5 YRS AGO FLAGSHIP: Keller & Radican talk Reigns-Heyman, Keith Lee’s push, New Japan G1, Moxley-MJF, Lesnar’s future, more

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(01:51):
the Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast five years ago. This
week on the Flagship, I was joined by PW Towards
columnist Sean Radikin, and we talked about the new Roman
reigns Paul Hayman Alliance. Boy did we not know how
successful that would be, but we had some early guesses
on where it was going and how it would do. Also,
in New Japan G one Contenders Nowito's double title win

(02:13):
over Evil the John Moxley MJF Build brock Lesner's Future
pros and cons various NXT title match winners, Bigie defending
his comedic presentation now that he's a singles wrestler aw
versus NXT, thus far and more. This originally dropped on
September one, twenty twenty, and it is today's wait Keller
Pro Wrestling podcast Flakeship five years Ago flashback for Tuesday,

(02:37):
September second, twenty twenty five. All right, Sean On, I
think the topic brought up the most on podcasts that
I've posted for the past ten plus years is when
will Blank turn heel? And it was mostly John Cena,
but for a good portion of the time it was

(02:57):
also Roman Reigns. And it appears that we're finally getting
one of those wishes. Roman Reigns showing up last Friday
in a shocker. The camera pan to end all camera
pans with Adam Pierce standing over. Roman Reigns sitting down
in the back, and then he says Paul Haman's catchphrase,
and then the camera pans over and there's Hayman who
says Romans catchphrase and a more healish Roman reigns for

(03:21):
variety of reasons, including opportunistically coming up mid match to
capture the universal title and Paul Haman looking quite satisfied.
I'm intrigued. We don't know what the next chapter is
going to be like on Friday on SmackDown, but with
another aspect of the story, brock Lesner not being under
contract to w Reportedly at this point, Hayman needed something

(03:43):
to do, and this is this would probably be my
number one thing for him to do. What was your
first thought on Friday night? And how optimistic are you
that this could be a spark for Roman Reigns in
WWE to cast him and frame him differently.

Speaker 2 (03:57):
I liked it a lot, just because it's a He's
a character with an edge, and what was going on
seemed so cartoonish when he when he showed up at
the end of Summer Slam and took out Strowman and
the Fiend and you could catch him trash talking the
Fiend and saying all you are is a dummy under
a stupid mask. It was just so refreshing to hear

(04:19):
him say something you know what I mean, edgy air
that a fighter might say, you know before UFC fighter,
anyone really like just any kind of normalcy is nice
when you lookers for you know, an edge to a
character instead of a you know, a character characterture of
a babyface, which he played you know, largely throughout most

(04:40):
of his career, and I really enjoyed that aspect of
it when he showed up. You know, the reveal on
Friday with Hayman was a was a really cool reveal. So,
you know, it's just nice to see them do some
interesting things with this character. And it's just such a
contrast to the you know, the cartoonish stuff that the
fet and very wide I've been doing. It really makes

(05:04):
him stand out to like just injecting him into that
environment with those two.

Speaker 1 (05:09):
You know, I want to talk about Rains more, but
so much of the focus I think is on Roman
reigns naturally, but this also gives us a chance for
one of the you know, all time great managers, you know,
a top five all time manager and just huge personality
with a lot of cachet over the years from ECW
and the phrase of Paul Hayman guy is part of

(05:31):
the lexicon. He represented brock Lesner in one huge main
event after another for the last handful of years, and
now he's got a new guy to play off of.
I felt and I'm curious what you think. I thought
Paul Hayman was kind of go I would say going
through the motions, because I don't think he ever just
goes through the motions, but I think he had less
material to work with, and it was getting tougher and

(05:52):
tougher for him to be as compelling on the microphone
talking about Brock Lesner. It felt a little broken record,
and I just wasn't as interesting, in part because I
think there's some baggage with Lesner being so part time,
so infrequent, and his matches, you know, for a big
part of the fan base, where not matches you looked
forward to because it's going to be this great back
and forth battle. Whether it's a b style main event

(06:15):
or a Nujeman style main event or whatever. You knew
you're getting a Brock Lesner match, and the question was
not how good would it be, but just you know,
is he going to win to lose and how and
how quickly? And you know what kind of story will
they tell. But it took away that it's like watching
a trailer for a movie instead of a movie. With Brock.
You know that you cut right to the chase, but
you didn't get that long, drawn out drama in the

(06:36):
vast majority of his recent matches, So I just felt
like Hayman was exhibiting signs of running out of stuff
for being a little bored. Rains gives Hayman fertile ground
to grow his character, to portray himself differently. I mean,
he's managed so many people over the decades, and he
has so much more that I think he can contribute
on the mic than he did with with Lesner, just

(06:59):
on the Hayman aspect of things. You've watched him pretty
much his entire career. Are you excited about that or
or do you think I'm overstating Hayman's the excitement that
people should have to see a new chapter in Hayman's
on air persona.

Speaker 2 (07:13):
No, I think you should be excited because he had
done the brock Lessner act for so long, and like
you said, there's only so you know, brock Lessons still
a huge draw and paired with Hayman, you know, still
did a lot for the company, but it wasn't fresh,
and there's only so much you can do doing the same,
you know what I mean? Saying the same things about
brock over and over for a different you know, for

(07:34):
a different opponent, it just seemed like it was harder
and harder for Haman to get inspired to cut one
of those great promos. It was feeling a little stale.
I think with Rains there's so many possibilities because it's
someone new. It gives Hayman fresh tons of fresh material.
It also allows him to talk for Rains at times,

(07:55):
and I think that will help Roman a little bit
instead of people always hearing from him, to be hearing
from Hayman, and it's just a I think it's a
really good pairing for the two of them, a fresh direction.

Speaker 1 (08:10):
Well, one of the things, Sean, I'll jump in. One
things about Rains is that when he was in the Shield,
he played off of other people, and when he was
just Roman Rains he rarely did. And Roman reigns solo
reciting lines that aren't really His voice just wasn't ever good.
I mean it was like sometimes it was fair and
sometimes it was bad. But I don't know if I mean,

(08:31):
maybe there's one good promo that Rains cut as a
singles baby Face. I mean, I'm I just I was
perpetually more bad than good. I guess is a good
way to put it well, I would say, way more
bad than good. Yeah, his peak was, you know, on
rare occasion fair, you know, compared to if you're a
top top baby face. I mean one of the big
things that defines a baby face is their go home promo.

(08:53):
Is that that final you know, get get your fan
base excited. And he just it's just not his thing.
He's good a lot of things. That wasn't one of them.
Now he can play off of Hayman and one of
things Roman's good at is playing off of body language
and facial depression wise what someone else is saying, and
I think saying a few words, but having Paul Haman
there to you know, pick up if if Rain's not

(09:15):
loses his train of thought because that's not really his issue.
But when they kind of plot out the promos, there
can be this dynamic where Rains picks his spots and
then hands things back over to Haman. And I hope
they do that.

Speaker 3 (09:26):
I don't.

Speaker 1 (09:26):
I didn't like silent Brock. I liked when Brock talked.
I get why they did did it the way they did,
but I brox an underrated promo. Rains I think can
be really good and people can look up. You know,
he'll promo work in NXT and see that. You know,
there's something in his DNA that that fits a heel
wrestling character, and I've been touting that for years. Is
as a way for him to blossom and become more

(09:47):
valuable to WWE. I think Rain's playing off of Hayman
is an opportunity for Rains to become a better promo.
I hope they don't have Rains go silent and Haman
just does all the talking. Well, Roman just stands. Although
I think Roman will stand there just like Lesnar and
be entertaining with his body language. I think you'll, you know, you'll,
you'll have half an eye on him too.

Speaker 2 (10:07):
Yeah, I think they'll they'll split up the duties and
and play off each other, and I think that'll really,
you know, give both got both of them a fresh dimension,
you know, especially with Rain's playing the character people have
largely wanted for so long and doing it with you know,
the top heel manager and the company moving on from

(10:28):
Lesnar to him. And I think, you know, Rain's has
really good facial expressions. I think this will give him
a chance to showcase them. When you know, Paul Hayman's
doing some of the talking against whomever he's matched you know,
the baby face he's matched up again, So it's a
great opportunity for him to really grow as a character.

(10:49):
It's just, you know, it's it definitely will help him grow.
I just you know, just in the environment they're in.
It's just it'd be nice to have a natural audience
instead of the thunder doom stetting.

Speaker 1 (11:04):
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(11:26):
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The list of possibilities for Rains as a heel is
pretty intriguing. Who jumps out to you as the most

(11:46):
the matchup or the wrestler as a babyface. Assuming Rains
goes full fledged Teal and I mean, you know, there's
still a chance they try to go tweeter with him
or do something different. I'm for him just going all in,
just go all in, Heal. So assuming he does, what
top baby Face matchups with the Superstar shakeup on the
Horizon interests you the most, both full time roster members

(12:07):
and then kind of after you do that, anybody who's
not full time roster member, what you know, because I
mean Rock and Goldber come to mind, but anyone.

Speaker 2 (12:14):
Else, well, the the well, the full time I really
want to see is Drew McIntyre because Drew has been
really good on the mic in this empty Arena era,
and and he's always been good. I'd really like to
see those two matched up. And I'm trying to think
of you know, of course a match up with Brock

(12:36):
with the fresh twist would be cool as well. I
think with Brock, you know, playing the face and Rains
doing the people hate that up, it would just be great,
you know, just the that's a Summer Slam WrestleMania type
of main event, I think, And of course.

Speaker 4 (12:53):
If you could, I would love to see it again.

Speaker 2 (12:55):
See that, you know, the guy who turned risk, the
guy who never you know, if if that's possible, we're
seeing it being part I'm sure it is, but yeah,
you know, that's another WrestleMania Summer Slam caliber main event.
But yeah, I think you know, I'm out of all
the guys, uh, I'd be excited to see him against McIntyre.

Speaker 4 (13:18):
I'm trying to think of the.

Speaker 2 (13:19):
Top ash, you know, just if just uh, you know,
just the.

Speaker 4 (13:25):
McIntire's one that excites me most.

Speaker 2 (13:26):
But I love to see him against guys like you know,
Edge would be fun when he's healthy again, and of
course you know or In at some point too. He's
got so much fresh material. I think you know his characters,
you know, Twist and Turn. There's so many possibilities. But

(13:48):
right now, my my top picture, you know, the Lessener
matchup for a big show, and and McIntyre in the
short term once they do the shakeup.

Speaker 1 (13:58):
Yeah, I also want to seehim make stars. I mean,
that's part of part of what I was he happened.
Matt Riddle and Keith Lee are two new call ups
from NXT. Keith Lee getting a mega push out of
the gate and Matt Riddle a pretty you know it
made a pretty big deal out of acquiring him, and
then you know, there's a little bit of a setback
with some of the personal stuff that came out, which
they oddly drew attention to on Friday, which it wasn't

(14:22):
just odd and counterproductive, but I think tasteless to incorporate,
you know, essentially a rape allegation into a heel promo storyline.
So I don't know who thought that was a decent
idea on just about every level that said, Riddle and
Lee are two babyface acts that I think just in
terms of in the ring, you know, the type of

(14:45):
match they can have, I think it would be really fun.
And and and then you know too with the promos,
you know, Keith Lee still you know, not sure. I'm
still not sure how he's going to work out or
how Vincent Man is going to receive his the way
that the cadence of his promos and the way that
he talks and his promos and it rubs some people
the wrong way. I think it's distinctive and it shouldn't

(15:05):
be thrown out immediately, but you know, he might want
a little more range and changing that up. But I
think a Hayman rains back and Forth could do it.
But Riddle, you know, Hayman playing off of Matt Riddle
and Roman and Rains making facial reactions if they have
you know, a contract signing or some sort of back
and forth, Hayman playing off of Riddle is potential gold.

(15:26):
And so those two jump out to me. And there's
some lower level, lower level battles that can happen too.
I shouldn't say lower level when I say Biggie, but
Biggie's probably the third guy that I would think would
be really good if they build him up, and it
seems like there's you know, possibility based on his trajectory
and how they're pushing him. So those are maybe the
top three. But as a baby face, there's other matchups

(15:48):
that they can do on off pay per views. If
if Rains has a full schedule and does every pay
per view, you know, there's other possibilities out there too,
including you know, Jeff Hardy or Danny Brown is a
baby face against Tell and Range, which people wanted for
a long time. If if Brian comes back and is
able to do that. So I just think there's a
couple of years worth of matchups already shown.

Speaker 2 (16:09):
Yeah, I agree, you know, I'm interested to see it
against Matt Riddle. I don't have a ton of faith
in them following through on Keith Lee, just because of
the history of you know, pushing you know, African American
wrestlers and what Vince has already done with Lee's act,
just you know, having him wear a shirt in the

(16:30):
ring already, doesn't you know, give me a lot of hope.

Speaker 4 (16:33):
But I'm hoping I'm wrong. You know.

Speaker 2 (16:35):
It's just I just see how all the you know,
the African American wrestlers are pushed on raw lately, and
it's just it'd be a big break from the mold
for Lee to be able to break out, and I
hope he does.

Speaker 1 (16:48):
And uh, well, what do you think of Keith Lee?
I mean, talk about his background and what you thought
of him pre NXT and where he is now compared
to what he was projected, what his image was, and
what people projected for him if he ever did get
signed by Dodby.

Speaker 2 (17:03):
Well, I thought he was tremendous on the you know,
in the indies and ring you know, Ring of Honor
and and doing a little time and evolved before getting signed,
and I just didn't think he was gonna, you know
what I mean, get to the rosters quick, just because
of his luck and the way he talks. But I
thought he had a very high end ring ceiling because
he's so exciting to watch because of his size and strength,

(17:25):
and he's got this this natural charisma. If they could
fine tune it, you know what I mean, his promos
and just the way the confidence he carries himself with.
I think if they fine tuned his promos and he
just he really does come across like this, you know,
this smooth talking guy that but when he gets in

(17:45):
the ring, he backs it up, you know, and there's definitely, uh,
you know, gold to be found there with Lee. I
just I'm not sure if if Vince will see it
that way, you know, just with this presentation right now, I.

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Speaker 1 (19:15):
I'll defend Vince McMahon here a little bit. Last week
they weren't prepared, but I think what we saw since
then on Sunday and Mondays is fine, you know, I
mean having I think his ring gearers world's better this
week than last week. And you know, Keith Lee being
in in uh in wrestling trunks and a tight shirt.

(19:37):
I don't think that should be a sign that Vince
doesn't believe in him in fact, I think it's a
sign that you know, you can agree to disagree with
the decision. But Vince thinks he has more potential if
if he's got some covering. I mean, the same decision
was made with Dominic, you know, with a full body
suit too. It's not so.

Speaker 4 (19:50):
I just think he wants him in better shape than
he is, you know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (19:53):
But well, he might need to be too. You know
what I mean, he was.

Speaker 2 (19:57):
You gotta watching him on the indies and what he
can do and the way he can move. I had
zero problems with his you know, is like watching an
NFL lineman, you know what I mean.

Speaker 4 (20:08):
Cabin havoc in the ring.

Speaker 1 (20:09):
That's the thing. But my point is he's not getting
he might need to be in better shae because he's
not getting the work he got once. You know, with
a pandemic, he's not working as frequently, and it doesn't
I mean, if you're not out there hustling on the
endy scene to get live crowd pops, or you're not
working house shows in NXT or wherever, you can fall
out of ring shape. You can lose your timing and
so you know there's going to be scrutiny on him,

(20:31):
and so you know, it's just there are there are
millions and millions and millions of dollars on the line
for his personal bank account to make sure that he
the light sket He's going to be scrutinized because in
part because of how he carries himself. He carries himself
like he's a star, and that might draw a little heat.

Speaker 2 (20:47):
On It's really not fair how you know what I mean,
just how picked apart he's been, you know what I
mean since he debuted, and you know, I'm pointing it
all out, but it is important to point out because
it can just it could turn so quickly in the
b W if Vince doesn't like a certain thing about
you know what I mean, it's it's I mean, I mean,
he should be given time to grow, but he's been

(21:09):
putting this position. So that's that scrutiny is there, and
you just have to wonder, you're hoping, yes, this is
you know what I mean, Yes, he's got to get
in a little better shape, so he's wearing the you know,
he looks better with the covering and so forth. But
I just you know, based on history, I just don't
I temper, my hopes with you know, WWE pushing him

(21:30):
the correct way now. So you know, so far, it's
been awesome, you know, more than more, you know what
I mean, way better than I thought, you know, in
terms of just debuting and and then getting the win
on pay per view. So, I mean, he's off to
a great start and I think he's he's got room
to build. I just I don't want him to get

(21:50):
to the point where they kind of you know what
I mean, where he kind of starts to dwindle down
towards that mid card, you know what I mean, and
they kind of say the kind of forget him as
a top tier player. I just don't want to get
to that point. I don't think it will. I'm not
worried just yet, but I just I feel like they
could lose interest quick, you know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (22:10):
A few ry no, no question, I would say that
we're off to an encouraging start because this is a
big push out of the gate, a win over Randy Orton.
There's a lot of guys on the roster who would
love to have been given that opportunity to have to
get a win over Randy Orton. And so you know,
last week it was basically an a contest, you know.

(22:32):
I mean, yes, he was vulnerable, but you know, Drew
running out there. It was you know, a technically a
dequ finish, but it wasn't a win or a loss
for Orton or Lee. It was just an interference. You know,
Matches called off due to that, and since then he's
been you know, I think what they've done with him
since then shows that they're protecting him. So I just, yeah,
I'm I'm optimistic about just Keith Lee, but I also

(22:56):
want I'm also raising some warning flags that aren't necessarily
defending all of them. But realistically, sometimes you have to
be aware of how others are going to judge you.
And this applies to everybody. The same conversation was had
with Kevin Owens when he's when he got you know,
signed NXT and then when he got called up to
the main roster, and on and on. Daniel Bryan. I mean,

(23:17):
you have to be realistic about the fact that this
is mitsic man, we're talking about, how do you adjust
a little bit? Paul Hyman telling Ken Anderson, you know,
make yourself Kennedy because that'll you know, Vincil like that.
You know. I mean, there's all these games you play
to try to get a push.

Speaker 4 (23:30):
Yeah, and.

Speaker 2 (23:33):
I like how they're protecting him, you know what I mean,
I like how they protected him. You know, he lost
the you know, he he he effectively got the you know,
the winning move even though he didn't win last night
on Raw to advance to you know, and his uh,
you know, he hit his finish on Rollins and then
Orton capitalized and got the cover, so that was a

(23:55):
nice touch. It just just the w WE system of
booking kind of just drives me crazy because there's these
stops and starts the momentum, and that's kind of the
thing that worries me a little bit, is because he
got the win on Orton on the pay per view,
and then Orton gets the title shot at the next
pay per view, and that's the That's the type of
thing that's kind of you know what I mean, how

(24:16):
momentum can naturally build. I just I'm hoping whatever's next
for Lee continues that momentum because it's it's like, you know,
it's it's just this tremendous step forward and then this
little step back, and you know what I mean, it
just does it's not the way if if things were playing,
you know, because they do things so last minute, you

(24:37):
you know what I mean, you're wondering if they're ever
taking a look at the big picture. You know, the
wave Fince makes so many last minute changes, and you
know Lee coming into the picture and getting this big push.
But we're gonna put Orton back against Dr McIntire, so
you know, essentially what they want to do with Lee
gets in the way of that a little bit.

Speaker 4 (24:56):
So how do you keep his you know, how do
you keep how do they keep Keith? These moments ent
them going.

Speaker 1 (25:01):
Maybe maybe a roster switch when there's a shake up,
or you know there's some new talent switches or legos
after Bobby Lashley in the US title, I mean, lastly
got a big one over Apollo Cruz, and I don't
I there's a danger in pushing Lee right to the
world title situation, especially when Drew McIntyre's your champion. So
to me have an excuse for Orton, have Orton earn
his way back to another title shot. Drew already said

(25:22):
he wanted to face him, splitly off into another feud,
give him a US title run or a personal feud,
but then ultimately he ends up being protected and built
up to face Roman reigns. I think that, of course
makes sense.

Speaker 2 (25:35):
Just that that scene, if he drops down to Lashley,
he's one step away from hanging out with all those
guys back, you know what I mean, they all well
who else?

Speaker 1 (25:42):
But who else can he face if not Lastly? Lastly
is like my number three.

Speaker 4 (25:46):
I think it could work. I just you know, I
just it will work.

Speaker 2 (25:51):
I just you know, I just always like, man, how
do they do this and keep it you know, keep
it right?

Speaker 4 (25:58):
You know? And I think if they do, great, We're.

Speaker 1 (26:02):
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as four dollars in ninety nine cents to remove the

(26:22):
ads and plugs through Patreon. Full VIP membership starts at
nine dollars in ninety nine cents. Treat yourself to a
streamlined ad unplug free listening experience with a VIP or
Patreon membership. Another guy who came to mindshean, I want
to get your thoughts because what part of part of

(26:42):
the issue with Lee is ring style and who does
he work best against? And I could see vincecmahn thinking, ooh,
we'll turn bronstroman heel, put him with the fiend, and
then we'll do you know, roster shakeup, and we'll do
Keith Lee against the Fiend, Keith Lee against Bray the
Bray wide character, and Keith Lee against bron Stroman, oh,
all the behemoths. Is that what is that where Lee
shined on the eddy scene? Is that what you see

(27:04):
is the best place for him? Is it a variety
or is leeve or off against opponents like like dol
Ziegler where a guy can just bump like crazy and
create movement for him and and they and you know,
like Seth and Orton, did you know catch him when
he's doing big flying moves as opposed to well, I
guess Braun could catch him if he's springboarding at him too.
But so I talk about Lee's background of good matches,

(27:27):
and it's.

Speaker 2 (27:28):
Funny when you say that you know, working against big men.
He was working against big men who worked like him, you.

Speaker 4 (27:33):
Know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (27:34):
Yeah, so it's really hard to say. You know, if
he wrestles braun Stroman, what's gonna you know what I mean?
Like like Chris Heroes pretty big. I saw them wrestle live,
but you know they did that high you know, they
did a lot of not high flying, but you know,
strong style, fast paced type of you know, not brawling,
but you know, a fast pace of match. And you
know Donovan Dye Jack when he was on the Indies,

(27:56):
he you know, matched up with him a lot.

Speaker 4 (27:59):
Yeah, and you.

Speaker 2 (28:00):
Know Jay Jack or John How do I pronounce Dijacob?
I can never pronounce it, dija Kovic. You know there's
another guy that Lee worked, a bigger man that Lee
was really had great chemistry with. So I think it's
going to be interesting to see the match, you know
what I mean, see how they match up. Yeah, he

(28:21):
matches up with with with brawlers and big guys like
and I think he'll be fine because he's got that
strength where you know he can go with them and
and and be credible. Even though he doesn't have the height,
He's he's still a big dude. So I think I
think he will. I think he can adapt to that style.

(28:42):
But I want to see it because you know, I
really haven't got this. You know, you haven't got this
chance to see him work a Stroman or a Prey
Wyatt type of wrestler very often. But I think he'll
be successful because I just think he's very adaptable as
a wrestler.

Speaker 1 (28:58):
Well what are what are few when he mat which
is that people can hunt down and watch a Lee
pre NXT if they're intrigued with him. Now that he's
in a higher profile position getting off.

Speaker 2 (29:07):
I can't remember the year, but the right before he
got signed, I think it's twenty seventeen, was it?

Speaker 4 (29:13):
I want to say right before, No, it was right
before Dye Jack got signed.

Speaker 2 (29:20):
They had an incredible Battle of Los Angeles match. If
you sign up for the High Spots Wrestling Network you
can watch that. It was many people called it the
match of the year. A couple of years ago. You
know you've seen them pair it off. Di Ja Kovic
and him paired off in NXT. But they had really
good chemistry and they took their feud to evolve and

(29:41):
but PWG it went to a whole new level. They
just had this incredible match and they were just really
like good rivals, you know from ROH and the indies
and so forth, and you know, evolve just you search
Keith Lee or search Bowl and search the last couple
of years and find that match. I think it's on
the first or and I'm pretty sure it's on the
second night of one of the last two or three years.

(30:04):
His stuff and Beyond Wrestling was excellent, and Independent Wrestling
dot TV has beyond resver again. I believe him and
Die Jack had some really matches and Beyond Wrestling him
and Chris Hero too, So look, I would look those up.
I would look up his stuff and Beyond Wrestling as well.
He really made a name when he was not getting

(30:27):
a good He was one of those frustrated Ring of
Honor wrestlers not getting a good push, you know, feeling
kind of undervalued and Ring of Honor, and he had
one of those contracts that Ring of Honor gave at
the time where he could work the indies. He really
got buzz, like, you know, like this guy and Beyond
Wrestling is incredible compared to what he's doing in Ring

(30:47):
of Honor.

Speaker 4 (30:48):
And that's where he really good.

Speaker 2 (30:50):
So if you want to go and look at his
library of work and Beyond Wrestling, it's only nine I
think it's nine to ninety nine a month. Independent Wrestling
dot tv has that library and you could just you know,
go back twenty seventeen or so twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen
and just check out his stuff on the.

Speaker 1 (31:09):
Chris Chris Hero Died Jakovic, who else jumps out as
matches people should look for opponents.

Speaker 4 (31:14):
Baim from NXT.

Speaker 2 (31:16):
They had some really good intergender matches as well in
the indie scene. Just Yim is so good at strong style,
and she had these credible matches with him and Beyond Wrestling,
and those are the other ones that got a lot
of but she was his other opponent that got a
lot of buzz with him, and it was kind of

(31:38):
fun to see them work together because she's always had
the rep is, you know, one of the hardest hitting
female wrestlers on the indies, and that was that was
a treat to watch before both of them kind of
went up not too far apart to n XT.

Speaker 1 (31:53):
Yeah, yep, all right, so let's pause here introduce ourselves.
This is the Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast Day Tuesday
Flagship edition for September first, twoenty twenty on Thursday, the
plan is to do an aw all out preview roundtable,
so we move the usual Thursday flagship as we do
sometimes to Tuesday. Was so much to talk about coming
out of the weekend, with not only the Roman reigns

(32:16):
turn in Universal tie to Win, but also happenings in
New Japan and a variety of things which we'll get
to as Zill progresses here. It's a good time to
have an earlier flagship and so Sean Radikin is the
other voice you hear. I'm Way Keller, host of the program,
of course, Sean Radickin, a longtime Pro Wrestling Torch contributor
and columnist and podcast host. Sean, Welcome to the coast here.

(32:40):
It's been a while anyway.

Speaker 4 (32:42):
How are you doing. Nice to be here, Good to
have you.

Speaker 1 (32:44):
Sean. Tell people about how you got your start with
PW Torch and a little bit about where your focus
is these days.

Speaker 2 (32:52):
I started covering SmackDown in two thousand and three, and
then I transitioned to the covering Ring of Honor for
several years, and I still do cover Ring of Honor,
but right now I'm primarily over the last six or
seven years of transitioned to pretty much focusing you know,
well not String of Honor, but I covered the I

(33:13):
should say I covered the Indies heavily and Ring of
Honor for many years, and the last six or seven
years I've transitioned to because New Japan has risen in popularity, uh,
you know, specializing in New Japan coverage while still you know,
covering the other promotion indie promotions and Ring of Honor.

Speaker 4 (33:32):
But right now the.

Speaker 2 (33:34):
Focus is on you know, New Japan, New Japan coverage
on you know, pay per views, major shows and things
like that.

Speaker 1 (33:43):
Very good. And then also from a podcast standpoint, tell
people what what you do on the VP side, I thinks.

Speaker 2 (33:48):
Well, I do the Erradican Worldwide is my main podcast
that I do with Rich Fan, where we you know,
talk you know, big indie shows, New Japan news, Ring
of Honor news, but usually there's a lot of I
have a couple of new I do the New Japan
pay per view roundtables with the rotating cast of co hosts,

(34:09):
and they also working on finishing up my latest New
Japan Rewind project. We have a New Japan Rewind podcast
looking back at some of the best of New Japan
from the last decade. And right now we're in the
midst of G One Climax twenty three from twenty thirteen,
and we're heading to next show's night five. So my

(34:32):
hope is to try to finish up the last few
nights of that before the g One Climax starts for
VIP members September eighteenth, I think is the first show.

Speaker 1 (34:43):
Tell people how they can follow you on Twitter.

Speaker 2 (34:46):
Oh yes, you follow me at SR Underscore Torch on Twitter,
and if you know, I'm happy to ask you. I'm
telling you happy to answer any questions you have or anything.
And yeah, I'd just like to talk wrestling on Twitter
and help people.

Speaker 4 (35:04):
People always ask.

Speaker 2 (35:04):
Me where to start with New Japan or big independence
like Game changerre wrestling beyond Wrestling, So if you have
any questions, feel free to ask me and follow me
at SR Underscore Torch.

Speaker 1 (35:16):
Excellent. Sounds good. We've got a lot more to talk
about and we'll get to that now.

Speaker 6 (35:23):
Searching for more great pro wrestling talk, then join me.
Jason Powell host them the free weekly Pro Wrestling Boom Podcast.
Each week you'll hear the latest news and analysis from
me and my team at pro Wrestling dot net along
with other pro wrestling media members. Plus, the Pro Wrestling
Boom Podcast features long form interviews with notable names in
the pro wrestling industry. Subscribe and iTunes, Stitcher, Downcast, and

(35:45):
all your favorite secondary apps, or visit us directly at
PW boom dot com.

Speaker 7 (35:50):
Once again, that's pw boom dot com.

Speaker 1 (36:00):
All right, let's uh, let's switch topics here, well sort of,
because we've got an email asking about brock Lesner and
how he fits into all this. Brian h says, with
the news that brock Lesner is now a free agent
and assuming he does not return to w w EE,
which is a better fit for him, a e W
or New Japan, and why boy, what a statement it

(36:22):
would be, Sean if Tony Kahan antied up and got
brock Lesner, I mean, that would send you know, Chris Jericho,
John Moxley, Cody, you know, Okay, you know, then there's
you know, Brodie Lee, Lance Archer for New Japan. You know,
there's been some good signings, you know FTR. But brock

(36:43):
Lesner is next level. It's at the level of Jericho
when Moxley and and because of the shock value of it,
probably a little higher because he just so you know.

Speaker 4 (36:55):
Yeah, maybe the biggest signing ever.

Speaker 1 (36:57):
Yeah, I mean I would say that, like my and Jericho.
It would be an interesting conversation to have because if
you could only have two out of the three, I
think brox and Everyone's two. But if you can only
have one of the three, I should say everyone's most
people's But I think if you only have one of
the three, I bet some people would put Jericho or
Moxie because they'd be available every week, They're more versatile,

(37:19):
they'd be full time, they'd be more easier to work with,
you know, all that stuff. You know, Jericho's not younger,
but he's probably in it. He's probably more invested in it.
So that's an interesting conversation. But nevertheless, just the you know,
the effect that a new company is starting, they have
deep pockets, they sign Moxie and Jericho's big news, but
not a shock Lesnar would create shock waves, so he

(37:40):
would have a tremendous impact there. But do you think
Brock at this point would even want to go to
New Japan? And work the New Japan style at this
stage of his life, would and I think it'd be
great at it, but he might want to dictate the style.
So talk about the pros and cons of both and
where you think it's a better fit for him, all
things considered, I.

Speaker 2 (38:00):
Think AW is a better fit because he could do
a one off there and and you know, not have
to live up to a certain expectation of a main
event match. I don't think I don't think New Japan
would want to do a five to ten minute match
on one of their big shows.

Speaker 4 (38:18):
You know, you know, grudges get held a long time,
and I think he will.

Speaker 2 (38:23):
You know, he left without defending the title, yeah when
he was so I'm not sure how keen they are
on him these days. Yeah, uh, but I could find
out the problem.

Speaker 1 (38:36):
The problem with AW is I don't think Moxie's interested
in having a rematch down that road, and Jericho is
just not a good fit. I mean, they could have
a fun comedy style match or something, but it's you know,
at this stage, you know.

Speaker 4 (38:51):
Would he be you know what I mean?

Speaker 1 (38:53):
Yeah, guys, Yeah, PNA syndrome of guys signing with the
number two company, Big money and then just you know,
his book er t sort of admitted country clubbing it,
you know, for the money mark or whatever.

Speaker 2 (39:06):
Not to say they you know, you know, and I'd
say a W is a country club, but.

Speaker 1 (39:11):
No, I'm saying that's how but that's how big am
wrestlers treat it. That's how they treat a TNA. Lesner
would have the cloud to show up and drive everybody nuts.
The other the other problem is if it's not those
two who I mean Cody and Lesnar would be you know,
huge in the AW context, then to me, that'd be
the match you would do. But otherwise, you know, you're
looking at Brodie Lee, Lance Archer, Brian Cage and their

(39:34):
next level. There's their number. There's second tier guys in
AW compared to Cody, Moxley and Jericho. Kenny Omega would
be right there with Cody, maybe higher than Cody actually,
but I don't say him first because he just hasn't
gotten that kind of a push in a W yet
where I think the AW audience that they've gained in
the last year would look at that as a dream match,
just because Kenny's just been a background guy.

Speaker 2 (39:56):
I mean, let Lesley works best with guys you can throw,
you know what I mean, And I just it's not
a roster wise, it's just not a great matchup given
where they're Aw's bigger talent are situated on the roster currently.

Speaker 4 (40:11):
It's you know, the more you talk.

Speaker 2 (40:12):
About it, the more you know, it makes sense to
me that the only place he goes is you know, WWE,
if he wrestles at all. In terms of a fit
between either one, I mean New Japan, I just you know,
the same thing. And stylistically, I mean, that'd be a
huge departure for what they do. To have someone come

(40:33):
in and you know what I mean, have a five
to ten minute match, it would just be shocking, you know,
a main event five to ten minute match would.

Speaker 4 (40:44):
Just be yeah, be a shock. You know.

Speaker 2 (40:47):
I'm trying to think of stylistically, ol Kata, that would
that would be really interesting, that that would that that
would peauk my interest.

Speaker 1 (41:00):
Well rattle off, Okay, here's my w top five Kenny
Cody Archer, Brodie Lee And if I got I'm trying
to think of, I'm forgetting somebody. Yeah, I just like
I'm hesitant to say that because yeah, well because they're

(41:22):
just there's heat there, you know. Yeah, I just don't
think this is Moxley's sandbox and have Lesner come in
and start dictating to him. I just think it would
blow up behind the scenes, unless, unless you know, they
had it, unless they were able to talk it out.
But I just don't I mean, I interviewed Moxley about it,
and I talked to him about Lesner, and there's I
think there's a level of resentment there where Moxley would
there'd be chips on both their shoulders and it would work.

(41:43):
So my top five sort of, I mean, i'd say
Moxley's number five, but it's with all those this gigantic
asterisk if I don't know if personality can work out.
Who's your new japan top five?

Speaker 2 (41:54):
Okada? I'd love to seeing work Okada, just stylistically. I'm
trying to think after Okada their upper echelon of wrestlers.
Bushie would be number two, of course, that that would
be something I think, just because of the way a

(42:16):
Boushie could bump for him.

Speaker 4 (42:18):
Uh, Jay White number three.

Speaker 2 (42:20):
I don't like the size mac the way White works
as a heel, you know what I mean, he just
les there wouldn't do the you know, the heel manager
up distracting him to allow you know what, I mean,
to allow uh White to get the upper hand stylistically
the way.

Speaker 4 (42:37):
But I'd still put him number three.

Speaker 2 (42:39):
I think, I don't know, I might even uh, I'm
trying to think, you know, uh probably yeah, I guess
you know that would be three. Evil would probably be well, no,

(42:59):
butt night nao three. He could bump for him too,
that would work, But stylistically it's not a I'll probably
say that caveat every time, so I'm gonna stop repeating myself.

Speaker 1 (43:12):
Yeah, well, who's the star? Who's the star? In New Japan?
It could get elevated, I J. White could get elevated. Yeah,
with a competitive match with Brock. Would a would a boosh?
Would a boshy be a good fit for doing that?

Speaker 4 (43:24):
Yeah, but he doesn't need to be elevated, you know.

Speaker 1 (43:27):
That's a yeah, that's a good point. That's probably not
the right category. But is he a good fit for Lesner?
Well that said, I mean, he doesn't need to be elevated,
but want a legendary match against Lesner take him into
uh the stratosphere. That it just is because I don't
think he's at the top, top top tier of New
Japan legends and in a feud, in a victory over Lesner.

Speaker 4 (43:49):
Yeah, it would help. It would help him in that
would add.

Speaker 1 (43:50):
To that resume in that way.

Speaker 2 (43:52):
Uh, his longevity is gonna I mean, his just you know,
him doing him on his journey is going to do
that over time. But a match with Lesner would certainly
accelerate that. And I like that matchup just because of
how athletic he is and how hard hitting he is,
and you know what, you know, especially if Lesnar, you know,

(44:13):
sells his striking, it would really make for it.

Speaker 4 (44:17):
Like not necessarily that it, you know, just that it's
putting some dents in his armor. You know, as the
match goes on.

Speaker 1 (44:24):
Just the body language, facial expressions. I can imagine the
pre match, the postmatch presser, the pre match hy I.
You know, I think there's a story to tell, there.

Speaker 2 (44:33):
Be a tremendous match. Uh, it's hard for me to
think that it might be. It's hard to it's almost
too hard to definitively say between Okada and Abusi. You know,
I think Abshi might be the better match, actually, but
it's hard to say. That with what Okada pulls out.

Speaker 4 (44:54):
Regularly. But I just.

Speaker 2 (44:57):
Yeah, so I think we got kind of Nato three
White four, And you know, Evil would really benefit from
working with him too. I think as a fifth, you know,
I think just the style. You know, if you cut
it off at five, Evil's are much stronger five than

(45:18):
you know, the Moxley on the A W side, So
I think that'd be a you know, if they were able.

Speaker 4 (45:23):
To use him regularly for long term, it would.

Speaker 2 (45:27):
It's there are you know, a few good fits, even
though Evil's down there because of star power, just stylistically wise,
it I don't know, just seeing him, you know, Lesnar
is just a monster of a man too. You know
Evil as a brawler, but he's not you know what
I mean, he just does not have that visually. It's

(45:49):
it would be an interesting you know, with the fans
buy into. I think that probably the New Japan fans would,
but it'd be a very interesting matchup just because Listener
is just such a big man, yes, compared to Evil.

Speaker 1 (46:13):
You don't have to wait for the way Keller Pro
Wrestling post show to find out what I thought of
Monday Night Raw and SmackDown each week. You can check
out my reports that are updated live throughout Raw and
SmackDown at pwtorch dot com. My written report will tell
you what's happening in detail in case you missed the show,
and it will also analyze key segments and give my
random thoughts quips on what I am watching as it airs.

(46:35):
So check it out every Monday night and Tuesday night
at pewtorch dot com. That also applies to wwepayperviews. I
cover those live at pw torch dot com with a
detailed written report with star ratings. And of course you
can find other TV reports from other contributors to pw
torch such as nxt roh, Impact Wrestling and more. Check
it out pwtorch dot com your first stop for TV

(46:58):
and pay per view written reports. John, Let's actually talk
some more new Japan we just did as a release
to brock Lessner. Let's talk about the g one and

(47:19):
coming up in Wrestle Kingdom and its ramifications. You had
a cover story in last week's Porsing Torture newsletter. The
headline was Who's on the short list to headline Wrestle
Kingdom and you've got your top four some names we
just talked about and coming on the heels of this
weekend's title change, the summer struggle, the August twenty ninth

(47:41):
show where we had the titles change. We just talked
about Evil a minute ago. But Nao winning both belts
your thoughts on does that change at all any of
anything you wrote in your column last week? And then
talk about who the g one winners you think are?
Who are how how deep is a list of potential

(48:02):
g one winners? And are you changing any any of
your predictions based on what happened this weekend?

Speaker 2 (48:07):
No, I mean what what I thought was going to happen.
You know, sometimes Gaeto doesn't follow the path, but when
it makes the most sense, he usually does. So I
was kind of, you know, seventy five percent sure it
was going to be a title switch. Yeah, that's about
as confident as you can be with New Japan. You know,
usually they follow the formula, but you know, yeah, that's

(48:31):
why I thought was going to happen. I thought, Naito
is gonna overcome Bullet Club, and he did. He got
help from his L I J stablemates, which was nice
for a change, instead of him just getting you know,
one Bullet Club member after another, just liberally interfering in
the match with though with the help. I know that's

(48:55):
it's part of the storyline that they don't help each
other out unless they you know, Nito never lots help,
but so it has to be his stablemates feeling compelled
to come help him out. So it did get to
that level last Sunday and NATO one, and it just
cemented what I thought was gonna app The only surprise
I thought maybe Jay White would show up in some

(49:17):
form to uh to launch an angle tohead into G one,
but uh uh, he'd never showed up on Sunday. That
was the only thing that didn't happen I thought was
gonna happen, perhaps because I had heard, you know, restrictions
were easy. But uh, I still expect him back for
I'd be really surprised if he wasn't back for G one.

(49:40):
But yeah, I just it cements that I think NATO
is gonna have a deep run in the Turn G
one tournament starting in a few weeks, you know, and
they'll be able to with a shorter timeline than usual,
you know, get through the G one. You know, NATO
will against a couple of people that I have to see.

(50:01):
You know, we haven't seen the blocks yet, so we
don't know who's a candidate for him to defend his
title against before wrestling Kingdom.

Speaker 4 (50:10):
But uh, you know, I think he's a strong candidate.
You know, he could win it.

Speaker 2 (50:14):
You know, I don't think that will happen, but it's
a shallow list of candidates, I think unless something changes
in the booking leading into Jue one, which which would
surprise me, I just think it's it's a it's a
Boushie or Jay White challenging.

Speaker 4 (50:33):
For the title.

Speaker 2 (50:36):
I was not thrilled with Okada's kingd of Pro Wrestling
concept debut, which basically boiled into down to a raw
comedy match with Yano winning for the first time. Yeah,
and I was like, really this is it's like everyone's
worst fear multiplied by nothing against Yano but the very

(50:59):
first champion, you know, winning with a low blow and.

Speaker 1 (51:04):
Give a little background on that and how that came about.

Speaker 2 (51:08):
All right, So they teased in promos that Ocada's attention
ahead of this pay per view and ahead of a
press conference you know, you know, once they relaunched, they
teased that Ocada's attention wasn't on the IC or iw
GP heavyweight titles. He had other intentions. So then they
did a press conference where o'cada announced that he was
involved in the formation of a new championship and they

(51:31):
were going to hold a tournament at the Summer Struggle
Tour leading into the pay per view last weekend. And uh, basically,
the fans the wrestlers in every match in the tournament
for the the King of Pro Wrestling got to put
up stipulations and the fans voted on them, and then

(51:52):
they wrestled the qualifying matches and o'cada asked for a
one on three match against a Bullet Club and so forth,
you know, each match, and because the finals were a
four way, that was the stipulation because it was already
an unusual new Japan match, so they said, this last
match already has a stipulation, so there's not going to
be fan voting now going forward, the provision the winner

(52:16):
is a provisional champion, so Yano is not the is
a provisional champion right now, I'm assuming this the King
of Pro Wrestling twenty twenty will be defended until Wrestle
Kingdom and then they'll have a final champion for twenty twenty,
and then they'll start a whole new set of provisional
champions for twenty twenty one that will go in you

(52:37):
know throughout the year, people feuding over it. Each you know,
the champion challenger each name of stipulation for their match.

Speaker 4 (52:46):
So that's that's the gist of the.

Speaker 2 (52:48):
King of Pro Wrestling Championship is there's a champion and
a challenger now, and each one will name a stipulation
and then fans will vote on it on the New
Japan site, and then they'll have the matches on the
you know, road to shows or pay per views or
wherever they may have them. I think it's going to
be used to spice up some of the you know,

(53:09):
the house shows, to get people, let's get some attention
on it, you know, during the pandemic and kind of
spices things up. They've been really trying to make their
you know, their non major shows more relevant, so like right.

Speaker 4 (53:22):
Now they're doing it.

Speaker 2 (53:23):
They've set up a Junior World Tag League for the
vacant iw GP Junior Haryweight Championships, So they've done a
lot of little things to put some of their not
you know, not their major titles, but to make those
shows interesting. Now, so this King of Pro Wrestling title
could be part of that. But basically, you know what
it all boils down to is Ocad's attention is on it,

(53:46):
and his stablemate Yano One's with the low Blow and
he's looking, you know like Oka did not look pleased
with the circumstances of how match with the Low Blow,
and o'caon didn't look please But my major point was
that I think Okatt is going to be well, the
major point I'm trying to get to is that Oka
is going to be having attention on his King of

(54:07):
Pro Wrestling Championship and he's not going to win g
I don't see him winning G one. I see him
being highly competitive, but I see him being in the
the King of I see him establishing that King of
Pro Wrestling Championship and carrying it, you know, eventually getting
it off of somebody, whether it Beiano or someone else

(54:28):
in the coming months, and that being you know, one
of the three top matches is going to be Okada
match centered around the King of Pro Wrestling Championship to
because I think he wants to establish that title. That's
my that's my guess, but after what they did last week,
I just, you know, I just.

Speaker 4 (54:48):
Is that what he wants to be.

Speaker 2 (54:49):
Associated Like the start to that was, you know, the
establishing the title was not a good start if you
want people to take it seriously.

Speaker 8 (55:04):
I'm Chris Maitland and I'm Justin McClelland we host Wrestling
Coast to Coast, where we scour the wrestling scene to
find the best wrestling from the smallest places. There are
thousands of matches happening every week, so Wrestling Coast to
Coast is here to discover the men and women who
could be big time stars in a few years.

Speaker 9 (55:20):
There are plenty of podcasts to voters at w W
and AW, but what's happening in the armories and gymnasiums
local wrestling hotspots around the country.

Speaker 8 (55:28):
We can't wait to help you find the true hidden
gems of the wrestling world. Plus, you can hear Chris
complain about bad referees.

Speaker 9 (55:34):
And justin bemoaning dog pole fins.

Speaker 8 (55:36):
Don't forget my feudal search to see a blue Thunderbomb
win a match.

Speaker 4 (55:39):
How can I like?

Speaker 9 (55:40):
The name says we cover the hottest independent promotion from
around the country, so such as Prestige Action, West Coast Pro, Revolver,
and Beyond Wrestling.

Speaker 8 (55:49):
Actually, Chris, I think we stick pretty much to wrestling.

Speaker 1 (55:51):
No, I mean Beyond Wrestling out of Worcester, Oh right.

Speaker 9 (55:54):
Our show's part of the PW Torch Daily Cast lineup
and typically drops on Thursdays. Search PW Torch r p
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Speaker 10 (56:12):
M H.

Speaker 1 (56:22):
What what is what is your grade for Gato's booking
this this year and and what are some differences in
surprises compared to past trends you talk about? You know,
there's there's a ratio predictability down predictability to what he does.
What what surprised you? And how do you grade the
choices he's.

Speaker 2 (56:40):
Made, you know, B plus a minus. It's been really good,
you know what I mean. I like what he's done.
He's kind of uh, you know, the evil thing, you know,
evil winning that tightly kind of. It was a bit
of a surprise at Dominion and the heel turn, even
though it was planned for a long time. You know,

(57:01):
it's something he's had an idea to do. I thought
he did really well with it and executed it well.
And you know, just I really liked the heel chair
and I liked I liked I just like how they
picked up with the you know, they're supposed to go
to the New Japan Cup next, so they truncated things.
They they kind of just you know, breezed, they truncated everything.

(57:22):
They didn't do it best of super Juniors, but they
it seems like they really with the with some of
their key talents unavailable to them, like Kent and Jay
White and and guys like that and and many others.
He's done a really good job of picking up the
pieces and and and and moving forward. And you know,

(57:44):
I've talked about Rich with this, about this on Radic
and worldwide.

Speaker 4 (57:48):
Just it felt like.

Speaker 2 (57:51):
The time off gave him top like like a chance
to focus on everything. Like titles that were forgettable suddenly
became important, like the world tag titles. You've had Hiroshi,
tana Hashi, and Koda Abushi feuding with Suzuki guns, Zach,
Saber Junior and tai Chi over the tag titles. The
last couple of months, the Never open Weight Championship, you know,

(58:15):
kind of getting back to what it was supposed to be,
which was you know, defending against all comers from different
weight classes. Shino Takagi did a good job, you know,
fighting heavyweights and junior heavyweights since capturing the belt, and
so I think they've really done a good job of
making things interesting, like making everything interesting for people to watch,

(58:39):
where somebody you know, in the past, like if you
saw the tag title.

Speaker 4 (58:43):
Match, you're like, this is skippable. If it was a
never you know, a never.

Speaker 2 (58:47):
Match might be good, but the belt never meant anything.
But yet with Shingo carrying it, he just carries himself
like such a bad you know, just a bad ass
that you know, they became memorable because as he started,
you know, he called out Minora Suzuki setting up their
match at the pay per view last weekend. So a

(59:07):
lot of the stuff that didn't have meaning before had
meaning in terms of titles, and then they elevated people
like you know, like evil when you weren't expecting it.
But then even when they do unexpected things, they kind
of get back on track to where you think they're
gonna go. So, I mean, if you think about who
they're gonna headline with, it's it's you know, Wrestled Kingdom.

(59:29):
It's gonna be a some mix of Okada and Aito
and in Aboushi and Jay White at the top of
the car, you know, I mean matches at the top
of the cards. So it seems like they got back
there last weekend. And yeah, but I think I think
he's done a really good job with a limited roster,
and I've just enjoyed it. A lot of it makes sense,

(59:52):
it's logical, and it builds and especially you know, I
just I was just impressed because he could get by
with your the main event scene being good and you know,
the undercar could just be average, and all people will
remember is that, you know what I mean, the top
players and acts and maybe the junior heavyweights have a
really good match or a tag you know, junior tag

(01:00:13):
titles shine out.

Speaker 4 (01:00:15):
And but He's really.

Speaker 2 (01:00:19):
There hasn't been a lot of it hasn't felt you
know what I mean, Like it hasn't felt like there's
there's a ton of filler on these shows, is what
I'm trying to get at. You know, usually there's a
good amount of skippable stuff on some of the pay
per views and so forth. But he's really done a
good job of you know, he's kind of shortened the
card actually, and you know, six seven matches now and

(01:00:41):
it's kind of really the pacing has been really refreshing,
you know, faster shows and just everything, you know, having
meaning just about it's it's it's it's been good. It's
been you know, a little it's been a nice departure
from the usual New Japan formula, you know, coming back
out of the pandemic a little fresh.

Speaker 4 (01:01:01):
I give them credit for that.

Speaker 1 (01:01:05):
Anytime you're watching WWE Raw or SmackDown or aw Dynamite
in particular, send us an email if you've got thoughts
on the show, or a topic you want us to address,
or a question for us. Wadekeller Podcast at pwtorch dot com,
Wadkeller Podcast at pewtorch dot com. If there's anything else
going on in pro wrestling that you want us to
address on our main podcast during our Mailbank segments, that

(01:01:28):
same email applies Wadekeller Podcast at pwtorch dot com. We
invite that interaction. Let us know what you think of
what we're saying and let us know what you want
us to talk about and ask us specific questions. Wadkeller
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Speaker 11 (01:01:41):
Dot com aw all out the bill to MJF and
John Moxley as a headline has been I think polarizing
two degree in terms of the approach that MGF has
taken a special Todd Martin on the Fixed saying, you know,

(01:02:02):
mgf's turned more into hockey talk man than Roddy Piper
during these During the hype leading up to this, how
do you think Moxley and MGF have fared.

Speaker 1 (01:02:11):
MGF is sort of the one guiding the way for
the tone of the hype and Moxley responding to it
both remotely with tape promos and then in the ring
with MGF last week.

Speaker 2 (01:02:23):
I just haven't liked the political satire style promos.

Speaker 4 (01:02:28):
I mean, I thought so.

Speaker 2 (01:02:29):
The first one was pretty good, but it got kind
of old after that. And the one thing I have
liked is Moxley's response to him and his shenanigans, you know,
keeping one step ahead of him a little bit, out
smarting him in some instances, but don't I don't really
think this is where MJF shines playing this, you know
what I mean, this presidential parody type of character, you know,

(01:02:54):
you know, you know, fighting for change with Moxley on top.
It just it just doesn't feel like, you know what
I mean, who he was before this feud with Moxley,
the way he feuded with Cody and you know what
I mean and others, he was just a you know,
despicable heel that got the deck stacked in his favor
and that formula really works with him, and he's such

(01:03:14):
a good talker.

Speaker 4 (01:03:17):
I don't hate it.

Speaker 2 (01:03:17):
I just think this, I just think letting him do
what he does is enough without the without the over
the tops. I mean, it's so extra right now that
it's it's almost cartoonish.

Speaker 1 (01:03:30):
What do you think of how Moxley has overall been
portrayed by a e W. How do you grade him?
I mean to just overall, and then when you look
at all out being kind of their signature show, is
there somebody else who jumps out that you think would
have been a better a better match that aw got
ready for Moxley? Because when you know, a year ago,
if you would have said, oh, Kenny won't be in
any made events, but MG F will be headlining their

(01:03:51):
marquee show. You know, you'd kind of tilt your head
and go, really so, yeah, just kind of kind of
talk about the big pick sure of Moxley and maybe
what you would have liked to have seen as an
alternate to this is their signature headline match on their
signature pay per view.

Speaker 10 (01:04:07):
Brad.

Speaker 4 (01:04:08):
I like what they've done with him lately.

Speaker 2 (01:04:09):
I think it's been really hard because I think a
lot of his act is his give and take with
the crowd and how they respond to his actions.

Speaker 4 (01:04:19):
When especially when he out smarts the heel.

Speaker 2 (01:04:22):
I think it's a lot of fun to see the
crowd come alive for that type, you know what I mean,
just see like the crowd react. I mean, this is
something that's affecting everybody. But I think at the same time,
since they you know, they.

Speaker 4 (01:04:37):
Had more fans last week, I thought that was a
little bit.

Speaker 2 (01:04:39):
More fun where he outsmart at them during the contry,
you know, MJF and his crew during the contract signing.

Speaker 4 (01:04:47):
I think that was more than Moxley.

Speaker 2 (01:04:48):
I like, like the heel that's not the I mean,
the face that's not stupid, you know, when he's dealing
with conniving heels. I really like how he you know,
how he comes across in those situations and and kind
of pulled the rabbit out of his hat at the
end to surprise them.

Speaker 4 (01:05:04):
But I don't think it's been the.

Speaker 2 (01:05:05):
Greatest material for him to work with. I like him
with a bit more of a serious presentation against the heel.
It just you know, you can't help but it's just
too cartoony with MJF. And you think that's why I
was saying, I don't mind necessarily mind so much that
it's MJF he's in the match with, but it's why

(01:05:26):
are they making MJF into a cartoon type of heel?

Speaker 4 (01:05:31):
You know, just week by week he becomes.

Speaker 2 (01:05:34):
It feels like, you know, the Mizz and his heyday
on SmackDown or.

Speaker 4 (01:05:39):
Something, or don't I don't know an example.

Speaker 1 (01:05:42):
The miscomparisons, the miscomparisons were always on the verge of happening,
you know, with with his character, and you know you
would aim the aim was, you know, go higher than that.
Have a little bit of a little bit of Roddy Piper,
a little bit of Chris Jericho. Guys who really sustain
themselves as credible main event heels, and you know, he

(01:06:03):
shouldn't be a derivative of anybody, you know, and he's
even said that in his promost. I think kind of
in reaction, reacting to some of the categorizing or comparison
of him. But it's I don't have problem with the
political campaign stuff. I just think, you know, if atobody
wants to take that approach where a heel who's bombastic
and wants to be the center of attention wants to

(01:06:23):
play off of the current season as opposed to the alternatives,
which is just more kind of straightforward, you know, I
insult you, I want to be champion type stuff. I think,
I'm Jeff, We're going to find out in the long
run it is going to try to find things to do,
as Jericho has done over the years that are kind
of theme oriented and and make that his thing. Now,
maybe they'll be pushed back on this and he'll he'll

(01:06:43):
deviate away from that. I don't think there should be
a rule against on a weekly TV series a heel
doing a spoof making himself a political candidate and acting
like a jerk to his staff and having political signs
and making it seem like he would be a gift
to a w to be the face of the company
compared to Moxley, and that he's sort of campaigning for
that as long as he's you know, sort of self

(01:07:06):
aware of what he's doing in the context of it,
which I think his character is. You know, it's it's
playing mind games and try to mess with people's mess
with people's heads and get under Moxley's skin. I think
it's fair game. I just I just didn't think his
character was quite ready for this yet. You know, I
think he should have been winning big matches and looking
you know, credible and vicious and tough doing it. And

(01:07:28):
I think his character, kind of like Miz, is a
little too soft around the edges. Despite you know, he
would point to his undefeated record or you know, the
one taglass or whatever, but I just don't think he
had signature wins to build him up to seem like
a credible opponent to Moxley, who could be perceived as
an actual threat to win the title and be the
centerpiece heel.

Speaker 2 (01:07:46):
No, I agree with everything you said. All him doing
all this as long as he's established some credibility in
the ring is fine, but it just makes him more
cartoonish because he hasn't had those credible you know what
I mean, I mean wins as a heel.

Speaker 4 (01:08:01):
He's just barely escaped.

Speaker 2 (01:08:03):
So it's you know, there's no credibility there in terms
of thinking that if the deck wasn't stacked, you know
what I mean, that he'd he'd beat Moxley. So I
mean that's not my choice for you know, I mean
kind of like their WrestleMania they I mean, they brand
a couple of big shows a year, but you know,
this one's you know, supposed to be the you know
what I mean the show and you know they have

(01:08:25):
the double or nothing in the in the spring, but
you know, just for a show like this, I mean, uh,
I don't have a lot of bad things to say
about a w's booking, but just it's just I just
wish they had given him more of an edge hitting
into this because it's just, uh, it's just made me

(01:08:47):
think that, you know, all Moxley has to do is
not get out Fox to win the match. It's it's
not that MJF is tough enough to to beat him
on his own. I think something I like in wrestling,
and it's like, not only do heels cheat but you
know they're they're credible and you know they could they
could win without cheating, but they cheat anyway to get
an upper you know, the upper hand. So I think

(01:09:10):
establishing that credibility is key for a top tier match,
and like you said, they just they just have not done.
You know, he he his biggest wins, he's he's he's cheated.
You know, he's used, he's stacked the deck in his
favor to win his matches. And yeah, you know he's
not he's not really ever been given a showcase where
he can show how tough.

Speaker 4 (01:09:30):
He is in the ring and that he really is.

Speaker 2 (01:09:32):
He is good that I think he's capable of that too.
So I don't understand the it's not a great matchup
for Moxley in that way, you know, because just the
lack of credibility. You know, you're just wondering, you know,
you're the scale is like you're waiting for you know,

(01:09:53):
fans are going to be waiting for that moment where
MJF tries to capitalize instead of you know, that threat
being there at any time or you know, when he
gets the upper hand that hey, this guy can finish
him off at any moment. It couldn't It doesn't have
to be the slip of a banana peel.

Speaker 1 (01:10:07):
You know, yeah, totally. Are you a fan of AW
looking to sit back, relax and listen to some like
minded podcasters who share your passion.

Speaker 12 (01:10:24):
Do you want to be topped off the ledge after
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they thinking? Do you want to join a discussion on
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to improve?

Speaker 1 (01:10:34):
Then join me Joel.

Speaker 12 (01:10:36):
And me Greg for the All of the Conversation Club
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Speaker 1 (01:11:08):
How do you feel about the Jericho Orige Cassidy feud
is and and just how they're utilizing Orange Cassidy and
in a way where as opposed to being a sidekick
for a mid car tag team, he's in a top
arguably a top three match at their signature pay per
view against you know, one of their top paid stars
and probably the most recognizable name on the roster.

Speaker 2 (01:11:27):
Yeah, I mean, I like it. He's just so popular.
He showed great fire.

Speaker 4 (01:11:31):
I liked him.

Speaker 2 (01:11:32):
I've liked how he's feuded with Jericho, and they've they've
just nicely moved it along from week to week with
the with the uh the Orange bath and then the
you know they Cassidy Way in the rubber match, not
the rubber match, the second match and leading to this one.

Speaker 4 (01:11:54):
And he's just so.

Speaker 2 (01:11:55):
Popular and you never thought, you never really thought his
act would car. I didn't think it would transition to
the you know what I mean, to the to a
stage like you know, National TV, TN, you know, TNT,
so to speak. But it really, I mean, he's just
he's so popular, and he's kind of turned it up
in the ring a little bit. And I think that's

(01:12:16):
helped too. When it's time to get serious, he's not,
you know, doing the whole you know, half asleep wrestling
act that he did on the Independence for most of
the time.

Speaker 1 (01:12:28):
That would have been somewhat limiting, you know what I mean. Like,
I think he would have needed to go beyond oh,
let's go to the indie show and sit with you know,
three four hundred people and watch Orange Cassidy do his
bit on sort of a variety of show of different
different indie acts. And that's a blast, and that works
when you're part of a weekly series and you're there,
you build to a big pay per view match you
would be against top guys, and to be against the

(01:12:50):
top guy, the high end of Orange Cassidy as a
character and a worker involves having a wider range to
his character than necessarily you would do if you were
kind of a traveling gimmick ticket seller on the indie scene.
I think is that right to say, you know, what
you need to be on the indie scene might might
be different than what what you need to be in
a national cable company.

Speaker 4 (01:13:09):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:13:09):
I mean, if you're doing an act like this that's
very popular on the indies, that's fine, you know, because
he could go everywhere and do his act and be.

Speaker 4 (01:13:18):
Popular and.

Speaker 2 (01:13:20):
But uh, it really is, you know, just it really
was a matter of churning it up for national TV
and they and he's done that, and it's been it's
been surprising, you know, because they out of all the
indie guys, he's really panned out the best for them
so far, which I wouldn't have counted on, you know,
when they started signing people.

Speaker 1 (01:13:41):
What what is his what is his max upside?

Speaker 4 (01:13:46):
I think just like tip top of the upper tier.

Speaker 1 (01:13:50):
So you think he could be a babyface opponent to
Heel Kenny Omega or he'll can he be world champion?

Speaker 4 (01:14:01):
Oh boy?

Speaker 2 (01:14:04):
I have a hard time buying that unless they really
overhaul this character. I mean, it's all about where they
go with him as it currently is. He can be
a pest to you know what, I mean, a baby
face pest, and he can be capable of out foxing them.
But I think right now I think he's kind of

(01:14:25):
reached his ceiling with how far it could go with
you know, just this feud with Jericho. I mean, that's
about as good as this character can do.

Speaker 1 (01:14:34):
That's what I think. Yeah, that's the thing. Like I mean,
having him be North American Champion, if he's if he's
somebody who wants eats Brody Lee and maybe they're setting
up something like that, you know, post all out Orange
Cash against Brody Lee for the North American title. I
like that. Yeah, what am I thinking? Jess? Thank you title?

(01:14:55):
Big news folks. Uh yeah, I think that that that
works for me, you know, and I think that's the
level that you kind of want to keep him on.
And I think people will be engaged in whatever he does.
But I don't know that. I think you start to
get some pushback and you'll just be pushing other people
out of the way if you try to go further
with his character. And I don't think it's a particularly
controversial stance. I'm just sort of because he's against Jericho

(01:15:18):
and it's like this top three for match on their
signature pay per view, it does bring up the question of,
you know, how far can he go and is there
a limit? And I think for his act and who
he is, But we'll see, but I think there is
a limit.

Speaker 2 (01:15:30):
It can certainly, you know that TNT title picture. You
can certainly be a factor, you know, and maybe visit
the main events scene occasionally that But I don't see him.
I don't know, I just don't see it. The act
is constituted. It's just not a money, you know, just

(01:15:50):
a what you know, money act. I don't think long
term without you know, without Jericho, they're playing off him.

Speaker 1 (01:16:00):
What do you think of the Mimosa Mayhem gimmick. You've
got Orange Cassidy with you know, orange juice being a theme,
freshly squeezed all that, and then you got Jericho with
a bubbly you know. I mean it sort of rights itself,
you know. I sort of, oh, you know, uh, sarcastically said,
it's a genius idea mixing, mixing the two gimmicks. But
it does sort of feel like it had to be done.

(01:16:22):
But it sort of felt like, if you're gonna have
Jericho with the character he plays and Cassie with character
he plays, have a match, you know it's going to
cross their mind. Hey, together, we're a mimosa. Let's uh,
you know, how do we turn that into a gimmick?
I mean, you can't let that escape a creative meeting
without at least some discussion. I'm totally fine with it.
If AW had a different approach to booking Jericho and

(01:16:44):
they didn't have a character like Orange Cassidy getting pushed
as hard as he is, then I'd say, well, that's
just silly and doesn't fit. But the reality is, it
fits the tone that Tony Kahn and company have decided
to take with their booking, and it's silly. I mean,
it's it's it's just silly, But I don't think it's
silly in a way that that has a net negative
effect on the company or the buy rate to all out.

Speaker 2 (01:17:05):
Right, it's it just fits the feud. It's a nice
second fiddle and it's you know, it's I just think
it's fine for the feud they're doing it. I think
it's kind of a one time thing. And it's the
fans will you know, it's.

Speaker 4 (01:17:20):
Something people like that'll but it's just.

Speaker 2 (01:17:27):
I think it's a one time thing in terms of
his Orange Cassie's character getting this kind of interest.

Speaker 1 (01:17:34):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, what else stands out on the show.
We're gonna do a full preview on the Way Color
Pressing podcast on Thursday. That's the plan, So we'll run
down the whole card then, and we'll also have Wednesday
night show too to help steer us in terms of
our analysis. But if you picked one other match that
that intrigues you the most, is a Casino battle Royal
the Kenny and Page against FTR Karashet against the Arosa,

(01:17:58):
the uh Matt sam Me of oar match, Like what
what what intrigues you the most?

Speaker 4 (01:18:03):
Oh?

Speaker 2 (01:18:03):
The tag match you know, just to see where where
where are they going without in Paige after you know,
he got kicked the Elite, you know, and there's been
so many reasons for his character to act the way
he is because the Young Bucks and Kenny have done
you know, you know, people have done stuff that you
know would make someone angry as this, you know, this

(01:18:27):
drama in the Elite has played out over the past
year almost and I'm just interested to see, you know,
what happens. Does he does he turn on Omega? Do
they do they keep fighting together and win this match?
I don't know, but it just feels like it's time
for something to happen. But I mean it just said,

(01:18:48):
it feels like the what the Young Bucks did is
a signal of something's gonna happen in this match, and
I'm really interested to see, you know, do we finally
get Kenny and and Paige and singles matches? And now
that Kenny has worked with Page for so long, and
you know, he's he's back on track. You know, he
didn't get off to a great start in aw but
now now out of Pages on track, and you know,

(01:19:11):
we could get a really good uh match between those
two at the last show of the year would be
my preference just to see you know, those guys in
the single scene because I think, you know, there are
two really good acts. Pages rehabilitated, you know, and seeing

(01:19:31):
Omegan the singles matches appealing to after all these months,
and tag matches, So that's definitely the other match I
had my eye on.

Speaker 4 (01:19:39):
I mean, I like a.

Speaker 2 (01:19:40):
Lot of the card, but I'm really interested to see,
you know, what's the next chapter between omegaan Page and
and and where it goes from there.

Speaker 1 (01:19:52):
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All right, let's shift to NXT. Now we're at a
disadvantage the timing of recording the Tuesday Flagship this week

(01:21:00):
and NXT being on Wednesday. It means most people listening
to this will have already seen the Tuesday TNA show,
the hour long iron Man match. That said, we can
pre analyze it for post show analysis, if that makes sense, Sean,
And we have contenders here, Thin ballor Tomaso Champa, Adam Cole,

(01:21:21):
Johnny Gargano. Who do you want to win? Who do
you hope tonight you see win that match and make
your case for why that's the right decision.

Speaker 2 (01:21:29):
I don't know, I just just trying to think of
who's who is to be the freshest face.

Speaker 1 (01:21:35):
Well, yeah, I'll jump in and you just a little
bit here, because I'll throw some thoughts out for you
to kind of react to. Okay, Yeah, I like Tomaso Champa.
I'd like to see Champa because I think with the
way that this match came about and Karen Cross's injury,
you got to shake It really does shake up the

(01:21:58):
direction because you'll be out for you know, for a
while now. And Champa is a guy who just I
don't think was on a set course and had setbacks,
and if he became Champion, I think that there's more
stories you can tell with that. I think if Finn
Balor wins, he's my second choice because he's a big name.
I think it brings some eyeballs to the product and
I think he can be sort of the standard bearer

(01:22:18):
of the rest of the year for that brand and
have really good main events. But Champ, I feel his
character needs a victory, and I think they put a
new spin on his character last week and having him
beat the Champion Cup promos, have a chip on his
shoulder and then face baby Face Adam Cole Challenger, among
other possibilities, intrigues me the most. I think Adam Cole

(01:22:39):
sort of feels like, well, the guy who lost now
just has the belt again, and the guy, you know,
the champ who beat the guy who beat him is
injured and that's the only reason Cole has it. I
think you run into that storyline with him if you
do that, so I want to avoid that. And then
gar Gatto, I just I think his character's been a

(01:22:59):
little too you know, comedic, and he's been there and
he's good, but I just think he's a second third
from the top wrestler right now who needs to take
a break from being the top guy. So that's kind
of my case. I mean, I think they're four really
good candidates, and so I'm not I think they can
make the best of make a good situation out of

(01:23:19):
any of them. But to me and Adam Cole, facing
Champa with Cole in a baby face position champion in
the O position is fresh to me intrigues me, and
that's the argument I would make. But you know, it
defines down fin Baler a little bit if he keeps
hanging out at NXT and doesn't end up being the centerpiece.
And so I think if he has a nice reiin him,
losing it to someone would then have an impact. So

(01:23:42):
part of me makes a case for him, but it's
still second to Champa. So those are my thoughts. What
do you say to that.

Speaker 2 (01:23:49):
I kind of agree with you, you know, kind of
what I was thinking was, you know, either ballor does
something you know what I mean interesting, or Champa holds
the title as a heel and does something against you know,
Adam Cole. Those are my two thoughts in terms of
the most intriguing possibilities here. So I think the post
intriguing thing is his chant Ampa right now, just to

(01:24:12):
see how he would do, because to see him in
that role against that Adam Cole, especially as a face.
They need to do something with Finn balas soon. I
feel like, I mean, it doesn't have to be this week,
but it just feels like he's too big of a
star to just not be, you know what I mean,
prominently featured and as as a threat on this roster.

(01:24:35):
You know, since he's since he dropped down, he's just
he's so good. How can you just continue to blow
him on you know, the not only the main roster
but NXT two. It just I'd like to see them
do something with him because he he would be a
real force in Nature and other wrestling promotions.

Speaker 1 (01:24:56):
Yes, yep, absolutely, how do you grade it? Just kind
of your takeaway from the XTAW battle so far. It's
been a while since I've I've talked to you about that.
What strengths and weaknesses or what surprise what surprised you
about how each brand has been presented in each each
show has been received, and what was once ahead to
add Battle. We've had some weird, weird change ups in

(01:25:16):
that lately, but we'll get back to that in a
few weeks. On a consistent basis, I assume unless someone
throws as a curveball.

Speaker 2 (01:25:22):
My biggest surprise is that the NXT isn't.

Speaker 4 (01:25:26):
Having a stronger showing in the younger demo. And I
really don't you know what I mean, Yeah, yeah, I
don't get it.

Speaker 2 (01:25:31):
You know, I just don't they have you know, you
would think guys like Ballor and Gagano and Champa and
Godam Cole and and so many others on the roster
would appeal, you know what I mean, Like you have
so many appealing wrestlers.

Speaker 4 (01:25:45):
It's just it's got to be the presentation, you know.
I think.

Speaker 2 (01:25:50):
I think AAW just always seems exciting. They move from
segment to segment the shows, even in a you know
what I mean, even in a empty arena or partially
you know, the wrestler's ringside and now the partial you know,
space socially distance, I don't know. I just feel AW

(01:26:12):
has an energy that NXT can't seem to match, just
in terms of the pacing of the book, the freshness
of the talent, the you know, they just have like this,
like it just comes across as this fresh product, you
know what I mean, that's fresh, exciting and on the
rise product. And even though it's not, I mean, it
was so good earlier, you know, before the pandemic leading

(01:26:35):
into that first pay per view in February, it was
like some of the best build to a pay per
view I've seen in years and years, you know, outside
of maybe you know, New Japan does good build, but
not like TV build, you know what I mean, like
like in the US, And I thought AW just, you know,
they really were so good earlier this year, and they've

(01:26:57):
continued to be good even after. It's just I feel
like Aw's declined a little bit in terms of just
being so compelling, but it's still like they really hit
a high water mark, but and they fall a little bit,
but it's not too far. I'm just I hope it
comes across from trying to say, is it's still awfully good. Yeah,
it just it's just I think with the pandemic just

(01:27:17):
hasn't helped them main you know what I mean, maintain
that energy. But the roster still feels very much energized,
you know.

Speaker 13 (01:27:30):
Longing for some nostalgia or maybe you want to learn
some wrestling history. Don't miss the Nineties Past cast every
Friday on the PW Torch Daily Cast Feed. Alex and
Patrick will transport you thirty years into the past by
taking you through the Torch issue from that very weak
follow news from the WWF and WCW, and all the

(01:27:50):
happenings from across the wrestling industry in real time as
The Torch reported it thirty years ago. That's the nineties
Pass cast every Friday on the PW Torch Daily Cast Feed.

Speaker 1 (01:28:10):
Well, they had the advantage with that, you know, the
big arena. Look, you know, you think about the Caps
Center debut and how over the wrestlers were, and you can't.
It's just it's hard to make a new star when
you don't have crowds reacting to them. And you know,
Thunderdome is an attempt to help. Now, you know, dynamite
selling tickets at Daily's place. I didn't think they did
a great job capturing an increase in energy level on

(01:28:31):
Wednesday compared to where they had been because they sold
wrestlers at ringside and they already had some you know,
VIP type fans in the crowd, so it didn't seem
like this giant leap up or a big change. But
aw had an advantage, and now that advantage is is
it's it's not gone, it's just different. But when you
put orange cassidy out there and the crowd's going absolutely

(01:28:52):
bananas for them to mix fruit, to mix my fruit examples,
they are going absolutely orange for him, you know it.
It makes a difference in how the average fan views
that wrestler versus who's this guy in the company's trying
to tell me he's over same thing for like Drew McIntyre,
Keith Lee, Matt Riddle. You just don't know, you know,
how would Ron's backed on audiences in big arenas be

(01:29:14):
reacting to him. WWE has the advantage of just being
the main brand and they got sort of their built
in audience, but they had the disadvantage of the performance
center just not being nearly as big a big time
in terms of the vibe, it gave off that what
Daily's Place had NXT had a faller couldn't fall as far.
You know, they started from an intimate setting, so they
were just less of a drop off. And that's why

(01:29:35):
I think that they fared pretty well relative to the
other companies in terms of retaining the audience they had,
because the audience they had wasn't watching because of the
gigantic arena, big time feel. They were watching because of
something else, and so that some less got taken away
from the audience they already had. But what do you
think of What if you thought of Thunderdom so far?

Speaker 2 (01:29:56):
I thought it was like really distracting it first, I've
kind of gotten used to it.

Speaker 4 (01:30:01):
It's just weird to me.

Speaker 2 (01:30:02):
They pipe in crowd noise and there's all these people
in the background reacting. It looks like a big zoom meeting,
you know.

Speaker 4 (01:30:10):
And I don't know, I just.

Speaker 2 (01:30:15):
It's I don't know if i'd say I prefer it
to the wrestlers cheering in the background with the big
hockey screens.

Speaker 4 (01:30:22):
Yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:30:25):
Visually, like I was trying to I've been trying to
digest it, like they tried to go for some big
arena spots, like with the Braun and the Fiend at
the pay per view, and I was looking like it
just kind of looks goofy to me, you know, just
just all these people just they got this canned, you know,

(01:30:47):
you know what I mean. It's just I guess it's
it's it's something, but it's just like, I don't know,
it's just I don't like it a lot. It's it's
it's okay, It's it's almost for that almost to the
you know, these NXT trainees and or you know, even
some of the people that actually appear on TV. For

(01:31:08):
them cheering in the crowd. I guess it's good to
have the fans reacting in the background, but it's like
this can reaction mixed in with that.

Speaker 4 (01:31:16):
It's it's it's.

Speaker 1 (01:31:18):
A work in progress. I guess I'm surprised they did.
I wonder if they'll reconsider the hockey boards in the
like in the background, Like I mean, the dome is set,
it's built, it's expensive. They're gonna stick with that in
terms of the video screens, and I think it's a
net gain for me in terms of the atmosphere. I mean,
the dome looks cool, the special effects, the augmented reality,

(01:31:42):
the big stage, the bigger ramp. I think just seeing
fans in the background, you're mostly paying attention to the restlers.
It's mostly wallpaper, but it's a live wallpaper. And it's
of course it's not even close to as good as
having actual fans there.

Speaker 2 (01:31:54):
So better than like the just for comparison, like, yes,
it's better than when I'm watching the NBA, you know,
I mean the hockey they haven't had anything at least,
but the NBA, like they just it doesn't look sharp
at least with WWE like the fans look like they
have a good picture on them in the background.

Speaker 4 (01:32:12):
You know, at least it looks it looks sharp for
them at the end.

Speaker 2 (01:32:15):
I give them credit for, you know, looking better than
the NBA does in terms of trying to mix fans
in because it's just agree it looks a little rent
to me, but it's just you know.

Speaker 4 (01:32:26):
The other thing is they got to police this stuff
that's going on.

Speaker 2 (01:32:29):
You know, they have these you know, these people are
gonna try to get away with stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:32:32):
And although I think people who have tried to get
away with stuff realized there's probably like sixteen people in
the world who are paying attention to them, and they're
gonna just get banned. And and as long as they
would be just no cells it and you know, put
some someone else's face up there, who cares? You know, Like,
I mean, how how if someone wants to do a
hand single or put up a sign, that would be
gonna take them off and for three seconds they got

(01:32:54):
away with something, And it's like, just get a life,
you know.

Speaker 2 (01:32:56):
I mean, yeah, it's the biggest I'm not saying it's
a huge deal. I guess overblow it a little bit,
but it's definitely Visually it's it is impressive. It's just
hard to get you know what I mean. For me,
it was hard to get used to it. At first.
It was incredibly distracting. And yeah, now I think I'm
starting to settle into it. It's not ideal, but it's

(01:33:18):
better than the alternatives.

Speaker 1 (01:33:21):
For them, that's and that's the thing. It's not a
perfect situation. I I give them a really good grade,
but I think it's a work in progress. In terms
of the sound mixing. You know, I think if if
if you expect that, if you if there's energy on
the screens because of something that happened, and people are clapping,
and I think they should encourage them to clap, not
just you know, like do thumbs up or something if
there if you see clapping on the screen and then
they turn up the sound for clapping in the audience,

(01:33:43):
I think they're figuring it out. It's live, it's not
post produced, so it's tougher. And so you know, they
had a New Day, New Day Rocks chant for Biggie,
you know, the other day, and I was like, well, okay,
that that sort of works to me. You just you
want to you want to not notice, and I think
before you noticed there was crowd noise, you notice there
wasn't a crowd. Now what you want is for people
that not notice. And it's the absence of a negative

(01:34:06):
that I think they're going for along with the big
production of ring entrances, and I think they're in a
good spot for that. But bringing the trainees back banging
on hockeyboards off camera, like under the hard camera, just
to create that natural noise in the background in the
app and flow that you kind of got used to
might be something considered or maybe a top row behind
the led screens of socially spaced tested rest trainee wrestlers

(01:34:30):
also reacting to it and creating genuine ebb and flow
noise wise, and then just having people off camera again
sitting behind the hard camera at amway and actually creating
real fan noise. They're not on camera, they're just production people,
staff people whatever. Socially spaced them, but actually have actual
people on set. Even if it's just two dozen people reacting,

(01:34:52):
it can blend in with the noise that's faked and added.
I guess I'm just saying I think there's layers they
can do to piece meal something together that feels a
little more natural, where it just feels like you're watching
do to be without thinking about it.

Speaker 2 (01:35:10):
Yeah, I agree, It's just you know, I think they'll
get there, you know, that fine tuning it. It's it's
been a little rough to start, you know, just the
trims of even piping in the right reaction at the
right time hasn't happened always.

Speaker 4 (01:35:28):
You know, like when Roman came out.

Speaker 2 (01:35:30):
I thought they'd have more of a mixed reaction or
some kind of just sound like can't noise when he
came out at the pay per view.

Speaker 1 (01:35:36):
To me, they gotta be careful with him because you can,
you know, piping noise and people are gonna go. They're
manipulating us to think a certain way.

Speaker 2 (01:35:44):
Yeah, yeah, I don't know, but it would have been
hot though.

Speaker 4 (01:35:50):
I'd have to think in front of a crowd, you.

Speaker 1 (01:35:52):
Know, Oh for sure.

Speaker 4 (01:35:54):
Well I do. It feels. I just want to say it.

Speaker 2 (01:35:59):
It's definite making it easier to watch than it was
before because it read like those empty arena type it
like the Wrestlemanny of this year and the other shows.
And yeah, I'm just glad it's it's it's a step
towards what we're used to at least.

Speaker 1 (01:36:15):
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(01:36:57):
All right, let's wrap up with one email here as
sean about Biggie. I just mentioned him, I wanted to
talk more about him, and I'm glad we got an
email on him. James from Saint Louis says, I wanted
to refer back to your SmackDown posho from last week
and the color asked about a big a bit the
Biggie Miss Talking smack segment. I think there were some
inaccuracies from the callers questions that led to the conversation

(01:37:18):
taking a path it didn't it did where it seemed
to you and Mike were taking it as Biggie complaining
about his own lack of opportunities. He was actually addressing
the fact that Kofe was thrown to the side after
his championship Blosso and then relegated back to tag team
wrestling the next week with no real mention again that
he was there to be champion. So when he referred
to Miss continuing to get opportunities. That's what he was

(01:37:38):
referring to. Kofe was there for eleven years and he
was treated like that. But Mis has been there for
I believe four years at this point. Well at that point,
while everyone knows Mis worked hard to stay where he was,
can we honestly say Kofe didn't do the same. There
are several factors that led to that happening the way
that it did, brock stupid, no more title matches, Saudi shows,
et cetera. But the largest thing was no one believed

(01:37:58):
in him, who had clout. I think miss was speaking
from the unfortunate place of unconscious privilege. I feel like
people use the working hard to get back up the
mountain statement as a way to deflect how wrong they
were they treated him. They could have had another match
similar to the style of Lesnar's matches with styles Brian
and Mystereo. Then missus comment about Biggie was that he
could have done so much more if he could get serious.

(01:38:20):
But Biggie mentioned that he started off being serious and
no one gave it am So why not come out
and be myself and make that work singles or tag?
So my question do you feel so why do you
feel so many people feel like he has to be
super serious and have a great singles run when he
did that before and fans were spotted with chance of boring.
Thanks for work every week and thanks for taking my email,
James from Saint Louis, so some good topics in there.

(01:38:40):
They kind of had a follow up this week on
Talking Smack too. I have been a proponent of Biggie
not being a goof to the point that it's hard
to take him seriously. I do not believe this is
a binary choice. The switch is either on or off.
He's either super serious or humping turnbuckles and gyrating and
making clown faces. I think there's this vast middle ground,

(01:39:02):
and I want him to move more towards a vast
middle ground where it seems like he's not out there
as part of a minstrel show, where he's just there
to entertain the people in the crowd with jovial, happy, happy,
goal lucky mixed with sort of shock value like co
oh my god, I can't believe he did that. I
want to see an athlete who has a bigger opportunity

(01:39:25):
to express that he takes himself seriously. He takes winning seriously.
He takes being a champion seriously. He takes being a
role model seriously. And part of being a role model
is taking your job seriously and not looking like you're
someone on the sidelines just trying to shock people and
make people laugh. And I would counter and I want
I'm curious on your take on the Sean. The reason

(01:39:45):
that people didn't react to him back then when he
was serious is he hadn't been a new day for
all these years. He hadn't formed a forged to bond
with fans. Now he's a star now. People love him
so now, but he's now, he's in a different position
and he's not playing off as friends. He's going after
a major singles title, and you don't become a major

(01:40:06):
singles champion without a more serious side. So it would
work now because he's not a rookie on television who
people don't know. They know him, so he doesn't have
to drop who he was, but he can add to it.
I'm still that guy and that's who I really am.
But I got to be serious now. You know this
is It doesn't mean be boring, it doesn't mean not

(01:40:28):
showing some personality. But you have to also add to
the mix a mission statement where you're not just being
a goof. And I don't think that that's a binary choice.
I don't think that's either or. I think you can
actually still have personality but do it in a way
where there's a room for someone to take you seriously.

(01:40:48):
And I just don't know that that's been the case.
And I think he took a few steps that way.
But the way he defends being quote himself, I mean,
we all have different size to ourselves, but there's times
that there's times to be a certain slice yourself and
other times be a different slice. And now he's a
singles guy who has main event potential, can be a

(01:41:09):
lead babyface against Roman reigns potentially, And I don't know
that doing the act he's done a New Day is
the right route to make the most money and have
people take you seriously. So there there's my case in
response to James and just sort of I would might
have said that, you know, three weeks ago we can
before talking smack Sean your thoughts on this topic.

Speaker 4 (01:41:31):
Well, I think you hit a lot of the points
on the head.

Speaker 2 (01:41:34):
Is when he was a you know, he was a
singles before the New day run. He had no experience
as his current character that's bonded to the audience. So
I think a character can change and evolve and become
more serious and do what is needed to do in
terms of being a serious threat in the title picture.
And that's what he has to do if he wants

(01:41:55):
to be taken seriously. It's just if he's in there,
you know, humping the turn buckles every match, no one's
going to say, hey, I want to see this guy
carry the top belt and watch him fighting, you know
what I mean. Yeah, he's got to alter, you know,
he's got to transition his character. And it's just when
WWE does this, I have very little faith because the

(01:42:17):
part and partially of the company for so many of
their years is just, you know what I mean, this
cartoon crap, you know, And he could tone that down
and and just you know, I've heard him speak on
race issues and so forth, and he speaks so well
it makes me think that, you know what I mean,
It makes me think he'd be a great, you know,

(01:42:38):
speaker in the ring for a serious prize fight or
a serious championship match, you know. And that's what I
see on his character and that's what the people in
the company should see as someone who's very eloquent when
it comes to serious issues.

Speaker 4 (01:42:53):
You know, now that he's out of.

Speaker 2 (01:42:55):
The tag title scene, now that he's not you know,
with his buddies anymore. You know, people change, you know,
going for titles. It used to happen like wrestlers would
evolve in WWE, but it seems like they don't anymore, necessarily,
very often to.

Speaker 4 (01:43:12):
The point, you know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (01:43:14):
It's just wrestlers are so stuck in their ways almost
in a lot of instances, like we were talking about
Roman reigns just being presented a certain way for so long, and.

Speaker 4 (01:43:26):
That's the same thing.

Speaker 2 (01:43:27):
But it seems like, you know, people in ww he
should be there working with them, saying, hey, look at
this guy. Look at the way he speaks on social issues.
Look at the way he speaks on you know, other
serious topics of his Twitter account. You know, he could
be you know, he might be a you know, that
goofy side of him is what could be something people
really love. But when it's time to get serious, they

(01:43:49):
know he's serious. And that's what I see in him.

Speaker 1 (01:43:51):
Rock accomplished that you know, I meaneah, you know, and
not everybody had like a goofy side when they were
a main eventor and not everybody should. But you know,
Brett Hart did, into Steve Austin did, but not when
he was on top, you know, as like you know,
at the peak, there was a very narrow lane that
Steve drove in and it made and it made him
a lot of money and made his company a lot
of money and changed the course of the industry. Other wrestlers,

(01:44:12):
you know, have more of a range. And Chris Jericho,
you know, did I mean Chris Jericho was when he
was a main invenor, wasn't super boring and serious, but
it worked, you know. And so I just think it's
a it's it's a it's a false comparison for being
to say, when nobody knew who I was and I
didn't wasn't and I didn't have any any discernible character,
nobody cared about me, So now I can never go

(01:44:33):
back to being serious. It's like, no, now people care
about you. So now you can be serious, you know,
because you've already established that bond. So I hope, I
hope we're on a journey to that because again, it's
it's not a binary choice.

Speaker 2 (01:44:45):
And there might not be a great mentor for him
behind you know what I mean to help him. Yeah,
there's not that veteran guy there who's been what he's
been through as a black wrestler in playing that role.
You know what I mean in terms of his thought
is like, Hey, I'm making millions of dollars doing this,
why should I change it?

Speaker 4 (01:45:03):
You know? Or or hey, you know the market.

Speaker 1 (01:45:05):
Because you can make even more money and it's the
right thing to do. And I think people will be
on board and he can be I think, a better
role model for the people he wants to be a
role model for if he shows that he doesn't need
to do what he does for shock value for people
to care about him. And and I sincerely believe he
has arrived at a place where he does not. I

(01:45:26):
don't think he should feel the need to be quote
himself but himself in a way that feels not serious
and after hours and because he's just too talented, they
have to do that. There's there's people who need to
do that in order to be to hold their place
on a card, and he's not one of them. He
doesn't need to do that I think. I think people

(01:45:46):
would be on board from users. I want to sneak
in one maramail. This goes back to n XT. Liam
emailed and said, if WWE books this match intelligently, we
could be in for some tremendous matches. A match to
your potential tonight, but I think it should finish just
a four way draw without a single fall after sixty minutes,
then continue the four way pursuit until Survivor Series weekend,

(01:46:07):
where the four men battle into semi final matches followed
by the final over two nights are on the same night,
similar to Naito's double championship victory this year at Jericho's
undisputed champion championship success twenty years ago. Compelling matches like
this could provide different competition to a w and benefit
the wrestling fans hugely in the coming months ahead. Big
fan way to keep up the good work, thanks Liam.
I don't think they want the belt. The belt held

(01:46:29):
up through late November, so I'm going to discount that.
But the possibility that it's a tie and they don't
go in overtime because they run out of TV time
and they have a rematch next week in order to
draw rating and as he says, you know, compete with AW.
I wouldn't rule that out tonight, you know, when we

(01:46:49):
had that discussion about whether you know who should win
and why there is a chance in this match that
there are there is a two or three way tie
or potentially four way tie with either zero falls or
one each or something that does lead to no conclusive
winner tonight, I I do like.

Speaker 2 (01:47:06):
The idea of going going the hour and continuing into
the next week.

Speaker 4 (01:47:10):
I don't want to. I don't think it.

Speaker 2 (01:47:12):
Would do their ratings much good to, like you said,
hold it up through November.

Speaker 4 (01:47:16):
But I think, you know, with.

Speaker 2 (01:47:19):
With AW running their pay per view this weekend and
probably getting a lot of interest on Dynamite coming out,
you know the fallout. I mean, what better way to
hold people's interest than to have a compelling you know,
a draw or you know, a compelling hook heading into
next week and you know, announce that hey, you know
ahead of time, or you know, at least you know,

(01:47:40):
get the announcement out there on social media and press
releases that you know, or even advertisements on USA you
know they can announce on RAW, hey this match is
going to continue Wednesday, right. I think that's a really
good strategy, Like just just come out on raw and say,
if you want, you know, a little highlight package. If
you watched the NXT last week, you saw these four
guys go sixty minutes, and tonight it continues, you know,

(01:48:04):
no time limit, you know, must be a winner or
something like that.

Speaker 1 (01:48:10):
Yeah. Yeah, so I throw that in there. We'll see
people by the time they listen to this, it probably
will have happened and they'll know. But that is an
alternative booking approach and it was worth throwing out there.
So it didn't seem like it was inevitable. There'll be
just just one winner tonight and they could extend it.
Although who should come out with a belt? I still
stand by it just doesn't necessarily.

Speaker 10 (01:48:27):
Okay to night. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:48:49):
Invite you to email the show with feedback or questions
or comments. That email address is Wade Keller Podcast at
petewtorch dot com. That's Wadekeller Podcast at PW torch dot com.
Also welcome your feedback on Twitter. You can follow us
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Speaker 6 (01:49:12):
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(01:49:33):
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Speaker 7 (01:49:38):
Once again, that's pw boom dot com.

Speaker 1 (01:49:43):
Thanks for listening to our podcast. Did you know we
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Create a tab or bookmark make it a daily stop.
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Speaker 14 (01:51:47):
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