15 YRS AGO: Top Five WCW '90s Stars, Bischoff's blog, mixing young and established stars, NXT eliminations, ROH's business status

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Speaker 2 (01:05):
Now, PW Torch and Speaker bring you the Wade Keller
Pro Wrestling Podcast.

Speaker 1 (01:15):
On Today's Wadekeller Pro Wrestling Podcast four Wednesday, August twenty seventh,
twenty twenty five, We're jumping back fifteen years to our
PW Torch at Daily Cast live call in show. James
Caldwell guest hosting for me. He was joined by PW
Torch columnist Pat McNeil and in the previously VIP exclusive
after show which comes late. In this episode, they talked

(01:35):
about the top five stars in WW from nineteen ninety
through the end in two thousand and one. Also whether
in all submissions promotion could work maybe a little bit
raw underground like I guess, Also the Nexus wwefeud, what
to do with the breaking rights pay per view going
up against the Viking Packer game. That all in the
previously VIP exclusive after show, but before that, in the

(01:56):
main show, they took live calls on Eric Bischoff's controversial block,
how to find the right mix of established stars and
young stars, Caval's TNA reference during NXT eliminations on NXT,
and what to do with the eliminated and remaining NXT
rookies going forward, Roh's business status and how they could
draw closer to TNA, how to do seasonal wrestling as
a part of a normal rotating schedule, and whether WWE

(02:19):
or TNA would bite on such a concept, And other topics,
So let's get to it. Lot covered here in our
show again from fifteen years ago. This week, here we're going.

Speaker 2 (02:32):
You are listening to the P t B Torch Live cast.
This is P t B Torch Assistant editor James Caldwell
ost seeing today on Wednesday, August the eighteenth, and I'm
joined by P to B Torch columnist Pat McNeil. Pat,
how are you doing today?

Speaker 3 (02:46):
I'm fine?

Speaker 4 (02:47):
How know you people?

Speaker 2 (02:49):
There's a formal introduction for us today. Lots of big
stuff in the news today. I'm not. I've been really
particularly major elimination as an NXT last night. Eric mishoff
with a new blog last night by talking a lot
about ratings and that sort of sort of stuff. So,
you know, kind of two major topics in the news.

(03:11):
They're not really too big a story. What's in your
reactions to either one of those stories the last twenty
four hours or so?

Speaker 3 (03:18):
Okay? On NFT, I agreed with Lemonade Percy Watson. I
thought Michael Mcgilliketty should go before Husky Harris then, because
I you know, I'm just not He's a fine McGill
Ketty's a fine wrestler. I just don't see the you know,
charisma that would be needed in order to become a
big WWV star. I think if you need this, throwing

(03:40):
an extra guy who can wrestle into the nexus, I
mean Mcgillaketty is probably a fine replacement for Darren Young.
But that's about it. As for Eric Bischoff, you I
love being lectured on on how the wrestling business works
by Eric Mischoff and Jim. Jim Pointet I think put
it best when we said Eric Mishchoff has had two
years of setests in a twenty year career. And you know,

(04:00):
there's a point of out for those of you who
didn't read his blog. He said, you know, he said,
for all of all the people who have been complaining
about about his saying about how you know you need
stars to run a wrestling company, there's been sick Man's
conference call saying ratings were down because he didn't have stars. Okay,
well that makes sense. So when p and A added
stars like hul Cogan, Rick Flair, Rob Van Dam and

(04:22):
Jeff Hardy all at once and the ratings went down,
what does that tell you? It tells me that the
wrestling superstars are one of many tools that you can
use to you know, improve ratings and improve the quality
of your promotion if you know how to do them right.
But somehow the idea that there's some of the idea
that stars are the end of all be all is amazing.

(04:44):
I don't remember Eric creating any stars in the wrestling business,
with the exception of Bill Goldberg, and you know, and
I predict that pretty much if you give anybody on
the roster a hundred match winning streak, they're gonna start
getting over. I don't know, call me crazy, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (05:02):
I mean, if you look at it's kind of about
where I've been the last hour or so. It's just
kind of looking at the ratings for Impact this time
last year, universus where they are now and last year,
and also the content day last year. At the same time,
comes the summer, right before the fall season, they were
doing you know, one point two, one point three. Their

(05:23):
mixture was basically a lot of the younger talents, your
AJ styles, your Samoa, Joe's. Uh, they see Matt Morgan's
in there, Kazarian, I believe Kazarian was in there. Drops
he was still still suicide but beer money, machine guns,
you know, one of the one of these younger stars
who were drawing some pretty good quarter our ratings mixed

(05:44):
with the established stars. You know, the content wasn't the
greatest impact episodes they'd ever had, but they had a
pretty decent mixture with the name of a mafia for
you know, st of the attraction and the younger stars
keeping the audience. And now they're doing significantly less, uh,
their drawing significantly less than they were this time last year,

(06:09):
with a poor mixture I believe of talent that they
haven't found. And you know, since Bishop and Hogan have
joined this company, they haven't been able to find the
right mixture of how to use this talent and and
and getting over the new talent. I mean, the machine
Gun should be one of the faces of the company
and they should be pushed as a top act they
draw during the higher series of beer painting. They drew

(06:32):
in their quarter hours last five.

Speaker 3 (06:34):
Ye well yeah, and they they started then by the
minute ratings. I know because Dixie Carter said so, you know,
and basically, if I was as bad at my job
as Eric Fishoff is of his job waved with a fireman,
That's that's all I have to say.

Speaker 2 (06:49):
And you know getting yeah, and Bishop, you know, he keeps,
you know, he keeps trying to make these sort of
defenses that you know, I went after WWE and they're
lower nail demographic rating, which I attributed to their Monday
Night football last night. You know, there's a pattern of Okay,

(07:11):
that's that.

Speaker 3 (07:12):
Yeah, that's an entirely different topic. Look, you know, I'm
pretty sure they had Monday Night football. I'm pretty sure
they had Monday Night football eleven years ago and ten
years ago when WWE was doing great ratings. I'm pretty
sure they're still doing that. If they're gonna start the
Monday Night football excuse during pre season, you know what's
gonna happen in a month when when you start having

(07:32):
you know, regular season NFL football games. Because I'm pretty
sure that the first Monday Night Football game is the
Ravens against the New York Jets, and that's gonna be
big in the Northeast corridor and a lot of people,
you know, might be tempted to tune in to watch it,
and what are you gonna do? You know, And their
next pay for view is up against the New York Giants,
who are playing the Indianapolis Colts on that Sunday night.

(07:54):
You know, I'm again, I don't get it.

Speaker 5 (07:58):
Yeah, this is not the this is not the time
to be.

Speaker 3 (08:00):
Starting with the football excuses, right, and they're gonna get hammered.

Speaker 2 (08:04):
I mean it's it's every year they lose about you know, oh,
I know what the average is, they lose about fifty
thousand viewers. They go from about actually five hundred thousand viewers,
usually go from about you know, five point one million viewers,
so four point five million viewers on a weekly basis.
So they're gonna lose that audience. We've got a little
bit of taste of that on Mondays. That's kind of
where I attribute that that drop in the mail demo

(08:26):
that Dishoff kind of base his entire arguments on.

Speaker 3 (08:29):
Yeah, but they but they didn't. They didn't used to live.
I mean, they used to have a lot better ratings.
And they were still on Monday Night and they were
still on against Monday night football.

Speaker 2 (08:37):
And it kind of it highlights the importance of making
new stars. You know, you gotta have you gotta are
John seen as Randy Orton's your triple ahush if you
believe that he is a TV star and or our
TV draw, uh to kind of you know, attract the
audience and involved and want to get them involved in
whatever your storyline is. But you often needed to be

(08:58):
going in the future. And I think that next to
the storyline is helping offsets a lot of the drops
and you know a lot of potentially dropping viewership with
losing Sean Michaels and Triple H and uh, you know,
kind of the tea stat on the rock brand. So
you gotta go to the new stars and you know,
Bishop and what he's saying, he kind of he kind

(09:20):
of went back and kind of backtracked a little bit
in the second blog today, but the one he made
last night, it sounded like he was saying, well, you know,
this proves that you know, younger starts don't draw and
the established stars or the ticket Well, you know, that's
like you said, Pat, that's one toolbox. You've got to
have the right mixture of talent.

Speaker 3 (09:38):
And so I mean, well there, I mean James said
that that's why you don't blog while you're drunk. I
mean that's you know, that's all there is to it.

Speaker 2 (09:48):
Yeah, and there was.

Speaker 3 (09:52):
Yeah, you're gonna write something you regret the next day,
and you're gonna misspell words and misuse words like Bishop
did in his blogs because because he doesn't have Wade Kelly,
the grammar anapsy around the corrective.

Speaker 2 (10:03):
So you know, there you go. I'm not saying Mishov
was late night Twitter and other wrestlers did and there
think everybody kind of figured that out, but it might
not be a good idea to put something that on
Twitter at two in the morning that you're gonna regret
at nine.

Speaker 3 (10:17):
Yeah, that's that's good advice. That's good advice for anyone.

Speaker 2 (10:20):
James indeed, indeed, anything else on on sort of the
the Bishop topic or uh, you know, sort of the
subjective analysis that he that he kind of described on
what he thinks, you know, with his his sort of
media studies that he referenced and what did that that
holds any weight in terms of what it you know,

(10:41):
what TNA is doing right now with the product and
where they are in terms of results.

Speaker 3 (10:45):
You know, I'm sorry that Eric Bishoff doesn't like being criticized.
Eric would prefer to keep putting, you know, great shows
on the air like tn A Reaction and Scott Dao
turns forty or whatever. The hell it's called and you know,
not have to and not have to worry about criticism.
And he got very authentive and then he and he
he called out us US US reporters who write about

(11:06):
professional wrestling, and he called out, uh he specifically called
out Jim Cornett. You know, there's there's plenty of people
in his own business that don't think he knows what
he's doing right, and you.

Speaker 2 (11:16):
Know people, I mean, I wouldn't say that people well,
first of all, Dixie Carter probably wouldn't catch on to that.

Speaker 3 (11:25):
Uh yeah, yeah, well that's true.

Speaker 2 (11:29):
You're right, so you know, so that I mean, that's
the main thing. And I mean I think that Bischoff
has idea is a contribute he does. He's got experience,
but you know, isn't the type of person that you
want to depend on for your your long term vision
or uh you know, sort of the direction that you
want to take your pro wrestling show. The evidence, I mean,
it was based on what he's written. The answers.

Speaker 3 (11:50):
No, they tried his strategy. They brought in you know,
stars from the from the w W, atleast the ones
they could like Rob them Damn and Jeff Hardy and
those guys were them at Stars. I mean they you know,
they had headline WWE pay per views, but they didn't
know how to use them, and you know, and uh,
we'll back to where.

Speaker 6 (12:10):
We are now.

Speaker 2 (12:11):
So yeah, exactly, it's the mixture of the platform, how
to use it, the writing stuff we've We've got plenty
of people a hold. But if you want to jump
on the fall lines and go ahead and get in
line for today's live cast, the number to call is
six four, six, seven, nine, eight to eight. Of course,
we'll talk more about NXT during the show today with

(12:32):
last night's eliminations Raw with two episodes tape this week,
one live on Monday, one tape for next Monday. Well,
we'll try to avoid the spoiler discussion, but give us
a warning if you want to bring that up, and
of course SmackDown with another TV taping tonight in Fresno.
We'll get to that in the live event center with
Pat Later on the show.

Speaker 1 (12:55):
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Speaker 2 (13:27):
Let's go ahead and grab our first phone call today.
This is the two eight one, so I know this
is Houston. Let us know what your name is and
what do you have for as today?

Speaker 7 (13:36):
All right, hey guys and Chad Houston, how you guys
doing today?

Speaker 2 (13:39):
James's heads very good? What's about chair? All right?

Speaker 3 (13:45):
I'll just trying to make.

Speaker 7 (13:46):
It as quickly as possible. Sure, First off, I'm done
with Eric Bischoff. You know I'm gonna be a Ring
of Honor supporter, So my question is about them? Sure, okay,
how how far a part of our Ring of Honor
and tnas by find finances, you know, budget, brand awareness,
and as far as where they rank as far as

(14:08):
wrestlers themselves, is like no Hey, I want to go
to Ring of Honor. I want to go to TNA.
And because you see a lot of former WW starts
going to TNA, but none of them go to the
Ring of Honor and their current champion is about to
jump to w W. Where does Ring of Honor fit
and how do they grow to the next level where
TNA and w W aren't cherry picking their top talent.

Speaker 3 (14:31):
That's a that's a multi part question. Start with the
start with the first part about Ring of Honor you
want to know, and we'll go through them one other time.

Speaker 7 (14:41):
Okay, okay, their their financial situation. How do they grow
to the level where Ring I ain't where TNA and
WW aren't cherry picking their talent like they're going with Tyler.

Speaker 3 (14:50):
Well they right now they can't. They need what they
would want to do, I imagine, and I imagine as
their plan is. You know, now that they've had to
some I mean, now that they can have a a
pretty good resume, a pretty good video reel they can
show off when the time comes, they can try to
move on to another network, one that you know, one
that might actually I don't know, pay them in order

(15:10):
to uh, in order to put this show on the air.
That's that's one way of obtaining money.

Speaker 2 (15:15):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (15:15):
Secondly is you know they once they build it up,
they might be able to go from the internet pay
for view to a real live pay review. That's that's
one potential way in terms of live events that they
not only need to go into bigger arenas, that they
would need to sell out the bigger arenas. They're having
problems with selling around out the buildings that they're in, so,

(15:36):
I mean their financial their financial situation is not great.
They are not you know, they're having trouble selling DVDs
just because just because of the market being what it is,
and and the fact that they're on TV every week
means the fans don't need to get every DVD in
order to follow what's going on.

Speaker 8 (15:51):
I know that.

Speaker 3 (15:52):
You know, part of the reason that Adam Pierce has
gone is and Delirious as the booker is. You know,
they were paying Adam Pierce to book Delirious is already
on the payroll. That's one last guy they have to pay.
And I mean there are some other reasons why he's
gone too, But it's if you don't think that that
dropping Adam's salary is one of them. You're you're wrong,
uh but yeah, I mean right now, they're they're content

(16:13):
to just have the you know, have the better wrestling.
They have to create new stars. That's another that was
another issue in the booking change because it's the feeling
that they haven't over the past year they have they
have to constantly be building up guys to take over
on top. For when guys like Tyler Black and Brian
Daniels went Sam Punk waves. Right now, they're they're not
going to They're not going to add a lot of

(16:34):
money quickly.

Speaker 2 (16:37):
It's a slow progression if they're going to get anywhere
close to TNA uh. Ah Net. It's not a big platform,
and you know, Ringlettern talks like hg net is kind
of on the rise, and I mean, ah Net's kind
of there and it has its own little niche hd market,
but I don't feel like it's moving. I feel like
it's kind of the play you know, it's it is

(16:59):
where is and people.

Speaker 3 (17:01):
Know they're not yet. They're not any pressure to grow
ratings the Ring of Honor because you know, they don't
even track the ratings for for hd nets. But by
the same token, they're not gonna make You're not gonna
make serious money off the show.

Speaker 2 (17:12):
Either, exactly. And it's either you know, move to another
network and find someone that will put you in a
in a better slot. But I don't think there in
any hurry to do that. I think they're just you know,
content with where they are and trying to sort of
you know, outpaced expenses.

Speaker 3 (17:31):
It's right, Well, Chad, Chad, your your your next h
your next part of this question quickly, Chad.

Speaker 7 (17:39):
Yeah, if if even ten percent of the TNA fan
base that watches impact where to watch Wing of Honor,
you know, on Mondays, do you think we could really
help them grow substantial substantially by that?

Speaker 3 (17:56):
It could, But I mean if it won't really affect
Ring of on their finance now now two percent, you know,
if two percent go on go on YouTube or go
on hd net and watch their show and decide to
order something, you know, to decide to spend money on
a ticket or or on a penny for you coming
up in a few weeks, or or on some merchandise,
that'd be great. Right now, there's trouble with the Ring

(18:17):
of Honor website, which is you know, so that it
got hacked or virus or something like that where they're
they don't even have their online store open. And that's yeah.
I mean, they have all sorts of problems with things
like that. But I mean I think if you're I think,
if you're disappointed by what you're watching in w W
and DNA and you have a checked out Ring of Honor,
I think you you know, you might as well check

(18:39):
it out either either on YouTube or on hd net
and see whether it's something you might like.

Speaker 2 (18:46):
Next thing.

Speaker 3 (18:49):
Good h.

Speaker 2 (18:52):
We appreciate that golf is a good topic to discuss
this week with some changes, Ring of Honor. Thanks for
the announces to Let's go on to the next phone call.
Let's go to the five oh nine area code. Five
oh nine. Welcome to the show. Please stay teaming where
you're from.

Speaker 4 (19:08):
Hey guys, Jared from Kenwell, Washington.

Speaker 2 (19:11):
Hey Jared, Jared. What's their minds today? A couple of
things really uh far as NXT last night.

Speaker 4 (19:17):
I just want to get you guys thoughts and maybe
I can never tell what's scription what's not sometimes in
that show caball Little T and a jab. What's your
guys thoughts on that?

Speaker 2 (19:27):
What's your sake.

Speaker 3 (19:29):
I thought that was intended as a jab at TNA
for you know, for being incompetent and not knowing how
to take advantage of him. I don't think the w
W guys you sought that way. My thought Michael Cole
and Josh Matthews and whoever was screaming in their headset
got legitimate, legitimately upset when he said total NonStop action,
which is why Cole, which is why I called into

(19:51):
a lesser extent of Josh, we're trying to bury him.

Speaker 2 (19:55):
Yeah, I mean that that could have been a reason.
I thought it was definitely an intentional job DNA. I mean, here,
I kind of blogged about this on peedabetorchs dot com,
say about Yeah, that was a deliberate message to pretty
puts right to creative and Dixie Carter that here I
am on w w TV. You know all this attention
and y'all you know, didn't you it. I just said, y'all, uh,

(20:16):
you guys didn't utilize me at all when I was
in TNA, especially in the second run. Yeah, I mean,
got he Have you heard anything of whether he did
have heat over that comment or do you think that's
just kind of the way they played it up, with
the announcers using that's your conclusion that perhaps him was
a bit upset.

Speaker 3 (20:34):
Well, I mean, if they're really upset, they would they
would have switched it and eliminated him right there. So
I I I doubt that's I mean, I doubt that's
the case. But uh, I'm sure he got a talking
to about it, saying, hey, you know, don't we don't
even we don't even recognize those guys. Don't don't try
that again, play that and you know what, you know
what what was on the show, I think, I mean,

(20:57):
the show's not enjoyable most weeks, but I think Comal
and hust hear us of a real chemistry together in
the ring, and I you know, I think that hopefully
they'll be in a position where they can feud with
each other and take that match on the road.

Speaker 2 (21:10):
Yeah. I like their few I mean that was one
of the mini storylines on NXTED this season, was Husky
and Inca all going back and forth and it's a
good big man little man's hanging. Well. We'll see where,
you know, we'll see where they go with it with
Husky gone and where he ends up. The work of
all ends up? Do you heard any other question or
follow up?

Speaker 6 (21:28):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (21:28):
I have one more question than I'll let you guys go.
I'm sure it's been talked due to death, and I
know and know we've probably has a definite answer. But
when I get your guys's thoughts and just where do
you think the whole Daniel Bryan thing? Do you think
that was an entire work? Do you think like maybe
a week ago they said, hey, we'll bring you back. Now,
like how long is bringing him back to SummerSlam been
and play?

Speaker 2 (21:47):
Do you think?

Speaker 1 (21:48):
What do you think?

Speaker 3 (21:48):
Well, yeah, you'd have to ask Vincent man. Really, I think,
you know, I think that they are mostly looking on
the fly. I know that the I think as they
were planning to bring him back at some point and
maybe a couple of weeks ago, they made the decision,
you know, to that that SummerSlam would be the night
and yeah, and and then they told and then they
told uh, Brian or Danielson to whatever, we're gonna call

(22:12):
him about it, because you know, I think that shortly
after he I think that pretty much after he knew,
he called Mikey Whitbeck and said, sorry, I can't make
your show this weekend.

Speaker 2 (22:21):
And and uh, you know, and and and that's how
I went. Yeah, I'm sure it was probably made it
in the last week. That's kind of where they were
on roll. They wrote off great colleague on the Monday
before Summer Slam, and that's probably when they made the
decision that they were, you know, likely going to use
Brian Danielson in that spot and reintroduced him there. So

(22:43):
I you know, whether it was it a workahole all on, No,
I don't think so. I think it was, you know,
you someone was legitimately upset Danielson was fired. It was
one of those things where they're kind of monitoring how
you would react to it, and they were please with
all he handled it and he was brought back. So no,
I don't think it was a work I thought it was,

(23:04):
you know, based on everything that we know about that situation,
I think someone legitimate was upset he was gone and
you know now he's back. So good, good topic to
bring up, Jerry. We appreciate the call. Let's go to
our next caller in the nine eight five eerie code
nine A five. Welcome to the show, Please stay you
know where you're from.

Speaker 9 (23:22):
Hey, guys, is Cody from Tivida Luisi Hana, Hey Cody,
what's going on to do?

Speaker 2 (23:27):
Hey? Uh?

Speaker 9 (23:28):
First all, I kind of I mean the last club
just kind of touched him a first question, which was
you know about Caval making the TNA jab and then
and then you know, later on Josh Matthew, Like one
thing I said, because Josh Matthews, you know who's been
a support of Caval like throughout the season two, he
just takes a just takes the you know, a curve

(23:49):
and just totally untally you know, like he's like you said,
Barry's uh and so like I mean I was, so
that's pretty much an agreement that you know. Then I
guess it could of been probably that the uh somebody
and just shouting their headsets to just kind of you know,
it's kind of totally just bashed on them for that.
But the first call, like he talked about Ring of Honor,

(24:11):
and uh, I I do Ring of Honor a lot
of times more than other watching other companies like w
W and TNA. But one thing that I that's kind
of just that's really been that sometimes the biggest someone
nerves about is the way is there inconsistency in storylines.
And that's because if you pay real close attentions, they

(24:31):
send out you know, their video wires on YouTube and
then the outside of the pay per views, if you
pay real close attention, the video wires and the pay
per view are consistent with each other. Like for example,
for example, you had the storyline where the Necro Butcher
turned on Rashie Brown and Grizzly Redwood and joined the Embassy.
And then you also had the storyline in the in

(24:52):
the h at the pay per view where roder Strong
wins the Toronto Gauntlet and gets the next shot at
the Ring of Honor world title. But then if you
watch on HDNT you have you have that same storyline
with the Niko Butcher, but that not that's not played
out until weeks later. And then and that's for the
Rogers Strong storyline. He still had to beat David Richards
to get a shot at the world And what do

(25:13):
you guys think about that?

Speaker 3 (25:16):
I think the problem is, Okay, they they obviously take
their matches. You know, they take twelve weeks worth the
shows whatever, it's six weeks worth the show some time
something like that. Six weeks. Yeah, they take six. They're
gonna take six weeks to work this weekend, so obviously,
you know, it's not it's not all that fresh. They
can't go in like the week of the show and

(25:37):
and post produce everything. What they have to do is
they hogwood and praise that have to go out to
I think it's Colorado and and and do all their
stand ups and stuff there. So you're you're lucky, you know. So,
I mean there's there's this gap between the time that
they produced the TV and the time that they're doing
the live shows and the video wires and uh and

(25:58):
the paper views, all of which were controlled out of
the home office. So I mean, I mean they somebody,
you know, they have to come up with a solution
for that.

Speaker 2 (26:05):
Right now.

Speaker 3 (26:05):
I don't think they're terribly worried about it because you know,
but I mean, nobody is really pressuring them to to
put on the better, something better Ring of Honor shows
on on HTT. I mean, they they put on better
shows since Cornett arrived. But uh, that's you know, they
they're not being pressured to sink everything up exactly right.

Speaker 2 (26:25):
Yeah, that's the key. They're they're not pressure to It's
not a pressing need to have it all consistent. Like
you said, path, they tape it all one time and
they they try to you know, retro fit it to
whatever the storyline is now, uh you know off of
a pay per view or a house show or uh
even you know before it was a DVD. They're trying
to synchronize DVDs. Why these events pay per views and

(26:46):
the TV and it's just the video wires.

Speaker 10 (26:49):
It was.

Speaker 2 (26:50):
It was a mess of times. I think it's improved,
but yeah, it's not a pressing need for them. Yeah.

Speaker 9 (27:00):
So one last question I asked Wade, and Wade Tiller
and Jason talk about this. Just don't want to get
your thoughts on it. If they put Tyler Black on
the next season of NXT, what if his chances are
of when getting a winning record?

Speaker 2 (27:12):
Yeah, yeah, quite unlikely. But I mean I don't know
if wins and losses really matter on NXT. I mean
it's they kind of sit down on last night's show.
You know, Alex Royle loses a match and Michael Collins said, well,
what if this is gonna hurt or help him? And
I'm thinking he lost the match, that should be a hurt.

(27:33):
That's a negative, But you know it's happened me.

Speaker 3 (27:37):
Yeah, yeah, but yeah, I think Cole was saying, well,
the fact that he did so well against a real
w W wrestler might help him, yea, even though he lost.
Then again, they're not very good at explaining times on
that show.

Speaker 2 (27:50):
Yeah, it was why he phrased it. I mean, he
sounded like he was referring directly to the match outcome,
as if that could either you know, obviously the performance aspect. Yeah,
I mean if and Blayne gangleson he lost that Nage
Fatista on rall. Was it like two months ago, three
months ago? But you don't he looks good in defeat,
but supposedly when wins and losins are supposed to matter

(28:13):
on ww TV. It was just kind of the way
Cole phrased it. It was just really off. But again, duck.
The actual question pat Tyler Black, if there is a
season three of NXC, and if Black is on that series,
or at least on that season, how do you think
that he'll be booked or treated or presented or you know,
how will Michael Cole comment on him?

Speaker 3 (28:35):
Unless he you know, I think he might get the
internet darling, you know, burial treatment, especially if he's not
a little bit better on promos than what I've seen
from him and Reign of Honor. I mean, I think
that's got. I mean, I think the way that shows
set up, that's you know, if he can't talk, that's
that's a that's a real issue. And I'm not saying
he can't talk, that.

Speaker 2 (28:56):
He might.

Speaker 3 (28:56):
He's his promos aren't really done in the w WE
SoundBite style if they.

Speaker 2 (29:00):
Like, Yeah, I mean the Lucky Cannon kind of comes
to mind as a guy who did He's very dry
Baby Day's promos that didn't connect and Michael Cole would
regularly just rip on and I mean Parba Blacks. I
think he's better on the mic than than Lucky Cannon. Yeah, yeah,
I mean, but that might be how it's sort of

(29:22):
captured and presented the audience is making his promos kind
of be the Lucky Cannon promo of season three if
he's on there, I don't know. It would be very
fascinating to see Tyer Black in WWE, I especially in NXC.
If there isn't a NXT season three so that that
remains to be seen. Good call Cody, we appreciate that.

Speaker 11 (29:46):
Me an extra dose of positivity in your wrestling podcasts
will come join me Alan fourrel Over in the Progress
Paradise at Peter George VIP as we mask on the
bright side of wrestling and focus on some of the
great matches shows from around the world, be it the US, Japan,
Europe or Mexico. There's always a place for restlings past

(30:07):
in the Paradise too, and we've done fun historical shows
such as the We Love Liger series celebrating the glorious
career of Jusian Thunderliger and our Eye was there when
shows where our guests will join me to talk about
a classic bout that they were in attendance for. We
love variety and you can expect lots of it at
the Progress Paradise. Detailed pw Torch VIP subscription information and

(30:30):
a list of all the VIP benefits is available at
pterwrew Torch vipinfo dot com. And yes, all VIP podcasts
are compatible with popular podcast apps on iPhone and Android devices,
or you can stream them directly from our ad free
VIP mobile site. See you in the Paradise.

Speaker 2 (30:51):
Let's go to another phone call. Let's go to the
three four seven area code. Three four seven welcome to
the show. Please stay to annoy your crime.

Speaker 3 (31:03):
On the air, We'll call her and we'll.

Speaker 2 (31:08):
Put three or four seven back on. Listen. Shoot us
an email at pter B torstwive cast at gmail dot
com if you want to get on the air. Let's
continue on. Let's go to the eight sixty five aery
code eight six five. Welcome to the show, pay stitch
you name and where you're from.

Speaker 6 (31:25):
Hey, guys, this is Richard vern Tennessee.

Speaker 2 (31:27):
Get Richard.

Speaker 6 (31:31):
I've just been wondering. I'm I'm a big supporter of
maybe WW and TNA doing seasons, like maybe taking three
months off like TV shows do, And I was just wondering,
how you guys think would be the best way to
end ended if they did like like a shock ending,
or how do you think it would be good to

(31:54):
end it?

Speaker 3 (31:56):
Well, first of all, I don't think they should do seasons.
I think I did a I'm a thinking a couple
of months ago about that. But yeah, I mean I
I think you would have to have I think the
season would probably have to end up a pay per view.
I don't think you just do a regular episode and
then and sign off, and uh, I mean that's you

(32:16):
know that's that's a good question, especially uh yeah, I mean, yeah, yeah,
So I think I think a cliffhanger, some sort of
some sort of mystery or might not be a bad
idea or some or or a big surprise title change
or something like that something. But you know the problem
is you've got to wait, you know, you gotta wait

(32:37):
three months to to have the reveal. I I yeah,
I mean, I don't know. I haven't given it much thought.

Speaker 2 (32:41):
James, Yeah, I would imagine you ended, you know, if
you have two seasons you ended at WrestleMania with whatever
the big moment you've been building to is, and then
you end, uh well, let's see if you let's say
you take three months off and in the next season
in October, November or I guess maybe since whatever the

(33:02):
falls fault Springs schedules are. But yeah, they hit a
pay per view and have that big main event that
you've been building two for, you know, three or four
or five months, and you kind of blow it off there.
I don't see WW ever doing that though. One is
that they like to hold on to that, you know,
where the longest running weekly episodeic you know, TV show
in the world.

Speaker 3 (33:21):
So Okay, I yeah, I know something that they can do,
but they probably wouldn't be interested in doing it. Taking
I mean, we na Mona can take six hours worth
the shows on the weekend. You know, maybe WWE could
run ten straight days of k things, you know, find
find a building, their Stanford good take for ten straight days,
build up, build up your twelve or thirteen weeks from

(33:43):
SmackDown or raw, and then send everybody on vacation.

Speaker 2 (33:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (33:47):
I mean, I think that that sounds more like WWE
than just giving people three.

Speaker 2 (33:50):
Months off, right, And you know, I think ww is
so so set unless they still lets they have an
international tour on having you know, a relatively live episode
every week. And I think part of their fear is
that people are gonna tune out and they won't remember
to tune in if they took a break, if they
took a two month break that uh, you know, this

(34:13):
season ends. You know, we're gonna run best US reruns, interviews,
you know, DVD sets, whatever they're gonna do in that time.
They'd be afraid that people aren't gonna tune in for
the next season. And I think that's you know, that
along with one it is the longest running show on
the history of television is probably why they never would
do that. I mean, it's a fascinating concept to explore.

(34:36):
I don't have any major ideas for it, I mean, Richard,
I mean, do you have an idea for how they
would be able to pull it off or or is
there something specific that you'd like to see kind of
during that offseason.

Speaker 6 (34:47):
Well, I guess since it's live and there's a whole
audience there, it's kind of hard to do a shotgun
unless you do something taped in the back. But I
thought that last week's the end of last week's Raw,
I mean, I thought it was an incredible ending, and
I just think there's something like that. I mean, you know,
with the Internet, you would find out what would happen

(35:08):
after that because of a live audience. But outside of that,
I mean, I think that's something that you would wait
three months to see what happened in a situation with
Nexus and Team Seeing are facing off against each other.

Speaker 2 (35:21):
Yeah, yeah, good at that.

Speaker 3 (35:24):
Yeah, but you sort of I mean that that sort
of bruns counter to how WW does business, because when
they get something that hot, they want you to buy
it on pay per view. Inside of a week, but
you know they want you to pay money to see it,
so I you know, you'd have to come back with
a pay per view and you'd have to spend three
months of video packages hyping whatever they've built up.

Speaker 6 (35:43):
Yeah, that's a good point, because I go ahead. I
just said that's a good point, because I did buy
the SummerSlam pay per view and was greatly disappointed.

Speaker 3 (35:52):
Though well, okay, I mean the time. The thing I
suggested a couple of months ago to column is how
you basically add a a third touring group, which I
guess consists of you know, supers, the guys on Superstars,
the guys on NXT, some of the legends you know,
some some and and add a bunch of the older
you know guys who are are still skilled wrestlers but

(36:14):
you know are sort of burned out on w W
E and those are the and and throwing a couple
of legends like you know, Bill Goldberg's a w W
legend now and hacks out Jim Duggan, and you send
the third group out on tour and instead and you know,
instead of having two groups out on tour, you know,
you have three groups out on tour and each and
each group does about two thirds of the of the

(36:35):
of the dates that they were doing before. And then
that way they have there are plenty of weights left
if you want to if you want to give guys, uh,
if you want to give the SmackDown people five or
six weeks off outside of television, you can do that.

Speaker 2 (36:49):
It's kind of what TNA does. I mean, they have
a very they have a very light schedule compared to
w W. It's you know, it's increasing a little bit
in terms of the house show date but they have,
you know, a pretty good rotation of and they have
what sixty people on the roster. They usually use about oh,
you know, fifteen to twenty on any given house show,
So they really have about two or three different groups

(37:12):
of guys that kind of rotate on those house show tours. So,
like you said, Patt, I mean, there is a way
to make it work and kind of make it fit
with the talent they have and the number the dates
they're committed to and trying to draw those house show revenues.
You know, I'm in favor of that, and I think
that would work out with you if you plan it
out correctly.

Speaker 3 (37:32):
Well, yeah, they're not great on long term planning.

Speaker 2 (37:34):
At the moment though, Yeah, yeah, that's true, Rich or
anything else.

Speaker 6 (37:38):
First today, No, I just want to say I love
the show and thanks for taking my call.

Speaker 2 (37:43):
Very good. We appreciate the phone call.

Speaker 7 (37:46):
Pat.

Speaker 2 (37:46):
We're about at the top of the hour. Let's go
ahead and get to the Live Events Center and kind
of give us a look ahead to wrestling shows coming
up in the next week or two and what's to
look out for.

Speaker 3 (37:58):
Ah Tonight, w W is in Fresno, California. They are
taping next week's episodes of NXT SmackDown and probably most
of Superstars there and uh so I had no idea
what's gonna happen on any of these shows. I think
the Undertaker is set to come back on next week's
s Backdown, which is being taped tonight, and they're doing

(38:19):
m VP versus SAT Jack Slader for next week's SmackDown,
So that's that'll be exciting tomorrow night. WW Superstars on
WG in America. Your main event, James, are you ready
for this one? Chris Master is taking on Jack Slagger.
Uh then followed by followed by TNA Impact on Spike TV.
Your featured bouts are Kurt Angle versus Douglas Williams in

(38:40):
a non title match and a main event which I
don't think as we've never seen before James, it will
be Tommy Dreamer taking on AJ Styles. You know, you
know all that there you go for all that about
not making new stars. I mean, you know, TNA is
really pushing the heck out of the streamer kid, So
I mean he could could one day become something. He'll
be followed by an hour of t and a Reaction

(39:03):
on Spike TV, the the post game type show Friday Night,
WW Snackdown on My Network TV. Your feature Bounce are
the rematch from summer's Playing for the Intercontinental title between
Golf Zigler and Kopie Kingston, and Rama Stereo takes on
the debuting Alberto del Rio, who is not the most
interesting man in the world. Snackdown house shows this weekend

(39:27):
there in Texas There and Lubbic Saturday night, Odessa on
Sunday night, being headlined by the SmackDown World Champion. Kane
yay Raw is in Japan this weekend for house shows
in Tokyo Saturday and Sunday, Yoshi Tatsu headlining both nights.
He'll take on Jericho on Saturday. Then he'll Tima John
Cena Sunday night to take on Jericho and the WWE

(39:48):
Heavyweight Champion Shamus Riga. Bana's having its TV tapings at
the Arena in Philadelphia. Friday night TV taping will be
headlined by a cage match between Delirious and Austin Arey's.
Sat Day afternoons Tapion will be headlined by a cage
match with El Jenerico and Colt Cabana thanking on Kevin
Stein and Steve Creno. Obviously James. Saturday night will will

(40:09):
all be watching these Steelers and the Giants on NFL
Network for those fans of American football. Sunday afternoon, Carl
Wrestling Respect is in the Burlington, New Jersey. That is
the that is sort of the developmental league for the
RLH Wrestling School and it is booked by Delirious, who's
the new rh booker. The main event is Delirious versus

(40:30):
Harlem Bravado. You want to get their early tickets.

Speaker 2 (40:32):
Go fast.

Speaker 3 (40:33):
W E RAW on USA Network coming this Monday night,
pre taped in Los Angeles. Your feature bouts are a
triple pet match as Randy Whorton takes on John Morrison,
who takes on Ted DIBIASEI that take three away and
a non titled out between the United States Champion them
Is and John Sina. I wonder how that will go. WWNXT,

(40:55):
of course, will be on Tuesday. That our next to
last episode. There'll be no Eliminations Tampacts two shows next
week in Orlando on the road to No Surrender, which yeah, yeah,
this is, this is, this is gonna be some interesting
stuff going on. I don't know what's planned for No Surrender.
I know what was planned before Boomer got involved. Pro

(41:16):
Wrestling Guerrilla, one of your favorite promotions, James has the
Battle of Los Angeles coming September fourth and fifth. They
have announced a big match for the September fourth show
of Christopher Daniels versus Chris Harrow. You go to Pro
Wrestling Cuba dot com and you'll find out all about it.
That's go all them with two g's, two hours and
two else. Yes, I know, and that'll do it for

(41:39):
this edition of the Live Event Center.

Speaker 2 (41:42):
Thanks for the PDVS year Minder, because I forgot to
do a story on that today, so now I have
something to do tonight after the live cast. Yeah, make
that out of the way. It's always a good tournament
with usually the top independent stars in the country internationally
gathered together for that. So I I will be on Saturday.
I will be at the Strikeforce event at here in

(42:04):
the Tota Center in Houston for Bobby Lashley in his
big n and a return after his last fight in January.
It's all that good coverage. We'll be here on p
TOB Torch dot com, Sata, Funny and James.

Speaker 3 (42:17):
Since we're talking about NMA, for those of you who
enjoy that sort of thing, you can go to MMA
Torch dot com and also tonight, I believe w E
C is on versus as Dominant Cruz defends the dantamwight title.

Speaker 2 (42:29):
There you go, good good stuff, Pet and of course
you are listening to the P to B Torch livecast.
This is PW Torch Assistant editor James Caldwell posting today
with Torch calmnist Pat McNeil, Torch VIP member of Alert.
This week's Torch newsletter was posted online last night, all
of good stuff from SummerSlam, and we also have Torch

(42:50):
back issues posted today. Wade Tellen has posted a twenty
years ago Torts talk with Terry Taylor. That's fourteens and
that phrase good stuff all around. There of course a
five year back issue on the build ups of Summer
Slam two thousand and five. Pat, you remember Sean Michael's
Hull Cogan, the epic encounter that was supposed to lead
to part two which never happened. So I.

Speaker 3 (43:14):
I not only remember, I not only I not only remember, well, James,
I was there since it was at the Verizon Center
in DC.

Speaker 2 (43:22):
Yes, it was a fascinating, a fascinating era being there.
I mean short of that that era, I mean I
was there for the the raw. I believe it's the
row when Sean Michael's kind of super kick Cogan and
jump started that program. So actually, no, no, no, no,
I was there the week before that. It was when
it was like it was an amazing scene of I mean,

(43:42):
John Cena hadn't taken off yet, but he was on
the way.

Speaker 8 (43:45):
I think.

Speaker 2 (43:45):
Yeah, Sean Michael, he had Hulk Coagan in the eighties,
Sean Michaels the nineties and John Cena of the two
thousand and the ring together at the same time.

Speaker 3 (43:54):
That's true. I do remember that. Yeah, Johnson.

Speaker 2 (43:57):
He witnessing history.

Speaker 3 (43:59):
Well seen, it was sort of the w W champion
at the time, as I recall, So.

Speaker 2 (44:03):
Right, you just want to belt at wrestling A twenty
one if I remember my years crickling.

Speaker 3 (44:08):
Yeah, so uh that's that's true.

Speaker 2 (44:10):
Yes, okay, yeah, good stuff. Let's go ahead and let's
grab phone calls for the last twenty minutes of the show.
If you want to jump on the phone line in
the right now, fourth the line. You can be fourth
in line on the phone lines. The number the call
is six four six seven, nine eight two eight. Let's
go to the nine to one OH area code. Nine

(44:31):
to one. Oh, welcome to the show. Please say today
know where you're from. Yeah, I gotta do this, Hannibal, Hey,
well I'm gonna almost got it. Okay, yeah, first, okay, okay, yes, okay,
how about this fight here? You know Spike TV oh
looks digs.

Speaker 3 (44:48):
To you though about you know, following ideas of what
we pushed the older guy O ta he just go ahead,
just Gil Paul him in his own show, Push.

Speaker 2 (44:56):
The Yoga Talent. What do you think for that?

Speaker 3 (45:01):
I guess that's a question. I don't think they're gonna
do it for In order to do that, they'd have
to have a second show, which right now they don't
unless they want to turn Reaction into something else. I
know that they'd like to get the Explosion show out
of Spike TV and and and therefore have four hours
of TNA every week. You know, right now it doesn't
look like Paul Haman's coming in. And I know that

(45:24):
there were people in TNA who were talking about giving
the The Extreme Version two point zero sort of their
own show. I don't know if that's going to.

Speaker 2 (45:32):
Happen, so we'll say yeah. I mean, I don't imagine
that Spike would would kind of go around they can
get him in his own show that that's just not
going to happen. It would be fast. I mean, Haymen's
been talking about being involved in in the Bay. He's
at least floated that idea out there. It sounds like
it'd be more of a Strikeforce guy than the UFC guy,

(45:53):
although you know he's very such super broad sefester, so
I mean, who knows. He might see Hayman pop up
on a on a future UFC show down there, and
that might be how he gets on Spike rather than
through the TNA the TNA avenue. Yeah, I don't know,
and I don't know where Hayman is on that. Uh, Hannibal,
any other any other question or follow up? Okay you
as the question is this also too? Was this by

(46:14):
okay Man? Would have put an eagle with it, would
have pushed you though the uh rehashed into the e
c W O Uh. I think he could have made
a lot of money off of that way.

Speaker 12 (46:25):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (46:27):
Yeah, well you're you're you're, you're right, But that didn't
seem to be what he was interested in. He just
wanted to prove that ECW wasn't as good as w
W A and and he made sure that it wasn't
as good as as his other shows.

Speaker 2 (46:41):
Yeah, yeah, I mean it was it was about squeezing,
squeezing some juice other women, and you know, he got
a DVD and he got a couple of pay per views,
they made a couple of stars, and like you said,
at the end of the day, it was about sort
of you know, canceling out e c W and and
moving along. So, yeah, Hannible, we appreciate the call. Good
questions there.

Speaker 1 (47:08):
You don't have to wait for the way Keller pro
wrestling post show to find out what I thought of
Monday Night Raw and SmackDown. Each week, you can check
out my reports that are updated live throughout Raw and
SmackDown at pwtorch dot com. My written report will tell
you what's happening in detail in case you missed the show,
and it will also analyze key segments and give my
random thoughts quips on what I am watching as it airs.

(47:30):
So check it out every Monday night and Tuesday night
at pwtorch dot com. That also applies to wwepayperviews. I
cover those live at pw torch dot com with a
detailed written report with star ratings. And of course you
can find other TV reports from other contributors to PW
torch such as nxt roh, Impact Wrestling and more. Check
it out pwtorch dot com your first stop for TV

(47:53):
and pay per view written reports.

Speaker 2 (48:04):
Let's go. Let's go go nine to one two area code.
Welcome to show nine one where you're from?

Speaker 5 (48:12):
Marcus?

Speaker 2 (48:13):
Hey, Marcus, what do you have first today?

Speaker 3 (48:15):
That the markets?

Speaker 5 (48:19):
Yeah, I'll just and the lease cleanly lose his title
and keep the moment and he heads going on right
now that lives in.

Speaker 2 (48:29):
The US title.

Speaker 3 (48:32):
I don't know that that's in the I mean it
could happen. I guess they could do something next month
where Daniel Brian beats him for the US title. You know,
I I I think it's possible. I expect that it's
going to be a couple more months before Miz gets
his hands on on the WWE title. You know, I

(48:53):
think that I think that they can do something where
Miss loses the US title and it, you know, and
he and he survives it because if you saw a
fast on Sunday night, that was a that was a
fantastic promot that he did. He can talk and he
can get his heat back after something like that. Uh,
he can probably get his heat back after losing better
than the Nexo STIPs, right, and.

Speaker 2 (49:11):
That the US title belt, you know, it doesn't have
much value right now just the way it's been presented,
and the briefcase is more important than the belt for
news right now in his characters. So you know, if
Brian won it and sort of that that that big
celebration of Brian kind of getting that victory, then you know,
perhaps he could rebuild the belt. But uh, would Brian
having you know miws losing it's not it's not not

(49:34):
that big of a deal. Like you said, Pat, he
can get his heat back pretty easily after losing the belt.
Marcus in a question to follow up, Yes, you know
he and he took all the base people from the roster.

Speaker 5 (49:48):
Not all the old k mean, and the Ring of Vama.

Speaker 2 (49:52):
Took all the baseball bill rost they could come down
rosters and resources.

Speaker 5 (49:56):
How do you think they would fig his w W.

Speaker 3 (50:00):
What do you think if they were being booked by
Vince Russo they would be exactly the same.

Speaker 2 (50:06):
Yeah, and you know, a TV timeslot, who's running it,
who's booking it, A lot of different factors involved.

Speaker 3 (50:13):
But well, okay, let's say, okay, let's say that TNA
bought out Ring of Honor. Because I don't know, they're
both losing money. I mean, they're both probably losing money.
But I think that the Carter family has more resources
than Carrie Slilkan does. So let's say they let's say
they bought out Ring of Honor. I don't think that
they would, you know, I think that they would sidetrack

(50:34):
the Ring of Honor guys into some stupid faction and
they'd be fighting the EV two point zero guys, and
you'd get nowhere. I mean really there needs to be Yeah,
Tina is not going to be anything as long as
Dixie Carter's running it, except except you know where it
is now.

Speaker 2 (50:52):
Yeah, I mean, you can have all the talent in
the world, but if you don't have the platform, and
you don't have the booking mind, and you don't have
the management team to know what's do with that talent
and it's not gonna add up too much of anything,
you'll kind of be at the same level you've been
for in TNA's case, for you know, two or three
or four years at that one point zero, a little

(51:13):
bit of a push to a one point two, and
then something happens and they're back to a one point one,
and it's it's a cycle that's repeated itself. So the
issue is of the talent roster. The issue is management
and creative production and TV time slaws.

Speaker 3 (51:32):
So I mean, if you know, if things continue to
go bad financially for TNA and or a Ring of Honor,
we're gonna We're gonna find out this pretty quickly because
one of them will be go out of business and
the other will try to pick up the scraps.

Speaker 2 (51:45):
Yep, there, yeah, there you go. Uh, let's go to
another another caller. Let's go to the three four seven
area code. Three four seven. Welcome to the show. Please
take your name, where you're from on the air?

Speaker 3 (52:00):
Who anyone?

Speaker 12 (52:03):
Are?

Speaker 3 (52:03):
All right?

Speaker 2 (52:04):
That's sure? Yeah? Nice?

Speaker 12 (52:06):
Pat?

Speaker 2 (52:07):
Uh? Good God. Let's try to three three seven. How
about that? Let me maybe we'll have better walk to
a three three seven. Welcome to the show. Please state
your name and where you're from.

Speaker 5 (52:16):
Hey, James and Pat. This is Mike from Louisiana.

Speaker 2 (52:19):
Hey, Mike, what's going on?

Speaker 12 (52:20):
Mike?

Speaker 5 (52:21):
Oh, not much. I just wanted to talk about I
don't know if you guys have mentioned this year. But
if you guys bishops, what is blowed?

Speaker 8 (52:30):
Ye?

Speaker 3 (52:30):
Did actually talk about that?

Speaker 5 (52:33):
Yeah?

Speaker 8 (52:34):
I just know.

Speaker 5 (52:35):
Yeah, this guy is like I don't know if she's
just I don't know.

Speaker 2 (52:43):
That that sums it up.

Speaker 5 (52:44):
Yeah, I don't know what he watches, you know, I
don't I don't know what he's watching and what we're watching.
But it can't be the same thing.

Speaker 2 (52:53):
Yeah, I mean, Pat, how do you reconcile that of
where Bishop's coming from? What you know? What most people
see realistically. I mean, how do you reckon where Bischoff's
coming from and where realistically everyone else is coming from.

Speaker 3 (53:07):
Well, I mean he's he's fighting the same fight he
had a dozen years ago where people were telling him,
you know, we need to start creating new stars in
w CW or things are going to fall apart. And
you know, things fell apart. The company started losing money,
he was out of a job. He tried to get
into a syndicate to take over w CW after what

(53:30):
you know, to get DBS to sell it to them,
and it didn't happen. He's ben out of the wrestling
business for what a decade more or less, and you know,
he didn't learn anything while he was out, really, And
then I'll go with what I said before. And if
I was as bad as my job as Eric Bischoff
is at his job, Dade would have fired me.

Speaker 2 (53:47):
So there you go, Yeah, Mike, And any other thoughts
or any of those thoughts on the Bischoff blog or
any other question.

Speaker 5 (53:58):
Uh just talking about the Bishop blog for a second,
you know, talking about you know, giving all the credit
to uh Vince Brewsto and Dixie Carter about you know,
the older guy's putting over the young talent. It's like
what young talent, you know, you mean in.

Speaker 2 (54:13):
Terms of a young talent that's actually over or just
young talent in general on the roster.

Speaker 5 (54:18):
Well, he had mentioned that that the older guys, you know,
were kind of putting up that if they were using
the older guys to put over the young talent, and
then I don't, you know, I don't understand where he's
coming from on that really well.

Speaker 3 (54:29):
I mean, I mean, maybe maybe that's what he wants
the young talent to think, but I see no evidence
of that. Yeah, I mean, I love say, maybe he
thinks that Rob Van Dam and Jeff Hardy are the
young talent, and Kurt.

Speaker 2 (54:41):
Angle know that's realistic that he might think that, you
know they Yeah, I mean yeah, I mean since her
young talent could be anybody, anybody under the age of forty,
you know, and I mean Angle is right around that age.
And Jeff Hardy's blow that, Arvid's blow that, And so

(55:02):
I mean, I guess you know that's the thing about
about Bishop's blogs. I wish you would kind of fine
a lot of what he's talking about, because he's kind
of talking very general terms about the media, you know,
sort of these media studies from people within the industry,
and I'm thinking, what media study with whom? And who
connected it? And where did you survey? And who are
these people you're talking to, because I mean, I'm talking

(55:23):
to people in the cable industry who refute everything the
Bishop is saying. So if he's saying, it's coming from
people in the cable industries, and I want to know
where it's coming from. And and that's frustrating is that
he kind of makes these very general statements and tries
to kind of cloud it in these I don't know,
personal lene worth of these sort of personal attacks and

(55:46):
at anybody, you know, sort of painting everyone with this
very broad stroke that you know, you all don't know
what you're talking about, and I know what I'm talking about.

Speaker 3 (55:54):
But he doesn't go back, you know, James James, you know,
he doesn't meet off to believe me. Only one person
to believe maybe k Carter or and or Bob Carter.

Speaker 2 (56:04):
Yeah, So there you go. That's what that is, Mike, Mike,
anything else worth today?

Speaker 5 (56:12):
One more thing on the n x T. Who do
you guys like coming out of this season?

Speaker 3 (56:20):
I fully expect you know, I have fully expect Alex
Riley to win the season. I think Caval is the
best wrestler out of the group. Of course, he has
the he has the most experienced, so that's not really surprising. Yeah,
I mean, I think, uh, Miguela Cutty is somebody that
they can throw in with the Nexus Husky Harris is

(56:40):
a He's a character that's going to be on TV
outside of those four. And and maybe they might find
something to do with Percy Watson. I don't know, you know,
but I mean I don't know who the next deal.
Who's the main eventor out of there? I mean for
Kaval to be a main eventor they'd have to, you know,
they'd have to take him seriously, right, and.

Speaker 2 (57:01):
You know, perhaps they, I mean, so much of it
depends on what they do with these guys after this season.
I mean, Riley seems like a fit on raw being
with the Miz, But do they really want to have
the Miz kind of walking around with another guy or
do they want the miss to kind of stand out
on his own. If if they don't do Miss and
Riley as a unit, does Riley go to SmackDown and

(57:24):
does he get over there and where does caval go,
Where does let's get Aris go? Where does Joe Henning go?
Who gets cut in the process? So this will watch
to sort out, and you know, I mean, I mean
Patton very logical question that the next logical question is
do they bring some of those guys over to the
next group with h during Young being cut? Do they

(57:46):
add somebody to that team? Do they keep it at six,
do they have to be at seven? Do they go
to eight?

Speaker 5 (57:52):
What do they do?

Speaker 3 (57:53):
I mean, I think to them, I think if they
have plans for at least half of these guys, I
don't know, if they I don't know, if they had
anybody's nexus, they can have them form their own group
and field with nexus, which I are field with somebody
which I really don't want to see. And now that
I think about it, that they but they need to
use enough of these guys so that when they try
NXT season three, and I think that they are going

(58:16):
to try to I think that they're going to try
to squeeze the third season in before their contract is
up on five FI that people will still think the
contest is meaningful. It's last I heard the plan was
to have four guys and four Divas on NXT season three,
And if we're watching beginning divas matches, this could be
that could be a tough season to take.

Speaker 2 (58:37):
And I don't know I would last because the divisions,
I mean they're nonexistent. SmackDown's out of three people with
that out and company suspended and uh, you know the
raw division as Molina and Alisha and other people who
are kind of you know, window dressing. So are they

(59:00):
intentionally trying to rebuild a division of they just trying
to get women on the TV show And I lean
to the ladder.

Speaker 3 (59:06):
Yeah, yeah, that that would be my guess.

Speaker 2 (59:09):
Also, wait, wait checked in he said that RVD turns
forty in December this year, and he added that RVD
will be worthy of pushing soon in Eric shuff size
when it turns forty. Yeah, there you go.

Speaker 3 (59:22):
Well, ill, you know, there's there's a rumor floating around
and you'll and I know there's notice is off topic
is that Rob Bandam will be back in time from
Bownce for Glory, which coincidentally is supposedly the night that
they're gonna end the tournament and crown their new champion.
So if you can explain that to me. I'd love
to hear it.

Speaker 2 (59:40):
Yeah, and then you know, sort of set up the well,
here's the new champion versus the old champion, and here's
our match. You know. So I understand it, But wasn't
necessary to go this route to get there?

Speaker 12 (59:54):
No, it wasn't.

Speaker 2 (59:57):
Let's go ahead and grab another phone call. Let's go
where do we go? Let's go to the eight three
to oh Erey code eight three oh. Welcome to the show.
Please say your name where you're from?

Speaker 5 (01:00:06):
Hey, this is a Jack from Texas.

Speaker 2 (01:00:10):
About you Jack?

Speaker 3 (01:00:12):
Oh?

Speaker 2 (01:00:12):
Hey.

Speaker 6 (01:00:13):
I was wondering when.

Speaker 4 (01:00:15):
Is Sam Punk going to be done with this straight
out of society nonsense and go on to chase the
world title again.

Speaker 3 (01:00:23):
Probably when his arm was one hundred percent healed.

Speaker 2 (01:00:27):
I hope that soon. Yeah. The SEC the SEC SCS bit,
I mean, they're they're kind of shifting into a singular
feud with Punk and Big Show. But it is Forest.
I mean, I don't think it's helping Big Show. I'm
out in side. I don't think it's helping Punk, And
I think that main event needs a little bit of

(01:00:47):
a boost. You have you basically have four guys in
the main event on Smackdowns, and everybody else is on
the mid card and with no sign of elevating past
that point. I mean, you have Jackson Bagger and Big Show,
you have Undertaker and Kine Raymond Sterial likely taking some
time off in the near future, so it's kind of

(01:01:07):
you're trading out ray and bringing in Taker. Everybody else
is kind of right below that level, and I think
Punk needs to be rotated back in when he's healthy,
and I hope that. I hope they've kind of blow
off SCS and Mix Show pretty soon. I think it's
what we saw on Summersland that you know, it's an
okay TV feud, but it doesn't have much juice to it.

(01:01:30):
It's especially when when Joey and Luke really aren't presented
as big deals, so it kind of drags down seem
Punk at this point.

Speaker 3 (01:01:38):
Well, since the Undertaker doesn't really work house shows, somebody
has to be moved up on the SmackDown side. My
you know, if I had to pick out of what
they have, I would pick Kobe Kingston because he just, yeah,
he is probably the the uh it's probably the most
sover and and he's got some talent and then he's
a fresh face and I think, uh, I think people

(01:01:58):
will buy into him. Yeah yeah. But other than that,
they they haven't done a lot to build up the
next five or six guys that can that can move
up the ladder.

Speaker 2 (01:02:11):
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 8 (01:02:17):
I'm Chris Maitland and I'm Justin McClellans. We host Wrestling
Coast to Coast, where we scour the wrestling scene to
find the best wrestling from the smallest places.

Speaker 13 (01:02:25):
There are thousands of matches happening every week, so Wrestling
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Speaker 8 (01:02:33):
There are plenty of podcasts to voters to w W
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Speaker 13 (01:02:40):
We can't wait to help you find the true hidden
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Speaker 8 (01:02:46):
And justin bemoaning dog pole fins.

Speaker 13 (01:02:48):
Don't forget my fetal search to see a blue thunderbomb
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Speaker 8 (01:02:52):
How can I like? The name? Says, We cover the
hottest independent promotions from around the country, so such as
Prestige Action, West Coast Pro, and Beyond Wrestling.

Speaker 13 (01:03:01):
Actually, Chris, I think we stick pretty much to wrestling.

Speaker 8 (01:03:04):
No, I mean Beyond Wrestling out of Wooster, Oh right.
Our show's part of the PW Torch Daily Cast lineup
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Speaker 2 (01:03:30):
Jack any other question or follow up?

Speaker 5 (01:03:33):
Uh no, just thanks for taking my call.

Speaker 2 (01:03:36):
All right, we appreciate that call. Uh patted down the
last two minutes or so of the show. We've got
time for a couple more callers. If you're listening to
us and you want to jump on the phone lines
get a quick question in The number to call is
six four, six, seven, nine eight eight. Again plugging what
we have on the Towards VIP website, we have audio

(01:03:56):
updates yesterday's TB Torch live cast, the VIP After Show
with Wad Keller and Jason Powell. Again. The Torch newsletter
is online for Towards VIP subscribers. All the good info,
Summer Slam columns, news notes and analysis, Jason Powell's backstage
scoops from Pro Wrestling dot Net, as well as Pat

(01:04:17):
you have a roundtable on SummerSlam and this week's Torts newsletter,
as well as most of the p tw B Torch staff.
So all that good information. If you're not a Towards
VIP member, go to pw Torch dot com slash go
vip to get subscription information accessing of course, the Torch
VP after show that we do Tuesday through Friday and

(01:04:37):
some Mondays on pdb torch dot com. Pat, you and
I are gonna be around for the after show listener mail.
We're gonna tap into the mail bag and look at
what the Torch VIP members have for you and I
on this week's show. So looking forward to that in
the after show.

Speaker 3 (01:04:53):
All right, we'll do this next week.

Speaker 2 (01:04:56):
We sure we actually have we have about a minute
le after we have one more call. We had a
all are jumping away in a second. Let's go ahead
and get one more call in from the two oh
three area code. Two o three. Welcome to the show.
If we fitch it into where you're from.

Speaker 3 (01:05:09):
Yeah, how you guys doing. This is Mark from Connecticut.

Speaker 2 (01:05:12):
Sixty second, How you doing? What do you have for socks?

Speaker 6 (01:05:14):
Last?

Speaker 2 (01:05:14):
Mark?

Speaker 3 (01:05:15):
Not too much?

Speaker 9 (01:05:16):
How you guys doing?

Speaker 2 (01:05:18):
Just pretty much making a comment.

Speaker 10 (01:05:20):
There's been obviously some talk on this blog talk radio
with you guys about Ring of Honor, and uh, you know,
I totally endorse Ring of Honor. I go to a
ton of the shows and uh, pretty much being in Connecticut,
I you know, used to go to the New Jersey area, Pilly,
you know when it was in Connecticut. Definitely Manhattan, but

(01:05:40):
definitely a great product.

Speaker 2 (01:05:41):
People should check it out. Okay, there you go a
plug for for r o H. There website ars Wrestling
dot COM's going to check out an alternative products. I think,
you know, Pat and I will we review their shows.
They put on a high quality of wrestling that's different
than sort, as Jim Cornet would say, your corporate wrestle.
So that's kind of what you're in. Second, there the

(01:06:03):
info is there on the it's gonna be re refurbished
early trust in dot com. Now do it for us
day in the live cast towards VAPPY members stick around
the after show. All right, Pat, we're now in the

(01:06:30):
VIP after show portion of the show. Let's go ahead
and grab the listener mail bag and vappy members. Now,
first today, let's start it up.

Speaker 3 (01:06:38):
Pat all right, Well, first I have to say this,
this show is a Cathy writed production of TDH communication
that hasn't tended solely for the private use of our audience.
Every rebroadcast, whether he use of this podcast up the
express written consent of Wade Keller or Major League Baseball
is strictly prohibito. There you go, there's a mail bag.
Let's start off with Notorious nine to ten. I believe

(01:07:00):
he's in Norfolk Rights. Justin Hot Branshaw was an imitation
of Stan Hanson. The Berserker was an imitation of Bruiser
Brody as a Viking. Hul Colgan's Jesse Van Turam. Scott
Skinner imitated Billy Graham. So what would you consider the
most memorable imitation, tribute or blatant ripoff of another wrestler's gimmick?

Speaker 2 (01:07:17):
Uh?

Speaker 3 (01:07:17):
Gee, that's an open ended question.

Speaker 2 (01:07:20):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (01:07:21):
You know, as for memorable in imitations, you I think
you'd have to sort of start with, uh with the
guy who imitated Nature Boye Buddy Rodgers, the guy with
the name of Rick Flair. That that that turned out
pretty well, I think. I think, Yeah, I'm trying to
think of, you know, some good uh, I mean, you know,
the Giant or the Big Show, whatever you want to

(01:07:41):
call him. He started off as a very uh you know,
I guess you'd call it a tribute to Andre the
Giant since they since they presented him as the illegitimate
son of Andrea when he started in w c W.
Let's say, blatant ripoff of another wrestler's gimmick, Well, you
can just look at TNA. They have plenty of blatant
ripoffs of other wrestlers.

Speaker 6 (01:08:00):
Mix some.

Speaker 3 (01:08:04):
Yeah, I don't know if he can and he can
he can, Jamie could probably do a different gimmick every
week if he wanted to. Yeah, I'm trying to think
of let's see, I'm trying to come up with something that,
you know, something that's more memorable or successful than than
the whole Rick Flair thing. I mean, if you want
to go back far enough, there was there was w
CW in two thousand when when uh Vince Russo tried

(01:08:28):
to rip off I'm trying to think of who what
lets me they tried to somebody rip off Lex Luger
and call himself the total package. And and yeah, there
was just there were just a lot of bad ideas
actually in that era of w c.

Speaker 12 (01:08:43):
W S A.

Speaker 2 (01:08:46):
Warrior.

Speaker 3 (01:08:47):
Oh gosh, how could I how could I forget the Renegade? Yeah,
Paul Kelvin was in w CW more less in charge.
He wanted to he wanted to speed with the Ultimate Warrior.
The Ultimate Warrior wouldn't come at that time, so they
invented the Renegade, a guy by the name I think
of Rick Williams who looked a little bit like the
Ultimate Warrior, especially with the long hair on the face paint,

(01:09:09):
but was not the Ultimate Warrior, and and as such
didn't last very long, and I believe eventually committed suicide,
which is a sad ending to that story. Yes, yeah, yeah,
And then the various Sulk Hogan ripoffs over the years,
which you know, I don't think any of them worked
particularly well. And you could argue that Jack Swagger is

(01:09:29):
a is a memorable imitation of kurd Angle at the moment,
I don't know you you got anything else? TA even
had Hector Guerrero pretending to be Eddie Guro for a while.

Speaker 2 (01:09:40):
But that's true. That is true. Hello, you could say patacifically,
you could say John Cena is ripoff and fulk Hogan.
Yeah that rot.

Speaker 3 (01:09:56):
Yeah maybe, but not exactly. Yeah, that's that. Yeah, that's
not that's not quite it. Johnny b Bad was a
rip off of Little Richard if you want to go
back that far, do you have to explain to fans
who Little Richard was because.

Speaker 2 (01:10:13):
It was is that?

Speaker 7 (01:10:14):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (01:10:16):
And yeah, don't uh don't know. Let's stay here. Uh, Okay,
you want to go on to the next question.

Speaker 2 (01:10:23):
Yeah, I agree to some of the mean ones they
jumped out.

Speaker 3 (01:10:26):
Okay, p LB one three nine. First you had the
same question about Cabal that was already asked and answered.
So moving on to the next question.

Speaker 2 (01:10:33):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (01:10:34):
Most people feel that Summerstein was a bit of a letdown,
with Nexus losing and some cheap DQ finishes in general.
Are you pleased with the direction of w W is
going as a whole? H. I am excited with some
of these new stars and types of performers they're bringing
in and was wondering what you thought. I was a
lot more excited about, uh about the direction of w
W seventy two hours ago. I think than I am. Now,

(01:10:57):
you know, they have sort of recognize that they need
new stars. They're just unwilling to to pull the trigger
on them right now. I mean, you know they pulled
the trigger on Seamus uh eight or nine months ago,
and that you know that's actually sort of worked out
for them. I think that they know they need to uh,
the nexus is not all seven of them are not

(01:11:18):
going to work out. I think, yeah, And I don't
like what I hear is coming for for Wade Barrett
because he is definitely not going to be protected very well.
He wasn't protected at SummerSlam. I like their direction better
than TNA's that, you know. I'm I mean, they they
you know, they at least seem to know who their best,

(01:11:38):
their best and most popular guys are and try to
work work toward it. You know, ask me again and
in four months when Triple H comes back, how I
feel about the direction of w W and and we'll
talk about it. Then what do you think, James?

Speaker 2 (01:11:50):
Yeah, that's a good point. It's kind of a waiting
game for I mean, sup Point's got lingering there is
when is he coming back? Everybody thought perhaps you know everybody,
but you know, some people have thought that you'd be
the seventh guy. Then they come over and take over
the show and then becomes a triple Ah show if
he chases the title and Seamus, I mean, I agree
with you, Patt. I was a little bit more confident

(01:12:12):
in the direction of the main storyline before SummerSlam than
I am now. I want, you know, I want to
give it some time and you know, see if this
is a slight dip or if it's a cause for concern. Obviously,
next week's show we kind of already know what's gonna happen.
Obviously it's not heavy on NXT singles matches, which could

(01:12:32):
be a good or a bad thing based on the law.
So you know, it's kind of one of the things
where you see where our potential destination is bragging rights,
possibly a Nexus versus w W rematch. Maybe Nexus gets
the you know, kind of gets to the big win
in match too, uh, and then you go to Hell

(01:12:52):
in the Cell. Perhaps you do a War Games, maybe
you go to Survivor series and and you know, maybe
Survivor series is where they kind of blow it all
off with if you're eliminated you're gone either, you know,
they can even do it. If you're eliminated from the
match on ww E side, then you're gone from rob
Brand and really kind of raise the stakes, you know it.

(01:13:13):
Let's say Nexus loses. If their team loses, they're disbanded
for good. If they win, they stick around. But if
you're eliminated from that individually, then perhaps their kickoff of
the the squad kind a kind of an abstract booking,
just kind of throwing that out there, but there are
ways to stretch this out and really get some good

(01:13:35):
TV out of it. And my confident that they're going
to not as confident as I was before Summer Slams and.

Speaker 3 (01:13:43):
I mean, yeah, yeah, their direction, you know, for the
next few months of Lace probably their direction is built
around Johnsen, and I have no problem with seeing it
being the top guy. I think that some you know,
sometimes they they just sort of lose their sense of
how to have how book him and keep him over.
I mean, I I think that, you know, I think
you can have seen him be a top guy without

(01:14:06):
having you know, it be ridiculous, like you know, like
the finish of the main event of SummerSlam. I mean,
you know, I mean, he's a guy who who will
win pretty much all the time if the match is fair.
You know, he can't always you know, he's not always triumphant,
but he'll he'll fight, you know, he'll fight against overwhelming
odds and that sort of thing.

Speaker 12 (01:14:26):
You know.

Speaker 3 (01:14:26):
I feel comfortable comfortable when they're doing that than whether
they're presenting presenting him as invincible.

Speaker 2 (01:14:32):
Because right, yeah, I mean it's a bit overdone, it
really is. And I know, I don't know how much
of a percentage of the audience they're gonna lose because
it's not credible, uh with a sort of Superman comebacks, And.

Speaker 3 (01:14:47):
I don't know, I don't know. I think, you know,
I mean if they do lose audience, and it will
be out of the you know, out of well, I
think people, I think people do show up ATTEV shows
to hate John Cena. I mean that's you know what
you want?

Speaker 1 (01:15:02):
Yeah, all right, Yes, anytime you're watching ww E Raw
or SmackDown or AEW Dynamite in particular, send us an
email if you've got thoughts on the show or a
topic you want us to address or a question for us.
Wade Keller Podcast at PW Torch dot com, Wadkeller Podcast

(01:15:22):
at pewtorch dot com. If there's anything else going on
in pro wrestling that you want us to address on
our main podcast during our mailbank segments, that same email
applies Wadekeller Podcast at pw torch dot com. We invite
that interaction. Let us know what you think of what
we're saying, and let us know what you want us
to talk about and ask us specific questions. Wadekeller Podcast

(01:15:42):
at pw torch dot com.

Speaker 3 (01:15:46):
Our next question, Dave Poortibo writes, it's Paton James. We
heard Wade and Brews talking about their top ten or
fifteen ECW stars. So I was wondering, who are the
top five stars of WCW and who is in the
broader argument and I mean strictly w CW and not
the nw A. Okay, if you're talking w W, I
think you're talking. I want to say nineteen nineteen ninety

(01:16:09):
to two thousand and one.

Speaker 2 (01:16:10):
Yeah, yeah, that's what I was thinking.

Speaker 3 (01:16:13):
So you're looking at You're looking at Sting because he
was all over the Yeah, he was a headliner for
for Big Chunks of the time there and Drew Money.
You're looking at Rick Flair. You're looking at Hulk Hogan
because you kind of he was, you know, he was
on top during a good chunk of the Monday Night Wars,
let's see. And that's and this is where it gets

(01:16:33):
difficult because you're choosing from a whole bunch of guys.
There's there's Randy Savage, and there's a Data, and there's
Lex Luger. And yeah, I mean, I guess you could
say Ron Simmons. I probably probably wouldn't trying to think
of who else would would sort of fit into that
into that category.

Speaker 2 (01:16:53):
Did you mention Vader? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:16:55):
I did.

Speaker 2 (01:16:55):
Yeah, Okay, I'm look but he's taught.

Speaker 3 (01:17:00):
Yeah, yeah he was. Yeah, I mean he well, you know,
he he feuded with Sting for a long time, and
he feuded with with old Cogan and they were about
to have him fuded with Flair until you know, until
he uh got sex. That's saying yeah, I mean he was, Yeah,
he was in some big matches. Let's say here, I'm

(01:17:22):
I'm trying to think that does I mean, if you know,
I might just go Hogan, Flair, Sting, Savage, Invader and
be done with it.

Speaker 2 (01:17:31):
And where do you think Goldberg fits in there.

Speaker 3 (01:17:34):
Goldberg was on top for what a year? I mean
that's basically yeah, yeah, I mean he was basically on
top for a year, and they they didn't use him
the right way at all. I mean he's I don't
know if he's if he's top five, you know, just
based on the amount of time he was in he's
definitely worth mentioning. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:17:51):
Yeah, I mean it's the thing of you look at
longevity and you know throughout and they really are. They
are two very distinct eras in W CW in that
time period.

Speaker 14 (01:18:02):
So do you look at the you know, who was
there for most of that or do you look at
who was there for uh, you know, the big the
big surge in the mid nineties, And well, you know, obviously.

Speaker 3 (01:18:13):
You know, obviously you want both. You want somebody who
was on top for a good chunk of time and
somebody who was you know, who had a had a
run where they were around for you know, a good
chunk of that decade. So but yeah, those are I mean,
those are the guys I'm thinking of, and Luger and Goldberg.
Maybe they are a step below Scott Steiner who had
a who had sort of a run there near the end.

(01:18:34):
He is, you know, he he is a step below
Diamond Dallas Page. He was never he was never a
top star I thought.

Speaker 5 (01:18:40):
I mean he was, you know, he he.

Speaker 3 (01:18:42):
Definitely overachieved a lot when he was in w CW,
But I never thought of him as a you know,
one of the top top guys.

Speaker 2 (01:18:49):
Hall of Nash. I mean, if you look at them collectively,
where do they fit.

Speaker 3 (01:18:53):
Well, you know, Nash booked a Nash main event in
some pay per views. Haul and Nash, I mean they
were I mean they were a tag team act. They
were they were cool and hit them all that they
you know, they never had great matches, and you start
looking at uh, I mean Nash had more main events
than Hall that obviously, Nash main event did uh Nash

(01:19:16):
Maine event at Stark ninety eight, which was probably the
only major show I ever walked out on before the
finish it was it was, uh, it was not good.
And then Nash had they had the feud with Hulk
Cogan in nineteen ninety nine over the title. Eventually, and yeah,
I mean, I I don't think he's top five.

Speaker 2 (01:19:37):
He didn't.

Speaker 3 (01:19:37):
I mean I think showed me where, show me where
he uh showed me where he drew a pay for
you by rate on his own. I think Goldberg versus
nash was in Golder versus National start at the beginning,
at the end.

Speaker 2 (01:19:49):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Goldberg streak is what Pimmins drew that.

Speaker 3 (01:19:54):
I mean, I mean Hall of Nashville contributing factors that
they you know, there was never a point where they
they were the two top guys, you know, yeah, right
wrong on the round and Lucas the same way.

Speaker 2 (01:20:05):
Yeah, yeah, I'd say, you know, if I were to
give Mike tun F, I'm probably not the same. I
think Flair obviously staying you know Vader, you know, Vader
wasn't around in the mid nineties, but you know in
the early nineties that w sud He didn't exactly set

(01:20:26):
the world on fire, you know, but he was, you know,
he was an integral part of that era. And you know,
it didn't draw very well. And I remember there was
what it was a fall Brawl ninety three I want
to say it was here in Houston and that yeah,
that was Houston, Yeah, yeah, I think it was ninety four.

(01:20:46):
There was ninety three, yeah, and they they ran the
Reliance Arena next to the Astrodome and about three thousand
people for a major pay per view.

Speaker 3 (01:20:58):
So that yeah, that was possibly the worst. That was
the worst war games ever until Vince Russo got all
the war games.

Speaker 8 (01:21:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:21:09):
I didn't go to that, but I know people that did,
and they echo your sentiments bad. I mean I went
to the Ashtros game. The definitely the Padres of the
Sunday Afternoon. I still remember this, uh, because they actually
advertised it at the Astro during the Astros game to say,
fall broad next door at seven o'clock, that'd be SEBBI
rustling and they still drew three thousand people. Of course,

(01:21:29):
the Astros weren't drawing anything either, so.

Speaker 3 (01:21:31):
That could have had something to do with it. Yeah,
I might have it. Yeah, Okay, next question, this is
a longer one. Wayne and James were talking about making
WW more matches more exciting by having some matches and
then shorter than expected times. I like this idea that
came up with a different way of doing it. Following
with the UFC example, why doesn't WW make submission moves

(01:21:52):
absolutely deadly? I if you get locked in one and
you're not by the ropes, you would likely tap out.
This way, you can end matches sud lane realistically without
having mana matters to finishers or moves that they'd easily
kick out of when it's say full length or pay
for the match. In general, I like the idea that Yeah,
I mean, I mean, I think you got to implement
it on TV where instead of having the match with

(01:22:13):
the normal and flow, one guy hits the hits the
submission and the other guy has to tap it with Yeah,
I mean, I I like that. In general, I don't
think WW is more excited about getting submission moves over
as killer because they you know, in their pay per views,
they they don't want to have John Cena tapped to
them tap to a submission, and they want to have
them struggle dramatically for a couple of minutes in the

(01:22:36):
hole and then get.

Speaker 7 (01:22:36):
To the ropes.

Speaker 3 (01:22:37):
And the same for Edge or or you know, whoever
your top guy is. But I mean, I like the
you know, you can use that idea on episodes of
Raw or smack Down and instead of having the the
the three minute match that has booked like a full
length match, you have the three minute match, then's out
of nowhere with the submission.

Speaker 2 (01:22:54):
I'm okay with that Yeah, yeah, I agree with that,
and you know, it's kind of as a form for
for some you know, that sort of abstract thinking of
what we might do. And it's kind of funny that
we got to reader and ask that question just kind
of randomly thought this week, you know, what if somebody
didn't all submissions Russian promotion? And obviously there's a lot

(01:23:14):
of restrictions on you know, how do you book to
cover some guy who you know, let's say two guys
who are both pretty over. You don't want something like
you said, Pat, you don't want John Tena to tap out,
So how do you work around that? That's a restriction
to work around. But you know, it's kind of tossed
around the idea of what if you add an all
submissions promotion where the only way to win a match

(01:23:37):
was via submission. I don't know what it was, something
something triggered it. I don't know if it was something
I thought raw during a match or during a NXT
last night. I don't know what I had this thought.
That's part of the problem. But you know it was
something we're in the very beginning of those matches on TV.
It was somebody went for an early submission, and it

(01:23:58):
seemed like if they did that at or at least
they got over the idea that somebody could be submitted
very early in the match. It would get over the
idea that a match could end in the first three
minutes and be credible, and the audience would be more
engaged in the early portion in the match rather than
just sitting there and waiting for the finish. Yes, So,

(01:24:18):
I don't know, that's just sort of a random thought
of the week. Is what in all submissions or I mean,
I guess heavy I don't know, heavily based submissions promotion.
I don't know how you would distinguish, well, this one's
a submission match, this one's not. But I don't know,
I think that would help get over wrestling matches as

(01:24:41):
more than just a means to the end of a storyline,
you know, trying to get over this sort of not
wrestling based storyline on that, you know, kind of TNA's
formula where the postmatch is more important than the actual match.
But I don't know, I don't know what I would
do with that, but I just want to put that
out there.

Speaker 15 (01:24:59):
So I'm Kelly Wells, host of p w T Talks NXT,
the longest running NXT podcast anywhere. Join me along with
Nate Lindberg, Bruce Lee, Hazelwood, and special guests, live every
Tuesday night, just minutes after NXT, where we cover the good,

(01:25:19):
the bad, and the ugly on the way to becoming
a star in WWE. Check us out live on YouTube
or stream later wherever you get your podcast.

Speaker 3 (01:25:34):
Okay, now the horse head, We're moving on to our
next letter rider Afron. Efron rides after some making fun
of weight in the vikings, which.

Speaker 6 (01:25:42):
Is always nice.

Speaker 3 (01:25:43):
I enjoyed that. Affron asks, how do you fix some
bragging rights? Because it's on against the Viking Packers game?
Because you missed that, James, And even if it wasn't,
it's still it's still not the greatest show concept. Let's see,
do you stack the show to your teaser turn of
someone like Triple A. Do you offer a thirty dollars
discount if or do you offer a promotional item like

(01:26:04):
the WrestleMania chair or do you cut your losses and
make the pay per view in your house caliber fixing
bragging rights? I don't know that's a I mean, obviously,
you know, James, you can't do the seven on seven
Raw Versus Snackdown match again this year because you just
you know, you've just put a cap on seven on
seven matches for for a good chunk of tunk of

(01:26:26):
ton after the SummerSlam. So let's say fixing bragging Lights.
I don't know, maybe you could have the Let's say,
maybe you could have a whole series of Raw versus
Snackdown matches and the winner of the Raw versus Snackdown match,
and whichever Brandon wins, say, it's the best of seven.
They it's like the.

Speaker 4 (01:26:46):
All Star Game.

Speaker 3 (01:26:47):
They get to have the main event at WrestleMania be
their match, be their title match. That would be That
would be one way to do it. Teasing the return
of Triple H that or may not work. And I
don't think that. I don't think Triple Triple H is
kind of particular about how he comes back. I don't
think you'd go, yeah, I get to come back at

(01:27:08):
bragging Rights. I think he would detail that and I
wouldn't blame him because I'd probably do the same thing. Uh,
do you offer a discount?

Speaker 12 (01:27:15):
Now?

Speaker 3 (01:27:15):
This is a this is yeah. This guy suggested offering
a ten thirty dollars discount. If you order a three
pay per you isn't once you get ten dollars off
each one. I think I should do that. I think that,
you know, I mean might not that I have it
where wrestle maybe it costs more and then all the
other pay per views cost the same amount. I would
not mind seeing a discount pay per view, you know,

(01:27:36):
just just uh, just once a year. Maybe, so that
that's a that's a strong possibility. Lord, you can make
your pay per view in your house caliber Well, I
maybe you just don't have gimmicks and just have a
series of you know, of matches, or.

Speaker 2 (01:27:50):
Maybe you.

Speaker 3 (01:27:52):
Yeah, I mean that's and that's that's the only thing
I can think of. Or just get rid of the
bragging rights concept and and you know, try to build
the feuds uh naturally, or maybe you just uh or
maybe you have a have a tournament like the King
of the Ring where where somebody's earning themselves a title
shot at Survivor series. I am there's all sort of
different ways you can do it, but I mean you

(01:28:13):
can't sort of fixate on one method of doing it.
You have to you know, like like like Wade and
Jason we're talking about you want a book, so that
it seems that so wet this point, it seems a natural.
You know, it's not natural when you're when you're booking
and you're when you're moving along and suddenly, out of nowhere,
you have to do a pay per view with a
bunch of submission matches.

Speaker 2 (01:28:32):
You know, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 3 (01:28:34):
I don't know, James, what do you think?

Speaker 2 (01:28:36):
Well, I mean, if you look at the timing of it,
the bragging rights fate, what is the bag right October?

Speaker 3 (01:28:42):
That's October twenty fourth.

Speaker 2 (01:28:44):
Yes, okay, so you're you're gonna need a time period
where SmackDown's more emphasized because they're moving to sci fi,
so they might go to the route of Ross SmackDown.
I still think that feels very forced, doesn't feel organic
to kind of do that brand loyalty type thing. It's not.
It's just, you know, you had to be consistent with

(01:29:05):
it throughout the TV year. You have to have I
would say, in n XT, you have to have the
Raw guys and the SmackDown guys, you know, sort of
dropping those hints like, you know, got the Raw pros
gather together and maybe they huddle up and vote and
the SmackDown, guys huddle up and vote and you you
play that up throughout the year. But when they're just
kind of interacting on NXT or on pay per views,

(01:29:28):
you know, Cane and Shamus O just kind of having
a good time backstage, it doesn't really do much for
when you want to sell a pay per view based
on this sort of conflict. So I'm not a favorite
of Robbers SmackDown match. I can very well see them
do a rob versus Nexus match and have that either
que unquote bragging rights match and try to build toward that. That's,

(01:29:51):
you know, one way to go about it. Like you said, Pat,
they could do a King of the Ring tournament. You know,
the tournaments don't always sell well because you're not selling
an individual matchup and you're not giving the audience an
individual matchup to kind of sink their teeth into ahead
of time. So maybe they just do an individual matchup,
you know, how about that or or or Seamus Sena

(01:30:14):
or Jerichosina or uh Edge and Edge and Seaman's Edge
and orton. We've seen We've seen that too many times.
But you know, kind of pick your individual matchup bolted
around that, have Nexus versus uh uh team raw the
your secondary match and have that help sell the pay

(01:30:35):
per view.

Speaker 3 (01:30:37):
Yeah, you know the next pay per view right now,
I don't see it working because you're having the hell
on the sell pay per view on October third, and
if you're buying one w W pay per view that
month and you're thinking, well Helena sell or bragging rights,
you know you're you're gonna take Helen a cell I
think especially Yeah, yeah, I mean so yeah, they might

(01:31:00):
want to. They do not want to rethink that one,
and they could do breaking rights if they spent the
whole I like you said, Ron SmackDown work kept completely
separate for a year. All right, and we have one
more question? All right, the one more Well, I guess
it's one more question from that time. I was watching
footage of Jake Roberts Cobra biting Randy Seventhe on WW Superstars,

(01:31:22):
and for those of you listening at home now, that
happened in I think nineteen ninety one. I remember being
fourteen and freaking out over the side of that. In
your coverage over the years, have you ever had some
moments like that? What other moments in your career have
you shook your head at and said, I can't believe
that just happened. I halloween have it running out of time,
just being unable to show the main events. The one
that springs to mind was, you know, and I mean

(01:31:45):
it's it's cliche, but Mick Foley getting thrown off of
Telemus all with no warning at King of the Ring
nineteen ninety eight. You know, you just go holy, you know,
and then I mean, you know, and you see it
the first time, your first thought is my god, he's dead,
and along the state Lines, I mean, your freak out moment,
you know, over the Edge nineteen ninety nine, when Owen

(01:32:06):
Hart actually died during the show. That was a that
was a pretty big freak out that, you know. I mean,
to this day, it's it's sort of it sort of
dolls the you know, it sort of dolls the edge
out of out of enjoying the out of enjoying the sport,
thinking that, you know, people in the wrestling business who
should know better were stupid enough to send them up
there without all the precautions you needed. I mean, those

(01:32:28):
good those are yeah, I mean yeah, but I mean
if you think about the moments where you know, you
literally couldn't believe what you're seeing. I think you know
the haul Cogan's original heel turn at Dashing the Beach
nineteen ninety six was was. I mean that was that
was a fantastic example of that and even and I
mean you sort of had an idea what was coming,

(01:32:48):
but I mean you still you know you'd never pictured it,
especially if you've never seen Hogan work hell before.

Speaker 1 (01:32:55):
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Speaker 2 (01:33:38):
I guess it's kind of how you define it. Is
it something that shocks you and like you said, I
like a hul Cogan's turning hel way, or is it
something that shocks you and I can't believe they actually
somewhere I looked at and they actually decided to go
through with it. Recent example being the Whole the Hole
in the Ring for T and A, when Desien Wolf

(01:33:59):
and Rick fell into the hole in a ring. Yeah,
my favorite televisions. That's a recent example. I guess I
kind of have to go back. I mean, yeah, the
Rock and Mixed Boley, Uh, the I quit match when
Foley was bashed over the head. What was the official

(01:34:19):
count on that pat when when.

Speaker 3 (01:34:20):
Rock I think I think it was a zillion and
he got a billion times.

Speaker 2 (01:34:24):
With that chair. Yeah, yeah, that's gotta be up there.
Uh in terms of shocking stuff, shocking guy and shot
Master like.

Speaker 3 (01:34:37):
Yeah, well, I mean that counts to I. Yeah, that's
another I can't believe that just happened a moment you
know where I mean, I mean, for you know, for
months afterwards you have you know, in in my group
of friends, when it found somebody who hadn't seen Oh
here we go, let's buck up. The shock Master tape. Yeah,
this was before YouTube obviously.

Speaker 12 (01:34:54):
You know.

Speaker 3 (01:34:57):
If he falls forward and as a little Stormtroopers Star
Wars helmet rolls off, that that was quite a moment. Yeah, yeah,
that's that's why TV for you.

Speaker 2 (01:35:07):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (01:35:07):
The Bobby, Yeah, Bobby Heathen dropping the F bomb at
Class of Champions after Brian Thilman h after Brian Tolman
got too close to him. Yeah, that was that was
one right there.

Speaker 2 (01:35:19):
Yeah. W W had plenty I mean we're gonna we're
in the tipping the iceberg. Yeah, I mean, well, you
can find a YouTube video. I can't believe that just happened.
W SEW moments and and uh, you know, plenty of
plenty of fighting ertain in if you're eaving.

Speaker 3 (01:35:35):
That's a w w w W uncensored nineteen ninety six,
the uh, the infamous Tower of Doom match. Uh, that
was why that was one. And you can go back
and find the backs and that's that's one of those.
I can't believe I just saw that, you know, and
and pretty much, uh I have most uh yeah, most
every time I watched a Ring of Honor or Dragging

(01:35:55):
Gate DVD. There's at least one move on the show.
It's like a blow, you know, you because it was
poorly thought out and the guy nearly killed himself, or
because you know, or because it was something amazing, you know.
I mean there's a lot of those. Oh yeah, elok,
Skipper walked doing the cage walk Rana at that one
TNA pay per meal and it ended up meaning absolutely

(01:36:15):
nothing for his career.

Speaker 2 (01:36:16):
As I recall, it's amazing he brought that up because
I thought about that. I don't know my memory sometimes
I don't remember when I think of things, but I
don't know why. I just thought about that, and I
thought about, Okay, how did he actually do that without
breaking his neck? You know, I was trying to picture it,
you know, did he kind of grab the cage as
he was falling down on the Hurricane Rana? Who do

(01:36:39):
you Hurrican Runna? Was it storm or Harris? I don't
remember which I I honestly.

Speaker 3 (01:36:43):
Don't remember or not one of the game was he
was No, it was there a storm or Harris? Yeah,
it would have to Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:36:49):
Yeah, it's one of those things that how did he
actually pull that off? And like you said, Patt, it
it didn't mean I mean, it lives on as one
of the epic moments in TNA history as long as
the history as has been, but like I said, it
didn't really do much long term a big picture.

Speaker 3 (01:37:06):
Oh and uh, I mean one of the great ECW moments. Uh,
Cactus Jack is fighting the Sandman and Cactus Jack throws
the Sandman into a box at ringside and uh yeah,
and and pulls him back out of the box and
the guy that comes out of the box takes them
uncovers his head and it's not sad Man, it's Terry Funk.
And you can see and if you ever watch that

(01:37:27):
day that was nineteen ninety five, you could literally see,
you know, the individual rows of fans standing up and
just you know, want.

Speaker 2 (01:37:34):
Like a wave.

Speaker 3 (01:37:35):
It just didn't shock at what they're seeing. And yeah,
that was, uh, that was pretty good.

Speaker 12 (01:37:40):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:37:41):
He goes to a lot of these semi moments for
different reasons. It can reminds me of of was it
Taz and Bigelow when they went through the ring the
first time?

Speaker 3 (01:37:51):
Oh yeah, that's there, there you go. That's that's a
good one right.

Speaker 2 (01:37:53):
There, big Shaw brock Lester on SmackDown that was yeah. Yeah,
So the ring collapses. It's only a if you're looking
for you know, kind of going back to you know,
full circle to a call earlier in the show. You know,
what do you end uh? If you're doing seasons, what
you ended on? You know, if you have a champion

(01:38:17):
and a big challenger who's over, and you've been having
this big chase and you're up to the climax of
the match your main e minit climax in the six
months worth of TV, and you do that spot and
the annalysers lay out and the crowd's going nuts and
the referee doesn't know what to do. Both guys are out,
and you go off the air.

Speaker 3 (01:38:38):
So I will throw on one more for you. WrestleMania
nineteen Brock Lesner versus Kurt Angle Block Lesler not only
at tempsty shooting star press for the first time on
a WWE show. He just about misses it and lands
on his head.

Speaker 2 (01:38:55):
Yeah yeah, that's a good one.

Speaker 3 (01:38:59):
Yeah, Okay, I mean we could do this all night,
but you know another deal.

Speaker 2 (01:39:03):
Yeah, LC matches, Yeah, any and you know, any of
those big spots. Yeah, yeah, there you go. I think
we've satisfied the answer our question.

Speaker 8 (01:39:15):
I think so.

Speaker 3 (01:39:16):
Yeah, I certainly hope.

Speaker 2 (01:39:17):
So anything else in the nailback pet that's all right, good,
good thirty minutes and mail bag. I think that's a
fine value for the towards v IPPY members today.

Speaker 3 (01:39:29):
I think that's I think that's the record.

Speaker 2 (01:39:30):
Yeah, yeah, all right, Pat, anything else, any other thoughts
or any other things to bring up before we close?

Speaker 3 (01:39:39):
Good night everybody. We will be back here next week, and.

Speaker 2 (01:39:43):
You know, I hope we'll have some fun.

Speaker 3 (01:39:45):
And if you want to share the WrestleMania eleven round table,
you're gonna have to send emails to Wade Keller or
post any late killer the IDs out there.

Speaker 2 (01:39:53):
You go, there, you go. There're so many elevens, fascinating
speaking of a mo much Bam Bam, biglow and uh
tailor having rusty match. Yeah, yep, all right, Pat, good
talking to you. We will talk again soon for toy Thomas,

(01:40:14):
Pat me Neil. This his Torch assistant editor James Caldwell
signing off.

Speaker 1 (01:40:36):
Invite you to email the show with feedback or questions
or comments. That email address is Wade Keller Podcast at
petewtorch dot com. That's Wade Keller Podcast at PW torch
dot com. Also welcome your feedback on Twitter. You can
follow us on Twitter at pw torch and follow me
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the Wade Keller.

Speaker 16 (01:40:58):
Searching for more great pro wrestling talk, then join me
Jason Powell host them the three weekly Pro Wrestling Boom Podcast.
Each week you'll hear the latest news and analysis from
me and my team at Pro Wrestling dot need along
with other pro wrestling media members. Plus, the Pro Wrestling
Boom Podcast features long form interviews with notable names in
the pro wrestling industry. Subscribe and iTunes, Stitcher, Downcast, and

(01:41:20):
all your favorite secondary apps, or visit us directly at
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Speaker 1 (01:41:29):
Thanks for listening to our podcast. Did you know we
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and my live TV coverage covering Raw, Dynamite and SmackDown
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Create a tab or bookmark make it a daily stop.
Visit us throughout the day every day to keep up
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Speaker 11 (01:41:53):
Meet an extra dose of positivity in your wrestling podcasts,
will come join me Alan fourrel Over in the Progress
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(01:42:13):
for wrestlings past in the Paradise too, and we've done
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was there when shows where our guests will join me
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subscription information and a list of all the VIP benefits
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iPhone and Android devices, or you can stream them directly
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Speaker 1 (01:42:56):
One way that you can help us sustain our schedule
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Speaker 17 (01:43:34):
In twenty twelve, NXT transitioned into the developmental system and
ultimately the brand you see today. On the Torch VIP
podcast NXT eight years Back, we'll be taking a weekly
look at this page in NXT's early history.

Speaker 12 (01:43:49):
Join Kelly Wells and me Tom Stout from PWT Talks
NXT every Saturday as we go eight years back to
the day to track NXT's rising talents and why they
did or didn't work out Exclusively for PW Torch Vip members.

Speaker 1 (01:44:03):
A PW Torch VIP membership doesn't just give you add
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(01:44:25):
wrestling's top newsmakers in the nineties, and also our podcast
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There's no larger, longer spanning pro wrestling podcast library than
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approaching twenty years of podcasting, go vip and dive into
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(01:44:49):
and special format podcasts that we've done throughout the years.
PW torch dot com slash go vip. We have a
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