5 YRS AGO FLAGSHIP: Keller & Fann talk AEW’s 1st year on TNT, NXT’s 1st year on USA, NJPW G1 standings & surprises, WWE Draft analysis

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 2 (01:48):
Now, PW Torch and Speaker bring you the Wade Keller
Pro Wrestling Podcast.

Speaker 1 (01:58):
Five years ago this week, just as he did yesterday,
on this week's new flagship, PW Torch's Rich Fan joined
me and we talked about the WWE draft, including montes Ford,
seth Rawlins, Keith Lee, and Bigie. Also thoughts on retribution
with Mustafa Ali, Our thoughts on aw's first year on
TNT and where there's room for improvement, did they improve
NXT's first year on USA New Japan's g one standings

(02:19):
and surprises so far during the COVID version of that tournament,
also assessing and comparing Capital Wrestling Center, Thunderdome, and Daily's
place during COVID, and more with scattered email questions during
the show. So nearly two hours of analysis here. That
originally dropped on October fifteenth, twenty twenty and it is
Today's Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast five years ago flagship

(02:40):
for Wednesday, October fifteenth, twenty twenty five. All right, Rich,
let's start off with a little bit of new Japan talk.
I know you just caught up on night sixteen, right
of the of the tournament. We were just talking about
that before the show, trying to keep track of our
numbers here. So we are at a point where there

(03:05):
are just two nights left, one night for each block
and then the finals. Is that correct, Rich, Yep, that's great, Yes, yes,
I was pretty sure that. So we've got a pretty
good idea of the standings now. On Block A a
three way tie twelve points each Okada, Abushi and j White,
with will Osprey in the running with ten points, and

(03:27):
then a bunch of eliminations Tigi, Jeff, Kaby, all of
them not in there. And then Block B two way
tie Naito and Evil at twelve points each, Sonata and
Zach Saber Junior at ten. So we have a clear picture.
We've got a top eight based on what well. Actually,
I'll ask this, are you surprised by who the aid

(03:49):
are going into the final night? Going into the final
night of competition before the finals, you surprised by anybody
who's in the top eight, or surprised by anybody who's
been eliminated already.

Speaker 3 (04:00):
Honestly, I would say I'm surprised at really the fact
that you look at someone like, say, in this final eight,
that Evil did as well as he did, and sonatas
in the final weight, because I think he's Both of
those men in B Bloc have kind of struggled the
last few months, and particularly in this tournament, they haven't
been as good as I thought they would be, especially

(04:22):
Evil and considering he had a less instellar double title run.
So I would say those two are the biggest surprises
being in the top eight. Outside of it, I would
say Kenta because I think his work on New Japan
USA warranted. I thought Tanahashi would probably be on the
outside looking in. He hasn't yet hit that time to
go veteran status of maybe two to four points six

(04:44):
I think is respectable. And then on the eight I
think Shingo much like Alan Kunahan, I'm Shino fan club,
and I thought he probably could have had a shout
in at least that final night's action.

Speaker 1 (04:56):
Yeah, I bet you're kind of just listen to your
pre show. Look at listen setting up the tournament a
couple of weeks back or a couple months back, whatever
it was. Time time is a blur these days. I
can imagine you guys being collectively kind of bummed out
right now about the about him.

Speaker 3 (05:11):
Yeah, and then looking in like you mentioned, the next
two nights, I think the fact that you have a
Nato kent To match that's gonna basically be an opportunity
for Kenda to play spoiler and pull Nito down to
the level of the opposition, or for a Nto to
kind of have to wait and see what the results
of the other matches are to determine whether or not
he moves to the final. And then on the next night,

(05:34):
if I look at this on the New Japan website correctly,
I think the biggest stresser is gonna be Koda Bushi
and Taichi because Taichi has a chance to again play spoiler,
and then Tomahiro Ishi E and j White again another
person that could kind of pull someone down, and of
course the match that last year was a pretty good one,

(05:54):
Ah Spray Okada. That'll basically the who whether or not
Okada advances or if Osbreaking pulls him down and makes
it a three or four way tie with twelve pin points.

Speaker 1 (06:07):
So if people are jumping into G one, they you know,
they haven't been able to keep up, which is understandable
with all the content, but they do want to get in.
On these final couple nights, you've kind of set up
some of the key things to look for. Talk a
little bit more about what people should look for if
they're going to side up or just haven't kept up
and they're just going to jump in here at the
end when the picture is more clear, any other matches

(06:29):
to look for, and also give me kind of partay
that into your predictions of where you think this is headed.
Based on reading the tea leaves you know that there
can be drama that you talk yourself into, but there
also might be a voice in your head going, come on,
we all know it's going to be X versus X.

Speaker 3 (06:45):
Yeah, okay, so from the global side and then zooming
in close and closer as you just mentioned, I think
if you're just getting into the g one, one fun
thing I would still recommend as you go through the
weekends events is not just the A and B block,
but the lovingly titled C Block, which is the matchups
to start each show between all of the young Lions.

(07:06):
That's been a delightful opportunity to see the future of
New Japan, both in the United States and in Japan
as far as their trainees and how well they do.
I think a lot of times, if you're an American
fan and you've seen say WWE with NXT and the
trainees in the crowd, seeing the New Japan trainees wrestle
as they're learning is something that's a very awesome experience personally,

(07:27):
and so seeing Yoda Suji, Gabriel, kid Yo Yo Mura,
amongst others kind of apply their trade, that's going to
be something just from a purely technical observer standpoint, you
get to see their personalities develop and flourish. These next
two nights, I think the big question is going to
be is Nito going to get what only two other
wrestlers before him have gotten, which is being the IWGP

(07:49):
champion and winning the g One. I think that's a possibility,
and I think that's something that would be an olive
branch given to him and his fan base, again, who
felt maybe a little at times in the last two
three year jerked around by his treatment in the Maine
event scene. I always argued, he's boy like Masi hero Chono,
too cool for the title. He doesn't necessarily need it,
but a lot of folks felt that vindication was necessary.

(08:10):
So if he was put in a position where he
would win the g One outright have to choose his opponent,
that's something that would be hitherto, especially with the double
titles unheard of. But I think the more realistic option
is either a Jay White victory or a Sonata victory
going up against each other and having either of those

(08:32):
men challenge Nito one because Jay White's just done what
he always does when he's in that position, and Flourish
and Sanata I think they want to either figure, just
like with Evil, is he what they think he is
because he's not going to get any younger. He might
stay pretty, but he's not going to get any younger, what's.

Speaker 1 (08:49):
Been your surprise of the tournament in terms of either
someone growing into the role, shining being better than you expected,
and then also who's your pick for the one who
just didn't deliver as you hoped.

Speaker 3 (09:03):
I would say as far as the shining, Taichi, he's
grown on me the last year, and like some of
my contemporaries Allen Sean and others have mentioned, he's a
person similar to Jeff Cobb and that when he's going
to the level of the competition, you'll kind of see
what he has. And being in the A block has
forced both Taichi and Jeff Cob to bring their A game.
But I think Taichi has been more consistent with his

(09:24):
I think he's gotten more of an attitude and I
think this ongoing sub subtext of if for those of
you who don't know, Taiichi wrestled outside in Japan, he
was a trainee of Toshiaki Kuwata and they did not
have the best relationship. In fact, if you look on
my Twitter feed at rich Underscore Fana fan and I
put up a video from a few years ago of

(09:45):
Kuwata training with young boyd Taiichi helping him in the
back and he just is, you know, doing which one
does before title match, stretching, doing all the things at
Skuada would, and then he looks at Taichi. He have
some nice little kick to practice in Taichi kind of nods,
and then he hauls off and kicks the back of
that man's legout from under him, and you could just
see the look of pain as the young boy is

(10:06):
looking up at Kowadas Dude, what are you doing? And
so that's been their relationship, and so he's now carried
that mindset and brought it to the fans when he
talks about Kota Abushi's relationship with his quote unquote gods,
his relationship with Hiroshi Tanahashi. In fact, his tag title
win over Tanahashi and Oh, I'm sorry, Ibushi was one
of the points of pride for him because he wants

(10:27):
to sow seeds a discord between mentors and and tees.
So I think throughout this tournament he's done a great
job not only of doing that, but to standing up
to his mentor in Shazuki gun Minoral Suzuki winning his
match early in the tournament was a feather in his cap.
I was hoping he would get but wasn't quite sure.
I think that the B block same thing with someone
like a really excuse me, a Jews Robinson going in.

(10:50):
I wasn't sure how he would react because when folks
did The New Japan at home and they asked, what
are you doing? What wrestling you're watching? How he's staying
up to date, his answer was, I'm not watching wrestling.
I don't like wrestling without crowd, so I've kind of
been just chilling with my family and doing nothing, and
he came in with this Blues brother's looking gimmick, but
he's been wrestling his butt off and I've been really

(11:11):
happy with the results of that. The fans have really
gotten into him, very respectful. On the other side, I
think in terms of disappointments, I want Kenned to do more.
I have enjoyed his character, I've enjoyed some of his promos,
but I think after he wrestled Juice Robinson, he gave
his heartfelt promo talking about how he claimed or there
was a company that claimed they had the world's best wrestling,

(11:31):
and him and Juice came from that company and they
never found themselves until they came the New Japan, and
once he kind of bore himself out like that. I
think he's been wearing his heart a little too much
on his sleeve for a heel, and so as a result,
his matches haven't been as crisp, hasn't been his technically
sound as I thought they would be. And then in
the A block, I really think yu Jio, other than

(11:52):
one of his matches, the match against Jay White that
was comedic and also that I'm gonna lay down for
your brother brother situation, I think he really could have
been removed and you could have added someone else that
would have been a value add to the tournament overall.
I had been pushing for the quote unquote other Takahashi Hiromu,
but with the presence of Ospray and really Osprey in

(12:17):
the tournament, it would have kind of taken the luster
off of a former junior that's trying to trade in
the heavyweights. They did that last year with both Ospray
and my Man Shingo, so doing it with three people
this time around would have been a little weird.

Speaker 1 (12:35):
You can support us on Patreon and get these shows
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(12:57):
dot com slash PW torch VIP. Can also upgrade to
other tiers and receive even more benefits through Patreon. All right,
final question, I'm throwing a lot at you here about
G one. What are the must see matches?

Speaker 2 (13:17):
Limit?

Speaker 1 (13:17):
You can do one or two, or three or four,
but kind of limit yourself four if someone wants to
just get a flavor for this tournament as we move
into the final few shows here, okay.

Speaker 3 (13:29):
I would say, right off the bat, Shindo Takagi's matches
against both will Osprey and Coda Abushi. I think those
were outstanding matches. On the A block side of things,
I would have I'll give an honorable mention to his
match against Okada. And then on the other side on
B block, I would say most likely I'm looking here,

(13:53):
I would say Zach Saber Junior and Evil No no, no, no, No,
I would say Zach saber Junia in Sonata. That's always
a favorite of mine just from a standpoint because they
both technically sound, they both like to work the mat
and do some of that British world of sports style,
and seeing it from those two is always fun for me.

Speaker 1 (14:13):
All Right, cool, let's pause, introduce ourselves at the table
and hit other topics. This is the Way Keller prog
Wrestling Podcast, the Thursday flagship for October fifteenth, twenty twenty.
I'm Wade Keller, editor and publisher of the Pro Wrestling
Torch weekly newsletter and PW torch dot com and of
course host of the aptly named Wadekeller podcasts and post
shows and a bunch of VIP shows too.

Speaker 2 (14:35):
And I'm joined by Rich Fan.

Speaker 1 (14:37):
He is the host of the PW Torch Daily Cast
Deep Dive that hopefully you are downloading every Saturday night
or Sunday when it goes online, and also a co
host of the PW Torch East Coast Cast. Rich, Welcome
back to the flagship.

Speaker 3 (14:52):
Thanks Wada, I'm looking forward to continueing our chat. Yes.

Speaker 2 (14:56):
How do how do people follow you on social media?

Speaker 3 (15:00):
Sure? You can find me on Twitter, at rich underscore
fan f an n Typically, I'm talking about the world
of wrestling, whatever's going on in the world itself, football, soccer,
name it. I'm always happy to.

Speaker 2 (15:12):
Chant excellent, excellent.

Speaker 1 (15:14):
Okay, let's uh, let's pivot to so many choices with
so much coming up, We'll flip to the WWB Draft
and talk about the reshaping of the roster. We have
our season premieres coming up for Raw and SmackDown, and
we also have just new matchups that WWE has has

(15:37):
to work with on both sides of the ledger. But
we also have unfinished business to get to before we
can get to a whole new set of feuds because
of Helen a Cell with some of the matches that
are set up, which means, you know, we won't know
what's next for Drew McIntyre, for instance, or Roman Reigns.
I'll ask a big macro question and then we'll get
to some of the specifics after that. What is your

(15:59):
what's your thought on the draft overall, like your top
headline that you pull from the draft. Was there a
move that surprised you for good or bad or anything
else regarding the way the draft was executed?

Speaker 2 (16:11):
On Friday and Monday.

Speaker 3 (16:14):
I think the biggest headline for me was the breaking
up of the New Day, or at least separation. I
wouldn't say breakup necessarily, because you now have the tag
team portion of Kofi and Xavier on Raw and the
universal title challenging Biggie or I guess that's his aim,
his raison tetre on SmackDown, and so I thought that

(16:35):
was a big thing, especially with the way that I
haven't heard them that vocal in the past about the
breakup option and outside of we want to support each other,
but to see them on talking smack afterward or talking
Raw being very frank about the fact that, you know,
when we ever find out about things around here, and
I think that can add an edge that I believe

(16:57):
they'll need going in. Additionally, I think the biggest underline
was keeping status quo with the main champions. I think
it's not lost on me that Fox has kind of
found something, so to speak, with Roman Reigns in that
two hour spot, kind of being the spine behind SmackDown,
and Drew McIntyre had found his flow on Raw being
the erstwhile ernest champion. So I think doing that was

(17:20):
a great good Stob and then Sammy Zine's return as
in a continental champion. In the Hurt business as a
unit has done a phenomenal job both with the I
guess now disappeared for no explained reason Raw Underground and
on Raw Proper. I guess Raw Underground wasn't eligible for
the draft, but I was quite amazed at that, And
I think my final headline would be from a logical question.

(17:42):
I don't know about you, bait Waite, but I had
no earthly reason why WWE would draft an organization they
pay to destroy them.

Speaker 2 (17:53):
Well, they also signed them to contracts inexplicably.

Speaker 3 (17:56):
Yeah, the whole thing. It's like, the more I go
down that rabbit hole, Alison Wonderlanders like, Okay, you're paying
them because you figure, hey, it's easier we can make
money exploit them. And kind of to me, the idea was, okay,
you're kind of sub subverting whatever cause they have, because
if you've made them buy out, Like you know, when
you talk to like Zach de la Rocha from Rage
against the Machine and when he realized his music was

(18:18):
so mainstream, it was like, okay, I'm out, And that
was kind of like He's like Yeah, I'm in the machine.
I can't rage anymore. And with them, I don't know
if there's gonna be that moment where they realize, hey,
we literally are doing But I don't know. That could
be something that's very high brow. But I think those
were my biggest ones. Actually I lied. One other one
was it looks a little top heavy with the strength

(18:41):
of wrestling on SmackDown versus Raw. It looks like there's
a in terms of women wrestling in particular. It looks
like there's they're going more for the storyline slash entertainment
with Raw and with SmackDown. They have a lot of
good workers.

Speaker 4 (18:58):
Need an extra dose of positivity and your wrestling podcasts
will come join me Alan forel Over in the Progress
Paradise at Pterboo Torch vip as we mask on the
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(19:18):
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(19:40):
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Speaker 2 (19:59):
See you in the Paradise.

Speaker 1 (20:07):
Okay, so let's let's expand on a couple of those
things and add a couple of new things to the
draft discussion. First focus is on on Biggie moving to
smack Down, but not who I thought was the top
candidate to feud with Roman Ranges, Keith Lee. So let's
let's talk about both of them for a minute. You
talk about New Day splitting up and talking about it

(20:28):
on Talking smack. I think the symbolism of have I
don't symbolism the wrong word. The actually it's it's it's
actual and concrete. Having Kofe and Xavier not at ringside
for Biggie and having Biggie on his own once well,
who knows what Survivor series month offen the'll cross pass.
It might be on opposite sides of the ring. Who
knows as Survivor series, But it gives Biggie a chance

(20:49):
to really find his should say, find an identity, but
establish an identity that isn't playing a playing all of
Xavier and KOFE.

Speaker 2 (21:02):
And I'm not sure where that where he goes with that.

Speaker 1 (21:05):
He's spoken about it rich, you know, in terms of
people saying, oh, don't don't you know goof off clown around,
be so bombastic or edgy whatever however people classify for
good or bad what Biggie has done. I'm really curious
to see what he does because when you look at
the baby face step chart on SmackDown, he's arguably the
number one babyface.

Speaker 2 (21:23):
On SmackDown on the male side. I mean, you're looking
at usso.

Speaker 1 (21:27):
Jay Ray Dominic, you know, Daniel Bryan, who's not a
weekly fixture, Kevin Owens, Apolo Cruz. Biggie has a chance
right now to have an absolute breakout season. What do
you anticipate from this and are you excited about it.

Speaker 5 (21:42):
I am, I am.

Speaker 3 (21:43):
I think he started that process when they had the
double whammy of Xavier having the Achilles and dealing with
Kofe kind of going away after that crazy spot through
the table. So this is a good continuation of that,
and now you, like you said, it's kind of been cemented.
It's that one sibling where now they have to find
their identity away from their twin or if you're going

(22:06):
to college, you're the oldest, and now the younger brothers
have to figure out what they're going to do outside
of just being Ex's younger brother. So I think this
is good for him, But I also think it could
have been helpful to have those moments like they did
with Kofi, where you had the rest of the squad
there saying we don't care about individual stuff, we care
about you right now, this is your time. I think

(22:26):
having that conversation, or even having those conversations on the
road to WrestleMania perhaps might be a good way to
conclude it after he's found his voice, which is just
a different way to get to the same destination, which
I think is cool. I think the people you mentioned,
particularly a Kevin Owens, he is one of the most
giving wrestlers on that roster, So I am definitely anticipating
them having a series at some point, and I'm also

(22:48):
anticipating at some point Biggie having to carry I've liked
some of his promos, but I think having that opportunity
for him to kind of grow into I'm doing the
big I would call the the Drew McIntyre promo that
here's why I want to be your champion, and here's
what I bring to the table selling his constituency, if
you will on his.

Speaker 1 (23:10):
Merit, what's the best framing of Biggie or best way
for him to present himself to be not part of
a three man group that is wrestling tag matches, but
the weight that is on someone's shoulders when they become
the lead babyface on a TV show or in a
wrestling company. Does he need to change at all from

(23:31):
what you've seen or would you recommend he change at
all other than what you just said in terms of
kind of taking on that Drew speaking as the leader
of the brand, because I think that's where he hasn't
shown that consistently over the years, where he is going
to take the situation more seriously and I am a
fan of having a wide array of types of wrestlers

(23:51):
on a roster from top to bottom. But I think
the lead babyface should come across with rare exception and
for good any good reasons for except, but should be
sort of the leader of the locker room. They should
come across as representing a certain approach to their job
and the whole purpose that wrestling exists, that also matches

(24:13):
up with the fans, and they get the fans in
sync and they're a leader.

Speaker 2 (24:17):
Has he shown enough of that? Do you want him
to show more of that?

Speaker 1 (24:19):
Or do you think that's too wrote Babyface and he
needs to find his own path.

Speaker 3 (24:26):
I think it'd be helpful if he did a few
opportunity did have a few opportunities where he could be
the stand up babyface, not too dissimilar from what you
saw with Will Hobbs and Moxley on AW where you
have that opportunity to say, hey, I'm coming to the
aid of this person or I'm getting vouched for by
this person, but instead have Bigie be the guy that's

(24:46):
standing up making a good decision. And you know, it
might be like you mentioned earlier when we were talking
about the New Day breaking up that brand supremacy and
blah blah blah. On Survivor series, he might be the
sole survivor for the SmackDown team or something like that
where he's the captain and he has to choose. I
assume Roman would be defending the title. Otherwise that would
make for a very confusing situation because the tribal chief

(25:09):
probably would not suffer that indignation. But I think that
would be a good opportunity. Also, I believe that he
needs someone that's going to be a solid heel to
get under his skin on the road to that title.
And I don't quite know who that is on the
SmackDown roster yet given the makeup, because I don't know
about you, Wade, But looking at this on the men's side,

(25:31):
Alister Black, can he carry it? Corbyn would be annoying,
but it wouldn't necessarily be a compelling. But there isn't
really that heel outside of Roman that grabs you and
says I need to be respected. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (25:45):
I wonder when Seth moves on from feuding with the
Mysterial Family, is there time for Biggie to have a
full fledge feud with Seth before he gets to Rains,
and part of that has to do with you know
who you anticipate or expect Reins to face it WrestleMania,
because that is the hard date in the calendar where
everything either comes up a couple you know has to

(26:07):
conclude a couple months before WrestleMania, or you have to
delay it until right after WrestleMania when it comes to Rains.
If you think Biggie is Rains as wrestlemaning opponent, Biggie's
got to do something between now and February when that
gets established or at the Rumble perhaps so if do
you think Biggie is Rains as wrestleming opponent, and then
do you see a seth Rollins feud? Or is that

(26:30):
too soon because cesscill has a mysterial family thing going on,
which then brings me full circle back to can they
manufacture something with you know Biggie stands up to Lars
Sullivan because he's meeting people up randomly, or is King
Corbin sort of defining Biggie down in our eyes? But
Vince McMahon might see that as a completely logical first
step for bigging out smack down to conquer King Corbin

(26:51):
or does he go after Sammy Zain? But does that
get complicated? Because how does he then come out of
it without the Icy title and still win the feud?
And then I'm with you hesitating before we say Alister
Black because they just don't know if his character has
been fully established enough. And that's those are the options.
So what is the path between now and the post
WrestleMania feud for Biggie?

Speaker 3 (27:10):
I think the first question they have to answer is
can they get Dwayne Johnson to wrestle his cousin. Yeah,
if that's a yes, then the float chart maybe determines
that that won't necessarily be for the Universal title, and
at some point between now and then, we got to
get that off of Roman, so that the next thing
we accomplish is how do we make big Eie for
this universal title? And I think the easiest thing is

(27:31):
put Seth in that role as Universal Champion through either
a multi person match or something with the stakes are
high enough that it's worth the Universal title, but low
enough such that Roman will not take a clean loss,
because I think if you're going to have him go
up against the Rock, he needs to be as clean
as possible. So if you have what we all typically
don't want of the champion never was pinned in a

(27:53):
three way or a four way or six pack or
whatever they're going to do that gets it on the sets,
which fits him perfectly because he's the scumback that no
one's gonna you know, he's gonna claim it was divine
right or something that he got it anyway. So that
will open that door to then saying, Biggie, you're I
hope they don't go with the oft overused you're a
B plus player. This is bigger than what you're standing

(28:15):
is because that kind of gets a little icky. Uh,
But I do believe that that would be a good
opportunity for Big Ee to kind of move into that.
If you find that the rock isn't going to be there,
then yeah, keep Roman strong tribal chief and have Big
Eie work his way through all the other heels. And
maybe he is about to win the rumble, but Roman

(28:38):
costs him the rumble, and he's like, listen, I'm just
thinking of this. You know, in some way Roman shows
not complete fear. Maybe it's Paul Hayman helps or something,
but Biggie doesn't get that rumble win. But somehow still
gets to Roman, which would allow him to kind of
go on a road similar to Kofe unfortunately, which as
I'm talking it kind of sounds more and more like Kofe's.

(29:00):
But I think that works if it's not broke, don't
fix it.

Speaker 1 (29:05):
If Roman Reiins went down with an injury, and I'm
not hoping for this, but I do you think Vince
mc mahon would look at the lay of the land
and go, oh, I gotta just got to go back
to seth Rawlins Or is Big Ee at the top
of his list? And who else do you think would
even be in consideration? And in other words, it's a
kind of a winding way to get to the question
of do you think Big Ee is somebody who is

(29:26):
the fans are ready to embrace and he's ready to
take on headlining pay per views as a babyface World champion.
Either they probably isn't going to be part of the
plans because of how behind Roman they are and they
ought to be. But if Roman went down, is Big
eie the guy? Or do you think they reshuffle things?
And that's really not on Vince's radar for something he
would do or something that would even be advisable.

Speaker 3 (29:48):
I think in a long term he could be convinced
just like he had been in the past, maybe last
second with Big Eye. Honestly, if Roman went down, I'm
thinking they make a trade somehow and they do one
of those for people who could be named later, and
Randy Yorton becomes Universal Champion.

Speaker 6 (30:02):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (30:03):
I will go back, however, many years to when Biggie
and Roman were, you know, both coming up, and Biggie
was Vince's guy and Roman was Triple H's guy, kind
of pushing Vince from what I had heard, and not
that Vince was down on Roman or Triple H was
down on Biggie, but Vince was wanting to do something
with Biggie. So I think there is that that going

(30:24):
way back, good news for people to want to see
Biggie get a chance. I think Newday just turned out
to be so successful that you know, why mess with it.
But it's not like Vince's first impression of Big Ee
was what his first impression is of, say a Daniel
Bryan or you know other people who are you know,
too small or too indy or too whatever. He's he

(30:44):
Biggie is the type of guy who kind of I
think pushes Vince's entertainment buttons with his personality, and then
he also pushes his buttons in terms of his overall look.
You know, he likes the big, muscular power move guys,
and he's looked for that slot many many times over
the years obviously, So I wouldn't rule out a possibility
of a twenty twenty excuse me, a twenty twenty one

(31:06):
title reign for Big E unless Roman just holds that
title the whole year. But when you look at the
lay of the land and on the SmackDown side of things,
I mean, we've got a year now before in theory
there's any major changes in that lineup. They can do
a trade, they can do a call up, and maybe
Damian Priest comes up as a baby face opponent or

(31:27):
something like that. But I just think the next twelve
months is going to be the biggest twelve months of
Biggie's career, and I think there's a chance for you know,
to not to reseword, but big things happening for him.
I think the planets are aligned well and I think
it does help Xavier and Kofe are are over unraw, yeah,
and I think.

Speaker 3 (31:48):
There's so many options where you can have fun with
this big ee like especially events is behind it, if
he's if he's for there's so many different ways they
can bring other people in to help him. And because
that would be you know, we've seen it when Vince
wants to make something happen, he will. He will bludget
you over the head on television to show you this
is the path I want to take. And I think

(32:08):
with Biggie there is such a fan sentiment that it
wouldn't be that typical the romanesque pushback that John c
asked pushback. But yeah, I think that bears watching.

Speaker 2 (32:17):
In the next few months, we're about to go to
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(32:44):
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and plug free listening experience with a VIP or Patreon membership.
Let's stay with Smackel for a minute and talk about
what this draft means for Seth.

Speaker 2 (33:00):
He is he has now his zero.

Speaker 1 (33:02):
Chance to be the number one heel with Roman Reigns
on top. But I'm not sure that's bad. Seth seems
to be at a different place right now in how
he's being perceived and portrayed and framed by Vincient Mann.
But he's pretty clearly the number two heel Lars Sullivan,
that's just.

Speaker 2 (33:22):
Who knows, you know.

Speaker 1 (33:23):
I mean, I'm not putting my money on him being
a guy who can be a number two heel. Alistair
Black probably could be, but the way he's been booked
doesn't seem like that's the vision Vince McMahon has for
him right now. Sammy's ain is, you know, more of
a typical three or four heel on a depth chart
on a show right now, a little more comedy.

Speaker 2 (33:43):
But who knows, you know.

Speaker 1 (33:44):
I mean, I put him a little higher up in
terms of the odds than the others, so I mean,
and then it's like Murphy and I don't know if
he's a fac or a heel or you know where
he's heading in that way. So Seth gets to be
in the number two feud on SmackDown perpetually, while Rains
is in the number one. Is this a good move
for him? Especially when you look across to the Babyface

(34:04):
side of things and you wonder what feuds are set
up for Seth?

Speaker 2 (34:10):
That makes sense?

Speaker 1 (34:11):
I mean Apollo, Cruz, Kevin Owns, Daniel Bryant, Dominic, Ray,
j Uso, Otis big Ee. Is that a good list
of opponents for Seth to fill out the next twelve months.

Speaker 3 (34:20):
I think he's probably gonna have to stretch him out
and make it work, kind of like someone when you're
a kid and you got that dinner and it's most
the last couple of days. I think with this pile,
most likely Seth is gonna be dealing with the Mysterial
family for a long while. So you have that triangle
between the Mysterios, the situation with Murphy and the daughter,

(34:43):
and so you can pull out another four or five
months with that. Yeah, and then you get to that
next crew people that face. I'm assuming it's gonna be
that one as we mentioned the Biggie match. Next, I
would say Kevin Owens, and then perhaps depending on how
he feels with his child's safety, because I know he's
been kind of taking time here and there. But Daniel Bryant,

(35:04):
that one screams to be a natural one for him,
and that kind of takes him to what March maybe
April that might even be his wrestlem match, and so
that isn't a bad wrestle, might be a match for
him to have. So I think that's probably where Seth
is and then more of a reset as we go
into twenty twenty one summer and that to kind of

(35:25):
see where he is in the hierarchy. Had there been
comings and goings, because with that will come you know,
is Brock back in the picture? Has Roman done any
more movies with the Rock his Sasha Banks and others
moved on to do other work, and has that given
more opportunity for time than need to be filled. Has
anyone like in Umberto Corrio Angel Garza stepped up, Have

(35:48):
they made call ups that might be a good fit
for him? So many different unknowns right now that could
kind of help him as he goes into twenty twenty one.

Speaker 1 (35:58):
For Roman Reigns, tell me what you think this, Well
take the X factor out of the Rock or Brock Lesner,
or well not take it out, but just acknowledge that
there's a chance of WrestleMania feud in match with the
Rock or Brock Lasnar, even Goldberg, somebody from outside the roster.
But in terms of who's on the roster, like who's

(36:19):
on the baby face side, that intrigues you as Roman
reigns worthy. Besides Biggie who we talked about, I would.

Speaker 3 (36:25):
Say they could probably get a good program going with
him and Kevin Owens or McIntyre if McIntyre isn't going
to be the w w E champion going into WrestleMania.
I think again that ernest hard working. I've worked as
hard as you Roman, you know that would be good.
Keith Lee, like you mentioned earlier, it would have been
another one I think would have been a good one

(36:46):
because you have again that hard work versus what is
it handed? I seem it seems like Matt Riddle, for
myriad reasons, is kind of falling down the wayside. So
that doesn't make sense even with him being unraw and
everyone else. I mean he said that comments he did
on ESPN and other platforms, not only about the Rock
but about Bronze Stroman and his proceis failure when he

(37:08):
had the title. I don't see a fiend or something
like that jumping in the frame with him. So I
think it is limited to Big Ee if it's not
going to be Biggie, Keith Lee, Drew McIntyre, and then
maybe X where it's someone on the NXT roster they
decide to put a rocket on.

Speaker 1 (37:26):
Yeah, and if we limit ourselves to just who's on
SmackDown right now and take set aside a special WrestleMania attraction,
it's Big Eie, And then I could imagine them doing
something with Otis for like a one month thing, just
to give us a breather from whatever WrestleMania was, where
Otis has money in the bank, he's got a cash
in and they do some sort of storyline. And again
this who knows where they go with a mizlawsuit if

(37:48):
they drop it or revisit it. But you could just
kind of get a one off, especially if you had.

Speaker 2 (37:52):
A strong Raw W title match to counter it.

Speaker 1 (37:58):
But other than that, on a more serious level, I
think Daniel Brian is still really intriguing if Daniel Brian
is around and available and they drafted him, so it
seems to be an indication, you know, they think he'll
be around and available for something. Daniel Brian babyface against
he'll Roman reignsview just feels like that has to happen,
and to me, that's a dark horse candidate for a

(38:21):
WrestleMania consideration. If you're Vince McMahon, you're trying to look
at what clicks, especially if they want to save a
match with a special attraction for when they can have
a full stadium, a full crowd, especially if it's the
Rock or Brock. So I'm intrigued by that. Kevin Owens
would take some rehab, so he'd be probably third on
my list in terms of serious opponents on the SmackDown side.

(38:42):
So Biggie number one, Daniel Brian number two, rehab Kevin
Owens and then a kind of an asterisk sidebar fund
one month off, a one month quick feud would be
with Otis.

Speaker 3 (38:53):
Yeah, I think Otis is one where similar to daniel'brien,
the opportunities there for him to could Roman to continue
what he's doing with Jay Usso in being this vicious
h Uh. He's trying to be this magnanimous keel and
I think doing that with otis where he's like, do
you really want Like I know you have this money

(39:14):
in the bank, but do you really want to do this?
Do you want to embarrass yourself in front of your
family when you say you want me? And then with
Daniel Brian, that would be again that yes movement, getting
the people behind him and if they could pull it off. Wait,
I honestly it sounds insane. I would love to see
a match with him versus Daniel where it is, uh,

(39:36):
he just gets both raised, he boat races Daniel and
it's I didn't want to do this, but I'm doing
this because I have to kill Hope. I'm tired of Hope.
And now WrestleMania typically isn't where they have such dark moments,
but I think leading into it, if he could just
kind of tap into that and that Rocky esque having
you know, even Brie say you can't win, you know,

(39:58):
that sort of stuff, that would be a good thing.
Because Roban right now is in a gear where people
believe what he's saying and he's has that connection with
the crowd. Ironically a socially distanced one that had been
you know, you and I had talked about this for years.
He's he's made that connection and it's a way I
did not see coming. So any of these people I
see is viable one offs, but I think, like you said,

(40:21):
Daniel Brian is probably the most likely one that makes
the most sense for WrestleMania.

Speaker 1 (40:25):
All right on the ross side of things and the
Mets staying in the men's division for now. I was
surprised Keithley and codasmacdow just. I think it's a great opportunity.
It's a great feud for Roman, but it's now it's
a chance for Keith Lee to be the number two
babyface on Raw and just sort of be I don't

(40:49):
know if gatekeeper is a right word, but build him
up for another year and then when he is established
as hey he's ready to be a top guy if
he if he succeeds in that and that path and
wins people over behind the scenes, and when's fan support
that reflects it, then you can really go with Keith
Lee on top against Roman Reigns in that we answered

(41:14):
that conversation a year from now, is that too slow
of a build given Keith Lee's age and how quickly
they shot him into the top mix with Drew and
Randy Orton, does that seem like you're putting him on
ice or is there another path I'm not thinking of,
including Keith Lee going heel and being an opponent for.

Speaker 2 (41:32):
Drew McIntyre some time between now and the next draft.

Speaker 3 (41:36):
No, I don't think it's too much. And I think
given the ages, you know, as much as they've been
bringing people back and using them as much as they have,
I don't think the age is going to be as
big an issue. I do think though, if they're not
going to give Keith that opportunity now, they need to
figure out a way to kind of spotlight him and
put him in a a a bookmark worthy or a

(41:57):
landmark worthy event at WRESTLEMANI so you can say on
his journey, here is what he had. I think for me,
if he went heel, sure that would be an option
for me. I think one of the other things you
could do with a Keith Lee is have him if
he doesn't have that big marquee match at WrestleMania. Vince
likes to do it for heels, but there's I think

(42:19):
a King of the Ring win for Lee that leads
to a summer slam match instead would be just as helpful.
And he is a dude that you know, I don't
I would hope he wouldn't want to dress him up
like almost King mabelesque. But if he Keith was a
heel any one king of the ring and they didn't
treat him like they do Corbin at times, that wouldn't
be bad either.

Speaker 1 (42:40):
What do you think is Keith Lee's totally like best
case scenario for the next three to five years.

Speaker 3 (42:47):
Best case, I think he's a high end Kevin Owens.
You get, you get the occasional title matches. Title wins
can be interchangeable facer heel with the upper mid card
and Maine eventers, and ultimately, because of the body issues
that the owner has, stays in that mix but never
truly is the dominant person.

Speaker 1 (43:08):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm I'm hope, I hope he even
has higher potential or I hope he ends up more
than that. But I think that is the most realistic
assessment of where he isn't part of that is, you know,
Vince had a choice, he could have put Keith Lee
as essentially the number one baby Face over on SmackDown
after giving him, you know, a win over Randy Orton
in some big matches and big spotlights, and he went

(43:31):
with big E and put Drew in a position where
I'm sorry, I put Keith Lee in a position where
he is number two babyface barring an unexpected turn on
the on the right side of things. So that sends
a little bit of a message.

Speaker 7 (43:49):
In twenty twelve, NXT transitioned into the developmental system and
ultimately the brand you see today. On the Torch VIP podcast,
NXT eight years Back will be taking a weekly look
at this page in NXT's early history.

Speaker 8 (44:04):
Join Kelly Wells and me Tom Stout from PWT Talks
NXT every Saturday as we go eight years back to
the day to track NXT's rising talents and why they
did or didn't work out exclusively for PW Torch vi
IP members.

Speaker 1 (44:23):
As far as Drew macdiar goes rich, what's your assessment
of his chair of the lineup of heels that he
has to work with, Because when you look at matchups
that are even slightly realistic on the radar, aj Styles
is one of them. I know a j and Drew
really want to work together, so I think they're probably
going to get their wish now Bobby Lashley in her

(44:43):
business if he stays heel obviously with a good opponent
for Drew, Randy Orton, they're finishing up so we can
move on from that, and also Seamus I think should
be in that conversation, and then the.

Speaker 2 (44:54):
Fiend bray Wyatt.

Speaker 1 (44:56):
Is that a pretty strong list of opponents for Drew
to work over the next twelve months again, if they
don't do any other call ups.

Speaker 3 (45:04):
Yeah, absolutely. I think those guys have had a good
road as far as Drew and AJ, and I think
if I remember correctly, they may have wrestled they had
that situation where Drew became the independent Champion Killer and

(45:24):
AJ was New Japan's darling as they both transitioned either
out of the companies they were in and then eventually
to WWE, so they never got a chance to do
the independent Wrestling super show match against each other. So
it is an absolutely fresh match, So I think that's
one they definitely especially given how much they respect AJ
and they respect Drew, that's one I would treat with

(45:46):
the respect and care it needs for it to mean something.
I think the Fiend is a one off. I would
not do that, but I do think bron Strowman. I
think Bobby Lashley similar to the match I always wanted
to see Lashley versus Brock that just never kind of
came to be. I think a shameless even though he's
going with this peaky blinders look and deal, that might

(46:08):
be a good one off, not too dissimilar to what
we were talking about on the SmackDown side of things
with an Otis, because he can rise to that occasion
and his work even with the neck injuries. It would
be a nice vicious match between those guys. Just keep
it short. But I think that's kind of where it ends.
I think obviously you might want to see where things

(46:29):
are going with and how Garza, but I think that's
way too presumptuous given what's happened with the up and
down treatment of his push in the last few months.
But overall, I think Drew's done a great job during
this and I think he has cemented himself as a
guy they can depend on. Not too dissimilar from, if
I'm being honest, a face version of Randy Orton. They

(46:51):
now know in case emergency break glass we have Drew.

Speaker 1 (46:55):
Drew mcadar, speaking of AJ being his dream match, did
say that summer that AJ was his number one guy.
He hasn't wrestled yet, and he talked about how, you know,
he didn't know why they kept missing each other. They're
like ships in the night, we keep missing each other.
At Impact Wrestling, AJ was gone and on the DC
and they couldn't quite cross paths.

Speaker 2 (47:14):
So that just I mean, I'm looking.

Speaker 1 (47:18):
Forward to that because AJ is an agitating but super
credible heel who is a WWB legacy star now given
his accomplishments when you take his entire resume into consideration,
that is another person that can help establish Drew McIntyre
as they go on this journey. And you know, we've
seen it with John Cena, We've seen it with Roman Reigns.

(47:39):
When when there's a wrestler who is new to the top,
part of establishing them as a true top top guy
is it To do that you have to have feuds
and win feuds against other people who were pay per
view Maine Eventors and AJ and and have good matches
and have good build up and good promos opposite of them.

(47:59):
As one of those guys just like rand Yorton is,
and Orton's even talked about it, you know explicitly that
you have you know, you have to beat me in
order to to build your legacy. AJ is one of
those guys. And I mean, I don't know if they
have that set up to cap and right after Helen
a Cell or if we're going to risk injury to
one of them between now in WrestleMania, and because how
much they want to wrestle each other, they save that
to Mania. You know, when I look at the lay

(48:20):
of the land, I don't know that is that there's
an obvious other choice for WrestleMania other than the Fiend
for Drew McIntyre than AJ Styles. And I'm not saying
they can't try to turn Lashly or Shamous into that,
but I mean I think it's a stretch. So if
they have something else in mind for the fiend for WrestleMania,

(48:41):
then I think it it would make sense to that
AJ Styles would be the guy. And so I guess
that's something to look at after Helen a Cell. Is
if they don't go right to Drew versus AJ, and
they do Seamus or Lashly instead, just to grab a
couple of names. I don't think there's a lot of
other I guess they could turn brown heel if you
not already h if they don't go to AJ right away.

(49:03):
I think that should be on the radar for a
WrestleMania match. For Drew, is that WrestleMania worthy or does
that feel just a notch below WrestleMania worthy?

Speaker 3 (49:11):
Rich? I feel like it would be a okay, I
would answer traditionally that would be a notch below WrestleMania worthy.
If in the current environment they go with another to
night WrestleMania, it would ben by definition become WrestleMania worthy.

Speaker 1 (49:26):
Interesting, Yeah, and why is it I'm neither agreeing or
disagree with you, but why does that feel like it's
a notch below WrestleMania worthy?

Speaker 2 (49:34):
And can that change?

Speaker 3 (49:37):
I think it could, but I feel I would say
it would feel a notch below just because how they've
treated some of you know, like outside like Drew, I
have no problem with this. It's basically, you know, if
it's brought, why it's it just seems like it could
have been so much more, Like you said with shame
is like, sure they could do it, but that's a
step down and so I think if you push that

(49:57):
into a two night WrestleMania, you can really make it worthy,
either with a cinematic match or with something that is
just edited to be quite delectable as far as visually speaking.
One of the other questions would be, too, if it's
a two night WrestleMania to go along with that, whether
or not it's WrestleMania worthy, are you gonna have fans?
Because if you are going to continue and they are
going to stay in Florida or wherever the site's going

(50:18):
to be, you open up the opportunity for fan reactions
to give you that natural excitement that you've been missing
with some of these shows, and with WrestleMania particular last year.

Speaker 1 (50:31):
Anytime you're watching WWE Raw or SmackDown or AEW Dynamite
in particular, send us an email if you've got thoughts
on the show or a topic you want us to
address or a question for us. Wadekellor podcast at pwtorch
dot com, Weadkeller Podcast at pewtorch dot com. If there's
anything else going on in pro wrestling that you want
us to address on our main podcast during our mailbank segments,

(50:53):
that same email applies Wadekellor podcast at pwtorch dot com.
We invite that interaction. Let us know what you think
of what we're saying, and let us know what you
want us to talk about and ask us specific questions.
Wade Keller podcast at PW torch dot com. I want

(51:14):
to talk while we're talking about ROW, about Hurt Business
and in their place over the next few months. What
are the options for Hurt Business in terms of their
place on the card, in terms of how each wrestlers utilized,
in terms of either adding or subtracting wrestlers, and also
just do they stay heal or do they go babyface?
And where does retribution fit in? And to add a

(51:36):
seventeenth question to that, Rich you can pluck whateveryone from this.
What do you think about the way they've been portrayed
opposite of retribution?

Speaker 3 (51:44):
When it started, I thought it was just the worst
broad brush of Black Lives Matter and Antifa that one
could put on outside of maybe a Fox News play.
I think they've evolved them a little bit. I love
the Hurt Business being used, especially by MVP in particular
as this vehicle for a lot of you know, underrepresented

(52:06):
wrestlers who kind of just not just in terms of race,
but in terms of people forget how great Shelton Benjamin
was as a wrestler. I think I love the fact
that they constantly bring that stuff up. This is why
this guy is our heater. This is why we wanted
to recruit Cedric, this is why we thought it would
be great to bring in Apollo. You know, the more

(52:26):
the hurt business has grown, the more you've seen sides
of these guys that you hadn't seen in a while
or at all, And so I think that's been good retribution.
Same thing. It just seems I watched Bad Max on
TBS a couple of weeks ago, and it just seemed
like the worst version of a combination of you know,
mort and Mortan, Joe's Army, and then what you see

(52:48):
in the news. But I saw someone on Twitter and
put up this really thoughtful five tweet thread on why
each person picked their name, and I'm sure put more
thought into it than what was given to the wrestlers.
And then you take it and they make Ali their leader,
and he for me, he brought it home because he

(53:10):
had been doing everything the right way. He had tried
to be the light and no one wanted to see
the light, and so now he's pushing it another way,
and so it gives you that dynamic of he had
a good reason, it's been twisted and you can kind
of see where they're coming from, but also say this
is ridiculous, why are you doing it this way. I

(53:31):
think what they need to do now is they'll lose
the masks, because if you're going to wrestle with those masks,
that's just ridiculous, and just let them have that as
their personas and then wrestle as maybe a different version
of what they've been doing for a while in their characters,
like I don't need to see me agim with that
ridiculous thing on while she's using check yournak or you know,

(53:53):
some stuff like that.

Speaker 2 (53:54):
For instance, all right.

Speaker 3 (53:56):
On the.

Speaker 1 (53:58):
On the raw heal depth chart, is there anybody that
is a candidate to benefit from the lay of the
land post draft? And I throw Ali in there, Angel
Cars you mentioned in Passing Elias.

Speaker 2 (54:14):
I'll even say Shamus, even.

Speaker 1 (54:15):
Though I've talked about him, you know as a former
main eventor is he in a good position. And then
you also just have the the raw underground group, Moss
and Huas and Dabocato, anybody jump out as like, oh yeah,
this is this looks like they've got a chance to rise.

Speaker 2 (54:29):
Or do you think the top you know, four or
five six spots are taken on each each heel and
face side.

Speaker 3 (54:35):
I think the top spots are taken right now. But
I think there is going to always be that opportunity
given to someone like a Dabocato if he can prove
that he can at least talk or captivate to the
point where they can because he's got the size. The
size alone is going to give him the shot. Looking
at everyone else, I don't think they're going to give
us and Moss maybe the the mic time. I think

(54:55):
Moss might get the visual time because he still looks
like an Adonis h Garza is the one to me
out of all of the people that we kind of mentioned,
Garza or Elias, because Elias I think we've seen parentally
get that opportunity. But Garza, if he is positive in
the light they started where he's the you know, he's
the lithario, the sexy man that just knows how good

(55:18):
he is and is you know, pre covid giving women
kisses on the cheek and all this stuff. Now you
look at that in hindsight, it's like, oh man, oh wow,
that was kind of roulette there. But I think he
can really do it. I think if you gave him
that opportunity, and you don't have to do it by
saying he's the next Eddie Guerrero, let him be on
how Garza and I think that would be very helpful

(55:39):
for him and his career, to be honest, because you
don't want that bar to have to clear to even
get to where you think you're going to be as
a wrestler, as a heel.

Speaker 2 (55:47):
What do you think is the upside for umberto career
right now?

Speaker 1 (55:50):
What have you thought of his performances so far and
how has that changed week to week or over over
the time that he's been on ROP.

Speaker 3 (55:56):
He's another wrestler, I think again, that could be a
really strong erstwhile just hard work and babyface that you'd
give that opportunity to and he claws his way to
wherever he goes. I think he could be a good
US champion and be the guy that kind of works
his way through not too dissimilar from how they did
things earlier. Before you know, Cedric and everything else happened

(56:17):
with the Hert business. I think you'll lead people like that,
just like with Shamus on the heel side. I don't
think he's going to be a main event, but I
think he could be a gatekeeper from the mid card
to upper mid card or from upper mid card down
to lower mid cards. So I think he can kind
of float between those spaces and be whatever they need,
similar to what he was doing with Biggie before he
departed SmackDown. He just needs someone like a big ee,

(56:38):
and I think of Humberto could be that guy where
he bullies them and bullies them into having good matches,
and I think that would be helpful.

Speaker 1 (56:45):
I was kind of about to see Dominic Knabarto went
up on different brands because I thought that had a
chance to be a really good take team and sort
of bridge them to the next phase of each of
their careers where things might come too quickly and they
might be put in a position to do too many jobs,
be defined down or be looked looked at as if
they're in over their head. But they can't stay teaming

(57:06):
because they're in separate brands right now. So Dominic, same
question about Dominic the less of a timeline with him
the numberto but what is his.

Speaker 2 (57:15):
Has he impressed you? Do you think that he's impressed
you enough?

Speaker 1 (57:18):
They should, you know, really push him hard or do
you think they need to throw out a little bit,
pull back and let things breathe a little bit after
thee after the seth feud ends, before they feature him
as much as I have.

Speaker 3 (57:31):
Well, I think, like I said when we started talking
about New Japan, I talked about the sea block. I
think of the same thing with Dominic's the closest we
get to that because he's a guy well trained by
Lance Storm and has that baseline under him. We saw
his first match at SummerSlam, and so that is amazing

(57:51):
to me that he is doing what he's doing now
and learning on national television and so with EA move
with each opportunity. I think, while he doesn't need to
be in the limelight, he needs to be on TV
as much as possible to learn those little nuances from
a very giving and a like a no point in

(58:12):
the history of this company have you been surrounded on
either brand with this many wrestlers who would be willing
to work with you and develop you in the fly
without having the boss tell you to do it. If
you go back to like Triple H's era when he
was the King of Kings, wrestlers would have done that.
Would Triple H have done that? I would say no category,

(58:34):
because we have evidence of those things not happening and
being pushed to the wayside. And so I think staying
with his dad, the more he can kind of just
stay cool with his dad, and his dad's kind of
his mentor slash occasional tag partner, occasional corner man. Dad's
going to be good. Eventually, He's going to need that
opportunity where I'm trying to I'm looking here and the

(58:56):
one person I think would be a good person for
him in this isn't active right now, and I wish
he was, and that's Samoa Joe. Some Moa Joe would
be a great person for Dominic to wrestle because he
would slap Dominic in the face and say, your daddy
isn't here right now, look at me. And he needs
that match, not the Seth smartminess. He needs that guy
to pull that out of him. So it's like take

(59:17):
off the little like the the only other person I
think of what those bodysuits are dustin runnels. The dustin runnels,
zip zip up onesies kind of like my son wears,
Like wear whatever you're gonna wear and just be a
man out there and wrestle and fight me. And I
think he needs that. And I can't see anyone right
now outside of say a Lars Sullivan, who I don't

(59:38):
think he's sophisticated enough to get out of dominic what
needs to be gotten out of some Both of them
gained from it, so I think it's got to be him,
or even a Bobby Route. I think Bobby would do
a good job with that, actually, not that I think
about it.

Speaker 9 (59:52):
Searching for more great pro wrestling talk, then join me
Jason Powell, host of the three weekly Pro Wrestling Boom Podcast.
Each week, he'll he the latest news and analysis for
me and my team at pro wrestling dot Net along
with other pro wrestling media members. Plus the Pro Wrestling
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(01:00:13):
your favorite secondary apps, or visit us directly at PW
boom dot com. Once again, that's PW Boom dot com.

Speaker 1 (01:00:27):
Let's get some time to the women's division on Ron
Smackdonald Star with SmackDown. Bailey's still the champion and she's
still on SmackDown, and Sasha Banks is also still on SmackDown.
At some point they're gonna have to split off. We
talked about this in our Draft Special roundtable earlier this
week here on the Way Keller Prosing podcast Blue Logo
Show that it looks like there's just two other top

(01:00:51):
wrestlers on the SmackDown women's roster, and that is Bianco
bell Aaroncarmela other Anyone else to be worthy of feuding
with Sasha or Bailey would need to get a pretty
good elevation. Billy Kay's Alena and Natalia Ruby Riitt Live
Morgan to Mina. So is it just a given that
Bailey's next feud is Bianca and that Bianca's a baby face,

(01:01:12):
and that Sasha's next feud is Carmela and Carmela is
a heel, Or is there a chance those are backwards
and Carmela somehow ends up being a face and Bianca
is a heel and those are the first couple feuds?
Or am I under selling the possibility or or downplaying
the possibility of somebody else among those I just mentioned

(01:01:32):
ending I'm trying to think if there's a free agent
like a Mickey James or something. But yeah, is there
anybody else who could end up paired off against Sasha
and Bailey?

Speaker 3 (01:01:40):
Yeah? I think Mickey had the broken nose, so that's
why she kind of they like held off on the
draft with her, so that makes sense. I think Mickey
would be another good one. Uh. I think Bianca would
be the person I would posit to me, I see
her as a babyface, but from the way they show
her in those mister perfect As vignettes, it seems like
they're trying to deposit her as a heel because she

(01:02:02):
keeps upstaging men, which to me seems like a face
thing to do. I'm so good, it doesn't matter who
you are. But I could see, based on the people
making these decisions, that not necessarily being their goal. So
I don't know which way it would go with Carmela
and Bianca, because I think they're interchangeable in terms of
being face or heel, not necessarily in their rest and style.
I want to be clear on that. Outside of those two,

(01:02:24):
Natalia is what Natalia always has been, which is the
technically sound Heart family member they will use to wrestle
and or embarrassed depending on what they need politically and
or on the screen. Billy Kay, I have no high
hopes for Zelena. I think will be a good talker.
But even before she was a manager, when she had
been wrestling for a while, that wasn't exactly what her

(01:02:46):
strength was. It really had become being the manager and
organizing her squads. I hope that has changed, but you know,
we'll see outside of them Sasha and I mentioned this earlier.
I kind of made an allusion to itsh as a person.
Where as those commitments start to build up with the
Mandalorian and if people start to give her a critical acclaim,

(01:03:08):
I'm putting an asterisk by her name because how long
do you get to use her and will you use
her newfound fame to point towards the Blue brand while
she's there? That That's going to be my big question
because they didn't really push as much as they could
have when Roman was in the movie The Hobs and Shaw.
So if Sasha is going to become Disney's newest starlett,

(01:03:30):
how are they going to treat her.

Speaker 1 (01:03:33):
I was surprised that they didn't move them to separate brand,
so I'm still trying to figure out why that is.
So let's if we look at Raw in the lay
of the land. There, you got Osca as a current champion.
You have ni Jackson Baseler's potential champions, but they're in
a tag team right now with the Belts, and then
you have Charlotte returning, and there's probably the answer that

(01:03:55):
Raw's going to be Charlotte's brand, whether she comes back
as a heel or face, and then it's just gonna
be you know, lining up opponents for her, and you know,
there's a bunch of possible opponents for Naomi. Uh if
if Charlotte's heel, then Naomi, Nikki Cross, Osca, maybe Mandy
if they break her off from Dana. Already they planted
the seat of a breakup with Dana saying there's no

(01:04:16):
jealousy here.

Speaker 2 (01:04:16):
That's a key for there's gonna be jealousy. If Charlotte
comes back as a babyface, then.

Speaker 1 (01:04:22):
You know, in Shana stays heel, you've got a potential
feud there that feels fresher. Plus whatever they're doing with
Alexa Bliss. If she's with a Fiend, then you could
do I don't know, Fiend and Alexa against Charlotte Androte
if they team Androte up with Charlotte. Yeah, so, I mean,
I I think the raw situation is up.

Speaker 2 (01:04:40):
In the air. Other than once Charlotte's back, it's gonna
be her brand, her, her, her, the raw women's roster
is she is the alpha of that.

Speaker 3 (01:04:52):
Yeah, and that leads to potential trades with say Osca
and Sasha. If you in the sack Down mixed might
be a better chemistry. And now Charlotte and Sasha has
always been a go to as far as their relationship.
Charlotte's with the wins on tele on pay per views.
Typically Sasha would win back on TV and then not

(01:05:14):
defend it. You know, that sort of relationships already there. Additionally,
if you wanted to bring in that X factor, I
think Rhea Ripley needs to go where Charlotte isn't, so
she would be a good person for SmackDown.

Speaker 2 (01:05:27):
Yes exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:05:28):
And the call ups and the trades are always the
X factors and certainly vincec Mann have some of that
in mind. And that's where you can go a little
too far and try to look for you know, are
they going to revive Lacy Evans or give a big
push to Peyton Royce. And it's like, wait a second,
there's other things in the pipeline they can do through
trades and call ups that are just flat out more
likely than some of the dark horses getting a push

(01:05:50):
to wrap up kind of the draft talk. Looking at
the tag team situation, they literally had new day in
the street profits trade tag team titles Street Profits now
on SmackDown.

Speaker 2 (01:06:01):
Excuse yeah, let me get this. Yes, they put the.

Speaker 1 (01:06:03):
Backdown and they are the SmackDown Take Team champions or
are they the raw tag champs and they just have
the SmackDown belts because they're matching colors. Will at you know,
Wikipedia and the record keeper, the record keepers figure that out.
But then they're just looking at Czaro, Nakamura and Siglarin
rude as established teams to feud with. But frankly, that's
enough to get them through six months the way they
would be books a tag division and then over on

(01:06:24):
over on raw you got a new day and then
you possibly have teams from hurt business like Cedric and Shelton.
You have missing more so have been jobbed out, but
you know they could do that as a feud or
a match a pair from Retribution and then I guess
Lucha House Party they'd be a weird matchup anyone else
jumped to mind?

Speaker 2 (01:06:44):
Uh for New Day? Because New Day's a big act.
You want to feed them some top level opponents.

Speaker 1 (01:06:51):
And is that I mean other than Cedric and Shelton
trying to establish them as a top level team in
a hot faction right now? I think they'd end up
had to have New Date against two heels who teamed
up who aren't currently a team, and I don't know
who that is, but you know, maybe that's what's next
for Randy, is Randy teaming up with somebody to give
New Day a main event level opponent. I just I

(01:07:14):
don't think you can move Kofe and Xavier to Raw
and have them be a lower card act. So you
want to have top tier opponents for them.

Speaker 3 (01:07:22):
Yeah, And I think the first thing I would look
at is the opportunity for some of the folks that
are in the team Raw Underground they might have a
one off tag match against them, things like that, and
just for a second weight, I knew I forgot something.
When you look at the women on RAW, I would

(01:07:45):
be remiss if I didn't mention the fact that I
mentioned it earlier. You also have me Am and who
else is into hurt business? I'm sorry, retribution. I'm going
to feel so bad when I remember her name in
a second. But you have two really strong women who
could wrestle. Now, I don't know how they're gonna wrestle

(01:08:06):
with en gimmick, but that's you know, neither here nor there.
So that's another group of women for the for the pool,
so to speak, for Raw, and then for the tag titles,
New Days gonna have the hurt business, They're gonna have
miss and Morrison. I hope they would put a team
together of someone in Ricochet just so he has something
to do outside of the hurt business if I wants
that's done. And then you also have uh They found

(01:08:29):
the way to get back at Cody and Brandy Rhodes
by having Matt and Jeff Hardy. Uh. So that is
another option for them as far as tag titles explain that. Remember,
legally Cody doesn't use Cody Roads, so they say Cody
and Brandy Rhods. So that way you put that gotcha
and solely say so, now you have Matt and Jeff Hardy,

(01:08:52):
whereas the Matt in this case is actually Matt Riddle.
And I've noticed that when they started on smack I
was like, wait a minute, why would you? Oh, now
that's met the impaired, annoyed and overthinking things. And also
I am that person that's furiously trying to figure out
how you put on Wikipedia. Is this the tenth tag
rain for the New Day or a transitionary tag title.
I've given up because I don't want my nose to bleed.

(01:09:14):
But yeah, that's Oh, that's frustrating. They should have just
counted the separate rain. I'm not gonna argue with you
on your own podcast. Yes, fits, I see the same thing,
but I also see Ray and Dominic mysterial on SmackDown
is an opportunity. I think them having tag titles as
a father and son team would be a nice story,
whereas that would be a face and face team up.

(01:09:34):
But I think that would be a nice thing for again,
a safeway for Raid to kind of take Dominic and
put him under his wing for a little longer whenever
the Street Profits did lose them, So that would be
an option as well.

Speaker 1 (01:09:50):
You don't have to wait for the weight Keller Pro
Wrestling post show to find out what I thought of
Monday Night Raw and SmackDown. Each week, you can check
out my reports that are updated live throughout Raw and
Small at pwtorch dot com. My written report will tell
you what's happening in detail in case you missed the show,
and it will also analyze key segments and give my
random thoughts quips on what I am watching as it airs.

(01:10:13):
So check it out every Monday night and Tuesday night
at pwtorch dot com. That also applies to wwepayperviews. I
cover those live at pw torch dot com with a
detailed written report with star ratings. And of course you
can find other TV reports from other contributors to PW
torch such as nxt roh Impact Wrestling and more. Check
it out pwtorch dot com your first stop for TV

(01:10:36):
and pay perview written reports.

Speaker 2 (01:10:50):
All right, Street Profits, We have an email on on this,
so let's introduce Jack from Swansea, Wales. Says, Hey, wait
and Rich both of you.

Speaker 1 (01:11:01):
Hope both you are safe and while I've been watching
a lot of early two thousand PA per view matches
on the network, and I was thinking of watching Booker
t on WW and his WB days and only remember
his run as King Booker. But my god, he was
a freak athlete And the first person that popped into
my head was Montese Ford, a Tay Team guy who
has incredible chrism and athleticism. Do you think down the
road WW will take a chance on him like they
have done with Jay Uso. I grew Grieth you Wade.

(01:11:24):
He's over the top at times. It needs to tone
it down at certain times, but I seriously think they've
got incredible singles wrestler on their hands. I think he
has the best frog splash I've ever seen him wrestling,
and I loved RVD, so that's saying something. What do
you guys think can be the upside with him? I
just want to point out how good does that SmackDown
locker room look? And the people you'd want to be
traveling around the world with, Roman, Sammy Ko, Biggie, Daniel,

(01:11:47):
Brian Bianca, Street Prophets, Alistair Black Zelina, all people who
just seem like great people outside the business. And then
you have Lars Sullivan. Thanks guys for the great content
and stay safe, So introduce that into the conversation here.
I think the street Profits stay together for quite a
while longer. And Cizzarro and Schitzky and Dolphin Rude are

(01:12:08):
you know, obviously the two opponents that they'll face initially.
Then they can mix and match some other heels perhaps
at some other point. But your thoughts on the street
profits immediate future and then also as Jack brings up
the long term potential of Montes for.

Speaker 3 (01:12:24):
Oh okay, So, Montes I think is great. As Cam,
one of my partners on the East Coast cast always
mentions he's gotten next. He sees him as like that
next breakout star as the singles guy in WW SO,
I think the sky's limits for him as well. Yeah,
similar Booker t He's a guy who there isn't anything
in the ring he can't do. It's just a matter

(01:12:45):
of getting him. Similar to what we were saying earlier
about the New Day, Montes has a personality and he
has that when he wants to smoke really and not
that we want the smoke kind of silliness. He just
has to figure out where in that gauge it needs
to be. Is like six and a half seven, because
right now it's on ten, and so once he tones
it back and he gets a little more understated, kind
of like when they did when they were feuding with

(01:13:10):
the Viking Raiders before it turned into Battle of the
Network Stars. I think that that helps them in terms
of oh and two quick corrections Mercedes Martinez and Swansea Raid.
I know there was probably someone from the United Kingdom
that's I'm sure Will Yeah, I got your back on

(01:13:32):
that one, and so yeah, I think his long term
and then as the Street Profits as a team, I
think they're gonna be fine. I think my fear is
what's gonna happen to my guy once montes moves away,
because it took a good bit for when those guys
came together for them to kind of find that group,
because when you look at the Street Profits, when you

(01:13:53):
look at Montes Ford, he kind of found things. And
then before that, the Angelo Dawkins you can find if
you search Angelo Dawkins on Daily Motion, you can find
his old FCW training videos where he was Sasha Banks's
best book bag wearing sidekick. So he's been there for

(01:14:14):
a minute. In terms of like trying to figure out
who he was, what he was when him and Montees
got together, not too dissimilar from the revival. Before they
got together, it was just what is Dawkins going to
be doing before? Or Dawson? Sorry, what was gonna be
doing before? You know? Dash came along? And so you
got you got to think about that. And I think

(01:14:35):
that answered the question did I miss anything? No?

Speaker 2 (01:14:37):
But where where is he in five years?

Speaker 3 (01:14:40):
Five years? I think he's gonna be at least a
two time in ocondo champion and probably at the tail
end of his first title reign as a universal Wow.

Speaker 2 (01:14:50):
Okay, sounds good? Is is his frame? Those legs are thin.
There's only so much you can do in the weight room.
Does that matter? Does it matter a little? But he'll overcome?
Is it a plus?

Speaker 1 (01:15:05):
Because he's just so distinct and it adds to that
athleticism and as Jack talks about that that frog splash
in the lift. But you know, I watch him in
there and sometimes I just I imagine vincment Man looking
at him and going, it's not credible to have him
against some of my top heels. But you can also
make the case A lot of promoters would look at
that and go Oh, I want this guy to fight
from underneath, make his comeback to the chronicle crazy because

(01:15:26):
of that charisma.

Speaker 3 (01:15:28):
I think it's gonna be I'm gonna borrow Rick Rude.
It's gonna be enoup of body business for him as
he develops and as he as a wrestler, not as
a body type. But he might need to just work
on his upper body a little bit more to take
the attention away from his smaller frame. But I don't
think it, like you said, it's not gonna be as
big a deal. It's not going to be a killer.
I do think that for him, he needs to focus

(01:15:50):
on making sure he stays healthy. So if he needs
to add a little bit more weight to the legs
and he loses a little lift on the frog splash,
so be it. But he never wants and put himself
in a position where he starts to look disproportionate, to
like if he's if he look like you know, one
of those like dog memes where it's like this bulldog

(01:16:11):
with the chest all the way out to here and
then little spin ley legs, that'd be able. But I
think if he he added like another bit of weight,
kind of like when Drew McIntyre talked with you a
couple of years ago and said he added that quote
unquote man weight and went from being a more skinnier
guy to like a thicker dude. I think that would
help all right.

Speaker 1 (01:16:27):
Along the draft conversation continuing here, uh Brian says, is
there a chance there will be a round of NXT
call ups in the next few weeks to supplement the draft?
And he had has any ideas on who that would be,
and also any chance of undrafted free agents from Ron
SmackDown showing up in NXT. So you know, Andrade wasn't

(01:16:49):
in the draft, Mickey James wasn't broken nose. You know
that could be right, A Mojo Rawley could end up
in retribution or you know who knows with him, they
can't last three weeks with an idea with him. There
weren't a ton of undrafted candidates to me that jump
out as like NXT worthy. But on either side of
those things, you know, Ria Ripley, Damian Priest, We've mentioned

(01:17:11):
them though the most likely who else seems like a
potential or likely call up?

Speaker 3 (01:17:16):
I would say, like Ripley's the biggest one to me.
And then after Ripley on the men's side. You just
mentioned him. I think priests would be it. The only
other person I would consider would be if you bought
them up as a tandem of the Garganos. But they're
so darn entertainment on NXT. I don't know, and I

(01:17:37):
don't know if they'd get the treatment they would deserve
up there, unless you brought that psychotic couple deal as
their gimmick.

Speaker 5 (01:17:44):
Going to the main roster, I'm Kelly Wells, host of
PWT Talks NXT, the longest running NXT podcast Anywhere. Join
me along with Nate Limberg, Bruce Lee, Hazelwood, and special guests,
live every Tuesday night, just minutes after NXT, where we

(01:18:05):
cover the good, the bad, and the ugly on the
way to becoming a star in WWE. Check us out
live on YouTube or stream later wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 2 (01:18:24):
Let's stray off. Well, I don't know this.

Speaker 1 (01:18:26):
I guess it still counts as as current roster we
just talked about. I brought up retribution another email here
from Bruce Lee PhD from Seattle. About six weeks ago,
I made a semi serious prediction in a group chat
that the hacker either became Retribution or as some connection
to the group. With many including myself, believing the hacker
was mustaff All Lee, it seems that my prediction came
true in a sense. I thought the connection was made

(01:18:48):
more apparent by Retribution members all wearing the same garb
as a hacker, all black everything with hoodies.

Speaker 2 (01:18:53):
To obscure the faces.

Speaker 1 (01:18:54):
So my question is, what do you think are the
chances w harkening to the hacker and all revealing revealing
Ali as the leader was the plan all along?

Speaker 2 (01:19:06):
Thanks for taking time for email. Everyone go vip, wear
a mask and vote.

Speaker 3 (01:19:13):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:19:13):
So where what do you think about Alli being revealed
as as the leader? And where does this go from here?
And can you make that connection between the hacker and
Retribution or is there are there still connections to be made.

Speaker 3 (01:19:31):
I think there are connections that could be made, but
they might just let them fall by the wayside and
go unconnected and we do it ourselves. But I think
to Bruce's point, doct Bruce's point that is that again,
like I was saying before, with Ali being the light,
he wanted to shed a light on things and then
try to take it into his own hands, becoming the
hacker now Retribution. That makes a ton of sense, But

(01:19:51):
I don't know if they're going to make that connection
for us, just like they didn't make the connection of
the Live Morgan Lana all that crazy and this now
resulting in her being divorced from Lashley and her and
Live not knowing each other exists still somehow, Yeah, and I.

Speaker 1 (01:20:08):
Mean and Bruce pointed out also in the email that
you know, Ali and his Twitter post is kind of
making showing pictures of members being done wrong, and we
might need to rely on Ali connecting dots on Twitter
more than WWB doing so overtly. I don't know if
finsic Man exactly has a history feeling obliged to connect
dots or round out storylines that were sort of dropped,

(01:20:33):
but that potential is there, and perhaps just Ali and
the writers can come up with something off of Vince's
radar that is a little bit of a of a
message to fans that there is a connection. Is are
you in the camp that Ali pulled Retribution down because
he's been defined down or do you are you in
the camp of Ali being revealed as a member of Retribution,
As Mick Foley tweeted, almost immediately. I'm in favor of

(01:20:54):
anything that gets All Lee more of a push. Is
All Lee actually a really good spokesman because he's been
underutilized and he's one of those talents kind of like
a Daniel Brian for instance, where he's so talented and
as such a natural connection to the fans that when
he gets a push, fans will disregard bad booking and
embrace him in a higher position. I've loaded my question
because I'm hopeful that's the case, and I think that's

(01:21:16):
the case.

Speaker 3 (01:21:17):
But how about you, I do, and I think it's
because of that same reason you mentioned. He is doing
the leg work not only on television but on Twitter,
and it's showing it's the opposite in fact of what
happened when keat Lee had his music and his outfit
changed and they went on there and said, hey, guys,
I can't control this. It's just like it is what
it is. Don't get mad at me. And so I

(01:21:37):
think when you have Ali go out there and say, yeah,
here's why they're mad, I know why they're mad. And yeah,
what you're pointing out, as far as discrepancies aren't discrepancies.
They're actually a long string of misdeeds and treating someone
less than and this is why they all came together.

(01:21:57):
And so I think the more he does that, the
more fans will see him as the people's hacker, I guess,
and Retribution suffer. I think for them that they have
to be ready for the possibility at Retributions then seen
as a face organization.

Speaker 1 (01:22:12):
Because Vince hook mahon might not see Retribution as babyfaces.
But if everything they say in their message resonates with
fans as yeah, I relate to that, you know, fans
might perceive them that way. The problem is Vince doesn't
have that crowd feedback anymore to show him, to audibly
indicate to him that he's doing something against the grain

(01:22:33):
of his audience. And so I you know, we're reaching
a point where you know, there was early on there
was a stage where you're like, well, God, maybe Apollo
Cruz will have more of a chance to get himself
over because the crowd isn't not reacting and he's talented,
they you know, in the crowds just weren't giving him
a chance. So if he gets a push and the
rug's not pulled out from under him, maybe he can
win fans over before they have a chance to not react,

(01:22:55):
and when he shows up, they will react. I think
we're reaching a zone now where there's a chance vincc
Man the opposite happens. He starts leaning on things that
he likes, that he thinks are Of course, this is
how people will react to this gimmick, and he's going
to lose connection, the connection to the fan base, and
not actually have the feedback he needs to stay on course.
So Retribution might fall into that zone.

Speaker 3 (01:23:17):
Yeah, and you look at everything else that's going on,
Like with Roman, it's quite clear because he could pipe
in the audio he wanted him booed, and so with Retribution,
if you keep hearing booze. But then the people in attendance,
as you start to have more folks and attendants and cheering,
you're now getting that let's go seeing a scene of sucks,
but you're having the ability to lean into it and
figure it out. It'll be really interesting to see how

(01:23:38):
they do that, especially with the video walls as well,
because if people start, you know, you might not be
able to hear them. But if you look at that
thunderdome and people are like their arms are in the
air and they're like throwing their fists or you know,
what retribution needs is something akin to the nation a domination,
like a hand signal that everyone can do and show
solidarity and then see how that goes if people start

(01:24:00):
when it with him.

Speaker 1 (01:24:02):
Speaking of the crowds, We got an email from Jason
B a VIP member from Saint Louis, and he says, hey,
Rich and Wade, has there been any further discussions about
extending the contract with that would be an amway to
host the Thunderdome. I believe the contract runs out at
the end of the month. Rich, what's the latest.

Speaker 2 (01:24:17):
You've heard on that. I believe.

Speaker 1 (01:24:18):
I heard that they were there sort of indefinitely, but
I can't remember if there was official word on that.

Speaker 3 (01:24:24):
Yeah, there was supposed to be the end of this month,
but they made an agreement to go to the end
of year.

Speaker 6 (01:24:29):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:24:30):
Alex McCarthy reported that back in October. This is October
three days ago. Oh my god, this is the days
the days.

Speaker 1 (01:24:42):
Yeah, so yes, Tony Shavanni thought he's thatt Aw had
been on the air since nineteen ninety nine last night,
so I mean, Tony.

Speaker 3 (01:24:49):
I mean, after what happened to him at the Salon.
I'm surprised he isn't in PTSD counseling, because that is
no person needs to go through that sort of waxing
on national television, let alone have it happen in the
presence of a role model.

Speaker 1 (01:25:07):
Yes, yes, What do you think of the new setup
for NXT the Capital Wrestling Center, and what's your assessment
of Thunderdome and then compare that to AW the other
prominent live national cable presentation at Daily's place with clusters
of fans. What are the pros and cons of each
of the three setups right now?

Speaker 3 (01:25:27):
Oh gosh, So I think I like the CWC setup,
especially with this the steel cage mesh. I know it's
not COVID friendly in terms of like protecting from particulates,
but I like that it feels like what Raw Underground
to me, was in my head before the reality appeared.
And I still don't like Thunderdome. Thunderdome to me is

(01:25:51):
just it's unnerving with the screens that in your face.
I like the way they do it at the CWC,
where you have the actual fans that can get up,
stand up, move around, and then at a level above
you have the screens. I think that's a good compromise.
And then on the AW side, I don't mind the
way the setup where they have the employees basically or
the super fans in the in the front row, and

(01:26:13):
that kind of makes it easier to do things. I
think Moxley showed the danger of fans in the crowd
when you're doing a crowd walkthrough a couple of weeks
ago back, you know, during the pay per view if
memory serves uh. And so that still needs to be
ironed out. But for the most part, Daily's Place has
been really functional in terms of getting so much out

(01:26:33):
of it in terms of, you know, in and out
the Jaguars Stadium, the ability to brawl, an arena style.
You know, there's so many things, there's so many activities
of a borrow the step Brothers quote for them that
I think it works. So I think out of the three,
I would go with CWC the AW setup, and then Thunderdome.

Speaker 1 (01:26:50):
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(01:27:11):
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Speaker 2 (01:27:52):
All right, let's pivot to talking about AW.

Speaker 1 (01:27:56):
We're one year into AW Dynamite on TNT twenty one year.
According Tony Shavani, as we've been giving them a hard
time about last night on the post show, I suggested
that the highlights for aw weren't necessarily a specific match
or a specific promo, but three or four big themes
for AW. In terms of what I think of their

(01:28:18):
first year, the high points I think The high points
include the crowds. We just talked about the setups right
now in the COVID era, pre covid AW, crowds and
their enthusiasm for the wrestlers was a huge, I think
factor in AW, seeming like the happening show, the show
that was more connected to the fan base. Now, it

(01:28:39):
didn't lead to growth in viewership. We'd had such a
small sample size. Their best viewership still was the first
week when there's a lot of curiosity, But in terms
of just the vibe they gave off as not a
flavor of the week that's going to fade away, was
that perpetual crowd enthusiasm. So that's a big thing. And
then Chris Jericho's performances. It's one of my favorite years

(01:28:59):
of Jericho's as a as a character. You know in
the ring, he's been you know, up and down and
largely fine, with some highs and some some some lows,
but at his age that's going to be a given.
And with the range of opponents he's had. And then
you just have Cody uh coming across as such a
big star. And then you have the use of Moxley
and how Moxley has really shined.

Speaker 2 (01:29:20):
Is just getting to be who he is.

Speaker 1 (01:29:24):
So those are I guess four highlights for me of
aw's first year in a more macro sense.

Speaker 3 (01:29:30):
What are do you have? Uh? Oh?

Speaker 1 (01:29:32):
And actually I will add and I think this was
one of my four last night. Actually is the fact
that Darby Allen, Sammy Gevara, Uh, who's the third one? Oh,
Orange Cassidy. Like, there's these sort of indie stars who
snuck up and turned out to be top tier players
for that for that show. So I guess maybe those
are five major themes that I think are a defining

(01:29:55):
trade of AW Dynamite's first year of what marked their
success and their idea. Is there something else in a
kind of a big macro sense that you would use,
that you would introduce to displace one of my five?
And then also just you have like an actual specific
match or angle or promo that stands out to you
from aw's first year.

Speaker 3 (01:30:13):
Sure, So I would say one of the things that
would stand out to me with AW in the year
in terms of positives that you didn't mention was I
would say the usage of the people on the other
side of the camera, the support staff. So what I
mean by that is the ability to pivot over the

(01:30:33):
course of this year and have Tony Shabani not only
become one of the voices of AW and not just WCW,
not just for nostalgia purposes, but become wrestling's favorite uncle.
And so he transitioned into this guy that people remember
Grace and I hearstory are a sport to someone who
is carrying along storylines from AW. He's doing a podcast

(01:30:56):
every week where they're diving into some of the character
work that they couldn't do on television with the people involved.
He's still working with Comrade Thompson and doing his show
and remembering wrestling. And then on top of that, when
they have events like Starcast, when they have anything they
need to get over that Jim Ross, it's like, not
to the Jim Ross level, he's entrusted to do it,

(01:31:17):
most notably Cody's promos. When he does those promos in
the middle of the ring, it's always to his right
Tony Shavani and I think that is awesome because that
shows and we've seen it not just with him, but
he's the symbol for it that you can treat older wrestlers,
you can treat the history of wrestling, you can treat

(01:31:38):
all of this with respect without just saying it's just
wrestling or demeaning those people who came before. I think
in any other environment in sports, in movies, when you
have someone there's always that scene where you have like
the Four Bearers, you know I'm trying to think of,
you know, when you have that moment where Picard meets Kirk,

(01:31:58):
or you have you know, the baton being passed when
the Rock did the rundown and Arnold Swarzenegger's in the
first open and see and say, you know, basically like
you got this. But in wrestling, especially with w W
in the last twenty years, people have been conditioned to
if it's old, if it's out of place, it stinks.
And so having Shavani there has been a really good
thing to mend that relationship and the teach. There's another way.

(01:32:21):
I think the scension of Brook Britt Baker is something else,
and she has gone and gone on record mentioning she's
used a lot of the tricks that Jericho did earlier
in his career because he's also been a good mentor
and instead of just having a great year in front
of the camera, he's had a great year working with
some of those people behind that. I think Scorpio Sky
has been a person that they kind of gave the

(01:32:42):
ball to. Tony Kahan mentioned trying to give wrestlers a color,
particularly black wrestlers. In the single scene more of an opportunity.
He was the person who cited and then Will hobbs
by the end of the year. But in the middle
they got to do work. They still have to do
work with the women's division. And finally, I think something
they can hang their hat on is fearlessness. They have
gone about and put people on television prior to this

(01:33:05):
point that have been said by numerous people would not
make money, and they've made money with them Orange Cassidy.
In a million years, I would never imagine sitting it
all out and talking with one of my friends, talking
with Dan Keaster and saying, this is a guy I've
seen in the indies and now he's in a Battle Royal.
You fast forward a year later, he's one of their

(01:33:25):
top players in the middle car middle of the card,
moving to the upper mid card. That's awesome. I've seen
Darby Ellen get thrown by Sheer Ego Ethan Page into
a crowd and have to run out of his way,
and now he's sitting up in the rafters as a
respected member of that roster. I think they've done a
great job, and I hope in the years to come
they keep it up, just keep doing it and then

(01:33:46):
fixing those issues that people push back on and don't
just take it as quote unquote hate.

Speaker 1 (01:33:51):
Would you consider it's so tough with the pandemic, but
has atably been more successful, as successful or less successful
than you went to dissipated going into the first episode
of Dynamite, I think they've.

Speaker 3 (01:34:04):
Been more successful, to be honest. I think going in
a company that was going to be founded by wrestlers
in the exec and a person that had been a
long time wrestling fan, there had been a lot of
pushback that there was going to be a vanity project
and all this, But I was like, what wrestling company
is in a vanity project? That that rings hollow to me.
So I think a year in having that second contract

(01:34:24):
wait is the thing that makes it above Because if
they didn't have that second contract that renewal prior to
the pandemic hitting, they would be they and Tony Conson,
they would be in trouble yep, regardless of how well
it would be on TV financially, that would have been
a problem. And so I think that is the highest
sign of praise. And I think regardless of you know,
the ratings, you do a great job with showing the

(01:34:46):
big fifty two picture instead of just the roller coaster.
So people get shaken up as if this was you know,
one of the letter cable stations and pick a side.
I think, looking at this with a sober mind in
five hundred foot view, they've done more than I thought
was possible because they've made in roads with a fan
base and created a fan base that wants them to

(01:35:07):
do more. I think they they have a standard. They've
been saying things, you know, since their inception that they're
gonna be. They have to be careful with that, that
they're going to be more than you know, what wrestling is.
They're going to change the world, most notably by Kenny Omega.
And sometimes trip over the grandiose nature of what they say,
but just keep getting base hits or you know, when

(01:35:29):
I was as a football coach, one of the things
you know in old altruis I mean, never go broke,
turn into profit. So just keep building on these blocks
of success instead of just trying to literally in their case,
I guess, you know, just just keep doing this. But
I do think particularly because they've made guys like Orange Cassidy,
they've made Nila Rose, I wish they would have done

(01:35:52):
more with Sonny Kiss, but even some of the stuff
they posited Sonny in and Joey Janella. Honestly, I've said
this to my buddy Chris, who's been on the Deep
divewom times. Joey Janella needs to get credit for being
the talent scout that never gets the gold star. He
should because while the big names of the executive vice presidents,
you look at any of those indie stars and they

(01:36:12):
were on a GCW show or a Joey Janella sping
break well before they got to ae W, and they've
done nothing but continue with the good the door being
opened by Joey, and I hope that they keep that
up because if you watch as he's doing stuff on ADAW,
he's still working in the indies. They had that collective
this weekend or two weekends ago. And while there was

(01:36:34):
some issues with COVID that have now come up, because
you know, when you're in India, not a multi national
organization or a scion of a billionaire you have, you
don't necessarily get get the chance to get judged on
the safety measures you should have taken that the other
folks did. But you know, you have folks that are
still coming up. Of Lee Moriarty, for instance, was a

(01:36:55):
wrestler that kind of made his name over the weekend
that could be a great wrestler to them in aw
or just keep using them. And so that's why I
think they're more successful than they could have been, because
it isn't just an impact where it's look at what
we did. We didn't die. No, these guys have survived
and thrived over this past year.

Speaker 10 (01:37:19):
I'm Kelly Wells, host of the Seven Star podcast, the
new ongoing Torch show covering the world of New Japan
pro wrestling. We'll drop new episodes as major shows and
noteworthy events dictate and.

Speaker 9 (01:37:31):
I'm Chris Lansdell join us as we cover the ever
changing landscape of New Japan as they navigate an era with.

Speaker 3 (01:37:37):
No lack of talent, but I really need to create
some new styles. You can stream the new seven Stole
podcasts now from Pro Wrestling.

Speaker 1 (01:37:44):
Torch What is the number one improvement or achievement that

(01:38:05):
should be a top priority for a w in year
number two? Not on a business side, on a because
I think what the from a TV presentation standpoint, because
I think that leads to good business is doing things right?

Speaker 3 (01:38:19):
Where? Where?

Speaker 1 (01:38:19):
Where does aw need to improve? What's number one? What
are some of the runners up? And this can be
in terms of the presentation of the show in the
booking philosophy, it can also be in terms of certain
stars or certain wrestlers they need to get over. Yeah,
your your take on on what their their new their
goals should be for year two?

Speaker 3 (01:38:38):
Sure? So first one is uh, right off the bat,
they have to be they have to be cleaner with
their presentation during the matches, and they have to take
a firmer hand with some of the workers in terms
of what they want to do. In particular, when you
look at this anniversary show, the tag title match, that
finishing sequence should not have been on television. The way
in which you have a tag tip being used and

(01:39:01):
the referee has to throw themselves to the ground and
not see it. That should that should have been a
number one. That shouldn't be something that's a gift that
shouldn't be something that's on video that should have been
worked out, and they've had some of those things. Typically
it's on Dark, but they have had those gaffs, like
at the end of twenty twenty or at twenty nineteen

(01:39:21):
going into twenty twenty when the Dark Order had that
ending sequence where they took over the ring and you
had some of the members, the more or lesser members,
missing clear daylight punches, and that's how you're going off
the air. Like those sorts of things you have to
clean up because that's going to be the first thing
your opponents and your detractors are going to say, you're
still small league. You get that out of the way

(01:39:43):
and they don't have a leg to stand on. The
two things as runners up are things that are really
personal for me because one, I've constantly had good conversations
in the press conferences in the scrums talking directly with
Tony Kahan and Cody Rhodes about their representation wrestling. They
need to not just say it's hard to find black
wrestlers in the singles scene. I just saw card at

(01:40:04):
the Collective that was filled with only black wrestlers. I've
done programs with wokuling across the United States and the
United Kingdom. In the world of black wrestlers in the
singles male scene that can wrestle, you have to do
better there. And that's where I get point to. If
you need to hire someone, go talk to Joey Janella
because his fingers on the post of the independent wrestling scene.

(01:40:25):
And then with the women, part of it was the pandemic,
and Tony Kahan mentioned that prior to the pay per
view they lost an entire promotions worth of women from
Tokyo Joshi Pro that they couldn't bring in. But while
you're here, you had this great opportunity. You brought in
Big Swool amongst others, and they've done a phenomenal job
for you. But you got to keep it going. It
can't just be the women get seven minutes out of

(01:40:47):
a two hour show and you're saying, we couldn't find
a better person to wrestle. When you then bring in
some women from NWA and from you know, Serenadeve eventually
became an aw talent and they tear the house down
and they get ten twelve minutes and they're awesome. You
have to find a way to make that work, because
if you're gonna be the person that trumpets on for representation,

(01:41:09):
I'm for women in wrestling. We're gonna do all these
things that the other companies do don't do. Right now,
WWE has the most functional, strongest women's promotion going in
the United States. Until you match them there, it's gonna
be hard. You have work to do, and I think
until then, you can't do things like say, we're going

(01:41:30):
to stick to women on YouTube and maybe we'll put
the Final on TV, because if you can figure out
a way to put on like I can't even think
of a silly thing that they had because they're usually
pretty tight with their television product, but you can figure
a way to find five minutes. And that again goes
back to talking to the talent, being a little bit
more strict with how much time they have and being
more executive less wrestler slash executive.

Speaker 1 (01:41:53):
How about in terms of the top stars and how
you grade, you know who gets the lowest and highest
grade among the wrestlers who were seen as the top
stars a year ago, Kenny Omega, Young Bucks, Hangman Page,
John Moxley, Chris Jericho. IM not sure who I'm leaving.

Speaker 2 (01:42:10):
Off the list.

Speaker 1 (01:42:12):
Ody, Oh, I thought in my head I said Cody,
I didn't say, I'm all So who gets the best grades?
And where is there the most room for growth? Because
I mean, I think there's some I will to say
obvious answers as I throw to you, because maybe you
won't say what I think is obvious. But that's why
I'm asking you who Where is there the most room
for growth? And what where in year two can people

(01:42:35):
do better than they did in your one? As far
as echoes, sure, obviously. The first name I'm gonna say
is Kenny and Mega. I was very disappointed with the
way he started. And it was really because a lot
of folks thought it was going to be New Japan
for Rest and Kenny instead of Kenny, which was a
mixture of DDT, New Japan and all of his other influences.
And so when those two juxtaposed themselves, Yeah, this dissonance

(01:43:00):
amongst the audience that said, well, can he's not you know,
why is can he doing this? Why isn't he in
the main event, et cetera, et cetera. And then Hangman
he had that match with Jericho to crown the first champion.
It kind of wasn't as strong, I guess as he
wanted it to be. I remember in the postmatch, like
the party, he was kind of like a little down
ope and stuff. And so when you look at him,

(01:43:22):
he's grown so much and he has so he has
so much further to go. But I think this year
has been phenomenal for him because he's had that low
and he's slowly found this character and the fans have
embraced it where he's his face and then he's heel
and he's drinking and what is his issues? And even
the cry on at the bottom is making fun of
the fact is like he hasn't stopped drinking in six

(01:43:44):
weeks and all these other things which have done a
great job, but in the ring, he's still solid. You
have a person like Jericho, who I've argued with Travis,
my host on the East Coast cast. He thought Jericho
shouldn't wrestle as much as she should. He should have
on television as sheampion, And I thought, because he's the
biggest star they had at the time for those first
couple of months, they needed a Jericho in those crowds.

Speaker 3 (01:44:07):
They needed him. When I went to Pittsburgh brawling with
Cody and breaking glass and falling all over Peterson Events Center.
You needed those moments because they didn't have moments. It
was a new company, and so for him, yes, but
also you have to be judicious because there was that
middle period where kind of the weight got on him
a little bit and he was kind of getting a
little sloppy and things kind of had to get cleaned up.

(01:44:29):
But now you notice by the time we get to
the year anniversary, MJF himself is pointing out the six
S pack. Jericho's taking care of himself better. He's doing
less tours with Fozzi, hopefully during the pandemic, and so
that'll allow him to put himself in a position to
be the best version of himself he can be. Moxley,
I'd given a He's done a great job of giving
his mission statement who he is. He's the He's that

(01:44:50):
champion that's gonna do whatever it takes. I'm gonna fight you,
if it's in the street or in the ring. You're
getting a fight, I'm gonna come out on top. The
fan's gonna respect me, You're gonna respect me. Uh. The
one area I think they kind of fell short was
MJF is great in the ring. He's great talking, or
he's good in the ring, he's great talking. But I
want him to be careful with how they push him

(01:45:11):
too hard to fast because he's so young, there is
that opportunity to put him into that that Miz category.
And he's better than the miz. No offense to Mike Mosanna.
He's better than the miss, so you can't make him
the misz. Be very careful with that. I thought that
what they did at the anniversary show where he was
kind of like talking to himself was a very like
that was a that was beneath him as a character.

(01:45:32):
They need to figure a better way out to get
to that point of asking to join the Dark not
the Dark order. I'm sorry circle that freud that that's
one area they again turned around dark and then who else? Cody?
I like Cody. I thought Cody is probably one of
their biggest pure babyfaces. But I think the moment Cody

(01:45:53):
entered into the John Cena Roman Reigns pre Heel turned
territory was that darn tattoo after he got that tap two.
He's still got the fan adulation, but there's now this
undercurrent of fans that are kind of looking at I'm like,
all right, buddy, I think you're taking yourself a little
too serious right now. And so he's got to be
careful with that because the promos are still great. He

(01:46:15):
doesn't need to bleed every big match. I know he
wants to, I know his dad did, but he doesn't
need to do it. And then let's see, is there
anyone else I'm missing That kind of missed the mark
the Young Bucks. I think the youngs did a great
job of selling guys like Private Party, but then afterward
there was no follow up. So if you're gonna lose
to these guys, let's keep pushing them down the road.

(01:46:38):
But if you're gonna do that and say we're doing
this for this purpose, and then the purpose is really
bupkiss you need it to be in that main event
scene as the guys and your year out. You still
haven't been tag team champions. That's fine, But if you
keep saying you're the best tag team in the world
and you're not your own world champions, people are gonna
look at your phone.

Speaker 1 (01:46:57):
Thanks for downloading today's show. Take it to the next
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So go VIP here in twenty twenty two and enjoy
all the benefits, all the bonus content, and the ad
free listening experience. Pw torch dot com slash go VIP.

(01:47:40):
We'll wrap up talking about NXT. They've got Halloween have
it coming up. They had an unfortunate injury that debrailed
some booking plans. They've got Finn Balor now with jaw surgery,
some graphic photos on NXT last night. He's touch and go.
In terms of the status of the NXT Championship, you
know we talked about AW having one year anniversary. NXT

(01:48:00):
sort of had an unofficial one year anniversary too. In
recent weeks of being a two hour live national TV show.
They are a feeder company to Ron SmackDown or a
feeder brand to a degree, they're also a standalone brand.
What is NXT's identity as they move into year two
on USA Network and what do you think are the

(01:48:22):
strengths and weaknesses right now of the roster and the
booking compared to AW their direct Wednesday night competition.

Speaker 3 (01:48:31):
I think the biggest thing for me with NXT is
they have become a bit of a mutant from what
they were and what they are now. When they were
on the WWE Network, they were kind of in their
own bubble no pun intended as this wrestling for wrestling sake,
kind of like what AW espoused itself to be. And

(01:48:51):
then when they went to USA, a lot of the elements,
especially moving from an hour to two hour that made
it great, got lost little bit because now you're competing,
you're not just doing this for the sake of doing it.
And once that became the raizom deetra, it put them
in this position where you're not just doing stuff. And

(01:49:14):
the biggest culmination of that was the Keith Lee situation
with Carrion Cross, because you went from this guy went
on this journey, He's us chap, I'm sorry, North American Champion,
and now, for reasons unknown, we decided we're gonna have
a double title match that just so happens to run
a caddy corner or parallel to our opposition having a
big show. Then we're gonna tell him, for reasons that

(01:49:38):
we can't figure out, he's gonna drop this title because
he wants to give someone else an opportunity. And then
within two weeks he's gonna also lose his NXT title
and we're gonna put him on the main roster. And
so those sorts of logic gaps were used to on
Raw and SmackDown. NXT had been the place where the
stories lines were tight. You had a A to B
two C and there wasn't any fluff, and so that

(01:49:59):
kind of got put in. But on the positive side,
they still maintain the strong wrestling, the strong promos. They've
given opportunities to folks like Ria Ripley, Eosherai moving in
a person like Damien Priest given Bruce's buddy, I completely
forgot his name. I hate when that happens. Trevor Lee,

(01:50:20):
I'm gonna have to just have to use this indie name.
I guess, thank you. I was like, how could I
forget Cameron Arena Boo Duke. You know you have these guys,
you give them these opportunities, and then the tag teams
and the development of people outside of the Undisputed era
because you had that period of time during lockdown where
you couldn't use Kyle O'Reilly, and that really helped the

(01:50:44):
whole division because then you had Ornie Lorcin and oh boy,
I'm forgetting everyone's name today it was Lorcan and I'll
get it. It'll come back to me. But these try
hard teams that typically wouldn't have gotten that opportunity to
get in the opportunity Rizango becoming a solid bedrock of

(01:51:06):
the Tag division for NXT and William Regal unfortunately being
userved by Triple H and Shawn Michaels as the voices
of reason for NXT. That's been the one thing I
have strongly disliked they've taken away that stern Regal sitting
in his office saying after these events, I'm gonna I've

(01:51:28):
made a decision and instead either have eschewed that for
cutting to Shawn Michael's Triple H road dog doing dumb
things in the back and say, oh yeah, we're gonna
have it in your house, or when Regal is involved,
it's those guys making the decision and using him as
the mouthpiece, which in many ways is to me insulting
because he's done so much of the character work to
get to this point, have the trust of the audience,

(01:51:50):
and you're now stealing it and that just doesn't feel right.
You have them come out and announce I'm gonna have
a tag match player because you have all these women fighting.
I think that was two weeks ago. That's not Regal.
Rego would never do that. He wouldn't change a main
event randomly. He would have a main event and say
do these actions. I'm now moving that main event to
next week and we're going to do this instead. And

(01:52:12):
so those sorts of raw or SmackDown gaps are the
biggest thing I've seen that it's changed. And then on
the positives, as I mentioned before, those opportunities for these
new arrestlers with call ups and with just getting seen
in a new light has opened up doors for them
and given a competition. Now my hope is going into
year two and beyond on the USA network, pride is

(01:52:33):
thrown out of the window and they move to another night,
because I think for the enjoyment of the product, for
the success of the product, because I'm sure USA Network's
going to come back at some point and say, why
am I paying this much for this? If TBS is
paying far less than I am and they're getting better
ratings for both either compared to NXT or RAW. So

(01:52:55):
that's going to be my question in terms of like
that long term conversation they need to have internally.

Speaker 1 (01:53:02):
Yeah, yeah, a good overview of of of NXT and
some of the places they need to grow and some
You're right. I mean they went from sort of doing
it for the art of it to doing it for
the Oh my god, someone else's on the other channel.
And actually I think there's times they should have had
to come across as having a greater sense of urgency
to compete with AW in an individual way. But I

(01:53:23):
do think the gravitational pull for them moved away from
just do things the right way and good things will
happen to oh, we need you know, we need to
check the comedy box. We need to check this box
in that box because AW is on the opposite channel.
I have a quite prediction for you by next October.

(01:53:44):
Are these two shows still on Wednesday night had to
head for two hours. No and who moves and where
do they go?

Speaker 3 (01:53:51):
I think I think aw's kind of stuck between all
of the NBA and NFL requirements that kind of keep
them from moving to Tuesday or Thursday. I think NXT
will move, but I think they'll move and go in
direct competition with whatever the new show is AW Designs.

Speaker 6 (01:54:09):
I'm Chris Maitland, I'm Justin McClelland we host Wrestling Coast
to Coast, a podcast on independent wrestling.

Speaker 8 (01:54:15):
Every week, Chris and I review a different show or
talk about important topics from around the indie wrestling world.

Speaker 6 (01:54:21):
Learn about the hot underground stars and the future main eventors.
For anyone else, you can reach us at Torchcoast to
Coast at gmail dot com and me on Blue Sky
at Mind of Maitland.

Speaker 3 (01:54:30):
You can reach me at Blue Sky at Justin McClelland.

Speaker 6 (01:54:33):
Find the show on your PW Torch dailycast podcast feed,
search PW Torch on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you
listen to podcasts.

Speaker 3 (01:54:41):
Also stream the latest shows on pwtorch dot com.

Speaker 1 (01:54:51):
All right, we'll close with one more email here zachin
Texas wants to push back against some of the criticism
from last night show. Jake Barnett and I had a
discussion on the Weaight Keller post show after Dynamite, and
I thought last night's STANDI versary show was kind of sloppy, underproduced,
disappointing in the ring in some cases, and was sort

(01:55:13):
of it encompassed the strengths and weaknesses of AW appropriately
over their first year in two weeks, I guess on
on on TNT so, he says, I feel compelled to
write in after listening to Wade and Jake eviscerate last
night's AW Dynamite anniversary show. I don't think I don't
think it was nearly as bad as a review made

(01:55:33):
it seem. The main thing that stuck out to me
was the way that Wade seemed to be holding AW
to a different standard than WWE. I know we've all
grown accustomed to not expecting much from w B, but
it seems like there's an expectation of perfection from AW.
One thing Wade repeatedly, repeated frequently was elbow grease, which
is a catch all term I take to mean more promos,
more vignettes and an explanation for everything. What I don't

(01:55:54):
know is where they're supposed to, where they're supposed to
squeeze all that in w's booking tends to make two
hours feel like five. But two hours, since it is
in a very long time, and there's already been some
concern that AW packs too much in as it is,
I don't think laying out a two hour show is
as easy as any of us think. Oh, first of all,
let me clarify, Zach. Elbow grease is the density of
effort per minute. I'm saying that AW needs to have

(01:56:18):
a show that doesn't look like they just wrote down
on a sheet of paper. And by the way, I've
advocated for this for a while, so I'm hypocritical in
this sense. But it's like on a three and a
half by five note card, Tony Kahn writes down, you know,
five matches and three segments and then just says, go
do it, and then there's slots and people just go
to the ring, they point a camera at the ring,
and they do it. And to me, elbow grease means

(01:56:39):
give me some context to the women's match on Dynamite.
Don't as Cody Rhoades himself said, you shouldn't need shoulder
content to make Dynamite make sense booking wise, and also
have the matches reach their potential in terms of getting
everybody who's watching invested in it who maybe isn't following
everybody on podcasts and social media, and the shoulder content

(01:57:00):
on YouTube. And so the elbow grease is put some
damn effort and time into a twenty or forty second
vignette that comes in and out of a commercial break
that sets the tone for a freaking women's title match
that doesn't get mentioned until the restlers are coming to
the ring or they're going to the break right before
the match. And so that's what I mean is the

(01:57:22):
show feels low budget, sometimes not in terms of Daily's place,
not in terms of the talent, but in terms of
the effort that goes into giving it some shine and
elevating the look and presentation. They got a great opening theme,
there's some great video packages they've done, they just don't
do them often enough. And then sometimes when they do
them they do, you know, you get the sort of

(01:57:45):
fun and frivolous spa day where there's obviously time and
editing put into that, yet they're not keeping their eye
on the ball when it comes to making us care
about what this match means to Orange Cassidy. Now you
can say, well, you know, he's already over and it's
well established. That might not be the best example, but
I'd still say give me something before the match from

(01:58:05):
Cody and Cassidy besides ring introductions, the bell ringing, and
let the announcers do the heavy lifting. That's what I
was pushing. WWE does a good job with this. NXT
does a really good job with this. The vignettes that
they do. They'll catching up with wrestlers as they approach
the building and the rovering reporter asks them some questions
or just a straight up in front of a backdrop

(01:58:26):
interview before we get to the match later. NXT, by contrast,
does this, well, this isn't about perfection, and certainly if
AW gets criticized for anything, it's not that they're being
held to a higher standard than WWE. I think they're
just held to a general standard. And I would say
the default position for a lot of that a lot

(01:58:47):
of people would claim is AW gets breaks because they're
not WWE, and people look past or make excuses for
them more than is probably helpful to AW getting better
because of some pressure within and with out to improve
some areas where they're sloppy. So that's my response to
that email. Rich respond to Zach respond to me your thoughts.

Speaker 3 (01:59:06):
Okay, So I think when it comes to the anniversary show,
I do what you're saying about the elbow grease, and
I mentioned an example of that with the opening tag
title match. Yep, that is not something that should be
on a professional show, especially a year show, a year
anniversary show of the Number two Rescent promotion in North America.
The finish talking about yeah, the finishing sequence, Yeah, that

(01:59:26):
would be if that was Ring of Honor. I'd pointed
out if that's WWE. I'm pointed out that was New Japan.
There have been New Japan finishes, particularly the last few
months with Evil As as a champion, that have been
that not as bad, but have been bad, and they've
been pointed out. And so I don't think that's not
a double negative. That is not fair game. I'm sorry,
that is fair game. Ugh, that's fair game to point out.

(01:59:49):
And I think there had been some scenes if you're
thinking about like a puppet or a sweater there's some
scenes that they need to trim and do a little
bit more tail of work to make sure that you
appreciate the whole out fit instead of pointing out those mistakes.
And so that's fair. I think that's fair game. When
you look at the scarcity of detractors for AW, I

(02:00:10):
think it's to your point people have given them a
bit of a curve. I you know myself, I said, hey,
let's see them after six months, see what they're doing.
Six months came, hey, here are the issues they got
to work on. Year out. Here are the issues they
got to work on. I think that's fair. And there's
also I think a fair argument to be made that,
as I mentioned earlier, there's been twenty five years, twenty

(02:00:31):
twenty five years of WW being the hedgemon, the sole
organization in North America that gets all the TV and
all the oxygen, and when you see their mistakes, you
accept them as what is wrestling, and so changing some
of that has been a bit of a struggle too,
because people assumed with a lot of those early AW storylines,
they're not going to follow up on it, it's not

(02:00:51):
going anywhere. Because they may have seen that with WW
and it wasn't the case. Most storylines were followed through.
But I think it's going to be a journey for them.
But they have to clean some things up. They have
to look at it in the mirror. Early they got
really sensitive. Cody would constantly and that's why I mentioned
that Cody would constantly mention, you know, they may be
haters and you got to tune them out. Brandy with

(02:01:12):
the incident with Heels, you know, jumping off Twitter and
then jumping back on Twitter, the Young Bucks removing themselves
from Twitter completely outside of just media purposes. You can't
have thin skin running a professional wrestling company. Everyone's going
to have an opinion. Everyone's going to think something's great
or stinks, and you can't just listen to the positive feedback.

(02:01:35):
I think that's what they learned this year, and I
hope they continue learning from them.

Speaker 1 (02:01:39):
All Right, Rich, Well, I could keep going for another
hour and a half, but we'll wrap up there. Unless
there's is there some topic we didn't get to that
you really want to do address on the show today, I.

Speaker 3 (02:01:49):
Don't think so. I think the I would say completely
tongue out of cheek. If you haven't watched NXT and
you and you are missing out on the Gargano family
being is like they are every like if they had
a kid, they would be the dance mom and dad
that would be dressed like their kid, and they would

(02:02:10):
match before the show and be really mad if they
got second place, because they're like, we got second place,
and it's like, well I got second place, Mom, It's like, no,
we did. We don't get second place in this house.
Or if their dog, if their dog was in one
of those dog competitions. If you ever see the movie
Best in Show, they are Eugene Levy's and his wife's
character other than the fact that Johnny Gargano doesn't have

(02:02:32):
two literal left feet. So I love it And if
you get a chance, just even if you watch a
videttes on Twitter or YouTube, they're worth it.

Speaker 1 (02:02:40):
Awesome, Rich, thanks so much. Tell people a little more
about your podcast that you're involved in each week.

Speaker 3 (02:02:47):
Sure, so the East Coast cast Every Wednesday, I do
the VPP portion with Travis Bryant. We typically talk it's
not minivan, not living room friendly, about politics, wrestling, life,
comic books, books, whatever I'm reading or listening to, or
whatever Travis is listening to because he does not read books.
He only listens to them, and so that's always a journey.

(02:03:07):
It usually runs about ninety minutes two hours. Travis and
I have been doing this now. Travis has been doing
it and I don't know if he was on the
kickoff the anniversary, but Travis has been at the Torch
for the better part of ten years, and so it
is an honor to work with him. It's a headache,
but it's also an honor at times to work with
him and kind of the niche he's carved, you know,

(02:03:28):
in Wade's empire here, and so it's been It's really
fun and I encourage you. Find us on Twitter at
East Coast Cast, find us on Facebook, PW Torch East
Coast Cast. You can always email us each scost Audio
at gmail dot com. And then for myself, I'm on
the PW Torch Daily Cast lineup book shows, different show
every day, different hosts, different flavors. Saturday is my area,

(02:03:49):
it's the deep die. I love talking about wrestling, I
love diving into things, and I love making connections that
are sometime outside of the realm of normalcy. So for instance,
last week I did a movie review. The movie Boggy three,
which is an Indian action drama musical that we then
tied into with my co host several wrestlers in wrestling

(02:04:11):
now and in history, and how some of their character
beats are really good movie characters and how you can
talk it through. And then we'll also talk about the
seriousness of escapism, wrestling being escapism, and what do you
do when you're in a situation like now during a pandemic,
when you can't necessarily escape because there are realities coming in.
There's reason, there's no crowd, there's a reason that people
aren't there to wrestle, there's a reason that you're not

(02:04:33):
going to Indiana to go to this show or that show,
and so how do you work through that? And so
talking both with friends, strangers, fellow towards staff and kind
of getting their opinions on these things. It's been a
really cool side project for me these last few months,
and of course we just talk about wrestling itself. I'll
be talking g One this weekend with my buddy Chris

(02:04:54):
Maitland some of the fallout, and then always you'll find
me on my last to Audio Radikin ride with Sean Radikin.
I typically do a lot of the international and indie
wrestling with Shawn as his co host, and that's been
fun the last couple of years because Sean is one
of the foremost authorities on independent wrestling and he gets
a chance to learn from me. I get a chance

(02:05:15):
to learn from him, and hopefully you get to learn
from our conversation.

Speaker 2 (02:05:18):
Rich Thank you so much. Always a pleasure when we
do a show together.

Speaker 3 (02:05:22):
Thank you again, Always a pleasure, Wade, thank you for
having me.

Speaker 1 (02:05:25):
Absolutely invite you to email the show with feedback or

(02:05:46):
questions or comments. That email address is Wade Keller Podcast
at petewtorch dot com. That's Wadekeller Podcast at pw torch
dot com. Also welcome your feedback on Twitter. You can
follow us on Twitter at pw torch and follow me
at the Wadekeller That's at PW Torch and at the
Wade Keller.

Speaker 9 (02:06:07):
Searching for more great pro wrestling talk, then join me
Jason Powell host them the three weekly Pro Wrestling Boom podcast.
Each week you'll hear the latest news and analysis from
me and my team at Pro Wrestling dot need, along
with other pro wrestling media members, plus the Pro Wrestling
Boom podcast features long form interviews with notable names in
the pro wrestling industry. Subscribe and iTunes, Stitcher, Downcast, and

(02:06:28):
all your favorite secondary apps, or visit us directly at
pwboom dot com. Once again, that's PW boom dot com.

Speaker 1 (02:06:38):
Thanks for listening to our podcast. Did you know we
also have a website pw torch dot com Daily news updates, editorials,
and my live TV coverage covering Raw, Dynamite and SmackDown
and my live pay per view coverage for WWE and AEW.
Create a tab or bookmark make it a daily stop.
Visit us throughout the day every day to keep up
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(02:07:02):
Need an extra dose of positivity in your wrestling podcasts,
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(02:07:22):
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Speaker 4 (02:07:38):
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(02:08:00):
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Speaker 2 (02:08:03):
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Speaker 1 (02:08:05):
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Speaker 2 (02:08:38):
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Speaker 7 (02:08:42):
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Speaker 8 (02:08:58):
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