15 YRS AGO LIVECASTS: Undertaker-Lesnar at Bragging Rights, Goldust, Kevin Nash, TNA ratings drop, flaws in top TNA babyfaces

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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Speaker 2 (01:05):
Now, PW Torch and Speaker bring you the Wade Killer
Pro Wrestling Podcast.

Speaker 1 (01:16):
Today, we're bringing you a double hatter of shows from
fifteen years ago. This week, first up is James Caldwell
with PW Torch Nostalgia columnist Brian Hoops talking with live
callers on the October twenty second, twenty ten episode of
the Pew Torch Daily Cast the previous night's t ANDA
Impact in depth, why the show was improved, but just
can't answer the question of why anything discussed matters. Breaking

(01:36):
news analysis of the Impact rating dropping, the Breaking Rights
pay per view going up against USC one, twenty one
gold dusts rise in the year twenty ten, analysis of
the top five babyfaces in TNA, being flawed, characters to
oppose Team Immortals, and more. In the previously VIP exclusive
after show, they've talked about why RVD was in WWE's
upcoming video game, predictions for the Breaking Rights pay per View,

(01:58):
whether anyone would buy Kevin Ash against Undertaker at a
WrestleMania twenty years ago, flashback conversation about W'SA and B
House shows, and the Cactus Jack Torch Talk interview. And
then on the October twenty fifth, twenty ten episode, I
hosted with Bruce Mitchell and we talked to live callers
about the brock Lesner Undertaker situation, the booking and match
results at the previous night's WWE Breaking Rights pay perview,

(02:19):
a caller with a live perspective on the pay per view,
Also that night's raw preview WWN TNA being held responsible
for wrestler health issues and whether TNA should or does
get a pass, and much more so Let's get to
it again. The show's originally live streamed on October twenty
second and twenty fifth, twenty ten, and it is today's
Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast fifteen years ago flashback for Monday,

(02:41):
October twenty seventh, twenty twenty five.

Speaker 3 (02:48):
You're listening to the PW Torch live cast. This is
PW Torch Assistant editor James Caldwell hosting today on Friday,
October twenty first for twenty second, twenty ten. And I'm
joined today by Torch Nostalgia Colmas, Brian Hoops. Brian, how
are you doing today?

Speaker 4 (03:04):
Hey?

Speaker 5 (03:04):
I'm doing really good, James. I'm ready for the weekend though,
how about you?

Speaker 3 (03:08):
Yeah, big, big, big weekend of UFC one twenty one
with brock lest the Bragging Rights pay per view on
Sunday night. You know this Sunday's pay per view. I
don't know if it's gonna be the least spot pay
per view in a long time, or if somehow W

(03:30):
can convince people the last second order this pay per view.
But I think they're in trouble this weekend, Brian, and
we'll get to that during the show tonight. Obviously, with
two big pay reviews this weekend, Comcast is trying to
cross promote them the leading cable company in the US,
and obviously flyers and emails from Comcasts basically saying please

(03:51):
order folks pay per views, so that they're trying to
cross promote that kind of us as the cool factor
of the UFC one twenty one to perhaps give a
rub to bragging rights a Sunday, and of course Brian
will talk about TNA impact last night. We'll kind of
start off talking about that. You know, last night's show.
You know, I didn't really have a problem with I mean,

(04:15):
there are certain things I had a problem with on
the show, but I don't have a problem with the
overall show. My concern is that I don't know what
any of this means, you know what I mean, it
doesn't feel like anything on this shows is going somewhere.

Speaker 4 (04:29):
You know, the heel factions.

Speaker 3 (04:31):
Are fighting over I guess one heel faction is fighting
over control of a company, but they haven't really established
that it's worth fighting over, you know what I mean.
So everything is kind of aimed at this this loose,
vague idea of fighting for control. But if what they're
fighting for doesn't have any value, then what's the point.

(04:54):
What's kind of your evaluation of what you saw last night?
And just an overall picture p and A's grand scheme
of storylines right now, Losier Brian, I guess we lost
Brian in for a second. We'll get him back on
the line as he he. Uh will get him back on,
but I'll go ahead and plug the number of calls
we're going to join us on the live cast today.

(05:16):
The number is six four, six seven.

Speaker 6 (05:19):
Eight.

Speaker 3 (05:20):
We'll be taking phone calls all throughout the hour. Hopefully
we'll get some TNA impact ratings during the during the
hour that we're on the air live, you're on blog
pock radio.

Speaker 7 (05:28):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (05:29):
No radios info yet, which could be a good thing
or could be a bad thing.

Speaker 7 (05:33):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (05:34):
We've been getting Radius info pretty promptly when there's good
news report, Uh not so much lately. Uh, Brian, will
you back on with us?

Speaker 2 (05:42):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (05:42):
I'm not sorry about that, but I'm here today.

Speaker 3 (05:45):
Yeah, just thrown into you for your thoughts on on
last night's t ANDA impact and uh kind of what
you saw on the show and the overall grand scheme
of uh, you know, the storyline that they're trying to build,
which is, you know, Bishop and Ogan taking over. Does
that mean anything if they're not fighting over much of
anything of value in you know, what can they do

(06:08):
to make this seem like there's actually something on the
line and something that stay with this storyline?

Speaker 5 (06:13):
You know, the main focus of not only the TNA
program but also the Reaction show I thought was building
on that storyline, and they did a half way decent
job of going back through the history and showing clips
during Reaction of you know, different things during the year
of Bishop and Hogan kind of working together and staying
allos revealing the secret to the Garter, but Bischoff stopping.

(06:35):
Even so, there was there's some parts of the show
that I liked, and from that standpoint, it kind of
revealed a lot of things. But I think your point
that you're making is spot on. What what is the
point of having this group together and what are they
fighting over? You know what, what's the next step for
it when obviously they're they're trying to recreate the nWo
with Hogan and using Jeff Hardy as.

Speaker 3 (06:58):
Kind of the lead heel.

Speaker 5 (06:59):
Now it just doesn't have that same dramatic or that
same player, and you just don't have the same dynamic
overall of characters in here. And I think it's the
function of not only the characters.

Speaker 3 (07:12):
Bryan, you're breaking up a little bit, are you? Are
you still there? Well, we'll get We'll get Brian back
in a second. Yeah, I think you know, Brian. What
one of the things I liked about last night's show
where the promos and the vignettes ahead of time, head
of the matches, UH, trying to establish a sense of
value to the actual matches, except for the amazing Red

(07:32):
Robie ematch in some of the segments. But the problem
is that they've rendered matches kind of useless in the
sense that what happens belt Bell doesn't settle anything. You know.
That's what the purpose of a match should be, is
to settle an issue, either short term or long term.
Long term, You're not pay per view short term kind
of building towards something bigger down the line. These matches

(07:54):
are rendered useless in the sense that there's simply another
part of the storyline leading to another storyline on top
of another storyline. The the the post match takes precedent
over the match, and so, uh, you know, you have this,
you know, pretty decent pre match kind of painting the
picture for the match, but then the match itself, you know,

(08:16):
it doesn't really have any intrinsic value. It doesn't mean anything.
It's kind of leading somewhere else, and the match doesn't
really serve a purpose other than being another part of
the storyline. You know, Brian, that aspect of it. What
do you think of how that? You know, how the
the wrestling quotion the last Night show was presented.

Speaker 5 (08:34):
Well, yeah, you look at two matches, in particular the
TV time match.

Speaker 4 (08:38):
It was just a.

Speaker 5 (08:39):
Completely overbooked from the standpoint that they were doing nothing
but trying to get over the storyline h between between
AJ styles and you know, why not let the Pope
and AJ have a match. Let they have good athleticism
between the two of them. They could have produced a
good match, But yet it was all about the storyline
and and having it to be a no DQ match

(09:00):
and then actually having someone interfere it just seemed to
me that it was overbooked, and really it was, like
you said, just building a storyline to build on top
of the storyline. And I think Lance Storm had written
an article I thought it was real good where he
talked about how matches are supposed to be the end
of the storylines. You build an angle and work that
up to the match through interviews and promos or visionets

(09:21):
or whatever. You get to the match and that's the
end of the story or the end of the angle.
That should be the payoff and anymore. Wrestling in Last
nineteen eight was a good example of it that it's
not the payoff anymore. It's just a continuation of the storyline.
And you saw that also in that Ultimate X match
no Athleticism. You know, they had the storyline with mister

(09:41):
Anderson having a hurt shoulder and the entire faction came
in and you know, you know, Matt Morgan helped him
assisting in the wind. So it was just again a
storyline after storyline after storyline building on things instead of
having that culmination of a match.

Speaker 3 (09:58):
I would almost rather not see a match, you know,
I would rather just see two hours of of them.
I mean I don't even know where they're going, Like
I said, the top. You know, it's sort of one
of those things where I get the sense of WW
at times when they kind of lose track of themselves
and what they're doing, which is, well, what's the point
of all this? You know, where where is any of

(10:19):
this leading? What? What is where does anyone fighting over?
What is uh? What are Bishop and Flair and Hoakan
what are they fighting over? I mean what the TNA
holds them? Uh?

Speaker 7 (10:29):
You know what?

Speaker 3 (10:30):
Where is it a spring board? Is is something bigger if
they control t and A or are they going outside
of themselves to have control over a larger empire? I mean,
I don't get that sense that they can do that
with a storyline. So, you know, I would rather just
not have any matches. If you're not going to protect
the match, if the match is just going to be
a storyline on top of a storyline, just don't have

(10:52):
a match, you know, do something different, dud. Don't call
it wrestling, because obviously you're you're not protecting the value
of a wrestling match. You know, Beer Money versus Arbity
and Sad Bill pretty decent match, but the match wasn't
about competing for you know, a higher physician in the
in the tag team division, or seeking uh you know,

(11:12):
a higher payout, you know, fifteen thousand verse ten thousand
and sort of a fictional monetary pipe payoffs. It was
about you know, RVD and Saboo and can they trust
each other? And is arready paranoid? And and it was
sort of the match was a means to the end
of the storyline. Well not even to a match or
an angle. Uh, I mean, I'm sorry, another match or

(11:34):
you know, paint off the angle going down the road.
It was just a storyline on top of a storyline
within the match, and just don't have a match. Don't
call it wrestling, you know, don't say you're TNA wrestling
and have matches, I don't mean anything. Yeah, that's that
came frustrating.

Speaker 5 (11:48):
Yeah, that's the case of of Vince Ruco Russo and
is overbooking. You know, why not just have a match
with and and build up the fact of you know,
you me c W, Saboo and Rob Van Dam they
trained together, they came into the business together, they were
big stars and ECW together. Why not build bad up
as your lead angle against the new team of beer
money instead of having this dissension that we've seen time

(12:11):
after time and again. And you know, that led to
an angle. And so another storyline was between RVD and
Tabu and the EV two and another point I was
gonna make I think when you kind of lost my signal,
there was you know when when Hogan and the NWA
nWo was formed in nineteen ninety six, it was pretty
obvious that they were coming into control WCW, and WCW

(12:35):
eventually was gonna have to stand up against them, and
that created, you know a sense of urgency for Lex
Luger and Sting and the Giant at one time to
come in and stand up for WCW. Who's gonna stand
up for TNA, for Dixie Carter? At this point are
who are the stars that are going to stand up
to Hogan and Jeff Party because you haven't created anybody
in that role. You know, the smaller Joe's being kind

(12:55):
of rendered us less again, Jeff Jarrett, it certainly isn't over.

Speaker 4 (13:00):
And uh, you know j A. J.

Speaker 5 (13:01):
Salswood would have been great in that role, but he's
right now with with the Fortune Group.

Speaker 3 (13:07):
Yeah, and that's that's the biggest issue for me is
that they didn't have ready made babyfaces, ready to be
that sting character, to be that top star to say,
you know what, I'm not gonna I'm gonna stand up
for TNA. And then Dixie Carter is the authority figure
of opposite Bischoff and Hogan. I mean, Dixie Carter has
been rendered. I mean they basically just in the context

(13:28):
of the storyline, they basically rendered her. They just stripped
her of any authority, you know. I mean, it's not
even a sense of of man. The heels are aligning.
They they're so full of untruth and they're ridiculous in
these comments like I can't have for Dixie to make
the comeback and and and form a team that's gonna
go opposite this group. They stripped her down of any

(13:49):
of any sense of authority. You know, she has no
credibility based on the storyline has played out, because everything
that they have said could be viewed as, oh, yeah,
that's actually kind of true, Oh yeah that she is
kind of done for doing that, and yeah, I really
didn't like that EV two angle and it was gonna lame,
and they brought them back, and it was gonna lame.
What she said about Hogan and Flair and comparing them

(14:11):
to comparing EV two to Hogan and Flair. You know,
it's not really a matter of the heels lying. So
you don't have any incredible babyfaces to stay up against
the heels. What are you gonna do? I mean, where's
this leading to? And that's kind of my issue overall
with this this program. I mean, don't get me wrong,
I thought last that show, it was a pretty decent
show in the sense of their focus and they know

(14:31):
they're going I assume, but I don't know that any
of it matters. And that's the overall problem that I
have right now is I don't know. I don't get
the sense that they're fighting over something important. You know,
it just feels like they're there and they don't really
have a purpose there. So they're going to create a purpose,
Hogan and mish Off and you know, and that's their

(14:52):
purpose is to just be on TV doing the single
right and one thing.

Speaker 5 (14:56):
If you go back to nineteen ninety six, it was
it was very clear to all the fans at that
point where they were going. They were gonna build Hogan
as a champion. No one could defeat him. Except Stain,
who eventually would take on Hogan and defeat him at
start K ninety seven, which led to w CW's biggest
by rate ever in history. And it was very obvious
where they were going. They were building that match and

(15:17):
building it up and building anticipation. And this time you've
got Vince Russol who doesn't love to do any of that.
He loves to do swerves and things that you don't
see coming and switching guys. Feel the face, how are
they going to be? I mean, you could have a
good angle here if you wanted to build it up
from now through the winner or sometime in the spring,

(15:38):
where you build up that anticipation of having a big
match somebody's going to take down Jeff Party for the
world title and control of TNA. But does the booking
committee and Vince Russoll have that discipline and that foresight
to do that is that they can get to some
point a to point to build that match and have
a big y rate and they have not shown any

(15:58):
history of doing so.

Speaker 1 (16:01):
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(16:23):
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Speaker 3 (16:32):
You look at the top five baby faces and Tenna
right now. You got mister Anderson, who you know, he's
serviceable in that role, but he's not a top baby
face at Butter Company around. I just don't think he's
there as a star. But you're you're giving You're gonna
go ahead and see that the November with Anderson challenging
Hardy for the title rv D. He's just he's not

(16:53):
your rally around rv D. He's he's your cool baby
face you're kind of in the background and does cool
stuff in the ring, but he's not the sort of
you know leader. You have Samoa Joe, whose character has
been torn upside down in the last you know, sixteen months,
and and he talks a lot, but then they have
him look like an idiot most of the time, as

(17:14):
evidenced my last night show. For the last image of Samoa,
Joe was coming up in the fetal position on the
ground in a hole below the stage, with Jared kind
of looking down on him. Yeah, that's that's just not
you know that that takes away his credibility. It just
looks silly. And then you have who the Pope, you know,
not quite a minimum star. Uh, just not there yet,

(17:36):
you know, he's just he that's just not his position.

Speaker 7 (17:39):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (17:39):
And then you have kerd Angle, who's taking some time
off and he could come back and be that guy
that goes around, but he's also well advanced in his age.
You know, I don't know if they're sitting up for
one one last big run for Kurdingle where he goes
opposite this heel faction, that's all you have. You know,
they haven't been building up his top star to be
the top maybe think it's opposite this group. And that's

(18:01):
the problem. I don't see any of those five guys
being credible enough to go opposite them. I don't if
they think that Matt Hardy is gonna be that guy
it's that it's not Matt Hardy, so who knows, you know, Brian,
I don't. I don't know where this is going. I
am intrigued, though, I'm intrigued after what we saw at

(18:21):
the very end of last night's reaction talking about you know,
they'll have more opportunities for guys on the roster to
join or or or or say no to the immortals.
That sets up potentially be intriguing. I don't. I still
don't know where any of this is going or what
value this has. But you know, it is what it is.

(18:43):
You know, it's just sort of if you if you're
enjoying the rides and great. I just don't know where
it's going. But let's go ahead and get to some
phone calls here on the live cast again. The number
to call if you want to join uh Torch Calmus,
Brian Hoops and myself Torch isis editor James. Call well,
it is six four, six, seven, nine to eight. Let's

(19:05):
go to our first phone call today. Let's go to
the three one four area code. Three one four. Welcome
to the show. I please take your name where you're from.
Thanks for kicking the call, James. It's Dan from Saint Louis. Hey, Dan,
what do you have?

Speaker 4 (19:17):
First?

Speaker 8 (19:17):
Say, I got two questions.

Speaker 3 (19:21):
I'll go ahead and get to the first one. I'm
glad you guys mentioned RVD because my first question is
about that regarding last Thursday with you know, him kind
of shoving RVD I'm not sorry, shoving Rhino against.

Speaker 8 (19:33):
The wall on that backstage vignette, and you know, it
seemed like he had the whole dissension thing with Saboo.
I'm a pretty big fan of RVD, but I kind
of agree with the sentiment the last couple of months
that I think his character needs a refresher and he
needs to kind of switch up from this whole, you know,
cooler two goal for school deal, and especially with the
bount for Wuory match with this, I would have much

(19:54):
rather seen him, you know, just kicked the pits out
of him, kind of low key or Davey Richard Stalrat
than just set up a bunch of spots. So I
guess my first question is, do you think that the
what we saw an impact this Thursday, You think it's
a sign that they might be taking that direction with
his character, a more vicious kind of RVD, or do
you think it's just you know, Russeau trying to sell

(20:15):
the zeeds of dissension and a tag team like he
seems to be fascinated with doing recently.

Speaker 3 (20:21):
Yeah, good question, Brian, what's your what's your thoughts? Yeah?

Speaker 5 (20:24):
I think that is a good question.

Speaker 4 (20:25):
I'm on the camp that you know there.

Speaker 5 (20:27):
I don't think they're gonna change rvd's character. I don't
think he wants to make any changes. I really think
this is a case where Vince Russo is looking to
sow those seeds of dissension. He wants to create you know,
uncertainty of what's going on in the TV too, and
how many times have we seen that where taking partners
don't get along or a group doesn't get along and uh,

(20:48):
you know it's just classic real Russo booking.

Speaker 3 (20:51):
Yeah, you know our rvd's character. It's like they want
him to be a little bit more serious after the
Abyss angle, but yet it goes against who he is
as a character. He just the way he is and
until he changes, until he uh drops the high spots
and until he it's almost gone. What they had to
do with AJ styles, I mean AJ as a heel,

(21:13):
he couldn't go out there and do the back flips
and the high spots. Those are baby's face moves. And
if RVD is gonna be taken more seriously as a
top star, top baby face to go opposite of this
heel faction, he's gotta be a little bit more serious.
And I just don't know that he has that in
him as a character. And we saw that promo exchange

(21:34):
with him and Anderson last night of the I believe
the first segment on impact, and I just I didn't
get a sense that there was a lot of conviction
behind what RVDY was saying as a character. You know,
it just felt like he was kind of forcing these
I'm mad at Jeff lines and I'm gonna be first
in line to go after him, and I just I
didn't get a sense that it was natural. So I
don't know what they do. I mean, they put him

(21:55):
in the background. It's sort of a just gonna be
that cool babyface and the fans rally behind because of
this cool stuff. I just don't see him having it
within him as a character to be a top lead
baby face like a sting, you know, opposite the nWo.
It's kind of, you know, changing that character I don't
think everybody has that. So again, if they would have

(22:15):
planted the seeds in advance for this and started to
build a more Edgy or RBD character before the reveals,
then we might have a different story to talk about it.
But uh, it just doesn't feel very natural at this point.
It feels forced. So Dan, did you have another question or.

Speaker 9 (22:31):
Fall upon that?

Speaker 8 (22:33):
Yeah, I have another question, but just to follow up
on that a little bit, I do think that if
they want to make a vicious, you know, kind of
vicious turn with the r v's character, I think it
wouldn't be a bad idea to you know, maybe contact
Thela Alfonso because I think that some of the uh,
you know, the more uh the more serious character that
RVD had was like when he came back from his
injury and him and Alfonso were cutting those promos about

(22:55):
looking for you know, revenge on Scotty Anton and all
that stuff. But uh, my second question is, uh, one
of the comments I always I can hear a lot
from Wade Keller is regarding uh, He'll mention something in
TNA and I'll say, you know, you can kind of
build a show around that, like you might mention a
particular angle or uh, you know with that with Hogan
once metching with your retire and stuff like that.

Speaker 3 (23:17):
I thought it was interesting this week that.

Speaker 8 (23:19):
With the R O H show had the Davey Richards
versus Tyler Black match, and I just kind of for
him to kind of to kind of expound I guess
it kind of like you guys that expound on that
a little bit in regards to, uh, you know, that match.
It seemed like they they built that whole show around
that particular match. And is that kind of what uh
waye Keller's talking about or do you think that you know,

(23:39):
maybe they should have had like, you know, a little
bit more in the way of promos regarding that match
and now you know rest reaction we're talking about.

Speaker 3 (23:47):
Yeah, yeah, I think that. You know, obviously, in a
two hour show, it would be hard to do what
what Ring and Water did with Tyler and Davy. I
really like that. I like the fact that they set
up the show was sort of they presented a spontaneous
deal where, uh, they kind of because this match was
so important that they dropped everything they were doing instead

(24:07):
of Okay, we're gonna get these two guys time in
the ring as much time as they need, and everything
kind of fill fed into that. I think with TNA,
if you know, obviously the two hour show you can't
just have you can't have everything builds toward one match.
But I think the overlying principle, and what what Wade
talks about is that kind of it should nothing in
the first hour of that show should kind of override

(24:33):
what you're building toward in your main event. Sort of
you look at the UFC model, everything you know, can
you kind of flash back to or you kind of, uh,
you show backstage clips of the main event fighters getting
ready for their fight in the main event segment of
the show. So the match that you have built as
the most important match on let's say at UFC Fight
Night Special, throughout that show, they're gonna show those fighters

(24:55):
preparing for that fight and and everything kind of leads
to that. The the the undercard fight sort of build
toward that main event. It's what you did, what you
kind of did, and and Brian, you can talk about
this sort of the uh, the older wrestling card format was,
you know, everything kind of built toward that top match
on the card. In the context of an Impact TV show,

(25:19):
what you set up at the top of the show.
You should be building toward throughout the show until you
get to the main event. That is, if you put
the importance of your show on matches. And as Brian
I have talked about the matches and the value of
matches isn't there right now? It's just, you know, the
matches are sort of a means to an end and
in terms of a storyline development. So Brian, what are

(25:40):
you gonna what's gonna reaction to your thoughts to to
that topic.

Speaker 5 (25:43):
You know, you bring up an interesting point. And if
you go back and watch a TV show like Paul
Hammon's ECW when it was real popular, or if you
go back and even watching now in classics on the Man,
that's kind of the theme that he went with his
sixty minute program was he wasn't gonna throw a ton
of things out there and revisit every angle and everything
that was going on in one show, but he pick

(26:04):
a central theme, you know, the dudly Boys trying to
wrestle the gangsters for the title or whatever the theme was,
and they would show some clips of previous matches, review
why they were wrestling, why they were fighting, have interviews
by both parties. They'd have maybe one other match and
then come back to this central theme and it would
build up towards the end of the program where they

(26:26):
were showing that they were gonna wrestle or gonna fight
it at whatever arena and maybe do some more of
stuff inside the ring. Why they were building up towards
this big event, and it was all about having one
central focus throughout the program and building on that and
building on that until you get to the main event
and you finally got to the point where you were

(26:47):
bounding determined you had to either buy the video to
see that match, or you wanted to see the pay
per view or whatever you're building towards it, and DNA
does not have that approach whatsoever. You know that their
approach is, let's run twenty segments in the first hour,
another twenty in the second hour, and just see what happens,
and we will have forty segments and everything.

Speaker 3 (27:07):
Will be great.

Speaker 4 (27:08):
Instead of building towards.

Speaker 5 (27:09):
That that goal of by the end of the show
that you want to put your money down and see
one select match or see you know, something that's coming
up on pay per view like the brock Lesner Kane
Laska's fight. Most of the playing time, countdown time slot
is spent on that fight in particular, building up that
main event. But they also let you know if there's

(27:30):
a couple of undercard matches like Tito Ortiz and Matt Hammill.

Speaker 3 (27:35):
Yeah, and that's something that I think Wrestling Promotions struggle
with WV and TNA is is you know, so much
of it is now storyline and action and comedy and
drama central or you know, sort of focus that they're
not really building toward a specific match. They w W
wants to be action in Hollywood. T and A wants

(27:57):
to be soap opera aimed at guys, I guess, and
so they're not really building toward a central match. You know,
ringham Monitor each week on TV, they choose a specific
match that they want to build toward in the final
segment of the show, and they're gonna have promos and
videos specifically focusing on the backstory leading to that match,

(28:17):
whether it's Kevin Seen and Steve Carena, or if it's
Tyler Black and David Richards, or if it's the Briscoes
and the Kings of Wrestling. You know, each show is
specifically built for a specific match that's really the attraction
match that they're building toward, and you know, for for
better or for worse, and TENA don't do that because
of their identities not being for wrestling. Their identities are

(28:38):
Hollywood and scripted soap operas, you know, and so they
kind of deviate from that formula and I think for
worse in my opinion, for both companies. But The News
to Report just got our first glimpse at the TNA
Impact ratings for last night.

Speaker 4 (28:53):
Joke.

Speaker 3 (28:54):
The show did a one point one five rating, which
was down from last week's one point four rating. So
if I plug that in to my little spreadsheet here,
the impact ratio was down eighteen percent versus last week's show,
about in line with the rating from September thirtieth, the
week before the week before the live Impact special on

(29:18):
the seventh, So actually it was a little bit below
is the thirtieth, which is a one point one to
nine rating. Demographics were down a lot of competition on
from baseball and football last night. Brant, what's gonna your
your initial reaction last night's show with the the one
point one five rating down from the one point four
for last week. To follow up, on Valfluri.

Speaker 5 (29:40):
I think you have to point towards last week's show
having a lot of interest coming after the Bound for
Glory pay per view, a lot of interest after maybe
people read on the internet or heard about the Jeff
Hardy heel turn, and that curiosity translated into better ratings.
And I think he pointed out earlier the ratings peaked
early in the show and then tapered off as the
show went on, and it's another time that there's a

(30:02):
lot of curiosity out there. People are sampling the product
and want to see what's going on, But we just
don't have a lot of people that are being converted
into either pay per view buyers or fans that can't
stick around for the entire show. And that's what this
rating kind of tells us as well, is after that
curiosity left and the last week's show, the ratings went
down and now we're right back to that one point

(30:24):
one range that they've been treading water, and you know,
for ever since moving to to Spike and despite adding
all this massive payroll. So there's there's obviously some flaws
in the booking committee booking team. There's enough interest out
there by the names that they're bringing in or the
angles that they're running, but there just isn't enough long
term interest in the wrestling product right now.

Speaker 10 (30:46):
Need an extra dose of positivity in your wrestling podcasts,
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Speaker 4 (31:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (31:52):
I think those core hours last week were very telling,
and you know, people kind of got their fill of
the reveal and explanation and and perhaps they're said, well, Okay,
I got that, and I'll tune back again, uh, you
know later on when when something else is going on,
you know, And that sort of TNA's formula is it's
almost that they book for the next twist, you know,

(32:14):
and so the audiences, the audience has been trained to say, Okay,
we want to hear a little bit about the next twist,
then I'll tune back in again.

Speaker 7 (32:21):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (32:21):
There isn't that sort of consistent theme to the product.
It's so much about the next twist that I think
the audience kind of tunes out when there isn't a
twist coming up. And and I think that's what we're
gonna see. And that's what we saw in the quarter hours.
Once they once TNA explained the quarter once DNA explained
the twist last week, Uh, then the quarter hours indicated
the audience tuned out of the show went on. And

(32:44):
I don't I don't think that's the I don't think
that's a formula that for success for tna UH and
hasn't proven to be in a formula for success throughout
their history. And that's why we're back to at one
point one five this week. What's let's get go ahead right?

Speaker 4 (32:59):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (33:00):
Was going to say one thing. Can you imagine if
UFC built all this time building up brock Lessner and
kne Velasquas and then we got to the cage on
Saturday night and Marty Morgan turned on brock Lesner and
cost him the title. I mean, what type of credibility
would UFC have and would fans continue following on what
happened is that you're not going to buy into the

(33:21):
next pay per view because of this this twist that
came out of nowhere that doesn't make any sense just
for the sake of surprise, but the fact that if
you can build anticipation up like they're going to do
for this event tomorrow night, as you build up that anticipation,
that's what creates your interest levels.

Speaker 4 (33:36):
That's why the.

Speaker 5 (33:37):
Sting run in nineteen ninety six and the ninety seven
starkaate that build up that anticipation of Sting and Hogan
wrestling and that wasn't even until the first time, but
the fact that Sting and Hogan we're going to wrestle
for control of the title at start led to that big,
huge by rate. It wasn't any twist and turns along
the way. It was just straightforward booking. And that's really

(33:58):
one of the TNA's biggest laws.

Speaker 3 (33:59):
Right now, we'll put We'll put Brian. Yeah, let's uh,
let's go to some more phone calls again if you
want to join us in the last half hour of
the show. The number is six four six.

Speaker 4 (34:11):
Eight.

Speaker 3 (34:12):
Let's go to the three four seven areek co. Thanks
for holding. Please state you, Jami, where you're from.

Speaker 2 (34:18):
This is Dean from Brooklyn, New York. I have a
question that got in thee uh is gonna be concerned
about when they release wrestlers that they will go somewhere
else and nick and name for themselves. I mean, my
question is it is strict about trademarking names like with
Nicky j for example, Jeff Party. They let them use
their real names in w E and then they go

(34:40):
to another promotion and obviously they can use their real
name because you can't trade among them.

Speaker 3 (34:45):
Well, I mean Mickey James isn't her her real name,
but uh, I know what you're saying, which is her
sort of her w W name. And Jeff Party that's
obviously it's his real name. He can use his real name.
But uh, you know what, I just don't think WW
is that concerned about TNA right now. I think that's
you know, kind of what one of the big stories
of the year is that TNA went on Monday Nights,

(35:07):
they weren't successful, and they moved back to Thursday nights.
They're kind of off ww's radar.

Speaker 4 (35:12):
Mind.

Speaker 3 (35:13):
What's your take on that.

Speaker 5 (35:14):
Yeah, I think at one time WW was very concerned
about wrestlers jumping from their promotion to either WCW or
later TNA, and I don't think they're still concerned anymore.
You know, they're not concerned about Matt Hardy leading the company,
going to TNA and teaming up with his brother. They
weren't one time, but they're not concerned anymore, and they
released Matt Obviously. It's like you said, TNA is really

(35:37):
under their radar, really not much of a player in
the marketplace. So you know, WW is not just keeping
guys around like they did with Charlie Hatts. Last winter
where they were paying just to sit home. So he
went and jumped to TNA. They've they've they're cutting guys
lose just because they see what's happening in DNA. TNA
is not capitalizing on those names and not making stars
out of anybody.

Speaker 3 (35:59):
Yeah, I don't I don't think that uh, that B
really has any concern about a Hardy Boy reunion in TNA.
I think perhaps, you know, four years ago, maybe they
would have been a little bit of concern so sort
at the time when uh, I guess it was five
years ago when Team three D left WW to go
to TNA, and there was a little bit of concern

(36:19):
on on B's part and they didn't want them to
be Team three D, and part of that was just
gonna protecting their trademark and trying to set a precedent
for UH trademark protection. But you know, I just I
don't think that V is concerned about TNA at this point.
And I'm you know, Briley said they released Charlie Haas
after wanting to keep him from TNA. I think that's

(36:41):
kind of what have been been one of the biggest
stories of the year, is that do B you know
TNA had a chance to prove that they were worthy
number two, and so far they haven't. They just haven't
been consistent enough to make w W stand up and
take notice. And that's kind of I think part of
what's what's influenced ww's decision making on on not really

(37:01):
a feeling the need to protect certain wrestlers who could
make a difference. Yea even plugging mcfoley's book a couple
of weeks ago, obviously they were not concerned about promoting
a ten and wrestler. There so many examples this year
in that in that area. Appreciate the call. Let's go
on to the four one oh area code four one oh.
Welcome to the show, Please stay to name where you're from.

Speaker 7 (37:24):
So A from Baltimore, It was ny.

Speaker 4 (37:26):
What do you have?

Speaker 3 (37:26):
First say?

Speaker 7 (37:27):
I have a question for you. Do you guys play
any of the WW video games? Uh?

Speaker 3 (37:36):
No, I haven't played one in a milliar at all,
probably seven years, but uh yeah, familiar enough covering it. Yeah,
what's kind of your question on it?

Speaker 7 (37:43):
Well, my question is is that have you noticed that
a lot of times the storylines on the video games
are better than the storylines they actually do on the shows.

Speaker 3 (37:53):
Well, it's interesting you mentioned that because they used to
have I believe it was they would have a specific
ww creative person from the team who actually worked with THHQ. Uh, yeah,
TQ believe. Yeah, they had one person who kind of
scripted and wrote the scripted storylines for the video games.

(38:14):
It wasn't sort of a It wasn't like THHQ just
sort of made up stuff. They had one person on
creative who was given pretty much complete control from my understanding,
to actually write the storylines, and so it came across, uh,
you know, it didn't go through sort of a committee
of people who you know, if you come out with
the storyline idea, you get to pitch it to the

(38:34):
creative team, and that goes through Brian gowertz Or or
Michael Hayes and then Vince ing Maine and then too
the talent. You know, it didn't go through that whole
process where it was like Telephone, you know, the storyline
kind of starts with one person and then by the
time it gets to make Man you play Telephone to
where it's completely different, the idea sort of watered down.
My understanding is that they actually had one person or

(38:56):
maybe two people on creative who worked right with thhq
to for eight storylines, and oftentimes they were more compelling
because they didn't go through that process. It was one
person's idea. Usually they are pretty good ideas for storylines,
and that's kind of the finished product that you see
on the video game, so that that's probably why it
does come across better at times. It was another question

(39:18):
or fall up on that.

Speaker 6 (39:19):
I know.

Speaker 7 (39:20):
That's it, all right, Cole, you do work, Okay, all right.

Speaker 3 (39:23):
We appreciate the call, was a Brian, anything else to
add to that quickly? Uh?

Speaker 4 (39:28):
No, don't play any video games of w W.

Speaker 5 (39:32):
I'm glad I couldn't add anything to it anyway.

Speaker 3 (39:34):
Yeah, it's just something that that I heard. Before i'd heard,
you know, someone asked me about that and I kind
of asked around and that's when that's what I found out.

Speaker 5 (39:43):
So only thing I know about video games, James, is
that you know, when when T and A came out
with their first video game, the Suicide character was the
wrestling character was based on the Suicide video game character,
and a lot of the game was promoted around this
this character becoming a wrestler and one to Mexico or something,
and the wrestling matches to get his way back into

(40:03):
TNA or that was the story anyway, and that's where
the wrestling character came from.

Speaker 3 (40:07):
Yeah, and that worked out beautifully, But I mean to
be a fair to TEENA. They didn't win a couple
of awards for that, I believe for creative Character in
a video game or something like that, or creative integration
of a character from a video game into real life
or TV or I don't remember the exact award they won,

(40:28):
but at least they got that. As much as having
a character named suicide on your TV show is right
up there with with bone headed character names, you know,
going back to some WWF characters, you know that that's
just you don't have a character named suicide on your
TV show. It just makes a low rent in my estimation.
So it was a poor choice. So yeah, let's go

(40:53):
to the nine three one here code nine three one.
Welcome to the show. I please stay your name where
you're from.

Speaker 4 (40:58):
Hey, it's the instin Tennessee.

Speaker 3 (41:00):
I know it the end, and I don't take a
chance because I got it. I got it wrong yesterday.
I didn't want to take a chance today.

Speaker 11 (41:05):
Well, I could go with that name and everybody off. Well,
my my question was with the w W pay per
review by rate so bad do you think they're suffering
from not even announcing the full cards worth days before
the pay per view.

Speaker 4 (41:24):
Because I think they've only got four.

Speaker 11 (41:25):
Matches announced for dragging rights.

Speaker 3 (41:28):
Right, and I think one of that because that that
Robert SmackDown match is gonna it's gonna be a pretty
lengthy match with the elimination style, might get half an
hour out of that. I think that, you know what,
I don't really think that they need to announce a
full card, you know, I think they just need to
announce the the headline attraction match in advanced kind of

(41:49):
do the UFC style where a pay per view promotion
and they're both UFC and w W are both promoting
a pay per view fight card this weekend. You know, well,
obviously one is WV and one is not scripted UFC,
but they're still promoting matchups and fights on a pay
per view. And you knew, well in advance when this

(42:09):
UFC pay per view is happening, and what the the
headline match was going to be. You knew it will
be Brock versus Kane Laskaz with de V that they
don't allow the viewer to sit there anticipate Lade Merrit
versus Randy Orton four weeks and or months preferably in advance.
It just it's thrown together so quickly you don't get
us sense to anticipate the matchup and kind of be like,

(42:33):
you know what, maybe this is a pretty big matchup. Wow,
what's really gonna happen? When when Wade Barrett challenges for
the title, the promo that he had on Superstars last
night that nobody watches, but the promo that he had
to last time on Superstars should have been on Raw
when he's talking about his quests for the championship and

(42:53):
what it would mean to hold the title and and
sort of how it would fulfill this goal of Nexus
to control the and how do you get that by
control in the WW title? And they missed that storyline
and they didn't put it on until Superstars on Thursday night,
But which just to me just shows that the lack
of competence in terms of pay per view promotion from WB.

(43:16):
But I think it comes down and not having a
headline match to promote it in advance. So, Brian, what's
kind of your reaction to that and how much not
skilled out the car ahead of time affects the pay
per view buys? Like Ean brought up, well.

Speaker 5 (43:31):
I remember doing the show with you a couple of
months ago, James, where we talked about this weekend going
to be a terrible buy rate for w WE because
of the lesnar Villelasquez pay per view the night before.
But we know that history has told us anyway, the
night before a pay per view for WWE, when they
have a UFC competition, it's a death killed to them.

(43:51):
They have won their lowest buy rates every time, and
this buy rate should do you know somewhere in that
range of that eighty five to ninety thousand buys that
December two Dismember did. It's I really expect it's going
to be poor. Plus you've got competition from the NFL.
You've got Vikings Packers on Sunday night football, No doubt
there'll be a lot of people wanting to tune in

(44:12):
a matt So if you know, if you paid money
for UFC on Saturday night and you want to save
some money, you've got good entertainment to watch on as
far as football on Sunday night, you're probably gonna be
able to skip this card, especially since they've done such
a poor job of promoting this, this bragging rights event.

Speaker 3 (44:28):
I don't care if they.

Speaker 5 (44:29):
Would have announced two matches or ten matches or eight.
It was gonna do a bad no matter what, just
be based on competition. And then when you factor in
that they've done not a great job of promoting this card,
and the card lineup itself isn't all that great, the
product is stale. It just is really going to lead
to a very poor buy rate.

Speaker 4 (44:47):
I'm a prague for WW.

Speaker 3 (44:50):
You know, let's say that Random ri versus Wade Barrett
was effectively promoted in advance. Let's say that they did
hype this ma you know, you know, effectively in advanced.
Do you think that would it would have? Is that
a compelling pay per view headline match?

Speaker 7 (45:07):
You know?

Speaker 3 (45:08):
Is that does that matchup kind of rings as a
you know, something that could be worth ordering it? Or
does it really just depend on the hype?

Speaker 5 (45:16):
Well, a lot of it's can depend upon the hype,
you know, as it stands right now, that's from not
a match.

Speaker 3 (45:21):
I think that a lot of.

Speaker 5 (45:21):
People are really gonna be willing to pay to see,
especially when you've got you know, if you're forking out
money for a usc pay per view the night before
it's you're gonna have to be really compelled to spend
money again the next night watching WW and that lineup,
I don't think you're that match in particular, not strong
enough to carry the show. So it's a it's one

(45:42):
where you're you're facing up bill battle, and if you
don't do a good job upololding or hyping the events
or getting your stars over as having this big app.

Speaker 4 (45:51):
It's gonna be hard.

Speaker 5 (45:53):
To uh to make this thing fly, especially given all
the circumstances that they're fighting.

Speaker 3 (45:59):
And to kind of add more to to Ian's question
on on the car and I think a lot of
it is that they loaded their top stars into the
Raw versus SmackDown match, and they also they just don't
have a lot of compelling feuds outside of the top
you know, two or three feuds on NWW. Altogether, they

(46:20):
don't have stars. If you put on a pay per view,
you'd say, man, that's really word. They have a pay
per view match, you know, if you put if you
put Cody Rose Andrew McIntyre on pay per view against
the Hard Dynasty. I don't know that that's really a
compelling matchup, you know, And I think it gets to
the fact that they just don't have a lot of
stars that you put on pay per view and you say,

(46:42):
you know what that's really word they have a pay
per view match, you know, I'm really I'm really excited
to see that match on pay per view, and especially
when they when they put fourteen guys in one match.
You really can't do all lot the undercard because your
undercard is just not over. You're not developing marketable star
ours to have pay pervieworthy matchups. And that gets to

(47:04):
a lot of what we're seeing lately, which is that
they don't have an undercard to fill out these pay
per views. They have a couple of matches on top,
they don't have an undercard, and gets to the lack
of stars they're trading. So Ian gets to a really
good point on that aspect of that question.

Speaker 1 (47:19):
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(47:39):
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Speaker 3 (47:52):
We appreciate the call.

Speaker 6 (47:53):
Ian.

Speaker 3 (47:53):
Let's go ahead and go to another phone call from
the seven eighty six EREA code seven eighty six. Welcome
to the show We stitch you name where you're from.
That's Johnny from Data Texas. Johnny, what do you say?

Speaker 7 (48:06):
Not much?

Speaker 3 (48:06):
I mean, I gotta kind of feeling they're gonna have
to stop it.

Speaker 8 (48:09):
There's a paper you pretty much all it is is
a is a way.

Speaker 5 (48:12):
To promote that, uh, that TV that uh that game right.

Speaker 3 (48:16):
Yeah, the video game. Pretty much.

Speaker 4 (48:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 12 (48:19):
I mean that's the only reason that people you've even
around in that.

Speaker 8 (48:22):
But besides that, I wanted to why are they trying
to break up the heart Dinas and the only.

Speaker 2 (48:26):
Actual tag team they actually have by name.

Speaker 3 (48:29):
They break it up for some reason. You do you
have any idea why, Brian? I mean, do you chalk
it up to w W does not like tag teams
and they don't want to pay two guys for one act?

Speaker 4 (48:41):
What?

Speaker 1 (48:41):
What?

Speaker 3 (48:42):
What do you what do you chalk it up to
to why that they're teasing a breakup with Hard Dynasty.

Speaker 4 (48:46):
I think that's.

Speaker 5 (48:47):
Probably the reason why. I mean, I don't I don't
like the idea that they're breaking up the Heart Dynasty
at this point. I think there's you know, obviously there's
a lot of mileage to be had in tag team division,
and that's where you got to start with a group
like this that could run with your tag team and
really you could build your entire division around people to
guys like the Heart Dynasty, they could become big stars

(49:08):
in the tag team division. I think both of those
guys are going to get lost in the shuffle. They
try and make them singles competitors, but it does look
like they're breaking them up, and it does look like
that there's really no reason other than they just don't
want to push tag teams and they just have no
interest in them. You know, in trying to build that
tag team division up, and then there would there was
a prime example of two guys that could have been

(49:30):
great at as a take team.

Speaker 4 (49:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (49:34):
I also wonder if if they don't see a lot
in DH Smith or they see Tyson Kidd being as
stronger character as a heel. We saw a little bit
of a heel tendency from Kid on Raw Monday Night
sort of after their match when they lost. You know,
it's another miscommunication, you know. I don't know if if

(49:54):
they feel like they see more in Kid right now
than Smith, or if it's just a matter if they
want to split them up and for move them to
separate brands. I don't know if that's it or not,
or or if this is sort of a way to
bring back Brett Hart and be the guy who kind
of mends that broken heart excuse a pun between the two,
and kind of mends the tag team because the Italian

(50:16):
is not getting the job done. They've also gonna split
in Italia off as their own separate women's division sort
of act. So I don't know if they're if they're
going to create three separate acts out of that group,
or if Frett Hart comes back to reunite them. But
I see Kid having a lot of upside right now,
and maybe that's kind of where they're thinking is perhaps

(50:37):
right now and we'll kind of see in the weeks
to come, But it does go to a larger point
on w is not a fan of tag team wrestling,
and especially tag teams as a singular act. That's just
that's just not their deal. And this is another example
of that. Uh, Johnny and anything else.

Speaker 4 (50:54):
Real quick in a poll up. Yeah, I want to
say quick, I'm.

Speaker 3 (50:58):
Actually glad they're giving goldness push they are because I mean,
he's looking like a star. I mean, after all these
years he it was actually nice to see it out.

Speaker 4 (51:05):
They're looking like a star.

Speaker 3 (51:06):
Squashington zech Ryder, I mean, kids to see they're actually
getting behind gold Dust.

Speaker 7 (51:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (51:12):
Goldus is an interesting, an interesting story of the year. Uh,
sort of a flying under the radar, UH contender for
one of the top stories of the year, I believe,
which is that the resurgence of a character which was
dead in the water, uh in a wrestler who was
doing absolutely nothing on T and A a couple of
years ago. And and to me, part of it is
that they're trying to promote his book coming out in December,

(51:35):
and that sort of in the back of your mind
you have to keep for why they're promoting gold Dust,
but it's sort of a resurgent story, uh in this year?
And Brian, what do you make of the push they're
giving gold Dust? And is he's someone who could be
you know, where Kane is, where Kine was just sort
of floating around and you know, sort of going from
few to few, not really doing too much important and

(51:57):
then all of a sudden he's in the main program.

Speaker 7 (51:59):
On Some Guy.

Speaker 3 (52:00):
Could they go all the way with gold Dust as
a top character on Roll?

Speaker 13 (52:05):
Well?

Speaker 5 (52:05):
You know it's if you had a Comeback Player of
the Year award, it would go to Dustin.

Speaker 3 (52:09):
Dustin Reynolds.

Speaker 4 (52:12):
Got himself in.

Speaker 5 (52:13):
Shape and he's getting a push because of it. The
book is part of the deal, I think as well
as you know, they want to give that a push
to him because they're helping co promote it and that
it's a lot of a lot of sense. But I
think it's good to see him get a resurgence and
you know, maybe there's somebody else out there that could
benefit from the same type of push that he got.
Or that Kane had got at one point. Some of

(52:36):
these characters that haven't been on TV in a while.
And even if you think a guy like Steve rigal
Or or Fitth Finley, who they've kind of retired, they
can come back and still contribute and because they haven't
been on TV a lot, their their character ends up
being fresh. And gold Dust is definitely benefiting from that.

Speaker 3 (52:53):
Yeah, I agree on that assessment. Definitely.

Speaker 4 (52:57):
It's a.

Speaker 3 (52:59):
It's interesting story this year because I mean, you see Goldust,
you know the act. It's been around for a while,
you don't. It doesn't feel like main event level, but
yet he's over you know, he's over the crowd, and
he's got an interesting storyline going on. He shows some charisma.
Uh ted dB HOSTI isn't exactly a strong heeled character
to work off of, uh, mainly because it hasn't really

(53:22):
done much with Deb's character. They really haven't flushed out
at all. But I like what they've done with Goldest
and that's kind of one of one of the one
of the good stories of the year. I think in wrestling,
good Coach Johnny, we appreciate that. Let's go to some
more phone calls let's go to the five oh three
area code five O three. Welcome to the show. I
please stay to name of where you're from. Brian seven

(53:45):
Morgans say, Brian, Ryan, Oh, hey Ryan, what's going on today?

Speaker 6 (53:52):
Hey?

Speaker 3 (53:53):
When do you see them bring him back?

Speaker 6 (53:54):
Cock eight?

Speaker 14 (53:55):
So we can take on the famous as in that
revenge story line that they that they should.

Speaker 3 (54:02):
Yeah, yeah, you know, Brian, they're kind of promoting a
one time only deal for Triple AH, and I don't
think that's indicative of he's never coming back to TV
and this is your only chance to see him. I
think it's just part of the marketing for that fan
appreciation day on October thirtieth in Connecticut. When do you
think they're going to bring him back? Is it something

(54:22):
that they hold it off into rustle Mania? Have him
come back at the Royal Rumble? Kind of freak out
Seamus h Where where does have to come back? Well?
When does he come back?

Speaker 15 (54:33):
Do you think?

Speaker 5 (54:35):
I think the earliest they would bring him back is
the Royal Rumble. You know, they could either could do
a program with Seamus for the Rumble or do something
where he's getting involved in the Rumble match itself. You know,
kind of a surprise entrant. They've done that last couple
of years, kind of number thirty has been a big surprise,
and you know, that would be a pretty big prop
from the crowd if if Triple h was the last

(54:55):
entrant in the Royal Rumble h, you know, and if
they did that, then from there they could build where
or Tripleas is going after Seamus and first time they
meet it would be at WrestleMania. So there's a couple
of different ways they could go. But you know, you
bring him back too soon, maybe bring him back for
Survivors Series or something like that. That gets a little
bit harder to stretch out that WrestleMania match where he's

(55:17):
trying to before he goes to uh to wrestle Shamus
at WrestleMania. So I would say I would say Royal
Lumbles be the most likely place.

Speaker 3 (55:25):
Yeah, I agree with that. I think that they're they're
close enough to the end of the year where they
can allow this Orton in in Sina and Bretton and
next to the storyline to sort of play out the
rest of the year and then perhaps transition into you know,
Triple WIT's return to the Rumble at the beginning of
the year. Uh, you know, throwing Shamus over the top rope,

(55:48):
Seamus freaks out, uh, and then except the rubber match
at WrestleMania twenty seven and and stretch out a program
for a year amazingly and thinks one hundred being off TV.
But yeah, I'd say, you know, they're probably saving Hunter's
return for the Rumble. There's a lot of potential ways
to save bigger return for the Rumble. They could, you know,

(56:09):
let's say the Undertaker lose is the Bariy Live match
to Kaine, and let's say they want to do Undertaker
versus Kane for the biggest stakes possible, the streak versus
the career at WrestleMania. They could have Undertaker lose this
match at Bragging Rights, disappear from TV, come back to
the Rumble. It's a surprise interest, and you could have
Hunter and Undertaker make surprise returns. That might be overdoing

(56:31):
it a bit, but that's a that's a possibility. So
I agree with you, Brian, save savee Hunter for the
Rumble and then have that third match with Seamus at
WrestleMania twenty seven. Yeah, good call, Ryan, We appreciate that.
Let's go to let's go to two more phone calls
on the show. Let's go to the two one oh
Eric code two and oh welcome to the show. Please

(56:52):
say you name where you're from.

Speaker 15 (56:54):
Hey, guys, this is Cameron in Austin, Texas.

Speaker 3 (56:56):
I'm coming to see a Cameron coming to the Texas.
I always say game and approximately like four hours with
an eleven am start time. Ridiculous, But h.

Speaker 15 (57:06):
We're finally we're back on track, you know, hopefully we
win the rest of these games. Finished up ten super
We'll see.

Speaker 3 (57:12):
We'll see what, We'll see how it goes. Definitely, H
what do you have first said?

Speaker 4 (57:16):
Okay, I was actually.

Speaker 15 (57:18):
Thinking about when Rick Flair first came to t NA
and they kind of put him along with AJ Styles.

Speaker 4 (57:24):
I mean, AJ styles.

Speaker 15 (57:25):
Work is great, but don't you think, uh that would
have the more effective they put him with a guy
like Robert Rude instead.

Speaker 3 (57:32):
If they put Flair with Robert Rude. Yeah, well, I
mean they kind of did in a certain way because
they had Flair associate with with beer Money in a
j after a little while. U. But are you saying
sort of like right off the bat instead of doing
the end of the Flayir Junior effect.

Speaker 15 (57:49):
He was a single guy and he kind of feeled
that same role he did with UH with Triple A
from Rick, Flair was kind of managing him.

Speaker 3 (57:55):
Yeah, that's a good question, Brian, Well what's your what's
your take on that?

Speaker 5 (57:59):
You know, I I like Flair being associated with the
Fortune group and you know, giving a little rub to
Beer Money. And that's the key is you can get
Flair to give a rub to these guys, whether it
be Robert Rut or his Storm or AJ Styles, that's
really the key. You just don't want Flair to overshadow them.
And that's what I think was happening early on with
AJ Styles is Flair was actually dominating all the segments

(58:21):
they were in when he was either talking or just
being in the scene, and Angie actually elevated his game
a little bit, I thought, over time to where he
was not overshadowed by Flair so much, and to the
point now where Flair or AJ is able to carry
a segment a lot better by himself than what he was,
say in January or February when they were just beginning
with Flair. So it didn't really hurt to have Styles

(58:45):
there because it helped to improve him. But now that
you know Flair is right now with beer money, I
think that's a good thing. They need to rub and
they need to elevate their game, just as like Styles did.

Speaker 3 (58:57):
Yeah, I mean, there are definitely mistakes made early on
in the year in terms of how TNA mixed and
match certain incoming stars with established stars in TNA. I
think that for the large part, they have the pieces
in the right place, other than not having babyfaces lined
up to strongly oppose Fortune and we talked about that

(59:19):
a lot on today's show. Other than that, I think
they have the play the pieces in the right places
for the most part, and they have kind of corrected that,
which was you know, Aja presented at Aja Junior. I mean,
I'm sorry, it's Flair Junior, which was a mistake early
on this year. So they've learned from that mistake, I believe,
but it definitely hindsight, being twenty twenty, probably wasn't the
right approach in utilizing the Flayer early on. Cameron, appreciate

(59:44):
the call, Brian. Before we get to our final phone
call today, go ahead and give us a plug for
the nostalgia features that you have on the VIP portion
of P two B torch dot com with the podcasts
and in this week's Torch newsletter. Of course, if you're
not at towards VPIL member, you can go to P
tob torch dot com slash go VIP. Some of the

(01:00:05):
features this week an exclusive interview with Ringing Winter Russ
or Christopher Daniels that I conducted for about half an hour,
so very newsworthy topics discussed. So if you're a VIP
member you can access that audio interview right now. And
we'll also of course have the pay per view audio
roundtable following Bragging Rights this Sunday, probably myself, likely myself

(01:00:27):
or wait tailer will be hosting that one with Bruce
Mitchell and Pat McNeil on Sunday night. Brian, go ahead
and plug what you have in the VIP audio section
in this week's newsletter with your nostalgia features this week.

Speaker 5 (01:00:41):
Well, in the Nostyletic column, I taught a lot about
the roundtable discussion that was held on Classics on Demand
where they talked about families, and then George Shire and
I discussed wrestling families and this roundtable, so we go
into depth talking about that. We had some other news
to discuss, including we talked about the Pavoc Museum again,

(01:01:03):
we talked about the health of Tommy Gilbert as well
as updates on Mister Wrestling to Johnny Walker. So we
had a pretty full discussion with wrestling nostalgia. Usually we
try and relive some of the glory days of wrestling,
talking about wrestling history, going through match by match in

(01:01:23):
nineteen sixty three, and we didn't get to it this
week as we had so much other things to talk about.
So check that out that we record that each and
every week.

Speaker 3 (01:01:32):
Very good and again that's towards VIP audio section at
if you're not a VIP member P two B torch
dot com slash go VIP. Let's go to our final
phone call today. This is from the four four area
code four oh four. Welcome to the show. Please see
your name of where you're from. Hey guys, this is
Elliott from Atlanta. Elliott, what's going on today? One? I'm

(01:01:56):
in favor of that gold Duff push. Thanks getting right now?

Speaker 4 (01:01:59):
Thank you?

Speaker 6 (01:02:00):
It and an excellent shape.

Speaker 3 (01:02:02):
And do you think there's money in a gold dust
versus Cody Roads?

Speaker 6 (01:02:06):
You with his whole dashing gimmick going.

Speaker 14 (01:02:09):
On because it's ninety seconds.

Speaker 6 (01:02:12):
Gold Dust kind of does our look.

Speaker 3 (01:02:14):
Yeah, I definitely think so. Brian, what's your take on
a potential gold Dust Cody Roads view down the line?

Speaker 5 (01:02:20):
Oh, I definitely think so. I think there's a lot
of a lot of places they could go with a
feud like that. You know, they could do the talk
about I think you said fashion collar, you know, talking
about their looks, where Cody's doing this grooming gimmick.

Speaker 3 (01:02:32):
And gold Dust has a bizarre look.

Speaker 5 (01:02:33):
They can also, uh you know, do a revelation where
they're they're brothers in real life, I mean though everybody
knows it, and build off something un versus brother feud.

Speaker 3 (01:02:44):
Yeah, I think even involving Dusty Roads again, that could
have a little bit of a little something to that
and make it more intriguing. I think there's definitely something
in that down the road.

Speaker 7 (01:02:52):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (01:02:52):
I hear your final question of the of the day.
The other one was that HQ no now the final
to ross remembers for the new WWE game, and thought
one of them was interesting. Rob van Den as a
legend and I just wanted to take on that. Yeah,
you know, I think it's There's a couple of things there.
One is that you know, he was part of WW

(01:03:14):
and Sophie. He's a legend, I guess in their view
with their dwindling list of available legends that put in
the video game, and they don't fear TNA. You know,
it's not a matter of drawing attention to TNA and
him being a top star for them right now. I
think it's just a matter of he was part of
our history, and our history is all that matters in
our mind, so it will be natural to include RBDS.
So good call, Elliott. We appreciate that. Thanks everyone for

(01:03:36):
listening to the live cast today. Join us again on Monday.

Speaker 16 (01:03:43):
Searching for more great pro wrestling talk, Then join me
Jason Powell host him the three weekly Pro Wrestling Boom Podcast.
Each week he'll hear the latest news and analysis for
me and my team at Pro Wrestling dot need along
with other pro wrestling media members. Plus, the Pro Wrestling
Boom Podcast features long form interviews with notable names in
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(01:04:04):
and all your favorite secondary apps, or visit us directly
at pw boom dot com. Once again, that's pw boom
dot com.

Speaker 7 (01:04:30):
Thank you for using blog talk radio. Goodbye.

Speaker 3 (01:04:34):
All right, Brian, we're out in the after show a
portion of the show. I'll get your quick thoughts on
that last topic that Elliott brought up with RBD be
included in ww's next video game and anyway, I mean,
do you kind of read into that or do you
think it's just a matter. It's their history and he's
part of their history and they don't really look outside
of their own history for anything being relevant in wrestling.

Speaker 5 (01:04:57):
Yeah, I think they're looking at a dollar science. I
think r VD being in one of their video games
can help sell. You know, he's not on their current roster,
so he wouldn't be in that's part of the video game.
But from the standpoint, he could be included as a
legend because he did wrestle there, so you know, LARVD
was pretty popular when he was in WWE. And I'm
sure that's what they're looking at, is just just the

(01:05:19):
dollar signs of it right now, not figuring anything else
in They don't care if he's in TNA because he's
pretty much under the radar, just like TNA product is
at this point.

Speaker 3 (01:05:29):
Yeah, great point. If they believe he can help sell
that that that video game, then they're gonna use him.
And obviously he's far their history, so it doesn't I mean,
just because he's in TNA doesn't mean he's off limits,
uh to use his lightness and in their video game. Uh,
you know, then that's it looks you know, it looks
interesting on the outside because they're drawing attention to someone

(01:05:50):
who's in TNA, but from their perspective, they don't acknowledge TNA,
so it's not really promoting anything TNA related. So Brott,
we'll cover a couple of subjects in the news and
then we'll get to a twenty years ago flashback, a
really interesting one that we'll talk about today. First, first topic,

(01:06:10):
bragging rights in your predictions for the pay per view.
We'll kind of focus on the top three matches of
Sunday Night's pay per view, and I'll kind of compare
with what you and Greign have to say as Greg
and I talked about predictions and let yesterday's live cast.
So I'll get your predictions and we'll start off with
Randy Orton versus Wade Barrett. How do you see that

(01:06:31):
match playing out? How does John Cena get involved and
who is your champion? Coming out of Sunday Night's pay
per view.

Speaker 5 (01:06:38):
You know they really wanted to open up the direction.
I think they could if they really wanted to open
different storyline direction. I think you go with Wade Barrett
as a champion in here because you do have an
intriguing storyline with is Sena gonna get involved? And if
he does, what happens to the match and then what
happens to Sena afterwards? So I mean there's a lot
of different ways they could go making Barrett the champion

(01:07:00):
really give a push to his character, and you know
Randy Orton is gonna do what probably be about the
same level of popularity where he has the belt or
doesn't have the belt. But if you elevate Wade Barrett,
if you're gonna go all the way with him, that
would be a great time to do it. I think
he's like thirty four years old, so he's old enough
where you don't have a lot of years to try

(01:07:20):
him out. You want to get him in the mix
in here. This is a good spot for it to
do it, So I would I would go ahead and
pull the trigger on that somehow he walks out of
the of the match with the title, and that should
open a bunch of new fresh storylines.

Speaker 4 (01:07:36):
Yeah, I mean, it.

Speaker 3 (01:07:37):
Would be a very fascinating It would be very very
fascinating twist to have Barrett win that title. I think,
you know, they put the belts on Randy Orton a
couple of months ago, thinking that he was a guy
to sort of carry the brand this fall, shortly the
face of w this fall. It just hasn't worked out.
I think Orton's character has been presented very strongly. So

(01:08:00):
if you won the belt, there wasn't a sense of
a quest for the title. There wasn't a lot of
momentum behind him actually winning the title. There was a
momentum behind the character, but I don't think behind him
actually winning the title. And that's a huge difference in
terms of, you know, the bills to get there and
then whether people want to see you after you get there,
and so I don't think that was in place, and

(01:08:21):
I would I would almost be in pavy what you're saying, Brian,
which is to just go ahead and and pull the
trigger on on Bear's champion and shift toward you know,
John Cena perhaps being in the title picture and him
sort of finding a way to be in that title
picture and what kind of scenarios you're gonna set up
with with that. I just don't think that Orton and
Barrett have hero chemistry as as feuding babyfaces and heels.

(01:08:46):
I just don't get the sense there's any chemistry there.
So I think the money the Money program right now
has Barred and Sina and how they interact, and you know,
Barrett with the title, that's a pretty big story to
the follow if you were to achieved championship status. So
of course that goes against what we're talking about a lot,
which is that we'd like to see someone holds that

(01:09:06):
belt for a long time, you know, has some sort
of lengthy title reign somewhere along the you know, down
the road. But I don't know that Orton is champion
is a solution based on the lack of hype or
the lack of a chase or a quest for that
title that he holds right now.

Speaker 5 (01:09:24):
Yeah, I would agree with you, you know, I'd love
to see somebody hold the belot, but maybe, you know,
maybe it's way Barrett that holds it till WrestleMania time
frame or sometime at least into the early winter months.
You know, something like that, maybe Wade Barrett's a better
choice than Randy Orton right now to hold develop. Orton's
had the belt several times. None of them have been
lengthy runs. But you know right now that the product
isn't on fire either.

Speaker 3 (01:09:47):
Cain versus the Undertaker bear to live for the word
heavyweight title sort of weird to have a world title
contested in a match where you win by shoveling dirt
on your opponent. I don't know, it just doesn't seem
world title worthy. But I kind of talk a little
bit about this during the live cast. What's your prediction
for how this match played out?

Speaker 5 (01:10:08):
Well, I would imagine we're gonna have you know, we
had the gimmick finish last time, with Paul Barret turning
on the Undertaker Undertaker losing. It would make sense again
that somehow Undertaker comes out on the short end of
this you know where where this few can continue yet
for another month. It really doesn't make any sense at
all to put the the title on the Undertaker at
this point in time. He's having a real difficult time

(01:10:30):
moving or working a match. It's it's something that if
you put it on him, you're gonna have to take
it back off and here pretty quickly. So I would
think you're gonna go with with some sort of a
gimmick finish again where the Undertaker doesn't lose by pinfall,
he can lose in this buried to Live match and
come back, maybe a Survivor series for his final final

(01:10:51):
revenge over Kaine, something something that kind.

Speaker 3 (01:10:55):
Of caught my interest. I'm not really sure in a
people will spend money to see this match interest, but
just sort of a well, it's in a unique matchup
in twenty ten, Kevin Nash kind of tossing out the
idea of him facing the Undertaker that he didn't really
toss it up, but the kind of talk about it
hypothetically at Wrestlemating in twenty seven with the backstory that

(01:11:17):
you know, Undertaker ended Sean Michaels' career, Nash and Michaels
have a strong connection sort of that would be the
backswere for that matchup. Again, I don't know that that
would sell in twenty ten, and they would really really
have to put a lot of emphasis on Nash is
a credible threat because I don't know that anybody would
really buy into Nash being the one to end the streak,

(01:11:39):
so they would have to do a lot of TV
work to make Nash seem like a really credible threat.
What do you think about that matchup? Is that something
that you think could happen? And do you think that
anybody would be interested in seeing that matchup? I don't worry.

Speaker 17 (01:11:53):
I don't know.

Speaker 5 (01:11:54):
I don't think anybody's gonna be real interested in seeing
Undertaker and Kevin Nash anymore. You know, they so that
I can't remember which WrestleMania was, but it wasn't real
good back then. Eleven maybe yeah, something like that, and
and based off of their injuries, their ages, I just
can't see him be very effective's right now. I just

(01:12:14):
would think that would have very almost zero drawing interest
and as a match work wise, it would it would
be one of the one of the more poor main events.
I think that the Undertakers had, especially coming off of
where he's worked with Seawn Michaels the last couple of
years and has done really well as far as WrestleMania
put it on good matches. He worked with the Tista

(01:12:35):
before that and Edge and and those have all been
good as well.

Speaker 6 (01:12:39):
UH.

Speaker 3 (01:12:39):
The final match at Bragen Rice we'll talk about is
the Team Robbers Team SmackDown seven on seven, UH SmackDown
sort of with the more loaded lineup and also the
decks stacked in their favor, UH based on the way
he's members in on TV, which which seems to indicate
that 'rall is gonna win this. But what's your take
on who wins and maybe who comes down to from

(01:13:01):
each side? What sort of the main storyline is is that,
you know what, let's focus on miss, let's focus on
big show. Where is the focus of this match going
to be? Do you think, well, I think it's.

Speaker 5 (01:13:14):
Gonna come down to the Miss. I think they're they're
gonna start pushing him a little bit harder from going
forward to here. You know, they they they've had this
this feud where he was was wrestling, and they're starting
to channel out of that feud with namely with Brian Danielson.

Speaker 4 (01:13:30):
I guess when I'm.

Speaker 5 (01:13:30):
Referring to he's been had that feud. They kind of
blew it off already. So it's the next step from
his and his natural progression as a as a wrestler
and a guy on the mic. So I really look
for him to take a pretty prominent role in this event.
And I think they really have missed the mark here.
You know, they they swapped Edge for seam Punk.

Speaker 4 (01:13:50):
I think they what is.

Speaker 5 (01:13:51):
There to gain out of this breaking rights pay per
view event? If they would have had the draft pick,
I think that would have been something at least they
could be wrestling for and you'd do probably a decent
TV rating on Monday because you'd be looking at who
won the match and who are they going to pick
for their draft picks. So I think they really, you know,
kind of missed the mark there.

Speaker 3 (01:14:13):
Yeah, I agree with you that there isn't really anything
at stake, you know, and that's sort of been the
problem with all these these gimmick matches that they put together.
You know, the well, we have this taper view coming
up on the on the schedule, so we have to
create a match where we artificially create something on the line.
I just I just don't do that sells. And this
idea of an artificial feud between Ron and SmackDown over

(01:14:37):
a many Stanley Cup that doesn't sell. And so it's unfortunate.

Speaker 5 (01:14:43):
Yeah, you know, you had so many guys on Monday
night from SmackDown, wrestling on Raw, and then if you
watch SmackDown tonight, you've get all kinds of Raw guys
coming over and and wrestling on SmackDown. So you know,
what's what's the point of paying fifty dollars to watch
the same guys wrestle if you could just see it
a pre TV.

Speaker 3 (01:15:01):
Yep, there you go.

Speaker 1 (01:15:05):
Anytime you're watching WWE Raw or SmackDown or AEW Dynamite
in particular, send us an email if you've got thoughts
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(01:15:27):
that same email applies Wadekeller Podcast at pwtorch dot com.
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Speaker 3 (01:15:44):
Let's go and talk about one of the topic before
the twenty years ago flashback obviously, what one of the
big stories of the week has been ww's stand Up
for WV campaign and the YouTube videos and the promotional
efforts on their website and on television this week. A
lot of linet Man coverage in the news this week.

(01:16:07):
What's kind of your your overall reaction to I guess
these final weeks of build up toward lininet Man's election
day against Richard Bloomenthal on November second, And how do
you evaluate this week for WW with this campaign and
all the news coverage of Linda and her campaign this week.

Speaker 5 (01:16:26):
Dellel From what I've heard or read here this week,
it doesn't sound good for Linda. You know, she's dropping
in the polls at a time where she really needs
to be narrowing the gap. I think I did read
somewhere that one of the guys that has predicted so
many of the races anytime you get kind of rule
of thumb is if you get over fifty percent of
the approval rating in the polls going into the event,

(01:16:47):
the chances are very very high you're going to end
up winning. And Bloomenthal's over well over fifty and Linda's behind,
but it just doesn't look good for her, even if
they make, you know, a last couple weeks heavy campaigning
here for for her. It's a lot of ground to
be making up in a short period of time.

Speaker 3 (01:17:04):
Yeah, I don't think it looks good for her right now.
You know, they're trying various ways to try to sort
of this credit Bloomenthal. That's kind of what they're I
don't know if it's their last resort, but it is
certainly one of their final strategies to go up against Bloomenthal.
So I don't know that it's going to work, but

(01:17:26):
we'll see. Stranger things have happened. Brian. Let's talk about
our final topic today, the twenty years ago flashback. This
is from October twenty fifth, nineteen ninety cover story on
WWF signing a promotional. I guess it's a television special
deal with Fox. The a couple of promotions kind of

(01:17:48):
shutting down, as wake Keller wrote about in one of
his columns in that twenty years ago flashback, also the
latest installment of The Torch Talk with Cactus Jack mcs foley.
Some very fascinating quotes from mcfoley twenty years ago talking
about his future and wrestling. What kind of jumps out

(01:18:09):
at you from this twenty years ago flashback and some
of the top stories of that of that time period.

Speaker 5 (01:18:16):
Yeah, I think, you know, really for fans that haven't
taken advantage of looking at these VIP back issues, it's
really fun to go back and look twenty years ago
at what was going on in wrestling, and you know,
to read about a guy like Cactus Check in an
early career interview was really fascinating and just tremendous reading.
And before we get into that, James, I wanted to
see if you caught the TAZ reference last night. He

(01:18:38):
mentioned Mickey James's boots something that was similar to John
Nord would wear. That was a nostalgia reference right there
during his impact.

Speaker 3 (01:18:46):
I didn't catch that reference. But that's actually really good.

Speaker 5 (01:18:49):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, I really read through that
and the Cactus Jack was a great interview. The part
about w B signing with to present some primetime specials
of ratings for at that time anyway, the ratings for
Saturday Nights many event had been dropping quite a bit
and Fox was trying to get into the market. This

(01:19:11):
was pre NFL days pre NASCAR days, pre Baseball days,
they didn't have very much programming on that network. Basically
all they had was, you know, a couple of TV
shows out of Melrose Place or nine on two to zero,
and so they were desperate trying to get mainstream programming
and that's why they went.

Speaker 4 (01:19:26):
With WWE.

Speaker 5 (01:19:28):
At that time. Also, I read through some of the
results and who was wrestling who, and I thought it
was interesting that Jerry Lawler in the USWA was defending
the USWA title against the wrestler named Mark Kallis, who
we talked about earlier Understaker. Yeah, so he was wrestling
twenty years ago, but pre his WWF days of course.

(01:19:51):
And then also in that story, they waited reported that
Barry Windham had left WCW and may not be wrestling
for the company for some time, and of course he
would come back as a as part of the Four
Horsemen at Halloween Havocs just in a couple of weeks later.
So pretty pretty interesting newsletter to read. I thought it

(01:20:14):
was a lot of good stuff you can get out
of there from a nostalgic standpoint.

Speaker 3 (01:20:19):
And also there's a lot of some good cards that
were reported in the Torch twenty years ago you mentioned
that one I'll go ahead and run down the the
WWF card. This is promoted in Minneapolis in October twentieth,
nineteen nineties, so almost exactly twenty years ago your main event.

(01:20:40):
Let's look get at the l D versus The Ultimate
see l D and the Ultimate Warrior over Team Demolition
in an elimination match. Sounds familiar. Elimination style is obviously
promoting Survivor series. You also Jimmy stook up opinion the
Black Scorpion actually the Black Demon wait even kind of
wrote it that way. You had the Bushwhackers over Mister

(01:21:04):
Fuji and Pat Tanaka. You also had Packsaw Jim Duggan
losing to earthquake with Jimmy Hart involved. So a great
night of wrestling in in Minneapolis twenty years ago. What
kind of jumps out? And also on the undercard also
the Battlecat over Pistol Piz Wattley and Paul Diamond penned

(01:21:25):
Jim Powers in your opening match in eight minutes, So, Brian,
what kind of jumps at you from from those those
matches on the lineup, you know, not a.

Speaker 5 (01:21:35):
Not a great lineup, but did did it have the
attendance listed their James, because I can't imagine that was
a great drawing line up there by any any stretch
of imagination in Minneapolis at that time.

Speaker 3 (01:21:46):
Wave reported sixty seventy five hundred. I believe it was
it's the first card ever at the Target Center because
they just opened the Target Center in downtown Minneapolis. So
I don't know. Maybe that that helped boost attendance. They're
the alley like like a WAVE report, but there was
no Hogan, no Van Eric, no no Kurt Henning, and
what even said a lot of fans curious to see

(01:22:08):
the new Target Center. Perhaps artificial inflation by running a
new building, maybe that would not Maybe that's what helped,
uh yeah, go ahead it Yeah, it sounds like.

Speaker 5 (01:22:18):
That because the lineup wasn't very good. You mentioned no Hogan,
no Kurt Henny. And when WW used to come back
and want to run big events at the Mets Center
or the Saint Paul Civic Center when they were taking
over and competing with the aw A, that those were
guys that were mainstays on the card. Hogan, who wrestled
in a w A and was very popular there, Kurt Henny,

(01:22:38):
you know guys like the Road Warriors would come back
and wrestle on the cards too, because those are such
big names from the AWA days that they were taking,
you know, the fans from the AWA and turning them
into WW fans.

Speaker 3 (01:22:53):
And also there's also in and they also promoted the
car to at Madison Square Garden twenty years ago on
October nine, nineteenth, two thousand. I guess this is probably
the well, I don't know, maybe I don't know which
one is the A or the B Tour. Obviously with
no hope hoping it wasn't on either card, so we'll
just say that this is the A card or the

(01:23:13):
the eighth the A Crew. Your may even here was
Texas Tornado, that being Van Eric but mister perfect At
being curheating to a what was described as a horrible
double countout in your main event. You also had the
Heart Foundation against Rhythm and Blues in your semi main
event Tugboat Verso Bravo, Ted Deviassi against Dusty Rhodes, Davy

(01:23:35):
Boys Smith versus Hakku. Shane Douglas had a match twenty
years ago at MSG beat the Brooklyn Brawler that was
your second match on the card. You also had the
Warlord pinning Coco be Ware and your opening match Iron
Mike Sharp defeated S. D. Jones and they drew about
fifty five hundred at MSG. So what kind of jumps

(01:23:58):
out of you from that card?

Speaker 5 (01:24:00):
Another lackluster card? I think that it was in the
previous issue that we talked about James where they were
running ABC type shows and they had they had actually
cut a bunch of the wrestlers and eliminated the C shows,
and so we're basically stuck with A and B shows
and you know you can tell those this roster is
fairly thin as far as as talent and the guys

(01:24:21):
that can carry a card. You know, you've got Kurt
Henning and Carrie Van Eric would probably would be good
for a B level show main event that's probably over
the Intercontinental title, but you know, you really needed names
like Savage and Hogan, those big names if you're going
to sell out Madison Square Garden or even the place
like Minneapolis, where you know, those guys would be definitely

(01:24:43):
the main event status.

Speaker 3 (01:24:46):
Yeah, and that twenty years ago issue is pretty fascinating
with a lot of news coverage of some promotions going
out of business and like Brian, like you talked about
some of the cards and look at if you don't
have top stars, how difficult it came me to draw
U And that same issue, it talks about a w
SOB promort to the card and they drew fifteen hundred
people in nineteen nineties, So it wasn't a good It

(01:25:09):
wasn't a good time for promoting wrestling cards at the
on the live event circuit back then, almost similar to today.
If you don't have John Cena on headlighting your your
arena shows, you're not gonna draw, I mean, or even
rain of Seiou because he helped boost Smackdowns drawing power
earlier this year when he was on a lot of

(01:25:30):
tours when he probably needed some time off. So if
you don't have John Cena, if you don't have the Undertaker,
if you don't have Raymond Seio, it's kind of hard
to draw without those top stars. And we've seen that
last two weekends with ww really struggling to draw with
some of these raw tours without John Cena. So good point, Debrian, Yeah,

(01:25:51):
I think that that about does it for for that
big back issue reflection. Pretty good issue to kind of
look through and uh, and download the PDF and and
through it in the of course, in the VIP section
of the Torch website. And if you're listening to us,
obviously you're a Torch VIP member and you can access
that right now and follow along with us as as

(01:26:11):
we have talked about that issue. So, Brian, great to
talk to you again on a Friday, and I hope
you have a great weekend. Any final thoughts before we
wrap up?

Speaker 5 (01:26:20):
Yeah, I wish you'd have a good Friday.

Speaker 4 (01:26:21):
Good and you're going for Texas.

Speaker 5 (01:26:23):
I assume that Iowa State.

Speaker 3 (01:26:25):
Yes, I would be going for Protectives. Otherwise it's gonna
be a rough week if we don't win any game.

Speaker 5 (01:26:29):
But yeah, CAMD in Iowa State, you're in big trouble.

Speaker 3 (01:26:31):
I think, Yeah, doubly rough. So I mean, I see
it's a halfway decent team.

Speaker 6 (01:26:38):
They've just had some bad.

Speaker 3 (01:26:39):
Losses and we don't. We're not supposed to lose at home.
I mean, it looks horrible when we lose at home
to UCLA and then UCLA gets beat by like fifty
points to Oregon last night, so that doesn't look good
on us. Well, it's again thanks again to Brian for
joining me today. Everyone have a great weekend and we
appreciate your support and standing up for p tow B

(01:27:00):
Torch VIP and the Torch VIP audioce section. This is
Torch is editor James Caldwell. Sign it off.

Speaker 18 (01:27:13):
I'm Kelly Wells, host of the seven Star podcast, the
new ongoing Torch show covering the world of New Japan
pro wrestling. We'll drop new episodes as major shows and
noteworthy events dictate and I'm.

Speaker 16 (01:27:26):
Chris Lansdell join us as we cover the ever changing
landscape of New Japan as they navigate an era with
no lack of talent but a real need to.

Speaker 4 (01:27:34):
Create some new styles.

Speaker 19 (01:27:35):
You can stream the new seven Stop podcast now from
Pro Wrestling Talk.

Speaker 3 (01:28:00):
Welcome to the PW Torch Live Chatz.

Speaker 6 (01:28:03):
I am host Wade Keller, editor and publisher of the
Pro Wrestling Torch Newsletter and PW Torch dot Com. Joined
today as usual on Mondays by Bruce Mitchell, senior columnist
for twenty plus years with a Pro Wrestling Torch Newsletter
and PW torch dot Com.

Speaker 3 (01:28:19):
How you doing, Bruce, I am tired twenty years. I'm
tired more than twenty years.

Speaker 6 (01:28:24):
Yeah, yeah you should. It's been a lot of work,
a lot of uh, lot of lot of long nights.
All right, Well, anyway, let's uh, I got the chat
room open. So if you're waiting for me to do that,
since I'm usually late with it, no, I was actually
early with it. So go ahead and jump on in
the chat room. We got one hour to go before
Raw and Uh. Well, Bruce are coming off three point

(01:28:46):
zero plus ratings week last week, rebounding after a couple
of weeks below three point zero.

Speaker 3 (01:28:53):
What do you think the.

Speaker 6 (01:28:53):
Interest level is going to be in terms of popping
a rating after last night's pay per view that probably
very few people saw.

Speaker 4 (01:29:00):
I suspect it's going to be about what they did
last week. I don't think there's going to be a
mom or intrigue coming out of either coming out of
this pay per view. I don't think there was a
lot of interest going into this pay per view, despite
you know, even with all that competition. Maybe you know
the idea of maybe people didn't watch the pay per
view because they might have watched something else like rock.

Speaker 6 (01:29:19):
Leslie gets ask hits.

Speaker 4 (01:29:21):
You know, they'd be interested in what had happened. I
don't know. I don't think the entry coming into this
was all about hot So I just I suspect they
just continue along a pace.

Speaker 6 (01:29:29):
Yeah, I'm kind of with you. I don't I'm not
even sure. Actually it was on Monday night football the night.

Speaker 4 (01:29:35):
So no Johnson Cowboys and that's that's what marketing.

Speaker 6 (01:29:37):
Yeah, that's okay. That Yeah, that's big enough. So I
actually think they they're at real at risk going under
three point zero based on that. Yeah, I just I
don't think there's a lot of people super curious what
happened between Randy Orton and Wade Barrett. And I don't
think last week's show, you know, is anything that had
like a huge hook that's going to make people tune in.
So I could see another ratings drop this week. We're
gonna get the calls in a moment. We got three

(01:29:59):
people on hold, so you can call right now and
be fourth in line and we'll get see in just
a few minutes. The number to call is six four, six,
seven to one ninety eight twenty eight. That's six four,
six seven to one, nine eight two eight. Bruce your
thoughts on Breaking Rights last night? I know you changed
Callbell and Pat McNeil did an hour long roundtable discussion

(01:30:20):
of that for PW Torch VIP members that was available
last night. But give us your kind of abbreviated summary
of whether this is a show that if people haven't
seen it yet, there's a reason to watch the replay
and and you know, how do you think it fits
into the pay per vy landscape for WWE for those
who did buy it.

Speaker 4 (01:30:36):
I think it's going to I mean, I can't imagine
anybody wanting to get this on the replay or needing
to sive this, you know, I think they took they
took something of a chance with a storyline, a storyline
finished to that, to that that main event that really
wasn't much of a finish, and they didn't allow the
job of giving another I thought the commentary on the
show was just awful and they really needed strong commentaries

(01:31:00):
in to explain that that John seen I really had
how fought and outwitted, outwitted way there and Nexus, and
he'd gotten to beat up Nexus, and he'd gotten to
you know, attitude of just wait there without you know,
without getting fired, and it's still following what they're going
to do, because you know, they really I mean that

(01:31:21):
just that just really wasn't there. It just was It
wasn't a very good show. It wasn't enough that Brian
Daniels had a good I mean, dannn Pyne had a
good match at the beginning of the show, and then
what it was good, but it wasn't something that you
had to see and you had to spend forty five
dollars to three. I just thought this was just really
skippfull and really kind of a flash.

Speaker 3 (01:31:39):
Show all the way around.

Speaker 6 (01:31:40):
What what about the decision to end the match the
way they did between Barrett and Randy Orton? Is that
a way that you can get away with once every
two three years. I mean the crowd reaction was sort of, oh,
stand up and applied kind of tepidly for Randy Orton.
But I mean it's it's quite a weird way to
end a show when you're paying for it.

Speaker 4 (01:32:00):
Yeah, And I think that's the crowd's not gonna get
into that or understand it, particularly when you've not put
heat or on the idea that John Cena is working,
you know, kind of a kind of undercover to undermine
undermine nexus, and you just put all that, you know,
I let's feel sorry for him and he's really stuck
and he doesn't have any choice. You haven't put any
you haven't given that hit of that he's up to

(01:32:21):
something and people are looking for it. And so what
they saw was a beat you out of nowhere that
looked really clumsy. And the whole the whole thing that
they were booking was it. You had to really set
it up and it really had to be strong. I honestly,
I just did that up and down commentary the whole show,
where Michael Cole in particular was just switching from heel

(01:32:41):
to face and laughing at baby faces and cheering heels
for cheating and all that. When it came time to
really put over the John Cena that John Cena had
outsmarted Nexus, he didn't have the way look all to
do it. It's sort of like you can kind of
you almost like you could hear hear a visit man
on the headset telling him what to say. All of
a sudden he starts saying, and it just it really

(01:33:02):
was something to happen subtle. Had we really built up,
had we built up rights and Perduccians and everything they did,
and it just wasn't there. I mean, it just kind
of the idea was okay, but I think that's an
idea you did for television, then you don't do it
for pay for you and people in the arena. I
don't know how they're special to state that out.

Speaker 6 (01:33:18):
I know, yeah, And I mean, is there an alternate
finish to this match? Do you think that when they
book this match, this is a finish they wanted to
do it because it's just they I think they're smart
enough to know you're hurting your pay per view business
when you don't do a clean finish. Or do you
not even think that's a mentality within WWE? Do you
think they don't think of themselves as as in the
business of delivering clean finishes and they think telling a

(01:33:40):
story at the end with the dynamic was seen again
his heat back on Nexus afterwards and Orton standing by
and watching and you know the tension between then dissipating
a little bit. Is that in that in their mind?
Is that a satisfying finish for wwefens?

Speaker 4 (01:33:54):
I don't know. I mean, if you really have built
the intrigue of when's he gonna pop? You know, when's
he gonna once? He's going to pop? Waight beat? When
Johnsena's gonna punch him, and that John Cena was cleverly
working against him and really pulled something off that night.
Then maybe maybe you could have had something that they
didn't do a good job of that, and it just
didn't It didn't seem like they really knew that. I mean,

(01:34:16):
it had to be really tightly plodded and tightly done,
and it just wasn't. And and the rest of the
show had a lot of the other thing was the
wrestles shows kind of jumped up with a lot of
expository storyline craft that really didn't help much of anything.
And he got in the way of you know, this
thing was really about one match in the end, and

(01:34:36):
it just kind of gotten away of that. And like
I said, the commentary was just awful strike. I mean,
all those idio secrecies of the bad side of all
three of them was out there. Lalla was disgusted because
I think he knows that, you know, I think with
all everything that he's done in wrestling and all the
all the promos and the commentary and everything, he knows
how that works. And he can't believe. You can just

(01:34:57):
hear him sometimes he can't believe some of the things
the coles saying it's not because he's so shocked, it's
so outrageous. It's just so it's so counterproductive. And then Striker, Striker,
but he was really annoying. And then and then and
then Cole I talked about a lot, but Cole going
back and forth and not putting heat on things that
happened in the ring that that should be heat on,

(01:35:17):
and just going oh, this is great, and then switching
over and you know, Rooty for undertaker for a while.

Speaker 15 (01:35:21):
And uh, it's terrible.

Speaker 4 (01:35:23):
I mean it's just and you know, his his first
job is to sell, is to sell what the stories
are and to sell the stars. It's not to be
clever to get himself over, and it's not to say
clever wise and make you laugh.

Speaker 6 (01:35:36):
Yeah, I mean that's great if you can yep. All right,
Well let's uh, let's go to phone calls and begin
with area code three four seven. I please say your
name and where you're from.

Speaker 2 (01:35:51):
Huh, well, well my name is Deans are Brooklyn, New York,
and I would like to talk about Michael ben Why.
I think I think from after hearing what he did today,
I think the guy has a lot of nerve actually,
because his son was in del w for six years
and he would have fifteen years wrestled before that, So
you're talking about fifteen years prior of drug use, steroid us,

(01:36:14):
hitting his head against tables, chairs, whatever, And in fact,
his father encourages his son to become a wrestler back
in ninet eighty five. So my theory is he has
a lot of nerve blamingd B for what happened with
his son, especially since that CTE theory is just a
theory that can't improve in the court of law. And
to me, I just think he has a lot of
nerve blaming the McMahon's for what his son did.

Speaker 6 (01:36:38):
Yeah, well, Bruce, what do you think?

Speaker 4 (01:36:41):
So what you're saying is that really Vince McMahon is
the victims here and Lind McMahon they are the victims here,
Chris Benlaw.

Speaker 2 (01:36:51):
You know I'm saying they're not the victims. But I'm
just saying Vincent man has a right to descend his
company against the stumbbag coming on and blaming him for
his stupid son committing a murder. I mean, how do
you know the Christic.

Speaker 4 (01:37:02):
Michael Denwah is a scumbag. Michael Denwah is the one
who who who you know kaid wrestlers to paid Russell's
to look away. He set the stage for all that.
Michael Denlaw is the father of a son who committed
suicide and and killed his family.

Speaker 6 (01:37:20):
How was he a stone?

Speaker 4 (01:37:22):
I mean, I mean the billionaire is the victim seriously,
I mean millionaire victim who set the stage for Yeah,
I mean were you around when this happened? How are you?

Speaker 3 (01:37:32):
Were you around when this happened?

Speaker 13 (01:37:33):
Do you know?

Speaker 4 (01:37:33):
Do you know the history of the business and the
history of what visa Man and w ws have done
and all the things that led up to what happens
Chris Benslaw and that the damage that was done and
the damage that was done to that was shown in
his brain and the stress that he was under and
all that. Michael Denlaw is has has a right to

(01:37:54):
just like this a man. No one's saying that this
a man doesn't have a right to descendants though that
I'm aware of. Michael Benwah has a propect ride to
make his criticism. He's you can agree with her, disagree
with him, but he's he's got an educated, educated case
to make.

Speaker 17 (01:38:10):
And he is.

Speaker 4 (01:38:11):
He has learned the history of it, of that company,
He's learned the history of his son. And yeah, he
encouraged his son to follow his dream, but he had
no idea that what the dream for, what the what
the dream for his son would protect with entail? So
you know, I don't know, but I'm telling you, I'm
really shocked.

Speaker 3 (01:38:28):
That he's somebody say that MICHAELA is a scumback I.

Speaker 6 (01:38:35):
Name your name because I didn't shot it down and
I want to be able to call you.

Speaker 7 (01:38:37):
I dinn know.

Speaker 2 (01:38:38):
I'm sorry. I didn't need to say that christ I
meant to say Chrispin.

Speaker 4 (01:38:42):
Why not Michael Ben?

Speaker 2 (01:38:43):
Why Michaelman?

Speaker 3 (01:38:44):
Why is a bereading father?

Speaker 2 (01:38:46):
I met his son?

Speaker 4 (01:38:48):
Because mean he's a murder I'm sorry.

Speaker 2 (01:38:49):
I didn't mean to lash.

Speaker 14 (01:38:50):
Out at Michael Ben.

Speaker 4 (01:38:51):
WHI fair enough?

Speaker 6 (01:38:54):
Okay, that's fair enough. Remind me your name, Colors, Oh.

Speaker 2 (01:38:57):
My name was Dean. I'm sorry. I didn't need to say.

Speaker 6 (01:39:00):
I meant the son, not the full Okay, good, okay, Dane, No,
fair enough, we're past that. We've stipulated to that. The
I guess Bruce had a specific question for you, and
then went on and then made some comments, but I mean,
have you followed this story somewhat closely over the years,
I mean you kind of understand the whole reason that

(01:39:21):
Michael Benwah and many many other people look at WWE
as being culpable to an extent for the condition that
Chris Benwa was in at the time that all this happened.
And again this is not, oh, it's all vintok Man's fault.
That's not the point. The point is it was Chris
Benwall was a perfect storm. What happened with him was
of a whole conglomeration of a lot of things, but

(01:39:42):
it was not poss It was not likely that something
like this would have happened, to put it, to say
the least without the uh, without ben WA's career and
the way that w W handled himself. Bob Costas last
night on NBC during the Football Game said, the NFL
needs to take it needs to make sure, for legal

(01:40:04):
reasons down the line, that they have done everything possible
to mitigate head injuries or football players, because if they don't,
hear's from now when football players are having major issues
with brain function, with psychological issues, headache issues, depression, all
the things that educate yourself even a tiny bit on
the subject. And I'm talking about WWE, I'm talking about

(01:40:24):
UD and I'm talking about wrestlers.

Speaker 3 (01:40:26):
They all need to.

Speaker 6 (01:40:27):
Bob Costa said, the NFL is going to be in
big trouble legally if they don't do everything to mitigate
the working the possibility of risk for working conditions. And
you can't say that Vincent Man did that. I've told
the story before. I talked to a WW executive when
Chris Benwalck came back from his next fusion surgery, and
I said, why are you letting Chris benwan do but
headbuts off the top rope? And he said, what are
we supposed to do? Fine and suspend him, And I said, yes,

(01:40:49):
you had the power to do that, to put the
all the to tell the wrestler, Hey, in the middle
of competing for a spot, in the middle of being
wrapped up and trying to extend your review the best
that you can be to continue to have financial incentives
in a competitive environment in which wrestlers, year after year
after year after year are addicted to pain hills, often

(01:41:10):
dying from it, and taking steroids or testosterone. As WW
likes the falsely differentiate it from steroids, and they know
that and they go nearly you know, they go five
to ten years not testing because it's not cost effective.
I'm sorry. There's culpability there. And Michael Benwah was right
to speak out about ww' dragging their feet and many
many areas that led to the situation where Chris Benwock

(01:41:32):
went nuts and snacks. And I don't think anybody educated
on the subjects would say that ben Wah's brain wasn't
greatly affected by all the years in WWE that he's
spent there, and it could have been in the situation,
could have been differently at WWE stepped in quicker with
the concussion testing and with rough testing.

Speaker 2 (01:41:50):
Yeah, but my question is he was a pro wrestler
fifteen years prior to SAD, so couldn't you argue that
this damage was already done to him. That's a point
that Michael Baywatt didn't nick. He always stated in JOW,
this guy was in w c W, Japan, e c
W and he was doing the same stuff. It's not worse.

Speaker 3 (01:42:12):
Ruth.

Speaker 4 (01:42:15):
Well, in those fifteen years that Chris ben Law was
plying his trade in other places, he was trying to
get into WWE, because w W set set the standard
for what wrestling was. And one of the one of
the things that he fought against that whole time was
his lack of size and his lack of you know,
and so he had to deal with that. And the
person who set that standard was Vincent Man. First, he

(01:42:37):
set the standard for the entire business and and and
what it took, and what kind of travel it took,
and what kind of what kind of wrestling they had,
and how much time they had to take off for
for injuries, and how what kind of what kind of
insurance they had, and what kind of benefits they they got,
and what kind of time that they could take off,

(01:42:58):
how much they got paid was Vincent May. So you know,
even during that fifteen years, he was setting that, you know,
he was setting that standard. And no, I mean it's
not it's not that it's it's not that he didn't
and I mean it's not that it's not that Chris
Benoh wasn't somewhere else. But Chris ben Wat during that
time was that size. And he had fifty nine to

(01:43:18):
one testosterone you know, testosteron ratio when he died, and
he was and he was still competing for that company
with their wellness policy going on, and they knew, you know,
they knew that, and they were allowing it to go on,
and they were they were they weren't backing off on him.
So you know, it's too I'm sorry, I mean, I'm
gonna I'm gonna say this to this color. It's too

(01:43:39):
simple to say. It's it's w W's father or it's
just a man's father or whatever it is. But they
have they have a strong hand in creating the environment
where what happened happened. Who killed those people? Who killed himself,
Chris ben a wir, who killed his family, who killed
his wife, who killed his child, Chris Benoi. What created
Chris ben wah was the rest was the wrestling culture entirely,

(01:44:03):
and who and who was the most Who is the
most influential person in creating that wrestling culture? This is
man And there's a lot more to read about this.
There's a lot more. And I encourage you to get
a you know, to spend a month and you spend
seven dollars to get a month for and read and
read here in the Torch. We covered it, and we
covered it very much in death. Way Keller wrote a

(01:44:23):
ton about it, and so did I. There's a lot
of audio about it, and there's other places too that
are in credible to do that.

Speaker 1 (01:44:29):
But just to.

Speaker 4 (01:44:30):
Babysake, Desic Man and Heal, Michael Dunlaw is just grossly
impaired of most of.

Speaker 1 (01:44:43):
You don't have to wait for the way Keller Pro
Wrestling post show to find out what I thought of
Monday Night Raw and SmackDown. Each week, you can check
out my reports that are updated live throughout Raw and
SmackDown at pw torch dot com. My written report will
tell you what's happening in detail in case you missed
the show, and it'll also end lies key segments and
give my random thoughts quips on what I am watching

(01:45:04):
as it airs. So check it out every Monday night
and Tuesday night at pewtorch dot com. That also applies
to WWE payperviews. I cover those live at pw torch
dot com with a detailed written report with star ratings,
and of course you can find other TV reports from
other contributors to PW torch such as nxt roh, Impact
Wrestling and more. Check it out pw torch dot com

(01:45:26):
your first stop for TV and pay per views, written.

Speaker 6 (01:45:29):
Reports, and I'll say this. I'll say this too. WWE
is a leader in this industry and Chris Benawall worked
for them for many years leading up to this incident.
When you say, who's to say all the damage wasn't

(01:45:50):
done before he got there, sounds like you're making an
excuse for WWE about something when clearly the majority all
of his matches in the second half of his career,
the latter years of his career we're in WWE. He
had next fusion surgery during that time, took up, took
time off, and came back as he got older and

(01:46:12):
was into his late thirties. Ww sh'd know this by now.
They didn't turn their head to it. When wrestlers get older,
it gets harder to do what you did when you
were fifteen years younger, and they will go to extreme
measures to do that. But in fairness to WWE, in fairness, ww.

Speaker 4 (01:46:26):
We know a lot more about grain injury now in.

Speaker 6 (01:46:28):
Part because of what happened to Chris ben Wax then
we did then we did eight years ago. Okay, but
that's not to stay. But here here's my major point.
That's not to say that when you look at WWE's
track records that probably nineteen out of in nineteen out
of twenty areas, they dragged their seats and were too
slow to move on all of these matters that I

(01:46:50):
have been writing about for twenty three years and Bruce
has been writing about for twenty years. They've dragged their
feet on it. And so no, they can't just say, well,
we're doing the right thing now, so forgive us for
dragging our feet when other people were yelling at the
top of a mountain saying this is not going to
end well unless you are more proactive. And it hasn't
been a company that's been proactive. And I think that's
what Michael Benwack, speaking to Final Word dings, Oh like

(01:47:12):
final one is you said.

Speaker 2 (01:47:14):
A w is industry leader, and that's true. But what
about TNA. TNA doesn't have to follow what w says.
They're horrible.

Speaker 6 (01:47:21):
They're horrible. There's just a t and a DNA could
be way worse than WWE. It doesn't change my opinion
on WWE. They they're irrelevant in that sense. There could
be another organization even worse than TNA. That's un National
Television doesn't change the discussion. WWE is the industry leader
and they they have been around forever. They've been around

(01:47:42):
since the beginning of Chris Benwa's career, and so this
is about them, I mean, it isn't about it's TNA worse.
That's just I mean, Ruth, you deal with adding your
fourth grade class, but not you know, adults don't have
the discussion about TNA's worse. The w W shouldn't play well,
I'm saying w.

Speaker 3 (01:47:58):
Can't owner TNA.

Speaker 2 (01:47:59):
They can't go the Carter and say, Dixie, don't use
chair shots to the head, don't do blood, don't say
why is your business?

Speaker 6 (01:48:05):
That's my point.

Speaker 2 (01:48:06):
I'm not saying that who's worse. I'm just saying they
have no control over the TNA's content.

Speaker 6 (01:48:11):
But that what does that have to do with anything?

Speaker 2 (01:48:13):
Well, because you're saying that they're the industry leader, they
have control over the industry. They don't have a role
over t and a's behavior.

Speaker 4 (01:48:20):
But they get the standard for the industry and TNA
and Dixie Carter and Jeff Jarrett and Decrusso all believe
in what vicent Man has. In fact, they have taken
advantage of the things that Vincent man has cleaned up
in this company and they are trying and then they
are not paying attention to these saints. You can you
can see, you can see what Jeff Harready did to
mister Anderson on Thursday night with that chair, with the

(01:48:43):
chair shot to the back of the head. Which if
you watch UC Saturday night, you saw the UOC And
here's this real sport. And they won't let anybody shit.
They won't let guys hit hit each other in the
back of the head because it's too dangerous. So another day,
you know. But I'll say this, TNA and TNA is
held is held responsible by knowledgeable reporters and commentators for

(01:49:07):
what they do themselves. No one, no one gives them
a path. Believe me, if you read our stuff, we don't.
I mean, you know, no one knowing that. They complain
a lot about that they don't get a fair safe
from the tours because we hold them responsible for exactly
these issues.

Speaker 2 (01:49:23):
I understand that that. My point was that d McMahon
has no even though he's the industry leader, he has
no control over their content. So they say that they're
gonna follow McMahon's PG set.

Speaker 4 (01:49:33):
There's a difference. There's a difference between saying he can
call them up and tell them what to do and
saying that they follow his example. They follow his example. Look,
all you got to do is look at who's in
their talent roster, who gets pushed to see if they
follow the example, and look who Look who runs TNA's creative,
you know creative. It's people that with exception of Exhibishop,
learn their craft in w w A and didn't read,

(01:49:56):
you know, didn't learn that didn't learn the modern graph.
So I mean they they followed ww I'm not saying
that that he wanders them too. I'm just telling you
that they follow the example that WWE, including how wrestlers look.

Speaker 6 (01:50:09):
And you know what, Okay Andrea exactly and and if
even if T and A n following their footsteps, it's
still you don't we don't even need to take the
discussion that direction. It's just distracting from the fact that
WWE employed Ben Wah for years and years and years
and years, and under that policy, Chris Benoit's brain got
worse and worse and worse and worse, and then he
did what he did. And Michael Benoi, I think is

(01:50:31):
speaking out not just out of anger for what happened
to his sons as a grieving father, but standing up
and saying let's not just do barely enough for what
we think is enough to get up. Media are pass
the extreme media, Let's actually do more than we the
bare minimum that we have to in order to protect
this from happening to somebody else again. And obviously WWE

(01:50:53):
is moving in that direction clearly the whole I mean
in all contact sports, with the whole controversy in the
NFL last week, it's clearly being taken very seriously. Did
I invite you to call back? We don't want this
to be a single issue or a single caller shows.
It's a it's a discussion. You're challenging us and we're
coming back at you with our thoughts, and that's what
the show is all about. So we appreciate your call.
I do encourage it. If you're not a member, sign

(01:51:14):
up to Peter b George VIP membership, go through those
back issues and read about it. We've Bruce and I
and other people on the tour staff have written a
lot about this, and you might understand our perspective a
little better if you're interested in it in digging deeper
into our archives. But give us a call later in
the week and we can continue this discussion. Let's go
back to the phone lines and go to Eric code
sixty five one in space to name and where you're from.

(01:51:36):
This is Tom Call. Hey Tom, could hear from you?
What's on your mind?

Speaker 4 (01:51:41):
Well?

Speaker 12 (01:51:41):
In the Lords of Money Python, now something completely different.
I was actually at the pay per view last night,
and I just had a few.

Speaker 6 (01:51:50):
Thoughts on it.

Speaker 7 (01:51:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:51:52):
First, the first one is, you know it's.

Speaker 12 (01:51:54):
Going to be a bad pay per view. In the
Dark matches the second, well, second or third best match
on the entire show, because I think VP, I mean,
outside of the Brian, the Danielson, the regular match, and
and possibly the sixth fourteen man tag, which wasn't a
great match.

Speaker 19 (01:52:14):
But it was at least somewhat entertaining.

Speaker 12 (01:52:17):
I think MVP and Shavel had a better match than
the rest of the card. Were you at the pay
per view last night late or no?

Speaker 3 (01:52:24):
No? I wasn't.

Speaker 6 (01:52:25):
Okay, yeah, so I can't beat of the Dark Man, Okay, yeah, no,
but it was.

Speaker 12 (01:52:31):
I don't know if anyone else was out there's listening,
if they can agree or disagree with me, but.

Speaker 4 (01:52:37):
Let me let me ask you this. What was the
atmosphere like love? I mean it sure see fla out
over my television screen.

Speaker 3 (01:52:43):
I mean what was it like?

Speaker 4 (01:52:45):
Was it what got the heat or did anything get
that get the big pay per view heat for.

Speaker 12 (01:52:50):
The shot Altho, it was early, it was everyone was
pretty What really killed the heat? I think was the
Buried Alive match?

Speaker 3 (01:53:00):
Want to nexus interfered with it?

Speaker 7 (01:53:04):
Interesting? Yeah?

Speaker 12 (01:53:05):
Well yeah, it seemed like that there's a there's a
lot of especially you know, there's a really big let's
go vikings chant right before it went on live. Uh
we there was apparently odd it was short but really odd. Well,
I don't know if it came across on TV we
want blood chant during the Buried Live match, but that.

Speaker 4 (01:53:26):
Was yeah, that was that kind of told me that
the males were enforced at the shot, which don't you
know you see them, you see us. I guess did
you see them more at you know, more at at
the pay per views and say you do it the
house shows? But that just told me you had more
of a you know, more of a strong male looking

(01:53:47):
for a violence shut you know, looking for violence. Crowds
and maybe a lot of their shots.

Speaker 6 (01:53:51):
Haven't you gotta you gotta be a big w w
E fan could be channing for the vikings had to
head with a Viking Packer game on national television. If
you show up add an off brand WWE pay per view,
and I know they don't come to your town, you know, anytown,
all that offense. So when a paper view comes to
town and you haven't been to one, it's it's it's
cool to go. But if you care enough the chance
for the vikings and you're missing that game, that's that

(01:54:12):
says something about how big of a WWWE fan you are.

Speaker 12 (01:54:15):
Yeah, there's a couple other thoughts. I don't know if
it came across. I was on the side with the
hard camera, so I don't know if it came across
on TV. But during the Diva's match, the big you know,
pretty much everyone around me was in that male eighteen
to thirty five demo, And so during the Diva's match

(01:54:38):
there when Layla was when it's time, was trying to
get back up in the ring and Layla was pulling
her down, there was a slight wardrobe malfunction. I think
I've probably got the third biggest top of the Nike
from my side of the arena.

Speaker 6 (01:54:53):
Yeah.

Speaker 12 (01:54:55):
And then the one thing I you guys, obviously sometime
I was there, I wasn't able to hear me. Now, well,
I was lucky enough not to hear the announce things.
But every time I looked over at King, it looked
like he was messing around on the laptop. And did
we basically decided he was messing around with his Sandacy
football team throughout the pay review.

Speaker 6 (01:55:15):
When shot.

Speaker 12 (01:55:15):
And he's been checking me either, and I can't say
I blame him.

Speaker 6 (01:55:20):
Yeah. And then did the.

Speaker 4 (01:55:22):
Crowd understand the finish with John for Landy, Orton White,
Barrett and John Sims? Did they understand what had happened
at the end of the show?

Speaker 12 (01:55:30):
Everyone I was around it?

Speaker 3 (01:55:31):
Did we all?

Speaker 4 (01:55:32):
Pretty much?

Speaker 12 (01:55:32):
We all just kind of looked at her like, see
who's going to attack Barrett? And Barrett's gonna win and
Barretts will win. So most of us have predicted that
finish already, but I don't know about the rest of
the crowd.

Speaker 6 (01:55:45):
All right, Well, hey Tom, thanks for bringing up side
you're in person perspective on the show. All right, yep,
no problem, All right, take care our brutt before we
get the phone calls. Then I really do want to
pick up the pace because we have maybe record listenership
at least for a long time in terms of the
number of want hooly want to participate in listeners and
the chat room is at a real hndnumber two. So
we got a lot of interests in a lot of
subjects and we haven't brought up the brock Lesnar Undertaker situation.

(01:56:10):
Saturday night at the UC pay per view Mark Callaway,
the Undertaker was present out of character watching the show.
It's no it's no secret he's a big fan of MMA.
It's one of the first wrestlers to incorporate that into
his uh uh into his entering style as definitively as
he has. And he was interviewed afterwards by Ariel Hilwani

(01:56:31):
of a of MMA Fighting dot Com uh in AOL
site and while he was interviewing Undertaker, this was after
the main event, after brock Lessner lost and he brock
Lesner walked by and apparently shot Undertaker a look because
Undertaker shot back into a comment that said you want
to go something to that effect, and then brock kept

(01:56:52):
walking and Undertaker told the reporter, you know that there's
something personal between them. Some people assumed it was an
angle and that you know, vinsic Man, who had reportedly
reached out to brock Lesner about a possible WrestleMania match
against Undertaker, had had somehow managed to orchestrate an angle
that between Taker and Brock to kind of plant that seed.

(01:57:12):
Dana White today came out and said that brock Lesure's
under contract UFC, he cannot and will not wrestle for
WWE while under that contract, trying to end speculation and
rumors that Brock is returning to WWE. Brock Lessner had
told Jason Powell of Pro Wrestling dot Net a couple
of years ago that he was open to returning to WWE,
that there were hard feelings at the time, but that

(01:57:34):
he respects vinsic Man and he would for under the
perfect situation, including a lot of money, consider returning to WWE.
So it's not something that Brock you know, may sound
like he would never do. He's had a lot of
success in that interview on MMA and made a lot
of money. So my thought is that, you know, even
before data came out, I'm thinking this is really strange.

(01:57:55):
I can't imagine Brock taking time away, but you can
create a scenario where, if the money was right and
he wanted to kind of, you know, give his body
a break from MMA training and work a one off
match with Taker, maybe that's the one singular circumstance that
would bring him back.

Speaker 20 (01:58:14):
I'm Kelly Wells, host of p WT Talks NXT, the
longest running NXT podcast Anywhere. Join me along with Nate Lindberg,
Bruce Lee Hazelwood, and special guests, live every Tuesday night,
just minutes after NXT, where we cover the good, the bad,
and the ugly on the way to becoming a star
in WWE. Check us out live on YouTube or stream

(01:58:35):
later wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 6 (01:58:45):
Bruce, your thought on this whole, whole situation as it
played out of the last nearly forty eight hours, Well,
I mean.

Speaker 4 (01:58:51):
When I saw it, I just thought it was I
just thought it just happened to happen. I mean yeah,
because because honestly, I just couldn't say Brock. This guy
at least you would think he's gonna fight Frank Near next,
and if he beats Frank Near, he gets a he's
gonna get a rematch. He's rematch with with Caine because
he's the big you know, he's the biggest money drawing

(01:59:13):
star in UFC and there's there's just big money in
so let's near just just wipes the floor with him.
He you know, he's got at least two huge money
fights up that that takes him for another year. And
I don't think he and I don't think he's finished
even if Blaquez beats him again. I mean, he's gonna
be an attraction and they bring back a traction to

(01:59:34):
your Thief fought on that ship. You know here Thief
fought on that show is Saturday Night and he's been
done really as a fighter for years, and yeah, but
he has Mark, you know, but they continue to bring
him in as long as he has marketability, as long
as he can he can at least put on a
semblant sort of performance and defend himself. So you know,

(01:59:55):
I really just thought, I really just took it like that.
But then you think Undertaker. You know, Mark Kelly very
much protects that Undertaker character, and he's been at those
shows before. We've seen him there and just briefly, he's
never talked in public to reporters on one.

Speaker 3 (02:00:11):
Of those shows.

Speaker 4 (02:00:11):
I mean, it's known that he you know, he's known
to be a fan and he's known to you know,
do some use some UFC things that his in his
wrestling style as the Undertaker, but he never goes out
of character. And yet there he was going out of
character and there was Brock Lesler walking by him at
the exact right moment, you know, and him saying, do

(02:00:32):
you want to do it? And that was you know that,
I mean, that was you just you think, you know,
Taker's pretty smart. And then I think he's learned. You
say some things from the end of your career, and
one of them was you call out a character one
time and people will pay a little bit more attention.
You'll do it very often, you'll do it ever, but
that one time you make it count. And then Lesler

(02:00:53):
came by and so I just thought, boy, that sure
looked like an angle. And then the report was left
out a big money offer on the table before Russell
made And I can't imagine the w W wouldn't have
an idea of when his contract, you know, if there's
a window in his contract where it's over, maybe there's
one more fight or whatever it is. I think Dana
White stepped up today and said, you know it, said
said what he said. So I mean if to me

(02:01:17):
it was always an annuity to go back after after
the NNA career, is you know, when it's winding down,
and then go back to go back to pro wrestling,
you won't You wouldn't be as effective the boy Wug
did him. That would be And and they booked it
the right way, which is not the way they would
book it because they would make it into a w
W character again. But if they booked it the right

(02:01:37):
way as a real outsider, they could make huge money
with that. But it would they would put rock Lessner
again into being a heel to the USC fans who
would not like him participating in a performance like that,
you know, in a planned performance, and they wouldn't. And
I don't think Dana White would like it. And it
could put some he could put his bread and butter,

(02:01:58):
which is ullc at jeopardy. So I believe that White
when he says they're not going to do it. But
there's a real interesting situation.

Speaker 6 (02:02:06):
No, it is, I sorted a Russian Bruce. We just
got so many people on hold, and I want to
hit be a little bit more sun body oriented, just
for the next thirty minutes here on a few of
these subjects. Quick thoughts. So, is there any history that
you recall between Brock and Taker where there is some personal,
legitimate problems between them that has been publicized.

Speaker 4 (02:02:24):
Not that I'm aware of, not that I remember. Now.
I don't have the greatest memory in the world for
some of these things, but I don't remember.

Speaker 7 (02:02:29):
Them having any.

Speaker 4 (02:02:31):
The two levels. And I suspect there's a lot of
respect because I because Taker clearly takes a lot of
UFC flyers and MMA flygers, and he was a lot
less of who he knew that made that transition. And
he's talked about if he was ten years young there,
ten years younger, fifteen years younger, he would have.

Speaker 6 (02:02:47):
Done exactly the same thing. So you know what I'm wondering,
and that the reporter did make a statement that he
wasn't part of any orchestrated work. He did exactly what
he's done at other pay per views when he's interviewed
other wrestlers who have been there. He does interviews online,
you know, these online interviews with Robie Camerman at the events,
and he has access to.

Speaker 4 (02:03:04):
Do that, so he.

Speaker 3 (02:03:08):
So.

Speaker 6 (02:03:08):
So I think maybe there's a possibility that Taker just stopped,
like you kind of hinted that saw an opportunity to
try to turn it into something. But if Brock wasn't
in on it, and it was very impromptu from Undertaker,
I don't know how Brock's gonna like gonna appreciate Undertaker
making people think Brock's still in the pro wrestling business.
And for thirty six hours a lot of people thought

(02:03:30):
Brock was back in the pro wrestling business taking part
in in work situations. And it also put that reporter
in a bad spot to make it look like he
was part of something that was orchestrated. Real quick thoughts
from Newbers.

Speaker 4 (02:03:41):
Well, if it was something that was imprompted, then yeah,
he took advantage of his friendship with Brock left or
if that's what he was, that's what he's thanking us
for the other thing. I don't think that. I don't
think that that you'll see would be real happy if
they thought that in a list of training for this
huge heavy win championship fight, there's gonna that's gonna draw

(02:04:01):
you know, there's gonna make millions for everybody involved that
rock Lester was thinking about something other than you see
in that fight and thinking about working WrestleMania was Undertaker exactly.
But I mean, that's that's another that's another thing. So,
you know, I still don't know enough about what this was.
What was this just an incredible coincidence, and he watched enough,

(02:04:23):
you know, watching enough of these kind of things over
the years, it's hard to believe that it's a coincitance.
It was hard to believe that Brock Levester just walked
by at that right moment when Undertaker was doing, you know,
was dropped his character and was talking about how he
thought Lesser didn't train hard enough, when all the reports
were he trained more than he'd ever had.

Speaker 3 (02:04:40):
In his life.

Speaker 6 (02:04:41):
And that's I don't think. I don't think Taker got
to that until after they walk by with Brock. I've
only watched the video once, I'll admit that, but I'm
pretty sure that my.

Speaker 4 (02:04:51):
I don't think that matters.

Speaker 6 (02:04:53):
Well, Okay, but let me let me make my point
because you're what you're saying is Taker was sort of
bad ball thing Brock before Brock walk by, And what
I want to explain is that Taker was saying nice
things about Brock until Brock apparently shot him a look,
and then that's when Taker changed his tune after that.
So to me, if you know, if you're looking for
a conspiracy I don't think there's evidence to support it

(02:05:15):
there because Taker actually changed and got more critical of
Brock only after Brock apparently shot him that nasty look
as he walked by him. If that's even what he did.

Speaker 4 (02:05:24):
Yeah, I mean, I guess, but I mean, it's just
I mean, I think I think that either way, he's
saying something that wasn't what people were thinking, and he
was critical of a.

Speaker 6 (02:05:33):
Guy, and you know, but but he wasn't until after.
It wasn't until the walk by, Okay, I mean, yeah,
I mean I'm quite All Undertaker said about the fight
is he got I wish we had a three hour
show today. All he said about Brock before the fight,
or before the before Brock walked by, is that he
thought that if Kane was gonna win, it was going

(02:05:55):
to take him four or five rounds to do it,
and that he didn't think that he thought brought would
win quit that if any if the fight ended quickly
be Brock winning, and if Kane won it would he
would have to outlast Brock four five rounds. I mean
it was a very objective analysis and it was only
after the walk buy in and take a reveal that
there's a personal issue between them or said claim that

(02:06:15):
there was. That's when he said, you know, well, you know,
maybe you know Brock in train like you should have
so anyway, I mean, just for clarification point, and you
know what, I think it.

Speaker 4 (02:06:24):
Was what was going to be interesting too. It's the
next toime Brock ruffis five, which will before russell Mania,
whether there any whether any w w russers near the
ring and interview.

Speaker 6 (02:06:33):
After the good point. I don't think Dana likes it.
I mean, I don't think Dana likes this stuff. I
mean they want they don't want anybody questioning whether Brock
through the fight because he wanted to make sure we
then have the title so it could be contractionally free
to go fight at WrestleMania. I mean, don't you want
people talking about stuff like that. You don't want to
think that Brock's taking you know, money from another group
in order to drop the heavy I mean, and who

(02:06:54):
would think you would really do that because there's so
much money to be made being an undefeated champion. But
people are gonna speculate when you have pro wrestlers doing this.
So Bruce, you and I are going to.

Speaker 4 (02:07:03):
Talk and you see, you know, you'll see and real
quickly you'll see w video competitors. I mean, they're not
going to talk about it very much, but take compete
for the dollars they's competed for it. Compete for the
same dollars they did this week in and so yeah,
you're not sitting there looking to any of your you know,
any of your focus. Wait it was.

Speaker 6 (02:07:19):
It wasn't an official US interview. It was an independent
reporter who did it and it got online and data
just felt a need.

Speaker 4 (02:07:24):
Yeah, but yeah, but.

Speaker 3 (02:07:24):
That's that's kind of a difference.

Speaker 4 (02:07:25):
That doesn't make a difference because it's still the same
audience is talking about oh, talking about this, and they're
talking not talking about King Valles Claus, you know, for
two percent more than maybe they would have. That's two
percent maybe around their half.

Speaker 6 (02:07:36):
I agree. I was just clarifying for the sake of
a listener who might not have known that truth that
this was not an official interviewer for UFC who went
an interview taker, but instead it was a reporter who
had free reign to interview people for his own independent
AOL website, and so it wasn't something where Dana had
as much control as maybe you were indicating. I think
in the future he might stay if we're gonna give

(02:07:57):
pickets out to wrestlers, we don't, you know, we don't
want to doing interviews at the show or something like that.
Who knows, or he may not care. Maybe maybe this
will blow over enough where you like it.

Speaker 7 (02:08:06):
Bruce.

Speaker 6 (02:08:06):
We're gonna talk more about this in the Bruce Mitchell
audio show later this week for VIKE members will have
all the time in the world to do it. I'm
sorry to rush you. I just we've got so much
to talk about and so many callers on hold, and
only about twenty two minutes left. So let's go back
to the callers. Thanks for your patients. Let's go to
area code five five nine. Please take your name and
where you're from.

Speaker 17 (02:08:24):
Hey, this is Steve from California.

Speaker 6 (02:08:26):
Hey, Steve, thanks for holding what's on your mind to
day no Wrong and looking ahead.

Speaker 3 (02:08:29):
The Survivors series.

Speaker 17 (02:08:31):
Do you think the buyerates would significantly go up if
WW announced two world title matches single matches and four
or five old school retro four and four elimination matches
with stories behind them.

Speaker 6 (02:08:44):
Maybe. I mean it depends on if the two world
title matches are marketable and they've build them up as meaningful.
I don't know that. Are you saying that as long
as the undercard is the traditional Survivor series matches? Is
that kind of the keyier question?

Speaker 4 (02:08:55):
Yeah?

Speaker 17 (02:08:56):
You know, like maybe with Dolph Ziggler and MS captaining
his team and maybe the NeXT's versus somebody you know,
you know where the four and four traditional matches have
some story behind them, but the undercard is mainly those
matches you know not s don't.

Speaker 6 (02:09:10):
I don't, Bruce, I'll throw it to you in a second.
I don't think that the Survivor Series for elimination matches
mean much. I think they would mean more if we
didn't just have a pay review that had a seven
on seven elimination match, and if we didn't have other
elimination matches throughout the year. The Survivor Series was a
one time a year that they broke from the one
on one or two on two matches and did elimination matches,
and if Survivory series was one of only six or

(02:09:31):
one of only four pay per views, then that format
might work. Right now. I think what we found, Bruce
is there's no format that you can produce on pay
per view, whether it's Driver Series or Elimination Chamber or whatever.
There's no format that's really producing a by rate that's
any better than people to desire to see the main
the top one or two matches in the main event.
That's what's selling these pay per views, and anything that

(02:09:52):
distracts from it seems to be a negative, including these
concepts styled undercards.

Speaker 1 (02:09:58):
Thanks for downloading today's show. Take it to the next
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(02:10:18):
Everything with Rich Fan and The Fix with Todd Martin's
signature VIP series that you're missing out without a VIP membership,
So go vip here in twenty twenty two and enjoy
all the benefits, all the bonus content and the ad
free listening experience. Pw torch dot com, slash go vip.

Speaker 7 (02:10:37):
No.

Speaker 4 (02:10:37):
I agree again, but definitely agree with that. It's always
been that case. It's always been the big you know,
the big stars, and once you put what stories you
put them there, and how you build them up to
a climax that people want to see either the next
chapter in the story or and that I mean, it
sounds simple, but it's hard to do in the next
or or the blowoff or the final climatic. I don't

(02:11:01):
think that. And I just the other thing is, I
don't think the we right now in SmackDown or Raw.
We saw it last night in the battle between the
two brands. I don't think they have enough of I
don't really have enough depths to do four teams for
Survivor series. And you just know, you have to remember
they brought that Survivor series recently last year, that concept,

(02:11:21):
but they've had the name all these years. For the
last ten or fifteen years, they really had not done
Survivor Serius and most most fans there's not a real
nostalgia for that and there's not. It's not a transition
that they they buy into the way they buy into roll.

Speaker 6 (02:11:34):
Well, I'll see anything else before.

Speaker 17 (02:11:37):
We Yeah, I guess, well, I guess I would have been.
My point was the nostalgia. You know, people would be
drawn to it because it's a you know, to.

Speaker 4 (02:11:45):
Take them back.

Speaker 17 (02:11:45):
But I guess, being twenty eight, I'm too old for
that now.

Speaker 4 (02:11:49):
I guess. I know.

Speaker 6 (02:11:50):
Honestly, I don't think anybody who's not inclined to buy
a pay per view, who remembers the old styles for
every series and has fun memories of it, I just
don't think that audience is big enough to to be
a strong consideration, you know. I just don't think there's
enough people who are, you know, thirty five to fifty
who remember that era and say, yeah, give me a
new version of it. And really, I just they do

(02:12:11):
too many elimination matches, they do too much of everything.
For anything to stand out, it's got to be that
one on one world title match and then one or
two really strong supporting matches. I just don't think we're
in an era where an undercar draws I think in
the aggregate over the course of a year or two
having a lot of matches like last night Ziggler versus
Brian Daniel Bryant four Star match. Putting more of that

(02:12:34):
on your show makes the experience of watching a pay
per view more pleasant. You feel you've got your money's worth,
and I think that can build loyalty to the idea
of being sold in pay per view. But I don't
think they're gonna pop a by raid based on what
they do on the Undercards, Survivory Series or otherwise. Pace
all right, all right, thanks for a call. We're going
to go to the next color right away here area

(02:12:56):
code nine one four. Thanks for calling to these states.
Your name and where you're from.

Speaker 4 (02:13:01):
My name is Steve. I'm from Florida.

Speaker 6 (02:13:03):
Hey, Steve, what's on your mind today?

Speaker 3 (02:13:07):
Quick question for you.

Speaker 19 (02:13:08):
We're getting closer to wrestle Mania now and taking out
the undertake.

Speaker 3 (02:13:13):
A brock luster thing, which I don't think is gonna happen.

Speaker 19 (02:13:17):
Would you guys care to venture I guess as to
your top three WrestleMania matches, where you think WW is going,
and where you'd.

Speaker 3 (02:13:25):
Like them to go to WrestleMania.

Speaker 6 (02:13:28):
Bruce, It's it's pretty early for that, although I'll say
I don't think there's anything that jumps out as a
real front runner. We'll get this question a lot. We've
already talked about it in recent weeks too, and it's
a changing target in terms of trying to pinpoint where
they're going. I think John Cena versus Undertaker has been
a match that was talked about last year at this

(02:13:48):
time before Michaels brought up wanting to retire, and so
they switch gears on that. Anything jump out to you
for Undertaker or John Cena different than that that seems
like it's a Wrestmania caliber match.

Speaker 4 (02:14:00):
Well, I mean, I think I think one thing that
depends on is does undertake is this undertakers retirement year?
Is this going to be his retirement match or is
this going to be you know, he's defending his reprimand history.
I think that's part of it. And I don't know
the answer to that, although watching him last night and
hearing that he's going to be out for four months
perhaps with choulder injury, makes makes me think that maybe

(02:14:21):
the time is coming, whether he wants it to or not.
And you know, who knows, But I mean that's been
that's that retirement thing, is what's carried the last two
of these, and maybe they'll carry this third one. You know,
they I mean, Tobe Keith is on the mind. If
you know, I don't know how big a celebrity consider him,
but he's he's you know, another name. But they really

(02:14:42):
have laid off of the celebrities on law lately, and
I wonder whether they have somebody in mind. And I
can't think of anybody in the pop culture really that
would fit in a top match with but I would
suspect they're they're thinking about that and working towards that.
I have no idea why Lessner would be the ideal person,
but I agree with the caller. I mean, right now,

(02:15:04):
Dana White said he's not gonna do it. You must
have him on the contract. So they are, and then
you know, I don't know. I look at the you know,
Triple H will be back in the midst and to me,
I lo's gonna depend on the Triple Edge. The Triple
H comeback as a member as a heel and Navy
as the real.

Speaker 3 (02:15:22):
Puppet master behind Nexus.

Speaker 4 (02:15:24):
They keep saying, you know, wayde Bear keeps saying, there's
more to this than you know it. There's deeper than
you think, and so to me, that's him coming back
as a heel. But it depends on where he is
and what he wants to do. And he's been gone
a long time, and I'm sure he's got ideas for WrestleMania.
So if you're thinking Bruce doesn't have any real good
ideas and doesn't have any real predictions, then you might

(02:15:45):
be right.

Speaker 6 (02:15:46):
I think t Ah will be integral in what they do.
I think he's going to be in a comin event,
whether it's against Wayne Barrett, or against John Cena, or
against Randy Orton. I mean those seem like the most
likely scenarios. I don't see them positioning like Miz or
CM punk or uh. I'm trying to think of, you

(02:16:06):
know that the people kind of on that next tier.
I don't see any of them being really positioned in
a place where you think they would be ready to
co main event. So I think you're looking at Undertaker,
Triple H, Randy Orton, John Cena, Waite Veritt. I mean,
those are the ones who are gonna be in the
top two three matches in some order. I don't think
they're gonna, you know, split them all off into five
separate matches against five up and comers. It's not gonna

(02:16:28):
be triple h against CM Punk. It's not gonna be
John Cena against dal Ziggler. It's not gonna it's not
gonna be a triple age against Miss. I mean, they're
I think the top guys are going to be against
each other in some format, and and that's probably the
right thing to do this year because I'm not quite sure.
I'm not sure that that Mis is necessarily quite ready
to be a co headliner at WrestleMania. I think that's
probably gonna be a year from now, hopefully a gimme,

(02:16:50):
but I think it might be rushing it a little
bit right now, see anything else before let you go?

Speaker 3 (02:16:58):
Now Actually next live all love tanks, Well.

Speaker 6 (02:17:01):
Great, appreciate it real quick, come on, real quick, plub
we're talking about brock Lesner. I encourage everybody listening to
check out the MMA Torch Live cast. That's our sister
website and sister iPhone and Android app, and it's also
our sister live cast here as a blog talk radio network.
Just go to blog talk radio dot com slash MMA Torch.
There was a post show uh MMA Torch live cast

(02:17:24):
Saturday night actually Sunday morning, technically following the usc pay
per view. It started a half hour after the pay
per view ended. I participated via chat room, and uh
Rich and Jamie and Sean all did a roundtable discussion
of it and took live calls. If you're interested in
more kind of technical aspects of the actual brock Lester fight,

(02:17:44):
how did he lose? If you know whether you're a
hardcore MMA guy or casual MMA guy, it's a good
show to listen to. They also talk about the undercard somewhat,
but most of it is on brock Lesner. You can
subscribe to to the podcast or to the live cast
through iTunes. Also just to a search for MMA Torch
and you can get it on medically downloaded. It's also
iPhone friendly, so you can look it up on your

(02:18:06):
iPhone through iTunes or the blog talk radio dot com website.
And they will be by tomorrow night with another MMA
Torch live cast with further discussion on the show. On
Saturday night, a lot of focus of course, will be
on brock Lesner, including I suspect that Jamie and Rich
will be talking also, and Matt Helke will also be

(02:18:28):
talking about the undertaker of brock Lesner situation. So also
check out MMA Torch dot com for tons of stories,
including my report on Saturday show and a lot of
follow up stories regarding brock Lesner that's at mmatorch dot
com and the MMA Torch app. I've also referenced a
few times on the show. The PW Torch VIP membership
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(02:18:50):
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(02:19:11):
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(02:19:34):
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That's only five dollars, so you can start at five
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details on that available at pw torch dot com slash
go vip. That's pw torch dot com slash go vip.

(02:19:55):
We have an iPhone friendly RSS feed so you can
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Like I said, about sixty exclusive audio shows every month,
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and talking about wrestling history.

Speaker 3 (02:20:15):
Back to the phone lines.

Speaker 6 (02:20:16):
If you want to get in line, the number six four, six, seven,
one nine eight two eight. That's six four, six, seven, two,
one nine, eight to eight.

Speaker 21 (02:20:28):
Are you a nostalgic wrestling fan. Do you want to
hear about shows you haven't seen in ten, twenty, maybe
even thirty years. Well, I have the show for you.
I'm Pwtsorts dot com contributor Frank petty Ani and since
December of twenty twenty, I've hosted Pro Wrestling Then and Now.
Together with a rotating chair of co hosts. We go
back and review old shows from top to bottom, talk

(02:20:49):
about where the wrestlers were at the time, and compare
what's taking place now to what took place.

Speaker 13 (02:20:54):
Then.

Speaker 21 (02:20:55):
You can hear this so along with other shows as
part of your PW sorts VIP membership with exclusive podcasts
just remembers compatible with the Apple podcast app. Is it
pwtorch dot com, slash go vip for details and sign
up for.

Speaker 6 (02:21:14):
We now go to area code seven six oh seven
six O. Thanks for holding Ston. State your name and
where you're from.

Speaker 14 (02:21:23):
Seven six He learned from Atlanta.

Speaker 6 (02:21:26):
Hey, Larry, thanks for calling. What's in your mind today?

Speaker 14 (02:21:29):
Hey, I'm actually calling through Google Talk, so sorry if
my connection is not that great. I don't even know
what seven six oh is. I'm in Baltimore right now.

Speaker 3 (02:21:37):
Okay, Well, thank you.

Speaker 14 (02:21:42):
I guess I'm just trying to hit three points since
there's only ten minutes left. Man, I always hate when
that guy from Brooklyn Carl that Dean this time Chris
Other times I don't know what his deal is, but
the whole absali WW you blamed for Chris Benoit. There
was actually a story and pull us and on that
linking to the Hartford Current blog about Michael Benoir appearing

(02:22:04):
for the Blooming Dark campaign. And I replied to that
because all of the comments that were very ignorant and
talked about the same things that that caller did, saying
that you know, oh you know, WW had no responsibility
to step in and PNA does it, and it's just
not the issues they need to be focusing on. That's
all I'm gonna say about that. I know y'all covered that.

(02:22:24):
So my quick question that I never heard brought up
about bragging rights was that do you guys think that
in a Southern way they may have planted the seeds
for a scene of a full scene of heel turned
with the nexus because he tried to do the right
thing by himself and.

Speaker 4 (02:22:40):
By Randy Orton, and you know, it was like, hey,
you know, I did right.

Speaker 14 (02:22:43):
By you, and Randy Orton just gave an RKO.

Speaker 6 (02:22:46):
What do you think for.

Speaker 4 (02:22:49):
I think there's some intrigue there. Let's tell you what.
As long as as long as John Cena's out there
wearing all of his merchandise, which I think is a mistake. Yeah, well,
as long as he's out there wearing all that merchandise,
they're not thinking of turn on your heel. They're worried
that fans aren't gonna are gonna think that he's turning
heel and won't buy his merchandise. So he's you know,
he's wearing his hat. I mean you can see the

(02:23:10):
little tags hanging off the T shirt. I mean it's rediguous,
and I think it takes away from the angle. He
should be a Nexus gear and he should not like it.
He shouldn't be out there. Why would Nexus allow him
to wear all all his merchandise craft? But that, to me,
that's what tells Elson he's not turning heel.

Speaker 2 (02:23:25):
Any times time.

Speaker 14 (02:23:29):
It also shows they're not interested in Yeah, it also
shows they're not interested in long term booking because if
they really thought they could see money out of doing
sort of the full thing where he's stripped of his identity,
then they then they'd be smart and do it. So
just quick side question and then I can be back
on hold. What can Brian Davison do to stay out
of being that sort of opening match utility guy. Would

(02:23:52):
you what would you recommend he does?

Speaker 6 (02:23:54):
Larry, thanks for calling, uh, Bruce? Is that a bad
spot for Daniel Brian to be in? I mean of
opening match utility guy who kicks off the shows, has
good matches, maybe holds the US title or IC title
over the years. I mean the does Daniel Bryant deserve
or need to be a top, top tier guy in
order to have fans be kind of okay with where
he landed in his career.

Speaker 4 (02:24:16):
Well, I know that when I heard that they're going
to rematch that match tonight on Law and a lot
of people were spending wow, you know we get to
see it. We didn't. We didn't get the pay review
and would taking it as a good thing. I just
thought it seems to be the pattern for him is
he has a good performance and they treat him well
on the pay per view in front of the limited audience,
the less than hundred thousand people in the United States

(02:24:37):
for having people end up watching that, and then from
the millions and millions of raw viewers, he gets humiliated
like he did last Monday with that just ridiculous.

Speaker 6 (02:24:45):
You know, since one the.

Speaker 4 (02:24:46):
Fighters not getting not pull women, you know, since one
of the tough guys you know, not aren't able to
get me women because you know he's got one TV.
He doesn't have a TV and it's a art you know.
I mean, that's just that. So anyway, that's it's a
benefli My answer to that is being an open the
match guy who provides a good action is a better

(02:25:06):
plight for him than the spot he's really in, which
is the guy who's really good, but we're gonna prove
that he's not good because he didn't come up to
his WWA.

Speaker 6 (02:25:15):
Yeah, and I mean the very specific question Larry asked,
is there anything he can do? Not really, I mean
just it's it's really up to Vincic Man and Creative
to decide whether they want to do more with Daniel
Daniel Brian than have him be an opening match utility guy.
I mean again, I'm I'm it's not the worst thing
in the world. I'd like to see him move up
up the card. Let's be honest, Daniel Brian doesn't fit

(02:25:38):
the prototype of a WDW Bean made a Venter. You
can look to Eddie Gera and Chris Benwa as wrestlers
who were smaller in size who made it to the top.
You can look at remasterial somebody's smaller who made it.

Speaker 4 (02:25:48):
To the top.

Speaker 6 (02:25:49):
That's all true, and there is upper mobility there. I
think the number one thing that he can do, and
it's not really in his control, but it's I guess
it sort of is is get great crowd response. I mean,
if he gets great crowd response and they beat him
up for two three years on television, but the fans
love him and respect him and appreciate what he does
despite their efforts to beat him down and tear him

(02:26:10):
apart and belittle him. If the fans get behind him
at some point, you know there might be a They
might be in the same position they were in after
hook Cogan was in trouble legally and reputation wise, more
reputation wise, and they went with Brett Hard and Shawn Michaels.
You know there there could be a changeover and Daniel
Briant can just be waiting the wings for that guy.
The other thing he can do is is keep the

(02:26:30):
respect of his colleagues, because there's gonna be a new
generation of people with influence or a Maine Eveters, whether
it's you know like Mizz and cm Bank, you know,
people coming up through the rank stelf Siegler, they're gonna
speak out in his favor and say I want to
work with him, and I think we should push him,
and that kind of influence behind the scenes, that peer
pressure from his peers on management can also move him up.
I'm not sure there's anything he can do other than

(02:26:52):
just keep doing what he's doing.

Speaker 4 (02:26:54):
Yeah, he's gonna be finding time. Yeah, because you know
he's he's really the solid he work. So the tone
on him and how long he can keep going. But
but the thing is the thing that really is to
a favor.

Speaker 3 (02:27:04):
Is that offense.

Speaker 4 (02:27:05):
People like that offense and they were at real positive
to it when you know people with me Arena, so that.

Speaker 6 (02:27:12):
Everything says, yeah, uh, we're going to try to get
a couple more calls in real quick. I do not
want to get through the show without mentioning that the
TNA quarter hour ratings were terrible. Again, let me just
point this out. I'm going into more. I went into
more detail on my Keller hotline over the weekend. I
think it was one of the two updates this weekend,

(02:27:33):
and we've got updates on the site. But for those
who are listening to the show, it's important that I
point this out because there's no place for air Fishoff
to stand with it within Pulkogan to stand and Vin
Thrusseau and Dickie Carter's stand without their heads hanging at
this point, there's no slick explanation that will get you
out of the fact that the philosophy that they're clinging
to is failing. Two weeks ago, with the show following

(02:27:54):
Bound for Glory, with all the hype that Eric Fischhoff
had about an hour to celebrate before the quarter hours
came in that big rating that they did, relatively big rating.
It started off at a one point five to three
and it dropped relatively consistently throughout the show down to
a one point two to three at the end. That's
not normal for television. The Ultimate Fighter, for instance, goes

(02:28:14):
up every quarter hour. Other shows go off as the
show progresses. P and A is the exception to the rule.
It dropped from a one to five to three, down
to one four to one, down to one three five,
all the way down to one point two three two
weeks ago. Last week they started below the end rating
the week before, so those people who left during the show,
they didn't come back, and they even lost more of them.
They started off with a one point two to one

(02:28:36):
and they ended with a one point zero nine, again
the rating dropping throughout the entire second hour. The last
five quarter hours were one two six, one point one eight,
one point one six, one point one four, one point
h nine. In a matter of four hours, they lost
fifty percent, almost forty some percent of their viewership. After
the big hot shot reset at Mount for glory, Bruce

(02:29:00):
uh ten twenty seconds A thought on that and then
we're gonna get another call in here.

Speaker 4 (02:29:05):
Yeah, I mean they got some intrigue and what day
was when people found out who they was. They didn't
like it, and they've seen it before, and yeah, once
again they're in the same they're in the same spots
they war ex you know, it's worse because they've done
it again.

Speaker 6 (02:29:19):
I'm not kidding. I wish we had three hours state.
There's so much to talk about. Stay tuned all week.
We'll be here all week, including at our normal times
flat Tuesday through Friday from by thirty to six thirty Eastern.
I'll be by tomorrow with Jason Paul. We'll talk about
tonight's row and a lot more in the colors that
we don't get to today. Please call back later in
the week or next Monday, if that's the only time
you can call in. Let's go go back to the
phone lines and go to Eric code nine to one. Oh,

(02:29:40):
thanks for your patience, and please state your name and
where you're from.

Speaker 3 (02:29:44):
To Await and Bruce.

Speaker 6 (02:29:46):
Very good, Hannibal, cut right to the question for us today,
since we're so short on time.

Speaker 9 (02:29:51):
Okay, do you think, say Tom, you know they see
and then you know and Dixie card upon him and
got to this route. Do you think that you know
she should give Paul him in a separate brand and
a solo It can be up and coming talent.

Speaker 6 (02:30:04):
You know, I got it. I sorry to cut your short, Bruce.
Any chance of Jacy Carter looking at these ratings making
another call to Paul Ham and saying whatever you want,
you've got it? This is terrible. What's going on.

Speaker 3 (02:30:16):
I've seen the light, I'd said, a very very very
very small chance and.

Speaker 6 (02:30:23):
Very short answer from your Bruce. Would you have Paul
him in the keys to the car at this point
and let him run the show?

Speaker 4 (02:30:28):
You know?

Speaker 6 (02:30:28):
Do you think that it's that the administration now is
a failure. Ten seconds.

Speaker 4 (02:30:33):
I want to hear when he asks, but I seriously consider.

Speaker 6 (02:30:37):
Yeah, thanks everybody for listening. I felt like we were
rushed the whole show, and I apologize for that. So
many good topics today, going to tomorrow for another show
and all week we're here every day. Thanks everybody. Until
next time, I'm we having Bruce Mitchell Wade Keller signing off.

Speaker 1 (02:31:05):
Invite you to email the show with feedback or questions
or comments. That email address is Wadekeller Podcast at petwtorch
dot com. That's Wadekeller Podcast at PW toorch dot com.
Also welcome your feedback on Twitter. You can follow us
on Twitter at pw Torch and follow me at the Wadekeller.
That's at PW Torch and at the Wadekeller.

Speaker 16 (02:31:27):
Searching for more great pro wrestling talk, then join me
Jason Powell host them the three weekly Pro Wrestling Boom Podcast.
Each week you'll hear the latest news and analysis from
me and my team at Pro Wrestling dot need along
with other pro wrestling media members. Plus the Pro Wrestling
Boom Podcast features long form interviews with notable names in
the pro wrestling industry. Subscribe and iTunes, Stitcher, Downcast, and

(02:31:49):
all your favorite secondary apps, or visit us directly at
PW boom dot com. Once again, that's PW boom dot com.

Speaker 1 (02:31:58):
Thanks for listening to our podcast. Did you know we
also have a website pw torch dot com daily news updates, editorials,
and my live TV coverage covering Raw, Dynamite and SmackDown
and my live pay per view coverage for WWE and AEW.
Create a tab or bookmark make it a daily stop.
Visit us throughout the day every day to keep up
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Speaker 10 (02:32:22):
Need an extra dose of positivity in your wrestling podcasts,
will come join me Alan fourrel Over in the Progress
Paradise at pterwoo Torch VIP as we mask on the
bright side of wrestling and focus on some of the
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(02:32:43):
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such as the We Love Liger series celebrating the glorious
career of Jusian Thunderliger and our I was there when
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(02:33:06):
a list of all the VIP benefits is available at
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Speaker 1 (02:33:25):
One way that you can help us sustain our schedule
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us a five star rating on Apple Podcasts. Just go
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Thank you so much.

Speaker 22 (02:34:03):
In twenty twelve, NXT transitioned into the developmental system and
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podcast NXT Eight Years Back, we'll be taking a weekly
look at this page in NXT's early history.

Speaker 13 (02:34:18):
Join Kelly Wells and me Tom Stout from PWT Talks
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Speaker 1 (02:34:32):
PW Torch VIP membership doesn't just give you add free
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(02:35:17):
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