15 YRS AGO LIVECASTS: Keller & Powell talk Michael Cole as a heel announcer, WWE Night of Champions, RVD's shameful promo

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Speaker 2 (01:06):
Now, PW Torch and Speaker bring you the Wade Keller
Pro Wrestling Podcast.

Speaker 1 (01:16):
On today's Way Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast, we jump back
fifteen years again to the September twenty first and twenty
second episodes of the PWD Torch live cast. First up,
I was joined by Jason Powell from Pro Wrestling dot
Net for what would become the flagship and we discussed
the drop in Raw viewership, not a champion's fallout, who
the TNA champ should be at that moment, Michael Cole

(01:36):
as a heal announcer that was dreadful, the Mystery GM speculation,
rvd's shameful promo on TNAM PAC the previous week, and
much more, including a previously VP exclusive aftershow topic on
merging titles and brands, and more. Then, after that the
September twenty second live cast, where James Caldwell was joined
by PW Torch nostalgic columnist Brian Hoops. I talked about

(01:59):
with my callers Tuesday Night's n XT see Them Punk
on commentary, whether Punk is the new Chris Jericho, also
Jericho's storyline and real time tweet discussion, the poor Raw
TV rating and what Dodabe could do about it, whether
it means Vinsic Man or Triple H are coming back
for a quick fix, plus John Cena as a potential
heal with Nexus, the Mystery GM storyline, the col Ripping

(02:22):
into the or Ripping on the Heart, Dynasty, on Raw,
and much more. And then in the previously VP exclusive
after show, they discussed in depth rvd's promo on Impact
the previous week that Jason and I are critical of
the night before, also where it fits in historically, the
lack of vision and direction for TNA, steroids and sports,

(02:43):
including the PD issue with MMA and ChIL Son, and
plus nostalgia news and notes from Brian Hoops. So let's
get to it. These shows originally aired fifteen years ago
this week, and they are today's Wade Keller Pro Wrestling
Podcast fifteen years ago flashback for Friday, September twenty sixth,
twenty twenty five.

Speaker 3 (03:01):
Host Welcome to the PW Torch Live Test. I am
host Wade Keller, editor and publisher of the Pro Wrestling
Torch newsletter and the PW Torch dot com website. Joined
today as usual on Tuesdays by Jason Powell of Pro

(03:22):
Wrestling dot Net. How you doing, Jason?

Speaker 4 (03:25):
Doing great? Nice? We're just talking about how nice it
is to enjoy the weather while you can.

Speaker 3 (03:29):
I guess yeah, if you're in Minnesota. Just got back
from a fifteen mile bike ride. And it's always sad
when you in September, when you know you're about to
enter a six month stretch where you're kind of locked
indoors and exercises walking around the Mall of America or
going to the gym. So it was it was good,
beautiful day. Let's uh, man, There's lots to talk about
in wrestling, especially on the WWE front. With a pay

(03:51):
per view on Sunday and Raw last night, I don't
think there's any good reason to go into spoilers on
week Raw, So I just asked callers to honor that
for people who do just want to watch Raw next
week and not have major things spoiled today. So we'll
consider that the ground rule for the show. But as

(04:11):
always a listener, beware, if that's really important to you,
we can't guarantee something might not slip out. Randy orton
the new WWE Champion Jason, was that the right decision
to go with on Sunday? And did it surprise you?

Speaker 4 (04:23):
You know, I guess it defends. It surprised me a
little bit. A guess in retrospect, he shouldn't have just
given the strong push they were giving him going into
that show. My only concern is that there's a lot
of talk about having a unification match at WrestleMania, and
if the idea is we need to get the belt
on Orton now, solidify him as champions so that when
whoever he faces at WRESTLEMANNI, if that match does take place,

(04:47):
I get it. That's just fine. But if they're going
to start, well, we might give it to Seamus, we
might have him work that match. Then you know, it's
just picked that guy because now is the time you
need long term champions to make a unification match field special.
So I guess that's my big concern.

Speaker 3 (05:03):
Yeah, and the unification issue is an interesting subject that
you know, we'll talk more about. You have something you've
reported on that have some news on that. I I don't.
I'm not sure. I mean, there's pros and cons about it.
We've talked about it before, but I kind of if
you're going to do two brands, I don't know how
practical it is to have one world champion unless you

(05:27):
elevate the US and IC titles to being really important.
And if they're willing to do that, then I'm all
for it. You can kind of have the floating champion
and let's keep in mind too, you know, there were
a lot of territories where that the top title was
the US title or the Americas the American title in
World Class Championship Wrestling or whatever I mean, name the territory,
they had a regional title, and then the world champion

(05:49):
would float from territory to territory and show up defending
against the top wrestlers in that territory. And so if
you know, it's not going to be exactly like that,
but if they do merge the two titles, and they
kind of go that direction, but they keep the brand
split and the roster split. If they do that, then
then you've got whoever holds the world title, it's going
to be on both shows, and that that may be

(06:09):
good and maybe bad. It may over expose the champion,
or it might create a circumstance where the champions overworked.
Or if the champion is your top draw and you
just want to have them on both shows because you
think it'll help both shows, then maybe there's a plus there.
I mean, what what what comes to mind when you
hear the pros and cons of merging the titles.

Speaker 4 (06:25):
Oh, I'm definitely against it. I don't mind merging some
of the lesser titles. I'm you know, I wouldn't even
mind seeing the Intercontinental in US titles both stay. But
you know, the women's merge was fine, the tag merge
a while back was fine. But with the world titles,
I just feel like you're depriving yourself of another quality
pay per view matchup that is something you can sell

(06:47):
because you know this this pay per view isn't a
good example with Canaan Taker because that one, I guess
probably didn't even need the world title. But there are
some We've seen some pay per view matches that if
you take the title element to from it, it doesn't
feel nearly a special but because it's a title match,
it really does become another selling point for your pay
per view.

Speaker 3 (07:09):
Going back to Orton's champion, who are I mean, we
know where they're going to right away, Seamus, But is
Randy On the type of person who you think is
over enough right now, has enough range of the character,
enough connection with the fans, good enough character of a babyface,
good interering wrestling. He's got a lot of good things
going from but he's not a long term proven guy
in terms of being that centerpiece babyface. Do you think

(07:31):
he's somebody they could have a nice line of challengers
ready to face him over the next couple of years
if they made him the champion more often than not.

Speaker 4 (07:40):
Well, I guess my concern there is it Randy has
good pay per view matches, but he's I really struggle
to think of the last great Randy Orton match we've seen,
and it's not the work, great as everything, but I
just feel like that's kind of been an element that's
been missing from WWE pay per views lately, is just
a truly memorable, great match, And I don't know that

(08:00):
Orton's getting delivered that are there. I mean, I guess
it's just at this point you run through the same
cambine of challengers that you would have when Sina was championed,
so it's going to feel like not so fresh. Maybe
that's the big match they eventually set up though, if
they ever want to go that route with John Cena.

Speaker 3 (08:16):
Do you think Orton is strong enough babyface right now
to be a centerpiece babyface. I mean, I don't know
that he feels comfortable smiling and playing to the fans.
I don't know that Jensick man thinks Randy Orton has
to smile and has to connect with the fans in
that traditional way. Well, that's not on raw. I thought
he had a great line, but it's not exactly a

(08:37):
kid's promotion type line where he says, I have no wanner.
I'll rko your grandmother, or I'll i will r k
oh my grandmother in order to keep this title, and
I'll rko yours just to see the look on our face.
That's really hard to sit down with your twelve year
old son and then have him say, yeah, I want
to buy Randy Orton merchandise and have him walking around.
If you're a parent, you know I can see that

(08:59):
not fitting. And I don't know. I just I'm not
sure where Randyorton's constitution is as a character that fits
WWE's style, which right now clearly is trying to include
children as a primary target or at least teenagers of
the primary target audience.

Speaker 2 (09:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (09:15):
I mean he is the PG stone Cold in a
lot of ways, and it's not a good mix. And
frankly it wasn't when he was Heel either. I mean,
how many PG characters do you see a run around
trying to punk kick people in the head and put
them out of action for how long. I mean, I
think WWE's I was going to walk that fine line
and probably cross it many times when it comes to

(09:36):
the PG rating, and so he's not an ideal champion
for a true PG television show. But I don't feel
like WWE is a true PG show, no matter how
many times they claim they are. He it's I mean,
I guess they've just decided to go all the way
with him. I mean, I think Sina has run his
course to some extent. It doesn't mean you can't go

(09:57):
back to it at some point, but we've just seen
him with the title so many times right now that
it just would feel like a rerun to put it
back on him. And I know some people are probably
right now going, well, yeah, Randy's just kind of in
the same boat. But it feels fresher than it has
in the past. Do you share that sentiment, waight or
do it just kind of feel like rerun territory with
Randy Orton?

Speaker 3 (10:18):
No, it feels fresher with him. I mean, I'm curious
to watch him. I'm not I'm sold on Randy Orton
as being a real total package of a guy that
I think you can build around. And I won't give
away too much because I wrote my cover story and
my editorial this week in the Torch Newsletter, which because
my bike cried today, I haven't gotten online yet, but
that'll be up right after the show here, and so
I don't want to give too much away for that

(10:39):
because I do want to subscribe. It's to kind of
see my case. But I made a pretty I don't
know what word to use. Groundbreaking is too overstating it,
but a real change, of course, I'll put it that
way in terms of how to feature Randy Orton as
champion in this week's Storge cover story, So I'm gonna
hold off. I'm kind of getting into too much detail
on that idea, but I'll just say that I feel
like w you can definitely commit to Randy Orton and should,

(11:03):
and that he's the right person. It's the right time
in his career, and when you look at the options,
I think he's the guy to go with. And it
feels fresh because he is in a new role. So
much of what makes a wrestler fresh is who his
opponents are, and I think that there's enough people lined
up I think their elevator. I mean, Seamus is ready
right now, and that can be a main obviously a
main event world title match. You've got mis moving up
the ranks. You can do some rostery shuffling and move

(11:25):
other people into that into that challenger role. So yeah,
I think it's fresh enough, and I think they need
to do something different than having Randy Orton as the
top guy. Is good. Plus, I think John Cena is
the type of character if he stays on the same
brand as Orton, who can I think he can be
involved in other things that don't involve the world title
for a while. I don't think Sina. Everyone just goes, well,

(11:47):
what's the point of Seenea being around if he's not
world champion. I think he can get on good sidetrack views.

Speaker 4 (11:53):
So I mean he clearly is right now with Naxus,
and yes, you know, my guess is that pay per
view wise, I don't think Nexus is disbanding, so you
got to think they're gonna continue that storyline with Sina
working within Nexus, trying to tear it down or something
along those lines, because he's forced to be part of
the faction. So yeah, they do have a nice side program.

(12:14):
For Seena established that he doesn't need to be in
that main event mix right now, it's kind of one
in one A with Orton and whoever his opponent are,
and then Seena in Nexus I think for a while.
And one issue from last night show that jumped out
of me is Seamus. He gets beat clean by Orton
at the pay per view with the RKO, and then

(12:34):
there's two weeks to go and tell hell wanna sell
and their big showdown match, and so I'm thinking they're
gonna put a ton of heat on Shamus tonight and
it said he takes an RKO. How weak does he
look going into that pay per view?

Speaker 3 (12:46):
Yeah, I mean, he tried to make his case and
it was good. You know that he'll make in his case.
I thought it was even better that the babyface had
a good comeback to his case. You know that I've
I've only lost my world title in multi person matches, which,
by the way, I think draws attention to the fact
that multi person matches with world titles on the line
is kind of stupid. I mean, you know, I mean,
it really does undercut the credibility of the world title

(13:07):
when you're putting that putting the champion in matches, where
after the champion loses, he goes, well, that really doesn't
count because there were so many distractions in the ring.
So I think that that's you know that, but that's
a that's another story, that's another subject. Yeah, you know,
I think their commitment right now is trying to make
the fans think they're going to get to see Randy
Orton be victorious over his top challenger. And two weeks

(13:27):
isn't enough time necessarily to make Orton look vulnerable compare
you know, up against Seamus anyway. Oh well, I just I.

Speaker 4 (13:35):
Think you could have accomplished that, you know, not make
him look completely vulnerable, but make it look like these
two are fairly even instead of just we only beat
him last night. Now he's r Kalawaen McCann, so we
know Randy's better than Seamus, and what do we need
to hell on a sell for?

Speaker 3 (13:48):
At least he did have the distraction of having the
belt tossed to him, and that's kind of what left
him vulnerable for the RKO. It was more trickery rather
than domination. Uh So you know, I would I would
give I would I would use that as a caveat
to a shamous looking really weak. I just think the
heel got all smart because he was staring at the
shiny gold belt before he got our KOed. Well, we

(14:10):
got tons of callers lined up, Jason. A lot of
callers want to talk about, uh, whatever it is they
want to talk about. So why don't we jump to
the phone lines if you want to get in a
line on the phone bakes, We've got seven people on
hold already, so if you want to participate in the show,
it's a good idea. Again on hold now, the number
is six four six seven two one nine eight two eight.
That's six four six seven nine a two.

Speaker 1 (14:28):
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(14:51):
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Speaker 3 (15:03):
Let's begin with AERA code seven oh three. Please state
your name and where you're from.

Speaker 5 (15:10):
Hey Wade, Jason, It's Larry from Atlanta.

Speaker 3 (15:13):
Hey Larry, what's on your mind today?

Speaker 6 (15:16):
Hey guys?

Speaker 5 (15:16):
Well, first off, I just gotta repeat what I said
yesterday with James and Bruce, But for anybody that's hesitant
about going vi P, please do and check out Bruce's
rant and your rent weight on him on what was
wrong with last week's impact And the Mitchell audio was
amazing and great.

Speaker 4 (15:35):
Thank you both.

Speaker 5 (15:37):
And I guess just some some fallout from the pay
per view questions and you know, tied into RAW. I
did not see the spoilers, so I'm not gonna risk
doing anything with that.

Speaker 7 (15:47):
But if John Seen has joined the.

Speaker 5 (15:50):
Nexus, how can you legitimately play up that he would
sort of be almost I guess, like a slave to
the group or willing to actually do what the group
wanted to do. I know, it's kind of an old stipulation,
you know, like Okay, you're going to join us, But
how does it How can you traditionally make that work
well for you in a storyline sense?

Speaker 2 (16:11):
You know?

Speaker 3 (16:12):
I don't like when they're vague with that kind of thing.
They did that with Raymonds Stereo and the Straight Edge
Society too, where if you lose, you have to join us.
Okay for how long? What does it entail? Are you
a twenty are you a slave twenty four to seven?
Does it just mean they handle your wrestling duties that
kind of I don't like when they're when they're sloppy
like that, or just don't bother to have that attention
to detail. Oh and it's speaking of attention to detail,
I got it every Tuesday, Jason. I think this is

(16:34):
becoming a tradition. Stop showing Michael Cole reading a sheet
of paper at his laptop when he's reading supposedly an
email that he was just sent based on what just
happened in the ring. All right, I got that over with.
I do not understand what that's an unintentional side effect
sound effect. I don't understand why they do that. It's
so they work so hard in so many ways to
tell create an environment where it feels real. It feels like,

(16:57):
you know, people are and then all of a sudden
it's like, oh, GM, just watch what they said, and
you're gonna send an email to Michael Cole And then
they show the cameras reading off a sheet of paper.
It's so stupid and unnecessary, all right, I had to
get that off my shoulders, back to regular skill.

Speaker 5 (17:09):
You don't think it'll turn out to be Michael Colewade.
I mean, I've heard James and Brian you know, discuss that,
and there are a lot of holes that they point out.
But you don't think at the end of the day
they're going to go, oh please, you know, like you
saw me read the sheet of paper. It was me
all along.

Speaker 4 (17:22):
Or like that.

Speaker 3 (17:23):
Every time I criticize it in my raw report, I
always go, I always go, unless Michael Cole is going
to turn out to be the GM. But even so,
you would think that he would like have these things,
like if he's reacting the supposedly what's happening in the ring,
you know, between two wrestlers, and it just happened, he
couldn't he couldn't have his response scripted out. He would
just be faking reading an email. But in reality, he'd

(17:44):
just be making it up. It still doesn't make sense
even if he's the GM. How would you know how
I react? Wrestlers just sit Okay, what was your question,
Larry Michael Cole in that seat?

Speaker 5 (17:54):
How do you effectively book? Yeah, a sort of like
uh yeah, Stockholm situation or you know, kind of that.

Speaker 2 (18:01):
Kind of angle.

Speaker 3 (18:01):
So, yeah, Jason, what do you think of syndrome?

Speaker 4 (18:04):
Well, here's the thing I'll say on call. Even if
he is the anonymous general manager, then it makes everyone watching,
everyone in WWE look stupid for not picking up on
the fact that he had these sheets of paper in
front of him every week and nobody mentioned it. As
far as how you book that, it's it's I mean,
it's one of those things where I don't know that

(18:25):
it's really been done effectively. I'm trying to think of
an angle in the past where it's been logical and
in the way it was conceived, and I mean in
valets that have gone with guys for thirty days or
something like that. But you guys make you make a
really good point that they didn't really lay this out properly,
and they haven't. They haven't explained it. Maybe they will,
but I didn't.

Speaker 3 (18:45):
Did Jason didn't press us have to clean out Chris
Adam's toilets or something.

Speaker 7 (18:48):
Yeah, that's the.

Speaker 4 (18:49):
One that you know, that's the one that always comes
to mind. Was that Jimmy Darvin Chris Adams feud. I
think it was, and you know, I think that was
a thirty day deal. And then they were going to
do something similar I believe with mar Lena and Brian
Pillman before before he passed. But I mean this is different,
and I mean I guess Sena. My guess is that

(19:10):
it's going to be one of those deals where they
order seeing him to do something. He gives them what
they want technically, but it actually works against them almost
like we thought the general managers done in Nexus's favorite
at various times.

Speaker 5 (19:28):
I could only see them with Sina doing that in
a in a cheeky way and not in a and
not in a serious thought provoking way.

Speaker 2 (19:34):
Just to follow up on that.

Speaker 4 (19:36):
One, Yeah, that's that's kind of my concern is how
that they'll take it that direction too. But you know,
maybe you're onto something with a Stockholm thing maybe for
you know, that's what leads to his heel turn somehow,
some ways, everyone thinks it's cheeky, and ultimately Sena ends
up siding with them. I kind of doubt it.

Speaker 3 (19:51):
Or Sena outsmart them by pretending to be their friend
and sets them up for a real big letdown when
he pretends to be on their side, But it's all
the letter put them in a position, let their guard down.
You could write it well, you know, you could have
him look like he's trying to help them, but it
keeps backfiring and he just claims innocence and the fans
are like, hmm, I think he's outsmarting them. It could
be kind of funny, and I guess that goes into

(20:11):
the you know, cheeky category to a degree, But there's
a way to do it. I just I just don't.
I just like, I just like attention to detail. I
just think your wrestling, the wrestling storyline should hold up
to these kind of questions and this kind of scrutiny,
especially in retrospect when we look back and go, how
did that play out? Did that make sense? And you know,
the making it up as we go along, feeling without
respecting the audience and having the attention to detail is

(20:33):
aggravating as a wrestling fan. Lerr anything else for us today?
Good question?

Speaker 8 (20:40):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (20:40):
Sure, hey thanks?

Speaker 2 (20:42):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (20:42):
Also about Chris Jericho, I guess it seems like that
that whole Mini story, maybe that was just about his
contract and you know they kind of hope that we
all forget that there was no real payoffs.

Speaker 3 (20:56):
Yeah, it seemed like they, I mean to not for
job Matthews to not ask Jericho about how can you
deny that you said you would quit if you lost?
And you know all Jared, I mean, Jericho's clever enough,
he could have had to come back to that, but
it made it look like WW was complicit in the
false advertising, basically the false step Jason, do that bug
you much? Oh?

Speaker 4 (21:16):
That really? What annoyed me more was Chris Jericho's post
on Twitter today. He was saying that Internet fan, you know,
the Internet should be smart enough to know that he's
a heel, and therefore he can you know, just back
out of these things. He can reneg on it. It's like, okay,
I think Jim Ross took a subtle jab at Jericho
in his own blog today when he was talking about,

(21:37):
you know, Nexus disbanding if seen a wins and what's
stopping them since they're heels, you know, they really have
to go through with it, And I'm an excellent point.
WWE doesn't want to go down that road. I think
they started a storyline that they didn't have a real
payoff too, so they just abruptly stopped it and now
Jericho's trying to spin it, and so I was really
disappointed by that.

Speaker 3 (21:55):
Yeah, well, you know, Twitter and Facebook and that kind
of thing is giving us windows into wrestlers in ways
we wouldn't have seen before. And if I'm mincing, man,
I tell my wrestlers you can be on Twitter and
Facebook all you want, but talk about movies and books
and family and friends and vacations, but don't start trying
to write or fix or repair wrestling storylines. And if

(22:15):
you're going to, you know or have somebody who Vince
trusts approve of WWE related posts, because I just think
there's too many people going into business for themselves trying
to write their own storylines and talk to fans in
ways that I just think makes the company represents the
company poorly. And yeah, you're right, chasing you go down
a road where a stipulation is that if a heel

(22:36):
says something, it doesn't count well, you know, the announcers,
by the way, need to be in on that. The
announcers need to say then oh, Jericho said that we
can't trust Jericho. Oh, probably lose and won't even won't
even retire. What why even why would anyone even think
that was true? Like the announcers need to be skeptical
on behalf of the fans if that's the rules that
we're playing by. And so no, it's it's annoying.

Speaker 4 (22:56):
But and Josh, you know, from the start, Josh Matthews
was Josh asked him, wants would we take this seriously
when you've done you know, at the beginning, and then
it just stopped and you know, and and Jericho can
claim that that was the plan if that's what he
really wants to do. But Michael Cole was confused by it.
And I know there's a built in joke there, but
I don't This is this is one case where I

(23:17):
don't blame him. And I know this isn't a case
of the Internet overreacting to something because I had a
friend over on Sunday night for the pay per view
who's a casual fan. And you might read the net
once in a while, but he thought the stipulation was
in play. You know, he had no idea.

Speaker 3 (23:30):
Yeah, no, it makes them look bad. It chips away
at the credibility anytime you have a step that fans
take seriously, even if you don't think they should. They did,
and you should be if you're Chris Jericho in WWE,
you should be in a mode of what did we
do wrong? Not Let's try to tell fans why they're
stupid for believing what we told them. All right, let's
go back to the phone line. Hilarry, thanks for the call.
Let's go to Erico two eight one. Please state your

(23:52):
name and where you're from.

Speaker 9 (23:55):
Hey, guys chatting used are during the day?

Speaker 3 (23:57):
Good Jacob here, Primia. What's on your mind?

Speaker 9 (24:00):
Well, I just log on the YouTube of Tena's account
and I watched that r.

Speaker 10 (24:06):
V D PHMA, the thing that was brutal looking popping
form at my screen, and I was saying, oh god,
it was.

Speaker 9 (24:17):
Absolutely wal that thing is like, I mean, anybody could
see that that was a bad proma. It was.

Speaker 8 (24:26):
It was terrible.

Speaker 9 (24:27):
Like he was just like, yeah, well, you know, Marzie
d And you know, I'm so cool, I'm so tough,
you know, I'll be at the pack Zone next week,
and it's like, really, hold on Midway, really yeah, it was.
I was just like, I mean, my thing is like

(24:47):
I can and now it's becoming clear why the w
W It's like, maybe we shouldn't put the title on
this guy. I mean, this dude is a total mark
for himself, total marks, so as you can tell. And
it's just, oh God, I feel like so dumb for
supporting him and volin from them to get this title

(25:08):
for so long. Then they he gets a second chance
after he blew it and nooseis and like he's just like, hey,
you know, I'm here to put my cell phone and
make money, you know, kind of like Hulk Hogan. I
was like, what's your opinion on that?

Speaker 3 (25:23):
Well, I mean Bruce Mitchell and I, I mean, Bruce
was the one who really really was irritated by the
RBD promo. My I guess I didn't have high expectations,
and Bruce made a really good case where I should
have been more upset watching that at the time it
aired than I was. I was upset with him not
hyping it, and I was kind of focused on that.
I thought they really didn't hype it enough. And I

(25:44):
kind of blamed to a degree the presentation the bookers
on the fact that you know, Robb and Dancer World Champion,
the centerpiece of promotion for many, many months leading up
to this big angle, and now he's going to speak
for the first time and addressed this attack, and they
didn't hype it, and I was hung up on that,
And now I kind of get that in retrospect, I
think they were pretty ashamed of it. I mean, I
think they know. I mean, I know they know internally

(26:04):
that it was really bad, and that's the best one
that they pretaped with him. And that's part of the
problem that we're seeing in TNA as a lack of
respect for leadership, and Rob van Dam has a lack
of respect for leadership I think in general and life
to a fault. You know, there's one thing to be
rebellious and be your own guy and all that, but
there comes a time when someone's paying you money, you
kind of have to play the game. You know that
that's part of the deal. They give you enough money

(26:26):
to live independently, wealthy, buy new houses, go on nice vacations.
You kind of, within reason, should be a company man
and do what they say, and I think, you know,
maybe putting some thought into your promo after that huge,
huge angle that they built around you. I think, you know,
just from a pure integrity standpoint, for the money you're collecting,
you kind of show up for work that day and

(26:48):
RVD clearly didn't. And I think that they almost downplayed
the interview because I think they knew how bad it was.
It really undercuts the angle in the storyline. And this
is something Bruce and I talked about at length in
the Bruce Mitchelladio show this weekend on the VIP sites.
Is sometimes you see in TNA, and we saw this
in ww to a lesser extent. Why some people that
we thought should have gotten a push in WWF based

(27:09):
on how they were presented, why they didn't go further,
and why people like Triple H who say what you
will about him, and I've said a lot. I mean,
he's I'm not a big Triple H fan in many areas,
but he's a student of the game. And while I'm
not endorsing him to be booker because I think his
sense of humor and booking ideas are very questionable, what

(27:30):
I do think he has an instinct for is is
this wrestler dedicated to his craft? Is he talking about
it and thinking about it on car rides and before
he goes to sleep at night and in the shower
in the morning or not? Or is he just kind
of And I think RBD is one of those guys
that irritated everybody from the day he showed up when
he was in ECW wrestler and acted too cool for
school to the point where people like Triple H are

(27:51):
able to get a read on his attitude towards the
industry compared to Shamus, for instance, who Triple H liked
a lot because Seamus loved talking about the business and
so to see outside of the confines of WWE without
that strong leadership, some of the bad sides of some
of these wrestlers coming out. Jason, I'll throw to you
for your thoughts on the RVD promo subject.

Speaker 4 (28:09):
It was an idiotic promo. I sat there just shaking
my head at the stupidity all around. I mean, give
very good points on rob. I'm not even gonna add
to that because I think you've made the point. But
how does that make the air? You can't tell me
you can't just get this promo. John and you sit
there and you listen, you play it back and you go, wow,
that's horrible. So let's just call an audible not air

(28:33):
this god aufable promo and they just make it a
surprise when he does return. How does that actually make
the air?

Speaker 3 (28:39):
I agree, I agree it shouldn't have. They should have said,
we said we're gonna have Rob and Damon this week.
But he has turned down an interview request. He is
still convalescing. He is too depressed over losing the world
title that means more to him than anything in the world.
And when we schedule the interview, he said he was
not prepared to go public and talk about it yet.
And we respect that that could have that would have
been better, and airing that that that abomination.

Speaker 4 (29:02):
Now we're this is right up there with the bish
on the other guy on the other side of the thing.
We see him torturing people, which I'm guessing he's not
going to go to jail for in his backstage weird
layer and so we see that, and then we also
get the TNA Live EVENTE video clip where they show
him making faces the campra smiling and signing on a grass.

Speaker 3 (29:23):
He's crazy, Jason he's crazy, he's unpredictable. Yeah, I know
what you mean. No, No, you're right, it's it's what
is wrong with these people? I know. I mean, I
don't think that much.

Speaker 10 (29:32):
No show.

Speaker 3 (29:32):
I was going to save this for the after show, Jason,
but but I want to I have a little, a
little beef with Eric, and maybe we can expand on
it in the after show at the end of the
live show, because I do want to get back to callers.
Eric said in an interview that he misses in WW
that instant feedback of ratings the next the day after
the live show, and he misses the seeing from the
crowd what's working and what isn't. And that's all well

(29:55):
and good. But when I read that, what I read
is I don't trust my my own instincts. I don't
have a feeling for where I want to go, and
I feel like I don't have an ability to lead
the fans where I want to lead them. I don't
think you should book, and I'm not saying Eric books
primarily this way, but I don't think it should be.
I don't and you shouldn't ignore the numbers. I mean

(30:15):
when a week after week after week, Daale Kim and
ausome cong are durwing the biggest ratings. You should maybe
try to sign Gail Kim to a decent contract and
not let her go to WWE. So I'm all for
reading the ratings and looking at what's really working, and
TNA hasn't done that real well historically. But I look
at that, I'm just like, no, No, don't look at
the ratings, don't look at don't even look at the

(30:35):
crowd reaction. Have something in mind that you want to
do and believe in it and execute it well enough
that the fans will follow what you're doing, and you
just don't With TNA. You don't even get the sense
that they're looking at their own program and seeing does
something make sense from one segment to the next, like
the ABYSS example.

Speaker 4 (30:52):
You know, when I think of Eric Bischoff, I think
of the guy who is big concept booking, not a
day to day booker, and also someone who's going to
study the ratings and try to manipulate them artificially. And
not that it's a bad thing, but I mean that
is what he brings more than good booking, you know.
I mean, he's a TV guy and he definitely has

(31:13):
experience with that, So I mean, I guess that's hopefully
why he's looking at the ratings, but that doesn't make
him a good booker.

Speaker 3 (31:21):
Right, And I think you have to be smart enough
to differentiate between what you can learn from a crowd
reaction and ratings and what you can't. And if the
crowd's not reacting to something, that doesn't mean that wrestler's
not over. It might mean the previous six segments were
so horrible they're not involved in the show. Or they
may not react to an angle that was really well
executed because it's the first time an angle's been well

(31:42):
executed in months and months with follow up, and your
crowd that you attract is the type of crowd that's
simply looking to see a high spot and go this
is awesome or chant TNA because you've turned away the
audience through bad booking that would actually appreciate and get
absorbed in a well told story. So if you sit
here and say, well, we want to stay a crowd
react and ratings, well, kind of you need to just
kind of know what you're doing first and do it

(32:04):
for a while and then use that to kind of
adjust the steering wheel a little bit or see if
you know a star is emerging, but you have to
get on the right course before those ratings mean a lot.
And I just don't know that he you know, you
say he's a big vision guy, but you know, and
he would probably say, well, there's a lot of chefs
in the kitchen. Nobody's concept is being executed. But at
some point, let's let's execute a concept and do it
well and then once we're into it, then you can

(32:27):
start adjusting based on ratings and crowd reaction.

Speaker 11 (32:32):
Need an extra dose of positivity in your wrestling podcasts,
will come join me Alan fourrel Over in the Progress
Paradise at pede toorch vip as we mosk on the
bright side of wrestling and focus on some of the
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(32:53):
and the paradise too, and we've done fun historical shows
such as the We Love Liger series celebrating the glorious
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We Love Variety and you can expect lots of it
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(33:16):
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our ad free VIP mobile site. See you in the Paradise.

Speaker 3 (33:37):
Anyway, Jay, Any any other quick comments before we move
out of the next caller?

Speaker 9 (33:42):
Yes, one quick follow up. You know, you know when
TMA didn't add that impact a couple of weeks ago
and they had that big interview thing with Dixie Potter,
I think Dixie kind of let us know. She she
tried to play it with the total options, but she let
us know what you made that statement about, you know,
Hulk Hogan just coming in for a big payday. She

(34:02):
she kind of let us know that, Hey, that's what
it is, because everything she was saying was the opposite
of the truth. Like Poko was coming in for a
quick payday, and when RVD was first coming in, she
wasn't sure his heart was into it, but he's proven
that it is. Everything she was saying is the polar opposite.
So I think she's she she knows, but she's cunning

(34:24):
a blind eye because, like you guys said, getting your
ego show, it's a I can only imagine what that fight.

Speaker 12 (34:31):
Wow, you're a this big TV star, you have such
a great presence.

Speaker 9 (34:35):
She knows what stuff. And I remember when RVD first
had his title shot against Triplation know too. RVD was
kind of mocking Tribulation. Triblation cut a real honest pomo
on him, talking about his heart not.

Speaker 10 (34:49):
Really being in the business.

Speaker 9 (34:51):
And it's so funny that eight years later, it's like,
now the majority of the fantasy Wow, you know he
wasn't just holding him down. A lot of things rd
did showed himself down because when he first like he's
a big chance. As soon as he got over there,
I mean, he lost every match. And now I can
see why they did it. I can totally see. But

(35:13):
I had one.

Speaker 12 (35:14):
Question before I go, what's Triple A's.

Speaker 9 (35:16):
Opinion on Kurt ang On and Chris Jericho because they
seem to have been more dedicated. I was told what
he thought about those.

Speaker 3 (35:23):
Two in particularly good question, Jayson, you want to take that, boy, I.

Speaker 4 (35:29):
Know what Triple AS's opinion is on those two guys.
I mean, he certainly butted heads with Jericho at times. Yeah,
you know, I'm guessing like anyone else, he respects Angle
as a worker, but knows that there's some other issues
at play that would probably prevent him from being a good,
strong worker for WWE with that schedule.

Speaker 2 (35:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (35:52):
I think I think it is pretty well known that
Triple As in Jericho, but it had so As you said, Jason,
I mean that they I think it was more personality
based than it was. I don't respect your commitment to
the business. I have heard many stories over the years
of Jericho not you know, having an inflated, an inflated
impression of how good he is or how how much

(36:12):
he has to learn from anybody else telling him anything,
including people who have as much or more experience as him.
And it's irked people. You know, there's there and you
can come up with your own theory, you know, for why.
But he's just he's not been the type of guy
who's been a real collaborator with certain other strong personalities.
Because Jericho's a strong personality and not to psychoanalyze it
too much because I don't have much more depth beyond
that other than to say, definitely, Jericho Triple Ations had

(36:35):
kind of agreed at one point to to keep their
distance from each other and not cross paths, And when
people did see Tripleation Jericho cross paths, that seemed like
Jericho came out on the losing end of the political power.
As far as Kurt Angle goes, Yeah, I think I
think Triple Ah respected Angles tremendously as a worker. But
you know, when you're around Kurt for a while, you
stop believing just about anything he says, not because he's

(36:56):
a liar, just because he's so he has no editor,
and he's so enthusiastic and while sagerate and you know,
and just talk without regard for what he might say
completely different two days later. So yeah, but I yeah,
both of them are more dedicated than RVD, and I
think Triple each in a second would rank Jericho and
Angle ahead of RVD on just about any kind of
list of any kind of criteria as far as respecting

(37:16):
them as wrestlers. We're just past the midpoint of the show.
You are listening to the PW torch live cast. I
am Wade Keller, hosts of the show along with Jason
Powell of Pro Wrestling dot Net. I think we're close
to breaking a record on how many people we have
just listening to the show on the phone lines. So
thanks to everybody for your support and the continued growth

(37:37):
of the show. Keep spreading the word. I do want
to take a moment here before I forget to give
a quick plug to the MMA Torch live cast, which
is tonight. You can go to blog talk radio dot
com slash MMA torch, that's blogtock radio dot com slash
MMA torch to listen to it live tonight, or it's
a ninety minute show live tonight, or if you're hearing
this on delay through iTunes or at blogtok radio and

(37:59):
you I have a chance to listen to it live,
go ahead to blog talk radio dot com slash MMA
torch and listen to it in the archives, or subscribe
to it in iTunes by searching MMA Torch. Tonight, the
CEO of Bellator Fighting, Jorn Redney, is going to be
live with Jamie Pennock, Matt Pelke, and Rich Hanson. The
three hosts of the show also UFC lightweight Jacob Volkman

(38:20):
will be live taking your calls on tonight's show. Definitely
worth going out of your way if you're an MMA
fan to listen to this good roundtable discussions with a
similar tone covering MMA that we do here on PW Torch.
Also tons of headlines today at MMA Torch. We got
UFC papered you coming up on Saturday. Miracle Crowcop medically
cleared to fight against frankmir on Saturday. That was at

(38:44):
issue due to a training accident that involved his an
injury to his eye, but he has been medically cleared.
Also chail Sonen and the steroid test failure. Tons of
updates right now at MMA torch dot com updating that story,
tons of movement on that front, and ESPN's MMA Live
will have the first I Believe exclusive one on one

(39:05):
with chilson And speaking about his one year suspension for
a steroid failure which he has now filed the protest
For other headlines. Also lots of good stuff at MMA
Torch today. If you're an MMA fan, be sure to
download the free app on your iPhone or your droid
phone or visit it on the web at mmatorch dot
com Speaking of plugs, Jason, give a quick plug to

(39:25):
your site and also talk about your VFP membership and
what people what incentive people have to sign up for
a membership.

Speaker 4 (39:32):
This week, as truly, you mentioned next week's wrong spoilers.
I'm not going to get into that here, but if
you're looking for a detailed report on that show, head
over to Pro Wrestling dot Net check out the must
read section. Had a great correspondent last night who passed
along a ton of details on everything that plays out
on next week's WWE raw show. Also have a spoiler
free preview if you just want to know what the

(39:53):
match lineup is. And then as far as the membership
side goes, it's an AD free version of the site,
break a lot of news on that side before it
gets before it gets published on the ad based version
of the site. Also have a member's forum with a
great group of people will be in there tonight having
fun during the NXT television show. We don't take it
too seriously. It's a Tuesday's kind of uncensored night and

(40:14):
we just mocked the hell out of it basically because well, frankly,
it deserves it. And also a ton of audio over
there a lot of interviews, and I go through the
same spiel week in and week out, it seems like.
So it's the ad based version of the site, and
you can access it for as little as five dollars
and fifty cents a month if you take the annual option,
and you can find all the details at pro wrestling

(40:36):
dot Net.

Speaker 3 (40:38):
Very good. Let's go back to the full lines and
begin at Eric code six five one. Thanks for calling.
Please state your name and where you're from.

Speaker 13 (40:45):
Hey, guys, this is Mike from Bodray. How you doing today?

Speaker 3 (40:48):
Good mind? Good hear for you. What's on your mind today?

Speaker 13 (40:50):
Yeah? Well, I thought, well, I was pretty good last night.
I think read the spoilers or anything. But is it
safe to say that we're probably going to have an
episode next week though having to go home show since
everybody be tired.

Speaker 3 (41:04):
I don't know, and I don't want to I want
to be excited about next week' show, so I'm going
to try to avoid spoilers. Yeah, yeah, I mean it's
it's a big show. I mean, I don't remember the
last time that, if ever, they've had a two week
gap between pay per views and had to put all
their creative efforts for both raws into one night of pavings.
I mean that you. I mean, if you were betting man,
you'd say it would be a letdown of a show.

(41:25):
But maybe they were all energized coming out of the
pay per view and excited about not having to do
a show next week, and we'll get two killer shows,
so we'll we'll see next Monday.

Speaker 8 (41:35):
Mm hmm.

Speaker 13 (41:36):
Well I hope so too.

Speaker 2 (41:38):
I'm thinking.

Speaker 13 (41:42):
We seem to be getting to a place now with
this GM where they I think they must know who
it is when the pats, I don't think you've thought
that because of what Edge and Jericho or how they're reacting.
I'm playing off the GM. Do you see maybe Edge
somehow doing so flush that he goes back to SmackDown
to beef up that roster, going to the Side Drive premiere.

(42:04):
And is it possible Jericho might be the GM because
it would give him time to be off the road,
He wouldn't have to be at ROD every week and
he could still be making decisions. And he said he
knew who the GM was Jericho last, And I said,
or he had the IP address or whatever. But the
GM is going to give him what he wants because

(42:26):
he knows, and that would just be easy, Oh I'm
the GM, And it would also play into him kind
of making fun of Steve Austin in the Rock and McMahon.
That's kind of Jerich Cole.

Speaker 2 (42:40):
Like I guess you would say.

Speaker 8 (42:42):
I mean, I think it's a slim chance, but is
there a chance?

Speaker 3 (42:44):
You think interesting theory, Jason, what do you think of that?

Speaker 4 (42:48):
I mean, I think it's possible with only because we
know Jericho is going to take some time away, whether
you know it's a permanent vacation and he goes to
TNA or he just goes on tour and does his
Pozi thing and come back. I think if it's the
latter scenario, that would be one interesting way for him
to return is to say he's been the general manager
all along. We know he's had on a get off

(43:10):
again issues with Edge, and so they could play up
on that that he was still messing with Edge even
though they had supposedly patched up their differences. The GM.
I also remember the GM saying at one time that
he never liked Brett Hart, so you know Jericho's had
his issue with Brett. I still think it's probably triple

(43:32):
h but hard to say at this point. I think
you could pretty much make a compelling argument for oh
ninety percent of the WWE roster at this point if
you wanted to. And I'm just kind of letting it
play out right now because I just don't get the
sense that there's real light at the end of the
tunnel that they're setting up something big for down the road.
The other scenario on Edge is that he gets too

(43:52):
close to figuring out who the GM is and so
the GM trades him to smack down.

Speaker 3 (43:58):
Anything else.

Speaker 2 (43:59):
Mike, one quick question.

Speaker 13 (44:03):
I suppose the feud ended on Sunday, but if you
were booking on Speca, who would you have Kobe Kingston
adults they could move on to and I'll hang up
and listen.

Speaker 3 (44:12):
Thank you, Wow man. I mean I like both of them,
Kofe a little bit more than Dolf right now, based
on the work that he's been doing. What do you think, Jason,
any feuds come to mind that makes sense? I mean,
things could be shaken up with the sci fi thing
in terms of talent, so you know, you can't get
too married to looking at only one roster for those guys.

Speaker 4 (44:34):
Yeah, exactly. I do think we're going to see a
shake up here. I think it's going to be an
interesting couple of weeks with Kofe. I mean, I still
don't rule out that this that we've seen the end
of this program. It just keeps dragging on Kofi. I'd
like to see him somehow move into that upper mix,
but there's just not that much of an upper mix.
Maybe he'd be I was gonna say, maybe he'd be

(44:55):
a decent guy for albertodel Rio, but I think Kofe
kind of needs someone to guide him at times through matches.
Maybe del Rio is at that point, he's been around
long enough where he's not gonna need as much help
as Kofe would. But with Dolph, you know, I'll make
my monthly pitch why not MVP. Why not do something
with that guy and let him chase that title for

(45:16):
a little while.

Speaker 3 (45:17):
Yeah, yeah, that works. Yeah, I think. I mean they're
both worth investing in. And you know, you look at
the depth chart right now, Dolph and Kofi are important
players right now. In two three years. You need them
to be to be portrayed as drawn cards. You need
them to be in a position to be taken seriously
and I think they should be protected. I'd like to
see Dolph rely a little bit less on headlocks and
chinlocks when his match is going to go longer than

(45:39):
three minutes. But there's a lot that I like about
him too, And I think there's a lot of potentially
even with a Vicky Dolph pairing, there's a fun dynamic
there that's that's different than what we've seen. I don't
know that they're playing it up ideally at this point,
but and I'm a big fan of Kofe too. I
you know, whatever they think he's not ready for, get
him ready for it, and get him in there, because
I think he is a potential really big star for

(46:02):
WWE if they if he and they play their cards right.

Speaker 1 (46:07):
You can support us on Patreon and get these shows
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Weight Keller Prossing post shows and the PW Torch daily
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(46:29):
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Speaker 3 (46:38):
All right, back to the phone mind. If you want
to get in line on the phone banks, We've got
four or five people on hold still, but you can
be next in line after that the number six four
six seven two one nine A two eight. That's six
four six seven to one nine A two. Wait, don't forget.
We're on Facebook, Facebook dot com, slash pwww torch Live
cast and also Twitter dot com slash pw torch Live Cast.

(47:00):
Back to the phone lines, area code eight sixty five.
You're on the show. Please state your name and where
you're from. It's sixty five.

Speaker 2 (47:07):
Yep.

Speaker 3 (47:07):
Now you're live. Go ahead.

Speaker 6 (47:09):
This is Richard from Tennessee.

Speaker 3 (47:11):
Hey, Richard, thanks for calling. What's on your mind?

Speaker 8 (47:14):
Hey?

Speaker 6 (47:15):
I was just wondering.

Speaker 9 (47:16):
I'm a big TNA fan, which has been really difficult
for us year or so, but if you guys are booking,
who would you put as the change season right now?

Speaker 3 (47:28):
Of of TNA, I samo Joe probably. I mean, I'm
a fan of SMO Joe and I think to differentiate
themselves from WWE. I think he present the type of
matches that that that I think would differentiate them from
the WWE style. So he jumps out as a real
top contender. He needed to be rehabbed a little bit.
I think they made some strides in getting him away

(47:49):
from the hanging people upside down and torturing them and
wearing face pain and all that stuff that really I
think derailed him into kind of something that just didn't
really seem genuine. There's some there's some other decent candidate, Jason.
What you jump in and then I'll jump back.

Speaker 4 (48:03):
Yeah, I mean, Joe's the guy that does stand out
to me. Maybe you do some kind of a chase
program with him, and I mean it's been done before,
but it wasn't done to perfection. Maybe something with he
and kurd Angle. Maybe it's been long enough where you
go back to that program and let them feued over
the title. At least you know you're gonna get good
matches and then you know there's great programs waiting for
Joe with Rob Van Dam and Jeff Hardy. He's the

(48:25):
guy that really does jump out despite the fact that
they've tried, you know, indirectly attempted to kill him off
so many times with the giant Rambo knife and the
face paint and the bad weather jacket and the kidnapping
angle and all the silly things they've done.

Speaker 3 (48:39):
With them the top it, Jason, I blocked those out
of my mind.

Speaker 4 (48:42):
Well, I think they're going to bring back the kidnapping
angle and try to say that it was, you know,
part of the day storyline all along, to show just
how deep this runs. But you know, I mean that
he is someone that I still think they can salvage,
just because the fans still, you know, react to what
he does despite all those factors that are working against him,
And that really shows you that you have something special

(49:04):
when you can screw up a guy that badly and
the fans still care about him as much as they do.

Speaker 3 (49:09):
Yeah, Richard, who do you want to see a champion?
Who would you pick? Who's on your list?

Speaker 6 (49:14):
Samo Joe?

Speaker 9 (49:15):
He's my favorite, and I think and like like Jason said,
I mean, they pretty much trash him and he's still popular.

Speaker 3 (49:23):
So yeah, I mean I like Desmond Wolf, but there's
you know, medical issues and concussion concerns and that type
of thing with him, you know, from what I hear
behind the scenes. He's actually like considered one of the
top three workers in that company by his peers, But
he carries himself with a lot of insecurity and people
can't quite figure out why. And I think that actually
kind of hurts his upward mobility because I think management

(49:44):
sees a wrestler who's not as sure of himself as
even they are, and they wonder if they can really
depend on him. I think Kurt Angle is great, but
do you do you really want to put that kind
of weight on the shoulders of somebody with his track
record and his issues with pain pills that led Vincig
Manta send him, you know, packing when he was from
a workers standpoint, fantastic. But he's always a candidate if
you are really careful with how you present him and

(50:06):
maybe limit his work. Mister Anderson just hasn't delivered in
the ring yet, matches that I think people would pay
to seat on pay per view at a level that
TNA needs to deliver in order to I mean, maybe
they don't care about pay per view, and if they don't,
then so be it. But I'm just not sure he's
he's the all around total package they need him to
be at this point, Jeff Hardy and Rob Van Dam
we've talked about their issues, so you know, Brutus Magnus,

(50:28):
I love his look. I like the way he carries himself.
I think he's young. There's great upside, but is he
really ready for that kind of weight on his Shoulder's
probably not. But I do like the idea of TNA
getting really behind somebody who's who's their guy. But isn't
you know, I just I don't buy Aj in his
role as a heel, as as the type of person
who can get you to the next level. You know,

(50:50):
even as a babyfac there's issues there. Matt Morgan, if
he felt like he had he had come along and
and and I think as a character he has, maybe
there's there's potential to just say, all right, let's let's
give him a shot for a little while and make
sure he's in there with guys who can really help
help him have the types of matches that TNA needs
to have on pay per view. But you can talk
yourself in circles that you end up coming back to
Joe as the guy who probably has the most going

(51:12):
for him, And you know, you can't deny that the
audience Tena is trying to reach likes Joe. He gets
a reaction that you know, if air Quon's talk about
fan reaction being important to him, you can't be selective
with it. The guy who gets the best reaction at
house shows and even in the Impact Zone, when Joe
is allowed to be Joe and he's not dragged down
by some crazy, stupid storyline, it's Joe. He's the guy

(51:34):
that fans take too, you know, they they I think
fans take pride in sharing for somebody who's tough but different.
He doesn't look like the mold. He breaks the mold.
And I think there's people in TNA who think, you know,
we can't have a guy who looks like that as
our champion. And I just don't think they get it.
I just don't think they get it. Richard. Thanks for call.
We're gonna keep going through calls here and go to

(51:55):
three two three. You're on the live cast. Please space
your name and where you're from.

Speaker 2 (52:00):
Hi.

Speaker 14 (52:00):
I'm Jack from Hollywood.

Speaker 3 (52:02):
Hey Jack, good hear from me.

Speaker 14 (52:03):
Okay, my question is requirding maybe the Missus push and
possibly a storyline from Honestly, do you think the w
W will pull a storyline like this where the Miss
holds the money in the bank till let's say the
Royal I mean, you know, he'll hold it to Wrestlemanium,
but he might win the Royal Rumble. So he has

(52:25):
this sort of like insurance basket and fell it as
like he has two tile shots and he'll get his
title match at Mania wins and at the same night
in an indirect way to merge the titles, cashing money
in the back on the on the other champions at
the time, and where these we see that as a
possibility as a maybe indirectly unifying the titles. That was

(52:48):
sort of like how Jerich will be tossed.

Speaker 3 (52:50):
And rocked Jason some good, uh some A lot of
creative thoughts from callers today. That's another creative one. I
don't know. I don't know that. I don't think WWE
looks at and Miss is somebody who's going to be
the first unified champion. He's getting a great push and
he's delivering and more and more people are noticing him.
I thought last night was another great night for him.

(53:10):
He is really a right I mean, I bet he
wins the Rising Star of the Year Award. In the
PW Towards Reader poll. I haven't thought it through to
know who the other top candidates are, but he'll certainly
be in the mix and probably win. So yeah, I mean,
but no, I don't think they're gonna I don't think
they see Miss as a guy that they would have
come out of WrestleMania unifying the titles. But it's a
fun storyline, and that's you know, if they WWE has

(53:33):
some some gimmicks that they've worked hard to build up
and really add credibility, which is why the whole Jerichle
thing and backing out of Histip because he's a heel
when he lies chips away at the value of what
the money in the bank means and what the world
rumble means and that type of thing. Jason, your thoughts on.

Speaker 4 (53:49):
That, you know, if there's only going to be one
world title come wrestle Mania time, I don't know that
they see miss as a guy ready to even put
in that match to sell that pay per view. That's
that's one of the suries of having two titles, is that,
you know, I think Miss is definitely the you know,
a huge star for that company, and I just don't
know that Vince sees him. If there's one world title

(54:11):
is is that going to be your true marquee matchup?
Is Miss against someone else? I don't know that he's
ready for that just yet, but if you have two titles,
well then you know there's a place for Miss in
a world title match and it's not going to seem
on a place and you can you know, if they're
worried about him being a major drawing card for that
pay per view only you just shift the focus a

(54:33):
little bit to the other world title match and really
beef that one up to make that your true marquee matchup.

Speaker 3 (54:40):
Final? Uh, any final thoughts Jack before we move on? No,
that's a great thanks? What thanks? Just remindered everybody listening
be sure to visit on a daily basis, in fact,
several times a day, in fact, couple of times an hour.
It would be great. Pw torch dot com and Jason
your site Pro wrestling dot net breaking news. The features

(55:01):
top top level writers every day. Check out pw torch
dot com and Progressing dot Net both on the web
and on your iPhone or droid phone. There are apps
for both. Just search pro Wrestling or PW torch to
find them in the iTunes store or the Android marketplace.
Ratings just in for last night's Rod Jason, pretty scary
numbers for WWE. They did a two point eight rating.

(55:25):
Ouch yeah, big time out. Really, I think mood changing
and devastating coming out of a pay per view with
Randy Orton winning the title, that's a uh, that's a
big deal. The Dancing with the Stars debut last night.
Some people might say, ah, come on, there's not gonna
be a big crossover audience there, but you know, you

(55:45):
think about it, Jersey Shore does good numbers with the
raw demographic that you know that Jersey Shore takes away
from TNA's demographic too. When they have a big show
or a season premiere. There's a real there's a real link,
a correlation when a certain demographic that Jersey Shore is
strong goes up and their head to head with Impact
Impact goes down in that same demo. So there seems
to be something there and Mike, the situation was on

(56:07):
Dancing with the Stars last night, so that combined with
Monday Night Football and History Channels Pond Stars, which is
similar to Jersey Shore on that there's a real correlation
between the demos and that going up and wrestling going down.
A lot of reasons for Raw to go down, but
to an through a pay per view and with the
matches that they're presenting and the stars are featuring, that's

(56:28):
a real concern, Jason, what do you think?

Speaker 4 (56:30):
Well, And you also have to throw in NBC's original
programming last night, the event got a pretty big push.
That was one of their big new shows. And then
I know there was my buddy Brian Fritz from Between
the Ropes dot Com was nice enough to share a
video of apparently two women made out on some CBS
comedy last night. I can't believe HLA has finally made

(56:52):
its way to CBS, of all places.

Speaker 3 (56:57):
One stat on Raw it was despite the really allows
you rating, just to show how strong Raw is in general,
it was still the fourth most watched show on cable
last night, just behind Monday Night Football and Pond Stars
in the most important demographic categories. But I think last year,
on September twenty first, when the new fall season began
on the networks, Row did a three point four. So

(57:18):
this is a drop of you know, about eighteen percent.
Just doing the math in my head, roughly speaking, that's
a really big drop, really big area concern, and WWE
has reason to be concerned, you know, if they ever
lose and I mean it's just one week rating, but
if they ever lose that that top ten perennial top
ten rating and where they can really deliver with USA network,

(57:40):
it's a big blow to the wrestling industry. It's a
big blow to wrestler salaries because USA is what drives
pay per view and house shows. It's a great, prestigious,
top level network to be on. Row needs to deliver.
But I don't know that there's a real short term
answer to fix this, because it's not like they're holding
back on the stars. And I really don't know that
crowding a bunch of more top stars from SmackDown on

(58:01):
Raw every week is going to make a difference either,
because what WWE needs to be doing is building up
young stars. And if you bring Undertaker and Raymistereo, you,
if you bring over SmackDown's top wrestlers and crowd them
into Rows two hours, you're doing a short term move
at the expense of building up stars in the long run.
So something we'll talk more about in the after show. Jason,

(58:21):
let's go back to the phone lines and go to
aera code four one two. Thanks for holding. Please state
your name and where you're from. Sey guys, it's cheating Pistopher. Hey,
you guys been good. Good here for you. What's on
your mind today? Yeah, I good to hear.

Speaker 2 (58:34):
From you, guys.

Speaker 15 (58:35):
I was just agreeing with you guys about that two
pointing number. That is a very very scary number. I mean,
you think about all the things that have happened and everything.
I mean, this is just file to think that they
would do a two point eight one night like that
when you think they would do maybe at three to
zero or a three one. So, I mean, I know
if you've done you were talking about the mis earlier.
I mean the reason why I think everyone is so
high in the miz right now obviously because Michael Cole

(58:57):
loves to suck.

Speaker 6 (58:57):
The miss any chancey kids.

Speaker 15 (58:59):
I mean, it seems like Michael Cole is the biggest
toolbox and Jason you'll probably greatness too. I mean, he
just heals on everyone. It seems like more and more,
and I think, wwe just better realize that this guy
is a total.

Speaker 6 (59:10):
Jackass and ought to get off the air.

Speaker 15 (59:12):
While you can't.

Speaker 3 (59:12):
What do you guys think, Jayson take that one?

Speaker 4 (59:15):
Man, I gotta say I disagree. I'm enjoying Michael Cole
more right now than I ever have, even even when
he was doing decent work with Jbell as his sidekack
kick on SmackDown and calling it straight. This is fun
to me. I actually pay attention to what he and
Jerry Lawler say. And you know it's not intentional, but
when you cover all the hours of wrestling that we do,

(59:36):
sometimes you tend to just zone out the announcers when
they're just you know, doing their same old dick and
Jerry Lawler's telling his you know, cracking his jokes from
that nineteen eighty five joke book that he has. This
I actually, yeah, yeah, probably, I mean, but this actually
I'm listening to see what Michael Cole has to say.
I find an entertaining The NXT thing I didn't find entertaining,

(59:57):
but I'm raw I'm actually getting a kick out.

Speaker 2 (59:59):
Of it right now.

Speaker 3 (01:00:00):
Yeah, I enjoy Michael Cole. I just want. I mean,
I think he's trying to get the kind of reaction
JD that he gets out of you, So I think
there's success there I'm not in favor in principle, in
a wrestling announcer who's supposed to tell you this match
on pay per view is one you should get. The
WWE title is the most prestigious title in the industry,
and this person is somebody that you should cheer in

(01:00:22):
this one. And so I'm not in favor of having
the play by plague I play a heel role. I
think it's just a dangerous road to go down because
you need that announcer to have that bond and that
trust with the viewers to sell them on things. So
I think they're I think, well, Michael Cole is entertaining
in the character. I think it's it's it's a dangerous
It's a dangerous approach to take with your lead announcer. Yeah,

(01:00:43):
Jerry Lewler's trying to be the reason, the reasonable person
at the announced table, apologizing for Michael Cole and that
type of thing. I just hope they have something in
mind that makes it all makes sense where you look
back and you go, oh, okay, all along, and I
congratulate them for keeping a secret all along. They wanted
to get Jim Ross back and Michael Cole behind the
scenes was really bored calling wrestling and he wanted to

(01:01:04):
become a heel, and so we've been inching our way
into that and now he's going to be this a
top heel who fans are going to pay us hee
get beat up. And this was just the way to
get Jim Ross back into the broadcast booth. If that's
where they're going, fine, but if it's not having your
lead announcer, no matter how entertaining, how successfully entertaining he is,
or how aggravating he is to some viewers, and I

(01:01:25):
think a good heat generating way, you got to have
a lead announcer that fans trust as kind of the
moral compass with all the controversy and cast going around,
So that would be where I would I would question
what they were doing.

Speaker 2 (01:01:38):
JD.

Speaker 3 (01:01:38):
Thanks for the call. Please call again later in the week.

Speaker 16 (01:01:45):
In twenty twelve, NXT transitioned into the developmental system and
ultimately the brand you see today. On the Torch VIP
podcast NXT eight years Back, we'll be taking a weekly
look at this page in NXT's early history.

Speaker 17 (01:02:00):
Joined Kelly Wells and me Tom Stout from p WT
Talks NXT every Saturday.

Speaker 6 (01:02:04):
As we go eight years back to the.

Speaker 17 (01:02:06):
Day to track NXT's rising talents and why they did
or didn't work out exclusively for PW Torch VIP members.

Speaker 3 (01:02:15):
Let's go now to the next caller in our final
few minutes here eight six spy, thanks for calling. Please
state your name and where you're from.

Speaker 18 (01:02:22):
Thanks coming on guys, Steve Ver from Tennessee.

Speaker 3 (01:02:25):
Stephen, good to hear from you. What's on your mind today?

Speaker 6 (01:02:29):
I said, a real quick question honestly.

Speaker 18 (01:02:31):
Now it's a hell of a self payer review coming up.
I just kind of think here's on you guys have
thoughts on this. You know, the hell myself back in
the day was supposed to be the most brutal match
that W had to offer, you know, the match it
said on all the scores and.

Speaker 12 (01:02:42):
All this stuff.

Speaker 18 (01:02:43):
Well, now with WW go on to a you know,
a PG rating, obviously it's going to be intergroll. Let's blood,
it's less violin and that's kind of want to what
do you guys think a that does.

Speaker 6 (01:02:52):
For the cell And I just started it being the
most brutal match in.

Speaker 18 (01:02:54):
Day ue and then these thig there's a way that
you can't have the blood and violence can still kind
of keep it in a PG manner or at least
or at least feelings you know, Warren, kids of you
know one, parents of kids like you know, seven years
or so.

Speaker 3 (01:03:07):
Not to get the pay per view, Jason, I think
there's a way to utilize the HIEC structure and not
have blood and you know, a lot of blood and
excessive gore. I think there's a way to use the
structure to tell a story and use it as you know,
an object to climb on and bounce off of and
interact with without necessarily grinding someone's skull into it and
shredding skin. But there's something consistently and recurringly contradictory about

(01:03:33):
WWE trying to be PG considering the nature of the
form of entertainment they present.

Speaker 4 (01:03:39):
Yeah, I mean we have Helena Shell, and I assume
we're going to have you know, the Canaan Undertaker fighting
over who's the Devil's favorite Gamon on a PG pay
per view. I know, you know, boy, if there was
ever going to be a time where somebody pulled the
Brett Hart and was told not to blade yet, guy
Creative and Schnuck going in Helena Shell is the place
to do it. I just it's not completely necessary. And

(01:04:02):
I think as time goes on and we just become
accustomed I've seeing but in the match, it's going to
become routine. But I remember last year it still just
felt like, Wow, you're I'm gonna I want to sell
pay per view and there's no blood. So I'm with
the caller on that, I want to see some blood
on that show.

Speaker 3 (01:04:17):
Yeah, all right, let's try to get in one or
two more calls here in the final minute or two, five,
five nine. Thanks for calling. Please state your name and
where you're from.

Speaker 10 (01:04:25):
Hey, this is step of California.

Speaker 3 (01:04:27):
Hey, Steve, thanks for calling. Give us a quick question
or comment.

Speaker 12 (01:04:31):
Actually, you kind of hit on it already.

Speaker 2 (01:04:33):
I was just gonna ask, has there ever in the
history of rest been a heel play by play guys?

Speaker 3 (01:04:41):
Trying to think of of if there has been a
full fledged play by play guy. Nothing that comes to
mind to right away. Jason Aathan comes to mind right away.

Speaker 4 (01:04:49):
For you, Uh, Tony Shiavanni in the last couple of years,
but he wasn't really trying to be a heel. No,
I can't think of one either. I mean, you made
a great point about that the announcer doesney credibility, and
as much as I am in entertained by Michael Cole's antics,
helps me nice if each scale it down to, you know,
just having hatred of Daniel Bryant, and then you can
shock it up to being just a you know, they
just don't mesh well, and Michael Cole calls the rest

(01:05:12):
of it's straight. That would be fine with me, and
I'd give up Michael Cole for Jim Ross and a heartbeat.

Speaker 3 (01:05:17):
Steve, thanks for call. Sorry to cut you so short.
Call again later in the week and we'll have more
time for you real quick. Seven eighty six. Give us
something to talk about in the after show with a
ten second question or comment.

Speaker 6 (01:05:26):
Second, Yeah, I think is great.

Speaker 9 (01:05:30):
What do you think about the women's Tylden?

Speaker 3 (01:05:33):
No good, Thanks for your question. That it's all we
got time for until tomorrow on behalf of Jason Paul
wad Keller, thanking you for listening. All right, VIP members,
Thank you, goodbye, Mber, thanks for holding on. We're now

(01:05:54):
in the VIP after show portion of the program. Jason
unifying the women's titles. I mean it's kind of part
of a larger, larger movement that Vincent Mann is entertaining
and executing to a certain extent, which is getting unifying
the titles. Have you heard as that would also include
the US and the Icy title being merged or is
it just the tag teams emerged now the women's titles emerged,

(01:06:17):
and maybe next will be the World Heavyweights, you.

Speaker 4 (01:06:19):
Know, I don't know. I just keep hearing that Vince
at some points is talking every you know, he'd like
to have it done by you know, within thirty days,
and then people kind of have to calm him down
and say, we need to do this right, you know,
let's save it for WrestleMania and make a big fuss
over it. So I don't know if intercondinal us is
in there, and I still I mean, it's it's Vince McMahon.

(01:06:42):
He could wake up tomorrow and go, wow, that was
a dumb idea, forget it and just change his mind completely.
I did get a kick out of Mickey James kind
of sounding off on the fact that they decided to
get rid of the WWE Women's Championship and keep the
Devas version of the championship, and.

Speaker 3 (01:06:57):
I agree with her.

Speaker 4 (01:06:58):
I mean, it's not a huge deal. And there's not
going to be big outcry because frankly, people don't care
about women's wrestling right now is or at least as
far as WWE is concerned. But that belt had some history,
that belt had some lineage, and the deevs. Championship just
looks tacky. And I don't know why they made that decision.
I really think it was not a game changing moment

(01:07:18):
or anything, But I don't know why they would go
that route.

Speaker 3 (01:07:21):
It's the idea of having titles on each brand made sense.
I expanding, you know, to have a women's title on
both brands at least gave the women a purpose on
each brand. You know, what are we fighting over? Well,
in theory, pro wrestling promoters should create a circumstance where
everybody's fighting for a title. You know, that's that's the
unquestioned goal that everybody on your show should have. And

(01:07:43):
so having two women's titles, I wasn't enthusiastic about it
because it's just one more title. But if you're going
to do it and expand the women's division you think
you can draw, that's fine. But if all you're going
to do is feature women coming out and having forty
five second matches or minute and a half matches. Just
don't even have them as wrestlers. Have them as the
LA's as managers, as have them hold up ring cards

(01:08:03):
and say this match has a twenty minute time limit
and hold up a twenty I don't care if you
feel you need to get women on your TV show
for sex appeal. Don't have pretend wrestlers going out there
and embarrassing themselves in ninety second matches and not getting
to really show that they have any kind of skill set.
But if you're gonna have women wrestlers and get serious
about it, I think you have to have two titles.

(01:08:23):
So I don't know if he's moving towards trying to
just merge all the rosters once again, and since SmackDown's
not going to be on broadcast television anymore, he's losing
enthusiasm for it. I mean, have you, Jason, have you
heard rumblings or are you strongly against just dropping the
whole brand split approach and going back to the way

(01:08:44):
things were in the nineties.

Speaker 4 (01:08:45):
I am against it. I think that then they get
too caught up. I just don't trust them to have
the terms. I'm thinking of the word is they just
wouldn't do it through. They wouldn't do it in a
way that would benefit the younger wrestlers, And I think
you would get they would burn you out on the
John Cenas and the Undertakers and all the usual suspects,

(01:09:07):
all the main event guys that would be showing up
on both shows. And I just don't have faith in
them that they'd really find a way to limit how
much they overexpose that talent and just shortchange some of
the undercar talent that really needs good quality television time
if all of a sudden, they were able to put Undertaker,
for instance, on both shows. So I'm all for keeping

(01:09:27):
the brand split in play. As far as the title
situation goes with the women, yeah, I mean you only
need one women's title, but it should definitely go between
the two shows. Even though I have no interest in
watching Michelle McCool popping up two nights a week the
world title. Again, I just go back to it's a
nice tool to have when you have two title matches

(01:09:50):
to promote on pay per view. If there was a
big outcry for it, I would understand, But this is
just being done on Vince's whim. You know, I don't
really get the sense that, boy, if all of a
sudden there's only one champion, people are gonna start watching
wrestling more.

Speaker 3 (01:10:03):
I know. I mean, some of this just seems like
not you know, rearranging that shirts and the Titanic is
an over cliche and it doesn't really apply here because
no one's saying WW is going out of business. But
it just seems trivial. It's like it almost doesn't matter,
like why you even make a big deal out of it,
because it just I don't know that it makes much
of a difference, but I want them to explain it.
You know, the tag team Champions, the Unified Take Champs

(01:10:24):
showed up on Raw last night, and what they didn't
really I don't remember them saying. And by the way,
now when you now, well, originally I should say going
back when you win the taking titles and made a
big deal out of the fact that the wrestler if
you win the tag title, he gets be on both friends,
but they didn't mention it on Raw. Going now these
two wrestlers get to be on WRAW kind of re
explain to the audience why SmackDown wrestlers are showing up

(01:10:47):
on Raw, and I think you have to kind of
keep going back to that and let people know one
of the prestigious aspects of being a champion, a unified
champion is the ability to reach a larger audience and
be on both shows, but really play up the idea
that now Teddy I'm sorry, Cody Rhodes and Drew McIntyre
are in a whole new world and you know, talk

(01:11:07):
about it like sport. This is something that Mett Striker,
as much as I don't look forward to spending two
hours with them every week, he's good at this aspect
of it, which is talk about how Cody Roads is
probably giving Drew tips on some of these Raw wrestlers
that Drew's never wrestled before. Sure, and talk about the
scouting aspect of it. There's so many things that WWE
in commentary could do if Vince McMahon had his mind

(01:11:29):
in that area, in that zone, and he doesn't, and
Lawler doesn't, and Michael Cole doesn't, so we don't really
get enough of that on Raw. And I think to
get the unified titles over as oh, this is more
important because it's on both brands. You got to talk
about it more and not just have Drew McIntyre walk
out on Raw for the first time and act like
it It might as well have been Sentino walking out.
It just it wasn't a big deal.

Speaker 4 (01:11:50):
I think they did initially when they unify the titles, right, Oh,
they did initially, right, Yeah, And then they did it
to pay per view as well. I remember remember them
saying that now they have the freedom to go to
both shows, But yet they've never really explained is that
a good thing? Is it a bad thing. It's just
they have the freedom to show up on both shows.

Speaker 3 (01:12:06):
And they make a big deal Jason out of how
you know, people watch SmackDown but not Ron. Some watch
Raw not SmackDown, and it's a lot more than we
would have thought. Well, who the hell is Drew McIntyre?
Then you know how many people watching Row don't know
who Drew is. I mean, if you have a title
change and Cody and Drew are together, explore that. Don't
just have him go out and beat a joke of
a tag team while the Tyson Kidd and DH Smith

(01:12:28):
just bury themselves a terrible commentary, like actually, like introduce
us to this as if it's a big deal. Welcome
through McIntyre to Raw. What do you think of being here? Well,
let me tell you something. Josh Matthews, you know, and
I'm going to the DH just impersonation of him. But
you know, it smells around here and I don't like it.
I like it on SmackDown. Just do something to get
him over. But how do you expect to retain a

(01:12:49):
rating on a TV show with people holding remote controls
in their hand? When you got take champs who come
out and it's Cody Rose with some guy they've never
seen before, you know it. You're gonna do tag team,
go all the way with it. And that's my thing.
My second rule of wrestling is if you do anything
and you want it to work, you gotta go big.
You gotta go really really get behind it and do

(01:13:10):
it well.

Speaker 4 (01:13:11):
And it's become so predictable. It's like when you started
seeing Cody and Drew teaming up together, It's like, oh, okay,
they must be winning the tag titles. Because that's the
only time they really do anything with tag teams is
when they put two singles guys together. You know, Hart
Dynasty's an exception, but they didn't take They're not taking
the USO Brothers seriously. No one takes Santino or Vladimir
Kaslof seriously, and it's just it's it's really frustrating that

(01:13:35):
Vince just doesn't see any money in tag team wrestling.
And I just after shaking my head at the build
up for Night of Champions, not only did they not
even make a fuss out of the fact that they're
all titles would be defended, they didn't play that up
at all this year. I thought that was a big mistake,
but then they you know, just I think on Friday's

(01:13:55):
SmackDown is when they finally made it clear that yeah,
there's going to be a tag match, but we care
about it so much tune in to see what it is.

Speaker 3 (01:14:01):
Almost did a spit take at the beginning of the
pay per view when Michael Cole said to some Mets
record Jerry Lawler, we're here at Night of the Champions.
It is one of the most prestigious nights all here
for WWE because all the titles are on the line,
and I just, I mean, I was a spit take.
I'm like, really, you're you're gonna try to with a
straight face, mister Heal announcer who's you know, has these

(01:14:22):
temper tantrums on the air and goes off. We're supposed
to believe you when you tell us having all the
titles on the line and one pay per view is
a big deal. How often over the over the course
of the year do we get two world titles on
a pay per view? Almost all the time, you know,
almost always the two world titles are defended, then we'll
get probably a women's title match on most pay per views.
So they're trying to tell us that having both the

(01:14:43):
IC and the US title and the completely meaningless tag
team titles where there's not even a tag team close
to over in the company, that's supposed to make this
the most prestigious is we're adding the bonus of forcing
a match that we didn't even want to tell you
was happening ahead of time because we thought it would
hurt more bias than help. And we're suppos be excited
that both the IC and the US title are being
defended when they're often defended on a show anyway, maybe

(01:15:04):
not both at one And how many TV shows in
the course of a week do watch Raw and SmackDown
and see a lot of title matches anyway, it's one
thing of title change. If title matches and opportunities were
treated and coveted more, treated as if Russler's coveted them more,
and if all the divisions were over. But they're not.
So it's just it's a hard sell. You can't just

(01:15:25):
tell people something but not actually live it. And I
don't think they make the take Tam title seem important.

Speaker 1 (01:15:36):
You don't have to wait for the way Keller Pro
Wrestling post show to find out what I thought of
Monday Night Raw and SmackDown. Each week, you can check
out my reports that are updated live throughout Raw and
SmackDown at pwtorch dot com. My written report will tell
you what's happening in detail in case you missed the show,
and it'll also analyze key segments and give my random
thoughts quips on what I am watching as it airs.

(01:15:59):
So check it out every Monday night and Tuesday night
at pw torch dot com. That also applies to WWE
pay per views. I cover those live at pw torch
dot com with a detailed written report with star ratings,
and of course you can find other TV reports from
other contributors to pw Torch such as nxt roh Impact Wrestling,
and more. Check it out pw torch dot com, your

(01:16:20):
first stop for TV and pay per view. Written reports.

Speaker 3 (01:16:32):
Jason Tyson Kidd and DH Smith. What was that?

Speaker 15 (01:16:36):
You know?

Speaker 4 (01:16:37):
I have no idea. Dh Smith is just void of
any type of charisma whatsoever. It stuns me that because
everything we heard about the guy was you know this guy,
you know, I know. John Laurenidis, for instance, has told
people that he saw him as a future WrestleMania main inventor.

Speaker 3 (01:16:53):
That was his Don Laurenidis has no eye for talent.
He thought, Hiden Reich in Kendal Suzuki, we're going to
be big starts. When he first got control and started
bringing people in for SmackDown, John Laurni, it's does not
have an instinct for this business. And that Dasmith example
you just gave Jason just solidifies it confirms it. It's
in cement. He's just that's not his strength.

Speaker 4 (01:17:15):
Now, you're right, and but I mean, wow, it's just
they were so bad. I know, I mean Michael Cole
saved that segment, but you know, mocking them for being
as bad as they were. And so I don't know
if that was by design or what, but that whole
segment was just brutal. I didn't care about the new
tag team champions at all. It didn't mean that the

(01:17:36):
one thing they did was had them pin Coslof instead
of Santino. They don't even bother to play that up
as being a meaningful moment, because we you know, we
always see Santino lose, but we never see Kosloff lose.
So what was the point if you're not going to
make point that out and make a big fuss over it,
and then you've got this mess going on on commentary. Yeah,
just if you're not going to do the tag team

(01:17:56):
division right, then go ahead and scrap it at this
point and take don't take the seven suitation will walk
with you.

Speaker 3 (01:18:02):
Or except that there's going to be a couple steps back,
such as last night's ratings in order to eventually take
some steps forward and have that depth, and I would
still argue, well, yeah, if you're not going to do
it right, get rid of it. I mean, that's no
doubt about it. I mean, I just I'm tired of people.
I'm tired of seeing anything on wrestling that's done halfheartedly.
I think if you're going to do it, go all in.
You know. There's just no viewers cansense when you're not

(01:18:24):
really into it, you know, And so don't even bother
and and and I think with the Taking division, they
need to sit down and go all right, how can
we get this division over and make it important to
them the same way that it's important to get Randy
Orton and Johnson over. There's no reason you can't take
the time to say, what have we learned from the past,
and when if Taking has been over, how has that worked?

(01:18:45):
What talent is floating out there that just doesn't have
a lot going on, like Drew and Cody, and then
put some thought into how to portray their characters. But
back to the commentary, I mean d H Smith seriously,
it's like he was born without facial expressions. And I'm
not trying to pick on him if that's the case,
but I don't know that if you're char Laura Knight
as somebody who was born without facial expression, so I'd
say Bobby Lashley was too, that you should be thinking

(01:19:08):
this guy's a future main event or I mean he
he There's nothing nothing about David hart Smith that I
can say good as a professional wrestler. He doesn't. He doesn't.
He doesn't have a good body for it. He's just
kind of awkward and looks water logged. And it makes
you sad because you look at him and he doesn't
look as good as Davey boy Smith did his dad.

(01:19:28):
But he looks just as bloated and water logged his face,
he looks like a chip. I mean, I don't want
to get up. I shouldn't be too mean to him,
but god, I mean.

Speaker 4 (01:19:34):
What's there? Yeah, I mean everything you're saying there is
just dead on absolute Positiveically, he just doesn't have it.
And it's I know, when he was in developmental he
had a really good reputation for being a guy who
would go out there and try to learn different styles
and things like that. And so I don't know if

(01:19:54):
he's just not a good fit in WWEE and if
if all of a sudden he was one of those
guys who went to Japan, they he could really find
something for him and work around his limitations. But he's
just frankly not a good fit in with with what
ww he's trying to do.

Speaker 3 (01:20:07):
And then Dyson Kidd, I thought he was going to
say you're Rubbert, I'm glue and whatever you say, bounce
off me and six to you. He like was pulling
out these like seventh grade comebacks to Michael Cole that
were just grown inducing. I mean, he's just, I mean,
they're just I mean, you know, they kept up Wwe
kept the Hardy's and edgend Christian off the mic for years,
and I really I didn't like that. I thought, you know,

(01:20:28):
put people out there, let him swinker, sink or swim,
and you know, you're better off with fans getting to
know you, even if that isn't always mean, that doesn't
always mean you have a real polished promo. But come
but I'm almost ready to pull that retract to that
that policy. I think the Hardy's all along could have
done better promos then and had they gotten the head start.

(01:20:48):
And I think Gadgen Christian have shown that they're good
promos and it was a mistake to not give them
more mic time during their formative years as a tag team.
But David art Smith and Tyson Kidd, I think that's
something you practice on super Stars and then you go, Okay,
we're not going to put that on Raw. I just
that was that was bad? Well, Jason, let's revisit this rating,

(01:21:09):
because what can WW do at this point with a
two point seven or two point seven I think, or
two point eight whatever, They're well below three point zero.
It's not a holiday. I know they're up against Moneit
football and I know Dancing with the Star's debut, and
they got a good mix account all, that's still that's
a terrible rating, well below what they've done in the
past up against tough competition. Is there anything they can

(01:21:32):
do though, to battle back?

Speaker 4 (01:21:34):
You know it's in the two days. Looking at short term,
I think if they do shake things up for SmackDown
the debut on Sci Fi Network, that could give them
a little something, depending on how they go about if
they make a big fuss over it, then maybe they
can get people paying attention, and if the execution is good,

(01:21:55):
maybe they'll stick around long term. I just think there's
a they need to just things up dramatically, not from
a talent roster standpoint, but just in the way that
they do so many things raw. There's nothing wrong about Row.
It's been said a million times, but it's very true.
It's just very formula and I really think it's time

(01:22:15):
to get overhaul just the way they produce everything, it
just becomes so glossy and it's just, you know, you
know what you're getting from Raw week in week out.
There's no major twists and turns and surprises. And when
there are, when they do something big like Nexus, Man,
people respond, people get excited about it, but then the
execution's kind of hu hum, and boy did they do

(01:22:35):
some damage to that group over the week, over the
last couple of days. I mean, you just have to
follow through and be consistent. And I think it's a
long term problem and so a short term fix might
get the ratings up a little bit, but I think
it's just a real something that they're really gonna have
to set their minds to and just overhaul the way
they do things. But I don't know that they know

(01:22:56):
any other way at this point.

Speaker 3 (01:22:58):
I know, I think they're really sent their ways, And
what I'm worried about is it's going to have to
get a lot worse before they would think of really
changing things up. And I think giving Raw a fresh
look and having a fresh set of eyes come in
and say, let's produce this differently. Let's let's take some
chances and it's scary, you know, I mean, you don't
want to do what Coca Cola did and whatever it

(01:23:20):
was in nineteen eighty four. Whenever when they're like new coke,
you know, people you know, and I read I read
a chapter and I think it was a Malcolm Gladwell
book on this or freakonomics or something where you know,
they talked about it. They had these corporate executives saw
that pepsi was beating coke in taste test challenges, and
they're like, oh no, we're gonna lose our market share.
And so they went and they said, we need to
make coke sweeter, so let's make it more like pepsi.

(01:23:40):
And what they didn't realize is that people liked a
sip of pepsi better, but they liked a whole can
of coke better. And people remember that when they went
out and bought soda, they actually liked when they had
to drink a whole twelve ounce or sixteen ounce soda,
they like coke better because it wasn't so sweet. But
at a store when you drank you know, a half
inch in a tiny little plastic cup, people like pepsi better.
But there was a reason coke at a larger market share.

(01:24:01):
When people went to the store, they looked at the
at the cartons or two or the two leaders and
they said, my memories of coke are better. I like
the way that feels when I drink it. And they didn't.
They didn't even know how to put it to words.
But that's why Cokett had done. So when it came
out with new coke, people started freaking out. So anyway,
you don't want raw to change something just for the
sake of changing it and not have an idea of

(01:24:22):
of if it's going to actually work or not, and
end up blowing and end up at a two point one,
you know, or a one point eight rating and really
being like, oh my god, what have we done? But
yet you don't want to be scared of changing either.
If you can make you know, if you can make
will reasoned, well thought out, you know, not common sense,
because you want to innovate a little bit, not just

(01:24:42):
stick to everything that's worked before. But it's it's a
scary process, you know. It goes back to what I
said about Eric Bishop saying, oh, I like that instant
feedback with ratings in the crowds you know that that
takes you a certain way, a certain direction, but at
some point you just have to stand up and go
I have an idea, and I'm going to execute it well,
and based on being immersed in wrestling and watching it

(01:25:02):
for decades and taking into account the landscape or the
entertainment landscape, and the talent that we have and the
way that fans have been reacting for years, not just
Monday night, not just Thursday night, but for years. I
think I have a sense of word to take this
industry and where to kind of turn the steering wheel
a little bit and go this other direction. And I
do think production wise, is a good place to start
make roth feel new and exciting by doing something different.

(01:25:23):
And I don't have confidence that we're close to them
doing that even with this one rating. I think they're
much more have to start hot shotting and.

Speaker 4 (01:25:30):
Now this is in a quick fix. It's going to
solve everything. But it is one little production thing that
I just I can't believe they haven't addressed. It's to them,
they think it's a big deal to have our truth
out there doing a hip hop song. The rest of
the music on that show is just bubblegum pop crap.

(01:25:52):
They have access to pretty much any music they want,
and it's either hard rock or bubblegum rock, nothing else.
Why not try why not try to broaden things a
little bit, makes in some hip hop for your entrance
themes and just your music, and you know, not just
go with the same old stop, the same old formula
stuff that you do. And I mean, I just think

(01:26:13):
they appeal to the same audience without even trying. I
just think that that's what a parent whoever's doing the
music these days, but it's still John Big Deboric or
you know, I'm not I'm not even sure who's in
charge of music. But they need to think outside the
box a little bit. And if they don't know any
other music, then it's time to bring in somebody young
that that you know, keeps an eye on the music
industry and knows what good music actually is, or at

(01:26:35):
least what is over these days, because it's you know
that someone us flick that NXT theme song. Who the
hell likes that? I know one one of my readers does,
so I will say that everyone everyone else on there
is just like this is one of the worst songs
I've ever heard. In my whole life.

Speaker 3 (01:26:51):
I seriously, I think it has kept me away from
that show at times. Well I a dread watching it
because I don't want to experience a song that makes
me hate everything.

Speaker 4 (01:27:05):
Well, I mean, I'm a hard rock fan, but I'm
also thirty eight years old and you know, listening to
the radio and just looking at like what is drawing
concert wise in the hard rock genre the WWE is in.
It's the old bands, and you know, so here WWE
is playing this bubble gum pop that a lot of

(01:27:27):
times doesn't even get played on the radio, and ah,
it's just that bad. I don't know who they think
is listening to this.

Speaker 3 (01:27:33):
Yeah, I know, I know. All right, Jason, we'll wrap
up on that note. Thanks so much as always for
sticking around to the VP after show, and high all
dot net listeners for listening and on us here. I
think that is about it, Go Twins.

Speaker 4 (01:27:50):
Go Twins, And looking forward to next week, I think
we're gonna have a lot to talk about as we
inch closer to that debut of SmackDown on the Sci
Fi Network.

Speaker 3 (01:27:59):
You think a lot of roster shuffling, person, I'm major.

Speaker 4 (01:28:03):
You know, I boy, if there wasn't going to be before.
I wonder if that they see that rating and that
that really it leads to some long meetings at WWE headquarters,
especially since you know they already have Raw in the can,
so they've got It's not like the creative staff has
anything else to do this week, and so it's a
good time from that standpoint.

Speaker 3 (01:28:21):
Well, they can cancel the European tour and tap Raw
live next week in hot Shot Hot Shot Away to
try to keep bony Hammer happy. But that's not that
is not the so long term solution to their problems.

Speaker 4 (01:28:32):
So no, it's not all right.

Speaker 3 (01:28:34):
Thanks so much everybody. Thanks Jason Pal once again for
joining me, and until next time. This is Wade Keller
signing off.

Speaker 19 (01:28:47):
Are you a fan of AW looking to sit back,
relax and listen to some like minded podcasters who share
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(01:29:09):
on the PW Torch Live Cast feed. Search PW Torch
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Speaker 2 (01:29:37):
You're listening to the PW torch Live Cast. This is
PW Torch Assistant editor James Caldwell hosting today on Wednesday,
September twenty second, twenty ten, and I'm joined today by
Torch Nostalgia Calmist Brian. Oops, Brian, how are you doing today?

Speaker 9 (01:29:52):
Oh?

Speaker 6 (01:29:53):
I'm doing great?

Speaker 8 (01:29:53):
How about yourself?

Speaker 2 (01:29:54):
James? Solid? Solid afternoon watch of wrestling news. H I
can't use the word solid to describe feelings on the
day before, but good day. A lot of news, a
lot of rustling TV to talk about this week, going
back in the last twenty four hours. Raw rating, I

(01:30:15):
don't know what hammered down. Terrible befuddling concerning use your
you know, pick your adjective. The raw rating is the
story and how that might affect a series of three
pay per views over a one month period. We'll talk
about that, Mickey, James and the news We got to
report that she has signed with TNA, and I've talked
to sources in TNA who claim the Shield debut on

(01:30:38):
the Live Impact on October seventh. So we have a
report on that on p tob Torch dot com right now.
So those are just two of the mini stories in
the news over the last twenty four hours. Brian, the
raw rating came in yesterday two point eight rating, just
kind of one of those lowest scents and you go
back two or three years for the rating and the

(01:30:59):
view leadership.

Speaker 9 (01:31:01):
You know, I.

Speaker 2 (01:31:03):
Think this fall season has a lot of height behind
it in terms of the competition. There's a lot of
good program, there's a lot of program that's taken away
w w's audience, but it's not at the same level
as past fall season. Sort of that the first Monday
of the fall season, the official fall season beginning. What
do you attribute this drop in the rating too? Is

(01:31:25):
it competition? Is it something that w W is or
is not doing. Is it just overall the audience being
down on that product right now? What's your what's your
main factor here?

Speaker 6 (01:31:36):
You know, I think it's a combination of factors. Right now,
it's gonna be number one lack of interest in the product.
You know, your pay per view numbers are dwindling. Your
TV viewership has been declining mostly this fall. They did
have was a spike a couple of weeks ago, but
for the most part they've been trending a little bit
down compared to a year ago levels. You know, you've
got other things going on. You've got football game that

(01:31:59):
was competitive, a big matchup with the Saints playing next week.
You look ahead, you got Packers Bears on Monday Night
going against the taped show of Ross, so that's likely
to be another episode that could have poor ratings. Usually
taped episodes don't do quite as well, and that's a
pretty marquee matchup Bears Packers on.

Speaker 2 (01:32:17):
Monday night football.

Speaker 6 (01:32:18):
It's just I think a combination of those two things
that there's other shows on TV that people are more
interested in, and at the same time, you've got decline
in interest in wrestling. You know, I was at the
gym the other night when when Rob was on and
had it on while we were working out and won
the TV's and somebody went and changed it. You know,
there just isn't any interest. There's no interest at all

(01:32:39):
from somebody from anybody else except me. I think lots
of wrestling, but I'm just I'm just afraid here that
we're going to see another week of sliding rating when
it comes.

Speaker 20 (01:32:49):
To Ross.

Speaker 2 (01:32:51):
And we'll get a whole mon of night football edule.
They have some pretty good matchups throughout the season. I
kind of I remember even when they announced that line
up a couple of months ago, I looked at it
and I said, Rob might be in trouble as fall.
And then you throw in the fact that History Channel
and we saw this, we saw this last year. I
kind of wrote about this a little bit of my
analysis last year during the fall season. History Channel had

(01:33:13):
some programs that are drawing over you know, every week
over four million and sometimes over five million viewers, and
what Raw usually draws, and they're charging in that male demos.
He had two, uh you know, sort of a brand
new series to draw the mail demo in the traditional
Monday night football uh program to draw away to the
male demo. And then you couple that, I mean I

(01:33:34):
think with the Nexus Angle. The Nexus Angle had some momentum,
uh it it drew viewers during the summer. I thought
it did pretty well as a draw for you know,
perhaps that younger demographic seeing something new and fresh and
different and something that looked a little bit more hipper
and a little bit more cooler than your traditional raw

(01:33:54):
angle and nexus and that that angle, to me, that's
just dead and they might be reviving it, perhapster they have.
John Cena joined that group after helling himself. Brian, do
you think they need to go a different direction? Was
next to and then his scrap it would adding seen
into that mix kind of help help boost some interest
in the product this fall when they really they just

(01:34:15):
need something and I don't know that, you know, Raydon
wouldn't really appeals that no demographic, But there wasn't really
a chase for the title. All of a sudden, he's
just a champ and he comes out there and Ron
has that first promo, and you know, I didn't really
buy the promo. It didn't feel I didn't feel excited
about it, and it felt kind of like a tentative cheer.

(01:34:37):
You know, he's talking about that he would rko grandmothers
and he has no honor, and the crowd's kind of like, yes, yeah,
I guess I'm kind of behind that. You know, It's
just like this this Real Muddy and this Real Muddy promo,
and I don't know, maybe that took away some momentum
from his his push right off the bat. So what
can they do, Brian to kind of boost interest this fall?

(01:34:59):
Is it reinvigorate the nexus angle? There's something completely different
bringing I mean, inevitably, I feel they're gonna either gonna
bring back Triple Ah or Vincent Man, that's what they
always do. But what can we do right now to
help them that's fall?

Speaker 6 (01:35:13):
Well, you know, there's a lack of interest in the
pay per views and the TV from the standpoint there,
there's certainly other competition out there. You know, we talked
about Monday Night football. I think Dancing with the Stars
also premiered the other night, so that's gonna get a
lot of viewership. And then of course there's other programs
on some of the other channels. I think TWI if
I have vo is a new channel or a new
program that's debuted on CBS. So you get all these

(01:35:34):
competing factors. You're gonna have to have something that's gonna
hook the viewers that are gonna come back and watch wrestling.
You're starting to slowly erode some of that base away,
and uh, my opinion, the Nexus angle peaked this summer,
especially with SummerSlam, that was kind of a blowoff to
that angle. As far as interest when they kind of,
you know, kind of close the angle on Nexus and

(01:35:55):
they tried to revive it, I don't think that's gonna work.
Even if you bring in uh, you know, a John's
or somebody else into the mix. I just don't see
that that's going to be enough to revive that Nexus
angle because it's it's kind of been dealt a blow
already and interest is starting to wan on it. There
just doesn't feel any momentum from that Nexus program right now.

(01:36:15):
You know, ultimately, when you when a promotion gets hot
or a territory got hot back in the nostalgia days,
it was because somebody a wrestler turned and sparked a
new program with someone else. He brought in new face
into a territory that sparked a fresh program. You've got
a young rookie coming up that made her title run

(01:36:37):
or something, and they've they've tried to elevate some of
the guys, but they really haven't hardly got anybody up
to that main card event level.

Speaker 8 (01:36:45):
Status.

Speaker 6 (01:36:46):
Shamus, I think is the one that you could put
at a main event level.

Speaker 2 (01:36:51):
Place right now.

Speaker 6 (01:36:52):
He's the only one that is able to headline a
pay per view, I think you. Jack Schliger is a candidate,
especially on the SmackDown rot, but certainly not strong enough
to carry a pay per view by himself. You know,
they've taken guys from the opening match level, put him
to the to the mid card level, and haven't pushed
it or taken anybody to that next level. And you're

(01:37:13):
going to have to do that sacrifice some ratings maybe
this fall, so that in six months down the road,
you're going to have a program or you're going to
have a performer that's in a position where he can
carry a new main event, something that's fresh and something
that's invigorating to this crowd. You know, you just can't
in one week turn things around. Maybe you could do

(01:37:34):
that with the return of McMahon or a return of
Triple H, but it's not going to have a long
lasting effect as a new performer or someone fresh to
the business would exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:37:44):
Yeah, you mentioned Estaliga. Today is a good day to
get on the phone lines today and talk to talk
to Brian. If you have an estalogic question or something
maybe you watched on TV or on the Classics on demand,
you want to know the backstory on it. Talking to
Brian today with the nostalgia expertise. If you can jump,
if you want to jump on the phone lines, give
us a call. The number to call is six four, six,

(01:38:06):
seven to one, nine, eight to eight.

Speaker 12 (01:38:09):
Uh, Brian.

Speaker 2 (01:38:10):
Chris Jericho a big topic over the last several months. Uh,
kind of his status up in the air. We're going
to talk about spoilers on what happens on Monday's Raw.
But Jericho is on the show on Monday to kind
of set up an angle for this coming Monday's show
with Randy yorton what what what do you make of
a situation? And I kind of bring this up because

(01:38:31):
he just posted, uh something on Twitter and I'll kind
of read this off. It's just kind of he posts
this about five minutes ago, so it's relatively new. So
get your reaction to this, and uh, he starts off
kind of painting everyone on the internet with a broad stroke,
which annoying. I a number one, but let's go and

(01:38:51):
get get some analysis. What he said here he said
quote a lot internet experts. Well, I'm gonna explain something
to you, kiddies. Winning and losing means nothing. It can
do a pop. I would be happy to lose to
every single one of you and watch your faces as
I walk out of the arena with more heat than before.
Watch and learn, children, sit back and let the real
experts work our magic as we make you behave like

(01:39:12):
the little puppets that you are. Cheers and you know
he says that, And I don't have a problem with
him with him losing as long as it has something
to do with where is this going? And that's the
thing about this entire storyline with Jericho on TV is
that I haven't got a sense that it's going anywhere,
and I don't get a sense that them to be
really has an idea of where it's going. He's done

(01:39:34):
a couple of different losing streaks this year. It's still
at the same time, I believe that he's helped elevate
John Morrison with his program un wrong. So, Brian, what's
your reaction what Jericho had to say is program and
the fact that he has been losing a lot on TV,
and where do you think it's going yet?

Speaker 6 (01:39:52):
You know, he's a guy that has been willing to
put over other wrestlers in a way to try and
elevate them, similar to what Seawn Michaels was willing to
do when he was still wrestling. You know, we had
a death of Lance Kaid recently, and one of his
last runs was Sean Michael putting him over, trying to
build him into a star before he had his issues
on the airplane going over to Europe, and Michaels has

(01:40:15):
been in the same vein trying to help elevate guys.
I think he does recognize that you have to bring
in some new stars and elevate those guys if it's
done in the right manner in the right context. Losing
is not going to hurt Chris Jericho. It's not going
to knock him off of the status that he's at.
Most fans recognize him as being a star in a

(01:40:36):
main event level type wrestler, and there isn't going to
be anything that's going to change that less short of
some major program where he really comes off looking you know,
not credible, or you know, some sort of a joke
of a wrestler, and he's good enough on the microphone
that he can rebuild himself. You know.

Speaker 8 (01:40:54):
You know, back in the Four Horseman.

Speaker 6 (01:40:56):
Days, they lost a lot of matches Rick Flair and
the Horseman and when they would rest either in single
or takes, they lost a lot, but they would come
back on TV the next week talking about how great
they were, and he convinced fans that they were still
on the top of the game. So it doesn't it
doesn't have to have a negative effect wins and losses.
It's more of how they're portrayed and how the company

(01:41:17):
rebuilds them after those losses. But you know, I guess
I'm more upset with how WWE is handling the stipulations
of his departure. You know, how many times have they
teased that he was never going to be appearing on
Raw again or appearing on Wrestling, And the next night
he's right back on the show.

Speaker 2 (01:41:36):
Right, Yeah, You're exactly right. And you know, we were
kind of emailed before the show, and one of the
things that you suggested as a storyline where they might
be going with this is he kind of comes back
under a mask. We saw the mis do that before
when they had a storyline with that. I believe it
was last year when he came back be as Canadian

(01:41:56):
Red or something like that. I don't remember exactly what
the gimmick was, but uh, that does this so often,
and I mean that's why they have such a there's
such a lack of trust between and that and Michael Cole.
Uh with him being delusional as that he has your
lead pitch man in announcer. There's such a lack of
trust between an audience and viewer, and that's another factor

(01:42:17):
with business being down. I believe just how many times
Doug has done this. It's just that the boy who
cried Wolfe syndrome where people just don't trust them aren't
gonna spend their money. Do you see Jericho kind of
coming back as you know, sort of a masked man
who reveals his identity and what do you think that
might factor into the raw GM situation where he has

(01:42:38):
claimed on in the storyline that he knows the IP
address and he can he'sn't expose to the GM. What
do you think of these two things that are leading
to either intertwined or complete separately.

Speaker 6 (01:42:50):
Yeah, I don't know if they know exactly where it's
gonna lead to, and I'm not sure that they've figured
out exactly where they're going with this raw GM, but
they're just gonna keep playing it along. But they've allowed
to sells the door open to come back with Chris
Jericho being the raw GM and and working that type
of an angle. So you know, it's opened the door

(01:43:11):
for him to come back at some point down the
road with that angle as him feuding with the heel GM.
You know, he had been one of his best runs
in two thousand and eight two thousand and nine in
the company when he came back from his couple of
year hiatus and took some time off. He was very
fresh as a character and really was, you know, the

(01:43:31):
MVP type performer of WWE in those two years, especially
when he was having that great feud with Sean Michaels.
So I don't think some time off would hurt Jericho
at all. I had, as he alluded to, I had suggested,
you know, maybe Jericho should be doing some sort of
a masked angle, what like they've done in history, where
there's a stipulation a guy would lose and leave a

(01:43:52):
territory for thirty days or ninety days, but only he
would come back under a mask and nobody know who
he was. You know, they did that angle many times over.
We're copied with Dusty Rhoades as the midnight writer. Bob
Armstrong became the bullet, Brian Pillman did a yellow Dog,
and you know, there's just a lot of guys. Rise
of Brodie in fact, was Red River Jack doing the
same type of angle. And that would be to me

(01:44:14):
a much better angle to run in this type of
environment than trying to build some sort of a stipulation
that nobody believes and then have them ignore it anyway,
because you go back to like Sam Mushnik in Saint Louis,
he would never ever insult the intelligence of his audience
and not adhere to a stipulation because he just didn't

(01:44:35):
believe that, you know, long term business could be sustained
if you major audience still ripped off and cheated. And
I think both T and A and W we are
guilty of this and are feeling some of the native
effects this time because of their actions in previous stipulations
and angles.

Speaker 1 (01:44:52):
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Speaker 2 (01:45:34):
You're listening to the PW Torch live cast. This is
PW Torch Assistant editor James Caldwell hosting today with Torch
and Nostalgia Collum, Miss Bryan. Oops. Want to give up
the phone number before we jump on the phone lines.
If you want to join us live on the live
cast today. The number to call it is six four
six seven two one nine eight two eight. Let's go
our first caller today. This is in a I believe

(01:45:56):
an International or Skype calls is a one one one
area code, So Aaron Astros Skype. Welcome to the show.
Please take you where you're from?

Speaker 3 (01:46:03):
What's up?

Speaker 2 (01:46:04):
Guys?

Speaker 21 (01:46:04):
How you doing?

Speaker 2 (01:46:05):
Hey? How are you doing? What's what's your name? Marie
calling from?

Speaker 21 (01:46:08):
This is color X some parts unknown?

Speaker 2 (01:46:11):
Okay, what do you have for us today?

Speaker 21 (01:46:13):
I just think the Johnson Angle be nice if yeah,
he would join next. I just think WW has too
much invested in merchandise, too much invested in this new
Walmart DVD release to turn them, you know he all
of a sudden. I just think it would be too
counterproductive to the merchandise market.

Speaker 3 (01:46:28):
The Angle.

Speaker 21 (01:46:30):
Really enjoy the show. I really enjoy the knowledge you
guys are bringing today. I just want to get your
comment on that.

Speaker 2 (01:46:34):
Sure good question bring up. That was actually kind of
leads me to a plug for the question of the
Day that we have on people Torch dot com is
actually yesterday is was should John Cena join Nexus or
should they have Nexus? This band? Brian using the W
would pull the trigger on seeing the heel turn in
soo much as he's forced to join Nexus, so it's

(01:46:56):
not a true heel turn and using them to take
business if he's have aligned with that group, A heel
group at Braster starts to do healish things. What if
secheting that would have on business long term, either positively
or negatively.

Speaker 6 (01:47:12):
You know, I think at some point down the road,
a Sena heel turn would be great for business. And
maybe one of the most closest examples you could give
would be the whole Cogan turn when he was a
you know, tired baby's face in ninety six and turned
heel and really sparked his career and helped to turn
around WCW in the whole nWo angle. You know, the
big difference between the Sena of today and Hull Hogan

(01:47:35):
back in ninety six is you know, Hogan in ninety
six wasn't selling any merchandise. He wasn't popular at all.
That the character was stale and tired, And I don't
get that feeling of John Cena in twenty ten. His
merchandise is still a huge seller. He's still semi popular
with some some people not some people don't enjoy I
think if they kept him as a face and it

(01:47:56):
got to the point where he was completely stale and
merchandise quit, Sina as a heel could be a great run.
So I'm all for him turning At some point. I
just don't think the timing is right in the fall
of twenty ten to do that. And if he joins
up with Nexus after you know what they have passed
that they've had, I don't see that as being a
real positive influence on the Nexus group either, certainly not

(01:48:19):
enough to sell each of the group.

Speaker 2 (01:48:21):
Yeah, I see this as an opportunity to give Seena
something to do that will freshen up his character. I mean,
Randy Orton's your top champion. It's gonna know Seena as yours,
your one a babyface and in Orton's your one b
so you need you need see it be doing something
important on your show. And so I view this as
something that they're gonna try to freshen up his character,

(01:48:41):
give him something to do. H if they do, or
they don't align him with Nexus for the stipulation, Like
you said, Bright, I would kind of hold off on
a full fledged Shields turn for a while. And like
you said, those are two big factors, which is is
he's selling merchandise and if he's not, then now that
would be the time to start doing that, start considering

(01:49:03):
a full fledged shield turn. But I just I think
it's a way to fresh up the character, give him
something new and important to do it and perhaps hopefully,
uh make the TV show feel a little bit less
scale than perhaps it is with Seeing at the centerpiece.
And so I don't know, we'll see. Helmet sells me
very interesting because it could give an indication of a

(01:49:26):
how much faith they have in Nexus, uh you know,
kind of aligning scene with that group, or be whether
they think Nexus has done and whether they wanted to
do something completely different with Seeing that. But just kind
of tease this as a way to freshen him up.
So we'll see, we'll see very very very good topic
that we're gonna be looking out for going to Hell
in the Cell color X. Any other question or follow up?

Speaker 21 (01:49:48):
I mean, I mean, do you honestly really see WWE
getting behind a guy like Michael A Tonga or the
Wendy's employee, whoever his name is. I mean, I just
think the way eventually no he got Yeah, what I'm
saying that the win that those two got disrespected by
seeing a you know, via the storyline.

Speaker 3 (01:50:05):
I just don't see.

Speaker 21 (01:50:07):
I just haven't seen a progression and those guys or
the other guy, Michael Tarvor. Yeah, I just don't think
these guys, yeah, on their own individually had the ability
all the my skills or even in ring wrestling ability
right now for w WW to get behind them, I
just think it their time is gone. I think Wade
Beryl stick around and like they done with Alex Rowley

(01:50:29):
of season two. Yeah, the miss has given him a
personal contract.

Speaker 3 (01:50:33):
But what's happened with the other guys.

Speaker 21 (01:50:35):
I have just been sent down to Florida FCW NOL
or what.

Speaker 2 (01:50:40):
Yeah, I believe so I know FCWS sent out a
release advertising and I believe it was Husky Harris and
I believe it was mcgilli cutty for their Friday show.
So yeah, the season two guys are down at FDW.
I don't know what they're gonna do with them. They
kind of geeze something at the end of season two
with mcgilli cutty and Genesis, and that hasn't panned out yet.

(01:51:02):
Maybe they will replace in Nexus. Maybe uh they'll remove
you know, the the you know it is Johnson from
the Windy's Guy, and uh, the Jennifer Hudson moocher and
and sort of those labels. I mean, it's hard to
overcome those labels, especially when uh, the audience is laughing
along and heels don't really have a response, and they
don't they're not getting an opportunity to get their heatback.

(01:51:24):
It's maybe it's time to move along from them and
and reinsert some of those NXC season two or insert
some of those NXC season two guys into those slots.

Speaker 4 (01:51:32):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (01:51:32):
Like you said, you know, they're not gonna get behind
them as sing those guys, They're just they're not over
individually at all.

Speaker 3 (01:51:38):
So I think I think I.

Speaker 21 (01:51:39):
Think they printed X number of Nexus T shirts and
they're about sold out of them, and that's at the
end of the print runt, and I think they're done.
But if I could stay on the line and listen,
put me on mute or something.

Speaker 2 (01:51:49):
Yeah, we appreciate, appreciate the call. Yeah, very good topics
to bring up, uh, Brian, any final reaction to that topic.

Speaker 6 (01:51:56):
Oh yeah, I think you're absolutely right. You know that
they've really nail the head. Actually, you know, you got
seen out there making fun of these heels, and how
are you going to build up these heels as money making,
main event monster type heels. You know, it's certainly not
the way to build anybody up that that you're gonna
have credibility or faith in these guys, and you know,
it just kind of makes the joke of your product.

(01:52:18):
And you know, Jim Cornett always said, you know, funny,
there's not equal money. You know, there's a place for
humor and wrestling, and when you make fun of your
main event, heels, that's not the time or the place
to be doing it.

Speaker 2 (01:52:29):
Yep, let's go in and grab another phone call. Let's
go to the three one eight area code three one eight.
Welcome to the show. Please think you having where you're from?

Speaker 8 (01:52:39):
Hey guys Jeff and Idaho.

Speaker 2 (01:52:41):
Hey Jeff, is your first time calling? Yep? All right,
good to have you on. What do you have for say?

Speaker 8 (01:52:49):
Oh, well, before I have two quick questions before I
get to them, throw I want to throw in my
random pick for the raw GM. Who I go for it?
Of course column.

Speaker 2 (01:52:57):
Miss Pat McNeil. I think Pat would like that that compliment.

Speaker 8 (01:53:04):
So well, he hasn't been on the show for a while,
so maybe he's in training.

Speaker 2 (01:53:08):
Well, it's funny to mention that because we're actually we're
gonna hear from Pat a little bit later in the show.
Uh So, a good segue to my plug Patt, I
pre recorded the UH the Lightning Events Center that we're
gonna have broadcast that we're gonna try our hand at
a a pre produced UH segment on the show. So
we're gonna try our hand later on today with that.
So thanks for the the uh, the segue into that

(01:53:30):
plug there. So all right, Jeff, what what what do
you have for us? On a serious note?

Speaker 8 (01:53:34):
Okay, my first question, I'm just curious what you guys
thought of CM Punk last night on the n XP.
I didn't watch too much of it because I don't
have any interest in that show until I heard he
was on there, But I thought he was hilarious.

Speaker 2 (01:53:48):
Yeah, I mean I haven't laughed out loud that many
times since watching Impact with Nash sting Jared and Hogan
talking about who knows what? That's been our That's been
our weekly Brian. I mean you and I know this,
it's been our weekly laugh out loud moments during the week.
Had been on Impact, watching those segments where it's just
they're saying nothing, but Punk was hysterical. I thought last night,

(01:54:11):
I don't know what it does for the product. I
mean I kind of equated this to Mystery Science three
thousand where they're just kind of mocking whatever they're watching.
But it's their own product, and granted it's not being
seen by a significant audience at all, and they're not
really I mean, obviously they're not trying to elevate anybody
that's gonna be featured on RAW anytime soon. But what

(01:54:33):
do you make of adding Punk to that broadcast and
just the overall tone of that show just acknowledging how
dumb it is and just openly mocking it.

Speaker 6 (01:54:45):
Well, eating on the long term, it's not gonna hurt ww.
Nobody's watching the show for one thing. They're probably gonna
move it to the internet for another, and then they
won't have long life no matter what happens with there's
just nobody watching it, So it's not gonna not gonna
affect the stock price, not gonna send vincewick Man's net
worth or anything like that. It's probably kind of a

(01:55:06):
tryout for CM Punk as far as his announce a role.
He's really proved to be very funny, and you know
who don't maybe they'll give him more of a permanent
slaughter or at least some sort of a semi main
slot of doing some sort of announcing in the future.
But I just don't think it's, you know, the big picture,
it's gonna make one iota of difference to ww's ratings

(01:55:27):
or any you know, creative direction that they're going in.

Speaker 2 (01:55:30):
Yeah, I agreed. If this is a show that people
are watching, it'd be can it would be concerning, kind
of like Michael Cole and Raw. Uh, but you know
this show, it's I mean, plump Plunk made it watchable
last night, and that show hasn't been watchable for the
first two weeks, so uh, thumbs up for that. I
just I just don't know. It would feel like a

(01:55:52):
waste of an hour if it didn't have Punk on.
So it already does feel like a waste of an hour,
but at least it's a bearable waste of an hour.
I just I don't know, it is what it is.

Speaker 3 (01:56:02):
I just like that.

Speaker 2 (01:56:03):
But Jeff, did you have any other question to follow up?

Speaker 8 (01:56:08):
Oh, I've just had a question. I kind of grew
up in this Idaho in the northwest area, and I'm
just curious if there's ever been any stars or promotions
that have been successful here, or any that you know
of that are currently operating.

Speaker 6 (01:56:24):
Brian yeah, you know, the only time I can think
of there was any promotions in Idaho was Stu Hart
started off promoting in Montana back in about the in
the fifties. But Boughy currently, I don't think there's really
much of anything going on there. I know in the
Nitro era when it was hot, I think WCW. Ransom

(01:56:45):
shows out in that area, some house shows, you know.
They certainly they did Sturgis, which isn't too far right
on the real closet Idaho, I think, And that would
be probably the closest that anybody's come in in the
last ten to fifteen years as far as a major promotion.

Speaker 8 (01:57:01):
Yeah, I went to uh Thunder when I was about
eleven and the only and it was in BOISEI, And
the only thing I remember about it is Norman Smiley
went to some backyard kids wrestling thing and stole their
championship bell.

Speaker 2 (01:57:13):
So, oh gosh, apologies for that. Yeah that was what
What year was that was that? I guess it's late nineties.

Speaker 8 (01:57:25):
I want to say ninety nine, ninety eight, ninety nine.
That was only ten or eleven, So yeah, yeah, that
was that was the era.

Speaker 2 (01:57:32):
Definitely, what was so Jeff good call. Glad to have
you on the show for the first time. Thanks for
calling in. Let's go ahead and grabbing a phone call.
Let's go to the four to one oh aery code.
Four oh. Welcome to the show. Please thinking where you're from?
Four oh, you're on the air. All right, I don't

(01:57:52):
put you back on hold. Yeah, well he's still on,
but four one all if you want to join a
life cast, drop amo at Peter Bytwort's wife cast at
Geno dot com and will put you back on. Let's
try the try the two eighty one here recorded believe
this is Jay out of Houston. Jay, let us know
what you have.

Speaker 9 (01:58:10):
Force said, all right, Yeah, that's how y'all doing today?

Speaker 2 (01:58:14):
Doing great? What's j all right?

Speaker 9 (01:58:17):
I have a little observation of CM Pump. To me,
it looks like they're kind of positioning him to be
the new Chris Jericho of the company, you know, the
guy that that can go around.

Speaker 12 (01:58:28):
From upper car, lower car, Mint Card main.

Speaker 9 (01:58:31):
Event, because I mean, he started off really hot this year,
first of the straight at Society, then he had that
really good few with Rayvens Stereo, and then after that
I was I was like kind of wondering why they
kind of just cut that off, especially after Ray won
the title. I thought would have been an actual progression
to go right straight to the CM punk things. I

(01:58:53):
wonder why is it that they always let the whenever
they bring up somebody new to the main event, they
immediately cut their legs, I mean, go back to the
older established guys, because I don't want to see how
they takes him. Can I'm still I still have fond
memory of the lesser many twenty things and it wasn't
cool man.

Speaker 2 (01:59:11):
What's your take on that? Well? What of thoughts there, Brian?
You want to take that first?

Speaker 6 (01:59:17):
Yeah, yeah, a lot of good thoughts. You know what
I think on that situation. It's the same old philosophy
that they've had for years now, and they're really struggling
now because of it. They get a guy that has shows,
some promise, like Punk has. He does good promos, good
inn ring work, headlines, a few shows or shows the
ability to and they putting back at the mid card level.

(01:59:38):
And that's the level you'd say is at right now.
The fact is they need to push some of these
guys to that main event slot so that they're fresh.
It's they're almost fearful of putting someone in that slot
and giving them a chance and make them a serious run.

Speaker 8 (01:59:52):
With it, you know.

Speaker 6 (01:59:53):
And maybe it's a fear that triple As would actually
lose his spot, but it's you know, it's a problem
that they have. They've had for several years now, and
it doesn't seem like things are getting a lot better. Yes,
they've tried to bring some guys from a low, lower
entry type role to not to a main event, but
to a semi main or to a mid level role,

(02:00:15):
and they just won't push them all the way. You know,
Punk's got one of the better pushes from the SmackDown brand,
and Seamus on Monday Night has been the other guy
that's benefited from the push. But you certainly couldn't make
the case that that's been the same thing for Jack Swagger,
who who they tried to put to that level and
then just you know, really took his legs out from
underneath him when they when they booked him so poorly

(02:00:37):
as a champion.

Speaker 22 (02:00:42):
Are you a nostalgic wrestling fan? Do you want to
hear about shows you haven't seen in ten, twenty, maybe
even thirty years. Well, I have the show for you.
I'm pwtorts dot com contributor Frank patty Ani and since
December of twenty twenty, I've hosted Pro Wrestling Than In
Now together with a rotating chair of co hosts, go
back and review old shows from top to bottom, talk

(02:01:03):
about where the wrestlers were at the time, and compare
what's taking place now to what took place. Then you
can hear this so along with other shows as part
of your pw Toworts VIP membership with exclusive podcasts just
for members compatible with the Apple Podcast app. Visit pwtorts
dot com slash go vip for details and sign up form.

Speaker 2 (02:01:28):
And Jennie Brand a really good point on Punk maybe
being the next Jericho, or at least being sort of
a fill in that slot, sort that heel who can
do comedy and still get over being the heel and
adds an entertainment value to the show that w likes
to have and one of their heels. I think that

(02:01:48):
what we've seen this year with you know, with Jack
Swagger being the World Ugly Champion this year, having a
cup of coffee with that, Seamus having his run his champion,
It's almost like if WB wants to hot shot someone
in the top or maybe a hot shot, but push
that person to the top and try to make them
incredible star without the long term bill to that point,

(02:02:08):
and they just want to go ahead and do it
because they're short on stars. The idea seems to be, well,
let's put the world title on the person, but they're
not gonna be credible because you know, if you look
at this as a shoot someone with let's say, you know,
let's say Undertaker and see them Punk last year, it
was exactly one year ago. Undertaker has you know, sixteen, seventeen, twenty, whatever,

(02:02:32):
you know whatever in w's land. I guess twenty years
of in re experience, and seem Punk has four years
of that would be experienced. So obviously, you know they
would they would think even realistically as well, Undertakers should
beat him. You know, Sampunk should have nothing on him
because Undertaker is a veteran. He has a history of
title victories and title uh title match victory has been

(02:02:55):
in a long runs as champions, so it's in their isness.
It wouldn't be realistic for Punk about I think, you know,
same with Jack Swagger, if you know it with Big Show,
and it wouldn't be realistic in their eyes for Jack
Swagger get a victory of her big show. Big big
show is around you know, I guess ten fifteen years
and Swagger just that the main you've been seen. So

(02:03:17):
their idea is, well, let's put the title on this
because that'll make that rustler more incredible to the audience.
But we won't have them go over clean because you know,
it just wouldn't be realistic in their eyes. And I
think that's what we've seen with Swagger. We came with Punk,
we was seen with Shamus a little bit, and I
think that's why they're doing that. And now they're going

(02:03:37):
back to Undertaker and Kane and Caine has a long
history of credibility on w TV, and I think that's
why they've elevated him more than you know, let's say,
see him Punk last year. And why it made Caine
seem like a bigger threat than Punk last year is
Kane has that in their eyes and has that veteran
experience that covers for uh, you know, maybe what you

(02:04:01):
know what Slager would bring the table or Punk would
bring in the table, which is a really good wrestler
who can you know, realistic and gives undertaker or run
for his money and the ring. Because of the style
they bring and then the way they presented the shoot.
I think that's kind of why they do it like that, right,
any of the thoughts they add to.

Speaker 6 (02:04:19):
That, well, you know, it's just unfortunate that they continue
to do it time after time again with guy after
guy that they're just so afraid to push that guy
or give him an opportunity. You know, they they did
the start stop, the fifty to fifty, even Stephen booking
for how long Niwill? It was so many different guys,
you remember, you know, with Swagger, first they were going
to give him this winning streak gimmick where he I

(02:04:41):
think he won two weeks in a row, and then
they decided to change their minds on that again and
putting back down into the mid card status. That good
kind of the same thing. When he was champion, they
gave him the belt and then never gave him a
win over anybody except for maybe like a DQ win
or something. That's not getting your champion over strong and
that's really not making a star, you know, you can
compared to a promotion that's hot right now, like UFC

(02:05:03):
they're making stars by having some of their champions get
beat You know, you think about George Saint Pierre. He
beat Matt Hughes, who was you know, he's in the
Hall of Fame. He's kind of a legend of UFC.
When he beat Hughes for the title, seton, Pierre became
a star and he's held the belt for two years,
so he got obviously on a winning streak and he's

(02:05:25):
an now the guy that they can main event their
pay per views around and draw big ratings.

Speaker 2 (02:05:29):
And one of their biggest stars that they have.

Speaker 6 (02:05:31):
And unfortunately WWE has not done that with anybody recently,
and they're you know, obviously paying the price with low
ratings and low by rates.

Speaker 2 (02:05:40):
Jay, any other question or follow up? Yeah, I got
some real good follow up for that trip H. You
mentioned Triple H.

Speaker 9 (02:05:47):
He out of all people, knows better. He wrote his
first title Rane. Yeah, I was watching some of his
clips on YouTube. Caled this first title Wan. He was
booked strongly, he got cleanly up. He was but very dominant.
That's how a championshipn't book and they know that thing
that I mean, even his his handpicked air so to speak,

(02:06:10):
shamous has has gotten to win over an established may
have better to save his life.

Speaker 2 (02:06:16):
At least not that I can revenn book. And my
thing is it's better to.

Speaker 9 (02:06:20):
Not have the title than to have a bunch of
enchampions because their many types of are starting to look
like the w CW title did in ninety nine and
two thousand with Hogan. Let it just like you give
everybody around two three months make him look weak. And
the thing with Punk really really made me man because

(02:06:40):
Undertaker totally cut his legs off. I don't know.

Speaker 2 (02:06:44):
I don't know if it's because of that discussion slash
argument they had, but I really wasn't filling. That never
really made me.

Speaker 9 (02:06:50):
Lose respect for him. I was wondering what schwarkapinion on
undertaking Triple A specifically, because they seem to not really
give guys a lot to work with.

Speaker 2 (02:07:01):
I think it goes back to the credibility point and
and Punk was chamm but you know, and w's eyes
Undertaker versus m Punk, Undertakers should win that clean, and
he should win that decisively. Uh, you know, that's just
the way that they look at it, and right or wrong,
that's the way it is. But Brian, what's your reaction

(02:07:22):
to the Jay's questions one Hunter and Takers specifically.

Speaker 6 (02:07:26):
Well, yeah, I agree with you there. They just view
those guys at separate levels, and Undertakers at a certain
status point. CM Punk is not any more close to
his level at this point in his career. At some point,
you know, they may elevate him, but they're not going
to do it at the expense of Undertaker at this juncture.
And they just don't see it in CM Punk, whether

(02:07:46):
it's because of backstage issues, how he dresses, you know,
words v users, or whatever the case may be. He's
not at that level that they're willing to do that,
you know, And if they can find the right guy
that they that they really want to, I think that's
how you could make a starter his wins over the Undertaker.

Speaker 17 (02:08:03):
You know.

Speaker 6 (02:08:04):
Unfortunately they're giving Kane strong wins over the Undertaker right now,
which you know makes for a good storyline, I guess
if you if you're into that feud, but I think
it would be a much better role to elevate somebody
to a main event level like Sampunk rather than recycled Kane.

Speaker 2 (02:08:21):
I agree with that. And another example is you know
the miss and John Cena. They had their feud. Uh,
you know, I guess it was last year, and everybody
kind of thought, well, why why aren't they having Miss
go over Sena and W's eyes, it did not look
credible for Miss with no back, you know, with no
track record of being a top star. He wasn't at

(02:08:41):
the same level as Sena to go over Seena, and
it was sort of a we're gonna give him a look,
we're gonna give him program. You have a lot of
verbal victories if you will on Sena that whole you know,
I'm seven and l against Sena because I you know,
I beat him down or or you know whatever the
storyline was back then. He kind of had that heelish
I have seven victories over John Cena. Uh, sort of

(02:09:04):
string of promos and that was how they try to
elevate him. And then you know, Sina won. In their eyes,
it was because MS is not at Sena's level in
a wrestling match. So, uh, that's just kind of the
way w's philosophy is on elevating younger talent. Some of
them get that New York rise like Seamus. Uh, some
of them kind of get a sniff and and get

(02:09:24):
that title run and we're gonna you know, we're gonna
have you, We're gonna have you lose that belt and
you're not gonna look that credible. But in our eyes
you hold that title, who's gonna mean something, uh for
down the road. And that's kind of the way they
do that, And I don't agree with it all the time,
but I know where they're coming from, and I think
they had a good point that it does kind of
water down the value of the title when it's hot

(02:09:46):
shot as often as it is, and they just they
just do it way too often without really establishing quests
and consequences to title match, UH change the title changes
and uh decues and title matches and that sort of thing.
So good, good question, good topics. Jaye appreciate the call.
Let's go ahead and grab another phone call. Got a
lot of people on hold, but to join us on

(02:10:07):
the live cast here, the number to call is six four,
six seven, nine eight eight. Let's go to the Let's
go to the nine to one floor area code U
nine one four. As blog talk refreshes me, here, we
go'st's for the nine one four. Welcome to the show.
Please say streaming where you're from.

Speaker 9 (02:10:25):
I was going, this is Johnny from New York.

Speaker 2 (02:10:27):
Hey, Johnny, what's going on today?

Speaker 6 (02:10:29):
Not much?

Speaker 23 (02:10:30):
How you guys doing doing well?

Speaker 12 (02:10:33):
All right?

Speaker 23 (02:10:33):
I was skimming through the WW magazine, the most recent
one with the Measum the cover, and I saw a
real interesting article They had, like the top five ways
that Matt Hardy got kicked out from WWE, and I
just thought that was kind of weird. Be the show
when he got arrested, when he got kicked out by security,
like just all these different ways of how Matt Hardy
got kicked out of WWE. Is there any update on

(02:10:54):
him or what's going on?

Speaker 2 (02:10:57):
Well, he says that WWA is not in his future.
He's still under contract. He was pulled from the MSGY
lineup for Saturday Night's House Show. You know, always with Hardy,
you never know how much of this is him trying
to work to get attention like an O five with
the Asianlita, and how much of this is true. WW

(02:11:17):
has not released him yet, so but they have pulled
him from house show tours and TV. He wasn't at
TV last night, so I mean, you kind of keep
waiting for that future end. Nevor notice to be posted,
but as of right now he's still the company. He
just he says that he doesn't believe his future is
in w AV. So, Brian Will, what's kind of your

(02:11:38):
reaction to all this with Hardy?

Speaker 6 (02:11:40):
Yeah, as you said, nothing official from WWE. He clearly
wants to be released or or trying to get fired
so he can get out of his contract. He's unhappy there.
I believe he probably wants to go to TNA and
try and reunite with his brother. I think at one
time WWE would do everything they could to prevent that
from happening, because that could be some of a hot
act for TNA to maybe jump on. Is Ree and I,

(02:12:03):
you know, the Hardy Boys, But I guess I believe
now that they've seen Jeff Hardy, they've seen Rob van
Dam and TNA and ratings haven't moved and ty rates
are just as poor as ever, they're probably less inclined
to believe that a Hardy Boys reunion is going to
be a big boost to TNA. And at some point,
I Hardy probably will be released or let out of
his contract, but it certainly seems like he's doing everything

(02:12:24):
he can try and get out of it.

Speaker 2 (02:12:27):
Yeah, Johnny another a question to follow.

Speaker 23 (02:12:30):
Yeah, without saying I don't know if you guys want
to say they're spoilless for.

Speaker 9 (02:12:33):
SmackDown, but they're you know, they're with the returns coming SmackDown.

Speaker 2 (02:12:36):
H he has no you guys think, what do you
guys think.

Speaker 23 (02:12:39):
Of any future plans for that where they're going to
go with that storyline?

Speaker 7 (02:12:42):
Uh? Yeah, we won't.

Speaker 2 (02:12:43):
We won't mention the name because I think it's a
you know, it's a fairly uh it's a fairly surprise
worthy and newsworthy. Elements are smacked down well more so
than the unusual SmackDown spoilers, so you can almost see
it coming. Based on the video packages that WB has
put together a kind of documenting the the Caine Undertaker
storyline in the feud and their history, I imagine it's

(02:13:07):
going to lead to uh sort of you know, we
kind of saw on not a Champions where Undertaker was
a weekend state and Kane has the advantage. So I
imagine it's going to be the catalyst to get Undertaker
back to his strengthened position, to build up to that
rematch with with Kine, And that's kind of where I
think they're going with that, with that item that's gonna

(02:13:29):
happen on Friday SmackDown. That's I think that's kind of
what we've been waiting for. Is that what's going to
be the catalyst to get Undertaker back to a strengthened
position up against Caine. That's not the whole mythical storyline
of you know, Caine has stolen Undertaker's power and that
sort of thing. So I think that's where that's leading.
So a good question to bring up, Johnny. Good to
have you on the show. Appreciate your call. Let's go

(02:13:50):
to and grab another phone call before we get to
Pat McNeil's live Evince Center. This is another phone call
from the nine to one four area code. So let's
stay in nine one four and let's go to make
sure of the right the right nine one four here,
nine one four. Are you on the show? Welcome and
say your name where you're from.

Speaker 20 (02:14:07):
It's Lucas from New York.

Speaker 2 (02:14:09):
Hey, Lucas, what are you have first?

Speaker 4 (02:14:10):
There?

Speaker 2 (02:14:12):
All?

Speaker 21 (02:14:12):
Right?

Speaker 20 (02:14:12):
Well, my first question is you guys think Barrit should
have won the title at NC because it was obviously
you needed to win. Because now I look at what
is happening with next is they are in danger of
being dead. They're in the hands of Sena. Now, this
would have never happened if Barrett won the title at NC,
because it would have put them in a safe place

(02:14:32):
and it would have made people care about them again.
People love to say Barrett isn't ready to be champion,
or that the whole Nexus group is green and whatnot.
How would any of us truly know that is w W.
Lee isn't putting them in wrestling matches because they're just
attacking leakend and leak out and as guy and old.
So where are your thoughts on Barrett?

Speaker 2 (02:14:52):
Good question, Brian, Do you think they should have switched
to Barrett? And you know, do you think that would
have made a difference in terms of where they are
right now?

Speaker 6 (02:15:00):
I don't think it would have made a lot of difference.
I think I said this earlier in another call, the
difference maker with SummerSlam, when you know they had seen
it down two to one and he took a DDT
on the floor, came back and tend everybody seconds later,
and really I thought at that point killed the Nexus
and any equalmentum they had at that point. If if
they were going to keep going with us and put

(02:15:21):
the belt on Wade Barrit or whoever at Nighted Champions.
They needed to come out of summer sam Strong with
their momentum, and I think they didn't do that. And
there's very little chance that putting the title, which is
pretty much meaningless anyway, on a Nexus member, would have
helped revide that group. So I guess I'm not in
the opinion that given him a title run at this

(02:15:44):
point would have been any more noteworthy than just giving
another guy another title run that'll probably lose here relatively quickly.

Speaker 1 (02:15:51):
Anyway, anytime you're watching ww E Raher SmackDown or aw
Dynamite in particular, send us an email if you've got
thoughts on the show, or a topic you want us
to address or a question for us. Wadekeller Podcast at
PW torch dot com, Wadekeller Podcast at petwtorch dot com.
If there's anything else going on in pro wrestling that

(02:16:12):
you want us to address on our main podcast during
our Mailbank segments, that same email applies Wade Keller Podcast
at PW torch dot com. We invite that interaction. Let
us know what you think of what we're saying, and
let us know what you want us to talk about
and ask us specific questions. Wadekeller Podcast at PW Torch
dot com.

Speaker 19 (02:16:32):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:16:33):
I don't know that we'ever the right move is putting
the belts on Barrett again. It might come down to
whether this storyline I few has seen a turns out
to strengthen Nexus. I think when you're gonna want to
put the belt on Barrett is when he's kind of
a single guy and he's not surrounded by heels who

(02:16:54):
has you know, basically written off. I mean, just the
way Senor just dressed them down on wrong Uh. And
and like you said, Brian, the Summer Slam angle, it
really took the steam out of the Nexus, the group itself,
and the strength of that group. So I would say
that if you're gonna put that, if you're gonna switch
this out of the Barrett, I think it's gonna be
down the road. Uh, when he's away from Nexus and

(02:17:18):
he kind of stands out on his own and there's
a sense of him being a threat, and there's a
sense of him being a potential, uh, you know, top
level heel who everybody's kind of trying to knock down
as a champ. Maybe Faces are chasing after that title.
You can establish some quest storylines. I just don't think
the timing was right for Barrett right now. It's a

(02:17:39):
good thought, and it might turn out to be better
than putting about Don Orton if they don't really have
a strong program for him going forward. So uh, we'll
see about that. It's definitely a good thought to have.
Lupa's good question. We appreciate that. Down the last fifteen
minutes of the show, up and jump on the phone
lines and join the live cast. Give me at a

(02:18:00):
third in line right now. We have a couple people
on hold. I believe you will be second or third.
I'm going to join us on the show right now,
and then I'm gonna call it six four, six seventy one, nine,
eight to eight, and we'll get to your phone calls
after we go to the live event center. Brian, you
and are gonna hold on for an update with Pat
McNeil and I that we recorded earlier today. So let's

(02:18:21):
go ahead and try this out. Let's try a pre
produced McNeil live event center right now. We are now
joined by PDB towards calmer. Pat McNeil was the live
event centered update of the week, as well as a
quick discussion of last night's NXT and Monday's Raw. Pat
what jumped out at you from the last two last
two days of we programming this week.

Speaker 12 (02:18:43):
Well, I'm gonna jump up out of the Monday and
and from the ratings is they're in trouble, you know,
I mean, I didn't mind. I mean, I think the
Tina the stipulation is good because you know you'll get
one of You'll probably get both things happening. You'll probably
get end up with Seena twenty exus for a short
period of time, and then next is breaking up, which

(02:19:03):
would be the way I'd expect them to do it
because you have starlines like that, or you kind of
have the stupid ending because you can't really you can
force johnsona to be a nexus that you know, you
can't force them to be a loyal a loyal number
of the team unless that's what he wants say. That's
sort of a problem with that. Yeah, the two main
matches they had set up for for how All the

(02:19:25):
Cell are basically the same match as we've seen except
their NFL and uh, I mean I don't know what
they I'm guessing that they have something planned for Undertaker
and Kane and that will be the uh the grand finale.

Speaker 8 (02:19:36):
Of the show.

Speaker 12 (02:19:37):
And based on what we uh, based on what we've
heard on the SmackDown spoilers, there's a there's there's an
added twist that's going to be involved in that match,
and I don't want to give more away than that,
so that we again you have Orton versus Seamus, which
there's there's no reason why that shouldn't be a good match,
and that would probably you would think, be to blow
off of the feud right there, at least for now,

(02:19:59):
not you would think so. Yes, And of course next
week will you follow up with Chris Jericho as as
to what happens with him and his match with Randy.
Orton said that I don't I mean that part of
the show was okay. The rest of the show, the
mid card stuff, it doesn't seem like, I mean, outside
of the Daniel Brian and the Miz, it doesn't seem

(02:20:21):
like they have anything that's ready to bust through the
next level, and they are not yet. They seem to
like Daniel Brian, but they are not fully behind him.
Probably because he's in their mind he's too small and
he looks like a geek. I mean, that's I mean,
I mean, but maybe that's not the case.

Speaker 3 (02:20:37):
I mean, I mean, I did, like you, they gave him.

Speaker 8 (02:20:40):
They gave him good entrance music.

Speaker 12 (02:20:42):
And you know, whatever you say about righting the dochtarries,
it's it's good entrance music. So yeah, NFD was. If
CM Punk kavin't been out there, it just would have
been awful. I mean, they are. They are just completely
out of reasons for doing this show other than somebody's
paying him to do it. And I've heard that obviously
the tape next week and next I don't know who

(02:21:04):
did commentary, but the content of next week's show sounds
like a train wreck. Can't wait.

Speaker 2 (02:21:10):
Yeah, I hope Long's on commentary next week. Otherwise, like
you said, I think they have a distant EVA contest,
which we all we all have fond memories from right
the Neva search contest, so that that's train wreck ritten
all over.

Speaker 12 (02:21:23):
Yeah, I mean, the love the best part of NXT
was was Punk completely burying the entire the entire show
and sounded like he was having a good time doing it.
And then then Cole came out and joined in, and
Cole got to make fun of Striker, which I thought
was good. But yeah, yeah, I mean it's you know,
I'm not upset about this show leaving the airway.

Speaker 2 (02:21:41):
No, no, I'm not either, Pat White, Evince Center. What
do we have coming up this week?

Speaker 12 (02:21:47):
Well, the pre tape Live Event Center, let's get down
to it. Tomorrow night Study WA Superstars on WG and America.
Another huge main event James, the epic Titanic rematch between
gold Dust and Will Regal faersbout that. Then, of course
TN a impact on TV. It's tomorrow heights, nine pm
Eastern Boylty Show. We have uh Rod van Dam will

(02:22:10):
be there and hopefully he'll give another fantastic promo. Uh
and the featured matches Rob Terry versus Abyss match which
everybody's been looking forward to, and the epic ladder match
a TV champion aj Styles taking on Saboo in a
ladder match. It with these extracipulations, don't worry, but it's

(02:22:31):
it sounds like quite the spectacle. I don't know how
it will be because you always hear, you know, you
always hear from the people who go to TN a impact.
You know people who sending the results, Oh that was great,
and that appears on TV and it wasn't great. Red
to the SmackDown? Will they gets final appears on My
Network TV, James on this Friday Night and boy they
going out with the banks the The featured matches are

(02:22:53):
the twelve Heavyweight Champion Kane taking on Chris Pasters and
the Inner Tontinmental Champion. Golf said will be meeting MVP,
but they do. They do set up next week. They
do get you excited about next week's show and the
big sci Fi debut where it appears Ray Mysterio will

(02:23:14):
be back and John Tena will be playing a visit.
And there's a twist at the end of Stackdown on
Friday Night, sort of a cliffhanger, so watch for that.
T and An has House shows this weekend James. Tomorrow night,
they are in Oklahoma City with Kurrent Angle versus Rick
Flair and Samojo versus a Jay Styles. But the same time,
the D Crew will be at the Hammerstigon Ballroom in

(02:23:34):
Manhattan where Jeff Party will be taking on Ken Anderson
and we'll have the long awaited epic monsters ball match
between Tommy Dreamer and the Byss. Friday Night will be
at the Rala Arena in Philadelphia. It is Ken Anderson
versus Abyss and Tommy Dreamer versus AJ Styles. Saturday Night
will be in Ralway, New Jersey at the evol Ralway

(02:23:56):
Rec Center, where it will be a special fourway match
Jeff Hardy versus Under versus The Best Versus Ken Anderson,
and Bottle by. Nick Bowley will be appearing on all
three Northeast shows this weekend as a special guest referee
UH and James I Know You're Excited. Dragging at USA
has two big shows this weekend. This Saturday, they'll be
taping The Untouchable twenty ten pay per view UH in Chicago,

(02:24:18):
the featured doubts but That's pay per view, Dragon Kid
versus Shingo in a big grudge match. Also in a
dark match, the ww United States Champion Brian Danielson will
be taking on Yamato and what I guess is a
non titled out. The next day, they will be in
Milwaukee a two pm taping for the Way of their
Ronan DVD. Featured bouts Brian Danielson versus John Moxley, and

(02:24:44):
of course the dragon Gate six man tags that everybody loves.
It will be be the Hulk, the Side of the
Seen and er if you do against Shingo Yamato and
Akira Tozala RH on HDN Monday Night a six man
main event. There it will be the new RH champion,
Rodrick Strong and his mediocre Tank team partners the House
of Truth taking on the Polling Eagle, Christoph Daniels and

(02:25:04):
Briffcrow Brothers. But of course Monday Night Long, which of
course was taken in Midianapolis. But the big matchups on
Monday Night Law John Tina versus Dad Ran Horton versus
Chris Jerco And on NXT Duday Night no wrestling matches whatsoever.

Speaker 2 (02:25:20):
Pack to you, James. There you go. That was Pat
me Neil with the Live event Center for this week.
Good have Pad's voice on the air today. We'll try
to be doing this on a regular basis. To get
Pat in a pre produced audio portion of the show
to break down the live event Center, Brian, let's go
in and grab some some more phone calls. About five

(02:25:41):
or six minutes left in the show, so let's go
to two more callers and let's start off with the
seven three four Eerie code seven three four. Welcome to
the show. Please thank you name where you're from?

Speaker 6 (02:25:52):
How you doing?

Speaker 7 (02:25:52):
It's good from Michigan?

Speaker 2 (02:25:54):
Hey Greg? What's going on today? Not too much?

Speaker 7 (02:25:57):
A couple of quick things. First, well, really cool. You know,
holding two titles, you can't even distinguish which one is
a fake one, which one is the real one.

Speaker 2 (02:26:07):
The announcers don't tell you nothing.

Speaker 7 (02:26:09):
So who's to say. You know, Seam is ain't happy
he loses his title. W he just go to ww
shots to come out on wrong with a fake title
the next night.

Speaker 2 (02:26:18):
Yeah, they have turned that the whole women's division title
situation to a joke. Britt Brtt, what's your take on
on where that is? And you know, what can they
do with the women's division going forward? I mean both
belts or one belts or I don't even I don't
even quite understand what they're doing with you the labels

(02:26:39):
for the belts, but with all the titles on SmackDown,
what can they do with that division in general and
also on Raw.

Speaker 6 (02:26:49):
You know, it's really kind of a forgotten the division
right now.

Speaker 15 (02:26:53):
They're they're not.

Speaker 6 (02:26:53):
Interested in really doing anything with it other than kind
of making a joke or a mockery of it, and
you know the fact that you've got the unified belt,
but it could be defended by either person.

Speaker 2 (02:27:04):
You know.

Speaker 6 (02:27:04):
It's almost like the old freebird rules and the taking
division and where three, any two members of the three
could could defend it. It's it's something that they're not
taking real seriously at this point. They never have and
I don't expect that they will. You know, maybe when
when Beth Phoenix comes back from her injury, they may
get a little bit more serious about it, but I
think at this point they're they're willing to just treat

(02:27:26):
it as it is right now, not not seriously, more
as comedy and more as a joke than anything.

Speaker 2 (02:27:33):
And it's unfortunate. I mean, I think I don't know
if it's just the whole you know, the stable and
the China situation when they really don't want to get
behind one women's wrestler and feature that that wrestler, or
if it's the injuries. I mean, Moline has been down
this year, BET's Phoenix has been down. Mchole's at her injuries.

(02:27:54):
You know, I don't know if it's one of those
things where they just they just don't have confidence in
the division. They don't believe it's a draw on TV.
I just I don't know what it is. They just
if they're not going to do a win's division, they
just don't have one. Uh, it's just not worth the time,
frustrating viewers who actually want to root for women's wrestling. Uh,

(02:28:14):
sort of be tantalized by the idea of having a
pretty good crop of talent, Gail Kim Natalia. Uh, you know,
they had Kaylie Burchell earlier this year, Mickey James as well,
and just not utilizing them. It's just sort of a
it's a waste of everybody's time. It's either get behind
it or dropping. And that's kind of where they are
right now. God get any other a question or follow up?

Speaker 7 (02:28:37):
Yeah, real quick on that.

Speaker 4 (02:28:39):
My main point was keep on with one title, let
them both defend it.

Speaker 7 (02:28:42):
It's just having two titles you can't even tell them
which one is a fake one. That just bothers me
a little bit. But moving on, Michael Parl Trash and
the Heart Dynasty. I think they're already boring enough and
bland enough, and then for them to you know, the
baby faces, you get them on TV and it's like,
were they even one that I was gonna get all
the huish on them because they didn't even have any

(02:29:02):
comebacks or nothing for him.

Speaker 2 (02:29:04):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that segment. Gosh, that that was just
such a weird segment, right, what's kind of reaction. I
have a lot of different thoughts on this. I want
to I want to feel you out first on what
your thoughts were on that segment with Hart Dynasty on commentary.
The match wasn't even focused on with Kobe Rhades and
Drew mcintiregans I guess was with Santino and Coslop. Michael

(02:29:27):
Cole was doing his heel stick on the Heart Dynasty
and their performance on commentary, which that's a whole other topic.
What was your reaction to that? And we're gonna try
to do with that.

Speaker 6 (02:29:38):
Well, you know, overall reaction is they are another team
that has not benefited from this youth movement. They kind
of brought them up to a certain level, not even
mid card status level, but these are guys that have
a lot of talent and could be big stars. I think,
you know, Tyson Kidd certainly was because a great in
ring performer or could be especially matched with the right
guy n and Harry Smith. His dad was a huge

(02:30:02):
star for WWE as a tag team that they wanted
to push a tag team division. These are guys that
you could build that division around and give some credibility to.
But you know, Jaeus, they were champions and Kane destroyed
both of them no problems, so that made them look
like jobbers. They looked like goofs in this segment as well.
There's really a lack of push towards tag teams, a

(02:30:22):
lack of push to these guys as far as younger
guys and pushing them to the main event level. There's
a lot of guys that have been tag teams because
they didn't couldn't get over as individual stars that became
huge tag team stars. And you look back at venturing
Adonnas back in the old AWA of singularly not big stars,
but together they were world champions and drawing champions for

(02:30:44):
the AWA.

Speaker 2 (02:30:47):
Greg, we appreciate that call things for joining with some
live casts. Want to go and plug pdb Torch dot
com for all the way his news and breaking news
and analysis going on and wrestling on a daily basis.
Like I said, the top of the show stories, Mickey,
James raw Rady and Shelton Benjamin talking about w as
well as Torch VIP members access to this week's Torch
newsletter in PDF format right now. You can access that

(02:31:10):
if you're not a VIP member pbetorch dot com slash
go vip for all the subscription information. Want to thank
everyone for listening, to stay on the live cast and
stay tuned tomorrow for Greg and Wade Keller, Thanks again
for listening.

Speaker 15 (02:31:37):
Thank you for using blog talk radios.

Speaker 6 (02:31:40):
Goodbye.

Speaker 24 (02:31:46):
Longing for some nostalgia or maybe you want to learn
some wrestling history, don't miss the Nineties Past cast every
Friday on the PW Torch Daly Cast Feed. Alex and
Patrick will transport you thirty years into the past by
taking you through the Torch issue from that very week.
Follow news from the WWF and WCW and all the

(02:32:07):
happenings from across the wrestling industry in real time as
The Torch reported it thirty years ago. That's the nineties
Pass cast every Friday on the PW Torch Daily Cast Feed.

Speaker 2 (02:32:26):
All right, Brian's gonna go and stick around for the
VP after show. A port from the show. What a
good discussion today. And I believe, if I'm not mistaken,
we do not have a single P and a topic
during the live cast today. Did that this one?

Speaker 12 (02:32:43):
No?

Speaker 6 (02:32:43):
Yeah, I didn't hear your rants on TVA, so Mu's
not a bad one.

Speaker 15 (02:32:47):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (02:32:48):
That leads us into actually the really good segue, because
that leads us into something that I wanted to talk
with you about today with Arvidy's promo from Thursdays and
packed and Bruce Mitchell talked about this in the Mitchell
Audio on Friday. We were talked about this earlier this
week in the live cast. Have you seen a sort

(02:33:11):
of your ears of watching wrestling and knowing the history
of it, has there been a worse Babyface promo? And
and and who have been some some really bad Babyface promos?
And how do you guys gonna affect RVD as a
drawing tena or whatever that whatever that means in twenty
ten where the booking is so just out there that

(02:33:36):
it's really hard for an individual star to stand outs
unless they're you know, just really catch fire. But Rbody's promo,
uh just kind of compare it to some some other
really bad promo guys historically, either Babyface or even heel,
And it's just your perspective on that promo.

Speaker 3 (02:33:55):
You know.

Speaker 6 (02:33:56):
I think you have to classify why it was so bad.
I mean, you'll have guys if you want to look back,
Like Tim Horner comes to example, because I've seen a
lot of Smoking Mountain lately and he was there. Couldn't
cut a promo to save his life. To build up
the match. He stuttered and stammered in front of the
microphone and just never really said of anything that you
could understand or put together to build up a match.

(02:34:19):
That's one thing, But here you've got RVD completely ignoring
anything that's happened in the past. As far as his
beat down and his subsequent reason that he's been off
TV for a while, he completely ignored it. He should
be trying to build up that feud with the Bist
to gain revenge and then to build up to his
regaining the quest for his title. I mean, those are

(02:34:40):
your storylines, and he never talked about any of those.
So it's one thing just to be a poor talker
in front of the microphone, and that's usually what we
refer to when we talk about bad promos, and it's
another for a guy to just have no clue about
what he's trying to do and just be completely in
his character of you know, he's an easygoing guy, and
that would have been the perfect time for him to

(02:35:01):
break that type of character and develop more of a
hard edge type of RVD that we haven't seen before
that of it actually freshen up his character and allow
him to go after with a vengeance for against the bits,
for the injuries that he's had, and maybe even you know,
speak out against TNA management for scripting him of the
title when he's coming back on the same pay per

(02:35:22):
view that we're going to get a new champion. So
there's there's so many storylines he could have went with,
and he chose to ignore them all, and that I
think is really the the crux of his problem and
why it was such a terrible babyface promo. In here,
it was a guy that completely blew his opportunity to
get over his his events and angles. And I guess

(02:35:43):
from what I've read on spoilers, there's another one coming
up on Thursday night just as bad.

Speaker 2 (02:35:49):
Yeah, and that's the Ring, the n Ring promo. I mean,
this was bad as a phone call. Now there's gonna
be in person. I can just picture it, you know,
without even really having to see I can picture him
just kind of pausing to get a pop from the
crowd and uh, just kind of like yeah, all right,
say something, yeah, okay, cool. You know, it's just like

(02:36:09):
just totally out of tune with the story one and
I understand it. It doesn't make sense. T and A
doesn't have a sense of tasting or consequence. I mean,
but Bess should be in jail for all the things
that he has done on TV over the last five
four or five months, in terms of being a heel

(02:36:31):
and destroying people and all the things that he's done.
He should be in jail. And in TNA's context, they
don't treat it like it's a big deal. It's just
another thing that he does and there's just no consequences.
There's no sense of anyone who's outraged by his actions.
So in that sense, I almost get it. Whoever you
need it just has no clue as that.

Speaker 6 (02:36:52):
A present this promo, right, Yeah, you know you think
back to the old nostalgia day, go back to the
guy in your promotion Awa, you know, when Brody came
in and attacked Greg Gania and Jim Brunzell and burned
Gania and Wally Carbo was going to suspend them all,
you know, sustend Brody and he'd have Greg Gania out there,
who was pretty mild mannered, would be so emotionally charged.

(02:37:13):
Don't suspend him. I wanted fighting, and that was the
build up for the revenge for the Ganias to make
their baby face come back against bruise of Brody in there.
And that's been done time and time again over history.
You know, Bill Watts was was a good one for
doing that. He would want to suspend somebody, you know,
maybe a Jim Cornett for his actions, and then the
baby face would beg him. Know, we want to get

(02:37:34):
our own revenge. Don't suspend him. If you do, then
we can't get our revenge. And that's your your basic
one on one booking. Your your baby face needs to
get his revenge against the heel and Rob van Dam
completely blew it in this instance, and I.

Speaker 2 (02:37:49):
Don't imagine they'll ever be in a position to recover it.
Just the audience doesn't care, because I mean to me,
if you're still there watching that and you're either really
turned away from the product, because it just looks so
gory and and cheap and low rent and just not
something you want to watch on your TV wrestling show,

(02:38:10):
or you just laugh at it because it is sort
over the top and cheesy and low rent that you
don't take it seriously. You especially don't take it seriously
because there's no consequences and anything Abyss is doing, there
are no consequences when when Desmond Wolf you know, ran
over Abyss and you kind of kind of, you know,
got that slap on the wrist that they just kind

(02:38:31):
of threw out there in a pay per view. Uh, So,
you know, it doesn't do anything for the product, doesn't
do anything for the audience engrossing themselves in the story.
It turns people away one in two ways, either because
it's so laughable or it's just so low rent that
they're never gonna be able to salvage this. And Arbady's
promo was the final nail in the coffin of a

(02:38:53):
really bad storyline and he hasn't even really come back
to TV yet and we're gonna see that on Thursday show.
So just a mess, just no direction on you know,
sometimes you're gonna sit down and tut and say, okay this,
you know, this might not make any sense. This might
go against your character, or at least you're the way
that you present your character, which is you're kind of
too cool for school. But you really need to ratchet

(02:39:16):
up for this, and this is an important storyline we're
trying to get over. We're trying to get you a
little bit more serious. We're trying to make ABYSS seem
like a stronger heel. We're trying to do some different things,
and you might not agree with that. It might not
make sense, it might not sit your character, but at
least do this promo this way. That isn't there No
one is telling RBD this is the way you need

(02:39:37):
to do this problem to get this storyline. There's just
a general lack of direction and a vision and someone
to be that vincent man and say, you know what.
You might not agree with that, but this way we're
trying to take this storyline. This is where we're trying
to take this feud. You need to do it this way.
You know, there isn't that agent back there who's guiding
that person on exactly how it's supposed to come across.

(02:40:00):
Almost as they go too far into that territory of okay,
everybody gets to do their own thing, be who you
want to be or all one big, happy family. There's
no creative restrictions. You just do what you want to do.
At some point, you got to sit there and say,
what are we trying to do as a group, as
a unit, as a company, as a company with a

(02:40:20):
rustling product? What is our vision? What is our goal?
You know, how did the individual characters fit into a unique, universal,
company wide vision for the product? Didn't I just don't
get a sense they have any of that, that they
have any idea of where they're going.

Speaker 6 (02:40:38):
And that's what it's so frustrating, right this is where
they really miss a guy like a Jim Cornette or
even Dutch Mantel who used to be on their booking team,
that they would recognize some of this and insert some
logic into it. And you don't have that folk right
now that everybody talks about that Vince Russo had when
you booked for Vince McMahon, because McMahon would would say

(02:40:58):
stuff and correct these things before it aired on TV.
And you don't have that filter system anymore. And you
can really see some of the problems have been through
so running the wrestling company as the head booker exactly.

Speaker 2 (02:41:12):
Yep, it's obvious that they missed those type of characters,
or not characters, but those personalities backstage. I really don't
have a good feel of where Jeff Scher is as
a power broker in T and A. People say that
he has a little bit more power, some people say
he's just a talent out with a little bit of
influence backstage. So kind of fitsy you talked to. But

(02:41:35):
I'm not gonna say that that he's ever really had
a unique vision for the product. But I think he
would at least help in those areas it's got a
little bit more say what's going on. I think it
would help, maybe not a lot, but at least throw
some ideas out there to make people think, because this
regime has not shown the ability to put together a

(02:41:56):
vision for what they want to do. It's a good
points on that bright nostalgia. Let's give you some nostalgia
news and notes. You have your Nostalgia newsletter and this
week's give me Towards newsletter, and you actually kind of
talk a lot about the independent contractor versus employee classification
and a real big hot topic in the news the
previous couple of weeks. You also have some notes on

(02:42:19):
Sting and his son, Stan Hansen's son Jim Brunzell, and
an upcoming Rustling Legends dinner Brian Good and talk about
what you have on those topics in this week's Towards newsletter.

Speaker 6 (02:42:32):
Yeah, you know, we'll touch on them kind of kind
of briefly here. But we did talk about the independent
contractors status that I went to the IRS website and
got some their guys minds about what they're what they're
trying to do as far as are the independent contractors
are the employees, And you can't classify wrestlers just as
one or the other. It really depends upon your circumstances.

(02:42:52):
And I think I read a quote from somewhere in
WW that about wrestlers having the choice, and that's, you know,
so far from the truth. They certainly don't had the
choice of which one they want to be classified at.
It's how they are dictated by the way they are paid,
by the way they are treated by the company. Stingsn
is playing some college football. He I think this is
the son that Kurt Angle was involved with. The Angle

(02:43:16):
a couple of years ago when they were building up
up a match for Bound for Glory. He's at ZUSA
Pacific College now playing football sophomore running back that I
think the only NFL player to come out of a
ZUSA Pacific was Christian mcoye who played for the Chiefs
for a few years that probably in late eighties, early nineties.
So useless, useless trivia there and the pause you.

Speaker 2 (02:43:38):
Are there, I mean I was. That was one of
the colleges I was considering going to was as a
specific and I know a lot of people that went there,
and I had my brother considered going there. You think,
like go there stuff. Yeah, it's a it could have
been an interesting resting connection if I knew enough people
that went there. But so I know a lot of

(02:43:59):
people cansidered going there, and I myself and my brother did.
It's a good school, so I've been there many a time.
Just going to add to a personal flavor to that story.
So yeah, good right.

Speaker 6 (02:44:11):
There was another football wrestling connection. Yesterday or last night,
the Vikings signed Hank Basket from the Eagles. He was
released by Eagles and signed to the Vikings and expect
to play ride receiver for him. His wife is somewhat
of a celebrity I guess named Kendra Wilkinson, and her
bodyguard is former wrestler nWo member of Scott Flash Norton.

(02:44:35):
So there's a little wrestling football connection there too.

Speaker 2 (02:44:39):
I yeah, because my wife watches Kendrick's show, and so
I've seen a lot of hanging masks over the years
on that show. I wasn't where the north was the
bodyguard does. That's a pretty good, pretty good connection there,
So yeah, that's good.

Speaker 1 (02:44:53):
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(02:45:13):
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Speaker 6 (02:45:26):
You know, and one thing James, I was going to
bring up I'm surprised and none of our callers had
brought up wash And maybe nobody likes the UFC, but
there's been a lot of talk in the news because
there's been some NFL substance abuse policy failures here recently.
Calesunnon has been basically suspended by UFC and the California

(02:45:48):
Athletic Commission, and you know, he's cost himself a several
million dollars pay day. Looks like this, he's going to
be out of the title picture for probably close to
a year for failing a via steroid tests this week.

Speaker 2 (02:45:59):
Yeah uh, you know he kind of hit hit me
as a a Detections fan with our left tackle being
suspended for what he claims was an unwell in tummy
exact corporate speak verbig He's he issued in a statement
but basically unwillingly or unknowingly took a supplement with I

(02:46:20):
guess gosh, I can't remember this. I read it twice,
but basically unknowingly took a p d H. He's been suspended,
So what I mean, what what do you attribute to him?
There's so much knowledge out there, then there's there's stronger tests,
especially in the NFL. And uh, you know, some people
say there is a problem with p D s and MMA.
Some people say there isn't. What's your take on where

(02:46:41):
this is kind of hitting some mainstream sports, which could
certainly be related to wrestling. We don't really hear too
much about wellness policy violations for steroid use or p
D but at least not recently. But how do you
think that the story affects wrestling being from the NFL?

Speaker 6 (02:47:02):
And yeah, you mentioned the Texans left tackle. Wasn't Brian
Cushing as an He is still suspended for his performance
enhancing drug use. He was caught. There was a yeah,
two more games ago. Of course, the Vikings had the
pat and Kevin Williams had a ban diuretic in their
system that they're fighting in court. There was a I
think a Tampa Bay buccaneer came out today. He was

(02:47:24):
suspended four games last week last year and then got
caught again this year, so now he's suspended for the
rest of the season. I believe he was their starting
safety if I remember right. But you know, it's certainly
a problem, and you look at MMA and the way
their tests are structured. They they're not tested until the
day of the fight, so anytime you know when you're

(02:47:46):
going to be tested, there's ways to beat that test.
And most guys will take some type of a substance
or a steroid during the time that they're training or
cutting weight or whatever, and then they'll quit soon enough
that they can get it out of their system. And
it's kind of on a timing type scale, so you know,

(02:48:06):
you don't want to take something that's going to lag
in your system for six to nine months, but there
is steroids out there that can clean out of your
system within a week.

Speaker 12 (02:48:14):
To fifteen days.

Speaker 6 (02:48:15):
And most of these guys that are taking something are
doing it from the time that they begin training camp
or even before taking it. That way, they decrease their injuries,
or if they are injured, they can come back a
little bit quicker, they're a little bit stronger, and then
they get off of it when it gets close to
time fight time and comparaively, cale sun and either mistimed

(02:48:36):
it or his body kind of reacted to it and
then clear the system that in the time that he
thought it would. And you know, I think there's more
guys that are doing it than what we have found
out because it is kind of a joke. When you're
an MMA fighter, if you know the day that you're
going to be tested, it shouldn't be that hard to.

Speaker 8 (02:48:56):
Beat a test.

Speaker 6 (02:48:57):
And if in wwe like now under their policy to
beat a test for performance enhancing drugs. They've changed this
now because of the soulmas, but to be performance enhancing
drugs you have to have a doctor's prescription, you know.

Speaker 2 (02:49:10):
You think back to christ.

Speaker 6 (02:49:11):
Den Wah he had a testosteron level of fifty nine
to one, which is a huge violation, except he was tested,
failed to test three times, but had a doctor's prescription
for it. Therefore was he never suspended or had a
wellness policy violation. So there's a lot more than we
think that's going on in MMA, probably NFL, or any

(02:49:34):
competitive sport, and it's just some guys are getting caught
because of you know, just bad timing where their body
doesn't respond they thought it in the way they thought
it would.

Speaker 2 (02:49:47):
In my thought has always been to test that person
throughout the training camp, throughout the build up to the fight.
You know, well you can't, just like you said, if
you know the day, you can work around it. If
you're really that if you're really going to take that approach,
which I think is immoral. Uh, but if you're gonna
take that approach, it would it would help create more

(02:50:08):
of a balanced playing field if people were tested and
the fighters were tested throughout the camp, uh, throughout the
build up to the fight, not just on one day,
not just you know, a week after the fight, but
you know, you know, three months in advance, two months
in advance, and having to be random. I don't know
what's kind of brought up on it. We was on

(02:50:29):
the ESPN's MM Live show a couple I guess last month.
They had Bobby last year on that episode. That's why
I was watching that episode.

Speaker 9 (02:50:37):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (02:50:37):
They talked about that would be the way to help
circumvent that because it is a real issue. It's a
real issue in wrestling and football and in virtually any
sport where there's a competition, there's a there's a uh,
there's a temptation to get that edge. Baseball, I mean,
minor leaguers are busted. It seems like every year we

(02:50:59):
at least have at least you know, five, ten to
fifteen guys who are busted for pe or steroid used
because they're looking for an edge. It's just the nature
of competition or how guys believe they can get that
edge into competition. So they and then they've got to
test where frequently It's got to be during the build up,
during the camps, not the day of the fight. Only
that's just that's just such a way out. Uh, you know,

(02:51:23):
it's not efficient. And if if the promotions are really
concerned about it, they will pay to have their fighters
tested in advance. It won't be the day of when
you know, the Athletic Commission uh sort of is required
to do it. No, no't voll no, have the fighters
and they will pay to have those fighters tested and
on their own dime on UFC, the dime on Strike

(02:51:44):
Force a dime if they really are that concern about it.
So otherwise that jo that the.

Speaker 6 (02:51:50):
Show that was in Houston, they didn't have any commission testing.
Strike Force didn't do testing. To the commission in Texas
didn't do any testing either. And right now, if it's
falling back on the commissioned shoulders, and of course it
gets down to a money issue. They don't have the
money to test fighters throughout the year. It's going to
have to come back down to Strike Force or the
UFC or to whoever. And you know, when you when

(02:52:12):
you start talking about that, you go back to WW
of course as the comparison. They're supposed to be regulating
and testing themselves, and that's a complete farce as well.
So it's not a perfect system right now, You're exactly right.
They should be testing throughout the training camp for these
wrestlers so that they cannot be on something and then
get off of it and try and time these issues.

(02:52:34):
And you know, quite frankly, if Cale Sunnon would have won,
I think it would have been a much bigger issue.
If he would have beat Anderson Stiva and be walking
around as a champion right now, then a guy who
was looking for a rematch, it.

Speaker 2 (02:52:47):
Would almost be like the heel champion winsday outside interference
and he's claiming to be the real champion. You know,
if you're trying to apply to a Rustle analogy, it
seems like it's an indictment of still with you to say, well,
this guy was on seloid and he's still was, uh,
you know, so that I don't know, that's who knows.

(02:53:08):
Maybe that that would deter some people from from using,
but I don't think it will. Yeah, great, great topic
to bring up brandsom. Well, we're gonna talk about that
since it's in the news, and for for more coverage
of that, go to MMA towards dot com where Jamie
Pennock has lots of great coverage of that story. Well,
we don't have a flashback today. We hopefully we'll get

(02:53:30):
to twenty years ago flash We'll obviously have one next week,
I believe. Wait, we'll be posting those flashbacks later today,
so we will get the twenty years ago on next
week's live cast. We'll have some fascinating twenty years ago
stories and results of news to discuss on next week's
live cast.

Speaker 6 (02:53:48):
So I enjoy talking about that.

Speaker 2 (02:53:51):
So that would be great if we can.

Speaker 8 (02:53:52):
We can do that next week.

Speaker 2 (02:53:53):
Definitely, I think we definitely will. Should be Ah, I'm
sure from from nineteen nineties, from nineteen ninety, this September
August nineteen ninety is fascinating time and sort of a
transition period for wrestling kind at the beginning of transition period.
So doesn't let's talk about on next week's live cast.
Brian thinks again as always for me on the show

(02:54:15):
today before we wrap up.

Speaker 6 (02:54:18):
We'll be doing new audio show tomorrow, so that'll be
posted sometime tomorrow afternoon.

Speaker 3 (02:54:23):
Excellent.

Speaker 2 (02:54:25):
In a preview of what what you and George Power
and me talking about, we.

Speaker 6 (02:54:29):
Are going to talk about in kind of the rep
Farv mentality right now, where a veteran guy comes in
and doesn't help the team. We're talking about veteran wrestlers
who come into a territory and that failed as a run.
And also we'll be talking about guys who a veteran
wrestler came into a territory and sparked a new run.
And maybe that's the Jim Tomy theme of the program

(02:54:54):
for the you know, for the Twins, they're winning the
Central Division.

Speaker 2 (02:54:56):
Last night, we'll be talking about Little Ale Central victory talk.
So good, good, good discussion there.

Speaker 15 (02:55:03):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (02:55:04):
By the way, I don't know if a lot of
people know this, but George is a usher for the
Twins during at their home stands during the day, so
he was working last night and today and and uh
we'll probably get his thoughts on being there for the
clinching games in the program tomorrow.

Speaker 2 (02:55:21):
Excellent, Very good, Brian, thanks again for being on the
show today. That is Torch. Nostalgic commas Brian oops and
this is Torch, says an editor James Bodwell. Sign it off.

Speaker 1 (02:55:48):
Invite you to email the show with feedback or questions
or comments. That email address is Wade Keller Podcast at
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Speaker 25 (02:56:11):
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Speaker 16 (02:58:46):
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