In this week’s Flagship Flashback episode of the Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast from five years ago (12-8-2020), PWTorch editor Wade Keller presented a special Top Guy Tuesday edition of the Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast with guest co-host PWTorch's Rich Fann. They review in depth the top World Championship reigns on WWE Raw, WWE Smackdown, AEW Dynamite, and New Japan with a lengthy focus on Drew McIntyre, Roman Reigns, Kenny Omega, and Tetsuya Naito including a discussion on their strengths and weaknesses that could determine whether they hold the titles well into 2021, and if they didn't, who were the top options to take the titles from them.
Then, in the previously VIP-exclusive Aftershow, they discussed NXT, MLW, Impact, and ROH.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/wade-keller-pro-wrestling-podcast--3076978/support.
Then, in the previously VIP-exclusive Aftershow, they discussed NXT, MLW, Impact, and ROH.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/wade-keller-pro-wrestling-podcast--3076978/support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
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Now. Pw Torch and Spreaker bring you the Wade Killer
Pro Wrestling Podcast five years ago.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
This week on the flagship Rich Fan joined me for
a special episode themed Top Guy Tuesday, and no, it
was not just about FTR. Instead, we looked at the
top champions on WWB, Raw, SmackDown, AW and NEUJA, which
at that time was Drew McIntyre, Roman Rains, keny Omega
and to tsuya Aido, and we looked at their strengths
and weaknesses that could determine whether they held the titles
(02:08):
well into twenty twenty one, and if they didn't, who
were the top options to take the titles from them. Also,
in the VP exclusive after show, we talked about other
topics such as nxt MLW, Impact and ROH So let's
get to it. This originally dropped on December eighth, twenty twenty,
and it is today's Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast Five
years Ago Flakeship Flashback for Wednesday, December tenth, twenty twenty five.
(02:34):
Coming off of the AW World title changed last week
and the solidifying right now of Drew McIntyre and Roman
Reigns is the top two guys in WWE and Finn
Balor on Sunday Nights saying you know Wednesday Nights are
going to shift back to being about him.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
I want to talk today about top guys.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
In the lay of the land in WWE, nxt AW, Impact, ROHMLW,
New Japan, and look at the year twenty twenty and
the journey that the companies have been on with COVID
changing their schedules and talk about how wrestlers have had
to adjust to getting pushed or being a top act
without a crowd to play off of to refine their act.
(03:14):
Let's begin by talking about Drew McIntyre and Roman reigns
to be one of the top stories of the year
is that brock Lesner has been gone most of the
year now and they've really shifted to Drew McIntyre and
Roman Reigns as their clear cut top two stars. And
you have Seth Rowlins, who has been in that conversation
(03:35):
for a while for years, but he's on paternity leave
and even in general he had been leapfrogged by Drew
and Roman. Roman with a bit of a surprise later
in the year Drew, of course christened at WrestleMania.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
What do you think of these.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
Top two stars in the journey that they've taken, and
how do you evaluate you first Drew and then Roman
in terms of establishing themselves as sort of this generation
or this era's top two wwbe top guys.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
I think it's interesting because when you start with when
you start with Drew, his path and his being, whether
it was his interview did with you a couple of
years ago as he was coming on the way back
to WWEU, and then you look in the mirror and
the rearview mirror of twenty twenty now and kind of
see where he is. The one thing he talked about was.
I wanted to have this opportunity to prove after I
(04:25):
got fired, I deserve to be there and I deserved
the spot I was told I could get, and I
think he did that during this pandemic, and sadly he
did it with no fans. I thought one of the
strangest asterisks to the Drew McIntyre experience being elevated to
the co guy had been the fact he got his coronation,
his christening with no fans and you had to pump
(04:47):
in what audio you wanted to hear. And I felt
like in any other time in history that might have
been a disservice to him, but I think he earned it,
whether it was his emoting and his promos to the
audience camera wise, or his matches with despite the fans,
and then later Thunderdome and everything that came with it,
he really rose to the occasion and gave all he
(05:10):
had to make sure he was in that position. And
obviously the Randy Orton feud was a great way to
show him in the air of this is I'm here.
I deserve to be here, and I've done the things
that you, necessarily Randy haven't.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
And Randy has.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
Always owned it and said I don't need to, and
so that also gave him that dichotomy and then into
Roman and that was you know, whether it was his
surprise reappearance, his alliance with Paul Hayman, the seat at
the table, these two guys have really been the yend
to each other's yang in terms of fan interaction, overness
(05:45):
and matches match drama, and even now on this past Monday,
him you know, in the kilt, adding the kilt as
another flavor. In any other time in his career, I
would see that as a silly Vince McMahon thing, not
too dissimilar really from Seamus having to tell the stories
about his grandfather in Ireland and how that just kind
of died of death when he was champion. But he
(06:07):
makes it work. And that's the one thing I can
say about Drew. He will make whatever you give him work.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
When you compare Drew to past top stars, either ones
that succeeded or ones that ended up sort of at
the next level, either because they had limitations or because
somebody else just was around who was a bigger deal
at that time. So there's kind of the John Cena class.
Then there's the next level down in terms of sustained
push and main events and how much Vincent leaned on
(06:34):
him like Edge and Batista, or you go back to
Bratt Hart and Shawn Michaels or his attempts to go
with Sid or Diesel. Where is Drew in there? He's
not Stone called Steve Austin or the Rock. I don't
predict he will be. He's older than both of them
by a good distance now then they were at their peak,
so he's taken a longer road to get to this point.
(06:55):
It's weird that both he and Roman are within a
month of age of each other.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
Too.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
It makes discussions like this, I think more interesting because
they're just so the same generation but have such different
approaches and paths that they've taken.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
To get here. Where is Drew and what are his
strengths and weaknesses?
Speaker 1 (07:09):
If you're you know, a top creative person with w
B sitting around with vinsick Man and you guys are
trying to figure out, you know, what do we do
to maximize Drew and where are his limitations? How do
you personally evaluate him in that way?
Speaker 3 (07:23):
I see Drew. If I was looking at the generations,
I wouldn't put him. I put him almost in breadth.
He's kind of a cross between say a Brett Hart
and the way they handled Bob Beckland's lunatic run as
champion before he transitioned to Diesel. I say that because
(07:43):
Drew is a guy who I think, and again I
keep using this with Drew, but I think it's very
appropriate in any other situation. I would say Drew takes
himself too seriously for a lot of folks in the brass,
and he takes himself seriously because he wants to be
a serious wrestler. Again, going back to that interview he
did with you, sometimes joking in the back, associating with people,
making yourself available at a comedic fashion can hurt you more
(08:05):
than help you in terms of might get you that
screen time, but it's going to take down their respect
a couple of notches. And so I think Drew is
that type of wrestler. And if you want to sell
a pro wrestler, he's gonna do it. Obviously, like I
said a few minutes ago, they're adding the sports entertaining
things like giving him the killed having him kind of
pile it up a little bit, and that's fine, but
(08:26):
I think even when he was doing the three two one,
even when he had the maybe you remember it, wait,
but I tried to burn it out of my memory.
Whatever that nickname was. He was like the sexy Scotsman
or something like that. Yes, yep, he still he would
do it, and he would do it in a way
where you know there were champions if.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
You look, you know you mentioned WWE.
Speaker 3 (08:45):
I also tried to cheat and look at Impact when
they had some of their champions or XWW guys who
were there for a check. He wasn't holding his nose
when he did that. He wasn't holding his nose when
he did the three two one. He did it, he
made it earnest, he got people over or got it
over in people behind it. I think, and like you said,
with the fact that him and Roman are so close
(09:06):
in age, it's it is a fair It's almost like
a football draft class where you can look at different
teams and how their quarterbacks kind of evolved. And I
think in the case that Drew he would be that. Yeah,
I think he'd be that Brett hart Ish champion where
he's going to be the guy that takes the company series,
puts it on his back.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
Just plow forward.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
He might be dynamic enough if you're thinking like the
full Brett Hart Brett Got, Lonesome Dove and all those
other shows. If this was outside of a pandemic environment,
I'm sure Drew would be a guest star on a
show or something that was in the Universal family because
he has that look, He has that kind of gravitas
and he looks like a grown man, and that there's
(09:46):
always room for that in terms of like that role
in camp and shows, even if he is a bit
bigger than the traditional actor. So that also actually, and
I say that I'd had a little bit of Batista
in there too, because he does fit that mold of
He fits until they won't fit him, and I'm hoping
that that doesn't happen anytime soon.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
Yeah, Yeah, do you expect based on the lay of
the land with the talent in the pipeline in NXT.
I don't think there's really projected free agents that they
would sign that would pro factor into this answer. But
you know, if you think of some unfair enough where
you think Drew, is that there's a threat to Drew
being the co top star with Roman reigns. Is there
(10:26):
somebody out there that would be a weekend and week out.
I'm not saying a special appearance for Brock or anything,
but I mean a guy's going to be the weekly fixture, centerpiece, lead,
babyface or heel type act. Worse, Drew would end up
being moved down a notch. Is that in the next
three years something you would imagine, whether it's somebody in
NXT or other.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
No, I'm looking at the lay of the land, especially
as long as Vince is going to be the person
that finally rubber stamp is the final rubber stamp of it.
He is a bigger for lack of a better freight,
He's a bigger Seth Rollins and I know you and
Bruce mentioned for years the head cuts, the bears the
similarities to some of the restlers at the top of
the card. Because of that, he's able to carry everything
(11:08):
Seth did. But he's just a bigger guy, so he
already looks physically imposed. He can do three to five
segments a show. He can wrestle weekend with out, and
you don't have to worry about him being injured or
at least not being able to fight through the injuries.
And I think in terms of match quality. He hasn't disappointed.
His matches might not be five star spectacles, but they
don't need to be. He's a functional world champion pro
(11:30):
wrestler and that's all you need in that main event scene.
And he's not looking to steal any more fans. He's
got him. And when you look at the NXT roster
and folks coming down that pipeline, I can't see anyone
that can. If anything, it's almost a bit of an indictment.
And I'm sure we can get into that later that
the only person that could probably still television time from
him is pet mccaffield.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
Yes, yes, well, And like I was thinking as I
asked the question and you started answering it, if Keith
Lee and Matt Riddle were still on NXT, I'd say, oh, well,
maybe one of those two could be, you know, a
threat to Drew. If Drew stumbled a little or he
got hurt, they lost faith in him and they had
to go someone else, you know, who could catch fire.
And you know, if Riddle and Keith Lee had not
(12:13):
been called up yet, you go, well, those are probably
two of the top guys. But given the way that
Riddle has been portrayed right now. You know, I think
Vince might like Matt Riddle, but he might like him
in a way that is very different than what people
projected his upside was. And Riddle also is a mid
thirties guy, so you know, it's not like, oh, you know,
it's a long term project.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
This is who Vince sees him as. Keith Lee, I
think is.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
Probably you know, among people on the on the main
roster right now, I don't know if there's would you
have anybody above him as again, somebody who wouldn't be
seen as a long term project. But if Drew went down,
Vince like, oh god, what do I do? You know,
do I just go with like an ag again, or
(12:55):
you know, try to talk Daniel Bryan into maybe being
full time for a while. For me, like would go
with Keith Lee before say Kevin Owens or repushing Jeff
Hardy to the top or Gimming Abartee or.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
Somebody like a mega push.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
I mean, the only other guy I guess I went
throw out there, but he's in his forties, would be
lastly a sort of a short term band aid. But
so yeah, just that's me kind of talking through the
someone Keith Lee and someone who might leapfrog him on
those options. And I don't give them a great grade
for Keith Lee so far, but I think he's less
defined down than Riddle so far.
Speaker 3 (13:30):
Yeah, I agree, And I think especially for those of
the folks listening, I would strongly recommend if you haven't
are ready, to watch that WWE documentary on Keith Lee.
Because I was on the Fitness to be honest weight,
I thought that they have, you know, affection form, but
maybe they see maybe he's too old, or they want
to do some other things with him. But watching that
documentary the way they posited it, it was not too
(13:52):
dissimilar from when Seth Rollins came back from his injury,
and they were kind of tone deaf when people see
this man pulling himself back and then you bring them
back and you have them, you know, as you and
Travis were there in New Jersey getting booed or or
getting cheered with love, and then they have them come
back as a heel. With Keith Lee, I thought it
was just going to be some problem about his journey
(14:12):
and they when they needed to, they put the screws
to how much it hurt for him to try to
do this and try to make it and not get
the yes you wanted. And so he has that story
built in. He has the opportunity whenever they want to
hit that switch to say this is a guy who
it's similar to Drew. He's had some missteps, He's only
(14:33):
just wanted that shot and what happens when he gets it.
And I think that's a very easy thing for.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
Them to sell.
Speaker 3 (14:37):
And they already have the foil that has always been
the foil the last six to ten years when you
need a face to get over, and that's Randy Orton
to be the person to stand in his way to
get it.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
And they already give him win over Randy as a backstory.
You know, they planted that.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
Seat and I don't know if they did it with
the you know, I don't know. I mean, Vince's hard
to figure out in terms of long term planning versus
a whim and it's it's I think it's hard to figure
out because I think he plans TV shows the afternoon
of the TV show, rewriting them. But I also think
he definitely, I should say definitely he It has to
be in the realm of consideration that when something happens
and you don't understand he is doing it because he
(15:12):
thinks I might want to play that card in six
to twelve or even fifteen months from now, and it's
you know, part of the fun of trying to figure
out Vince's booking is which is which?
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Is it a random and a whim.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
Or is it I might play this hand sometime I
might not, but I've given him a win and this
is a card I can play later.
Speaker 3 (15:31):
Yeah, and that's always good to have in that highlight package.
You can cut to it and instantly you got the
feud and Randy will be able to sell that. That's
the best thing about having a Randy Ordon for bitter Ill.
When he's on and he knows he has a job
to do. He very few people in that company do
that job well.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
Anytime you're watching ww E Raw or SmackDown or aw
Dynamite in particular, send us an email if you've got
thoughts on the show or a topic you want us
to address, or a question for us. Wadkeller Podcast at
pwtorch dot com. Weadkeller Podcast at pewtorch dot com. If
there's anything else going on in pro wrestling that you
want us to address on our main podcast during our
(16:11):
mailbank segments. That same email applies Wadkeller Podcast at pwtorch
dot com. We invite that interaction. Let us know what
you think of what we're saying, and let us know
what you want us to talk about and ask us
specific questions. Weadkeller Podcast at pwtorch dot com. All right, Rich, well,
(16:33):
let's pause and set the table. Introduce the show. This
is the weight Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast for Tuesday, December eighth,
twenty twenty. I'm way Keller, editor and publisher of the
Pro Wrestling Torch weekly newsletter pwtorch dot com, host of this,
the Weykeller Progressing Podcast and Weightkeller Progressing Post shows. Those
are separate feeds, so be sure you're subscribing to both.
(16:54):
Just search Weaightkeller on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen
to podcasts and subscribe to both. The red logo and
the Blue logo both updated throughout the week with new
shows and fresh material, and I'm joined by Rich Fan
from the PW Torch East Coast Cast VIP version and
the p Torch Daily Cast Saturday Deep Dive. It also
(17:16):
helps out a lot with Podewtorch dot com, Newspan coverage,
and some VIP roundtable shows. Rich, Great to have you
in the co host chair today as we focus on
the year twenty twenty, your review series of shows we'll
probably be doing in different formats here focused on top
guys in the top promotions and how the year has
(17:37):
gone so far. We'll weave our way through different companies.
But great to have you back.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
Yeah, great to be here. Looking forward to talking about
these top folks and seeing how they went in twenty twenty.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
Tell people about your podcasts and also how they can
follow you on social media, and then we'll get on
with our discussion after that.
Speaker 3 (17:55):
Sure, so you can follow me on Twitter at Rich
Underscore fan FA and n usually talking about everything basically wrestling, life, sports, politics,
you name it, and that kind of dives into the
first show I do, which is the East Coast Cast
PW Torchese COASTCASVP with Travis Bryant. We are not minivan
living room, family room Dan friendly. Travis usually uses a
(18:16):
lot of salty language and I usually have to yell
at him a lot for it. And during that show though,
it's myself and Travis talking about wrestling life books I'm
reading or listening to Travis listens to and just kind
of going over whatever this the Wednesday night wars quote
unquote have brought us. I review with Travis and kind
(18:36):
of talked to the storylines of MLW, Fusion, AW Dynamite,
n NXT shows, and then we just talk about what's
been going on for the week. Additionally, I do the
PW Torch Daily cast as way it said, the Deep
Dive with Rich Fan that's typically an hour or more
where I have a co host or co host and
we just teach through one subject. For instance, two weeks ago,
(18:59):
I had on James McNicholas of the Athletic, who is
one of their top Arsenal football club reporters who's also
a pro wrestling fan that listens to the Torch and
listens to some of our shows, and he talked about
being a reporter in a soccer environment and how that
differs from wrestling his wrestling fandom, and also how he
(19:19):
doesn't necessarily have access to owners and we have the
common denominator of a Tony Kahan. You know, if there's
a Fulham Arsenal match, you could talk to Tony Kahmen.
When you're in aw you could talk to Tony Khan.
But when it comes to wrestling promoters writ largs, there's
usually a bit of a wall, and so talking about
that wall both in ownership of wrestling and soccer was
an interesting thing to talk about, as well as what
(19:41):
soccer players he thought could ever wrestle and all that
fun stuff. And I also help out, like Wade said,
with the roundtables, particularly New Japan, and I am usually
the co captain of my dear friend Sean Radikin's Radickin
Worldwide where we talk about New Japan independent wrestling, And
if you get a chance, you can listen to Sean
talking with the Young Bucks on the PW Torch feed
(20:01):
right now if you're on the Patreon and or VP.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
Excellent, Thanks Rich.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
Let's uh, let's now pivot to more top guy discussion
here with with Drew McIntyre. If there were live crowds
right now, what would what where would he be in
terms of crowd reaction? And it's in it it's like
there's two tracks. What if there were crowds a whole time?
And then what if live crowds showed up next week?
You know, like because his character has got what might
(20:28):
have gone on a different course if they had crowds
the whole time. You know, he is working without that feedback.
No top wrestler has ever had to navigate being a
newly christened Top Top Guy with the world title belt
on the A Show.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
I mean, they're a one and are now.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
But without fan feedback to help guide them and correct
course and affirm things or sway them. And you know
you talked about Drew with the sexy Scotsman and now
he's got the kills and he's doing the sword bit
to set off Pyro on a stage entrance, and you
know they're refining thing with him, or he's trying different things,
showing a more loosey goosey side of his personality so
(21:05):
it doesn't seem super uptight, and yet at the same
time project himself as a big time star who should
be taken seriously. And he's having to do all of
this and we're watching it with no real feedback other
than overly amplified social media feedback if he pays attention
to that, and you can really get a bad read
on things from social media compared to a live produit
ticket paying fans. So where do you think Drew would
(21:28):
be if there were always crowds? And then where do
you think he'd be right now? If next week, you know,
the drinking water you know, had a vaccine and everyone
could just start going to shows tomorrow. How popular would
he be based on what he's done.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
I think he would be in that. I'm trying to
think of a good face that would match him. I
think he would be in the Kevin Owens tier. I
don't think he'd be, you know, the highest stage, Daniel Brian,
high stage, John scene, et cetera. But I think he'd
be in the Kevin Owens of solid respect for most
of the crowd. You wouldn't hear any ironic booze or
any people pushing back because he's been even up until
(22:03):
this point, this has been the closest they've gotten to
that Roman slash traditional top guy. Let's mess with him
for the sake of messing with him with these little additions.
I mean, Seamus is hurt and he came back and
he thinks he's in Peaky Blinders. Fine, but he's not
in the world title scene.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
Roman.
Speaker 3 (22:24):
You know, he's completely changed both his body and his gear.
He still has the same music, but he isn't doing silliness,
and I think Drew's towing that line, especially like you said,
the a show with Monday Night Raw. For most intents
and purposes, I watched SmackDown, and SmackDown has stories, and
Raw is what they call their variety show. And that's
(22:45):
how I've seen it, especially during this pandemic. SmackDown got
a little more serious. Raw got a little bit more
variety show. So I got that Drew had to be
a little bit more of the ring master and less
of the warrior. But I think the fans would have
a preciated that. And my one question would be would
they have tried to keep the three to one because
(23:07):
that was the last thing. If you remember, before the
fans left, they were trying to get over and it
had Yep.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
It's like the Shawn Michaels bootstomp before the before the
sweet Chin music.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
You don't get the.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
Crowd into it. It's not something you'd really want to
do if you were in a fight. You know, warn
your opponent you're about to do something. But you know,
we a lot for that, as pro wrestling fans or else.
We we have to peel off and go watch something else,
because that's just built in if you missed it earlier.
Just a reminder, we're running our second VIP sale of
the year. We don't do these often. Take advantage of
(23:37):
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dollars off a VIP subscription a one month, three month,
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nine dollars off when you check out on our sign
up form pw Torch dot com, slash go vip give
(23:59):
you full details on membership benefits and links to our
sign up form. Yeah, I was thinking kind of edge
Kurt Angle as a babyface, you know, like that level
of you know, we're really into you, but we're not.
It's not game changing, you know, it's not you know,
people nudging their their lapsed fan friends to oh you
(24:23):
got to see this Drew guy, like happened with a
say Stone called Steve.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
Austin or you know whatever.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
So yeah, and I I mean, Drew's doing a really
good job. Now from a from a just personal enjoyment
as a wrestling fan, in terms of promos and in
ring work, where do you is there any place where
you'd like to see Drew improver? Do you think he
is for a big babyface wrestler who's got some athleticism,
(24:50):
he can you know, kip Up, I mean he's he
shows that side of him off, but he's
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Now. Pw Torch and Spreaker bring you the Wade Killer
Pro Wrestling Podcast five years ago.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
This week on the flagship Rich Fan joined me for
a special episode themed Top Guy Tuesday, and no, it
was not just about FTR. Instead, we looked at the
top champions on WWB, Raw, SmackDown, AW and NEUJA, which
at that time was Drew McIntyre, Roman Rains, keny Omega
and to tsuya Aido, and we looked at their strengths
and weaknesses that could determine whether they held the titles
(02:08):
well into twenty twenty one, and if they didn't, who
were the top options to take the titles from them. Also,
in the VP exclusive after show, we talked about other
topics such as nxt MLW, Impact and ROH So let's
get to it. This originally dropped on December eighth, twenty twenty,
and it is today's Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast Five
years Ago Flakeship Flashback for Wednesday, December tenth, twenty twenty five.
(02:34):
Coming off of the AW World title changed last week
and the solidifying right now of Drew McIntyre and Roman
Reigns is the top two guys in WWE and Finn
Balor on Sunday Nights saying you know Wednesday Nights are
going to shift back to being about him.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
I want to talk today about top guys.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
In the lay of the land in WWE, nxt AW, Impact, ROHMLW,
New Japan, and look at the year twenty twenty and
the journey that the companies have been on with COVID
changing their schedules and talk about how wrestlers have had
to adjust to getting pushed or being a top act
without a crowd to play off of to refine their act.
(03:14):
Let's begin by talking about Drew McIntyre and Roman reigns
to be one of the top stories of the year
is that brock Lesner has been gone most of the
year now and they've really shifted to Drew McIntyre and
Roman Reigns as their clear cut top two stars. And
you have Seth Rowlins, who has been in that conversation
(03:35):
for a while for years, but he's on paternity leave
and even in general he had been leapfrogged by Drew
and Roman. Roman with a bit of a surprise later
in the year Drew, of course christened at WrestleMania.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
What do you think of these.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
Top two stars in the journey that they've taken, and
how do you evaluate you first Drew and then Roman
in terms of establishing themselves as sort of this generation
or this era's top two wwbe top guys.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
I think it's interesting because when you start with when
you start with Drew, his path and his being, whether
it was his interview did with you a couple of
years ago as he was coming on the way back
to WWEU, and then you look in the mirror and
the rearview mirror of twenty twenty now and kind of
see where he is. The one thing he talked about was.
I wanted to have this opportunity to prove after I
(04:25):
got fired, I deserve to be there and I deserved
the spot I was told I could get, and I
think he did that during this pandemic, and sadly he
did it with no fans. I thought one of the
strangest asterisks to the Drew McIntyre experience being elevated to
the co guy had been the fact he got his coronation,
his christening with no fans and you had to pump
(04:47):
in what audio you wanted to hear. And I felt
like in any other time in history that might have
been a disservice to him, but I think he earned it,
whether it was his emoting and his promos to the
audience camera wise, or his matches with despite the fans,
and then later Thunderdome and everything that came with it,
he really rose to the occasion and gave all he
(05:10):
had to make sure he was in that position. And
obviously the Randy Orton feud was a great way to
show him in the air of this is I'm here.
I deserve to be here, and I've done the things
that you, necessarily Randy haven't.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
And Randy has.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
Always owned it and said I don't need to, and
so that also gave him that dichotomy and then into
Roman and that was you know, whether it was his
surprise reappearance, his alliance with Paul Hayman, the seat at
the table, these two guys have really been the yend
to each other's yang in terms of fan interaction, overness
(05:45):
and matches match drama, and even now on this past Monday,
him you know, in the kilt, adding the kilt as
another flavor. In any other time in his career, I
would see that as a silly Vince McMahon thing, not
too dissimilar really from Seamus having to tell the stories
about his grandfather in Ireland and how that just kind
of died of death when he was champion. But he
(06:07):
makes it work. And that's the one thing I can
say about Drew. He will make whatever you give him work.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
When you compare Drew to past top stars, either ones
that succeeded or ones that ended up sort of at
the next level, either because they had limitations or because
somebody else just was around who was a bigger deal
at that time. So there's kind of the John Cena class.
Then there's the next level down in terms of sustained
push and main events and how much Vincent leaned on
(06:34):
him like Edge and Batista, or you go back to
Bratt Hart and Shawn Michaels or his attempts to go
with Sid or Diesel. Where is Drew in there? He's
not Stone called Steve Austin or the Rock. I don't
predict he will be. He's older than both of them
by a good distance now then they were at their peak,
so he's taken a longer road to get to this point.
(06:55):
It's weird that both he and Roman are within a
month of age of each other.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
Too.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
It makes discussions like this, I think more interesting because
they're just so the same generation but have such different
approaches and paths that they've taken.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
To get here. Where is Drew and what are his
strengths and weaknesses?
Speaker 1 (07:09):
If you're you know, a top creative person with w
B sitting around with vinsick Man and you guys are
trying to figure out, you know, what do we do
to maximize Drew and where are his limitations? How do
you personally evaluate him in that way?
Speaker 3 (07:23):
I see Drew. If I was looking at the generations,
I wouldn't put him. I put him almost in breadth.
He's kind of a cross between say a Brett Hart
and the way they handled Bob Beckland's lunatic run as
champion before he transitioned to Diesel. I say that because
(07:43):
Drew is a guy who I think, and again I
keep using this with Drew, but I think it's very
appropriate in any other situation. I would say Drew takes
himself too seriously for a lot of folks in the brass,
and he takes himself seriously because he wants to be
a serious wrestler. Again, going back to that interview he
did with you, sometimes joking in the back, associating with people,
making yourself available at a comedic fashion can hurt you more
(08:05):
than help you in terms of might get you that
screen time, but it's going to take down their respect
a couple of notches. And so I think Drew is
that type of wrestler. And if you want to sell
a pro wrestler, he's gonna do it. Obviously, like I
said a few minutes ago, they're adding the sports entertaining
things like giving him the killed having him kind of
pile it up a little bit, and that's fine, but
(08:26):
I think even when he was doing the three two one,
even when he had the maybe you remember it, wait,
but I tried to burn it out of my memory.
Whatever that nickname was. He was like the sexy Scotsman
or something like that. Yes, yep, he still he would
do it, and he would do it in a way
where you know there were champions if.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
You look, you know you mentioned WWE.
Speaker 3 (08:45):
I also tried to cheat and look at Impact when
they had some of their champions or XWW guys who
were there for a check. He wasn't holding his nose
when he did that. He wasn't holding his nose when
he did the three two one. He did it, he
made it earnest, he got people over or got it
over in people behind it. I think, and like you said,
with the fact that him and Roman are so close
(09:06):
in age, it's it is a fair It's almost like
a football draft class where you can look at different
teams and how their quarterbacks kind of evolved. And I
think in the case that Drew he would be that. Yeah,
I think he'd be that Brett hart Ish champion where
he's going to be the guy that takes the company series,
puts it on his back.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
Just plow forward.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
He might be dynamic enough if you're thinking like the
full Brett Hart Brett Got, Lonesome Dove and all those
other shows. If this was outside of a pandemic environment,
I'm sure Drew would be a guest star on a
show or something that was in the Universal family because
he has that look, He has that kind of gravitas
and he looks like a grown man, and that there's
(09:46):
always room for that in terms of like that role
in camp and shows, even if he is a bit
bigger than the traditional actor. So that also actually, and
I say that I'd had a little bit of Batista
in there too, because he does fit that mold of
He fits until they won't fit him, and I'm hoping
that that doesn't happen anytime soon.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
Yeah, Yeah, do you expect based on the lay of
the land with the talent in the pipeline in NXT.
I don't think there's really projected free agents that they
would sign that would pro factor into this answer. But
you know, if you think of some unfair enough where
you think Drew, is that there's a threat to Drew
being the co top star with Roman reigns. Is there
(10:26):
somebody out there that would be a weekend and week out.
I'm not saying a special appearance for Brock or anything,
but I mean a guy's going to be the weekly fixture, centerpiece, lead,
babyface or heel type act. Worse, Drew would end up
being moved down a notch. Is that in the next
three years something you would imagine, whether it's somebody in
NXT or other.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
No, I'm looking at the lay of the land, especially
as long as Vince is going to be the person
that finally rubber stamp is the final rubber stamp of it.
He is a bigger for lack of a better freight,
He's a bigger Seth Rollins and I know you and
Bruce mentioned for years the head cuts, the bears the
similarities to some of the restlers at the top of
the card. Because of that, he's able to carry everything
(11:08):
Seth did. But he's just a bigger guy, so he
already looks physically imposed. He can do three to five
segments a show. He can wrestle weekend with out, and
you don't have to worry about him being injured or
at least not being able to fight through the injuries.
And I think in terms of match quality. He hasn't disappointed.
His matches might not be five star spectacles, but they
don't need to be. He's a functional world champion pro
(11:30):
wrestler and that's all you need in that main event scene.
And he's not looking to steal any more fans. He's
got him. And when you look at the NXT roster
and folks coming down that pipeline, I can't see anyone
that can. If anything, it's almost a bit of an indictment.
And I'm sure we can get into that later that
the only person that could probably still television time from
him is pet mccaffield.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
Yes, yes, well, And like I was thinking as I
asked the question and you started answering it, if Keith
Lee and Matt Riddle were still on NXT, I'd say, oh, well,
maybe one of those two could be, you know, a
threat to Drew. If Drew stumbled a little or he
got hurt, they lost faith in him and they had
to go someone else, you know, who could catch fire.
And you know, if Riddle and Keith Lee had not
(12:13):
been called up yet, you go, well, those are probably
two of the top guys. But given the way that
Riddle has been portrayed right now. You know, I think
Vince might like Matt Riddle, but he might like him
in a way that is very different than what people
projected his upside was. And Riddle also is a mid
thirties guy, so you know, it's not like, oh, you know,
it's a long term project.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
This is who Vince sees him as. Keith Lee, I
think is.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
Probably you know, among people on the on the main
roster right now, I don't know if there's would you
have anybody above him as again, somebody who wouldn't be
seen as a long term project. But if Drew went down,
Vince like, oh god, what do I do? You know,
do I just go with like an ag again, or
(12:55):
you know, try to talk Daniel Bryan into maybe being
full time for a while. For me, like would go
with Keith Lee before say Kevin Owens or repushing Jeff
Hardy to the top or Gimming Abartee or.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
Somebody like a mega push.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
I mean, the only other guy I guess I went
throw out there, but he's in his forties, would be
lastly a sort of a short term band aid. But
so yeah, just that's me kind of talking through the
someone Keith Lee and someone who might leapfrog him on
those options. And I don't give them a great grade
for Keith Lee so far, but I think he's less
defined down than Riddle so far.
Speaker 3 (13:30):
Yeah, I agree, And I think especially for those of
the folks listening, I would strongly recommend if you haven't
are ready, to watch that WWE documentary on Keith Lee.
Because I was on the Fitness to be honest weight,
I thought that they have, you know, affection form, but
maybe they see maybe he's too old, or they want
to do some other things with him. But watching that
documentary the way they posited it, it was not too
(13:52):
dissimilar from when Seth Rollins came back from his injury,
and they were kind of tone deaf when people see
this man pulling himself back and then you bring them
back and you have them, you know, as you and
Travis were there in New Jersey getting booed or or
getting cheered with love, and then they have them come
back as a heel. With Keith Lee, I thought it
was just going to be some problem about his journey
(14:12):
and they when they needed to, they put the screws
to how much it hurt for him to try to
do this and try to make it and not get
the yes you wanted. And so he has that story
built in. He has the opportunity whenever they want to
hit that switch to say this is a guy who
it's similar to Drew. He's had some missteps, He's only
(14:33):
just wanted that shot and what happens when he gets it.
And I think that's a very easy thing for.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
Them to sell.
Speaker 3 (14:37):
And they already have the foil that has always been
the foil the last six to ten years when you
need a face to get over, and that's Randy Orton
to be the person to stand in his way to
get it.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
And they already give him win over Randy as a backstory.
You know, they planted that.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
Seat and I don't know if they did it with
the you know, I don't know. I mean, Vince's hard
to figure out in terms of long term planning versus
a whim and it's it's I think it's hard to figure
out because I think he plans TV shows the afternoon
of the TV show, rewriting them. But I also think
he definitely, I should say definitely he It has to
be in the realm of consideration that when something happens
and you don't understand he is doing it because he
(15:12):
thinks I might want to play that card in six
to twelve or even fifteen months from now, and it's
you know, part of the fun of trying to figure
out Vince's booking is which is which?
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Is it a random and a whim.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
Or is it I might play this hand sometime I
might not, but I've given him a win and this
is a card I can play later.
Speaker 3 (15:31):
Yeah, and that's always good to have in that highlight package.
You can cut to it and instantly you got the
feud and Randy will be able to sell that. That's
the best thing about having a Randy Ordon for bitter Ill.
When he's on and he knows he has a job
to do. He very few people in that company do
that job well.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
Anytime you're watching ww E Raw or SmackDown or aw
Dynamite in particular, send us an email if you've got
thoughts on the show or a topic you want us
to address, or a question for us. Wadkeller Podcast at
pwtorch dot com. Weadkeller Podcast at pewtorch dot com. If
there's anything else going on in pro wrestling that you
want us to address on our main podcast during our
(16:11):
mailbank segments. That same email applies Wadkeller Podcast at pwtorch
dot com. We invite that interaction. Let us know what
you think of what we're saying, and let us know
what you want us to talk about and ask us
specific questions. Weadkeller Podcast at pwtorch dot com. All right, Rich, well,
(16:33):
let's pause and set the table. Introduce the show. This
is the weight Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast for Tuesday, December eighth,
twenty twenty. I'm way Keller, editor and publisher of the
Pro Wrestling Torch weekly newsletter pwtorch dot com, host of this,
the Weykeller Progressing Podcast and Weightkeller Progressing Post shows. Those
are separate feeds, so be sure you're subscribing to both.
(16:54):
Just search Weaightkeller on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen
to podcasts and subscribe to both. The red logo and
the Blue logo both updated throughout the week with new
shows and fresh material, and I'm joined by Rich Fan
from the PW Torch East Coast Cast VIP version and
the p Torch Daily Cast Saturday Deep Dive. It also
(17:16):
helps out a lot with Podewtorch dot com, Newspan coverage,
and some VIP roundtable shows. Rich, Great to have you
in the co host chair today as we focus on
the year twenty twenty, your review series of shows we'll
probably be doing in different formats here focused on top
guys in the top promotions and how the year has
(17:37):
gone so far. We'll weave our way through different companies.
But great to have you back.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
Yeah, great to be here. Looking forward to talking about
these top folks and seeing how they went in twenty twenty.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
Tell people about your podcasts and also how they can
follow you on social media, and then we'll get on
with our discussion after that.
Speaker 3 (17:55):
Sure, so you can follow me on Twitter at Rich
Underscore fan FA and n usually talking about everything basically wrestling, life, sports, politics,
you name it, and that kind of dives into the
first show I do, which is the East Coast Cast
PW Torchese COASTCASVP with Travis Bryant. We are not minivan
living room, family room Dan friendly. Travis usually uses a
(18:16):
lot of salty language and I usually have to yell
at him a lot for it. And during that show though,
it's myself and Travis talking about wrestling life books I'm
reading or listening to Travis listens to and just kind
of going over whatever this the Wednesday night wars quote
unquote have brought us. I review with Travis and kind
(18:36):
of talked to the storylines of MLW, Fusion, AW Dynamite,
n NXT shows, and then we just talk about what's
been going on for the week. Additionally, I do the
PW Torch Daily cast as way it said, the Deep
Dive with Rich Fan that's typically an hour or more
where I have a co host or co host and
we just teach through one subject. For instance, two weeks ago,
(18:59):
I had on James McNicholas of the Athletic, who is
one of their top Arsenal football club reporters who's also
a pro wrestling fan that listens to the Torch and
listens to some of our shows, and he talked about
being a reporter in a soccer environment and how that
differs from wrestling his wrestling fandom, and also how he
(19:19):
doesn't necessarily have access to owners and we have the
common denominator of a Tony Kahan. You know, if there's
a Fulham Arsenal match, you could talk to Tony Kahmen.
When you're in aw you could talk to Tony Khan.
But when it comes to wrestling promoters writ largs, there's
usually a bit of a wall, and so talking about
that wall both in ownership of wrestling and soccer was
an interesting thing to talk about, as well as what
(19:41):
soccer players he thought could ever wrestle and all that
fun stuff. And I also help out, like Wade said,
with the roundtables, particularly New Japan, and I am usually
the co captain of my dear friend Sean Radikin's Radickin
Worldwide where we talk about New Japan independent wrestling, And
if you get a chance, you can listen to Sean
talking with the Young Bucks on the PW Torch feed
(20:01):
right now if you're on the Patreon and or VP.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
Excellent, Thanks Rich.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
Let's uh, let's now pivot to more top guy discussion
here with with Drew McIntyre. If there were live crowds
right now, what would what where would he be in
terms of crowd reaction? And it's in it it's like
there's two tracks. What if there were crowds a whole time?
And then what if live crowds showed up next week?
You know, like because his character has got what might
(20:28):
have gone on a different course if they had crowds
the whole time. You know, he is working without that feedback.
No top wrestler has ever had to navigate being a
newly christened Top Top Guy with the world title belt
on the A Show.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
I mean, they're a one and are now.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
But without fan feedback to help guide them and correct
course and affirm things or sway them. And you know
you talked about Drew with the sexy Scotsman and now
he's got the kills and he's doing the sword bit
to set off Pyro on a stage entrance, and you
know they're refining thing with him, or he's trying different things,
showing a more loosey goosey side of his personality so
(21:05):
it doesn't seem super uptight, and yet at the same
time project himself as a big time star who should
be taken seriously. And he's having to do all of
this and we're watching it with no real feedback other
than overly amplified social media feedback if he pays attention
to that, and you can really get a bad read
on things from social media compared to a live produit
ticket paying fans. So where do you think Drew would
(21:28):
be if there were always crowds? And then where do
you think he'd be right now? If next week, you know,
the drinking water you know, had a vaccine and everyone
could just start going to shows tomorrow. How popular would
he be based on what he's done.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
I think he would be in that. I'm trying to
think of a good face that would match him. I
think he would be in the Kevin Owens tier. I
don't think he'd be, you know, the highest stage, Daniel Brian,
high stage, John scene, et cetera. But I think he'd
be in the Kevin Owens of solid respect for most
of the crowd. You wouldn't hear any ironic booze or
any people pushing back because he's been even up until
(22:03):
this point, this has been the closest they've gotten to
that Roman slash traditional top guy. Let's mess with him
for the sake of messing with him with these little additions.
I mean, Seamus is hurt and he came back and
he thinks he's in Peaky Blinders. Fine, but he's not
in the world title scene.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
Roman.
Speaker 3 (22:24):
You know, he's completely changed both his body and his gear.
He still has the same music, but he isn't doing silliness,
and I think Drew's towing that line, especially like you said,
the a show with Monday Night Raw. For most intents
and purposes, I watched SmackDown, and SmackDown has stories, and
Raw is what they call their variety show. And that's
(22:45):
how I've seen it, especially during this pandemic. SmackDown got
a little more serious. Raw got a little bit more
variety show. So I got that Drew had to be
a little bit more of the ring master and less
of the warrior. But I think the fans would have
a preciated that. And my one question would be would
they have tried to keep the three to one because
(23:07):
that was the last thing. If you remember, before the
fans left, they were trying to get over and it
had Yep.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
It's like the Shawn Michaels bootstomp before the before the
sweet Chin music.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
You don't get the.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
Crowd into it. It's not something you'd really want to
do if you were in a fight. You know, warn
your opponent you're about to do something. But you know,
we a lot for that, as pro wrestling fans or else.
We we have to peel off and go watch something else,
because that's just built in if you missed it earlier.
Just a reminder, we're running our second VIP sale of
the year. We don't do these often. Take advantage of
(23:37):
it now. It is a limited time offer. Take nine
dollars off a VIP subscription a one month, three month,
or one year sub It brings the one month sub
down to just three dollars in ninety nine cents. The
coupon code is n o V twenty twenty five as
in November n V twenty twenty five, and that takes
nine dollars off when you check out on our sign
up form pw Torch dot com, slash go vip give
(23:59):
you full details on membership benefits and links to our
sign up form. Yeah, I was thinking kind of edge
Kurt Angle as a babyface, you know, like that level
of you know, we're really into you, but we're not.
It's not game changing, you know, it's not you know,
people nudging their their lapsed fan friends to oh you
(24:23):
got to see this Drew guy, like happened with a
say Stone called Steve.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
Austin or you know whatever.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
So yeah, and I I mean, Drew's doing a really
good job. Now from a from a just personal enjoyment
as a wrestling fan, in terms of promos and in
ring work, where do you is there any place where
you'd like to see Drew improver? Do you think he
is for a big babyface wrestler who's got some athleticism,
(24:50):
he can you know, kip Up, I mean he's he
shows that side of him off, but he's
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Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Betrayal: Weekly
Betrayal Weekly is back for a brand new season. Every Thursday, Betrayal Weekly shares first-hand accounts of broken trust, shocking deceptions, and the trail of destruction they leave behind. Hosted by Andrea Gunning, this weekly ongoing series digs into real-life stories of betrayal and the aftermath. From stories of double lives to dark discoveries, these are cautionary tales and accounts of resilience against all odds. From the producers of the critically acclaimed Betrayal series, Betrayal Weekly drops new episodes every Thursday. Please join our Substack for additional exclusive content, curated book recommendations and community discussions. Sign up FREE by clicking this link Beyond Betrayal Substack. Join our community dedicated to truth, resilience and healing. Your voice matters! Be a part of our Betrayal journey on Substack. And make sure to check out Seasons 1-4 of Betrayal, along with Betrayal Weekly Season 1.