01:12:44):
on hold. You can be number five in line. The
number is six four six, seven to one, nine to
eight two eight. One final reminder before we take our
first call, and that is that the Torch Fantasy Draft
deadline was extended by a couple of weeks because of
the variety of things, including last week's pay per view.
So the deadline for ballots is tonight, and at the

(01:13:06):
conclusion of RAW, I'll be cutting off new ballots doing
the final tallly. I've got all of them compiled so far,
except for a few dozen that came in the last
couple hours, But I'll be doing the final Tallly. We'll
be revealing that in this week's Progressing Torch newsletter, the
results of this year's fantasy draft, along with columns set
draft being columns from you, Bruce Sean Radikin, James Caldwell,

(01:13:28):
Jason Powell, I'll be writing something up. Pat McNeil's got
something on the way, Greg Parks beend and say that.
So it'll be a draft beinged issue along with covering
news also, so be on the lookout for that. And
then if you're not a subscriber, later this week on
pw torch dot com, we'll do a stripped down version
of it, but we'll definitely have some draft results and
some covers and also some reader contributions in terms of

(01:13:51):
printing reader draft picks to give a sample of the
different of the different draft ballots that came in. So anyway,
that's the deal. If you want to send your draft
picks you don't know what we're talking about, there's a
link up near the top of the main listing at
pw torch dot com right now with instructions, but you
can send your draft list to Kellerwade at gmail dot com.
Just send the ten wrestlers you would pick right now

(01:14:13):
from current active wrestlers who you would want to start
a wrestling promotion with number one through ten in order
a priority, and let us know if you wanted to
make money with a wrestling promotion in twenty ten? What
ten wrestlers would you go with? And you can take
any philosophical style you want. It's just kind of a
fun thing that we do usually every year. I think
we skipped last year, but we've done it since nineteen

(01:14:34):
ninety seven. All right, let's dive into the phone calls
and let's begin with Eric code seven to four. Thanks
for calling, Please stay your name and where you're from.

Speaker 11 (01:14:43):
Hey guys, David Pittsburgh.

Speaker 9 (01:14:45):
Hey Dave, how are you doing?

Speaker 11 (01:14:46):
What's any savett? How are you guys?

Speaker 9 (01:14:49):
Good?

Speaker 17 (01:14:50):
Good?

Speaker 10 (01:14:50):
Hey?

Speaker 11 (01:14:51):
I didn't read the spoilers for ROS tonight because I
don't like to do that like a lot of people.
But what is this way with Chris Jeriker's contract? I mean,
does anybody know or are we gonna find that out tonight?

Speaker 3 (01:15:03):
Uh?

Speaker 11 (01:15:03):
Or has he signed a contract With's the deal with that?

Speaker 9 (01:15:06):
Bruce? What's the way to Don Jericho's contract?

Speaker 7 (01:15:10):
This contract is running out and I don't believe he's
signed a new deal yet. He's on good terms with
WWE so that he could return, but tonight is in
a way of writing him out and leaving him with
something to come back for, depending on when he comes back,
he could, you know, I mean he's got other projects.
He's got he's got another book, he's got, uh Fozzy

(01:15:30):
the tour with He's got his TV career to kind
of his non wrestling TV career to kind of look forward.
So he's he's got things to keep him busy. And
he also, you know, he's also gonna play the game
of talking to TNA or not talking to TNA and
and and negotiating with with them in WWE. So it's
just about he's gonna be.

Speaker 8 (01:15:50):
Out for a while.

Speaker 7 (01:15:51):
This is this is I think this is the last
go round. And of course I think he kind of
stayed a couple of weeks so that he could actually
plug his own DVD about mar So, I mean that's
the suit. You know, that completely makes sense.

Speaker 15 (01:16:02):
What do you think about it?

Speaker 9 (01:16:03):
Hey, days before you come back in with any follow up, Bruce,
what what did you think about Uh? The borderline bait
and switch with Jericho was saying if you if you
didn't walk out of Night of Champions with the championship,
he was gonna leave. And now Jericho, even not not
in the context of the TV show but outside in
social networking, said hey, I'm a heel. You're not supposed

(01:16:23):
to believe what I say.

Speaker 7 (01:16:25):
Yeah, but you're not a lot of the promotion said
it too, then the promotion didn't say it, then they
said it, and then they did. I think it was
more in confidence of how to handle everything. I think
they I wonder if they didn't just look up and go, oh, man,
that's right, we got we got this Dvdn't you gotta plug?
How can we plug it? With him already out of
the company, so you know, with a heel, you can't
sit there and go it was a bassas you go,
oh we miss him? Or the heel, what do you do?

(01:16:47):
So I think that might have been part of I
point a finger left the fate and switch and more
than confidency. And I also but I think that that tweet,
the thing that he said was kind of a stupid
thing to say. I don't think that was I don't
think that helping the situation. And I don't think that
I don't think that if he said if you said,
if a heel says something and the promotion goes along
with it, like as a global contract, then or repeats it,

(01:17:09):
if they go, we don't believe you that's one thing.
But if they if they repeat it and then they
drop and then they stopped talking about and then they
start talking about it, and they stop talking about it again,
that's the that's the creative end going through some changes.
And if you remember, they took him out, they did
that real weird thing where they took him out of
the six Pack Challenge and they brought them back into it.
So I just think they couldn't make up their mind,

(01:17:29):
take up their mind exactly how they wanted to ease
him in or out.

Speaker 3 (01:17:33):
Also, they may have.

Speaker 7 (01:17:34):
Been some you know, he may have been in the
dog outside of the doghouse, and who knows, because you know,
if you're if you're if you're looking to do something
else besides the w w A, you're not loyal and
that could be you know that that that runs through
people's minds in that company too. So you know, I
think that at some point, if Jericho is out of
the company for a while, you may hear exactly what happened.

(01:17:55):
If not, it may be this kind of murky mess
that we're dealing with right now.

Speaker 9 (01:17:59):
And jaracausel so Ben outside of pro wrestling to see
how other deals are worked. And he's he's a smart guy,
and he thinks highly of himself, and he can bargain
well for himself, and he's worked with Fairy Bloom over
the years. He's not somebody who's just going to be
a pushover when it comes to signing for a downside
guarantee that he doesn't think is up to what he

(01:18:19):
thinks he's worth or doesn't give him the flexibility approaching
age forty. I think he turns forty now, basically, you know,
sometime within a few weeks through the way here. He
he's somebody who I could see playing a hard bargain
and I could see WWE playing a game of chicken
with him too, So I think we saw that. But
both parties kept the negotiations to a certain extent pretty quiet.
We didn't get a lot of leaks about what was

(01:18:41):
going on, but it was clear based on TV that
something was Dave.

Speaker 11 (01:18:44):
Any other follow up, Well, I guess that kind of
leads me into my next question. The Holme Selfever review
is a Sunday I for one can pretty much guarantee
I will.

Speaker 9 (01:18:54):
Not be ordering it.

Speaker 3 (01:18:57):
The pro game.

Speaker 9 (01:18:57):
Hold on, Dave, hold on, I'm sorry for putting you
must be brought because WW just had a pay per
view last Sunday. There's no way they could be one
this Sunday. Yeah, go ahead.

Speaker 13 (01:19:07):
I'm sorry.

Speaker 11 (01:19:07):
I guess that's part of them. I guess that's part
of the problem. Another thing like that. I mean this, this, uh,
this pay per view. I mean, how do you how
can a hello, some match be realistic? It's not a
little bit of blood, I mean, I mean I can
understand them not wanting to splatter blood all over the
place every week weekend, week out, but I mean it
takes away from the match. You know, you got if

(01:19:29):
it's gonna be a brutal match, if it's what they advertise,
then it.

Speaker 13 (01:19:32):
Needs that pot.

Speaker 11 (01:19:34):
I mean, it's as simple as that. And I mean
there's nothing compelling enough on PV right now where you know,
I want to worry this paper. The most compelling thing
about worrying this pay per view for me would be
the return of Paul Bear.

Speaker 7 (01:19:48):
Yeah. Well well, I mean, well, you know, like, for
a second, I saw Paul Bare in August at the
Dates Fan Theft Convention. I would have bet that he
was too old to play that part of you. And
when I saw him on Friday night on SmackDown. They
did it from and he did too. But they did
a tremendous job putting in that suit, putting the makeup

(01:20:08):
on him, shining the camera on him just right. He looked,
I mean, he always looked like two different people.

Speaker 9 (01:20:13):
He always looked like he was filled with permeldehyde. He
always looked like he had a really hacked job of
crusty makeup put.

Speaker 3 (01:20:20):
On his face.

Speaker 9 (01:20:21):
Not to be too gruesome and grim here, but he like,
I mean, he really did.

Speaker 14 (01:20:27):
Look like it.

Speaker 7 (01:20:27):
But he looked like an older corp corpse instead of
instead of the middle aged corpse like that. I mean,
it really did it. They didn't really did quitet.

Speaker 3 (01:20:35):
The job with him.

Speaker 7 (01:20:36):
I mean I was just like, I guess it's just
the magic of television and a chance for me to
kind of see that. But I always thinking, because I
really was thinking, he's got to be coming back because
it's undertaker King, you know that they've got to tie
him back in. But and I kind of looked and one,
I don't know if he can do it, So okay,
he did it, just fine.

Speaker 9 (01:20:54):
Well what do you think about blood? Let's go to
Dave's particular question. You need to have blood in hele
NFL matches. Is having a little blood does that make
it not PG? I mean, I've always thought that's kind
of weird how having some blood makes it As long
as it's not overly excessive, it makes it non PG
when you're beating someone up inside a cage and throwing
them all over the place and punching them, and to me,
it's just like that's a weird line to draw. So

(01:21:16):
that's one kind of part of the question. The other
part is is it a hell NFL without blood?

Speaker 7 (01:21:21):
That is a weird line to draw. That always makes
me laugh. It's like with family Friendly. Come out and
see the family friendly fights. You know, you know the
one guy, one guy really wants to like destroy the
other guy, and you know, all these threats.

Speaker 3 (01:21:33):
And all this.

Speaker 7 (01:21:34):
It's like it's not family friendly. I mean, they can
they can shine up the seine on it and they
can make it look all.

Speaker 3 (01:21:39):
But you know, Hault Cogan in a ten.

Speaker 7 (01:21:40):
Minute match with with you know, with the same formula
they always use. That wasn't family friendly.

Speaker 3 (01:21:46):
When you when you get right down to it, it.

Speaker 7 (01:21:48):
Could have used blood, Yeah, it could. I mean they're
selling they're selling the ultimate you know, fights in a cage,
and it's sure, sure they could use blood, and I
think that blood, judiciously used in the right place really
helps the wrestling show. But they're not gonna do it.

(01:22:10):
I mean, I mean, somebody's I saw it, she's watching CNBC.

Speaker 3 (01:22:16):
It's a little while.

Speaker 7 (01:22:16):
Ago, and Linda Linda still you know, they had the raft,
they had Dean Raffles and Dean RAFs Musselins. But anyway,
the guy Rap Muslin who was who did the poll
to day is a little more Republican friendly, but saying
that Linda was within five points, he's still counting that
as a Democratic victory.

Speaker 3 (01:22:33):
But it's close.

Speaker 7 (01:22:33):
They're they're going to if they need to sacrifice a
little bit of a wrestling show and not that blood
so that somebody, so somebody can't use it against her,
They're going to You're not gonna have blood on this.
I mean, this is kind of it's kind of the
way it is now. Ken If you're a good enough
worker and they have a good enough story behind it,
and they they bounce off the field enough times, yeah,
I think they could make you forget. But it's gonna

(01:22:54):
be that much tougher for the performance.

Speaker 9 (01:22:58):
All right, Hey Dave, thanks for the call. Let's keep
your going through phone calls here. If you've got a
question or comment for today's show, you can uh call
us up at six four six seven to one nine
two eight. You may not know this also, but if
you can't listen to us live, you can hear us.
Or if you can't listen to us live on a computer,
you can listen to us live on your phone either

(01:23:19):
by going to if you've got a smartphone, blogtalk radio
dot com Slash Pro Dash Wrestling desh Torch. I just
said that the other day last week listening to James
Caldwell and uh, I'm not sure who the cost was
when I was listening, Oh, when James was playing solo
on Friday, and I dialed it up on my iPhone
and listened while I was driving. So that was cool.
So you can definitely do that. Just blogtalk radio dot
com Slash Prodash Wrestling dash Torch on your iPhone and

(01:23:42):
just click the link that I think says on air now,
I think that's what the link was, and it took
you right to the show. Or you can just call
that number in Eave Drop in on the show on
your phone. You don't need an iPhone or a smartphone
even just fallop six four six nine two eight and
you can listen in. If you want to participate in
the show, I think you just push one in your
touchdown phone. If you don't want to participate in the

(01:24:02):
show with a question or comment, just don't push any
buttons and you can listen on in. So we've got
a lot of phone banks and some pretty good flexibility
when it comes to how many listeners we can have
on the phone lines at once if you uh.

Speaker 3 (01:24:14):
Want to listen Rush of course, house chat room doing.

Speaker 9 (01:24:18):
Terrible because I didn't open it.

Speaker 3 (01:24:20):
Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Speaker 9 (01:24:23):
By the way, it is the job of guest co
host to remind me to open the chat room or
James Caldwell by email, and neither Bruce nor James did
their job, which is making me do my job.

Speaker 18 (01:24:35):
So anyway, longing for some nostalgia or maybe you want
to learn some wrestling history, don't miss the nineties pass
cast every Friday on the PW Torch Daly Cast Feed.
Alex and Patrick will transport you thirty years into the

(01:24:55):
past by taking you through the Torch issue from that
very week, follow news from the WWF and WCW and
all the happenings from across the wrestling industry in real time.
As The Torch reported it thirty years ago. That's the
nineties passcast every Friday on the PW Torch Dailycast feed.

Speaker 9 (01:25:22):
All right, so we're so, we're all yeah, how to
listen to the show before we go to next call?
If you want to listen on if you're listening to
us on iTunes, but you want to catch us live,
We're here Monday through Friday. Every day. Monday's run in
the hour preceding Raw, which is almost always eight to
nine Eastern, and then Tuesday through Friday we're on four
thirty to five thirty Central five thirty to six thirty Eastern.
You can listen to us live at blogtok radio dot com,

(01:25:45):
flash Pro Dash Wrestling Dash Torch. We've always got a
link up on PW torch dot com. If you forget
our address for the radio show, just go to PW
torch dot com and click on the live cast link.
And finally, if you listen to us live on blogtok
Radio but not all the time, subscribe to us on iTunes.
And you can get our shows, Andy lay and listen
to them at any time.

Speaker 3 (01:26:04):
So that is that all?

Speaker 11 (01:26:05):
Right?

Speaker 9 (01:26:06):
Back to the phone lines and Eric code seven eighty six.
You're on the show, Please state your name and where
you're from.

Speaker 3 (01:26:12):
Haly Gone, Johnny Davis, Patches and Johnny Good here for me.

Speaker 9 (01:26:16):
What's on your mind today?

Speaker 20 (01:26:18):
First of all, how much of a lost do you
think Christian is to smack Down right half?

Speaker 3 (01:26:22):
And he's probably gonna.

Speaker 8 (01:26:23):
Be out for a while.

Speaker 9 (01:26:25):
I don't think he's a I mean I think he was.
He was an I don't think SmackDown has a super
deep roster of people with a type of TV exposure
that Christian does, so that that was was helpful to
have him there, But I don't think in and of
himself he's been portrayed as anything that would qualify as
a ratings draw. He was a good veteran upper mid
card role player, and that's you don't want to lose

(01:26:47):
that when you've got a lot of Drew McIntyre, adult Sigler,
Cody Rhodes types wandering around without the type of experienced
Christian has. So in that sense, it's a loss, but
I don't think it's a ratings catastrophe or anything close
to it. It's not of plus, but it's not a
huge minus that I think crippled the show. Bruce.

Speaker 7 (01:27:04):
Yeah, my question is, how does it that the Christian
got a bicep tear that's an unusual In fact, he's
not the only one in the company. That's an unusual
issury that usually occurs.

Speaker 9 (01:27:16):
People who are what I think it was a pectoral tear,
but I think what your things still appla.

Speaker 7 (01:27:21):
Yeah, it's usually occurs with steroid users, but of course
health and Wellness policy, they are under steroid users and
w W and to my knowledgy is not. He's passed
all of his drug tests. He's not the only one
that's suffering from one of those injuries too.

Speaker 3 (01:27:36):
So that's my that's my quest.

Speaker 9 (01:27:39):
And Christian has been pretty injury free. I think over
the years. I think, is this his first surgery that
he's ever had for his major surgery?

Speaker 7 (01:27:47):
So he got okay, Ruth, Yeah, I couldn't. I don't
remember back that far.

Speaker 11 (01:27:55):
I think I think this is.

Speaker 7 (01:27:56):
I think this is I mean, he's had a long career.
Jericho is the one that that talks about being pretty
much injury free.

Speaker 3 (01:28:02):
Because he's and he.

Speaker 7 (01:28:03):
Says it helps, it's helps that he's taken these breaks
away from you know, and he's right that you know,
when you're when you're mentally burnout and when you physically
burn out is the time when you must must wovel
to get injured. But I think that's Christian's been pretty
injury free to Yeah.

Speaker 9 (01:28:19):
Yeah, so, I mean this could be an age thing
catching up to where you know, people get to this
point of their career where they really can be good
hands to bring along the younger wrestlers and they I mean,
if Spiraco says time off is helpful, especially when you
get into your mid to late thirties, I think it
becomes really really helpful to that time off, and you know,
you wonder how much that would have you know that

(01:28:40):
how much over the last couple of years that would
have helped Wwe actually end up with wrestlers having more consistent,
predictable ring time if they had predictable, consistent time brakes
so that they could heal up. But anyway, not to
be too our subject, Johnny, any follow up on that.

Speaker 20 (01:28:55):
Yeah, last week, when their ratings came up for wrong,
a couple of restaurant Matt, Matt Hardy and Greg just
try and watching a saying at w W gets for
going with the younger guys.

Speaker 3 (01:29:07):
They hits the pang, but and they keeps going down
the can.

Speaker 9 (01:29:12):
You know, I thought that, I thought that was pretty
self serving. I mean to say that because they're going
with young guys, ratings are going down.

Speaker 3 (01:29:19):
I don't like.

Speaker 9 (01:29:20):
I mean, for multiple reasons. I don't like that. For one,
I don't think it's true because Gregory Helms, with all
due respect to everything that he did well in wrestling,
was never a ratings drawn, never a difference maker. And
and and Cody Rhodes today or Drew McIntyre adult Siguar
today mean or Evan Bourne mean as much or more
than Gregory Helms ever did. And it's not a digging Gregory.
I'm just saying he was a mid park guy who

(01:29:41):
didn't make a difference. And Matt Hardy being you know,
I mean to sit here as a guy who was
pushed for the younger generation to get a push. I
don't like it when you hit thirty five and now
you're quote part of the older generation, all of a sudden,
you start talking like the people who used to speak
out against you know that, it just it just gets
it just seems like they should see how that sounds
and not say it. You know, well, it used to

(01:30:03):
be I used to be for pushing young guys, but
now that I'm not a young guy, I think they
should push the old guys. It's just so that kind
of thing runs me the wrong way. I think you
push the people, you push a good mix of talent,
but you have to push young guys otherwise you're not
setting yourself up for you know, the next phase or
the next generation of drawing ratings. Ruth your thoughts, Yeah,

(01:30:24):
I think so.

Speaker 7 (01:30:24):
It's kind of an interesting dealing with you know, we
all deal with it when you as you hopefully age
and and not every you know, they have to deal
with being on television, of being stars, of having your
value judged that way, and it could be it can
be kind of tough, but you know, I mean, I
think Gregor Gregory Hills was was a decent role player

(01:30:44):
who could add a little something to the big acts.
You know, I think of him and Rock and that
was kind of fun, but there wasn't there wasn't a
big upside to that, and it is kind of you know,
it is kind of interesting. Matt Hardy is just Matt
Hardy could do with some time off.

Speaker 9 (01:31:00):
Yeah, what is down there?

Speaker 3 (01:31:02):
And and and Johnny.

Speaker 9 (01:31:02):
I mean, I think there's a lot of reasons the
ratings are dropping. Uh, but it's it's it's not it's
not a matter of I mean, I don't look at
the roster and go oh, if they were only pushing
these you know, three or four older guys, the ratings
want to drop, you know, I mean, the ratings are
dropping for probably a long list of reasons, but it's
not I don't I can't point at two or three
guys on the roster going you know all they would

(01:31:24):
have pushed that Hardy harder, their ratings want to drop.
That's not really what comes to mind any follow up
or closing comments.

Speaker 7 (01:31:31):
I completely I completely disagree where you can be said,
I was just asking what was your opinion because that's
us And yeah, I think only can missing.

Speaker 20 (01:31:37):
From from just pushing the young guys that they were
able to get edgy, you know they weren't PG. I mean,
you probably be a lot easier to push those younger
guys with a little more edge, and they're gonna kind
of stay under the PGM, but it's probably harder.

Speaker 7 (01:31:49):
To push them.

Speaker 9 (01:31:50):
That's fine.

Speaker 13 (01:31:51):
What do you think they got to hit?

Speaker 3 (01:31:53):
Hit the panic button?

Speaker 20 (01:31:54):
I'm ating they're doing like, wait, two point five.

Speaker 9 (01:31:58):
No, I think three weeks in a row under three
point zero would be a huge concern to them. In fact,
two weeks in a row is pretty bad. But I
think they could rationalize the way tonight because it's a
pre tape show. I'm not sure if that's a good
excuse or not, but I think they would. So I
think if they do three weeks in a row under
three point zero, then it's panic time. But I'm a
little scared of what pushing the panic button means, Bruce.

(01:32:19):
What you're answer that question? When do they panic? And
two what would they do if they panicked?

Speaker 7 (01:32:25):
They should be concerned right now, and I don't. I mean,
there's a strong football game to night with the Packers
and the Bears, but they should be concerned, and I don't.
There's no pant, there's no button to push, there's nobody
to bring back. You could rush triple h back, but
I think triple edges won this two or three week
you know, guys, So I don't think that makes a

(01:32:46):
huge amount of difference, and I don't see blowing everything up.
I think that could that could leave dwards. This is
a time where you built where you build. This is
a time where you do a good job week after
week after week and hope the big ship turns around.
But they've got some reason to be really concerned. And
it's not just this is just something that they got

(01:33:08):
to within. This is the causes of this are not
things that they just did a few weeks ago and
then you just stop doing it. These are things that
they've been doing for a while. The one thing that
you do to help themselves immediately is to get Michael
Cole back to being a strong advocate for fans and
advocable what fans should be talking about and quit screwing around.

Speaker 3 (01:33:28):
And I think that that would be.

Speaker 7 (01:33:30):
That's something that I think has really done some damage.
You can look at you can look at it. Ever
since he's got on the next tea and starts smarting
off to wrestlers and making fun of baby faces and
being more of a character that I think ratings and
the fans' reactions have gone down. I mean, he is
he's the number one announcer he's the guy that needs

(01:33:51):
to lead the way and somebody else needs to be
a colored I think that's of course to start, but no,
there is no there is no little gold to bring in.
I mean that just sounds stupid saying, because there is
no what if they just did this and this and
invaded with this and this, what would happen? There's there's
there's no big picture, you know, hot shot strokes to.

Speaker 9 (01:34:12):
Pull, and I don't think job and I mean one
move that they could do is say, well, we're gonna
combine the rosters, have a you know, have a world
title unification match on Raw in two weeks, and then
we're gonna combine the rosters so all the stars are
on every show, and then start writing storylines that lead
from Monday to Friday to Monday to Friday with the
same crew of talent. That's what they did pre brand split.

(01:34:32):
I'm not in favor of that. I don't think it
would help sci Fi to have everybody that you can
see on Raw also on Sci Fi and Friday nights.
I think that would be a negative. I don't think
it'd be a huge negative, but I think it'd be
a little negative. And I think in the long run,
it's it's a big negative because people you're just gonna
overexpose the top talent, and and I don't I think
there's something about seeing John Cena once a week, something

(01:34:55):
about seeing Triple H once a week when he comes back,
and undertaking once a week seeing him twice a week.
I just there's not many shows that survive see you know,
kind of ongoing soap opper type storyline driven shows where
you can survive with two shows per week. You know,
Boardwalk Empire is not gonna survive with two shows per week.
People get their fixed mad men when survive. So I

(01:35:16):
just I think prost think the same way. I think
the brand split works, and I think they need to
take a slow, steady, smart approach to get out of
any kind of rough that they might find themselves in. Johnny,
are you still there? Okay? Johnny thinks for your call,
We're gonna move on to the next phone call and
go to Eric goes four eight zero. Please stay your
name and where you're from?

Speaker 10 (01:35:35):
Hey, guys, it's from how are you good?

Speaker 3 (01:35:38):
Great?

Speaker 9 (01:35:38):
Here from you EF.

Speaker 10 (01:35:41):
I'm na sound like a total shill, but you guys
had some great audio updates and I enjoyed the Bruce
Mitch Audio Show this weekend and the after Editor yesterday.
So again, anyway, we do not we do not.

Speaker 9 (01:35:53):
Mind shilling as long as it's heartfelt and honest.

Speaker 3 (01:35:56):
That's not chilling, honest, just shill.

Speaker 10 (01:36:01):
I really enjoyed the audio show this weekend, really did.
It was a great stuff, great But my question is,
what do you think of the audience of SmackDown on Friday?
And there's an audience that is pretty dull, like that
prevents them from getting future tapings.

Speaker 9 (01:36:19):
I didn't it's rare, but I didn't see SmackDown yet,
so I can't speak to that. Bruce di DC much
or any of s make up.

Speaker 7 (01:36:25):
That seemed like they were playing some games with the audio,
which smith because they they weren't that excited.

Speaker 13 (01:36:30):
Uh.

Speaker 7 (01:36:30):
Yeah, I did see SmackDown, and I thought it was
we're gonna give you as little as possible still get
away with having a SmackDown show, you know. And they
had the Paul barretting again, which she enjoyed. But you know,
and and this is the you know, this is the end,
and we're going to and we're going to you know,
a live SmackDown on scide Fi fin those interesting to

(01:36:50):
me was their big they're big move for the last
SmackDown was to bring special guest star John c to him.

Speaker 3 (01:36:57):
You know the number. You know, they're big star.

Speaker 7 (01:36:59):
And so they tells me they don't have any moves
really in mind that they've got they've got to show
up raw and loss, but you know, d doesn't have
anything to do right now.

Speaker 3 (01:37:09):
So that was you know, that was interesting.

Speaker 7 (01:37:11):
I mean, if those kind of audiences I've seen with that.
I remember when that wol happened in WCW, where the
audiences had bought their tickets and then they had bought
their tickets a few months before, and then then WCW
got so crappy, Nyrol and thunder got so bad that
by the time they came to the show, they'd kind
of forgotten why they bought the tickets, and they weren't
very happy with the show that they gott and they sat.

Speaker 3 (01:37:32):
On their hands. So if it's the one time thing, you.

Speaker 7 (01:37:35):
Know, sometimes you just hit a crowd and it's the
one time thing. If it's if it's not, then that's
that's the problem, because you know, they need that live
energy and they need that tape energy from and there's
only so much that playing audio games can do for you.

Speaker 9 (01:37:49):
Yeah, and the short answer is yeah, bad crowd can
hurt your chances of getting a taping again, you know,
I mean they don't. I mean, it doesn't mean you
won't get it. If they think they can draw and
they want to do TV to draw, that'll do it.
Probably probably in the town that responds poorly to a show,
unless they just really understand why, because they did they
burned them out, you know, by doing two papings at once,

(01:38:10):
or or they had a really bad first hour with
an XT or something where they go, ah, we've burned
the crowd out. That was our call.

Speaker 3 (01:38:15):
And let's say say something like that.

Speaker 9 (01:38:17):
It will hurt to a certain extent getting a taping back.
But yeah, I think so. The larger issue SmackDown should
have I think had a storyline art that was playing
out elast six weeks that peak in time for everyone
to say sci Fi is a musty show and we're
not getting that sense going into into the debut on
Sci Fi later this week.

Speaker 1 (01:38:37):
Anytime you're watching ww E RAW or SmackDown or AW
Dynamite in particular, send us an email if you've got
thoughts on the show or a topic you want us
to address or a question for us. Wade Kellor podcast
at pwtorch dot com. Wade Keller Podcast at peakw torch
dot com. If there's anything else going on in pro
wrestling that you want us to address on our main

(01:38:58):
podcast during our mailbank segments, that same email applies Wad
Keller podcast at pw torch dot com. We invite that interaction.
Let us know what you think of what we're saying,
and let us know what you want us to talk
about and ask us specific questions. Wadekeller Podcast at pw
torch dot com.

Speaker 9 (01:39:16):
I effort anything else, Yeah, what do you think will
be the better?

Speaker 10 (01:39:21):
I guess worst pay per view by rate? This tent
is telling us sell or I'm getting double billed for
a pay per view. What's spending one hundred and ten
bucks on two pay per views? Or dragging rights next
month where there's no brand slet basically anymore.

Speaker 9 (01:39:37):
I don't care, boy, I mean this run of three
WW pay per views in what were they thinking?

Speaker 10 (01:39:47):
What were they thinking during it, like when they were tign.

Speaker 3 (01:39:49):
In the pout.

Speaker 9 (01:39:51):
I don't know. And this isn't the first time they've
done that. I mean, we've had I think it was
the last couple of years. We've had this stretch where
there's been a lot of pay per views all in
a row. I think three of them is s weeks.
I think is the timing of this stretch, it's way
too much. I mean, if we look at what happened
with pay per view Byeries, so Royal Rumble came in
solid and then and then people started getting their cable
bills and February went down. WrestleMania was still solid, but

(01:40:14):
it's sort of scary in certain ways, and then it
died again, and Bruce we talked about this and the
Bruce Mitchellatio Show at length. I just don't think people
want to pay fifty five dollars for a high desk
wwe pay per view, and those bills started coming in
and they're capable changed, and you know, I know it's
hard when you're a billionaire to imagine how fifty dollars
on a cable bill makes a difference in someone's life.

(01:40:34):
But they need to get in touch with their audience
and realize, you know, fourteen pay reviews a year, by definition,
means they're not that special. And if they cut back
to four pay per views per year, they could charge
fifty five dollars and they'd be fine. But I think
this is a three three pay per view stretch that
not only will draw really poorly, and I don't even
know where to begin on guessing which will be the worst,
probably breaking rights, but I don't know the line up yet,

(01:40:58):
so it's hard to say. But what I think they
might do is really turn off people who like to
be completests, who like to see every pay per view,
because not only are the people who said at home
and order ate alone or with a couple of friends
affected here, but just to get together. So you know,
there's a lot of people who still get together and
have friends over I did it forever, where you have
to see these friends once a month. Well some of

(01:41:18):
those friends you want to see once a month, not
three times in six week. So all of a sudden,
that pattern gets broken up a little bit, and I
just think it's hard to get people back into that
into that pattern when you break it. I just think
it's greedy. As they'll advise, the praises are too high,
the frequency is too high, and the product isn't hot
enough to support it. So I just think it's a
disaster in the making.

Speaker 7 (01:41:36):
Ruth, Yeah, I mean I said, my guess is that
Hell in the Cell will do a little bit better
because I think I think it's Hell in the Cell
on its own is one of the gimmicks that does
sell a little bit because people imagine that violence. But no,
I think I think they've got a real I think
they made a major mistake up in that prize, and
I think they've taught a lot of people that I

(01:41:57):
don't need to see it, who were regularly watching out
of habit, who are taking a look at a lot
of things that they that they spend money on and
cut them and cut back and they don't need to
have it. I don't know. I don't think cutting the
price back it would would help either. I mean, I
think they're kind of stuck now, and oh I think
it would help.

Speaker 3 (01:42:13):
It's a major it's a.

Speaker 7 (01:42:15):
Major if it's a major force, I mean, it's a
major problem. And I don't know it's gonna take. And
and also I just think that they have something, they
have a product right now that if you like the
main characters, if you like John Cena, if you like
Randy Orton, you can watch it without paying for anything

(01:42:38):
and get plenty of your of your favorites.

Speaker 3 (01:42:41):
And that's that's a problem.

Speaker 7 (01:42:43):
You know, that's a problem too. They kind of the
kind of the kind of adult emotion that takes to
get adults diff into their pockets for fifty bucks isn't
coming from a PG product. And that that's you know,
there's real good things to go with PG products, and
part of it is time to get the stench off.

Speaker 3 (01:42:59):
Of off their corporation.

Speaker 7 (01:43:01):
But if stuff, I mean, you know, I don't know
what you know.

Speaker 9 (01:43:06):
The whole thing for the long term house at WWE,
if you just waved a magic want that could make
it happen, would you cut all of their cable programming?
And I'm taking fiscal issues into consideration here, I understand
that's a big hit. Would you cut their programming down
to just raw, get rid of Superstars, NXP and SmackDown,
consolidate the roster, have two hours of wrestling, don't overexpose

(01:43:27):
your world champion, don't over expose your top stars. In fact,
make it rare that you see John Cena or Randy
Orton in a match. Take the hit on the ratings
in the short run. But by cutting back from six
hours of cable wrestling a week down to two, you
maybe would create a greater demand every week for that product.
Everybody would consolidate on Monday nights. It would become a

(01:43:47):
big deal again to watch wrestling once a week for free,
and that might be enough to get people to order
monthly pay per views, not not three of them in
six weeks, but monthly ones. How about that?

Speaker 7 (01:43:58):
You know what, That's not gonna happen because if they
get paid major TV rights fees and they are very
much about having that television's presence, and I mean, I agree,
I think that there's things that they can do, like
pick some of their major stars and don't have him
wrestle on television, have him make appearances and talk yeah,
but and and hide those appearances and maybe and maybe

(01:44:20):
miss shots. You know, next week John Cena is gonna
be here in Arson to deal with this situation, you know.

Speaker 3 (01:44:27):
That kind of thing.

Speaker 7 (01:44:28):
And they did it in the eighties with all Cogan.
Ol Cogan wasn't on television every shot.

Speaker 9 (01:44:34):
No, you're right, And that's that's actually what I cited
as an example in my Keller Hotline yesterday when I
did the ass the Editor segment, I talked about how
if they make Randy Orton a chance that if Randy
Orton is a long term champion for WWE, and let's
say they merge the titles and there's only one world
champion he can't beat, he shouldn't be on every show.
He shouldn't have his schedule increased. Cut him back where
he's only on once every three four weeks on television,

(01:44:55):
and make it a special thing. That used to be
the case with Rick Flair in the eighties. He was
and on every TV show in every territory that recognized
him as world champion every week in fact, World Class
Championship Wrestling. It was a very special occasion when he
would show up on World Class TV, and that was
the case in other territories. Hulk Hogan same thing. He
appeared more so on localized promost if he was coming
to your town, But the syndicated show did not feature

(01:45:18):
Hulk Hogan every week, and he rarely wrestled. Dusty Rhodes
wasn't even the world champion, and they make a huge
deal lot of the fact that he was wrestling later
on World Championship Wrestling or on a syndicated show. There's
a way to do that, but it's not I don't
think it's in the current mentality of the current promoters
and writing teams. But when I say Wave of Magic
wand I gon' nice your thing about, it's not gonna

(01:45:40):
happen because the finances. I'm kind of saying, if you're
looking at the next six years of the health of WWE,
and do you take that hit in TV revenue in
order to just preserve the brand during a time when
it is overexposed and overpriced. Do you just say we'll
take that hit on the TV revenue and try to
build that rating up, because I assume the raw rating
would go up if they if they did cut back

(01:46:02):
from six hours to four hours of original programming a week.

Speaker 11 (01:46:06):
Yeah, I mean scary r I see there, Go ahead.

Speaker 9 (01:46:11):
Yeah, go ahead, every what's the.

Speaker 10 (01:46:13):
Scary viye rate for next month? To where they where
I get scolded again for bringing uh bringing people over.
And that's why the paper n numbers are down because
a fall below one hundred thousand, and then what happens
do they consider dropping the price? When do they consider
dropping the price?

Speaker 3 (01:46:29):
Yeah?

Speaker 9 (01:46:29):
I mean, we talked about what's the panic button for
a raw rating, what is the panic number for pay
per view? I mean, you know, it's sort of you've.

Speaker 7 (01:46:37):
Got to realize that one hundred thousand is international. So
at one hundred thousand and there's a good chunk of
that that's from overseas, then you're getting into some scary
territory sixty thousand or fifty thousand bars across across the country,
And that's terrible. I mean, that's just you're getting into
t and that you're getting into T and a territory,

(01:46:57):
and that's just that's when why are spending all this
avatarsing on this? And they don't have as they simply
don't have the excuse of saying pay per views a
dying market was what we've seen with what UC who
is also ever exposed to greens to the table and
kind of boys it when they have a hot spot.

Speaker 9 (01:47:15):
Yeah, but you know what we're not seeing. We're not
seeing brock Lesner and George Saint Pierre and Anderson Solva
and BJ Penn and on and on fight every week
on television, you know. And so when we say USC
is overexposed, I think it's worth a caveat to say
there's there's too much of it on television to a
certain extent, the way that it's it's structure right now,
I think there's a way you can do a weekly
MMA show, but the key difference is that they're not

(01:47:38):
overexposing their top stars in first run fight on television. Yeah,
there's a lot of pay per views and I think
once a month is the most they should ever do
on pay per view, and the fight nights in the
in the UK special Letteranspike those I mean, that's where
you start getting to overexposing the product, because you want
every show to be good and you want deep star power.
But USC is in a better position in the sense

(01:47:59):
that it's built in to their structure to not feature
the same talent month after month after month. And with WWE,
that's the problem there, and that's why the future of
WWE may it may in two years v back to
six or four pay per views per year because they're
just the vibrates plummets so much and they have to
rebuild their audience by making it less frequent and then

(01:48:20):
maybe keep the price the same. I think that's a
smarter approach than cutting the price and sticking with fourteen
per year. But heck, I'd go both. I'd go down
to thirty five bucks and cut it down to six
per year and just say we need to do this,
we need to stabilize the ship.

Speaker 7 (01:48:34):
Well, I mean, one of those things would found out too.
When they did in your House pay per views back
in the back in the nineties and they had those
fourteen ninety five pay per views, they found out that
they got the same amount of people buying those, and
that when they raised the prize it sort of staved
that way. I think, I really think that. I mean,
I think they're stuck.

Speaker 11 (01:48:52):
I mean, you can, you can lower the play.

Speaker 7 (01:48:54):
Procics, they would end up with the same until they
get the product better, they would end up with about
the same amount of people to ordering it. And that
they that they have now, I mean it's but I mean.

Speaker 3 (01:49:04):
They have.

Speaker 9 (01:49:06):
That logic now we're doing Bruce Mikeladios Shore going back
and forth here. But I don't buy the logic that
price doesn't matter. I just I think at some point
it does, and I think they crossed that line. I'm
not saying, well, I'm not saying that.

Speaker 7 (01:49:18):
I'm definitely not saying that Yeah, So I think that
I think they've lost those people, and I don't think
most of those people are going to come back if
you if you lower the price ten bucks. I think
they found out that, hey, I have to live it out.

Speaker 3 (01:49:29):
Right, what happens, right.

Speaker 9 (01:49:31):
But that's why, let me clarify, I don't think that
if you lower the price ten bucks you're going to
get the DISGRUNTLD fans back. But what I think they've
done is they've reached a price point that they're not
going to be adding new people. And I think over
the next two years that fifty five dollars for high
to have pay per view, they're not going to add
nearly as many customers as they will over the next
two years if the price is papped at thirty nine
ninety five. So I'm saying, in two years, you want

(01:49:52):
to have some new customers fifty five bucks, you're going
to have a small fraction of the new customers that
you need to replace the people who leave no matter what.
And that's where the price makes the difference. It's not
a month to month change. I really think it's building
an audience over the course of a couple of years
to replace the ones who leave. That's where the price
point matters, and that's where that even that in your
house formula from the nineties I think is pretty dated.
I mean it was valid at that point. I think

(01:50:13):
it's apples and oranges now though.

Speaker 11 (01:50:16):
Yeah, we won't know those a couple of hours.

Speaker 2 (01:50:18):
Yeah sure, I'm Chris Maitland.

Speaker 24 (01:50:21):
I'm Justin McClellin.

Speaker 2 (01:50:23):
We host Wrestling Coast to Coast, a podcast on independent wrestling.

Speaker 24 (01:50:26):
Every week, Christ and I review a different show. We're
talking about important topics from around the indie wrestling world.

Speaker 2 (01:50:32):
Learn about the hot underground stars and the future main eventors.
For anyone else, you can reach us at Torchcoast to
Coast at gmail dot com and me on Blue Sky
at Mind of Maitland.

Speaker 24 (01:50:41):
You can reach me at Blue Sky at Justin McClelland.

Speaker 2 (01:50:44):
Find the show on your PW torch daily Cast podcast feed,
search PW Torch on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you
listen to podcasts.

Speaker 24 (01:50:52):
Also stream the latest shows on pwtorch dot com.

Speaker 9 (01:50:57):
All right, everyan, thanks you for call. We want to
keep rolling through out here and we'll go to area
code sixty five one. Please take your name and where
you're from.

Speaker 11 (01:51:05):
There it guys, it's time to stif hall.

Speaker 9 (01:51:07):
Hey, time to do for me? I'm talking about today,
not much.

Speaker 3 (01:51:10):
A couple of questions for you.

Speaker 7 (01:51:12):
One, I was listening to the first audio show over
the weekend. You guys are talking about how the announcers
don't really do much actual announcement. They just kind of
sit there and talk about what happened twenty minutes before,
what's gonna happen ten minutes ahead, actually while the match
is going on, and to remedy that. You guys, I'm

(01:51:32):
remembering this correctly, and I might not be didn w
w ASK used to do pay per views and have
go out on radio.

Speaker 3 (01:51:41):
Uh.

Speaker 7 (01:51:43):
Rob Costas did a couple of different as shows from
Saint Louis, and it's been done from time to time.
I think ww may have done it in the early
nineties in Atlanta on the Omni shows.

Speaker 9 (01:51:57):
But yeah, I mean it's hey, I'll be done the
Bruce let me come in on the radio thing, because
I in the mid eighties I used to listen to
live radio play by play of WWF house shows at
the Mets Sports Hunter in Bloomington, and I mean that
was really cool. I mean, well, I don't know how
long they did it, but and it was it was
hilarious too because was it Ron's front guard or I

(01:52:21):
don't think it was rat It was one of the
old a WA announcers who jump but anyway, he would
he implored listeners when like it was time for like
John Studd versus Nder the Giants or something like that,
and he's like, there's still time to get out to
the arena and buy the ticket and time to see
the main event. Like they were selling tickets two thirds
of the way into the show and at intermission going
you can still get out here and buy a ticket.

(01:52:41):
It was it was quite I don't know, it was
kind of humorous to think somebody would run out just
to see the main event. But so so that has
been done well.

Speaker 15 (01:52:52):
They decided to go back to doing you know, Raw
SmackDown and pay reviews on radio, and you know you
can throw the commercial breaks in when they're doing the
video packages on.

Speaker 9 (01:53:03):
Yeah, you know, announce tom. I'm like, I'm kind of
against this because it drives me nuts sometimes because I
think it's taken too far to want to an extreme now,
but they really do push sports announcers in all sports,
and for wrestling, not to tell people what they can
see with their own eyes. And and so I think
if you had are you saying the announcers would do
both television and radio at.

Speaker 15 (01:53:25):
The same time, like simulcast either that door have just
a second group of announcers sitting up there oppressed by
doing it.

Speaker 9 (01:53:34):
Yeah, I don't know. I just don't know that investing
time in radio in twenty ten is the way to
improve much. What what would do you think that would solve?

Speaker 15 (01:53:44):
Well, I'm just well, I'm thinking if you know, they
did the simulcash thing, it would force the announcers to
actually announce what was going on.

Speaker 9 (01:53:51):
In the brain. I think the announcers would be happy
to announce what was going on. If if dincent Man
said call the matches, I think they'd call it. I
don't think they need radio. I think they're just following
business instructions. I mean Askas and Mccoli have said, I
mean the sense of individuality and creativity and that announcing
job is stripped from you by Vince wick Mann, and
your only job there at some point is is just

(01:54:12):
make sure Vince I do what Vince wants me to do.
So he doesn't yell at me because I just want
to collect my paycheck and and my creative my pride
in my job is stripped away. I'm here to just
throw a physic man. And so it's it's really up
to Vince to tell announcers what to do. I don't
think they need radio to spur that on.

Speaker 13 (01:54:28):
Okay, it's just yeah.

Speaker 15 (01:54:30):
The second question, is there any you know do is
this tougher for a wrestler to get into you know,
w w A or being a major thing if he's
left handed as opposed to the standard right hand, you know,
messed with you know, working with other opponents when everyone's
used to working with Riety's and everything's backwards working with

(01:54:50):
HILESTI uh.

Speaker 9 (01:54:52):
And unexpected but but interesting question. I've never heard of
a left handed wrestler having a tougher time in I
know a lot of what they do is right handed,
no doubt about it. But I think left handed people
pretty much go through life adjusting to that. It's not
like a baseball pitcher where it's an advantage. It's not
like in kickboxing where it can even be an advantage

(01:55:12):
because you can kind of throw people off off the
game by having a stance that's different than they're used to.
But in wrestling, I haven't heard of that being an
issue of Bruce of you. No, I really haven't.

Speaker 7 (01:55:22):
I mean, I figure, you know, I think you have
to learn to adjust. Yeah, so it comes that if
you're left handed. I'm left handed, you learn to adjust
or you have you know, you might have crappy an.

Speaker 11 (01:55:32):
Robbing like I did.

Speaker 9 (01:55:35):
All right, you're listening to the PW Torts Live Cast.
I'm host Wade Keller, editor of Progressing Torch newsletter and
PW torch dot Com, joined today by senior columnist Bruce Mitchell,
and we are taking your calls live here on Monday night,
September twenty seventh, two thousand and ten. And if you
want to get in line on the phone banks, I
think we've only got two people on hold, so we
should probably get we should be able to get at

(01:55:55):
least three or four more calls on the show, So
call us at six four, six, seven to one, nine
to two weight. We are counting down the minutes until
Raw airs tonight on USA Network. It's a pre taped show.
We've got full results on PW torch dot com in
case you're planning to catch the Packer Bears game, or
like people in Minnesota, maybe watching a baseball Pennant Rinks

(01:56:16):
game or something like that. We do have results of
raw and of course Jame Caldwell and I will both
be covering it with separate, separate reports tonight, giving you
not only details on what happened, but our point of
view and analysis of how things come across on television.
So be sure to check that out, either live during
the show or shortly afterwards. And if you have heard
a few people comment on these audio shows, Ephron indorsed

(01:56:36):
us and Tom talked about what we talked about this weekend.
If you're interested in more audio than the live cast
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(01:56:59):
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(01:57:20):
including the first official Bruce Mitchell column coming up soon.
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(01:57:43):
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Speaker 3 (01:57:58):
One good way.

Speaker 9 (01:57:59):
By the way, if you're a IP member, he haven't
done this yet, or you're thinking of a subscription, he
can spend an afternoon reading the Bruce Mitchell library. We
have not every Bruce Mitchell article from over the years,
but most of them are now posted in the Bruce
Mitchell Library. He is I can say this, and in
all honesty, he is the most influential and the best
wrestling columnist of the last couple generations. We can almost

(01:58:20):
say Bruce at this point and in every major controversy,
every major wrestler, every major story, pretty much he has
done a long form feature column on and they are
they hold up over time, and it is I will
I will put up the collection of Bruce Mitchell columns
in the Bruce Mitchell Library on the VIP site up
against any wrestling book or any two wrestling books and

(01:58:43):
say you'll learn as much and have a lot of
thought provoking points of view from someone who knows about
as much about pro wrestling as anyone. So that's just
one of many many reasons to become a VIP member.
And I thought i'd say that since Bruce's on the
show today, is that enough compliments for you today? Bruce?

Speaker 7 (01:59:00):
How much more time do we have?

Speaker 9 (01:59:03):
Of course?

Speaker 3 (01:59:03):
Yeah?

Speaker 9 (01:59:04):
That sight all right, Let's go to UH area code
A six five. You're on the live cat thing for olding.
Stake your name and where you're from.

Speaker 5 (01:59:13):
Hey, it's going on guys with Stephen from Tennessee.

Speaker 9 (01:59:16):
He's Stephen Goodie from you. What's in your mind today?

Speaker 5 (01:59:20):
Here's a question I think I.

Speaker 9 (01:59:21):
Brought U a couple of days ago.

Speaker 7 (01:59:22):
I'm not only sure, but it's something that there y'all.

Speaker 5 (01:59:24):
Mentioned on the brick Into Audio show this past weekend.
H do you think one of the big things that
wrestling's missing over the many things is especially now with
all these gig matches, they're missing like just that big
match field that he used to get with the wrestling,
especially when they did you know, the Big Four. You know,
I think something that ws and missing for a while

(01:59:45):
with the accession of probably the Taker and Michael's matches
from WrestleMania, you know, as far as like Pronocean and
all that stuff. But you're just missing like that big
match I had to disu produce just for that match field,
you know. I think I think of artis to take
as out and miss with time of Black beada Rich's
match listen to mind you you get that card from
Rating and they can to snatching at the big Deal.
I think you need its dropped that especially with the
gem it matches.

Speaker 9 (02:00:07):
You No, I mean this is I mean it kind
of ties into what we're saying about the frequency of
pay per views and how often the top talent is
featured on TV and chasing the ratings so hard every
week that they give so much away, and it's it's
it's destroying, you know, the golden goose destroying the golden
goose cut lays the golden eggs. They're they're they're so
desperate for that short cut, hot shot, extra tenth of

(02:00:29):
a rating point and it really really, uh, they pay
the price in the long run, and I think that's
happening more and more. Brus your thoughts, Yeah, I agree.

Speaker 8 (02:00:39):
I mean, the whole game is building up a match.

Speaker 7 (02:00:43):
Between two stars that just seems so special that you
can't miss it, and you mind your mind dipping into
your pocket and you find a way.

Speaker 3 (02:00:51):
That's the whole business.

Speaker 13 (02:00:52):
Yeah, that's what the business has always been.

Speaker 7 (02:00:54):
So I mean, yeah, if business is down, then that's
the ball. But it's all in how do you do
that and serve of all the different masters that they
have to serve with television and television writings and all
in all the philosophies they have and all the self
composed rules they lay out on who they are and
what they do In short, there's a lot.

Speaker 9 (02:01:14):
Of different ways to promote pro wrestling successfully, and pro wrestling,
when done well and paced well, is really, really, really
compelling entertainment. Simulated combat with larger than life personalities orchestrating
in this hard forum, dramatic fights at its best is
as good as any movie, any TV show, any sporting event.

(02:01:36):
And we've seen that, you know, with Shawn Michaels, especially
recently the last three years. We've seen it with a
lot of people on smaller scales and Ring of Honor
over the years, and you know, D and A occasionally
even even pulls that off, as they did as their
last payer reviews. So there's ways to do it right.
But the way it worked the last fifteen years may

(02:01:56):
not be the formula that works the next fifteen years.
And that's a really big decision to change something when
things are going well. And it's only when things stop
going really well that I think a machine as large
as WWE even considers major changes. But you know, we
talk about three weeks in a row under three point
zero or hitting a two point five rating on Raw,

(02:02:18):
followed by maybe poor ratings for sci fi, embarrassingly bad
ratings for sci FI SmackDown, along with domestic by rates
staying under one hundred thousand and press the overall buy
rates staying under one fifty. Those are all.

Speaker 3 (02:02:30):
Those are all I.

Speaker 9 (02:02:31):
Think moments where everybody in WWE realizes the change has
to radical change in how they do. Things have to
be considered, and they might even have to take a
couple of steps back in order to build for two
years from now. You know, it's it's to use an
NBA analogy or any sports, but in an NBA analogy,
if you're a perennial forty five game winner or forty

(02:02:52):
two game winner, you never get to rat picks. You're
always a sixth seventh a seed in the playoffs, and
you always lose in the first round. Maybe occasionally you
get to the second round. Point you make that call
and you say we need to rebuild, and you do
a huge movement. That happens in all sports. You know,
all pro sports teams make that choice, that decision, and
it could get bad enough for WWB says we gotta
we have to actually start building for the future. And

(02:03:13):
to a degree, almost by force, they had to do
that by pushing Shamus as hard as they have and moving,
you know, with with the Nexus the way that they did.
They just didn't have enough depth on the as far
as Superstars went to not pull some fast pushes for
the way. Barrett Shamus types, Yes.

Speaker 1 (02:03:32):
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Speaker 9 (02:04:11):
Anything else even.

Speaker 25 (02:04:13):
Again this kind of.

Speaker 13 (02:04:14):
Haas into the promotion thing.

Speaker 5 (02:04:16):
I'm one of those fans I thought become a USC
fan that one of those fans are becoming. It's becoming
a very quick fan of both forms.

Speaker 13 (02:04:23):
Of combat.

Speaker 3 (02:04:25):
I guess here in the n A and.

Speaker 5 (02:04:26):
The NDE, and when you look at a few magazine publications,
they're completely different. Obviously, maybe it's more gear to your panding,
But do you think that the magazine could help promotion?
Why if you look at like the UFC's magazine, like
being promote, they will do the interviews with the undercard fighter,
we'll talk about the main car coming up, whereas the
needs they just.

Speaker 3 (02:04:43):
Talked about the pay per view instead of the matches.

Speaker 5 (02:04:45):
That just because it's so it's not looked at as
hard in.

Speaker 3 (02:04:48):
Advance of the USC.

Speaker 5 (02:04:48):
Or do you think that they can maybe know what
we nail the these two guys at five Lona previews,
so probably next one they're gonna be the main event
again too, so you can deal.

Speaker 3 (02:04:55):
A follow up.

Speaker 9 (02:04:57):
Yeah, I think they booked too much on the fly
and with the pumbp seeing data in the magazine, I
don't think they probably have time to do that. But
I mean, really it might. I mean it might be
getting the point where ww ME needs to start actually
looking even to how UC promotes their pay per views
in the magazines, Like you say, to just get some
new ideas and think outside of the kind of a
rut that they've been in lately. Brews. Any comments on

(02:05:20):
that from you before we keep going here.

Speaker 7 (02:05:23):
Well, magazines at this point of God, the insulary revenue streams.
But yeah, I mean it didn't get your I mean
those magazines. I've seen it from Tom to Tom, and
that's always because some family not friends with some kid
has one and they're not for adults, and they're not
for you know where USC you know you can take
a more and go approach and have more. There's more,

(02:05:44):
there's more, something to read in the UFC magazine.

Speaker 9 (02:05:47):
Yeah, yeah, all right, let's move to the next call here. Thanks,
thanks Stephen for your call. As always, Let's go to
Erico nine one er please stay hym and where you're from?

Speaker 3 (02:06:00):
DONI, Hey, how y'all doing a good animal.

Speaker 9 (02:06:02):
What's on your mind today?

Speaker 7 (02:06:03):
Okay?

Speaker 26 (02:06:04):
Yes, okay, Now what I think about this right here?

Speaker 3 (02:06:08):
Okay, from what I.

Speaker 26 (02:06:09):
Was looking at recently, I'm starting to believe that the
TNA TV title is more of a belt that more
for unhappy and you know pretty much unhappy. Uh you
know former champions FNC and he right now, because I
dealt with held by mostly by unhappy champions other than
you know.

Speaker 7 (02:06:29):
Rob Terry and Eric Young.

Speaker 26 (02:06:32):
So which'all think about that, you know, being held most
about her satisfying former champions you I.

Speaker 7 (02:06:38):
Just say that if someone's holding a belt in TNA,
there's a very good chance that they're an unhappy champion.

Speaker 3 (02:06:45):
So the yeah, I'm not gonna make a RNA right now,
that the Moraley c NA right now, I.

Speaker 7 (02:06:52):
Hear constantly compared to the end days of w g W,
and I don't hear compared favorable anyway. So the odds
are whatever belt you're talking about, that person is not
completely happy. I don't think Rob man Dama was completely happy.
I don't think any of them are.

Speaker 9 (02:07:08):
Yeah, yeah, but I mean creating titles to keep people
happy who think they should have the world title is
really bad business because it doesn't work and it's just
waters down, you know, your title situation. And I meant
putting value back on that belt. And as I wrote
last week's Progressing Torture newsletter cover story, I'm for making
Randy Orton a champion and having them hold on to

(02:07:30):
that title for a year and a half or two
years without losing it. The stats that I cited in
that cover story even as I was looking them up,
blew me away. How long it's been since someone's held
the title for one year? And you have I mean
the frequency of title changes since it start happening during
the Monday night work period. It actually happened at the
at the start of pay per view. That's when things
really changed in the late eighties in terms of how

(02:07:50):
often titles changed hands. And I think I think they
need fewer titles, and I think they need to change
hands at least at times much less often. You know,
there's there's time to have rapid fire title changes to
tell a story, but not constantly. And I think you
need to have a control group, so to speak, with
someone holding the title for a year or two, to
give meaning again to those titles and not make it

(02:08:11):
seem like it's just something that everybody gets. I hannible.
Any follow up from you before we move on?

Speaker 26 (02:08:17):
Okay, yes, you know the next clearly? Is it true
that aj Stout monster man didn't want to join CNA
because and not just only money issues, because he didn't
want a job to a J.

Speaker 9 (02:08:27):
Stells Bruce.

Speaker 3 (02:08:29):
Have you heard that the monstro man Randy Savash.

Speaker 9 (02:08:33):
That back when he was negotiating with TNA, he didn't
want to join because he didn't want a job to
AJ Stouts.

Speaker 7 (02:08:39):
No, I don't think that has anything to do with anything.

Speaker 3 (02:08:41):
I don't think.

Speaker 7 (02:08:42):
I think the Monstra man had stopped doing the things
that made it look like the monster man, and he
didn't want to He's been very careful with his public appearances.
He didn't want to appear in public. And they begged
him and beg him and beg him and dag him
and threw enough money at him that he did the
rip off appearance that he made at that bank of you.
But I don't think A Stouts had anything to do
with it.

Speaker 9 (02:08:59):
Yeah, all right, Hannibal, thanks for your call. When I'll
move to aeric code four zero four.

Speaker 3 (02:09:04):
Thanks A.

Speaker 9 (02:09:04):
Collins, Please state to your name and where you're from.

Speaker 22 (02:09:06):
Hey, guys, is in Elliott from Atlanta?

Speaker 9 (02:09:09):
Hey Eliott, what's on your mind today?

Speaker 22 (02:09:11):
Feel free to take this in the after show. I
was just thinking about this. Can you guys think of
any time, you know, recent or a long time ago,
where a rep made a call accidentally where it was
the outcome was booked otherwise, you know, there's there's a
lot of near falls and whatnot.

Speaker 3 (02:09:30):
And I was just wondering if there's anything.

Speaker 22 (02:09:32):
That you're aware of where you know they accidentally counted
to three and called the match where the outcome.

Speaker 9 (02:09:38):
Was was booked. Otherwise, sure, sure, good question, abrus any
any memories of that?

Speaker 3 (02:09:43):
You know?

Speaker 7 (02:09:44):
I time usles was this question? Then when I repeated it,
if Laller throws.

Speaker 3 (02:09:48):
This to me, I'm gonna is so wrong.

Speaker 9 (02:09:55):
Last difficult question I thought, I thought you might have one.

Speaker 7 (02:09:59):
I I think just happened a few times in w
w A where in some good card matches. This is
as generic as I can get. I think it has
happened a little bit, and they've they've either the referee
got in trouble or the wrestler got in trouble, but
then they decided the referee should just call. You know,
you should do what logically a referee would do. But
it hasn't happened in any big matches and on the

(02:10:22):
major stage in years.

Speaker 11 (02:10:24):
No.

Speaker 7 (02:10:24):
And I can remember at the specific time your.

Speaker 9 (02:10:28):
Arm don't don't eat up the rest of the show
with a long winded answer. That the non answer, that's
just thing over and over and you don't know the
answer Bruce. My short answer is I don't.

Speaker 7 (02:10:37):
I should do what you do and throw it and
throw it back at you.

Speaker 3 (02:10:41):
You're right, I don't. You can.

Speaker 9 (02:10:43):
You can instant message me and say wait, I don't
know the answer, don't ask me. But I can't predict
what you know and what you don't anyway, Thanks for
staring trouble, Ellie. I can't think of a specific instance
where there was a major match where the rest screwed up.
I have seen cases where the rest stopped at two,
thinking the match what I'm supposed to end, and he
stops even though the shoulders are clearly down, and then

(02:11:03):
he doesn't thing where he rubs his hand on the
mast and say no, no, they're threw them under the shoulders,
or no, it's only a two count, and the match
stops in time briefly, and then everyone has to kind
of pick up the pieces and keep going because someone
forgot to kick out, or someone thoughts the two count
was really the one count. So that's happened, but it
usually leads to an awkward moment, but not the wrong finish. Okay, Elliot,

(02:11:24):
anything else for us?

Speaker 3 (02:11:26):
No? Cool?

Speaker 9 (02:11:28):
Thanks?

Speaker 13 (02:11:30):
All right?

Speaker 26 (02:11:31):
Up?

Speaker 9 (02:11:31):
Next seven O three. Thanks for calling please state your
name and where you're from.

Speaker 27 (02:11:35):
Larry from Atlanta. I have definitely got to send you
guys some batch of Mania videos where at least the
reps blown TNA finishes. There was one with like Glenn
GILBERTI and Jeff Jarrett I think Shane Douglass and Raven
or something like that. It was pretty bad, but I'll
send that. Yeah, no problem. I didn't really have a question.

(02:11:57):
I just I really love the to talk about botches.
I think I saw tens On do a moon salt
on Uji Nagata knock him out, and that's screwed up
to finish anyway, let me.

Speaker 3 (02:12:09):
Ask you real quick.

Speaker 27 (02:12:10):
Yeah, let me ask real quick. Maybe an after show
you can cover wrestlers screwing up finishes. But my girlfriend
is saying that she doesn't think Daniel Brian's personality is
getting over.

Speaker 3 (02:12:21):
I think he's getting over. Just fine.

Speaker 27 (02:12:23):
What what do you guys think, Like, do you think
they're going to turn him or anything like that. It's
it's way too soon. I don't know why she's asking.

Speaker 9 (02:12:30):
All right, Larry, say, thanks for your call, Thanks for question.
I think I think Daniel Brian's push and group. We
talked about this actually in the BF the audio show
a little bit, but I think to push started off
with the wrong motivation. But it might actually I would
say backfire and WWE in the sense that Brian Danielson
or Daniel Brian gets over because of it. But I
think having Michael Cole screwed up as its characters right

(02:12:51):
now rip on Daniel Brian actually makes him more popular
with fans. And I think, you know, I'm not. I'm
not happy with every aspect, aren't that they've done with him?
But I think he has a chance to get over
as kind of the exception of the rule, the average
every day guy who people say can't should be here
because it's at the larger than life universe and he's
too ordinary. But he's just so damn good and fans
know it. Your quick thoughts on that, Yeah, I think.

Speaker 7 (02:13:15):
That he shows this charisma when he comes comes and
wrestles and fans get behind him. When he won that title,
he was standing in the ring. He has charisma. Do
people respond to him winning? Yeah? Do people care about him?

Speaker 11 (02:13:26):
Yeah?

Speaker 7 (02:13:26):
I think he's got charisma. He doesn't have a star
of a great book and got charisma. He has fighter charisma.
That's a good thing, all right.

Speaker 1 (02:13:37):
Tomorrow invite you to email the show with feedback or
questions or comments. That email address is Wade Keller Podcast
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You can follow us on Twitter at PW Torch and

(02:13:59):
follow me at the Wadekeller That's at PW Torch and
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Speaker 28 (02:14:07):
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Speaker 1 (02:14:37):
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