5 YRS AGO FLAGSHIP: Keller & Powell talk Jericho-MJF song and dance, new Omega presentation, Reigns-Uso, Retribution, HIAC hype, more

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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(01:51):
the Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast five years ago. This
week on the flagship Case and Poll for Wrestling dot
Net joined me and we talked about the top happenings
in pro wrestling over the previous week, including top items
for NXTAW, Dynamite, Raw, SmackDown, Hell and US Sell, and
Impacts Bound for Glory. Some specific topics included Pat McAfee

(02:14):
joining Onny Lorkin and Danny Birch, the new presentation a
keny Omegaan and how to interpret it, The odd framing
of the Young Bucks the latest chapter with Roman Ranks
and Jay us So five years later, here we still
are also trying to figure out the point of retribution,
the stellar John Moxietti Kingston Hype, Eric Young against Rich
Swan as the headline matchup Bound for Glory, and of
course Chris Jericho and mgff's Steak Dinner song in Dance

(02:38):
Routine thumbs upper, thumbs down. This originally live streamed on
October twenty second, twenty twenty and it is today's Wade
Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast five years ago flashback for Wednesday,
October twenty second, twenty twenty five. All Right, Jason, which
unmasking last night did you like the best? It's so

(02:59):
weird that Tully Blanchard and Pat McAfee both unmasked at
almost the exact same time. If we were to do
the restaurant quality picture and picture, or as I call it,
split screen or a Stium Ross calls it restaurant quality
picture and picture, you would have seen like the unmasking
is like almost simultaneously, and I doubt they plan that out.
It's so weird.

Speaker 2 (03:18):
Yeah, so the better of the two was clearly McAfee
and it's only because like, okay, it's Tolly who's always
with FTR. Why did he wait until the end of
this to unmask, which just took away from what should
have been the vocal point, which was the beatdown that
FTR was dishing out instead, if you didn't know, it

(03:40):
was Blanchard And I did wonder just because I watched
a seventy year old man leap from the second rogue,
Like is that I think it is? But no way, yeah,
I mean seriously, it just was distracting. That should have
been as soon as he hit one of the bucks
or whoever it was with the chair. That's when you
do the unmasking, you don't leave it like it's some
grand reveal of the guy who's always in their corner.

Speaker 1 (04:00):
There are things that AW does, and the first warning
sign for me was the lights out and on Gimmick.
There are things that they do sometimes it's just because
it feels like Tony Kahn has always wanted to do it,
you know, like he's watched Oh, the unmasking, let's do it.
And you know there's a lot that AW does well,
But there are things that they do that seem like
they do it just because they want to do it

(04:20):
because it's what's cool when they were fourteen, it's odd
on TV, and they're not thinking about what you just detailed,
you know, the fundamentals of the logic behind because to me,
like I don't think this is profound. You want when
you film a scene in anything, a movie, a play,
in a wrestling angle, you want all the characters individually

(04:41):
in your mind if you're kind of directing it and
conceiving of it and try to get it text acute.
You want to imagine yourself as every single person in
that scene, and are they all acting naturally as they
would if it were real? And everybody has a logic
to their actions. You know, nobody scratches our arm if
they're armed, is an inch, you know, like you everybody
should be doing some one thing that makes sense. Nobody

(05:02):
opens a window if it's thirty degrees below zero. Like
people are logical, and so you want to make sure
everybody's acting logically or it's just distracting. And what you
just described is like why would he wait? And then
you have the other aspect, which is, while doing that,
maximize drama and don't distract from what the focal point is.
And it's a good point that that distracted from the
focal point because it took away from the point of

(05:24):
the angle, which is FDR beating down the you know,
dickish young Bucks who nobody likes or I'm like, yeah,
kick their ass FTR. I mean I do. Do you
get what they're doing with your own Bucks?

Speaker 2 (05:34):
Jason, No, not a clue? Yeah yeah, I mean the
best thing come up and they're trying to give them
an edge. But this isn't edgy. It's just like you said, dickish.

Speaker 1 (05:45):
Yeah. I just I do fear sometimes that the gushing
over the top ego stroking in certain circles that certain
people in AW get is going to be a hindrance.
I mean, it's it is remarkable how in this happens,
you know, with all wrestling companies and wrestlers and everything.

(06:08):
I mean, it's not unique to AW, although it's pronounced,
how much they get just knee jerk, run to the
defensive AW for anything, free pass, you know, like just
you know, the Bucks the greatest take team of Are
they the greatest take team of all time? It's like,
are we are we really asked? Is it time to
ask that question yet? Like, let's let's give them a

(06:28):
few more years of being on national TV every week
instead of just having Superkick parties once every couple of
months at at live events in front of you know,
hundreds of people. You know, let's get to let's let's
get a bigger body of work. Marketing wise. That's fine,
but see it for what it is. It's marketing. It's
not reality yet. I mean, Kenny was fantastic having Neuschepan
style matches, but he's had a way below expectations first

(06:50):
year as a weekly national television performer in a character
driven setting.

Speaker 2 (06:57):
But you don't get it with this was all by design.

Speaker 1 (07:00):
Well that's the thing. A year ago you would hear that, oh,
it's a long term plan, it's a long term plan. Well,
you know what, they had one point seven million viewers
for seven days after seven days of viewing for week
number one, and you know now they're drawing a million.
They've lost a huge chunk of their eye. I mean,
I know it's not a perfectly fair, idea right number
to throw out there because the first week popped rating,

(07:20):
But they haven't grown in a year and they had
a pandemic, So I would put caveats in there. But
but yeah, it's like, I agree, I'm just the big
I'm rolling my eye when I hear people go it's
all part of a master plan. You might have a
master plan, it doesn't mean it's a good master plan,
or it's well executed, or that it's prudent.

Speaker 2 (07:36):
This master plan supposedly was that Kenny would spend the
first year elevating others. Wade, who were those others?

Speaker 1 (07:43):
No One?

Speaker 2 (07:44):
Yeah, I mean you could make an argument that by
doing what he did with Hangman Page, it moved him
up a little bit.

Speaker 1 (07:48):
I'll give them that Page was more over at the
beginning of that angle than at the end.

Speaker 2 (07:55):
It took Page becoming an alcoholic to kind of trigger things,
he said. That's when the popularity burse seemed to occur.
But hey, if you want to say, well, we wanted
to tell this story with Omega in page, that's fine. Yeah,
but don't sit here and try to spin this that
he spent his year getting others over, because he didn't.
It just didn't happen. And the only thing people will

(08:15):
point to that I've seen is, oh, that match he
had with Alan Angels that was unnecessarily long and something
you only do with a heel, which Kenny wasn't at
the time. He was still a baby faced and he's
out there having this really competitive match with a guy
that they decided to give a number two and put
a mask on. So what good did that do?

Speaker 1 (08:36):
Yeah? What do you What do you think of Kenny's
new entrance and what they did with him winning quick
last night again some kiss?

Speaker 2 (08:44):
Yeah, so I'm intrigued. Now it does feel like, Okay,
whatever the first year was, if it was by design,
so be it. It wasn't well done. If we're going
to start kicking into gear now great. My only concern
is all this cleaner stuff. How much of your audience
is familiar with the cleaner? Are you going to explain
this to them or are you going to have to just,

(09:04):
you know, talk to somebody who watched everything in New
Japan to figure it out. If you want somebody watching,
Hopefully they're aware of that and it's not going to
be an issue. But I did leg it the over
the top introduction with the PWI five hundred number one
and just all of that stuff was pretty comical, and
then you know, Kenny was quirky Kenny after But I

(09:25):
thought Sonny Kiss did a really nice job of telling
the story with his facial expressions that you know will
get away from me. Basically was when Omega was trying
to help him.

Speaker 1 (09:33):
Up well after what happened with Michael Knakazawa. I mean,
Kenny's a creep.

Speaker 2 (09:38):
Yeah, so what happened there, It probably took place on Dark,
which I watch every time they added another match to
that lineup, and just like, really sixteen matches for aw
Dark as come.

Speaker 1 (09:48):
On, all right, if you're in a minivan, you might
want to fast forward a minute with your kids on
being the elite Kenny.

Speaker 2 (09:56):
Had.

Speaker 1 (09:56):
Michael Nakazawa dropped to his knees, Kenny dropped his pants
his bikini breast towards Michael nakaza and Kazaa opened his
mouth and closed his eyes, and then Kenny shifted slightly
and said, look at my leg hair or some bruise
on my leg or something I can't remember what, or
making no or his handline. He had some excuse and

(10:17):
then uh, and then Michael's because I opened his eyes,
I'm like, oh, oh, okay, and then uh. And so
the joke was, you know, Michael, because I was ready
to give oral sex to Kenny reluctantly, and Kenny was like, no, no,
not that, and it was supposed to be this really
funny thing. And then everyone kind of exhales and goes, okay,
well that was weird. And then as they cut away,
as they're about to cut away from the scene, Kenny says, now,

(10:40):
suck me off.

Speaker 2 (10:41):
That didn't happen.

Speaker 1 (10:42):
It did happen.

Speaker 2 (10:43):
I have to start paying attention to being the league.

Speaker 1 (10:46):
No really, yes, wow, yep, okay.

Speaker 2 (10:52):
So.

Speaker 1 (10:54):
Yeah, I mean I just, you know, I get giving
wrestlers creative freedom, but I get nervous about Kenny and
being left to his own devices, about how much of
a quirky flake he's going to come across as to
the audience. I mean, I'm fine with quirky quirkiness, but

(11:14):
if you're a flake, you're a lower card comedy act.
And he can be off putting in how how much
he embraces how different he is, and there just comes
a point. I mean, I'm trying to think of examples
of other wrestlers where you're just like, you know, dude,

(11:34):
that's not you know, do what you want? You know
to do it? Don't you want with your friends? But
it's time to like try to become a star and
try to attract us the second million and not just
be sort of like unfiltered, self indulgent. I can do
whatever the heck I want because I'm an EVP with
a seven figure contract and I've been declared the greatest
wrestler ever because of star ratings, and you know, at

(11:56):
some point it's like, okay, let's reboot and let's figure
out how to introduce ourselves to another million people who
want to see you every week, and they're off doing
that stuff. I just you know, yeah, it's I mean,
it's it's worth watching because I think it was a
significant part of the uh of the story of a
e W, giving you know, just complete unfiltered, creative freedom

(12:17):
to their wrestlers on that you know, silly internet show.

Speaker 2 (12:22):
Yeah I do. We know why that show still exists.
I guess I kind of moved on from it now
that it's there's moments in there, but it's just like, Okay,
if it doesn't matter in the big picture as far
as Dynamite is concerned, if that shoulder content doesn't really matter,
do I need to keep up on it? Well, Unfortunately,
based on what you told me apparently I do.

Speaker 1 (12:43):
Yeah, yeah, well, at least read the reviews on on
pw torch dot com and then decide, you know what
you're gonna what what you want to watch? You know
from oh totally yes, very very well done. Well, you know,
I want to I want to give my uh, I
want to. I want to give a shout out to
the the hard, hardworking crew who do their who do
their coverage in Zach Graham does A does A does

(13:05):
a very nice job. The the scene with with Kenny
and Kaa led to being the elite getting flagged by
by YouTube as as adult content. Oh man, yeah, yeah,
or at least we think it was flagged and we
that's I assume that's the reason, and yeah it was.
Omega started talking about how white his legs were and

(13:27):
he wanted to put Tanner on his legs, and uh yeah,
oh I forgot, I forgot. I'm looking at I'm looking
at and I watched this, but I'm looking at that
Grands report. It's it's spurring memories. When my Michael not
Becazaoua kneeled and opened his mouth and closed his eyes.
Kenny shoved a tubular to a tube into his mouth,

(13:50):
felic shaped tube into his mouth. That was the tanning lotion,
the the that he wanted, not Kazaa to to spread
on his legs.

Speaker 2 (13:58):
So yeah, is this like a frat hout? What is happening?

Speaker 1 (14:03):
I know, I know, like you know, I don't need
to know your the keywards you went or late at
night when you're lonely, and you know, sometimes it's on
full display on BT what people's kinks are or what
they think is just funny that you know, funny in
a way that's not all right, I'm feeling dirty. Let's

(14:25):
let's introduce the show, and I want to talk more
about more about Dynamite, but I want to talk NXT
two and obviously the hell and Cell coming up and
on and on and on real quick.

Speaker 2 (14:38):
Will Jeffrey Tuban be on being the elite next week?
To know?

Speaker 1 (14:41):
I don't know?

Speaker 2 (14:43):
Wow? I know.

Speaker 1 (14:47):
You can support us on Patreon and get these shows
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(15:09):
dot com slash PW torch vip and you can also
upgrade to other tiers and receive even more benefits through Patreon.
All right, this is the wayde Keller Progressing Podcast, the
Thursday flagship edition for October twenty second, twenty twenty. I'm

(15:30):
weid Keller, host of the program. I've been covering professional
wrestling since the late nineteen eighties, founder of the Progressing
torchweekly newsletter pw torch dot com and of course the
host of the apply named Weadkeller postals and podcasts and
a bunch of VIP podcasts every week. And I'm joined
by Jason Powell from Pro Wrestling dot Net, one of
the most tenured full time pro wrestling reporters out there

(15:51):
from Progressing dot Net. Did I just say that twice?
What you won't complain Progressing dot Net and the Pro
Wrestling Boom podcast. And he joins me every three weeks
here on the flame Ship, the longest running co host
here on the way Keller Porsing Podcast and and when
I used to be on the Pody Torch Daily Cast
or live cast. Jason, welcome back. That's a mouth bawl

(16:12):
our resume, you know, our resume. We're justin roberts when
when we need him to listen to our resumes.

Speaker 2 (16:17):
Yeah, that'd be perfect. I don't know if you mentioned
that I write for Pro Wrestling dot Net.

Speaker 1 (16:21):
Though, no, no, in fact, you you are the head
honcho over there.

Speaker 2 (16:24):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, just wanted to sneak down interest in
case you didn't mention it three times.

Speaker 1 (16:28):
Yeah, we'll check it out. Well, you know what you
know in honor of Kenny Omego's bullet points. Kenny is talented,
by the way, Like I I absolutely like the thing
about it is like if if there was some somebody
could just go all right, Keny, let's let's figure this out.
No bad idea. Okay, good idea, but not worth part
of my vision. Yes, it's a Tony con talk. Good idea.
You know, that'd be fun. But we're trying to be
bigger than this, you know, we're trying to like we

(16:49):
really want to grow. I think that's a little too niche.
My turn some people off. You got to admit, you know,
just like handle it well and go here. Here's here's
you know, of the twelve things that that that excite you,
let's focus on these four traits that I think we
can really amplify and market effectively. So anyway, but in
the spirit of Kenny of the Kenny Omega justin Roberts

(17:09):
Ring Entrance, Jason, get your plug in early today. Tell
people about how they can experience more Jason Powell in
written form and podcasts form.

Speaker 2 (17:18):
Absolutely. So it's a really busy weekend here. We've got
SmackDown as always on Friday, we've got Impact Wrestling Bound
for Glory. We have hell Anda Sell and we'll have
you covered every step of the way over at pro
wrestling dot net live reviews of each one of those
shows and audio reviews exclusive for our dot net members.
Pro wrestling dot Net do you want to go there
if you need a news fix, you want live coverage

(17:39):
of the television shows and pay per views, you want
my hit list or another staffer's hit list coming out
of those pay per views or the television shows as well,
We've got you covered. So again, it's pro wrestling dot
Net just in case we didn't mention it three times,
and then on the member side of things. It's the
ad free version of the Pro Wrestling dot Net website,
and it comes complete with a ton of audio content.

(18:01):
All those major television shows and pay per views reviewed
in audio form mike Q and a audio show on
Mondays taking questions from the members, both pro wrestling and non.
A lot of fun has had, especially in that non
wrestling section, and I get to a basche Germaine from Chicago,
which is always a good time. And then the new
weekly audio show right before I hopped on with Wade here,
Jake Barnett and I just finished up over ninety minutes

(18:24):
talking about all the news of the week, including we
always give our thoughts on the AW Dynamite and NXT
show since so we're recording the day after that is available.
All those shows available exclusively to dot net members and more.
If you're interested membership, visit PW Membership dot net again,
it's PW Membership dot net now. If you're looking for

(18:44):
a free audio fix, we've got you covered that way too.
Check out the Pro Wrestling Boom podcast. You should know
the deal right now. Just search for Pro Wrestling Boom
on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts and
subscribe and you will hear my free weekly show. This
week's guest as a guy who's pretty much done everything
there is to do in the wrestling industry in a
variety of places. Garyster joined me too and discuss his

(19:08):
new podcast and we talk take a look at his
promoting career. He is currently with Ring of Honor, but boy,
he was there for everything in the Crocket days. He's
pretty much worked for everybody other than WWE. It seems
really enjoyable conversation with Gary. I hope you'll check it
out again. It's the Pro Wrestling Boom podcast.

Speaker 1 (19:26):
Awesome cool. I was gonna say some U Gary, but
I can't remember by the way I was.

Speaker 2 (19:34):
He's at Minnesota DABT which I didn't even realize.

Speaker 1 (19:36):
Oh really, yeah, I guess I knew that way in Minneapolis. Yeah, yep.
Michael Nakazawa in that skit with Kenny to go back
to that, Jason, because I know you want to he
he was mouthing words, but Colt Cabana's voice is coming
out of his mouth just to make it, just to
make it weirder. So it's like a bad dubbed over thing.
So I assume. I don't know, but I assume that

(19:57):
there's some wrap. This is some up. Why shouldn't But
there's a possibility that it's playing off of some video
game or some movie or something like that. And this
is like a satirical embellishment and reenactment of some funny
scene in some weird zany comedy once that that keny
Omega saw that cool people would get.

Speaker 2 (20:16):
I'm being punked right like this didn't happen. You're gonna
tell me at the end of the show. I made
all of this up.

Speaker 1 (20:21):
It's the October twelfth being the Elite. It is a
segment number two.

Speaker 2 (20:26):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (20:27):
Yeah, need an extra dose of positivity in your wrestling podcasts?
Will come join me Alan fourrel Over in the Progress
Paradise at Peter botorch vip as we mask on the
bright side of wrestling and focus on some of the
great matches and shows from around the world, be it US, Japan,

(20:48):
Europe or Mexico. There's always a place for wrestlings Past
and the Paradise two and we've done fun historical shows
such as the We Love Liger series celebrating the glorious
career of Juician Thunder like and our I was there
when shows where our guests will join me to talk
about a classic bout that they were in attendance for.
We love variety and you can expect lots of it

(21:09):
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Speaker 1 (21:40):
Okay, the we'll go back to aw later. Let's let's
talk about the Pat McAfee reveal on NXT last night.
The advertised that Taking Time a match on Disputed Era,
going up against Brizombo, and they got beaten up. I
guess we have a pretty good idea of who did
it now and why Larkin and Danny Birch are the

(22:01):
NXT Take Team Champions. When they first won, I was like,
I mean, have they really built them up as credible
enough to have this not feel like it's kind of
pulling the titles down? And then when McAfee revealed himself
I said, okay. You know, to me, if you want
to reframe and change how people perceive a wrestler or
a team, you have to have some some something that

(22:23):
agitates and gives you a reason to believe that a disruptor,
you know, something that makes you think, Okay, now I'll
look at them through a different lens because their situation
is different, and I think Pat McAfee is enough, and
Lorcan and Birch are really talented. I doubt they're gonna
be called out to the main roster. So this gives
NXT a chance to, you know, invest in a team
that won't get called up. What was your take on that?

(22:44):
Where did you kind of go through the same emotions
I did?

Speaker 2 (22:47):
Yeah, So I don't know that you can pull them
down from Brizong though it's maybe a little I'm just
not big on that team, and I actually like both guys.
I'm just not big on the quirkiness that they bring.
I wish they just kind of I've always wish they'd just, hey,
let's go try to do our best Midnight Express impersonation
and be a heel team and not do all the
dancing and all the silliness. But they don't. So I'm

(23:10):
fine with them winning. What I'm not fine with and
this is more selfish than anything. When I see Birch
and Lurk, and I see two guys who can always
be counted on to go out there and look good,
putting somebody else over and more importantly doing their job
and making somebody else look good. They've done it time
and time again. They're kind of that hard edged team

(23:31):
that you can either you can put them out there
to lose in two minutes and it's fine, but they
can also have those really competitive matches and they're credible
and believable. And I always thought, boy, if they do
this right, there's going to come a time where you
can put the tag titles on these guys and it's
really going to mean something. But as babyfaces, you know,

(23:51):
because of their long streak of probably losing more than
they win but also looking really good in the process,
I look forward to that and we're not going to
get it. And it's okay, Hey, I'm happy for them.
I mean, they really worked hard. Only Lorcan is incredible,
by the way, but the way they've done this, I
guess my concern is that it's not so much about

(24:13):
elevating them as much as it is, then looking at
the calendar, going, hey, we have war games in a month,
what are we gonna do?

Speaker 1 (24:20):
What is the wargames match? How does it add up? Then?

Speaker 2 (24:23):
So I think you're gonna get undisputed era against It
would have been probably McAfee, Lorcan, Birch, and I'm guessing
it would have been Ridge Holland. But at the same time,
I don't know that they didn't call an audible like
maybe this wasn't supposed to happen with Birch and Lorcan.
It's not like we saw a lot of storytelling here,

(24:43):
So maybe Holland's injury kind of caused them to reshuffle
some things. I'm just not sure.

Speaker 1 (24:48):
Yeah, they've dealt with a lot of a lot of
setbacks NXT has and so you know, I mean, you know,
just any kind of evaluation of their booking and all
that that came out of nowhere, it's like, yeah, you know,
you got to lighten up, because they're trying to make
the best of a situation where they've had, you know,
top guys in major storylines go down with injury.

Speaker 2 (25:07):
And they've also devalued some people that they shouldn't have
Like who Tomaso Champa, Rhea Ripley, those are the first two.

Speaker 1 (25:13):
That come to oh kind of long term yeah, yeah, yeah.
Would you think a Champa's intensity at the top of
the show, just going after Dream and the match was
like sixteen minutes and Champa was I mean for fourteen
of those minutes it's sprinting.

Speaker 2 (25:27):
I love Tamaso Champa, like when we went to that
house show back in February. Yeah, like back when we,
you know, actually were able to do things and leave
our houses and go to public places and gather. What
a time that was. It was him. It really was
the two that I mentioned that felt to me like
the stars of that brand and Undisputed Air. They were
playing the heels in the main event with the against

(25:49):
champions and others, But it was champin Ripley that felt like,
these are the stars of NXT. Honorable mentioned to Undisputed
Era and even Bianca bell Air to me, but those
were the two and you fast forward to where we
are now. I have no idea why they felt the
need to have Ripley lose to Flare at WrestleMania and
if you know, and Paulo X kind of defended it, saying,

(26:11):
you know, you'll get it eventually. Essentially, I'm stating I
don't get it. She's been defined down and they're struggling
to get her back to that point she was at.
And then Champa loses to carry on cross, which is fine,
and then disappears for a while, which is fine, and
then they bring him back heel with no real direction. Yeah,
their course correcting with him feuding with velveteen Dream. I

(26:33):
get the sense that he's going to be a baby face,
and I think that's the right approach because as great
of a heel as he was during that feud with
Johnny Gargano, he really showed that he could be a
guy who can carry the load. Is like the face
of an XT. With his neck injury and everything else,
maybe they don't want him to ultimately be that guy,
but I think just looking at the landscape, I think

(26:55):
it makes a lot of sense to have him as
the babyface. And I wouldn't have turned him.

Speaker 1 (27:00):
I I agree with you on everything. I think Champas
is a potential just centerpiece, you know, stone cold esque,
you know, face of that brand as what we saw
last night, just the the just leaning forward, pushing forward,
badass who's all business. And you know, with Gargano an
effective heel. Now with cannisl array and and really going

(27:23):
all in with it, I mean, you can't really change
Gargano for a while. You know, I don't know that
Champa is a I don't. I mean I don't since
I mean, I think he said he doesn't want to
be called up, you know, like I think I think
he knows who'd be best used. I know, might be
mistaken on that. Have you do you remember hearing him say.

Speaker 2 (27:38):
That it was either him or Organo or both of them.
I know, yeah, it was both. I mean just sadly
you look at the size and you know, is there
a chance that Vince would do it? Yeah, but realistically,
just based on what we've seen, it would probably end in.

Speaker 1 (27:54):
Failure and maybe with the house Shields kind of going away.
You know, some of that changes because some sometime guys
just want to stay in NXT because it's it's easier.
You know, you're in a good living, but you don't
have to travel every weekend to house shows or you know,
lots of weekends to house shows and do the international
tours and frankly lifestyle. Why some people don't want to
do that, you know. I mean people love the A
W A back in the seventies and eighties because they

(28:16):
got to go and go. Like Nick Bok, we love
going to Hawaii for a long stretch of time. You know,
there were off periods and breaks. The schedule was really nice.
You're in good money, but you got to live a life.
And that's a whole other issue. But I wonder when,
when you know, you can start selling tickets and filling
buildings again, if W's even gonna bother going back to

(28:36):
house shows at any I mean, they had already cut
back greatly, and you know, wrestlers are not used to
having having traveling less, you know, and having more time
at home. And so yeah, I'm curious how that I'll go. So,
but I want to get off track here to Champa
is just a good fit for NXT because of the
size issue, the legacy, the backstory. The bookers know his character,

(28:57):
and so I would just make him a perennial, you know,
like I'll use an A W analogy to go way
back in the time machine. He can be their crusher,
you know, their top star who isn't necessarily champion, but
the soul, the soul of the brand, and you know,
a gatekeeper at times, a title challenger at times. He
can be champion again, but you know, a regular there.

(29:18):
And and I liked, I liked what they did, what
they did with him Austin theory. What do you think
they're doing? He quit last night after losing twice to
Bronson Reid in a row. They've been telling the story
for weeks. You know, he's immature, he's cocky, but boy
does he have potential. And so you know, having a
guy lose a lot, it's hard to not have that

(29:41):
to find you down. But it feels like this was
very purposeful and maybe they want to, you know, reflect
real life and teach him a lesson on air, and
they're trying to send him a message in that way,
but also incorporate help people perceive him into a storeline.
Is is this something? Is this something? We have an
idea of where they're going with it?

Speaker 2 (29:59):
I I don't. I mean, there's a few options that
kind of jump out to me because it does remind
me a little bit of Andrane and just the way
he was losing and then they ended up putting him
with Selena Vega, and that, you know, turned his character's
career around. He got his act together with her. And
I'm not saying it's going to going to bring down Zelena.

(30:21):
To do this, I'd be fine with it, because I
don't think they know what to do with around the
main roster anymore. But I do wonder could he end
up being with Malcolm Bivins, could he end up being
taken under the wing of Johnny Gargano, because we did
have that segment where Gargano kind of sang his praises
briefly and they're already doing something with the you know,

(30:41):
the Garganos and Indie heartwell too, So I do wonder
if there's some connection there, But I really don't know.

Speaker 1 (30:47):
Maybe Austin theories like cleaning the Carcano family toilet next,
and he's earning his keep to be to be to
be one of their underlings who then gets rebuilt.

Speaker 2 (30:56):
Man, it's Gargano clicking now. It took a while. It
was so seeing him as a heel, you know that
that run. It just I don't think there was anything
he could have done that was going to feel right.
But now that we're kind of past that time and man,
he's just he's he's on fire. I love that segment
last night, just a little thing just to establish how
neurotic he is and he has to be in control

(31:17):
and it's driving him nuts that he's not. He's been. Yeah,
those two have been really it's really starting to click
for both him and Candace.

Speaker 1 (31:25):
It's actually and this is a sign of a good
character change. It's hard to imagine he was ever anyone.

Speaker 2 (31:29):
Else I know.

Speaker 1 (31:30):
Yeah, yeah, and I feel like he was faking it
all along, like this is who he always was, and
now we've seen who he really is.

Speaker 2 (31:38):
It's a weird thing. When so when he was the
face of NXT and then we had that turn, part
of me thought like they should have, Like I Kirk
Cousins popped into my head, just going like because he
is such a how do you do to you guy?
And Cousins is and I thought it would have been
kind of fun to reveal that, Yeah, this guy that

(32:00):
we thought we knew is Johnny Argano. You start to
see behind the scenes, and you show those of those
house videos and you play up this idyllic lifestyle, but
you actually start to see the cracks and the foundation.
You realize this guy's not all there. He's very strange,
and that's kind of how I envisioner like in QUARTERBACKWOD.

Speaker 1 (32:19):
I like the analogy. Thanks for downloading today's show. Take
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(32:39):
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dot com slash go VIP. All right, well, let's let's

(33:07):
actually talk two quick more items about NXT. Then we'll
turn the page to other topics.

Speaker 2 (33:10):
Here.

Speaker 1 (33:11):
Uh, the Killian Dane Drake Maverick saga is you know,
part of NXT injecting some comedy into a Heck, the
Garganos are comedic in their own way too, and and
but they're Drake and Killian Dane are are the latest
attempt to add some some frivolity to it. But I

(33:34):
think it's been done really well. I think that this
is a really good use of Drake Maverick, a really
good use of Killian Dane. I think they're telling the
story patiently. I think they're executing it well. I like it.
How about you love it? It's been fun.

Speaker 2 (33:45):
I didn't expect to when they started putting this together,
and shame on me. I mean everything Drake Maverick touches.
If he's really you know, if he's not asked to
pee his pants basically on raw he makes work. This
guy is so talented. And it's not just the comedy
you go back in launched that viewed that he did
with East three. It just where he was the sympathetic
baby base and how good that was in TNA. This

(34:07):
guy's so good at what he does. And now he
just has me like every week going, all right, another
week closer, we're gonna see it. Come on, killy and
do the little dance to the whistle entrance music. I
can't wait.

Speaker 1 (34:17):
Yes, and it is. I mean, I think they can
be a top level take team, Like if Birch and
Larkin keep the tag titles in four months, I could
see Dane and Drake being a takeover level take team
title match, because I think they've built up Killy and
Dane's credible enough and Drake is scrappy, and I think

(34:40):
you can you know, I mean, the tag division for
Anixty isn't isn't. They're not trying to make it seem
like this is, you know, the four best take teams
in the world. They're trying to for better, for worse,
you know, get the best out of some acts that
maybe otherwise would be seen as mid card. And you know,
I'm fine with that. I'm more fine with Brizango being
in the position there and than most people. But I
don't disagree with the framing of it. I'm just more
okay with it. And and so yeah, I think this

(35:03):
is fun, and I do you know, I mean, pro
wrestling is not just created for me. It's not created
for any one taste. Now, it's dangerous to say, let's
give a little bit of something for everybody, because sometimes
that little bit of if you go a little too far.
With that, you end up being not enough of any
one or two things to be must watch TV for

(35:24):
a big demographic or a big group. But that said,
I you know, NFT's clearly decided booking wise, not to
be the just the pure straightforward sports like wrestling show.
They want characters and comedy in. You know, they want
a broader range of characters in comedy and not just
do straight up sports. And I don't know if that's
in reaction to trying to counter program a w or

(35:46):
changes in booking or Vince McMahon sending an edict or
triple h O and oh god, I thought we'd do
better and we're not. Let's let's do you know, let's
let's change things up a little bit to try to
bring the families in, the in, the kids in or whatever.
But but I think this this, I think it makes
sense to try this approach. I don't think there's a
big downside as long as you know in the end

(36:07):
that the top programs feel intense and adult.

Speaker 2 (36:10):
Yeah, it's just kind of a fun odd couple tag
team and you're taking two guys that they weren't doing
much of anything. I mean, Maverick had that run where
he's trying to get his job back and ended up
getting it, but then you could tell they didn't know
where to go next. And I think this is breathing
some life into Killian Dane, who was that guy that
he was a monster, but they beat the monster enough

(36:32):
times that he started to lose that feel. Now you
put him with Maverick and he's starting to regain that
feeling again, just in a different division. So they're doing
a great job with that.

Speaker 1 (36:43):
Now. The last topic from NFC last night is the
Cameron Grimes Dexter Limit stuff. I thought I have not
been high in Cameron Grimes doing the double jjf Jared esque,
you know, just ha ha, you know, to my own
or whatever. It just feels cartoonish and I don't know,
just kind of bush league and whatever. That said, I

(37:06):
thought that his reaction to being told that it would
be a haunted house of tear match last night that
worked for me for his character, And I'm grading on
a curve because I'm sort of having to accept that
this is who his character is going to be, you know,
a little more cartoonish, little a little more of the
worst aspects of the Double J character. But I thought
that in it. You know, it's a little convenient that

(37:27):
they happened to interview in front of a door with
a window, and that extra happened to me hanging out.
I mean there's some there's some coincidences and conveniences that
you know, are at a three's company sitcom level in
terms of, well, how how convenient for the plot and
plot development for that to happen. But that said, I
actually thought he's starting to feel his character more and

(37:48):
his kind of stammering and reaction as Dexter just loomed
in the background. I got a kick out of it.
I thought it worked. I thought it worked.

Speaker 2 (37:56):
Yeah. I mean part of me is like, doesn't he
see him? He's the way his position, like you don't
see anything out of the corner of your eye. Okay.
But so I have the same issues with the character
as you, and I think we're kind of going through
a similar thing where it's like, all right, it's not
what I want it to be, not what it could be,
but for what it is and where he is on

(38:18):
the card, it's okay. I mean, I think we're seeing
that Grimes has the you know, has that ability to
be more than this and I think Bruce Mitchell can
certainly speak to that, having seen him at all those CWF
mid Atlantic shows, but even the promos, because you're talking
about those the little things he's doing now, I think

(38:39):
that bodes well for him long term if he can
find those little things, those little subtleties that he's doing
with this over the top character. I think when the
time comes for him to play a more serious character,
he's showing that he's going to be able to do
that when it counts, and I look forward to that.
So it is kind of your teeth right now and
put up with this over the top character, hope that

(39:01):
his time is going to come.

Speaker 4 (39:09):
I'm Kelly Wells, host of PWT Talks NXT, the longest
running NXT podcast anywhere. Join me along with Nate Limberg,
Bruce Lee, Hazelwood and special guests live every Tuesday night,
just minutes after NXT, where we cover the good, the bad,
and the ugly on the way to becoming a star
in WWE. Check us out live on YouTube or stream

(39:29):
later wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 1 (39:43):
Let's shift to SmackDown and Roman Reigns. I know it
because we're recording and last time I saw Roman Rains
on TV six days ago, so it feels like a
long time ago, but it is the number one thing
in pro wrestling right now, and the Roman Rains jus
So match heading to helen us all the Sunday and
the I Quit stipulation. Just how do you grade the

(40:04):
development of this feud? And are you more into it
than ever? A little less into it than ever? Where's
your intrigue leveling? Where do you think it's at it?

Speaker 2 (40:12):
Really enjoying it? It's you know, it's weird because it's
not like I'm sitting here counting down, you know, the
hours to their match at helling to sell because I
think we all kind of have the basic idea of
what it's going to be. It's just a matter of just,
you know, how destructive is this beating that Jay is
going to take it? So there's no I guess I'm
trying to say, there's no real question about the outcome
of the match. And I know some people had a

(40:32):
real issue with that last time that, you know, they
thought it was way too predictable. It's like, but they're
telling a story. You know, It's okay to not have
every match on the show. Feels it's okay to once
in a while just look at the champion and think
the champion is going to retain as long as it's
not just an empty match like Okay one and that's it.

(40:53):
There's nothing. There's storytelling here, and I think that story
has been very compelling with Jay Uso and Roman Reigns,
and I think this will probably be the last run
for Uso against Rains, and then I look forward to
eventually perhaps him joining Reigns at that table, the proverbial
table that Roman's always talking about. So yet, this storytelling

(41:16):
has been really good. They're establishing Roman as a heel,
is it's not what I envisioned from him as a heel.
We haven't had that screw you Fans promo yet that
I think we all assumed we were going to get
from him. But it's gone really, really well. And even
if like Paul Haman certainly enhances things, but if he
wasn't part of this, Roman would still be fine. That's

(41:37):
been I think the most encouraging aspect is that the
character is strong enough that Hayman does enhance it. But again,
if he's not there, I think Roman would be able
to make this work. On his own, even if he
didn't have Hayman doing the heavy lifting on some of
those promos.

Speaker 1 (41:55):
What's the trajectory for this is it just almost obviously
Jay loses and ends up conceding that Roman is the
tribal chief and the Simone faction starts to get built.
Or does Jay lose and disappear for a while until
Jimmy's healthy and they just come back full of their

(42:17):
colorful tassels and they are a baby Face tag team
and we just sort of forget that the Rains thing happened,
or they're kind of on their own. They don't forget,
but they're on their own tack and the track in
the tag team division.

Speaker 2 (42:29):
I want the Samoan dynasty, the bloodline, whatever they want
to call them. I want to see that in time.
I don't know if we will. I don't know what
happens to Jay coming out of this pay per view,
because Jimmy clearly wasn't on the verge of returning based
and the way he looked when the way he was
moving around at that last appearance he made it the
previous pay per view, So thing's going to be some
time before he's back. So I don't know what you

(42:49):
do with Jay in the meantime, But no, I don't
want Happy Go Lucky USO's or you know, USO Penitentiary
and that's it. I really want something different for them too.
I think this whole Rains character gives them a cool
position to be in where they can try to dominate
the title picture, you know, Rains with the Universal and
those two going after Tag and if you want to,

(43:12):
I think there's a seed at that table potentially for
when he returns for Samoa Joe to kind of be
an enforcer type and obviously long term to end up
feuding with Rome and if they want to take that
approach to it.

Speaker 1 (43:24):
Was conspicuous by his absence from the draft Joe.

Speaker 2 (43:28):
Yeah, Yeah, I'm guessing when whenever he returns, they're going
to want that to be a big surprise, and so
they don't want to just kind of plant the seed
that here's the here's the brand he's going to be
on when he's done with this announcing thing.

Speaker 1 (43:40):
That's that's how I took it. Yeah, that's how I
took it. And yeah, I'm looking forward to the next
year or two of what they do with Roman reigns.
And I think they're going to be patient about it,
and it's it's it's nice to see Rains properly cast
and to have his talents. It's like, you know, we
talking about Gargana. You know, it's like, whoa, this is good,
you know, with Reins it's like that, but also not

(44:04):
as unexpected as with Gargano. This was what I always
felt Rain's was best suited for, is, you know, feeling
he's above everybody else and full of himself and self entitled,
and not that that's the real person, but the way
he presents himself on camera and where his charisma and
his presence, what that projects. It always said to me

(44:26):
an aloof heel who feels superior to the fan base
and really humanity. And you know, they've done the classic
thing where the heel has its own rationalization and we
know what it is. So you know kind of go,
you know, how could a guy be this evil or that?
You know, not that I don't know if Rains is evil,
but you know, why am I supposed to not like
this guy? And it's like he doesn't see himself as unlikable.

(44:51):
He's just being himself like sort of completely with this
cold detachment from how people feel about him. His motivation
is quote feeding his family, which I hope is a
euphemism because I think after a couple of years in
the business, he had enough money to feed his family
for life, even a pretty big family, if he wasn't
reckless with his money. So this whole thing about you know,
you're gonna starve if he doesn't get to, you know,

(45:12):
be the top guys, little little, little much. But it's
a euphemism for, you know, make my family rich and
support my family, and and so I like that. I
like that it's not the old cliche, Oh the fans
turn on me, and so I'm going to turn on them.
You know, That's just there's an awareness that that's a
cliche that's been overdone. It's trit it's a it's it's

(45:32):
a platitude, and let's move away from it.

Speaker 2 (45:35):
Yeah. I still there's part of me that is a
little disappointed we didn't get because you just know he's
got that pent up. Yeah, but I do agree it's
a cool direction to take. I hope someday the story
of how this actually finally happened comes out. I want
to know who in the hell finally convinced Vince McMahon

(45:56):
that this was the right approach? Was it Haymon? Was
it Oman himself, some combination and Bruce Pritcher' to get
through to him? Who was it that finally convinced that
stubborn old could that enough is enough. You're not getting
him over as a baby based without a heel turn.

Speaker 1 (46:11):
I know, yep, and I hope that, uh, I hope
it's Hayman, But you know it could have just been
McMahon because I mean, you think about it. If if Rains
didn't come back, you know where they would be. I mean,
Otis might be the universal champion right now, you know,
I mean well or before you know, who knows. I mean,
they didn't have a lot of cards to play that

(46:32):
were compelling, and Rain's coming back as a heel was
the hand that I think Vince felt, with struggling ratings
could be a deal changer, and you know they didn't.
I mean, I don't even know how to compute ratings.
You know, articles are written about it. You know sports
ratings are down. You know, people shouldn't draw a lot
of conclusions from it. Because of the circumstances we're in.

(46:52):
Everything is off season. Things aren't happening at their normal time.
There aren't live crowds. Everything people's lives are you know,
focused on politics and a lot of ways, and for
good reason. But you know, I think the viewership got
to an alarming point and even if demographically they were
pretty solid on Fridays, they weren't great. And so the

(47:14):
rains thing I think was a card that Fen's played
because he felt like he needed a big move, and
I think it has held together smack down. I mean
I was thinking it might they might be at two
point three million OU instead of you know, two point
one and change. But it's still solidified, some solid numbers
up against tough competition like you know, big Major League
Baseball games and such.

Speaker 2 (47:36):
Yeah, it's I mean, there are other times when they
could have used that boosbe totally know what you're saying.
They needed this Roman reigns coming back as the usual
Roman Reigns may have moved the needle for a week
or two and then it just would have been business
as usual. I really believe that. I know he's had
more of an effect on the ratings in the past,
but this is also this would have been the continuation

(47:56):
of that dead end character that just there was nothing
more to it. So now that he actually is doing
something fresh, I do think it's having a positive impact
on the ratings. And also, you know, it's not just rain.
SmackDown is a better show these days. Once in a
while they get a little they have those episodes where
they get a little too cute, see with the comedy,
and it just doesn't really click. But for the most part,

(48:19):
I think they've been doing a better job for but
probably the last two months or so. Somewhere in there,
I guess I haven't really looked to see when that
turnaround started. But I'm even before the shakeup with the Draft,
I was starting to enjoy SmackDown. I wasn't dreading it
like I did for a good portion of its run
on Fox. And I hated to say that because I

(48:40):
was really excited about the move to Fox and everything
it could mean for that company in the wrestling business
as a whole. But they didn't get it right for
a long time, and it finally feels like they're starting to.

Speaker 1 (48:53):
Anytime you're watching WWE Raw or SmackDown or aw Dynamite
in particular, send us an email if you've got thoughts
on the show, or a topic you want us to
address or a question for us, Wade Keller Podcast at
pw torch dot com. Wade Keller Podcast at petw torch
dot com. If there's anything else going on in pro
wrestling that you want us to address on our main

(49:13):
podcast during our mailbank segments, that same email applies Wade
Keller podcast at pw torch dot com. We invite that interaction.
Let us know what you think of what we're saying,
and let us know what you want us to talk
about and ask us specific questions. Wadekeller Podcast at pw
torch dot com. Also on SmackDown, Biggie is I think

(49:38):
the top babyface singles wrestler. You know, I mean, Juso
is visiting the top. But it's really an ensemble cast
in terms of that post draft, because you got Biggie,
j Uso, Raymas, Stereo, Dominic, Daniel, Bryan, Kevin Owens, Apollo Cruz.
That's it. It's not you know, you don't look at
Roman Rains's Universal Champ and say, wow, they're just you know,

(49:59):
a plethor of top baby face options. You know, Samy's ay,
and they don't. It doesn't seem like they're near turning him.
Alister Black doesn't seem like if they turned him, they
see him as a top guy or someone that they
would move to challenge Rains. Although I think if they
booked him right for six to nine months, he could
be a really compelling top baby face opponent, But right
now he's not. Then seth Rollins they might turn again,

(50:20):
although whatever they do with him in twenty twenty one,
it has to be the last turn for five years
for him. So really, Big Ee is like the top
day to day babyface, But it feels like, you know,
we talk about Kenny being a quirky flake, I mean
Big Ee with a spread eagle, you know, at the
beginning of a sales push with a new day farewell,

(50:41):
he just can't help himself, you know. And all this
stuff we said about Kenny at least that was in
front of a couple hundred thousand people, you know, internationally
on a a niche YouTube show, and you know, Kenny
hasn't shown that side of himself as much on Dynamite.
But I just, I mean, it's great that Biggie is

(51:02):
playful in a weirdo, but it's not top top guy projection,
and he's not projecting an image of a top, top guy,
and this is a time to transition him to that.
And I really was hoping we would see that now.
It doesn't mean it won't start tomorrow night, Jason, maybe
it will. But the wide eyed, big smile, spread eagle thing,

(51:23):
I just find it. And I'm not prudish, but I
find it off putting in the context of I think
how he should be framing himself. And I saw that,
I'm like, well, he can't headline RUSTLEMANI against Roman.

Speaker 2 (51:34):
Yeah, it's you know, it's too bad. Just listening to
him on Talking Smack, and I think there've been maybe
a mainstream interview that he did. I think he's really
convinced himself that he's the exception. Like everything they've done
so far has worked with New Day, and so why
would why would he stray from that? And it's because
you're entering a different phase and you're moving up the card,

(51:57):
not as the fun, quirky, silly New Day act, but
as a singles performer. But he's convinced himself today if
it's if it ain't broke, don't fix it. And this
has got a miss for he's just going to keep
doing it. Is it possible that this works for him? Sure,
but I think there's a reason that we see characters
go through transformations as they move their way up the

(52:19):
cart sometimes because what worked as a fun loving six
man tag or tag team title holding act even isn't
necessarily what's going to be what's best as that main
event singles player. And I just don't know that he's
come to that same conclusion yet. It's just it really
does seem like this is the direction that he thinks

(52:39):
he needs to take to make this work. And I
don't agree.

Speaker 1 (52:43):
Yeah, yeah, I don't either. I mean, I enjoy Biggie
in New Day. I mean there's sometimes where I'm like, Okay,
I wouldn't say I'm uncomfortable, but I'm sometimes embarrassed for him.
But you know, I mean teach their own. But I
just he seems like a good guy and a talented
guy and someone with a connection with the fan base.

(53:04):
And I'd like to see a switch get flipped where
he's he has a larger purpose other than making people
go elbow the person next to him who's looking at
their phone. Did you see what Biggy did? Oh my god?
That was funny, Like, that's not a main event character,
and I think he should aspire to be more than
the court jester now that he's a top singles act.

Speaker 2 (53:26):
Yeah. I just think it's a like I say, could
at work doing what he's doing. I can't rule it
out completely, but do I think there's a safer, more
proven route for him to take. Yes, yeah, it just
toned down some of it and be more even if
it's just like you know, typical main event there's a

(53:46):
reason that again, you know, you kind of lose some
of the comedy elements as you work your way up
the cards sometimes. And I think it would again just
be a safer approach for him for in terms, not
safer in terms of the well just say, for more
realistic chance of him really clicking as that main event
guy and not being a disappointment.

Speaker 1 (54:07):
Yeah. Yep. Now, dinga Bryan is is if he sticks
around long enough, can he be a WrestleMania baby face
opponent to a heel Roman reigns in twenty twenty one
or are we sort of pasted past that as a
dream match that you can put on the poster for

(54:30):
you know, Thunderdome or otherwise based WrestleMania.

Speaker 2 (54:35):
I think he can be. I think I don't have
great confidence in them to get it right with him.
I mean, hell, they didn't the first time. But there's
still the connection that he has with fans. That's that's
very obvious. And you know, it's just a matter of
kind of finding the right creative for him, actually committing

(54:57):
and deciding that that's it is or guy now and
not fighting it like they did the last time. I think, yeah,
I think there's a way that this could happen. I
don't know that it will. I mean, what's your gut
tell you? Is it if all things stayed the same
and they're not doing intro from or intra brand matches,
So if we have to pick from the SmackDown pool,

(55:19):
is it Roman Reigns defense against Big Ee, Daniel Bryan
or someone else?

Speaker 1 (55:25):
I guess I'm thinking someone else, but not like more
than fifty percent like it. It really feels like I
don't know. I mean, it could be Jimmy USO by then,
it could be they could speed their way through and
it's Samoa Joe. It could be Yan Goldberg. The and

(55:49):
this depends on you know, whether there's a vaccine and
all that, But I mean the wild card, just game
changer would be seem Punk as a babyface coming back
as the guy. You know, it's like Seampunk can talk
himself into coming back because it's against the heal Roman
reigns and his whole departure from w B was based
on being told make the Scott well, not totally, but
you know, he was a big part of that podcast.

(56:11):
The cult was you know, I was told make make
Roman look good, make Roman look good, and the focus
wasn't not making me look good. There's a whole built
in storyline there. I don't see that happening as soon
as as WrestleMania next year, but I throw that out
there as a possibility. And then obviously the Rock Rock's
not gonna come back unless there's a stadium full of people,
nor should he, and so then you just sort of
look at the roster and it's like they're not going

(56:31):
to do Universal versus w W Champ. I mean, that
doesn't make any sense to do Champ versus Champ, like
Drew versus Roman, yet I don't think I think you
wait till they're on the same brand. So yeah, then
it's like, okay, well, could be big Ee, could be
Daniel Bryan, could be Stath Wins the rubble, and they
use that to transition him to a different, different character.

(56:52):
I mean, I am I missing an obvious candidate. Jason
the only one.

Speaker 2 (56:57):
I guess. I don't know if you mentioned Brocklesner, I guess, yeah, yeah,
that jumps out and again, but from the actual roster.
You know that people that are there right now, I'm
not seeing no one's really jumping out at me. I
mean they I guess you could turn Seth babyface again
by that point, but I think that would be really
rushing it, and.

Speaker 1 (57:14):
Brock Brock definitely could work. Would is Brock gonna be
a babyface when he returns? Or do you do? You think?

Speaker 2 (57:21):
You know?

Speaker 1 (57:22):
And I hesitate to even say this, that everything they're
doing with Paul and Roman is to set up Roman
being a badass babyface who was always looking up for
his family but was sort of misunderstood and use some
tactics that you know, we're gonna pretend didn't happen in
the way that he treated Jay. But that's it. Paul
ends up going back to Lesnar, and Vince just sees
this as a way to try to get Roman over

(57:43):
as a cheered babyface.

Speaker 2 (57:45):
I mean, I hope they just commit to Roman as
a heel. You can have your eye on the prize
long term, but I hope it's not by WrestleMania we
want him to be a babyface. I think that's that
would be really premature of them, and I think he
would the people that he's starting to win over right
now that are enjoying him as a heel. I think
long term you can get them to enjoy him as
a babyface, but if you rush to it, you really

(58:07):
run the risk of turning them off. So I don't
know that I would. I know I wouldn't be in
a rush too to make that move, but I do
think long term, yeah, that's probably the direction. But I
think in the short term, I think it makes sense
to have Brockby the baby face. You know, he's Paul
Hayman's no longer with him, and you can get into
some personal stuff there with those two characters. You know,

(58:29):
Hayman basically deciding that he hitched his wagonto the new
horse because the old horse was you know, it was
done and there's nothing left in the tank, and you
can play that card and you know, with Hayman delivering
a much better promo than I could on Rock Lesner,
and I think you can get a little sympathy for Lesner,
believe it or not. I think there's a way that
that could work. I would. I mean that the big

(58:52):
one is obviously, as you said, Rock and Roman, but
I think it's unrealistic for this year's mania. I know
they're claiming they're going to have a full house and
Tampa for the super Bowl, and that's the same stadium
in WrestleMania. We'll be if they can pull it off.
But I got I would hope that, you know, I mean,
if we have a vaccine by then, great, if it
can happen, they'd be wonderful. Realistically, I wait, I hope

(59:14):
this event isn't being held at a full stadium in Tampa,
given you know, under the circumstances.

Speaker 1 (59:19):
I know, the headline notifications on my phone are we're
headed to the deepest, darkest place when it comes to
COVID in the next few months than what we've seen.
And that's you know, based on trend lines and science,
not wishful thinking and ignorant politicians, which you know, there's
plenty of in Florida. So I mean, we'll see, but

(59:41):
I don't know anyway.

Speaker 5 (59:47):
Are you a nostalgic wrestling fan? Do you want to
hear about shows you haven't seen in ten, twenty, maybe
even thirty years. Well, I have the show for you.
I'm pwshorts dot com contributor Frank petty Ani, and since
December of twenty twenty, I've hosted Pro Wrestling Then and Now.
Together with a rotating chair of co hosts, we go
back and review old shows from top to bottom, talk

(01:00:07):
about where the wrestlers were at the time, and compare
what's taking place now to what took place. Then you
can hear this along with other shows as part of
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Speaker 1 (01:00:36):
So yeah, I'm intrigued. I like Rock as a babyface
against Roman for sure, and I think that Brock was
sort of played out as a heel, and I think
you and I agree it was sort of like, all right,
let's please, let's move on. So Brock coming back, and
you know, Paul's very invested in Roman and making the
best of Roman. That's been one of Paul's specialties is

(01:00:56):
taking somebody in who we just you know, ataches himself
to and does what he can with them, whether it
was as a manager or an ECW as a promoter.
You know, what he's able to do with Shane Douglas,
what he was able to do with Rob van Dam,
what he was able to do even with just incredible
you know, at a different phase of ECW where a
lot of his talent got plucked. And you know, Paul
likes projects, and I think that as much of a

(01:01:19):
lightning rod as he can be and an agitator and
untrusted behind the scenes and all that over the decades
and butting heads with with authority, there's a reason he
is not completely ostracized in his business. And it's his
just immense talent and skill and brilliance when it comes
to attaching himself to someone as a project and getting something,

(01:01:40):
you know, getting something out of them. And so if
he has any say so on this, and I think
it's pretty obviously. Does I want to see what he
would orchestrate for a Rock Roman feud? I don't haven't
loved everything Paul's been associated with. And you know, unless
he writes a telaubook, and even if he did, I
still won't trust it. But I won't know where he

(01:02:01):
got his way and where other people got in the way.
But all that's that his greater body of work. And
I know from talking to him, you know, I don't
know one hundred times over the years. I want to.
I want to see what he would do with a
lesbian Rains feud.

Speaker 2 (01:02:13):
Yeah, and I think we're definitely seeing it for a
guy who was removed from creative power. I mean, his
fingerprints are all over everything they're doing with Roman and
just you can hear Paul Haman in these lines, whether
it's Hayman saying them or Roman saying them, or even
Jay Husha is saying them. If I'm wrong on that,
I'm wrong, but boy, it sure sounds like it to me.

Speaker 1 (01:02:35):
Is their chance to so becomes a single star after
he's not around Rains or is this sort of a
one off? And it's you know, we're seeing Jay is
not an alpha.

Speaker 6 (01:02:46):
I you know, I think it's a one off. It's
it's possible. He I mean, I guess I kind of
see him as being if they're gonna go singles with him.
Let's say Jamie's out of the picture for longer and
they want to do something with Jay. I see it
being more of a secondary title level run and doesn't

(01:03:09):
mean he can't get past that. But I don't feel
like i've as a viewer, I don't feel like I've
really connected with his character yet. And some of it,
you know, he was playing the overly trusting relative who
wanted to believe that you know, his cousin was doing
right by him.

Speaker 2 (01:03:28):
And now to that point where it's kind if they're
serious about him as a singles guys, I think we're
entering that to the critical part where it's time for
him to connect with the audience beyond the USO penitentiary.
And I keep saying that line, like when they did
it initially as the tag team, it was fine, but
you need a little more depth, I think as a
singles wrestler, And so can he make that connection not

(01:03:52):
as the guy who you feel bad for because Roman's
beating the hell out of him in these matches, but
you know, can he make a real connection where people
will start to latch onto him and want to see
good things for his character beyond this feud. I think again,
I think he can at a secondary title level. Can
he get too? World title true star status? And remains
to be seen.

Speaker 1 (01:04:13):
To me, And I'm waiting for him to show me
if he can have a breakout promo and maybe that
happens tomorrow night because so far and maybe it's he's
been cast that way, but he just seems and he's
coming across as being simple like that. There's not a
lot going on upstairs with him that he doesn't He
can't complete a thought, He speaks in sentence fragments, and

(01:04:36):
he looks like somebody who would need somebody smarter and
more of an alpha to lead the way. And there's
no body of evidence with him prior to this angle
that suggests that conflicts with that either in terms of
his ability to project anything on air other than that.
I don't, I don't know, you know. I like again,
it's he's been well cast and executing his role well.

(01:04:58):
I just don't know if there's a lot more to
him with a microphone in his hand beyond the Roman
Rains feud. I haven't seen evidence of it. I don't
know either way, but there's no evidence to suggest otherwise,
and so that might explain. You know, it's like Ketgen Christian.
I mean, for years they didn't do promos, the Hardys.
For years they didn't do promos. They just Vince Man
would throw them out there to wrestle. And it turned out,

(01:05:18):
you know, Jeff wasn't. You know, he wasn't. I won't
even say Jeff's good on the microphone. He's had good promos,
but he's not overall good on the microphone. You know,
his syntax is weird, his inflection is weird. It's just
not his thing. Matt Hardy turned out to be, you know,
really good on the microphone, and then Edging Christian turned
out to be really good talkers. You know, they once
they broke away from getting squashed into on one matches

(01:05:40):
by Undertaker. So you know, sometimes tag teams don't talk
for a reason. Other times is because they didn't have it.
Take team wrestlers aren't given a chance on the microphone
because they aren't good. Other times it's they just haven't
been given a chance and they are good so far.
I'm getting the sense that at least Jay was in
a tag team and they wasn't given more promo time
other than spouting platitudes and catchphrases. It's because it's just

(01:06:04):
not his skill set, and so that that's where I'm
skeptical that there's much he can do beyond this as
a singles breakout star.

Speaker 2 (01:06:11):
Yeah, I think that all makes sense.

Speaker 1 (01:06:13):
Yeah, on the uh, on this fact down side of things,
The Seth mysterio Murphy saga continues. Daniel Brian got interjected
into that is this going on too long? Or is
there more to work with with Ray's daughter and Murphy

(01:06:34):
and the dynamic between Seth and Murphy and how Dominic
reacts to being a protective big brother and Ray as
a father figure, Like are you still intrigued by this?
Did they breathe new life into it?

Speaker 2 (01:06:46):
I think by adding a leah, they did breathe a
little new life into it. I'm still curious to see
how that plays out. But it's they need to find
creative ways to keep this interesting week by week because
it has gone on a long time, and I feel like,
as a viewer, I'm kind of on the edge where
I could see myself if they can tell the right
story getting staying into this, but if they take a

(01:07:08):
wrong turn here or there, I'm gonna lose interest quickly.
So it has gone on probably longer than it needs to.
But until they play, you know, they have to pay
up this Alia thing, and so far it's been decent.
I don't know if they picked the right guy and
Murphy to be able to handle his end of that

(01:07:30):
mic work that I think is going to need to
be delivered to make this work. But we'll see, you know,
we don't know until he tries.

Speaker 1 (01:07:37):
Yeah, I'm intrigued. They only have a two hour show,
but they have a smaller roster so for that, so
they just are moving, you know, they're moving the storyline
from roll over to SmackDown in you know, it's just
it's the moving van. Everyone got in and they drove
to Friday. So it'll just continue on and I am

(01:07:57):
I'm curiously where it goes. I mean, I think Dominic
is a potential rising well he has a rising star,
but I think he has really big potential. I mean,
like I not everybody could handle what he's done so far.
He could look like he's in way over his head,
and he doesn't. To me, I think he's going to
be a main roster, mainstay, and you know, like any

(01:08:17):
kid getting a push out of the gate, not having
to go through the grind of developmental indie scene NXT
I rightfully, along with everybody else, are ready to go nepotism.
He's being over pushed. It's Eric Watts all over again.
It's David Bruno, It's David Sammartino all over again. Mike
Van Eric, you know, pull your pluck, your example from history.
I think he's done really well and I have no

(01:08:40):
criticism of him. I think he's earned the TV time
he has.

Speaker 2 (01:08:44):
Yeah, I'm with you. I've never felt that way about him,
having lived through so many of those second generation people
you mentioned, I've never felt that way about Dominic I
was into it when it was time for him to
finally get in the ring, to the point that I
remember being disappointed that they may a no DQ or
some stipulation. It's like, I don't care that he can
swing a cando stick. I want to see if he

(01:09:04):
can wrestle. Yep, And he's had a chance to prove
himself and he's shown that he can. Still a lot
left to prove, you know, can he deliver on the MIC?
He's not there yet. Facial expression wise leave something to
be desired, But for his age and the big position
that he's been put in, he's man. He's done a
hell of a job, So yeah, I think he has

(01:09:25):
a very bright future.

Speaker 1 (01:09:34):
You don't have to wait for the way Keller Pro
Wrestling post show to find out what I thought of
Monday Night Raw and SmackDown. Each week, you can check
out my reports that are updated live throughout Raw and
SmackDown at pwtorch dot com. My written report will tell
you what's happening in detail in case you missed the show,
and it'll also analyze key segments and give my random
thoughts quips on what I'm watching as it airs. So

(01:09:56):
check it out every Monday night and Tuesday night at
pete w dot com. That also applies to WWE pay perviews.
I cover those live at pw torch dot com with
a detailed written report with star ratings, and of course
you can find other TV reports from other contributors to
PW torch such as nxt roh, Impact Wrestling, and more.
Check it out pw torch dot com your first stop

(01:10:18):
for TV and pay per view written reports. Let's talk
about Sasha Bailey. How do you grade Sasha's progression as

(01:10:40):
a babyface opposite of Bailey.

Speaker 2 (01:10:43):
I give this about a D minus because they haven't
given me a reason to like her. She's the boss,
and we're just supposed to accept that she did everything
Bailey did. She was just as manipulative as Bailey, and
she did all the same terrible things that Bailey did.
There's no Mia Kalpa, there's no nothing. It's just well,

(01:11:05):
Bailey turned on her first, and now we're supposed to
like Sasha. I don't like when they do this, and
I ultimately think it, unfortunately, is probably not going to
matter because people do like Sasha Banks and they'll be
quick to rally behind her once, you know, when they
have that match, and Bailey is a good enough keel
that I think it's going to be easy to cheer
for Sasha. But it does frustrate me that they just

(01:11:28):
don't seem to care about turning people properly. It's just
it's half ass compared to the way these things used
to be done.

Speaker 1 (01:11:36):
I agree. I'm on the same page as you. I
thought Sasha was primed to be a breakout singles lead
babyface on Smack Donno ra whatever. After the draft, and
I just I don't I mean the way that they're
that they've booked this, in the way that she's carrying herself.
I don't think they believe she can be that person.

(01:11:57):
And I don't know that now. I'm sorry not whether
she can, because I just this, I'm just disappointed in
every twist and turn in this lately, and including her
her segment she's wishy why she doesn't seem self aware
of how saying, you know, friends are supposed to stand

(01:12:17):
by each other when that friend is is you know,
doing the things that Bailey did. You know at some
point to be a babyface, you have to you have
to say I was wrong to ever stick a rap
stick with you, you know, to put friendship ahead of doing
the right thing. And to again, it's like the seth
Rawlins getting dumped by the authority. It's like you can't
turn because the bad guys got rid of you. You

(01:12:39):
have to turn because you your eyes were open to
what was going on, and that isn't who at your
core you were. And Bailey still lamenting not being Bailey's
friend more than she's saying I should have never been
your friend in the first place. And so yeah, I'm disappointed,
you know, I don't.

Speaker 2 (01:12:54):
Know, I'm disappointed with their entire women's division, but yeah,
that would I've spent so much time on I can't
believe they couldn't get that right.

Speaker 1 (01:13:01):
On the U it said the whole women's division. It
just seems like they're just trying to They're just went
for Charlotte to come back over on Raw. Yes, she's
so prominent in the in the opening on Raw. You know,
when you look at the draft, the shake up at
the draft, it's clear, you know, they have her positioned
as the top singles wrestler when she comes back. I mean,

(01:13:21):
you know, they've had they've had fun in the in
the pandemic era with Oscar being all wacky and Zany.
Naomi doesn't seem like, you know, she's gonna get this
huge push. And don't want to read too much into
the Raw opening, but she was buried in that, you know,
and and some thought goes into that, and then you know,
Dana Brook, Mandy Rose, Nikki Cross, Lona Peyton, Royce, Lacy Evans,
none of them seem like they've been protected in a

(01:13:43):
way where you would think they'd be a top star
and Alextion Bliss is doing her thing with a fiend.
So and Jackson Base are in a tag team and
they're gonna float between brands as champs. So it really
is It seems like we're headed towards Charlotte versus Oscar
and then probably Charlotte Naomi and then maybe Charlotte Mandy
Rose with Charlotte as a he and I'm not against that, Jason.
I guess if they just really solidify Charlotte as a heel,

(01:14:06):
and that's how I think what she should be. She's big,
and I think she's better as a heel than a face.
I don't think she's a particularly sympathetic person as a
wrestling act. I should say, so, do that and a
Fiend and Alexa turn, you know, go babyface, then you
can even do Charlotte Alexa.

Speaker 2 (01:14:22):
So.

Speaker 1 (01:14:23):
I just think the things are lined up more for
Charlotte to be a heel opponent or a heel champion
facing a lineup of challenging babyfaces.

Speaker 2 (01:14:31):
I think this is a pivotal point for Charlotte because
if she comes back and it's the same character, it's
the wooing, it's the royalty cliche lines. Give it two
weeks and it's going to feel like she was never gone.
It's that this character isn't strong. And I know they
love her and they can't wait to get her back,
but the character needs something fresh, something new, and I

(01:14:55):
don't know if they figured that out yet. I hope
they have, because she is incredibly talented. It's not meant
to just crap on her, but realistically it's just tired.
I'm bored as soon as she starts those royalty line justly,
Oh my god, this again, it's no different than KORbin.

(01:15:16):
Can we please move on from the king gimmick and
the queen gimmick and just no more royalty nonsense. It's
not helping anyone.

Speaker 1 (01:15:24):
Oh, I'm with you on that. And I hope that
this time away and when she returns is a chance
to not necessarily reset, but refresh the heel act and
get away from the deep voice sing sung recited lines.
I want her to talk like a freaking human being
and not go into that wrestler mode of talking like
it's just like you're not a ring announcer, You're a

(01:15:45):
human being. Please please let's coach her into that mode.
What do you think of the Alexa Blis Fiend Development's
over Unraw.

Speaker 2 (01:15:56):
It've been compelling so far. I've enjoyed it. I think
the fact that they were moved from Raw tells me
that they're not you know, that this isn't going to
be a baby face Fiend, because I think they moved
in there with the idea of eventually feuding with your McIntyre,
which does scare me because everyone the Fiend works with
seems to cool off quickly. But hopefully, you know, with

(01:16:17):
Bliss being part of the act, that does freshen things
up a little bit. I thought the Firefly Phone House
on Monday was just a waste. It just like you
had nothing new to say other than Alexa showing up
at the end. A little bit disappointing for his first
appearance on the Raw side doing that bit, but well
technically it wasn't but you know what I mean. Coming

(01:16:38):
out of the season premiere with Yeah, I'm optimistic, but
I still have this fear that they're not going to
figure out that the horror movie approach to his matches
is doing a lot more harm than it is good.
It's I just don't need to see him, know selling

(01:16:58):
everything popping up from everything. It seemed like they were
starting to move away from that, and then it just
started happening again within the last month or so. I
don't remember which match it was, but he kind of
went back into no selling mode, and that's yeah, it's
not good for him either. I think it's a short
term thing that's going to run out of gas very

(01:17:19):
quickly unless they can kind of figure out a way
to do things differently and make the Fiend feel a
little more mortal. And I think that just goes against
Vince's instincts because I think he looks at him as
through the same hocus pocus length that he did Undertaker
worked for Undertaker, right, wouldn't have work for Fiend. It's like,
because it hasn't, and it's you're going to ruin this
character the more you do this, and you're going to

(01:17:41):
ruin a lot of other people that he works with
along the way.

Speaker 1 (01:17:44):
I am interested in how a Drew McEntyre Fiend match
goes like because Drew is such as you know, more
straightforward character you feud with Randy Orton.

Speaker 7 (01:17:58):
And.

Speaker 1 (01:18:00):
The Fiend, like you said, is playing the supernatural horror
movie character, and it's just I'm curious to see if that,
you know, if that happens right after Randy Orton, or
if they do something with aj styles first with Drew
or something else. But when we do get to Drew
in the Fiend, I think it's going to challenge Drew's

(01:18:20):
presentations as a more just timeless babyface champion who you
could drop into the nineteen fifties or the nineteen seventies
or the nineteen nineties, like I think Drew is timeless
in the Fiend obviously, is something very specific?

Speaker 2 (01:18:35):
Yes, yep, Yeah, I don't know who's next, but it
will be interesting to see once they get through Randy,
who is next in line to feud with McIntyre. I
thought it might be Seamous, just because those guys are friends,
and Vince always seems to have a soft spot for Seamous,
But the way he lost on Monday to you know,

(01:18:56):
Kobe Kingston, who's doing tag matches, They're not going there.

Speaker 1 (01:19:00):
Yeah. I was thinking Seamus, you know, when he first
came back, and then along the way at different times,
and certainly after the draft, I'm like, Okay, you know,
let's get another main event. Heal run out of him,
and I mean I'm not I don't think it should
be headlining WrestleMania necessarily, but no, you know, he's talented
and there's a legacy aspect to him. He's been to

(01:19:21):
the top. You know, he's good in the ring and
he's good on the mic, and yeah, I just I
feel like they've already fined him down over the last
week or so, and in a way where it's like, you, nah,
he's not He's not going to be someone you could
just recredibly rebuild quickly to be a challenger for Drew.
You know, the whole thing of w B jobbing wrestlers
out before they switch brands is so weird.

Speaker 2 (01:19:43):
It really is. I don't understand it at all.

Speaker 1 (01:19:46):
Yeah, Seamus real quick.

Speaker 2 (01:19:49):
Yeah, you know I wrote about this in the hit
list this week. We've learned nothing about Seamus since like
week three of his run in w W A. Yeah,
there have been no characters, no character to development. And
he's had you know, yes, he had a title reign
and he's held the secondary titles, tag titles, all that,
but when it comes to his character, it's all cliche lines.

(01:20:10):
And I can see why they would like his promos
because it's all you know, bullet points and sound bites.
And catchphrases, but there's nothing human about it. You're not
learning like who's the guy behind this character? And until
he does that, I think he's going to be stuck
in this role. They can try to push him into
just as they've done in the past, where hey we

(01:20:31):
need a challenger, let's go a Seamus and it doesn't work.
So until they kind of figure out we need to
take a different approach with him from a character standpoint,
I just don't see anything changing for him.

Speaker 1 (01:20:41):
I agree, I agree, and I would think there's more
to tap into with him, and yes, doesn't seem like
it's there.

Speaker 8 (01:20:49):
I'm Chris Maitland, I'm Justin McLellin. We host Wrestling Coast
to Coast, a podcast independal wrestling.

Speaker 9 (01:20:55):
Every week, Christ and I review a different show or
talk about important topics from around the indie sing world.

Speaker 8 (01:21:00):
Learn about the hot underground stars and the future main eventors.
For anyone else, you can reach us at Torchcoast to
Coast at gmail dot com and me on Blue Sky
at Mind of Maitland.

Speaker 9 (01:21:10):
You can reach me at Blue Sky at Justin McClelland.

Speaker 8 (01:21:13):
Find the show on your PW. Torch Daily Cast podcast
feed search pw torch on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever
you listen to podcasts.

Speaker 9 (01:21:21):
Also stream the latest shows on pwtorch dot com.

Speaker 1 (01:21:30):
What's going on with retribution? Jason?

Speaker 2 (01:21:32):
Like?

Speaker 1 (01:21:32):
What is what's been the point of all the TV
time they put into them? And how are we supposed
to feel about them in general and specifically in relation
to her business?

Speaker 2 (01:21:42):
It's over? I mean that's how I see this. I
feel bad for me stop Ali. A lot of people
were excited for him getting this opportunity. It's like, yeah,
be careful what you wish for, because I want to
see them do good things with him too. But I
think he's become the face to something that they already
knew was a failure before they attached his face to it.
I really wonder if this had started to click, whether

(01:22:03):
they have actually gone with all E or they have
taken a different direction. I mean the way they lost
on Monday with t bar tapping out to Lashley's finish
or I'm like, this is over, and then we get
the promo from all Ee later in the show, I'm like, oh,
I guess not, But where do you go with this?
And if you're you know, a fan of all E
like I am. I think you just hope that he's

(01:22:25):
going to use this time as brief as I think
it's going to be as the face of this thing,
and he's going to impress the right people in WWE,
and they're going to say, Okay, you know, we kind
of get him a raw deal with that Retribution thing,
but this guy shows he has talent, let's do more
with him. Because Retribution's going nowhere. This thing is done.
They need to just pull the plug on this. It's

(01:22:48):
they clearly just at one night they unroll where they
decided we're going to throw a bunch of stuff at
the wall and see what sticks. And we had montese
Ford poison, we had the creation of Retribution, we had
raw underground debut. None of it has worked.

Speaker 1 (01:23:02):
I've been just confused about her business and how we're
supposed to feel about them, And because the announcers keep
praising them for stepping up and standing up to Retribution.
And you know, I'm not even gonna get into because
I had before I think Retribution saying we're you know,
we've been I say, I'm not going to get into
it here. I am, but like you know, we're not

(01:23:25):
Ali said, you know, these guys weren't being an a chance.
They didn't play play the game, the corporate game. You know. However,
you want to read into the things that he's saying,
it's setting up being a babyface group. But I don't
think vincc man sees it that way. You know, people
who don't play the game and played by the rules
and work within the system. But it's just such a
counterproductive message for professional wrestling to send out. Fans want

(01:23:45):
to cheer people like Steve Austin who are against the system,
not people who you think got ahead because they smooched
like MS does you know after hours with management and
and acts like a big company man who's going to
help promote the brand. Like that's not what wrestling fans
tune into wrestling to watch. I mean, some don't think
about it in those ways. They just you don't think
the fiend is cool, or they think Extra Limits is creepy,

(01:24:07):
And that's fine. But I think there's a large fan
base that AW is winning over by the way, because
it doesn't feel like a bunch of corporate, corporate zombies
trying to play the game in some big corp you know,
multinational corporation that can't wait to tell you about their
latest charity move for marketing purposes and so to me,
Ali and Retribution are sort of anti that. So, but

(01:24:29):
that Bud Vince doesn't see it that way. He sees
something as heals. So with that framework, this idea of
hurt business standing up to retribution, it's you know, in
babyface announcers like Byron sext and praising though they're the
only ones who stepped up well you know, there weren't
a lot of options on the raw roster. But then
you have hurt business beat up Titus O'Neil, who's like
the nicest guy in the world, Like, you know, you
can't imagine a more sympathetic figure than Titus. So I

(01:24:51):
don't know what they what they're trying to do with
hurt Business, And if they think that they're going to
be kind of a cool babyface you know, four Horsemen
esque faction, but kind of you know, I don't know
that beating up Titus is a path to get there.
That feels like an uneed a chapter. Yet they keep
framing them as these you know, guys who were cool

(01:25:11):
because they stood up to retribution, who are the ultimate
heels who were destroying the set. So I just don't know.
Do you think that I'm missing something or do you
think they don't know what they're doing or they're sending
mixed signals on purpose? What's up?

Speaker 2 (01:25:22):
No, I don't think they know what they're doing. I mean,
I do think beating up Titus can be a baby
face move, but you have to have them to do
that ob notxious seal borking thing a bunch of times
and talk more about Titus worldwide they did then Yeah, yeah,
that's baby face move. So yeah, it's because.

Speaker 1 (01:25:38):
I love hurt business like I want them to be.
They can make money with them as heels or faces,
but the mixed signals is moneying things, right.

Speaker 2 (01:25:45):
Pick a direction they just and stick with it. I
don't Yeah, I don't understand why they've been the one
standing up to Retribution, which is definitely a baby face move.
And yeah, and then in the same show they'll be
feuding with Tight this week, and then in past week's
Ricochet and Mustapha before he turned. So yeah, it's just

(01:26:05):
pick a direction. I don't even care Whisch. I don't
feel strongly about her business. I think MVP's promos are
really good. I like that they kind of have Lashly
going in the right direction now, you know, meaning he's
just a badass. He's not doing the weird things with Lana.
Shelton and Cedric feelick. They're kind of along for the ride.

Speaker 1 (01:26:24):
Although I want them to be uh framed and booked
and as the great as a great take team, Like
I just think that's that's the way that you turn
her business into a a four horseman of this generation
and you know when NW of this generation, whatever you

(01:26:45):
pick your faction, that that worked. There's potential for that,
but Shelton, Shelton and Cedric have to and it can
be m VP and a take ting too if you want.
Although I like him more and kind of the hybrid
oly Anders and JJ Dillon roll if we're to project
the Horseman out a comparison, but Cederic and Shelton as
a tag team going up against New Day. If Cedric

(01:27:07):
and Shelton aer heals, that works for me and I
could see that being a you know, a significant and
multi month compelling feud with really good matches. But they
just have to make sure that they treat Shelton Benjamin
as a serious act that are committed to being a
great tag team and they value those tag team titles
and New Day are are you know, trying to trying

(01:27:28):
to protect it from getting in the hands of her business?
I think you can. I think that's just ready made
to happen as opposed to Cedric and Shelton just seeming like,
you know, mid to lower card sidekicks.

Speaker 2 (01:27:36):
Sure, yeah, I think that would be fine.

Speaker 1 (01:27:38):
By the way you mentioned Lano, what do you think
is going on? And how much longer?

Speaker 2 (01:27:43):
Oh man? I mean, it's just five times now since
her husband said Vince could kiss his ass on aw
Dynamite Television, she's been put through a table. So I
don't think it's a coincidence, and I'm sure they'd claim
it is, but I don't know. I don't remember seeing
her do another table spot in her entire run with
the company. Maybe I'm forgetting one. Yeah. The weird thing,

(01:28:08):
I wasn't even ruling out them doing some fluke Lana
title reign on Monday, just so they could say, see
it's you know, we're not doing this, and also because
they really have nothing else going with anyone, you know,
like might as well and the Oscar Raine. She's beating
everyone there is to beat, it feels like. But yeah,
I at this point, I don't feel like I'm sure

(01:28:29):
there's some you know, Instagram numbers or something that would
say otherwise, Ana is ice cold. If it is a
matter of well, she's just around until her contract expires
and then she gonna join her husband, you know what,
quit being patty. I don't know if that's the case.
Maybe she's perfectly content being there. But if it's me
and she wants out, I let her go. You're not
losing anything.

Speaker 1 (01:28:50):
And I think there's a redundancy with Lana, Lacey, Dana,
and Mandy all on the Raw women's roster, none of
them being projected as or framed or promoted or booked
to be rising top stars. I mean, Mandy's probably the
best bet out of that group, but Lacey it's been
you know, start and stop. You know, Dana is Dana,

(01:29:10):
So yeah, I just I don't know. It's Lana just
feels like she's yeah, it's it's a gig and they're
going to do it for a while.

Speaker 2 (01:29:19):
Now.

Speaker 1 (01:29:19):
I do feel guilty because I'm kind of getting a
kick out of it, but not in a way where
I would like actually endorse it. I can think it's
prudent to do, but you know, I just it is
kind of more funny than I find it, more amusing
than I'm than I'm outraged by it, as long as
it's safe to do, you know, I don't want to
actually getting concussed and asked to do it over and
over again. But you know, I don't think Lana is

(01:29:40):
a particularly serious act or good enough in the ring
where I'm like, oh, it's such you know, they're they're
losing out on something could be so much better.

Speaker 2 (01:29:47):
They never should have put her in the ring. I
have no idea why this company feels the need to
do this. We'll have someone who is working as a
personality who isn't a wrestler, and they'll ruin them by
making them wrestle like everybody else. It with Maria back
in the day, you know, you go like new. With Elizabeth,
it seemed to work out just fine, but a lot
of same things she was, She meant so much more

(01:30:08):
before she became just another wrestler. Even Marie. Same thing.

Speaker 1 (01:30:13):
It's like it's dues paying, you know, ever always got
to pay their dues, But sometimes you know it should
be more about just make your money, make your money. Yep,
AJ and his new the big man as the announcers
called him, because they didn't want to pronounce his name
or try to pronounce his name. I'm not going to
turn on the screen. Yes, I mean, is this fresh

(01:30:34):
enough AJ's act? Or does it make just AJ seem
shorter than ever? Or is it perfect? Because AJ being
pretty short, you know, under six feet tall, makes his
this new guy the old he's I guess he's been
promoted from bouncer at raw underground or doorman. Does this
make him seem even taller? And then does this work
for AJ?

Speaker 2 (01:30:53):
I think it does. You know, I was looking forward
to seeing more with AJ and Joseph Park, But that's
Joseph Park is a comedy act and a good one.
I don't think that's what they That's not the role
they need AJ in right now. They need to make
They need to build him up for an eventual program,
which you're a McIntyre and comedy is not the way
to go with that. Where I think this adds a

(01:31:15):
little something new to his act and he needed it.
He's just as good as he is. He's been positioned
as this second yer champion level for a while and
to take him a guy who's at that second tier
level going after the IC title or I guess that
was when he was going after last time and trying
to now say he's ready to go back into the

(01:31:37):
world title picture. Hey, you got to have a little
something different there. It can't just be the same old guy.
And so I think this does add a little something
to it and long term, you know, if you keep
this act together and the plan is for the eventual split,
AJ's a hell of a guy to work with. If
you're Jordan Oh. I'm not even going to try to
pronounce his last name, but they need to come up

(01:31:58):
with the name for this guy because that it's not
an easy one to say, it's not an easy one
to spell, and it just doesn't seem like it's Jordan
Oh whatever it is. No, that it just doesn't fit.
It's not WWE style. They do, you have to come
up with a name for him.

Speaker 1 (01:32:14):
Yes, I agree, And if they're not going to come
up with the style name, then make sure your announcers
are repeating over and over again his name so we
get good at it. Yes, Yes, we're about to go
to a commercial break. Whyles'sed to commercial breaks? When you
can go VIP and experience our shows with the ads

(01:32:35):
and plugs removed. Pw torch dot com slash go VP.
That's pw torch dot com slash go VIP for full details,
or go to Patreon Patreon dot com slash pw Torch
VIP rate start as low as four dollars in ninety
nine cents to remove the ads and plugs through Patreon.
Full VIP membership starts at nine dollars in ninety nine
cents to reach yourself to a streamlined, ad and plug

(01:32:57):
free listening experience with a VIP or Patriot Round membership.
We have yet to talk about m Jeff and Jericho
and I want to go to Sea.

Speaker 2 (01:33:12):
Was wondering.

Speaker 1 (01:33:12):
Yeah, when it goes, I'm saving because we've got some
emails on it, and I want to do some emails here,
so we'll go to Adam from Ohio. He goes. I
just want to put my two cents in on the
Chris Jericho MGF showtune by the way, it's also a
ratings play. I want people to stay tuned till we
get to it. I really enjoyed it from both an
entertainment perspective and for character development. Jericho's music skills are obvious,

(01:33:34):
but what a performance by him, Jeff, I'm waiting for
their Christmas album. The last few weeks we've seen the
two loud mouse Goo toe to toe with their cheeky banter.
Both the veteran and the young upstart must have a
plan in mind. While some may think the whole show
tune is two over the top, their implied motivations for
doing so makes sense. Jericho wants to remain the demo
god and wants to use the young and talented mgeff
to help boost his personal ratings. MJF will do what

(01:33:56):
Jericho wants to get closer to the Inner Circle, whether
to become a member or take over. My only wish
is that their motivations were clear to the audience, But
otherwise the musical number makes sense for two wrestlers who
want to showcase their other talents. Love to hear what
you think about the positive spin on this LSD trip
of a sequence. Amazing work and godspeed, so I ran
a Twitter poll on this very segment from last night's show.

(01:34:23):
Six hundred votes, forty six percent say wonderful and hilarious,
twenty four percent say embarrassingly bad polarizing. But among those
who has strong feelings way more positive than negative. The
other middle thirty percent split exactly evenly fifteen percent, fifteen
percent said not for me, and fifteen percent said mildly amusing,
so polarizing. One fourth year audience really really really didn't

(01:34:48):
like it, but forty six percent really really liked it.
Where are you on this, Jason?

Speaker 2 (01:34:54):
Part of me? I need to see the follow up.
I want to see how this is presented. I want it.
Is this something that the character openly talk about having done.
Is this something that we saw that is going to
be forgotten? And no other character apparently saw it? You know?
What is this? And if it is, well, now they're
aware of it. They did it, Santana Ortiz asking what

(01:35:16):
the hell were you two doing? You know something like that? Okay? Otherwise,
if this is more cinematic style stuff and it's just
we're supposed to enjoy it, but then forget it ever happened, No,
so I mean I don't. It's not for me. This
is not the authentic pro wrestling I was thinking of
when they sent out that press release its Jericho, So

(01:35:41):
there is something about it that his charm where more
people are going to accept this, because part of me
is like, if WWE did this, pick any two characters,
a lot of the people who really like this would
be crapping all over it. I have no doubt in
my mind. But then I thought, well, what if it
was Jericho in WWE doing this? Was, say Kevin Ellen,
there's something about Jericho in this charm or it just

(01:36:03):
works with people, just unconventional things seem to really click
with people. He is able to get away with it.
So no, it's definitely not for me. It's not what
I'm looking for out of pro wrestling. But if it's
framed as something we were supposed to see, that everybody saw,
and it's like acknowledge that these two clowns, these two heels,

(01:36:23):
did this musical number together and it's talked about, well,
that's a lot better to me than I was just
done cutesie and all for I guess just because they
wanted to do it and push the envelope and see
what they could get away with and ruffle feathers and
get some headlines out of it. I mean, to me,
it was very self indulgent. But if it's framed as
their characters being self indulgent, great, I just worry it's

(01:36:47):
not that it's again, you know, if you have to
turn your brain off, because apparently we the viewers at home,
are the only people who could see this, and it's
not even going to be acknowledged by Jericho and MJF.
Is something their characters actually did.

Speaker 1 (01:37:03):
That's the thing Tony Kahan, you know, told me just
over a year ago on the eve of Dynamite's debut,
we don't want invisible cameras. Everything's going to be shot
documentary style. They create a reason for cameras to be there.
You know. It's like if, yeah, so this violates that
in the sense that, okay, is this a Jericho MJFF

(01:37:25):
production and the steak dinner was all a setup and
they had the dancers ready behind the curtain and they
hired a waitress. But yet I'm also believing Jericho thinks
MJFF's being kind of a jerk to the waitress by
getting her name wrong. And so I just I don't
know the narrative context for it. And that's fine if
you just don't want to have consistent narrative context, Like

(01:37:47):
we're supposed to believe Jeracho really thought m Jeff was
being rude to the server and they really were gonna
have a steak dinner. But we're also supposed to believe
there were dancers behind a curtain and they were all
ready to go, and so am I now to believe? No,
this was all a Jericho MJFF production. They said, let's
put on a show. It'll make us bigger stars, it'll
be fun. But maybe the staked in or ordering got

(01:38:09):
a little lot of handoff script, but they still went
into their dance routeine like I like to have. I
like something to be grounded where I can explain how
it happened and what you know, is it reality or
was it all fiction? And so a lot of it
is to follow up, and I just don't know that
those questions are being asked or even thought to be asked,

(01:38:32):
and that frustrates me because I like there to be,
you know, things to be grounded in, you know, because
I don't mind if Jericho and MGF put on a
skit and record it and then aw air is it
and it's it's like and it was purely for entertainment,
but I don't want to feel like they haven't thought
through whether this was supposed to be impromptu at the
beginning and unscripted, but then somehow they did a magical

(01:38:53):
dancer team, so that bugs me a little bit, but
people did reluctantly. Like Zach in Texas emailed, he said,
I know I probably should have hated the Jericho MGF skit,
but I couldn't help but laugh all the way through it.
It probably helped that they didn't do any comedy before it,
and Jericho and MJF work so well together, and I
think that's that's kind of where I was like. I

(01:39:14):
was like, Okay, this doesn't look like a real restaurant,
but that's fine. I can, you know, deal with that
if if they go somewhere with this, and then when
they stood up to dance, I'm like, what the what
is going on here? And then I'm like, Okay, this
is really dumb. I'm not going to finish that word
because I'm actually starting to think this is kind of
entertaining and I'm compelled to watch. I mean, like, I

(01:39:37):
went through this whole roller coast, roller coaster of different emotions,
and I always want to watch wrestling open minded. You know,
I don't want to just decide this is dumb if
I don't know where it's going or what audience they're
going for, even if it doesn't work for me. But
if I'm entertained by something and I think it's well done,
then I have to evaluate it on a different level,
which is, okay, it was done, well done in entertaining,

(01:39:58):
but did it serve a purpose? Is it purposeful? Does
it have is it a means to an ends? And
that's what you're getting at, is what is the means
to the ends? And if it is just Jericho's going
to be creative and you got to tune in to
see what he's gonna come up with next, I mean,
that's not all together invalid, but it's definitely ideal if
it fits within a more grouded narrative context that then

(01:40:20):
leads to matches that people want to pay to see,
And that I think is where the jury is still
out on this.

Speaker 2 (01:40:25):
Yeah, a little alarming that I don't believe the broadcast
team acknowledged it.

Speaker 1 (01:40:31):
Oh no, they did, because they did well only quickly,
because Shavanni said, I don't really know what to say
about what we just saw and that was it.

Speaker 2 (01:40:41):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:40:42):
Yeah, So and then Ross and Xcalber did not comment,
which you know, Ross commented on Tony Shavanni saying behoove,
but he did not comment on Jericho and MJF. So
I don't know if we're going to get a lot
more out of them, But there was an acknowledgment by
Shavanni that he saw it.

Speaker 2 (01:40:59):
Now I guess we have to wait until next week
because that Shavani comment could easily be I don't know
what we just saw, and he's referring to the steak
dinner and not the song and dance number. So yeah,
I think the follow up is the key here. I
hate to be wishy washy on it, but I do
think that is that's the key. And if it's nope,

(01:41:22):
no one's going to talk about this. And it was
just kind of done as a stunt. Yeah, again, not
for me, but I know there's an audience out there
that digs it. I just I hope they're going to
be fair about it, because again, I do think that
if this happened in WWE, a lot of those same
people would be losing their minds talking about how stupid
it was.

Speaker 1 (01:41:39):
All you saw Zax emailed up move us into another category.
Here he says, this is an outstanding episode of Dynamite.
They successfully sold me on the I quit match with
three absolutely fire promos. John Moxy and eighty Kingston are
going to try to kill each other at full gear.
I'm also all in on full blowing, grandiose egomaniac Kenny Omega.
That ridiculous list of accolades Omega, Justin roberts Ree popped

(01:42:01):
me as big as did him not having time for
Sonny Kiss to the point where he squashed him in
thirty seconds and penton Phoenix fill the show. That match
is unbelievable, and I think he under sold it a
bit in a report. I've never seen a Canadian Destroyer
executed that quickly.

Speaker 2 (01:42:13):
I think you need to look up their other matches.

Speaker 1 (01:42:16):
Yes, and they said Britt Baker has looked great since
she returned. I came out of the main event thinking
I've been sleeping on John Silver and Alex Reynolds. Those
two are really good. So a lot of things there
that we didn't talk about early on in our Dynamite conversation.
First of all, is it confirmed that Kenny Omega is
in on the joke of the grandiose, egomaniac out of control.
I think so Jason. But they're so used to having

(01:42:39):
praise gushed upon them and so many different you know that,
I just wonder if this wasn't a straightforward yes, I'm
a heel, but I'm also this was more just to
list the resume of what a big star I am,
So should I disregard that entirely as a possibility. And
of course Kenny's in on this as being in on
the joke, and it's almost a self aware mocking of

(01:42:59):
how worshiped and gushing the praise of him can be sometimes, So.

Speaker 2 (01:43:04):
I do think he's in on the joke, but there
is that's just small, slivery gun, But maybe not. But
I'm gonna go with yes, he's in on the joke.

Speaker 1 (01:43:13):
Yeah.

Speaker 10 (01:43:20):
I'm Kelly Wells, host of the seven Star podcast, the
new ongoing Torch show covering the world of New Japan
pro wrestling. We'll drop new episodes as major shows and
noteworthy events dictate.

Speaker 2 (01:43:32):
And I'm Chris Lansdowe.

Speaker 11 (01:43:34):
Join us as we covered the ever changing landscape of
New Japan as they navigate an era with no lack
of talent, but I really need to create some new stars.
You can stream the new seven Stop podcast now from
Pro Wrestling Talk.

Speaker 1 (01:44:01):
So and the thing with Kenny is, whatever they're doing
with him, I want the big star presentation. I want
Kenny to be framed as a big deal because he
is and he's fantastically talented. Not to join the chorus,
but he is. And I just want to see a
personality that is a you know, speaking, a big you know,
a main event framed personality that's marketable, that will expand

(01:44:23):
aw's audience and make me care more about his matches
and have him contribute to the AEW narrative that that
World Championship is a be all, end all and be
a good heel opponent for a John Moxley or a
Cody Rhodes when those worlds, when those paths cross, and
I think we know w an AW and their defenders
talk about, oh, it's part of a master plan. You

(01:44:44):
know the fact that Cody's been in his own on
his own track, and Kenny and Page have been on
his own on their own track, and Cody's did I
just already say Cody and Moxley, that's one thing has
been on his own track. I like the idea that
they are not crossing pass so that when they do
it feels like a bigger deal. It's almost an internal
brand split in that sense. It's creating a Flair Hogan

(01:45:06):
and WAWF situation from the eighties into the nineties where
it's like, oh my god, what will happened when these
two finally have a full fledged main event program against
each other. And that part of the master plan I like,
And it can be really effective because well, for obvious reasons,
it'll be novel when they cross paths and they haven't
burned through those matches. So I think that's deliberate. I

(01:45:27):
think that is the foundational framework of people saying there's
a long term plan, stick with us. The week to
week criticism, I'll stand by. But if that's the vision,
and this does end up with Kenny as a guy
with an inflated ego who just to the point of
being a turnoff, thinks he's everything that people say he

(01:45:49):
is and more, and then he goes against Moxley, who's
the reality check on that.

Speaker 2 (01:45:54):
I mean, that's money, Yeah, yeah, I think it is,
and I hope that's the direction they're taking and I
think it's the logical one because I think you can
hold Page back a little while longer Page should ultimately
be If they're going to switch the title to Kenny,
I think then it makes more sense to have Page
eventually be the guy that could unseat Kenny a little

(01:46:15):
some more way down the road. But in the short term, yeah,
I think Moxley, you know, O Mega is the match
to build up. Let's hope it's not some weird death
match thing. Again, I didn't like the show as much
as the emailer. I liked the show, but I mean
he making it seem like it was the show of
the year. I mean, hey, if that was the first
time I saw pent in Phoenix, I don't know if

(01:46:36):
it was for him or not. Yeah, it was good,
but it wasn't the first time I've seen those two,
and I know they're capable of more. And they only
got fourteen minutes. There was a commercial break in there.
I didn't even notice, but Phoenix apparently suffered an injury
during the match. It looked like he was fine by
the way he was able to finish things up, and
then you know, the main event of the show. It

(01:47:00):
was really predictable. Everything on last night's show. The only
match that I really didn't feel like I had a
strong feeling about was the Penta and Phoenix match because
I think he could have gone either way. But if
I really thought about it, I probably would have said, Eh,
they're going to look and go Kenny and Phoenix is
going to be the match that is going to excite
people more so, you know. But even so, like there,

(01:47:22):
everything was really predictable, and it's not that predictable is
a terrible thing, if it makes sense, So I'm not
even complaining about that. But I just don't think it
was this all time great show. I thought it was good.
I thought it was, you know, just a notch better
than NXT, But it's aside from the musical bit, I
don't know there's gonna be much about that show that

(01:47:43):
I actually remember three weeks from now.

Speaker 1 (01:47:45):
Yeah, I liked it more than you did, you know,
for sure. But I agree with your just kind of
individual critiques of it. He mentioned John Silver and Alex Reynolds.
Are you a fan of Silvers like slightly taller hornswoggle act?

Speaker 2 (01:48:05):
So I do think they're a hell of a team
in the ring, But yeah, it sounds like he kind
of found his humorous personality on being the elite, and
so I haven't seen what he's been doing there, but
I've noticed that he's been a little more wild and
crazy in some of his acting on Dynamite. And I mean,

(01:48:25):
you got to do something if you of those guys,
you're in a tag division that's absolutely loaded. And yeah,
I don't know if this is it though, I mean
it feels a little well, it's way too over the top.

Speaker 1 (01:48:41):
Yes, JB from Detroit is less high than Zach. On
the show, he says, does it seem to you like
to build a fol gear is incredibly rushed with only
two Dynamites to go before the pay per view, it
seems like the AW Title Tournament Finals almost has to
have the finals of Hangman versus Kenny to make it
an even adequate pay per view. The build for Sammy
and Matt already in the bucks FTR and Mox and

(01:49:01):
Kingston have all been very weird in my opinion. Also,
it seems kind of about left field of Darby Allen challenge
for the TNT tititle lot of nowhere. That seems fine
for a random weekly Dynamite match, but I'm not sure
we can get for there for Full Gear in just
two weeks. Also have Max's title feuds this year felt
extremely underwhelming to you. I understand we're in the middle
of a pandemic, but I don't think AW can afford
to phone in all their AW title matches on pay
per view until we can have full crowds back without

(01:49:23):
losing some good will. So a lot there, Jason just
pluck a couple things out just over a concept. I
think with two shows to go, we're fine in terms
of getting to Full Gear.

Speaker 2 (01:49:33):
Yeah, they Hey Bucks and FTR is a match that
is weird as the build has been, and as odd
as it is that they're two heeled team, people still
want to see it. I think people are going to
want to see presumably Cody and Darby Allen again. I
look forward to that.

Speaker 1 (01:49:47):
That doesn't feel out of nowhere to me either. No,
because Cody takes on random people don't be like this
deeply personal feud and Darby got to win and they
kind of explain that and he's in that semi top tier.

Speaker 2 (01:50:00):
But you know what, I'm ready for Cody to be
done with this whole Open Challenge and just quick feuds
Cody's great when he can sink his teeth into a program,
and we're not getting that Cody now, and it's been
a while since we have. We think back to him
and Nick all this, him and his brother, him and
Shaun Spears. Those were really good. You know, there was

(01:50:21):
really good storytelling in those programs. It just isn't existing
now because of the approach that they're taking with the
open challenges and things. And I do miss even the
story that they seem to be telling with Brody Lee
that they just my god, did they rush through that.
That's the one that I just don't get here, that
awesome three minute destruction of Cody by Brody Lee and

(01:50:42):
he wins the title and then Cody just comes back
and takes it back like that's it. Where's the long chase,
where's you know, take me on a journey. I don't
know why they felt compelled to do that, But hitting
back to the card, is it a little weird that
they had Kingston pass out to Moxley Finisher? Yeah? I mean,
I know they're trying to set up that I quit thing,

(01:51:04):
but their promos are so damn good that they're gonna
sell me on that Mac sh I'm fine with it
doesn't feel necessarily a pay per view made event worthy,
but when you surround it with some of those other
matches that that he mentioned, it's fine. It really is.
And if they don't want to, if they want to
go with the Bucks and FTR and a main event
on this show, I'd be cool with that. My only

(01:51:27):
concern about Moxley and Kingston is that they're just going
to go absolutely ape shit and just do all the
deathmatch nonsense. And I hope that's not the plan. They
don't need to, but it seems like that's something Moxley
tries to get out of his system every once in
a while.

Speaker 1 (01:51:44):
A Shae from Brooklyn, regarding Max and Kingston said, the
build up has already been amazing amount opinion. I really
look forward to seeing these guys as promos. I don't
know if anyone sounds more authentic than these two. On
the MIC, they one hundred percent sold me on the match.
I was already sold, but tonight helped Mike build my
excitement for I assume will be a brutal I quit match.
He also says, I feel like everything mattered on this
episode of Dynamite. I realized part of the fun of

(01:52:04):
the show is just seeing what new creative segment will
get each week. They take chances, and I suspect the
musical number will be remembered for years to come. I
ended up loving it. The feud has a different approach
all along, and I love how different it is. Their
chemistry is great. So yeah, just as far as Moxley
and Kingston goes, I mean, it doesn't feel like a
few that should be co headlinering or headlining a pay
per view, and yet this is an ensemble pay per view.

(01:52:26):
It's not their signature pay per view, and the promos
are so good, and there's this career long backstory, and
I think it can, you know, lead to other things
with Kingston managing you know, I like the idea of
Kingston managing Pentagon Junior or you know, managing the word
but whatever against Moxley next, And I'm fine. I think,

(01:52:46):
like I said, they're not putting their top stars against
each other. They're really saying to the audience, we're gonna
wait on those so you're gonna it's rare, you're gonna
see it, you know, one of our two true top
guys against another. We're going to try to save those
and build up other people. And I respect that, and
I think it's a worthy challenge, and I think they're
largely pulling it off. And so to me, letting Moxley

(01:53:09):
build up his own his own track record of what
he's doing separate from Kenny and Cody in page, I'm
fine with that. And so Kingston is an unexpected surprise
that I think, because of their promos and their backstory,
just hits the threshold of being worth a rematch on
pay per view.

Speaker 2 (01:53:28):
Yeah, I'm fine with that match. I look forward to it.
By the way, whatever happened, here's that story the last
pay per view where Kenny gave the Young Bucks the
ultimatum before he got into the suv. Have they ever
talked about that since?

Speaker 1 (01:53:44):
What was the ultimatum? I've even forgotten.

Speaker 2 (01:53:46):
So they stormed out of the building with the Bucks
and hot pursuit.

Speaker 1 (01:53:50):
Yeah yep.

Speaker 2 (01:53:51):
Yeah, and then nothing yep.

Speaker 1 (01:53:53):
And that's the thing when we, you know, thank you
for bringing that up, Because when we, you know, talk
about the people talk about the masterful long term planning
and everything is done for a reason. There's a lot
of times where I watch and I'm like, do they
like even I mean just as a smaller thing, but
like the Co Cobana storyline just sort of was dormant
for a while. Like there's these things that sort of
start up and then they might they might get followed
up on BTE or Dark maybe not. And last Night show,

(01:54:14):
one thing I liked about it is that there was
a density to the storylines that got attention. But I
do feel like there's things that they do and then
do to injury or a change of mind or forgetfulness
or a lack of discipline, don't get followed up on.
And yeah, that happens with that happens. It seems to
happen over the full year, often enough that it make

(01:54:37):
I feel a little less invested in paying attention to
the details. And then there's other times they sort of
redeem themselves in other ways. I'm like, Okay, I'll still
invest myself in details even if the payoff is one
hundred percent.

Speaker 2 (01:54:47):
Sure. Yeah, I mean I do wish they were I
know they love to have their long term storytelling and
that's great. I appreciate that, but I think you can
also have some stories that play it a little sooner.
You can have a mix you know, you can have
a you can have some long term stories at play,
but you can also pay off some other ones. It
just feels like everything long term, long term, and that's

(01:55:08):
the excuse for everything they do, which like, can we
get to it? You know, how long do we have
to wait for some of these things?

Speaker 1 (01:55:14):
Yeah, give yourself a reason to look forward to. Go
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(01:55:34):
per view roundtable reviews from the Torch staff, exclusive feature
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(01:55:56):
Wrestling Torch Newsletter paper copy edition. In the year twenty
twenty two, you can get a full year of home
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an eight week trial subscription, pw toorch dot com slash
paper copy all right, final topic for me, Bone for Glory.

(01:56:20):
Is this a show people should check out if they
haven't been paying close attention to impact with the new
mix and names that have been injected. Was it was
there last show Slammer Versary where everyone showed up?

Speaker 2 (01:56:29):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (01:56:29):
Yeah, so I mean is it?

Speaker 7 (01:56:33):
Is it?

Speaker 1 (01:56:33):
Have they done a good job of that talent? And
people should check it out even if they're not. You know,
every week in pack viewers with so much out there competition.

Speaker 2 (01:56:39):
Was you know, it's really hard for me to tell people, Yeah,
spend forty dollars to watch almost anything. I mean, you know,
AW is going to be charging the same price. I
think the AW shows, with the exception of the last one.
I wasn't a big fan of the last AW show,
they've proven to be worth the investment or impact. It's

(01:57:02):
they suffer from the lack of atmosphere. There's not a
crowd present, there's no spectator wrestlers. It's not a bad product.
It's like you, if this show appeals to you, I'm
not discouraging anyone because I think it'll be a fine show.
Do I think it's going to be a forty dollars
good show? No, No, I think there'll be some good match.

(01:57:22):
If you've been watching the show, I think you have
to be satisfied with the story they've told setting up
Eric Young and Rich swand they've done a nice job
with that. If you're somebody on the outside who isn't
paying attention, probably going, that's the bound for.

Speaker 1 (01:57:32):
Glory main event exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:57:34):
Yeah. Yeah. So, and then now they're drifting back into
interrogender wrestling again. It's one of those things some people
love it and I don't hate it. They did a
good job with Sammy Kaylin and Tessa Blanchard. I was
into that, but now that they're drifting back into it,
I can't say that it excites me. It's like, oh
this again, Okay, Jordan Grace is competing in the X
Division six way scramble match, and then you have women

(01:57:57):
in the Battle Royal with men, and there's just there's
a quirkiness to this company. The Jordan graysling isn't quirky,
but they just they They also have their taste for
weird quirkiness, such as demon weddings, which we're getting on
next week's Impact Wrestling. Mm hmm.

Speaker 1 (01:58:14):
Yeah, I think you know, you look at the the
World TA Team title match and it's a you know,
it's a four way. I'd rather have, you know, two
on two. But I mean there is some there's some
good star power with talent, not just one or the other,
like Ken Shamrock has star power, but you know, and
and he was talented. But it's like, yeah, you're not
going to tune into see a great match with him obviously, right,

(01:58:38):
but the Motor City machine Guns and Gallows and Anderson
are in one of the top matches and.

Speaker 2 (01:58:46):
Those those two right there, that's it.

Speaker 1 (01:58:48):
That's the thing. Yeah, and nothing, you know, it's the
North are fine, and and Fulton are fine. But yeah,
I just you know, it feels like we got to
figure out a way to get everybody on the card.
And you know, same thing with it. It's just like
the you know, when you think of TNA or you
think of him, you think ex Division match with way
too many people in it, doing a spot fest and
and that you know, they're they're living up to that tradition,
and you know, I'd rather have it be a focused

(01:59:09):
one on one match and not hav the intergender aspect.
So yeah, but Eric Young, Rich Swan, machine Guns, Anderson
and Gallows, Heath Slater, Rhino, Tommy Dramer, Ken Shamrock, EC three,
I mean there is if there's enough there, you know,
in terms of recognizable names who have been in front

(01:59:30):
of on larger stages where it's like they have enough
to work with. And I do think they've done a
nice job getting The thing about impact that's nice is
that they do get a lot out of who they
have and they don't have a bunch of rules built
in that, you know, that define people down. It's like,
I think they work hard to define people up. And
you know, Young is super talented and rich Swan is

(01:59:51):
super talented. So you know, if you tell a good story,
I'll buy in. You know, if you frame them as
a big deal and they're talented and you tell a
good story, I don't really care. You know where they've
been placed in the past on other cards. So yeah,
I just I think they've you know, with my with
my caveats and qualified compliments, I think overall, you know,
they've put they've showed too many people out of the show.

(02:00:11):
But I know it's about for glory and everybody wants
to be on the biggest show of the year. Whatever.
But besides that, you know, I mean, I think them
go job. What do you think about what EC three
has done to rebuild and kind of represent himself.

Speaker 2 (02:00:21):
You know, It's funny because I'm seeing him in Ring
of Honor two now and an impact Like at first
I liked it, and the more goes on, it just
feels a little tired and repetitive, like, Okay, control your narrative,
we get it, even though I really don't like, Okay,
that's what you want us to do. Control your own narrative. Great,
And then he's feuding with Moose and they're having weird

(02:00:44):
only in Impact moments where Moose goes to visit his
colleague or his high school football coach who's somehow been
possessed by Easy three apparently and is delivering weird messages
from EC three and then snapping out of it. There's like,
I think that the Easy three promos are really well delivered.
I think he's put a lot of thought into this.

(02:01:04):
I like that he is taking a chance and doing
something different, but there's too many times where it feels
a little too different, like a little two out there,
like the fight on the bridge. We needed a cinematic
wet its impacts. We have to put a musical score
to everything. And he throws the Impact title belt the
week before over the off the side of the bridge.
You're like, we're done with that. Very next week he

(02:01:26):
just got in his hand again, and move shows up
to fight him. For what's happening. We're in our wage.
She's already shown up, delivered the promo, and then had
a little backstage thing to set up a six man
tag match already. It just feels like the Impact thing
is developed too slowly and there's not enough with substance
there to justify dragging it out as long as they have,

(02:01:48):
Like just get to the moose, an easy three match
so we can move forward, please.

Speaker 1 (02:01:53):
I feel like we're going to look back at twenty
twenty as the year that pro wrestling presentation changed such
a big way because it had to without the crowds
and the traditional tapings and live events and I.

Speaker 2 (02:02:05):
And because there's some people who don't understand how pro
wrestling works and they can't wait to try to change things.

Speaker 1 (02:02:09):
They don't understand that's the thing. And so I wonder,
like how much of this was You've given permission to
people who you just described to break from the normal traditions,
to turn this into you know, more sketch comedy and
cinematic other worldly things, and I am curious how much
of it sticks. But by the time we get to
twenty twenty two to twenty twenty three, you know, how

(02:02:31):
much of this carries over or is there a bounce
back to the fundamentals. I don't know the answer to it,
you know. I mean, you know, when we see Jericho
and m Jeff doing what they did last night, it's
not that they you know, I mean Undertaker there was
a there was a camera in Undertaker's casket, you know,
decades ago. I mean, you know, Papa Shango was doing voodoo.

(02:02:51):
You know, there's been weird stuff and some of.

Speaker 2 (02:02:53):
The people who loved last night suddenly just you know,
crept all over that stuff for years.

Speaker 1 (02:02:58):
Uh yes, I know, double standards all over. So yeah,
I just I leave you with that thought. I'm curious
to see what effect twenty twenty has in the long
run and how pro wrestling is changed forever, or this
is more of a blip, or it's sort of a blend,
and I don't.

Speaker 2 (02:03:15):
Know, let's just hope we get through twenty twenty. I
don't rule in anything at this point, but yeah, I
know what you're saying.

Speaker 1 (02:03:21):
Well, we can roll out the Vikings winning a Super Bowl.

Speaker 2 (02:03:24):
Well that's for sure. Yeah, the Fighter sales on. They're
already trading people and the Hunters out for the year.
They're admitting now, and I'm all for it. Like they're
not that bad of a team, like I know their
record says they are, but I mean, realistically, this team
is going to be a lot better next year because
they have three really young defensive backs who had no preseason,

(02:03:45):
no real training camp. You lose Hunter, you lose Bar
the defense and you don't get to play the big
free agent nose tackle that you brought in. The defense
is gonna be much better next year. And yes, Kirk
Cousins is a dope and he has some really bad moments,
but offensively not bad football team. So I look forward

(02:04:06):
to next year already, especially if we get the juicy
fourth place schedule.

Speaker 1 (02:04:11):
Yeah, once we don't have an election to distract us
the record, we'll sink in a little more. We'll see,
maybe it won't matter at all. By then, well, we'll
see where we are in a couple of weeks here, Jason,
always a pleasure, Thank you, and we'll talk to you
in a few weeks. Sounds wonderful. I enjoyed it all right.

(02:04:47):
Invite you to email the show with feedback or questions
or comments. That email address is Wade Keller Podcast at
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Speaker 2 (02:05:10):
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(02:05:31):
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add a few comments about what you like about the
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Speaker 12 (02:07:45):
In twenty twelve, NXT transitioned into the developmental system and
ultimately the brand you see today. On the Torch VIP
podcast NXT Eight Years Back, we'll be taking a weekly
look at this page in NXT's early history.

Speaker 7 (02:08:00):
Join Kelly Wells and me Tom Stout from PWT Talks
NXT every Saturday as we go eight years back to
the day to track NXT's rising talents and why they
did or didn't work out exclusively for PW Torch VIP members.

Speaker 1 (02:08:14):
PW Torch VIP membership doesn't just give you add free
access to these shows and a ton of other VIP
exclusive podcasts throughout the week, but you also gain access
to our unmatched vast library of wrestling history, our contemporaneous
week to week coverage through our progressing Torch weekly newsletters
dating back to the late nineteen eighties, along with streaming
and download access to hundreds of retro radio shows from
the nineteen nineties, including some of my interviews with wrestling's

(02:08:37):
top newsmakers in the nineties, and also our podcast library
dating back to the year two thousand and three. There's
no larger, longer spanning pro wrestling podcast library than that
that comes with a PW Torch VIP membership. Now approaching
twenty years of podcasting, Go VIP and dive into our
post pay per view roundtables are covered to some of
your favorite eras of wrestling, top name long form interviews

(02:09:00):
and special format podcasts that we've done throughout the years.
Pw torch dot com slash go VIP. We have a
streamline signup for me and you can pay with PayPal
or directly with your credit card or debit card. In
one or two minutes from right now, you can be
a VIP member and diving into our library. Pw torch
dot com slash go vip

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