5 YRS AGO FLAGSHIP: Keller & Caldwell talk Reigns as a heel, McMahon's future, AEW's start, Jericho-MJF ski, more

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
We are running our second VIP sale of the year.
You want to take advantage of this. If you've thought
of going VIP or let your sublaps, had to step
away for a while, it's a good time to come back.
Pw toorch dot com slash go Vip tells you about
VIP membership. There is a link to our order form
and you can choose a one month or three month
subscription and you can take nine dollars off any of

(00:22):
those three options. The coupon code is Nov. Twenty twenty
five as in November Nov twenty twenty five to take
nine dollars off. That brings a one month sub down
to three dollars and ninety nine cents. That is a
full VIP membership. That means you unlock nearly four decades
of archives, one hundreds of retro radio shows from the nineties,
two decades and more of podcasts on demand, along with

(00:44):
an ad free website, add free versions of our free podcasts,
and a bunch of VIP exclusive features, including podcasts that
are compatible with the Apple Podcast native app and many
other Android and iobs apps, and also the new Wadekeller
news bulletins that come in three formats, a PDF that's
great on a tablet or a laptop screen, an all
text version which is great to read on your phone,
and a podcast version. These run about sixteen minutes in

(01:06):
terms of podcast length, and it is a new feature.
I'm running two, three four times a week. I'm going
to try to increase that as my schedule adjust to
this new feature. So check it out. PW Torch dot
com slash go VIP coupon code n OV twenty twenty
five to take nine dollars off a one month, three
month or one year sub Now. PW Torch and Spreaker

(01:39):
bring you the Wade Killer Pro Wrestling podcast five years ago.
This week on the flag Ship, James Caldwell, former PW
Toorge assistant editor, joined me to catch up. We reunited,
caught up on what he had been doing. We had
podcasted together in more than four years. That means I
can't believe it's been nine years since he left The Torch.

(02:01):
James talks about his decision to leave The Torch, how
he's kept up with pro wrestling since, and what it's
like shopping for a job when your resume said your
last job was working for a Pro Wrestling newsletter, website,
and podcast company. We also talked about James's thoughts on
changes in the industry since he was immersed in it,
covering at full time through twenty sixteen, including his impressions
of Roman Rangs as a heel, the big surprise rise

(02:22):
of aw over the prior year, Chris Jericho, and MGF skit.
What John Cena's legacy is likely to be interesting, What
happens next with visick Man. Oh if we only knew anyway?
Lots of fun topics here on a special holiday week
five years ago Flagship Flashback. On Wednesday, November twenty sixth,
twenty twenty five, here on the Waight Keller Pro Wrestling
podcast all Right, for a special Thanksgiving edition of the

(02:48):
Weight Keller prosing Podcast Flagship, I am joined by an
old friend and colleague, former Pro Wrestling Torch assistant editor,
James Caldwell. James, somebody asked about you last I think
it was last week a caller and uh, and I
was like, what'd be kind of cool to do on
Thanksgiving for a show? And I was like, let's catch
up with James, so reached out to you and look

(03:09):
here you are.

Speaker 2 (03:11):
Well thanks for having me back, waid, it's been a
little bit more than four years. Can you believe that?

Speaker 1 (03:17):
Yeah, I mean I kind of do. A lot's happened,
but at the same time, it has that it feels
just like yesterday. I think it was. I started realizing
in some of my work that it was like five
years ago that we launched the new website, you know,
the new design, the overhaul, and I remember how excited
you were about that. I was like, oh, okay, well,
I know it's been less than five years of James
has gone. It was about a year or so later,

(03:38):
and then here we are.

Speaker 2 (03:41):
I know, it's it's amazing, you know. And I saw
that you also relaunched a new design to the website.
I checked out the Oh yeah, it's funny. I actually
checked out the website over the weekend and I said, oh,
there's new design, new branding, a little bit slightly variation
of the colors, and and and then you emailed me
a couple a day or two ago, and here we

(04:03):
are having a conversation and it just feels like all
the times again.

Speaker 1 (04:07):
So for people who aren't familiar, because we've got some
new people, just give a little brief background on kind
of your journey through the torch hierarchy, so to speak
to the assistant editorship. And then we'll reflect a little
bit on where things were versus where they are now
because you're still keeping a peripheral eye on the industry

(04:29):
but just don't have the time to follow it as
closely and as sometimes happens when something is your job,
it's hard to then turn it back into a hobby.
But we'll talk about that process too with you. And
then also, I know you attended the Role Rumble earlier
this year and you've watched some key segments over the
past week that I want to talk to you about.
So a lot of cool things to talk about, but

(04:49):
first just kind of talk about the time stamps and
in the journey around so people kind of know who
you are and what you did with the torch exactly.

Speaker 2 (04:57):
Yeah, I was thinking about it earlier. I'm sure there's
so many people like, who's this guy? But as well
as well as the old faithful that tuned into the
live cast when I hosted with you know, Greg Parks
and all my my my friends from the wrestling days
and Sean Radikin and all those.

Speaker 1 (05:15):
Guys meal for the after shows, Pat.

Speaker 2 (05:18):
McNeil, Bruce Mitchell occasional occasional chat with Bruce you know.
Uh yeah, So I started where are we going to
go back to? You know, I started contributing. I was
a volunteer in mid two thousands, so two thousand and three,
two thousand and four, I was in college and just started,
you know, connecting with you Wade and contributing an article

(05:39):
or two here and there. Turn into you know, being
in California time. I was in college in California, I
was able to stay up later that most people would
started where I would help you out with the newsletter,
kind of help edit when you're putting together newsletter late
at night and you need some just another set of
eyes on content. And I was like, well, hey, I'm

(05:59):
I'm away and I'm over here in California where we're
behind on the time. So I was able to help
out with that, which then led to you bring me
on as a part time columnist. And I always remember
July two thousand and five we did the thirty one
Days of Caldwell, Yes, and thirty one straight blogs. Yeah

(06:20):
one time.

Speaker 1 (06:20):
Yes, that was like.

Speaker 2 (06:22):
It's been fifteen years since that.

Speaker 1 (06:26):
Wow, I mean like it being four years since you
were full time doesn't seem that seems about right, But
that being fifteen years ago feels crazy.

Speaker 2 (06:37):
It's amazing. I mean, yeah, I don't know. Sometimes I
just look back at timelines and it just blow us
my mind, like, wow, that was fifteen years ago. And
see I saw it was part time columnists and advanced
up the ranks, and it was October of two thousand
and eight. It's when you brought me on as full
time assistant editor. And so I left my post call

(07:00):
college real estate job and joined Torch full time as
assist netter and just hit the ground running, pumping out content,
covering as many wrestling shows as possible, going to tons
of shows, road trips on occasion, which I forgot. One
thing in between that was that you and I met

(07:20):
in person. Yeh, in California. You filmed the was The
Ultimate Insiders, The.

Speaker 1 (07:26):
Was It the Heart the Hardy's Interview. Yeah, we did this,
uh studio interview with the Hardies. We'll say we'll call.

Speaker 2 (07:33):
It man those It seems so long ago, but yeah,
that was That was a fun time. We met in person,
got to connect and then that kind of led to them,
you know, further on becoming part time assists or becoming
full time assist netter. But yeah, so you know, we
wait and I just every day we were just covering

(07:53):
wrestling and and the latest trends and doing we you know,
we were kind of the pioneers of podcasts. Yeah, I think, yeah,
for as far as wrestling goes. You know, like I've
been following what you've been doing. Wait, and I've seen
how the podcast explosion has happened and you've taken advantage
of it, and so it's just kind of cool to
see that we were on the ground floor of that.

(08:15):
And now everybody's got a podcast, which.

Speaker 1 (08:17):
Is which is pretty cool. Yes, yes, just I think
it is. I think just was it just two days
ago that it was official everybody has a podcast.

Speaker 2 (08:26):
If you don't have one by now, then I don't
know what you're waiting for.

Speaker 1 (08:29):
Yeah, yes, So what was it like about eight years
a full time seven eight years?

Speaker 2 (08:35):
I think it was eight years, so it was October
of eight to about October sixteen. Yeah, so about eight years.

Speaker 1 (08:42):
And then you dropped. You broke the at home dress
code too often, so I had to let you go.

Speaker 2 (08:48):
I did work in my pj's about three out of
four days, you know, and then getting that two o'clock
shower and so like you're a normal person, you know,
but there, you know, there were there were times when
when I just said, I just gotta get draft, you know.

Speaker 1 (09:04):
That's how That's how I'm in the in the COVID
era here in winter, it's like sweatpants, that's it. I
do my laundry and I'm like, it's all sweatpants. And
I was like thinking, yesterday I might just put on
a pair of jeens, like for old time sake, just
to see what that was like. Yeah, yeah, yep. You

(09:24):
can support us on Patreon and get these shows with
ads and plugs removed, the weight Killer Prosing podcast, weight
Killer Prosing post shows, and the PW Torch Daily cast
throughout the week with ads and plugs remove, plus a
few bonus VIP shows throughout the month for just four
dollars and ninety nine cents a month. Check it out
patreon dot com slash PW Torch vi I P that's

(09:46):
patreon dot com slash PW Torch VIP and you can
also upgrade to other tiers and receive even more benefits
through Patreon. So when you when you left the torch
and you've gone on and done some other things, you
can get into that or not. You know, yeah, a

(10:08):
big yo. But how did it feel to suddenly not
like be obligated to watch everything, follow everything, be in
the news cycle? Like was it? Because you know, some
people like their lifelong fans and they just think, well,
you know that I can never not not watch Rusting.
But you know, sometimes when something is a job and
you have to do it, it it it doesn't mean

(10:28):
you don't enjoy it, but it's kind of in a
different category. And how did you adjust? Was it like, Wow,
I'm not gonna watch off for a while, Like I
just because I had to for so long, I'm gonna
not watch it and see how it feels. Like what
what did you go through as far as that goes?

Speaker 2 (10:41):
You know, it was really interesting. It was very cold Turkey.
It was you know, I wrapped up. I remember the
I think there was an NXT tournament that ended like
the day before I was going to like wrap up,
like it was like the Wednesday before was going to
finish like on a Friday or something, and that tournament ended,
and it felt like Okay, this is the end. And

(11:05):
I knew that I didn't have another job lined up.
It was just that I knew that it was time.
I just, you know, I remember emailing you wait and said,
I just I'm so tired. Yeah. And it wasn't just
because of Roman reigns, you know, it was just you know,
having a young family I had at the time. My
twin girls were one or two years old old. I

(11:28):
just I had just been through a lot and it
was just, you know, just a different season and they
were growing up and they were kind of crashing the
home office environment, and you know, I just I felt
so bad saying, you know, no, no, Dad, he's got
to work and so and I was just tired. There
was so much content. There's so many TV shows to cover,

(11:49):
so much news happening, and I just knew from my
own personal health, I just I just had to move on,
which was very hard. I mean it, you know, I
mean way, you have done so much much for my
career and you invested so much in me, and it
was like the most painful email I had ever I've
ever sent, was wait, I just I can't do it anymore.

Speaker 1 (12:08):
I know you well enough to know the anguish when
you hit send, and the anxiety that you felt after
hitting send and then waiting to hear back, like I
know how to and you know, so much is life
and I was done by email or messaging, you know,
and all that, and you know, what's a long distance.
You're You're in Houston and I'm up in the Saint
Paul market, So it's like, there's no way to really

(12:28):
do that in person. So I could just I knew
because I like know you well enough to know you're like,
oh and you click send? How did that feel?

Speaker 2 (12:37):
It was exactly if you described so much anxiety. I
rewrote the email like seven times, yeah, you know, because
I was like, man, like I don't know how to
word this. I I it was so difficult, you know,
because like do I really want to do this? Am
I really ready to moveocause again I didn't have another job.
It wasn't like I had another job lined up, and

(12:57):
I was like, the way I found someone else, I'm
gonna hit.

Speaker 1 (12:59):
The and you didn't, and you didn't correct me if
I'm wrong, But you didn't like hate your job or
dread your job. It just you were at a point
where like life was different than it was just a
few years earlier, and it was a grind and you
just kind of were ready to hit refresh exactly.

Speaker 2 (13:16):
I mean, that's the exact way to describe it. And
it's yeah, it was just a seasonal change, you know.

Speaker 1 (13:21):
And I mean, you know, I and by the way,
I admire you for that. I think there's a lot
of people who don't who feel what you felt and
don't have the They don't. They don't, they don't they
don't pull the trigger on it, you know. They they
they kind of stay with something that doesn't feel quite right,

(13:41):
and you know, there are seasons and it's absolutely fine
to move on and take a chance as you did,
you know. I mean, it's it's nothing to feel bad
about it. In fact, I think you should be proud
of the fact that you're, like if it just doesn't
quite feel right, because life changed in other ways and
you're you know, kind of excited to see what's around
the corner. That that again, I think it's a good example.

Speaker 3 (14:02):
You a good example.

Speaker 2 (14:04):
Yeah, And i'll i'll I'll reference this email I had
with a source about a year before I left, and
he he was talking about his own career journey and
he was telling me how like there were times where
he wished that he would have done a seasonal change,
but he didn't think that his skills would translate outside

(14:24):
of wrestling. It was the bubble mentality of like, oh,
I can only do what I'm good at in wrestling,
or you know, no one else outside of wrestle will
take me seriously. And so that kind of stuck with me.
And you know, he was advanced on his career and
I'm like, well, if I'm going to make a change,
I've got to do it now and see what else

(14:46):
is out there. You know, I didn't know what else
was out there as far as how my skills would translate.
I mean, the wade. You invested so much of me
into developing my writing skills, my editing skills, content management skills,
all that sort of thing, and I just didn't know
if it would train. I had no idea. And that
was that email conversation was playing in my head of like,
do my skills translate outside of wrestling? And I think

(15:08):
that's such a challenge for so many people in wrestling,
is you know, am I only as good as what
I can do in the wrestling business? And I think
that's why I end up with so many lifers in wrestling,
which is fine. It's just that I think that there's
this mentality of like, this is the only thing I'm
good at or the only thing I can do. And

(15:29):
I kind of wanted to test and see if that
wasn't true, if what I had, what I developed under
your leadership, could translate to, you know, a job outside
of wrestling. And it did. And it took a while.
I didn't have a job for I didn't I didn't
have a full time job for about four months. I
was doing some freelance writing and reporting and different things,

(15:52):
and then I connected with a marketing agency here in Houston,
and you know, it was just it was someone willing
to take a chance on me, you know, not looking
at the last thing of my resume. The last thing
on my resume is you know, it's just an editor
for a prorescing magazine. And so many people looked at

(16:15):
them and said, I don't know what that is, or yeah,
like what what is that? You know? And I'd explained
in an interview and they just sort of like, eh,
I just kind of balked at it. But one agency,
and our CEO's name is Terry. She's amazing, and she
she said, you know, I'm I think your skills can translate.
And it was like wow, like someone actually, you know,

(16:37):
believed in me, kind of like how you did when
I was a part time columns in college. And so
I've been here for four years now, you know, I've
been part time or kind of freelance, part time in
now full time for four years total with a marketing
agency and like everything that I learned that the Torch
has helped me so much and what I do now,

(17:00):
I mean I'm the first I was a copywriter and
now I'm the content manager moving toward a directorship position.

Speaker 4 (17:08):
But you know, just all the content tricks of the
trade that I learned, just writing and editing and just
coming up with a schedule of you know, content for
our clients, planning all that kind of stuff has really
paid off.

Speaker 2 (17:25):
And and yes, my skills do translate. I can safely
say that, yeah, that's good.

Speaker 5 (17:33):
Need an extra dose of positivity in your wrestling podcasts?
Will come join me Alan fourrel over in the Progress
Paradise at Pine Torch VIP as we ask on the
bright side of wrestling and focus on some of the
great matches and shows from around the world, be it
the US, Japan, Europe or Mexico. There's always a place

(17:53):
for wrestlings past and the paradise too, and we've done
fun historical shows such as the We Love Liger series,
Celebrate and Glorious Career of Jusian Thunderliger and our I
was there when shows where our guests will join me
to talk about a classic bout that they were in
attendance for. We love variety and you can expect lots
of it at the Progress Paradise. Detailed PW Torch VIP

(18:15):
subscription information and a list of all the VIP benefits
is available at pwrew Torch vip info dot com. And yes,
all VIP podcasts are compatible with popular podcast apps on
iPhone and Android devices, or you can stream them directly
from our ad free VIP mobile site. See you in
the Paradise.

Speaker 1 (18:42):
Well, let's talk about the sort of peripheral view you've
had of wrestling, because I'm really interested in, you know,
being as immersed in it as a fan part time
with the Torch, full time with the Torch. I'm gonna
ask an open end a question. First, I have some
specifics after that, But what seems most surprising, either because
it's the same or it's different about the industry today.

(19:05):
And you still got the Pressing Towards newsletter in the mail,
You're you're keeping up on unwrestling through that, You've watched
some stuff, you went to the World Rumba, like I
said earlier this year, But what jumps out is maybe
most surprising that it's the same. And what's what's jumped
out as the biggest change that that you didn't see
coming or that you think it just qualifies as the
biggest change.

Speaker 2 (19:25):
I would say it's the emergence of ae W. Yeah,
And I never thought that anyone would be able to
not not to say that they're at the level of WB,
but that they're in the same ballpark, they're in the
same sphere. And one of the things that I think

(19:45):
about with that is, you know, I just sort of
I just look at it, like you said, from the periphery.
And so I remember Sunny. It was a couple of
Sunday nights ago during you know, I was watching football
on Fox and there was a commercial for SmackDown and
then you know, the the late Sunday night game in

(20:06):
or the Sunday afternoon game in she split it over
NBC to check out Sunday Night Football in the pregame
and there was a commercial for ae W during that.
I was like, wow, like that's significant, you know, and
that's not that's just that's not nothing. That's a big deal.
And I thought the commercial was really captivating. You know,
I've kind of seen commercials for AW, like on TNT

(20:28):
and you know, I during the NBA and that kind
of thing. But to see it, it was really captivating commercial.
It grabbed my attention. I wanted to see what was
going on, and so, you know, it just AW being
at that level is I just did not I think
anyone domestically would get there. I thought New Japan maybe

(20:50):
with their global reads, could get there. But it seems
like that hasn't happened. Correct me if I'm wrong, but
but ae W seems like, Wow, they've got they've got
something going on. So that's a big surprise. Something that
hasn't changed at all is you know, Roman Reigns is
still the guy, uh for WW, He's still the guy

(21:13):
they're building around. And you know, obviously he had the
heel turned a couple of months ago, and we'll talk
about that. But you know, that doesn't surprise me. I
could just I could just see that, you know, years
and years ago that he was he was their next Scena,
the guy they were gonna stick with at the top
guy for decades or longer. And and that has you know,

(21:34):
definitely come to pass or some ups and downs with
his health, but you know, at the end of the day,
he's the guy that they're building this company around. And
so that doesn't surprise me and hasn't really changed at
all in the last four years.

Speaker 1 (21:47):
So Roman reigns. You you watched the contract signing with
Drew mcinturn Roman from last Friday. For years hosting podcasts
the live cast, people call up and go John Zenahaturnhill,
why don't they turn John Cena Hill? And then it
turned into Roman Rains. He, you know, should he be
a heel, should it be a face. He's probably gonna
be better off as a heel. It just seems like

(22:09):
that's more it's it's a better fit for his charisma
and his demeanor and everything. And I advocated that, you know,
it's not that I didn't think Roman Rain should be
the top guy. It's that I thought he should be
the top guy as a heel. I thought he'd be
a great heel. He's turned out to be a great
heel in the last you know, just a few months here.
What did you think watching both both Drew McIntyre and

(22:32):
Roman Reigns in their current roles, Because Drew went on
quite the journey during your time covering wrestling full time too,
and now he's gotten back to where he said he
was determined to be, which is a top guy in WWE.
And I think the best fit for him is being
a top baby face. You know, he's he's bigger than
some of the heels he faces, and that's the downside.
But what did you think of the dynamic between those

(22:54):
two and seeing Roman do what? You know, a lot
of us wanted to just see John Cena do. I
don't know that John Cena would have been that there
would have been as big of a swing with Sena
from a baby face to heel in terms of improvement,
I think it would have been novel, but it wouldn't
have been as much of an improvement. But with Rains,
you know, the consensus is he's phenomenal as a heel,

(23:18):
and he didn't seem particularly sincere or invested, or effective,
or maybe just kind of two one dimension, a little
too one dimensional as a babyface, fitting kind of a
corporate mold. What jumped out to you when you watch that, Yeah,
there are a.

Speaker 2 (23:30):
Lot of different things. It was. It was better to
see Rains and a heel role. I absolutely think he's
better off than that role. I just I think he
just he lends himself more to that than as a
baby's face. He just there's just something about him that
is off putting as a character, which I think is
why he's so much better as a heel. Even when

(23:53):
y'all look at that contract sign and he was much
more composed, he was much more in tune with himself.
Seemed like I just think it's a face. He was
just forcing it, and it was so transparent that he
just could not. I guess I didn't know what he
was trying to be as a as a lead baby face.
I don't know if he was trying to be like
Sena or trying to be like somebody else, but it

(24:15):
just never felt natural, and so I think that was
frustrating for a lot of fans and myself covering it,
it was like just turn the guy heel and let's
see what happened. And I think he was much more composed.
There's still sometimes where the the the okay acting kicks
in where he just a little bit off, but I

(24:36):
think overall the demeanor was much better as a heel.
I just like his presence better. I don't know what
it is, you know, it's like hit factor. That's just
a lot better in this role, which I enjoyed. And
then Drew McIntire. You know, wait, I can't remember what
promotion he was in four years ago when I left.
I mean, he bounced around every promotion. I mean, my gosh,

(25:00):
he was just everywhere. And now you know, fast forward
to twenty twenty and you know I was at the
Royal Rumble in Houston and minimate part. I could have
passed that up. My favorite wrestling event, plaus at our,
you know, hometown ballpark, once in a lifetime event. I
just couldn't passed it up. So I went went with
some friends and you know it was just a casual

(25:21):
observer of what was going on. I wasn't you know,
I wasn't sitting there, you know, doing a play by
play and with my reporter had on. It was just
more just observing, just watching, like what, you know, what's
the reaction, how are wrestlers presenting themselves, who's over, who's
not over? And you know, it was just so fascinating
as he drew in this main event status position because

(25:44):
of the journey he'd been on in just all the
ups and downs, and now he finally solidified himself with
a big deal and it was just such a monstrous
reaction when he won, when he ran the Rumble, when
he eliminated Brock, it was you know, it was thunderous
and it really solidified him to the star. So I

(26:05):
was I was kind of disappointed to read that he
you know, he dropped the title they wanted back, you know, recently,
and I remember reading in your your recap of that
way to the newsletter was how, you know, how disappointed
it was that he didn't have a chance to have
this run in front of a live audience and from
you know, have that live crowd interaction and and to
present him as a bigger deal.

Speaker 6 (26:27):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (26:28):
As it kind of marched along because it was such
a huge thing when he won the Rumble and really
was solidified as a big star.

Speaker 1 (26:35):
Had that crowd validation that energy that you know, that
would buoy the babyface.

Speaker 2 (26:40):
Character absolutely, and gosh, I just wish he could have
had that for the the six months or seven months
that he was champed, uh or you know however that
math aded up. But man, I just I really hope
that they can recapture that when fans can get back
in the buildings and they can really test that out

(27:00):
and and maybe have a you know, part two of
his of a significant title run forum because I think
he could be that that foiled to an orton to
uh to uh reigns in some of the other top heels,
you know, just for for years to come. And so
I just I really hope that that happens for him,
because I think he deserves it.

Speaker 1 (27:21):
If you missed it earlier, just a reminder, we're running
our second VIP sale of the year. We don't do
these often. Take advantage of it now. It is a
limited time offer. Take nine dollars off a VIP subscription
a one month, three month, or one year sub It
brings the one month sub down to just three dollars
in ninety nine cents. The coupon code is n O
V twenty twenty five as in November n o V
twenty twenty five, and that takes nine dollars off. When

(27:44):
you check out on our sign up form pw torch
dot com slash go v ip gives you full details
on membership benefits and links to our sign up form.
I think one of the things that was interesting about
the UH contract signing segment is Rains played into a

(28:04):
lot of what you were talking about, and it worked
on two levels that overlap completely. You know, I'm you know,
I'm not a fan of let's let's cater to quote
the internet with insider you know, code words and messages. Oh,
I can't believe you said that. I just think I
think that never worked. And now not only doesn't it work,
but it's not novel, it's passe. It's overdone, you know,

(28:25):
and people stopped doing. But Rains did say, you know
when I when I went away, you became the top guy.
But you're the top guy only because I was away.
My analogy to that has been the Houston Rockets in
the nineties after Michael Jordan left. You know, everybody looked
at Rockets and said great team. I mean, like, definitely
deserving a championship. But of course if the bulls are
still around, they'd lose to him.

Speaker 2 (28:45):
And you're you're hitting a so I.

Speaker 1 (28:48):
Know, I know. Now I'm not saying that's true. I'm
just saying you know that, you know that happens. Yeah, yeah,
that was the the perception was, you know, other bulls
would have just kept winning till Jordan retired. In fact,
when he came back, they started winning again, so it
sort of validated some of those things. So we'll never
know for sure, but with Rain's that's kind of what

(29:08):
he's playing into, like you're the guy. You're quote the
guy because I'm not around, but as soon as I
came back, I became the guy, and you will always
be a number two. And he also like verbally padded
Drew on the head and saying, you're gonna be a
good number two. You can go be Raw champion or
do to B champion on Raw. I'm gonna be the
Universal Champion on SmackDown. And guess what, while those two
titles are equal, I'm clearly the bigger deal. Look at

(29:30):
my resume. But the fascinating thing is as a road
about in the tor Shoes utter cover story last week,
they're about thirty five they're within a week of each
other's age. Drew is the guy who wanted to be
a wrestler's whole life and had challenges and had to
you know, just basically established himself from the beginning, had
some maturity issues, had to kind of hit the reset
button and rebuild himself through Impact and NXT primarily, while

(29:53):
Rain's comes with the family background, all the connections you
could want. And it's like he tried everything to click
before he became a wrestler. You know, he want to
be NFL, and then we Albright said the CFL wasn't
glamorous for him, you know, it just wasn't clamorous enough
for him, Like what a babyface thing to say. The
hotels weren't nice enough, so that overrode my love of football.

(30:14):
And then he thought he'd build furniture with his family.

Speaker 3 (30:17):
But and he.

Speaker 1 (30:18):
Decided to try that before wrestling. And he's like saying
all this like with no sense of how that's going
to come off to wrestling fans who want their lead
babyface to have the Drew McIntyre story, which is I eat, sleep, breathe,
and love this. The Roman can't even pretend to do that.
And I sort of admire him because he's not a phony.
Like I don't think he's a phony. I think he's
very blunt about how he feels about things. But now

(30:41):
all of that works, all of that falls into place
with his current character. He's the guy who has the effector,
he's the guy who has the lineage, and he's in
his mind and he's speaking the truth in Vince wick
Man's mind, he's the obvious number one guy. And so
what a great baby face dynamic, you know Bread Sean had,
you know their dynamic. You know, Sean was the wild

(31:03):
guy and Brett was more, you know, the wrestling family.
And I respect the business and Sean disrespects the business
in it it's so upsetting to Brett. You had that
in the nday of Austin and Rock were very different
from each other, and Hogan and all of his top
rivals very different from one another. Drew and Rains. It's
a perfect diconomy if they are the generational opposites, you know,
the generational rivals, and that segment really brought that all

(31:24):
into focus, and so it does put Drew on this
sort of long term arc of I came up short
at Survivor series because Drew cheated to win, a Roman
cheated to be true and so now Drew has the
reason get revenge. And so I just think they've they've
set it up really nicely. And the big key, as
you're saying, is get Drew back in front of a
crowd and let's see how they react to everything. I think,

(31:48):
and I talked to Tony Schavani about this on Tuesday
Show this week. I think some storylines and some characters
are better because of the lack of crowds, either speeding
things up d ailing them, because sometimes a promoter has
something in mind and the fans go, WHOA, we're not
buying into this, We're gonna rebel against it, or we're
gonna turn somebody too soon. Like Chris Jericho and MGF.

(32:10):
Are you know a young heel and an old heel there.
Jericho's more than double Mgf's age, but they're compared to
each other a lot. And the act is MGF looks
up to Jericho, but he's also a conniving con man
who's trying to infiltrate Jericho's group. And you have Jericho,
who's a beloved veteran who's a heel, but fans really
like him, and if it was in front of a crowd,

(32:32):
the fans would be cheering Jericho already loudly. They're already
sing his song when he comes out. But because they
don't have those crowds, Aw can actually tell the story
a little slower, And so going back to Roman and Drew,
they can tell the story of Roman and Drew in
a way where there's no change, like they're giving Reins
the breathing space to be a heel without potentially the

(32:54):
crowd cheering him. I don't think that's going to be
your risk. But they get to tell the full story
of the of the relationship between those two and then
drop it in front of a crowd as sort of
not a finished product, but at a stage where they've
really firmly established why Drew should be cheered, why Rain
should be booed, And well, I don't think there's a
big risk fans would flip because I think Rains is

(33:15):
a really effective heel. By the time they get in
front of crowds, likely sometime in twenty twenty one, probably
somewhere in mid twenty twenty one, I think they're going
to have these two top stars, they each hold their
respective belts, they'll be seen as equals, and fans would
be rooting for Drew because Roman was so demeaning to him.
I think it's really a great landing place for both
of them.

Speaker 2 (33:34):
You know, it's interesting. I'm glad you mentioned that way,
because that reminded me of another point that I thought
about when I was watching that segment, is that you know,
it was almost like they were in like a closed
set where they were talking into like a just like
a little levelier microphone, and it wasn't you know, Rain's
wasn't having to emote to this large audience. He was
in more of a conversation that was being recorded. And

(33:57):
I saw like that lited itself better to his ability
to communicate.

Speaker 1 (34:01):
He doesn't have to react to crowds heckling or booing
or cheering. He can stay focused.

Speaker 2 (34:05):
On his task exactly. And I think that's why it
was so much better than what I had seen. You know,
when you get on the microphone and have this promo
exchange with a you know, a Shamus or somebody else,
that it was just so awkward and forced. And I
think this, this actually is going to help him. I
think to not have any fans in the stands for
a while is because he can just sit there and

(34:25):
talk and have this sort of conversation and being control
of himself and not worry, like you said, worry about
the fans yelling at him throwing them off. And so
that was a little bit jarring to me just watching
it at first, like they're wasn't whispering to each other. Yes,
they're not yelling to the crowd. You know.

Speaker 1 (34:45):
Anytime you're watching ww E Raw or SmackDown or AEW
Dynamite in particular, send us an email if you've got
thoughts on the show or a topic you want us
to address or a question for us. Wade Keller Podcast
at PW torch dot com. Kellor Podcast at petew torch
dot com. If there's anything else going on in pro
wrestling that you want us to address on our main

(35:06):
podcast during our mailbank segments, that same email applies Wade
Keller Podcast at PW torch dot com. We invite that interaction.
Let us know what you think of what we're saying,
and let us know what you want us to talk
about and ask us specific questions. Wade Keller Podcast at
PW torch dot com. Did you see that I camera

(35:29):
rot here was the when Roman Raines got booed for
ten minutes on Raw after WrestleMania?

Speaker 2 (35:33):
Was that after?

Speaker 1 (35:34):
Uh?

Speaker 2 (35:35):
Was that the Dallas for WrestleMania?

Speaker 1 (35:37):
I'm not sure, but did you do you remember covering
that raw?

Speaker 2 (35:40):
Gosh, there are so many there are so many raws
post wrestum raws. We just or post rumble raws too,
where he got boot out of the building and then yeah,
but there's one ready together.

Speaker 1 (35:49):
He walked to the ring and the fans just boot
him and then they boot him and he just stood
there and didn't say anything, and then they boot him
and you know the vincent the girl of his that
you like to stick with it, let's go with it,
and he just took stood there and took it for
ten minutes, and it was just just compelling television. And
you know, you wonder now if crowds were present, if

(36:12):
they're gonna and I hope they would play along and
boo this guy because the reason you didn't like him
is the same reason you should dislike him now. The
only thing missing is he's not miscast. He is properly cast,
but he's still the same person he didn't like, so
boo him, and I think they would. And I think
Withdrew people like him because wrestling fans like wrestlers who

(36:35):
are wrestling fans, and they can tell. So I think
I think this storyline be fine with crowds. But there's
certain segments that have that room to breathe and be
paced out without that. But it's possible that if Rain's
is hitting their opposite to Drew, the crowd might have
enhanced a segment greatly. I'm not an advocate for like
not bringing fans back, but that was one of those segments.
Some crowds maybe, but some cities, but that crowd or

(36:57):
that segment was just fine without a crowd for the
reasons that you said. Maybe it'd have been better with
the crowd, but it would have been different, and it
was so good as it was that I'm just fine
with it.

Speaker 2 (37:08):
Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (37:09):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (37:09):
I think that he I think arranges in a better
environment when there's not a crowd. Yeah. I just you know,
I hate to say that, but I just think he's
better when he just just sitting there, just talking and
just being a heel and being obnoxious, you know, kind
of being you know, the head of the table. I
thought that was a nice touch where they weren't sitting
opposite each other. He like literally just moved pierced away
and said, I'm I'm at the head of the table.

(37:31):
I thought that was such a good visual enhancement of
the story and and nice positioning. And then, uh, you know,
and Drew didn't react, and I thought he held his
own and said, you know, and they had their nice
exchange and I thought that went well. And you know
what Roally took me a while to get used to
Wade was the video board in the background. You know,
I thought I was. I thought it was, you know,

(37:54):
gonna go colorblind with all the you know, the people
with different backgrounds and so many fans and so many colors,
little boxes, and you know, that was that was a
trip to get used to.

Speaker 4 (38:05):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (38:05):
There was there was so much going on there.

Speaker 4 (38:08):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (38:08):
And in the back of mind, I'm wondering, I wonder
how often WW looks at their fans and it just reinforces,
you know, their their mindset about their audience. I thought
that was such a thing back then and still probably is.
It's just their view of their audience. And now they're
able to watch their audience, you know, like watching their audience,
watch their show.

Speaker 1 (38:28):
It's embodied every time you watch Stephanie McMahon. She is
the physical personification of how w W management feels about
their fan base. Thank you for making us rich. You're
wonderful people, but you are beneath us.

Speaker 2 (38:41):
Exactly. I I had that thought. I'm like, I know
exactly what they're thinking when they see this video board
and their fans, and it's still knocking the fans, and
the fans are awesome. It's just it's that it's that
elitist mentality of like, we are you know, you are
beneath us, but thank you for making us rich.

Speaker 1 (38:58):
Stephanie walks around, you know, Carris herself and in her
promos in front of fans, the way that preschool teacher
walks around looking at some absolutely terrible artwork that the
kids are doing, the four year olds four years and
fives are doing, and walking around panting them on the head,
going good job, good job, good job. Like just that patronizing.

(39:22):
And I'm not trying to rip on four year old art.
I'm just saying, you know, the job of any adult
is to reinforce you know, depositive reinforcement to kids who
are being creative, and that's how I see stuff. And
she's like, you know, I would possibly welcome any of
you into my home, and I might let you wash
my car, but I'll let you pay pay tickets and
have your fun cheering and booing like wrestling fans do.

(39:46):
And so yeah, that the video wall is sort of yeah,
it gives you. I mean, they get to see that
in the in the live crowds too, obviously with real
life people. But there's something about seeing somebody, you know,
sit in front of their laptop that maybe maybe is
a little window into that world in a different way.

Speaker 2 (40:02):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I was wondering about that too. Him.
I was thinking about that. I was like, what's so
different about it than you know, just fans in the stands,
almost like fans in the stands that all just sort
of blends together. You know, there's just that one right yeah, uh,
you know, just that one view of everyone. But when
you break everybody up in the little boxes, you can
end they're out of their element. You know, they're like

(40:22):
you said, they're in front their laptop, they're in the
living room, they're in their bedroom, the bathroom, wherever. You know,
it's just everyone looks like an individual and not part
of a larger group, and you're just sort of picking
out people that stand out. And I'm sure they're doing
that and and it's just a window into their audience.
But I just I just wonder if they'll if they'll

(40:45):
like change the way they view their audience because they
have a little bit more of a personal connect. I'm
trying to find a positive on this, you know, just
now they can see like actual people and say, yeah,
these are our real fans. We need to understand and
listen to them and not just write them off as
a group.

Speaker 6 (40:59):
Of you know, internet fans or or the you know,
the or the vocal minority group, you know, the hated reins,
and you know, just kind of seeing them more as
people than a group of people that they just put in.

Speaker 2 (41:11):
A one love category. So that could be a positive
from them, I don't think so maybe I don't think
that a nice try.

Speaker 1 (41:18):
I do. I think, uh, you know, obviously they face
challenges with this, and and I'm sympathetic to you know,
just they don't have a lot of options and all that.
And I'm I'm I'm pro Thunderdome because there's not a
vi I challenge anyone to come up with a better
viable option than enhancing the noise so it's not dead
quiet and echoey and other or bringing people in and

(41:38):
having super spreader events where everyone's giving each other covid.
I mean, it's just they put a lot of money
into it, and it's not it's not ideal, but I
think it's the best practical, UH solution. And and and
you know, they've tweaked the production as they've gone a
little bit.

Speaker 7 (41:58):
I'm Kelly Wells, host of the seven Star podcast, the
new Ongoing Torch show covering the world of New Japan
pro wrestling. We'll drop new episodes as major shows and
noteworthy events dictate.

Speaker 8 (42:10):
And I'm Chris Lansdow join us as we covered the
ever changing landscape of New Japan as they navigate an
era with no lack of talent but a real need
to create some new styles. You can stream the new
seven Stop podcast now from Pro Wrestling Talk.

Speaker 1 (42:37):
I'm Drew McIntyre as a top babyface. What did you
think watching Drew at the Rumble and you know, just
the story arc of his career in general, are you
surprised that he's made it to the spot. And do
you think he's playing the best Drew McIntyre role that
he could play based on, you know, seeing so much

(42:58):
of his work over the years and knowing this was
his goal, and he certainly looked the part of somebody
who would be a top guy for Vincent man.

Speaker 2 (43:07):
M hm. I'm surprised in the sense that he had
so many setbacks and so many roundabouts, and so many
almost never quite not quite, never gonna happen, you know,
try this, try that, not the right timing, not the
right fit, and then all of a sudden it just happened,
you know. And so I'm surprised in the sense that

(43:29):
I thought it would just never happen, like it would
never come together, there'd be another something that happened. But
now all the stars aligned for him and he had
this amazing moment, the rumble, And yes, I totally think
that this is a McIntyre that was there all along.
It's just for whatever reason he whether he needed to mature,

(43:49):
or it needed to be the right timing, or just
physically developed. You know, now he looks like a superstar.
And not that he did it before, but I think
now you know, it's just something about being in the
mid thirties. As you mentioned, he's matured into a superstar.

Speaker 1 (44:06):
He's a man, I think that, you know, like he
he comes across as an alpha, and you know when
he was in three MB and he was proclaimed as
a chosen one, it just he was a different person.
Like I don't think today's Drew even recognizes who that
Drew McIntyre was back then, other than a guy with
potential who had a lot of grown up to do.

Speaker 2 (44:25):
Exactly. Yeah, he feels like he feels like a leading
man now. That's a great way of putting it. And
I think that it just, you know, some wrestlers it
just takes a while to get to that point. You know.
It's like you can be a certain you know, not
everybody's Jeff Hardy in their twenties that's got that charisma
that you know, you don't have to be that leading
man kind of person. You can just get buy in charisma.

(44:48):
Other guys they've got to develop and become that guy.
It just takes time to physically mature and and you know,
just have that presence. And I think Drew definitely has
all of that now. And I think that The big
thing that also I felt was holding him back back
then was just being international, you know, not being from America,
not being John Cena, not having the all American look

(45:11):
and the you know, just all that. Yeah, and so
I think now, you know, w W is so global now,
and then you know, they always have been. There wasn't
that flavor of global talent like they've done now, or
they're just you know, there's nxt UK and you know,
just all the international flavor that's you know, president. And
now that they've become a little bit more internationalized as

(45:34):
far as the talent roster, it's a little bit more blended.
It feels like a natural fit. You know, he doesn't
the next major baby face doesn't have to be another Sena,
an all American, you know, g I Joe. It can
be a you know, Andrew McIntyre who has a little
bit of an accent but still fits in as the
main guy for w B. And I think that's fine. Yeah,
the timing is good.

Speaker 1 (45:55):
Yeah, he's got some edge to him. There's he still
strays into and it might be a battle fights weekly,
you know, not seeming like the corporate the corporate spokesperson
for you know, WWE and the Thundernome and all that. Like,
you know, his his job. And I think one of
the key aspects of a successful lead babyface is don't

(46:16):
be too much of a company guy. You happen to
work for that company, but your job isn't to be
the pr agency to make fans think the company is wonderful.
Your job is to seem like you are an admirable
star athlete who happens to wrestle for this company and
you're paying money to see him, and you just happen
to work for that company. W B doesn't want to
think that way because you know their people are enmeshed

(46:37):
in that idea that you know it's they don't see
themselves as wrestling promoters. They see themselves as a corporation
that happens to make their money through selling pro wrestling,
and the wrestlers. A lead babyface especially can't be sucked
into that. I think that can backfire. I think it
hurt John Cena especially, and so Drew. You know, he
strays into that sometimes. But I think people see him

(46:59):
as a guy who no matter where he would, no
matter who he worked for, he'd be the same guy
wanting to the wanting to be the best wrestler on
that brand, which John Cena I think he gave off
the vibe I'm so proud to be the face of
the brand, and you lose something as with what wrestling
added essence is and what fans tune in to see
in terms of a top star when that top baby

(47:20):
face is proud to be the face of the brand
instead of a badass who likes to kick ass and
win titles, but does so in a way that makes
you want to cheer him. And I think Drew's finding
a you know, gets a B plus for that so far.

Speaker 2 (47:32):
Yeah, I'll be curious to see how he develops, you know,
over the next year or two and hopefully again in
front of fans and to kind of get that reaction.
But I think he's well on his way. And I
mean I think, you know, from what I can tell
and just the way that he's matured, I can tell
that he's in this for the long haul, and I
think WWE is behind him for the long haul, and

(47:54):
so that's good to see. And so yeah, I'm with
you way I can see this. Drew and Rain's dynamically
asking for a while as they go back and forth
on different brands, and you know, just mix it up
on pay per views, and you know, I can see
this being sort of a Cina Whorton. You know, we
went through so many iterations of Sina Orton and the

(48:16):
you know two thy is twenty ten. You know, this
could be that, this could be that of the twenty twenty.

Speaker 1 (48:22):
Some people are like no, but you know, I know,
I totally know what you mean if you missed it earlier.
Just a reminder, we're running our second VIP sale of
the year. We don't do these often. Take advantage of
it now. It is a limited time offer. Take nine
dollars off a VIP subscription a one month, three month
or one year sub It brings the one month sub
down to just three dollars in ninety nine cents. The

(48:43):
coupon code is n o V twenty twenty five as
in November n o V twenty twenty five, and that
takes nine dollars off. When you check out on our
sign up form pw torch dot com, slash go vi
ip give you full details on membership benefits and links
to our sign up for him. All right, let's talk

(49:08):
about AW a little bit more. The names that are there, Cody,
the young Bucks, Kenny Omega, the executive vice presidents who
you know kind of formed the or not form, but
are the core of the company. And then they had
two really big signings, with no disrespect to FTR and
PACK in that realm, the two big signings were Chris

(49:28):
Jericho and Dean Ambrose John Moxley. When I tell you
that as somebody who you know did kind of go
cold turkey for a while. Now you're keeping up on
it through the torch, not watching a ton, But when
you see the AW commercial, what do you think is
making the biggest difference to them? Competing demographically in that
eighteen to thirty four year old male audience, they're right

(49:51):
there with w RAW in terms of viewership, but RAW
has a lot more older viewers, so they have much
bigger total audiences. But what to you seems like the
big I guess what's what's the biggest part of that equation?
Is it? Is it Cody and the leadership that he
shows as sort of the co founder of Sorts. Is
it keny Omgan bringing the new Japan credibility, or is

(50:12):
it the legacy star status at Jericho or the momentum
and contemporary star power of John Dean Ambrose coming over
from all those years with the Shield and getting to
break off and be his own guy, and you know,
be a blend of Stone Cold Steve Austin and Terry
Funk and you know, pick your good old Dick Slator

(50:33):
from the eighties and you know, whatever you can pluck
a variety of people emerge them to kind of blend
into him. Who do you see as like kind of
the biggest get for aew and what's your reaction to
the roster in general of their top guys.

Speaker 2 (50:46):
Yeah, you know, I kind of look at it as
you've got to be able to check like three or
four boxes. You got to have the stars. They have
the stars. You just rattled off you know who's who
of a big names from the past ten to fifteen years.
So you gotta have stars. You got to have funding
to you know, to make yourself look big, and you

(51:08):
got to have a little bit of that cool factor.
And so I think so many promotions that have tried
to get to this level have either not been able
to check one of those three boxes or they failed
at one of those three boxes. And I think with
a w it is. You know, when you're sending around
like a Jericho or an Ambrose, you know, Moxley or

(51:30):
Cody Rose. You know, that's instant credibility. You throw in
the cool factor of the young Bucks from in Code
in Kinney, Omega from you know, from that New Japan
kind of that underground you know, wrestling fans love that,
that New Japan sense of wrestling, and that just you
just bring that to a national promotion in America. That
just it just adds that cool factor. And then obviously

(51:53):
having the funding you know they got, they've got the
money behind it. Uh, they're able to to differentiate themselves
and not like in a small way. That's like your
Ring of Honor was able to differentiate itself. But you know,
it's never been able to reach that the next level
of a nationally recognized brand. It's always been sort of

(52:14):
that pocket of you know, Philadelphia, Chicago, New York kind
of brand that has that following, but hasn't had that
national presence, even though I know they're syndicated all over,
but they just just don't have that national recognition. Whereas
I think ae W has very quickly built that and

(52:35):
continued it and maintained it and been able to deliver
great content and great wrestling. I guess that's the fourth box.
You got to have good wrestling. You've got to have
you know, a good product, good shows, good storylines, good matches,
good talent. So that's obviously a big factor. But yeah,
I think, you know, I just think that when I
saw that commercial, and you know, I saw the SmackDown commercial,

(52:58):
very corporate, very you know, safe and cleanse and Michael
Cole and you know, the corporate enthusiasm that Cole just
as oozes. Uh I just Michael Cole. It's just so corporate,
it's so w w uh. But then you know, AW
had this like outside the Box commercial, you know, and

(53:18):
you know Cole Sabana talking about you know, this is
by wrestlers for wrestlers. There was a scene where there
was a you know, a car being smashed in a
parking lot. You know, there was a little bit of uh,
you know, two or three seconds of entering action. But
I got the synth. It was more about being cutting edge,

(53:39):
being different, being something that you want to be part of,
something that you can like talk to your friends about
and say, hey, have you seen the show? This is
like a really cool wrestling show. They're doing cool stuff.
They've got cool characters, they have cool stuff, they have
cool matches, they you know, they have you know, a
couple of guys that you probably remember from w b uh,

(54:00):
you know what I mean. So it just has that,
it has all these things coming together at the right
time to be the real alternative to corporate w w uh.
And you know, I'm really interested to see how this progresses,
and especially as we get kind of get past COVID
and get into twenty twenty one, and if they're able

(54:21):
to re ramp up again and regain some momentum just
from having fans back in the stands and a full
full audience. I think that you know, you know, financially
w W but they're just so gigantic and so it's
not really that's not really the game. I don't think
the game is a you know, make a billion dollars
a year like w's what what is their latest annual revenue?

Speaker 3 (54:44):
Wait is it?

Speaker 2 (54:45):
Are they up to a billion? Yet? Where we at
with the financials?

Speaker 1 (54:48):
They were a border borderline this last time. Let me
bring up the exact number because it just it just
came out. Yeah, So revenue this last quarter, third quarter
of twenty twenty was two hundred twenty one million, So
you know, it's not quite on pace for a billion

(55:10):
if you you know, project that out. But obviously they
have you know, some changes in revenue with without live
events and you know, other things going on. But I
mean they're they're you know that that new TV deal
is crazy helpful during a time like sure, yeah.

Speaker 2 (55:25):
Yeah, yeah, So I mean I don't think aw is
you know that the game is and they get to
a billion dollar revenue company. I mean, that's just not
the game. But I think there's a way to make
money for themselves and for the talent and to become
This is what I always think of. Another common a
common a thing that another let me put this way,

(55:47):
another thing to check the box is do w W
wrestlers see the other promotion as a parallel or even
an upward move. You know, I feel like, you know,
no other promotion that's been able to compete with w
B since w CW has seemed like a parallel or
upward trajectory move. Like for for talent, it's more of

(56:08):
a oh yeah I got fired, I need somewhere to go,
or yeah, you know, I'm kind of burnt out.

Speaker 3 (56:12):
In w W.

Speaker 2 (56:13):
Let me go to you know, TNA or r o
H for a couple of year or two. I think
AW if they can become the promotion where talent is
going back and forth kind of like the money and
they wars with with w W and WWF and w CW,
that's another one of those milestone benchmarks where they're a

(56:33):
big time player and their view as such, not just
by fans and you know, their TV partners, but by
the actual talent.

Speaker 1 (56:41):
I do think that's the next big thing for a
W is when that moment comes that you're talking about,
because it's not just the value of whoever jumps, you know,
whoever leaves WWE and ghost AW that will bring value
and novelty, but it also just affirms something that Impact
wrestling just didn't quite get. Even in signing and bringing

(57:03):
in Christian and Kurt Angle. It wasn't it just wasn't enough.
And then by the time you know, they brought in
Hogan and RVD and Jeff Hardy and and had that
big splash on Monday Night, there were other problems with them.
And there are problems with that talent too because it
was too reminiscent of the dying days of WW in

(57:24):
certain ways, and a lot of the politics came with it. AW.
What they've done this this last year plus is established
their brand and it's firmly established who they are, and
it's it's holding their numbers well, they're they're holding their numbers.
They're not growing, but they're holding their numbers really well.
That next growth period is when they get validated as
a place that can do what you just described, which
is we are so for real and so permanent in

(57:48):
so major league and we can pretty much sign and
when someone's contract comes up, it's kind of our choice
if we want to make an offer to lure them over,
and there's almost nobody off limits in terms of who
we could afford, and wrestlers in w B want to
go work for AW. Now there's a little bit less
of an advantage than there used to be because B
is cutting back on house shows. Who knows post COVID

(58:08):
where that lands. And one of the advantages of AW,
like with Nitro up, you know, when it came to
RAW or really WW compared to WWF at the time,
is wrestlers like WW because it not only guaranteed contracts,
but they only had to work one day a week,
and in the WWF you had to go earn it
every weekend and be on the road, you know, seventeen
out of twenty days or whatever, you know, fifteen out
of twenty days whatever work out to for the different guys.

(58:31):
So with AW they might lose a little of that advantage,
but just the work environment and how how much people
enjoy working there, combined with not having to put up
with a lot of things that a lot of wrestlers
field they have to quote put up with in w B,
that is going to be a validating moment. And you know,
I don't even know what name it would be. In WBE,
is going to be pretty you know, going to want
to keep their guys that they think have value. But

(58:53):
when a top tier guy does jump, if it doesn't
feel like Christian, but it's more like curt Angle, no
offense Christian because he had a nice run and impact
and it was a good move for him and all that,
but it wasn't a big impact that That's where I
think what you're talking about kind of brings AW two
that next level and maybe brings in even more viewers.
Who go, Wow, this is this is a this isn't

(59:15):
cast offs. It's not in the you know Chris Jerrich
on the Final Days in a disgruntled Moxley, and some
rebels who didn't fit into the corporate culture like Cody
and the Bucks and Kenny. There's something more going on here.
Give yourself a reason to look forward to going to
the mailbox each week with a PW Torch Newsletter paper copy.
Subscription details at PW torch dot com slash paper Copy.

(59:38):
It's twelve pages every week packed with my TV reports,
along with exclusive features such as my cover story on
the top story of the week, our pay per view
roundtable reviews from the Torch staff, exclusive feature length columns
from Greg Parks, Rich Fan, Sean Radikin, Alan Coonahan and
Zach Haydorn, Torch Talk transcripts, the latest news and more.
PW torch dot Com paper Copy. Take a break from

(01:00:02):
screen time and settle in every week with a megadosa
wrestling news and analysis. With a Pro Wrestling Torch Newsletter
paper copy edition. In the year twenty twenty two, you
can get a full year of home delivery for just
ninety nine dollars, or try US four an eight week
trial subscription pw toorch dot com slash paper copy.

Speaker 2 (01:00:28):
I remember reading in the newsletter about Brocklesterner and whether
you know, I could I couldn't tell if he was
actually in play, if it was some sort of negotiating
employ I'm not sure where that landed. But if there's
a Brocklesterner or you know, I mean, oh my gosh,
if aj Styles ever went to AW, I think that's
a guy that has track record in chrisma and he

(01:00:52):
has his WWE success, and you know, I'm just trying
to give an example of what would be that, you know,
I think of, you know, those big moments and the
money that WARS when someone jumped I mean obviously a
hul Coagan going from WWFWW ninety four, you know that
was obviously that was a huge deal. But I'm thinking
more money that WARS. You know. It's kind of like

(01:01:12):
it would be like if Undertaker, if he ever had
gone to WSW, that would have been a huge moment.
I mean, there there were so many back and forth,
you know, obviously outsiders in National.

Speaker 1 (01:01:22):
Hall, but I'm not even sure that WWE has like
as much as that will be a big moment, and
it's going to happen in some form or fashion, and
I don't know anybody who's going to be but it
doesn't have to happen either. I mean, when you look
at the roster, yeah, I mean Aj is good, but
you know, he's in the twilight of his you know,
prime as an inwring worker. He's got some legacy star appeal.

(01:01:42):
But you know who's that going to be? Is it
gonna be If Seth Rollins and Becky Lynch showed up
together on TV sometime in twenty twenty one, that'd be
a big moment. If Samy's ain't showed up, I mean,
it'd be good. But he's been marginalized a bit. You know,
Matt Riddle has been marginalized a bit by w B,
So you know, but it way be a statement. But
when you look at the roster, there's not like a

(01:02:03):
ton of people, and it's an indictment of WW. We
do a agree that AW would even think they would
want to overpay for or pay market value for because
they've got a roster. I think that they're that they're
pretty happy with and they're pretty good. They're pretty happy
with their scouting so and you know, and some of
the guys I just don't think fit as well with
them as they do with WW. Like I think Drew
is a perfect fit for B. I don't know that

(01:02:25):
he's a great fit for AEW. I mean, i'd take
him if i'm AW, But I don't think, like, oh wow,
they'd use him better, you know. I mean, but that's
a that's an exception, not the rule when it comes
to the talent. So yeah, I mean the thing is
is AW is gonna be fine even if that never happens,
if all they do is stick with who they have
and scout well and build their own stars. Speaking of which,

(01:02:47):
James MJF. You gotta at the steak Dinner with MJF
and Jericho MJF a up and coming, brash heel in
his early twenties, student of the business, loves loves you
know what he's doing, plays the Heel Act twenty four
to seven. Anytime he's in public, you know, doesn't break

(01:03:08):
k fab on social media or an autogress sessions or
behind the scenes, and you know, Jericho is as a
bit of a template for him. I think Eddie Eddie
Gobert's another template forum, you know, vintage Eddy in the
in the late eighties, early nineties. But what do you
on you, what do you think of what you've seen
of MGF as one of those kind of home homemade
or homegrown stars where he didn't have to go through

(01:03:30):
to be to be validated as a big deal. And
then what do you think of that dance routine, the
steak dinner that turned into the ballroom dancing musical type thing.

Speaker 2 (01:03:42):
Yeah, I first I want to know way it is,
where did he come from? Because I had never I
mean I've seen his name obviously in the TV reports
the newsletter and he's you know, the way he described
him in the recaps, he seems like a big deal
and always pops out as being part of a bigger deal.
So where did he come from? Like I have never
seen him before until I watched that clip. But what
what's his background? What's his backstory?

Speaker 1 (01:04:03):
Yeah, he's twenty four years old. He worked some in
combat z own wrestling and Major League Wrestling. And then
I first saw him, uh the same week and I
went to the All Out event or all in event
in Chicago. So I was at twenty eighteen August twenty
or Labor Day weekend twenty eighteen, and I saw him
at an indie show in Chicago and it just jumped

(01:04:23):
out to me, like, oh, and I think he worked
Marco stunt, so he just did a whole verbal spiel
about poor Marco and they had a match. I was like, Okay,
this guy can talk, this guy owns the room. He
doesn't lack confidence, and he was just a gimme for
aw to sign. And you know, he's just twenty four
years old, so he's you know, only a few years

(01:04:45):
into you know, but I don't know. I think I
think he started at nineteen or twenty, so he's got
pretty good experience, but a lot left to go.

Speaker 2 (01:04:52):
Okay, Yeah, you know, he reminds me of a cross
between Cold Cabana and East Three, and he kind of
has the ban of build and the EC three personality. Yea,
And yeah, I mean I think that that is like
Jericho's perfect foil. They just you know, Jered. I think
Jericho wants to be a little goofy, a little bit
of show business, a little bit of just doing something silly,

(01:05:16):
but still you know, uh, you know, getting the point
across about what they're trying to accomplish, and I think
that AEW is the platform to do it. It seems like
I think if they would have done that at w B,
I think it would have been heavily criticized as you know,
lame and cheesy and and you know, just like another
w W skit. But I think in a w you know,

(01:05:37):
it goes back to you know, what have you built
and have you built enough credibility with your platform to
where you can kind of do a silly skit like
that and and you know, have a little bit of inside,
you know, a little inside baseball mixed in there and
and not get the eye rolling. You know. I was
kind of looking at some of the comments on the
clip you shared with me, Wade, and you know, there's

(01:05:58):
a mixed mixed bag of people saying this is stupid
and other people are saying this is awesome.

Speaker 1 (01:06:02):
And it was very We were at a Twitter poll.
It was very polarizing.

Speaker 2 (01:06:06):
What's what's the what's the percentage? I'm curious it.

Speaker 1 (01:06:10):
Was it was split. I can't I can't. I can't
remember the exact I'd have to dig through to see
the polls, but I don't remember the exact ending. But
it was like, you know, thirty percent hated it, thirty
percent loved it, and then there was a middle forty
percent who were sort of you know, you know, it
was okay or it's.

Speaker 3 (01:06:24):
Not my thing.

Speaker 2 (01:06:26):
Yeah, yeah, you know, I'd go back to if I
was like in the middle of like this was twenty
fifteen and I'm covering wrestling full time every day and
I see something like that. I you know, it's just
something about that of that mentality of the time when
you're when you're so invested in it and you really

(01:06:47):
care about it. And not that I don't care about
it now, but just when it was every day you
care about it, I probably would have poo pooed on it,
I think. But now being an outside, casual observer and
you know, just sort of you know, picking up things
here and there about what's going on in wrestling, you know,
with no no real investment and whether the storyline pays

(01:07:09):
off or you know, I'm not analyzing whether this is
going to lead to a you know, a giant pop
and the TV rating next week. You know, I'm just
watching it. I'm like, you know, it was clever, and
it got the MJF character across to me. I understand
him a lot better than before I watched the clip,
and it was a chance for Jericho to, you know,
be Jericho and be a little goofy and and do

(01:07:30):
something silly. And I think because it wasn't w W,
then I think it was okay.

Speaker 9 (01:07:36):
You know, I'm Chris Maitland and I'm Justin McClelland we
host Wrestling Coast to Coast, where we scour the wrestling
scene to find the best wrestling from the smallest places.

Speaker 10 (01:07:49):
There are thousands of matches happening every week, so Wrestling
Coast to Coast is here to discover the men and
women who could be big time stars in a few years.

Speaker 9 (01:07:57):
There are plenty of podcasts to voters to w W
and a but what's happening in the armories and gymnasiums
local wrestling hotspots around the country.

Speaker 10 (01:08:05):
We can't wait to help you find the true hidden
gems of the wrestling world. Plus, you can hear Chris
complain about bad referees.

Speaker 3 (01:08:11):
And justin bemoaning dogpile fins.

Speaker 10 (01:08:13):
Don't forget my fetal search to see a blue thunderbomb
win a match?

Speaker 3 (01:08:16):
How can I like the name?

Speaker 9 (01:08:18):
Says, we cover the hottest independent promotions from around the country,
such it as Prestige Action, West Coast Pro, Revolver, and
Beyond Wrestling.

Speaker 10 (01:08:26):
Actually, Chris, I think we stick pretty much too wrestling.

Speaker 3 (01:08:28):
No, I mean Beyond Wrestling out of Woroster.

Speaker 2 (01:08:30):
Oh right.

Speaker 9 (01:08:31):
Our show's part of the PW Torch Daily Cast lineup
and typically drops on Thursdays. Search PW Torch in your
podcast app, as subscribed to the PW Torch Daily Cast,
or stream our shows directly from PW touch dot com.
Find full details on the PW Torch Dailycast lineup at
pwtrschdailycast dot com.

Speaker 1 (01:08:58):
One of the thinks that I found James too, heies
because of COVID and the lack of crowds, I've really
loosened up on what I thought. You know, I believe
in adhering to a pretty strict narrative structure. I think
there should be, you know, sort of you know, rules
of engagement for how you present wrestling, and you follow them,
and I think that that discipline limits you, but it

(01:09:20):
creates a discipline that forces you to do the most
prudent moves rather than would to be cool if which
so often is entertaining and dazzling and buzz generating and
maybe gets you trending on Twitter, but does it help
the characters, and does it build to a match? And
does it you know, sell proverbial tickets? And I've loosened
up on that because it's it's more of a TV

(01:09:41):
industry than as ticket selling industry now and with COVID,
they don't have that live crowd, so you got to
be really creative.

Speaker 9 (01:09:48):
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:09:49):
That's where these kind of cinematic, pre taped, post produced
matches have gone, with the Graveyard match with Undertaker in
AJ styles, which you know it would just been unimaginable
in most areas of wrestling, and have something so clearly
post produced and staged and edited, and yet I think
even wrestling fans are like, but it's that or the
empty performance center, and that's not gonna work. So let's

(01:10:12):
embrace the new reality and make the best of it,
and then we'll just kind of regroup when when when
crowds are back and go, okay, how do we feel
about still doing that versus not doing that? And in
a way they might be getting it out of their system.
I don't know if Jerich and MGFF would do that.
Skin if they had a live audience, they might be like, well,
anything we do, we want that energy from the crowd.

(01:10:33):
But without that, everybody's getting creative, and that means some
mistakes are going to made and are going to be
made in some things are going to go too far.
But you know, Impact Wrestling's been doing this. They're still
around James doing their thing.

Speaker 2 (01:10:46):
They changed their name and want to Impact Wrestling.

Speaker 1 (01:10:50):
Yes, and they've been doing a lot because you know,
they are just sort of, you know, in a tough
spot in the marketplace, and they they they do you
know a good number of kind of post produced stuff
like MGFF and Jericho where it's inserted into the show
and wrestling just is changing, you know, and you can resist,
or you can make your case why you think some
things shouldn't be done and there's better routes, but you know,

(01:11:12):
once it takes that takes on that direction and it
sort of survives and has it's built an audience, then
you kind of have to recalibrate and go, Okay, you know,
this isn't what I think anyone would have thought of
doing a nineteen eighty five or nineteen ninety five, or
really two thousand and five, but there were elements of it.
You know, Undertaker has had elements of supernatural and you know,
the camera and the buried a live set which was

(01:11:32):
just you know, decried at the time as super stupid.
And you had the mini movies at WW put out
under the Oly Anderson and Sharance Adello era with you know,
Davy boy Smith running on the beach with little little
people chugging along and people leap. I can't remember what
was going on. It feels like a fever dream. Stuff
like that's been interspersed in. You know, Papa Shango in
the Voodoo. It's always been there, but there's been more

(01:11:53):
of a leaning in on that now, simply because the
odd of our option is run a wrestling show in
front of no fans, or wrestling match in front of
no fans, or have a promo where someone's talking to
a camera. So I am curious where this all shakes out,
but that that will be one of the things, along
with probably the the Boneyard match with AJ and an Undertaker,
that kind of people cite as Okay, are we gonna

(01:12:15):
still do this or not once crowds come back.

Speaker 2 (01:12:18):
Yeah, I'm really curious to see maybe one promotion goes
all the way back to how it was. Another promotion
leans in more toward the opposite direction, and then they
don't have a real case study and be able to
compare and and and see if it's apples and apples
as far as which promotions do it, you know, I
w W went one way and AW went back the
other way. You know who ends up drawing more fans

(01:12:42):
in and expanding their audience and making more money off
of it. So yeah, I mean there's so many directions
they can go now, And I mean, I'm with you, Wade.
I was very much like, no, this is the way
that it's structured. You need to, you know, adhere to
the you know, the the written and unwritten rules of
how to present wrestling on TV and not break the
fourth wall. And you know, how did the cameraman get

(01:13:04):
there in the bone yard and all that kind of stuff,
and you know who's filming this, who's directing this? Uh,
they kind of exposed of that fourth wall. But I
think that now is the time. It is sort of
like a playground in a sandbox. They've got a standbox,
they can kind of play with some stuff, and there's
not a live audience that's gonna crap on it. You know,

(01:13:24):
you're you're kind of doing your you're testing you know,
by you know, the TV audience, but there's not a
live crowd to get their reactions. You kind of play
with them stuff and figure out what works and then
maybe put some of those tools, you know, put them away.
You know this didn't work. Uh, you know, I was
reading Greg Bark's column on in a maybe this past
newsletter the one before about what was it the raw

(01:13:46):
Underground and how that just sort of fell apart after
a couple of months, and I'm like, well, no surprise there.
They can put that that tool back in the toolbox
and and not pull it back out again. But there's
some other stuff they can you know, play with and
incorporate in future stuff and maybe twenty twenty one, there's
some things they can you know, incorporate that that worked

(01:14:08):
and build on that and also try to get back
to more of a live wrestling environment and use those
crowd reactions as the better gauge. But you know, I think,
you know, I mean, like you said, I mean the
alternative is to have a boring, bland, empty arena show
every week, And you know, no one wants that. So
I think now if there ever was a time to experiment,
it's this season for sure.

Speaker 1 (01:14:30):
Yeah, that's that's how I feel. This is like they're
freshman year at college. Just figure out who you are.
You don't you don't have the constraints of living at
home anymore. You're with friends. They don't know who you
were before this. You've got independence. Like it's just I mean,
in a weird way, it's like wrestling is like, all right,
all those rules that we had to follow before. They
might have been good, they might not have been, but
we're breaking them all and we're gonna see what happens

(01:14:51):
and we'll you know, circle back at the end of COVID.
So it's uh yeah, I mean, who knew. We didn't
know where things were headed. And obviously, you know, there
was panic and concern in fear for a lot of
different reasons and creatively, you know, there's been some highs
and some lows during during this journey.

Speaker 2 (01:15:08):
Absolutely, yeah, isn't it. I enjoy our joy following along
in the torch. Yeah, yeah, that's new. Every week.

Speaker 1 (01:15:17):
We are running our second VIP sale of the year.
You want to take advantage of this if you've thought
of going VIP or let your sub lapse, had to
step away for a while, it's a good time to
come back. Pw torch dot com slash go Vip tells
you about VIP membership. There is a link to our
order form and you can choose a one month or
three month subscription and you can take nine dollars off

(01:15:38):
any of those three options. The coupon code is n
OV twenty twenty five as in November Nov twenty twenty five.
To take nine dollars off. That brings a one month
sub down to three dollars and ninety nine cents. That
is a full VIP membership. That means you unlock nearly
four decades of archives, one hundreds of retro radio shows
from the nineties, two decades and more of podcasts on

(01:15:59):
to and along with an ad free website, ad free
versions of our free podcast and a bunch of VIP
exclusive features, including podcasts that are compatible with the Apple
Podcast native app and many other Android and iobs apps,
and also the new Wade Keller news bulletins that come
in three formats, a PDF that's great on a tablet
or a laptop screen, an all text version, which is
great to read on your phone, and a podcast version.

(01:16:21):
These run about sixteen minutes in terms of podcast length.
And it is a new feature. I'm running two three
four times a week. I'm going to try to increase
that as my schedule adjust to this new feature. So
check it out. Pw torch dot com slash go VIP
coupon code n OV twenty twenty five to take nine
dollars off a one month, three month or one year sub.

(01:16:47):
And no John Cena, Like that's just weird. You know,
he's just well not around.

Speaker 2 (01:16:52):
What's what's so funny? Way is I see more I
probably see more Sena than anybody else because I see
them commercials all the time. Time I'm just watching a
random you know, watching a football game on a Saturday afternoon,
there's a commercial for him, and you know, I can't
remember what he's doing. He's pro voting. I don't know
if it's experience or like one of those you know,
credit score services. But I mean he's got the hefty deal.

(01:17:16):
I mean, you know, I'm just saying, I'm like, my gosh,
he's still around, but now he's in commercials and the
hair has grown out and he's riding mechanical bowl and
I guess this was the end game all along with the.

Speaker 1 (01:17:29):
Commercials and movies. Risina, Well, he said forever, I'm w
B for life. I'm not going to be like Rock,
and I just said, you're not. You say you don't
want to You're not going to be like Rock because
you don't think you're going to have the opportunities that
Rock hat. But when you turned down the opportunities that
Rock had, then you score points for calling out Rock
for leaving wrestling, And I know, you know, he's sort

(01:17:51):
of amended that and said, well, you know this, that
and the other thing to differentiated, and there are some differences,
but nevertheless it came across when Sina said that as marketing,
almost like hey, Rock, you know, I'm just doing this
to market myself, no offense, and Rock might with a
straight might look at him and go, oh, yeah, no problem.
But deep down, Rocks like, you know, f you you know,
I mean, you know, why don't don't bury me to

(01:18:13):
get yourself over and then try to, you know, wink
at me and tell me, well you get why I'm
doing it. But it was hypocritical to John when he
did it because the first chance he had to do
movies and leave w he did. Now, Now, in defense
of john he put in his time, he put I mean,
he put in way more years before Rock, but he
didn't turn down movie deals for seven years while putting
in his time. He left. It just happened to get

(01:18:36):
these other offers in this outher opportunity when his you know,
when he had put in the years and maybe the
wear and tear and was getting to him. So I
kind of see it. It's it's it's nuanced, it's complicated.
But he did sort of the you know, if you
tell the young John Cena cutting promos on The Rock, hey,
guess what you're doing in twenty twenty, he'd be like, oh, oh,

(01:19:00):
how do people feel? How do people feel about me
saying these things?

Speaker 3 (01:19:03):
Now?

Speaker 1 (01:19:04):
Given that I ended up doing kind of what The
Rock did, but at a smaller scale. I mean, Johnson
would love to be hosting The Today Show probably right now,
you know, if he could. So surprised he is.

Speaker 2 (01:19:13):
Not yet he was always he was doing what the
Third Hour for a while. Yeah, I remember four years ago.
I'm surprised he's not then now, you know, the next
Michael Astrayhan, who's kind of migrate from sports or you know,
entertainment to you know, a host of a major you know,
morning TV show. I'm surprised he's not there yet. Maybe
that's next year.

Speaker 1 (01:19:31):
Yeah, I'm curious where he I'm curious where he is
in a couple of years.

Speaker 3 (01:19:34):
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:19:35):
It doesn't seem like I don't really know where he
fits in as a celebrity. You know, I don't think
he's I mean, you know, I don't. I think there's
better action stars who are younger and and you know,
better actors. But you know, but and I think there's
you know, him doing kind of you know, cornball comedy
stuff with his you know, giant facial expressions and stuff.
You know, he's that seems to be probably what works.

(01:19:58):
But he's kind of aging out of the you know
know forty ish you know hunk women swoon stage too,
a little bit into you know, we'd have to play
probably some more mature roles. So I don't, Yeah, I
don't know. I mean I don't. I don't think a
lot about it. I mean, he put his he put
his time in, and he had a you know, a
u an enriching career and was a defining top star

(01:20:19):
of his of his era, you know, with some mixed results.
But I still think one of the big things that
Seena gave to the businesses is the stability of almost
kind of a goodie two shoes type, clean cut persona
coming out of the Benoit situation and the drug deaths

(01:20:40):
and the scandals. And Sina gave WWE that corporate friendly
Raw Raw this is who we are face and say
what you will about turning away wrestling fans, and certainly
Raw lost. You know, we lost a lot of fans
compared to where they were when Sena started, and that's
you know, maybe the overriding the overriding consideration for him.
But when you look at w's numbers, I mean, nine

(01:21:01):
hundred and sixty million in twenty nineteen was their revenue
just short of a billion. You know, they worked very
hard to get that last forty million. They wanted to
be able to say it. But Sina was there for
those for that rise in sort of legitimizing and cleansing
their image and seeming corporate friendly and advertiser friendly. And

(01:21:22):
I think that is probably the number. Like the biggest
thing he did is give WWE something that I just
don't think Randy Orton could have or whoever, you know, whoever,
the competing people the edge.

Speaker 2 (01:21:33):
Yeah, yeah, no, that's a great point. Yeah, he was
kind of the bridge, the bridge away from the money
that wars to you know, this next era, which you know,
obviously it's the Roman Reigns era, but you know, they're
trying to build a younger audience, and obviously COVID has
sort of interrupted things, and who knows where things land

(01:21:54):
later on this decade, but yeah, his legacy probably is
the bridge star or to get them back to their
family entertainment roots. And you know, I look at that
video board, you know, during the McIntire and Rains contract signing.
I saw a lot of younger fans in that video board. Now,
I don't know if that was by design, and they

(01:22:15):
just you know, someone back there is manipulating the boxes
and let's get the old people away and put the
young kids and you know here, and they're in the
background of this shot. And what's camera too, what's the
background that you know, I don't know if someone's manipulating
the boxes, but there were definitely a lot of younger
fans in that in that you know see if boxes
of fans and and so, I I definitely think they're

(01:22:37):
trying to get back to that, you know, you know,
just more of a family oriented trying to make it
cool for you know, the tweens and the teenagers and
you know, before they get too old and you know,
move on to aw But you know, I think seeing
I think you're right way, I think that Scena was
that bridge. And if we look at his entire run

(01:23:00):
from that, you know, a three thousand foot of view,
I think that he was the bridge to get them
back to the way that I think McMahon wants to
run the company, which is you know, eight to eighty
and family oriented, and.

Speaker 1 (01:23:11):
He wanted to he wanted he wanted his new Holk Cogan,
you know, the guy that fit his vision, Vince. You know,
he made a lot of money and embraced Stone Cold,
Steve Auston and the Rock in the Attitude era, but
his proclivities point towards Hulk Cogan and John Cena, the
all American hero. It's it's you know, it's what the
w W w WWF was with Brunoso, Martino and Bob Backland.
He wanted to modernize it and you know, make it

(01:23:34):
more contemporary than than Bob Beckland. But the idea of
having a central lead Babyfaces is in the roots of
his family's company. And you know, Brett hard and Shawn
Michaels and Stone Cold in the Rock for different reasons,
weren't quite ideal. And I think John Cena fit the
IDEO guy. And like I said, the timing of w
B being just this damaged company with a bad reputation

(01:23:56):
and it was seen as towd Rey and corrupt and
Sena just absolutely full force helped. He was the face
of their effort to rebrand what their corporation was. And
there's a whole generation of people who don't don't even
know or aren't even aware of the steroids scandal and
sex scandals of the early nineties and the drug death scandals,

(01:24:18):
or for that matter, the the you know, R rated
content scandals with the parents, television consul and stuff during
the Attitude era. That's all behind him and now dobeb
is just Americana And I think that is Vince's dream.
A billion dollar a year, a major TV deal, Fox
Broadcast Network and being accepted in the corporate culture was
you know, I think the endgame for Vince McMahon other
than perhaps eventually selling and cashing out big and getting

(01:24:44):
out and just looking at that bucket of cash and going,
I'm done with it. But look what I made? And
you know that that's the story that's yet to be written,
is it. Does do they end up getting bought by
a major you know, major conglomerate and that's you know,
or does Vince hand retire or or what happens if
he dies and then who takes over and what happens

(01:25:06):
from there? I mean that is that is the next
story around the corner, is you know, what is the
next phase of WWE with her without Vince. You don't
have to wait for the way Keller Pro Wrestling post
show to find out what I thought of Monday Night
Raw and SmackDown. Each week, you can check out my
reports that are updated live throughout Raw and SmackDown at

(01:25:29):
pwtorch dot com. My written report will tell you what's
happening in detail in case you missed the show, and
it will also analyze key segments and give my random
thoughts quips on what I am watching as it airs.
So check it out every Monday night and Tuesday Night
at pewtorch dot com. That also applies to wwepaypreviews. I
cover those live at pw torch dot com with a

(01:25:51):
detailed written report with star ratings. And of course you
can find other TV reports from other contributors to pw
torch such as nxt ROH, Impact Wrestling and more. Check
it out pw torch dot com your first stop for
TV and pay per view written reports.

Speaker 2 (01:26:19):
I think the event wants to get to that billion,
you know, and and hit a billion annual revenue and
then think about selling. Yeah, I think that, you know, man, Yeah,
I think that if we look at it asen as
the bridge to.

Speaker 11 (01:26:34):
Get to that, to that in game, if that endgame
is to sell, I think, yeah, they had to get
back to being more acceptable corporately in the in the
corporate environment. And then yeah, I mean you think about
the potential buyers, you know, I mean you can line
them up of you know, Disney Fox and you know,
or the Fox is the parent company, but Amazon even
or you know, just any other entertainment property out there

(01:26:58):
that has a lot of money and a lot of
money to burn. It makes a lot of sense, you know,
at this stage. And so yeah, I wouldn't.

Speaker 2 (01:27:07):
Be surprised of a year or two from now. And
you know, I've seen in the torch. You know, there's
been some some speculation here and there, and you know,
the family won't comment and all that, but I'm sure
behind the scenes there's conversations and it's just a matter
of if there's a buyer, the price is right, the
timings right, and McMahon is wanting to give up some

(01:27:29):
control and those are there's a lot of a lot
of boxes. The checks we'll see if they ever get
during lifetime.

Speaker 1 (01:27:36):
Yeah, I mean, I think Vince lives. You know, he
looks at the big picture, but he also just lives
day to day for the rush of creating new stars
and new matches and and and and you know, being
a wrestling promoter. And I don't know that as much
as that that cashing out. If if he cashed out
but he still had, you know, a role, would he
want that or if he cashed out, does he just
want to get out? And you know the XFL didn't

(01:27:56):
work out, so you know he doesn't have that to
fall back on. Yeah, I mean, this man is the
large story arc in this industry for as long as
I've been covering wrestling that you know hasn't hasn't has
still you know, some more chapters to tell, and I'm
I'm I'm interested in seeing what happens, and I'm sure
you'll be paying attention to that too.

Speaker 2 (01:28:14):
Absolutely, I get the Torch every week, and I you know,
I always look forward to reading what's what's going on,
and then if something piques my interest, I'll go, you know,
read a a little bit more on the PABE torch
dot com website, or or you know, watch a clip
on YouTube or something. But yeah, that's how I stay
in touch and stay connected to what's going on. So

(01:28:37):
I mean, wait, thirty thirty three years of the Torch, mean,
my goodness, it's it is quite an accomplishment. So I'm
glad that I was able to play a small, small
part of the timeline and just build a long lasting
relationship over wrestling.

Speaker 1 (01:28:53):
Well, thank you, James. It's it's been great touch and
base with you. Is there anything else you want to
bring up? I'd be kind of leading the topics, but
before we rapper, did we kind of hit what you
wanted to or what we talked about talking about?

Speaker 2 (01:29:05):
Yeah? Absolutely, I think we had the big stuff and
it was fun to share my my Rumble story from
me and that person. Yes, and so that that was
I've been to two of the biggest fortying events of
the year as far as crowd size goes. You know,
I was at the Rumble, which had you know, forty
forty five thousand fans, which you know now it's like

(01:29:26):
forty five thousand people in the stadium. Oh my gosh,
you know, it seems like you know, it was ages ago.
And and also on January first, I drove up to
Dallas with my brother and my dad. We went to
the Cotton Bowl for the uh the Frozen what do
they what do they call that the Frozen?

Speaker 1 (01:29:42):
You know it's college you know, if it's college football teams,
I cannot help you.

Speaker 2 (01:29:46):
Well, this was hockey.

Speaker 1 (01:29:47):
This was a you're talking about Oh oh sorry, yeah, this.

Speaker 2 (01:29:52):
Was the you know, the January first NHL game they
actually put in the Cotton Bowl in Dallas and had
it was the Dallas Stars, you know, year old you're
warmer teams back in the day against Nashville and they
you know, they put a hockey rink in the middle
of the cotton Ball. Cool and I think they're seventy eighty
thousand fans there. I mean it was it was packed. Yeah,
I've been to two of the biggest sporting events of

(01:30:13):
the year. By based on your crowd size, there's been
nothing since March.

Speaker 3 (01:30:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:30:19):
I was gonna say then you pretty much slammed the
door shut on anything even competing with it.

Speaker 2 (01:30:24):
So that's my uh yeah, that's my my claim to
fame for the year.

Speaker 3 (01:30:28):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:30:28):
Well cool, well, James, it's been great catching up with
you a little bit off air and a lot here
on air. I'm glad you took time to do this,
and I'm sure people who heard your voice for years
and years on our Torch podcasts who wondered whatever happy
to you are We'll be happy to happy to catch
up and see that you're doing well and in a
good place. And we got to uh talk some wrestling too,

(01:30:49):
and that was that. That's nostalgic and fun.

Speaker 2 (01:30:51):
Absolutely yeah. And if anybody wants to connect with me,
I'm on LinkedIn, LinkedIn dot com slash I think it's
what I in and then JC Rights that was my
handle JC Rights on LinkedIn.

Speaker 1 (01:31:05):
Spell right, So.

Speaker 2 (01:31:07):
W R I t.

Speaker 1 (01:31:08):
E s gotcha?

Speaker 3 (01:31:10):
Yep?

Speaker 2 (01:31:11):
Good? I right?

Speaker 1 (01:31:12):
Yes, I get it. Yeah, just want to be sure.

Speaker 12 (01:31:14):
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:31:14):
It could be r T S r I G h
T S.

Speaker 2 (01:31:18):
Exactly like over audio. You just don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:31:20):
Yeah, yep, cool James. Well we'll touch base who knows when,
hopefully soon. Take care and happy Thanksgiving.

Speaker 2 (01:31:29):
Absolutely, Thank you, Wade, I appreciate it. Happy Thanksgiving all
the listeners too.

Speaker 1 (01:31:33):
Absolutely if you missed it earlier. Just a reminder, we're

(01:31:55):
running our second VIP sale of the year. We don't
do these often, take advantage of it now. It is
a limited time offer. Take nine dollars off a VIP
subscription a one month, three month, or one year sub
It brings the one month sub down to just three
dollars in ninety nine cents. The coupon code is n
O V twenty twenty five as in November Nov twenty
twenty five, and that takes nine dollars off. When you

(01:32:16):
check out on our signup form pw torch dot com
slash Go VIP gives you full details on membership benefits
and links to our sign up form. Invite you to
email the show with feedback or questions or comments. That
email address is Wade Keller Podcast at pwtorch dot com.
That's Wadekeller podcast at pw torch dot com. Also welcome

(01:32:36):
your feedback on Twitter. You can follow us on Twitter
at pw torch and follow me at the Wadekeller. That's
at PW Torch and at the Wade Keller.

Speaker 13 (01:32:48):
Searchings for more great pro wrestling talk, then join me
Jason Powell host them the three weekly Pro Wrestling Boom Podcast.
Each week you'll hear the latest news and analysis from
me and my team at Pro Wrestling dot Man along
with other pro wrestling media members. Plus, the Pro Wrestling
Boom Podcast features long form interviews with notable names in
the pro wrestling industry. Subscribe and Itunestitcher, downcast, and all

(01:33:09):
your favorite secondary apps, or visit us directly at PW
boom dot com. Once again, that's pw boom dot com.

Speaker 1 (01:33:19):
Thanks for listening to our podcast. Did you know we
also have a website pwtorch dot com. Daily news updates, editorials,
and my live TV coverage covering Raw, Dynamite and SmackDown
and my live pay per view coverage for WWE and AEW.
Create a tab or bookmark, make it a daily stop.
Visit us throughout the day every day to keep up
on breaking news and more. That's pwtorch dot com.

Speaker 5 (01:33:42):
Meet an extra dose of positivity in your wrestling podcasts.
Will come join me Alan fourrel Over in the Progress
Paradise at pewtorch VIP as we mask on the bright
side of wrestling and focus on some of the great
matches and shows from around the world, be it US,
Japan and Europe or Mexico. There's always a place for

(01:34:03):
rest in past in the Paradise too, and we've done
fun historical shows such as the We Love Liger series
celebrating the glorious career of Jusian Thunderliger and our Eye
Was There When shows where our guests will join me
to talk about a classic bout that they were in
attendance for. We love variety and you can expect lots
of it at the Progress Paradise. Detailed PW tors VIP

(01:34:25):
subscription information and a list of all the VIP benefits
is available at pww torch vip info dot com. And yes,
all VIP podcasts are compatible with popular podcast apps on
iPhone and Android devices, or you can stream them directly
from our ad free VIP mobile site.

Speaker 1 (01:34:43):
See you in the Paradise. One way that you can
help us sustain our schedule of putting out podcasts throughout
the week is by giving us a five star rating
on Apple Podcasts. Just go to Apple Podcasts and look
for our Weight Keller Prosing podcast and Weight Keller Prossing
post show and give us a five star rating. You
think we've earned that score with our fast turnaround times
and our quantity and quality of wrestling analysis throughout the week.

(01:35:07):
So take a moment out for us and do us
favor and give us a five star rating and Apple Podcasts.
That helps us on search returns and helps us grow.
And if you want, you can add a few comments
about what you like about the programs in the comments section.
Thank you so much.

Speaker 14 (01:35:23):
In twenty twelve, NXT transitioned into the developmental system and
ultimately the brand you see today. On the Torch VIP
podcast NXT eight years Back, we'll be taking a weekly
look at this page in NXT's early history.

Speaker 12 (01:35:38):
Join Kelly Wells and me Tom Stout from PWT Talks
NXT every Saturday as we go eight years back to
the day to track NXT's rising talents and why they
did or didn't work out exclusively for PW Torch VIP members.

Speaker 1 (01:35:52):
PW Torch VIP membership doesn't just give you add free
access to these shows and a ton of other VIP
exclusive podcasts throughout the week, but you also gain access
to our unmatched vast library of wrestling history, our contemporaneous
week to week coverage through our progressing Torch weekly newsletters
dating back to the late nineteen eighties, along with streaming
and download access to hundreds of retro radio shows from
the nineteen nineties, including some of my interviews with wrestling's

(01:36:15):
top newsmakers in the nineties, and also our podcast library
dating back to the year two thousand and three. There's
no larger, longer spanning pro wrestling podcast library than that
that comes with a PW Torch VIP membership. Now approaching
twenty years of podcasting, Go vip and dive into our
post pay per view roundtables are covered with some of
your favorite eras of wrestling, top name long form interviews,

(01:36:38):
and special format podcasts that we've done throughout the years.
PW torch dot com slash go vip. We have a
streamline signup form and you can pay with PayPal or
directly with your credit card or debit card. In one
or two minutes from right now, you can be a
VIP member and diving into our library. PW torch dot
com slash go VIP

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

Betrayal: Weekly

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}5 YRS AGO FLAGSHIP: Keller & Caldwell talk Reigns as a heel, McMahon's future, AEW's start, Jericho-MJF ski, more

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

Betrayal: Weekly

All Episodes

5 YRS AGO FLAGSHIP: Keller & Caldwell talk Reigns as a heel, McMahon's future, AEW's start, Jericho-MJF ski, more

Stuff You Should Know