5 YRS AGO FLAGSHIP: Keller & Martin talk NXT Takeover 31, AEW Dynamite with Cody’s big promo, Smackdown and Raw, UFC, New Japan G1, more

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 2 (01:48):
Now, PW Torch and Speaker bring you the Wade Keller
Pro Wrestling Podcast.

Speaker 1 (01:58):
With AW Dynamite. Moved from Wednesday Tuesday. This week we
are shifting the flagship schedule and bringing you today the
five years ago flagship flashback. Later this week we'll have
the flagship probably tomorrow. We're still finalizing that. Todd Martin
five years ago joined me people towards Vipanalyst and we
talked about NXT takeover thirty one NXT on USA that week,

(02:18):
say W Dynamite SmackDown Raw. We talked to UFC in
New Japan g one among the hot topics, where did
WWB underplay Randy Orton's attack on Legends the previous week?
Also with your end, what's up with Undisputed Era? And
who at that moment was a top star in wrestling
based on that week's performances on TV? All that and
more in this Flakeship flashback, you can hear Todd Martin.

(02:40):
Every week with a PW Torch VIP membership, The Fix
with Todd and Wade usually is recorded on Thursdays, although
we're recording it on Wednesday this week because everything is
different when one thing is different. All right, go vip
PW torch dot com slash, go vip and enjoy this
flashback to what Todd and I talked about five years ago.
This week, this is PW Torch PP editor Wade Keller

(03:04):
along with p W Torch vipianalyst Todd Martin, and this
is the Fix for Thursday, October eighth, twenty twenty.

Speaker 2 (03:12):
What did you just laugh? No, I thought you laughed
at my intrue.

Speaker 3 (03:18):
Okay, it's something it's something I might do, but in
this instance, now I was just sitting here quietly.

Speaker 2 (03:23):
I just imagine you laughing at.

Speaker 3 (03:25):
You, do you imagine the whole thing?

Speaker 4 (03:27):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (03:27):
Yes, all right, let's let's get to it.

Speaker 1 (03:31):
Let's let's begin with actually Sunday's takeover event and run
down the show overall thumbs up thumbs down from you
on Takeover.

Speaker 3 (03:41):
This may surprise you wide, but I'm going to give
this takeover a thumbs up.

Speaker 2 (03:46):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (03:47):
Okay, well we have less to talk about than I thought. Then,
all right, Damian Priest Johnnie Gargano open things up. North
American Tititle match. Damian Priest went in eighteen minutes, nineteen minutes,
rounding up? What's your thought?

Speaker 3 (03:58):
So I actually was more on the negative side when
it came to this match. I just thought that the
height difference being so great undermine the ability to get
sympathy on priests who I don't think was that sympathetic,
you know, that sympathetic coppying round on one leg to
begin with. I thought some of the spots looked botty
and the fake ambient noise in the arena didn't help.

(04:21):
So I didn't think this was very good, and it
surprised me it was well received. But yeah, I thought
this was the the well, either this or the Kasheita
velveteen Dream matress the weakest thing on the show in
my opinion.

Speaker 1 (04:34):
All right, well, speaking of Kusheita velveteen Dream, your thoughts
on Kashida winning at their team mets here.

Speaker 3 (04:41):
Yeah, they weren't trying to do as much. I mean,
I thought it worked for what it was, which was
to put over Kashida as a more intense character. And
I'm curious where they go from from here with Kushita.
I think that having some edge to him can be
a good thing because he's been doing sort of the
same character for such a long period of time. Particularly,
I mean, obviously if you been following his career, if

(05:01):
you've just been watching that next to it hasn't met
that long, long time time period. And they did some
cool spots here with the Komoros too, so because she
always has some of that.

Speaker 1 (05:11):
All right, then isaiahs ro Scott against Santo's Escobar Cruiser,
right title on the line and Escobar retains here at
fifteen minutes.

Speaker 3 (05:18):
Yeah, I mean, this one I like more than a
lot of people. I thought this was just excellent. I
thought it was really crisp. I thought it was a
classic example of the match where both wrestlers are getting
over in the process. So I thought they did a
really good job, and I thought they had, you know,
their strongest match. There's their strongest match yet in their
little series, which I assume is now over.

Speaker 2 (05:36):
But yeah, yeah, yeah, all right and then he shrye
cancel right.

Speaker 3 (05:41):
Yeah, this was also very good, uh, you know, good
good wrestling throughout, although I don't I don't know about
the ref the ref in this match. So, I mean,
he gets bumped and Gargano comes out with a REF
shirt and the ref wakes up and the escort's Gargane
out of the ring. Like, so far, so good, nothing
out of the ordinary here, but then he starts screaming
at Gargano, give you my shirt, give me back my shirt,

(06:02):
and he starts trying to tear the shirt off Gargano's back,
and it's like, dude, like, Number one, how do you
know it's your shirt? It's just a generic REF shirt
and he's bigger than you. Number two, it's just like
a twenty dollars shirt. Get a grip. And Number three,
don't you have better things do like focus on the
match at hand. I mean, his his obsession with that shirt.
I gotta say it poured on pathological But you know,

(06:24):
as far as the uh uh, you know, the match,
I thought it was good, and then the returns afterwards
Tony Storm and Embermoon. I'm very happy to see both
of them in NXT. I think Tony Storm is supermarketable
and talented, and ember Moon is much better than what
she got on the main roster.

Speaker 2 (06:40):
So, and I think she was an isolation time, right,
I think.

Speaker 3 (06:45):
Good.

Speaker 2 (06:45):
Oh, I'm just.

Speaker 1 (06:47):
Doing a riff on her promo where she just talked
to euphemism about her time in the main roster.

Speaker 3 (06:52):
Yes, and now she's on what is it on ember Moon,
but I'm forgetting what she said, uh yeah, so and
and I think some people when they're on the main roster,
they do such a number on them, then when they
come back to NXT, you just like, I don't know
about this, but Emebermoon I think was not quite at
that level where they didn't do a very good job

(07:12):
with her on the main roster. But I thought that
she still had enough traction that I think people in
NXT will will still take to her and she'll be
able to bring a lot to the table. So I
think that's another positive addition as well. And I think
they're going to help the women's division a significant amount,
and it wasn't like their women's division was weak to

(07:34):
begin with. I do think that debuting them one after
the other was kind of productive. I do get the
psychology in doing it that way, and that it did
make the story that they're trying to tell be look
at all these great rosters that are coming for the title,
you know, and I mean I think they if they'd
done them separately, I think the thinking was likely, well,

(07:54):
we won't be able to make as much of a
statement about like how the our women's division is really
you know, amping up. But I just think that Tony
Storm's important enough that her return, in spite of that,
should have been on its own so you could really
focus more on it and be the focus of a
segment rather than something that was sort of quickly washed

(08:16):
away by another similar return. So I would have kept
them separate.

Speaker 2 (08:20):
All right.

Speaker 1 (08:21):
Then, Main event time Finn Balor Kyla Riley Balor was
this one in just under thirty minutes to retain the
NFT title.

Speaker 3 (08:27):
I thought this was just fantastic. It was as good
as pretty much any match of I think either of
these two have had I thought it was as good
as pretty much any match in this year's g Won.
I just I love the story of the match, with
Ballor being in control and working over O'Reilly continually while
o'reiley refuses to give up and fold. And it was
one match that stood out to me where I really

(08:48):
wished there was a live crap because I think they
would have been so into it and gotten into Kyler
Riley you're fighting back as the underdog. As for the
angle afterwards, I think if the idea was that Ridge
Holland was being moved into a main events sungles program
with Adam Cole, I'm not sure that he's ready for
that spot. But watching it, I read it as as

(09:10):
Holland being in cahoots was strong and fish and that
that was that he'd be their muscle against against Coal
and O'Reilly, And I thought, and granted I was thinking
that way before they started the show last night, but
I thought what we saw on the show last night
with that backstage segment, just sort of reading the body
language in the way that we're reacting to each other,
I and framing that that that Holland had been paid

(09:34):
by somebody. I thought that fit as well, along with
along with O'Reilly and Fish's reactions o'reiley, Fish, Fish and
Strong's reactions after the match. So if that's sort of
the idea to do well, it was the idea because
I'm assuming that Holland is going to be out for
a while to do a a three on two program.
I think that's a a good use of Holland. Since

(09:55):
Strong in Fish, I think are have been framed it
a little bit low over the level than col O'Riley.
So giving them something in addition would I think add
a little bit more strength to their side of things.

Speaker 2 (10:08):
Are very good.

Speaker 1 (10:09):
Anything else from from takeover No, all right, let's turn
to NXT.

Speaker 3 (10:16):
On one thing. I'm don't think, don't think we're not
watching you do it? Be with your you know, putting
your Capital Center in Florida. You know d C. D
C knows, DC knows what you're doing here. You know,
with your little Los Angeles Lakers, Utah jazz thing you
got going on there. There's we know where the capital

(10:36):
is nice.

Speaker 1 (10:39):
But what did you think by the way of the
Capital Center set up?

Speaker 3 (10:44):
I don't know. I mean it felt like, you know,
like I mean, clearly they put a lot of effort
into it with the big screen and the you know,
the the boards or the fence in front of it,
and the video screens. It felt to me like they
were working very very hard to tend this little small
arena was something that it wasn't and I to me, like,

(11:05):
I prefer to just lean into what you are, so
like for example, with during the pandemic. I'm forgetting which
of the boxing groups has done this, but a few
of the boxing groups have sort of done stuff like this,
where like they'll use like sort of a small building
and they've made it purposely feel very intimate. You know,
it looks like sort of a ballroom, and they don't

(11:26):
try to do a bunch of things. It's very clean
and neat, and it's sort of leaning into what it is.
And this I thought was sort of trying to fight
what it is, and that way it felt kind of
gaudy and kind of tacky to me, and it's look,
you know, just yeah.

Speaker 1 (11:41):
All right, I liked it a lot, but maybe I
like audient tacky.

Speaker 3 (11:46):
Yeah, I mean, who's to account for taste? People have
no taste.

Speaker 1 (11:51):
All right, let's pause and introduce the show. This is
the waye Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast The Thursday Flagship Edition
for Thursday, October eighth, twenty twenty Keller. I'm joined by Petertorge,
vipianalyist Todd Martin. This is a simulcast of the Weekly Fix.
Every three weeks, you get a big sample of what
we do for VIP members for three to four hours
every week. This is going to be nearly an hour

(12:13):
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(12:35):
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If you're not a.

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Speaker 1 (14:47):
All right, we'll shift out to NXT on Wednesday and
continue our NXT conversation here. They opened with Kusheta and
Tomaso Champa, which I have been told was a takeover quality,
take over caliber matchup and.

Speaker 3 (15:01):
Didn't have a takeover quality finish.

Speaker 1 (15:03):
No, no, that's that is a key difference. Champa wins
in fourteen minutes by d Q kind of a curious.

Speaker 2 (15:12):
Twist on on how that stuff works.

Speaker 1 (15:14):
Yeah, your your thoughts on the opening match and also
the velveteen Dream interverse.

Speaker 3 (15:20):
I mean, so I start this NXT up and I
was looking forward to the show. It's coming off Takeover.
They've added some new talent, and Champa comes out to
the starts of the show. It's like, okay, I always
like seeing Champa, and then out comes Kashita and immediate
it's like, wait a second, they're clearly not giving a
finish to this one. So, you know, because Kashita they've
just been putting over. They put them over last night,
and Champa is a guy that's framed higher on the show,

(15:43):
and they've got a pattern of not, you know, not
they don't they're not like, they don't tend to give
away finishes to, you know, to matches that you wouldn't
expect them to give finishes to. So immediate it's like, well,
they're you know, they're they're they're not going to do that.
And so you watch them at this very good match
fifteen minutes and then velveteen Dream just runs in for
a DQ and it just it felt to me like

(16:04):
a giant middle finger to the audience, like, here's how
we're gonna start the show. You're just gonna waste fifteen
minutes of your life watching something with absolutely no resolution, and
then we're just gonna move on like it never happen.
And that's just garbage, main event, main roster booking, where
I just think it's so counterproductive. And I have no
idea why TRIPLEAH doesn't recognize that, like in twenty twenty

(16:24):
or twenty twenty, depending upon how you look at it. There,
I just don't think there's any heat whatsoever on a
heel running in for a DQ. The heat is on
the promotion. And you know, if people even bother getting
angry to begin with, because they just expect that stuff
from the deb and I think if they have more
respect for their audience, that's how you'll grow your audience.
And we've seen with AEW that you know, template works

(16:46):
a lot better and it's a lot more satisfying as
a show when you give clean finishes and Denity doesn't
have to have clean finishes, have mad I think that
would be better, but they do many non finishes and
because of that, there's already built in a negativeivity towards
it and on a next it feels like they do this,

(17:07):
you know, fairly regularly, have a you know, the start
of the show be a a screw job finish, and
I just I think it's a terrible way to get
people invested in the shows that's starting off, going going
ahead and head with with with another promotion that doesn't
do that to its audience. So yeah, I did not
like it for that reason, even though the rest of
itself was very good. As far as Alvatin Dreams return,

(17:29):
I mean, it was interesting just in inasmuch as watching Takeover,
it seemed unclear whether they were writing off velveteen Dream
or whether they were potentially getting ready for the main roster.
And the idea that they do an angle where he
was seemingly injured seriously and then he just came back

(17:50):
the uh, you know, the next show to attack is
the guy that he was feuding with. That seemed less
likely than than some of the alternatives.

Speaker 1 (17:58):
All right, then we spoke of m Moon in the
previous segment. Ember Moon came back and cut a promo
said it's been a while. She said, she has been
in isolation for fourteen long hard and not that she's
gonna say days, Like, you know, she was around some
with COVID, so I hay to just go to my
house for fourteen days and be alone. And I'm like,
you're a little over drama about over dramatic about it,
but maybe you're in no, it wasn't working or you

(18:19):
didn't have any books you liked. And then she's like
long months, and she said it sucked, but a lot
has changed around here. And she talked about taking her
bike and driving miles and miles and miles and finding clarity.
She said she found the real Ember Moon. It's called
Ember's law and it means yes, which means she gets
to do what she wants when she wants to, despite
what people tell her. There's other people following that rule

(18:41):
these days. Yeah, I mean oh, And then she goes,
Mama wants some gold baby, and then she was interrupted
by Yosharai, who was about to speak, but she was
conveniently interrupted because she doesn't say a lot by uh
Rie Ripley. And then also after that, Riquel conzalizten Dakota
Kai attacked Real Rip and then that set up a
take match for later with Sharai standing in the ring

(19:05):
not helping, but ember Moon running out to help Ripley,
So that set up that take much anyway, Toddy, your
thoughts on this continuation of a new late lay of
the land as far as the NXT Women's division.

Speaker 3 (19:15):
Goes, Yeah, I mean, I thought the ember Moon part
of the promo was a little bit awkward, but that's
never been her strong suit and it seemed to be
more what you mentioned, which was sort of just sort
of showing the lay of the lad. Lay of the lad.
The lay of the land. Lay the lad is a
different deal, you know. They they've you know, they've got

(19:38):
a lot of talent, and they're sort of showing different
people that are involved and then setting up the main event.
So that was, you know, the focus.

Speaker 2 (19:44):
Here all right.

Speaker 1 (19:47):
Then they went out to the uh outside of the
Capital Center.

Speaker 2 (19:52):
I guess we have to say now and.

Speaker 1 (19:53):
Drake Maverick's arriving rover reporter asked what he's been up to,
when he said, he and Killian Dan have been coming
up with a lot of cool ideas for double team
moves and entrance themes. Bake things are in the pipeline.
Then Killian Dane showed up and hadn't. Really, I would
say history didn't match Drake's. Would that be a fair
way to put it.

Speaker 3 (20:10):
I think that's a very first dating. Yes.

Speaker 1 (20:12):
Yes, Drake said, I've been texting you. Dane says, you
don't have my number, and I'm not giving you my number.

Speaker 3 (20:19):
It's so understandable.

Speaker 1 (20:21):
Yeah, So anyway, your your thoughts on this setting up
their take match coming up against ever Reise, which Dane
did not know about because Drake was texting him but
doesn't actually have Dane's numbers, so Dane wasn't getting the
messages about the match that was scheduled.

Speaker 2 (20:35):
I think I got that right.

Speaker 3 (20:36):
I'll admit I like the Drake Maverick Killian Dane on
a couple pairing. I think it's funny. Neither of them
are supposed to be top acts. I don't think it's
undermining anyone. I'm enjoying it, and I appreciate the end
of it. After they had the match, which was, you know,
just sort of backdrop for the for the stuff here,
that Dane still knocked out Drake at the end because
I felt like that was the only appropriate response, you know,

(20:57):
and he carried him out afterwards, So I felt like
Dane was, you know, was largely justified in his behavior
throughout and and uh and Maverick was irritating, but irritating
in an amusing way.

Speaker 1 (21:10):
And is the music in your head like it was
mine right before we started the fix and the fixed
entrance music then blotted it up?

Speaker 3 (21:17):
No, I can't. I can't say that it was, but
that maybe that may that may no longer be the
case in a couple of weeks, unfortunately.

Speaker 2 (21:24):
Yeah, I mean it's not the worst.

Speaker 1 (21:25):
It'd be hard to be in a bad mood with
that music in your head unless you're just, you know,
grumpy by nature, like Killian Dane.

Speaker 3 (21:31):
Well, I've got a little bit grumpy in my nature.

Speaker 2 (21:34):
So maybe that caveat wasn't an accident, Todd.

Speaker 3 (21:39):
How dare you wait?

Speaker 2 (21:41):
How did I know? I mean, it's that in Sammy's ayin.

Speaker 1 (21:43):
I mean, if you play Sammy's Ain's entrance, although he's
you know, besmirched that a little bit with his with
his uh, over the top annoying approach lately, But between
that and this, it's it's hard to.

Speaker 2 (21:52):
Be in a bad mood. It just it feels like, yeah, well, I.

Speaker 3 (21:55):
Feel like there's I feel like there's sort of a
line there, and I don't know exactly where it is,
but where you sort of from being sort of saccharine
and happy to being almost like irritatingly so. And you know,
this music was overly trying to do that, whereas I think, yeah,
I mean Sammy's Ain's music, I would think would be
a much clearer example of a hard, hard music to dislike.

Speaker 1 (22:19):
Yeah, they definitely were going for that, trying to be
even yeah, more over the top than Sammy's music for sure,
but I don't know it worked for my mood today
having it in my head. That is all right, then
let's see. Oh yeah, YOSHREI just said Moon and Ripty
arn't my problem. That's why I didn't help him out.
She patted her belt and said, this is my problem.

(22:40):
So kind of playing the not not that it's a
big thing, but it puts your right sort of in
a position of not being being a champion above being
a babyface or a heel. Even though she's you know,
likable and.

Speaker 2 (22:50):
Cast as a baby face for the most part.

Speaker 3 (22:52):
I don't even know that i'd say that she's not likable.
I think like fans like her because she's really good.
But her character is, you know, it is kind of
you know, kind of a grouch and a weirdo. Actually,
I think people just appreciate that she's a good wrestler.

Speaker 2 (23:05):
Yeah, what does she does? She cheat to win?

Speaker 3 (23:09):
Well, I mean we've established many times and I don't
really care about whether people cheat or not.

Speaker 2 (23:14):
We'll talk about that next month.

Speaker 5 (23:20):
Need an extra dose of positivity in your wrestling podcasts,
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Speaker 1 (24:29):
So let's see what do we have here on disputed?
Are you talked about that a little bit? Anything more
you want to add about Cole just in? Actually I
kind of you know, Kyler Riley is like, you know,
still just lamenting his loss, you know, apologizing, and and
Roderick Strong.

Speaker 2 (24:42):
Said, no, nos, performance of a lifetime. You're you fought it,
you fought fought hard.

Speaker 1 (24:46):
So I mean they're trying to make O'Riley feel better,
but he clearly felt bad, says the follow up to
his loss on on Sunday.

Speaker 3 (24:53):
Yeah, I don't really have anything more.

Speaker 2 (24:55):
To add, yep, all right.

Speaker 1 (24:57):
So, uh then as as you mentioned Drake and Killer,
that's okay, Drake and Killy and Dane. You took on
Everiz and won, and Dane knocked him out. So just
I'm going in official war here, you know.

Speaker 3 (25:07):
I like that.

Speaker 2 (25:11):
So then after that.

Speaker 1 (25:14):
We had the uh Austin Theory promo and dexter Lums
coming out.

Speaker 3 (25:21):
Your thoughts on that, How could you just completely yeah
the newest signee.

Speaker 1 (25:29):
Let's I know how you feel about land Roff and
I apologize for that. Let's rewind the tape up next, Todd,
I'm very eager for your thoughts on the Austin Theory
Leon rough match. Did Leon Rouff put in a performance
of a lifetime like Kyla Riley did against Minnbeller?

Speaker 3 (25:46):
Well, I mean clearly no, that's kind of a silly question. Wait,
I mean the naturally went like thirty seconds. I mean,
who would who would? Who would think such a thing? Yeah,
I mean it was. I felt bad for him, man,
Leon Roff not lasting very long here, but it was
more a backdrop for the uh. I guess probably the
idea was that Austin Theory has lost so many matches

(26:07):
in a row that you know, give him like a
short trivia win, just so it doesn't feel like the
story is that he always loses and then have him
lose again. So I'm not I'm still not really sure
what they're doing with Austin Theory, because I mean, they
continue to give him talking time and he you know,
he carries himself like he's a star. But I don't
know that having him lose every week is uh is
a great formula. And the match with him and him

(26:33):
and Dexter Loomis is a pretty weird style matchup. And yeah,
I didn't think it was terribly great. And I continue
to be kind of a fuddle by Dexter Loomis as well.
So yeah, weird, uh weird uh convergence of personalities.

Speaker 1 (26:51):
Yeah, yep, all right, I'm more into Dexter Lumis in
that act than you are. But why, I don't know
how How can one explain? One can sometimes explain, But
when Dexter Loomis is an act that you like, it's
very difficult to defend it.

Speaker 2 (27:07):
But I get it. I get a kick out of it.
I get I think.

Speaker 1 (27:10):
It's uh, he's just he's he's a he's a he's
a lovable Weirdosye.

Speaker 2 (27:17):
Yeah, he is.

Speaker 3 (27:18):
I see half of that.

Speaker 2 (27:20):
I fit you do, But he's a weirdo too, Todd.

Speaker 1 (27:22):
I mean, he's you know, he doesn't really change facial expressions,
he doesn't make eye contact very much. It's it's hard
to explain, but I'm I'm I'm intrigued by him, and
I get NXT giving him giving him a baby face push.

Speaker 3 (27:34):
By the way, one of one of my favorite parts
of of UH. You know, I watched like a bunch
of these old shows and UH. One of my my
favorite things that I appreciate that I never noticed when
I was a kid watching some of these old tapes
is how often when when Lord Alfred Hayes is is

(27:56):
Because the first time I heard him say this, I
was like, oh, wow, that's funny, and then I started
noticing him doing it more. Is Lord Alfred Hayes calling
like these eighties rest of the squashes ponderous? He keeps calling,
Oh my god, look, I mean, like I forget who
he's used it with, like but you know, like whether
it's like the Warlord or like Jim Knightheart or Greg Vallentine,

(28:18):
like the ponderous, you know, such and such like that's
not a very complimentary word, Lord Alfred Hayes. And yes,
I think I think Dexter Lewis is ponderous in the rain?

Speaker 2 (28:29):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (28:30):
Wow you want that around to too?

Speaker 2 (28:33):
Quite the insult for poor Dexter.

Speaker 3 (28:36):
You know, it's funny, you said, I bought that around
because I got so wrapped up in it, I forgot
there for a little bit how that related to anything
we're talking about. But luckily I've recovered before I was
able to finish. And you you wouldn't have even known
it if I if I hadn't pointed it out. But yes,
for a second that I was sticking in my head,
how does that late to what I was talking about?

Speaker 2 (28:56):
Now?

Speaker 1 (28:56):
See, Dexter comes across as somebody who you know, like
I've talked about. You know, I said everybody's had a
neighbor like this, and then we had an issue of
whether that's actually true or not.

Speaker 3 (29:04):
But there's this you know, kind of stare very much
on that one.

Speaker 1 (29:08):
Yeah, but you know, there's I think there's a lot
of people out there who are just there alone.

Speaker 2 (29:13):
They're mowing their lawn.

Speaker 1 (29:14):
They they feel the world doesn't relate to them, They
don't relate to the world.

Speaker 2 (29:18):
And Dexter's found an outlet. You know, he's he's up.

Speaker 1 (29:21):
He's found a way to go out there and and
and wrestle and sort of be accepted in this fraternity
even though he doesn't you know, talk to people.

Speaker 2 (29:31):
No one talks to him. He's in this world competing.
I don't know if he has goals or thinks in
that way, but he generally shows up and does what
other people do and doesn't really let people into his world.
And I don't know, in a weird way, I think
that that really that's that's relatable to people who have
seen neighbors like that, And I think we just are
cheering on a guy who otherwise would just be in isolation,

(29:52):
you know, plucking weeds out of his backyard full time
and and you know, painting his fence every month.

Speaker 3 (29:57):
If he does relate to a neighborhood careen of some
sort of thing like that, it would most remind me
of a character in the video game Hello Neighbor. But
the character and Hello Neighbors is decidedly the villain of
it and just chases you around trying to murder you.
So that's not necessarily the most like relatable friend.

Speaker 1 (30:16):
But isn't that why Dexter Loomis is a good as
a good likable character because he breaks that stereotype, and
he might maybe people when they have a strange neighbor
now will look at them a little differently and and
just understand that they're they're not always bad.

Speaker 3 (30:31):
I don't know. I mean, Dexter Loomis doesn't. I wouldn't
want to hang out with Dexter Loomis. I'm not I'm
not reassured by Dexter Loomis. I would, in fact be
concerned that Dexter Loomis would want to kill me. But
more important, I think, aside from you should whether Dexter
Loomis would would would try to kill me or not,
there's also the concern that he would bore me when
I watch his patches, which is a bad trait in
a neighbor.

Speaker 1 (30:51):
Yeah, I would be, based on how you've talked about him,
I would be worried about him killing you. I mean
one of the things what the Dexter Loomis is well
your sympathy for him, you also have to be very
careful what you say around him.

Speaker 3 (31:04):
Yeah, so repeated the note, I don't think most people
like to be repeatedly insulted, So I can I can
see that, yes.

Speaker 1 (31:11):
Yes, yes, and really someone obviously is I would think
he would people Nobody likes to be insulted, but some
people get insulted and they're like, ah, that made me
feel bad and with Dexter. I think it's like he
goes into his garage and looks for how he's going
to get revenge by looking at what's hanging on the wall.

Speaker 2 (31:27):
So just be careful Toime.

Speaker 3 (31:30):
Again, You're not You're not framing him with the most
sympathetic babyface.

Speaker 1 (31:33):
I'm just saying you have to be careful around him, all.

Speaker 2 (31:36):
Right, all right, all right, let's see.

Speaker 1 (31:39):
Okay, So anyway, Cameron Grimes talks about attacking Dexter Lumis, So,
how are you feeling about I haven't done this in
a while time, but how do you feel about Cameron
Grimes right now?

Speaker 3 (31:47):
I feel like we've done this week.

Speaker 2 (31:49):
No.

Speaker 1 (31:50):
I know, I know it feels that way to you,
but I have not asked that question in months, maybe
once in the last six months.

Speaker 3 (31:56):
That cannot be true. That is, I do not believe you.
I think that's a lot and and a curtsy.

Speaker 1 (32:01):
Lie.

Speaker 3 (32:03):
I mean, he's the same He's the same guy. He's
a goofball. I don't think that the uh, the goofball
character is uh is one I'd be leery of. If
I'm in Donna b I will say that the pairing
of Loomis and grimes. While it feels on its surface
pretty random and weird, I actually feel like personality, personality wise,

(32:27):
they kind of mash. As far as why they wouldn't
get along, I can I can see it, you know,
like I can. They They seem very sort of contrasting personalities.
So there is that. But I'm not sure that they'll
be able to uh have the greatest entering feud, uh
we've ever seen.

Speaker 2 (32:44):
That's a high standard, Todd.

Speaker 1 (32:45):
But I will agree with you on that one.

Speaker 2 (32:48):
All right.

Speaker 1 (32:48):
So Rich Holland and Danny birch Ridge wins this one,
of course I won't sorry Danny, but and uh yeah,
and then the angle afterwards and and any anything else
you want to do.

Speaker 3 (33:01):
Yeah, I mean I thought that that the Birch and
Larkin did a good job of trying to put over
uh put over a Ridge as a as a monster
and a uh a dangerous character going into this, you know,
this elevated program. I thought that they did a good
job here. And I had heard before I started watching

(33:22):
that Rich Halland had been injured and so that things
going on. They have the match and like he's okay,
and because I had heard like the details and then
and then they do like the the angle and they
sort of go back and forth. I was like, he's
still okay, and it's like, you know, then at the
very end, it's like, man, if you just didn't push it,
if you'd just gotten out of there while you were ahead,
because I thought I thought it was going pretty well.
But yeah, the uh, the injury obviously uh caused problems

(33:46):
for everything else and it shouldn't. Shoul didn't come across
like something that uh that uh the key's going to
get over quickly, so it uh it's a bad timing
for him.

Speaker 2 (33:57):
Unfortunately, that seems to happen.

Speaker 1 (33:59):
I I'm not even like coming up with a list
in my head, but it just feels like that there's
unfortunate injuries at bad.

Speaker 2 (34:06):
Times like that happened more often.

Speaker 1 (34:07):
And I don't know if it's I'd have to think
through like the names in my head, but I don't
know if there's like just more like when guys got
opportunities they try too hard and something goes wrong. But
it's just yeah, emotionally, it just sucks when somebody is
getting a big push and then something goes wrong.

Speaker 3 (34:20):
But anyway, yeah, usually it stands out when that happens
when it happens right at the time, because like sometimes
you know, like it'll be a little bit after or
you know, it'll be you know, a few matches in
or a little bit four something's programmed. But like, yeah,
it does stand out when you have something that's being
set up and then right at the moment the big,

(34:42):
the big elevation is coming. There's uh, there's a there's
a problem.

Speaker 1 (34:46):
Yeah, all right, let's see then. Oh, what do you
think of the Gargano family reset the TV as a
gift and the their their latest hits?

Speaker 3 (34:57):
Yeah, I mean I just felt like the idea was
to to who attached them to Indie heartwell for the
time being, and we'll we'll see how that goes. I'm
assuming she's going to be sort of a you know,
stooge of sorts for for them for the time being.

Speaker 1 (35:12):
Yep, yep, all right, SHATSI and uhh Zia Lee. What
do you think of Shatti Blackheart versus Zaia Lee.

Speaker 3 (35:24):
I mean it just you know, it's a quick match
to get shots win and to present her as a
as a higher you know, at a higher level. So
you know, that's that's what they accomplished.

Speaker 1 (35:33):
Yep, all right, and then main event Tage Ember Moon
Ree Ripley to Coda Kairakel Gonzalez, uh Moon and Ripley
went in twelve minutes.

Speaker 3 (35:40):
Yeah, I thought this was pretty good. Yeah, same thing
Amber Moon is uh Is brought into the brand, and
so they they got her a quick win over woman,
like a quick one in the sense of a short match,
but a quick one in the sense of early into
her tenure to establish her when she's coming back. And
you know, of all the people that they you know
that they that segment earlier, you know, the one that

(36:02):
you would expect them to have for beat Us is
Dakota Kai and that's what they did.

Speaker 1 (36:09):
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(36:30):
Everything with Rich Fan and The Fix with Todd Martin.
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(36:52):
All right to move to anybody Dynamite from last night?
They opened up, Well, actually, we'll just kind of talk
about what they did with Chris Jericho first, because they
kind of weeded throughout the show with wrestlers. I actually
started with young wrestlers and then legends and celebrities, talking
about Jericho's thirty years, the conundrum of not having access
to much of anything from Chris Jericho outside of aw

(37:12):
other than you know, a few early photos, I guess
limited what they did. Your thoughts on the idea and
the execution of the thirty year celebration of Jericho's guert.

Speaker 3 (37:24):
I thought both were strong. I mean, I thought they
got a really good roster of people there. I mean,
really is impressive of a group for this sort of
thing as I've ever seen in terms of big time
stars and people important to Jericho and in wrestling too.
I thought it really made aweel feel major league in

(37:44):
terms of the people that were able to get in it. Also,
one thing that was also pretty striking from that is
it seems pretty damn obvious at this point that Jericho's
going face and probably sooner rather than later. And you
can see him already switching up his mannerisms to be
more like Akabole. I don't think he's just going to
go back to being the same heal character next week.

(38:05):
I think, you know, I think this was a major
you know, step off point towards the UH, towards the
ultimate direction with mjf and and UH and Jerical feuding
with each other, and you know, that's what you should
do when you're turning somebody faces UH, start to see
switches in their character and the UH, you know, the
singing along of the song, which I thought was kind

(38:28):
of productive when he was being presented as a as
a top heel now you know, plays into the UH
him as a UH, you know, a beloved legendary character,
which is how they framed them here. The other thing
I thought was interesting from those backers was just the UH,
and from other parts of the show was the was
the presence of New Japan on the show with Roshi
tana Hashi sending in as well wishes and aw acknowledging

(38:50):
Russell Russell Kingdom in the Tokyo Dome much more explicitly
than they had to date with the the Archer Moxley program.
And they don't have a deal yet as far as
I know, But I don't think they would have done
those things all at the same time if they weren't
at least more optimistic that they're going to be able
to work out a deal with the Japan at some
point now. So we'll see what comes of that. So yeah,

(39:10):
those are my general thoughts about the the some of
the stuff that came up with the Jericho vignettes.

Speaker 1 (39:17):
Did you think the land storm comments about Jericho was
probably the low light of the Tribute series?

Speaker 3 (39:22):
What a rude comment, Wade, What a what a rude
thing to say? I know, I don't, Oh good.

Speaker 1 (39:28):
I just something you texted me earlier made me think that.
But I thought maybe you didn't want to talk about
it on the show.

Speaker 3 (39:34):
Wait, that was private. How dare you?

Speaker 1 (39:36):
I don't even have your number still, try to get
your number, make setting to show up a little difficult,
and I've got to try to.

Speaker 2 (39:44):
Pride out to you one of these years, all right.

Speaker 1 (39:46):
They opened with Will Hobbs and the Machine Brian Cage.

Speaker 2 (39:50):
Cage wins this one in eleven minutes.

Speaker 1 (39:51):
Your thoughts on on this match and what it did
for both wrestlers and then the Yeah, I guess the
post match too.

Speaker 3 (39:59):
Yeah, I thought that is a very good match. I
mean the clearly the idea in what they were doing
was to get over Will Hobbs while putting over Brian
Cage in the uh in the match in terms of
who won, and you know, that should have been the
goal here, to get over Hobbs and losing, and I
thought it was. It was effective in making Hobbs look

(40:21):
strong while coming up short and also putting over Brian Cage. Yeah,
I thought the execution on this was, uh, this was
pretty much perfect. I mean really, if you know, I
would use this as an example of why occasionally I'll
say they do too much of this sort of thing,
you know, where they'll have you know, like not to

(40:41):
like pick on you know, I'll pick up a random
wrestler pick on them, but like you know, like if
on Helico is wrestling uh Brian Cage, you know, for
you know the same thing here, they'll very frequently do
the same thing, you know, like up and down the car.
They'll have these matches where they'll really try to get
over you know what. A good example of it Dereic
Jericho and Mark Quinn the other week. And sometimes I'll say,

(41:02):
you know, I thought they gave the person who was
losing too much because number one, you want to focus
more in the winter. But then number two, you don't
get as much impact from this sort of a match
if you do this sort of the match all the time.
And so Will hobbson and Brian Cage, you know, if
you if you want this sort of thing to be
particularly effective in making people think, oh, you know, Will
Hobbs lost, but he really put up a fight there,

(41:24):
you know, like there's something there in the fact that
he hung with Brian Cage. This is the sort of
match where you want to be more sparing about another
context so that it stands out when it actually matters more,
and you know, it matters to get over you know,
Will Hobbs since it seems like they have plans for
him as a significant singles player than in the example
of Mark Quinn, who's at this point, you know, a

(41:46):
lower level tag team wrestler.

Speaker 2 (41:49):
All right, yep, then.

Speaker 3 (41:54):
Not that you ask so all answers, I'd ignored you before.
I thought the post match was fine, you know, just
the idea that like Taz was impressed by him. I
did think that there was an element where Taz. I mean,
he's a heel, so he doesn't necessarily have to pick
up on these things. So I thought he's should have
been a little more savvy than a point that he
threatened to do terrible things to Will Hobbs if he

(42:14):
didn't mix out that there might be people coming out,
given that they've that's been happening, you know, repeatedly a flight.
But he didn't, he didn't see that one coming.

Speaker 1 (42:23):
Yeah, and he gave option A, Option B, and then
option C just happened, which is, you know, Darby comes
out and they leave, which takes a little bit of
a threat threatening the credibility of task threats away from him.

Speaker 3 (42:36):
Yeah, I mean, you gotta do a better job of
threatening Tass. I try to, you know, I try to
back up my threats myself.

Speaker 1 (42:42):
Yes, it's not about the threats, it's about backing them up.
And this is a you know, next time Taz goes
do this or else someone will go, oh, that's called
Darby out.

Speaker 3 (42:49):
You guysn't run, No, you're not disemboweling me.

Speaker 1 (42:52):
Taz all right, Jack Evans and a Helico challenge FTR
and FDR when one of twelve minutes with.

Speaker 3 (43:00):
Us, Oh, this is a fun match, you know. I
thought they worked well together. I like the fact we
got a clean finish since FTR shouldn't need a cheat
every week and so they didn't hear. I was amused
when Hybrid two came out and Ji goes, they've been
on dark a lot. I don't know, I don't know
what his intent was, but sure came off like a's

(43:22):
total burial, you know, like he's been you know, he's
been on the non televised you know, the time televised
game of the week a lot. You know. But it
kind of a rough night in general for JR, with
him forgetting Ricky Stark's name earlier and calling him Rickey
Skaggs and that was pretty embarrassing, particularly right to his face.
But it happens. H I was not a fan of the.

Speaker 1 (43:44):
I'll throwing real quickly from just when Ross said they've
been a dark lot ex caliber, Who does this a
lot with Ross. He jumps in and sort of he's
kind of grabbing the steering wheel from the guy dozing
off at the wheel or maybe who's you know, not
paying attention, and he grabbed the steering wheel. He goes,
they've been on a hot streak of three wins. Uh,
you know, like it's just I just Ross is you know,
the lead announcer. But excaliberts in the passenger seat, just

(44:06):
reaching over and just tell the steering wheel back on
course a little bit to keep them in the dotted lines.

Speaker 3 (44:11):
I yeah, I don't know if I I would say more,
I'll take your analogy, but I'll twist a little bit.
I would say it would be more like the driver
has driven off the road and EXCaliber has driven out,
jumped out of the back seat, and try to steer
it back onto the road, because I don't know, this
is so much of like the potential to to go
off base so much as you're off, you're off the road.

(44:34):
Let's try to you know, let's try to get uh
get you know, try to salvage this as much as
we can.

Speaker 2 (44:42):
All right, Yeah, so anyway, go ahead, I know I
jumped in.

Speaker 3 (44:46):
Oh no, as far as the postmatch went. I was
not a uh not a not a fan of what
they what they did there in the sense that the
video wall photosho I think are pretty universally lame and uncool,
and calling people weenis is equally uncool. I enjoyed chuck

(45:06):
ET's reverent sense of humor, but this feels too much
like with its you know, with its shitty comedy. So
I was I didn't think that the post match was effective.

Speaker 6 (45:20):
In twenty twelve, NXT transitioned into the developmental system and
ultimately the brand you see today. On the Torch VIP
podcast NXT Eight Years Back, we'll be taking a weekly
look at this page in NXT's early history.

Speaker 7 (45:35):
Join Kelly Wells and me Tom Stout from PWT Talks
NXT every Saturday as we go eight years back to
the day to track NXT's rising talents and why they
did or didn't work out, exclusively for PW Torch VIP members.

Speaker 1 (45:54):
I know you disagree with me on the lights out
lights on thing that I was against, but this falls
into that category in the sense that I think something
that was once cool in terms of the lights off,
lights lights on, has become uncool and cliche and trite
and not that this was ever cool, but lord right,

(46:15):
but no, no, I'm accounting for that.

Speaker 2 (46:17):
But Taylor Chuck Taylor, and uh, I'm staring at Trent
and Chuck.

Speaker 1 (46:26):
Okay, because Trent lost his name and Chuck Taylor doesn't
often use his last name. I'm like, is his name
Trent Chuck or Chuck Trent? And I'm like, oh wait,
it's Trent BARRETTA and Chuck Taylor Chucky t all.

Speaker 3 (46:38):
Right, it's Trent seven.

Speaker 2 (46:40):
Don't don't even so with with Trent and Chuck. They're
not there.

Speaker 1 (46:45):
Their act isn't top level, so a low end tag team.
And I'm not saying I would even I would vote
against this in general with a blank slate, but John
Cena doing this for as much as he did, and
WWE in general doing it and flopping so many times
where all people think about is the wrestler showed up
and they roll their eyes because the nerdy riding team

(47:06):
came up with something they think is funny that nobody
else thinks is funny and they just didn't have the
energy to fight against it. I think a lot of
people watch these kits and imagine something along those lines happening,
and it's.

Speaker 2 (47:14):
Been sober done.

Speaker 1 (47:16):
Yeah, yeah, and it's been sober done for so long
that even if you have an act where it's more
appropriate then your lead world champion Babyface being horribly uncool,
where you have a mid card tag team who are
self aware their gimmick is their mom drives them to
the matches in a minivan. They're self aware, they're not
trying to be made of an acts and they do
the weenie bit again with a self awareness to the

(47:39):
act that they're not trying to be cool. It still
doesn't work because WWE ruined it and by overdoing it
and failing at it. And so this is another case
where I think, ultimately I'm with you on this, which
is aw shouldn't do things that WWE has ruined or overdone,
including by the way distraction finishes, you know, even if
you can justify it in a vacuum. And so it

(48:02):
seems like, well, it's a shame, why should we let
that would be ruining something stop us from doing it better.
But there's just certain things you just need a couple
of years of an aradatorium before you can kind of
try to ring into do some other better circumstances, and
I think photoshopped images of faces on Wieners is one
of them.

Speaker 2 (48:16):
Weenis.

Speaker 3 (48:17):
Yeah, absolutely, I think you've got to be aware of
what when you are the competition, and particularly when you're
the competition against a show against the promotion that has
been declining in popularity for a very long period of time,
and the popularity of your industry has gone down significantly

(48:38):
because of that. You need to be cognizant of the
sorts of things that the main promotion does that and
then avoid those because those are the sorts of things
that make people think negatively about wrestling in general. And
they've done some of that, like the clean finishes being
an example of that, of avoiding of bearying of people,

(49:01):
which I think is something that frustrates people, and watching
B is the way that they just bury acts. Some
of that I think is there, but other things they
just sort of like there seems to be no awareness
of how it's linked to to B and the fact
that they have runned into the ground. So yeah, I
absolutely think that that makes things worse. But I also

(49:24):
do think that there's a distinction you allude to this yourself,
between things that are bad because they are overdone, and
things that are just bad no matter how many times
you do it, and the stupid photo shopping on this
on the on the screen will while the announcer's fake
laugh has always been dumb. It's just it's lame adolescent

(49:47):
behavior that it isn't funny. That's just like, you know,
like people who are I just can't imagine somebody who's
genuinely amusing thinking the way that they're going to be
funny is you know, creating a photoshop and putting it
up on a screen. It's just it's it's so immature
and lame as a form of getting at somebody. So

(50:08):
there are some things where yeah, it'd be having you know,
a has a role in making it worse, But there
are other things where it's just like, under no circumstances
is that a good idea, And particularly with some of
the humor, because just like I was talking about earlier,
where with finishes, people blame the promotion rather than the
wrestler that's interfering, and the heat is on the promotion

(50:31):
when you give bad finishes. There are certain types of
humor where because of the way people think of wrestling
now because they've been watching this, you know, corporate managed, micromanaged,
homogenized wrestling where everyone talks the same and acts the same.
People think of it as what's happening on the screen
is an illustration of the promotion overall as opposed to

(50:52):
an individual character if they see something that's super lame
and uncool and feels like just like why do I
want to be associated with this sort of humor? Like
what a loser?

Speaker 2 (51:01):
It?

Speaker 3 (51:02):
It shifts from just an individual wrestler to the promotion
in general that this is a promotion for losers, and
you don't want to be the promotion for losers. You
want to be a promotion that's cool. And so I think,
you know, up and down the car, regardless of who
it is on the on the on the show, if
you have someone that just seems like terribly uncool, it
hurts the promotion overall that that that's the sort of

(51:25):
acts that you're featuring there. And I don't I don't
buy the idea that that's sort of just something intrinsic
to Chuck e T. I've been watching Chucky to do
like you know, sort of like you know, weird off
color humor for over a decade now and I like
Chuck e. T. I think he's talented, but like you know,
like calling people Weeni's and you know, riding around in
your your friend's mom's Vini van, that's not that's not

(51:47):
good material. That's just shitty material. So you know, I think,
you know, I think there's a better ways to to
to be funny.

Speaker 2 (51:57):
Yeah, and I'll add to it.

Speaker 1 (51:58):
It struck me doing this with FTR, with what they
went through in WWE, makes it sort of twice as counterproductive.

Speaker 3 (52:06):
Yeah, I mean it's certainly FTR isn't the butt of
the joke here. I don't think I mean the you know, well,
I mean, I guess they are technically they're trying to,
but I don't think anybody is thinking. If they don't
like that angle, it's not because they think FTR is
being hurt. It's because they think they think they're just

(52:27):
what what Trent and Chalk are saying is stupid. So
if anybody Trent and Chalk are the ones at risk
being buried, was FTR just sort of standing there? They
the in storyline, they may be the butt of the joke,
but they're not really the butt of the joke. But
either way, they're adjacent to nonsense, and yeah they were,
you know, they were trying to avoid being nonsense adjacent

(52:49):
when they left it a B.

Speaker 2 (52:51):
And that's the thing.

Speaker 1 (52:52):
I think what you're doing is you're you're trying to
reframe FTR is a serious act and that was gonna
be an uphill battle because in front of a larger
audience than a w HAS, they were defined down greatly
and treated very poorly, to a point that there was
I think fans are ready to push back heart in
AW fan base was ready to push back card and
it breaks them harder not reject them based on how

(53:12):
WWE abused them, because of how good they showed themselves
to be, how great they showed themselves to be an NXT.
So don't associate them both. Anything that makes it look
like AW is going to do bad comedy in a
few that involves FTR. It just brings back memories and
it makes I think what you just said is a
differentiation between the two. I think a lot of fans
look at that and go, oh God, not again. And

(53:34):
that's their their just emotional reaction to seeing Weeni photoshop
and FTR and they're like, oh God, AW is going
to do what w did?

Speaker 2 (53:41):
What's next?

Speaker 3 (53:43):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (53:43):
At little U you know PTS, I guess.

Speaker 1 (53:49):
Anytime you're watching WWE Raw or SmackDown or aw Dynamite
in particular, send us an email if you've got thoughts
on the show or a topic you want us to
address or a question for us. Wade Keller Podcast at
pw torch dot com. Wade Keller Podcast at petw torch
dot com. If there's anything else going on in pro
wrestling that you want us to address on our main

(54:10):
podcast during our mailbank segments, that same email applies Wade
Keller Podcast at pw torch dot com. We invite that interaction.
Let us know what you think of what we're saying,
and let us know what you want us to talk
about and ask us specific questions. Wadekeller Podcast at pw
torch dot com. All right, so let's see.

Speaker 2 (54:32):
Oh, how about the.

Speaker 1 (54:34):
Matt Nick Jackson and their continued superkick superkicking of people?
They saw they were shown during the match for contextusident
say they were watching the match on a monitor. I
think did you notice Matt's weird posture when he was
watching the monitor? Was that a rip on w B
or or am I making too much. Yes, okay, good,

(54:55):
good cheers for that, but then they noticed they were
being filmed all along and Superkick the camera guy. Just
in general, your thoughts on on where they're going with
the Box With this week's content added to the to
the evidence, I mean.

Speaker 3 (55:09):
I think it really added a lot. It is just
sort of a continuation of the same thing that they're
super kicking backstage uh producers and you know, interviewers and
you know, various people that have done nothing to them,
and it makes them seem, uh seem more heelish. But
by the same token, I mean, they're making it clear
that they want to go after they want to go

(55:30):
after FTR. That was clear this week. So I mean it,
you know, it's the same thing last week, where like
it what what I'm watching does not seem like they
are making Young Bucks into a an edgy baby face
tag team, but given the alternative hypotheses, that seems as
likely as uh as any. It's sort of like when

(55:52):
they're you know, when they're trying to when they're trying
to figure out what's going on with UH with dark
matter and dark energy and and and you know, string
theory and all that and they're like, Wow, this seems
kind of sketchy, but you know, we don't have a
better explo that's you know, that's kind of yes, that's
kind of this.

Speaker 1 (56:08):
I did see it going there, but that's that's that's
a good comparison. What do you think of Tony Shavanni
with the.

Speaker 3 (56:14):
With the with the implication being that the booking of
the Young Bucks is perplexing on the letter level of
the universe's mysteries.

Speaker 2 (56:21):
Yes, exactly, but it works. I mean, you made it
work so good job.

Speaker 3 (56:28):
So yeah.

Speaker 1 (56:28):
Earlier in the match, Tony Shavanni said that he can't
hold a grudge because he's always liked them and they're
a great tag team.

Speaker 2 (56:38):
Now, if there was like he's a nice guy, he's
a wow guy.

Speaker 1 (56:41):
I mean, if there's a band I like, and I
go and I see him, and I like their music
and I think they're great, Like I've always liked their music,
and I think they're great at what they do. And
I'm like front row and the guy the lead guitars
just hits me over the head of the guitar for
no reason. I'm not gonna go on National TV and say, ah,
you know, I like their music still, and they've always

(57:04):
seemed like nice guys. I again, I don't know what
they're doing with the Bucks, and I don't think I'm
gonna end up liking the way that the journey that
they're on and the way they're telling the story.

Speaker 2 (57:12):
I think it's a little to bte for dynamite, But
Tony's not.

Speaker 1 (57:17):
Tony often doesn't help matters any often extinguishes what's going
on unintentionally. But I just maybe this is needed for
him to pause people like Tony, for him to forgive them.
But it feels kind of stupid to me.

Speaker 3 (57:31):
Yeah, I think that's a fair that's a fair assessment.
I think I think Tony's immediate forgiveness of the young
Bucks defies, defies easy explanation. But hey, like we said, Tony,
Tony's a nice kind So what.

Speaker 1 (57:47):
What worries me at a larger scale? And you can
talk talk me off the ledge a little bit here
because I want to be it's not enough evidence.

Speaker 3 (57:54):
To be super I have a firm policy of not
talking to people.

Speaker 1 (57:58):
I bet you do so well, we'll we'll take that
off the table. Then I'll use a different, different approach.
Should I be worried about what this storyline as it's
as we see it so far with the box, what
that tells us about their their booking acumen in terms
of their vision as executive vice presidents people on the
creative team. Does this worry a little bit or do

(58:19):
you want to see a little more of this before
you even began to be worried about how their their
vision in terms of how to execute whatever it is
that they're trying to execute their characters right now.

Speaker 3 (58:27):
Well, I don't know who's booking what behind the scenes
in terms of like the levels of responsibility for everything,
but you know comes up from time to time. I
you know, I watched the AW show and there are
some parts of the show that I like the direction
a lot better than others, with one prime example of
the positive coming up soon here and the tag team division.

(58:50):
Over the course of you know, of AW, I don't
think has been you know, has been one of the
highlights by any means, And that's one where they've played
an outsized role. And I don't know, I don't know,
I would have been like super confident in the Young
Bucks sort of vision of how they would put together
a wrestling show, uh before this, but yeah, I mean,
if we if we assume that a lot of this

(59:12):
is is sort of their their direction and their line
of thinking. Yeah, I mean, it doesn't inspire a lot
of confidence with the caveat that we haven't reached the end,
and uh, you know, we'll we'll see where they're going
with it. Maybe it will make sense in the end,
like for example with you know, Omega and Page. There's
been some bumpiness and overall I'm not I'm not terribly

(59:36):
keen on what they've done, but it feels like they're
kind of writing the ship now and it's becoming it's
becoming more clear where they're where they're going with it
at this point.

Speaker 1 (59:46):
Yeah, yep, all right, fair enough, let's see. Okay, So
we had MJF after that segment give a little tribute
to Jericho and and that's set up a little bit
what they did later. Not sure if there's anything to
say that. Then it was not time for Brody Lee
versus Cody in a dog collar match. They had Greg

(01:00:06):
Valentine sitting alone in the crowd reacting to it. They
cut to him at three or four times during the match.
Ross referenced his dog collar match with Roddy Piper back
in nineteen eighty three. Just over to you, Todd, what'd
you think of this match? And also the post match
probble from Cody.

Speaker 3 (01:00:21):
I love this match. I thought it was intense and dramatic,
and what I thought that the Greg Valentine thing was
a nice touch. I like how AW seems very attuned
to wrestling history and seems to do a lot of
stuff because they like, you know, paying stribute to different
parts of wrestling history and being able to acknowledge it

(01:00:42):
and use it. And what I like the most about
this match was that for a years stipulation matches have
been made so safe and light and PG by B
and it feels like stipulation matches there's just sort of
like a fun occasion for the wrestlers to play in
a different environment, you know, Like what was what was

(01:01:05):
the uh what was the one that stood out? I
think it was it. It might not have been this,
but I think it was this where like they had
the first women's elimination chamber match and someone was talking
it sounds like something about Phoenix would say, but it
might have been somebody else was about like how happy
she was for the women that they're getting the opportunity

(01:01:26):
to be in an elimination chamber match, and it's just
framed as like this, like fun little road trip that
they get to have together, as opposed to like this gritty, violent,
troublesome place. And I think a big part of the
appeal of most stipulation matches historically, when a promotion had
a big Texas death match or a steel cage match,

(01:01:51):
was the idea was that they were not fun in life,
but they were dark and they were violent, and it
was going to be a settling of the score and
it was going to be something, you know, something gritty
and dangerous and exciting for that reason. And I think
that's a hook that appeals to your traditional pro wrestling base,

(01:02:15):
a lot of whom frankly, have been run off by
the approach of pro wrestling over the last twenty years.
And this match felt super violent without even necessarily being
that violent in terms of what was happening, but between
the blood and the wrapping the chain around people and
the close ups, it just felt like this is a

(01:02:35):
dangerous spectacle and a tough fight and you don't want
any part of this, And that, to me is the
edge that you want in stipulation matches, if you want
to make people anticipate stipulation matches like, oh, there's going
to be a real, you know, real dangerous I got
to check this out, and you're sort of like, you know,

(01:02:56):
half of you wants to look away. I think that's
I think that's what you want to say, sipulation match.
And I thought this match had that element. And I
think the next time they do, I don't think they
need dog calling matches that much, but the next time
they do, like sort of a heavy stipulation match, like
their version of war Games, it's gonna have more of
that feel than entices you and makes a stipulation match
feel like something really big that you have to check out.

(01:03:18):
And then afterwards, I thought Cody caught one cut one
hell of a babyface promo. I mean, he was just
so great in the way that he appealed to fans
in a way that made him you know, that didn't
in any way undermine him or make him seem you know, uncool.
He was this, you know, this guy that you wanted
to rally behind. And by the way, if he if
he still turns heel down the road, it'll make it

(01:03:39):
feel like even more of a portrayal. So that's that's
you know, I think this is you know, it's perfectly
fine to do something like that and then to eventually
have him turn heel anyway in spite of what he said.
So yeah, going back to the thing we're talking about
a little while ago, in terms of like people different
booking different parts of the show, I mean, Cody, to me,
at this point, he's the best overall wrestler in the business.
I mean, there are certainly better entering wrestlers, but nobody

(01:04:01):
in wrestling has a total package like Cody in terms
of in terms of the promos, in terms of the
way he carries himself. The matches do deliver, Like he
makes things feel major league and important, and he elevates
to the people that he works with too. I mean,
to me, Cody, what Cody is doing is what wrestling
should be in twenty twenty. Like that's a template. Like

(01:04:22):
I don't think he's had like a misstep this entire year.
That guy, that guy is just really knocking out of
the park. And this was another example of that. So
I know, I know, I rant and rave about how
great he is on a regular basis. Here but I mean,
I just I just think he's it's so encouraging to me,
because not only do I think it's very entertaining, but

(01:04:42):
I think it's it's showing a light of a lot
of things that I think a lot of people in
wrestling could learn from and should be following, because I
think he's offering a, you know, a different vision of
what wrestling should be, and a vision that I think
would lead to an popularity and for wrestling if it
became implemented on a wider basis.

Speaker 1 (01:05:04):
All right, great, And then they hyped Cassidy and Cody
for next week and for their Anniversary show and just
built up the Anniversary Show quite a bit throughout this Also,
the ratings were down this week some kindis was a
little bit of a transition were finish up Dynamite? Any
any just thoughts on where the ratings stand. Viewership last

(01:05:26):
week for a w was eight sixty eight. It was
down to seven fifty three this week despite the hype
for Jericho Anniversary and the dog Collar match. Dynamite. Excuse me?
NXT also down from seven thirty four to six thirty nine.
Any thoughts on on that news that came in during
the show here, and also whether you think they'll be
a rebound for next week.

Speaker 3 (01:05:48):
Depends on what's on what's what's on TV next week.
I mean, there's a lot more competition right now in
terms of entertainment sports, you know, like all the World
Series game, the fly was a big drawing car. It was, uh,
you know, it was There's a lot of a lot
of stuff going on, So I don't I don't read
too much into into that one way or another. I
think we'll, uh, we'll have a you know, a better

(01:06:09):
sense in the uh in the coming weeks as some
of the stiffer competition uh goes away.

Speaker 1 (01:06:17):
Yeah, I mean, I've done the math on it seems
like it was a little bigger drop for NXT and
a W compared to last week, relative to what RAW
had been averaging and what I sort of thought Rod
did at one point two zero. I thought they'd dropped
below that with you know, two football games, two baseball
games and all the news with Trump and so that
seemed to hold up a little better. But this wasn't
out of the ranging and I haven't charged, I haven't

(01:06:37):
put the numbers into the spreadsheet to get a full perspective.
On it yet, But it jumped out to me a
little bit, especially with all the hype of the dog
collar match in Jericho and then coming out of Takeover,
that they didn't hold their typical audience a little better
than that.

Speaker 2 (01:06:49):
But it is.

Speaker 1 (01:06:50):
It is weird times we live in right now, and
certainly the VP debate. Have you seen numbers on the
VP debate yet?

Speaker 2 (01:06:55):
How that did?

Speaker 3 (01:06:57):
Yes? I did it? Did it did quite well? I
forgot the numbers? Who are? But yeah, do it did?

Speaker 7 (01:07:01):
A h A?

Speaker 3 (01:07:02):
I want to say, maybe like fifty million something like that.

Speaker 2 (01:07:05):
Yeah, okay, okay, so that certainly played into it.

Speaker 8 (01:07:12):
Searching for more great pro wrestling talk, then join me
Jason Powell, host of the three weekly Pro Wrestling Boom Podcast.
Each week you'll hear the latest news and analysis from
me and my team at Pro Wrestling dot need, along
with other pro wrestling media members. Plus the Pro Wrestling
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(01:07:34):
all your favorite secondary apps, or visit us directly at
PW boom dot com. Once again, that's PW boom dot com.

Speaker 1 (01:07:48):
All right, Well, let's let's move on that. So we
had Alexmarvis interview in Keny. O. Meg, you talked about
this seeming to kind of be coming together, Cole Lessing
a little bit in a good way, your thoughts on Kenny, and.

Speaker 2 (01:07:58):
What you had to say about Adam Page.

Speaker 3 (01:08:01):
By the way, one one quick note that I'd forgotten
to mention from the previous thing. I do wish that
they'd explained why Orange Cassidy's getting another title shot, given
that he had lost his last TNT title match two
weeks ago and hadn't really done anything since. So I thought,
you know, that's sort of things that was a I
wouldn't really pay much attention to because they don't tend
to dot their eyes and cross their teas. But with aw,

(01:08:24):
I would have liked to have heard more of an
explanation why if you just lost TNT title match, wh
I was getting another TNT title match. As far as
Kenny O makeup program.

Speaker 1 (01:08:32):
Cost coming coming online will be the backstage happenings, which
will be a bunch of wrestlers. When Cody made that
open challenge running towards the stage in a mass and
Orange Cassidy making it to the magic entrance area. First,
the guy plays his music and Orge Cassidy smiles at
all the other wrestler who were late, late to get
to the key spot to earn the title shot. It's

(01:08:53):
just whoever gets it's like a cakewalk. Whoever gets to
a certain spot wins, and he did well.

Speaker 3 (01:09:00):
I mean, I'd say that that doesn't make a lot
of sense given given Orange cassidy sloth life demeanor. But
we did see a number of weeks back that when
he when he splinted across the back of the screen
to get at Chris Jericho, that if he's particularly motivated,
he can he can run pretty quickly.

Speaker 2 (01:09:15):
Yep, I agree.

Speaker 1 (01:09:16):
I think he saves it for he saves up all
his energy for really important moments in that seems like
one of them.

Speaker 3 (01:09:21):
As far as as Kenny Omega goes, I I I
thought that the line from Kenny Emg about tag team
wrestlers like Adam Paige was pretty clever when he when
he dropped that in and then he went back to
it and went back to it. I think he said
it three times. He might have said it four times,
and I thought I thought that was a bit much.
As far as hitting you over the head with the

(01:09:42):
point of the promo, I think expect more of your audience,
Like I you know, like when I was watching that
and I heard that the first time, I was like, oh, like,
there's that's the key to the promo. You didn't have
to repeat it four times, you know, like, assume assume
your audience is is uh is paying tells you what
you're saying.

Speaker 2 (01:10:02):
I'm sorry, what?

Speaker 3 (01:10:03):
All right?

Speaker 2 (01:10:04):
I went too far? All right?

Speaker 1 (01:10:08):
Ross even said Omega doth protests too loudly and that
it does bother him that that Omega is or that
Pages in the tournament. Where do you think this is going?
Is AW going to have Omegan Page face off in
the finals?

Speaker 3 (01:10:19):
Like yes?

Speaker 2 (01:10:20):
Or is that too?

Speaker 1 (01:10:21):
Or is AW going to try to play against the
where every finish is obvious involving those two they're going
to advance and and I'm not saying that would be
a good thing, but I could see them. I could
see Tony Kahn going, Oh, everybody thinks Page and Omega
are gonna win every match and face each other in
the finals. That's how it's set up. We're just going
to show you can't you can't count on that. But
also come up with some sort of viable alternative to

(01:10:42):
justify it rather than just being quote unpredictable to your
own detriment. Is are you holding out not holding out?
Are you accounting for that as a possibility, or do
you think that's not that AW want wouldn't do that
based on what you've seen with them.

Speaker 3 (01:10:54):
Look, I wouldn't. I wouldn't mind if they did something else.
I mean, I don't think there's only one solution to
the way that you would set up this title shot
and do this tournament. So I mean, you could do
something else that would involve, you know, somebody getting eliminated
earlier and telling a different story. I don't. I don't
think that that you have to do it that way,
but I expect them to do that do it that
way just because it feels like the most obvious thing,

(01:11:17):
and AW doesn't go out of its way to try
to confuse people with the booking. I think the you know,
the match results you know pretty much across the board
make a lot of sense. There aren't a lot of
swerves and big surprises, and I think that's a positive.
You know, you don't need to be you know, serving
people all the time with with with match results. You know,
there's if people are anticipating something, there's a reason they're

(01:11:41):
anticipating something. That's because the television has built it up
to make you want to see a confrontation between Omega
and Page and to see how they would do if
they're forced to square off in a high profile situation.
And that's exactly what that is, and that's why people
would expect it to happen, because it's the logical next.

Speaker 1 (01:12:01):
And if you're a w B fan, you expect Kenyomega
to come to ringside and cheer on his former taking
partner in the semi finals battling someone to get to
the finals against Kenny, and that will distract Page and
then he'll get rolled up from behind and that'll screw
up the finals.

Speaker 3 (01:12:12):
The the you gotta have your distraction finishes.

Speaker 1 (01:12:15):
Yes, yes, okay, So then we go to big swell
Serena deep I believe was yeah, that was next. So
once this one of six minutes your thoughts.

Speaker 3 (01:12:26):
I thought it was I thought it was okay overall.
I thought that the uh that the the beginning of
the match is pretty good and it kind of fell
apart at the end. So he a tale of two matches.

Speaker 1 (01:12:40):
And then UH the John Moxley video package. Your thoughts
on on his UH video at the bar doing a
shot and talking about facing Lan's Archurn next week.

Speaker 2 (01:12:49):
I thought it was good.

Speaker 3 (01:12:49):
Yeah, just a good good homosegment.

Speaker 1 (01:12:51):
YEP, and then main event and UH postmatch angle if
anything more out of that Jericho wh and Hager against
her Pentaco and Luther.

Speaker 3 (01:13:00):
Yeah, I mean Luther was not very good. He was
he was very slow, a lot of the stuff was off,
so the match was not very good. But hey, I
mean the idea was clearly Jericho was during his thirtieth
anniversary here, so we'll let him, you know, pick his
opponent and working on somebody that he that he's known
for a very long period of time. And I think

(01:13:21):
it's you know, it's fine to have one match that
isn't as good.

Speaker 2 (01:13:25):
And I joked about the distraction finish, but that bothered
me that, like, yeah, the distraction finish at the end.
I mean, of all things, can't Jericho win like against
Luther and do it clean like that?

Speaker 1 (01:13:41):
Did he really need to have Sammy on the ring
apron to justify beating a team that, as Jim Ross
would say, has been on Dark forever.

Speaker 3 (01:13:48):
I just didn't think that was a distraction finish. I mean,
I get why you say that, but like, to me,
like in tag team matches, people can get involved with
other wrestlers, like a distraction finished to me, like has
now at this point because Deby does them. You know,
fifteen times a week has a very specific meaning, and
the meaning in B is two people are wrestling. One

(01:14:10):
person that is not involved in the match does something
that is so obvious and over the top that the
person in the ring should know better than to turn
around and look at them. But they turn around and
look at them, and then the person hits their move
and rolls them up from behind. This to me, this
didn't have the feel of like, well, Luthor would have
gotten him if not for somebody who wasn't involved distracting Luthor,

(01:14:33):
Luthor turning around and then that allowing the match the
move to happen. I thought it felt much more organic
to what was going on in the match, and I
saw the finish, and the finish to me was just
Jericho hits his move and pins Doctor Luther. So I didn't,
you know, watching the match, I didn't think of it
as a distraction finish, and I don't think the viewers
were signposted to think that that the finish was about

(01:14:57):
Luthor not being able to be beaten except for or
somebody else getting involved. I think the people watching more
likely to think, oh, Jericho beat him with his move.

Speaker 1 (01:15:05):
So am I imagining that Sammy stood on the ring
apron and Luther turned and knocked him off the ring apron,
and then that led to Jericho hitting his finisher the
Judas effect for the win.

Speaker 3 (01:15:16):
I guess. I guess, uh, yeah, I guess he wasn't
in the match. I think about it. I was just
thinking like, hey, there's all these people out there. Yeah,
they're all the Inner Circle people together. Yeah, I just
wasn't thinking it that way watching it. Maybe if I
watch it back, I'll think differently.

Speaker 1 (01:15:31):
But well, yeah, me to doubt it myself now because
I thought I thought that's what happened, and it just
came across says, well, Jericho's gonna at the Judas effect
on Luther, but we don't want them to do win clean,
so we'll have Luthor knocking the pesky Sammy off the
ring apron, right, and then when he turns around, he
gets hit with the Judas effect and loses, and it's.

Speaker 2 (01:15:49):
Like, why can't Luther just loose? I mean, it's not
a big deal.

Speaker 1 (01:15:53):
And I get, you know, it's like, oh, you know,
we don't want to barry Luther and whatever that everyone's
no one's gonna think about it afterwards. But I'm I'm
sort of in the mode of anything you can do,
it'll deliver clean finishes you should do and Luther's not
one of those exceptions where you want to play that
that hand that you should you know, play that card
that you should play infrequently at at most.

Speaker 3 (01:16:10):
I think the reason I wasn't thinking like that is
that like throughout the match, they were just fighting all
over the place, you know, they were out on the floor,
they were doing this, and that I wasn't even thinking
of it. It's like, you know, when you mentioned that,
I was thinking it was it was somebody involved in
the match, as opposed to h the person that wasn't
involved in the match. But yeah, I mean maybe maybe
people did take it that way, but I didn't, so

(01:16:32):
he didn't bother me. But yeah, I mean, certainly, if
the perception of the people watching was that sam May
Gavara saved Jericho in the match. That's not the way
you want to finish the match, regardless of whether you
want to give Luther a little something for the fact
that he is uh Jericho's longtime friend. So I think

(01:16:54):
in you know principle, we are the we're thinking the
same way. And after we three finished recording, I'm gonna go,
I'm gonna go give it another watch and see if
I if it's felt more like a distraction finished to
me watching it back.

Speaker 2 (01:17:07):
Yeah, okay, fair enough, so anything. Oh yeah, so the
angle with the clown and all that, anything you want
to say.

Speaker 3 (01:17:16):
I thought, I mean, it felt very b again, you know,
like the you know, the clown, the picture like as
soon as like because we've seen that in wrestling so
many times, Like okay, it's a picture of MGF, you know,
so like that, you know, that whole element did feel
very very dead b But I mean, hey, I mean,
the the positive of it is that they're telling you
these guys are headed for a collision. It's clear who

(01:17:38):
you're supposed to like, who you're not supposed to like,
and uh, that's what a heel turn should should be.

Speaker 1 (01:17:44):
Yeah, all right, let's go in and shift to oh,
which was a better than two shows this week?

Speaker 3 (01:17:49):
Oh? AW for sure? I mean yeah, and I like
to AW a lot and NXT two I thought was
I thought it was okay, but yeah, I thought AW
was much better.

Speaker 1 (01:18:04):
You don't have to wait for the way Keller Prog
Wrestling post show to find out what I thought of
Monday Night Raw and SmackDown. Each week, you can check
out my reports that are updated live throughout Raw and
SmackDown at pwtorch dot com. My written report will tell
you what's happening in detail in case you missed the show,
and it will also analyze key segments and give my
random thoughts quips on what I am watching as it airs.

(01:18:26):
So check it out every Monday night and Tuesday night
at pwtorch dot com. That also applies to WWE payperviews.
I cover those live at pw torch dot com with
a detailed written report with star ratings, and of course
you can find other TV reports from other contributors to
pw torch such as NXT, ROH, Impact Wrestling and more.
Check it out pwtorch dot com your first stop for

(01:18:49):
TV and pay per.

Speaker 2 (01:18:50):
View written reports. All right, so we'll move to a SmackDown.

Speaker 1 (01:19:04):
Now we opened up with Roman Rains and Paul Hayman
coming out Rain still wearing the show up and win
T shirt. I love this, Cole says, I got a
different vibe from Rains on Sunday, more of a mean streak.
It's like the announcers are finally coming around where they've
been h They were on embargo for a long time
where they couldn't acknowledge that Rains had changed, and now

(01:19:25):
apparently they're loosening up on that and they can actually
acknowledge what you know is the core of the angle,
which is Roman is not the same person he once was.
So yeah, your your thoughts on on what they did
as a follow up and a setup on this match
or on this.

Speaker 3 (01:19:37):
Sit Wait, so wait, which part of the show.

Speaker 2 (01:19:43):
UH the the opening of SmackDown for for Rains and
Jay Sorry.

Speaker 3 (01:19:48):
Okay, yeah, because they did a number of different UH
angles throughout the UH throughout the show. I mean I
thought I thought through throughout the UH throughout the show. Wait,
where was the key part of that? Was the I
was thinking that the no, okay, no, I was thinking
about last week You're you're right? Because then they built
into the j match with Uh with AJ styles, I thought,

(01:20:09):
I mean, I thought it was more excellent. He'll work
from Roman Reigns. I think he's uh, he's a menacing,
believable villain, and I think they're telling a strong story
with him UH. And I thought the mic work that
he did here, as you correctly noted within the first seven,
which I got confused by momentarily.

Speaker 1 (01:20:31):
For those who don't know, Todd did have a nap
break before the show and he's still waking up, was
was a uh.

Speaker 3 (01:20:41):
Was was really good in terms of his his uh,
his mic work. In terms of ja USO, I feel
like you've been a little down on j US's performances
thus far, and this week I thought he was a
definite weakness because Roman was so nasty and demeaning to
him that I thought Jay needed to be stronger in

(01:21:02):
his response, like there's no way, there's no way I'm
going to take that from you. And I said, I
thought it came across a little bit too weak, a
little bit of vacillating in his answer, and I thought
that made him seem sort of like a child compared
to Roman Reigns. And I don't think that that is
what you want given that there's already an imbalance and power,

(01:21:26):
and that sort of accentuates it. As far as the
thing they did afterwards, I'm cool with Jay getting the
win over aj styles. I have a feeling that won't
hold up well as far as their relative positioning in
a few months, but I think Jay could use some
add of credibility for a second match with Roman.

Speaker 1 (01:21:43):
Raiins watching this, I thought, I don't know if this
applies as an allegory or not, but when he said that,
like the whole point was this was not given to me.
I had to work my ass off to be the
tribal chief, and it comes across to me like the

(01:22:04):
Rain's heel character and what he's saying about Jay is
Jay representing the fans and Roman embracing and sort of
manifesting into what fans I'm as is a guy who
felt entitled. With Rains defending his tribal chief, i e.
Top top guy Vince mcmaon's choice to be centerpiece act

(01:22:26):
positioning and the fans pushing back against it, with Rain
saying this was not given to me. I worked my
ass off and a plays off of when Rains was
asked about, you know, criticism of him main inventing wresumani
and he's like, well, look back at all the resumanias
I may invent it. And he sees his push as
evidence justifying his own push, like almost literally the definition
of begging the question, and his heel character is sort

(01:22:48):
of leaning into that, going I earned the tribal chief
status and people are resistant to it, including you, Jay.
But I didn't get this handed to me.

Speaker 2 (01:22:58):
I worked for it.

Speaker 1 (01:22:59):
I feel like a lot of the rains heel character
and maybe Paul Ham has got a role in this
is meant to kind of tap into the journey that
we've been on for six years with him going into
this with the tribal chief thing being also I earn
my top top guy status.

Speaker 2 (01:23:12):
Am I reading too much into it? You think?

Speaker 1 (01:23:13):
Has that crossed your mind? Do you think that's obvious?
And goes without saying.

Speaker 3 (01:23:20):
I'd want to go watch the promo again. I feel
like there's an element of that in there, But I
think you may be reading a little bit too much
into it in the sense that what they're doing with
USO seems more straightforward to me, which is that he's
basically the king of the Samoans, you know, like he's
you know, he's got his family here, but he wants

(01:23:40):
it to be clear that he's the top dog of
the group and nobody should be. There shouldn't be any
confusion about that. And that to me feels a more
personal story than about him fighting for the top spot
in overall, because I mean, he isn't. I don't think
after this he's going to be wanting, you know, Drew
Mack can hire the fiend to you know, to proclaim

(01:24:03):
him to be the chief. I think that is very
specific to Jay Uso. So while I think you know
this in some ways plays off the longer history of
Roman reigns and the Way's position in the company, I
think right now this is more more of a family
related story.

Speaker 1 (01:24:23):
Yeah, and I watched this, and that's why I'm sort
of self doubting, even though and I present the three
options not really knowing other than wow, this strikes me
as a happy coincidence at the very least because I
could imagine this storyline happening without that real life history.
You know, if Rains was an embraced babyface and the
fans loved him and he turned heel and then he's doing.
You could imagine them doing this angle with Jay. It
fits the family thing. But when he tells, Jay, I

(01:24:46):
love you more than your brother loves you. And all
I wanted to do was raise you up. And all
you had to do was acknowledge me as a tribal chief. Again,
I could be reading to much in it, but it
almosounds like Rains is just saying or Hayman or whoever
scripting for and suggesting this in Rains like yeah that works.

Speaker 3 (01:25:01):
For me is.

Speaker 2 (01:25:02):
All you had to do was accept me, and I'd
have been great as your lead babyface. But you didn't.
You didn't acknowledge me as the top guy. And I
just wanted to raise you up.

Speaker 1 (01:25:10):
I wanted to make the shows better, have great main
event matches, make WWE a great form of entertainment. You
just had to embrace me, acknowledge me. It wasn't my birthright.
You guys acted like it was my birthright.

Speaker 2 (01:25:21):
It wasn't.

Speaker 1 (01:25:22):
It wasn't given to me. I had to work my
ass off, and you've seen it the whole way. I
mean it parallels. I could imagine this inner dialogue in
Romans had as He's like, why are the fans pushing
back against me.

Speaker 2 (01:25:33):
I earned it.

Speaker 1 (01:25:33):
You think I was given this and I wasn't. So
it's at least to me, a happy coincidence that makes
this angle work more.

Speaker 3 (01:25:39):
Yeah, I see the parallel you're drawing there.

Speaker 2 (01:25:41):
Yeah, So what do you think of going back to
having a match at helen us out.

Speaker 3 (01:25:47):
I'm fine with it. I mean, as we talked about
the night of the last paper of your Class of
the Champions, I thought that, you know, the way they
were setting it up, it seemed like it was set
up to build another match, and you know that that
was That was fine by me because I think they've
done good work throughout and it feels like the story
hasn't been fleshed out, even if it feels kind of

(01:26:10):
anti climatic from the standpoint of who's going to win.
But I mean, look, I mean, like the one of
the big problems with deb is not that, like it's
too obvious who's winning the matches. So yeah, I'm I'm
not that concerned about that. It's like, you know, an
overarching issue.

Speaker 1 (01:26:28):
What do you think of Jays are just match quality
wise against aj certainly you know, the biggest singles match
to Ja's career other than Roman on Sunday.

Speaker 2 (01:26:35):
But yeah, in terms of getting to kind of show
what he can do.

Speaker 3 (01:26:40):
I thought it was good, but it didn't jump out
as me it's particularly good. It was. It was what
I would expect with a match with jus Own and
aj styles. But I mean to be fair, I mean,
like deb television matches aren't really designed to jump off
the page like I can't. I can't remember the last
match on raw NXT that I think of our NXTVR

(01:27:01):
SmackDown where I thought like, wow, that was a fantastic match.
I mean there's you know, there's a lot of pretty
good matches, you know, some good matches, the occasional very
good matches, but like not a ton of like where
they're trying to be blow away.

Speaker 9 (01:27:24):
I'm Kelly Wells, host of PWT Talks NXT, the longest
running NXT podcast Anywhere. Join me along with Nate Lindberg,
Bruce Lee, Hazelwood, and special guests live every Tuesday night,
just minutes after NXT, where we cover the good, the bad,
and the ugly on the way to becoming a star
in WWE. Check us out live on YouTube or stream

(01:27:44):
later wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 1 (01:27:58):
Then Sammy Saye backstage both icy title belts, the the
scab belt as he called it, and the real one.
He dropped the scab belt in the trash and said
the fans were to blame for going along with with
him being stripped of the title.

Speaker 2 (01:28:10):
Any thoughts on that?

Speaker 3 (01:28:12):
Nope?

Speaker 1 (01:28:13):
All right, Otis John Morrison Otis wins in two minutes, Todd,

Speaker 3 (01:28:20):
Nope?

Speaker 2 (01:28:20):
Do you have any thoughts on the rest of SmackDown?

Speaker 3 (01:28:22):
Sure, go for it.

Speaker 2 (01:28:26):
No, Chad Gable, Chad Seamous beats Chad Gable, Any thoughts
on that? I'm gonna go for three three in a row? No, okay,
I saw that. I saw that on the sheet.

Speaker 1 (01:28:34):
I'm like, okay, this, this will be. This will be
three in a row. All right, So Kevin Owen Show,
I'm thinking you do have some thoughts on on Kevin
Owen Show with the shop on house?

Speaker 2 (01:28:44):
Yeah, what do you think?

Speaker 3 (01:28:45):
Yeah? I think the Alexis stuff continues to be cheesy
and stupid and childish. I mean, Variety did that survey
of why fans have left wrestling, and the number one
answer is the products to cartoonish And this is precisely
the sort of cartoonish nonsense. I think a huge subset
of potential viewers aren't gonna like. And Alexa may be
a good actress in general, but I don't think she's
a good actress here. I just think this is bad,

(01:29:05):
bad stuff like Alexa being you know, I don't even know,
like hypnotized by the Fiend. It's it's it's stupid.

Speaker 1 (01:29:14):
Do you have a hunch where Ko when the Fiend
go is a feud and do they end up on
the same brand and it's a long feud or is
this just sort of a quick transition during this this
kind of transitional period before the draft.

Speaker 3 (01:29:27):
I think this is just a short term thing to
help get over the Fiend. So I think Fiend's just
going to beat Kevin Owens. As far as whether they
end up on the same brand, I'm not sure that
they know yet. The Fiend I would strongly suspect they
know where they want him. Kevin Owens, I think is
probably one of the people where they could put him
either place. They're not really concerned about it. So I
think this is just a program to fill the time

(01:29:47):
right now and afterwards. Whether Kevin Owens ends up on
the same show as The Fiend would would largely just
be arbitrary. I don't think. I don't think that they're
going to make their decisions in the draft based on
this little, this little side program. But we'll see. I
could be wrong and they'll do a longer thing. But
that's all interesting thing.

Speaker 1 (01:30:09):
Uh, this might seem for people listening to you for
a long time an obvious question, But do you think
Kevin Owens could be in a could be a hugely
more useful top star right now had he been given
the push and the framing and the resources that they
fed into Bray White and The Fiend of the Firefly

(01:30:29):
Phone House.

Speaker 3 (01:30:30):
Of course, I mean, but I mean that's true with
a lot of people. But yeah, I mean Kevin Owens
is uh is is very talented, and there's uh, you know,
there's an alternate reality where somebody else's booking and Kevin
Owens is a is a not just a star, but
a difference making star.

Speaker 1 (01:30:49):
And is Kevin Owens uh sort of resigned to it.
He re signed as he renewed making good money.

Speaker 3 (01:30:55):
And that tells you all you need to know, because
I mean, he he resigned that thing. While you know,
a w had uh you know, had had been rising
up and so that was you know, that was on
his radar. And he knows those guys. I mean he's
worked with, uh, you know, with pretty much all of them,
and so you know, he uh, he's content to you know,
to to make his money and do his sing in
Dada B. And he you know, he grew up a

(01:31:16):
AA B fan and he's uh, you know, he's he's
content to do that. I mean, there's been a you know,
there's if there is a shift in the attitudes of
the people in the business, it's going to take time
because for you know, for pretty much everybody that's in
the wrestling business right now, they grew up with the

(01:31:38):
idea and when they first became enamored with wrestling, they
grew up with the idea that DEDA B was the
major league and now is the ultimate goal. And you know,
so many people they worked on the Ennis, and they
worked you know, overseas, and they worked in all these
different places to get to da B. And it's only
been a relatively recent phenomenon that people became so disillusioned

(01:31:58):
with the way that B uses to talent and a
competitor rose up and gave wrestlers much more creative freedom
to do what they want to do and to do
satisfying work, and and for that matter, New Japan rose
up overseas to a major league level that people could

(01:32:19):
start to think, my ultimate goal is more people at
the top, you know, top level that could you know,
that could make it wherever start to think, well, no, actually,
the thing that I want most is to is to
work in in aw Or or New Japan rather than
b and that was you know, that was not the
case until relatively recently. And we'll see what happens over

(01:32:40):
the next five years. But it seems to me a
very open question, and it's one that carries a lot
of relevance because as we've seen over the last couple
of years, you know, particularly with Moxley, but also with
people like like FTR and and UH and rus seven
and other people, if you want to work somewhere else,

(01:33:00):
you can make it happen. You know, you're not a
you know, you're not an indentured servant. And so you know,
if if the you know, the the pendulum swings and
there are more people in the wrestling business at the
highest levels in terms of talent, that are more interested
in working outside of B thand B. That will significantly

(01:33:21):
change the balance of power within the industry. And that's
that's gonna be a big story to monitor over the
next five years because people are going to be making
that on an individual basis. And you know, some people
like Moxley have you know, decided to leave. Some people
like Owens and Randy Orton. I don't know how strong
interest was in Orton, but he've resigned either way, decided

(01:33:44):
to go the other way. And there's a lot of
people that are gonna have their contracts come up and
we'll see what they do.

Speaker 2 (01:33:51):
Yes, yes, we will. Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:33:55):
I was thinking about, you know what Kevin Ow's gounda
meant to a W two had he gone there, and
you know just what a just where he could be
compared to where he is now and where he might
be once this theme feud is over too, And it's
just it's that, you know, for all the reasons you
laid out that rest, that's gonna be a consideration of
wrestlers as they look at the landscape changing too, and

(01:34:15):
the fact that aw just on seems to be on
solid ground, and it's gonna be interesting how this how
this this chapter goes, and the next Kevin Owens is
gonna have the next person in a Kevin Owens position
can help change the course of things, and and yeah,
it's gonna be fun to watch, all right, Lindsay Torodo
Grand Medal League Matt Riddle team up against Baron Corbyn
Czarro and Shinske.

Speaker 2 (01:34:38):
Riddle and LHV. When this one any.

Speaker 3 (01:34:39):
Thoughts, I thought they might have done more damage to
Riddle this week than last week, because Sirius stars can
lose matches and vow to do better. But I don't.
You don't want a Sirius star to show up the
next week hanging out with undercar losers, like cutting goofy
bro jokes with them after losing to a wrestler. Should
have bet. I mean I I watched this Riddle and
I thought, that's not somebody worth investing in. Whether he

(01:35:01):
beats Cesarro or not. I thought he just, you know,
he seemed resigned and contented to be, you know, a
lower card geek and the presentation, and you know that's
that doesn't feel like somebody worth investing in. I also
was kind of sympathetic towards Callisto, like having his friends
talk shit about him behind his back and not inviting
him out there with him, like you know, like you know,

(01:35:21):
that's not that's not cool, like bullying your your buddy
and making fun of him to interviewers. Shame on, shame on, Lean,
say Dorado.

Speaker 1 (01:35:31):
I did get a kick out of Meta Leak telling
telling Riddle that his to B career is a marathon,
not a sprint, and Riddle's like, bro, like it just
changed his outlook on life. I agree with everything you
said in terms of his framing, but I was I
found that pretty fun. All right, So let's see Carmela

(01:35:53):
is revealed to be the mystery blonde all along. Any
thoughts on on try to recast her in this way? Nope,
all right, Slasha Banks go to promo any thoughts on that.

Speaker 3 (01:36:04):
I thought that she was unlikable again here, And you know,
there was the you know, the the initial turn, which
I thought was problematic in and of itself. But like,
I just like, I'm she's not doing anything to me
that makes me like her. She, you know, the she
comes across as sort of a delusional, unlikable heel herself,

(01:36:27):
and it's I think it's a terrible sign that they're
already going to the Bailey Sasha Banks on match on
television already, so they can get to garbage finished number
one out of you know, one hundred and thirty eight
of them as quickly as possible. I just think it's
a bad you know, the formula of just doing the
matches over and over and over on television with a
bunch of bad finishes and then doing it on pay

(01:36:47):
per view in the end, it's I just think it's
a bad formula. And here they are again. I think
wrestling is much better if people are beating different people
on television and then the people that are winning a
bunch of matches then wrestle each other in the big match,
and you build anticipation for and it feels important. I
think that's how you make people feel like stars, and

(01:37:09):
that's when they'll tune into the show more and their
mentality is clearly, we've just got to match up the
people that we present as the strongest as much as
we can on television, thinking like that's more star power.
But the problem is when you do it that way
every week, you just match up the people that you're
pushing the most over and over and over again. They
just don't feel like very big stars because they're always

(01:37:29):
you know that there's this wishy, washy back and forth
element where nobody feels really particularly special, and there aren't
stakes in the matches, so people don't get elevated through
the through the through the match results, and it becomes
like a you know, a commonplace everyday thing to see
them matched up against each other, and all of those
things work against the goal of making them feel like stars.
And so yeah, you're you're giving them, You're giving what

(01:37:53):
feels like the biggest thing you can this week. But
as a result, in four weeks and in eight weeks,
nothing feels particularly important, just like it doesn't feel particularly
important now and you can't get a bump out of it,
whereas if you didn't do those every week, yes, this
week might feel negligibly less important, but in four weeks
still feel like bigger stars, and eight weeks still feel

(01:38:13):
like bigger stars, and twelve weeks still feel like bigger stars.
At that point, you can actually see some you know,
some some diffidends paying off, but they don't do that.

Speaker 1 (01:38:24):
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(01:39:06):
house shows in markets on a semi frequent basis, and
getting fans motivated to go to their arena on a Friday, Saturday,
Sunday night, and that was the driving force beyond the business.
I know they've been doing this, you know, longer than
just the co the pandemic era here, and it even
predates to a degree the w B network era where

(01:39:26):
they're sort of like this baked in fan base that
just you know, they let let the money roll over.
If they feel like it's not worth canceling. That's different
than motivating someone actually spend money. But you know, how
different would it be if the business model was more
nineteen eighties?

Speaker 3 (01:39:41):
Oh okay, I thought you were asking a different question
till the very end there, because they've been doing the
house show model beforehand, and you know, like before the
COVID era, and at that point they were just doing
the same thing. So you know, yes, they gave the
same match on television every week, but they also gave
those in the house shows and you're just sort of
going to the house shows to see the you know,
the circus come to town. So I don't think it

(01:40:02):
plays a role at all. And you know last year
versus this year. Yeah, but in the eighties when.

Speaker 1 (01:40:08):
They were like or nineties, even before you know, pre
network where even pay per view is on a monthly basis,
it's sort of getting people to part with their money
based on what you're doing right now and TV compared
to now, which just has more of a feeling it's
based around, wow, look at all this money we're int
for TV rights and and we sort of have the
network numbers, but baked in we you know, we see
an EBB.

Speaker 2 (01:40:24):
And flow, but there's less of that just immediate.

Speaker 1 (01:40:27):
We can make a difference if we do things well
this week or if we hold off and build to
something two months from now that will really pop.

Speaker 3 (01:40:34):
Yeah, I mean the the the business goes better when
you are building up towards things that feel important down
the line. And that was a you know, a different,
you know, different setting in the in the eighties where
you were trying the television you were filling was as
much an advertisement for the house shows as anything. And

(01:40:54):
you're not going to be that now, nor should you be,
But that I think there's still much more value in
the idea of of saving things up and making and hey,
look what I'm when I'm describing in terms of like
the booking philosophy, it doesn't even necessarily have to pay
off in terms of like a pay per view as

(01:41:14):
opposed to like a as opposed to a you know,
or a house show or or anything else. Like when
I'm describing in terms of the booking of protecting people
having to beat other people and then making the matches
feel important. If you want to put the ultimate matches
on television, then that's fine too, right, Like, but just
build it over time. So if you if your idea
is like television is what rules now, we want the

(01:41:36):
big Bailey versus Sasha Banks match to be on on
free television, you know, then then fine, start building up
right now, get them both wins, go back and forth
with the with the you know, with with them with
them getting wins, having the storylines advance, and having them
getting close to each other, cutting promos back and forth
on each other. And then you announce that there's going

(01:41:57):
to be this big episode of smack Down. You give
a name or something, and then that's the big payoff.
Somebody wins and that has big consequences for where they go,
and then you start building up again. If you're going
to do a rematch, you build that up for you know,
four or five weeks after that on you know, on
a different television show that you also feel, you know
that you also make important. And then you start giving away.
You start having finishes to the matches so that people

(01:42:20):
know when you advertise match on television, you're gonna get
a finish. It's not just gonna be one of these
garbage deals where nothing's resolved. At that point, you're still
having the same benefits of making people anticipate something that's
coming up and adding consequences to the winners and losers,
which then allows you to elevate people and frame them
is more important because you have winners constantly moving up

(01:42:41):
and up and up and up. Well, the loser sort
of move off to the side and then have to
work their way back up. And so you've got this
continual flow that keeps people invested in everything that's happening
on the show and adds consequences and importance to everything
because everyone's always fighting to try to rise up to
the top as supposed to just sort of you know,
going in a circle back and worth with the one
person they're feuding with. Right now, I've got some great

(01:43:02):
hand gusters going on, by the way, as I'm doing this.

Speaker 2 (01:43:05):
I fully imagined it, by the way, so we're good everyone.

Speaker 3 (01:43:08):
You could join it, So, you know, I think that
that sort of formula can you know, it's going to
work a lot better regardless of whether it's ultimately building
up to a pay review or not. Like if you
if you want to do them on television, just do
that on television. Fine, But the key is that you
are telling a story that that builds towards clear plot

(01:43:31):
points as opposed to everybody feeling like they're running in place.

Speaker 2 (01:43:35):
Yeah, yep, all right, good?

Speaker 1 (01:43:37):
Uh then made event time Sammy Zay and Jeff Hardy.
Sammy retains the icy title. Your Thoughts Todd was a
good match. All right, all right, we'll go to anything
else from respect on that I that I left out
that you have something to say on, or anything else
you want to say you have no comment on?

Speaker 3 (01:43:54):
Did you just say anything? I want to say that
they have no comment on?

Speaker 1 (01:43:57):
Yeah, with there a segment that I didn't bring up,
and you're like, oh, and on that segment or that
that then, yette, I have nothing to say.

Speaker 2 (01:44:04):
I have nothing to add, Okay, all right.

Speaker 1 (01:44:06):
So moving on to this past Monday's Raw. We had
the opening pretaped segment, one of the longer segments that
I can remember to open raw that wasn't you know
in the ring, either a match or a segment pre taped.
Randy Orton walk through what all the various legends did
to him and then and then how he got even
kind of re enacting what.

Speaker 2 (01:44:25):
He saw with his night vision glasses. Your Your thoughts taught.

Speaker 3 (01:44:28):
On on that I thought it was good. I mean,
I know a lot of people seem to find it ponderous,
but I thought that, you know, he did a good
job of you know, of laying out the story and
and and doing as good of a job as he
could of making another rematch feel like something that uh,

(01:44:49):
that is, you know, is something that you want to
see in as a natural flow of what they've been doing.
So yeah, I thought it was a good start to
the show.

Speaker 2 (01:44:57):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:44:57):
Yeah, I mean, if you're gonna do what he did,
you got to follow up on it. I have a
larger question. I like it too, but I have a
larger question. Randy Orton went into a back room with
night vision goggles, cut the lights and beat all these
people up, And I mean, we have to step back
and think about what we've just baked in to accept
we've baked in and accepted that. Randy Orton sat down

(01:45:19):
with WWE's production staff, and budget money went into letting
Randy Orton tell this story. And he wasn't suspended, he
wasn't fined. There's no authority figure reprimanding him.

Speaker 2 (01:45:31):
He didn't get fired, he didn't get arrested.

Speaker 1 (01:45:35):
He did something so outside the bounds of like, you know,
using a brass knuckles to win a match, which in
and of itself, you know, kind of should be a
big deal. In a other sport that would be a
very big deal, and wrestling I've accepted, well, if you
can get if the ref doesn't see it at the moment,
even if the camera catches that, we just move on.
But this feels like at some point, Dot, you know,
I think they would benefit from stepping back and going

(01:45:57):
if we want all this to matter, we can sort
of entertain people by doing it, But if we wanted
to really matter, shouldn't there be ramifications that match the actions?
And this goes even to what I said about Tony
Schavani earlier, going well, yeah, you know, they super kicked
me a sixty something guy in the face for no reason.
But God, I've always liked them. They're really good tag team,
you know, I like four star matches. I'm gonna forgive

(01:46:19):
them for that. You extinguish with them. Who knows what
the Bucks are doing? But with this, the idea is
get Randy heal Heat and you have the promotion just
basically going all right, Randy, let's turn this into a
eight minute segment. We'll put a lot of production into it,
and we'll also give you a world title rematch.

Speaker 3 (01:46:35):
Yeah, you're much more of like the law and order
candidate when it comes to uh to pro wrestling than
I am in terms of like wanting there to be
a repercusions to things from a punishment standpoint, I to me,
boiling down.

Speaker 2 (01:46:52):
To me, I'm more a rule of law than law
of order. But okay, rule of law.

Speaker 3 (01:46:56):
That's that's fine. They're more rule of laws, they're like opposite,
so uh more more more of that than me to me,
like that criticism boils down to the idea that it
doesn't feel well, I shouldn't speak for you, like, do

(01:47:17):
you do you think it is fair to say that
that criticism The reason why that stands out to you
is it feels unrealistic that someone would do all that
stuff and you would not have some sort of pushback
from some sort of authority. Figure. Is that is that
is that the key to the whole thing or is
it just like a virtue thing that like.

Speaker 2 (01:47:37):
Oh, it's not a virtue thing. No it's not.

Speaker 1 (01:47:38):
It's not a virtue thing. But I would say that's
the second. It's a key element, but secondary if you're
if you're going to go to the trouble to do it,
what's the reason you're doing it. It's to create a
storyline that fills your TV show with drama and entertainment.
And I would argue I am arguing I would just

(01:48:00):
that I would do it, I am doing it. That
you're mitigating the effect by treating it as normal course
of business. If you're gonna have Randy turn off the
lights with the night vision goggles and beat up all
these old guys, and it's sort of like, well, want
we did it because we want you to want to
see Drew McIntyre kick his ass.

Speaker 2 (01:48:21):
That's why you do that.

Speaker 1 (01:48:22):
The whole point of giving heels heat is because it's
wrong what they're doing, and you should be motivated to
see the baby face get revenge. That is the whole
point of doing it in the first place. Unless you're
just there to just do things that don't matter. They're
entertaining in the moment, So when the promotion doesn't react
to it, you're extinguishing the whole point of doing it
in the first place. It's to me, it's similar to
when a heel cheats to win and the lead announcer says, well,

(01:48:45):
you do what you got to do to win. It's like, well,
the reason he cheated to win was to put heat
on the heel, and now you are actively extinguishing that
with a comment that says you'd be a fool not
to cheat to win because you should do what you
should do whatever it takes to win. And that then
transfers the babyface. That transfers to then the babyface being
a fool for not using the same tactic. So in

(01:49:06):
this case, when it's just business as usual, after Randy
did something so heinous, out of the rate.

Speaker 3 (01:49:11):
This business as usual though, like I mean the stuff
that to flare last month was much worse.

Speaker 2 (01:49:16):
Well that's a problem.

Speaker 1 (01:49:17):
I mean, I'm saying this is the latest example of
there should you if if wa be's frustrated that and
maybe they're not, but if they're frustrated that, hey, we
have Woo Grandy to do all this stuff and then
people still pop for him because he's a star. I'm
arguing there's more money in there's there's a more effective
there's more effectiveness in getting people to sign up for
the network and watch your show week after week. If

(01:49:38):
it seems like when heals do something wrong. It's not
just for entertainment, and no one takes this seriously. It's
actually within the story we create in our ecosystem for
the hope from opening the closing credits, there's this world
in which that is wrong and the people in charge
are appalled and there's a reaction from the authority figures
to such actions.

Speaker 2 (01:49:58):
Otherwise, why do it? What's the point of doing it,
What's the point of trying to get feels heat if
by the next week what they did is treated as
business as usual.

Speaker 3 (01:50:08):
Yeah, there's so many problems with the show. I guess.
I guess sort of like it's sort of Chicken or
the Egg thing, because like, yes, if you sold some
of these angles very strongly, that it would put more
of of a of an emphasis on it. But the
key is that they are shooting these angles constantly, right, So,

(01:50:31):
like if you got really upset at Randy Orton and
gave him like a big suspension for this, then as
point out, you would have to get like a much
bigger sentence for what he did rouk Flair last month.
There was what what Bailey did to Sasha Banks, you know,
like that should have been something that should have been
punished in a really big way. The way that the
way that that shame has attacked Biggie on a car was,

(01:50:54):
you know, was just terrible. There should have been big
consequences to it. And then when Biggie did the same thing,
you'd have to be you know, to be fair, you'd
have to you know, to respond in the same way.

Speaker 2 (01:51:02):
There, And that's a chicken egg thing.

Speaker 1 (01:51:04):
Are they doing it so often because they don't make
any of it matter, so they have to just do
more of it?

Speaker 3 (01:51:09):
Well that's true as well, But what I meant was that,
like the in terms of like what the problem is,
the problem, you know is there seems to be more
just like they're doing too many angles as opposed to
like they haven't sold the angles big enough, because I
don't know how you would work in a you know,

(01:51:30):
a punishment regime in a in a in a show
that has so much you know, constant you know, gigantic
angles all the time. Not to mention the Fiend, I mean,
like the Fiend should have been you know, sentenced, you know,
sentenced to jail like many times over now with all
the terrible things he's done. So yeah, I mean I
feel like the show doesn't feel like it exists in

(01:51:54):
a believable in a believable world. But how you begin
to make it do so more? Now, there's so many
different directions you can go on to try to accomplish
that goal.

Speaker 10 (01:52:11):
I'm Chris Maitland, I'm Justin McClelland we host Wrestling Coast
to Coast, a podcast on independent wrestling.

Speaker 7 (01:52:17):
Every week, Chris and I review a different show or
talk about important topics from around the indie wrestling world.

Speaker 10 (01:52:22):
Learn about the hot underground stars and the future main eventors.
For anyone else, you can reach us at Torchcoast to
Coast at gmail dot com and me on Blue Sky
at Mind of Maitland. You can reach me at Blue
Sky at Justin McClelland find the show on your PW
Torch Dailycast podcast feed, search PW tors on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,
or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Speaker 5 (01:52:43):
Also stream the latest shows on pwtorch dot com.

Speaker 1 (01:52:51):
And if they had an authority figure And this doesn't
solve the larger issue what you just said, which is
even just in the context of one to our program
or a two or three week period. So many things
are happening, why isolate this one? And I'm isolating this
one because it's what we're talking about. And it stood
out to me because there it wasn't a wrestler given
time on the microphone. It was a wrestler who had
this production time given to him by the wrestling company

(01:53:11):
to produce a video gleefully re enacting what he did,
and then later in the same show he's given a
world title match. What you can do is have opened
up the show with a William Regal like authority figure
saying what he did last week is heynus. We will
not allow that he's been suspended for ninety days. We're
going to reevaluate whether he should even work here after
what he did. And again, this should have been the

(01:53:32):
reaction to many other things. But had they done this
many other things, they won't have to do them as
often because the things when they did, I'm would have
more of a punch. But then you have Drew McIntyre do.
And this is going back to wrestling I grew up
with in the seventies and eighties, and I don't think
the clock has run out on this being the logical
effective thing to do, which is Drew McIntyre come out
there and go up to the William Regal like figure
and say, I want this guy in the cell. I

(01:53:53):
feel somewhat personally responsible for what happened. He explains why
he put these people in this vulnerable position. He should
have had their back sooner.

Speaker 2 (01:54:00):
Whatever.

Speaker 1 (01:54:00):
You should have seen it coming, knowing what Randy was like.
You can take other approaches, but in the end, beg
the authority figure, let me get my hands on him
in the cage. Don't suspend him. And I know that
worked for me when I was a fan before doing
the torch. That was like, that totally explained it. The
authority figure gives in says, yes, you get that match
were not. I will not suspend him, And that makes

(01:54:21):
it seem like the greater punishment than being fired or
suspended or fined is having to spend time with Lee
Babyface hero in locked in a cage, get the crap
beat out of you. And that seems to be a
solution in this particular instance, even if it doesn't solve
the larger issue of they, you know, have done this
a lot, and they can't do that every single time
they do this.

Speaker 3 (01:54:39):
Yeah, but that's the issue. Is like, I don't know,
like how I don't know that you're tackling sort of
the the larger issue by having, you know, more of
a focus on punishments.

Speaker 1 (01:54:51):
I feel like the solid in place of a quarter pounder,
even if it's just once a week, is better than
just not ever having a healthy salad.

Speaker 3 (01:55:02):
I don't know. Yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:55:05):
Yeah, yeah, if.

Speaker 1 (01:55:06):
Something takes tend the food and if somebody's just going
to continue to abuse their body and you're like, well,
let's sit them down and let's just you know, we'll
make dinner and we'll make sure it's really healthy, and
you're like, well.

Speaker 2 (01:55:14):
What good is that going to do?

Speaker 1 (01:55:15):
I mean, it's something and in this case at least
would show un aware to me, It would show an
awareness by WWB that there is another way to do
this and having something. So I just don't think it's
too late to rain this in a little bit and
make things matter more when you do them. So you
have to do them less often, and you can start
this week, you can start next week, but any week

(01:55:37):
is fine, but start making it seem like when a
heels going for massive heel heat, why else would he
do what he did? Make sure that it's not just
treated like Tony Shavanni treated getting super kicked as Oh yeah,
but it's Randy, Oh it's the best.

Speaker 3 (01:55:50):
The thing, I'm just I'm just not convinced that that
is like the route towards cleaning up so many of
these issues. Like I just the det to B system,
there's so many flaws to it. And the reason I'm
hesitating is like it's sort of difficult to even like
like breach this gigantic like cloud of problems. But like

(01:56:11):
I to me, like when I think of like the bigger,
bigger things going on, I look at the show where
everyone's talking the same and acting the same, so it
doesn't feel like it's like it's like a it's like
a living, breathing place. It just nothing feels real about it.
And then you've got these like just like regimented angles,

(01:56:32):
every every you know, every you know, every segment, one
after another after another, so none of it feels again
like a like a believable world. And these people come
out there and they give their scripted promos that don't
feel like people actually talking, and you have these people
that are losing all the time in a way that
makes them feel not like stars in their presentation and

(01:56:53):
don't feel like a big deal. And then you have
the same people restling each other every week with these
contrived finishes that don't feel authentic and don't feel like
anybody's actually winning or losing, and just feel like ways
to get out of giving finishes to matches, and the
same people rest each other every week and every week
and every week. And I then, I, you know, I
look at this sort of like you know, this this

(01:57:14):
sort of broken system, and I think, like, you know,
you're talking about like just like them selling angles more
through authority figures. I just it feels to me disconnected
from like the sort of like the I mean it
created like I mean you can sort of piket all
these different things and sort of say which one of
these is more important or which of these is is

(01:57:35):
less important. When I look at it, that doesn't feel
to me like at the center of what's going on
as a problem. It just feels like sort of like
a side a side issue that isn't really gonna get
at the heart of of of of what's going on
very closely.

Speaker 1 (01:57:49):
Yeah, And I guess i'd counter just say the biggest
angle right now in ros Randy or Andrew McIntyre and
how they execute it is symptomatic of the mindset that
they bring to their TV show on a weekly basis.
And I think this fits into revealing what their mindset is,
which is not which is disconnected from going back to

(01:58:10):
my original question a while back, which is disconnected from
what should we be doing to get people to want
to spend their time and money on our product? And
I think this fits into that. And you might have
two things higher or four things higher, but on a
list of eight key things, but I think this is
one of the key things, which is if you're going
to go to the it's it's like if you're going
to go to the trouble to make your rest of.

Speaker 3 (01:58:30):
Yeah, I guess, I guess. I'm not convinced it's one
of the key things.

Speaker 1 (01:58:33):
Ultimately, I'm not Yeah, yeah, I get yeah, I mean,
I just think it it's sort of is. But that's
clear from I'm approaching this having doing doing gigantic angles
and not having ramifications at match the the what they
want you to think about it it it you know, yeah,
like if you're if if you're if you're scripting a

(01:58:54):
family drama and there's a teenager who just tears into
a parent or a grandparent or something with a vibe,
just fews a bunch of vile insults at him, and
they just continue to have dinner. That changes how you
feel about what that moment was supposed to mean in
the drama, which is this is a weird family, and
that happens, and apparently no one takes this teenager seriously.

Speaker 2 (01:59:15):
And I don't know if that's the effect that they want.

Speaker 1 (01:59:18):
When Big showyn Rick Flair and Christian and when Randy's
taken all all these people. I think the reason they
staged that last week and then had him recounted gleefully
this week and religion, it wasn't because it's not a
big deal in our family. They want you to think
it's a big deal. But the key missing component is
how the entirety of the ecosystem reacts to it, which
is like, let's just continue eating dinner.

Speaker 3 (01:59:42):
Yeah, But to go to the family drama thing, like
there's like there's the television show US so many more
so many other like things are baked it at the
same time. Yeah, like like there's you know, they're they're
doing that same scene at the at the dinner table,
you know, three times a week. And you know, if
that is happening, you know it is happening constantly, then

(02:00:03):
it's you know, it's sort of more Understandabley, there wouldn't
be a raction to it because it is just sort
of the normal thing to do.

Speaker 1 (02:00:09):
You're saying, they're eating babies, and I'm worried about the
swearing session by the teenager, like there's so much there's
something else, so much crazy going on that overrides the
point that they're not selling the teenagers while rant because
they're actually eating live babies at the dinner table.

Speaker 3 (02:00:25):
Yeah, you shouldn't. You shouldn't eat live babies at the
dinner table.

Speaker 1 (02:00:27):
Well, I'm glad we agree on that, all right, all right, anyway,
thank you for listening to the Wade Keller Pro Wrestling podcast.
Be sure to subscribe also, if you haven't yet subscribed
to the Weaight Keller prog Wrestling post shows. This show
the podcasts have our blue logo. The weight Keller Progressling
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(02:00:49):
and click subscribe to the red logo and you can
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I'm joined by a co host to add a different
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(02:01:10):
on Monday, Wednesday and Friday nights, so there's a fast
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the Wade Keller Prog Wrestling post show. Just search Wade Keller.
You can also stream the show live at Wade kellerpostshow
dot com about five minutes after the show's end on Monday,
Wednesday and Friday night. So we had to lead a
Bank of Italia Lana against Maddie Rose, DANEA Brook and

(02:01:33):
Oscar Oscar Rosenbrook win this one.

Speaker 2 (02:01:36):
Any thoughts on that one?

Speaker 3 (02:01:39):
More loss for por Lana at a table bump. Yeah,
when we're table bump for poor Lana, I mean they
they think they're getting back at Lana, but I think
they're doing more to hurt themselves because it comes across
this so obviously petty that I think everyone notices. And
it's not like the Hook with Lana has ever been
like people viewers like this tough, badass wrestler, So I
don't know that they're really hurt heard that much and

(02:02:01):
if at all, and it just sort of makes them
look petty in the process.

Speaker 1 (02:02:05):
I do think they should just do this every week
for the rest of the year. I mean, not even
for any reason other than just the ridiculousness of it.
All right, Any thoughts on what they did with our
truth In the twenty four to seven title, No, okay?

Speaker 2 (02:02:18):
All right?

Speaker 1 (02:02:18):
Then we had Ricochet, Apollo, Cruise, and Mustafa chatting. They
showed them chatting for no apparent reason, and then MVP
walked in and issued an ultimatum one last chance to
join him. Because it took seed Work a few times
to say yes.

Speaker 2 (02:02:31):

Speaker 3 (02:02:33):
No? All right?

Speaker 1 (02:02:35):
Then Seth and Murphy against Dumberto and Dominic some promos
before that was Seth.

Speaker 2 (02:02:40):
Your thoughts on what they did here?

Speaker 3 (02:02:42):
Yeah, I mean that was just to set up the
angle for later, which was the key to the whole thing.

Speaker 2 (02:02:46):
All right.

Speaker 1 (02:02:47):
Then backstage, Anna Pierce is talking on his phone Bronze
Roman wants a match, and then Keith Lee overheard him
and walked in and said.

Speaker 2 (02:02:55):
Sign me up.

Speaker 3 (02:02:56):
Yeah likewise yeah later all.

Speaker 2 (02:02:59):
Right, So then we get to the KO show your
thoughts on this.

Speaker 3 (02:03:04):
I think it doesn't do Kevin Owens any favorites time
himself for the Fiend nonsense that I don't think anybody buys. Like,
you know, Lexa Bliss told you know, told us that
once you look into the Fiend's eyes, it, you know,
it changes you. It's like, what is this nonsense? I
just I don't I don't buy the Kevin Owens character.
Would would would think that, you know it Obviously they're

(02:03:26):
using him to get, you know, to try to give
credence to what they're destroy their telling with Fiend. But
I don't think anybody buys the Fiend thing. So, you know,
Kevin Owens essentially going guys, you really should buy the
Fiend thing doesn't help him.

Speaker 1 (02:03:39):
Yeah, all right, bron stroman Keith Lee. They battle for
two minutes. What do you think of just what were
you thinking when they announced this match? And then what
do you think what they did with it?

Speaker 3 (02:03:49):
I didn't have a strong reaction and they did the
match because they don't. They don't give finishes to so
much that when they advertise something, I don't take it.
And you know, if AW advertises something on that go
and this is what I'm going to in terms of
as well, in terms of like being able to build
interest in the product and and make things matter and
make people tune in. Is like, if AW advertises a

(02:04:10):
big match next week, I'm gonna go, oh, that's interesting,
what are they going to do because I expect them
to get finishes. So I'm sort of thinking through the
possibilities and you know, contemplating the pros and cons, and
there's a there's an exercise in that with that. It'd
be particularly in the main roster if they advertise something big.
You know, my thought process is, well, they may give

(02:04:31):
a finish, they may not. Probably not, So it's not
really worth worrying about because you know, at the end
of the segment it probably isn't going to advance anything.
So I didn't think anything of it one way or another.
As far as what they did, I thought that it
was a fun brawl. I thought it made them seem
like two bad asses, but it also wasn't so gimmicked
up that it felt contrived, which has sometimes been an

(02:04:52):
issue with bronstruwmen in particular. So I thought they did
a good job with that. My one the one thing
I would change. I really wish that if they're going
to do that, you know, just say it's an impromptu
challenge rather than that there's a match and then you know,
when you have this, you know, this fight out there
between these two people, it feels like a cool thing
and you know you got something positive. Whereas when you

(02:05:15):
do the match and then have you know, a garbage
finish in two minutes, it just it it. Number one,
it feels less satisfying because you tease that you were
going to get something more fulfilling, which is a resolution
to this, and then don't give it. But then, you know,
number two, it's just another thing where they make the
match results feel like you know they you know. Again,
it goes to what I was saying earlier, which is

(02:05:35):
you can't count a match results, so I care about
any match that's being advertised, so you know, there, I
don't think there was any positive purpose to advertising a
match here versus just a challenge, So just advertise the
challenge and don't have a match, all right?

Speaker 1 (02:05:51):
Then the tech match Bobby Laschi and Schult Benjamin against
Ricosheanna Paula Cruz her business when that's one in ten minutes.

Speaker 3 (02:05:56):
Any thoughts on the match, Yeah, I thought it was
a good They did good mic work before and the
match was The match was fine. You know, it's in
the same feud we've been having for a while.

Speaker 2 (02:06:04):
Yeah, then that's the Seth Murphy angle.

Speaker 3 (02:06:07):
Yeah, I mean, I think this program continues to be good.
I'm curious where they're going with Murphy. Uh the fight
with with with Rollins seemed so strong that it feels
hard to imagine that these two sticking together. But Murphy
does continue to act to me like kind of a

(02:06:28):
shady character and it doesn't feel like you should trust him.
So I'm not sure you know how he's going to
shake out and this whole thing, it doesn't it doesn't
feel like they're telling you that you know that that
Murphy is gonna be that he's gonna be turning babyface.

Speaker 2 (02:06:43):
All right?

Speaker 1 (02:06:43):
Then m v p 'm sorry, we had a night
Jackson Shada baser against the Ritt Squad base.

Speaker 2 (02:06:50):
Rejacks win this one.

Speaker 4 (02:06:51):
Your thoughts on what they did here, just you know,
another one Friny and Shana, Yeah okay, then m VP
or is Ie in.

Speaker 3 (02:07:01):
My notes, another one for Niam Jack's god.

Speaker 2 (02:07:07):
It's like chucking.

Speaker 1 (02:07:10):
Yes, yeah, all right, let's see so MVP Ali go
one on one and then the retribution.

Speaker 3 (02:07:19):
What's going on there? Is there the motorcycle gang in
your neighborhood?

Speaker 5 (02:07:22):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (02:07:23):
Pretty pretty Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:07:27):
I live by a big road where there's just a
big stretch without a stop sign or a stoplight, and
being the rule of log guy that I am, you know,
it is disturbing how people choose that to be there.
They're drag racing site, especially considering that I was sitting
on the couch one day with an open window and
heard a gigantic crash and two people died in a
car crash down that road because a teenager, well he

(02:07:50):
have had some health issues that might have had a
way more detailed people needed. But you might have had
a It shouldn't have been driving because you might have
had a medical issue. But he ended up swerving into
the wrong lane, going way faster than you should have
and killed the dad who is going to cup food,
going to the grocery store for some food and uh
and I got to listen to that happen and then
see although so yeah, I have a little a little
uh I stressed out if you tell me your cars

(02:08:12):
to be down that road. So thanks for thanks for
pointing it out. Now it's now it's in the back
of my mind again, Todd.

Speaker 3 (02:08:16):
You've I don't hear it that much when we're recording, so, uh, well.

Speaker 2 (02:08:20):
I don't usually don't have windows open.

Speaker 1 (02:08:22):
This is the time you were with the ace's not
on and he's not on, so I'm letting the the
fresh fall errand so you're hearing a little bit more,
the more birds and more cars that although the windows
are not facing the road, it's actually on the other
side of the house.

Speaker 2 (02:08:35):
That that road is, which tells you how lout that
motorcycle is.

Speaker 3 (02:08:38):
Yeah. Yeah, i'd remembered your your house, and I wasn't
thinking that the road in front of you was was
was that? Why? So that makes sense?

Speaker 2 (02:08:46):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (02:08:48):
Yeah, nothing more about nye and and shacks. All right.

Speaker 2 (02:08:52):
I have a story about keeping on my neighbor, but
I'll leave that. It involved an unmarked white van and
suspic activity at night. But I was like, my god,
this is too perfect. It's anyway, all right, let's see.

Speaker 1 (02:09:11):
Oh so yeah, Retribution, Ali, did you talk about that
before the motorcycle distracted you and.

Speaker 2 (02:09:17):
We went off topic. I don't think so good? Okay, good.

Speaker 3 (02:09:21):
So on the one hand, I'd like to see Ali
get more of an opportunity, uh, and being the leader
of a faction that's gotten so much television time in
theory feels like I matter opportunity. But when the group
is Retribution, I mean, frank, I just don't want to
have anything to do with them, regardless of whether I'm
the leader or not. And then from the other side,

(02:09:42):
Ali is a good performer, but I mean, he's been
so clearly defined at a lower level that I don't
think it does Retribution any favors to have him as
a leader, particularly compared to somebody like Dadjakovic, which who
hasn't been defined down to this point in time. So yeah,
we'll see, but another another week. I'm not terribly terribly
confident what they're doing with this Retribution faction. I don't

(02:10:04):
I don't care much about the draft one way or another.
But my one hope from the draft is that Retribution
gets drafted to smack Down. I think that would just
be so perfect as the next step for this this
storyline that these anarchic and I authority rebels are ordered
to the other show by the corporate overlords that they hate,
and of course they do to flee obay. I I'll
be disappointed if they aren't drafted to SmackDown.

Speaker 1 (02:10:25):
So then h Randy Orton, Dolphin Root against Free Profits
and Drew McIntyre in the Mad Event.

Speaker 3 (02:10:31):
Yeah, I mean, the the key there was just getting
Orton a pinover Drew in the in the tag match,
and I think that's the right way to go to
justify the title match. I mean, they certainly do that
too much, but they've protected Drew, uh Drew McIntyre and
Orton I think could use some added some added credibility
given you know, given the fact that he's lost twice

(02:10:54):
to H to H to McIntire. So I think that
that was the uh the other right, all right?

Speaker 1 (02:11:01):
Anything else from Rock No, all right, So we'll end
the free flagship there, don't forget. You can hear the
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(02:11:44):
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Over the week.

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Time.

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(02:12:07):
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