15 YRS AGO LIVECASTS: Keller & Mitchell rank top stars of Raw era, plus Luna Vachon, Flair, Angle, Heyman, titles in TNA, SD

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Speaker 2 (01:06):
Now, PW Torch and Spreaker bring you the Wade Keller
Pro Wrestling Podcast.

Speaker 3 (01:15):
Today on the.

Speaker 1 (01:16):
Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast, We've got a doubleheader of
PTERW Torch live cast from fifteen years ago, starting with
the October twenty seventh episode and then the August thirtieth episode.
On the August thirtieth episode, by the way, Bruce Mitchell
joined me to rank the top stars of the Raw era.
Of course, Stone called Steve Austin was number one, but
then what about Chris Jericho, Brett Hart, VINCC Mann, The Rock,

(01:37):
John Cena, Undertaker, Shawn Michaels, Triple A Twitter. They all
fit in. Also a TNA phone call at the end.
But before that, James Caldwell hosted with PW Torch nostalgia
specialist Brian Hoops to talk about the deaths of Lunavashan,
Tony Bourne and twenty one year old wrestling student Jeremy Wood.
They took live calls on TNA's impact Dixie Carter moving
more into a character role on TV. In the entire

(01:59):
promotion Shoe Now built around keeping Dixie Carter interested in
running the show cynical view but also historically often accurate,
and the signs were there for this a confusing and
silly and counterproductive impact with EV two point zero versus
Fortune versus Sting, and Ash versus Hogan and Jared versus
some other TNA title competitors just making things confusing. He

(02:20):
also talked about the lack of emphasis on quests for
championship and the overuse of herbiage on building the company up,
Paul Hayman's role in wrestler health issues from his time
running ECW, Kurt Angle's future in TNA and should he
go back to WWE, w wrestler's getting paid if they're
sent down to Florida Championship Wrestling, and more. And then
in the previously VP after show, they talked about Magnus

(02:43):
and Desmond Wolf. Of course they are now Nick Oldis
and Nigel McGinnis. They also talked about Summer Slam rematch,
that Alsigercopa, Kingston feud, and Rick Blair's interview on ESPN
and where he's at in TNA, and much more.

Speaker 2 (02:56):
So.

Speaker 1 (02:57):
Just a loaded couple episodes here. We start with the
cold Well and Hoops show, and then Bruce and I
ranked the top row stars. So let's get to it.
This is the Way Color Prossing podcast for Monday, September eighth,
twenty twenty five.

Speaker 4 (03:13):
You are listening to the PW Torch live cast. This
is PW Torch Assistant editor James Calgwell hosting today for Friday,
August the twenty seventh, and I'm joined by Torch Nostalgia
columnist Brian Hoops. Brian, how are you doing today?

Speaker 5 (03:28):
Oh, I'm doing really well. How about yourself today?

Speaker 2 (03:31):
James doing good.

Speaker 4 (03:33):
A bit of a busy day to say the least,
with two more wrestling deaths in the news today. Brian,
right before we came on the air, you talked about
with up four in the last seven days.

Speaker 6 (03:46):
It's just.

Speaker 4 (03:49):
I mean, is it just one of those things where
it's a coincidence or I mean, what do you make
of You know Addie and Lunam Shan, you know Tony Born,
I mean, mister wrestling too. Is having his a triple
bypass or a double or triple bypass surgery today?

Speaker 7 (04:08):
Johnny Walker had his triple bypass surgery today and he
came through real successfully from what I understand, So there
is some good news today that he's gonna be well.
It's kind of a long road of recuperation.

Speaker 5 (04:19):
I put this on the site.

Speaker 7 (04:21):
Earlier today that after his surgery he will have probably
be released from the hospital within a week if things
go well, and then you'll have a long road to
have at least six months and a lot of times
longer because he's a little bit older. It could be
six to twelve months of recovery for him before he
fills one hundred percent again. But it sounds like the
surgery went well anyway.

Speaker 4 (04:40):
Yeah, so that's some good news to sprinkle in with
similar wrestling death obviously, the one getting the most attention
is Luna Mashan former nineteen nineties WWF valet manage your
real standout character on ww television, Brian, what do you
make of her death and what's maybe talk a little

(05:02):
bit about her impact on wrestling in that era, and
how do you think she'll be remembered? You know, fifteen
years after was I guess fifteen years after her one
of her major runs in WWF, and then she had
one a little bit later on in the late nineties
that lasted until two thousand, so you know, you know
about a ten to fifteen windows since.

Speaker 2 (05:23):
She was last on national television.

Speaker 4 (05:26):
Let's talk a little bit about Luna and her influence
and how do you think.

Speaker 2 (05:29):
She'll she'll be remembered.

Speaker 7 (05:31):
Yeah, she came from a wrestling family. When we talked
Luna Vershan, her real name was Gertrude. I believe that
everyone called her Luna, and that's how everyone knew her.
She is the daughter of Paul the Butcher. Was Sean,
who was actually inducted into the George Tregels Luthez Hall
of Fame this summer in July and Water Delilah. Interesting
that she was not there in attendance. He had a

(05:53):
lot of family there, including his brother Mad Dogs with
Sean came in from Omaha to be part of of
his induction ceremony. And you know, so she came from
a family. Her dad was a wrestler. Her her uncle
Matt Doc was obviously a wrestler as well.

Speaker 2 (06:10):
Her.

Speaker 7 (06:11):
She was living with her mother in I believe it
in North Carolina or somewhere. I'm not exactly sure, but
she was living with her mother, and because her own
house had burned down just a few weeks ago and
she lost everything in the fire. So I know she's
had some problems from a medical standpoint. Previously, she was bipolar,
diagnosed with that, and so she was on medication for that.

(06:33):
We don't know a cause of death at this point,
and I really hate to speculate on anything, but you know,
She was forty eight years old, so still very young
in life. And you hate to think that there was
some mixture of some medication, that something that happened, something
went wrong, an overdose or something. You just hate to
speculate on something like that. But she was found at

(06:54):
her mother's house and she had I believe two sons
from her first marriage she was married to someone, and
her second marriage she was married to a wrestler part
of the Black Hearts, and then her last marriage, probably
most notable, was to David Heath, who was also a
member of the Black Hearts tag team, and and she
was divorced from him. So she survived by her two sons.

(07:15):
So it's probably a closer twenty or twenty two years
old by now.

Speaker 4 (07:19):
Yeah, well you said, we don't know the cause of
death yet, and there's just no information right now.

Speaker 2 (07:25):
What exactly the cause was. So but yeah, like you.

Speaker 4 (07:28):
Said, Brian, she had that that documented.

Speaker 2 (07:31):
Bipolar disorder manic depressant, So you know, we'll find out.

Speaker 4 (07:36):
We'll continue to keep tabs on on Luna and also, Brian.
The other big you know news item and related to
wrestler death today was tough Tony Bourne, the father of
the art. You know, the born who played who played Pink.

Speaker 2 (07:51):
On Yeah BESTV So talk a little bit about about him.

Speaker 4 (07:55):
You had that story up on pob torch dot com
today and by the way, you can if you're listening
if you want to.

Speaker 2 (08:00):
Read up on these stories and a lot of other
news in the news today pterb.

Speaker 4 (08:04):
Torch dot com we have full coverage of these two
big stories.

Speaker 2 (08:08):
Brian talked a little bit about Tony Bourne and some
thoughts on his death today.

Speaker 7 (08:15):
Well, he was about seventy eight years old, I believe,
and living in Washington at the time of his death.
He had been in bad health. And you know, so
when we talk about wrestler's dying here recently that there's.

Speaker 2 (08:26):
Been five of them.

Speaker 7 (08:27):
Two of them have been under fifty years old, but
thankfully scanned our agbar and Tony Bourne made it into
their seventies. And Tony is was a legendary wrestler in
the Oregon territory for Don Owens in the fifties, sixties
and the early part of the seventies before he retired
and got out of the business. And he was, you know,
a legendary hero. He was a tank team partner with

(08:49):
wrestlers who became Moot Dog Maine as fans Maine recognized
that name. They won the Pacific Northwest Heavyweight Take Team
Champions eleven different occasions in his run in Oregon, and
that's where Matt Bourne, his son who you mentioned, play
joint in the WWF and a ninety three ninety four run.
He was also worked in a lot of the other

(09:09):
territories us W A Mid South. He wrestled in WCW's
Big Josh for a time doing a Lumberjack Gemmick coming
from that Pacific Northwest area which he did call home
and Hewett he was, like I said, he was a
legendary figure. He helped a lot of guys either come
into the Pacific Northwest territory like a Curt handing Jess
you venture to help those guys get booked, or he

(09:31):
helped guys get started in their careers, such as his
son Matt Bourne. Buddy Rose was another guy who he
helped kind of gets into wrestling or get a break
into the promotion in don Owen and they actually had
a great territory going there until the national expansion really
took over. An interesting story. He was actually at one

(09:53):
time the father in law of Buddy Rose.

Speaker 5 (09:56):
And on TV, Buddy Rose was a heel.

Speaker 7 (10:00):
Wrestler and Matt Bourne was a baby face because he
was the son of tough Tony Bourne, who was such
a legendary figure, and they turned it into an angle
that really had some real life ramifications, really interesting story,
real quickly. Nineteen eighty one, they announced playboy Buddy Rose
was no longer a playboy and he had married, and
he married Tony Bourne's daughter, whose also name was Tony.

Speaker 5 (10:21):
Tony spelt it with the why and his daughter spelled
it a CEO.

Speaker 7 (10:24):
And I and Matt to keep the k fade, they
announced Matt Bourne on television told him that because even
though they were hated rivals, he would still respect him
because he was married to his sister, but he was
killing if he ever did anything to harm his sister.
And it turned out one time Buddy Rose hit his

(10:45):
wife and they called the cops. Matt Bourne came and
was beating up Buddy Rose in the front yard at
one time, and the police came and arrested both guys
and made the papers.

Speaker 2 (10:55):
And it really, if.

Speaker 7 (10:57):
In a strange way, had really solidified the angle they
were running on TV because they did have the police
reports now to back it up that this was something
that happened in real life.

Speaker 4 (11:06):
Yeah, it's a legit for you now, Yeah, exactly. Yeah,
that's a fascinating story. I'm glad you show that.

Speaker 2 (11:13):
Of course, we'll take h we'll take phone calls on
Luna as well as.

Speaker 4 (11:17):
Tony Bourne if you have more questions for Brian. Brian's
the expert. If you want to talk about the sort
of the nostalgia angle, especially on Tony Bourne.

Speaker 2 (11:27):
The number to call is six four, six nine eight.

Speaker 4 (11:32):
And of course we'll also talk about TNA impact and
reaction and last thing's three hours of programming. I don't
know if I have a TNA rant in me today.

Speaker 2 (11:42):
I thought I did earlier today, but perhaps a phone
callor too will get one out of me, as I
just you know, Brian, looking at.

Speaker 4 (11:49):
That show last night, it's the old Folks Home Show.
It's the uh, it's the not cool factor. I mean
that the show has no cool factor with Logan and
Staying and Jared and Nash and mcfoley and then Rick
Rick Flaer is cool no matter what, even in a TNA,
even in a TNA context.

Speaker 2 (12:09):
But yeah, Dixie Carter is a TV character.

Speaker 4 (12:12):
Carter's husband's involved, Eric Bischoff's involved. I mean, on and
on down the list. They're just hogging and eating up
TV time basically basically just trying to keep Dixie interested
in this product. And I mean, Brian, what did you
see a last night's show in terms of how they

(12:33):
are involving Dixie basically just keep her interested in this product.

Speaker 7 (12:38):
You know, I had to laugh earlier, James, when you
were emailing me about today's program. You called it TNA garbage,
and it made me laugh because it's what it really was.
You know, we have teen, we have Dipti Carter coming
out to the ring with her own entrance music. Now,
you know, and this is the lady who on Dixie Carter,
you shoot product that she said she didn't like to
be television character, but yet she's making these VBD products.

(13:02):
She has her own entrance music, she's on a lot
of the segments on TNA, and now we have her
husband making an appearance on TNA. So we're getting the
whole family involved.

Speaker 5 (13:12):
And you're absolutely right.

Speaker 7 (13:13):
It's just a lot of stuff thrown out the hair
for that. It's really incomprehensible.

Speaker 8 (13:19):
And you know, I thought there's a.

Speaker 7 (13:20):
Big change in last night's Reaction show as well, compared
to the very first one. I was impressed with the
first Reaction show from the standpoint they really have focused
on three main angles or three segments, and that's all
they talked about in that reaction and to help things
sync in and it really helped you remember the angles
that they were running. And last night they must have

(13:41):
had twenty to thirty different interviews in their reaction program
and nothing sank in.

Speaker 5 (13:45):
You know, maybe the.

Speaker 7 (13:47):
Segment on generation me. But just so much happened in
that program last night that I couldn't keep track of
it all. And you know, I can think you can
probably go into the RAND and I could too, But
there's a lot of logicals that are being ignored in
T and A right now, and it has hurt them
in the past and can continue to hurt them in
the future if they don't shore that booking up.

Speaker 4 (14:10):
And you're right, I mean, I've really enjoyed speaking of
Reaction I enjoyed, you know, the first show I thought
ran a little bit too long, could have been cut down,
But like you said, that first edition was very focused,
and last night's was just it was just all over
the place and the biggest, the biggest issue that I had.
I mean, first of all, it's like this, It's like NXT,

(14:34):
where half of it is presented as a work shoot,
half of it is presented as storyline driven.

Speaker 2 (14:42):
It's a mess. So and that I mean NXT.

Speaker 4 (14:45):
Has very much been like that throughout its it's two
season run.

Speaker 2 (14:48):
Last night's show was so much.

Speaker 4 (14:50):
About you know, spots and keeping a spot and who
brought this guy up? And we're trying to build this
company up. Even on Impact as well, the same theme.
There's no discussion of quest for championships, quests for opportunities
to elevate yourself up the car by winning matches. It's
all about you know, who's got a spot, who's trying.

Speaker 2 (15:11):
To hold onto a spot.

Speaker 4 (15:12):
That they missed the fundamentals of wrestling and how to
tell a story, and that was throughout that entire reaction show.
It drove me crazy how she said this company doesn't
get it.

Speaker 2 (15:24):
You know, it's it's it's just maddening.

Speaker 4 (15:27):
That's kind of word I use to some up that show.
Because they have so many tools, they have a very
cutting edge presentation.

Speaker 2 (15:34):
They have these neat.

Speaker 4 (15:35):
Backstage interviews, yet the content is so off base.

Speaker 2 (15:41):
And so inefficiently presented that it's just a waste.

Speaker 4 (15:45):
It doesn't matter what tools you have when you don't
know how to use them. And that's what that show was.
I mean, all three hours was the same thing. I mean,
Jeff Jarrett talking to Samoa Joe about I inspired you
on the independence and we helped, you know, build this
company up. And I mean there's a lot in there,
but the idea that we helped build this company up.
The idea is that Slow Joe one matches and he

(16:07):
gained prestige because he won matches, not because of whatever
Jared's talking about.

Speaker 2 (16:13):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (16:15):
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(16:37):
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Speaker 2 (16:45):
Go ahead, Brian, what was let's get in your reaction
to that?

Speaker 7 (16:48):
Look, You're exactly right. It was three hours continuous of
NonStop nonsense booking and talking and just just three hours
complete of just nothing to slow down and let you
absorb anything.

Speaker 5 (17:03):
I mean, you had.

Speaker 7 (17:04):
One interview and the reaction program talking from fully talking
about Rick Flair and immediately cut to another interview talking
about another statement, and then to another interview to another statement,
and just nothing was able.

Speaker 5 (17:15):
To sync in.

Speaker 7 (17:16):
They really need to slow the product down and decide
tonight we're gonna talk three angles or three programs that
we're going to push. We have, you know, a couple
of weeks to the pay per view. Let's talk about
three programs tonight, three programs next week, and just focus
on those three instead of trying to hit ten or
fifteen things and see what happens. You know, I mean,
your booking is so bad at this point that they

(17:40):
show the you know, the big angle at the beginning
or at the end of the show where everybody's fighting
everybody and you've got and EV two is making the
run in Unfortunate and pretty soon there's a match an
ounce between Taboo and Doug Williams because Williams went after
Saboo during this big melee and I had no idea

(18:00):
that he did because there was so much going on,
so many people in the ring and the arena fighting,
you couldn't tell who was fighting who, and have just
everything was such a cluster. So then you have to
go the reaction show and they explained that this is
why they had a match, and you know, okay, it's
great that they explain why, but I certainly don't remember
anybody attacking anybody because nothing stood out. It was everything

(18:22):
was thrown against the wall. And just if they would
have just had those two guys attacked, you know, if
somebody attacked somebody, maybe that would have stood out and
you could have a reason to get a match, and
then fans could have a reason to get behind that match.
The way it was presented, there's just absolutely no reason
to even care.

Speaker 4 (18:39):
And then you have you're executive Ry Brian and then
you have Sting and Nash opposite Hogan and Jarrett as
well as Bischoff and still looks an acts and feels
like a heel general manager.

Speaker 2 (18:54):
Type of character.

Speaker 4 (18:56):
And then and then backstage you have Sting and Nash
after after the beating, after Hogan lays out Staying.

Speaker 2 (19:02):
Then you have Staying choking at Rick Flair. Backstage.

Speaker 4 (19:05):
Now you have Stinging Nash shooting against Fortune, which is
shooting as EV two. At the same time, you have
Jarrett and Hogan footing against Nash am I losing track
of where we're going with this or and it's a mess.

Speaker 7 (19:22):
And Fortune wrestled the guys who are in the world
title tournaments the main event. So yeah, oh man, it
was just just so many things going on. You just
could not keep track of anything. And I mean, from
a logical standpoint, why did they book a tournament that
the final won't be until October?

Speaker 5 (19:42):
And then it's the same time when.

Speaker 7 (19:44):
RVD is supposed to come back from the supposed injuries
and wrestle. So what's the point of having a tournament
when you can't you know, they say you can't.

Speaker 5 (19:50):
Be without a champion.

Speaker 7 (19:52):
They're gonna be without a champion till October and RVD
is gonna come back anyway.

Speaker 4 (19:56):
Yeah, that's what drum me crazy about that. Reaction show
was you got Cogan talking about, uh, you know it's
a work. Shoot, brother, I'm going over Dixie's head to
make this decision. And the decision was, Oh, we need
a champion. You know, we gotta have a champion, so
we have to mad this tournament, exactly what Wade said
last week when when they kind of introduced this. Well,
if it's so desperate to have a champion, you waiting

(20:19):
two months, ye determined champion. It's just does anybody sit
down and think about these things and how they don't
make sense?

Speaker 2 (20:28):
No, it's it's maddening. But so of course we'll talk.

Speaker 4 (20:33):
We'll talk t and A, and if you have a
dissenting view, of course we welcome that, and we can
debate the merits or lack of merit of TNA's product.
As well as a lot of news, a lot of
stuff in the news, including Kurt Angle in another interview.

Speaker 2 (20:47):
Rick Blayer had an interview on ESPN.

Speaker 4 (20:50):
We can we'll talk about that probably in the after show,
but if you want to bring that up, we covered
that on Wednesday. So lots of news discuss also, like
we said, with Sean and Tony Bourne in the news,
with some wrestling deaths to report. Of course, we'll take
your phone calls on that as well anything else on
your mind. The number to call is six four six
seven night.

Speaker 2 (21:12):
Let's go to our first caller.

Speaker 4 (21:14):
This is the two eight one aery code, and I
believe this is Jay.

Speaker 2 (21:17):
So Jay, if you're with us, let us know what
your question is for a set.

Speaker 3 (21:22):
Hey, guys, how y'all doing?

Speaker 2 (21:23):
Today's good? I got your number remember right now? So good?
I see.

Speaker 3 (21:31):
I have a question about Paul Hayman's legacy. Okay, okay, Now,
as you all know, Vince Mickman always gets running through
the ringer for wrestling, dance, this, that and the start,
and yet he has responsible to an extent because he
set to the standards. But what about.

Speaker 8 (21:47):
Hayman and ECW and how many wrestlers.

Speaker 3 (21:49):
That have died on his watch or that have died recently?

Speaker 8 (21:53):
I believe the ECW.

Speaker 3 (21:55):
You know what, what is the general consensus between the
former ECW twent him? Because I'm sure not everybody is
the biggest Hayman fan, and I know he's been less
than honest with and yeah, what's your take on that?

Speaker 2 (22:10):
Yeah, Brian, go ahead and take that first.

Speaker 7 (22:13):
Well, you know, there's there's good and bad in Paul Hayman,
And you know, I'm one of the guys that would
say that he would be an improvement in TNA's booking
committee from the standpoint he knows how to make stars
and he knows how to elevate guys and get them over.

Speaker 2 (22:30):
That would be a real plus to have.

Speaker 7 (22:31):
Paul Hayman there in TNA to do that. The downside
with that is to what extent did Paul Haman go
in ECW to make those guys stars? There was chair
shots and tables being broken, and how many guys got
injured and you know currently still injured or.

Speaker 5 (22:50):
Hurt from that. Some of the things that they did.

Speaker 7 (22:54):
Are are going to be remembered because it was a
hardcore era, but it was extreme and two over the
time up and at what point do you draw the line?
You know, now we know what we know about concussions
and chair shots, it's ludicrous to try and do that
or duplicate that back in twenty ten. So, you know,
if Paul Hayman's legacy is ECW, which I think is

(23:16):
for the most part, he's going to go down in history,
is developing and creating stars and taking them to more
of a national level before the company went bankrupt. You know,
he also had to throw the caveat in there that
he did lose money to an extent for a short
time period. They became more of a national phenomenon over

(23:37):
a two to three year period than almost any other
regional promotion was able to come in that three year period.
But one of the reasons that they got over wasn't
from the standpoint that these guys were great workers, because
most of them were not. Most of the matches were
not very good, and in fact, most of the matches
had to have some sort of run in or kendall

(23:58):
stick or chair shot or whatever to make things interesting
or to hide I guess it should say the weaknesses
from a lot of the performers. So you know, there's
a caveat. I think that Paul Haman's legacy here that
you know, he has some culpability when we talk about
injuries and deaths and and that sort of thing. You know,
he can't be ignored just with this mentality that you

(24:21):
know he was he was a booking genius. Because there's
certainly a lot of applause, a lot of negatives that
you could point out at Paul Hayman as well.

Speaker 2 (24:28):
Yeah, I agree on that.

Speaker 4 (24:29):
He definitely shares a responsibility. And in the wrestler health issue,
it's the ECW style took its toll on a lot
of bodies, a lot of wrestlers. I mean, looking at
that TNA Hardcore Justice pay per view, how many people
could not be on that pay per view, either because
they're dead or they were too broken down or a
lot of the guys who were on that pay per

(24:50):
view already are broken down and and likely as a
result of that style in EA CW, and that's part
of Hayman's legacy, is is the wrestler health issue and
and how he contributed that. So yeah, good points on that, Brian.
You know, b shared WW gets the main focus on

(25:10):
that because they are the industry leader, and they've had
opportunities to make changes and they have it and they've
reacted very slowly. But yeah, Paul Ayman, as the leader
of ECW during the nineties definitely definitely deserves a spotlight
on him for wrestler health issues and and and in
allowing you know, we didn't have the research then, but

(25:30):
as as way Keller was writing about in the PW
Torch Newsletter and Bruce Mitchell and most of the Towards
staff it was a dangerous style that could not be sustained.
And you know one kindos stick shot in one match,
Well you need two or three in the next match
to have the same effect. Okay, Well then you need
five in the next match, and then you need six
in the next match. And you know, that's just an

(25:51):
example of how it was unsustainable and it was putting
wrestlers at risk. And it was was very obvious that
even if we didn't have that research back then, it
was clear and apparent that there were health risks involved.
So yeah, Hamy deserves the share of.

Speaker 2 (26:06):
The spot one in that area. So Jay, I'm glad
you brought it up.

Speaker 4 (26:09):
Is that's a good question and a good point to
bring up. Didn't you have any any follow up on
that or any other question?

Speaker 5 (26:16):
Well, I'm glad you are released.

Speaker 3 (26:17):
Hold on hexmounded on that because I heard Jim Cornat say,
you know, first you go through the table, then in
the next thing, you know, you have to stand on fire,
and then you have to go through the table with
the age virus with nails on it.

Speaker 2 (26:28):
And it was a little creepy.

Speaker 3 (26:30):
But but but one more question about SmackDown when Haymond
was booking. No, I don't know exactly when he was
let go from it, but I remember brock Lessener's chase
to the title to the Iron Man Max with Kurt Angle.
SmackDown was absolutely a phenomenal show. Do you know when
he was let go from that booking division and why?

Speaker 5 (26:50):
Exactly? Because they were out of sight.

Speaker 3 (26:53):
They were fight up until that point in my opinion.

Speaker 2 (26:56):
Good question, Jane. We appreciate the call.

Speaker 4 (26:58):
Brian, would do you remember the era and kind of
the circumstances round Hayman's departure and his role booking SmackDown.

Speaker 7 (27:07):
You know, I agree with him that that.

Speaker 2 (27:09):
Era was awesome.

Speaker 7 (27:10):
You know, they had great talent on there and great
booking of that talent, and so when you have those
two factors combined, you're gonna have some awesome promos, wrestling, matches, angles,
that sort of thing. And he's absolutely right. I think
his departure from SmackDown they did not coincide with when
they did the revival of E c W and and
Emon moved over to to book the ec W program

(27:35):
about in two.

Speaker 5 (27:35):
Thousand and five or so.

Speaker 4 (27:38):
Well, there were Okay, there was a there was a
time when what was he just shift into a manager
role and then he went to ov W. I mean
there was that gap when he was writing ov W
in O five I believe it was, and then was
brought what was that was the ov W after the revival,
after the One Night's Stand revival.

Speaker 2 (27:58):
Gosh that I think he I think.

Speaker 7 (28:01):
He went to ov W and wrote some of the
programming there and then did the revival in old tie.
So your timeline is about right. And then after the
you know, the December to Dismember pay per view that
bombed with like eighty eight thousand buys, I think that
was kind of the end of uh, you know, the
Paul Hayman era. E c W and McMahon pulled the
plug on everything, including Paul Hayman at that.

Speaker 2 (28:20):
Point, right. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (28:22):
Yeah, there was a transition period, I believe, from SmackDown
writer to predominantly just an ad Air manager involved in
those big show brock Lesser programs, kurd Angle as well
OBW and ECW deal.

Speaker 2 (28:37):
So I mean there was I mean, Brian, do you
remember specific.

Speaker 4 (28:42):
Reason why they took him out of that that writing
role was it just to shift him into some other
I just that that time period's kind of fuzzy. But
do you remember why that he was shifted away from
the writing role on smackdoes?

Speaker 5 (28:55):
No? I don't.

Speaker 7 (28:56):
I don't exactly remember. Somebody maybe in the chat room
because chime in or and let no, I don't. I
don't know for sure. I got a feeling that was
suppression things up. I don't know if there was some
backstage maneuvering that that happened, or if he just wanted
a break and was ready, you know, kind of burned
out from a crady standpoint.

Speaker 4 (29:12):
Yeah, that's probably a likely reason. Yeah, I mean, we'll
open up the chat room if you've got or if
you're listening live to us and drop this an email
at p tw B towards Live Cast at gmail dot com, and.

Speaker 2 (29:24):
We'll try to get a more thorough answer on Hayman.

Speaker 4 (29:27):
H Let's continue on to the phone lines. Let's go
to the five five nine here code.

Speaker 2 (29:31):
I believe this is Steve. Uh So, Steve, if you
with us, let us know what you have for us today.

Speaker 5 (29:37):
Yeah, this is Steve. Guy.

Speaker 2 (29:39):
I got I'm two for two. I memorize the numbers,
so go ahead, Steve.

Speaker 9 (29:44):
Yeah, I guess if you would, if you count that
that young kid who died in wrestling training, that that
would be five.

Speaker 5 (29:49):
That's four.

Speaker 4 (29:51):
Yeah, you know, I didn't even hear about that.

Speaker 2 (29:54):
Hell was his name. I just got a news tip
on that today.

Speaker 4 (29:57):
I hadn't heard about that at all as a kid
in Arkansas, twenty one years old. Jeremy Wood, I believe
was the name. I just got an email on it today.
I was actually about the about to cover that story
until the Luvan news happened and I went into covering that.
But yeah, that was a I believe, a twenty one
year old kid wrestling training and uh, I guess he

(30:20):
complained of brain headaches or.

Speaker 2 (30:24):
I guess I haven't read up enough on it. But Brian,
have you heard about that story on I mean, there's a.

Speaker 7 (30:30):
Couple, Yeah, there's a couple of different versions going around.
There's one that I think from his father and some
other sources are claiming that there's at least five different
hand print or hand impressions on his chest where he
was you know beaten, you know as almost like a
ritual beaten and ended up having some sort of internal

(30:51):
injuries from that. And died from that, And what the
wrestling school is saying is that is the case.

Speaker 5 (30:57):
He was doing some.

Speaker 7 (30:58):
Sort of a back backrops, just normal wrestling and felt
dizzy and sick and ended up dying. So there's probably,
you know, maybe a lot too coming here on a
very small indie type scale. That is a small wrestling school.
I can't even think of what the name of it is,
but there's a couple different versions going around one, you know,
one obviously party pointing responsibility at the wrestling school and

(31:21):
of course the wrestling school deflecting that responsibility.

Speaker 10 (31:26):
Need an extra dose of positivity in your wrestling podcasts,
will come join me Alan fourrel Over in the Progress
Paradise at Peter Torch vip as we BSk on the
bright side of wrestling and focus on some of the
great matches and shows from around the world, be it US, Japan,
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(31:47):
and the paradise too. And we've done fun historical shows
such as the We Love Liger series celebrating the glorious
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(32:10):
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Speaker 4 (32:32):
Yeah, and you know what I mean to me, It
fallows in the wrestling school. I mean, if you're if
you're a wrestling school and you're bringing in a twenty
one year old kid, it's your responsible to make sure
that a strecked out medically before you ever he ever
sets foot in your ring or your training camp, and
that you monitor him and you don't allow, you know,

(32:53):
the sort of ritualistic beatings that a lot of older
wrestlers feel that they need to give a younger guy
to break him in and I haven't.

Speaker 2 (33:00):
Pay his dues kind of that.

Speaker 4 (33:01):
Bob Holly jbl mindset from the w W Locker Room
in the mid two thousands, and you know, it falls
in the wrestling training school to monitor and to say
if a kid's up there doing backflips and high spots
and and trying to be an acrobat because that's what
he's seen on TV and he's kind of you know,

(33:22):
he's got that you know, stars in his eyes because
he's in a wrestling ring.

Speaker 2 (33:26):
You've got to ring.

Speaker 4 (33:27):
Him and you don't just let him just continue to
to set himself up for health issues or in this
case death by you know, there's gonna be some responsibility
as a wrestling training school.

Speaker 2 (33:38):
So you know, Brian, like he.

Speaker 4 (33:40):
Said that, there's several different stories, and I'm just kind
of getting caught up on this story today, so I
don't know if there's other circumstances and related to that,
but I mean, in general, it falls in the wrestling school.
If you're if you're a legitimate training school, training being
a keyword there. You've got to have some responsibility for
the kids who walk through your doors, especially as someone

(34:02):
who wants to go up there and do flips and
dives and probably doesn't have the basic training even down yet.
So I mean, it's kind of a fresh story to me.
So I'm this weekend, I'm going to researching a lot
more about it. See did you have a specific question
on that or any other follow up on it?

Speaker 5 (34:18):
Well?

Speaker 2 (34:18):
Sure, I was actually.

Speaker 9 (34:20):
Reading a couple of stories about it because it piqued
my interest, and I had read that the State Athletic
Commission had issued a statement saying that they don't regulate
training of professional wrestling. They regulate the actual stinction matches
and whatnot. But go and go switching over midst the
Shawn's if that's the way, do you guys see her

(34:42):
actually getting into the Hall of Fame. I mean, she
did just as much without actually capturing the women's title
as Sherry Martelvi.

Speaker 5 (34:49):
It's good question, Brian, what's your take on that, especially
now that she's she's died.

Speaker 7 (34:56):
I definitely don't see her getting in. You know, she
she probably had a very outside champ of getting in
when she was alive. But you know, they don't want
to induct too many deceased wrestlers unless they're a major
star from another area, like a gorgeous George Was, for example,
who went in this spring. But now that she died
at a young age, it almost brings up her points

(35:18):
a spotlight to him. Again, there's another wrestler that worked
for you, your company. We died under fifty years old. We
don't know the circumstances obviously, but they don't want any
type of that publicity. So I don't see her getting
in at all.

Speaker 2 (35:30):
If she was alive.

Speaker 5 (35:31):
She's been a long shot.

Speaker 7 (35:33):
You know, Sherry Martel definitely needs to go in because
she was such a figure in WWE, in WWF when
it wasn't you know, she was around, did a run
when they were pushing the women's title as kind of
an athletic title of built around a Launder Blaze or
Wie Masselli Medusa Masselli. In nineteen ninety three, they brought
her back to be a second to gold Dust in

(35:55):
a manager role. Other than that, she didn't have a
lot of contribution to WWE.

Speaker 5 (35:59):
So I don't think to get fan.

Speaker 4 (36:02):
I think you know you said, Brian, the death is
certainly a factor. I mean, w be you know they'll
usually have one the seas wrestler per class and trying
to think that, I mean in recent years that they've
tried to shy away from that and they start have.

Speaker 7 (36:19):
They have this year and gorgeous George, but you know
those guys will both are from another era. You know,
Stue Heart was seventy five when he died. Gorgeous George
was sadly young, but he was definitely from another era, right.

Speaker 2 (36:32):
Exactly exactly, so you know, And also but Sean, you know.

Speaker 4 (36:38):
They could I mean they Broughn in Coco Beware, and
you know there's also other you know, wrestlers who you
would say, well, okay there and was exactly as a
criteria for them being inducted, you know. And so if
there's something where you know, they continue this this sort
of I mean they just released the season one in
season two of Raw DVD set and and Luna was

(36:59):
a part of that era. So I mean, often tough
it comes down to can we produce a DVD and
market a DVD.

Speaker 2 (37:07):
Around this Hall of Fame induction.

Speaker 4 (37:09):
So if they do another one of those sort of
early Raw years themed products or DVDs, and perhaps they
induct her down the road, and I don't know if
it's this year, next year, you know, five years from now,
it really depends. But like I said, Brian, the biggest
factor probably is that she died before the age of
fifty and that doesn't look good for WWE, especially with

(37:34):
how many early wrestling deaths there are now, and it
continues to add.

Speaker 2 (37:38):
Up and they're continued. I mean, we're on a pace now.

Speaker 4 (37:40):
Where's I mean Lance Cade was a couple of weeks ago,
Omaga was a little bit before that. I mean, Andrew
Martin's an another big name. So yeah, I think, like
you said, Brian, they're gonna shy away from that.

Speaker 2 (37:53):
And and perhaps and perhaps you know.

Speaker 4 (37:56):
Like not Inductor because of that, So that is, but
that might be the Germany factor.

Speaker 2 (38:02):
Steve, any other question or follow up?

Speaker 9 (38:05):
Yeah, one quick, you know from TNA last night, well too. Actually,
I really enjoyed the Generation Means machine Gun match.

Speaker 5 (38:13):
I thought that was really entertaining and and it wasn't.

Speaker 9 (38:17):
Just all high spots where they they put into Matt wrestling,
but the looking plain I had, and it's a small
one when Steing choked out Rick Flair and he was
selling the choke and then ten minutes later he was
on camera with.

Speaker 4 (38:29):
This guy smiling and backing him up and not.

Speaker 8 (38:32):
Been telling the choke.

Speaker 5 (38:34):
I just that kind of irked me a little bit.

Speaker 2 (38:37):
Yeah, it's one for over oversight.

Speaker 4 (38:39):
Yeah, exactly, and that followed Steing be laid out of
the chair shot from Hogan.

Speaker 2 (38:44):
You know. So so it's like Hogan knocks out Staying and.

Speaker 4 (38:47):
Then Sting looks fine backstage choking out Flair, and then
exactly he said, Steve, there's Flair back on TV with.

Speaker 2 (38:55):
With Fortune looking fine.

Speaker 4 (38:57):
You know, It's just it's maddening they don't think about
these things, or in post production they don't say, you
know what, we need to cut this, We need to
cut this out. You know, that doesn't flow, it doesn't
make sense. We can say the choke out from Sting.

Speaker 2 (39:12):
Unflair next week or the week after.

Speaker 4 (39:14):
Or whatever whatever it makes sense. So yeah, yeah, Brian,
I mean to add that to our discussion on Team Nag.

Speaker 2 (39:20):
Yeah, definitely.

Speaker 4 (39:23):
About the Jim m Guns match, Brian, what did you
think about that match and what do you think about
what they're doing with the Murdacy machine guns after that
five match series with Beer Money.

Speaker 7 (39:36):
Well, you know, I like the match. I thought it
was a really good match. In the limited time that
they had. They just don't have enough time to let
them flow and really build.

Speaker 5 (39:44):
Up a match.

Speaker 7 (39:44):
They can't see if Generation Men can work up fifteen
to twenty minutes take team match.

Speaker 5 (39:49):
But you know that between those two teams, you.

Speaker 7 (39:52):
Could have a Rock and Roll Express midday Express type
of feud where both teams are really good and they
can have entertaining matches and really carry matches, especially like
on a house show tour, and you could build around
that type of entertainment if that was your direction. You know,
you look at what they did in the after show
or the reaction part with Generation Me. That was a

(40:13):
good follow up to help you learn about those characters
a little bit. Now, if they could start building on
that and giving these guys some wins and you could
get behind them and slowly, week by week, you could
get behind this team. You know, that's how you could
create stars.

Speaker 5 (40:28):
In fact, you.

Speaker 7 (40:29):
Talk about MotorCity Machine Guns, here's an example of TNA
actually got somebody that the crowd cares about.

Speaker 5 (40:36):
They've got a team.

Speaker 7 (40:36):
Here that's pretty hot right now, they're the world champion.
Now can they build on them and focus on them
because they've they've got a shot here to build up
something that is homegrown talent, could be a real star
type team to carry TNA and have actually something that
TNA could bring about that they've developed a character, they've
developed some stars and market around the company around them.

(41:00):
They dropped the ball this year with Jay Lethal. They
had another I thought a hot feud with Angle or
season with Jay Lethal and Rick Flair, and they've.

Speaker 5 (41:10):
Dropped the ball, you know.

Speaker 7 (41:11):
Since that Angle's been dropped and moved on, Lethal has
done a couple of TV jobs and has cooled off
completely again saying thing they did last year when Lethal
beat Kurt Angle, he beat Angle, and they never followed
up with it, and so the match meant nothing, you know,
and you speak of Kurt Angle. They had a good
angle going with Kurt. He was going to beat all

(41:33):
these guys in succession to get to the world title match,
and now they've dropped it completely in favor of this
tag or this world title tournament. So they've they've had
some good angles, they've had some good characters. When they've
got something going, they seem to undercut themselves and drop
everything completely because it seems like they don't want anybody
to get over the next guy. And unfortunately, this is

(41:55):
a business of stars, and you have to create stars,
and you have to put people over somebody else to
make that star otherwise your your company is going nowhere.

Speaker 4 (42:04):
Yeah, it's a pattern of elevated guy put him on
the back burner. Elevated guy put him on the back burner.
You know, it's it's insanity because they do it over
and over again, and they wonder why guys don't get over.

Speaker 2 (42:18):
Well, it's because you.

Speaker 4 (42:19):
Push them for a couple of months, maybe even.

Speaker 2 (42:21):
A couple of weeks, and then they.

Speaker 4 (42:23):
Disappear or they shift into an angle that means nothing.
And and I mean I remember, like the Guns in
uh Generation to Me match last night. It was, you know,
a good six minute TV match, good two plus star match,
but the way it was presented it didn't matter, because
it was it was presented as a filler or a

(42:46):
break from the other stuff you know in Fortune and
Eve two point zero and Hogan and Jarrett and Sing
and Dixie and Serge. It was it was presented as
a break from those bigger angles. And that's not the
way to present the Guns fresh off a biggery, good
program with beer money that drew quarter hour ratings. It drew.

(43:10):
Every single one of those matches drew either top not
even I mean I have to go back and look
at each week but at least in the top three
of each of the eight quarter hours of each week
of each week's Impact, they were in the highest rated segments.
So it's you know, it's a thing where how it's
presented to me, that match didn't really mean.

Speaker 2 (43:33):
Much because it wasn't presented as important.

Speaker 4 (43:35):
There wasn't follow up until Reaction when they did that
big profile on Generation Me. And that was fine, But
when half of your audience is watching Reaction compared to Impact,
you know, half of the audience isn't gonna see that story.
They're not gonna know any more about Generation Me. That
match isn't gonna mean as much as it could have meant.

(43:56):
And you're kind of back to square one, which is
that Generation Me. Uh, you know, who knows where they're
gonna be at this after this this match, I'm not
sure what they're doing on next week's TV. I don't
even know if they're on next week's TV show. The
lack of follow through, the lack of emphasis after a
major program, like you said, Ryan Jay lethil Rick Flair
right after that, you know, Jay Cut is losing on

(44:17):
TV right after the guns and Beer Money. What you know,
beer Money's you know, danceing around with FBI.

Speaker 2 (44:24):
Why is FBI on my TV in twenty ten? Where
are they contributing?

Speaker 4 (44:28):
I don't see any value in them on my TV.
So beer money goes to program with them, the guns
go to a program that's presented as a stiller. The
lack of follow through, the lack of having another angle
to follow a big angle. It costs w CW and
it's costume TNA and it's the exact same pattern repeated himself.

Speaker 7 (44:48):
After what program Rick Flair, you know put Jay Lethal over?
They should have came back and right now Jay Lethal
should be in a position where he is challenging for
the world title. You know, he beat the former world
champion latist wrestler ever and Rick Flair, he should be
playing that up and they should have him in a
position where he is chasing that championship belt. Whoever has
a you know, is it aj Styles around Van dam

(45:10):
or whoever. He should be the number one contender based
off of that vieud And he's right back to the
same level he was before.

Speaker 5 (45:16):
He's he's losing.

Speaker 7 (45:17):
In three or four minute matches like you mentioned, and
his role in the company has not improved whatsoever. And
it's a huge, huge mistake the TNA has made.

Speaker 5 (45:27):
Here, you know, and drop the ball in just another
example of that.

Speaker 2 (45:32):
We're down the last twenty minutes of the live cast today.

Speaker 4 (45:35):
This is PW torchs assistant editor James Caldwell joined by
the Torch Nostalgia colnist Brian Hoops. They want to take
your phone calls in the last twenty minutes or so.
Number to call is six four six seven to one
nine eight two eight. You can be a second in
line right now. We have one of the person on hold,
which we'll be getting to next. So if you want
to jump on, now is the time to get on

(45:57):
the phone lines and we'll get to your call pretty soon.

Speaker 1 (45:59):
So we're about to go to a commercial break. Why
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(46:21):
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Speaker 4 (46:34):
Let's go ahead and go to the nine to one
two area code nine one two.

Speaker 2 (46:37):
Welcome to the show. Please stay travaning where you're from?

Speaker 8 (46:41):
Marcus?

Speaker 2 (46:43):
Hey, Marcus? What are you have first? Today? Can to
hear from me? Yes?

Speaker 8 (46:47):
It's to go to Independent Promotion shown GCW in Phoenix City, Alabama.

Speaker 11 (46:55):
Okay, we vote and the day is about. It was
a name that was on the card. He had the
weighted same and uh what I was told he.

Speaker 8 (47:08):
Used to wrestle back in the Sydney in the eighties
and I was just one. And did you have any
other information on who he was?

Speaker 4 (47:15):
What was the name of the wrestler? I didn't catch
the name?

Speaker 2 (47:19):
Ed?

Speaker 5 (47:20):
Oh Ted Allen?

Speaker 2 (47:21):
Sure?

Speaker 5 (47:22):
Yeah, yeah, yep, that was Ted Allen? Who it wasn't
his real name? His name?

Speaker 7 (47:29):
Can't think of a Ted something, but Ted Allen wasn't
his real name. He wrestled, uh you know, mostly as
a mid card type level wrestler and always in the
regional promotions down in Georgia, Alabama, uh in the Territory days.
He was only fifty three and died of what appears
to be natural cars.

Speaker 5 (47:47):
Causes or a heart attack.

Speaker 7 (47:48):
He started off wrestling as actually one of the Nightmares
under a mask, and he was with Ken Wayne at
the time, and he was eventually replaced and he went
back to work as himself as Ken Allen. And you know,
he never made really main event level status, but he
was still working today, still active in the business and

(48:09):
mentoring younger guys and wrestling as a tag team. In fact,
he mentored Ray Traylor, who became the Big boss Man.
He got Ellen arn Anderson, Marty Lundy into the business
and a couple other guys he he's trained for for wrestling.
Scottie Riggs I think, is another guy that he trained
in wrestling, and he took a lot of pride in
that that. You know, even though he wasn't a main

(48:30):
event level wrestler, he was able to help get some
guys into the business, get him a break, show him
how to wrestle and do the circuit, and then those
guys ended up going on to national prominence because he
you know, he was never able to really gain that
level of stardom or fame in his own career. But
you know, he was highly thought of in the business,

(48:51):
and you know a lot of people had a lot
of really good things to say about him. He was
He was actually friends with Scott Tield, who was a
wrestling author, and they had been then since you know,
starting a pent Pal wrestling club group back and when
they were both teenagers.

Speaker 4 (49:08):
Yeah, good insight on that, Brian Marcus, that kind of
answer your question. Did you have any follow up on Allen?

Speaker 5 (49:15):
Yes, one more quick bottle up. I just said a
little question.

Speaker 8 (49:19):
When WWE superstar gets demoted back to developmental, like say,
I guess Margie this year.

Speaker 11 (49:27):
Their pay goes down, they all look me to keep
the same head.

Speaker 4 (49:31):
Well, there's the uh, I believe they still have the
downside guarantee. You know, obviously they're not gonna make the
lucrative house shows or TV tapings or pay per views.

Speaker 2 (49:40):
Uh, but I believe.

Speaker 4 (49:41):
They still have the downside guarantee even if they're sitting
down at FCW. Brian, Is that is that kind of
your understanding.

Speaker 2 (49:47):
Of it as well?

Speaker 7 (49:48):
Yeah, that's why understanding they've got that downside guarantee contract
that they're under for a while until they have to
either get cut and go on to a developmental contract.
But they're they're paid definitely gonna go down because they
don't do the WW health shows anymore, or they're lucky
enough to be on a pay per view or or
have any merchandise, So they're definitely taking a pay cut
by being set down.

Speaker 4 (50:11):
Yeah, and it's you know, that's kind of why it's
structured with you know, you get paid for what you
appear on. I mean, she had out a pay per
view match this yearlier this year he was and then
he was basically put on Superstars, and then he disappeared
and he kind of reappeared in an FCW doing developmentals.
So he'll still get paid you on the downside guarantee
in the w W contract.

Speaker 2 (50:31):
But yeah, he's not going to be getting those lucrative,
those liqurative payoffs.

Speaker 4 (50:35):
He's just going to be getting to get in the
downside in FCW.

Speaker 2 (50:38):
I don't even I.

Speaker 4 (50:39):
Haven't even heard a reason why he was since FCW,
I thought he was. I mean, I thought he was
progressing pretty well with that heel character and needed some
some polish, but Brian, I thought he was doing okay.
I thought he was doing fine, kind of splitting away
from crime time and trying to do his own thing.
I don't know if they just didn't give him enough
time or if it was something else real. Have you

(51:00):
heard anything else Brian on on why he was sitting
down at SCW.

Speaker 7 (51:05):
You know, I don't know exactly the reason why. I
assume they didn't have much for him in that current
character and they were sending him down to work on
something or develop a more different type character. A lot
of times they'll just you know, cut a guy loose
and if they don't have any interest in bringing him back.
But apparently they must think enough of him that they're
gonna have him work on a few things in developmental

(51:26):
that they're going to bring him back at some point,
because you haven't been futured to different at this point yet.

Speaker 4 (51:32):
Marcus, any other question to follow? No, right, Yeah, we
appreciate the call. A great weekend, and thanks for joining
us on the live cast. Brian, I wanted to to
bring up some quote from Kurt Angle. Today, Angele had
an interview with sorry Kevin Eck and The Baltimore Sun

(51:55):
talked more about you know, started dropping the Anthony's considerate
retirement and pushing it down to you know, perhaps part
time evaluating his options at the end of his his
TNA contract, which he said is about one more year
left on it. What do you make of where Kurt
Angle is in his career with tn A and you know,

(52:16):
when he says he's going to evaluate his options.

Speaker 2 (52:18):
Do you think that's more.

Speaker 4 (52:19):
Of going full time into movies and kind of doing
that the Angle Foodies Club and his food line and
the various products that he has health and nutrition wise,
or does he possibly end up in wee for a
final run with that company.

Speaker 2 (52:34):
Before it calls a career. What's kind of your impression
where Angle is right now?

Speaker 7 (52:39):
You never can believe anything that Kurt Angle says.

Speaker 5 (52:41):
I don't think, you know. I guess he talked about them,
So that's a good.

Speaker 2 (52:46):
Way to start off any Angle discussion.

Speaker 7 (52:48):
Yeah, he had talked about going into MMA for so
long and close to merge to signing the contract. You
just can't believe anything, you know, really that he's talked about.
I think at his stage in was career, he knows
where he's at with TNA. He's done most of the
matches with most of the performers there. There may be
a few matches he hasn't done yet with some of

(53:09):
these guys that they've brought in recently that he can
still work with. But you know, he's worked with just
about everybody. He's not been able to take TNA to
the next level, or no one's going to be able
to just because of the way they're structured in their book.
His best career move at this point is to, you know,
have those other career paths or ideas wrestling transition into

(53:31):
movies if he's able to, maybe his own food line
if he's able to, so he has some of those
other outside interests. But his best bet is to go
back to WWE if they'll take him on, you know,
like a two year run where he can work a
little bit less of a house to show schedule, if
he can get something worked in so that he doesn't
have to go back on the road full time, have

(53:52):
those injuries that he's kind of prone to have because
of his.

Speaker 5 (53:56):
Age and his body's just beat up.

Speaker 7 (53:58):
He doesn't you know, can make sure that he's still
physically able to work and then have the big runs
on the WrestleMania some of the pay per VW events
and have a last couple of years here that he
can kind of ride off in the sunset like a
Sean Michael Paz. He had a little bit of a
limited schedule, did the big events and just retired from wrestling.
And because Kurd Angle is definitely a Hall of Fame performer,

(54:22):
definitely they to do DVDs on him and boat parties
can make money on the deal. And I think that's
the direction they're eventually going to tell.

Speaker 4 (54:28):
You, Yeah, well, well me like you said, Brian, he
was brought into elevate T and A and like everyone
else who's come through those doors, there's a short term interest.
The people who see the product, they see it's crap.

Speaker 2 (54:44):
It's it's a product that is crap.

Speaker 4 (54:47):
They tune out because they don't want to sit through
that to watch you know, the big name Kurt Angles, Sting, Booker,
T Hogan, dish Off, Jeff Harney, RVD.

Speaker 2 (54:57):
There's that pop Christian Yeah, good, great example.

Speaker 4 (55:00):
He was the first one that one to make that
big crossover. Uh yeah, I mean it was Christian, then
it was Stinging, then it was Booker, then it was Angle.
Going back to kind of five, well Lado four or five,
and it kind of made that crossover from.

Speaker 2 (55:15):
You can be successful in TNA.

Speaker 4 (55:17):
Coming from w It's a short term pop.

Speaker 2 (55:20):
And then it goes back down to the same level
it is.

Speaker 4 (55:23):
Then there's that stair step increase it short term pop,
and then it goes back to where it was.

Speaker 2 (55:28):
It's just the way TNA is set up. You know.

Speaker 4 (55:30):
Angle Engle came in and he had that big match
with Samoa Joe, and like we talked about this on
this live cast today, T and A did not follow up.
They even created the template I wrote about this. In
no way they created the template on how to promote
effectively promote a big time wrestling match with two big

(55:51):
time starts and make money. And yet they just went
completely the opposite direction right after they created their own
template because it did not fit with their creative plans. So,
I mean, Angles, well, who is Angle have left? He
has Jeff Hardy, which they're gonna give away. No, no,
if they give away I mean, but again, they're not
really promoting that matchup. They're promoting a tournament at No Surrender.

(56:14):
So Angle Jeff party is part of a series of
matchups at No Surrender but there's no specific focus.

Speaker 2 (56:21):
Like we talked about in this show.

Speaker 4 (56:23):
So Angle and Hardy is kind of lost in the
shuffle of matchups on that pay per view and then
Angle well, you know, let's just let's just say that
Angle wins that tournament, because you know, if he loses,
he has to retire, and then that's just a waste
of a retirement.

Speaker 2 (56:37):
Angle.

Speaker 4 (56:38):
So he wins the tournament and becomes a champ, and
then they set up the match with him in RVD.
So basically Angle has two matches left Jeff Party and RVD,
and then after that it feels like a repeat stuff.
So yeah, if he goes to WV, they could get
a lot of stretch out of him, especially a legitimate
retirement tour or not every match if there's a retirement

(57:02):
match where not every match is just sort of oh well,
if he loses, well he's done.

Speaker 2 (57:06):
It's no big deal. It's not a big deal. It's
just kurd Angle, you know. That's the way he comes across.

Speaker 4 (57:10):
He has these if he loses, he retires matchups on Impact.
So I mean, I don't know if he wants to
go to w B. I don't know if that's the
right place for him. But if he's able to get
a short term schedule, do this sewn Michael's schedule.

Speaker 2 (57:24):
And he kind of talked about this in an interview
with Kevin Eck.

Speaker 4 (57:27):
He wants to do movies kind of on his own.

Speaker 2 (57:31):
He's really into the movie scene right now.

Speaker 4 (57:33):
And it's very obvious why he gets breaks. Let's say
he wasn't doing wrestling, he was just doing movies. He
would get breaks, he would get time off. You have
a limited schedule, he would still get paid. Wow, you
have off time and he's a wrestler, you know, so
it's quite obvious why he would do that. So, Brian,

(57:55):
if you had to put a percentage on whether he
ends up in WWE for a short server run just
kind of closing off the career, what are the chances
are that he'll end up in WWE, Well, I.

Speaker 7 (58:08):
Think the chances are better than not that he would
go at some point, you know, because like I said,
it gets down the money and both sites can make
money off of it. McMahon can make money off the
Kurt Angle DVDs and some merchandise and increase and buy
rates and interest when Angle comes and does some runs
with some guys he hasn't done for a long time,
or even some fresh guys. So I think definitely there's

(58:31):
a chance for McMahon to make money off this Kurt angle.
It's his best career move is to retire, go back
to WW and retire there. He may not have a
run with the championship belt, but he would certainly have
a couple of WrestleMania matches, he'd have the DVD residual income,
and there's just, you know, a lot of advantgels to
being in WW that he would not have being in

(58:51):
TNA and finishing his career there. So I certainly think
it's more probable than not he'll be and then his
career in WW whenever that time comes.

Speaker 12 (59:05):
Be longing for some nostalgia, or maybe you want to
learn some wrestling history, don't miss the nineties Past Cast.
Every Friday on the PW Torch Daily Cast feed, Alex
and Patrick will transport you thirty years into the past
by taking you through the Torch issue from that very week.
Follow news from the WWF and WCW and all the

(59:25):
happenings from across the wrestling industry in real time as
The Torch reported it thirty years ago. That's the nineties
past cast every Friday on the PW Torch Daily Cast feed.

Speaker 4 (59:45):
Yeah, as long as it's not a full time schedule.
I dread the idea of Angle in a full time
schedule in WW again, that's a disaster waiting to happen. First,
for a lot of wrestlers, it's a disaster waiting to
happen because full time schedule and the pressure puts on
a guy.

Speaker 5 (01:00:03):
You got Michael's schedule, like you said.

Speaker 4 (01:00:06):
Yeah, exactly. Otherwise no, I would say, no, don't do that.
I mean, it was Mickey James an interview. I haven't
covered this yet, but I was just kind of browsing
an interview that she did promoting her music album, and
she said, you know, some of this is an exaggeration,
but some of this is actuality. That she was home
twenty days last year.

Speaker 2 (01:00:27):
I believe she said last year.

Speaker 4 (01:00:28):
Maybe it was O eight, but she was home, actually
at home for twenty days. And if you kind of
follow Kobe Kingston and his tweets on Twitter, I think
one tweet recent was that he hadn't been home in
three weeks. You know, he basically lived out a suitcase
for three weeks. The riggers of the schedule plus kurd

(01:00:48):
Angle is not a good thing, but you know they
could make some money off off of sort of a
retirement deal. Do the kurd Angle DVD, do the Hall
of Fame induction, do the last big WrestleMania match whenever
that is, when it's wrestling twenty eight, depending on when
he when when it is. It's kind of speculation, but
if you leave TNA, you know they get some money

(01:01:09):
for the company and for him, uh.

Speaker 2 (01:01:13):
An unofficial pension.

Speaker 4 (01:01:15):
Almost as specific as that is, the guy has to
wrestle and make a DVD, you know, have a DVD
on his career to get a pension, an unofficial pension
from his wrestling career.

Speaker 2 (01:01:27):
It's just sad in of itself, but.

Speaker 4 (01:01:30):
You know that that might be where where it comes
down to kind of going to that w platform and
getting that one last final run and that one last
big paycheck from wrestle Mania in the Hall of Fame
and the DVD. Like the word Claire before a player
came back.

Speaker 2 (01:01:43):
So yeah, good right.

Speaker 7 (01:01:48):
It's gonna say, is we're getting the last five minutes
of the program here. I wanted to mention a plug
for our nostalgia show nostalgia podcasts for people who are
not VID members.

Speaker 2 (01:01:57):
Of the Torch.

Speaker 7 (01:01:58):
Next week I will be putting on the VIP section
of the website a special interview I did was the
great legendary Danny Hodge, all the greatest amateur wrestler of
all time, and I talked for over an hour about
his career and wrestling and got his thoughts and who
his toughest opponents were, and he just got to hear
his voice when we start talking about MMA and how

(01:02:20):
much he wishes he could have done it in his day,
and you know, he talked about this really fascinating when
he started talking about how he wanted guys to shoot
on him so he could see. It was just a pleasure,
he said, when the guy shot on him, and then
it was just a fascinating conversation with Danny's And even
at seventy eight years old, he's still still would like
to try it.

Speaker 4 (01:02:39):
I think, yeah, and I thought he would still be
okay at it, you know, Oh yeah, that would see
that'd be quite the attractions.

Speaker 13 (01:02:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:02:49):
So that was available for towards VIP members. Next week,
Brian will be posting that his weekly nostalgia podcast. He
usually does an interview about about once a month in
Sam Brian and then also the weekly podcast of George
Shire going over nostalgia topics or Minnesota rustling history.

Speaker 2 (01:03:07):
That that is.

Speaker 4 (01:03:08):
Available for towards v IP members every week. You're not
a sports v i P member and get all that
good information at PW towrs dot com slash go VIP. Uh,
let's go to another caller. Let's go to the nine
seven three area code. Nine seven three.

Speaker 2 (01:03:24):
Welcome to the show. Please take your name of where
you're from.

Speaker 14 (01:03:28):
Hey, guys, how you doing?

Speaker 2 (01:03:28):
This is a day from New Jersey?

Speaker 14 (01:03:30):
Hey Dave, Hey, well, real quick, I'm a longtime listener.

Speaker 2 (01:03:36):
I love the show.

Speaker 15 (01:03:37):
I love you know, the dynamic, the dynamic between all
the different hosts and everything.

Speaker 2 (01:03:41):
First time caller, Uh, real quick, I.

Speaker 14 (01:03:44):
Just wanted to get your guys' opinion on Christian status.
I mean, he's you know, he left for a while
with KNA and came back. You could say he's been
on punishment and ECW and now they moved him up
to SmackDown.

Speaker 2 (01:03:58):
But I mean you think he'll ever really get a
main event push at all? Oh?

Speaker 15 (01:04:04):
I mean I mean because to me, I don't really
see a big difference between guys like him, Edge, Jericho,
even Jeff Hardy. Besides, you know, I guess you know
somewhere more more over than he is. But if had
he stayed in WWE, wouldn't he be considered the same
level as like Edge or Jericho ninety.

Speaker 4 (01:04:24):
I think that man doesn't see the X factor with him,
and other people do.

Speaker 2 (01:04:29):
I mean other.

Speaker 4 (01:04:30):
People see, especially when he was a heel. And it's
so funny because I was watching some old school w
clips from I think, oh, I guess it's that old school.
Oh five, that's probably that old school.

Speaker 2 (01:04:42):
But it was oh four oh five, and he was
having the.

Speaker 4 (01:04:44):
Program with Flair and he was hanging around with Tomco,
and he looked he had that in factor, you know,
he had that in that heel persona, the way he
carried himself when he presented himself, he looks like a star,
and he looks like someone that they weren't pushing.

Speaker 2 (01:04:58):
Now he kind of.

Speaker 4 (01:05:00):
He doesn't have it. It's factor in McMahon's eyes, and
as a babyface, I just I don't see. I don't
see main events star on him.

Speaker 2 (01:05:08):
If he turned heel. Yeah, I definitely could.

Speaker 4 (01:05:10):
I think he did some great work in the mid
two thousands as a heel Brian quick quick twenty five
seconds on Christian and will he ever achieve many event
status under W's watch?

Speaker 5 (01:05:22):
Yeah, thanks for calling Dave.

Speaker 2 (01:05:23):
Good question.

Speaker 7 (01:05:25):
I think he's got it in him. McMahon, you're right,
does not see it. And McMahon sees him as, you know,
almost like that fit Finley type character. Where put him
with the programs with the younger guys, show him how
to work, put him in the house shows and teach
him how to work. But he's not going to get
that main event run. And I think I think he
deserves us. I think he's got this factor, Dave.

Speaker 2 (01:05:46):
We appreciate the call him.

Speaker 4 (01:05:47):
Want to thank everyone for listening to the live cast today.
Tune in on Monday for another edition of a webcast.
All right, Brian, we're now in the VIP after show.

Speaker 2 (01:05:56):
A portion of the show as.

Speaker 4 (01:05:57):
A blog Talk Radio signed signed me off as I
was trying to sign off.

Speaker 2 (01:06:02):
Uh, thanks for that.

Speaker 5 (01:06:03):
I didn't know. I didn't know what happened to our
music there.

Speaker 4 (01:06:05):
Yeah, I was trying at the music and they signed
me out, So okay, thanks blog Talk I was gonna.

Speaker 7 (01:06:12):
Ask you, James, I was gonna ask you about the
new tag teams that debuted last night, Brutus, Magnus and
Desmond Wolf.

Speaker 5 (01:06:19):
What do you think of their bearing?

Speaker 16 (01:06:21):
You know, actually one of the highlight of the show
I thought was the footage of them to kind of
walking through the mall with Chelsea and Uh and Brutus
has the giant.

Speaker 2 (01:06:32):
Glasses on his face and and Uh I did and
British this his money. And I think that.

Speaker 4 (01:06:41):
The guy, the look he has, the sort of the
facial expressions, the beard, the mannerisms, he's very witty, very
witty on commentary when he was on commentary a couple
of months ago or weeks ago.

Speaker 2 (01:06:54):
I think there's something there.

Speaker 4 (01:06:55):
And then Desmond has been so underutilized since, I mean
ever since those series, the matches with Kurt Angel in
the N nine, and he's kind of been thrown around
in programs with Abyss and guys like that, not on
really doing much kind of bouncing around with Vic Flair
for a while.

Speaker 2 (01:07:15):
I think there's potential in there.

Speaker 4 (01:07:16):
I think that Brutus can be the personality and Desmond can.

Speaker 2 (01:07:20):
Be the worker in that group, and I think.

Speaker 4 (01:07:23):
They can have a pretty good match with machine guns
in the pay per view. The only concern is that
they're lost in the shuffle, you know, with so much
else going on in TNA, so many other established over forty,
over fifty.

Speaker 2 (01:07:38):
Or almost fifty names grabbing so much.

Speaker 4 (01:07:41):
Of that spotlight that it doesn't really matter.

Speaker 2 (01:07:44):
It doesn't really matter what they do because it's presented
as a filler but in a vacuum.

Speaker 4 (01:07:49):
I like the team, and I like the potential that
team has.

Speaker 2 (01:07:53):
What's your take on brutus in Desmond?

Speaker 5 (01:07:57):
I'm with you.

Speaker 7 (01:07:58):
I think these guys potentially could the money type of
a tag team, especially going against the machine guns, or
to get another baby faced team that they can work against.
I thought these guys were great, great Peary and you
know you talk about being lost.

Speaker 5 (01:08:11):
In the shuffle.

Speaker 7 (01:08:12):
Certainly Desmond Wolf was being pushed into the background. He
had no program nowhere to go with the glass ceiling
there with all the over forty guys in the EV
two angles, So it was good, I think to put
him into a tag team division and let him shine.
I was just astounded to hear that this tag team,
a brand new one I've never even heard of before,

(01:08:34):
got a take team title shot. I just thought, what
your titles must mean? Absolutely nothing if you're just gonna
give a title shot to a team that has never
wrestled together before and we'll just put together. I watched
the Reaction Show and I see the program with them
in the mall, and I thought that was good charisma.
But then we find out that they are as a
match on Explosion for a Number one contendership for the

(01:08:54):
tag team titles. And they were on and wrestled, and
you know what kind of a company has a national
wrestling program and they don't feature any angles that would
build up to the title match on their program. They'd
either run an internet angle on a website or they
do it on an Explosion program that nobody watches, and

(01:09:16):
nobody even gets to debut a new team to have
a number one contendership match. I mean, there's there's just
again another example of incompetent booking or or way to
get a take team over. And so I was pretty
astounded by the way they introduced that that team good
fit though good team.

Speaker 4 (01:09:34):
Yeah, And like you said, you have to watch the
Reaction Show to just understand how they got a tag
title shot.

Speaker 2 (01:09:42):
Right, it's just what you know, it's so bizarre.

Speaker 4 (01:09:47):
That they value their titles so little. And this is
the same with AJ styles. We had this exact discussion.
Was it a month ago when they when they changed
it from the global title the TV title, and we said, well,
I hope they know what they're doing with this, and
what is it? What does the AJA start doing? He's
in non title matches and he's in and then the

(01:10:10):
TV title has no emphasis, hasn't been defended, barely gets mentioned,
has no value. It's just it's absurd, unbelievable how little
value they put in the title. Then know the TNA
title chase or tournament, they didn't champions so desperately that
they're gonna wait two months.

Speaker 2 (01:10:32):
It's almost laughable.

Speaker 17 (01:10:33):
It did.

Speaker 4 (01:10:34):
And then, uh, what was the was there something that
the Beautiful people either on.

Speaker 2 (01:10:39):
I mean, the reaction and impactric just.

Speaker 4 (01:10:40):
Gonna blend together after a while in my mind. As
this the show continued to be introduced. But and then
there was something where they talked about, Uh, there was
the the reform. Beautiful people said they were going to
go out, they were going to go after the uh,
the TNA Knockouts tag titles and I said, oh, wait

(01:11:01):
a second, Yeah, they do have tag titles.

Speaker 2 (01:11:03):
Who are the champions? You know?

Speaker 4 (01:11:06):
I mean, who are the champions? I have no idea
is is it Amada?

Speaker 2 (01:11:11):
And uh uh? And in the Knockout?

Speaker 7 (01:11:16):
You know, yeah, I think it's Taylor or Taylor Wilde.
I think in Mamada, but I can't tell you for sure.

Speaker 4 (01:11:21):
Yeah, yeah, why do you have titles in this company?
You change Global to TV and Adrian never defends the title.
It's not even the imposits about this program. His program
is a timing dreamer and uh in Fortune against EV
two point zero, there's.

Speaker 2 (01:11:39):
No emphasis on the belt. And then you have the
TNA tag titles, the machine guns fresh off a great
series of Beer Money. And then and then this is
what also got.

Speaker 4 (01:11:49):
Me during during reaction is that Generation ME is kind
of talking up the machine guns and they say they're
talking about the series of Beer Money and they said
that was a great series of matches. And no reason
why this upset me because it was like the eighth
time on that show that the emphasis was not on
winning matches but on you know, raising the level of

(01:12:11):
t and a, well, we're in this together to raise
the level we're trying, we're trying to raise the bar,
we're trying to.

Speaker 2 (01:12:17):
Build up this company. You know, just at that nonsense verbiage.
And so when they sit.

Speaker 4 (01:12:22):
There and they say, oh, they had a great series
of matches the beer money, I don't care if they
had a good series of matches.

Speaker 2 (01:12:28):
Did they win the matches or do they lose the matches?
That should have been the emphasis.

Speaker 4 (01:12:33):
Otherwise, why are you even chasing the titles if.

Speaker 2 (01:12:35):
You're if you're a tag team, right, and it's it's
just so maddening. This company books style.

Speaker 7 (01:12:43):
This title has now become a pay per view title.
You're gonna have a TV title match against Tommy Dreamer
on the pay per view, and it has.

Speaker 5 (01:12:50):
To be I quit. It can't just be a defense
of the title. It always has to be some sort
of a gimmick match.

Speaker 7 (01:12:55):
And you're right, you know, we talked about this. If
they're gonna have a TV title, defend it on TV,
make it a TV title, don't blend it into the
pay per view because that should be saved for the
world title. You should be protecting your titles. And if
you want to see a world title match between Rob
Van Dam and Jay lethal or whoever the champion and
the challenge you are. You have to pay for that
on pay per view and you get the TV title

(01:13:18):
match for free on TV. That's what they should be doing,
and that's not what they're doing at all, because they
have no champion and they have the TV title depended
on pay per view only.

Speaker 2 (01:13:27):
Yeah, it's h.

Speaker 5 (01:13:34):
It's DNA, you know, Yeah, I know.

Speaker 8 (01:13:37):
Excuse me.

Speaker 4 (01:13:38):
They average time version and I kind of get in
a discussion with ever the lou just sum it up.
It's TNA.

Speaker 1 (01:13:50):
You don't have to wait for the weight Keller Pro
Wrestling post show to find out what I thought of
Monday Night Raw and SmackDown. Each week, you can check
out my reports that are updated live throughout Raw and
SmackDown at pwtorch dot com. My written report will tell
you what's happening in detail in case you missed the show,
and it will also analyze key segments and give my
random thoughts quips on what I'm watching as it airs.

(01:14:12):
So check it out every Monday night and Tuesday night
at pewtorch dot com. That also applies to wwepayperviews. I
cover those live at pw torch dot com. With a
detailed written report with star ratings, and of course you
can find other TV reports from other contributors to PW
Torch such as nxt ROH, Impact Wrestling, and more. Check
it out pw toorch dot com, your first stop for

(01:14:34):
TV and pay perview written reports.

Speaker 2 (01:14:47):
Oh my goodness, don't have us.

Speaker 4 (01:14:49):
We don't have TV ratings yet for Impact, but I'm
very curious to find out what the show did, because
it doesn't to functuate from week to week. They're also
up against more preseason football, and they're up against USA
Network program Mean which they had two season finales last night.

Speaker 2 (01:15:06):
Uh. USC Network did.

Speaker 4 (01:15:07):
That did uh six point three million viewers and six point.

Speaker 2 (01:15:11):
One million viewers.

Speaker 5 (01:15:13):
Uh?

Speaker 2 (01:15:13):
This was Burn Notice and Royal Pains.

Speaker 4 (01:15:16):
And usually if they have a pretty hot episode that's
heavily promoted on USA Network, usually that takes away from
from TNA. And it's also a Jersey shore and preseason football,
So I don't know what kind of rating they're gonna
get in and and draft still they'll surprise us and
do a pretty good rating, or perhaps it'll be as
expected and doing and blow at one point zero. But

(01:15:38):
we'll try to find that out tonight after the live cast, Brian,
let's talk a little about a little bit about Rick Flair,
and then we'll get into some nostalgia news and notes.
I kind of admit that we haven't really talked about SmackDown.
They have a relatively busy show tonight with the Undertaker
returning and a title match and a non title rematch

(01:15:59):
from somewhere, which that drives me crazy as well. Caine
and ray non title two weeks.

Speaker 2 (01:16:05):
At the Summer Slam. I just I just I so
disagree with that. But let's just.

Speaker 4 (01:16:12):
Talk about SmackDown and those those three big things.

Speaker 2 (01:16:15):
What kind of jumps out at you about tonight's show
before we see it?

Speaker 4 (01:16:19):
Undertaker Dolph against coprod Icy title and Caine Raymond serial
non title rematch from Summer Slam.

Speaker 5 (01:16:27):
I'm with you.

Speaker 7 (01:16:28):
I hate those non title rematches from Summer Slam. I
think it really sends a message to the pay per
view buyer that if you bought that match for you,
or if you bought the pay per view for that match,
why not just wait one or two weeks it'll be
on TV for free. It just I think it sends
a real poor message that you don't want to be
sending you know, you want to make your viewer weight

(01:16:50):
three to six months. You know, when that pay per
view comes out on DVD, then go ahead and start
showing it on free TV, and and mentioned that they
had a great match at the pay per view. You
need to buy the pay per view. You need to
get the DVD that's coming out this.

Speaker 5 (01:17:04):
Week to watch it.

Speaker 7 (01:17:06):
You know, that makes a little bit more sense, But
a week or two afterwards just makes no sense to me.
So I'm agreeing with you. I hate it when they
do that. I you know, I'm kind of enjoying the
Kofee and the Dolph angle. They've kind of kept furthering
this see kind of an old style booking type food.
You know, it looks like Michael Hayes has his hands
on this, because this is more of a nostalgia period
angle where you would do three matches and then you

(01:17:27):
do the blowoff.

Speaker 5 (01:17:28):
You know, you do maybe a count.

Speaker 7 (01:17:29):
Out victory or a DQ victory for the heel. He
keeps his title on this qualification win, so the baby
Face is real close to getting it, and then you
have the blowoff match, and I think that's where's states
where they're at there on about the third or fourth
time here that these guys would face each other, and
they've never had a real conclusive fination, so I think
there don't I don't mind this feud whatsoever, And I

(01:17:52):
think there's some upside with Dolph and I hope he
continues to hold the title. I haven't read any of
the spoilers yet. One other thing that jumps out at
me is their their new character, Del Reels.

Speaker 5 (01:18:03):
What's I can't remember what his name is.

Speaker 7 (01:18:05):
Yeah, I think you know they they if they're gonna
go all the way with him, I think that's great.
They gave him a good win over Ray last week.
He looked pretty decent in the ring. They're good enough anyway,
And I think the plan at this point is to
push him as a as a top level heeled and
then eventually turning baby face. And I don't see anything
wrong with with pushing this guy. I think he's got

(01:18:25):
some some talent and chrisma and could could do well
for the company.

Speaker 4 (01:18:30):
And you know, to me, the idea that I kind
of thought about this analogy when you're talking about Canaan Ray,
it would almost be like a studio put in a movie.
Let's hit the Expendables just because that's in the news
because they're doing pretty good numbers.

Speaker 2 (01:18:46):
So you have the expendables, and after two weeks in
the theater.

Speaker 4 (01:18:50):
You put it out on free TV and Spike TV
starts airing the Expendables lander it's come out in theaters.

Speaker 2 (01:18:59):
You know.

Speaker 4 (01:19:00):
That's what it's like when they take the Summer Slam
and WrestleMania main events and then shuffle them over to
the free TV show two weeks later, right, It makes
no sense from a business perspective. It reinforces the idea
to a viewer that you know what, I don't need
in order to pay review, I'm gonna see you on
free TV right afterward, probably especially on SmackDown, because they

(01:19:21):
do this all the time, and there's no added value
to Canaan Ray. You're taking away the title. It's not
the line. There isn't an added stipulation. There isn't an
an added value reason for that match to occur. It's
just a way to fill time on a show. Because
SmackDown and w w's writers aren't disciplined enough and don't

(01:19:42):
have enough stars, they can kind of shuffle into that
main event picture on TV every week and they'll left
with having to do this because of the booking, and
it's and they do this so often, and I just
disagree with that. So but yeah, Dolph, Dolphin, Kofe, I
agree with you.

Speaker 2 (01:19:58):
That's that's got some potential.

Speaker 4 (01:20:01):
Probably Knight Champions blowing that off. I'd like to see
them keep the ballots on coat. I'm sorry on Dolf
and give him a decent run.

Speaker 2 (01:20:08):
With the title.

Speaker 5 (01:20:09):
Prapp.

Speaker 4 (01:20:10):
Set up a few with Christian and have Christian and
Dolf have a decent program that would seem kind of fresh.
I don't think we've seen much of them interact with
each other, at least nothing I recall. Yeah, so interesting
interesting times on SmackDown. We'll kind of see how it
plays out in this week's show, which was tape last week,
and how they go forward tonight. Champions Rick Flair, I

(01:20:32):
wanted to talk about this interview.

Speaker 2 (01:20:34):
That he did with ESPN. Uh.

Speaker 4 (01:20:37):
This was with Robert Flores of ESPN dot com on
Sports Centers SportsCenter dot Com, ESPN bran a lot of
interesting quotes from Flair. You talked a lot about the
direction that's been a theme in TNA from people talking
about the promotion that they don't have a direction, they
don't have a clear vision. It was very obvious on

(01:20:57):
this week's impact. That's very that's that's a very relevant
point to make. I'll kind of read some of the
quotes that Flaire said, I'll kind of get your reaction
to it. He said, I tell everybody right now that
WV has never been more vulnerable with the top guys
retiring or injured.

Speaker 2 (01:21:14):
They're basically entrusting.

Speaker 4 (01:21:16):
In the company with a lot of young guys and
trying to find that one guy who's still trying to
find that one guy to shine and become the next thing.
Kind of mentioned Steve Austin the Rock Seawan Michaels an undertaker,
So I think he's thinking, we have an industry, are
short on star power right now our company, we just
need to get a direction and.

Speaker 2 (01:21:35):
Stick to it.

Speaker 4 (01:21:36):
Sometimes I think they just throw stuff against the wall
out of desperation. For the most part, I think the
direction is real good with a new regime in place
and new thoughts and ideas. I think on the end
of the year, I think will be in a much
more competitive position. It won't compete with WV for another
year and a half, but once again that requires an
effort on everybody's part, not just the performers, but the.

Speaker 2 (01:21:58):
People behind the scenes.

Speaker 4 (01:22:00):
Uh, Brian, when you hear those quotes, when you read
those quotes, where do you think Flair is in terms
of I've built this company for eight months now, almost
almost a full eight months. He's been around enough to
see what's going on. What do you make to where
Flair is in terms of his mentality being part of
t and a kind of based on his quotes.

Speaker 7 (01:22:22):
You know, I think Flair likes to be relevant and
he's he's saying a lot of these things so that
he could remain relevant. He wants to he wants to
be part of what's going on in TNA because he
loves the business for one, he needs the money for two.
And he can be part of the TNA process.

Speaker 5 (01:22:39):
Uh. And he can't be part of ww you know.

Speaker 7 (01:22:41):
Nick mahon has been pretty clear with that that, you know,
they it's time to move on and they're they're moving
past the Ric Flair era. He can he can still
go out be in front of the crowd, not do
a lot of wrestling, but talk and being from the
microphone and be on camera, and he loves that. And
he'll continue to do that. So he's going to say
the right things so that he can make contain that
spot in his company. He's not ready to give it

(01:23:02):
up and doesn't want to walk away. He's made that
very clear. One thing that jumps out is in not
only Rick Flair's interview, but Dixie Carter and every other
interview you've heard, is they talk about competing with WW.
They can't compete with WWE. There's no way they can compete.
There's no competition here. They don't have any advantages over

(01:23:23):
WW and it you know, I've lived through the time
where the us FL was going to compete with the
with the NFL and was going to be this alternative
league and and it doesn't happen. And they're right now
the WW is the NBA.

Speaker 5 (01:23:38):
TNA is not the A B A.

Speaker 6 (01:23:40):
You know.

Speaker 7 (01:23:41):
There there's there can only be room for one major
promotion in sports NFL, Major League Baseball, NBA, whatever you
want to look at. There's been other sports where they've
tried to overtake them and it doesn't happen. And TNA
is not even close. They're they're not even doing a
fraction of what WCW was doing as far as TV ratings.

(01:24:01):
Back in the worst days of ninety two ninety three
in WCW they were still doing one point nine and
two point one ratings and DNA is happy if they
do it one point too.

Speaker 5 (01:24:10):
So there's no competition.

Speaker 7 (01:24:12):
Here, and it just, you know, they really need to
just focus on delivering a decent product and being profitable
and developing stars, because that's the best that they can
hope for. They are not going to compete with ww
this year, next year, or any year in the future.

Speaker 4 (01:24:29):
They don't have the infrastructure, they don't have the platform,
they don't have the awareness. And if we're talked about that,
you know, the next part, one of the next parts
of his quotes was he said, another big issue with
me is awareness and recognition. And I wish, I wish
you would have heard that in his mind before he
said we're gonna compete with w TOV within the next
year and a half. Yes, you know, the awareness of recognition,

(01:24:52):
that's the biggest.

Speaker 2 (01:24:52):
Issue along with the product and the products. The product
is what it is.

Speaker 4 (01:24:57):
It's not something that you really want to promote because
it's not going to catch anyone and make them a
new viewer. Or a new fane and wrestling, unless they're
just really engrossed with seeing a lot of.

Speaker 2 (01:25:08):
Older stars do uncool things.

Speaker 4 (01:25:10):
But he said, another big issue with me is awareness
for recognition that follows in the lap of the network.
They have to spend more money to advertise this show.
You ever advertise the show is on. It's absurd that
people still think I'm with w B.

Speaker 2 (01:25:25):
It doesn't happen.

Speaker 4 (01:25:25):
Nearly as much now, but it's still confusing to people.
I'm in an airport every other day and they'll say, God,
I love your retirement.

Speaker 2 (01:25:32):
What are you doing now?

Speaker 4 (01:25:34):
And then going on I'm still here Spike TV nine
o'clock eastern Thursday nights.

Speaker 2 (01:25:40):
I mean, if he hurt himself, if he heard.

Speaker 4 (01:25:43):
What he said, which is that the awareness and the
recognition is a big issue, then he would He never
would to conclude to that. TNA is a year and
a half away from competing with WV. It's not a reality,
especially with the product, and especially they don't make changes.
So it's kind of a fascinating window in Rick Flair

(01:26:03):
and where he is right now in TNA. Like you said, Brian,
he wants to be part of a national promotion he
wants to be relevant. He's tried a Ring of Honor
wasn't relevant enough for him, wasn't you know, he wasn't
able to hang out with with you know, the Hogans
and the Nashes and the stings.

Speaker 2 (01:26:22):
Of a former era. And I think he just likes
to hang out with those guys in that era. And
that's what TNA offers him.

Speaker 4 (01:26:30):
And it offers him a chance being a national TV
cutting promos that at least are at least are more
relevant to Ring of Honor, and he can be himself.
And even if it's you know, nobody's watching, at least
he's on national television cutting promos. You know, at least
he's hanging out with the guys backstage. So fascinating, fascinating

(01:26:53):
looking into did you have anything the other thoughts or
reaction to that, you.

Speaker 5 (01:26:57):
Know, not not really.

Speaker 7 (01:26:58):
I mean I think we covered and I mean it's
the same same thing.

Speaker 5 (01:27:03):
You know, they want to compete, they can't compete, and
Flavor Filer loves being us on the camera. He's going
to continue to do that.

Speaker 2 (01:27:12):
Yeah, yeah, uh.

Speaker 4 (01:27:14):
Let's go and wrap up with some nostalgia news and notes. Brian,
You've got your latest news and Notes and this week's
Torch Newsletter. You have a new podcast up with George
Shire this week, and of course, like you said, you
have the Danny Hodge interview next week. Anything anything, no
noteworthy that we need to kind of discuss or mention
to the listeners on Nostalgia News and Notes this week

(01:27:37):
other than what we haven't already covered today.

Speaker 7 (01:27:39):
Yeah, we mentioned the Danny Hodge's It's a fun interview
that'll be up next week. Doing a little traveling next
week early in the week, and kind of a little
wrestling reunion George. I always get together George Shire once year,
but this year we're also going to include to Oliver
Humper Dank and Nick Kirch and Ed Hellier and a
bunch of the guys from the Minneapolis area are going
to get together there this week, so that should be

(01:28:02):
a lot of fun. Next week's newsletter, we've talked about
the Beer, Money and Machine Guns Best of seven series.
The best of five series they have also take a
look back at the series of Police compared to Nikita
cole Off and Megan Tier from nineteen eighty six, So
that's a fun look back to see how that series
went down and actually that was an incredibly well booked angle.

(01:28:25):
Not as good in reingaction as beer money in machine guns,
but from an angle perspective, that was a tremendous, tremendous angle,
well booked, very.

Speaker 4 (01:28:35):
Good and definitely looking forward to Danie odge interview next week.
That should be a very fascinating interview that will be
promoted on the site and available for Torch VP members.
Brian something, you've got some travel, I've got I've got
some dinner to eat.

Speaker 2 (01:28:50):
So's all right, let's.

Speaker 5 (01:28:51):
Do it and wrap it up.

Speaker 4 (01:28:53):
Any final dolls before we signed off today.

Speaker 7 (01:28:55):
No, no good show as always, James, you have a
good weekend.

Speaker 2 (01:28:59):
All right?

Speaker 4 (01:29:00):
Than you to us on Brian, thanks again for joining
me for Torch nextalogic Columus.

Speaker 2 (01:29:04):
Brian Hoops.

Speaker 4 (01:29:05):
This is Torch Assistant editor James Caldwell starting off with
the weekend.

Speaker 18 (01:29:13):
Do you remember when Hulk Hogan shocked the world and
formed the New World Order or when stone cold Steve
Austin passed down on the Sharpshooter to break the hit
man heart. I'm Torch contributor Frank petty Any and I've
reviewed these shows and many more for my exclusive VIP
podcast Pro Wrestling than and now. Together with a rotating
chair of co hosts, we go back ten, twenty, even

(01:29:36):
thirty years, review pay per views from top to bottom,
talk about where the wrestlers were at the time, and
compare what took place then to what is taking place now.
You get exclusive access to these and other podcasts as
part of your PW Torch VIP membership, which is compatible
with the Apple Podcasts app. Visit pwtorch dot com slash

(01:29:56):
go vip for details and sign up.

Speaker 2 (01:29:58):
For Not Well thenw four Black Cats I am for
Wrestley Tortiletter editor and w FS dot com editor and
Wade Keller going today by Torch sing you're coming with

(01:30:19):
Bruce Mitchell. Bruce, how you doing today?

Speaker 5 (01:30:22):
I'm just on on Twitter about the nine hundreds, like
like this is the nine hundreds straight raw. I mean,
I don't believe them, but the nine hundred addition of raw.

Speaker 2 (01:30:31):
What I love is the what do you mean you
don't believe them.

Speaker 5 (01:30:35):
Because they've pulled this before. They said that something was
an anniversary. Turned out if you really counted.

Speaker 2 (01:30:40):
It up, it wasn't.

Speaker 5 (01:30:41):
But who's counting? So what else? What I liked though,
is when they had the ads last week and they
showed Match and they showed E R and they showed
I don't know what else, and then they said, they
said the great television shows in the past, and now
here's Raw, Like who told Raw that they were a
great televisonsher?

Speaker 2 (01:31:00):
And they'll sort, the longer you're around, the better you are.

Speaker 5 (01:31:04):
That's not true. Yeah, I'm living, Pruce, but here really are.

Speaker 2 (01:31:10):
Well, anyway, we're here to talk about the nine hundreds Raw.
James called Will put up an interesting poll at pw
torch dot com asking who is the number one star
of the nine hundred alleged nine hundred episodes of Raw
and Bruce, who is your Who's your obvious top pick? Yeah,

(01:31:31):
no doubt about it. I think that the debate then
comes in afterwards, and I want to talk about that
during the show. I want to throw out the phone
numbers first and encourage people to give us a call
here and talk about their favorite Raw memories, their worst
Raw memories, and especially who is number one? If not
Steve Boston, or if you agree Steve Boston's number one,
then give us a few other names, right, alast number two, three,

(01:31:52):
and four In terms of who you think are the
top stars of the whole era'd be helpful if you've
been watching Raw longer than two or three years. If
you're gonna chime in on this, unless you're a very
good student in the history. The number to call us
here at six four six seven nine A two eight
six four six nine two weight. Those listening live please join. James,
Collswell and me As will be putting up live reports

(01:32:12):
on ROB this week. I'm sure we'll have lots of
video clips. Bruce. Back to that, uh opening topic, who
who is number two the Rock, Shawn Michaels, Triple Ache, Undertaker,
Brett Hart, John Cena, Chris Jericho, vincemick Man, someone else
you know.

Speaker 5 (01:32:26):
Of First, I don't think people should be giving giving
moments that they didn't see. So I'm gonna say the
rule is you have to have seen up when it
happened to give that.

Speaker 2 (01:32:35):
We're not asking about what greatest moment you didn't see.
We're saying, have watched ROW for more than a couple
of years, have a feel for it. Obviously. Who are
the top stars of tell us? How long you've been watching? Yeah,
that's what we're talking about. That's what we're talking about,
all right, So, so who's number two? Could be difficult
los and and he's ahead of John Cena. I mean,

(01:32:56):
John Cena's been around for half the episodes, probably Rock
around for a couple of years. Johnsene has been that
would just say, I'd just say wrong, Ross would Rock
is the highs so far, And it's a tough choice,
but I think Johnson has kind of.

Speaker 5 (01:33:10):
Been in that B level of raw. You know, Johnson
has been the top star after the Glory Days, and
so I don't twitt him second. I still would put
a guy from the Ward Days. I just think that
the the two standouts, and there stands outs throughout the
history of wrestling, or or so Steve Austin Rock, so
that that would be my argument. I wouldn't like, you know,
I wouldn't like tear somebody at Paul or stood at

(01:33:31):
him or something and they said John seen, I'd get that.

Speaker 2 (01:33:33):
What did it take through that has been on someone with.

Speaker 5 (01:33:36):
I don't know if I'm hacking or coughing or sneeze
at the long time. Usually I don't do that on purpose.

Speaker 2 (01:33:42):
Yeah, all right, all right, Well, uh so is John
Cena number three or maybe Shawn Michaels from the fact
that he was around from the beginning and it is
and was around until recently as an active wrestler with
just a break during those well, you know, key boom
period years. I would have Seawn Michaels right there in
the mix with Scena, Rock and Austin battling it out
for of those top three spots.

Speaker 5 (01:34:02):
Uh, yeah, I would, But I'll go John perce.

Speaker 2 (01:34:05):
And and then Brett Harder Shawn Michaels ahead of one another.
Do you have do you have Seawn ahead bread and
bread ahead of Sean wherever they fall on?

Speaker 5 (01:34:11):
Shanah, Shawn, I had a bread, Shawn I had a broad.
I mean, Brett was gone for thirteen years. It was
kind of hard to take a big chunk like that out. Yeah,
but you know they were the Patriots at the same time.

Speaker 2 (01:34:22):
Yeah, fair enough. Good cut your thoughts on that. Why
don't we go right to the full lines, Bruce and
see what the callers have in store for us. The
number to reach us here on the live cast is
six four six seven nine two eight. That's six four
six seven nine two eight. Just a reminder, we are
now a droid app. It's free search pw torch in
the Android marketplace and download to your phone, to your

(01:34:43):
droid phone our pw torch app. Of course, for a
couple years now almost we have been an iPhone. You
can uh search iTunes for pw torch and download our
free iPhone And of course we're a website, and I
think all of you know that pw torch dot com
updating every day all day, twenty four to seven with
the breaking news, commentary and exclusive features. All right back

(01:35:04):
to the phone lines, Eric code nine to three to one.
Please state your name, it where you're from.

Speaker 5 (01:35:09):
Hey, it's being from Tennessee.

Speaker 2 (01:35:11):
Heyn good to hear from me.

Speaker 5 (01:35:12):
What's up?

Speaker 2 (01:35:13):
I guess I just.

Speaker 5 (01:35:14):
Wanted to chime in on the topic.

Speaker 7 (01:35:18):
As far as who I think would be the top
start the rock.

Speaker 19 (01:35:24):
He just had more memorable moments for me.

Speaker 2 (01:35:27):
So for you personally or do you think objectively speaking?
Because it's fair to go each way For me personally, okay,
fair enough, yeap.

Speaker 19 (01:35:35):
Overall I think it.

Speaker 5 (01:35:36):
Was awesome, but for me personally it was rock.

Speaker 2 (01:35:40):
Well. I was gonna say, what are your rock moments
that stand out?

Speaker 19 (01:35:42):
Oh god, there was too many, to too many to
list all of his promos that.

Speaker 2 (01:35:53):
Anytime we had the rock, all of them and we'll
come back to you in forty five minutes. Werena put
you out hole. I want you to get out of
old pad. All right, Rember, we got we got your
the g just rock. Do you have see blast number two?
Who's who's your number two?

Speaker 6 (01:36:06):
Uh?

Speaker 19 (01:36:07):
Number two is Austin. Yeah, but I think my favorite
moment was very early on in the retirement match.

Speaker 2 (01:36:15):
With mister Perfect and Rich Slayer.

Speaker 5 (01:36:18):
Yeah they had Ian back when those meant something and
uh but yeah that was it?

Speaker 2 (01:36:28):
Cool? All right, thanks again, appreciate your call. All right,
up to a flying star bruth. Let's keep the subject
rolling here or the see if the subject of pop
Top Around Superstars will continue with Erico nine o five,
Please say your name it where you're from?

Speaker 20 (01:36:44):
Hey guys, it's chef from Ontario.

Speaker 2 (01:36:46):
Hey, Jeff, good Dif for me, what's any of mine today?

Speaker 20 (01:36:49):
I'm trying to think of my favorite start.

Speaker 2 (01:36:52):
As how, I actually had a.

Speaker 20 (01:36:52):
Different topic and I wasn't sure if I.

Speaker 2 (01:36:56):
Okay, we won't Bruce won't spit on you if you
change one.

Speaker 20 (01:37:00):
I was gonna mention, is I enjoy reading your guys blogs?
As you're uh, you know, writing during the shows, and
that included Saturday's UFC pay per view and Wade, I
noticed you gave a four star rating to the uh
your Tony fight, and I was just wondering if you

(01:37:22):
can tell the listeners a little bit about why you
did that, And I wondered if that could be applied
to a wrestling match, because I mean, that fight only
went three minutes, and we often talk about how much
we dislike the short matches and wrestling. I just wondered
if you've ever given a four star rating into a
short match in wrestling, and or if you haven't, what

(01:37:44):
would need to happen.

Speaker 2 (01:37:45):
For you to do that. Sure, No, it's a totally
fair question. I don't I almost wish we didn't use
stars on MMA Torch because then, of course there's I mean,
it's obviously the obvious tendency to compare between them. Ruth,
you don't get to talk on the subject. I know
what you're feeling, But I the reason that I use
star ratings on mmators first of all, and let me
explain this, and you can agree or disagree, but it's
something where people can agree to disagree. I want a way,

(01:38:08):
in less than eight words or less than two sentences,
to tell people if they glance through the results and
they're thinking order on the replay or thinking of getting
DVD or whatever. I want to have a record of
how good was this show? And I think the easiest
way to go shorthand on anything, whether it's a movie
review or wrestling show, or even some of the greatest
basketball NBA championship series of all time or great world series.

(01:38:31):
You can say, oh, this on a one to ten
scale was a nine, or this on a one to
ten scale was a two? Is boring the Twins Braves ten?
You know, I mean that was an incredible world series.
Or if we can make star ratings, I just chose
to go star ratings are familiar and so to me
my criteria for it for shorthand to let somebody know
where does this fall in the higher ki If you
didn't see the match, or you just kind of want

(01:38:51):
to compare notes with somebody else, how good was this?
It's three factors, it's excitement level, it's technique displayed, you know,
not super sloppy, not not just a couple amateurs fighting
it out it competitively, but was there good technique and
was it historically significant? And I explained on my report
at mmators dot com that it's the historical significance that
totally dominates the Cotur Tony fight. I think that was

(01:39:13):
a moment in history, and I think you get some
points for that in an MMA atmosphere. I think also
technique was pretty impressive. It was a wrestler versus boxer situation,
a couple guys past their prime, although some might argue
Codetur is still in his prime, but you know, Tony's
not completely washed up by any means. So I thought
it was historically significant, and I thought the technique Cotur

(01:39:35):
used to to avoid getting punched, take him down, hold
him down, punch him, hold him down again, and choke
him out was really impressive. So from a time duration standpoint,
pro wrestling match is servativeferent purpose. In an ideally booked promotion,
i'd have some short matches like that were an upset
was scored in a big match, not in the final
match of a pay per view, but perhaps in the

(01:39:55):
TV main event or a semifinal match, just to keep
people on their toes, just to make people think this
can happen. But the point of a pro wrestling match
is to tell a dramatic story that it fits two
equal wrestlers. It's been long defined that two pro wrestlers
fight a long that if you're equal, If two pro
wrestlers are equal, the way the quote rules are structured,

(01:40:17):
the way the world is created for pro wrestlers, it
takes a while to get somebody's shoulders down for a recount.
That's just the way pro wrestling works. It's always worked,
and I think it makes a lot of sense. MMA
is a different As much as progressing stimulates MMA, one
of the benefits pro wrestling has is making sure there
aren't really short fights in main events. You actually quote
WWE argue this a year ago. You get what you

(01:40:38):
pay for WDWE. That's the argument. We can guarantee you
you're not going to see a thirty second or one
minute main event in MMA, because it's real. You're willing
to accept that, especially and it wasn't a freak show match,
but especially this novelty super fight mixed sport matchup, it
made sense that it could end that quickly, and that
was something you didn't know going in would necessarily happen.

(01:40:59):
I think most people it would but you didn't know it.
So I mean, Jamie Pennet gave it two stars. I
think I mean, and I put in my explanation immediately
as I when I put that blog up, I'm given
it four stars for this reason. But it's so out
of the realm, so out of the ordinary. I don't
blame somebody given it one or two stars. I mean,
I get that. It's it's totally subjective. It's just my
shorthand way of telling people, this fight was lived up

(01:41:19):
to my expectations because it's historically significant. Great technique didn't
need to last long to be really dramatic and tell
a cool story. So anyway, that's where I come from
on those.

Speaker 20 (01:41:29):
Yeah, no, that was great. I should have said that
the meaning I can disagree with you a bit it either.
I thought, well, it was deserving, and I think it's
funny because wrestling, like you said, does have the opportunity
to structure a mouch like they want to, and they
still have a hard time pulling off, you know, four
star mounches.

Speaker 2 (01:41:46):
Sometimes they didn't on smack they didn't they didn't actually
go to finish on smack Down on Friday. But I
thought there was a match on Friday where there were
some early that somebody went from really for really early
near falls. I should pull that up, and it didn't
end the mass. But sometimes you don't see that necessarily
in a in a pro wrestling match, where somebody just

(01:42:06):
goes and attacks quickly and goes for a quick pin.
It's not that it was kind of neat to change
it up on Friday's show and do that again. It
was only it was only good for a one count,
which I'm also glad they didn't just do a two
count because he always do a two count. I oh,
it might have been. I think it was JTG going
after c him punk really quickly and actually scored a
couple quick one counts and and you know, I mean,
does he expect to win the match? No, But I

(01:42:27):
like the story that's told there, which is an underdog
like JTG says, I'm going to go for it fast
and to take chances. It's what everybody wanted, you know,
it's it's what some people want wanted Kenny Florin to
do in the third round on Saturday.

Speaker 4 (01:42:38):
Go for it.

Speaker 2 (01:42:39):
You know you're you're now you're the underdog. You've lost
two out of the first three rounds. You bought the
first two rounds, the third round is everything. You're down
to a couple of minutes. You got to go for broke,
and he did. And something Jamie Pennick wrote about to
day on ma's Torch, when Floren was talking about how
he doesn't choke in big fights like Dana White said,
Jamie disagreed and said he choked in the sense that
the only way to win was to take some chances
in the last minute or two, and he chose not to. So,

(01:43:01):
going back to wrestling telling a story based on reality,
I like that JTG said, my best chance to beat
somebody at punk stature is to go out on hard
and fast and try to surprise him. So I kind
of like throwing that in and I thought that was
noteworthy on SmackDown.

Speaker 1 (01:43:16):
Anytime you're watching WWE Raw or SmackDown or AEW Dynamite
in particular, send us an email if you've got thoughts
on the show or a topic you want us to
address or a question for us. Wade Keller Podcast at
pwtorch dot com. Wadkeller Podcast at pewtorch dot com. If
there's anything else going on in pro wrestling that you
want us to address on our main podcast during our

(01:43:37):
mailbank segments. That same email applies Wade Keller podcast at
pwtorch dot com. We invite that interaction. Let us know
what you think of what we're saying, and let us
know what you want us to talk about and ask
us specific questions. Wade Keller Podcast at pw torch dot com.

Speaker 2 (01:43:54):
Okay, well, Jeff, let me ask you because I Bruce,
I know you hate star rings and I'm not even
gonna mma and I don't like star ratings.

Speaker 5 (01:44:02):
No no in MLA, alreadys and any anything that's anything
that's works, whether it's a whether it's an album, whether
it's a movie, whether it's a novel, whether it's a work,
pro wrestling match, I like star ratings.

Speaker 2 (01:44:13):
How would I how would you subscribe? How would you
describe your favorite ncuble A Final four your or the finals?
Uh game? Ever? How would what's.

Speaker 6 (01:44:23):
The three to one?

Speaker 5 (01:44:24):
You mean the one that happened this year that was
the all time classic game with the missfying as of
being the biggest upset in the right So I was dramatic.
One second, I'll say this, there's four in the history
of the NC double a tournament WHI shows back only
sixty years. There are four there are only four five
star finals. That would be nineteen ninety one, nineteen ninety two,

(01:44:45):
two thousand and one, and two thousand and two. All right,
but you just think it goes right to my point
about what this When you're having a competition, you can't
do it. And you also you also run into how
do you score? How do you score a quick knockout?
Because a quick not out is one of the most
exciting things, I argue is the most exciting thing in sports.

(01:45:05):
Concussions are not And so how do you score that?
I mean when you have a thirty second quick knockout
or a I mean that you blow There's a reason,
there's a reason why you come up with so much
controversy with this. It doesn't fit the model. It doesn't fit.

Speaker 21 (01:45:22):
There's not there's not one model you.

Speaker 5 (01:45:24):
Can base it around, particularly when you have a rooting interest.
When you have competition, you have rooting interest or you're
not really you know, for most people, there's now for
someone who's covering as a reporter, you put your rooting
either you don't have a rooting interest, or you put
it to the side. But it's just you know it,
it just doesn't There's too many ways to come out
of the fight satisfactory without saying this was the best

(01:45:46):
fight of this This was a five star fight. Listen,
the comparison is just too hard to match.

Speaker 2 (01:45:51):
And and and I respect opinion, Bruce, And I know
you don't respect mine, and that's fair enough, and that
frustrates me, but I respect It's just fine. You're just wrong.

Speaker 5 (01:45:58):
I mean, that's like that. Well, you you've worked very
high out of respect the work that you put into.

Speaker 2 (01:46:04):
Scaffolding it.

Speaker 5 (01:46:05):
But no, I think it's wrong.

Speaker 2 (01:46:08):
Yeah, okay, I mean no, no, And I know you
think it's wrong, and that's fine. But the fact that
you said that you in your mind there can if
if you sit here and say, the only way you
can you can rate a basketball game or a great
baseball game is if you don't have a rooting interest
in who wins or loses, then then that's fine. That's
your criteria. You're not if you're not able to be
objective about how good a competitive game is because you

(01:46:30):
had a rooting interest in it. Fair enough that but
that's your rule.

Speaker 5 (01:46:33):
Well, that's not really what I'm saying, I mean, that's
not really what I'm saying here. When I'm saying here,
there's too many ways you can say. You can generalize
about it. You can say that was a well played game.

Speaker 1 (01:46:42):
You can say that was a that was yeah, you're
you're you're saying that that was fought when I was.

Speaker 5 (01:46:47):
You can say that was a great fight. You can
you can make all kinds of subjective judgments about it.
That's fine, and you can come and you can come
within it. But to say one star, two star, three stars,
four stars, five stars, I mean, that's a way to
wrestling matches year for years, and I was pretty good
at it, I mean as far as being able to
hit on a hit in a consistent basis that people

(01:47:07):
could predict and that I could line myself up with
other people. And but there's not because there is sort
of a model for what a great a great wrestling
match of its time looks for, and what a mediocre
wrestling match. What a two star you're getting everything you should,
You're getting a professional effort, nothing more, nothing left. But
a two star match looks like there's not for MMA

(01:47:29):
fights because they're competitions and you got yeah, You can
say that that that fight was a stinker. You can
say that fight was pretty good, you can say that
fight was great, but stars, I think it is a pretty.

Speaker 2 (01:47:40):
Tough night, right, And my only disagreement with you, Bruce,
And if you want to have the final word, you can.
That's what my final word is. I think that you
don't saying that was a great fight. It's the type
of fight that you immediately text your friend or get
them on the phone and you start talking about it
afterwards because it was so exciting, not because your guy won.
That's not what I'm talking about. And if you don't
think you're gonna remove themselves from that to say whether

(01:48:01):
I mean, I want a lot of NFL games. I
don't care who wins. I don't care if the Eagles
beat the Cowboys or Colways beat the Eagles. But they
have a great competitive game that's well played back and
forth in drama. That's a lot more exciting that than
a than a giant Philly game that ends six to
three and had a lot and just was sloppily played
and they never got into the red zone. If you
say that, let me ask you, let me sign it.

Speaker 5 (01:48:19):
You know I didn't have a way, man, what about
in Minnesota? What about Minnesota Vikings game? But the Vikings
beat the.

Speaker 2 (01:48:29):
First We'll just say about that, Dru. The fact that
you interrupted me in this discussion because I was about
to make a point and I don't want to do it. Yees,
it does not it should well it's but it should, right,
it doesn't have to. But it's going to Jeff any
other comments? Can I just ask one more quick question? Yeah,
thanks for starting this, by the way, No.

Speaker 20 (01:48:45):
Go yeah, I know, look what I did as we
talked about the nillion hundred h de up tonight. One
thing I really missed is a good tanking wrestling in
the hand. I guess even women's wrestling. We stress and
made it in them back in the day. And I
just wondered what needs to be done to tend to
revitalize those divisions. I mean, the HERB Foundation just got.

Speaker 2 (01:49:08):
Those new belts, but I don't know who who's.

Speaker 20 (01:49:11):
Really in line to get a title shot. And I
was just wondering to you guys think as far as
the women's division goes, I look like they might have
a match team in to fight the belts. I don't
know if that'll hap it or not, And I just
wondered what your thoughts were on that, and it kind
of concerned things that maybe Lake Cool will beat Melina
just so they can have another belt again to you know,
Vicky Guerrero or something like that.

Speaker 2 (01:49:33):
All right, cool, Thanks you, Bruce. I think over the years,
when there's been a good women's division or a good
tag division, oftentimes it's just they fell into having a star,
and especially in WWE, where there was somebody who was
worth pushing and so they pushed them. And you know,
if the British Bulldogs happened to be available and they
decided to put Valentine beet Cakes together to carry Beatcake
and Heart Foundation for all of a suddeny started in

(01:49:54):
good tag matches. The fans got behind it, they sort
of featured it. But historically the McMahon's look at take
team wrestling as mid card and nothing more, unlike some
of the other territories and promotions over the years. And
also women's wrestling is the novelty. I mean it's become
It used to be a novelty in the sense of, hey,
look at women hit each other and wrestle. Now it's
the novelty in the sense that we're going to give

(01:50:15):
you some sex appeal on this wrestling show, so you
know you can have an excuse for watching it if
your friends want to ridicou you because you can talk
about how hot the women are, but they don't really
get all that serious into trying to create good matches
or promote them high up sowing. Jeff's question is, how
do you get a take team division hotter women's division
hot You put together some strong take teams and you
push them and you give them the kind of lip

(01:50:36):
service that TNA has been giving to the to their
take tam division and then deliver on it.

Speaker 5 (01:50:42):
Yeah, that's true, but don't expect WW to do that.
We're talking about the nine hundred episode of Raw. There
really isn't a tag team air or in the history
of Raw, or there's a woman's there, but we're not
going back to that, and that would be Table and China,
and you know, China who got hit by a spider
and couldn't go to didn't want to go to the
emergency room because she couldn't afford to do it anymore

(01:51:04):
because of the trouble, because the headaches that that Sable
and time in particular put the man's through, put the
management through. You're not gonna see that divas are going
to be at a certain level. They're going to be
those favored nations, the ones. All of them are gonna
be pretty equal to each other. And the minute that
they start calling, the minute that they start acting up,

(01:51:24):
they're gonna be out. As you can see you know
this week and Mickey James and Tiffany and that kind
of thing, they're gonna be out. You're not gonna have.
There's not gonna be ways, right, I mean, that's how
you do it is you get and if someone's good
enough to really elevate a tag team or there's there's
a couple of guys, they're gonna look at those guys
and go, let's make them singles. So you're gonna get
the kind of tag teams that we've got there, mid called,

(01:51:46):
you're gonna get the come and the divas are gonna
be less. Slow everything down, have a five minute diva
match and catch her breath before we go to the
next next thing that really counts.

Speaker 2 (01:51:57):
And I think when there's been great tag teams, and
sometimes it has to do with the promoter liking tag
team wrestling, Sometimes it has to do with like in
the AWA, the son of the promoter isn't a serious
singles wrestlers, but he can be a tag wrestler, so
they push that. But other times it just it does
have to do with the talent that you've got. If
a tag team just catches fire, you kind of build
around him. If you've got the von Eric brothers and

(01:52:18):
you can't really count on one of them to carry
a match, or you just happen upon a free birds
von Eric situation that catches fire, you can build a
whole territory around it. Vincuc Mann doesn't do that. I
mean there's been times he's put top stars together, you know,
when you can say Jericho's been through a few rounds
of that. Back in the day, though, Shawn Michaels and
Steve Austin, i mean Edgen Kirk well see Edgend Christian

(01:52:40):
were kind of part of that era with the Dudley's
and the Hardy's where it was for a lot of people,
it was kind of a high point for take team
wrestling in WWE, but none of them were even looked
at as potential top single stars. I mean, it took
edge a lot of time, a lot of time to
drop the one half of a tag team image in
vincric Man's eyes, an e merge. It actually took Matt

(01:53:02):
Matt Hardy and led and that whole controversy bringing out
a different personality and edge that actually seemed marketable because
his promos were so below par for so many years
and he was seen as as one half of a
take team, not a singles guy in WWE. That can
really really slow you down. The chat room is open,
by the way, for those who want to know. I
was very late and I apologize. But anyway, let's go

(01:53:22):
to the next phone call. Let's go to Erico nine
one seven. Please stay your name and where you're from.

Speaker 17 (01:53:27):
Anyway, what's going on that shoe from recording tie guys,
we're doing good?

Speaker 2 (01:53:31):
Oh good?

Speaker 5 (01:53:33):
Oh sorry?

Speaker 2 (01:53:34):
So yeah, I have okay, sure, I have a couple
of questions to answer.

Speaker 19 (01:53:39):
Your first, your opening topic about my favorite Rob moment
or star or whatever.

Speaker 2 (01:53:43):
I can give you, guys, the top four. I'll be quick.

Speaker 5 (01:53:47):
I have to go with first and foremost.

Speaker 17 (01:53:48):
I have to go with Steve Austin. I mean, if
he was such an anchor for that show even before
you know you know, the Attitude Era took place like
with him and Brett Hard and my key to me
really kept raw afloat as far as like what he
did with Brett, and then you know with Shawn Michaels
afterwards and with The Rock and all those guys. Secondly,

(01:54:08):
I'd have to go with Vince. I mean, I think
with Vin sick Man's there wasn't he was the one
that really put over Austin, like when everything was going great,
and just I think his his whole character, the way
he was on the show, I think that was that
was huge. I mean I think he was big, big time.
And then uh definitely probably Rock after him, Like you
think The Rock, you always think obviously he was like

(01:54:28):
the probably the biggest star that's been you know, able
to cross over to like acting, and he was, you know,
hilarious on the show. And then you know, fourts one,
I have to go with Triple H. You know, I
know a lot of people don't like Triple H that much,
but you know what, he was there through a lot
of the good eras, like you know, through the Attitude era,
through d X, like even before d X really blew up,

(01:54:49):
you know, and you can easily probably, you know, even
with the Helmsley faction when him and Stephanie were there
and they were running the show, which was you know,
pretty good TV at that point, you know, and he's
still around.

Speaker 2 (01:54:59):
So I have to go with those fours, so very good.
Anything you want to consider it?

Speaker 4 (01:55:04):
Right?

Speaker 6 (01:55:04):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:55:05):
Yeah, sorry, if.

Speaker 17 (01:55:07):
Two quick things and then I'll hang up the first
one I wanted to ask you guys speaking of like
talking about like old rob memories and stuff like that.
I remember when I was when WCW used to be
around and they were going against WWE, and there used
to be like one of those things where talent used
to exchange all the time, like where one guy would
go to RAW, We'll go to WCW, the other guy

(01:55:27):
would go to WWE, so on and so forth. And
I remember WWE used to always whenever a WCW talent
came over, they would always have that person. It seemed
like all the time the job job to a WWE
guy like put them all. Like I can remember when
the Radicals came over there and they put up by
you know, lost to DX right away. And then when
Christiericho came over there, he lost to the.

Speaker 5 (01:55:48):
Rock right away.

Speaker 17 (01:55:49):
And I know, like in TNA the way they do
and now it's whenever it seems like a guy from
WWE comes over, they.

Speaker 2 (01:55:54):
Just push them right to the top.

Speaker 17 (01:55:56):
Or anyone even Rob Vandam you can even say, Uh,
what do you guys think? Do you guys think that
if a new talent debuts uh with a new federation,
do you think that the federation should push.

Speaker 5 (01:56:07):
Him right push him right away?

Speaker 17 (01:56:09):
Or should they have his job to their to their
homegrown towns and has been there to try to give them.

Speaker 2 (01:56:13):
Like a good you know, Webb or whatever a roof
pretty think.

Speaker 5 (01:56:19):
I think I think it depends, but I think if
there's money to be made, then they ought to be
shot into whatever situation where there's money to be made.
If there's if there's a suggestion that they can't count
on the guy or that they need to make sure
that he's loyal to his new home, to his new
w W home, then yeah, I see going ahead and
having them do that job right up of that then
getting things going, and then getting things going. It depends

(01:56:42):
on what kind of competition they're up against, you know,
whether the other company is really strong or not. He
can take somebody back or in the reliability of the start.
But if they have faith in the star that he's
you know, that he's going to do business, then I
don't see why you need to turn around and do that.
I think you've got that guy is now yours. Do
what you can to make the most money out of

(01:57:03):
him from the very beginning.

Speaker 2 (01:57:05):
So that'd be And Bruce, I want to go back
to something Bill brought up at the beginning of the call,
which is vinsic Man as very high up. I think
he had him at number two, Joe, Yeah, number two
as the all time raw you know, great list did
the Vince count I mean it all comes out of criteriocously,
but Evin tie up on your list for the reason
she said, I mean, there's some compelling arguments to be made.

Speaker 5 (01:57:28):
Oh no, he's a promoter, promoters of bonds and they
can't these stars a show. No, no, everything he said
was dead on this McMahon belongs in the argument, I'd say,
somewhere in the top five. Yeah, and you know, it
definitely belongs in an argument. And the fact that he waited,
the fact that we talked about this before, but you
sort of like knew that there was a heel inside

(01:57:48):
of this sick man and most fans knew that he
ran the company, but he was that overblown baby face.
And when he started to show he has spent so
much time and you can just see prepare and in
his own mind and fantasizing the runt of things that
he can he can say, and how to sneer, and
you know, he coached people to do it. He coaches
on neils to do it. And now he had the chance,

(01:58:08):
you know, watching watching great performers and not doing it yourself,
and all of a sudden, there's that chance. We saw
a little taste of it when he he did a
he did a brief view in Messa's, Tennessee with Jerry Lawler,
and he was tremendous and now he had a chance
to And it was also frustrated about the Brett Harkin
just couldn't believe that. He couldn't believe the number one
that would happened, and number two that people hated him

(01:58:30):
for him. People really did hate him. It's hard to
remember thirteen years ago, but people hated him.

Speaker 2 (01:58:34):
What happened all point l two. That's a great point
because remember when it first happened, Jim Ross The interviewed
Vince on Raw and Rob and Vince was trying to
babyface himself. I mean, Vince was trying to to convince
people I had I did what I had to do
for the fans. He was earnest, he was I'm on
their side and and it didn't work. And and and
I think you're you're, you're, you're right on people who

(01:58:57):
just kind of know a few tigments about that history,
Lee or or I might think that was Vince turning heel.
You know that it was all an angle. That was
it was all an angle, and certainly over the years
they've tried to turn it into one, and there's been
a lot of coffycat versions of it, but that wasn't
an angle. Vince wanted to be the baby face and
when he wasn't, Yeah, that frustration caused him brought something
out in him. It's kind of similar to what happened
with Edge. You know, Edge got frustrated with being made

(01:59:18):
the heel and that whole Matt Hardy lead a thing,
and it brought emotions up that allowed him to actually
be a really good promo guy. And it's it's the best,
the best Berg leader ever did on the mic was
also on the bite this show when she finally spoke
up and and and just ripped into the whole, the
whole fiasco and how stupid she thought it was so
real life does sometimes inspire someone to bring out a
different side in them and and and speak from the heart,

(01:59:40):
so to speak or speak from emotion.

Speaker 22 (01:59:49):
I'm Kelly Wells, host of p w T Talks NXT,
the longest running NXT podcast anywhere. Join me along with
Nate Lindberg, Bruce Lee Hazelwood and special guests, live every
two day night, just minutes after NXT, where we cover
the good, the bad, and the ugly on the way
to becoming a star in WWE. Check us out live
on YouTube or stream later wherever you get your podcast.

Speaker 5 (02:00:19):
All Right, you know the key is not the key
is to work it into an incredible way into the
storylines so that you have you can have the realism,
fuels the emotion, but you don't have this workshoot stuff
that ends up burning people out and doesn't make sense
fair enough.

Speaker 2 (02:00:36):
I do you have anything else before we go?

Speaker 17 (02:00:38):
Yeah, just last one and I'll hang up. I actually
called you guys about I think about a month ago.
I'm not sure if he might have been just you
Wade or someone else. I'm that share but I call
about Yeah, you guys, tell it's so interchangeable.

Speaker 2 (02:00:51):
You.

Speaker 17 (02:00:51):
I was talking about CM punk and it seemed and
I had mentioned that I thought that maybe, you know,
WWE was kind of punishing him a little bit, you know,
since that whole Undertaker thing happened where you know, we're
don't take it didn't like the way each rest or something.
That's the room where I heard online. And then they
took they took the title off of him, and then
they they all of a sudden they put him with

(02:01:11):
the Straight Edge Society.

Speaker 5 (02:01:13):
And it seems like the Straight.

Speaker 17 (02:01:14):
Edge Society over the last month or so has just
really plummeted. And you know, I just wanted to.

Speaker 2 (02:01:18):
Get your guys take.

Speaker 17 (02:01:19):
Do you guys think that you know, you know, since
this is like dying all of a sudden, that they
just gave him like that gimmick. I don't even know
like how to word this, but in a way to
like make him look foolish, because that's how he's always,
you know, been portrayed as a straight edge guy who
like loves you know who doesn't drink or whatever, because
it seems like since they've given him that gimmick, and
it's a great gimmick, I ad miss like he looked

(02:01:40):
it was a good it was a good story everything
with the way he did everything.

Speaker 5 (02:01:43):
I remember at the Royal Rumble he was great and.

Speaker 17 (02:01:45):
All that stuff, But like he hasn't even been around
the title picture like at all. And we're talking about
a guy who a year ago was having awesome matches
with Jeff Hardy and he was like the hottest villain
at the company level where people just hated him. And
now it's just that that holds the straight ens. It
just looks like it's been it's it was good at
first and then all of a sudden, it's all it's

(02:02:05):
like not going anywhere. It kind of reminds me of
when Perry Saturn had that stup and mop and everyone
loved it and it was really just their version of
screwing Perry Saturn over the company is just to make
him look stupid because of what happens with that job
or guy or whatever. I'm might be totally off, but
you know, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (02:02:20):
I wouldn't want to take it. Yeah, I wouldn't say
he goes quite as far as Saturn. But but I mean,
I hear what you're saying. I'm curious about Bruson's about this.
But in my my, my perspective on this or my
philosophy is WWE has guys plotted in certain ways, and
I think history shows this. There's guys who are main
eventors no matter what, and when they're not, they try

(02:02:41):
to find a way to get a back at the
main events as quick as possible. And you can only
afford to do that on each brand with like four
guys at a time. Right now, on RAW, I'm trying
to think who also qualified. Sena and Randy Orton are
the two we got to have a main event spot
for them some way, somehow where they're in the top two,
you know, top two fews on RAW and I'm smacked down.
It's less so because Sweger seemed like he was gonna
be that guy, but he wasn't quite yet. But clearly

(02:03:03):
when Undertaker is around, he's that guy. Ray sort of is,
but he's even fringe. There's other people that they look
at as utility guys in the top tier or top
of the second tier. They can rotate in to the
top spot, but they also will rotate them out, and
it's not a sign that they're a failure. Even Jericho
has moved into that spot, much to the frustration of

(02:03:24):
a lot of Jericho fans. He's become a top tier
utility guy, where sometimes he's in the top two, sometimes
he's not. Big Show is another guy I used to
make the same argument about what Big Show is doing
now as you do about CM PUNK. I think when
someone's your favorite or you admire their work, you think
they've done a great job, you want to see them
stay there. I feel that way about Jack Szweger. I
thought he did great in that top spot, so I'm

(02:03:46):
kind of frustrated as if you were seeing him move
down and febe with MVP in the mid card right now.
But I don't look at that as management saying we
think less of him than we did before. I think
that is just revealing what management thought of him all along,
which is we'll test him out on the main events
and we'll put him there, but he's not a guy
that we're going to build the whole brand around indefinitely.

(02:04:06):
So that's how I take that. I don't see it
as a burial. I'm not crazy about what they've done
with him either. I think Punk has had some pretty
long winded some pretty long winded promos that I thought
were drawn out too much and kind of tested my patience.
And I think they portrayed lu Gallows and especially Mercury
is kind of jobbers and his subservience, and that's kind

(02:04:28):
of overtaken me that that storyline aspect has overtaken the
idea that they could be built up. Bruce, what do
you think of of Sampunk's push lately, And you know,
keep keep in mind and of this, I'll put this
into question. Keep in mind, you can only have one
main event for each brand on every pay per view,
and only one main event on TV, and they're going
with different guys. Is that necessarily a sign of Punk
being buried.

Speaker 5 (02:04:49):
I don't think he's being buried. I think that they're
not as happy with you know, they Lego Serena and
Mercury is kind of hasn't had a chance or really
found his slice. Luke Gallows is is what Luke Gallows is,
you know, a big, a big klutsy guy, and and
there's there's stuff you can do with Luke Gallows, but
it's not he's not developed into what they want yet.

(02:05:10):
I you know, I would say you just you look
at what happens with Nexus. I think I think sometimes
they you know, not only do they have their guys
that they want put in their spots, that they have
flotted new acts into where they want them, and if
they they will resent those new acts that they get
over more than where they're supposed to. And we've seen,
you know, we've seen that sometimes it's just Kasey Kingston.

(02:05:32):
We've seen it years ago with with with Rob Van
Dam and with Chris Jericho. I mean there are times,
there are times that that does happen. So it's loot things.
It's the top guys you talk about and the ones there,
but they're until they wipe them out. I'm not I
think Straight out of Society is still an ongoing Bible
act in W W and and and Punk is the

(02:05:53):
one that does as long as he's talking, as long
as he's given time to get his character over, then
I don't think he's in the I don't think he's
he's down there, but he but he's one of those
guys that's subject to go down the cart a little bit.
So other guy's gonna have nine events. He's not gonna
be you know, he's not gonna be in every night.

Speaker 7 (02:06:10):
I'm don SmackDown.

Speaker 5 (02:06:11):
Can leave with what you talked about.

Speaker 2 (02:06:14):
Good answer. Let's go back to the fall line and
begin or return to the fall lines with er quote
at oh two. Please stay to naming where you're from.

Speaker 23 (02:06:22):
My name's Richard. I'm from Vermont, and i'd like to
I'd like to switch directions, and i'd like to talk
about Luna Vashon.

Speaker 2 (02:06:30):
Yeah, yep, absolutely, And I never met.

Speaker 23 (02:06:33):
Luna Vashon, but being up here in Vermont, I've met
Butcher Vashon, her stepdad a number of times, and a
more gracious guy you couldn't meet. And basically around Christmas
time he comes up to the mall here, sets up
a table with his wife and sell stuff, and he

(02:06:55):
even is the mall Santa Claus. And every year I
go up there, buy his book, buy a T shirt,
or buy something, and then I always end the conversation
by asking how mad Dog is, and then I ask
him how Luna is, and the father's pride in his
eyes talking about Luna. It just must be heartbreaking for him.

(02:07:18):
Your thoughts.

Speaker 5 (02:07:21):
Bruce.

Speaker 2 (02:07:21):
We talked about this at some length on the Bruce
Mitchelladeo Show this weekend. Just so people know who only
listen to the Live Cats. We're not ignoring that story.
We you know, have talked about it on the VIP
side at length. But I mean there's no doubt. I mean,
unless they were estranged, which clearly they weren't. The emotions
of a father losing a daughter is overwhelming and something
I don't even I don't even like to go there

(02:07:42):
emotionally and imagine that kind of thing. We've we've learned
a little more details, confirmed details. I guess that were
suspicions beforehand that you know, there were some pill issues,
some pills found in the house in Luna's mother's house
when her body was found. Bruce, do you want to
add anything to Richard tumments or or to this ongoing story.

Speaker 5 (02:08:06):
I mean, you know, Ludiva Sean was a real force
of energy, I mean for good for good and could
be real difficult too, but I mean she was somebody
that had a unique look and unique act for the
wrestling business, and I think that she just choose the
best of both worlds in some ways and that she
grew up and understood it from growing up in the family.
But also she brought something, you know, she brought the

(02:08:27):
newness of it. I mean, there was nobody like Leonova Shawn,
and you know they not kind of talked about some
personal you know, personal spears we had with her. And
I mean, I'll just never forget sitting backstage in DCW
show and watching her just cut up and and do imitations.
And she did Dorothy from The Wizard of Oz. She
did that that gravelly voice and then switched to Dorothy
from The Rist of Wives, and it was one of

(02:08:48):
the one of the most amazing things I've ever seen before,
you know, in my life. And I also just think
that she suffered. I mean, when you were you're wanting
to perform, but you also have that bipolar. Bipolar is
a really tough disease and tough inmotional thing and and
you medicate yourself and you do things to get rid
of that pain, and it's just it's a tough thing.

(02:09:10):
And you know, butcher Rashaun mad Do Sean div DeShawn died,
one of the daughters died in a car accident, and
she was really well respected in the lesson World two.

Speaker 2 (02:09:22):
So I mean it's a.

Speaker 5 (02:09:23):
Loss and it goes into everything we talk about and
you know the culture of the wrestling business. So I
feel for the Masham's I really do.

Speaker 2 (02:09:33):
Do you think w W is gonna this is a
question from the chat room, And do you think WWE
will acknowledge her death on a nine hundredth episode of
her at the beginning? Or has it been too long?
Unless he two friends of a star? And do you
not want to draw attention to it through WWE for
all the pr reasons, so they'll just ignore it and
keep it on the website.

Speaker 5 (02:09:50):
Living Man is running as long as linous Man is
running for the friend, and I don't think we're gonna
see anymore unless it's unless it's something of something like
a macky garrit you all of death, and we're not
going to see any kind of except belonging to the
w W. We're not gonna see anybody like that. I'm
honored on the show until the Senate rations, however, and
maybe not after that ever again today.

Speaker 2 (02:10:12):
And short, short answer, but what's your feeling of it?
I mean, what obligations WWE have to acknowledge the death
of every former ww competitor, putting aside, you and I
agree are strong feelings on WWE's culpability, on the strange
coinciding of people who work for WWE and then end
up with pill addictions that very often have to do
with injury suffer in the ring, which is something her

(02:10:32):
mother is saying was the case, putting all the politics,
not politics, but that aspect of it aside from a
business standpoint, should WWEB, I mean, they've done a lot
of people wrestle for them over the years. Every show
could be kind of quote this downer for the viewers
if they are acknowledging the death of everybody as often
as they happen, and they'll start happening more often because
they've been around longer.

Speaker 5 (02:10:53):
Well, people should be done at the age of forty eight.
I mean that's you know, that's that's kind of you
read the wind.

Speaker 2 (02:11:02):
You you know, you.

Speaker 5 (02:11:05):
Show the wind, you read the worm wind. I'll get
it right that Should they do it and someone's been
on the air for someone's been on their show for
as long as Ludamashn was and was part of the
show and a memorable character, I'd say yes. And I
think there's also the business of how your talent feels
about the company that they work for, and if they

(02:11:25):
start they really feel like the company is callous to
the feelings and callous to their comrades and and and
their breathing process, then that can be a problem too
in your business. So you know, I don't know, I
mean I think that I think that that too many
wrestlers die. I think they need to address that and
take care of that. Then you don't have to worry

(02:11:47):
too much about you don't have to worry as much
about advancing wrestling death putting them on your show. And
the truth this is getting out of. TMZ covers this
kind of stuff. The social networks cover this. The it's
you know, the media is sensitive to the to these
deaths and the how so they're gonna get hurt on
these as long as those causes are there.

Speaker 2 (02:12:09):
Maybe they just need to run a crawler at the
bottom of the screen twenty minutes into the show during
the first match. You Know. Next next week this DVD
comes out. Join us next week for you Know this
week on Impact, this week on bank Down, and the
next For the latest death of former WW competitors, go here.
WW dot com slash o bitch and just just have
a generic message up so people can go find out

(02:12:30):
who died and if anybody died this week, because at
some point it just is so ridiculous. And that's that's
the dilemma that we're in, and that that's that's what
makes this subject so heartbreaking, because it's the fact that
we have to talk about whether it would be it
would how sad it would be for viewers if WWB
acknowledged every death of somebody underage fifty throughout the year

(02:12:52):
every year. That shouldn't be a subject. That's the problem,
and and that brings up I know we do this
in various formats and we've done it on other shows,
but we've gotten a number of emails since lands Kid's
death and even Luna's death, and I just want to
make a brief statement on this because this is the
number one point of confusion I think that people have
with my point of view and Bruce view and I
largely agree on most of this is it comes down

(02:13:13):
to a language issue because the word blame means so much,
the word culpability means different things to different people. The
point that we're arguing when it comes to WWE's responsibility, culpability, blame, whatever,
is not to diminish the factor that does exist, which
is a decision is made by a grown up to

(02:13:34):
take a pill that history shows could lead to addiction
and death. And when they start taking pills and they
choose to continue in a career once they start taking
more than the prescribed dose, I acknowledge that is a
choice an adult has made and they shouldn't make it.
I'm never disputed that, and that aspect of responsibility is

(02:13:54):
not absent from my argument. Now that I've acknowledged that,
I want to say something else, though, which is, if
you're a huge, huge corporation internationally, like WWE just debuted
in China this weekend, run by people who have tons
of money that they've made from this company, seen by
billions worldwide, whatever, when you see a correlation between people

(02:14:20):
you work for doing what you ask them to do
and drug addiction and death at a much higher level
than with people who work in other jobs, whether it's
road construction or being movie stars or rock stars, or
school teachers or cyclists, have professional cyclists, whatever, you want
to choose, the whole spectrum. When you have this abnormally

(02:14:41):
high correlation between people who work for you and your
schedule and what you ask of them in the ring,
and then they get addicted to pills and they end
up with broken lives or dead. My argument is that
even though there's a personal choice by an adult along
the way, WWE as a decent corporation somewhere earlier than now,
some earlier than when Eddie Guerrero died, certainly earlier than

(02:15:02):
when Chris Penwa died, should have said, hey, let's take
a look at this. Is there anything not that we
have to do. You don't even have to say we're
responsible for doing it. Just change the language and say,
is there anything we can do out of decency to
look at why there's a correlation mat and people were
working for us and people getting addicted to drugs and dying.

(02:15:22):
Is there anything we can do? And then start trying
those things you know on Jim Ross Bloggs and said, well,
you know, is a bessy with the union. But he's like, oh,
I don't know if there's any ultimate solutions. It's not
about finding an ultimate solution. It's about trying a little
harder to find a few things that collectively might have
worked sooner, And that's my argument with WWE. Clearly the
schedule and clearly the way the incentives are built up,

(02:15:45):
where if you if you end up with an injury
you and you drop out of the picture, you can
end up with you can end up quote losing your spot,
you can look like you're not tough, you're not dedicated,
you can look like you don't respect those who paid
the way for you by working injured before. There's a
whole culture that WWE's leaders have not acknowledged and dealt
with over the past twenty years. That's my argument. It's

(02:16:06):
not legally they should have that they had to do something,
and I don't like the word responsibility or culpability.

Speaker 5 (02:16:11):
Just out of.

Speaker 2 (02:16:13):
Decency, they should have seen this red light flash and said,
let's change something. Let's find a way to make money
and present a product of the fans that's thoroughly entertaining,
and not do things that clearly there's some correlation here
with wrestlers getting on drugs and dying. Bruce, any thoughts
on that, Yeah.

Speaker 5 (02:16:30):
I mean there is a combility and if it makes
you uncomfortable, it should Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:16:37):
Yeah, thanks for downloading today's show. Take it to the
next level with a VIP membership, get shows like this,
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(02:16:57):
exclusive shows that I host with Rich Fan and Todd
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two and enjoy all the benefits, all the bonus content
and the ad free listening experience. Pw torch dot com
slash go VIP.

Speaker 2 (02:17:18):
And but do you agree that we're not taking away
the culpability or responsibility of an adult who chooses when
the effect. When the pain pill as prescribed doesn't do
what it did three months earlier when you started taking it,
and you start taking a couple extra and a couple extra,
and you start feeling that addiction, and then the schedule
starts overwhelming you, and you decide, I need a pill
to get to sleep, and then I need to pill

(02:17:39):
to get up in the morning to make my early flight.
I think for us to have credibility in putting the
quote blame or responsibility or whatever on WWE, we have
to acknowledge that it'd be good if more wrestlers in
this position did not put their career ahead of their
life and at some point staw warning sign and got out.
I don't take that, don't. I don't erase all of

(02:17:59):
her responsibility from what happens to all these people who
have sided rug addiction. They had a choice to get
out when that sign was first there. But the problem is,
that's a problems so important that I just say this
last sense or two and then I absolutely hide over.

Speaker 5 (02:18:12):
But it is.

Speaker 2 (02:18:12):
But that doesn't change the fact that ww has to
understand they're dangling a carrot in front of people who
are young and have worked very hard to get where
they're at and they don't want to lose that spot.
And WWE puts people in a position of over and
over again leaving a dangerous lifestyle in order to keep
something they worked very hard to get. And I think
it's the responsibility of the higher up adults making big

(02:18:33):
money and not making those sacrifices to step in and say,
wait a second, something's wrong here. We're not going to
dangle that carrot in front of these young people anymore
when we're asking them to do what we're doing for them.
We're going to create a system that makes it safe
for them to step away when they need to and
still have a job waiting for them when they get
when they get back from letting their body and mind recover. Okay,
go ahead, Yeah, No, it's there's.

Speaker 5 (02:18:54):
This termacry or this need to look at something and go,
what's the one the blame. What's the one person who's
to blame?

Speaker 2 (02:19:02):
Is it?

Speaker 5 (02:19:03):
Is it the wrestler or is it the company? Is
it the is it the concussions or is it the painkills?
Or is it the dds? Or is it the recreational
drugs that you know you do for fun or what
you know? There's this one thing and it's not it's
a synergy, and there's a negative synergy, but a lot
of the power to change things resilds with the WBS.

(02:19:23):
It's resided with them. They set the tone of the
wrestling business for the last thirty years, and these these
issues have been around for twenty five of those years,
probably even more than that, because the truth was, these
these problems exacerbated because of the things we're talking about.
So there is no way to look at this and
go I just want my entertainment. I don't want to

(02:19:45):
revolve them buttons, So let's get straightened out.

Speaker 2 (02:19:48):
I think you're along with your point, and Bruth at
the beginning was great. It isn't we have to find
one culprit. It's either the it's even either the victim's fault,
that the wrestler's fault they died, or it's w w
et faul. Our argument is it's a combination of false
but the person who's making the most money and in
the position to truly change the system is WWE and

(02:20:09):
they have chosen not to. It is a choice out
of out of a profit not wanting to acknowledge it,
or the false argument that it's up to the wrestler
entirely to not go down that path when they're creating
the incentives, not with the purpose of creating that, but
the incentives that they've created in their systems for other

(02:20:29):
reasons have led to this. It's time to change those incentives,
and they haven't done a good enough job acknowledging that
and changing those incentives, and that's where the culpability does lie.
I think that that strong correlation that they have spent
a lot of energy rejecting over the years, and I
think if they would have turned that energy towards figuring
out a better system to rotate talent, to recognize people
who are hurt and and and make sure that that

(02:20:50):
the flight schedules are such where wrestlers weren't you know,
patents about making their flight And I mean it's just
there's so many things that could have done to make
this a better existence for wrestlers, and so many more
be a live today, and they would have taken such
a smaller hit financially and reputation wise had they done
that stuff. I just think economically, it would have been
smart to move quicker too. Okay, back to the full mine.

(02:21:11):
Let's go to Eric co six five one. Thanks for calling.
We stay your name and where you're from?

Speaker 20 (02:21:16):
Hey wait, it's Mike from what Gray Colin today?

Speaker 5 (02:21:18):
How you doing doing good? How you doing not bad
at all?

Speaker 24 (02:21:26):
I just wanted to say, Steve Austin slam dunk of
the first nine episodes. I think anyways, so many great
moments with him. Also wanted to comment the congrats to
the WWE for being three years later to the party
and finally putting content in iTunes. I think that was

(02:21:46):
much needed deal. And I was able to purchase the
Ron smack Down money in the bank Ladder matches in
the Favorite.

Speaker 5 (02:21:53):
A couple of months ago for six dollars or.

Speaker 20 (02:21:56):
Something, really enjoyed them and have them have them on
my computer.

Speaker 2 (02:22:00):
So I think that's a.

Speaker 24 (02:22:02):
Great thing for WV and there's a lot of money
that they can make off of that. I want to
know what your guys' thoughts on that is.

Speaker 2 (02:22:07):
I love I love all of card purchasing of matches.
I love all the card purchasing of online of great
moments in raw history. I think if they put some
work into it and create a format and and a
predictability or a routine to it, I think you can
get a lot of people going to going to certain
matches and certain angles and certain shows and paying a

(02:22:29):
small fee in order to do it. It's a model
that a lot of people have suggested for journalism, is
if all these major media entities could get together and
agree on creating basically a PayPal system, but it would
be for journalism and people would simply subscribe for a
certain amount of money. Every month they'd put a deposit
in and it would a balance would carry over a

(02:22:49):
month month, just like a like minutes on a cell phone,
and you would click on high end top shelf writers
doing their best work, whatever your area of interest is.
You click on the article, and it takes two cents
or five cents out of your out of your monthly spipe,
of your monthly amount that you put in that account,
and then it would just add up and pretty, so

(02:23:09):
you know, journalist would have a way to make money.
The top shelf ones would reserve their work for there,
and it would create a copyright intetive. I think for
ww A is the same thing. If you don't want
people stealing your stuff offered at a reasonable rate in
a better format, with more accessibility, with the best picture possible,
and people will pay if the price is fair for legal,
legitimate content in a great format. So I mean, I

(02:23:30):
don't think it's going to replace the feeling of a
live weekly show on cable anytime soon, but it makes
sense for WWE to have their foot in that in
that side of new media and to start going to
the effort offer it up. Because the idea of people
driving out the best Buy or Fye or Sam Goodie
to buy a DVD off the shelf. While that's that
market is still there, there's this huge market that's emerging

(02:23:50):
where people sit down, they want to get their fixed.
There's a match they didn't see, or a moment they
want to relive. And if you offer to them in
a great format, with a great resolution and an easy
way to pay, I think I think it's another market
to open up. It's it's not mature yet, but I
think it's smart to get it now. Bruce your books
thoughts on.

Speaker 5 (02:24:06):
That, Yeah, I mean I know that I enjoyed going
to iTunes. So I've taken all these little places that
you can go and big places that you can go,
and the various platforms you can use, and how you
can make it convenient and easy and impulse. Yeah, the
buyers is a good thing. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:24:23):
Yeah, And it's I mean, it's it's like the journalism example.
I mean, different ideas. I've read different ideas on it.
But you know, if you said, all right, I'm used
to paying uh eight dollars a month for my newspapers,
it's my local newspaper subscription. Well, now you pay eight
bucks and you get a you get a website, and
it's a whole family of journalists, columnist articles from all over.
And if you're used to paying maybe twenty five cents
for the daily paper and you read ten articles in it,

(02:24:44):
well you read get charged two cents per articles that
you click on. It's just it's a gimme go. I
want to I want to read a local beat writer
talk about last night's game. Two cents off your off
your balance of eight dollars per month, and your balance
carries over. It's it's a it's an easy way to
do it. And it's if a paper is you know,
people are want to pay twenty five cents for a
newspaper and people read three, four to five six articles
on it, that's the way to go. But the key
for WWE is to find that balance on pricing, you know,

(02:25:07):
to find that balance on This isn't new content, it's
not live content. And there's probably some free stuff out there.
There's free material allowed there that that we haven't chased
down yet for copyright reasons. So keep the price reasonable.
If you're charging fifty five dollars for a high depth
pay per view, which WWE is now it's tout to
charge much less than six dollars per match without offending
people who paid full price for the pay per view.

(02:25:27):
UFC offers their pay per views on their iPhone apps.
They charge the exact same price that they charge for
pay per view, which may be a contractual issue within
Demand I'm not sure, or Direct TV, but there's this
hesitation to discount it based on the media format that
they're in, and again that's something that don't get worked
out over time. The phone number here on PW toortch
live cast it's six four six, but down the final

(02:25:50):
six minutes of the show. Before the nine hundredth edition
of Raw, we're getting your feedback on today's show on
who the top stars of all time are? On Raw,
We've got to pull up on pw torch dot com
asking you who you think the top star is. I
think we probably should have done who do you think
this number two star is? And accepted almost everybody would
go with Steve Austin because over fifty percent did vote
for uh did vote for Steve Austin. Let's go back

(02:26:13):
to the full line zooe right now in our final
closing minutes and go to aera code four zero two.
Thanks for holding. Please state to.

Speaker 25 (02:26:19):
Names where you're from, Hey lad and versus a raal
from Lincoln?

Speaker 2 (02:26:23):
Hey real? Can do for me? What's up to this?

Speaker 11 (02:26:26):
Oh?

Speaker 25 (02:26:26):
Well, I am going to Uh, I'm gonna spoil the
party here by bringing up the bringing up p.

Speaker 2 (02:26:32):
And a wet waded through a show without it.

Speaker 11 (02:26:36):
Yeah, yeah, I'm.

Speaker 5 (02:26:38):
Gonna be that guy.

Speaker 25 (02:26:40):
I you know what you you guys know uh, Eric Bischoff,
Hulk Cogan and Vince Grussol. I'm assuming a ton better than.

Speaker 2 (02:26:49):
I know him know them.

Speaker 25 (02:26:51):
And I mean, looking at the product Impact Pro last
few weeks, do you think they actually sit down and
read the script and the things that they booked before
they actually Balton stillmoth So, I mean I was looking
at I was watching Impact and there was just a
moment that blew my mind where Hogan, Hogan's group is
co funding Players group, and Hogan said the line, you know,

(02:27:13):
the guys that I'm standing here with this is a
real TNA. And the guys standing behind him are Kurt Angle,
Jeff Hardy, Ken Anderson and Pope All guys who made
their name in DODA d versus the entire group of Flairs.

Speaker 5 (02:27:28):
Flairs Group, with the exception.

Speaker 25 (02:27:29):
Of Matt Morgan, are all, you know TNA homegrown talent?
And is it just a lack of care about the
homegrown talent or is it just a big oversight or
maybe even the smaller sid I don't know if I'm
looking too deep into it, but that just kind of
blew my mind.

Speaker 2 (02:27:45):
Bruce, what do you think of that?

Speaker 5 (02:27:47):
You know, I think they pay attention to when they're
riding the lines for and about Vixy Corner, and then
I think there's other times when they don't pay all
that much attention A lot. I would say those are
long and remains and the guys that were standing behind
me Hogan all you know, w D cast Off and
and and WD alumni odd DNA, because that's what they've
tried dying now. So I think there's stuff that they don't.

(02:28:10):
I think that I think that Eric Bischoff and Hulk
Coag and I suspect take a cursory look at the
script chase the things that just jump out of and
about themselves, and then they'll do much.

Speaker 8 (02:28:19):
More than that.

Speaker 5 (02:28:19):
I think Vin Russo writes it and thinks that it's
manna from heaven, so there's no reason to look at
it after that. And that's say I would say, early
on Bishoff of Hogan probably are much more involved in it.
Now it's you know, now they you know, they've seen
they can't win, so I think they do what they
have to and cash that Chuck.

Speaker 2 (02:28:41):
And and I'll think in defense three to Oho of
Hogan from a pure storyline standpoint where they are currently
that that is that is the line to you. I
mean we can say, boy, look at the irony and
look at look at what DNA booked themselves into. It
doesn't match their own history. And I and I get that.
But right now there is the Rick Flair group of heels,

(02:29:02):
and there's Paul Cogan and the guys who are going
to be facing him standing behind him. It was the
right thing to say for storyline reason. So I'll give
I'll give him that that at least they didn't say
something contradicting a current storyline. All right, real, thanks for call.
We're gonna try to get one more call in here
before we wrap up the show. Eric go dot seven
eight zero. The say the name where you're from or

(02:29:22):
seven six years.

Speaker 13 (02:29:24):
Hi, I'm Jack from Hollywood. I was just wondering about
the ww Power twenty five system and how that works, Abbruce.

Speaker 2 (02:29:34):
Have you ever looked at the ww dot com Power
twenty five?

Speaker 5 (02:29:38):
No, I have not. And you know what I really
that's that's kind of just a look two days ago.
In a separate direction from my radar say that again,
what I really think that I'm probably not going to
do that in the future.

Speaker 2 (02:29:52):
I've never worked at it, I tell you what I mean.
If I thought that the writing team or vincement Man
himself was was getting behind that, and it wasn't just
kind of, you know, a web feature to draw some
hits by the web team, I pay more attention to it.
I mean I've looked at it for sure. I've done
some Keller hotlines reacting to it just for fun. I

(02:30:13):
like the fact that they create. They create a part
of what I like about Matt Striker. I mean, there's
lots that I don't like about them, but I like
that Matt Striker like watches a match as if it's
real competition and gets totally drawn at the moment. I
like the Power twenty five in the sense that they
acknowledge what happens on TV as if it's totally real.
It's within that universe bubble that WWE creates, and I

(02:30:36):
like when they stay within that on their website and
make Drew McIntyre's upset win over Tane or you know, Undertaker, whatever,
you know, they'll acknowledge that. Go he moved got six
thoughts this week over that because he had a big
win over a former world champion. So I like to
say acknowledge that kind of thing. I think it doesn't,
in the end mean a lot, because I don't think
it affects anyone's push. But for website visitors, I think
it's a nice reflection on what's going on on t

(02:31:00):
and from the times that I have looked at it,
I think it shows that the person writing it has
paid attention to what has happened on TV. What do
you think about it?

Speaker 13 (02:31:10):
I just just think it works. Yeah, I just think
it works better than my TNA's Top to ten. That
makes no sense that they start forgot about right now.

Speaker 2 (02:31:20):
But that's about it. Okay, great, well we will wrap
up our show on that note. Bruce Mitchell, thanks very much.
If you're interested in APW Torch VIP membership. Go to
PW torch dot com slash.

Speaker 5 (02:31:32):
Go v I P.

Speaker 2 (02:31:34):
We welcome you with a VP member. I hope you'll
check out the pay version of our site until tomorrow,
Wake Keller if you have the Bruce Mitchell.

Speaker 1 (02:31:45):
Invite you to email the show with feedback or questions
or comments. That email address is Wade Keller Podcast at
PW torch dot com. That's Wadkeller Podcast at pw torch
dot com. Also welcome your feedback on Twitter. Even follow
us on Twitter at PW Torch and follow me at
the Wadekeller. That's at PW Torch and at the Wade Keller.

Speaker 26 (02:32:07):
Searching for more great pro wrestling talk, then join me.
Jason Powell host them the three weekly Pro Wrestling Boom Podcast.
Each week, he'll hear the latest news and analysis from
me and my team at pro wrestling dot Net along
with other pro wrestling media members. Plus the Pro Wrestling
Boom Podcast features long form interviews with notable names in
the pro wrestling industry. Subscribe and Itunicestitcher, Downcast, and all

(02:32:29):
your favorite secondary apps, or visit us directly at PW
boom dot com. Once again, that's pw boom dot com.

Speaker 1 (02:32:38):
Thanks for listening to our podcast. Did you know we
also have a website pw torch dot com daily news updates, editorials,
and my live TV coverage covering Raw, Dynamite and SmackDown
and my live pay per view coverage for WWE and AEW.
Create a tab or bookmark make it a daily stop.
Visit us throughout the day every day to keep up
on breaking news and more. That's p torch dot com.

Speaker 10 (02:33:02):
Need an extra dose of positivity in your wrestling podcasts,
will come join me Alan forel Over in the Progress
Paradise at pterbo Torch VIP as we mask on the
bright side of wrestling and focus on some of the
great matches and shows from around the world, be it
the US, Japan, Europe or Mexico. There's always a place

(02:33:22):
for wrestlings past and the paradise too, and we've done
fun historical shows such as the We Love Liger series
celebrating the glorious career of Jusian thunder Lighter and Our
Eye Was There When shows where our guests will join
me to talk about a classic bout that they were
in attendance for. We Love variety and you can expect
lots of it at the Progress Paradise. Detailed pw Torch

(02:33:44):
VIP subscription information and a list of all the VIP
benefits is available at pterwrew torch vip info dot com.
And yes, all VIP podcasts are compatible with popular podcast
apps on iPhone and Android devices, or you can stream
directly from our ad free VIP mobile site. See you
in the Paradise.

Speaker 1 (02:34:05):
One way that you can help us sustain our schedule
of putting out podcasts throughout the week is by giving
us a five star rating on Apple Podcasts. Just go
to Apple Podcasts and look for our Weight Keller Prosing
podcast and Weight Keller Prosing Post show and give us
a five star rating. We hope you think we've earned
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(02:34:27):
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Thank you so much.

Speaker 21 (02:34:43):
In twenty twelve, NXT transitioned into the developmental system and
ultimately the brand you see today. On the Torch VIP
podcast NXT Eight Years Back, we'll be taking a weekly
look at this page in NXT's early history.

Speaker 6 (02:34:58):
Join Kelly Wells and me I'm Stout from PWT Talks
NXT every Saturday as we go eight years back to
the day to track NXT's rising talents and why they
did or didn't work out exclusively for PW Torch VIP members.

Speaker 1 (02:35:12):
PW Torch VIP membership doesn't just give you add free
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(02:35:35):
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dating back to the year two thousand and three. There's
no larger, longer spanning pro wrestling podcast library than that
that comes with a PW Torch VIP membership now approaching
twenty years of podcasting. Go VIP and dive into our
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(02:35:58):
and special format podcasts that we've done throughout the years.
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