15 YRS AGO LIVECASTS: Samoa Joe re-signs with NXT, Cena-Nexus angle, Miz's mainstream media blitz, ROH Final Battle, AWA demise reflections

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
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(00:21):
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(00:43):
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Speaker 2 (01:06):
Now, PW Torch and Speaker bring you the Wade Keller
Pro Wrestling Podcast.

Speaker 1 (01:15):
On today's Way Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast, we jump back
fifteen years to back to back episodes from Friday December seventeenth,
twenty ten and Monday December twentieth, twenty ten. First up,
James Caldwell joined by PW Torch Nostalgie columnist Brian Hoops
to talk with live callers about news of Simojoe re
signing with TNA, the TLC pay perview, The Miz Everywhere,
with the discussion of his interviews and character, and also

(01:38):
booking him to Wrestlminga twenty seven S champion John Cena,
and Nexus's future after TLC. Plus Sean Radikin called in
early on to discuss ROH Final Battle twenty ten, ROH
in general, and Dragon gait Usa. Then in the previously
VIP exclusive after show portion of the show, they talked
about whether WWE would put a world title on Alberto

(01:58):
de Rio, cantability of stars in pro Wrestling and MMA,
and also we'll look back at the twenty years ago
Torch newsletter, including a discussion then of the imminent demise
of the AWA. Then on the December twentieth, twenty ten episode,
James are joined by Bruce Mitchell. They talked to live
callers about the previous night's TLC pay per view, the

(02:18):
state of WWE business Live crowd reactions at TLC and
how the overall audience was taking the product that night's
Raw and where they would go from there with John
Cena and the Nexus Group. Bruce got this prediction right.
Eric Bischoff's weekend debate also, was there ever a place
for chair shots to the head in pro wrestling? And more?
Lots of good topics covered in back to back episodes

(02:39):
here of our live call in show from fifteen years
ago this month and it is our flashback episode four
Friday December twenty sixth, twenty twenty.

Speaker 2 (02:47):
Five, you'll listening to the p tow torchs Lidcast. This
is P tow Torch is US and editor James Caldwell
posting today for Friday, December seventeen, twenty ten, Georgia Today
by towards Nostalgia colomaists Brian who we have a ton

(03:10):
to talk about Samoa, Joe and Sean Michaels and TLC
and Final Battle and Impact and the miz is everywhere.
I mean, Brian, this is an unusually super busy Friday
in December, on a pretty busy weekend. So what's kind

(03:30):
of jumped out of you this week? Is it something
that's gonna happen this weekend? Is it the Miz? I mean,
what's kind of been your your big headline story today
or this week?

Speaker 3 (03:40):
So I think you have to look at the Miz
right now. Since they put the belt on him, he's
been on a media blifts, so to speak. He's been
everywhere as far as promoting inside of when the championship,
he's really promoted that this is his dream come true.
Put himself on another level, and that's something that you
did not see Brandy Orton as a champion. You know,

(04:02):
you saw it's a big stent with John Tina, but
that's been done and rehashed so many times that this
still fresh and feels new, And there's a lot of
media outlets I don't think the w W could have
counted on that are picking up on Missus title win
and him becoming a champion and then relating back to
his time when he was on the Real World and
showing that he was a former reality star. So, you know,

(04:24):
I think this this push with THEMS is probably above
and beyond what the WWE expected in terms of media
coverage and getting some big spread name recognition for themselves
and for.

Speaker 4 (04:36):
Their new champion in the minute.

Speaker 3 (04:37):
So I think I think it was a great move
to put the belt on it.

Speaker 2 (04:41):
I mean, is this like we're looking at something that
has potential to be a big deal. I mean not
just like in terms of WE but in terms of
ww trying to reach out outside of their bubble, you know.

Speaker 4 (04:58):
I mean we're not add gen Era.

Speaker 2 (05:00):
There isn't this huge surgeon interest in wrestling, and there's
a ton of interest in MMA right now. I mean,
you had a major I mean it was a WC card.
It wasn't even the USC last night, but that thing
was all over Sports Center because of one thing, mister
Pettance with a little Ninja kig that everyone's talking about.
And so, I mean wrestling isn't anywhere near that level

(05:24):
of mainstream acceptance popularity. But I mean we're three weeks
into the miz as Champion and he is everywhere. I mean,
could this be big? You know, Brian, is this like
big or is it just kind of w big? How
big could this be?

Speaker 4 (05:42):
You know?

Speaker 3 (05:43):
It that's potentially something that they can use as a
game changer now, and that's really what they needed. They
needed something press, something that sparked the products sparked some
name recognition to get people talking about ww again. And
you know, this isn't isn't something that maybe is going
to attract a huge, huge fan base or bring back
fans that have left WWE and wrestling and have gone

(06:05):
to USC. But it is something that gets people talking
about wrestling and you see somebody different, and it's always
someone different, someone fresh, someone new. That's what sparks your
turnaround in business. And that's where you can look back
at history and go twenty thirty years back or however
far back you want to go. It's when that fresh
act came on and caught fire and that's what united

(06:28):
a promotion. And you know that's something WWE has not lacked,
has not had. You know, they've been lacking that for
a really long time now and it's something they've badly
been searching for. Finally have found it, I think here
in the miss And now it gets the point where
where do they go with him and how much length
do they give him, how they're they're gonna book in
the champions. They've done a terrible job with, for example,

(06:49):
a guy like Jack Flager as champion earlier this year.
They really put the legs out from underneath and never
gave any momentum. If they give some of them Miss here,
let him be champion at least up in the WrestleMania.
So the media continues until at least the spring.

Speaker 2 (07:04):
Yeah, I mean, I think that what you said the
media hype, and I think the way miss has handled himself,
they've got to keep develops on him until Mania. I mean,
there's there isn't that, you know, unless it's Triple H
returning or the Undertaker, they find an opponent for him,
some other major headline match. I think that they don't

(07:25):
have anything that would top Miss as sort of the
undeserving champion for five months and then you get that
maybe face Challenger and you set up the intrigue of
that match. I think that they've got to keep develops
on him, and the way he's handled himself has been tremendous.
And I want to read the quote that he said
it and casual what you said, Brian about just there
isn't any focus on you know, when it title change

(07:46):
his hand, nobody backs an eye. It's just it's become
to me it's such a hot shot, hot potato thing.
And here's a quote that he said, I believe this
was in a conference call transcribed by IG dot Com.
He said, I don't think anyone expected it, and I
certainly didn't expect it at all, referring to the mainstream
the mainstream coverage usually when titles changed, there isn't that

(08:06):
much media, so I wasn't expecting anything. He said, I
want people that normally don't talk about us and normally
don't see anything to us to come in and say,
you know, this kid has something. We want to talk
to him, and he's got a good story, so we
want to learn more. And it is legit. It's a
real life story. It's like a movie and I'm living it.
But when you hear that, I mean to me, I'm like,

(08:27):
the quest has been so lost for wrestling that it's
not a big deal and a title changed his hands anymore.
And that's why I think this is had so much
attention is because here's the miz who you know, played
around with the state title gut on in the real
world when the real word was relevant ten years ago,
and now he's not a huge champion. I mean, that

(08:48):
story rights itself and there's a quest, and that's why
there's so much attention on it, Whereas you know, Randy
Orton gets taught for a couple of weeks, when's the
title and nobody cares. Granted Norton's not. I like how
Paul Hymen phrased it a couple of months ago. He said,
you know, Borden is big in wrestling, but he's not
big out of wrestling, So that's a factor. But when

(09:08):
you don't have a quist, there's no sense of accomplishment.
And that's what's missing from w B and TNA And
why this is I think why this has stuck out
so much just because the story of missus quest.

Speaker 3 (09:19):
I think that's a good point that you're bringing up.
You know, his story here is selling itself. Plus he
has a guy who's very good on the mic. You know,
he's one of his biggest selling points is his ability
to talk. And you know, he can talk about himself.
He can become that swarmy heel that people want to
you know, learn about and then see get beat up
by somebody until he's he's playing a perfect keel role

(09:40):
right now. His character is fresh and have a really
solid character. And you know, as I said, and you
said too, they just have to carry let him carry
the ball, take carry the belt until you get to WrestleMania,
because quite frankly, they don't have anything else that would
even come close to comparing to how much media he's
getting and generating by being the champion here and getting

(10:02):
all this attention.

Speaker 2 (10:04):
Yep, we want to go ahead and jump the phone calls.
Have once and there were six people on hold already,
so let's uh go ahead and jump into phone calls.
With so much to talk about. Samoe with Joe where
he signed with TNA. I would definitely want to talk
about that during the live cast today.

Speaker 5 (10:19):
Sean Michaels with.

Speaker 2 (10:20):
His video updating his status and whatever. Yeah, I want
to say as some of his cryptic messages in here,
but he's sort of vague on a couple of different
things and and never didn't mention the Hall of Fame
as that sort of him being cooy. Uh, So we'll
talk Michael's final Battle the TLC pay per view, which
I will be at live here in Houston on Sunday night,

(10:42):
first pay per view in Houston since WrestleMania. So I'll
be kind of interested, I think, mainly to see what
they what they do in terms of attendance. Uh that
would be pretty fascinating to me. Uh So we'll talk
that and you know, while we're on the subject the
Final Battle, let's go ahead and bring in uh Torch
Calm and Sean Raddicky will get again, uh calling from
Sean here, we'll talk to some final battles. Sean, are

(11:04):
you with us? Yeah? How you guys doing doing good? Sean?
Of course we've got to take yeah to take a
final Battle of pay per view from Ring of Honor
on Saturday night from New York City. Again, this says,
this is towards Calm and Sean Radikin and Sean, you
just posted your blog, your Friday blog on the B
two B torchs dot com name listening Sean kind of
preview Final Battle this weekend. I mean to me, it's

(11:28):
I don't want to put up there at the same
levels as the TLC in terms of interest, but I
mean this is a great hype pay per view with
some really good matchups and the potential I would say,
in that potential match of the year with with Strong
and David Richards, depending on how that how much time
they get. Uh So, Sean, what are your talking points
coming into this pay per view.

Speaker 6 (11:48):
Yeah, you've got two potential matches the years on the
cut and one of the match you refrich with Richard
and Strong, which you know they've vestled before. They have chemistry,
and I think HD net has done a really good
job of building the big matches on the show. Like
you touched on, you always doesn't have the exposure, but

(12:11):
you know, given that they have, Yeah, they.

Speaker 3 (12:13):
Have a fan.

Speaker 6 (12:13):
If they're trying to convince these people to buy the show,
they could push up above what they've done before, maybe
hopefully over a thousand buys.

Speaker 2 (12:23):
So they've got that.

Speaker 6 (12:25):
Going on, and Generico and Strong as well should be
really good. I think a unsanctioned fight without honor in
the main event.

Speaker 2 (12:35):
Yeah, Sean, do you think that they're gonna pull the
trigger on putting the always settle on David Richards? You're
either gonna keep it on Strong.

Speaker 7 (12:45):
I don't have any feeling either way, but I don't know.
I kind of had a thing that they might.

Speaker 6 (12:53):
Put it on Richards if anything happens. I don't get
this sense that Strong is being built as a you know,
really any kind of for a long title reign, and
I'd like to see Richard's title rain on top with him,
just see if he can do with with what guys
like you know, Samoa Joe and Nidia McGinnis and did

(13:15):
in the past, and that's have a really long title
reign with great matches at the top of the car.

Speaker 2 (13:19):
And he seems to.

Speaker 6 (13:20):
Have developed a really good UFC type personality for the
hd NETS shows where they do these promos with them
and you know it just comes across like a badass
in the ring.

Speaker 2 (13:32):
Yeah, And the course of the pay per view will
be on Go Fight Live dot TV. Sean, you also
have in your backyard and tying rolatively close to you
and Ring the Motor tonight in Boston with the rh
TAG titles on the line. What's your overall kind of
view of Ring of Honor right now go into this

(13:53):
final Batle weekend and heading to twenty eleven. Do you
think their position stronger or less less stronger? I that's
not worth How do you see roh bet positioned right
now going to twenty eleven compared to the beginning of
twenty ten.

Speaker 6 (14:09):
I think they're beret a position. I think they really
solidified themselves this year. I think one thing they could
do to really help themselves is build some more interesting
storylines on the cards. I think the generical steam few
has been example of what RHN used to do when
there are really several angles like that, you know back

(14:32):
in two thousand and five, two thousand and six, where
you had all these angles that built long term, and
you know, it was spread across DVDs and you want
to see every match on every DVD from that feud.

Speaker 2 (14:42):
And it meant something.

Speaker 6 (14:43):
And I think they really got away from that for
a long time, and they're still away from that, and
you know, you can only sell so many shows and
DVDs just based on matches, but I think they're heading
in the right direction.

Speaker 1 (14:59):
You can support us on Patreon and get these shows
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(15:21):
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Speaker 2 (15:30):
Yeah, Brian, do you have any any questions to throw
Sean's way or anything to talk about the Ring of
Honor pay per.

Speaker 4 (15:34):
View Sean Howe? Are the final rates expected to do
for this pay per viewer?

Speaker 2 (15:41):
You know, they've been kind of what.

Speaker 3 (15:42):
In the thousand range? Are they gonna hold steady in
that area? Are they starting to improve.

Speaker 4 (15:47):
A little bit?

Speaker 6 (15:48):
Well, I know they're hoping for over two thousand. They're
well over one thousand before and they're hoping for over
two thousand this weekend, So they're you know, they're they're
the I pay per view was you know growing, It's
not you know, two thousand, it's not a great number,
but it is growing, and that's a pretty good profit
for the sin They split it down the middle with

(16:11):
Go Flight Live. Yeah, and Sean also, you know, Try
and Get USA has dabbled in the Internet pay per
view with their first event with the last month of
the month before. Have you heard, I mean, they talked.

Speaker 2 (16:24):
About increasing production value. Have you heard about when their
next Internet pay per view might be? Do you think
it'll be after there are wrestle any weekend shows, or
do you think one of their January shows will become
an Internet pay per viewer those famiwich one mbswain.

Speaker 6 (16:40):
I'm guessing one of the January shows will be one.
I think since they run so infrequently that you know
they're in triple shots, I have to imagine that one
of those shows is going to be live from each week.
I'm like, I don't think they can afford not to
because for their DVDs, they take a really long time
to come out, so, you know, so they can't if

(17:01):
they're putting out three shows, they can't afford to just
sit on two of them for you know, months and months.
And so I think I know that I know d
G has hired some people to work on their production values,
and hopefully that that that works out. I gotta I
got some glances at the work that they hired. The

(17:22):
people they hired did and I was really really impressed.
I actually posted up a video of one of the
new graphic guys did for one of the pay per
views last year, did kind of like a hype package.
I was really impressed by that. So they're looking to
ramp up the production values and I don't know I

(17:44):
just hope these venues to have our look a little better.
I know they're just looking to get cheap venues to
put on the show, as it seems like, because I
know they got a great deal on the building in
cant North Carolina for WrestleMania weekend. So I don't know
the me I went, it's a really ugly place for
the ie pay for I'm hoping they, you know, find

(18:07):
a better place that doesn't look like a dumb Yeah
it did a I mean that's I'm glad that they're
increased the production vty because that that first round to
get USA Internet pay per.

Speaker 4 (18:16):
View was.

Speaker 2 (18:18):
Not pleased into the eyes watching that it looked below
ND level and I was surprised by that. So uh yeah,
so I was thought that they were increasing that. I
think we're gonna Honery is taking their steps to increase
production value. We just posted a flashback last year's and
I was complaining throughout about the production value and it's
night and day from their first Internet pay per view

(18:40):
last year to their previous one a couple of months ago.
Uh So, looking forward to the Saturday's pay per view,
sean final thoughts before we let you go on and get
to some callers. Yeah, and I mentioned that first Side
gave ree editing the show that they did on I
pay per View for DVD, so you don't have to worry.

Speaker 6 (18:59):
About that they're doing a canon edit.

Speaker 4 (19:03):
Another thing I want to mention was.

Speaker 6 (19:05):
That actually I'm figuring now, but yeah, the the I
am impressed with what our age.

Speaker 2 (19:12):
Is done with the I pay per View, and I yes,
I do remember the.

Speaker 6 (19:16):
Both companies are insistent that if you have a computer
that doesn't suck, that your quality of the stream should
be fine. So if you think about ordering it and
you have a good computer and you're not stealing it
from another stream, you should have a good quality feed
this weekend for the Final Battles show and future dragon
Gage shows.

Speaker 2 (19:37):
There you go, all right, Sean, good here for me
today and both of you and I will be covering
Final Battle on Saturday. Is it's on the internet pay
per views. Should be a good show, shall it be?
Tweeting on Sean go up with your Twitter or your
Twitter page.

Speaker 6 (19:52):
Twitter dot com. Last Sean Vatican, I'm also doing a
pre show with Torch VI I P member Jimmy eating
tomorrow on his live cast perspective common fan from uh
three to four Easton Times from.

Speaker 2 (20:09):
Yeah, there you go, and Sewn you plug that in
your blog and that's all that good info from Torch.
Call me Sean Radikin. Is that b towbtorch dot com
with his blog that just went live about a half
hour ago. Uh, so the information is there, So Sean
for the yars for me things for joining us on
the live cast today. Again this his torch. Uh what
am I I mean? It's just an editor James Caldwell

(20:31):
joined by towards the south Cha Colmas. Brian. Oops, I
didn't even start the chat room before we started. That's
that's all I've just still thrown off. Uh that starts
today's show. But yeah, Brian, let's go ahead and uh
let's get let's get to some volte WoT WoT we
just got just got impact ratings. It's just it's a
live happening show today. Uh impact rating where we have

(20:52):
one point one with an average of one point six
million viewers. Here's your story of the year. The show
peaked in Q four with a one point two to
three rating. Uh. The low point was in Q six
with a one point oh three. The show had a
little bit different feel since it ended actually within the

(21:13):
impact hour or two hours. Uh, since they threw in
a half hour crank show before reaction. Uh. So Q
seven and Q eight we're both at one point one
after the one point oh three in Q six, So
at least it didn't drop all the way to the
lowest point in Q eight. Uh. I guess that's a

(21:33):
decent sign. I don't know, still one point one overall
rating peak in Q four, low point thirty minutes later
in Q six. So uh, Brian, anything jumped out at
you from what appears to be the usual rating story.

Speaker 3 (21:49):
Now it's another ratings in that one point one range,
as you said, a very usual ratings pattern. It you know,
it tells us anything, or it tells me anything. You know,
it should say that they've got a pretty much a
core audience that's watching week in and week out, and
they don't deviate very much from that. This is the
time to start introducing some of the younger, fresh characters

(22:10):
and build them up while they have this this core
audience that they hope to catch somebody that's gonnaa peak
or get hot. What the US or what the WW
has done with the myth Uh, you know, they've introduced
a new guy there, and I think he's gonna spark
some business here. And that's exactly what T and A
needs to do, is find that young guy that they
can get behind that will spark the business. And they're

(22:32):
just they're not anywhere close.

Speaker 4 (22:33):
To doing that.

Speaker 2 (22:35):
Yeah, and you know the kind of to me Samoa Joe.
Uh you know, I kind of wrote about this my
analysis of the story about Joe re signed with T
and A. He's a guy they've got to get behind.
I mean, they they have stars that are just not
behind them. They get sucked into the black hole of
the writing, and Joe's a guy that they need to
get behind and feature him. I really liked when they

(22:57):
did a reaction last night featuring the younger I mean,
I don't want to say younger him. That's almost like
a knock so weird, but sort of that mid thirties
group of guys who are not on TV in the
Attitude era it are relevant in twenty ten. It could
be difference makers if TNA gave him attention week upon
week upon a week in a consistent basis and made

(23:18):
in the central point of the show. Last Time's reaction.
I thought that was the best show they've had focusing
on those guys, and I thought they told some good
stories with the wrestlers who can be difference makers for
this company. So I think them Joe follows that category.
And you know, we got to get to phone calls.
We haven't. We haven't brought it had a chance of
bringing into callers. But Brian, your your quick reaction to

(23:41):
Samoa's Joe and him signing with TNA, which was announced
by Dixie Carter today, Are you surprised by it? Are you?
Are you not surprised? Well, how do you think that
he'll be used going forward?

Speaker 6 (23:51):
Now?

Speaker 3 (23:53):
But I hope he's used in a more prominent role.

Speaker 8 (23:55):
I hope that's one of the things that was in
his contract.

Speaker 3 (23:57):
Is that he's going to be more featured and they'll
get back into that mode where you know, he was
the guy that they got behind early and three four
years ago when Kurt Angle came in. He was a
guy that was huge and over from when he came
over from ROH in two thousand and four. And you
know since that, really, you know, his current really peaked
with the Kurt Angle angle when they land the UH

(24:21):
stimulated the MMA type fight and that's when they had
their highest by rate. So I hope they get back
to that type of small Joe character and let him
do what he does best and that you know, let's
you know, put that play that character that really kicks off.

Speaker 2 (24:35):
Yeah, and you know that's what's so lockdown in two
thousand and eight we talked about all the time, and
I think DNA is in denial about that. So without
further ado, let's get two phone calls. If you're listening
to us live on Block Talk Radio, six four six
nine eight eight is number to call apologies the couple
of people who dropped offs who will call it in earlier.

(24:57):
But if you're listening to if you're still listening to
us and you're from the six seven eight and five
five nine, uh, actually we still five five nine six
seven eight, I believe you're on a hold way early.
So if you want to join the Life Pass again,
we'll get you on the air immediately. So let's go
to the five five nine erie code. Welcome to the shelf.
Please say NAA where you're from.

Speaker 8 (25:14):
Hey guys, this is step from Galley.

Speaker 2 (25:17):
Hey Steve, what's going on to say?

Speaker 9 (25:19):
Oh?

Speaker 4 (25:19):
Not much.

Speaker 8 (25:22):
I called him yesterday and I had brought up the
fact that with them with the Miz and how he's
doing so well in the in in the media, slew.
He's calling through wondering you if the Dove are gonna
possibly uh turn him face anytime soon.

Speaker 2 (25:39):
I wanted to get your your two guys' opinion on that.
If we think he's gonna turn faith, Yeah, if the.

Speaker 10 (25:46):
W W E sees his potential outside of THEE at
how well he's doing with the media lately, if they
might turn him into like, you know, the next scena where.

Speaker 8 (25:57):
You can go out and do make away and stuff.

Speaker 4 (26:00):
In ternum faith.

Speaker 2 (26:01):
Yeah, it's a real good question, Brian. I'll get your
reaction to the first.

Speaker 7 (26:06):
It is a good question.

Speaker 3 (26:07):
I think at some point down the road that maybe
is the direction they end up going. But part of
the reason why he's he's so good in the media
is because of the character he's playing now. He's that's
form me. Heel that cocky and arrogance the type guy.
And you know that puts that puts making him stand
out away from a guy like John Cena instead of
just a wash and repeat the guy you know the

(26:28):
next w W champion coming on here and doing these promos.
So I gotta think, are you still Brian?

Speaker 2 (26:39):
We might have lost Brian in momentary. We'll get Brian
back on. H I mean, my thought is that I
think Miss as a heel they need we'll get Yeah,
there goes Brian, We'll get him back on. I think
Steve answer your question. I think Miz needs to play
this role as the heel long term, whether that's the
year and you know, I don't see him holds the

(26:59):
TI for a year, but I think he needs to
be a top main event act for a year, not
just so you know, a Jack Swagger held champion who
gets a little bit of a run. He doesn't really
look that credible. They don't really promote it. Obviously, he
was on SmackDown, which was a highly irrelevant brand before
sci Fi. It probably we'll get back to you for

(27:20):
your fault there for and it's like, I'll throw out
my thought, which is that I think Miss needs to
be a long term heel. Whether he's warned to belt
or not, he's in that main event scene and he's
in that mix. He's in matches either for the title
or you know, contendership, matches or matches that are built
as main event level quality matches, and then you get
that either you get the story of Alex Riley and

(27:42):
he rises up and turns on Miss, or you get
another cocky heel who comes along and says, you know what,
I'm better than the mis. You know, Miss is soft, Miss,
You're not what he used to be. You got fat?
Is that you know, you kind of became a fat
cat as a champ, you got lazy, and you build
that story and the audience starts to sympathize a Miss,

(28:03):
and then that's what we do, is do that face turn.
I think they need they need to have Miss long
term heel champ or long term heal mayne vendor for
at least a year. It's not longer hopefully before they
consider a face term. But yeah, I mean I think, yeah,
twenty twelve, he could be a huge stars as a face.

(28:23):
I think that's a definite potential possibility. So Ryle will
get your your your your thoughts on it on that topic.

Speaker 3 (28:32):
Yeah, you know, I think I'm agreeing with you. He's
got to go for at least a year long term.
He has a heel here. If face turned down the road,
he could be a money player. But you know, they've
got I think a potential to have a pretty good
Lettromanium main event with him working as a heel against
the baby Face challenger, maybe Triple A's but more likely
Bobby John Cena trying to regain the belots and and

(28:55):
there's a good story there. There's a great story with
him being a heel champ in for the long term.
And I guess I'm just thinking he's done so well
as a heel at this point there's no no reason
to turn him baby faith quite yet.

Speaker 4 (29:10):
Yep.

Speaker 2 (29:11):
Uh see back, did you have a final thoughts or
another question? Yeah, another topic?

Speaker 5 (29:16):
Yeah, yeah, but by no means that I mean that
they should turn him like next week or anything. I
cully agree with everything you guys just said. Going onto
TLC this Sunday, uh with the number one Contenders match
between Morrison and and uh uh Seamus, I'm sorry, Uh

(29:38):
do you do? You guys pretty much see that they're
not gonna put Shamus a heel against hims heel for
the championship in the next pick for you at row rubble,
so uh, Morrison is practically gonna win, right, So that
would make all the top stars basically from Raw in
the Royal Rubble, which leads into my question, as with
all the stars in it, who do you see winning?

Speaker 4 (30:00):
Possibly?

Speaker 2 (30:02):
I'm very fascinated by the Morrison Seamus match. That seems
like a match that Seamus would win, you know, but
it also I don't see that. I don't see Seamus
versus Miss, and I don't see uh Miss losing the
heathern of Orton on Sunday. So to me, I mean,
I think Miss and Morrison with I mean you're thinking

(30:22):
about CLCS, you know, middle of December or Rumbles the
very end of January. You could tell a very nice
story for six weeks with Mis and Morrison. I mean
they're they're I mean in Greg Parks and I talked
about this in our in our chat posted yesterday. There
is unlimited potential for six weeks and Miss and Morrison
going back and forth, and they don't need to sell

(30:42):
that pay per view. Uh, the World Rumbles sells itself.
So uh, Steve, like you said, you pull the MENI
venters in that Rumble match? Who comes down to your winner?
I mean I think that Triple H makes his return
in the Rumble, or you know, maybe the leading up
to the rumble and then he he enters, he cast
Seamus and Seamus caught sa can eliminate each other from
the rumble. I always think that Sina wins that that

(31:04):
I mean, that's my booking prediction, that Cina wins a
rumble and it goes on to face Mins for the
title at WrestleMania. That's why Alex book it. I don't
know that's what they're thinking is but.

Speaker 11 (31:15):
Need an extra dose of positivity in your wrestling podcasts?
Will come join me Alan frel Over in the Progress
Paradise at Peterboo Torch vip as we mask on the
bright side of wrestling and focus on some of the
great matches and shows from around the world, be it
the US, Japan, Europe or Mexico. There's always a place

(31:35):
for wrestlings past in the Paradise too, and we've done
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celebrating the glorious career of Jusian thunder Lighter and Our
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me to talk about a classic bout that they were
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(31:57):
Torch VIP subscription information and a list of all the
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Speaker 2 (32:17):
Paradise, Brian. You know for let's strow at TLC. Who
wins at M one Contender Match and how do you
see it playing out towards the rumble and who wins
the Rumbles?

Speaker 3 (32:30):
Well, you and I are thinking along the same line
as James. I really see this Morrison Seaman suit as
a way to elevate Morrison and if you can elevate
him to the next level where he's into a main
event type of status. You know, he's a He's a
guy that very athletic, has the right look, could be
at the main event to caliber level for for years

(32:51):
to come. You're right in the sense that they don't
need to sell the Royal Rumbles pay per view on
the main event of MZ versus Morrison. The Royal rumble
match itself is gonna sell it and and really that
would be the main event with with Mis defame the
title against someone underneath it and uh him Miss and
Morrison because of their history as the Taking Champions, because

(33:14):
of you know, their relationship, they could play off of
that for four to six weeks and really give that
level or that feud a main event level feel of height.
And I think that would be a great way to
elevate both of those guys, make them both seem as
main events type guys. And then when you get into
the rumble Goat Willis Triple h is gonna be returning

(33:34):
either he just he is gonna win it, or if
their plan is to go with the guy like the
Sena versus the Miz at WrestleMania, Sena comes out of
the winner of the little rumble, which I think that's
how I would I would try and play it is
you know, the long term build Sina ends his feud
with with the Nexus and starts the build towards WrestleMania
and the main event title shot GG Briant.

Speaker 2 (33:56):
And that's why they ended seen as firing, was to
go ind and have this blowoff match with Barrett at
the GC pay per view. Have you have to have
seen it win that match and then have seen it
go on and win the Rumble and go to WrestleMania.
I mean, do you think that's they looked at their
options and they said, you know what, let's get seen
it back after a month of being quote unquote fired

(34:18):
and then let's start to march to the Rumble into
the WrestleMania. I mean, do you think that's their thinking
in this?

Speaker 3 (34:23):
I think they just weren't looked the long term. You know,
it didn't have a good plan when they when they
did the firing angle of of a Sina, they didn't
have it planned out how long he was gonna be gone,
and you know, it was a terrible way to handle it,
just having him out of a week or two. In fact,
he never was gone off the TV, but they had
to bring him back to end this few too, you know,
start fresh with the Rumble and start moving forward. So

(34:45):
it's it's probably time for him to end the viewed
with with the next sustance. I think that's the probably one.
It's part at this point they did not handle that
angle very well, but you know, now it's time for
them to move on and move saying Sina into his
next phase of is Uh you know where he's going
with his next direction?

Speaker 2 (35:04):
Very good? Uh, Steve, we appreciate your your call. Thanks,
you're going to stay on the live cast. Let's go
to our next phone call. Uh, I'm the four one
five here you code four one five. Welcome to the show.
If we see you're in and where you're from. What's
going on, guys?

Speaker 7 (35:17):
Jonathan from Stampruisco, Hey, John, let's go on today. Uh,
just pissed off about the host Samoa Joe signing like.

Speaker 2 (35:25):
I was really hoping that.

Speaker 7 (35:28):
I could just see the booking for him, just like
you know, and all the way next year is just
gonna be really bad. I feel sorry for I don't
even felt sorry for him because he's stooping up the sign.
But do you guys have any indications on what is
the deal worth or how many years is supposed to
be for?

Speaker 2 (35:47):
Yeah, you know, I mean it happened so recently I
haven't had a chance to ask around. That's something I'm
gonna try to find out this weekend. I was surprised
when Dixy announcedid it and I mean Smore chose a
smart dude. You know, he's not a dummy. He's seen
what TNA has done to his character. It's not like
he's sort of saying, well, this is the greatest thing

(36:08):
that's happened to me in the last two years with
getting happy and Kevin Ash being mister Cole and I
look like an idiot, and I mean, you know that's
part of Kwaky's butted heads with Russo and why I
had that blowoff or that blow up. Gosh, what was
that four or five six months ago? Is just you know,
you've got to get tired of the way TNA produces
talent and the way they book and then you just

(36:29):
kind of blow up on them people. So he's not
a dummy. So I'm sure that there was some assurance that, hey,
we're not gonna screw you up over here. It's not
it's not it's not gonna be his last two years,
I would assume, or it's just you know what, Joe
look at his options, his career options, and said, I
don't want to go to w B. I don't want
to do the schedule. My body's banged up. You know,

(36:52):
I've got a family, uh, you know, ring and minor
is not gonna pay me as much, try and get USA.
It's not gonna pay me as much. Do I just
suck it up and say, I'll just I'll just stay
with TNA, get paid, live in Florida, work in Florida,
and take care of my family. You know, I don't
know if that's what it is, but you know, Brian
wits your reaction to the why and why do you
think Samoa Joe resigned with TNA.

Speaker 3 (37:14):
I think he probably looked at the schedule WW and
decided he didn't want to go into that grind or
go into that schedule. Certainly they were gonna make him
no assurances or guarantees of how he was going to
be pushed, what his character would be, or how high
he would be pushed to the.

Speaker 2 (37:29):
Top of the cards.

Speaker 3 (37:30):
They don't, you know, they don't make those assurances or guarantees.
Dton knows where he's at with TNA, he knows the
schedule he'd any. I think he probably did get more
of a guarantee or an assurance of what type of character,
who he was gonna be, who he was gonna feud with,
and how high on the cards he was going to
be wrestling at and must felt comfortable enough to resign
with CNA and to do that.

Speaker 2 (37:52):
John, than back to you, did you have another ball
up on Joe or another question?

Speaker 4 (37:56):
Just just still disappointed.

Speaker 7 (37:58):
You know, it will be nice to see him in
w W E and you know, at least in the
mid card or somewhere and just you know, make enough money.

Speaker 3 (38:05):
But I know he got to.

Speaker 7 (38:06):
You know, he just had a family and everything.

Speaker 2 (38:07):
So but second.

Speaker 7 (38:11):
Question, uh I asked yesterday, you know, after seeing w
W on demand and they had a question of who
was the most underrated uh superstar and the most overrated superstars.

Speaker 5 (38:25):
I just want to.

Speaker 7 (38:25):
Get you guys take on that.

Speaker 2 (38:28):
Yeah, Brian good, have you seen that the Legends Round Table?
And what's your your general opinion on the most overrated
underrated rustler in w history.

Speaker 3 (38:39):
I haven't. I have not seen it yet, so I'm
hoping to watch it this weekend and it's sometimes then
looking forward to watching. I think it's gonna be you know,
a great a great discussion, if you could really name it,
named several guys who are very overrated, very underrated in
in w W history. You know, guys that come to
mind as being uh, guys that are underrated to an extent.

(39:03):
You know, if if you would have looked at Rick
Flair back in the early seventies when you train at
earned got his training camp, you would have if you
you know, if somebody what has told you that guy's
gonna be a world champion at some point, you would
have thought he's a guy that was an overachiever and
did more than what he has talent to give. And
based on his body type, the way he looked, I
think you'd have to put, you know, a guy like

(39:24):
Rick Flair in that category. He's a guy that overachieved
based off of what he came to that camp.

Speaker 4 (39:30):
With and what he showed, you know.

Speaker 3 (39:32):
And there's guys like you know, maybe a great Gunya
that you had put in that category as well. From
the standpoint he was very skinny, very thin, but yet
you know, came to a level off of his own wrestling,
his own speaking ability to get to a main event status.
When you talk to guys about underachievers, you know, guys

(39:53):
that they come to mind is a guy like Tom
Zank who had a great look, good build, but just
had you know, choose where he burned bridges with a
lot of promoters that he was.

Speaker 10 (40:03):
A guy that could have.

Speaker 8 (40:04):
Gone further, could have been a.

Speaker 3 (40:06):
Main event level type player, and uh, you know, because
of behind the scenes politics, he wasn't gonna make it.
And he'd probably say the same thing for a guy
like Marcus Magwell, who has had to look, could speak,
could left full inside the ring bases, we had all
all the package that you want. But because of the
way he handled himself with with other with the people,

(40:26):
for the promoters, the bookers, there was no way he
was going to be pushed that main event level status.

Speaker 2 (40:32):
I wonder sort of in a modern era, you know,
last ten to six I've seen in the last five
ten years. I mean the one two guys jumped to
mine and one is for ability. It was because of push.
MVP comes to mind.

Speaker 4 (40:50):
For ability.

Speaker 2 (40:52):
I think he has the ability. I think his move
sets that times have been rough, but it seemed like
he underachieved, and you know, part of that it wasn't
really his fault, part of it. I think he he
just I felt like he plateaued as a wrestler a
few years ago and it never really seemed like he
developed a better, more fluid look to the way he wrestled.

(41:15):
But I think he had the ability. So I would
say he underachieved because I think that he should have
been a champion at some point in the last five years,
a top champion, and and it just never happened for whatever,
you know, combination of reasons. And then based on push
and look, I would say Chris Masters, I mean thinking
about the push that he had Sean Michael's coming off,
wasn't it Brian right after the whole Cokain feud when

(41:37):
they told uh Sewn, Who's gonna start a feuding with
Chris Masters? Was Thatta? And I think of the right program,
Yeah yeah, I think he's right on the right time frame,
right program, Yeah yeah. I mean coming off one of
the most bought pay per views of the last five years,
SUMMERSLAMO five, I think did six hundred thousand buys or something.

(41:58):
I think that's the most buys for any not wrestle
media pay per view probably the last the six seven years.
So coming off of that and Chris Master, she he
just deflopped and they have tried and tried and tried
again with him, and uh, it just hasn't worked out.
So I would say that he is underachieved based on
the push and the look and you know, not necessarily

(42:21):
because of wrestling skill, but just because those two factors
which are pretty big in co tov H is the
opportunity you're given and look you have. So those two
jump to my modern so it would be my answers.
I don't I have to think more about in a
broader context, you know, twenty five years So yeah, So Brian,
he brought the broad and I brought the narrow, and
I think we I think I think we captured that

(42:43):
for Jonathan. So good, good call, Jonathan. We appreciate your call,
have a great weekend, and good to hear from you.
Let's go to our next phone call from Let's go
to the four oh eight eerie code four oh eight.
Welcome to the show, please station in where you're from.

Speaker 12 (42:59):
Hey, this is Chris from San Jose, California. How's it going, Joan?

Speaker 4 (43:04):
Good?

Speaker 2 (43:04):
Good?

Speaker 12 (43:05):
So my question is about the mis and as WWE champion.
I'm just trying to figure out like if they're trying
if the WWE is trying to get maybe some of
the viewers that maybe left, you know, four or five
years ago when they went when the Attitude era was

(43:25):
kind of on its on its way down that maybe
if they turned on the TV and they didn't really
know how good Miz was on the mic, that they'll
look at him and be like, wait a second, it's
just not believable that, like say, if this guy was
in a bar fight, that he would win. And I
just want to see, like if there's a subconscious feeling

(43:46):
amongst viewers where he's he's a champion. But you're like, wait,
I don't I think Daniel Briant could beat him where
I think Edge, you know, could beat him, or maybe
even Cabal, you know what I mean. So I just
want to see what you guys think of that, and
if there's any example well from the past, you know,
like maybe like Rick Martel or maybe even Rick Flair
in his early days.

Speaker 2 (44:05):
Yeah, great question right, I'll throw it at you for
the last part of what Christian about, you know, past
wrestlers who fit that most. I mean, I can talk
about this reply about twenty minutes of how you Know
is trans you know, sort of transition to more of
the entertainment based stars. You know, it's sort of a

(44:27):
do you look the part? Do you look slick, do
you look youthful? Do you look like a TV star.
Do you look good at HD? They I mean? And
even Santino in coslof this this bottom man wrow And
then you know Michael Coles listening their attributes and he goes, oh,
they're so funny in U for the other word he use,
but it's sort of like funny and entertaining, you know.
It's like, no, they should be tough and championship worthy

(44:51):
and guys that you want to go. You know, if
you're in a dark alley, then you want them on
your side, you know. And it shifted so much away
from that aspect of a competition and simulate a competition
and who's good in a fight, not who's good an HD.
So the mis fits that like Chris does the average

(45:12):
viewer know that? And that's what they have to reconcile.
Are those two different perspectives, which is ww's perspective and
now they market it how they market it and an
average viewer tuning into wanting to see a fight. Whether
w W brands himself the sports or not, the average
viewer is you know, says it's pro wrestling, it's not
sports entertainment the average viewer. So there has to be

(45:33):
a hint of toughness to a guy like the mis
and so I think they've tried to do that recently,
especially with the day of Bryan thing and trying to
get over his intensity by juxtaposition there when they were
on NXT, having Alex Riley uh sort of back up
the miss that helps the miss. Some of the matches
he's had with Randy Orton where they've tried to get
over his intensity, that's helped to So they're trying to

(45:57):
give him an edge. I don't think they're there yet,
but I think they definitely need to. So I grew
with Chris on that even if they're trying to market
it as entertainment and sports entertainment that deals with an
HD and all that. So, Brian, your launcher perspective mean, what,
what's you know? What are some guys that are close
to Miz in that aspect? They don't really look tough

(46:17):
but the top Star.

Speaker 1 (46:21):
One way that you can help us sustain our schedule
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(46:43):
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what you like about the programs in the comments section.
Thank you so much.

Speaker 3 (46:57):
Well, you know ruled away in the history and the
nostalgia period where they've made these guys in the top stars,
was they beat somebody who was tough? You know, if
you thought Harley Race was the toughest guy in the
NWA or any city that he came into, how how
could a guy like Rick Flair ever beating Well, When
Rick Clair did beat Harley Race for the title, that
gave Flair instant credibility. And it happened, you know, with anybody.

(47:21):
If you thought Jory Funk Junior was the toughest guy around,
having Jered Briscoll being instantly gave credibility to Jerry Briscoll.
And you could go through you know, any history books
or any wrestling promotion. Uh, you know when when Ivan
Coleopp beat Brunald San Martino for the title, that gave
instant credibility to Ivan Colopp even though he's a little
bit of a smaller guy at the time. That's what

(47:43):
they're gonna have to do with MS is he's you know,
he's a guy that's not huge and muscular. He's a
little bit smaller in statue. He's gonna have to beat
some of your top stars to give him that credibility.
That guy's like you know Rick Blair got back in
the day by beating Harley Race.

Speaker 4 (47:59):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (48:00):
I don't want to see a Jack Swagger deal where
he takes the title and he loses on TV every week,
or or he looks uh sort of silly and or
you know, a big show of punches him out every
beco on TV. I mean, I think that I just
I can't feel live of me understand that booking on
SmackDown earlier this year, So I don't I hope it

(48:21):
doesn't turn into something like that with MIZ and I
don't think it will. I think he's he's in a
position where w B believes in him and he is
on the Raw brand and he right now by default,
is the top guy. He's doing all the media for
TLC and is the title. I'm sorry for the tribute
of the troops and everything that they're trying to promote him,
and he is the guy right now. It's not like,

(48:42):
you know, he's on SmackDown. Where's irrelevant. So I think
they will try to protect him more than a situation
like with Jack Swagger. With Swagger just looks so beatable
and not credible, and no one really wanted to see
him as chant because they didn't build him up effectively.
I don't think we're gonna you know, it is, but
I will be very interesting to see how long this

(49:03):
rain lasts. I think royally they got to give him
a long rain to make this worthwhile and really stretch
out that mainstream height that he has the last three weeks. Chris,
the call could to hear from you. We're gonna get
some more phone calls on last ten to fifteen minutes
of the show. Here again, if you listening to us
live on blog talk radio, the number to call is

(49:23):
six four, six, seven one eight. Let's go to the
nine to one. Eric Coleby, this is Hannibal and well
how are you today?

Speaker 4 (49:32):
Yes, I'm doing if I I don't think well with
child doing good?

Speaker 2 (49:36):
What do you have for a set?

Speaker 4 (49:37):
Okay? Yes, okay, what do y'all think about? You know
this is going on very young with the you know,
the title, the Weigle Team Tyland, the garbage kin.

Speaker 5 (49:48):
Do y'all think the act deeper value the pm A
title much more?

Speaker 2 (49:53):
Oh, you're saying on an impact last night? When when
Eric Young, Uh, what did you like dug up the
belt at the trash can? Is that kind of your question?

Speaker 4 (50:01):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (50:01):
What's up to go about big gamming? I mean I
think Wade put it best in his audio review. Uh
waye Wade Keller towards editor in his vip audi review
on P to B torch dot com last night. First
of all, I mean, just too many title belts on
the show unimpact, And I mean what does that say
about the value of the title when you create a
visual of the belt being in in a trash can

(50:25):
and then a reaction, uh, you know, half an hour
later you have Matt Morgan putting over how much he
wants that title belt? And you know, on the very
same you know, block of programming, they showed that belt
in the trash can. I mean, what kind of idiotic
decision is that? So, Brian, I mean, what's your take
on those things that TNA does? And they just have

(50:47):
way too many titles on their show.

Speaker 4 (50:50):
Yeah it is.

Speaker 3 (50:51):
You know, I'm not a big hockey fan, but I
know the Stanley Cup.

Speaker 6 (50:54):
It gets passed out.

Speaker 3 (50:55):
To the champions and each champion, each member of the
championship teenth gets the kill that cup around and show
it and display it to his hometown or whoever he
wants to, and it's taking care of with pristine care it.
You know, it's something that's valued more highly than anything
else in hockey. And you know, if you've got that
type of level of respect for your belt or your

(51:18):
or your cup that you're fighting for, you know, what
does it say when in wrestling you're fighting a garbage
or a belt in a garbage can or in a
trash can? It was thrown away, Nobody cares about it,
and it's just basically made a joke of on TV,
and I, you know, I just wondered what. I guess
I know who's writing it, So I guess that's what
I would expect, because that's an angle that they have

(51:39):
done before and it shouldn't surprise anybody.

Speaker 2 (51:41):
I guess, yeah, yeah, I mean it is what it
is with DNA almost. I mean I said this last week,
I think the week before. I mean, I just recommend
just just watch Reaction and they'll kind of highlight the
things that you need to care about from Impact, and
it just skipped Impact. I mean, I think it's just

(52:03):
too painful to watch it. I mean I watch it,
and I mean I don't report on it, but I
watch it so I know what's going on. It's just
it's too painful. Just watched Reaction and and that show
has really improved the last couple of weeks and it
makes a lot of sense out of what doesn't make
sense on Impact. So that's my reformation for the week. Him. Well,

(52:27):
good to hear from you. As always. Let's go to
our next phone call. Let's go to the three oh
five eree code three five. Welcome to the show. Please
stay your name man, where you're from?

Speaker 13 (52:36):
Hey, I'm Sean from Jacksonville.

Speaker 7 (52:38):
Uh, John, call it.

Speaker 4 (52:42):
Really quick.

Speaker 13 (52:43):
I just wanted to tap onto what Chris was thang
previously about champions that you know he used to they
look weak but to the average user perfect example of that,
Chris Kerka. You know, he came out, he was looking
very goofy, and next thing, you know, he's underfeated champion.
But my question is, uh, you know, everybody's saying that,

(53:03):
you know the scene if you need to be over
with Nexus, My question is, you know, what does that
mean for the Nexus outside of weight Parent and David
Ortungua Feudi. You know, do you think that's gonna lead
to ultimately the demise of Nexus or do you think
there's something else that they.

Speaker 2 (53:17):
Could they could push that? Yeah, I mean that that's
based on how they rush this through with Sena in
in Nexus, it's certainly left open the question of Okay,
what's next, you know, I mean in Fighting, do they
revisit the Higher Power? Do they kind of go back
to the basics of what this group was created to do? Uh,
Brian after seeing it Baird on Sunday, we assume they

(53:41):
kind of go their separate ways. That at least said,
That's how I would imagine it happens. I don't know
how they coexist on the same show and all that,
you know, vis, but what do they do with Nexus
after Sunday?

Speaker 4 (53:52):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (53:53):
I think that's a fair question, and I don't know
if they know exactly what direction they want to go
with that. I think they they've got a couple of
guys they can try and and uh rebuild here a
little bit into at least a mid card level status.
They need to keep parents as a you know, a
semi main event or main event level guy that got
him up in that in that area, trying to keep

(54:13):
him there. I think it's gonna be a challenge for
w Dow for one. Uh, but take all these stars
that they have out of the next this group and
and to find something for them to do with. I
think it's gonna be a real challenge. You're probably gonna
see some of these guys, uh will get shuffled up
to the SmackDown brand and split up. Well a couple
of them that they still have hopes for They're gonna
try and and rebuild or repackage and uh you know,

(54:36):
get them into the next level maybe to that mean
mid main event level or mid card level status.

Speaker 4 (54:43):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (54:44):
I'm very interested to see they do split them off. Ryan,
Like you said, I mean to me, SmackDown needs something
Cain and edge and and bear that that's I think
that's really dragged down the brand, and so you know,
does nextus reinvigorate the brand? I mean, I think it
would say more than that, and I think you know

(55:04):
Brian Uknick turned listening in the the after show, is
the the SmackDown title match this Sunday and what they
do with that and whether they try to re energize
the brand with it was a major title change, So
we'll talk about that in the after show. We're gonna
get the we have five people of holes. We're gonna
start rapid fires through as many calls as we can
here in that last seven minutes of the show. So
let's go to the four oh two area code four

(55:26):
oh two. Welcome to the show. Please say you name
and where you're from.

Speaker 14 (55:30):
Hey, guys, I haven't called a while. This is real
from Lincoln, Nebraska for.

Speaker 2 (55:34):
You know, that's why I didn't recognize your number. Go ahead,
what do you have for us?

Speaker 14 (55:38):
And they're gonna have a lot of time, So just
two things real quick. I haven't watched Impact from this week,
but you said Eric Young found the TNA title in
the trash can from like five weeks ago when Jeff
throw it away. Yeah, why why has no one in
TNA taking.

Speaker 2 (55:54):
The trash out like a month and a half.

Speaker 14 (55:58):
But joke aside, I just had a quick question for
you guys. Is there any reason why the standard in
wrestling is that the champion comes out last for the
match and I is there any reason why they ddate
from that randomly? Had the champion come out first.

Speaker 2 (56:14):
Yeah, that's a real good question, Brian, go ahead, tickto one.

Speaker 3 (56:17):
But just from the historical standpoints the champion, you know,
it's kind of a shining of respect. The champion always
comes out last. He gets you know, he's supposed to
have the biggest entrance, loudest music, biggest pops from the crowd,
and that's that's just kind of the way it's always
been in boxing, wrestling, MMA fighting, as the champion always
has been an out last. They don't always follow that

(56:38):
in pro wrestling anymore. Sometimes will bring the champion out first,
just from the standpoint of the who's who's the champion,
how the entrance is gonna look, and how the coup reactions.

Speaker 2 (56:47):
Are gonna be. Yeah, I'm disappointed that change. That's one
of the things I really don't like is the change
away from the champion came out laughs.

Speaker 4 (56:55):
I mean that was.

Speaker 2 (56:56):
Always forever the formula in the I couldn't remember tell
you the year when it changed, but they just seemed
like a gradual thing where they started doing it and
it became sort of a you never know who's gonna
come out first type thing. Now, I really, I really
dislike that change wrestling so especially I think ww B

(57:17):
does it. I have to think about with TNA, but
I know w B does it so often. I don't
like that change. Real going to hear from you a
good question. Let's go to our next call. Eight one seven.
Welcome to the show. Please say you in Well you're
from Jimmy from Fort Worth, Texas.

Speaker 3 (57:32):
Is how you guys are doing good?

Speaker 4 (57:34):
Jenny Way for six, Well, just real quick.

Speaker 15 (57:37):
I think one, you're so concerned about men, or maybe
they're concerned about miss But I think there's two things.

Speaker 2 (57:43):
Working for me.

Speaker 15 (57:44):
One part of the reason to the mainstream is because
he doesn't come from the other major love of media
right now, which is the reality TV. I know it's
a lot of them painted, but he does bring that
appeal of being somebody who comes from the real TV
world and there's your main stream look for him. But
I'll tell you the reason why they're gonna treat him right,

(58:07):
and that's because he's one of the few Money in
the Bank winners. He has to face the previous champion
right away. If you thinks back, all of these Money
in the Bank winners recently, they win the belt, but
then they don't have to face who they beat for it.
You know, it's kind of like along the same lines
of what we see with the champions from the Elimination Chamber.

(58:29):
They don't get their rematch, you know, mayus go on
to the next program and we see the same thing
the champions who dropped the belt in the Money in
the Bank contest.

Speaker 4 (58:39):
Yeah, you're right.

Speaker 2 (58:40):
I'm trying to think. I don't remember Swagger and Jericho
having a title match, and I don't think Seam has
ever got his rematch after he lost his titled Elimination
Chamber in February. I'm obviously he became champions later in
the year, but I don't think he anyways trade to
WrestleMania with Triple H. You're right, so I specific question

(59:01):
or just just that comment.

Speaker 15 (59:03):
Well, no, I mean I just think that that's the
reason why I think we can click at this and
say it's gonna be a legit deal because he's entering
a program in with Range Warton.

Speaker 7 (59:12):
We can look at him.

Speaker 15 (59:13):
I mean, take a look at Kane. We're finally getting
Kine in the cereo in some former fashion. Now this Sunday,
how long is it, Benson, Kane has a title from
the Cereal.

Speaker 2 (59:27):
The One to Stay. They had a rematch after that.

Speaker 4 (59:32):
Half I have.

Speaker 2 (59:34):
Okay, let's see Money to Bank pay per view in
July is when Kane won the belt because he cash
in that same night did uh what was it? What
was the SmackDown Summer Slamming Events Undertaker Kane? They went
straight to that match. Yeah, hm, alright with show Yeah

(59:55):
either way, I looked that up. But I mean, like
you're flowing his ballot. I mean it's a lea two
out of three, if not three out of three on that.
So yeah, I mean you're right, Jimmy is a great
point on that miss has to face, you know, is
the guy who tricked the belt from So yeah, you
kind of eliminate that that sort of that that issue
hanging over his title reign, and it does add a

(01:00:17):
sense of credibility, uh, in validity to his reign, and
he can go out there and say and be the
guy that you know, quote unquote stole the belt from
cashing running the bank. If you can go out there
and win straight up, Yeah, that's a great way to validate. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:00:31):
Good point.

Speaker 2 (01:00:32):
I haven't heard that mentioned before. Uh so, yeah, Jimmy Cloud,
you brought that point to the table. Let's try to
squeeze some more phone calls. Let's go to the six
seven eight ereia code six seven eight quick question or comment?

Speaker 16 (01:00:44):
Yes, do you think them? I'm so I'm sorry because
this is the first time I'm calling, But yeah, you
do you think the mis doing all these a baby
face type internet use hurts his character because I don't
know what he I mean. I looked at him on
Jimmy Fallon and I don't know who I mean. I

(01:01:08):
don't know what type of character he's supposed to sell,
because you know, on Raw he's a heel, and then
on Jimmy Fallon he just comes off looking like a
baby face, and I'm just totally confused. I don't know,
I don't know whose character is. I mean, is is
some type of deal where it's like a shade of gray,
a sort of.

Speaker 2 (01:01:28):
Thing yeah, No, I think that in Fane you and
I will tearn more about this in depth in the
after show. I think that is a shade's a great
thing and separates their TV world from their mainstream world
and how they present characters.

Speaker 6 (01:01:43):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (01:01:44):
And that's my short answer to it. We'll get to
that more in depth in the after show.

Speaker 4 (01:01:47):
One.

Speaker 2 (01:01:47):
I think everyone for the Little pat to be sure
he jods good on Monday and this weekend for Final
Battle and TLC favor View covered up torch dot com.

Speaker 13 (01:02:10):
Thank you for using blog talk radio.

Speaker 3 (01:02:12):
Goodbye.

Speaker 17 (01:02:18):
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Oh right.

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Speaker 2 (01:03:31):
All right, Brian, we're now in the v after show
portion of the show. I mean, I think that that
question that we got from our last caller, it's a
very valid question. How do you reconcile Brian miss a
TV character and the way he presents himself on TV
and makestream interviews. He still he comes across like a heel,

(01:03:53):
but he's almost like talking about himself as a heel
at times. Is that okay? In twenty ten with the
direction that B has gone with their program, where there
is there's a lot more acknowledgement of them being characters
rather than you know, the actual person that you see
on TV is who they are in real lives.

Speaker 3 (01:04:15):
I think that's what WW is encouraging at this point
for their their wrestlers when they make these public appearances.
You know you'll see U Triple H act a different
way in public, uh doing a promotion than what you
would see him act, you know in a wrestling match
or in a wrestling ring. The same thing for Vince McMahon.
They'll go in and out of character and you know

(01:04:36):
you'll have heal Vince McMahon on TV, but tribute to
the troops, he's going to be one of the more
approachable guys and and somebody that's very engaging. So you know,
there's there's two characters that they like to profile. One
to that public image when they're not doing the personal appearances,
being on talk shows that sort of thing, and then
the other is what you see on Monday Night Raw

(01:04:58):
and to Tor a car fan like our caller there,
it is a little confusing because we want to see
the guy that we saw on Roth out there doing
acting like himself or like we think that he is,
and and what WW is going for is more of
that soft sell towards the media and getting those repeat
interviews and that, you know, if you're having a strong

(01:05:20):
heel character, A lot of times that doesn't translate for
long lasting media relationships.

Speaker 2 (01:05:27):
And I think also because a lot of mainstream kind
of looks at wrestling being silly, and so I guess
that w B doesn't want their champion, even if he
is a heel, to go on TV and sort of
act over the top heelish and it kind of act
cartoony heel because like you said, I don't think that
generates main It doesn't generate repeat phone calls to get

(01:05:51):
anybody from your company back on that show or on
a separate show on that network. So I think that
Miz has to kind of tone it down a little
bit when he's on his instream interviews and just sort
of be a larger than life character, but not a
larger than life heel. And so I think that that's
you know, the kind of video what your point, which
is that you're trying to get respect and you're trying

(01:06:12):
to get repeat phone calls to do mainstream interviews. You
can't really have somebody come out there just be over
the top campy because right now wrestling just isn't cool.
You know, it doesn't have that cloud factor, and you
can't and you know, it's not accepted as being cool.
So if you have somebody on who just looks kind
of campy and cheesy, and it reinforces the negative image
of wrestling, And so I think it's it's a macro

(01:06:35):
and a micro issue, and that's why you kind of
get that shades of gray miss character who's who you
see on TV in these mainstream interviews.

Speaker 3 (01:06:45):
Yeah, I agree with you. You know that's that's exactly
the reason why. And and you know, I'd be more
in the camp that if we're looking at it from
a long term perspective of a sport, you know, like MMA,
you don't see a lot of the heels getting the
the enjoycements of sponsorships. You don't see you know, guy
like he got Jush cockcheck you and Gator eight commercials

(01:07:06):
it's more for the George Saint Pierre's and that's what
WW is going for.

Speaker 2 (01:07:11):
I tell you he's gonna be the next big marketable USC.
I mean, Raja, you know, Favor is already a pretty
marketable guy. You know, I just think he's ready to
He's ready to blow up. So I mean you see,
I mean I've seen probably three commercials with him. I'm
a granted, was on Verses last night, so of course
there's gonna be a commercial with him on it. Uh,
But you know, I've seen the interviews with him. I'm

(01:07:32):
an interviews commercial with him on ESPN for probably a year,
and it seems like he's popping up more and more
and he just seems like he's ready to blow up.
And here's an undersized guy who's you know, what is
he like six foot? I mean I like five eight
five seven, you know, one hundred and forty to what
what what his favorite way?

Speaker 3 (01:07:52):
Well, I think he's gonna he's gonna drop down to
fight in the one thirty five pound class and that's
kind of where he wrestled that in college. So yeah,
he's an undersized and I think he would be a
great choice to be an.

Speaker 4 (01:08:03):
Ultimate fighter coach.

Speaker 3 (01:08:04):
You know this this next year's a reality show. If
you can have him and maybe Jose Aldo as coaches
to develop their personalities and get those guys for their
next pay per view fight.

Speaker 4 (01:08:17):
I could see that as a as a huge.

Speaker 3 (01:08:19):
Like you say, a huge win for UFC and for
your riot Paper, who's a star in the making, as
long as he can keep himself at the top of
the cards.

Speaker 2 (01:08:27):
Yeah, and it shows that you don't necessarily have to
be a giant, you know, six foot six, two hundred
and fifty pound guy to be marketable outside of wrestling.
Having Missus priven that in favor is and you know
GSD other guys like that. You know, you don't have
to be brock Lester from UFC, and you don't have
to be Triple H for the Undertaker or you know Johnsen,

(01:08:49):
who's you know, kind of in between those two sort
of heightened waight ranges to be marketable. It's just, you know,
can you present your character and do you have something
that connect to the audience. So yeah, so yeah, I
think that Misses handling them stuff well is my big
picture of the week. Just the amount of mainstream attention
is he's generated and whether that helps business. We'll see.

(01:09:11):
Speaking of business, TLC pay per view on Sunday, I'll
be there lives the pay per view. Very I'm very intrigued,
like I said, for the audience reactions, to the audience attendance,
and also the SmackDown title match it's changed to, which
would be official on Tonight's SmackDown four way TLC match
for the title with Ray and del Rio added to

(01:09:31):
the match which was originally Kane and an Edge Brian.
Do they pull the trigger on del Rio's champion? Do
they go to Ray and Cereo? Do they keep it
on Kane? Do they go to Edge? I mean, who
is your pick right now as champion? And then I'll
get my prediction.

Speaker 3 (01:09:49):
Well, you know, I think Kane has run his course
as champion in here. You know, unless they're probably gonna
hold off and see if an Undertaker can come back
and do some sort of a match with Kane and
rust Mania, and if he's able to physically, I think
you could you could take the belt off of Kane.
You certainly don't want to put it on an Undertaker
at WrestleMania, you know. See, You've got a match in
the making with kanaan taker at WrestleMania, you don't need

(01:10:12):
the belt to for them to carry it. It'd be
a good time to get it off of Kine and
get it onto somebody who's more physically able to have
a good matches. I think, you know, the SmackDown brand
has really died here over the last several weeks, trying
to with as Kane as champion and bringing in Paul
Bear and and the Edge and King dynamic has really died.

(01:10:32):
So I think if you have to go with somebody
who's a little bit more younger, healthier, can have better
matches and better programs, and you can take your shot
at At del Rio, or you could go with Edge,
And I think either one of those guys, if you
push them as more of a heel type champion, gave
him a run with the belt that you're gonna have
better results from now through WrestleMania time and building up

(01:10:54):
of Tay per View main event level match for WrestleMania
for that title with either guy.

Speaker 2 (01:11:01):
My theory on it, and you yeah, great points, Brian.
My theory is that they took away the Ray del
Rio match because they want to save that match for
either the Rumble or WrestleMania and have that be a
world title match. So of course that means you know,
is your champion Ray or is your champion del Rio.

(01:11:22):
I think that maybe they needed to take a chance
and put the belt on Del Rio this Sunday of
the pay per view and and just create a different
dynamic on top of SmackDown. And I mean, I mean
Ray del Rio has been on SmackDown, It's been featured
for a couple of months now, but I feel like
they've got to do something different than Kane versus whoever,

(01:11:45):
especially Canaan Edge. That thing is just it's just run
its course. Like I said, you can build towards the
Kane Undertaker blowoff high stakes match in WrestleMania if Undertaker
is able to go. But I mean I would say,
go ahead and do and put the belt on del Riah,
you know, why not take a risk and SmackDown Utuly. Honestly,
they don't have much else going for that brand right

(01:12:06):
now on top it just feels like it's been dragged
down with this Kane Edge bearer deal. Take a chance,
put it on Del Rio, have del Rio and Ray
feudo over that belt, and maybe he puts out of
the Royal Rumble or you you hold off and you
have it to WrestleMania. I think that that that matchup
has some it has some intrigue more than Canaan edge, uh,

(01:12:27):
And I'd like to see them save that match for
a title match, and perhaps that's what their mindset is
and why they're combining the matchup. So del Rio is champion.
I am almost convincing myself of it. And it seems early.
It seems very early.

Speaker 4 (01:12:44):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (01:12:44):
But del Rio, I mean we saw from the very
beginning they were very high on him, but they kind
of uh you know, they shot him to the top
very quickly on SmackDown, and they featured him on Raw
I think three or four times down. You know, granted,
you know, a SmackDown cameo isn't what it used to be,
but he has been featured on Raw. So obviously that
means they have a lot of confidence in him and

(01:13:05):
they want to you know, they want to expose him
as much of the audience as possible. I'd say, put
it on del Rio, you know, you know, do something different,
change it up. Put on a guy who's want to
put on TV four months. So that's that's my Bold
Prediction Slash Encourage fit for Tepena v. On Sunday brun
The other aspect of this pay per view which really

(01:13:26):
fascinates me is there is not a clear cut main event.
Uh seen it, Barrett. You would think would be, but
they just added it on on Monday's show. There's nothing
on the line. I mean, it's just it's literally just
the ball off match. It's uh uh you know. They
added the chair stipulation that just means you have a
weapon to use, but there's nothing on the line. Nobody's

(01:13:46):
career in the line. There's not a tight on the line.
Does that get main event building over Orton, Miss?

Speaker 3 (01:13:54):
I hope it doesn't because I think if you're going
to promote your champion as uh, you know, the the
most their championship belt is the most important thing in
your organization which you should be doing, that has to
go on last and has to be in your main event. Flat.

Speaker 4 (01:14:08):
You know, you don't have to have a lot of main.

Speaker 3 (01:14:09):
Events on the card, but you'd have to have at
least one. You look back at last week's USC pay
per view, I don't know if I could name any
other matches on that card except cost check in safe, Pierre,
but I knew that. I knew that main event match,
and that's really what fans need to know, is what's
the main event, who's fighting for the title, and make
their decision from there based off that they'll purchase this

(01:14:29):
or not. It looks to me like ww kind of
back themselves in the corner by putting the TLC scene
pay per view and trying to build matches around it
and came up with nothing as your main event, which
you pointed out, you know, Mis and Orton here maybe
doesn't have the hype that it should to be the
main event. But to prevent or you know, project your

(01:14:50):
title belt as being the most important thing in your
organization that has to go on last, Mis has to
be treated like the champion coming out of this out
of this paper.

Speaker 1 (01:15:02):
Anytime you're watching ww E Raw or SmackDown or AEW
Dynamite in particular, send us an email if you've got
thoughts on the show or a topic you want us
to address or a question for us. Wade Keller Podcast
at pw torch dot com. Wadekeller Podcast at petewtorch dot com.
If there's anything else going on in pro wrestling that
you want us to address on our main podcast during

(01:15:23):
our mailbank segments. That same email applies Wade Keller podcast
at PW torch dot com. We invite that interaction, let
us know what you think of what we're saying, and
let us know what you want us to talk about
and ask us specific questions. Wadekeller Podcast at PW torch
dot com.

Speaker 4 (01:15:41):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:15:42):
I think part of it is Randy Orton's character. I mean,
I think that he has taken a hit since he
became champion. I mean it's been downhill as a babyface
cham two or three, you know, three months ago, and
I just I don't know who he is as a character,
and something that's that's her marketability of that title match.
I don't send. So there's a real issue between me

(01:16:04):
and Orton. You know, it doesn't feel like there's something
between them. It just feels like they're matched up. It's
almost a way Barden Orton. It didn't feel like there
was an issue. It's just they haventing matched up against
each other. But there wasn't, you know, not even a
personal grudge. It just it didn't seem like there's anything
that connected them to together other than they're fighting over

(01:16:26):
a title which isn't over you know, based on w
BE is presented that belt, and like you said that,
they were kind of like saying, the main attraction is
the TLC format to see a TLC match, to see
two ladder matches, two tables matches, and two well, I
guess one share match now. And yet they gave it away.

(01:16:47):
You know, they gave away the visual of the ladder,
they gave away the visual of a table stop on
back to back weeks, They've given away a couple of
different visuals for this pay per view. So you're pretty
much given away the attraction if that's what your attraction is.
So I don't understand understand that as for of the marketing,
So you have left is a match that was just

(01:17:10):
an ounce on Monday and then tunnel match that does
that much juice behind it. So what do they expect
the audience to buy that pay per view for.

Speaker 3 (01:17:19):
Yeah, it's a good question, James. You know they you've
given away your best stuff already. What is there left
to see it?

Speaker 4 (01:17:27):
And that's what I think.

Speaker 3 (01:17:28):
That's one of the things that really has hurt the
bye rate for ww OVER this last year. They're giving
so much away on TV to keep the ratings high,
that there's a little interest in seeing things on pay
per view because fans know, either going into the pay
per view, I've seen already just about everything I need
to see to satisfy me, or I'm not going to
see a rematch on ROW the next night, or I'm

(01:17:49):
going to see, you know, something very similar on ROW
the next night. And and really what I'm seeing at
the pay per view is something I can go ahead
and afford to skip because there's other things that I
want to do with me from my money or my time,
you know. And you you know, W's either gonna have
to make a decision there right now, you know, most
of their revenues coming in through TV rights and advertising.

(01:18:10):
If they wanted to go back to pay per view,
they're gonna have to sacrifice, you know, possibly sacrifice ratings
and some of these marquee matchups and giving away so
much on free TV to get those ratings pay per
view by rates back up.

Speaker 4 (01:18:24):
Yep.

Speaker 2 (01:18:24):
Yeah, great points all around them, Brian, and they're up
against U. I can't lean the matchup, but is it?

Speaker 13 (01:18:32):
Is it?

Speaker 2 (01:18:32):
Patriots Steelers on Sunday Night Football? What's the Sunday night matchup.

Speaker 3 (01:18:36):
Well, you got me. I haven't haven't paid attend since
since the Vikings have shot themselves in the lake.

Speaker 6 (01:18:40):
I know, I know that Monday night.

Speaker 4 (01:18:42):
So that's all I can tell you.

Speaker 2 (01:18:43):
Yeah, yeah, I think it's a pretty I want to say,
the Patriots and a price sounds stupid if I had
the wrong match up, but I mean it's a pretty
good matchup on Senday at football. Uh So that might impact, uh,
you know, by rates, and especially for the reasons you
just said, which is that it feels capable and a
lot of people can kind of get the results on

(01:19:04):
our website, on w w's website and other websites. They
can sit there with their phone and refresh the results
and you know, not spend forty five dollars, you know,
of course, I mean there's a specially event feel tool
the pay per view, but you know, is it worth
forty five dollars based on what you get on pay
per view versus on TV? Probably not. So you know,

(01:19:26):
we'll see what this number does. I'm not confident in
it based on the the shifting changes in the main
event picture being a little bit murky, but I'll be there.
So I'll be very interested to see how this pay
per view plays out on Sunday. Brian, let's go ahead
and go to our final item, our final couple items.
Let's get your nostalgia news and notes for this week.

(01:19:47):
Going to give us a little a little preview. What's
of what you add in your nostalgia news and notes
in this week's Towards newsletter and your latest Nostalgia podcast
is an update on that.

Speaker 4 (01:19:59):
Hi.

Speaker 3 (01:19:59):
Yeah, well, podcast wise, George and I took another week off,
so a lot of things going on, as you can
imagine with holidays and everything else. So we hope to
be back and get back on a or normal schedule
next week and get back into our nostalgia podcast mode.

Speaker 19 (01:20:14):
And you know.

Speaker 3 (01:20:15):
In this week, had a long look at the Star
Kate nineteen eighty three event that aired in the month
of November on Classics on demand channel, and that by
far my favorite channel if you want to watch wrestling
and especially older school type wrestling. Great value. There very
inexpensive costs for a month of programming. I think it's

(01:20:36):
like seven ninety five or something like that in most locations.
And what they won the event they aired with Star
k eighty three, and I went back through and not
only reviewed that cart, but also a lot of history
as far as Thanksgiving Night card and you know how
they originated in the Carolina's going back to the sixty
three who came up with the original name for star Kate,

(01:21:00):
which was used in nineteen eighty three. I looked at
some of the history of closed circuit television, which this
was one of the bigger wrestling broadcasts on in that
time frame. It was broadcast in seventeen different locations throughout
southeastern United States and also Puerto Rico, so you know,
it was a really a kind of a monumental changing event.

(01:21:21):
From the standpoint, it was the fort pay per view
and one of the biggest. You know, they had special
attraction type cards, our special main event cards, a lot
of stadium shows in the seventies and eighties, and this
was one of the bigger ones with the name of
Start Kave that would be used all the way until
WCW was sold. And you know, it was just a

(01:21:43):
real tradition that was moved not only from Greensboro, but
also kind of rebroadcasts through the advent of post circuit
television and eventually pay per view.

Speaker 2 (01:21:53):
Very good. Yeah, that's something that I've had a chance
to read yet, but I'm definitely going to read it
this weekend, when I usually read articles in the newsletter.
So yeah, I mean, that's a fascinating look at a
very different time in nineteen eighty three before the Big
War broke out and in eighty four continued eighty five. Yeah,
and it's funny you mentioned Stark because you know, you know,

(01:22:15):
the very last Darcade was exactly ten years ago today,
and we published a flashback report to that on Pptorch
dot com yesterday. They in advanced so that was headlined
by Steiner and Sid I believe, and also I had
Goldberg and Luger as your top two matches at the
very last star K ten years ago with you know,

(01:22:36):
w SEV about four or five months away from closing shop,
which segue into the twenty years ago flashback then.

Speaker 7 (01:22:45):
We'll talk about.

Speaker 2 (01:22:45):
This was posted last Wednesday on the and the Torch
Back issue section, the VIP section. This was on the
Zubisco w CW close. I'm sorry, Sibisco and w CB
close to an agreement in Awa shutdown now appearing inevitable.
And this is Torch Newsletter number ninety nine from December thirteenth,

(01:23:06):
nineteen ninety Brian was talking a little bit about this
last week. We could talk more in depth about this
time period as the AWA is about to come to
a close with Larry's Ebisco going to WCW. Of course
of Bisco married to the boss's daughter, and so when
he's leaving town and you can know, things that are
not looking up kind of break down this time give

(01:23:28):
of the AWA, and it's sort of the significance of
one of the foremost promotions in the history of wrestling
about to shut down. Twenty years ago.

Speaker 3 (01:23:37):
THEAWA was, you know, one of the top three promotions
through most of the sixties, seventies and early eighties, not
definitely not the late eighties, but you know, their talent
pool ran dry. And I think we talked last week
about Survivor Series card or WWE cards that really had
very little big name wrestling talent on it. And when

(01:23:58):
some of your other promotions like nwaws don't have very
good talent, you're AWA there. This isn't enough talent there
to keep a promotion afloat. And they basically had ceased
running any type of househow business had lost their TV
contracts with ESPN, so there was no way to promote
any shows even if they wanted to run, and no
revenue or no income coming into the company, and so

(01:24:20):
it was a matter of time really before they shut
their doors, and then by ninety one they had shut
their doors completely. The BISCO would go to WCW and
wrestle for them and eventually become taking champion with arn Anderson.
But you know, the AWA would really never be revived.

(01:24:40):
It was tried in many different forms, but you know,
it was an end of a legacy. From the standpoint
that veran Gania started at the AWA in nineteen ninety
and you know, that was one of the premier belts,
premier titles, and one of the best places to work
from the standpoint you talked to guys like I talked
with a black point go about. You know, he made

(01:25:01):
as much money as the NWA champion, but had a
much better schedule to work in and uh, you know,
travel between cities was sometimes difficult for guys, but they
didn't have to work very many dates and they just
you know, love to work in that area. A lot
of guys did up in that Minnesota and Chicago, Milwaukee,
and uh up to Winnipeg area, so great place to

(01:25:23):
work in his heyday. And course the Gania family produced
numerous wrestlers out of their training camp and really just
a sad end to an era that you know, Vernon
Gania would not be promoting wrestling any longer after nineteen ninety.

Speaker 2 (01:25:37):
Yeah, yeah, it is. You know, it's one of those uh,
I mean, I don't know what you put it in
the context of, you know, the biggest stories of all
time and for wrestling, h you know, one of the
premiere promotions for such a long time shutting down and
so unceremoniously. I mean, it's just sort of and then

(01:25:58):
grant me if I'm wrong, it's just gonna stop.

Speaker 4 (01:26:00):
You know.

Speaker 2 (01:26:01):
It's just there never was a farewell card.

Speaker 4 (01:26:06):
It just ended.

Speaker 2 (01:26:07):
I mean, it's just that's sad to me. And when
was the last car was an official last card?

Speaker 3 (01:26:17):
I think there was a TV taping in Rochester that
eventually was the last card. You know, they had some
some cards that were booked, uh in Saint Paul and
then Rochester and just for advance, they just decided just
to not putt you know, not have the expense of
bringing in the wrestlers or the talent and paying them
and renting the building because they just had just very
little fan interest of at all, uh in in wrestling

(01:26:40):
in that area to see the stars at a w
AS promoting. So they just never really had that final
card or that goalie type card. It was a small
TV taping attended by a few hundred fans and and
just this very sad way to end, and uh, you
know what, what was the one time a great promotion?

Speaker 2 (01:26:58):
Yeah, yeah, I think that way Keller on on wadkiller
dot com. I think he has a ticket stuff from
one of the very last.

Speaker 4 (01:27:06):
A w A shows.

Speaker 2 (01:27:07):
I believe he said it was at his house at
his high school, so that that's worth checking out on
a waitkeller dot com. I think you can see that,
uh that that ticket stuff on the splash page on
the main page there so, uh a little bit of
trivia and historical tribua there so, but still sad story.

(01:27:27):
Uh just never really having that that that ending stuff. Uh,
let's think about before we wrap up. One of the
cards that was reported on from w CW. This was
WW promoted an event at the Mecca Auditorium in Milwaukee
on December first, nineteen nineties is the house show headlined
by Rick Flair and Butcher Reid in a two star match,

(01:27:51):
but the fascinating, fascinating card in my estimation. Uh, let's
look at the main event. Rick Flair lost the Butchery
in the cage match. In the semi main event, Jerry
Saggs lost to Rick Steiner, Nasty Boys and the Cider
Brothers in the semi main event back when they were
you know, still their decent workers. This is rated three stars.

(01:28:12):
You know, you know, you're thinking about where they are
now and you think this would be laughable to have
him in a semimin event of a show. Well, Alex
Luger beat the Big Cat and jy D and Iron
Chic battled to I don't see I don't see it finished,
but it looks like they just had a match with
JYD and Iron Sheek, Big Van Vader beat Moondog, The

(01:28:35):
Motor City Madman lost to Terry Taylor, and good Old
Master Blaster Steel beat Alan Iron Eagle in an eight
minute dud opening match. So fascinating there with Kevin Dash
in the opening match. There was a guy named Alan
Iron Eagle. In nineteen ninety December of nineteen ninety Brian,

(01:28:58):
your thoughts on this house show from from ww and Milwaukee.

Speaker 3 (01:29:02):
You know, you know again there you can see that
there wasn't a tremendous amount of talents on that card.
You know, I assume like this Rick Steiner versus Jerry says,
originally it was the Stiner Brothers against the Nasty Boys,
which at that time would have been a great.

Speaker 4 (01:29:16):
Tank team match.

Speaker 3 (01:29:17):
They had a very brutal encounter at Halloween Havoc nineteen
ninety and so they had actually a pretty good few
going there, butch Reid and Rick Flair inside of still cage.
You know, Butcher read this was kind of the tail
end of his career. If he had done his WWF run,
if this was nineteen eighty four or eighty five, between
Red and Flair, this would have been a great main event.

(01:29:40):
Those guys were great workers, especially in that timeframe. So
you know, just five six years too late of seeing
those two guys.

Speaker 4 (01:29:47):
In their prime.

Speaker 3 (01:29:48):
And you know, the rest of the card is just
pretty much what it was. Not any anything that's going
to stand out to except for that Jyd iron Chik
of did you give a star rating? Because that had
to be just one of the worst matches of all time.

Speaker 2 (01:30:01):
I just closed it. Let me reopen. I think it
was I think it was two stars, but let me
uh let me double check that. I want to I
want to make sure I get that right. Let's see.
Uh uh.

Speaker 16 (01:30:17):
It was.

Speaker 2 (01:30:19):
A star and a half. So and the the brief
right up, v o ID and Iron Sheet battled any
in the biggest surprise of the night as there was
a decent match with a lot of so uh yeah
that there you go, biggest surprise the night because it
was actually a decent match. Yeah, that was uh yeah.

(01:30:42):
So there's the answers, yeah, bright anything else jumping at
you from up from this flashback from twenty years ago.

Speaker 3 (01:30:50):
No, I don't think there wasn't much anything else in there.
That was probably the you know, the A W A closing,
probably the I think you know you don't have the headline,
which is what it what it was on that issue.

Speaker 2 (01:30:59):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a it was a sad ending.
So well, next week we'll cover number one hundred of
the Torch Newsletter, which is currently online at PW pdf
form in the back issue section of the VIP section
of the PB Torch dot Com website. U, So Ryan,
either you or well you will of course, but either

(01:31:20):
Wade or I will U. We'll break down that twenty
years ago flashback this currently on that was posted on Wednesday,
and we'll look at number number one hundred next week.
So uh, Brian in the final thoughts before we wrap
up tonight.

Speaker 3 (01:31:35):
Nope, just the weekend in Houston at the live event there, James,
I'm sure it'll be a good one for you.

Speaker 2 (01:31:42):
Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. Just kind of report
on a live pay per view again, haven't been to
a pay per view since WrestleMania last year, so should
be fascinating to h to report on that and then
see what happens. So thanks again for joining me. Brian
has always have a great weekends for Torch nostalgia. Call
Ms Brian who Torch Assistant Editor James Caldwell sign off.

Speaker 20 (01:32:11):
Are you a fan of AW looking to sit back,
relax and listen to some like minded podcasters who share
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ledge after a segment that has you wondering what the
heck are they thinking? Do you want to join a
discussion on what AW is doing right and what they
could do to improve. Then join me Joel and me
Greg for.

Speaker 21 (01:32:30):
The All of THEE Conversation Club every Friday on the
pw torch Live Cast.

Speaker 20 (01:32:34):
Fee search pw Torch in your podcast app and subscribe
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PW Torchdailycast lineup at pw torchdailycast dot com.

Speaker 2 (01:33:01):
You're listening to the pw torch Live Cast and this
PW Torch Assistant editor James Caldwell hosting today for Monday
eighty Summer twenty. In twenty ten, sort of the delay,
black Talk Radio was not functioning, but I'm joined today
by Towards Calm and Bruce Mitchell and Bruce are you today?

Speaker 4 (01:33:19):
I'm not functioning either.

Speaker 2 (01:33:22):
Are you still at your staff your staff party? No.

Speaker 4 (01:33:25):
I excused myself at the end of Dirty Santa, where
I expect the nicest person on our staff with the
worst ornament and took the ornament that she wanted. So
I'm on expressing the hell now. Oh no, everybody else
is just yeah, boy, I'll tell you what I'm in trouble.

Speaker 2 (01:33:44):
So so you call that dirty Santa because I call
it like the White Elephant Exchange or whatever.

Speaker 4 (01:33:51):
Yeah, yeah, I guess yeah, I think it was the
same thing. But yeah, dirty fantas And they were doing
an ornament, so you know what a big Christmas ornament guy?
I am James. I mean we talked about so, you know.
So what I did was, I had a friend of
mine who's a big she's a big flea market person,
and so I told her, go find me the ugliest

(01:34:12):
ornament you can possibly find. And she came through like
nobody's business. So but as it worked out, like I said,
the nicest person on the staff who everybody love and
I do too, and she got stuck with it. Not
only that, but I took the ornament that she wanted,
which you know, I don't even have a tree.

Speaker 2 (01:34:31):
So who cares.

Speaker 4 (01:34:32):
That's so anyway, that's so yeah good, that was It
was fun. But I kind of figured i'd be out
of the before now. So I'm on my way home now.
For those of you who are big fans are listening
to me, walk up the steps. I'll be doing that
in a little while. There you go.

Speaker 2 (01:34:53):
Last night TLZBRWS, I was at the building just a fascinating.
It's always fascinating you go to live uh W show
for the demographics, for the reactions, for the non reaction,
so that that's always fascinating. So I want, I want
to get your thoughts on the actual pay per view
and I'll kind of share my in person thoughts and
we'll also talk about tonight's raw, Eric Bischoff in the news.

(01:35:17):
We'll take some phone calls on a lot of different
topics in the news real monor as well. So we'll
go ahead and again with the phone number in six
four six seven night if.

Speaker 4 (01:35:28):
You go to join us live here on the air.

Speaker 2 (01:35:30):
For the next down to fifty one minutes already before
raw kicks off live at the top of the hour.
So appreciate you. Know, when we listened to you in
the roundtable yesterday available for towards VIP members with Way
Keller and Pat McNeil breaking down the TLC pay per view,
kind of got to synopsis of your overall thoughts on
the show and where the heck are they going next?

Speaker 4 (01:35:52):
Well, you know, my thoughts of the show was they
blew off, they that the next to feud with John
c aim to a definitive end. Last night, and I
mean I could be wrong. We'll find out, you know,
in forty five minutes. But it really seemed to me
like that was it, and John Cena got the ultimate revenge,
you know, beat up, wait there, beat him down, left

(01:36:15):
him you know, left him with nothing, and out smart
in Nexas and did everything you did. It was it
was It just seemed like the final chapter. And to me,
that's the final chapter. Then they rushed through a few
they didn't have faith in themselves to you know, to
execute properly. They just didn't they knew what to do,

(01:36:35):
it seemed to me, but they just couldn't. They just
couldn't do it. They couldn't slow it down enough. They
couldn't do that. They couldn't have John Cena in any
real jeopardy because they're so worried that fans wouldn't come.
And when you look at this, I don't I don't
think it raised by rates one debt that's what they
wanted it to do. I don't think it. You know,
it has not done anything demonstratable for the They got

(01:36:58):
a couple of ratings out of it, but everything's right
back where they were and it's been a lot of
television time. Of that, the only thing you could say
really is I think it did establish way Bear and
that's a valuable thing. But did it put those guys
back into that spirit squads slot where no one takes
them seriously because they got pumped so badly in the
last few weeks of the feud, So that to me,

(01:37:19):
it was like that to me was the biggest story
coming out of it. Also, it's just a medium entertaining
show that I would have been perfectly fine to watch
on television, but I'm not sure I was happy about
spending forty five dollars And I mean that's a big
problem that they have right now.

Speaker 2 (01:37:38):
Mm hmm.

Speaker 4 (01:37:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:37:40):
Yeah. And you know, you hit a point about Wayne
Barrett's and you know, I just I don't know where
they go from here. When next is I mean, they
established them as a viable act, they established them as
someone to take seriously for a time, but at the

(01:38:01):
end of the day, it felt like just another kind
of bumbling heel who pose a minimal threat to a
top star John Cena. But at the end of the day,
you know, he's just a just another threat that seeing
it easily Barton, I mean seeing it got himself hired
within three weeks of being fired, and he didn't even
do anything. You know, he attacks NEXTUS members backstage, and

(01:38:25):
they were still frightened that they demanded Barrett reinstate him.
I mean, talk about just just just backing down.

Speaker 4 (01:38:32):
It's reminded me of a kid, not an adult one,
not Frank Miller. Dark Knight returns, but it reminded me
of your basic Batman comic, which is Batman faces a
super you know, faces a villain who has some stooges
and he beat you know, he beats up the stooges
and he scares them and he gets them, and then
the villain was left and he beats up the villain

(01:38:55):
and that's you know, and that's what you thought. I mean,
he's not challenged. He wasn't you know, it wasn't anything
to it. And I don't know. I mean, it's that
kind of thing when you can't put the beta station
enough jeopardy and there's this note the main event needs
to have high drama. And this is not a PG.
I've said this before, but this is not a PG

(01:39:16):
versus Attitude era thing. This is just if you can
do this and have kids watch it, but but it
needs to be big stuff, it needs to be real serious,
and it never really got to that point except for
when he was fired and they just couldn't you know,
why they couldn't take him off of television for a
few weeks to get to make an investment, to get

(01:39:40):
that investment back and more is beyond me. I mean,
it just, you know, because I don't know that. I
don't know their ratings crashed because John Cena is not
on the show a particklarly, if all you're talking about is,
you know, where's John Cena and what happened to him?
And when's he gonna come back? And I can't believe
that this, you know, I can't believe he would let
this stand and you know, you build up something for it,
So you know, I don't know. I think there. I

(01:40:03):
think that their creative effort in the last six or
seven months has really been less than what we expect
of w and this man and Vincent Man's fred.

Speaker 2 (01:40:14):
Mm hmm, yep. I agree with you on that. I
think it's been like you said, there's a fear about
how they present Sina. I mean, it was so evident
by the way they quickly brought him back to TV
and it pretty much the same position that he was
at before. You he never really got a sense that
it wasn't any jeopardy after he was fired. He's just

(01:40:38):
he do whatever he wanted to do.

Speaker 4 (01:40:40):
He can hang out with whoever he wanted to, and
he had no problem beating the guys up. I mean,
there was one time when they they got him and
took kind of a beat down we'd seen before, but
he he did seem to be too hurt by it.
He was back up and accepting a Slami Award later
on in the show. I mean, this is the stuff.
To me, it's like it's it's followed along television, and

(01:41:02):
if your TV show that's if you can hold a
rating with that, it's okay. But when you're wanting people
to dig down into their pocket, it's not okay. It's
not enough. And that's what that's what they've got, you know.
I think that at w FA could be perfectly satisfied
watching their television, cherry picking what they wanted to watch

(01:41:22):
on TV and giving Roll Rumble and Wrestleman and really
just WrestleMania as far as special things and not miss
with things.

Speaker 2 (01:41:30):
Mm hmm yeah. I mean I wrote about that in
my blog today. It's just, you know, being at that
show last night and seeing how that show was booked
and just kind of the demographics and a lot of
different things kind of coming together that I've been rolling
around in my head for a few months. It's just
it just it hit me right there.

Speaker 4 (01:41:48):
You know that this is the problem, James, you were
so let me ask you some questions if you don't mind. Yeah,
So the live crowd, what kind of crowd was there
was that? Was it mostly a kid's crowd?

Speaker 19 (01:42:01):
Was it?

Speaker 4 (01:42:02):
He wasn't more serious roughly fans because it was a
pay per view or I know what it kind of
sounded like on television that the last match had a
lot more heat than the other matches and it was
kids and girls. But what was it like there?

Speaker 2 (01:42:16):
Yeah, it was the way I kind of estimated it.
It was about seventy percent kids and families and about
thirty percent uh you know, college age kids to some
you know, older adults without any kids.

Speaker 4 (01:42:28):
You know.

Speaker 2 (01:42:28):
So that's where you got the you know, seeing it
sucks chant. And then there was some there was some
anti random serio uh heat in that building too. When
he was climbing the ladder. But so yeah, it was
more than you know, the house show that I went
to in Houston in July. I mean that was say
ninety percent kids and families, and that that was that
was it. That's all I saw. This show had more

(01:42:49):
of the adults, you know, and I kind of thought
it was perhaps just because it's a pay per.

Speaker 4 (01:42:53):
View, so you expect usually there's more, there's more of
the adults. But if the balance is then that means
the adult, the serious wrestling fan is the fears rustling
fan isn't taking the live pay per views seriously, that's
not good. And the other thing is always interested to
me when you're when you're sitting in the crowd listening
to people, were people following the storylines or they just

(01:43:16):
there because you know it's it's it's John c To
night and that's w B Stars night and it's a
pay per view. Says something must be going on. Did
you hear people talking about the issues or anything, or yeah,
I got.

Speaker 2 (01:43:28):
The sense that the kids in the crowd knew what
was going on, you know, they knew the storylines, they
knew the characters, you know, because it's such a basic
it's such a basic show now you know versus so
you know, basic good, basic evil. You know, you know
Seamus is a bad guy and Morrison's a good guy
because he looks kind of fun and he does cool moves.

(01:43:48):
You know, it's such a basic level, lowest common denominator
deal that I think the kids get it. I mean
the adults to me, you know, I was sitting in
the eye and know that's actually a sit in front
of a row about six guys about you know, eighteen
and twenty five, and I was kidding up, kind of
eaves dropping just to kind of hear what their conversation.
It was mainly just cracking jokes that was going on

(01:44:08):
and having some fun, drinking a few beers, and it
was sort of they didn't really know what was going on,
but they recognize, you know, Rainy Orton, and they recognized
John Cena, and you know, they recognize, you know, hey,
is that big show in that Scena outisit?

Speaker 7 (01:44:21):
You know, so they kind of know some of.

Speaker 2 (01:44:23):
The people are, but they don't really know the storylines.
You know, it's sort of a let's go out.

Speaker 4 (01:44:29):
It's not a bad thing if if if most of
the crowd, you know, knows who's a good guy, knows
who bad guy, and gets the issue going on. But
it has but it also has to it that that
conflict has to be ratcheted up where there's real emotion,
where you really care about it, where you can really
get into it. And that's what I think they're missing.
But I think it's a good thing that, you know,

(01:44:49):
that people aren't confused too much. Although I'm watching this going,
I thought a lot of people.

Speaker 2 (01:44:54):
Were rooty for Kane. That's what I've gone too. There
was a pop in the crowd when.

Speaker 4 (01:44:59):
He came on, you know, and I'm like, that tells
you that that that thing with that thing with with
with Paul Bear was just nobody paid a bit of
attention to that.

Speaker 2 (01:45:12):
And you know, you know, my thought on why Bers
is that they came on on SmackDown. I mean, I'm
not sure that anybody in the audience watched SmackDown, but
they did the whole uh you know, the Benny Hill
gag reel, you know, with the Bear and Canaan age.
You know, Oh, it's just it's just came comedy, you know,
it's not it's just harmless and no big deal, you know.
At that point.

Speaker 4 (01:45:32):
I mean, by that point it was it was terrible.
You know, by that point it didn't matter what they did,
and it was so bad that you couldn't have anybody
seriously talking about it. So it's not like it I mean,
it really is them throwing in the towel, going, we
know this sucks. You know when when you're doing what
you're doing it, you know you're doing that Benny Hill stuff, Yeah,
Nachary Sack stuff, Who's Randolf? I mean, it's you know,

(01:45:55):
it's it's not like it was gonna save it, but
it is. It is like, don't take it seriously. I
think they have so many things that they do to
tell you it's only wrestling, don't take it seriously. When
people don't take it seriously, they laugh their way through it.
There's not enough money in that. And you can do
that all day in the in the mid part, but
when they're when they're doing that with the Edge, when

(01:46:15):
they're doing that with with the Raymisterio and Rayvesteria is
losing that base crowd that he has. That's not good.
And I think Rayvensteria has been kind of a punk
lately and that he just doesn't get the job done.
I mean, Alberto do Rios has doesn't seem to have
any problem. They're hurting him and making a pool out
of him and needs them to see him punk so

(01:46:36):
that they only you know, there's that ying yang between
we want Rayvestereo and I can't believe somebody the smalls headline,
and so let's tear him down so we can prove
that guys with small can't headline.

Speaker 2 (01:46:48):
Mm hmm. Yeah, yeah, that's definitely true. Yeah, I mean
I think that right now your heels are being presented
as not that big a threat and the issues are
being presented as ah, that's just kind of lighthearted stuff.
You know, it's just real light, really easy not you know,
not going to be you know, it's not gonna be

(01:47:09):
Kevin Stein and Eljenerico, you know, for the ring of
minor pay for view and when Kevin Stein plays his
evil monster who just is vile and vicious that you're
not gonna see that it's not a threat. And I
think it's just it's a very light connection. The audience
has very light kind of soft connection. If it's not interesting,
they'll do it now for a while and they'll come
back in a month. The order, like you said, for

(01:47:32):
it's the order WrestleMania maybe, uh, as we've seen in
recent years. So the bus dropping from Menia. Uh and
then M don't know, the rumble of summer Slim. It's
just not it's it's not connected at a very deep
emotional level. It's very shallow sort of as I put it,
kind of in the moment. For three hours, you get
your entertainment, and then you and then you forget about it.
It doesn't make an impression, it doesn't leave an impact

(01:47:53):
on you. It's just sort of entertainment. Make me laugh
for a couple of hours, and I'll move on with
my life. And and that's not good for business, I
don't think.

Speaker 3 (01:48:03):
I agree.

Speaker 2 (01:48:04):
Yeah, let's go ahead and get me some phone calls.
Who lost a few people. But I think it was
really important to kind of set the table for tlc
U versus you and I sharing our thoughts on that paper.
I just see this really epitomized and really captured where
WWE is right now in twenty ten, head into twenty eleven,
so that it was really important to kind of talk
about that. Uh. So take phone calls for the next

(01:48:26):
forty minutes if you dropped off if you want to
get back on. If you're listening to us live and
you want to jump on the phone lines, the number
to call six four, six, seven, one nine eight eight.

Speaker 1 (01:48:39):
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Speaker 2 (01:49:18):
Let's go to our first caller today from the seven
O three area code seven O three, Welcome to the show,
Please stay to him and where you're from.

Speaker 22 (01:49:26):
Hey guys, it's later from Atlanta.

Speaker 2 (01:49:28):
Hey Larry, what's going on? Today.

Speaker 22 (01:49:31):
Hey, Well, first I just wanted to say that the
towards coverage on TLC was great, you know, not not
only James your coverage live and you know, getting that perspective,
but also you know, as usual, the round table was
great and I really enjoyed, you know, giving in all
that today And yeah, I saw TLC and it was

(01:49:54):
kind of disappointing. I thought, I thought Wade had it
right where we said. The action was generally pretty decent,
but just there's no hook and I kind of feel
like the last two UFC pay per views i've watched,
I felt and it kind of reminded me back in
the days of like the nWo. I'm not saying that's
like the ideal days, but just when you know, for
the Attitude era or before that. But I felt way

(01:50:18):
more hooked into the storylines, and I was even though
I knew that wrestling was predetermined, I felt nervous, like
waiting for the finishes, waiting to see what would happen,
what you know, where the story would go next. And
the only events I feel that way now for our UFC,
where you feel like something is on the line and
you just don't get that sense any any anymore with

(01:50:39):
with WWE, and especially not TNA. I guess I'm just
wondering in the big picture, like you know, I know,
you guys talk a lot about sort of decompressing, making
you know, lessons more and making things matter. What would
it take for uh, I guess in ww where it's

(01:50:59):
more important, what would it take for that to actually happen?

Speaker 3 (01:51:02):
First?

Speaker 2 (01:51:03):
What's your what are your thoughts?

Speaker 4 (01:51:05):
I mean, it just takes It takes having the guts
too to have a downturn for a little while to build,
to rebuild the land, to put the put the soil,
to rebuild the soil. And what you do with that
is you slow down and you you decide that there's

(01:51:27):
one thing we're going to focus on. There's one issue,
and you take your time and you build that issue,
and you go all the way to the end, no
matter what. And it would take not it would take
not having made not having two main events on the show.
It would take not having everybody having you know, everybody
on the show has to have their own storyline and
has to have their own thing. And it's it's doable,

(01:51:50):
but it'd be a it would be something that would
drive some fans away and bring a lot more back
and bring in new fans because they would be able
to understand what's going on and they could get into it.
And you take your very best creative shot, and you know,
you figure out that story. And I think that I
don't think TNA is capable of it. I don't think
team they creative or anybody that's in charge of the

(01:52:11):
T and A has any clue how to do that.
I think that when this man focuses and it's pushed
against the wall, usually he comes up with he can
do the right thing and get something and he and
the team can do the right thing and get something good.
I'm not sure that we can see that right now.
But it takes, you know, it takes not doing silly

(01:52:35):
things that take people away from it. It takes not
doing all that, you know. It takes thinking that that
conflict is very entertaining, that you come up with enough
that you don't have to have thicky Guerrero climb the ladder.

Speaker 20 (01:52:46):
M M.

Speaker 2 (01:52:48):
Yeah, those are mebraws. Those are little things that add up.
I mean, and he might say, oh, you know, it's
just an intercuntinental title match and opening match, Well, you know,
we'll get a crowd reaction from the crowd. It'll it'll
be fun and it'll be harmless. But I think when
you do that so often, I mean, this isn't the

(01:53:11):
first time they've done something like that or something similar.
I mean, first of I'll get your thoughts on the
mis and Orton match. You talked about this in the roundtable,
but the finish to that match, the you know, the
the referee replay, the falls finish and I'm sorry, the
restart and then the you know sort of Alex Riley
is in the match and he gets bumped in the

(01:53:31):
Horton and he goes to a table and does that count?
That whole nonsense to me. I mean, these things add up,
and I don't know that really takes into considerations the
totality of it. Otherwise I think they would sit back
and say, you know what, maybe we shouldn't do it,
Maybe we should find a different way to get to
that finish. What do you think, Bruce?

Speaker 4 (01:53:51):
You know, yeah, I was real curious how people took
it live because I thought they pulled the rug out
from everybody and made them mad and then yea even
back to them and then pulled the rug out again,
and I don't know, you know, is that how it
came across live or yeah, it was.

Speaker 2 (01:54:09):
There was like a I mean I saw the first
finish coming. I even ruined it for my wife and
I said, oh, here's here. This is gonna roll Riley
out of the way. He's gonna put Orton there's and
wake up the referee. She's like, I don't, don't ruin
it for him, don't ruin it for me. But I did,
and uh, you know, so the crowd kind of saw
it coming, so there wasn't that huge like gas moment.

(01:54:30):
I think when they did the restart, the audience kind
of thought, okay, Navy Orton's win. I don't think anyone
in the audience really thought Orton was gonna win that match,
even the kids. I don't think they were led to
believe he'd be winning. So there wasn't sort of a
double groan, you know, there was a ground when I
saw the first finish coming. There was a groan when
they did the replay and Riley bumped into Orton. Norton

(01:54:53):
was to the table, so it was sort of like a, uh,
that's kind of silly, you know. It's sort of a groan,
But it wasn't like a big deal. It's like a difference.
I think that was kind of the word I use
to capture that, that whole sequence with indifference.

Speaker 4 (01:55:07):
Well, the difference, to me is the worst thing you
can have. I mean, you can have I hate to
go away eight and differences in the end, and that's
the worst worst thing that I will say that. I mean,
to me, miss has to keep that puddle and there's
you know, and they can do those cute finishes, but
they almost need to come up with a way that
mis takes that beating and then you know, looks weaker

(01:55:29):
than the Wharton but still wins somehow, you know, still
wins by something because something better than that. So I
think they need to you know, I think they need
to do a better job. We'll attack.

Speaker 2 (01:55:42):
Yeah, yeah, let's go back to you to Jeff fall
up on that or another question or thought on TLT.

Speaker 22 (01:55:50):
Oh yeah, sure, I answers a couple of overarching thoughts. Now,
I'm not saying to build up the Summer Slam was
done perfectly, but it's kind of unfortunately looking back and
just seeing like how fresh everything was starting to seem
and that they're really kind of putting a lot of
trust in the nexus. You know, maybe WW for whatever reason,

(01:56:11):
thought that these guys ultimately failed, and you know, there
could be behind the scenes stuff on why a lot
of those guys, like you know, Darrin Young got put
to the side and Targor got kicked out and whatnot.
But I kind of just it's kind of disappointing. You
know when I think back to that old A and
E documentary about wrestling, like back during the Monday Night
Wars and everything, Yeah, I remember Freddy Blaste saying saying that,

(01:56:35):
you know, like if even if you like steak every day,
you eat it every you know, once you eat it
every day, you get tired of it. And I just
can't understand from a business perspective, why anyone would think
doing the whole pay per view of ladder matches and
take you know, table ladders and chairs would would be
interesting over the course of the three hours, because it,

(01:56:58):
I mean just nothing had any impact. It was kind
of numbing, Like none of the spots felt big because
everyone was doing the spots. It was kind of silly.
And so that's kind of why I was asking, when
are they gonna kind of slow things down.

Speaker 2 (01:57:12):
I think that, first of all, I think w B
is strapped for ideas, especially for the off brand pay
per views. You know, they uh, they kind of phased
out the uh, the unforgivens, the vengeance, you know, et cetera,
et cetera. You know it was you know, it's a
decade old brand name for a pay per view. We
got to come up with something new. And they sat

(01:57:33):
around and they set out some surveys, they sat around
in some meetings, and you know what, people are actually
pay to see one on one matchups?

Speaker 4 (01:57:40):
No, we don't.

Speaker 2 (01:57:40):
Nobody wants to see a one on one matchup headline
a pay per view. We've got to come up with
something interesting, like a submission match or a four way match,
or uh, well, what are the you know, the elimination
all elimination chamber, all money in the bank, or all
gimmick matches. It doesn't work that way. It's such an
inorganic fallacy. It's just I mean, Bruce, are we gonna

(01:58:03):
come to a point where w B is going to
say we need to find something different or they're gonna
keep trying to stretch you out these gimmick pay per
views as long as possible.

Speaker 4 (01:58:13):
I mean, I think Larry is.

Speaker 2 (01:58:14):
A good point that you event should become numb to it.
And I don't think anyone wants to see a DLC
or a ladder match or a chier match for months.
It's not years after that pay per view.

Speaker 4 (01:58:25):
Well, they've made a mistaken way. Teller wrote about this,
talk about it. They made a mistake of showing us
ladder matches and showing us table matches and chairs matches,
probably thinking we need to see a sampler beforehand, which
made it even even more time. The thing to me,
you know, they came uprom this idea and now they've
gone through about a year. They've gone through that, they've

(01:58:46):
gone through their gimmicks, and they've seen that this does
not work because the reasons you're talking about, because you
have to build up to it. You have to build
up to it because it makes sense in the storyline
that someone challenges the other guy to a ladder match,
because at least one of them should that should be
their specialty and that should be the only way you
can settle things, or the or the most logical way
to settle things between the two, you know, for whatever

(01:59:09):
it is, and you know, I think it was last
week overall they plug tickets to go on sale or
extreme rules now extreme rules that stuff that's nick card
gimmicks that people are really tired of. And and and
you know, whacking people over the head with stuff last night.
I just I just think now chairs, chairs used to

(01:59:32):
be used to seem like the most real thing that
rustlers could possibly do to each other. Take a chair
and crack at every guy's head. There was no denying that.
There was no that whack. You know, you saw the
chair bend. There was no denign how real that was.
And there's also no denign how stupid it was even then.
And you know what kind of what kind of consequences
was gonna have down the road with concussions, And it's

(01:59:53):
even worse than we thought. But that said, now you've
got way Bear or John Send or whoever it is,
and they pick up a chair, and if you hate
somebody enough to hit him with a chair, you're not thinking,
I want to hurt this guy, but I don't want
to give him a concussion, because concussions are the news
now and they really hurt, you know, they really do a.

Speaker 3 (02:00:12):
Lot of damage.

Speaker 4 (02:00:13):
For thirty years, you're thinking I want to mess this
guy up. I hate his guns, and the best way
to do it is take this chair and wrap it
around his head.

Speaker 13 (02:00:21):
I mean.

Speaker 4 (02:00:21):
And so when they pick up a chair and the
guy and they don't hit him in the head, they
don't come close to it, and the guy turns and
offers his back, what you're thinking is that's b s
And now chairs have become and you know, it's it's
great that they're not hitting him in the head. They can't,
I mean, the liability alone is there, and also you know,
issues of human degency. People will try to pretend that's

(02:00:44):
that that doesn't count for a wrestling but he counts
like accounts anywhere else. But when you have a turn,
you all you're doing for a lot of people are going,
why do you hit him in the head? You know,
and he didn't them in the head because it's a
fake ass wrestling match. So they need to stop chairing.
They just need to stop chairs altogether. Ladders, there was
too much of it and they need to get back

(02:01:04):
to the money is in getting over a character in
conflict with another character, and nine in three way matches,
not all not they're burning out the engine and now
it is what you have. I don't know that. I
don't know that anybody's all that excited about it. And
it's not in Wow, look at all these spots. Boy,
these gots are great athletes. Bag mag bang, Wow, what

(02:01:25):
a great spot. It's it's having that kind of athleticism
serve the character and serve the storyline. I still go
back to six year old Jerry Lawler in the miss.
That was the match that got wrestling fans that I've
seen in a while the most excited. Wasn't the best match,
No that, it was the match that drew people in.
And some of that and some of that needs to

(02:01:46):
come back, and I don't know it's gonna come back.
Part of you know, not only is the table, ladders
and chairs they see the same way, but you've got
w W Russells, who all they all wrestle the same way,
no matter what size they are, they all wrestle in
that same style, and they're all about three star ruffles,
and they all go at the same pace, and the
finishes are about the same and it gets you know,

(02:02:08):
three hours and forty five minutes, and it gets born,
and it gets flat, and it gets flat on on
row too. And you know, I think this is the
culmination of many years it's built up to this, and
it's gonna take some time to build out of it,
if they even want to build out of it. And
I'm not I'm not gonna they I they do, I'm
not either.

Speaker 2 (02:02:28):
I think they're content with the way they are. You know,
it's just sort of just keep the keep the cycle going,
keep the machine cranking, you know. He just keep going
that sixty two weeks year schedule and just find some
new heels to feed. Desina and an off will go U.

Speaker 4 (02:02:47):
But yeah, I mean the thing about that, you know,
thinking about that is I think a Blockbuster video, there
was no bigger there was no bigger entertainment entity almost
the blockbuster, Blockbuster Video and the East in the nineties,
And because it was so big when it came came
time to change and to turn around, it's hard to

(02:03:08):
get a blockbuster that big, a Levia's and a whale
that big to turn around when you need it to
turn around. And I'm hoping that there's hoping it's not
like this with WW. But this is the year where
a lot of things that come home to roost, and
it's not good it's just you look at those numbers,
you look at you look at those revery streams, you
look at last night, you look at a lot of stuff.

Speaker 2 (02:03:29):
It's just not you know.

Speaker 4 (02:03:31):
And they went home run ball with John Cena and
and Wade Verrett and nxas and then they backed off
of going home run ball.

Speaker 2 (02:03:39):
Mm hmm yeah yeah, yeah, but that's one of the match, Bruce.
The you know, Zenas tied up in the robes, his
head is exposed. I mean that that was like the
only thing I could see was his head. And Barrett
gets that chair.

Speaker 4 (02:03:55):
I mean, what what option do you have?

Speaker 2 (02:03:57):
You have to get him in the head with a chair,
But what does he do? He slips out of the
ring and hits him across the Back's just like, okay,
you know, just to me, it's you just you just
don't do that match. You just you scrap it. You
change it to a TLS tables letters and stairs or
somebody else. That one when somebody who stairs during the match,

(02:04:18):
during the during some match, and they said it was
a TLS match, But you know, change it, just drop
the chairs match all together. You can't get around it.
You cannot do that match. There's just no way around it.
So I thought I thought that along with the symbolic.

Speaker 19 (02:04:35):
Bearing of Barrett Ernathy the pile of chairs, I thought
those were the two weakest moments of that match, just
when when Barrett had the chair, had a clean shot
the head and he jagged him in the gun and
hit him in the back.

Speaker 2 (02:04:48):
So yeah, I just say to do away with the
tear match altogether. It serves no purpose anymore.

Speaker 21 (02:05:00):
Be longing for some nostalgia or maybe you want to
learn some wrestling history, don't miss the Nineties Past Cast
Every Friday on the PW Torch Daily Cast Feed. Alex
and Patrick will transport you thirty years into the past
by taking you through the Torch issue from that very week.
Follow news from the WWF and WCW, and all.

Speaker 23 (02:05:20):
The happenings from across the wrestling industry in real time
as The Torch reported it thirty years ago. That's the
Nineties Past Cast, every Friday on the PW Torch Daily
Cast Feed.

Speaker 2 (02:05:40):
Oh, Larry, final thoughts from you? Any other question?

Speaker 4 (02:05:44):
Hey?

Speaker 3 (02:05:44):
Thanks James.

Speaker 22 (02:05:46):
Yeah, I guess the one other thing I wanted to
bring up, and it's a small detail, but I like
when all of you guys catched this, But I think
one thing I was really annoyed by because you guys
mentioned extreme rules coming up, you know, in a few
months whatever. I remember them mentioning that. But at some point,
either Coal or Striker said that TLC was the most

(02:06:06):
dangerous pay per view in WW and I'm like, what
the hell are you talking about? Like what you know,
why you have extreme rules? Like I don't get you
can't have two most dangerous pay per views their most
extreme or most violent or whatever pay per views. Like
just they they really watered down anything being a high
level concept pay per view.

Speaker 4 (02:06:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:06:28):
I mean that's when they're they're marketing slogans like cross
over each other and they sound all the you know,
they all sound the same.

Speaker 19 (02:06:36):
And it's like.

Speaker 2 (02:06:39):
I could have lost my thought. But it's just one
of those things where all of a sudden that those
two worlds collide and they hope that you forget about
They hope that you forget about this, the slogans being
the exact same, and you're like, oh, wow, this one
is extreme, Okay, what's the other one. Don't worry about that,
you know, all of a sudden, the TLC and the
Extreme Rules of marketing collide on the Leading Show last
Monday and you're like, oh, well they are kind of

(02:07:00):
the same. I guess I don't need to order this one.

Speaker 4 (02:07:02):
Yeah, I just know.

Speaker 2 (02:07:03):
One of the dumbest things on Monday show was hyping
the elimination Chamber pay per view. Why would you do that?
I just it's it's the marketing, it's the taglines, it's
the announcers. It's a whole it's a whole mess. So
glad I could hear from you. I'm glad we got
you on the air today again. You're listening to the
p tw B Torch live cast. This did p t

(02:07:25):
B Torch Assistant editor James Caldwell hosting today alongside Torch
Calmas Bruce Mitchell. Here for the next twenty minutes before
raw tonight, got some new people on the phone line,
So let's go ahead and jump to the phone lines
and uh, let's get another phone call. Let's go to
the two one oh eerie code two and oh, welcome
to the show. Please stay trenament where you're from?

Speaker 4 (02:07:48):
Two n O.

Speaker 2 (02:07:49):
You're on the air. I guess we don't have two
one oh, don't I know that's either stand Antonio or Austin.
So let's let's try you again.

Speaker 4 (02:07:59):
Two one O.

Speaker 2 (02:07:59):
Were you on the air, Yeah, I mean it, I
guess huh. Let's go to our next fall call from
the seven eight to six. Here he goes, seven eight six,
Welcome to the show. Please say your name, where you're from,
and how's are going in?

Speaker 6 (02:08:14):
Johnny?

Speaker 2 (02:08:15):
Hey, Johnny? What's going on today?

Speaker 12 (02:08:18):
That much?

Speaker 2 (02:08:20):
But yesterdays paper? I honestly, I mean I'm not gonna
be on it because I thought it was a great paper.

Speaker 6 (02:08:23):
You till the world Harywey title match.

Speaker 7 (02:08:26):
I mean that paper you would have ended there. It
would have been a hands down, I mean ten out
of ten. But I mean I'm a big ww fan,
hands down. But yeah, there was no reason to bury
way better the way they did it they were, I
mean that.

Speaker 4 (02:08:39):
Was there was no reasons.

Speaker 7 (02:08:40):
I mean, I don't understand why they would bury that
whole next I mean, that was just beyond ridiculous. I mean,
I don't understand.

Speaker 24 (02:08:47):
What I mean.

Speaker 7 (02:08:47):
I know it just trying to treat to the kids.

Speaker 3 (02:08:49):
But there was no reason to bury that whole group.
I mean one night like the.

Speaker 6 (02:08:53):
Way they did.

Speaker 2 (02:08:55):
Yeah, Bruce, Tonight's raw this thing I wanted to ask
you about is I mean, what do they do do
they you know, pretend like that didn't happen, rewrite the history.
Uh's just try to have Barrett come out and get
his heat back and claim an injury or he had
a you know, he sliced his hands placing Apple's. I
mean before the show, what what do you do to

(02:09:17):
or is that it?

Speaker 6 (02:09:18):
I mean, is it?

Speaker 2 (02:09:19):
You know we go into next to infighting? I mean,
what's what's the next step on to nice raw? Do
you think.

Speaker 4 (02:09:27):
Being how they booked that that it was that it
was the final chapter of the story and that John
Cena beat everybody and one and now John Cena is
firmly entrenched in w W. Again, to me, you do
you celebrate John Cene? Number one? He's back, he rose
to every challenge. He's not ever leaving w W. You

(02:09:49):
make all that sentimental nonsense that they do from time
to time to bond John Cena fans and the fans
of the brand, and then you get it involved. You
get John Cena and involved in something else, whether it's
whether it's Miss and I think about Miss. I get
involved with Miss because Randy Orton, you know, and maybe
get Randy Orton involved in Nexus or some sort of

(02:10:12):
personal thing with way Bare, But I might, I might
take Nexus off the air for a little while and
and bring them back, not take them off so they're gone,
but bring them back in a few weeks and have
them with a new goal and somebody else to attack,
and just you know, the chapter, the chapters between Nexas

(02:10:32):
and John Cena are over with and move on. I
don't know that. I don't see how you get heat
back from that. I mean, I don't know where they're
gonna do. Whether you're gonna get gang tackle and beat
him up. That doesn't do anything to him, that doesn't
that doesn't affect him. And you know they already had him,
you know, they already had him as a slave, and
that didn't affect him. So you know, what else is
there to do? I mean, when you go to such

(02:10:53):
when you go to such a streams in the first place,
you know, it doesn't leave you with.

Speaker 7 (02:10:58):
Much with much else.

Speaker 4 (02:11:00):
Once she's once she's back in w W, story is
over so and once he's back and beats a guy
like a n and mule, the story is definitely ever
so move on to something else. Get John's sea, celebrate
Johnsen and get him and get him into something that
means something. Again, I want this meant something, but get
into something different that means something he should remember one star.

Speaker 2 (02:11:22):
Yeah, I imagine that it will sort of be the
build to the Rumble, you know, seeing I mean I
don't I don't know how they involve the rod GM,
but you know, maybe Sena is forced into a qualifying
match for for the Rumble and he wins that, you know,
something where they build toward he's on the quest for
the w W title and his quest begins with the Rumble.

(02:11:44):
I don't know what they do with six weeks of
TV to get there, and they have they actually have
some TV time to get to the Rumble, you know,
and hopefully at tonight's show, but we'll find out what's
going on with with Miss and I wait, wait, Miss
and Morrison and you have kind of Ardon and Shane
and Zena kind of out on the outskirts.

Speaker 4 (02:12:02):
But you know that's actually true because I mean that
doesn't mess up Sena because NS already has a number
one contender and that's John Morrison. And I do think
that Roll Rumble is is their one Gimmick Night because
it means something to wrestle Mania, and because of the
unique nature of the match where you you know, where
there's always the next thing could be really cool. I

(02:12:22):
think there's something to that, but the next thing could
be this. The match may suck halfway through it, but
the next guy can come out and change everything. And
just that, just that idea really carries that Derick and
and the guys that are in they're going to go
to wrestle Media. They've really put that ever strong and
it's it's a real consequence. You get something when you

(02:12:43):
win to Roll Rumble, you get something that means something.
And so you know, I don't know, I think you
celebrate John Cena and I don't think it's it's it's
not soon enough to do Role Rumble, So you know,
I don't know, we'll see, but I just think you
get John c you know, and and Nexus, and you
separate them and you move on to whatever it is
was coming next for that group and your top score.

Speaker 2 (02:13:07):
Yep, yeah what what what what brus Johnny? Any other
fault on you from you or another question?

Speaker 9 (02:13:13):
Yeah?

Speaker 6 (02:13:14):
Yeah, I mean I just I just thought.

Speaker 24 (02:13:15):
He should should have left in a stretcher last night.

Speaker 6 (02:13:17):
That's the way that show should have ended.

Speaker 2 (02:13:19):
I mean it should have been that finally wait there
getting over him, and he should have left.

Speaker 4 (02:13:22):
There's no reason for him.

Speaker 7 (02:13:23):
I mean said he should have left in a stretcher.

Speaker 2 (02:13:26):
Do you think they're gonna go.

Speaker 4 (02:13:29):
So you're a big John Cena. God, you're a big
fan of John Cena and and his jeene shorts and
his rapping and and how he wins, how he wins everything,
and you're a big fan of John Sea.

Speaker 2 (02:13:42):
No, no, I'm saying you should have left in a stretcher.
I'm saying he should have.

Speaker 7 (02:13:44):
Been destroyed last night.

Speaker 4 (02:13:46):
Oh Okay, I got.

Speaker 12 (02:13:49):
He should.

Speaker 2 (02:13:49):
He should He should have never done that was gonna
say he should. They should have ever sacrifice the way.

Speaker 7 (02:13:52):
The way they didn't left in the stretch last night,
destroyed my weight, not the way I mean that's the
way that they did it. Do you think what with
the with the Royal Rumble, See they could put you
know what I mean?

Speaker 12 (02:14:02):
They have to put big, big man events though, don't
give a shot to the will go.

Speaker 8 (02:14:06):
Against Edge the Royal Rumble for the title.

Speaker 17 (02:14:09):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:14:09):
Verson That's interesting to me is what they do to Lee.
First of all, did they put mis Morrison at the Rumble?
I mean I think that they should. I think they
could stretch you out six weeks of TV to that.
I hope they don't just give away on RAW. But
on the SmackDown side, I mean, do they do the
Edge Kane rematch on TV? Do they save with the Rumble?

(02:14:29):
Do we even want to consider six more weeks of
Edging Kane or Edge and Explode? I mean, what are
they doing the smackdownside?

Speaker 4 (02:14:35):
Do you think you know? You can? Also you can
also just pretend like there isn't a rematch bos you know,
Keys of Aniacs, So maybe he doesn't want to rematch
and just in this Edge and Kane, Nos, I don't
see Edge and seeing it because that would require seeing
it to be on the on the V show and
not the A show for for too long or I mean,

(02:14:57):
I don't know unless they just smack Down is dead
in the water and we'll just put our big show,
a big star off both shows because there's no way
that we can overexpose John Cema. I think they're wrong
about that, but if that's what they think, so there's
just not enough, you know, del Rio, Edge in del
Rio seems to me like the like the most likely thing,

(02:15:22):
and I was surprised that Edge one. I thought del
Rio would probably be a better future holder of that title,
and then the Bay faces that they have to chase him.
So I don't, you know, I don't know. I don't
think there's enough cards to play. I mean, right now,
there's not enough stars that are over to put into

(02:15:42):
fresh matchups. I'm really I'm very interested to see what
they've got in mind for WrestleMania. And I mean my
feeling is they're banking on they must be banking on
some some sort of celebrity home run thing, whether it's
Rock Western or whoever it is that they can get.
I'm not saying they can get Rock Western. I think
the point as they can, but and I don't know
what else is there, but it's I think we're in

(02:16:05):
the first some newsworthy weeks coming in the roll rumble
and coming out of the ro Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:16:11):
I agree with you on that, Johnny good call. Good
to hear from me today.

Speaker 1 (02:16:21):
You don't have to wait for the way Keller Prog
Wrestling post show to find out what I thought of
Monday Night Raw and SmackDown each week. You can check
out my reports that are updated live throughout Raw and
SmackDown at pwtorch dot com. My written report will tell
you what's happening in detail in case you missed the show,
and it will also analyze key segments and give my
random thoughts quips on what I'm watching as it airs.

(02:16:43):
So check it out every Monday night and Tuesday night
at petewtorch dot com. That also applies to WWE pay
per views. I cover those live at pw torch dot
com with a detailed written report with star ratings, and
of course you can find other TV reports from other
contributors to pw torch such as an X, t R,
o H, Impact Wrestling and more. Check it out p
w torch dot com your first stop for TV and

(02:17:06):
pay per view written records.

Speaker 2 (02:17:17):
Let's go to our next phone call from these four
four to eight oh area code four eight oh. Welcome
to the show. Please state your name where you're from?

Speaker 4 (02:17:25):
All right?

Speaker 12 (02:17:26):
I am David from Phoenix, Arizona.

Speaker 2 (02:17:28):
Hey, David, is this your first time calling in? I've
called it a couple of times. Okay, cool, don't pay
an attention to him. Go ahead, David, I don't think
I've called in in like six.

Speaker 4 (02:17:44):
Months, but I haven't forgotten.

Speaker 2 (02:17:50):
Go ahead, down. I was wondering if either of you
guys got a chance to check out that Eric Bischoff.

Speaker 3 (02:17:57):
Calling into another log Talk Rady Know podcast.

Speaker 7 (02:18:01):
I don't know you talked about it earlier.

Speaker 2 (02:18:03):
Oh yeah, very interesting, Yeah, Bruce, I mean I listened
to it on this Weekend's been so long. I listened
to it on Saturday or Sunday, I don't remember what
day it was. Finally got my notes up today on it.
Listened to it a couple of times because it was
just it was really interesting. Have you have you listened
to it or have you just kind of read what
he said? What's kind of your reaction to bishops interview?

(02:18:27):
Believe Michael Barton was the host to give him credit.
Your reaction to the Bishops interview?

Speaker 4 (02:18:34):
Well, you know, James, I would have listened to a
Saturday afternoon but as you're aware, I'm a big Texas Longhorn,
so I was supporting the Texas Longhorns, and you know
I was there for I was there for for Rick
Barnes and you know the boys.

Speaker 2 (02:18:48):
So yeah, so.

Speaker 4 (02:18:55):
You know, I know, Lord knows I've lived through that,
I've seen that, I know, I know how it works.
So my reaction to it is, I think Eric went
down the line where he found somebody that he could
that he could pick on, and you know, I don't
think I don't think it votes well. I think that

(02:19:17):
if if he was feeling successful and doing really well,
he wouldn't be doing that. And you know, I can't
blame the guy for not being prepared, because how was
he supposed to know that, Eric Mitchell, because I know
they've gone back and forth on Facebook, which is you know,
I said, I sent the staff meeting today and had
the principal and the principal. I'm a school teacher, and

(02:19:38):
the principal talk to the staff. Suedes that we get
to speech every six months about you know, using social
media and how it can you know, it's more it's
more sensitive as school teacher than pro pro wrestling, as
you can imagine, but that you can get yourself in
trouble doing that, So you know, I don't know, I mean,
I'm not I'm not surprised. And from what I'm stood

(02:20:00):
the debate, the guy that was doing his is his
things said that he wasn't prepared for it, and he
didn't think he did that well. But you know, Eric
gets frustrated. I think Eric Big Bishop is frustrated that
he's not seen as this great genius who changed wrestling
and and the TNA is not doing well. TENA was

(02:20:21):
doing well. I don't think he's seeing him doing that.
I think that if Shane Elms was working somewhere, I
don't think he'd see Shane Elms doing it.

Speaker 1 (02:20:27):
That.

Speaker 4 (02:20:28):
If Matt Hardy was satisfied and doing very well, I
don't think that you would see him using social media
the way he's been using it. And he was the
one that was successful for a while, you know, a
few a few years ago by getting his case out
to his fans, to people that cared about him, about
Leader and Edge. He he did his solf some harmon

(02:20:50):
in the end probably you know, elevated his career somewhat.
Now they don't seem to know how to use it.
And you just get this frustration or greats And you know,
I've heard for twenty years you just want any improves yourself.
And I just guarantee you anytime, anytime that the people
that the people that work in this industry of covering

(02:21:12):
pro wrestling and covering and objectively hear that we don't
pay attention to that. I mean, it's just, you know,
you've got to do better than that. And if you
want to, if you want, if you're upset with somebody
that somebody's written or something that they've said, I wish
that Eric Bischoff and Matt Hardy and Shane Helms and
everybody else's comes up with from time to time, but

(02:21:33):
be specific, call the name of the person and say
exactly what they wrote and exactly what they said, and
rebutted with facts and not just not just this kind
of this kind of horse horses as stuff. I mean,
at the end of the day, you know, we do it,
you know, end of the day. If we report things
that are inaccurate, people are gonna stop listening to us.

(02:21:55):
If we haven't analysis is not any good, people are
gonna start supporting the newsletter, stop supporting the website. It's
and that has not happened, and it had happened in
twenty years. And there's a reason, you know, there's a
reason why not because we always perfect at it, and
not that there are things that we don't know that
we don't understand because our perspective is different from people

(02:22:16):
who have lived in the locker room. But there are
lots of things that you do understand, and you know,
it just comes down to it comes down to I
can't cook, but I go to a restaurant and someone
someone gives me a meal that's not properly prepared and
it doesn't taste good. I know the difference. You know,
as long as they're doing as long as they're putting

(02:22:38):
out a product for other people to judge by spending
money on it, you know, do a good job and
shut up and the money will come your way. Stop wanting.

Speaker 2 (02:22:47):
That's what always gets me, is bishops central argument is that, well,
you've never been in the TV industry.

Speaker 4 (02:22:53):
You don't know what you know.

Speaker 2 (02:22:54):
You don't know what it takes to put together a
TV show. You don't know what executives are looking for.
Yadayad yaday. It doesn't matter when you're evaluating the product.
You know, I consider to watch a TV show it
if it doesn't make sense, if it's you know, of
logic throughout the window and favorite convenience, and the characters
aren't connecting with me, and they don't seem very relevant,
and it seems kind of cheap. That doesn't it doesn't

(02:23:15):
take it rocket science to figure out, you know, why
no one's watching. It's very you know, you don't need
to be an industry. You understand why certain things don't work.

Speaker 4 (02:23:24):
And that's always air frustration. Isn't with the guy that
did the that did the podcast. Air frustration that is
is way up the ladder. But he's not secure in
his ability to explain why his thought is right and
why things are actually working. And you know, if this
thing is making money, let's see the figures.

Speaker 7 (02:23:46):
If not.

Speaker 4 (02:23:47):
If not, you know, people can add up. It's not
like it's hard to figure. And it's not like our
many sources saying it's not it's not making money at all.
I mean, it's not like it's a secret. So let's see.
Let's see what Let's see what you have up that
can back up what you're saying. If not, Eric's Eric's
record of credibility. And this goes through his book, goes

(02:24:09):
through controversy, creates cash, it goes through a lot, it
goes through the sale of w CW. And what happened
to w CW after the successful time is not good.
He has a record of public statements and a lot
of them, a lot of them aren't that credible. So
I just think he went I think he was frustrated
with somebody else, was not secured his ability to argue

(02:24:32):
with them, or to a few, whatever it is he was,
he was upset by and so he went down the
line until he found somebody he thought he could bully.
And I don't respect that. And you know, I mean,
I think that bitchoff has accomplished some things in proessional Russells,
There's no doubt. And he's also done a lot of damage.
There's no doubt about that. And I think the damage

(02:24:53):
at this point in his career outweighs outweighs the sparking
that Monday Night warri It really does, because there should
be a WCW and the TNA effort has been has
been very weak with the session of his own performances,
and those performances to no avail. The creative side has
been has not been successful at all. So I'm sorry,

(02:25:16):
you know, And I think I see that with I
think that frustration of well, people say I'm not doing
a good job. Well, it can't be that I'm not
doing a good job, because then then the gig is up,
so it has to be there's something wrong with them.
Well there's not. The numbers don't lie. You know. You
can't just go and you can't just say things like
they said, like it's come out of TNA that nobody

(02:25:39):
can get over anymore because the audience is too small.
Stuff like that. You can get somebody over. You get
somebody over, you have a real start and you know
what you're doing. You start with a hundred people, because
those hundred people are gonna tell some people and it
will grow. You know, you can start with whatever. I mean.
There's been wrestling promotions that start with a lot smaller
base in TNA has had and grown from that. Hard

(02:26:00):
these days is the Is the bar really tough because
of how much money's put in production? Sure? Itance, but
during that business, make it work. And if you don't
make it work, you know, there are people that are
objectively writing about it like a business journal, like it's
a business and looking at what you do ethically and

(02:26:21):
making judgments about it. Stop crying about it. Stop saying
that it doesn't map. You can't possibly judge it. Sure
you can. You know, if you don't want people to
judge it. Don't put it on television. Go have your
wrestling show closed to the doors, don't let any fans in,
and do whatever you wanted to. Beautiful, but when you
are charging people, when you want people to come in,
then there's an implicit judgment that comes in with that.

Speaker 2 (02:26:45):
Yep, David, good call. Appreciate that you bringing it up
because I definitely wanted to get Bruce's thoughts on that.
Let's go to our final phone call today from the
five one seven area code five one seven. Welcome to
the show. Please get you to day where you're from.

Speaker 24 (02:27:00):
Hey, this is Pony from Portland, Oregon.

Speaker 2 (02:27:02):
Hey, Tony, what's going on today?

Speaker 7 (02:27:05):
Uh?

Speaker 24 (02:27:05):
It's pony like a horse.

Speaker 2 (02:27:06):
But anyway, Oh hey, hey, well did you email me?

Speaker 24 (02:27:10):
I wanted to bring up what's that?

Speaker 2 (02:27:12):
Did you email me earlier?

Speaker 23 (02:27:14):
I did?

Speaker 17 (02:27:15):
I did?

Speaker 2 (02:27:15):
Actually, Okay. I loved your.

Speaker 24 (02:27:16):
Analysis about the the state of WWE and how they're
not doing anything to get people invested emotionally.

Speaker 22 (02:27:24):
In the product anyway.

Speaker 2 (02:27:26):
But that's not what I called to talk about.

Speaker 8 (02:27:28):
One two things.

Speaker 2 (02:27:29):
The first one was what do you think about.

Speaker 24 (02:27:34):
As a heal potentially and having feud with Edge for
the title going into wrestle me. I think that might
be kind of fresh. I don't know if they've done
that a program between those two.

Speaker 2 (02:27:43):
Yeah, wait, Bruce, is that something that you think could
happen or how do you see him coming back?

Speaker 4 (02:27:48):
They have done programs with Edge and Triple H, and
usually it's made I mean, in the past, it's been
made very clear that Edge doesn't live caught up to
the standard of the Triple H sucks. I would say,
I mean, there's a chance of that gone raw. Triple
H isn't going to SmackDown for any link of time.
That that's just my guess about that. As far as

(02:28:11):
as far as Triple H being a heal, it's possible.
They're they're live on babyfaces right now.

Speaker 2 (02:28:16):
But yeah, I mean I think that it's possible. I don't.
I just won't see Triple H going to SmackDown, you know,
I don't. I mean, I don't see that happening.

Speaker 7 (02:28:26):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (02:28:27):
Any follow thoughts from you real quick?

Speaker 4 (02:28:30):
Well?

Speaker 24 (02:28:30):
One final thing, This is just a common scene that
I've seen popping up a lot lately in your guys writing.
Is the real being really critical of chair shots? And
I thought that the uh Generico steam match on Saturday,
the finish.

Speaker 4 (02:28:48):
Of that match.

Speaker 2 (02:28:50):
If you could possibly make a case second a chair
shot being.

Speaker 24 (02:28:55):
Valid being used that you know, legitimately in a man
I would think that that would be the case. I mean,
there's gotta be some sometimes where uh you know, obviously
you don't want to use it. Uh you know the
way they were in ECW, you know, like just as
a regular move in a match, but having it be
a match ender like that.

Speaker 4 (02:29:16):
What do you think?

Speaker 24 (02:29:17):
I mean, do you think there's ever a place for
ever ever?

Speaker 4 (02:29:19):
Ever?

Speaker 2 (02:29:20):
And yeah, I gotta cuts you off real quick, Pony,
I know, I don't think there's ever a place for
each your shot of the head VERU real quick? Your
thoughts on that?

Speaker 4 (02:29:28):
I mean I kind of talked about what what I thought.
I mean, it would have to be a very special
occasion and at and everyone would have to act like
a nuclear bomb got dropped.

Speaker 2 (02:29:38):
Yeah, yeah, that might that's I just I really don't
think that should be in play ever. But yeah, we
got to end the discussion there, and definitely a topic
that we can talk about again another time. Pony appreciates
your call. Things they want to listening to live cast
today and we'll talk to everyone again on Tuesday.

Speaker 1 (02:30:12):
Invite you to email the show with feedback or questions
or comments. That email address is Wade Keller Podcast at
petewtorch dot com. That's Wadekeller Podcast at PW torch dot com.
Also welcome your feedback on Twitter. You can follow us
on Twitter at pw torch and follow me at the
Wadekeller That's at PW torch and at the Wade Keller.

Speaker 25 (02:30:35):
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(02:30:57):
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Thanks for listening to our podcast. Did you know we
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Speaker 11 (02:31:30):
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Europe or Mexico. There's always a place for wrestlings past

(02:31:51):
and the paradise too, and we've done fun historical shows
such as the We Love Liger series celebrating the glorious
career of Jusian Thunderlike and our I Was there When
shows where our guests will join me to talk about
a classic bout that they were in attendance for. We
love variety and you can expect lots of it at
the Progress Paradise. Detailed PW tors VIP subscription information on

(02:32:14):
a list of all the VIP benefits is available at
pw torch vip info dot com and Yes, All VIP
podcasts are compatible with popular podcast apps on iPhone and
Android devices, or you can stream them directly from our
ad free VIP mobile site, See you in the Paradise.

Speaker 1 (02:32:33):
One way that you can help us sustain our schedule
of putting out podcasts throughout the week is by giving
us a five star rating on Apple Podcasts. Just go
to Apple Podcasts and look for our Weightkeler Prosing podcast
and Weightkeller Prossing post show and give us a five
star rating. We hope you think we've earned that score
with our fast turnaround times and our quantity and quality
of wrestling analysis throughout the week. So take a moment

(02:32:55):
out for us and do us favor and give us
a five star rating at Apple Podcasts. That helps us
on search returns and helps us grow. And if you want,
you can add a few comments about what you like
about the programs in the comments section. Thank you so much.

Speaker 26 (02:33:10):
In twenty twelve, NXT transitioned into the developmental system and
ultimately the brand you see today On the Torch VIP
podcast NXT eight years back, we'll be taking a weekly
look at this page in NXT's early history.

Speaker 9 (02:33:26):
Join Kelly Wells and me Tom Stout from PWT talks
NXT every Saturday as we go eight years back to
the day to track NXT's rising talents and why they
did or didn't work out Exclusively for PW Torch VIP members.

Speaker 1 (02:33:39):
A PW Torch VIP membership doesn't just give you add
free access to these shows and a ton of other
VIP exclusive podcasts throughout the week, but you also gain
access to our unmatched vast library of wrestling history, our
contemporaneous week to week coverage through our progressing Torch weekly
newsletters dating back to the late nineteen eighties, along with
streaming and download access to hundreds of retro radio shows
from the nineteen nineties, including some of my interviews with

(02:34:02):
wrestling's top newsmakers in the nineties, and also our podcast
library dating back to the year two thousand and three.
There's no larger, longer spanning pro wrestling podcast library than
that that comes with a PW Torch VIP membership. Now'
approaching twenty years of podcasting, Go VIP and dive into
our post pay per view roundtables are covered with some
of your favorite eras of wrestling, top name long form

(02:34:25):
interviews and special format podcasts that we've done throughout the years.
Pw torch dot com slash go VIP. We have a
streamline sign up for me and you can pay it
with PayPal or directly with your credit card or debit card.
In one or two minutes from right now, you can
be a VIP member and diving into our library. Pw
torch dot com slash go VIP

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