15 YRS AGO LIVECASTS: Could Cena be mystery G.M.? Might SD go live? Why didn't TNA just have RVD lose the title in the ring? Miz or Del Rio?

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
One benefit of VIP membership is access to our back
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(00:43):
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Speaker 2 (01:48):
Now, PW Torch and Speaker bring you the Wade Keller
Pro Wrestling Podcast.

Speaker 1 (01:57):
On today's Wagekeller Pro Wrestling Podcasting, you a double hatter
of PW Torch live casts from fifteen years ago. This week,
beginning with the September twenty ninth, twenty ten episode, James
Caldwell and PW's Torch Nostalgias specialist Brian Hoops discussed with
live callers Tuesday Nights NXT NXT viewership hitting a series
low on the way out, what was wrong with WWE's

(02:19):
raw product at the time, including a number of solutions
offered by callers on how to fix it, whether the
raw GM reveal could be John Cena, could a John
Cena heal turn help business? Also oversaturation in the marketplace?
Twenty ten draft picks t Anda's They Be being a
typical nineteen ninety storyline twist that doesn't really work in

(02:40):
twenty ten and more. And then the September thirtieth, twenty
ten episode features me Wade Keller taking calls for the
full hour on a wide range of topics, including WWE's
women's division, a revisiting of the Brett hartvinsick Mann relationship,
whether John Cena might be the raw GM could SmackDown
Go Live, what was wrong with WWE's product at that time,

(03:01):
why didn't teenage just have RVD lose the title rather
than run the angle where he was stripped of it,
how to make pay per views special again? And more
so a wide range of topics here in over two
hours of content from fifteen years ago. This week on
Today's Way Kellor Parsing podcast for Friday, October third, twenty
twenty five.

Speaker 2 (03:20):
You're listening to the PW Torch Live cast. PW Torch
Assistant Editor James Caldwell hosting today on Wednesday, September twenty ninth,
twenty ten, and I'm joined today by Torch Nostalgia columnists
Brian Hoops.

Speaker 3 (03:34):
Brian, how are you doing today?

Speaker 4 (03:36):
I am doing great?

Speaker 5 (03:37):
How about yourself?

Speaker 3 (03:39):
Excellent?

Speaker 2 (03:40):
Got a lot of news coming up in the last
twenty minutes or so. Just posted the news and the
Glance with all the latest headlines from the last twenty
four hours on Pbtorch dot com. Just got NXT viewership.
Don't have the official rating, which has been a story
of the week so far on our end, but the
viewership number was below one million viewers for the first time.

(04:03):
So find a great way to go out with the
bang on sci Fi for NXT, right, Yeah.

Speaker 4 (04:08):
Yeah, you couldn't expect much less with that poor of
a show that you're gonna get bad ratings.

Speaker 5 (04:14):
But you know, there's been a trend here in.

Speaker 3 (04:15):
The last week or two weeks.

Speaker 4 (04:17):
Ratings for just about everything as far as A SmackDown
and Raw NXT have all been steadily declining. I think
the USC Countdown show did an all time low rating
last week with Frankmuir and Merco Crowcroft. The d highlighted
I think that was a point two five rating, which is,
like I said, at all time low. So really seen
a decline in TV viewership here for wrestling and MMA shows.

Speaker 2 (04:43):
Do you think it's oversaturation? Is the programming you know,
fallities and premieres. Is it just those respective products just
kind of hitting a low period right now?

Speaker 3 (04:52):
More people are interested.

Speaker 2 (04:54):
In the NFL or the event or Dance with the Stars.
What do you think it is right now?

Speaker 4 (05:01):
You know, I think it's a combination of a lot
of things here.

Speaker 5 (05:03):
Oversaturation is a big.

Speaker 4 (05:05):
Thing as far as wrestling and MMA goes. You know,
I talked with a lot of guys who are at
one time huge MMA fans, watched every episode of The
Ultimate Fighter, watch a lot of the Unleashed, and watched
Servery pay per view.

Speaker 5 (05:18):
Now it just.

Speaker 4 (05:19):
Seems like a lot of the product is getting so
watered down. They'll still turn out for le Brock Lesner.

Speaker 5 (05:24):
Fights, so they're or GSP fights.

Speaker 4 (05:26):
But you know, when you got Frank Mirr and Crocous
headlining and you just kind of shrugged your shoulders and shoulders,
it's not a big deal to these casual fans anymore.
Some of them are starting to lose a little bit
of interest in the luster of the novelty has seen.
MMA Fight has kind of gone away to a big extent,
you know, and the same thing as happening here in wrestling.

(05:48):
You know, the paper you by rates for WW and
TNA are at some dangerously low levels and they continue
to hover in these areas that they've been at, and
now ratings are starting to slip a little bit as well.
It just shows I think an overall lack of product,
uh and interest in the product. You know, I have
not been watching an XC for the last couple of weeks.

(06:09):
It's worthless as a show to me as far as
what I would want out of wrestling, just there's no
redeeming values that that I would be interested in watching.
I'm certainly much more interested in watching an NFL game
or some something else that. You know, you have so
many more choices anymore. In fact, if you you know,
if you like wrestling, like nostalgia wrestling, there's classics on
demand channel that's available, tons of stuff on YouTube, and

(06:31):
there's just so many other things going on that unless
you have a product that really interests somebody, they're not
going to go out of their way to watch it.

Speaker 2 (06:39):
Yeah, last night's The n XTC Show was the the
epitome of a worthless hour of wrestling. It's just it
had no redeeming quality to it. It wasn't it wasn't
so bad that it was entertaining it. You know, there
was no CM punk and even Michael Cole's uh sort
of like uh, you know, parody of the product or

(07:01):
ripping the product that didn't even seem interesting or entertaining.
It was just sort of eye rolling, so that that
seemingly I mean, I disagree on so many levels with
Michaicole's you know, quote unquote characters, especially as lead announcer
for Raw, but even that character has become it's not
as fresh or interesting as it once was. Now it's

(07:21):
just sort of he's just ripping stuff because well he can.
On n XT So, I mean that show last time,
I mean, there was two contests about thirty minutes of
video packages or promotional plugs for Legendary, which is not
gonna sell. It's okay, NOBE, it's not gonna sell. And
you did it in theaters. I doubt it's going to

(07:41):
on DVD. Maybe it'll sell the red box location, your
local McDonald's for people when it's been a bump to
rent it. But you know, I mean that show last
night was just I mean just it captured I understand,
the lame dunge show and nobody's watching it as we
see by the viewership below a million for the first
time NXT's history.

Speaker 3 (08:01):
Just captured me.

Speaker 2 (08:02):
The lack of interest w's product right now.

Speaker 3 (08:04):
And there's so many.

Speaker 2 (08:05):
Different things you can point to as to why, uh,
why what they're doing is not working, why it's not
connecting the audience, why they're rating on Monday with lowest
of the year, lowest in over two years, going back
to September of eight, right. I mean, I made a
list of five things that that are really bothering me
with the product right now, and I think two big

(08:26):
things that Raw illustrated so clearly on Monday was and
it just promo with the Mystery GM the voice of
the Mystery GM uh for for a lot of different reasons,
but one that he came to mind was him acknowledging
sort of how lame this was.

Speaker 3 (08:45):
You know, he talked about uh, you know, he you know,
we used to.

Speaker 2 (08:48):
Have Austin and and and McMahon. You know, we've gone
from Austin McMahon to me talking to a computer.

Speaker 3 (08:54):
That's serving as raw GM.

Speaker 2 (08:56):
Okay, you know, as if you were at home, you
understand that, you you get that. Okay, this isn't the
greatest segment in the world, but if Dot Toby's presenting it,
it should be presented as the greatest segment in the world.
And you shouldn't be sitting there mocking your own segment.

Speaker 3 (09:12):
I mean, I don't know why they do this. It
exposes your.

Speaker 2 (09:16):
Product, and I mean, in Extin's been doing the same
thing with Michael carl and Michael Colole's been doing the
same thing with baby fakes, like on The Hard Dynasty,
and Daniel Brian is just mocking the characters. Okay, well
why are they on your show? Why should I watch
this show? Of these characters who you say suck are
on your product. The second thing, and I'll get your
reaction to that too, Brian, is the tag cuitle situation.

(09:39):
They threw out a match between The Hard Dynasty and
Drew mcintyron Kobe Rhads with no hype, no advanced explanation.
I mean, obviously they hinted at it on last week's Raw, but.

Speaker 3 (09:50):
There was no hype. In this week's show, Drew mcintyren.

Speaker 2 (09:53):
Cody Roads being on raw felt it had no special
value to it. It did not feel special at all. It
felt like just two guys who showed up with a
couple of belts around their waist who just came on
wrong to have a match. And during said match, the
announcers talked about Cody Rose grooming tips for the entire
length of the match. And as they're reaching the climax,

(10:14):
the titles are on the line, the titles are at steak,
Michael Cole is still talking about grooming tips and that
just pissed me off. It just it just frustrated me
so much, just the lack of emphasis on titles and
crossover promotion and you're mocking your own product. And I
just threw my hands in here. I said, this show
is garbage. And those are two examples of why no.

Speaker 3 (10:34):
One is watching this show.

Speaker 2 (10:35):
Why, I mean, why w W hacks go back to
the joint board and fixed it. So I didn't realize
they had a random me it's not even TNA day,
but you always always thought out at me, so right,
you know, what's the reaction to those two things?

Speaker 3 (10:51):
And Ron.

Speaker 4 (10:52):
You know, you know, in business one on one class,
they teach you if you find something that's successful and
you emulate it and kind of do the same thing.
If you want to learn how to be successful, you
follow someone else who's had success. So, you know, you
look at what in America or in culture right now,
what is successful and what's working, and and try and

(11:14):
emulate that type of product of that type of marketing. Obviously,
the NFL is very successful. They're having record ratings for
their football games, with the Vikings and the Saints on
the highest graded game ever for a Thursday night. The
Packers and the Bears Monday night was another very high
rateed game, one of the highest they've ever had, you know,
And why is that, Well, they're they're they're creating superstars.

(11:35):
You know, you got Brett fav out there. You've got
Aaron Rodgers. You know, they've got stars at each of
these teams. They've got rivalries. You've got the Bears Packers,
You've got the Vikings Packers. You got fire versus the Packers.
You got all those type of rivalries. Those things work,
and in fact that you know what wins and losses matter.
You know, the Bears and Packers were both going undefeated,
and so the NFL and ESPN and the NFL network,

(11:58):
they all push these things. These are the big storylines,
and things matter. Wins and losses matter. You don't want
to lose a game and early in the season because
then you're you know, now the Bears are only undefeated
team in the NFC. So now you've got another story
coming out of this game. And all these things are
what matters to America and to the public, and it's
working in UFC. Brock Lesner can have a loss, but

(12:20):
he comes back and he has a big rivalry with
Frank Miron does record business. Then you've got it. You know,
you've got some health issues, and you've got the sane
car Win coming up undefeated through the ranks and knocking
everybody out and never out of the first round. You've
got a great story, and you do huge pay per
view business here, you know.

Speaker 5 (12:38):
And so you've got all.

Speaker 4 (12:39):
These things that are working.

Speaker 5 (12:41):
Where is TNA.

Speaker 4 (12:42):
And ww going. You know, you've got Edge talking to
a computer. Now, what type of rivalry is that? And
you know it's just stupid and ridiculous. I turned it off,
you know when I saw that as just why would
you want to waste your time watching that? Or if
you were watching with somebody who wasn't wrestling fan, you're
you're gonna think that's a you know, an embarrassment I

(13:03):
felt anyway, you know, so where do they have to go? Well,
you mentioned the team the tag team titles. Push this,
this is a big match. Make it mean something. Make
your tag titles mean something that the Tag Team Champions
coming on Raw and defending the belts is a big matchup.
I just always hated it when they announced matches at
the beginning of the show, or they you know, one

(13:26):
guy has the ability to make a match for himself
and somebody else at the beginning of the show. You know,
you don't see Peyton Manning coming at the at the
beginning of NFL in one saying and just deciding his
team is going to take on the Houston Texans of
the Blue. These schedules are made up far in advance
and then then everybody's hyped it and they sold tickets
and everything is built around that key matchup. Because their

(13:48):
divisional rivals, Wrestling I think could have a rebound here.
But they've got to get back to some of these
promoting basics, get a you know, get a more highly
intelligent booking philosophy. Promote tag team as an important function,
especially your cake team title holders. When they come on
WRAW or they come on SmackDown, it's a big deal
because that means the titles are gonna be defended against

(14:09):
their number one challengers. And it can't be a two
or three minute squash match. It needs to be competitive match.
And because wins and losses have to.

Speaker 2 (14:17):
Count exactly, it would require a completely different approach.

Speaker 3 (14:22):
From NO to B.

Speaker 2 (14:22):
It would require long term booking. It would require announcing
those matchups ahead of time and allowing the audience to
anticipate so much. What you said is built on anticipation.
You know, during this week and you know for me,
it's it's Oklahoma and.

Speaker 3 (14:35):
Texas on Saturday.

Speaker 2 (14:37):
You know, it's one of those matches you insinicipate every year,
and now it comes down to this week and you're
anticipating it. No, it's not as good a match up
because unfortunately it textas lost on Saturday, but you know it's.

Speaker 3 (14:46):
One of those people can anticipated in.

Speaker 2 (14:47):
And w B and TMA have lost the art of
anticipation as one of their tools in the toolbox. I
mean this Thursday on Impact Tomorrow night, they're gonna have
a cage match with I believe it's Kurd angling Abyss.

Speaker 5 (15:00):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (15:01):
There was there's no anticipation for that. They didn't announce
it on last Thursday show. It was even pre tape
three weeks in advance. They didn't announce it. They didn't
hype it, they didn't talk about it. Nobody mentioned it.
We're just gonna throw out a cage match which went
Angle and Abyss. Unless you get a big deal. A
bit is a monster who destroyed RVD. He's a guy
who you know, you know, in terms of the storyline,

(15:21):
should be in jail with all the things that he's done.
And you have Kurt Angle, who's in the teen title
matches at your biggest pick review of the year. WHOA,
that's a jeopardy situation for one of your top baby stage.
Hey maybe we should hype that. You know, it's just
these things that I don't understand why promotions don't get this.
It's it's just mind modeling. Then you give away stuff
without thinking about, wow, we really could do.

Speaker 3 (15:42):
Something with us. This is a special matchup.

Speaker 1 (15:46):
So that's just uh, you can support us on Patreon
and get these shows with ads and plugs removed, the
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(16:09):
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even more benefits through Patreon.

Speaker 3 (16:20):
I think I think goo ahead, right.

Speaker 4 (16:23):
You know, a lot of this really started back in
the in the nineties and the Wrestle Monday Night War
type eras between WWF and Nitrol. You know, you had
Eric Bushawf writing the program on the way to the
arena and the airplane and then changing it when he
got backstage because guys were unhappy with the direction or
whatever it was. And I think that was an era
that at that time it worked because of the surprise

(16:45):
factor when the two shows were competing, but eventually it
led to a big downfall in the business and then
we have not changed our ways. They're still doing stuff
off the cup. I still don't think they know who
the Heel general manager is here. They just came up
with this storyline and they've got all kinds of logicals
running through this thing, and eventually, when they give the payoff,
you're not gonna be able to look back and it's

(17:07):
not gonna be able to make any sense to us
because they don't know where they're at with us. I
made the case for Jim Cornett becoming a book or
again of TNA instead of Paul Hayman because it's pretty
obvious team and isn't coming in. And just from the
standpoint that when when Cornette was given a chance to
run a territory organization, he was very detail orientated. He

(17:29):
knew what would draw, He booked those angles that would draw,
He did gimmick matches, he did the stipulations. But they
all meant something and they built up towards something and
some payoff in the end, and we're really missing that
right now. I feel in both both wrestling organizations from
the standpoint that we have writers who are giving scripts,

(17:49):
you know, writing out scripts for guys and going week
to week on trying to write almost a soap opera
type television instead of selling like the NFL does, rivalries
like the college football does with this big rivalry weekend
that they have once in a while, or the big
tournaments that are coming up, or conference play. You don't
have anything that really matters anymore in wrestling.

Speaker 6 (18:11):
You know.

Speaker 4 (18:11):
Now our angles are Maurice and Debiafi you know, having
a two or three week romance on air that absolutely
had no chemistry, and now they're gonna do this big
angle where you know, some revealed they're gonna have a
split and and you know, nobody cares. And you get
Edge talking to a computer and nobody cares, and it's
just stuff that doesn't matter to wrestling fans. I think

(18:34):
wrestling fans want to see wrestling. They want to see
who's better in the ring. They want to have matches
that matter and wins the losses that matter.

Speaker 2 (18:41):
Yeah, they're trying to feed the monster with a storyline
twists and the monsters rejecting it, and in the monster
be in the audience. You know, the audience is rejecting
the latest twist, or they'll they'll get a little bit
excited for a second and then it's just okay, well
that's that's done. What's next And they don't have what's next.
That's when you got to go back to the basics.
That's been obvious a long time for both promotions.

Speaker 3 (19:01):
So good discussion to start the show. So i'll good,
do we have a bunch to get to go to
be TNA.

Speaker 2 (19:07):
Related on phone calls. We'll also talk about the draft
that we have had on pdtorch dot com, a sort
of our annual fantasy draft on who you would.

Speaker 3 (19:16):
Start a promotion with.

Speaker 2 (19:17):
H Randy Orton was selected number one this year. So
if you want to chime in with your pick, or
if you if you want to debate whether Orton's number
one pick, will only take phone calls on that.

Speaker 3 (19:28):
The number to call is.

Speaker 2 (19:29):
Six four, six seven two one nine A two eight.
Let's go ahead and get to our first caller today.
This is from the five oh five area code.

Speaker 3 (19:37):
Five oh five. Welcome to the show. Please say Triname
and where you're from? Hey guys, how you doing this
out venue from Albuquerque?

Speaker 7 (19:43):
How you guys doing?

Speaker 8 (19:44):
There's Anne?

Speaker 3 (19:44):
What's going on today? Hey Vidio? Good?

Speaker 7 (19:48):
Couple of things there two things two main Mannaie points
I wanted to first and foremost, China, what you guys
are just talking about as far as the basic promotion
of what, you know, what wrestling should be and what
could be and this this week in wrestling just raw
n XT just been so sorry. It's just this point
where it's not wrestling. It's like you said, it's like

(20:09):
a soap opera to a point where the wrestlers aren't
even wrestling to tell the stories. We have creative telling stories.
So I think UH does agree with you guys on
that point. The second thing I wanted to bring up,
and it was actually yesterday in the VIP after show
with Wade and UH and Jason, Yeah, they did talk
about Tommy Dreamer and they were saying how he wasn't

(20:32):
picked in any other drafts and then so I kind
of want to talk about that and get your guys'
opinion on what Dreamer's done, uh, you know, essentially from
the revamp of VCW and then of course him coming
into TNA. My thoughts on a real quick I think
he's been I wouldn't pick him in that top ten draft,
but I wouldn't count him out. I mean, I think
the guy does a really good job of putting guys

(20:52):
over with his credibility. I think he's done that a
little bit. He's been in Teenable a lot when he
was in the UH you know, the the rev have
a VCW. I think of the Maze and Zach Ryder
and a couple of the guys just just off the top.

Speaker 3 (21:06):
What do you guys.

Speaker 7 (21:06):
Feel about Dreamer and his contributions to the wrestling business?
And then I'll get to my second question.

Speaker 2 (21:13):
Sure, good question, Anie, Brian, go and take that first.

Speaker 5 (21:16):
Yeah, good, good question.

Speaker 4 (21:19):
I think you asked first of all about what the
direction of wrestling should be or house should be booked.
You know, you go back to what fans want to see,
and they want to see two guys settle their differences,
whether it's over a title or over a grudge or
something else inside a ring, to see who the better
guy is. And you do that by building up their

(21:41):
personalities first of all through interviews and promos. And once
you've established who the heel and who the faces, then
a lot of times your fans will side with one
person or the other. You give them a reason to
restl whether it be a championship or number one contender
or whatever.

Speaker 5 (21:58):
It is. Then you let them resple.

Speaker 4 (22:00):
You know it's it's not complex, very simple, or it
should be very simple, and actually simpler the better, and
when they get inside the ring, you can see actually
who the better man is. And at that point, you know,
you settle your feud. You move on to another area,
and hopefully you're creating stars along the way that guys

(22:20):
that can draw money for you. And that's where we
lead into Tommy Dreamer at this stage of the game
in twenty ten, is he a guy that can draw
money for your company? I don't think he can, you know,
I think is You know, fifteen years ago they did
a great angle, great two to three year storyline with
him unable to beat Raven until he finally ended up

(22:41):
capturing the title for Raven in ECW. But you know
that was nineteen ninety five, nineteen ninety six, that was
fifteen years ago. I really don't want to see Tommy
Dreamer wrestle. I definitely don't want to see wrestle for
a championship match.

Speaker 5 (22:52):
You know, he's he's a.

Speaker 4 (22:53):
Little bit older guy who's given a lot to the business.
It's time at this point for him to move behind
the scenes and even though he's he's done okay in
his TNA run, probably better than I expected he would do.
His booking, long term booking of OVW. It was a
disaster when he was down there. I don't think he's

(23:13):
got a lot of longer term ideas on how to
build characters and build stars other than this ECW angle
and using him as a focal point.

Speaker 5 (23:24):
So I think there's you know, if you had a
draft pick.

Speaker 4 (23:27):
You know, he's not in my top ten, and he
probably not in my top fifty even at this point
of guys who you would draft for your promotion.

Speaker 2 (23:35):
I mean, I see a Dreamer of having some value
as a utility guy. Obviously, I don't see him anywhere
near anybody's top of the car. I think his run
in TNA is kind of exposed. I think a lot
of people go to TNA and kind.

Speaker 3 (23:48):
Of are exposed. It's just, you know, TNA is booking is.

Speaker 2 (23:53):
So bad that it sucks people into that black hole
and then they come out just you know, just looking unmarketable.
And that happens with a lot of talent. It's happened
Nick Foley in DNA. I think Dreamer has some utility value,
though I mean, it kind of depends on the situation
the heel. I mean, I think Vinnie brought up a

(24:14):
good point that the program that.

Speaker 3 (24:16):
He had with Zach Ryder.

Speaker 2 (24:17):
I thought that was a pretty decent program on ww's
ECW program. So there's some value in helping him elevate
some some younger heels just because dreamers. You know, he
plays a good baby's face.

Speaker 3 (24:29):
It's a bit.

Speaker 2 (24:29):
Oversold and overdone at times most of the time, but
I think he's got utility value. Like I said, Bryan,
is he had a top fifty pick, Probably not in
twenty ten, but I would have him on my roster
if if you were to come in on the chief
if I was running a promotion. So that's kind of
you know, he's kind of a guy who's been exposed
in twenty ten, didn't really set the world on fire

(24:51):
for drying get USA earlier this year.

Speaker 3 (24:55):
So you know, utility guy at best. Vinnie, what was
your your other.

Speaker 7 (24:58):
Question you had, Well, yeah, you know, I agree with
you guys one hundred percent. As far as drafting, I
just think he has he has he has a lot
to offer with his unselfish view on him being uh,
you know, a a player to help the younger guys out,
and I think that's always somebod I've admired about him,
and that's why I'm a fan of his. Just just
a real good sense of not being so selfish with

(25:22):
his his career, you know, and titles and things like that.
But another thing, my other question there kind of gonna
stop the question here so Greg can help.

Speaker 3 (25:30):
Me out with this. Well, I'm looking through the back
issues of.

Speaker 7 (25:33):
The Torch and James, I don't know if he can
get back to me or maybe in the VIP if
you guys can go on later. I'm trying to look
for the time frame where they had the huge, huge,
huge angle with with Mike Ausoin bringing the Belt to
w CW. I kind of want to get like some
backstage info on that.

Speaker 3 (25:48):
I couldn't find it.

Speaker 7 (25:49):
I don't know if I was just h if I
couldn't find it, if you know, it wasn't looking in
the right place. But if there's a way you can
pinpoint that just kind of give me a little backstory
of what exactly happened at that point if you can,
and put me out hope for that, And thank you
guys very much for taking my call to day.

Speaker 2 (26:04):
Sure, thanks for calling in, Vinnie. Brian, do you remember
that that time through? Was that ninety nine to two thousands?
Was at the was that a ones? Do you remember that?

Speaker 4 (26:12):
I can't remember the exact time. I think it was
around that ninety nine time frame, and the backstory was awesome.
Had the title uh and was given an offer by
Eric Bischoff to jump to w CW UH and they
worked out a deal where he would leave the company
with the belt, but it would come back at a

(26:34):
later time and drop the title. So he he he,
you know, came in was a no position where he
could match money offers.

Speaker 5 (26:41):
He knew guys were leaving.

Speaker 4 (26:42):
But he just wanted to make the best of a
bad situation where yes, I possible was going to go
and uh he you know, worked out a deal where
he would come back and lose the title cleanly, to
put someone else over with the belt so that he didn't,
you know, just didn't show up on Nitro with his
belt and make it think it seem like his champion
that jumped, even though that's exactly what happened.

Speaker 2 (27:05):
Yeah, I believe that should be in for Vinnie. I
believe I should be in the Torch back issue section.
More details on that probably I, like Brian said, like
probably the nineteen ninety nine time frame perraft the two
thousand back issues.

Speaker 3 (27:15):
But we'll try to get some more info on that.
Pass along to Vinnie.

Speaker 2 (27:19):
Good call, and again, if you're listening to the P
to B Torch Live cast, and this is Torch aspecific
enter James Caldwell hosting today with Torch Nostalagia, call mist
Brian Hoops.

Speaker 3 (27:30):
So, yeah, like Vinnie brought a sort.

Speaker 2 (27:32):
Of a nostalgia topic, so it's a good day to
bring that up with Brian on the show today. And
of course we're talking W B P and a current
evince the draft that we have on P to B
torch dot com this week.

Speaker 3 (27:44):
Let's go to our next call.

Speaker 2 (27:45):
This is the ninety three to one area code nine
three one.

Speaker 3 (27:49):
Welcome to the show. Please stay maam where you're from?

Speaker 6 (27:52):
Hey guys, heans from Tennessee.

Speaker 3 (27:54):
Hey Instid here from what's on your mind today?

Speaker 6 (27:57):
Well, I just too quick thing. So I wanted to
mention that they did actually mention the d the tag
team title match on Raw, but that was when Typing
Kids mentioned it while Michael Cole was talking over him, right.

Speaker 2 (28:10):
Yeah, that was the week before and they didn't it,
would you know? Bogle my mind, which why DIDN'TY hype
that during the actual show on Monday or on the
website since I mean, I thought I missed something because
I'm pretty sure the announced that, but god me drew
no attention to it during the week lead after raw,
So I said, well, was he not supposed to say that?
And I hadn't seen uh I didn't remember what the

(28:32):
spoilers were because I'd read them, you know, that Monday,
and then forgot about them. Uh So I I just
thought maybe they weren't even have the match, you know.
Uh So that exactly where.

Speaker 3 (28:43):
Your point, but go ahead, go ahead?

Speaker 6 (28:44):
And I thought it was a mistake because they also
got a matched on snack on too and I was
there thinking exactly maybe he just got.

Speaker 2 (28:51):
Nixede That's what I thought too.

Speaker 3 (28:53):
That's also effected is yeah, go ahead.

Speaker 6 (28:57):
But my my main question is what's Yeah, what's possibility
is SmackDown out drawing were all this week? And if
that happens, how bad.

Speaker 3 (29:06):
Is that for WWE?

Speaker 2 (29:08):
Interesting question something that's kind of been in my mind
a little bit this week. I mean, I'm predicking about
a two point five or SmackDown with that live from here,
which would be.

Speaker 3 (29:19):
Pretty close to what Rod did. Uh.

Speaker 2 (29:21):
Brian, do you think Smackram has a shot to outdraw Wraw.

Speaker 3 (29:24):
The ratings this week?

Speaker 4 (29:25):
Well, if they're gonna do it, this is probably the
week to do it, because you know, a live show
theoretically should should give you a little bit better ratings.
They've been hyping it like crazy, uh, in which they
needed to do to get the fans to move over
and be accustomed to doing it. So I think that'll
help them out as well. And just the fact that uh,
you know, they're going to be on a program and

(29:46):
be there solid every week and not be shifted around
because of preempted because of local baseball, football, basketball games
or whatever should help out the ratings longer term, I
think it's pretty unlikely they're gonna go high enough in
a rating to beat Raw, But like I said, if
if there's.

Speaker 5 (30:03):
Gonna be a week to do it, this would be
the week.

Speaker 4 (30:05):
Now, if they were on a different night of the week,
maybe at Thursday night, they would probably have better ratings
on a better shot of beaten Raw.

Speaker 9 (30:13):
But you know, I could.

Speaker 4 (30:14):
Certainly see them getting over a two two two three
type rating.

Speaker 10 (30:20):
Need an extra dose of positivity in your wrestling podcasts,
will come join me Alan fourrel Over in the Progress
Paradise at Peter Torch VIP as we mask on the
bright side of wrestling and focus on some of the
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(30:40):
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(31:02):
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Speaker 3 (31:25):
Do you have any questions or follow up on that?

Speaker 5 (31:29):
Well?

Speaker 2 (31:30):
I had, Well, it's kind.

Speaker 6 (31:31):
Of a nostalgic question. I guess since much two thousand
and seven could be.

Speaker 2 (31:36):
All right, but.

Speaker 6 (31:37):
The the No Mercy pay per view in two thousand
and seven more triple h I had three different matches.

Speaker 3 (31:44):
Was that the way it was meant to happen?

Speaker 6 (31:46):
Or was there something else that happened No Mercy?

Speaker 3 (31:50):
Oh seven? Brian? Is that as I look it up?
Is that ringing bells for you?

Speaker 5 (31:55):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (31:55):
I'm gonna have to look it up too, because it
doesn't ring any bells for for me at this point.

Speaker 6 (32:02):
Uh, just with Brandy Orton and one against Dude Maga,
I believe.

Speaker 4 (32:07):
Yeah, he had a he had a match with Randy
Orton at the beginning of the show, one with New
Maga for the title, and then a last Man Steady
match which he lost to Randy Orton. It's it's not
ringing any bells. I think that was probably the way
it was supposed to go down. I'm trying to think
of what all happens surrounding under the backstory with this.

Speaker 2 (32:32):
Uh boy, I mean I've seen I know, I watched
it and I'm pretty sure I have a pay per
view report in the in the archives. Uh, I don't
remember this.

Speaker 3 (32:42):
And and.

Speaker 2 (32:44):
You know, one of the things that kind of gets
back to, oh, you know, and directly what we were talking
about a lot on the show, which is that WD
throws out these matchups with big stars with all these stipulations,
and no one remembers it. No one can point to, oh, yeah,
at so and so pay per view a couple of
years ago, remember that match, whereas you know, I mean

(33:06):
I just remember the the you know, the football scored
of certain games, you know, four or five years ago.
It's just when you have so many stars on paper
in pay per view matches with gimmicks and stipulations, it
waters down the idea of seeing big, big matchups and
big stars in pay per view matchups. It just waters
it down to where no no one remembers it. And

(33:28):
so yeah, you indirectly get me a great point. I
don't know what Brian and I were talking about. You know,
I think I think I don't remember this, but Brian,
I think part.

Speaker 4 (33:35):
Of this the James was, you know, Triple H probably
needed a storyline.

Speaker 5 (33:39):
Excuse to lose lose.

Speaker 4 (33:41):
That match at the end, you know, the end of
the nine if he's losing the title back, he wanted
the reason that you know, he had wrestled three matches
or two matches previously to the finals match and he
was tired or you know, that was his vowed as
far as doing the job and at the end of
the match here, but I think this was I think
there was an injury to Sina which created a vacant

(34:02):
title match and they ended up having a match between
Triple AHRM Andy Orton. But I'm not sure why they
came back at the end of the night to have
that again.

Speaker 2 (34:09):
Yeah, and that might be something research for you, and
is I remember I would like to know the backstory
on this. He's kind of one of those things where
you look at a pay per view, you know, four
or five years later, and you're saying, Okay, why was
the MVP vers Rick Flair the opening match at the
Royal Rumble? You know, one of those things where you're
trying to figure out what the context was at the
time for why that would happen. So this is one

(34:29):
of those things, like Brian said, which is why they
had Hunter wrestle three times. But I'm sure, there's a
perfectly good explanation.

Speaker 3 (34:36):
So I hope the answer your question is.

Speaker 2 (34:38):
That kind of satisfying.

Speaker 6 (34:41):
Yeah, pretty much. I thought it was interesting at the
time because I hadn't hadn't seen anything like that. But
if it was just to give him a reason a job,
that's pretty bad. But but I appreciate it.

Speaker 5 (34:53):
Guys.

Speaker 2 (34:54):
You guys have a good week, all right?

Speaker 5 (34:55):
Thanks?

Speaker 3 (34:55):
San think that good fall dish.

Speaker 2 (34:57):
Yeah, I imagine it was so related to not, you know,
having them get two wins and then have their final
loss and not really doing jobs. Uh, that would seem
to fit. So yeah, good point, said Brian. Let's go
ahead and grab another phone call. Let's go over to
the three four seven area code three four to seven.
Welcome to the show. Please say you name where you're from.

Speaker 11 (35:17):
Uh, from Chris and Brooklyn, New York. And actually I
want to just follow up on a point about the
declining w product. As far as NXT goes, I think
week one hundred percent with you guys. It's a problem
by NXT has done. This is a huge failure, is
that they throw these nobody's on television, nobody can goes about,
and they don't build an anticipation.

Speaker 2 (35:37):
Like in the old days, they.

Speaker 11 (35:37):
Would build up a guy like al Virtual Jill Real,
or let's say they want to bring in a j
Lee to replace Mickey James, you would build up with programs. Instead,
they take these unknown people and solve them on TV
in contests that don't have anything to do with wrestling,
and it actually doesn't make you know, doesn't It doesn't
have any redeeming quality in terms of creating anticipation to

(36:02):
see these people on television. It's like you tell them
on television in groups of nobody, and then you wonder
why they can't get over.

Speaker 2 (36:10):
Exactly right, you know, I mean that the next show.

Speaker 3 (36:13):
That they they bring them out there and they belittle them,
have the annalysis of a little of them, draw attension
of their flaws, mock each other.

Speaker 2 (36:23):
And there's no opportunity to really see, Okay, this is
kind of why I like this person, or no, this
is why I don't like this person, and not in
a this person's performance is terrible, but in a man
I really just don't like this person. She's a good
heel or man I really like or she's kind of spunky,
she's a good babyface, you know, like Chris said, there's
no opportunity to really make a decision on that and

(36:43):
anticipate seeing these people interact and have feuds and uh
and so.

Speaker 3 (36:48):
And resolve issues.

Speaker 2 (36:49):
And Chris kind of brings up a really interesting point,
which is something that I thought about during uh this
four week run for an next season three, which is
that all of these rookie divas seem like they are
replacing a former diva. I mean, and Chris touchdown with
Mickey James, I mean, a j to me is Mickey James,
and that's kind of their almost like a parody of

(37:11):
Mickey James. And you know, someone like EXAA is like
a combination of Maurice and Molina. I'm not Malina Marlena,
who is gold Dust his former valet. And that's kind
of one of the show feels like, which is just
sort of these knockoff characters replacing former characters with no
real hyah or backstree behind them. And so that's kind

(37:34):
of one of the other drawbacks to the show.

Speaker 3 (37:36):
Blant, what what's your reaction to what Chris.

Speaker 4 (37:37):
Had his SA Well, I think he's run on the money,
you know, and you look at he think he brought
up Alberto del Real. That's the guy that did have
a lot of the Jeanettes air on SmackDown, and they
kind of introduced him in a more of an old
school way, you know, where they they didn't put him
in the ring right away. They introduced you just through
his character in the series of interview type segments and

(38:00):
they did that for three, four or five weeks, and
I would say he's gotten over much better than a
lot of the NXT guys at this point. You know,
you can say they got behind him and pushed him,
and they have. You know, he hasn't done any jobs
on TV. He's protected his character. He's he's been interviewed
with Raymond Stereo and a quick one with Chris Christian

(38:21):
and you know, they really tried to build him up
in the proper manner, kind of, like I said, an
old school manner, and I think he's got some money
potential in him. And then they keep protecting him and
keep building this up. They could have a mini of it,
main event level, you know, type of talent with this guy,
and it's a much better formula than bringing a bunch
of rookies out there that you don't like.

Speaker 5 (38:42):
You said, don't care about.

Speaker 4 (38:43):
Don't know anything about, and just making him sell popcorn,
doing wheelbarrow races or whatever stupid stunt they've had him do,
because it really, you know, not only diminishes interest in
these guys, but it makes them look foolish, how, you know,
And how would you really ever get behind these guys
a main event level type, either heels or babyfaces, when
they've been trivialized as much as they have. You know,

(39:06):
I think they we speculated, you know, last winter, when
this NXT format was going to come out, what would
they do to build up these characters. And I don't
think any of us suspected that they would go to
this type of format where they would introduce these guys
and have them do stupid non wrestling types stunts or
skits to try and get their characters over. I think

(39:27):
we were hoping more for more character development, more interviews,
even a show like The Ultimate Fighter where we learn
about these guys' personality for most of the show and
then we have one match at the end.

Speaker 5 (39:38):
Of the show.

Speaker 4 (39:39):
So I think there's a lot of different ways they could.

Speaker 5 (39:41):
Have tried to promote this program and these.

Speaker 4 (39:43):
Guys, and a lot of them would have been better than.

Speaker 5 (39:46):
What we've seen so far exactly.

Speaker 2 (39:49):
And del Rio is a good example that Chris had
brought up and you talked about Brian somebody that you
get that sense of anticipation. Wanted to see him in
a big matchup. You know, you've seen him introduced on TV.
He's gone through you know, went the Rain of Cereo,
he went through a Christian uh that they've fed him
both of those two top baby faces. Now you want
to see him matched up against another big star. You know,

(40:11):
you have that anticipation for man, let's see what del
Rio does with A with another real opponent, but in
a matchup where he's not injuring someone, you know, someone
like A.

Speaker 3 (40:20):
I mean, I'm trying to.

Speaker 2 (40:21):
Think of anybody who's over as a baby face at
a main event level on on SmackDown Road. The only
one left his undertaker. I mean, they're just so short
on baby faces. WW in general is too and it
may even many eventable baby faces, but that would be
the sympiment anticipation you build to see him. Okay, now,
what is he really gonna do with another big cop talent?

(40:43):
And that's what's missing from ninety five percent is wrestling
TV these days, the unfortunate, the exception of the rule.

Speaker 3 (40:52):
Yeah, to call Chris. We appreciate that.

Speaker 2 (40:54):
We're gonna move on and grab another phone call. Let's
go to the sixty one three area code.

Speaker 3 (40:58):
Sixty one three.

Speaker 2 (40:59):
Welcome to the show, police station name where you're from.

Speaker 3 (41:02):
Gentlemen, How are you doing? Great? From Kingston?

Speaker 12 (41:06):
So?

Speaker 2 (41:06):
I Mike was good, not much.

Speaker 13 (41:10):
I just wanted to touch on something that's sort of
been spoken about by you guys in by a lot
of the callers.

Speaker 3 (41:15):
Sure, and it seems to be an ongoing scene.

Speaker 13 (41:18):
People complain about an inability to identify with wrestlers, and
I think that's the major thing that's keeping WWE down
right now, is that they aren't distinguishing, you know, between
different heels or different phases. You know, nobody's got a
real good backstory or or a real good gimmick going
outside of somebody say like Elberto del Rio.

Speaker 3 (41:40):
You were just mentioning him.

Speaker 13 (41:41):
You know, they've introduced him in an old school way.
They've given him a backstory, they've given him something different.

Speaker 3 (41:47):
You know, he's got his own announcer.

Speaker 13 (41:49):
But then you look at the rest of the mid
card faces or mid card heels and outside of you know,
one little thing.

Speaker 2 (41:56):
For example, Drew McIntyre.

Speaker 3 (41:57):
How do we identify with him? We don't.

Speaker 13 (41:59):
All we know is that he's Scottish or you know,
ID with ted d Diazi as a third generation superstar,
but there's no real backstory. And I think that's the
biggest problem with why fans are investing their time and
more importantly, investing their money in the product, is because
they have no one to identify with.

Speaker 3 (42:18):
What are your thoughts on that great point. I think
you nailed that aspect of it as well.

Speaker 2 (42:23):
And I kind of wrote about that in my top
ten draft column that I had in this Sweetor newsletter,
and I wrote about with Randy Orton because I think
Orton has a baby face. They need to flesh out
that character more. It's just, you know, when he comes
out there in his first promo the night after winning
the ww title, as a baby face is saying I

(42:43):
have no honor. I would arko my own grandmother, I
would rko your grandmother, Seamus, and and I'm a man
without honor.

Speaker 3 (42:50):
And the crowd's kind of like yeah, and then they're
kind of.

Speaker 2 (42:53):
Like and then they're like, I don't know about this
character anymore.

Speaker 3 (42:57):
You know, just kind of that. You go from Okay,
I'm gonna pop for that. It sounds cool, and then
it's like.

Speaker 2 (43:02):
No, I don't know if I'm so much behind it anymore.

Speaker 3 (43:05):
And Okay, if they're gonna go that route, they need.

Speaker 2 (43:07):
To go behind the scenes with Orton and really funhed
out that character. And what I wrote about as they
need to have a lot more than sort of the
outside of the ring vignettes, the outside the ring profile videos,
the the they sit down interviews where you get inside.

Speaker 3 (43:21):
The character, you understand who it is.

Speaker 2 (43:24):
Lantoy or Vance Archer, whatever he's called. Now he comes
right to mind as a guy who he looks the part.
He looks like a he looks like a heel. It
looks like somebody who kicks a butt. It looks like
someone who would be impressive. But I know nothing about
his character other than what Tyger Grisham told us I'm
super start of a couple of weeks ago, which is

(43:44):
that he played football in college.

Speaker 3 (43:47):
Okay, what does that do for me? It does nothing
for me, you know, it just there's no relevance. These characters.

Speaker 2 (43:52):
They just sort of paint my numbers, blame cooking cutter
characters all cut in the same claws, and I mean,
I mean, Mikey, you nail the point there, which is
they're not relatable. Some characters are, but then they're you know,
kind of pushed down the card game. And Brian, it
is relatable. He's kind of underdog kick bad Baby's faith,
and yet you have Michael Cole ripping on him. And

(44:13):
Michael Cole's supposed to voice of the product at least,
I think so at least the way.

Speaker 3 (44:17):
He should be.

Speaker 2 (44:19):
So it's just it's an inconsistent mess with how they're
sending their messages. There are so many mixed messages on characters,
and it's just it feels very reactionary. I don't feel
like they had a plan for how to go these characters.
So Brian went to reaction to that relatability aspect of
one of the big issues that w.

Speaker 3 (44:39):
W has right now.

Speaker 5 (44:41):
But I think he's right on the money.

Speaker 4 (44:43):
You know, the problem that we have is lack of
depth of these characters and the inability of the wrestlers
to relate to the fans. You know, you think mac
in history, what has people gotten into or what have
they gotten behind you. You go back, like to Jesse
Venturu when he was wrestling, he was a cool heel.

(45:04):
You know, he was hanging with the Rolling Stones and
he was a bodyguard to the Stones and Mick Jagger
and he was hanging out with all these celebrities from
California and Hollywood. Well that's what he said because they
gave him opportunities to tell it on his interviews. And
he didn't wrestle every week. He did interviews every week
and he got himself over and he talked about how
great he was and how you know, he was the

(45:26):
body and he had these big muscles, and how he
trained and who he trained with, and everybody got behind
a character because it was Jesse b and Jesse we
didn't have a scriptwriter telling him how to act, and
he never really got into that.

Speaker 5 (45:39):
Depth of character.

Speaker 4 (45:40):
So, you know, you look at the guys that you
can identify with throughout history. Dusty Rhoadse was a common
man and fans got behind him, fans of the common man.

Speaker 5 (45:49):
That was a big thing for Dusty.

Speaker 4 (45:51):
No one had to tell him how to act. He's
able to get his character over. And you can just
go through a list of guys who've been successful at wrestling.
They had their own personality, but they were also given
a chance and an opportunity to get that personality over.
You know, we don't need to see Randy Orton wrestle
on TV every week. We need to hear from the
champion why he's a champion, why the belt means so

(46:13):
much to him. We need to have these interviews, give
him some time to develop that character, and then saved
him wrestling on TV for when it's most special or
on a pay per view and be sending the title
that means so much to him.

Speaker 1 (46:27):
We're about to go to a commercial break. Why listen
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(46:47):
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Speaker 2 (47:00):
And I think this is where they miss someone like
Jim Ross, who can a get those stories over and
be don't have that sit down interview and kind of
you know, separate, separate that character from sort of the
rustling arena, you know, the sort of the standard uh stage,
if you will, and kind of take him outside that
element and sit down and talk about the character and

(47:22):
have Ross as a credible voice, get the character over
with some good questions. They don't have a credible voice
in miloit of their announcers. Then Michael cole split personality. Uh,
you never know what he's gonna say. He does, he
doesn't have any credibility.

Speaker 3 (47:37):
Is the voice of the product.

Speaker 2 (47:38):
He can't sell the product. You have Jerry Lawler, who's
you know, he's fine for his role, but he's still
doing kind of the same thing he did in the
nineties just as a babyface commentator. Now he's not he's
not through that that Helish announcer.

Speaker 3 (47:52):
Uh, you know kind of you know, poking Jam Ross
with with uh, you know, sort of the.

Speaker 2 (47:56):
Way Bobby Heen inter Jessie Ventura would do as a
heal announcer an announce SmackDown. You have Todd Grisham, who
is pretty much a robot, and Mike Mike Matt Striker,
who can be really overbearing for two hours, and then
you have Josh Matthews, who's just sort of a guy
to presents as a lackey on the announced that the
announced position. You have no one credible to sell your

(48:18):
product right now as as an announcing unit, you don't.
And it's so unfortunate when Jim Rod is sitting there
add on payroll and you're not going to utilize them
on TV. And I don't care if it would take
away Michael Cole's credibility, uh you know, sort of utilizing

(48:38):
Ross and having coleby your b announcer. I mean, somebody
to step in and fix that product in terms of
being a voice of the product, a voice of the fans,
a voice who can get over the stars and the
characters and the storylines with a shred of credibility, because
nobody does right now, and it's just so obvious that
they have issues with the announcing position.

Speaker 3 (49:00):
Made more obvious by Michael Cole. I think a lot
of people tune out ROW because.

Speaker 2 (49:03):
A Cole or you know, kind of mute it and
they don't hear the stories. They're not going to be
enticed to spend money on the product. That just there's
just no enticement to watch or invest the product right now.
And I think Cole's character is a contributing factor. So
they got to have that voice. They need somebody, even
it's McMahon. Some I wrote in Time this week we
talked about, uh, you know what one of the the

(49:25):
questions of the day this week, which was how do
you spark wrang? And one of the suggestions was put.

Speaker 3 (49:31):
McMahon on commentary.

Speaker 2 (49:33):
I kind of had that that run with Ventura a
couple I guess that was last November when Ventura was
a guest host. And they're building the TLC and McMahon
and Ventura to toler commentary together. So I don't know,
I don't know if that's a solution, but someone's got
to change.

Speaker 3 (49:48):
It's just not working right now. All right.

Speaker 2 (49:50):
We are now joined by Torch Calm and it's Pat
McNeil for the Live Event Center here every Wednesday on
the P two B Torch Live cap Pat before before
we get into the Live Event Center to talk about Raw.

Speaker 13 (50:01):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (50:02):
The ratings down to another year low on Monday night.
A lot of talk this week, especially here in pbtorch
dot com about what WW can do to spark interest
in the product, especially up against a pretty good season
winning the football UH this fall. What's your take on
where RAW is in what w B can do uh

(50:22):
to try to address the situation?

Speaker 14 (50:25):
Well, you know, in short, they've driven the bus into
the ditch and uh, and they you know, and and
and the way I mean w W is the way
it is, and they're gonna and you know, they will
be resistant of the idea that you need to back
up to get out of the ditch before you can
start going again.

Speaker 4 (50:39):
So they, you know, they.

Speaker 14 (50:42):
They they have kept things going that they want to
have big main events, they want to have good ratings,
and and uh, you know they're they're not doing it.
It's a similar problem to what TNA has. They you know,
w W has not created new stars and they need
to they need to get to work on that. And
I mean there's a couple of things. The first thing
I do is to is to get a play by

(51:02):
play man on Raw, because Michael Cole is not doing that.
I bust Joey Styles out of retirement, and I'd put
Michael Cole out there as the heel commentator and just
go that way. And anybody who ope Jacks, you know
you first of all, if you've said, but you know,
if you buy the premise that Joey Styles is the
right bad or replace Jim Ross, how can you not
buy that he can at least replace Michael Cole. I'd

(51:24):
rearrange my tay things so that I take Superstars every
two weeks, and i'd I would, and then I'd get
Ross back there and have rossa wallner, you know, calling
Superstars and you could watch them every week. I mean,
the matches wouldn't be as good, but you know it
would be. It would pay put more attention on the
show than it has now. And WW needs a new
a st show because they no longer have a NXT

(51:44):
for all intents and purposes. And I guess Triple H
is gonna come back, and I guess he's going to
be the GM, and I mean that you know that
should give Edge something to do. Frankly, a Triple H
and Edge feud would at least be new enough that
hopefully would hold people's interest for a.

Speaker 5 (51:58):
Month or two.

Speaker 14 (51:59):
And other than that, I would I would sort of,
you know, I would shuffle the the main events and
and try to make sure that you see fewer of
them wrestling on TV every week. And you know, and
and when somebody like John Cena or Seamous or Randy
Orton wrestles on Raw, it should be special.

Speaker 3 (52:17):
Agreed. No, I definitely agree on that.

Speaker 2 (52:19):
I mean, those are key points in the Triple H
using that would be enough of a payoff for the
audience and say yeah, I'm excited about the product again,
or using the audience.

Speaker 3 (52:28):
It's a man.

Speaker 14 (52:29):
I don't know about that, but I think it would
spark things for a couple of months, which you could
then spend, you know, say, building up the Miss, building
up Dolph Ziggler or Kokie Kingston or whoever you want
the next group of stars to be. And and you know,
you start moving up the ladder and you start using
guys like Triple H and Edge and Sena and Seamous

(52:51):
and Kine to you know, to start getting over these
this next generation of guys.

Speaker 2 (52:55):
There you go, all right, Pat, Now let's go ahead
and look at the Love Event Center for the for
the next week or so, we have.

Speaker 3 (53:00):
Coming up on the schedule.

Speaker 14 (53:01):
Alright, let's start with tomorrow WWE Superstars on WG in America.
I know it's one of your favorite shows. James, Kofi
Kingston and Jack Schwager will be your main events, and
that that might be They're might be more interesting than
some of the other main.

Speaker 5 (53:15):
Events we've had on Superstars. Let's just leave it at that.

Speaker 14 (53:19):
Tomorrow.

Speaker 15 (53:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 14 (53:19):
Then tomorrow night, Thursday night ten, Impact on Spike TV.
Oh boy, another a huge show for you. It will
be Samoa Joe Baking on Mister Anderson and a cage
match on live TV. Well on semi live TV, James
Kurt Angel versus a Biff in a cage match in
the main event of Impact. How about that?

Speaker 16 (53:38):
Uh?

Speaker 14 (53:39):
Then then Friday Friday, w w IS Live they will
be doing a live SmackDown on the Sci Fi channel.

Speaker 5 (53:46):
Can you believe that?

Speaker 14 (53:47):
And Raymisterio, John Cena and then Raymisterious expected to return.
John Cena and and Nexus are your special guest stars.
We have no idea what actual matches will be on
on SmackDown on Sci Fi.

Speaker 5 (53:59):
Uh, but we really why would you? Why would you care?

Speaker 14 (54:01):
With the actual matches are It's live SmackDown on Sci Fi,
so we'll go check it out. Tina is doing a
series at house shows this weekend at South Carolina. I
believe they're in Eliza, Spartanburg and in Columbia and Charleston
and all those fun places. The main events for both
for all four shows this weekend Jeff Hardy versus AJ
Styles and Jeff Garrett versus The Black Polk d Angelo

(54:23):
de Niro. Then, of course, ROAH is doing its television
tapings this weekend Friday and Saturday at the Roach Arena
at the corner of Swaton and Ritner in South Philadelphia.
I believe I will check us. Your main event for
Friday night will be the sixteen man Holiday Gauntlet, which
is kind of like the the TNA Gauntlet or the
World Royal Rumble or whatever you want.

Speaker 15 (54:43):
To call it.

Speaker 14 (54:44):
And then the Saturday night main event Rabick Strong Ny
non title match against Thomiside. That sounds like a lot
of fun. Northeast Wrestling James Michael Brand's Northeast Wrestling has
two big shows this weekend Friday night there in Waterbury, Connecticut.
Your main matches for that show are Vickey James versus
Awesome Awesome Calling, and the WWE United States Champion Daniel
Bryan in his final independent appearance at least for now,

(55:08):
taking on Shelton Benjamin Ooh, that should be a good one. Yes,
Saturday Night. Good matchup Saturday Night on Liberty, New York.
Also Mickey James versus Awesome callng and you Man event
for this one. Jermy Lawler versus Tommy Dreamer.

Speaker 17 (55:23):
What wow.

Speaker 15 (55:26):
You go?

Speaker 14 (55:26):
It's a it's a throwback, all right. W W will
be having their super show on Saturday night in Tyler, Texas.

Speaker 2 (55:33):
You know where that is, right, James, Just outside the
Greater Dallas Dallas Fort Worth area.

Speaker 5 (55:39):
Yeah, it's a.

Speaker 14 (55:40):
Nice super show for the fans. Seamless and Cain and
Randy Orton and John Cena will all be there. No
maxis announced, of course, but Bob tur it will be
a lot of fun. Then Sunday night, w W a
hell to sell the pay per view coming from the
American Airlines Mana in Dallas. Of course, we will have
our recap up midnight Eastern most these PW Torch stations

(56:01):
with myself and Bruce Mitchell and Wade Keller. If Paul
three of us can make it through the show. Of course,
your featured bouts are Randy Orton versus Seamless Telena Sell
and The Undertaker versus Kane Telena Sell. I know that
you think, you know, if you think about it, you
think Undertaker and King must have had a hell of
a Sell match sometime in the past, because it.

Speaker 18 (56:21):
Turns out they have not.

Speaker 14 (56:22):
So this will be a this will be something ww
robbed This Monday night will be in Wichita, Kansas. No
idea what we're gonna see there, and then probably they
don't know have any idea either, And of course big
announcements from Dragon Gates. They've announced their their main matches
for the next two shows. October twenty ninth, they'll be
in Fall River, Massachusetts with their I Take Internet pay

(56:45):
per view Way of the Warrior or whatever it's called,
and the Hope defends the Freedom Gate title against Shingo.

Speaker 17 (56:52):
And then on.

Speaker 14 (56:52):
October thirtyfl be in Rahway, New Jersey, because nothing says
Dragon Gate like Broadway, New Jersey, and your main events
will be she know the uh, the Dreamgate Champion or
the or the Dragon getting Dwight Champion. I gets the
former champion ya motto and.

Speaker 15 (57:07):
There you go.

Speaker 14 (57:08):
That's your live events center.

Speaker 3 (57:09):
I'm going to We're gonna try to squeeze in some
more callers in the last fifteen minutes of the show.
If you want to jump on the pole line's number
to call is six four six.

Speaker 2 (57:18):
Nine eight two eight.

Speaker 3 (57:20):
Let's go to the eight three to Oho area code
eight three oh. Welcome to the show. Please state tamping
where you're from.

Speaker 19 (57:27):
This is a Jeff from Texas. How you guys doing today?

Speaker 15 (57:29):
Good?

Speaker 3 (57:30):
Jeff wye for a set?

Speaker 2 (57:31):
All right, Jeff right, I want to talk about the
uh the Raw ratings.

Speaker 6 (57:35):
Sure, you know, I'm a big Green Bay fan.

Speaker 13 (57:39):
I actually I grew up in.

Speaker 6 (57:40):
Green Bay and you know, so I wasn't gonna miss
that game for Raw.

Speaker 20 (57:45):
And you know Raw, they just have the same.

Speaker 7 (57:48):
Booking, They had the same main events, the same people
with the title, and I think they need a change there.

Speaker 3 (57:54):
So what do you guys think about at Johnson.

Speaker 6 (57:58):
At He'll Turn.

Speaker 3 (57:58):
I think that would plants bark the ratings jump Brian
Johnson heel Turned. Do you think this is.

Speaker 2 (58:08):
I mean, obviously the options on the tables held on
the cell. Do you think that's a potential solution? Does
have long term value to.

Speaker 4 (58:15):
It, you know, longer term, if we look big picture,
it's got a lot of potential down the road. If
you did it right now, you're looking for you know,
you're probably gonna spike the ratings for a couple of
weeks and then then that'll get old because there's no
depth to his character, right you know, the best heel
turns come when a time like you know, when Hule

(58:35):
Cogan was a babyface, he's a tired baby faces. Merchandise
wasn't selling and so they turned him and we had
never seen a heel hole Cogan, well we had at
least since you know, the early eighties, and that was
a spark to the Monday Night Wars and that was
a big help.

Speaker 3 (58:52):
Sina could do that too.

Speaker 4 (58:53):
But right now his merchandise is still selling good enough.
You don't want to lose that income. You really haven't
built up his character that a heel turn is gonna
mean anything on a long term basis, because really WW
hasn't built themselves on a long term basis.

Speaker 5 (59:08):
They're going week to.

Speaker 4 (59:09):
Week trying to get that that pop in the ratings.
And until you go for a long term focus where
you're gonna do you know, the year long build like
a Randy Savage babyface turning heel on Hokkogan build that
led them to WrestleMania nineteen was at eight nine. I
think that's where you know you're just gonna waste a

(59:30):
heel turn at this point on trying to get a
ratings back for just.

Speaker 3 (59:34):
A couple of weeks exactly.

Speaker 2 (59:37):
And I just wonder if they've come to a desperation
point where they believe they have to And the problem
is that Next has not been built up as a
credible group for several weeks now, going back to Summer Slam,
and I don't know that adding seen it.

Speaker 3 (59:54):
In the mix is the way to go to debt.

Speaker 2 (59:58):
I mean when you do this the heel turn with Sina,
I mean, I mean, if you can Hogan and the
w O w O was I mean just on the
verge of taken off. They just needed that one additional
piece to really make that angle take off, and it
was Hogan and Hogan's turning heel was the big The
big piece. Nexus is it's not fresh anymore, it's not new,

(01:00:22):
it doesn't feel new. The wrestlers in that group don't
have credibility other than way, Barrett. So, if you're gonna
pull the switch on this major earth shattering heel turn
for John Cena, I don't know if it's at the
right time just for the for the overall longevity of
that character. If you do it now and it doesn't,

(01:00:42):
it doesn't work, whoa you know, how do you turn
back babyface?

Speaker 3 (01:00:46):
So?

Speaker 2 (01:00:48):
I mean we had a couple of suggestions on how
to pull off a Scena heel turn, and one that
might work would be Seena lays down for Nexus and
is revealed as sort of that higher power that that
you know, the guy who orchestrated the entire Nexus angle
from the beginning. And I don't know how they go

(01:01:08):
back and logically explain that, and I I mean, I
don't know how that all works. But could they do
something where you lays down and willingly takes the loss
and the hell in a cellmash and that jump starts
the angle?

Speaker 3 (01:01:21):
I mean, would that work at all? Brand you think?

Speaker 4 (01:01:25):
I think you said the best James when you when
you said how are they going to go back and
logically explain it? And that goes back to the lack
of their long term planning and trying to fill in
these logic holes because you know, you can't go.

Speaker 5 (01:01:37):
Back in and redo something, you know there.

Speaker 4 (01:01:41):
I think Nexus, the push of Nexus died at SummerSlam
when they were two on one against Sena. They gave
him the DDT on the floor and then he came
back and ended up winning.

Speaker 5 (01:01:50):
That was really when the.

Speaker 4 (01:01:51):
Blowoff to the to this feud was, and that was
momentum peak. I think, you know, and I emailed you
this earlier. I think if they wanted to do something
as fart en up the product or getting someone new
involved in this having a hell in a cell match
that they're having at this pay per view, maybe this
is a good time for the Mids to cash and
his money in the bank and win the title and

(01:02:13):
goes to Row the next night as the new champion.

Speaker 5 (01:02:15):
And we've got somebody.

Speaker 4 (01:02:16):
Fresh on top of the cards that's never held the
world title. He's a great talker, ready to break out
in my opinion, to a main event level. And if
they would push the guy and protect him, I think
he could have somebody that a fresh matchup at a WrestleMania,
a Royal Rumbles, some type of a major pay per view.
He could be the guy that could help spark an

(01:02:40):
increase in ratings and in pay per.

Speaker 5 (01:02:42):
View by rates.

Speaker 21 (01:02:47):
In twenty twelve, NXT transitioned into the developmental system and
ultimately the brand you see today. On the Torch VIP
podcast NXT Eight Years Back, we'll be taking a weekly
look at this page.

Speaker 17 (01:03:00):
In NXT's early history. Join Kelly Wells and me Tom
Stout from p WT Talks NXT every Saturday as we
go eight years back to the day to track NXT's
rising talents and why they did or didn't work out
exclusively for PW Torch VIP members.

Speaker 2 (01:03:18):
And it would set up that miss Orton match, which
I think, you know might be their freshest matchup right now.
To me, that's something that could really.

Speaker 3 (01:03:29):
I don't know if they can stream out to WrestleMania
if they had miss cash.

Speaker 2 (01:03:33):
In now, but that would be something I would build
toward WrestleMania this year and have to be miss Orton.

Speaker 3 (01:03:40):
But like you said, it might be the time.

Speaker 2 (01:03:41):
To go ahead and you know, have mis lose that
match to the Daniel Briant, get that rematch out of
the way at the pay per view and then have
him cash in and do something different. I mean obviously,
this Sunday is pay per view suddenly takes on a
whole new level of importance for WV. With two rating
two weeks of ratings below three point zero, they're gonna

(01:04:03):
have to do something to help them to sell the
spark interest.

Speaker 3 (01:04:05):
In Monday show. So Miss Cash seeing the Heal.

Speaker 2 (01:04:09):
Turn, Uh, whatever it might be, it's got to be
I mean, Triple Ah returning, It's got to be something big,
I mean just.

Speaker 3 (01:04:18):
For the short term.

Speaker 2 (01:04:19):
And there you know, I object to the I mean
I kind of object object to kind of hitting the
panic funding because there are so many long term issues
that they have. We we've identified them lack of title,
uh emphasis, lack of the chase, uh, not connecting characters
to the audience, uh, not being able to identify with
the wrestlers, lack of anticipation, I mean, the structurally, there

(01:04:42):
are so many issues with the booking. But if they're
gonna try to do something this fall season, uh you
know those are you know Miss Cash in or or
Hunter or when the Man's returning there, they've got to
do something because it's just not working right now.

Speaker 4 (01:04:57):
So this pay per view by rates, do you think
this pay per view VI rate is just gonna be
a disaster.

Speaker 5 (01:05:04):
The selling to sell.

Speaker 2 (01:05:05):
Yeah, unless all the people who watch it raw this
past week, or the type of people who would wear
a pay per view, you know, unless they somehow got
some more quality viewers who actually would spend money in
the pay per view and they lost casual viewers. I
don't think that's the case, but yeah, this could be.
This could be a really bad Uh, this could be
a really.

Speaker 3 (01:05:25):
Bad y rate. Yeah, I'm not you know, I don't.
I don't have confidence in it.

Speaker 4 (01:05:30):
But I'm definitely not an advocate of a guy having
a short term tile rain. But you know, it may
be a parent that putting the belt on Orton isn't
working for TV ratings. He's not a draw, and whether
it's his fault or not, this pay per view is
going to be a bomb. Next pay per view, breaking
rates is probably gonna do even worse because it's coming
the night after a lessner pay per view. I think

(01:05:52):
the Sunday night NFL game as Packers vikings going against
their their pay per view, breaking rights and bragging rights
just means not seen as a.

Speaker 5 (01:06:00):
Pay per view.

Speaker 4 (01:06:02):
You know, I'm really fearful here that they're going to
hit the panic button and and do something because of
the low ratings here plus the low by rates and
the may and if they're going to do something, I
guess I would advocate going somebody fresh like miss he's
put himself in that in that status, and giving him
a shot to run with it, but also protecting him

(01:06:23):
and uh, you know, maybe you know it's it's him
against Triple H at WrestleMania. He sends up Orton and Sena,
you know, through the winter months, and then Triple H
gets a mass of WrestleMania. But you got to build
to something. You got to have somebody fresh and somebody
new and protect these guys.

Speaker 5 (01:06:38):
So I know, it's just a thought.

Speaker 4 (01:06:40):
Maybe maybe they'll they won't do it, but you know,
what they're doing right now obviously isn't working there there.
I thought Monday couldn't even tell that there was a
pay per view coming up Sunday because it just did
such a poor job.

Speaker 5 (01:06:52):
Of fighting it.

Speaker 3 (01:06:54):
Yep, yep, there you go. Let's go to our next
phone call. This is from the seven oh four area code.
Seven oh four. Welcome to the show. Please stay streaming
where you're crumb.

Speaker 2 (01:07:06):
Seven o' four you're on the air, all right, seven
o four.

Speaker 3 (01:07:11):
Let's go ahead and try the four to over four
area code.

Speaker 22 (01:07:15):
Four oh four.

Speaker 3 (01:07:15):
Welcome to show, Please stay stream where you're crumb.

Speaker 7 (01:07:19):
You guys from Atlanta?

Speaker 3 (01:07:20):
Hey, oh yeah, what's going on today? Just along the
same lines, a pay per view.

Speaker 20 (01:07:26):
I wanted to share my two cents. I'm not going
to be ordering Hell on Us out in two weeks.
It's just way away, too soon for another pay per view,
and you know, people just don't have the entertainment budget
to order I mean more than one in a month
at most. I think it's just ridiculous. And along the

(01:07:46):
same lines, like I'm wondering what WW is thinking. Like
bragging rights traditionally happens at the time of the new
SmackDown Versus Raw release game mm HM, which is also
about fifty dollars, So I mean, do they understand that,
like by having a pay per view at the same
time their new video game comes out, Like people are
gonna have to choose in a lot of a lot

(01:08:08):
of cases who can afford it, and it's gonna have
to change between one or the other.

Speaker 3 (01:08:12):
I mean, it's it's ludicrous.

Speaker 20 (01:08:13):
I think the way that they're gouging with these these
pay per views too often.

Speaker 2 (01:08:18):
It's funny you mentioned at Elliott because the other day
I was just kind of sitting down and I was
thinking about the idea that WW is asking their audience
to spend forty five dollars on a three hour pay
per view, which, if you kind of put on a
one to ten scale, ROW gives you, you know, about
about a six, give or take you know, six or

(01:08:40):
a seven. And if pay per view is supposed to
give you an eight or nine, and then then you know,
in very rare cases at ten. So they're asking you
to pay forty five dollars for something between a six
and a eight in terms of just a level of
importance and matches and a sense of something big is happening.

Speaker 3 (01:09:00):
Uh, you know, with your time. I mean, it's forty
five dollars worth that difference in the level and I
don't think so. And like you said, forty five dollars.

Speaker 2 (01:09:09):
Other thought that I had, which is, okay, forty five dollars.
You can buy a video game, and you mentioned the
SmackDown versus Wrong again, you can miss you can buy that,
and that's gonna give you about you know, give or
to take fifty to one hundred and fifty hours of
entertainment value. If you're just really hard corner into play
in that video game, you know the pay per view
is gonna give you three hours of entertainment. Hopefully you

(01:09:33):
feel like you're part of something important.

Speaker 8 (01:09:35):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (01:09:35):
But in a lot of cases, especially at Knight of Champions,
they moved on right away. You didn't really get a
sense that it was important the night after because they
had to move right into hyping Hell in the Cell
with only a two week turnaround. And then something that
TNA has done way too often this year, which is
they have a pay per view and on the very
next episode they're not even talking about it. So you

(01:09:56):
feel like that your pay per view buy was not important.

Speaker 3 (01:09:59):
It didn't They had no bearing.

Speaker 2 (01:10:01):
On anything in this sort of episodic nature of the
resident storylines.

Speaker 3 (01:10:05):
So why am I going to order that?

Speaker 2 (01:10:06):
When I could spend forty five dollars on gas, on
a video game, on upgrading my cable system, on HDTV,
on the latest Apple gadget, and there's so many things
you can spend forty five dollars on.

Speaker 3 (01:10:21):
And unless you're gathered around with a lot of wrestling
fans and s put that cost to an individual, it
does not feel like you're getting any value.

Speaker 5 (01:10:29):
Out of that.

Speaker 3 (01:10:30):
So you have the price.

Speaker 2 (01:10:31):
I mean, if you sit down and think about what
forty five dollars which you could do with that, I mean, Brian,
I mean, it's just it's inconceivable to order a pay
per view these days, and especially TNA with thirty.

Speaker 3 (01:10:41):
Five dollars is their price tag.

Speaker 4 (01:10:43):
Yeah, you brought up a good point there about you know,
having friends over to watch it. You know, if you've
got a UFC fight going on once a month and
you have eight or nine buddies to come over and
watch it with you, and you guys, you know, split
the cost of a pay per view at forty five dollars,
you know, eight or nine bucks to pitch in. It
doesn't seem like a big deal, and you're happy to
do it to hang out with your friends and watch

(01:11:04):
three four hours of good entertainment. But there isn't too
many wrestling fans out there anymore, and it's harder and
harder to find seven, eight, nine guys to partner up
with to come over and watch a pay per view
event and then split the cost. And so if you're
if you're having to absorb that cost by yourself and
you've got you, like the caller said, a pay per
view two weeks after a previous pay review, and you're

(01:11:26):
looking at one hundred dollars uh to watch WWE and
you know a lot of people it just may not
be worth it to them, and they're most likely going
to skip at least one of those events. And when
you end up skipping one, and it becomes very easy
to skip two or skip three because like you said that,
they're they're not very meaningful and they move on from

(01:11:46):
it right away, and you don't feel like you're part
of something special exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:11:51):
And wrestling right now it doesn't have that cool factor
to where you can kind of publicize, Hey, I'm a
wrestling fan, you know. I mean, back in the day
it was you published signs you're a wrestling fan walking
around wearing a T shirt and uh and people's second
all or at school, or I mean if you work
somewhere where if you wear wrestling T shirt and.

Speaker 3 (01:12:11):
Say, you know, oh you're you're a wrestling fan. You know?

Speaker 5 (01:12:13):
Are you?

Speaker 2 (01:12:14):
You know we're sing about stone Cold that center of
ball or uh, hey you want you want to get together.

Speaker 3 (01:12:17):
And watch the pay per view.

Speaker 2 (01:12:18):
I mean that's how I mean, that's how so many
people connected as fans.

Speaker 3 (01:12:22):
Back in the day. I don't get that sense anymore.

Speaker 2 (01:12:24):
It's almost one of those things where oh, you're a
wrestling fans, so you know's a big star. Now I
heard about this John Cena guy, Well, what's the deal?

Speaker 5 (01:12:32):
You know?

Speaker 3 (01:12:33):
It's more of it'said UFC is a cool thing, wrestling
is not.

Speaker 2 (01:12:36):
And and we've identified a lot of different things on
why not related bility of characters, anticipation, value of the
titles having having cooler characters that relate to the audience.
So a lot of different.

Speaker 3 (01:12:49):
Issues facing wrestlings. That's kind of the theme to say show.

Speaker 2 (01:12:51):
I want to thank everyone for listening today. Uh, Brian,
you know, I sticking around for the after show where
we have a lot of other subjects to get.

Speaker 3 (01:12:57):
To torch v IP members stick around for that coming
up next.

Speaker 23 (01:13:15):
Thank you for using blog talk radio.

Speaker 2 (01:13:18):
Goodbye, all right, Brian, We're now when.

Speaker 3 (01:13:21):
You get the after show.

Speaker 2 (01:13:22):
A portion of today's show a lot of good discussion, Nay,
we have callers bring up a lot of good topics
on on wrestling and why it's just it's not Tanton
in the audience right now.

Speaker 3 (01:13:33):
Talk a little bit.

Speaker 2 (01:13:33):
About that at the end of the show, uh Brian,
any of those thoughts to add on to serve our
big picture topic discussion today on just wrestling missing the
mark in terms.

Speaker 3 (01:13:44):
Of being cool right now.

Speaker 4 (01:13:46):
You know, it definitely isn't from the people that I've
talked with, James. You know, even some of these MMA
fans are starting to lose a little bit of interest
because of the old over saturation. There's a you know,
UFC event last weekend, tomorrow night, there's w e C,
and there's just so much to keep up with that
the casual fan can't do it, you know, he he
knows who. Maybe a couple of the big champions are

(01:14:08):
like brack Lesner, George Saint Pierre. When they fight, they'll
go ahead and watch him. But when there's a smaller
event or something that doesn't seem as significant, you know,
Frank Mere event, Frank Mere headline pay per view, they're
gonna be skipping that. And that's the you know kind
of mentality with with wrestling is right now. It's it's
definitely the downturn, pretty insignificant there's yeah, yeah, there's a

(01:14:29):
pay per view coming up. But you know, there isn't
anything that really piques my interests or anything that I
must see that I can't miss and and wait till
the next night and catch it on TV and find
out what.

Speaker 2 (01:14:39):
Happens, right, I mean, you know you always want to
have a sense of hope for Okay, well, if this happens,
they can turn it around, or if this happens, people
get excited again, and you know we will identified a
couple of those things, you know, potential rod GM reveal,
a NeXT's higher Power, I don't know, you know, Baby

(01:15:00):
Blage excites enough for the audience to get them if
you were to return, to get them interested. So you know,
you want to find that hope, that that hope fact
or what it is, what could it be? And I
just don't know that there's enough interest in a rod
GM reveal or you know, a Nextu's higher power, or
you know, in TNA's case, they whoever the day is,

(01:15:22):
or you know what Dixie Carter has been advertising has
a big change for the live impact on the.

Speaker 3 (01:15:27):
Seventh of October. Just don't get a sense that these
little twists are going to do the trick.

Speaker 16 (01:15:33):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (01:15:33):
Part of it is we've seen so many of.

Speaker 2 (01:15:35):
These reveals or twists or tricks or big surprises that
they don't hold as much value anymore. And promoters just
don't have the basics down. They just don't have the
basic anticipation and relatability of characters that they don't have
that they're not using that in their toolbox. So well,
that said Brian, what could they do?

Speaker 3 (01:15:55):
What could w do?

Speaker 6 (01:15:58):
You know?

Speaker 2 (01:15:59):
Let's say Triple A is revealed as the Raw GM
and that seems to be one of the major potential
options right now. But is there someone out there that
they could do that would be enough of a sparking
interest for Raw that they could it could build upon
itself where they could use that to build upon itself
to create more storyline fus and angles and title chases, uh,

(01:16:23):
involving other characters. Could could a character or a person
really spark its where everything else on that show benefits
from this person being revealed? And the same with Day
in TNA? Is there anyone out there who could be
revealed as a Day realistically that can help spark TNA's
product and build upon itself going forward? Are those two

(01:16:46):
things out there right now in wrestling.

Speaker 4 (01:16:49):
Well, you know, Huff the top of my head, I
don't think that there is that type of person out there,
and that's I don't think the environment that we're in
right now and in wrestling is it's built up more
like you know, the the Harlem Globetrotters back in the day,
where they would be traveling from town to town and
you come out and see the stars rather than one
person or any big person that's going to be a

(01:17:11):
ratings mover in wrestling anymore. You know, unless it's somebody
like a brock Lesner who's got crossover a field with
MMA and wrestling, that would be a big name, news
type worthy person to come back into raw.

Speaker 5 (01:17:24):
And be the GM of that program.

Speaker 4 (01:17:26):
Now, you know, certainly no one expects that to happen,
which is another reason why it would be affected. But
you know, if you had to look at at somebody
who's a free agent out there, you know Triple H,
you know, his return will probably do a spike in
ratings for a week or two, and and then the
same pattern that we've been left or cursed with been

(01:17:46):
on your on your perspective, would transpire again on Rob
because they're not changing any of the big picture items.

Speaker 5 (01:17:53):
They're not changing the.

Speaker 4 (01:17:54):
Writers or the bookers, their long term direction or they're creative. Nothing,
none of that has changed other than just bringing in
one person. And that's only good for you know, a
short term spike.

Speaker 3 (01:18:04):
Yeah, and I don't you know, let's say.

Speaker 2 (01:18:07):
Triple H comes back, and obviously the natural.

Speaker 3 (01:18:09):
Feud would be with Edge. Obviously with Edge attacking the
raw GM.

Speaker 2 (01:18:15):
You know, is that something that could spark business is
a Triple H versus Edge feud. I mean, it seems
like the feud is Triple AH for Shamus, Seamus that's
talking about Triple H for several months.

Speaker 3 (01:18:26):
That seems to be the way they would go with it.
I mean sort of the the the.

Speaker 2 (01:18:32):
Gut reaction to Monday was, you know, maybe it's something
like you know, w BE and TNA doing across promotion,
and to me, I just kind of sat there and
you know, you know, mesically, the the idea being that
maybe mc mahon his day and Dixie is a GM
sort of those conspiracy theories, and to me, it's come

(01:18:52):
to that point where we're looking for something that's so
unrealistic as a conspiracy theory uh, just make up wrestling.

Speaker 3 (01:19:01):
Because you.

Speaker 2 (01:19:03):
Know, neither promotion can do it internally based on the
way they book and write and create stories. Right now,
it's just it's just so sad that's where we are
right now. So I mean, you know, Trump as versus Edge,
maybe that has some potential.

Speaker 3 (01:19:20):
I you know, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:19:21):
I don't know what they're gonna do, and I don't
know that they're they really know what they're gonna do
with the situation. I don't know that they have someone
in mind right now, this very moment, and they very
well could, and I hope they do, but.

Speaker 3 (01:19:35):
I just don't see them having anyone.

Speaker 4 (01:19:38):
Yeah, I'm agreeing with you. I don't think they know
where they're going at this point, and it's kind of
just a week by week.

Speaker 5 (01:19:44):
Throwing the ideas out there.

Speaker 4 (01:19:45):
And and that's why we got a talking computer on
raw shooting with Edge at this point.

Speaker 2 (01:19:50):
Yeah, I didn't feel like they have to do something
to advance it, but they don't know what. So they're
gonna try to reveal some more hints, you know, have
that talking boy and having to escalate to our Edge
is beat up the computer and maybe that'll lead to
a make or break situation. I still know that the
audience is as intrigued because there isn't a sense of

(01:20:10):
it's all very consistent. It feels so inconsistent that there's
no real anticipation for the reveal, and that's unfortunate.

Speaker 1 (01:20:23):
You don't have to wait for the way Keller Prog
Wrestling post show to find out what I thought of
Monday Night Raw and SmackDown. Each week, you can check
out my reports that are updated live throughout Raw and
SmackDown at pwtorch dot com. My written report will tell
you what's happening in detail in case you missed the show,
and it will also analyze key segments and give my
random thoughts quips on what I am watching as it airs.

(01:20:46):
So check it out every Monday night and Tuesday night
at pewtorch dot com. That also applies to WWE pay
per views. I cover those live at pw torch dot
com with a detailed written report with star ratings, and
of course you can find other TV reports from their
contributors to pw torch such as nxt, r, OH, Impact
Wrestling and more. Check it out pw torch dot com

(01:21:06):
your first stop for TV and pay per view written.

Speaker 2 (01:21:09):
Reports before we get to some some nostalgia news notes
and some more draft talk. Well, you go back and
forth on this a little bit today. Miz and Alberto

(01:21:30):
del Rio, and these are two characters who I still
inevitably will be in the main event scene, you know,
within a year, within maybe six months, who knows on
the respective brand. I had a ree with my draft
for the twenty Fantasy draft as a guide that I
would have in my promotion if I were to start

(01:21:51):
a promotion. I did not have Miss, though I had
him quite kind of in my other receiving votes, and
we had some some reader feednaw that we posted where
del Rio was on two of the three ballots and
the Miz was not on the ballots for either of
those three ballots that we posted. My thought is that
I need to see more from the Miz in the ring,

(01:22:14):
and with del Rio, I think there's so much upside
for him that he's someone that really hasn't been tapped
into the character, and he's someone that I believe would
be someone fresh and different in the main event scene
for my promotion. So I think Miss could be a
number one pick next year. I really think that with
the more matches under his belt, he's the number one

(01:22:35):
guy in a couple of months.

Speaker 3 (01:22:37):
Or even next year.

Speaker 2 (01:22:37):
So find when do you come down on these two characters,
sort of mid card guys with high ceilings potential to
be big stars, have all the chrism in the world
to be at that level. Who would you pick and
how do you compare those two?

Speaker 4 (01:22:52):
You know, I've had both of those guys on the
list that I turned in. In fact, I had miss
my number one choice in and del Rio down there
a little bit farther, maybe six or seven eight, something
like that, but I had him both picked. And the
reason that I did was from a perspective of this,
If you're going to have guys that are going to
be stars, they can be good in the ring, but

(01:23:15):
they don't have to be great. You know, the Rock
was really good. Maybe he wasn't the best technical guy,
but he was really good. But he could talk and
he could get himself over and he made himself into
a star based on his verbal skills. Jesse Ventura I
talked about earlier. He's a guy that was not very
good in the ring at all, be you know, barely average,
but he was great on the mic, got himself over

(01:23:37):
and was a draw in tag team or in singles
in the early days of AWA in WWF, and I
go back to that that if you're going to be
a star, you've got to be able to have a personality,
be able to talk, and I think MS is doing
that as well or anybody in either TNA or ww
at this point. When I seen him on TV, he

(01:23:59):
carries himself.

Speaker 6 (01:24:00):
Like a star.

Speaker 4 (01:24:00):
He talks well, and you know, he's got a lot
of charisma, whether as a heal or face. I think
he's he's got what it takes. And I would say
the same thing for del Rio, although we haven't seen
nearly as much from him in either respect as in
the ring or on the mic. You know, and you know,
you can go back to guys that have been tremendous

(01:24:23):
inside the ring that have not been able to get
themselves over on the on the micro and verbal skills,
and they have not become as big as stars. You know,
guys like Bobby Heenan, Brad Armstrong. Both those guys very
technically sound and gifted, but not good on on the mic,
not able to get themselves over as super star type
level workers.

Speaker 5 (01:24:43):
And I'm glad you.

Speaker 2 (01:24:44):
Brought up Heaton and because that's going to lead me
into asking you about your your fantasy draft, which was
in this week's Towards newsletter. You began with the nineteen seventies,
so you have the seventies and eighties and nineties and
today now that the two thousands and the the.

Speaker 3 (01:25:00):
Twenty tens or the teens, whatever we're gonna call it.

Speaker 2 (01:25:03):
But you have number one in the seventies, Bobby Heenan,
and you have them in twenty tens. You have the
Miz as you're number one. So it's kind of interesting
how you have that connection from.

Speaker 3 (01:25:14):
Heenan to the Miz.

Speaker 2 (01:25:15):
And in between the eighties you have Hulk Cogan as
your number one, in the nineties you have Steve Boston,
and in two thousands you had the Rock, you know,
three of the biggest stars.

Speaker 3 (01:25:24):
Ever in the history of the wrestling business.

Speaker 2 (01:25:26):
And kind of sandwiched in between guys who are good talkers,
good talkers. Heenan, you know, more of a managerial rolling
is more of a kind of SMARMI Heelho hasn't really
established himself in the ring just yet, so go running
a lot of themes there from the seventies to the
twenty tens. Going go ahead and touch on some of
the draft picks you made in each decade, and what

(01:25:48):
are some of the themes that you saw from your
own draft live.

Speaker 4 (01:25:52):
Well, you know, you always have the advantage of hiding
sight being twenty twenty when you when you go back
and do these nostalgy type drass going back to the seventies,
and you can pick out who were the guys that
were the big stars. But what I tried to do
is be somewhat objective and give a reason of why
you would have picked them at the time. And you know,
you mentioned Bobby Heena number one, which I think.

Speaker 3 (01:26:12):
Would pretty obvious.

Speaker 19 (01:26:13):
He's such a.

Speaker 4 (01:26:14):
Great talent either as a manager or filling in as
a wrestler. Number two was Nick Backwinkle, another guy who
was great on the mic and good inside the ring.

Speaker 5 (01:26:23):
He could do both.

Speaker 4 (01:26:24):
And you know, to be a high level draft pick,
I think you have to one get yourself over as
that superstar that that personality, whether you're a heel or babyface,
can then also be able to back it up inside
the ring.

Speaker 5 (01:26:38):
You don't have to be great.

Speaker 4 (01:26:40):
Hulk Hogan certainly showed us that he was actually pretty
decent in the ring and not too bad on the
microphone in the early eighties when he was wrestling for
the AWA. Never was really any better than that. That
was probably his peak as a wrestling performer in wrestling
for AWA, But he did was was able to cut
some decent promos throughout his career, especially I like this

(01:27:03):
NW overrun, you know, in the nineties when he turned heel.

Speaker 5 (01:27:06):
I thought he did some good work at.

Speaker 4 (01:27:08):
That point as far as not in the ring, certainly,
but he had that chrism and that character to carry himself,
you know, a little bit farther into the forties, not
based on his in ring work, but mainly based on
how he carried himself and his microphone skills. And you know,
some of the other guys they picked, almost all of
them had some sort of ability to cut a good

(01:27:28):
promo to establish their their personalities, guys like Steve Austin
and Brian Tillman in the nineties. About Tillman was another
guy who had unlimited athletic potential and just that he
was kind of held back because of his size and
when he had a chance to develop his character and personality,
he really shown in ECW. At times in WCW, like

(01:27:50):
in ninety three when he had the Hollywood Hollywood Blonde
run Steve Austin and then when he did his loose
cannon personality. I thought that was another great era that
he you know, he could have been much better utilized
over the course of his career.

Speaker 2 (01:28:06):
Yeah, it look at your nineteen eighties a decade list.
One thing that jumps in mind that I'm surprised wasn't
on there, but it was the von Erics. Did you
consider them at all? Was that they didn't have, you know,
a long enough run because of all the family issues
they had.

Speaker 3 (01:28:23):
Or what do you think the von Erics fit in
here in the nineteen eighties if you're booking a national promotion.

Speaker 4 (01:28:29):
You know, those are guys I had considered, and there
were just I think too many other big talents that
you know, they probably would been in the top fifteen
and on the top ten, just too many other guys
that were big talents there. They were in that world
class territory, but they didn't really have that spark to
ignite the territory until the free birds came in. It
was just the free Birds that really turned the leaves around,

(01:28:52):
and they never really did any.

Speaker 5 (01:28:53):
Big business without the free Birds. They you know, they
didn't have.

Speaker 4 (01:28:56):
Any other big runs. You know, Carrie had the title
chain and ended up winning it from Flair, but you know,
other than that, it was only a two weak reign
and they really didn't have much else in that decade
other than clashes with the free Birds and and you know,
being in their local promotion. They they did have some
pushes in Saint Louis and some other territories, but as

(01:29:19):
a main event, national type performers. Uh, you know, they
were they they couldn't they couldn't work with everybody. Carry
Van Eric was was a disaster on the interviews, one
of the worst of all time. And and you know
they I just didn't think they were strong enough to make.

Speaker 9 (01:29:34):
The top ten.

Speaker 3 (01:29:36):
Yeah, good, good explanation. I was really curious about that.
So I appreciate that.

Speaker 2 (01:29:42):
What a couple of other names, we're not going to
get your thoughts on, Uh, Mick Foley in the UH
in the nineteen nineties, where do you think he would
have fit in? I mean, uh, you know, did he
fit in your top ten list? I mean, obviously not
your top ten, but in your Top fifteen, Top twenty. Uh,
you know, because Bowing was around real long time in
the nineteen ninety ww and WWF, where does he fit

(01:30:04):
in in your in your top whatever was in the
nineteen nineties.

Speaker 4 (01:30:08):
Well, you know when I made that, I tried to
do it from the opinion that starting in nineteen ninety,
if a guy was wrestling, where would he fit in
at that time? You know, based on what you saw
of him in the ring and what we had seen
of Nick Foley in the eighty nine and ninety time frame.
He wasn't really a main event level performer.

Speaker 5 (01:30:27):
He didn't have the look.

Speaker 4 (01:30:28):
He was really never given a lot of opportunities on
the microphone, so he couldn't really develop his character. For
his personality, his you know, he had a certain style,
that Bruiser Brodie type style of wrestling, which to me
I thought had kind of a limited shelf life at
the time. And when he became a star, it's when
he was given the opportunity to go to WWS and

(01:30:51):
become that personality that was able to get over, you know,
all by shell three of them in Mankind and the
Cactus Jack and his own own name and the dude loves,
so he's given some opportunities at that point. That's when
he really became a national star. I think he he's
definitely won that in the top fifteen at the beginning
of the decade. If you if you were done in

(01:31:13):
this as of nineteen ninety five, you probably would have
put him in the top ten at that point.

Speaker 2 (01:31:20):
Yeah, good perspective on that. So I just imagine those
are a couple of different names that that that readers
or listeners might be wondering about. It's a yeah, good
perspective on that. Let's go ahead and let's go to
twenty years ago flashback from the Torch Back issue series
that we have every Wednesday on the P two B

(01:31:42):
Torch dot Com VIP section, So we can go ahead
and look at last week's which was cover dated September
twenty seventh, nineteen nineties. Was twenty years ago. Kind of
that I relevance what we talked about during the Live
Cat Today, which was Hulk Cogan and the cover story
examined Hulk Hogan failing to sell out Los Angeles, and

(01:32:03):
you kind of talking about this about why it was
a good timing for Hogan, you know, you know, six
years you know, it's a yeah. Less than six years
later in ww he turned heel, uh basically because he
just wasn't doing much business as a babyface. And we
kind of see and we kind of us a little
bit of those seeds being planted. Here was this cover

(01:32:23):
story in the nineteen nineties, the September twenty seventh, nineteen
ninety cover story on Hulk Hogan failing to sell out
Los Angeles, and there's a lot of other factors, you know,
just sort of wrestling being down at the time, especially
the WWF brand. What what's kind of your reaction to
that cover story on Hogan and just that time period
for WWF in the early nineteen nineties.

Speaker 4 (01:32:44):
Even though they had really peaked in in eighty seven
with Hogan and Andre match at Wrestlemedia three, and then
they had a real struggle in eighty eight and eighty nine.
They had the big angle with Hulk and h Randy
Savage from you know, and that was a good run
for them. Those two guys working together produced some good

(01:33:05):
matches and a very memorable feud between the two of them,
and then you look at you know, from there they
tried to transition away from Hulk and to Ultimate Warrior
nineteen ninety limited success, I think, and that was kind
of a downhill slide for ww As a time period,
wrestling was kind of where it is now, not as

(01:33:27):
a cool thing.

Speaker 5 (01:33:28):
You know, we had the big boom.

Speaker 4 (01:33:30):
Period in the mid eighties lasting up until about eighty
eight or eighty nine. That was kind of the peak,
and this is the start of a downhill slide and
maybe similar to what was seeing twenty years later right now,
very much a downslide in wrestling where it's not as
popular as it once was.

Speaker 13 (01:33:45):
And so.

Speaker 4 (01:33:47):
You know, they were looking to get the build off
Hulk and he was looking to do more movies, and
so they were making that decision and wrestling just wasn't
as popular back in nineteen ninety He did not have
even w Cwist Flare on top doing great matches with
Steamboat and Funk. In nineteen eighty nine, they didn't do
the best house shore business they've ever done up until

(01:34:08):
that point, even with those great matchers and great workers
on top.

Speaker 2 (01:34:12):
And one of the other big stories in the twenty
years ago flashback was Scott Steiner, Penn and Rick Flair.

Speaker 3 (01:34:18):
It's hard to imagine.

Speaker 2 (01:34:19):
Steiner has been around, you know, more than twenty years now.
Obviously it isn't active nationally anymore, but Scott said a
kind of a you know, a young baby faith coming
with that, that Michigan amateur ruptian background. At the time
of Pendrick Flair and w CW National rest Alliance. You know,
you remember, you know that was that a big deal?
Was that something that helped propel Steiner's career at the time.

(01:34:43):
What's kind of your perspective on that se headline story.

Speaker 4 (01:34:48):
Yeah, it was a real big deal. Scott had not
been wrestling for very long, just three four years at
that point, but they really saw a lot of potential
in him and in Rick. You know, there was a
story going around as well when Dusty Roose was in
a lot of booking power up until about nineteen eighty
nine where they were going to have a Rick Steiner
title win over Flair at Star K eighty nine and

(01:35:09):
that was mixed and Olie Anderson ended up taking over
booking control and so only was going to push guys
that were a little bit more like him, had a
strong amateur wrestling background, and you know, Scott obviously fit
the bill. He was a I think he played fourth
in nineteen eighty sixth in the NCAA national tournaments for Michigan,

(01:35:31):
So he was he definitely fit that bill, and that's
where he was getting to push from. They were making
us trying to make a star out of Scott Steiner.
Maybe he wasn't quite ready for it at that time,
but you know, certainly was a guy that was what
they were looking for in nineteen ninety in you know,
twenty years ago.

Speaker 2 (01:35:50):
Yeah, Rick Steiner as a world champion that would have
I mean it's just obvious from the very beginning that
you know, Scott had the charisma. Rick was more of
the uh uh you know, just kind of the show
pony in the workhorse. You know, well I don't know
Rick Bener a work workhorse, but you know he was
a guy who just you know, kind of went out
there and helped carry the meat of the match. And

(01:36:13):
Steiner was, you know, the flashy you know, he butts
out the the Frankensteiner and shocked people with that at
the time. So kind of a show pony, workhorse type deal.
I mean, Rick is a world champion. Why what do
you think Rick never became a world champion? What do
you think kind of held him back. Was it just
he didn't have an in factor.

Speaker 3 (01:36:31):
He was, you know, you know, kind of like a
just a guy who was valuable and he wanted to
have a.

Speaker 2 (01:36:38):
Ronster, but you would never put him on the top
of the card. What was the different What do you
think Rick never really became that world champion level guy.

Speaker 5 (01:36:46):
He you know, he was a guy that was.

Speaker 4 (01:36:47):
Better off at the tag team situation than then on
on his own. He wasn't a great promo guy, didn't
have a ton of charisma. He was, you know, it
was good inside the ring and a certain style, but
he know, he wasn't gonna be a guy that was
gonna go around country and give me a great technical,
twenty minute match every night. He could work a certain
type of rough style, drawling style, and that was pretty

(01:37:08):
much how he was limited. But he wasn't the type
of you know, like a Rick Flair that could go
back on TV and build up big business for him
to come into town. So you know, he was he
was good at the tag team, worked out great with
him and his brother in the tag team mode, and
and you know that was his best niche in you know,
like you said, Scotty had much much more Charsma than

(01:37:28):
his brother, did much better on interviews, and you know,
they they really were able to exploit that in the
last half of the nineties when he did the Big
popa pump character kind of a takeoff of Superstar Gram.

Speaker 2 (01:37:43):
And so final notes from from the back issue section
from this from the September twenty, nineteen ninety back issue,
let's see we have ringside beats with Eddie Gilbert versus
Cactus Jack mc fully discussion there. WVF was at Maryland
and she caigo a call umn on politics in rustling

(01:38:04):
not mixing ironic considering let it Man's Senate campaign is
reaching its climax in a couple of weeks here and
torch talk Jim Ross and Wade Keller, and Ross talked
about memories of Bill Wattson's UWF promotions. Not anything jumped
out you from that.

Speaker 4 (01:38:23):
Yeah, that's not the herb Abrams UWF as sure you
were aware of.

Speaker 5 (01:38:27):
Yeah, you know, I thought that was that.

Speaker 4 (01:38:29):
Torchtock as well, where somebody going back and reading out
of that old back issue from twenty years ago was
fairly insightful as far as what happens to THEWF and
the insight that ross game. You can really see where
he developed at a you know, a younger age probably
will he's what thirty five thirty seven back in that
time frame, and where he learned a lot of the

(01:38:50):
business from working for Watson and the direction that that
company was going. And you know, I thought it was
a good interview, and like I said, if people VIP
members have access to it, I definitely to recommend to
go back and read it.

Speaker 5 (01:39:01):
It was a good interview.

Speaker 15 (01:39:03):
There you go.

Speaker 2 (01:39:04):
Uh, great discussion as always, Brian, thanks again for joining
and uh uh any funnel talks before they wrap it
up today.

Speaker 4 (01:39:12):
Well, another good discussion. I guess I would look this
virates to be pretty poor h on Sunday once again
because as we talked in the.

Speaker 5 (01:39:20):
In the life portion, just don't think that they're.

Speaker 4 (01:39:23):
Doing a good jove hype in it and fact to
you know, UFC Virates probably for this last paper you
aren't gonna be very good either.

Speaker 5 (01:39:31):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:39:31):
I mean it's it's a tough market right now, I
mean fall fall.

Speaker 2 (01:39:36):
I mean a lot of people there they feel like
they're gonna get their entertainment value with a lot of
other stuff, whether it's sports, or our TV shows that
they don't feel like they're gonna they don't need to
spend their money. You know, they kind of uh wave
out the summer and now they're ready to get their
their full their fill of entertainment with whatever is on
free TV, I mean not free T you know, well

(01:39:58):
what they paid for on cable or satellite that.

Speaker 3 (01:40:00):
Gets Kinne speaking lard.

Speaker 2 (01:40:03):
So very interesting to see with these virus to how
they do and how they come in.

Speaker 3 (01:40:09):
Not anticipating big.

Speaker 2 (01:40:10):
Numbers, but we'll see and maybe maybe bragging rights will
be helped by whatever happens to Hell in the self
and that kind of remains to be seen as well.
So friend, thanks again for joining me today. Always look
forward to it on a weekly basis of for coorts
Nostalgic Colmus Brian who this is Port assistant editor James

(01:40:31):
Sodwell sign it.

Speaker 24 (01:40:32):
Off searching for more great pro wrestling talk, then join me.
Jason Powell host them the three weekly Pro Wrestling Boom Podcast.
Each week, he'll hear the latest news and analysis for
me and my team at Pro Wrestling Dot Need along
with other pro wrestling media members. Plus The Pro Wrestling
Boom Podcast features long form interviews with notable names in

(01:40:53):
the pro wrestling industry. Subscribe and iTunes, Stitcher, downcast and
all your favorite secondary apps or visit us direct. We
had PW boom dot com once again. That's PW boom
dot com.

Speaker 3 (01:41:07):
Lo Wells four flavecast and did resand Courtierswater editor and
e w BRT dot com editor Wag Keller and I'm
flying solo today. It is an hour straight of phone calls,
So join me today on the live cast by calling
six four six seven two one nine eight two eight.

(01:41:30):
We'll let you decide the subject matter on the show. Obviously,
one of the headlines this week is a second week
in a row of Raw ratings being below three point
Oh not as bad as we first thought. We first
reported a two point four. Turns out it was a
two point seven, still a drop from last week. Very
rare that rad has two episodes in a row below

(01:41:54):
a three point h in the modern raw history, and
even worse when it's happened, I think it's mostly been
around holidays or when somebody killed two people in themselves.
So this is I think a time that's kind of
exciting for wrestling fans, even though there's a reason the
ratings drop because things have been kind of off kilter
a little bit, not as exciting, dynamic, unexpected, not the

(01:42:18):
same adrenaline rush on Monday nights or Friday nights for
that matter, that we have come to expect at times.
But when the viewers start tuning out, I think that's
when Vince McMahon, for instance, will wake up and call
for some change or be willing to make some changes
that maybe his instincts over the years told him needed
to be made, but he decided not to make him

(01:42:39):
because he didn't want to rock the vote. Things were
going well enough that you know, he didn't want to
make a change, have it backfire and have bonny hammer
at He was saying, Network a very important business partner
there is go excuse me, go what was that for?
Why did you make that change? And so I think
now he's at a point where the ratings are low
enough it's an alarm belt and it's time to make

(01:43:00):
that change. Trying to open the chatroom here, we've got
a number of people on hold. We'll get your calls
in just a second. Here the chatroom for me was
just spinning, so hopefully it'll connect.

Speaker 19 (01:43:10):
Oh.

Speaker 3 (01:43:10):
I also speaking of spinning, I wanted to mention that
the app is down today, has been since late yesterday
afternoon or early evening, depending on your time zone. We're
working on it. The main listing isn't working, but if
you click on the separate categories, it looks like most
of the time those are working. They actually made a
change in the system. I won't get at all the

(01:43:31):
technical stuff, but there were some changes that were making
to actually try to prevent the app from crashing during
high traffic periods and just in general. They were kind
of switching some of the technology around, and well, it
was exactly what I was talking about with msic Man
it backfired. He's trying to do some good and something
bad happened. So I know the tech team at UE
is working on this and should be back up and running,

(01:43:51):
but I don't know when, and I just know that
they are working on it. So but go ahead and
launch the app and choose the catgories like news, TV reports, opinion, editorial,
that type of thing. I believe those are working and updating.
It's just that main listing that gives you an error message.
All right, chat room is open, So everybody, go ahead
and dive on in there. Let's go to the phone

(01:44:12):
lines and begin with Eric cod at two point eight.
Thanks for colling. Please state your name and where you're from.

Speaker 22 (01:44:19):
Hey, Wade, this is a jay out of Houston.

Speaker 25 (01:44:21):
I think you meant two to eight one.

Speaker 3 (01:44:24):
Oh I did?

Speaker 19 (01:44:25):
Yup?

Speaker 3 (01:44:26):
Thanks?

Speaker 15 (01:44:27):
Okay, okay.

Speaker 3 (01:44:30):
I love the VIP session. Great stuff.

Speaker 25 (01:44:33):
First thing I went to was two thousand and five
Shawn Michael's.

Speaker 7 (01:44:37):
Whole Cooder, because I knew you would have a whole
back story on that.

Speaker 3 (01:44:41):
I watched the.

Speaker 22 (01:44:43):
Shawn Michael's latest DVD and he talked about you know
what a jerk Hogan was to him, and I listened
to you all audio.

Speaker 5 (01:44:52):
It was great stuff.

Speaker 22 (01:44:52):
You and Bruce did a fantastic job with that.

Speaker 25 (01:44:55):
And I was just wondering, did anybody since Sean came
back in two thousand and two, has anybody complained about
Sean in that same light?

Speaker 22 (01:45:06):
Or you know, he's kind of difficult, or he's tipped
the tat win for win.

Speaker 6 (01:45:11):
What's your take on that?

Speaker 3 (01:45:14):
You mean just since that since the two thousands, I mean,
Sean Michaels had a pretty lousy reputation in the nineteen
nineties for being difficult to work with. I think he's
acknowledged that he has matured. And when someone says I've matured,
I've changed and I'm a different person. Usually that's kind
of a roundabout way of apologizing for being a jerk
for a long time. And Shawn was I mean, Sean

(01:45:35):
was a young, brash guy. He was undersized in a
promotion that traditionally had pushed larger wrestlers only. I mean,
Tino sent Ten's quite a bit bigger than Shawn Michaels
and he never got past ic title level. Not a
big difference in size with Sean Michaels and Randy Savage,
other than Randy was more muscular. So se Sean had
that reason to be really ultra protective of his spot

(01:45:58):
and kind of be looking out for, you know, a
boss who his instinct points away from, somebody like Sean.
So I think part of that was that, part of
it was Sean is just his personality was, you know,
be difficult, ride with his group, you know, ride with
a click. And I think he had generally the best
interests of the company in mind, but he was obviously

(01:46:20):
at times selfish and didn't want to do jobs. But
he came from the tradition of if you're a smaller
entersized wrestler, fight ever doing a job, because it's hard
to recover from it, especially in a promotion that traditionally
pushes bigger wrestlers, and as soon as you do a
few jobs, maybe fans won't take you seriously anymore. You
need to have that sense of being in vulnerable in
order to be believable given the context of trend. But

(01:46:43):
in the two thousands, I don't think he had that reputation.
I think as time went on he really did mature
and he genuinely changed, but he kept to himself. He
wasn't a guy who was a real locker room leader.
He wasn't a row rock guy. He's the type of
person who you can see walking away from wrestling and
being okay, earning the channel on his life. He he
it's a little different than Brett Hart, where I think

(01:47:03):
Brett Hart has at trouble getting away from it. I
don't think Sean is gonna be. You know, it's he's
having fun in social networking, but I don't think he's
gonna be just having the spurning desire to return. Go ahead,
any follow up yes, sir, yes, sir.

Speaker 15 (01:47:17):
Oh god, it I'm making you sound oh sorry.

Speaker 22 (01:47:23):
I think I think WW actually did Riving Damn a
favor by jobbing to a certain degree, because I could
have seen him that same, especially how he is in TNA.
I mean, he thinks he's the biggest star and he
thinks like he.

Speaker 25 (01:47:39):
Actually thinks that he built that house.

Speaker 22 (01:47:41):
And I noticed something a trend without with these.

Speaker 5 (01:47:45):
Great these superstars.

Speaker 22 (01:47:46):
They come into quote unquote smaller promotion and then he
gets hot and it's like, look I built this. Look
you know you should be thanking me, kissing my feet.

Speaker 3 (01:47:55):
And and Jay, let me put things in perspective to
you're talking about rob Ban David. He's all had an ego.
He's always been, you know, gone to the beat, a
bit of a drummer. He doesn't, you know, doesn't kiss
up to authority to the point I think where it's
it's it's disrespectful and lacking. I think there's a level
of self centeredness, to an immature self centeredness to the
way that he conducts himself, and I think a cavalier

(01:48:17):
attitude that goes too far. I think I think it's
a business where it's good to have a rebellious personality,
you know, you don't want to be on the other extreme.
It just seemed like a total, you know, kiss butt
to the promoters. But you know, I think I think
RGD takes a part. But when we talk about who
was built up TNA, James Caldell actually sent me this
this email a few minutes ago or about an hour ago,
when he was doing some ratings research September twentieth, two

(01:48:39):
thousand and seven. That's two thousand and seven impact through
a one point oh eight rating. September twenty fifth, two
thousand and eight, basically the same Thursday of two thousand
and eight a one point oh seven, so a slight drop.
September twenty four, two thousand and nine a one point
oh two, and September twenty third, twenty ten, last week's
show one point oh one. Nobody let me stress this.

(01:49:01):
Nobody in NA gets to have an ego because the
payroll is bloaded compared to where it was back when
they were doing one point eight one point oh seven.
The years of their ability to learn lessons and adjust
to the marketplace, they've had years to adjust, years to build.
They haven't done that. I don't care what excuse they have,
and they can sit here and say, oh, you know,

(01:49:22):
it's this or that or that outside of our control.
It doesn't matter. You don't get to have an ego
and talk about being all that when you're part of
a wrestling company. And that's just one snapshot of one week.
But in general, that's a trend. You know, they're not
any better off than they were two, three or four
years ago. So you know, be quiet and stop putting.
And you know, if you're Rob van dam don't produce

(01:49:43):
the worst promo in the history of professional wrestling, which
he did on that phone interviews two years ago, you
can make a case for it. Druce Mitchell did for
about a half hour the Bruce Mitchell Audio Show two
weekends ago, why it was the worst promo in history.
It had had tons of storyline build up, and he
gave new meaning to phoning it in. So I just
I don't want listen to mister Anderson or Rob bad
Damn or anybody or you know, talk about how they've

(01:50:06):
taken TNA to a new level, or air Fishout or
Holk Coogan. It's it should be I've said this before,
it should be embarrassing humiliating and humbling. What has happened
to anybody associated with T and A this year? Given
the type of the billboards and Times Square, the hype
on Spike TV, the talent that was brought in, it
should be humiliating and humbling to every ego in that

(01:50:27):
company that they're in the position that they're in right now.

Speaker 16 (01:50:31):
Oh yeah, and let me say something.

Speaker 22 (01:50:33):
That promo that Bruce Mitchell cut it was so good
it had to be called the promo. I mean that
that maybe signed up for VP everyone go VI I
T Bruce Mitchell is the truth way.

Speaker 3 (01:50:46):
Keep us the great work. Well, thanks Jay, you can
be the first caller every week if you want. With that,
With that kind of endorsement, takes a lot. Have a
good day. If you want to sign up for VIP,
of course I'd be. I'd let Jay down if I
didn't plug how to do it. The l is PW
Torch dot com flesh go VIP. That's PW Torch dot
com slash go VIP. We offer a new newsletter every

(01:51:08):
week in PDF format and text format on the VIP site.
You get add free access to every article that you
read on the free site. Tons of archives of newsletters
dating back to over twenty years ago. Every Wednesday we
put up a new twenty years to go Back issue.
We also every week put up five and five and
a half years to go Back issues. We've got literally
one hundreds and hundreds of back issues from our library

(01:51:29):
of over eleven hundred issues, plus a VIP form you
can interact with other VIP members and the Torch staff
on a daily basis, the VIP Blog section where you
can write your own blogs and interact with the Torch
staff and other VIP members. Plus tons of audio shows
fifty more than fifty every month. We average seventy five
or more VIP exclusive audio shows every month, including the
VIP After Show and much much more, including right after

(01:51:51):
pay per views. Probably one of our most popular features.
Don't know if it's the most popular, but the post
pay per view roundtables. As soon as the pay per
view ends, I get on the conference call with usually
Bruce Mitchell and Pat McNeil and we talked for forty
five minutes to an hour or so and review the show,
and it's available to members right after that, so you
get a lot of bang for your buck, and I

(01:52:11):
encourage you to check it out and if you like
what we do here on the livecast, I think you'll
really like the expanded offerings on the on the VIP
site that's pw torch dot com flash Go vip.

Speaker 1 (01:52:24):
Anytime you're watching WWE Raw or SmackDown or aw Dynamite
in particular, send us an email if you've got thoughts
on the show, or a topic you want us to
address or a question for us. Wadekeller Podcast at pwtorch
dot com. Wadkeller Podcast at pewtorch dot com. If there's
anything else going on in pro wrestling that you want
us to address on our main podcast during our mailbank segments,

(01:52:47):
that same email applies Wadekeller Podcast at pwtorch dot com.
We invite that interaction. Let us know what you think
of what we're saying, and let us know what you
want us to talk about and ask us specific questions.
Wadekeller Podcast at towards dot com.

Speaker 3 (01:53:03):
All right back to the phone lines. If you want
to join us here on the show, join me here
on the show. I'm flying solo today, third day, September thirtieth,
two thousand and ten. The number is six four six
seven two one nine eight two eight. That's six four
six seven nine a two eight. By the way, if
I do a Keller Hotline today, that will be May, June, July, August,
and September five straight May June July. Yeah, five straight months,

(01:53:26):
not missing a day of doing it. So I do
a Keller Hotline every day. Includes my summary of the news,
reviews of TV shows that just aired, and ramps and commentaries,
and expanded versions of what you hear if here on
the bodcast. So just want to to U say that
we're on a five month straight there with the Keller Hotline.
All right, let's go back to the whole lines and
go to aera code four one five. You're on the show.

(01:53:48):
Thanks for calling. Please stay your name and where you're from?

Speaker 4 (01:53:50):
Going on?

Speaker 3 (01:53:51):
Wait is Jonathan from San Francisco. Hey, Jonathan, good here
from you? What's up today?

Speaker 19 (01:53:56):
Oh?

Speaker 3 (01:53:56):
Good?

Speaker 5 (01:53:56):
All good?

Speaker 15 (01:53:57):
Hey?

Speaker 16 (01:53:57):
Do you know what happened between the WWE and the
contract between them and uh Spike TV, Because like they
they made a big deal about you know, WWE moving
over to TN TNN when it was TNN, But like,
what what cost that that happened? Because I thought USA
and the WWE and you know Universal and all that

(01:54:20):
was happy with each other. What what was the contract
between them? And how did TNA get the contract with
Spike TV?

Speaker 3 (01:54:28):
Sure, I mean there's there's a lot more to it,
and and I could talk for twenty minutes on it.
It's it's all in the in the uh Torch archives
you can review in detail if you were a vpmember
all the stories wrote on it. It wasn't there wasn't
a big contract though, it was just basically the deal
can do. And USA net Work, a much more prestigious network,
wanted wanted WWE, and so the WW is like, well, yeah,

(01:54:50):
we definitely go back to USA if the money is right,
because USA is, you know, one of the top rated,
highbrow basic cable network sets out there, and that's where
they spent them at order their time, and vinsic Man
had a good relationship with Bonnie Hammer and it was
part of an overall package with NBC Universal that where
they came to the table with a really good offer.
And so they basically left Spike TV. Spike went with TNA,

(01:55:13):
and obviously TNA pitched themselves to Spike because RAW had
done really well for them and although they RAW had
unwittingly created a franchise and The Ultimate Fighter one of
those decisions that will live in infamy where vinsic Man
could have vetoed The Ultimate Fighter airing right after Raw,
and he didn't, and that is what led That's one

(01:55:34):
of the big catalysts to the explosion of UFC. I
think they would have done really well otherwise, but that's
one of the catalysts. And so when Raw left, it
did live leave a pretty big gaping ratings gap in
Spike TV, which is a rating stars network, you know,
for what Rob was producing. It was a big gap
and it really was a blow to them. And t
and A had established themselves on Fox Sports and I

(01:55:55):
even had continued to do it on the Internet, and
the Spike TV thing just it was a good fit.
It was a it was a smaller network, Spike TV
was then USA, and TNA was a smaller company than
w W. They were able to grow together, and so
it was it seemed like a gimme. It seemed like
an obvious thing that they should do. They should get
together and h and be partners, and they did, and

(01:56:18):
they have grown together and TNA probably would be around
today if it wasn't for WWE going from Spike t
USA because I'm not sure what other cable network would
have brought TNA on board other than one that already
had a familiarity with pro wrestlings.

Speaker 16 (01:56:35):
Yeah, like cause we always talk about the reignings that
USA and w DOE is doing right now and it's
like in the twos. But I remember on Spike TV
they was pulling fives and sixes and next thing you know,
they moved back to you know, USA, back home, they
was doing five and then all of a sudden it
went from five board three two.

Speaker 21 (01:56:56):
Now is it going to go to a one?

Speaker 3 (01:56:58):
I mean, what does the w need to do? The
I mean, right now is the.

Speaker 16 (01:57:02):
Perfect time because they did it when Ho Cogan left
the company, they just got around their their younger guys,
and those young guys became superstars and they ran the
company and they got Austin and all these guys while
they were still you know, in their prime to come over.
So do you think that the WWE needs to go
to like Ring of Honor and other you know territories

(01:57:24):
the you know start cherry pickings. The guys that are
you know, on the internet favorites like they did with
you know, the other two guys that's in the company
right now.

Speaker 3 (01:57:34):
Sure, I'm not sure how much switching networks affected the
ratings at all. I'm really not convinced on that. I mean,
when when keeping when WWB left USA Network, USA Network said, well,
WWB was our highest rated show usually, but the viewers
came for Raw and then when Row and they left,
it really didn't help us across the board. That was

(01:57:55):
one of their arguments. Of course, that all changed when
they when they lured that, when they you know, courted
to return and gave them a good offer, then it
was like, oh, they're gonna, you know, bring new viewers
to USA Network and more people will watch Monk and
you know whatever. You know, the staples of the network,
and you know, whether it's whether it's happening or it
doesn't matter. But what hasn't happened is being on USA

(01:58:15):
hasn't made a noticeable difference in raw ratings. They didn't
go way up. I think I had heard Vincent Man
thoughts the ratings would go up being on USA compared
to Spike. I think wrestling fans who like WWE find
Spike TV just fine, you know, it's thirty six for
USA and sixty two for Spike or whatever. It's in
your table network. They're topsier networks for the most part
that people are gonna find find you on either one,

(01:58:36):
and there was enough height, so I didn't expect it
to make a bit difference, but it certainly didn't hurt
going through Spike to USA. I just think it was
kind of a neutral move. I think staying on Spike
when you're in a spin like they are right now
and the ratings are going down, I think when you're
on a weaker network that's a little more scary, but
the expectations are lower, so it's kind of it's a

(01:58:56):
mixed bag right now, with WWE ratings dip in below
three point er two weeks in a row on non holidays.
I think being on USA network gives them a greater
sense of urgency than they might have on Spike TV,
but it also gives them a stronger partner to maybe
try to help them out of the rut. I don't
know how much running ads for Raw during other USA
Today original series helps increase Raw ratings. I mean, I

(01:59:18):
just I don't. I don't my gut helps me it
doesn't do much good. It might remind people who watched it,
but it's strayed that oh yeah, I gotta try that again.
But I don't think probably, I probably don't think that's
a that's a huge factor as for whether the ratings
keep sliding. I think there are changes that can be
made that will stop the slide. Whether they do that

(01:59:39):
or not, I don't know. I don't think this is suddenly,
you know, millions of people who liked the pro wrestling
form of entertainment are just going to give up, you know.
I think I think most people are going to who
are wrestling fans, if they like the product, they're going
to watch it still. And the key for WWE is
they're they're always going to be losing older, older or
younger fans. I mean, there's always turnover. And what they

(02:00:02):
need to do is have a product that that hooks
people who are new viewers, whether they're young or new
in the sense that they've been away for years and
they come back to sample it. He's got to have
something that looks exciting, and I think what's happening now
is they don't have that singular star that's grabbing a
new generation of fans they don't have enough athleticism on
the show, which I think is a big thing. It
grossly underestimates it. If you don't have a lot of

(02:00:25):
more people doing what Evan Bourne does, I think the
show loses, You lose a certain part of your target audience.
And I think physic Man grossly underestimates that. I think
when when there happened to be athletic people on the show,
whether it's Jeff Hardy or Sean Michaels or the Hardy
Boys feuding with edgend Christian or you know what, I
think it's just happenstance. To Vince, he doesn't design it
that way, but he benefits from it, and that's because

(02:00:46):
he doesn't think it's a factor in the rating's going up.
When that athleticism through happenstance dies away, because the new
stars happened to be Dolfziggler, Drew McIntyre, Cody Rhodes, Teddy
Biassi and Seamus Well, you know, none of them are
you know, doing what Evan Bourne or say John Morrison
to a certain extent too, And I think fans that
that turns them away too. So there's things they can do,
but they can't do what they did before because there

(02:01:08):
isn't a ww to take stars from, you know, and
that's on Niro's bill, taking stars from w w E.
To a certain extent, that was one of the factors.
But I don't I don't know that they can go
to Ring of Honor and make a difference. I think
in w w e's mind, is somebody in Ring of
Honor was good enough to be on the WWE roster,
they would assign them to their developmental group in Florida.
So I think they're going to look to their developmental side.

(02:01:30):
But that's a you know, it takes a little while
to build stars, you know, Goldberg and Seamus, and you know,
people who ride to the top quickly are exceptions to
the rule. And and so I don't know that that
that there's a real quick turnaround when it comes to
bringing in new talent. I think it has to do
with shaking up the format a little bit. I wrote
a Keller's take on Monday night after this week's raw,

(02:01:53):
kind of anticipating that the rating would probably probably be
low again because it felt flat, suggesting, you know, a
half a dozen things that maybe they can do, and
I stick to those I mean, you know, just it
might not be one thing, It might be a half
a dozen moves that they have to make in order
to get fans interest fight again.

Speaker 23 (02:02:15):
Are you a fan of AW looking to sit back,
relax and listen to some like minded podcasters who share
your passion. Do you want to be topped off the
ledge after a segment that has you wondering what the
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Speaker 4 (02:02:33):
Then join me Joel and me Greg for.

Speaker 23 (02:02:35):
The All Elee Conversation Club every Friday on the pw
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Speaker 3 (02:03:02):
Anything else? Johnson, Yeah, do you think that SmackDown is
going to do a two?

Speaker 16 (02:03:08):
It should do a higher than it two if it's
on you know, sci fi, because sci fi does have
those guys that the geeks or whatever, everybody, the Internet crowd,
that Internet crowd that that are kind of WWE SmackDown
type of crowd, because you know the guys that that can,
you know, relate to those crowd, like the Undertaker that

(02:03:32):
has all the magic tricks and tricks and all that jazz,
and you know, they probably bring it more like other
kind of characters. Like where do you see SmackDown in
the next year on sci Fi?

Speaker 3 (02:03:44):
It's a really good question. It's the million dollar question
right now. I mean SmackDown or NXT. This week threw
a point seven for the final episode. I mean that's terrible. Now,
granted it was a Lane Duck show. They put no
promotion to do it on raw. You know, it's the
way the show was produced and put together. There was
just was just a turnoff. So, you know, they ruined
the concept of an all women's show, and I think

(02:04:05):
undeservedly so because I still think, you know, with the
right planning, you could still do a one hour show
once a week on cable featuring primarily women and drop.
So I don't think it should be judged, but I
think he's done a lot of damage to that case
with the few weeks here that they've had this NXT
concept on. I don't think SmackDown is going to do
a two point zero. I think it's gonna be a

(02:04:26):
little under that. I just don't think on a network
that has for n XT been drawing, you know, a
point seven to a one point one and that type
of thing. But but but I'm hedging a little bit
only because ECW did better than a two point oher
when it debuted, you know, so that audience is possibly there.
On Sci Fi, SmackDown is a bigger show. John Cena,

(02:04:48):
the Nexus Undertaker, Undertaker versus CM Punk. That's a pretty
good lineup. So I would be blown away if they
do a two three or two four, But I'm not
gonna be shocked if they do a one eight or
one nine out of the gate and maybe just stay there.
The perception needs to change that SmackDown is the B
show with fans, and maybe they'll change that. But I
think they could have done a much better job on

(02:05:08):
Raw on Monday promoting the debut tomorrow night than they did.
I don't think airing four canned commercials and then at
the very end of the show having John Cena say
I'm going to stop by because Nexus is going to
be there is enough. I think they should have built
to a crescendo on SmackDown the last few weeks, building
towards a big main event, and they should have talked
about that on Raw. They should have made it about someone.

(02:05:30):
They should have made this SmackDown debut about a match,
and especially about someone's motivation going into that match, and
make it a personal issue that fans tuned in to
see the results of just saying oh, tune in to
see colsee Kingston. I don't think that. I don't think
that works. It's too generic and it makes it seem
like it superstars on WGN, and I think they did
a poor job on Robbed of doing that. And there's

(02:05:52):
going to be a little confusion with the audience. There's
going to be a drop off on DVR views because
people are used to having it set automatically and it's different.
You know, it's not late pulled this Friday end SmackDown
on some systems, it's just WWE SmackDown. Well, that's going
to cause the disrection on auto recording. I think a
lot of things are in play, but I think it
might settle in at about a two point zero over time,
especially looking at where Raw is at two seven right now.

(02:06:15):
I don't know that two point zero is a disaster.
And keep in mind, I meant to say this at
the top of the show. Ro's rating being a two
point seven and it being disastrously low in certain ways,
not two point four, it would have been a disaster,
but you know, scary low. It still was the number
two show on cable that night. I mean, Monday Night
Football was number one by a mile, by four or

(02:06:37):
five times the audience level. But Raw was number two.
So it's not like you know, they're dropping off the landscape.
They're still boosting USA network saverage rating, but not by
the level that USA wants. All right, Jonathan, thanks for
your call. We'll go back to the phone lines and
go to Eric code six four to six. Thanks for calling.
Please state your name and where you're from. Hello, yep,

(02:06:59):
six ur six around the show up.

Speaker 5 (02:07:00):
Here's Joe from New York.

Speaker 3 (02:07:02):
Hey, Joe, three jays to start the show, Jay, Jonathan
and Joe. Cool. That's my million, that's what I paid
big money for. Go ahead show.

Speaker 18 (02:07:15):
All right, I've got a few things out of my mind.
I've been listening to you for a while, first time
call it. So I also got something to talk about
with the Friday Nights backdown.

Speaker 5 (02:07:24):
Since you've been.

Speaker 18 (02:07:25):
Talking about it, what do you think about Like it
was just time about last year that Sharan Michael proposed
a one on one match with Taker. What do you
see like seeing a and Taker face to face and
hyping it up for this coming year on lecal media
because I've heard talks about that.

Speaker 3 (02:07:45):
Yeah, they talked about seeing Undertaker last year, and I
think now we're looking. I mean, it made sense to
go with Undertaker Michael's rematch, especially with with Michael's doing
the retirement, you know. I mean that that made at
a gimme, you know, go go ahead and do it people.
It's just great and that was a smart move. I
think Scena versus Undertaker makes sense. I think it's I'm

(02:08:09):
I'm intrigued by that. I mean, WWE is gonna need
an intriguing WrestleMania season to get people back into it.
If they don't do some of the things that I've
suggested or other people have suggested to shake up the
all too familiar format. It really feels cruise control phoned in.
It's not terrible. I don't think people are saying raw
it's terrible. I think people are saying Raw just feels
too familiar, you know, just people want. It feels too formulaic,

(02:08:32):
And Randy Orton's not really over enough to be the
lead babyface right now. You know, they haven't given us
a reason to really like him. They don't have a
strong enough heel battling him, because even Shamus they've hedged
on a little bit, and you know, he was kind
of sort of coming to the defensive WWE against Nexus.
I just think there's a lot, there's just a big mess,
you know, it's just kind of a mess. So I
think Scena versus Undertaker is a type of match that

(02:08:54):
takes the top star from Raw, top star from SmackDown.
Two guys have been around a long time, Undertaker a
lot longer, but Seen is a veteran now a veteran
top star. That is a match that feels fresh, it
feels different. You can imagine the promos, you know, you
could imagine the promos, but you don't know quite where
they're gonna go with it. Are they gonna go with
Taker as a heel or heelish? Is it gonna be

(02:09:14):
Seen going a little heelish? Are they gonna be totally
straight up baby faces and shake hands and hug and
talk respectfully of each other. It's gonna be a brand
versus brand thing. We don't know that yet, and that's
something to look forward to. I don't think there's a
bigger match that they can go with or should go
with than that.

Speaker 18 (02:09:30):
Yeah, I definitely sell the same way, and I think
it'd be cool to have Facebook matchdown this and stays
the same way on you know, you mean pay per
view and then and hopefully seen it doesn't get the
title from now to then, and we could see a
fresh match between Taker and seen him maybe before his
Taker has the title. Seena could face Taker, or they

(02:09:52):
can have a match with no title, because we've seen
it before, Taker having a great match with the no title.

Speaker 3 (02:09:57):
You know, that'd be my pick. I don't I think
you need a I don't think you've used title in
Sena versus Undertaker. I mean they could go all the
way and make it the unification match, have Seena somehow
end up with a belt again and have Undertaker end
up with it, and just beside, we want one world champion.
We've got a formula to do it. We're gonna elevate
the IC in the US title to make them seem
as important really as a SmackDown title fields right now

(02:10:20):
and have that kind of floating champion who goes from
one brand to the other but is an overexposed If
that's a plan, I mean, I'm not against it if
it's well executed, and I think it can be well executed.
But I think if they're going to keep the title
separate and not unify them at this WrestleMania, I think
Sena and Undertaker is a big enough match. They're big
enough personalities, it's a big enough chapter in the stories

(02:10:40):
of these two comic book hero type careers. I think
it's it's that can stand on its own, and I
think it can be the co headliner with a big
world title match with hopefully Randy Orton's still champion against
a top levels heel, perhaps say Triple h if he
comes back and they do an angle where he turns
heel because they need a strong heel. So just throwing

(02:11:01):
that out there, I don't know what other naturally really
jumps out. I think Triple Ace has been away long
enough now that almost anything he does will seem fresh.
I think he could be against an Undertaker, he could
be against Sena again. He could be against Orton again,
but I'd rather I'd rather see something fresh with him,
such as him being in a compelling storyline that involved
him turning heel and not just doing the type of

(02:11:24):
stuff that he's been doing with d X where you
just kind of rolling your eyes at what a shell
of his former self he is in terms of the
cool factor.

Speaker 18 (02:11:31):
Yeah, that'sine.

Speaker 1 (02:11:34):
Thanks for downloading today's show. Take it to the next
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(02:11:55):
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Speaker 3 (02:12:10):
Go vi ip, Oh go ahead, Yeah, oh no?

Speaker 18 (02:12:16):
I have another thing talk about TEENA. If you knew
as a company your champion was like on the end
of his reign on his match day cluse talking about
r v D, why would you not let him drop
the title to this on that whatever gimmick match they

(02:12:38):
had on that tema show, and why not give it
to this and just let the world title float around?
That's so you have a tournament for two months and
and make the title seem like pointless.

Speaker 3 (02:12:53):
I think part of it is they didn't want for
RVD to lose. Yeah, I think they felt like we,
you know, we used up his day and you know
they shouldn't have used up his dates. They should have
planned that better. Maybe they thought he'd be more flexible
and be a company man and come back and participate
in in more matches and not put up a fuss
about it. But whatever it is, you know, asking RBD
to lose isn't is probably as bad as Sean Michaels

(02:13:15):
in the nineties. But you know, RBD, you can tell
from these interviews he thinks he's bigger than TNA And
you know, hey, Rob, you've made zero dens in the ratings.
You know it's time to you know, get a little
humble here, but I think in TNA they looked at
this possible storyline and said, well, here's the plug side.
We do the brutal beatdown of him, pour blood all

(02:13:35):
over him, and we'll do a tournament and that'll help
close the gap. We'll have the semi finals in the
month right before Bound for Glory. In the finals, it'll
be you know, no one can criticize us for not
planning ahead. We'll have long term planning. Here is that
you know we're planning seven weeks ahead for Bound for
Glory being the tournament finals, and you know they didn't
have somebody in there going, well, wait a second, Rob
Vandam's going to wrestle on the show that crowned the

(02:13:58):
champion for the first time of that he was stripped
of You know that that decides who holds the title
the striped up. That makes no sense. In fact, it
makes the company look like absolute buffoons that they that
they were willing to go seven weeks for no reason
without a champion. When the first round four matches took
place in one freaking show and each of the matches
took took two to five minutes each or three to

(02:14:18):
four minutes each. It's so I don't know how they
can run these ideas by each other and not go
wait a second, you know, why are we stripping RVDA
the title? If we're not going to crown a champion
by the time he gets back, why don't we just
have him lose instead and then get beat down afterwards?
You know, why not have the integrity of the of
the history of the title intact as best as we

(02:14:40):
can and not have a pretend interim champion. Basically, whoever
went this tournament didn't beat r VD and so I
think it looks like an interim or a secondary champion.
There's so many negative there's so many downsides that the
approach DNA has taken.

Speaker 18 (02:14:54):
Yeah, I feel like within the year too, like KNA
told them, but that they will.

Speaker 3 (02:15:02):
But I hope, I hope they. I hope they decided
to try some new things and go, you know, learn
learn some I.

Speaker 18 (02:15:09):
Always hope for something good and they always let me
do it, just like the mess.

Speaker 5 (02:15:13):
But he there.

Speaker 3 (02:15:16):
All right, Joe, thanks for calling. I appreciate you finally
calling the show. All right, you bet you too. This
is the PW Torch Live cast. I'm going solo today.
I'm host Wade Keller, editor of the Progressing Torch newsletter
and PW torch dot com.

Speaker 19 (02:15:31):
I did.

Speaker 3 (02:15:31):
I said this on the h Keller Hotline on the
v SPC VIP site yesterday, and I want to say
this today is just a brief commentary just because it
was in the news. I kind of camele news on
and saw stories on and I saw it online that
there's been some teenagers who have been committing suicide for
being teased for the perception that they were gay. And

(02:15:52):
when I saw that story, it, you know, and I
heard the statistics which blew me away how often this
is happening. It it It immediately made me think of
all the things that John Cena as a character who
is considered a role model and really is a role
model for I think early teens in many many ways. Hustle, loyalty,

(02:16:13):
respect great three words to live by, you know. I mean,
you can pick three different words that are great to
live by, but hustle, be loyal, and show respect are
three great words to live by. He's a role model
in a lot of ways in how characters portrayed, but
he takes shots at he makes gay jokes consistently as

(02:16:35):
part of his character, and he makes little innuendo about
Justin Gabriel. I think when he does that, I think
it tells viewers who think he's got hit a pretty
good head on his shoulders. He's a pretty good role
model for me as a nine year old or an
eleven year old or a fourteen year old or whatever
age group it is, before they drop off and start
booing him, that's a really influential time. And I just

(02:16:56):
want to put out there, you know, to a different
audience than the Keller hotline that I just I just
think is wrong. And I think that the writers, Vincent Mann,
Brian Key Wurtz, the whole team at WWE, and really
John Cena mostly he's the one who's speaking those words
and as a power to say no, think hard about
the effect that that might have in school, at junior

(02:17:18):
high schools or even elementary schools. If John Cena makes
it seem like it's okay and really the right thing
to do to make fun of somebody because they come
across as as they're gay or they might be gay,
think about what that does to that kid who might
be a fan of yours, who is coming to terms
of the sexuality, or is getting teased or the kid
who's the one doing the teasing and thinks it must

(02:17:39):
be okay because John Cena doesn't. So I just want
to throw that out there. I think it's it's subject
that kind of flies under the radar because he's kind
of he doesn't go overt with it, but it's something
he's done pretty routinely, and I think it's something that
shouldn't happen anymore, and I think it's something that that
people should talk about more and be more critical of.
All Right, that's that. That's the mid show rant. Now
back to the phone. Mind's going to get in line

(02:18:01):
on the phone banks. So let's look, we got up
five or six people on hold already. H but if
you do want to call up the number at six
four six seven to one nine eight two eight. That's
six four six seven to one nine A two eight. Also, uh,
the email address for the show is PW Torchlive cast
at gmail dot com. That's PW torchlive Cast at gmail
dot com. You're welcome to subit questions, especially if you

(02:18:22):
don't get a chance to listen to us live and
call in or your phone shy. You're you're listening to
us on iTunes and not when we're live on the air.
Whatever the situation is, you have a subject or question
you want to have us address, just send it to
that email address. All right, let's go to h Erico
three four to seven. Thanks for holding. Please state your
name and where you're from.

Speaker 15 (02:18:41):
Hello, my name is Jeans from Statnau.

Speaker 5 (02:18:43):
In New York.

Speaker 3 (02:18:45):
Hey, Jeens, thanks for calling.

Speaker 15 (02:18:46):
What about I have a question regarding the Vincent Man
Bretthheart relationship. Now that Vic Man and Brett Heart have
become friends again, do you think over time the Montreal
screw job will lose its significance because I think the main,
the main reason why McMahon screwed Brett Hart got in
the day was because he didn't want Eric Bischoff to

(02:19:07):
go on Night Tel the following night telling the world
they signed away to other the champions. I don't think
it was a matter of Brett taking the.

Speaker 11 (02:19:15):
Belt physically the WHW.

Speaker 15 (02:19:17):
I just think that he was afraid that Bishoff was
gonna tell the world that McMahon's champion has jumped ship,
which basically would have humiliated McMahon's company.

Speaker 3 (02:19:29):
I disagree and I think there's quite a bit of
documentation that would You're not entirely out face, but there
was a misperpetrated by vincmic mannon that there was some
sort of a threat that Vince was going to show
up with the belt on on nightro even with al
the Belts, keep in mind, Vince McMahon hans with Brett
Heart's contract and told him or told him I'm not

(02:19:49):
gonna pay you, you consume me, or you can take
a settlement, and and told him to go to w CW.
So that it makes absolutely no sense to say that
Vince McMahon had to screw Brett Hart out of the
title because he was great that Bretteart was stow up
on w STOWTV, when it was Vince McMahon who had
Brett under a very long term contract and chose to

(02:20:10):
send him to WW and in fact told him Brett,
I hope that there's still a good offer on the
table for you, because I can't afford to pay you
this contract anymore because they were in a financial tough situation.
This is what it came down to with Brett and Vince.
It came down to Brett not wanting to do a
job in Canada to his enemy Shawn Michaels, and Brett

(02:20:31):
Hart not at taking himself in the eyes of Vince
McMahon way too seriously, because Brett started talking about a
hero in Canada and I can't do that to my
fans and that type of thing. And Vince McMahon for
the same reason that he needled Jim Ross in Oklahoma,
for the same reason that Vince McMahon does a lot
of the things that Vin smic mahnon does. He decided
to turn this into a game, and he decided to

(02:20:52):
prove that he measured longer than Brett. It was a
measuring contest and who had the most power, and Vin
sick Man showed in the end because the two egos
clashed that he had the most power and he wanted
to prove it, and he was willing to go to
quite a larger stream to do it. I don't think
it had anything to do with business, because Brett easily
could have retained the title that night, and he was

(02:21:14):
willing to job to Sean Michaels any number of other
nights later on in the next couple of weeks before
he left. It came down to Vince won and Brett
to lose the way he wanted Brett to lose, and
Brett didn't want to lose the way Vince wanted him
to lose. And in the end Brett at Vince McMahon
had more power than Brett to orchestrate the screw job.
And I think in Vince's mind it was just it
was exciting for him. It was a chance he had

(02:21:36):
to betray a friendship, but also to see the look
on Brett's face when he pulled the best practical joke ever.
And I think Vince was wrong to do it, But
it took two people to create that situation, not one.
And I think Brett harp outed about it and took
it way too seriously afterwards, and I think today he
has a better perspective on him than he did back then.
But that's I think what it comes down to. I

(02:21:56):
don't think there was any risk that Vince. I don't
think it makes any sense based on what we know
history wise of that situation. And it is, as Bruce
Mitchell says, Geane, this is the most documented night in
wrestling history between the progessing Torch and the wrestling Observer.
If you go if you get the back issues or
read them online. The myths that have been perpetrated and

(02:22:18):
repeated by people who just didn't know the situation very
well have have taken on a life with their own,
but in reality, flight take on it. It was a
measuring contest and Vince and Vince wanted to stick it
to Brett for having a big ego, and Brett didn't
want to lose in Canada and Vince won on that night.

Speaker 26 (02:22:42):
Longing for some nostalgia or maybe you want to learn
some wrestling history, don't miss the Nineties Past cast every
Friday on the PW Torch Daily Cast Feed. Alex and
Patrick will transport you thirty years into the past by
taking you through the Torch issue from that very weak,
the news from the WWF and WCW, and all the

(02:23:03):
happenings from across the wrestling industry in real time as
The Torch reported it thirty years ago. That's the nineties
Pass cast every Friday on the PW Torch Daily Cast.

Speaker 15 (02:23:12):
Feed, showing out their friends again. Do you think over
time it's gonna lose the significance because he then forgave
him for all of Hart's death, which in my opinion
was a real big factor why stayed away.

Speaker 3 (02:23:34):
Yeah, I think that's another thing that kind of put
things in perspective for everybody. I mean, I you know,
I thought two big of a deal was being made
out of it at the time because and here's why.
And I think this is what Brett didn't realize. Nobody
thought Brett Hart lost to Shawn Michaels in Canada. Nobody
everybody knew Brett Hart did lose. It was a best
case scenario for Brett. I don't understand where he thought

(02:23:58):
that he was hurt by that his ego was hurt
because a practical joke was played on him, a severe
practical And I don't mean to downplay if I take
Fredville that means just sound like you know, it was,
you know, whip cream and somebody's underwear at camp or something.
I don't mean it that way, but that's what it
came down to, was Vince being a prankster. But it
was because massive eagles were on the line, but Bret

(02:24:21):
never There wasn't one fan in the world who thought
Brett Hart lost to Shawn Michaels in Canada. Everybody knew
Brett got screwed. So Bret got out of it without
actually having good job to Shawn Michaels. And all Brett
had to do, and this has been said before, is say,
wwe was so scared Seawan Michaels would never be able
to beat me, that nobody in that company could beat me.

(02:24:43):
That they paid off for referee or not paid off.
But you know, convinced a referee to throw the match.
That's all Brett had to say. And then he's a winner.
But because he pouted, he made Vince McMahon the winner,
and all that in the reason Brett was really upset
is Vince McMahon in the end to have more power
than him to orchestrate that certain sense. Okay, now I

(02:25:03):
don't jeans to your spericisic question. I think the seriousness
of it or the significance of it has dropped over time.
I think at the time, if you read the cover
stories that I wrote on it, it's one of the
most It's one of the stories I wrote the most
about in terms of a lot of behind the scenes
perspectives at the time, along with a lot of editorials
and follow up. One of the things that I thought

(02:25:24):
was it was gonna make wrestlers never trust in Japan again.
But what ended up happening is a lot of people
in the company sided with Finn against Brett or thought ah,
they both were kind of out of line and they
didn't think that type of circumstance would ever come up
against the perfect storm of the long time veteran wrestler
with a delicate ego and a lot of pride in

(02:25:47):
what he did against vincuc Mann, who likes to win
every battle with any wrestler, especially when who's leaving his company,
even though he's the one who sent him packing. So
I think it has lost some significance. It's a fascinating story,
but helpsing into historic you know obviously, like you said,
the owen Hart death, I think put it all in perspective.

Speaker 15 (02:26:06):
Oh so, basically, do you see Brett like remaining as
long as he enjoys himself because I think I think McMahon,
since Hogan is rotting away in t Anda, I think
McMahon used him.

Speaker 11 (02:26:18):
As his legend, so he always treats him with respect.

Speaker 15 (02:26:21):
I mean the game of an appreciation I had an
MSG and I think Bretteart enjoys it.

Speaker 11 (02:26:25):
He kind of feeds his z go in a way.

Speaker 3 (02:26:27):
Well, and that's why I thought that, you know, Brett
being as as negative and I will never ever go
back and I'll never forgive him. It just was so
over the top. It kind of proved And again I
think this was wrong to do what he did, because
there were other solutions that were less disruptive. But Brett's
reaction after the fact I thought was an eighty five
on a one to ten scale in terms of what

(02:26:49):
was appropriate for the circumstances, because he could have just smiled,
showed up on Nipro and as I said, just said,
wwwe was so worried no one would beat me. They
had to have the referee, you know, throw the match.
I mean, that's all he had to say. And then
he one he never and he's never lost the title.
He could say, I never lost the title. I'm the
uncrin I'm the I am the champion who never lost
the title, and and and he could have carried that

(02:27:10):
as as a Vince would have done him a favor
had he spun it the right way. But in retrospect
now I think it is a long time ago. I
think both people are in different places. I think Brett
wants to be on television. I think Vince, like you say,
sees Brett as a legend and it's important to Vince
to have somebody who had that much time in his
company not be bitter forever, like like Bruno Summers question,
stay Bruno's bitter forever.

Speaker 5 (02:27:31):
Brunos just moved on.

Speaker 3 (02:27:32):
You know, if you get Bruno to talk about it,
he'll be negative. But I don't think he wakes up
every day just going oh that. Vince McMahon, like I
just he just moved on in life. You know, he's
gone to his chafter And I think Vince wants a
symbolic forgiveness from Brett because Vince took a lot of
heat from what he did and deservedly so. And I
think having the two on the stage at the same time,
I think is therapeutic for both of them. That said,

(02:27:52):
I don't know how good of friends they'll end up
being in coming years. They probably each will still have
their separate lives.

Speaker 15 (02:27:59):
And questions. Do you see uh you see a j
Lee replacing Mickey James in terms of what Mickey James
go out to the.

Speaker 11 (02:28:06):
Company in terms of her role as a spunky baby
face part.

Speaker 15 (02:28:10):
So the see.

Speaker 3 (02:28:14):
I don't know. I mean, does I hate to be
I hate to be dismissive of it. But does it
even matter who gets pushed in w W in the
women's divission when the philosophy clearly is nobody is that
much bigger than anybody else. And Vince doesn't want another China,
another Sable, another Wendy Richter for that matter, He learned
that lesson early. And I think there's a parody that

(02:28:36):
is gonna be consistent within WWE, and everybody's gonna fill
the slot, and and some will do so successfully or
not successfully. I thought Mickey was really good at as
the role that she played and underutilized, and I don't
know who has the best chance to replace that. I
thought Gail Kim was great in TNA and when they
and when TNA made an insultingly low offer to retain

(02:28:57):
their number one rating star, and I mean, that's still
one of the biggest stories from a couple of years ago.
Gail Kim was consistently the number one ratings get her
along with Austam Kong on TNA Impact and they lovolved
her and offer under fifty thousand dollars And I'm being
generous and saying that and guaranteed money. It's just it
was insulting and they thought, oh, Taylor Wild will replace her,

(02:29:19):
and you know, no, no disrespect to Taylor Wild, but
she's not Gail Kim that she just doesn't have that
same if factor that Gail in that circumstance had, And
you can see WWE gus Gaale Kim, and they don't
give her any kind of a special push because they
don't want anybody seeming like they can demand more money
or more attention or hold them up. It's by design.
The women's division is a Noveltyeda insct Man and Kevin

(02:29:39):
Dunn and the whole WWE team, and they don't want
any egos out of control, so they keep everybody neutral.
Michelle McCool gets a little bit more of a push
because of who she's married to now, and they kind
of figure, well, she's part of the family and undertaker,
will keeper in you know, quote keep her in line
in not in a sexis sense, but in the sense
of we're fine financially, don't worry about it, go with
the flow, and don't create heat for me. And so

(02:30:01):
I think that's the situation there right now, All right,
We're now in the final fifteen minutes, so let's keep
rolling through calls and go to area go seven two four.
Thanks for holding all the time. Please state your name
and where you're from.

Speaker 5 (02:30:11):
Hey Waite, this is Dave in Pittsburgh.

Speaker 3 (02:30:13):
Hey Dave, thanks for calling. What's in your mind today?

Speaker 5 (02:30:17):
I have I have a I guess a calm man.

Speaker 9 (02:30:19):
I'm not much of a conspiracy theorist, but do you
think it's possible that, yeah, WWE is doing all this
like cutting on their own company, dropping a lot of
TNA wrestlers names, just having these stupid segments. Do you
do you think it's all like a plan for something
bigger to like get back to the basics, because I

(02:30:40):
think that's what that's what wrestling well WW in particular
needs to do. Just get back to the basics. Give
give us a reason to want to watch. I don't
want to see Edge beat up a computer. It sounds
stupid even saying that. I can't believe, like, I know,
watch something like that, But I mean I want to see,
you know, previous caller today said something I can't what

(02:31:04):
I was gonna say, like you get back in the day,
you'd get two like marquee matchups, and then like the
caller earlier was talking about, like the high flyers, like
the Evan Bourns and John Morris's, they need this guys
in the undercards, you know, that can sell pay reviews
the same way a big match can.

Speaker 5 (02:31:25):
You know.

Speaker 9 (02:31:25):
But I don't want to see Randy Orton and John
Cena again.

Speaker 5 (02:31:28):
You know.

Speaker 3 (02:31:29):
It's I think people buy. I think people by I'll
go back to day, but I'll jump in with this.
I think people by pay per view is not just
for the star power of this big star against that
big star. I think part of it is there's this memory.
And I'm not saying they sit here and and and
put it in their heads and words, but there's a
memory of having a really good time consistently for three hours.

(02:31:51):
And I think if you have a week under card
or a lumbering under card full of Teddy Biassi, Cody Rhodes,
the Miss Seams, Drew mac and Tired Dolf Ziegler, every
one of those wrestlers I'm a fan of, but I'm
not a fan of a whole card full of everybody
wrestling that style at that size. You need to have
a dynamic taking division or somebody like Yo Kim. It

(02:32:13):
just comes out there with tons of energy, NonStop energy.
You need to have more interesting, a wider variety of
interesting moves and holes, and they just don't do that
often enough. Now, maybe we'll get a taste of that
on Sunday with John Morrison and Daniel Bryan in the
mix in that match, and that might be a really
good match, even though it's a submission match. They might
get a lot of high flight moves. And but I

(02:32:34):
think that athleticism is part of it. And the first
thing Dave you said is getting back to the basics.
The way that I phrase it is I think wrestling
bookers and promoters need to be thinking constantly about this
phrase and everything should revolve around this phrase, the thrill
of victory and the agony of defeats. If everything you
do is based on wrestlers being motivated to attain the

(02:32:57):
thrill of victory or achieve the thriller victory or avoid
the agony of defeat, and you accentuate that when in
every match, when you win, you show the wrestler experiencing
a thriller victory, and you always show a wrestler like
Chris Jericho in the last couple of months, the agony
of defeat. If you get across the idea that winning
and losing matters a lot, and it affects them. Everything

(02:33:21):
that happens in that ring means more, and every win
lost means more, and that is I think, ultimately getting
back to the basics. What's more basic than wanting the
thrill of victory. Whether it's beating a rival of yours
in a grudge match or earn moving yourself up to
contender rankings, winning a title, or defending a title, that's
a thrill of victory. Everything about all sports is that
thriller victory a defeats The phrase is stolen from the

(02:33:42):
wide World of sports, opening in the nineteen seventies.

Speaker 1 (02:33:45):
Give yourself a reason to look forward to going to
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Subscription details at PW torch dot com slash paper copy.
It's twelve pages every week, packed with my TV reports,
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(02:34:07):
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(02:34:29):
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Speaker 9 (02:34:42):
Go ahead, Dave, Okay, just three quick comments so you
can get the other calls. First off, Like back in
ten years ago, you said you need people have a
reason to want to watch a pay per view for
three hours. I remember four, five, six, seven of my
buddies would get together and we all watched the pay
per view like it, like every single one, because they

(02:35:02):
were all worth watching. Okay, if I buy a pay
per view now, I'm usually usually by myself or maybe
one of my buddies will come over and watch it
with me. But the second thing I wanted to say
was like Austin and Rock whenever they were feuding, like
up Pro WrestleMania, fifteen. I think that was whenever he
came out with the zamboni and spread everybody with beerd

(02:35:24):
Austin did, like he still talked about because I had
just watched it recently, he still talked about the main
goal was winning the title off the rock at WrestleMania fifteen.
Like promos were great and it was highly entertaining, but
this the main goal was still like him chasing after
the belt and it's just not like that now. And

(02:35:47):
the third thing I wanted to say was gimmick pay
per views suck.

Speaker 3 (02:35:52):
They're they're terrible because.

Speaker 9 (02:35:55):
Like, okay, they're gonna have a hell of the self.
This is not enticing to buy. There needs to be
a reason for these guys to be in a hell
in the cell, not just oh, it's a hell on
the cell pay per view by so you.

Speaker 3 (02:36:07):
Can see down the cave.

Speaker 9 (02:36:08):
We're guaranteed to not see any blood. And you know,
I had called the other day and may mention about
the blood, but I mean, it could be a good
match without blood. But there needs to be a reason
to have a hell of a cell match. And just
because it's a pay per view in October, that's not
a good enough reason to have a hell sell Dave.

Speaker 3 (02:36:27):
I agree with you everything you just said. I mean,
I agree, I mean I think the solutions lie and
and like you said, getting back to the basics. Thanks
for your call, yep, cool, appreciate it. Let's keep your
also calls Eric code one one one, Thanks for holding.
Please state your name and where you're from. Yeah, this
is caller X part great show. Well, keep the torch burning.

(02:36:51):
Listen every day, Cool. What's on your mind today? A
couple quick comments. I know you got limited on the time.
Here's we'll try and breathe quicks a can here. Michelle
McCool is not where she is because she's the Undertaker's wife.
Mccool's has got it all. She's athletic, she's smart, she

(02:37:13):
handles the power well, she's well grounded. There's a reason
they pushed her ahead. Had nothing to do with the Undertaker.
It is worth I'll jump in. It is worth saying
that I agree that a woman wrestler who has a
good personality can work in the ring should get a hat.
But I don't know that I think she's become the

(02:37:33):
There's been other women wrestlers who have had a lot
of good assets who haven't been pushed above everybody else
because they wanted parody. And I'm saying Michelle McCool I'm
not dissing her and things. She didn't work hard to
get where she's at, although she had some attitude issues
and ruffled some feathers in the locker room at times
early on. But anybody who breaks through that parody that

(02:37:57):
Vincent Manon demands, basically in the women's vision, there's an exception.
There's there's kind of that exception. And I think with
with her, the reason that she might stand out a
little more now does have a little something to do
with take her I would I would not rule that
out as a factor for some of the extra TV
time that she gets compared to some of the others. Oh,
she takes she takes care of her body. She doesn't

(02:38:19):
walk around as a beard belly like Mickey James did. Yeah,
you know, I think the world perceives I think wwe
perceives that all women look like you know, a woman
who you find at a strip club, and I think
you'll you'll find evidence of that. You'll find evidence of this.
There's a lot of people who would much rather spend
time with Mickey James and Michelle McCool but that type

(02:38:41):
of body type, you know, to say that she's got
a beer. Mickey James is getting a hard time about
her size, the same way that Moura or that Norah
Greenwall was, Molly Holly was, and and and that has
been a pattern in w W. And it's important to
know the history of of the the the repugnant added
tude and the way that the women are talked about

(02:39:02):
and treated behind the scenes in WWE to understand that
Mickey James wasn't in the wasn't. It wasn't because Mickey
was the one exception. Any woman who doesn't show this
that scrip her body, that that fitness model body gets
heat behind the scenes a WWE. And the fact is
that there's a lot of men who like a lot
of different body types, and there's a lot of different

(02:39:24):
sized athletes out there in all sports. So I think
saying everybody has to be like Michelle McCool, I just
think it's a boring women's division. That's but you look
at a girl like Caitlyn Now, who's coming up. By
the way, you go to ww dot com and vote
for Caitlin, but you look at the girl like Kaitlyn.
I mean, she's a total package. I mean, she comes
from a fitness weightlifting background, that's not a strip of bottle.
She she's healthy, she's athletics, she's in shape, she's and

(02:39:47):
the push they're giving her, you know, with this fight
coming up with Vicky, I think that's just going to
lead to something big for her. But I hope you're right.
I hope you're right. But I mean, Natalia is maybe
one of is top tier women's worker in that company.
And she's she's a model though she's a chunky monkey,
that's my point. She's she's not she's relegated to being

(02:40:10):
part of an undercard take team act and she's not
a featured female performer. And let's face it, she's got
a boring Canadian personality. Okay, she's got the person she's
she's the lance storm of the women's division.

Speaker 19 (02:40:21):
Let's face it.

Speaker 3 (02:40:21):
Okay, let's be honest. But I'm not doing real quick.
I know you got to call her all bequeath to
the other callers there, but we got four minutes for
four more callers, So you're email. We'll go ahead, go ahead,
unless you run. No, no, no, No, you've been You've
been on Hope forever. Go. You've definitely got time for
you another point, Well, I actually forgot my other points,
so sorry about that. All right, we'll call tomorrow. Sames

(02:40:44):
called will be here with Greg Park. Let's go to
Eric code four one zero. Thanks for your ford, Thank
you for holding. I'm sorry. Please state your name and
where you're from.

Speaker 19 (02:40:52):
Jose from Baltimore.

Speaker 3 (02:40:54):
Hey, okay, part of the jay trends here?

Speaker 19 (02:40:57):
Yeah, yeah, What what do you think about seeing of
being the GM?

Speaker 3 (02:41:03):
Hmmm?

Speaker 19 (02:41:04):
Seeing of being the GM? And uh, I mean, you
know with the kind of hip hop references that the
the GM was doing quote unquote, maybe that that'll say
why he's messing with edge and turns seen a heel
eventually after Triple H comes back. Uh, and then you
can set up Sena and take her at Mania was

(02:41:26):
seen being a heel?

Speaker 3 (02:41:28):
Hm hmm. I I'd have to run through all of
the GM's decisions in my mind to think to see
if it if it was consistent. It would be hard,
I think at times for him to have sent an
email in response to something that's happened when Sina was
in the ring.

Speaker 19 (02:41:43):
Well, they might care about stuff making sense. I'm just
saying where they're gonna go they care about that.

Speaker 3 (02:41:50):
I hate that.

Speaker 5 (02:41:51):
I hate that.

Speaker 3 (02:41:51):
We can just say that, you know, don't you hate that?
Don't you that? I mean they can hear right up
like decode what's going on and you goes, oh no,
they're not paying attention to that. Why are you thinking?

Speaker 19 (02:41:58):
The computer? Right, the computer was feeling pain, so you
know what I mean.

Speaker 15 (02:42:03):
You know, so.

Speaker 19 (02:42:04):
There's no thought going to there's going to be given
to something making sense.

Speaker 3 (02:42:08):
Yeah, was that was the computer feeling pain in the
low point of the year. Definitely, like stupid stuff and
the wrestling. Yeah, And I think it was like it
was the John Cena and JBL's limo, you know, a
couple of years ago that that that Oh no, you're.

Speaker 19 (02:42:22):
Hurting me that that was, or or when May Young
gave the chicken, you know, birth to the chicken. It's
that type of stuff, and it's along that line. Vince
week Man humor, Well.

Speaker 3 (02:42:34):
I think it's an intriguing idea. I think all I
think everything is on the table right now given what
h what's gone on with the ratings anyway, Hote, thanks
for holding that whole time for that please call again tomorrow.
Let's spreads sweet at least one We're called five five
nine A question or college for you?

Speaker 12 (02:42:49):
Yeah, this is Stephen Kelly. It's the Hey with SmackDown
being live on Friday, do you foresee any chance that
smacked on the only lives but not on Fridays because
that will hinder.

Speaker 3 (02:43:01):
Their weekend house shows? But maybe going to Tuesday.

Speaker 12 (02:43:04):
Sci Fi has had a wrestling show on Tuesday the
last couple of years. DC's Smackdowe going live on Tuesday night.

Speaker 3 (02:43:11):
I do think it's a possibility. I mean there's more
expense in going live. I mean WWE cuts corners in
that they find creative ways to not do the Pyro
show every week now because that's an expensive that's an
expensive way to start the show every week. If they
felt it made it enough of a difference in the ratings,
I think they'd consider it. I think the fact it's
kind of intriguing that on some listings it's WWE SmackDown
not Friday Nights Backdown, But we don't want to read

(02:43:32):
too much into that. It could be how much space
people had to fill up a lot. I could see
it moving to Tuesdays.

Speaker 5 (02:43:38):
Live.

Speaker 3 (02:43:38):
I could also if the ratings keep dropping and one
night Night's Football is killing Raw, I could see Raw
moving to Thursdays. I could see them doing Raw Live
on Thursdays, going you know, knocking Impact off network or
off that day, and in SmackDown Live on Fridays and
then just go into the weekend on Saturday and Sunday.
It might make a little more sense in terms of
promoting pay per views only four days ahead of time,

(02:44:00):
So it's on the I think it's on the table
as a flight possibility. Seven seven zero. Please say your
name and where you're from with about a five or
ten seconds question or comment.

Speaker 8 (02:44:08):
Hey, Larry from Atlanta for the after show, can you
rattle off in complete detail the negatives about Linda McMahon
that people should keep in mind in the for the
Connecticut Center.

Speaker 3 (02:44:18):
Rate sounds good? And Larry call tomorrow when James and
Greg are on, because I bet we can James will
have that at a sinker. It's definitely a thing worth mentioning.
Sorry to six fourth, sixth and seven seven three. We
are out of time. Thanks Erroudy for joining me. Tune
and tomorrow for James Caldwell and Greg Parks. On Friday
edition the PW Torch Live Cast.

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(02:48:38):
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